Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 08, 2007, 05:37:32 PM
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My 13 YO daughter has been at sage walk for almost 60 days and she LOVES it. She has nothing but positive things to say about it. It's raised her self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things she never dreamed of doing. She loves the staff and even most of the food.
Just Reporting the Facts for those considering.
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My 13 YO daughter has been at sage walk for almost 60 days and she LOVES it. She has nothing but positive things to say about it. It's raised her self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things she never dreamed of doing. She loves the staff and even most of the food.
Just Reporting the Facts for those considering.
Good for her and for you. It is a big commitment, I know, and a huge step. I know exactly how you are feeling right now, its a great feeling isnt it? I have heard a lot of nice things about Sage Walk and know she is in good hands...... I am happy to hear she is doing well.
Thanks for sharing.
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My god.
There's bloodstains on her legs on the inside. She's not doing anything but crying now. I don't know if she was raped. She can't even talk right now. They told me she was doing well.
I've just called the police. This is from a cellphone.
I don't know what's going to happen next.
What was I thinking?
If you were a part of this WHO I swear to god I am going to have you incarcerated.
who the HELL registered "sunshinedaydream"???
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Ha,Ha,Ha, SunShineDaydream, welcome to fornits. I am only laughing because that is a new way to react to a positive post. Your daughters positive experience doesnt sit too well with most of the posters here, people get bashed for telling the truth here. Dont take the negative comments to heart.
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lol @ dueling fiction
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Sunshine, you'd do well to ignore Who.
He posts nasty messages (anonymously) and blames it on the good people of Fornits, so as to create the illusion that he is the good guy.
He's a shape-shifting troll extraordinaire.
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You have to get the rape reported or it will end up getting covered up like so many things over the years.
Then the next thing is to be there for your daughter. The unfortunately part is that the very treatment she need to come over it has been ruined by her experience at that place.
How can she ever trust psychological support from anyone in the business?
It doesn't matter whether the rape was done by a staff member or a teenager detained in the program. She should have been protected.
You will properly ask yourself why they have not called the police before you arrived. There are two good reasons for that.
1) All complains from the teenagers detained in such program will be regarded as manipulation.
2) Being able to treat all kind of problems according to their marketing, they properly believed that they could bury this "incident" deep inside her mind so there was nothing to tell, when she graduated.
Don't use time to understand why her letter sounded so happy during the course. All to many of the detained students at many program have over the years been told to rewrite letters, if they sounded too negative.
You will properly also blame yourself by letting her go to such a program, when there is programs out there which let parents go with them, so the treatment becomes shorter and more efficience because there is no filter of misunderstand when the progress / set-backs are reported through staff at the office.
But months ago, there was no Fornits Wiki page (http://http://www.fornits.com/wiki/index.php/Sagewalk) about this program.
So all you to go after was a TV program, which of course was heavily edited and included activities, which the program normally do not offer.
I don't know what made you choose this program and it is also not my business. But how did you bring her there? Did she go voluntary or do she now have to struggle with the memory of being forced to a place where she was raped?
If not addressed properly this feeling could end up being far worse for your relationship than the actual rape.
(I must say that it has been a bad year for Aspen with the boy who strangled slowly to death a Aspen Achievement Academy and the boy who died in pain isolated over night at Youth Care)
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My daughter is fine. I'm not sure what this rape thing is. I did a little more research then just watching the TV show. This experience will help her be the person she was meant to be. We are not bad parents. We just can't compete with all the things that are meant to suck kids into a life of consumerism. She's had an experience she couldn't have here. I will be very surprised to find out she is lying in her letters, her therapist is lying, her pictures are lying, etc.
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A lot of these people cannot stand to think that someone had a positive
experience or was helped by by a "program."
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My daughter is fine. I'm not sure what this rape thing is. I did a little more research then just watching the TV show. This experience will help her be the person she was meant to be. We are not bad parents. We just can't compete with all the things that are meant to suck kids into a life of consumerism. She's had an experience she couldn't have here. I will be very surprised to find out she is lying in her letters, her therapist is lying, her pictures are lying, etc.
It seems that the rape is false, but we have seen abuse so often (in police reports too) that it very well could be the bad experience of the week.
If she is fine, then use the honeymoon as the first months after a program is called to bond with her. 6 weeks banishment from the home are in my country regards as punishment for a kind of very severe crime. (Two 15 years old girls got 2 months prison to be served if they break the law in any way the next two years for kicking and beating a 14 year old year, so she was hospitalized for a week.)So I guess that she must have caused some violent domestic violence, you dont want to report to the authorities.
When she shuts down take her to the internet where she can talk with either this forum or members of the myspace group. You dont know what she went through, only other survivors know and they will like POW from Vietman or servicemen returning from Iraq keep a special bond.
See what a woman in her 30's wrote about her experience from her youth at another AEG program: Link (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aspen_Achievement_Academy#Yes.2C_I_felt_like_a_detainee)
That is what your daughter is going to dream about some 10 years from now.
You have in a way opened for Pandoras box. AEG's program has a high level of demand for aftercare as seen from this report (http://http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/wrc/Publications/doctor2.pdf) from the University of Idaho. Whatever fine result of the production order of a Stepford daughter they should create for you, it will be overshadowed in due time by issues created by the wilderness stay.
If she like Ali (http://http://www.63days.com/31-a-quick-skip-forward/) choose to sleep in another place either because she finds a roof claustrophobic or you did use a escort service so her own bed is no longer safe place, it will be minor issues.
Just enjoy that she is alive for a start and remember the honeymoon period. You dont know what kind of other children she has been together with and what kind of bad habbits she has learned from them
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My daughter is fine. I'm not sure what this rape thing is. I did a little more research then just watching the TV show. This experience will help her be the person she was meant to be. We are not bad parents. We just can't compete with all the things that are meant to suck kids into a life of consumerism. She's had an experience she couldn't have here. I will be very surprised to find out she is lying in her letters, her therapist is lying, her pictures are lying, etc.
So you set the example by hiring a very, very expensive contractor to which to outsource your parenting. Who exactly is overrun by consumerism? Your kid? Think again, shiftless consumerist parent, think again.
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Sunshinedaydream, don’t pay any attention to the negativity, its the world they live in. One of the people hounding you dropped out of their program after only a couple of months and now regrets it, cant get a job or pull his life together. So he gives everyone who is doing well in programs a hard time and bullies the parents.
Many here are just out to spoil your reunion with your daughter because they didn’t do well themselves.
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We have no such programs where I live unless you have broken the law severely. We have about 50 murders in our country per year out of a population of 5,000,000 people.
We have 1/10 of the share of the population in prison your country can achieve.
And we have a 16 year limit on buying alcohol. We have bag-parties (Parties where a bag with the childs name contains the amount of alcohol the parents have allowed the child to consume when God have given the permission to drink as a part of the confirmation in church (aged 13-14)) We have every town filled with Night Owls (Parents and other adults who voluntary guide teenagers in town)
As result of our policies the number of murders are down, the number of people killed in DUI related accidents are down, the number of teenage pregnancies are down and drugs have a strong compeditor in alcohol also making deaths caused by drugs something which reaches the frontpage of all newspapers when they happen.
So I have never been in a program. I live in a civilized country where you have to be convicted in court before being separeted from your familiy.
I am CIO in a business with 230 employees referring directly to the CEO. I have a house, car, 2 children and a cat.
So who are you speaking about?
Why do you have to be a part of a program in order to be a success?
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We have no such programs where I live unless you have broken the law severely. We have about 50 murders in our country per year out of a population of 5,000,000 people.
We have 1/10 of the share of the population in prison your country can achieve.
And we have a 16 year limit on buying alcohol. We have bag-parties (Parties where a bag with the childs name contains the amount of alcohol the parents have allowed the child to consume when God have given the permission to drink as a part of the confirmation in church (aged 13-14)) We have every town filled with Night Owls (Parents and other adults who voluntary guide teenagers in town)
As result of our policies the number of murders are down, the number of people killed in DUI related accidents are down, the number of teenage pregnancies are down and drugs have a strong compeditor in alcohol also making deaths caused by drugs something which reaches the frontpage of all newspapers when they happen.
So I have never been in a program. I live in a civilized country where you have to be convicted in court before being separeted from your familiy.
I am CIO in a business with 230 employees referring directly to the CEO. I have a house, car, 2 children and a cat.
So who are you speaking about?
Why do you have to be a part of a program in order to be a success?
You don’t need to attend a program to be successful in this country, although it may seem like it if you view our country thru fornits. An extremely small number of at-risk kids attend therapeutic schools and/or Wilderness. They are designed to give these kids a helping hand and get them back on track. It seems each country approaches the problem a little differently.
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that is'nt a real parent. I actually recognize this writing style. It's a very repetetive troll
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that is'nt a real parent. I actually recognize this writing style. It's a very repetetive troll
I agree, anon, its the same guy that jumps all over parents who post here about how well their kids are doing.. that is why the only ones left are the ones with negative views torwards these programs.
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As you know, child torturer, I am referring to "sunshinedreamâ€
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As you know, child torturer, I am referring to "sunshinedreamâ€
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As you know, child torturer, I am referring to "sunshinedreamâ€
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As you know, child torturer, I am referring to "sunshinedreamâ€
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As you know, child torturer, I am referring to "sunshinedreamâ€
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As you know, child torturer, I am referring to "sunshinedreamâ€
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As you know, child torturer, I am referring to "sunshinedreamâ€
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Because seeking out a forum for kids who were tortured by cults to post about the wonderful experience your kid had in a wilderness program is not something people do.
Becasue the "improved her self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things shes never dreamed of doing" statement is ludicrous.
Being abducted, and held prisoner, even going volentarily to camp, doesn't create such a reaction. I became a model and was featured in national magazines. Even that didn't "raise my self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things she never dreamed of doing." Unless this girl is high on cocaine, people do not have about faces that intense where their personailty changes completely for the better.
My 13 YO daughter has been at sage walk for almost 60 days and she LOVES it. She has nothing but positive things to say about it. It's raised her self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things she never dreamed of doing. She loves the staff and even most of the food.
Just Reporting the Facts for those considering.
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Have any kids died at sagewalk?
Any former torturers from another organization work there?
What info?
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well, i just found this
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21315 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21315)
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Because seeking out a forum for kids who were tortured by cults to post about the wonderful experience your kid had in a wilderness program is not something people do.
We don’t know if she did that or what forums she has posted on. If you asked her I bet she wouldn’t even know where to find a forum which talks about kids being tortured in cults, let alone wanting to post there. I know, as a parent, I would have no interest at all.
Becasue the "improved her self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things shes never dreamed of doing" statement is ludicrous. Being abducted, and held prisoner, even going volentarily to camp, doesn't create such a reaction.
Doesn’t sound like you know very much about Therapeutic schools or Wilderness programs because what the mother is describing is pretty much the norm.
I became a model and was featured in national magazines. Even that didn't "raise my self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things she never dreamed of doing." Unless this girl is high on cocaine, people do not have about faces that intense where their personailty changes completely for the better.
Being a model and on magazines does not raise your self esteem (working with these people you must know this). Actors, actresses, comediennes and models typically have low self esteem problems, especially models because models don’t feel they have accomplished anything personally, everything they have to show is genetically given to them so they don’t feel a sense of accomplishment. If a person was born with six fingers on one hand he may become famous and be featured on Jay Leno, but I don’t think this would gain him self esteem.
If you have ever seen a young kid start a fire from scratch for the first time and cook his/her own meal or help another hiker to conserve water you might know what the mother is talking about. These kids go thru a tremendous turnaround.
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Because seeking out a forum for kids who were tortured by cults to post about the wonderful experience your kid had in a wilderness program is not something people do.
We don’t know if she did that or what forums she has posted on. If you asked her I bet she wouldn’t even know where to find a forum which talks about kids being tortured in cults, let alone wanting to post there. I know, as a parent, I would have no interest at all.
Becasue the "improved her self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things shes never dreamed of doing" statement is ludicrous. Being abducted, and held prisoner, even going volentarily to camp, doesn't create such a reaction.
Doesn’t sound like you know very much about Therapeutic schools or Wilderness programs because what the mother is describing is pretty much the norm.
I became a model and was featured in national magazines. Even that didn't "raise my self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things she never dreamed of doing." Unless this girl is high on cocaine, people do not have about faces that intense where their personailty changes completely for the better.
Being a model and on magazines does not raise your self esteem (working with these people you must know this). Actors, actresses, comediennes and models typically have low self esteem problems, especially models because models don’t feel they have accomplished anything personally, everything they have to show is genetically given to them so they don’t feel a sense of accomplishment. If a person was born with six fingers on one hand he may become famous and be featured on Jay Leno, but I don’t think this would gain him self esteem.
If you have ever seen a young kid start a fire from scratch for the first time and cook his/her own meal or help another hiker to conserve water you might know what the mother is talking about. These kids go thru a tremendous turnaround.
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Yeah, being in magazines won't improve your self esteem, but learning how to start a fire from scratch will. Makes sense :roll:
Ok, how about this. I never had friends. Finally made one. Still my self esteem didn't rise by leaps and bounds this didn't "raised my self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things she never dreamed of doing"
I was seriously injured and unsure if I could walk again, I underwent a long bout of pt, went back to normal, basically. This didn't "raised my self esteem by leaps and bounds to accomplish things she never dreamed of doing" Yet, I was doing hard work to improve myself
Your personality can't be remade for the better in 60 days at a camp. It can't even be remade by finally having a friend after 13 years of isolation. A personality change of that nature is a ludicrous concept.
However, kids are told if they don’t renounce their former selves and show that they have lots of self esteem and have been saved, more or less, by the wilderness program, then they’ll go to a private prison where they will continue “treatmentâ€
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Yeah, being in magazines won't improve your self esteem, but learning how to start a fire from scratch will. Makes sense
Exactly Right!! Sounds like you would like to be in magazines…. If a person has been told they are pretty their entire lives and then final gets on the cover of a magazine it may not be a big deal. Take kid who has been hiking and fishing since they could remember… building a fire would not raise his self esteem.
But the models self esteem may be raised by leaps and bounds if she accomplished something outside her comfort zone like scoring high on her SATs. The boy who hiked a lot growing up may get a jolt from rebuilding a set of breaks, all by himself, on his first car.
For a person who didn’t have any friends for 13 years and then finally makes a good friend can raise your self esteem tremendously. Because it didn’t work out that way for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t for other people, there are many other factors which influence self esteem. There are kids who are suffering from depression and other conditions which may prevent them from fully benefitting.
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Show of hands, who else is just scrolling past his bullshit at this point?
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Show of hands, who else is just scrolling past his bullshit at this point?
I am, for one.... this is all opinion and the argument wont result in any type of consensus. But I think it was good for the readers to see some of the perspectives of the posters here and it shows how everyone’s self esteem is effected differently.
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Show of hands, who else is just scrolling past his bullshit at this point?
World class cellists are in their "comfort zone" when they give a televised recital, Why would they have "their self esteem raised" more by cooking a gourmet meal at 5 star Michelin restaurant? Achieving your goals is rewarding in a way that doing something that you are not interested in, but is outside your comfort zone, isn’t
On the other hand, being abducted and kept prisoner on the basis that you are not worthy of life outside an institution, prima facie, is something that will, undoubtedly, destroy your self esteem (and yes, you can have an institution outdoors….Many prisons, world wide are , tent cities)
And it’s interesting he says that conditions like depression mean you can’t have your “self esteem raised.â€
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Show of hands, who else is just scrolling past his bullshit at this point?
World class cellists are in their "comfort zone" when they give a televised recital, Why would they have "their self esteem raised" more by cooking a gourmet meal at 5 star Michelin restaurant? Achieving your goals is rewarding in a way that doing something that you are not interested in, but is outside your comfort zone, isn’t
On the other hand, being abducted and kept prisoner on the basis that you are not worthy of life outside an institution, prima facie, is something that will, undoubtedly, destroy your self esteem (and yes, you can have an institution outdoors….Many prisons, world wide are , tent cities)
And it’s interesting he says that conditions like depression mean you can’t have your “self esteem raised.â€
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I am not a troll. I just got back tonight and it WAS wonderful. She was NOT Tortured in any way. Her self esteem has improved Significantly. I am not into consumerism at all. I buy everything I can at thrift stores and reuse and recycle as much as I can. I am not a bad parent. Sage Walk was a place of significant integrety. I met one other family and their child was doing excellent also.
Of course we understand the honeymoon part. We've all worked hard to improve every aspect of our family. I couldn't do this at home because if you had kids you'd understand. My child wasn't "bad" She has friends (unlike you hahahah), It's just a tough world and is certainly better off to handle it now. She LOVED it there. I'd be happy to answer any specific questions, but don't give me the lines of logic. Your logic is twisted, therefor I don't want to hear it.
Thanks Who for standing up for me. I just wanted to put others minds at ease if they were thinking about the program or had a kid there. This site certainly scared me a little. I got over it. I also didn't have her kidnapped and she wasn't tortured. You just like that stuff don't you.
Sunshine daydream
(I just keep adding a number because I can't find the e-mail that is supposed to activate my account)
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I have two. I understand the dangers.
Some kids are not content with the number of bagsparties and they get access to alcohol from older buddies and then they party in a park outside my home, so I have off-course notified the night owls (http://http://www.natteravnene.dk/files/engelsk_folder_om_natteravnene.pdf) that there are a new unofficial party place, so they can monitor the activities from distance.
I will join the night owls myself once my oldest daughter has been confirmed in church and have been blessed to drink alcohol by God according with our traditions and culture. There will always be a period of dialogue and setting up boundaries in this difficult time until they can buy all the alcohol they wish to, once they have reached the age of 16 and can apply for their alcohol license down at the city hall.
I hope that you understand that the work is ahead of you and not behind you. It has just started and if I have to find a single good thing about what you did, it is the fact that you state that you brought her to the program on your own. That can the little factor that could result in one of the few success-stories over time.
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I am not a troll. I just got back tonight and it WAS wonderful. She was NOT Tortured in any way. Her self esteem has improved Significantly. I am not into consumerism at all. I buy everything I can at thrift stores and reuse and recycle as much as I can. I am not a bad parent. Sage Walk was a place of significant integrety. I met one other family and their child was doing excellent also.
Of course we understand the honeymoon part. We've all worked hard to improve every aspect of our family. I couldn't do this at home because if you had kids you'd understand. My child wasn't "bad" She has friends (unlike you hahahah), It's just a tough world and is certainly better off to handle it now. She LOVED it there. I'd be happy to answer any specific questions, but don't give me the lines of logic. Your logic is twisted, therefor I don't want to hear it.
Thanks Who for standing up for me. I just wanted to put others minds at ease if they were thinking about the program or had a kid there. This site certainly scared me a little. I got over it. I also didn't have her kidnapped and she wasn't tortured. You just like that stuff don't you.
Sunshine daydream
(I just keep adding a number because I can't find the e-mail that is supposed to activate my account)
I think parents can spell at a second grade level, put across thoughts in a fashion that isn’t completely convoluted, and don't mock teen girls for not having friends "She has friends (unlike you hahahah)"
Like I said, a troll
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I have a few genuine questions assuming that this is not a troll post.
If it was not for misbehavior why did you send your daughter to Sagewalk?
Were you aware that Sagewalk at one stage employed the Henry family from Northstar (the program that killed Aaron Bacon) If so did this have any effect on your decision?
How did you come across sagewalk?
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I am not a troll. I just got back tonight and it WAS wonderful. She was NOT Tortured in any way. Her self esteem has improved Significantly. I am not into consumerism at all. I buy everything I can at thrift stores and reuse and recycle as much as I can. I am not a bad parent. Sage Walk was a place of significant integrety. I met one other family and their child was doing excellent also.
Of course we understand the honeymoon part. We've all worked hard to improve every aspect of our family. I couldn't do this at home because if you had kids you'd understand. My child wasn't "bad" She has friends (unlike you hahahah), It's just a tough world and is certainly better off to handle it now. She LOVED it there. I'd be happy to answer any specific questions, but don't give me the lines of logic. Your logic is twisted, therefor I don't want to hear it.
Thanks Who for standing up for me. I just wanted to put others minds at ease if they were thinking about the program or had a kid there. This site certainly scared me a little. I got over it. I also didn't have her kidnapped and she wasn't tortured. You just like that stuff don't you.
Sunshine daydream
(I just keep adding a number because I can't find the e-mail that is supposed to activate my account)
Happy to hear you all are home again. I tell parents not to get swayed by all the definitions used here, they are mostly kids who didnt do well in a program and/or angry at their parents.
Kidnapping, torture, abuse, incarceration, imprisonment etc.
The definitions have all been watered down to the point where they don’t really mean much anymore here. I have traveled extensively throughout Eastern Europe and South Central Asia and have seen children being abused and hearing accounts of torture that would make you sick. Children (little girls and boys) who are handicapped, disfigured or have subpar IQ’s are locked in asylums with adults to fend for themselves from age 5 and up when they are forced to leave the Baby houses because no one wanted to adopt them. A large percentage of these children fail to thrive due to lack of social contact or malnutrition because the adults take the food from them for themselves and they are not strong enough to fight back.
To experience all this and then to listen to people here on fornits write how they consider not having access to a phone 24/7 or no salt on the table during meal time as abusive and living in a boarding school setting as being imprisoned or incarcerated, defining having to clean their rooms and common areas as torture really does an injustice to those who truly are in need of rescue.
Someday some poor child is going to actually be abused in one of these places, call the police and no one will believe them because of the stories that are told here on fornits.
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Someday some poor child is going to actually be abused in one of these places, call the police and no one will believe them because of the stories that are told here on fornits.
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Fornits is not needed for that.
It happened before Fornits existed, it happens every weeks and unfortunately it will continue to happen without heavy federal regulation of the industry.
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I have traveled extensively throughout Eastern Europe
Bullshit. You haven't been out of North America, SunshineDaydream is really obviously another one of your imaginary friends (you *can't* mask your writing style, seriously- you're just too insane to imitate a normal person), and Sagewalk is a torture pit that's failing so miserably you feel it necessary to post crap on Fornits to try to stem the damage (like putting a band-aid on a massive concrete dam crack).
As for Eastern Europe, that idea is exceptionally easy to destroy: Remember when WWASPS thought they could keep a shithole open in the Czech Republic? The Czechs closed the fucking place down because WWASPS reminded them so strongly of Soviet torture camps. So no, it's not accepted there, despite how badly you want child torture to be accepted everywhere.
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According to TheWho, the following is "just stories" and/or not abuse.
J
He had two major depressions by the time he was 14; he was a ?different? and musically gifted child who was bullied. As a defense, he started dressing like a Goth and hanging out with Goths?he had a lot of suicidal ideation. The public high school would not keep him because of his suicidal talk and when he got to the ER, he denied suicidal ideation. It was a mess and I wanted him supervised 24/7 BUT not in a hospital short term because he had long-term problems that he needed time to address. Someone in the posts above suggested a ?regular? boarding school?none would have taken a Goth who talked about the desirability of dying ASAP. He only actually made one weak suicidal gesture, but I take this risk VERY seriously in a teen with major depression.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
There were more kids who were dangers to themselves. I honestly think ASR is very lucky in that no one has succeeded in committing suicide. I can tell you first hand that for someone with major depression ASR could drive you past breaking point easily. It seemed like they pick and chose who they took seriously about being suicidal. I was not taken seriously, and had my roommate not been in the room one day, I may well have taken my life. I do not say that to evoke pity or anything else like that, and I was not using it to "manipulate" ( a favorite ASR term)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=15260&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60)
Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
1) What is self-study?
2) Describe this Escorting more please?
3) Why was a student doing the escorting of a self-harming/suicidal resident and not a staff member?
A self study was the worst of the three major consequences. (reflection, challenge, self study). You had work projects, all free time was spent at your table, facing the wall. Lots of writing assignments. Loss of all privileges. Standing during all meetings. You most likely had strict bans
Basically I had to take her back to the dorm and be with her while she gathered up her things and changed, etc. I don't remember if she showered or not. I was basically there to make sure she didn't attempt again.
I don't know why they had me do it. I was "trusted" at that point, and honestly... probably a better choice than some of the staff.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=15 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=15)
yes, they did. to a large degree. Dean Kent (the staff mentioned in the article) was gone by the time i had arrived. (he was there in 1997, and i got to ASR in Cummington, MA on January 5th of 1998) i had heard from other students about Dean, that he was a really nice guy but fired b/c he'd called DSS on them. Brett Carey was still the Dean of Student Life when i arrived, and his wife Lisa also helped in the fitness department & was pregnant when i first arrived. They had 2 other daughters, Madison & Carly. The whole thought was a bit frightening, because when we had the 2 hour group "therapy" sessions 2 times a week, they were harsh and abusive to say the least. All of us students would be split into 2 groups, and we'd be rounded up in a circle to get screamed at, belittled and dehumanized. They called it "confrontational", although it was more like verbal abuse and intentional slaughtering.
i was very afraid while i was there, as a student with an extensive sexual abuse history involving rape & incest, i was constantly the target of this slaughtering, esp. b/c i was overweight at the time. needless to say, i left ASR with anorexia some 19 months later.
Brett & other students were all allowed to scream vulgarities at you, called you a "fat bitch, slut," and all. at the age of 15 i learned the word "dildo" while playing scrabble with Brett. One of my roomates claimed that Brett had forced her into sexual operations.
Most of all, it was excusable for students to haze each other.
It was almost looked at as funny. One Staff named Kristen Merhoff gave me funny looks and made sarcastic and patronizing comments when i'd opened up to her about my eating disorder.
Later on, a staff named Amy Robichaud would scream at me for ruining my life, pushing everyone away, talking about how i was a disasterous person, unworthy of being loved. To say the least, she was an abusive person, much alike a person in the throws of an addiction like alchoholism & drug addictions, both of which she admittedly had. There was a great deal of favoritism there, even staff who seemed to want to gain the approval of certain students.
The labor & sleep deprivation that was mentioned in the article is most likely in reference to the "Lifesteps". These were so called "workshops" it was mandatory for all students to attend. Staff and students would be expected to open up there deepest and most unknown
secrets for the sake of "growing". It's true, there was little sleeping allowed & often i myself left feeling shamed & ridiculed.
i was one of the main targets in that school the entire time i was there, a target of hazing & was even blamed for a student breaking into the med office and comsuming large quantities of my prescriptions. For the first 5 months i was there, you could litterally leave, go smoke 1/2 a pack of cigarettes, drop a couple tabs of acid, take like 5 hits off a joint come back & they wouldn't even realize it.
ASR is, to say the least, a very very fucked up place. i have several more things to say, but this whole thing would take eons.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=30)
I am a former student at ASR. I was in the first peer group, 97-98. My experience there haunts me to this day. I have read many articles that refer to the "old staff" and "new staff". I cannot speak for the way ASR is run now, being 2004, but I can speak for how it was run in 97 and 98. Let me start by saying that I am not an angry, defiant kid who is trying to start trouble for ASR. I have graduated high school and am about to graduate college and enter law school. I don't get into trouble, I am a productive member of society, and want people to know the truth. We were badgered, belittled, sworn at, made to stay up all night during "life steps" and given only small rations of food, had all calls to our parents monitored by staff and had the phone hung up on us if we tried to complain to our parents about these things, scrutinized and humiliated on a daily basis. Our mail was read, staff lost their voices by yelling so loudly at us, I personally was called a "slut", a rich little Daddysgirl, a doormat, told my dad tried to buy my love with money, made to discuss personal sexual and private experiences in group sessions with other peers, made to write a ten page paper by hand about what my "issues" were, and if the staff didn't like it, I started over ( this was because I was too close to my friend there, and they put us on bans so we couldn't talk to each other). People, whomever wants to hear specific stories about all of these things, I would be more than happy to share with you!!! email me at gilligansisland636@hotmail.com (http://mailto:gilligansisland636@hotmail.com) i bet i can help you get her out of there
I also graduated from ASR very recently on August the 6th. And I can tell you right now that any kid who complained, their parents were manipulated right out of believing them. There was extreme emotional abuse there, and the only reason anyone's behavior was modified was because they were scared shitless of staying there longer or going to a worse program. We were so scared, your own friends turned against you and you couldnt trust them. The group sessions were awful. One of my friends who had issues with sleeping around was in group and the counselor in the room told her that she might as well keep a mattress tied to her back. Daily, I heard awful things about myself and everyday I was just so sad. Places like this are awful and they need to be stopped. ASR isnt even the worst of them but they all need to go.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... r&start=60 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=2826&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=asr&start=60)
I am a an ASR graduate. I graduated in October of 03. At the end of the program I believed that ASR had done a lot for me. Looking back I am shocked that I ever thought that. I was made to turn against my friends and turn them in for the slightest rule breaking (for example listening to music). In group we were often degraded and yelled at, supposedly to make us better. Several times I was suicidal and instead of worrying they told me I was lying and being manipulative. In one group eveyone was allowed to go around and say their judgements against everyone else things like "youre a fat slut". That group was horrible. You were scared into being good and behaving. I'm not sure why I thought this place was so great, I feel as if I was brainwashed in a way.
The wilderness experience was horrible. I spent over 40 days in the outdoors being punished for any little thing we did wrong. My first day I had to run 20 minutes and when I stopped the counselers screamed at me and when i vomited they didnt care. just told me i shouldt have drank so muich water.
HINT: YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP
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I have traveled extensively throughout Eastern Europe
Bullshit. You haven't been out of North America, SunshineDaydream is really obviously another one of your imaginary friends (you *can't* mask your writing style, seriously- you're just too insane to imitate a normal person), and Sagewalk is a torture pit that's failing so miserably you feel it necessary to post crap on Fornits to try to stem the damage (like putting a band-aid on a massive concrete dam crack).
As for Eastern Europe, that idea is exceptionally easy to destroy: Remember when WWASPS thought they could keep a shithole open in the Czech Republic? The Czechs closed the fucking place down because WWASPS reminded them so strongly of Soviet torture camps. So no, it's not accepted there, despite how badly you want child torture to be accepted everywhere.
Your wrong as psy, he has been there also, the kids are locked up if they are crippled or just turned out into the streets. People treat them worse then dogs if they dont have a family.
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HINT: YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP
Yes we can, because we already did!! :lol:
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First, I don't know who you think i am and I certainly am not going to tell you, but i don't know anyone here. Thankfully.
Second, I wouldn't have put the spelling at a 2nd grade level. Have you been in a school lately? I just had to respond, though I had just spent 18 hours traveling home. 5 hours alone at O'Hare, just to take a bus home. I still have no luggage. I'll tell you though, her and I navigated the fatigue, disappointment of not having a home coming and basically an airport in a whole new way.
Third, Sage Walk, like anything else, has evolved and become better. Much better. NONE of the things you have been referring me to have happened to my daughter or her group.
Sorry about the friend thing, but why are you so dense to think that everyone is the same and your view of things is the right one? When she spends 5 weeks practicing this fire, and finally gets it? It's not about the fire any more. Have you been in a school lately? Those kids do nothing but pick on each other.
This isn't even worth my time right now.
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No, Who, you aren't worth our time.
Go on, keep posting. Maybe someone will eventually believe this is real if you just keep trying hard enough!
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First, I don't know who you think i am and I certainly am not going to tell you, but i don't know anyone here. Thankfully.
Second, I wouldn't have put the spelling at a 2nd grade level. Have you been in a school lately? I just had to respond, though I had just spent 18 hours traveling home. 5 hours alone at O'Hare, just to take a bus home. I still have no luggage. I'll tell you though, her and I navigated the fatigue, disappointment of not having a home coming and basically an airport in a whole new way.
Third, Sage Walk, like anything else, has evolved and become better. Much better. NONE of the things you have been referring me to have happened to my daughter or her group.
Sorry about the friend thing, but why are you so dense to think that everyone is the same and your view of things is the right one? When she spends 5 weeks practicing this fire, and finally gets it? It's not about the fire any more. Have you been in a school lately? Those kids do nothing but pick on each other.
This isn't even worth my time right now.
Yeah, but you're still calling a teen girl, "nuts". “Parentsâ€
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I cant understand, for the life of me, how a guy can sit in an office all day long and punch in numbers and add them up, as accountants do. That has to be the worse job in the world. But I realize also that people like it and pursue it as a career. Just because I cant understand it doesn’t make it not possible.
It’s the same with starting a fire. This has been a huge self esteem builder for decades. It works!!! .... you may not understand it but it does….wilderness has been successful for decades and will continue to be even if some people don’t get it.
...
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Okay, I am not making fun of a teenage girl when i am tired. I am making spelling errors.
So, how come it is okay to rip me limb from limb because you don't believe I am a parent, but I can't write a simple hahaha to someone i have no idea about, but is basically calling me a liar?
Now, I am sort of a troll, simply because it's become fun to just see what you are going to say. The unfortunate part is I am not making up who I am or what has happened. Right now, I wish i was. I still don't have my luggage.
I can write. I am a social worker. My kid needed some help. What the heck is the problem? I just wanted to say the experience was great. Why is that wrong? Is there anything I can do to prove I have never heard of these other threads?
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Also, she was never left in the cold or yelled at for not starting the fire. She was encouraged and learned how to encourage. She was extremely well cared for and I'd like to know how you would know otherwise.
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The overwhelming majority of kids that go thru Sagewalk do well and move on with their lives but there are always the few that leave early or do not benefit from the program and come on to fornits to try to make it seem like it is abusive.
They will hound you because they don’t want other parents reading about how well your daughter did and are hoping that by beating you up you will leave. They are trying to get even with the school or their parents.
You need to remember that the definitions are different here:
Getting a ride = Abduction
Having a curfew = Incarcerated
Cooking your own meal = Abuse
No cell phone = Torture
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The overwhelming majority of kids that go thru Sagewalk do well and move on with their lives but there are always the few that leave early or do not benefit from the program and come on to fornits to try to make it seem like it is abusive.
They will hound you because they don’t want other parents reading about how well your daughter did and are hoping that by beating you up you will leave. They are trying to get even with the school or their parents.
You need to remember that the definitions are different here:
Getting a ride = Abduction
Having a curfew = Incarcerated
Cooking your own meal = Abuse
No cell phone = Torture
Two grown men coming to your bedroom in the middle of the night and forcing you into a car. They will probably put you in handcuffs. If you try to escape they will apprehend and beat you. Sometimes a group of adolescants from the cult will be sent to abduct the youth
incarcerated-
Strip search upon arrival, without due process
not being allowed to move without permission from another child, if given permission two children holding you. Need to be in arms distance of another child, or two, at all times. INSIDE THE BUILDING. If you wish to leave the building for another, there is another level of interferance- staff. Staff must grant you permission. This will not be granted if your group is being punished. If some activity is scheduled- a work assignment , all the adolescants must hold hands.
ABDUCTED two- 5 men coming to your bedroom in the middle of the night, and forcing you into a car. They will probably put you in handcuffs. If you try to escape they will apprehend and beat you. Sometimes a group of adolescents from the cult will be sent to abduct the youth
incarcerated- abused tortured
Strip searched upon arrival, without due process. Often by other kids.
You are not allowed to move without permission from another child. If given permission, two children must hold you. You must be in arms distance of another child, or two, at all times. INSIDE THE BUILDING.
If you wish to leave the building for another, there is another level of interference- staff. Staff must grant you permission. This will not be granted if your group is being punished. If some activity is scheduled- a “work assignmentâ€
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The overwhelming majority of kids that go thru Sagewalk do well and move on with their lives but there are always the few that leave early or do not benefit from the program and come on to fornits to try to make it seem like it is abusive.
They will hound you because they don’t want other parents reading about how well your daughter did and are hoping that by beating you up you will leave. They are trying to get even with the school or their parents.
You need to remember that the definitions are different here:
Getting a ride = Abduction
Having a curfew = Incarcerated
Cooking your own meal = Abuse
No cell phone = Torture
Why did this forum screw what i wrote up? Here is it, again
ABDUCTED two- 5 men coming to your bedroom in the middle of the night, and forcing you into a car. They will probably put you in handcuffs. If you try to escape they will apprehend and beat you. Sometimes a group of adolescents from the cult will be sent to abduct the youth
incarcerated---- abused---- tortured
Strip searched upon arrival, without due process. Often by other kids.
You are not allowed to move without permission from another child. If given permission, two children must hold you. You must be in arms distance of another child, or two, at all times. INSIDE THE BUILDING.
If you wish to leave the building for another, there is another level of interference- staff. Staff must grant you permission. This will not be granted if your group is being punished. If some activity is scheduled- a “work assignmentâ€
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Any parents considering sagewalk may wish to consider this posting from the Brat camp forum
Hi
I have just come across this site. I am a foreign national who worked in a
�Brat Camp� for 7 weeks before quitting back in 99. I assumed it was the one
bad place. Thought I would share my story.
I worked in a summer camp in Vermont for just normal kids when I went
travelling as a young guy. Im 30 now, was about 22 then. Except for not
being able to drink for 3 months it was great. I loved those little guys. So
I was bumming around America when I met someone who told me he was going to
work in a place out west for troubled teenagers. I thought this would be
rewarding and was told that the point was to boost their confidence by
getting them to push themselves and challenge themselves. At the time I
coached a soccer team for kids who were about 14 and I still think that sport
is a good thing for a young guy so thought this would be good. I was going for a
commerce degree and wanted to take time out for a bit but was told i didn't
need to be a teacher or social worker even though these were not average
kids.
I thought I would be helping kids but I basically spent 2 months making
them miserable.
Most of the kids were not as bad as i thought they would be and had just
done the kind of stuff that I did when I was a kid and my parents weren't
looking. Some were pretty snotty little shits but aside from that they were
not in deep trouble. I figured this would be easier than I imagined cause
the kids were not too bad. There were a few who were in a bad way and
probably should have gone to a place with really highly qualified staff to
work with kids who are not all there.
Turns out I mostly hated it. I know kids need discipline and I went to
A fairly strict boys school. But the way they treated these kids was pretty over
the top and harsh when you consider they were just kids and some of them
were girls. When i did the training to work there they showed us how to
restrain a kid who was out of control. I figured it was like learning CPR
and no one would never use it.
A few days in 2 guys got in a scuffle. I pulled them apart and kind of
yelled at them to calm down. I let one kid go as soon as I pulled him off his
friend as he was standing behind me so i coulld pull him back if he decided to
go at it again. When i turned back to the other kid this guy i worked with
had the kid on the floor with his arm behind his back. It was just over the
top. He was a big guy and this was a skinny little 14 year old kid. He
eventually let the kid up and i told the kid to just go have a drink of
water and sit down by himself because the poor little guy was
trying really hard not to cry in front of us. I told my coworker he was a
bit harsh and i remember him saying that you've got to be pretty tough
with them at first to stop this sort of thing from escalating. I figured he
was the expert so shut my mouth.
Lots of stuff happened that I didn't see the point of and that was way too harsh.
The hiking was pretty challenging and the kids were not all that fit. If I
ran it I would separate the fitter kids and have the other kids do an
easier course so that they could improve their skills and fitness. This way
they would at least be achieving something.
One
little girl was a bit on the heavy side and fell over a few times on tehe
first day. They let some of the other girls "challenge" her about basically
letting the side down. She was prety upset and cried. I thought it was out
of line and it set the tone for a pretty negative time for this girl. She
never really got the hang of hiking and was scared of the dark. The female
staff pretty much let the other kids, mainly the girls give her a hard time.
They kept saying giving her feed back helped. I thought and still do think
this was BS. The grown ups are supposed to be the onse to bring the other
girls into line some and make them be civil. This girl was going to go to
some other boarding school designed for kids wiith low self esteem. I
remember telling her to just stick it out and then boarding school will be
much better. It looks like the boarding school might have been as bad.
This kid's parents sent her because she was depressed but she had not
misbehaved. If anything she was really quiet and shy. Again I know I don't
have a degree in this area but this girl probably needed something girls
only where all the staff built her up and made her feel good about the
things she could do. The one thing this place did was help this girl loose
weight.
A lot of the stuff they had the kids do did not really help them learn to be
team players. If anything they were likely to make the kids turn on each
other. One example is the kids had to be all ready within a few minutes in
the morning ( I can't remember how long but not much time) One kid apparently
had add or some thing and was not a morning person. He was really
disorganised and becuase of him the kids were never ready on time. If they
werent all packed up and dressed ready to go I would have to make them do
the whole thing over. All of this cut into the amount of time they could
have to eat breakfast and was a penalty. If you think it seems petty so did
I but I did enforce it. So that this kid would not constantly start the day
on a negative note which rubbed off on everyone I had the 2 kids on either
side of him help him get his stuff ready and organised the night before. I
also got him up a bit before the other kids. My supervisor told me I could
not do this as it went against the program. This seemed ridiculous. How are
the kids meant to be a team if they are pissed at each other form the first
thing in the morning? What is wrong with having kids help their friends out
anyway?
In my opinion the kids didnt get enough food and none of it was very good.
Admittedly I am a farm boy and Italian so I've never turned down a good meal,
but even with this in mind these kids just didnt get enough. They got
oatmeal for breakfast with raisins and powdered milk. They never got anywhere
near enough lunch. Just a handful of dry grainola or pita bread with
cheese and some fruit. After an exercise filled morning this is just not
enough. The boys especially were always hungry. Sometimes if they acted up
in the morning they would not get their lunch. I just dont think this was
healthy. I asked my boss why we couldnt take away something else they enjoy
like some of the freetime activity instead and was basically told to shut up.
. Sometimes if it was just me and the kids i would overrule my fellow
staffers and let them eat it but mostly if they were told they couldn't have
lunch they woudnt get it.
Dinner was hardly worth the wait either. Most days they got lentils and
rice. On one day they got mexican wraps and on another pasta with cheese.
They needed meat and actaul vegitables but didn't get enough. Sometimes we were
supposed to ban them from putting spices and herbs on their food if they had
not behaved themselves.
The other thing was quick time limits on how long they had to eat. To me the
whole point of a meal is to make it a social thing. Especially if the kid
does not have good social skills. At the summer camp the whole point of
meals was to make the kids sit still for a bit and tell you about their day
etc. We were also supposed to make every kid finish eating all of what they
had cooked. At first this seemed like a good rule because they needed their
dinner. But some kids who made it too spicy or whatever just could not stomach
what they had made and threw up. Some kids would also throw up because they
had to wolf it down quickly. I know this sounds exaggerated but it really
did happen.
One guy that I worked with ( the one who pushed the kids arm behind his back
on the ground) punished 2 kids because one was not hungry anymore so he gave
his leftovers to a kid who was finished but still hungry. The kid who was
still hungry had not gotten his lunch in 2 days because of these BS food
rules.
Initially I had looked up to this guy in charge as he had been working with
kids for a while but by now i was beginning to think he was seriously
unbalanced and that he may have actually liked just making it hard for
these kids.
We weren't allowed to raise our voices at the kids but there were no rules
about swearing. This guy would swear at the kids and then punish them if
they lashed out. He was really fond of doing it with the young guys who had
a temper on them. The girls would usually just cry and he would tell em they
were being manipulators but the boys did worse because if they showed any
attitude back he would "restrain them" with the whole pushing em to the
floor thing and say they were a physical threat. I know that as a soccer
coach I have sworn at a group of young guys from time to time but doing it
to just 1 kid and deliberately pushing their buttons is I think way out of
line. I'm a bit old fashioned here but I dont think there is ever a cause to
swear at girls.
Another thing I read about is kids not getting proper medical attention.
This happened way too much. The first assumption was that
kids were faking. If you have ever worked with kids you would probably know
that they do try it every once in a while but this place would always
assume the worse. One kid was not all there and would wet his pants a lot.
This to me is beyond normal for a kid his age and he really did not
belong there. I reported it to the camp director who said kids will do
anything to get out of there. They did not let this kid go home but I really
think he should have been. Every once in a while I wonder about this kid and
what happened to him. Another kid fainted 2 days in a row before they took
him into the town for medical attention. On the first day they actually had
the other kids poke him with sticks as a "joke" to teach him a lesson about
faking and fooling around. The poor kid was as white as a sheet and on the second day
he fainted
could
not eat anything. i nearly came to blows with my supervisor because I just
thought he was totally unprofessional about it. When the kid fainted on a
second day and had huge rings under his eyes and was shivering like a
ghost it crossed my mind that if they did not get him to a real doctor he
could die. I know this sounds a bit dramatic but he looked that sick. He did
go to a Doctor but did not resume the trail. After this incident I quit
because in part it crossed my mind that a kid might die or be seriously
injured under my watch.
The other thing i dont know about in this place was the therapy. Sometimes
they would
make kids tell the others stuff they didn�t want to. One girl was made to talk
about the sexual abuse she suffered even thought it was really upsetting for
her. Some times the boys would use therapy to brag about girls they had been
with. It was obvious they were talking crap but who doesn't at this age? One
female staff would point out the obvious lies and totally humiliate them.
Given that if they didn't say something they might have to stay longer I
Didn�t see any way for these kids to win. One boy was also made to talk about
his dad's death in front of all the other kids and he was really distressed.
This pushed the kids pretty far and I don�t know if they were helped by it
but i am not an expert here so i could be wrong. The guy who was trained
in counselling seemed to think it was necessary.
Although that one guy I worked with was a psycho most really of us did want to
help kids and were not as bad as him but everyone seemed to think these rules
and this was of doing things was the best way to do it. I disagree.
It is ironic
because my main concern when I signed on was whether it was a good idea to
reward badly behaved kids with a holiday where they got to do cool stuff
while their friends had to go to school.
I hope there are better places to send kids so that they come
out feeling good about themselves because all this did was make life hard
for them. If the kids did behave better after this place it was only so they would
not be sent
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The overwhelming majority of kids that go thru Sagewalk do well and move on with their lives but there are always the few that leave early or do not benefit from the program and come on to fornits to try to make it seem like it is abusive.
They will hound you because they don’t want other parents reading about how well your daughter did and are hoping that by beating you up you will leave. They are trying to get even with the school or their parents.
You need to remember that the definitions are different here:
Getting a ride = Abduction
Having a curfew = Incarcerated
Cooking your own meal = Abuse
No cell phone = Torture
This is an eye opener.
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It’s the same with starting a fire. This has been a huge self esteem builder for decades. It works!!! .... you may not understand it but it does….wilderness has been successful for decades and will continue to be even if some people don’t get it....
Oh fucking bullshit. Anyone who has been deprived of basic necessities for some time will simply be elated to have such "luxuries" of warm oat mush instead of raw oats.
The elation/pride/whatever associated with learning to build a fucking fire is going to last a few weeks, at best, after the program. It does not resolve family difficulties, cure "depression", or reverse low self image.
Take your kid camping and get some real family therapy.
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Oh fucking bullshit. Anyone who has been deprived of basic necessities for some time will simply be elated to have such "luxuries" of warm oat mush instead of raw oats.
First you are assuming all kids like things warm, they don’t. Some kids prefer cold pizza over warm pizza for example.
The elation/pride/whatever associated with learning to build a fucking fire is going to last a few weeks, at best, after the program. It does not resolve family difficulties, cure "depression", or reverse low self image.
The challenge they are trying to overcome is that act of starting a fire from scratch and all its mysteries of forming a spark from a piece of flint against a rock. The power of doing something yourself for yourself. Hitting a home run, catching a fish, getting the highest mark on a test doesn’t cure depression either or a broken leg but it does a lot for a kids self esteem.
You should see these kids at the end of their stay. They all learned a lot about themselves and they all met the challenges set before them. One of the more memorable parts was when my daughter set up our camp (The parents slept in the woods the last day), started our fire and cooked the meal (Lentils and garlic!! Arrg). She was so proud of her accomplishments and we spent the night by our fire and talked about her stay.
Being a parent that went thru this I can attest that is was extremely effective. The turn around in certain areas was dramatic. This was SUWS that she attended.
Take your kid camping and get some real family therapy.
In your own words you only see this as a short term fix. I think anytime the family can get together and spend time it is well worth it. The kids like the attention away from home and the daily chores. I think this can have lasting effects also, especially if you can make it a routine event.
...
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The challenge they are trying to overcome is that act of starting a fire from scratch and all its mysteries of forming a spark from a piece of flint against a rock. The power of doing something yourself for yourself.
And if you can't, you don't eat.
Hitting a home run, catching a fish, getting the highest mark on a test doesn’t cure depression either or a broken leg but it does a lot for a kids self esteem.
But when you play little league, your ability to eat or take a shower or sleep doesn't depend on whether or not you can hit a home run.
You should see these kids at the end of their stay. They all learned a lot about themselves and they all met the challenges set before them.
Yeah sure. They learn how to shut down. They learn to not trust people they were supposed to be able to trust. They learn to be skeptical of any kindness. They learn to be hypervigilant. They learn to deal with PTSD.
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Oh fucking bullshit. Anyone who has been deprived of basic necessities for some time will simply be elated to have such "luxuries" of warm oat mush instead of raw oats.
First you are assuming all kids like things warm, they don’t. Some kids prefer cold pizza over warm pizza for example.
The elation/pride/whatever associated with learning to build a fucking fire is going to last a few weeks, at best, after the program. It does not resolve family difficulties, cure "depression", or reverse low self image.
The challenge they are trying to overcome is that act of starting a fire from scratch and all its mysteries of forming a spark from a piece of flint against a rock. The power of doing something yourself for yourself. Hitting a home run, catching a fish, getting the highest mark on a test doesn’t cure depression either or a broken leg but it does a lot for a kids self esteem.
You should see these kids at the end of their stay. They all learned a lot about themselves and they all met the challenges set before them. One of the more memorable parts was when my daughter set up our camp (The parents slept in the woods the last day), started our fire and cooked the meal (Lentils and garlic!! Arrg). She was so proud of her accomplishments and we spent the night by our fire and talked about her stay.
Being a parent that went thru this I can attest that is was extremely effective. The turn around in certain areas was dramatic. This was SUWS that she attended.
Take your kid camping and get some real family therapy.
In your own words you only see this as a short term fix. I think anytime the family can get together and spend time it is well worth it. The kids like the attention away from home and the daily chores. I think this can have lasting effects also, especially if you can make it a routine event.
...
Hmmmm.... How does TheWho know about the hard work of doing things for oneself? He was a trust-fund baby and given everything he has ever had.
Also, where were these "positive results" when TheWho's daughter came home and was engaged in heavy drinking and drug use, according to TheWho, "witihin hours of getting home"? Sounds fishy. TheWho is holding out this utter failure as success?
He also didn't mention that his daughter fell on her face after "wilderness" and another forced stay at ASR for an additional 16 months. How two programs over two years can be spun as "success" when the kid gets fucked up on drugs and booze as soon as she steps off the bus is beyond me.
He also "forgot" to mention that his kid cut him off completely from her life and will not any longer see or talk to him. Sure sounds like "success," alright!
People need to keep TheWho in perspective.
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Also, where were these "positive results" when TheWho's daughter came home and was engaged in heavy drinking and drug use, according to TheWho, "witihin hours of getting home"? Sounds fishy. TheWho is holding out this utter failure as success?
He also didn't mention that his daughter fell on her face after "wilderness" and another forced stay at ASR for an additional 16 months. How two programs over two years can be spun as "success" when the kid gets fucked up on drugs and booze as soon as she steps off the bus is beyond me.
He also "forgot" to mention that his kid cut him off completely from her life and will not any longer see or talk to him. Sure sounds like "success," alright!
People need to keep TheWho in perspective.
You forgot to mention she killed 2 police officers when she tried to escape ASR and is now in a maximum security mental hospital where she has managed to kill 4 doctors so far..
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Also, where were these "positive results" when TheWho's daughter came home and was engaged in heavy drinking and drug use, according to TheWho, "witihin hours of getting home"? Sounds fishy. TheWho is holding out this utter failure as success?
He also didn't mention that his daughter fell on her face after "wilderness" and another forced stay at ASR for an additional 16 months. How two programs over two years can be spun as "success" when the kid gets fucked up on drugs and booze as soon as she steps off the bus is beyond me.
He also "forgot" to mention that his kid cut him off completely from her life and will not any longer see or talk to him. Sure sounds like "success," alright!
People need to keep TheWho in perspective.
You forgot to mention she killed 2 police officers when she tried to escape ASR and is now in a maximum security mental hospital where she has managed to kill 4 doctors so far..
This is what TheWho does when cornered by the facts - he dreams up some hyperbole and tries to pin it on a "Fornits regular." You see that he didn't contend that the first quote was untrue, he just tried to hide it.
Facts are facts. By TheWho's own admission, his kid was in two programs for two years, came home, got high, got drunk, got laid, cut off TheWho and moved away. Not much to argue with there I guess.
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Hmmmm.... How does TheWho know about the hard work of doing things for oneself? He was a trust-fund baby and given everything he has ever had.
Also, where were these "positive results" when TheWho's daughter came home and was engaged in heavy drinking and drug use, according to TheWho, "witihin hours of getting home"? Sounds fishy. TheWho is holding out this utter failure as success?
He also didn't mention that his daughter fell on her face after "wilderness" and another forced stay at ASR for an additional 16 months. How two programs over two years can be spun as "success" when the kid gets fucked up on drugs and booze as soon as she steps off the bus is beyond me.
He also "forgot" to mention that his kid cut him off completely from her life and will not any longer see or talk to him. Sure sounds like "success," alright!
People need to keep TheWho in perspective.
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
I'd say that sums his situation up. LGATs work wonders, huh? Eh, thought reform is thought reform. Sad really. At least the daughter's away from it now. They'll probably end up like my father and I did. What a shame.
::noway:: [sigh]
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And if you can't, you don't eat.
No, they still eat. At least when my daughter went she still ate. There were kids who couldn’t get the hang of starting a fire for quite awhile.
But when you play little league, your ability to eat or take a shower or sleep doesn't depend on whether or not you can hit a home run.
Same with wilderness. The fire making is a challenge, something to attain, like a homerun. Not reaching the goal doesn’t mean you cannot shower, eat or sleep.
Yeah sure. They learn how to shut down. They learn to not trust people they were supposed to be able to trust. They learn to be skeptical of any kindness. They learn to be hypervigilant. They learn to deal with PTSD.
You initially sounded like someone who had experienced wilderness but apparently you are just trolling us. You must be the same guy who said he was subjected to Chinese torture and mind control. You lose a ton of credibility when you try to talk about something you know nothing about or making up stories.
...
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You lose a ton of credibility when you try to talk about something you know nothing about or making up stories.
You got that right. This is why not a single person believes a single word of what you say. You are the Prevaricator in Chief of Fornits.
Captcha: "action today" - right on!
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You initially sounded like someone who had experienced wilderness but apparently you are just trolling us. You must be the same guy who said he was subjected to Chinese torture and mind control. You lose a ton of credibility when you try to talk about something you know nothing about or making up stories.
::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::blah:: ::blah:: ::blah:: :roll: :roll: :roll: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
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You initially sounded like someone who had experienced wilderness but apparently you are just trolling us. You must be the same guy who said he was subjected to Chinese torture and mind control. You lose a ton of credibility when you try to talk about something you know nothing about or making up stories.
::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::blah:: ::blah:: ::blah:: :roll: :roll: :roll: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
I wouldnt rub it in too much. You may chase him/her away, they posed a good argument but were a bit confused about the benefits of wilderness. There are alot of people here (yourself included,Anne, if I am not mistaken) who think these wilderness programs hire people who practice mind control and weird stuff like Chinese torture which is a little strange. So they probably got this idea reading stuff here on fornits, so it ma not be their ideas.
Ease up on the person, they may have ideas of their own to contribute.
...
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I wouldnt rub it in too much. You may chase him/her away, they posed a good argument but were a bit confused about the benefits of wilderness. There are alot of people here (yourself included,Anne, if I am not mistaken) who think these wilderness programs hire people who practice mind control and weird stuff like Chinese torture which is a little strange. So they probably got this idea reading stuff here on fornits, so it ma not be their ideas.
Ease up on the person, they may have ideas of their own to contribute.
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Once again, you put words in others' mouths. These programs that use the therapeutic community method of 'treatment' are using brainwashing techniques that were developed by the Chinese and the Koreans. It has a lot of names, behavior modification/re-education/thought reform/redirection.....but its all the same when you break it down to its basics. That's why it can never be made safe. The basics, the fundamentals, the very things that make the programs "work" are dangerous in and of themselves. In order to achieve these miraculous changes you pro-program people are so fond of babbling about (yes, they do produce changes...but for how long and at what price?) against the will of the child (you've admitted that none of them would choose to be there), you have to break that will first and that's never pretty.
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You initially sounded like someone who had experienced wilderness but apparently you are just trolling us. You must be the same guy who said he was subjected to Chinese torture and mind control. You lose a ton of credibility when you try to talk about something you know nothing about or making up stories.
::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::blah:: ::blah:: ::blah:: :roll: :roll: :roll: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::whip:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
I wouldnt rub it in too much. You may chase him/her away, they posed a good argument but were a bit confused about the benefits of wilderness. There are alot of people here (yourself included,Anne, if I am not mistaken) who think these wilderness programs hire people who practice mind control and weird stuff like Chinese torture which is a little strange. So they probably got this idea reading stuff here on fornits, so it ma not be their ideas.
Ease up on the person, they may have ideas of their own to contribute.
...
Is TheWho now claiming to be a hermaphrodite? Why does he refere to himself (herself?) as a "him/her"? Also, why does he quote him/herself and refere to self as someone else? Very strange indeed...
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Once again, you put words in others' mouths. These programs that use the therapeutic community method of 'treatment' are using brainwashing techniques that were developed by the Chinese and the Koreans. It has a lot of names, behavior modification/re-education/thought reform/redirection.....but its all the same when you break it down to its basics. That's why it can never be made safe. The basics, the fundamentals, the very things that make the programs "work" are dangerous in and of themselves. In order to achieve these miraculous changes you pro-program people are so fond of babbling about (yes, they do produce changes...but for how long and at what price?) against the will of the child (you've admitted that none of them would choose to be there), you have to break that will first and that's never pretty.
Look, Anne, get past the Chinese water torture, no one is buying it. You are using scare tactics. They use behavior modification. You used Behavior modification on your own kids, you just don’t know it. If they did something good you said “Good Jobâ€
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I didn't read anything about "Chinese water torture" except your conflation of "techniques developed by the Chinese and Koreans."
To anyone educated in this arena it is painfully obvious and verifiable through documentation that the indoctrination process and behavior modification program used by "the industry" have their roots in the reeducation camps of North Korea. To deny this fact is moronic.
Denying this fact shows that the utterer is woefully uneducated in psychology. I hope this clears up TheWho's conflation of the issue.
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Like this?
(http://http://www.geocities.com/daveclarkecb/NewPhotos/WaterTorture.jpg)
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Wow, TheWho is really just not a very smart person. He answers the charge of conflation with further conflation.
Anyway, to use your example, douchebag, how different is this from the "OP" at TB? Not much from where I sit.
This idiot just augurs himself deeper and deeper into the turf each time he responds. If there is anyone left that thinks TheWhore is anything other than a complete dope, then that person is the only person alive dumber than TheWhore.
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Wow, TheWho is really just not a very smart person. He answers the charge of conflation with further conflation.
Anyway, to use your example, douchebag, how different is this from the "OP" at TB? Not much from where I sit.
This idiot just augurs himself deeper and deeper into the turf each time he responds. If there is anyone left that thinks TheWhore is anything other than a complete dope, then that person is the only person alive dumber than TheWhore.
Resorting to name calling. Tsk,Tsk. You just got owned. Discussion over.
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They use behavior modification. You used Behavior modification on your own kids, you just don’t know it. If they did something good you said “Good Jobâ€
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There is a big difference in rewarding a child for a job well done and being forced to change in fear of reprisal or extreme consequences.
They are both considered behavior modification.
The examples you give above do not compare with a child being stripped from their families, friends, and people that they trust. Having to endure "Fear Tactic" therapy. Suffering extreme consequences for not being submissive and allowing an unlicensed counselor get in their head and botch up the programming they are trying to do on the kids. Then the end result is a child who is emotionally and mentally broken. That's what happens when the average kid is traumatized in the programming process by brain butchers at programs.
I agree 100%. There is no chance I would send any of my kids to a place like that nor would I suggest anyone send their children there.
...
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The overwhelming majority of kids that go thru Sagewalk do well and move on with their lives but there are always the few that leave early or do not benefit from the program and come on to fornits to try to make it seem like it is abusive.
They will hound you because they don’t want other parents reading about how well your daughter did and are hoping that by beating you up you will leave. They are trying to get even with the school or their parents.
You need to remember that the definitions are different here:
Getting a ride = Abduction
Having a curfew = Incarcerated
Cooking your own meal = Abuse
No cell phone = Torture
ABDUCTED: 2-5 men coming to your bedroom in the middle of the night, and forcing you into a car. They will probably put you in handcuffs. If you try to escape they will apprehend and beat you. Sometimes a group of adolescents from the cult will be sent to abduct the youth
INCARCERATED---- ABUSED---- TORTURED:
Strip searched upon arrival, without due process. Often by other kids.
You are not allowed to move without permission from another child. If given permission, two children must hold you. You must be in arms distance of another child, or two, at all times. INSIDE THE BUILDING.
If you wish to leave the building for another, there is another level of interference- staff. Staff must grant you permission. This will not be granted if your group is being punished. If some activity is scheduled- a “work assignmentâ€
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There is a big difference in rewarding a child for a job well done and being forced to change in fear of reprisal or extreme consequences.
They are both considered behavior modification.
The examples you give above do not compare with a child being stripped from their families, friends, and people that they trust. Having to endure "Fear Tactic" therapy. Suffering extreme consequences for not being submissive and allowing an unlicensed counselor get in their head and botch up the programming they are trying to do on the kids. Then the end result is a child who is emotionally and mentally broken. That's what happens when the average kid is traumatized in the programming process by brain butchers at programs.
I agree 100%. There is no chance I would send any of my kids to a place like that nor would I suggest anyone send their children there.
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The way you are trying to make it sound is like the parents knew what kind of place that they were putting their child in. I don't think any parent in their right mind would send their kid to an abusive place, however do you think they freely volunteered this info to parents considering to send their child to this mind-fuckery center??
The answer is "HELL NO"[/color]... But for some reason or another you continiously try to do a little sales song and dance to the parents who come here and not expose the truth that abuse could be going on this very second in your little mind-fuckery factory and it would be covered up before any info got out.
Below is a story of abuse at a teen torture factory known as "Growing Together"
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12 ... -together/ (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12-09/news/suffering-together/)
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There is a big difference in rewarding a child for a job well done and being forced to change in fear of reprisal or extreme consequences.
They are both considered behavior modification.
The examples you give above do not compare with a child being stripped from their families, friends, and people that they trust. Having to endure "Fear Tactic" therapy. Suffering extreme consequences for not being submissive and allowing an unlicensed counselor get in their head and botch up the programming they are trying to do on the kids. Then the end result is a child who is emotionally and mentally broken. That's what happens when the average kid is traumatized in the programming process by brain butchers at programs.
I agree 100%. There is no chance I would send any of my kids to a place like that nor would I suggest anyone send their children there.
...
The way you are trying to make it sound is like the parents knew what kind of place that they were putting their child in. I don't think any parent in their right mind would send their kid to an abusive place, however do you think they freely volunteered this info to parents considering to send their child to this mind-fuckery center??
The answer is "HELL NO"[/color]... But for some reason or another you continiously try to do a little sales song and dance to the parents who come here and not expose the truth that abuse could be going on this very second in your little mind-fuckery factory and it would be covered up before any info got out.
Below is a story of abuse at a teen torture factory known as "Growing Together"
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12 ... -together/ (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12-09/news/suffering-together/)
The parents do know what type of place they are sending their kids after they have done the research and decided on a program. The majority of parents looking for a place for their children are not considering "military style boot camps" which is what your article is talking about, these are usually court ordered kids. It has nothing to do with TBS. I have read stories of what goes on in GITMO but that doesn’t relate to TBS's either.
I am not doing any sales dance, Botched, just trying to keep everything in perspective for the parents reading here thats all. If you posted the article and said "For those parents considering a military style boot camp for your kids" Check out this link......, then I would think you are on the up and up, but you seem to be selling your story as if it applies to the entire industry and it doesn’t.
...
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The parents do know what type of place they are sending their kids after they have done the research and decided on a program. The majority of parents looking for a place for their children are not considering "military style boot camps" which is what your article is talking about, these are usually court ordered kids. It has nothing to do with TBS. I have read stories of what goes on in GITMO but that doesn’t relate to TBS's either.
Just for your information Straight, The Seed, Synanon, Kids Helping Kids, Growing Together, etc were not Military Style Boot Camps as you put it. They are were/are considered Adolescent Treatment Centers and nothing more, however we have gathered here on Fornits to spread the truth over lies..... We have had first hand experience from an inpatient/hostage standpoint in these facilities.
And as far as being court ordered, well not all the victims were court ordered, in fact only a small percent and to boot the program coerced a major portion of the parents to have the kid court ordered.
If TBS's are so great and wonderful, why
(1) Are the kids not allowed to stay at their own homes?
(2) Why are the kids not in a normal public style school?
(3) Why are they limited to who they can talk to?
(4) Why are they not allowed to go hit the malls, go to the movies with their friends, have sleepovers like normal teens?
(5) Why do they have to endure a situation that will cause PTSD that will last them a lifetime?
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12 ... g-together (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12-09/news/suffering-together)
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(1) Are the kids not allowed to stay at their own homes?
Because it is a boarding school
(2) Why are the kids not in a normal public style school?
Some of them where prior to attending the TBS. They fell into an At-Risk category and their parents needed to pull them out or they stopped going on their own.
(3) Why are they limited to who they can talk to?
Some of the people they would talk to are part of the reason they are there, could be an abusive uncle, drug dealer, inappropriate friend, abusive boyfriend etc.
(4) Why are they not allowed to go hit the malls, go to the movies with their friends, have sleepovers like normal teens?
They can, they have movie nights where they go into town and see a movie, they can hang out together at night, canoeing, whitewater rafting, swimming, etc.
(5) Why do they have to endure a situation that will cause PTSD that will last them a lifetime?
They don’t.
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Just like the "Stay Puft" marshmellowman...... What you are selling is all fluff.
(http://http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b226/buickroad/ALL/171d.jpg)
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The parents do know what type of place they are sending their kids after they have done the research and decided on a program. The majority of parents looking for a place for their children are not considering "military style boot camps" which is what your article is talking about, these are usually court ordered kids. It has nothing to do with TBS. I have read stories of what goes on in GITMO but that doesn’t relate to TBS's either.
Just for your information Straight, The Seed, Synanon, Kids Helping Kids, Growing Together, etc were not Military Style Boot Camps as you put it. They are were/are considered Adolescent Treatment Centers and nothing more, however we have gathered here on Fornits to spread the truth over lies..... We have had first hand experience from an inpatient/hostage standpoint in these facilities.
And as far as being court ordered, well not all the victims were court ordered, in fact only a small percent and to boot the program coerced a major portion of the parents to have the kid court ordered.
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12 ... g-together (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2004-12-09/news/suffering-together)
Yep. Straight was considered to be the latest and greatest in drug addiction and teen behavior problems. Hell, Nancy Reagan came to visit while I was there. Later on she brough Princess Di up to the Virginia program because they were so impressed with Straight and specifically Newton.
:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:
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Hmmmm.... How does TheWho know about the hard work of doing things for oneself? He was a trust-fund baby and given everything he has ever had.
Also, where were these "positive results" when TheWho's daughter came home and was engaged in heavy drinking and drug use, according to TheWho, "witihin hours of getting home"? Sounds fishy. TheWho is holding out this utter failure as success?
He also didn't mention that his daughter fell on her face after "wilderness" and another forced stay at ASR for an additional 16 months. How two programs over two years can be spun as "success" when the kid gets fucked up on drugs and booze as soon as she steps off the bus is beyond me.
He also "forgot" to mention that his kid cut him off completely from her life and will not any longer see or talk to him. Sure sounds like "success," alright!
People need to keep TheWho in perspective.
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
I'd say that sums his situation up. LGATs work wonders, huh? Eh, thought reform is thought reform. Sad really. At least the daughter's away from it now. They'll probably end up like my father and I did. What a shame.
::noway:: [sigh]
The daughter doesn't exist. “Thewhoâ€
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(1) Why are the kids not allowed to stay at their own homes?
(2) Why are the kids not in a normal public style school?
(3) Why are they limited to who they can talk to?
(4) Why are they not allowed to go hit the malls, go to the movies with their friends, have sleepovers like normal teens?
(5) Why do they have to endure a situation that will cause PTSD that will last them a lifetime?
Let's try this again:
1) They can't stay in their own homes because the kids have abused the priviledge, while probably abusing each person in the home, so egregiously, that the parents, most likely in conjunction with several professionals, thought it was BEST to put the child in a therapeutic environment outside the home where the child feels entitled to privledges, and has grown accustomed to abusing everyone.
2) The kids are not in public school because they have abused the priviledge of receiving a public education, usually by failing academically, skipping school, scoffing at school rules and authority figures, and so on. The kids probably had I am special "plans" and accommodations, but continued to abuse and ignore them.
3) These kids are limited in who they can talk to because they make bad decisions about who to talk to, and often because they manipulate who they talk to for personal gain, probably with negative consequences. There is likely a pattern of repeated behavior in this regard.
4) Why can't they "hit the malls, go to movies and have sleepovers like normal teens"? Are you kidding me? Basically, because these kids are NOT normal teens. See items 1-3 above.
5) Why do they have to endure something that will cause PTSD? What a loaded, bullshit question. PTSD has no specific cause. It is a somewhat subjective disorder. Five women might get raped, but only 1 have PTSD, for example. Then again, a weaker-minded person might have to clean their room the same day they got a zit, and decide they have PTSD. You sound like the latter.
Grow up, dude.
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(1) Why are the kids not allowed to stay at their own homes?
(2) Why are the kids not in a normal public style school?
(3) Why are they limited to who they can talk to?
(4) Why are they not allowed to go hit the malls, go to the movies with their friends, have sleepovers like normal teens?
(5) Why do they have to endure a situation that will cause PTSD that will last them a lifetime?
Let's try this again:
1) They can't stay in their own homes because the kids have abused the priviledge, while probably abusing each person in the home, so egregiously, that the parents, most likely in conjunction with several professionals, thought it was BEST to put the child in a therapeutic environment outside the home where the child feels entitled to privledges, and has grown accustomed to abusing everyone.
2) The kids are not in public school because they have abused the priviledge of receiving a public education, usually by failing academically, skipping school, scoffing at school rules and authority figures, and so on. The kids probably had I am special "plans" and accommodations, but continued to abuse and ignore them.
3) These kids are limited in who they can talk to because they make bad decisions about who to talk to, and often because they manipulate who they talk to for personal gain, probably with negative consequences. There is likely a pattern of repeated behavior in this regard.
4) Why can't they "hit the malls, go to movies and have sleepovers like normal teens"? Are you kidding me? Basically, because these kids are NOT normal teens. See items 1-3 above.
5) Why do they have to endure something that will cause PTSD? What a loaded, bullshit question. PTSD has no specific cause. It is a somewhat subjective disorder. Five women might get raped, but only 1 have PTSD, for example. Then again, a weaker-minded person might have to clean their room the same day they got a zit, and decide they have PTSD. You sound like the latter.
Grow up, dude.
:agree: :feedtrolls: Thanks for keeping attention on this gulag interning and tortuing innocent American citizens. Love the equation of the trauma from rape to the "trauma" from a zit. Yep, these traumas are totally the same depending how weak your mind is!
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Oh wow, going through old posts is finding some super gems.
Funny how Whooter stopped talking about Sagewalk right after a kid got killed there and the place was shut down indefinitely, huh?
The overwhelming majority of kids that go thru Sagewalk do well and move on with their lives but there are always the few that leave early or do not benefit from the program and come on to fornits to try to make it seem like it is abusive.
Yuppers! Sergey Blashchishen sure did well, didn't he? He got out of the program early!