Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 06:18:22 PM
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 06:18:22 PM
Blog entry
Thursday, December 6, 2007 Looking for a Rewarding Job?
Look no further than a job in the wilderness helping kids who need a break.
NATSAP are needing highly qualified people to help run these programs. I had a friend who helped out last year and he said it was the most rewarding experience of his life.
Wilderness therapy has had a rough time of it lately and he told me it really needs a break because there are good, decent companies out there who really do have the kids best interests at heart. ::roflmao::
If you're interested, then get in touch with NATSAP directly.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 06, 2007, 07:15:17 PM
Hey, nice find. Working with kids is probably one of the most rewarding jobs you can ever have. I think everyone should have the chance to work with struggling teenagers and help give them a leg up. As we were waiting to leave I had the opportunity to speak with several of the counselors at SUWS and I asked them how they liked their job and they all found it very rewarding…. The best part, for them, was when the kids (with all their anticipation) had a chance to see their families at the end of their stay and they would meet up on the trail. They knew the kids had come along way physically and emotionally and were proud of their accomplishments. It makes the job that much worthwhile when you can see that type of progress over a few weeks.
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Che Gookin on December 06, 2007, 07:29:29 PM
Yeah nothing like meeting the parents to find out why the kids are so deranged.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 06, 2007, 07:40:26 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Yeah nothing like meeting the parents to find out why the kids are so deranged.
Ha,Ha,Ha, That is so true! I remember this when I was working with kids, in the summer, when I was in college. When we finally got to meet the parents some of the pieces came to gether on why some kids acted the way they did. I could match the parents with the correct kids before I was even introduced to them.... I bet you could do the same.
The apple doesnt fall far from the tree (as they say)
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 07:50:03 PM
i was thinking, maybe i should be an instructor. some kids from programs that end up working in programs are just sadistic, and want to treat others the way they were treated. I, on the other hand, feel good helping kids not have such a hard time. I had a fucked up time at wilderness. i used to hate being outside, hated nature, bugs, etc...now i'm the opposite. maybe i can make it less fucked up for the other kids. hook them all up, make it a good experience for them, unlike what it was for me.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 07:56:22 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
i was thinking, maybe i should be an instructor. some kids from programs that end up working in programs are just sadistic, and want to treat others the way they were treated. I, on the other hand, feel good helping kids not have such a hard time. I had a fucked up time at wilderness. i used to hate being outside, hated nature, bugs, etc...now i'm the opposite. maybe i can make it less fucked up for the other kids. hook them all up, make it a good experience for them, unlike what it was for me.
I hear you. Give them lots of good drugs, let them watch movies and geek out on the internet. Oh, and porn. Make sure the little fuckers have enough porn. Also, resist the urge to knee anyone in the groin; that would hurt.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 08:50:17 PM
no...thats going a little too far give them drugs? no. keep a modestly blind eye if they happen to bring them? yes, but only with weed, cigs, or shrooms.
Porn, internet, and computers? no. how is someone supposed to do that in the middle of nowhere, outside?
what i meant is make sure they are treated compassionatly, are well-fed, well-sheltered, not overworked, and if any other counselors decide they want to treat kids like shit, i'll knee THEM in the groin.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 08:53:30 PM
Quote
and if any other counselors decide they want to treat kids like shit, i'll knee THEM in the groin.
:rofl: Good answer :tup:
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:01:24 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
i was thinking, maybe i should be an instructor. some kids from programs that end up working in programs are just sadistic, and want to treat others the way they were treated. I, on the other hand, feel good helping kids not have such a hard time. I had a fucked up time at wilderness. i used to hate being outside, hated nature, bugs, etc...now i'm the opposite. maybe i can make it less fucked up for the other kids. hook them all up, make it a good experience for them, unlike what it was for me.
I hear you. Give them lots of good drugs, let them watch movies and geek out on the internet. Oh, and porn. Make sure the little fuckers have enough porn. Also, resist the urge to knee anyone in the groin; that would hurt.
I'm guessing every response here is a troll, or else the dumbest survivor to apprehend an internet connection . Uh, why would u, for any reason, involve yourself in wilderness therapy? How about rape therapy? Sometimes kids have a mean rapist...you can be the nice rapist, administering rape therapy.
It's not whether you’re mean or nice, what’s wrong is that you’re raping a kid. Likewise, whether you’re mean or nice, what's wrong is that you’ve abducted a human being and taken them on a forced march!!!! :flame: :flame:
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:05:59 PM
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 06, 2007, 09:18:11 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
i was thinking, maybe i should be an instructor. some kids from programs that end up working in programs are just sadistic, and want to treat others the way they were treated. I, on the other hand, feel good helping kids not have such a hard time. I had a fucked up time at wilderness. i used to hate being outside, hated nature, bugs, etc...now i'm the opposite. maybe i can make it less fucked up for the other kids. hook them all up, make it a good experience for them, unlike what it was for me.
Its good to see you gained an appreciation of nature by attending wilderness… you wouldn’t believe how many kids have never slept outdoors or hiked in the woods… that alone is worth the experience…it will definitely humble a person and give them an appreciation. I hiked a lot as a child so I am used to it, but I do understand there are many who have never been exposed to nature and it can be a shock at first.
Well most of the instructors/counselors enjoy working with kids and have chosen this as their profession (working with children). You need to be early on in your career (young, can relate to kids) to work well in wilderness and also need to enjoy the outdoors. Many work weeks at a time without going home to their family (which should be considered). It’s not an 8 to 5 job.
Someone mentioned kneeing another person in the groin if they are too tough on the kids… absolutely, that’s why there is always more than one person with the kids at all times.
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:22:41 PM
The who is right, you would do very well working with kids, and have all the qualification necessary. No doubt, you would help the youth in your care immensely.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:24:01 PM
:rofl:
Watching TheWho totally miss the point is almost as hilarious as the original article.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:24:18 PM
Goddam right! I'll be applying tomorrow!
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:31:45 PM
So will you be replying to mouthy youth as sweetly as you reply to me, a youth myself?
(reason #29987 why wilderness "therepy" is a joke with the punchline being the kids)
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:34:26 PM
For all those who are curious as to where this is all going:
The "wilderness experience" is actually a misadventure with cultists, usually of a Mormon flavor, forcing dependence on children in an artificially-scarce environment where they are forced to bond with their captors or die in the blazing Utah heat (and some die- some CHOOSE death). It's intended to cause a form of regression and soften kids up for further abuse in "therapeutic" boarding "schools", doing heavy damage to both their bodies (massive weight loss, and not of the good variety, is not uncommon) and minds. This leads directly to PTSD, permanent damage to the family, and occasionally raw, brutal hatred, of the "I think I'll shoot up a mall today because what else can they do to me?" variety.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:38:54 PM
I was only funnin'... I know damn well that wilderniss therepy ain't no good. Fuck, I trhink i just fukkin shit myself, gotta go.,
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 06, 2007, 09:46:38 PM
Bottom line is that parents will continue to listen to other parents who had kids go thru these programs and turn their lives around. Wilderness has been working effectively for decades and people know it... one of the major drawbacks is the expense.. and yes there will always be the few kids who don’t benefit from wilderness and come on here to fornits crying about having to sleep in the woods or cook their own food for a few weeks and tweak out like it’s the end of the world, but what are we going to do? Prescreen everyone for Ergophobia?
Wilderness can’t help everyone and I think this is an area in which we all can agree.
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:49:14 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
a bunch of shit...
Another drawback is kids fucking DYING. ::skull::
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 09:51:25 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
For all those who are curious as to where this is all going:
The "wilderness experience" is actually a misadventure with cultists, usually of a Mormon flavor, forcing dependence on children in an artificially-scarce environment where they are forced to bond with their captors or die in the blazing Utah heat (and some die- some CHOOSE death). It's intended to cause a form of regression and soften kids up for further abuse in "therapeutic" boarding "schools", doing heavy damage to both their bodies (massive weight loss, and not of the good variety, is not uncommon) and minds. This leads directly to PTSD, permanent damage to the family, and occasionally raw, brutal hatred, of the "I think I'll shoot up a mall today because what else can they do to me?" variety.
very well said :tup: here, mabye you're hungy ::burger:: and perhaps a beer ::cheers::
(Emoticons. Just precious.)
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Che Gookin on December 07, 2007, 08:19:17 AM
Watch carefully you will see a SUWs graduate employ their so called "tools" that are supposedly learned in "treatment".
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
i was thinking, maybe i should be an instructor. some kids from programs that end up working in programs are just sadistic, and want to treat others the way they were treated. I, on the other hand, feel good helping kids not have such a hard time. I had a fucked up time at wilderness. i used to hate being outside, hated nature, bugs, etc...now i'm the opposite. maybe i can make it less fucked up for the other kids. hook them all up, make it a good experience for them, unlike what it was for me.
Its good to see you gained an appreciation of nature by attending wilderness… you wouldn’t believe how many kids have never slept outdoors or hiked in the woods… that alone is worth the experience…it will definitely humble a person and give them an appreciation. I hiked a lot as a child so I am used to it, but I do understand there are many who have never been exposed to nature and it can be a shock at first.
Well most of the instructors/counselors enjoy working with kids and have chosen this as their profession (working with children). You need to be early on in your career (young, can relate to kids) to work well in wilderness and also need to enjoy the outdoors. Many work weeks at a time without going home to their family (which should be considered). It’s not an 8 to 5 job.
Someone mentioned kneeing another person in the groin if they are too tough on the kids… absolutely, that’s why there is always more than one person with the kids at all times.
...
So who kneed the founder of your daughter's program in the groin when he let ryan lewis comitt suicide who?
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 09:54:16 AM
Donald Duck.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 07, 2007, 10:32:04 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
i was thinking, maybe i should be an instructor. some kids from programs that end up working in programs are just sadistic, and want to treat others the way they were treated. I, on the other hand, feel good helping kids not have such a hard time. I had a fucked up time at wilderness. i used to hate being outside, hated nature, bugs, etc...now i'm the opposite. maybe i can make it less fucked up for the other kids. hook them all up, make it a good experience for them, unlike what it was for me.
Its good to see you gained an appreciation of nature by attending wilderness… you wouldn’t believe how many kids have never slept outdoors or hiked in the woods… that alone is worth the experience…it will definitely humble a person and give them an appreciation. I hiked a lot as a child so I am used to it, but I do understand there are many who have never been exposed to nature and it can be a shock at first.
Well most of the instructors/counselors enjoy working with kids and have chosen this as their profession (working with children). You need to be early on in your career (young, can relate to kids) to work well in wilderness and also need to enjoy the outdoors. Many work weeks at a time without going home to their family (which should be considered). It’s not an 8 to 5 job.
Someone mentioned kneeing another person in the groin if they are too tough on the kids… absolutely, that’s why there is always more than one person with the kids at all times.
...
So who kneed the founder of your daughter's program in the groin when he let ryan lewis comitt suicide who?
Not sure what you mean? Ryan Lewis never attended the same program as my daughter did. I believe he attended Aldredge Academy in West Virginia. In any event I beleive what the poster was refering to was being a counselor so he could protect kids and could knee another counselor in the groin if they neglected any of the children...... not the founders of the programs.
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 07, 2007, 10:34:50 AM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Watch carefully you will see a SUWs graduate employ their so called "tools" that are supposedly learned in "treatment".
Ha,Ha,Ha, Good Post, TSW, now there is a guy who feels like a fish out of water in the city!!! Maybe he needs "Urban Therapy"!!
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 11:59:38 AM
yes...forced marches, hypo/hyperthermia, and mormon wildernesses are bad....
but i must say, some wildernesses are good. many kids can benifit from spending some time outside, particularly city kids, and computer-centered kids. i have to say 99% of wildernesses are shit, but there are a few good ones. noteably, Outward Bound and the National outdoor leadership school.
personally, i went to two different wildernesses, on three seperate occasions. i HATED it. it was hard, too cold/too hot, and in the summer the bugs were driving me suicidal. I used to be a spoiled city kid - i liked my pizza, my air conditioning, and being able to spend 6 hours a day playing counterstrike.
then two years out of wilderness, i took a herculean dose of shrooms and went out into the woods, and spent a day there. I felt connected, at one with nature. i realized some stuff, wont get too deep into it now. But anyways, since then, i feel a craving for nature. i need to be outside, and as remote, wild and unpopulated as possible. i HATE the city now, and i used to love it. those shrooms gave me a serious attitude, perception, and personality adjustment.
I'm 100% positive that if i had not had prior wilderness exerience, i would never have been able to come to those realizations, with or without shrooms.
I was thinking of joining as a counselor because not only can i treat the kids with more compassion, but because i belive i can convince these kids, and change them the same way the mushrooms changed me. if my counselors at my wildernesses had that same sort of experience that i could have related to, maybe i wouldnt have needed the shrooms. but they were a bunch of millitary hacks, not hippies. wildernesses need to be run by hippies.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 12:14:11 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
yes...forced marches, hypo/hyperthermia, and mormon wildernesses are bad....
but i must say, some wildernesses are good. many kids can benifit from spending some time outside, particularly city kids, and computer-centered kids. i have to say 99% of wildernesses are shit, but there are a few good ones. noteably, Outward Bound and the National outdoor leadership school.
personally, i went to two different wildernesses, on three seperate occasions. i HATED it. it was hard, too cold/too hot, and in the summer the bugs were driving me suicidal. I used to be a spoiled city kid - i liked my pizza, my air conditioning, and being able to spend 6 hours a day playing counterstrike.
then two years out of wilderness, i took a herculean dose of shrooms and went out into the woods, and spent a day there. I felt connected, at one with nature. i realized some stuff, wont get too deep into it now. But anyways, since then, i feel a craving for nature. i need to be outside, and as remote, wild and unpopulated as possible. i HATE the city now, and i used to love it. those shrooms gave me a serious attitude, perception, and personality adjustment.
I'm 100% positive that if i had not had prior wilderness exerience, i would never have been able to come to those realizations, with or without shrooms.
I was thinking of joining as a counselor because not only can i treat the kids with more compassion, but because i belive i can convince these kids, and change them the same way the mushrooms changed me. if my counselors at my wildernesses had that same sort of experience that i could have related to, maybe i wouldnt have needed the shrooms. but they were a bunch of millitary hacks, not hippies. wildernesses need to be run by hippies.
Summer camp. Real[/b] summer camp. No behavior mod, no thought reform. Just camp.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 07, 2007, 12:20:15 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
yes...forced marches, hypo/hyperthermia, and mormon wildernesses are bad....
but i must say, some wildernesses are good. many kids can benifit from spending some time outside, particularly city kids, and computer-centered kids. i have to say 99% of wildernesses are shit, but there are a few good ones. noteably, Outward Bound and the National outdoor leadership school.
personally, i went to two different wildernesses, on three seperate occasions. i HATED it. it was hard, too cold/too hot, and in the summer the bugs were driving me suicidal. I used to be a spoiled city kid - i liked my pizza, my air conditioning, and being able to spend 6 hours a day playing counterstrike.
then two years out of wilderness, i took a herculean dose of shrooms and went out into the woods, and spent a day there. I felt connected, at one with nature. i realized some stuff, wont get too deep into it now. But anyways, since then, i feel a craving for nature. i need to be outside, and as remote, wild and unpopulated as possible. i HATE the city now, and i used to love it. those shrooms gave me a serious attitude, perception, and personality adjustment.
I'm 100% positive that if i had not had prior wilderness exerience, i would never have been able to come to those realizations, with or without shrooms.
I was thinking of joining as a counselor because not only can i treat the kids with more compassion, but because i belive i can convince these kids, and change them the same way the mushrooms changed me. if my counselors at my wildernesses had that same sort of experience that i could have related to, maybe i wouldnt have needed the shrooms. but they were a bunch of millitary hacks, not hippies. wildernesses need to be run by hippies.
Summer camp. Real[/b] summer camp. No behavior mod, no thought reform. Just camp.
go to another thread we are talking "wilderness therapy"
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 01:10:15 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
go to another thread we are talking "wilderness therapy"
::fu:: ::fu:: ::fu:: ::fu::
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 04:25:31 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
go to another thread we are talking "wilderness therapy"
::fu:: ::fu:: ::fu:: ::fu::
outward bound isn't wilderness therapy. it's just walking in the woods with a counselor, troll. DON'T CONFUSE the two.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
yes...forced marches, hypo/hyperthermia, and mormon wildernesses are bad....
but i must say, some wildernesses are good. many kids can benifit from spending some time outside, particularly city kids, and computer-centered kids. i have to say 99% of wildernesses are shit, but there are a few good ones. noteably, Outward Bound and the National outdoor leadership school.
personally, i went to two different wildernesses, on three seperate occasions. i HATED it. it was hard, too cold/too hot, and in the summer the bugs were driving me suicidal. I used to be a spoiled city kid - i liked my pizza, my air conditioning, and being able to spend 6 hours a day playing counterstrike.
then two years out of wilderness, i took a herculean dose of shrooms and went out into the woods, and spent a day there. I felt connected, at one with nature. i realized some stuff, wont get too deep into it now. But anyways, since then, i feel a craving for nature. i need to be outside, and as remote, wild and unpopulated as possible. i HATE the city now, and i used to love it. those shrooms gave me a serious attitude, perception, and personality adjustment.
I'm 100% positive that if i had not had prior wilderness exerience, i would never have been able to come to those realizations, with or without shrooms.
I was thinking of joining as a counselor because not only can i treat the kids with more compassion, but because i belive i can convince these kids, and change them the same way the mushrooms changed me. if my counselors at my wildernesses had that same sort of experience that i could have related to, maybe i wouldnt have needed the shrooms. but they were a bunch of millitary hacks, not hippies. wildernesses need to be run by hippies.
Summer camp. Real[/b] summer camp. No behavior mod, no thought reform. Just camp.
so basically what your sayin is that kids, after wilderness, should be given a herculean dose of shrooms.
interesting rx
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Nihilanthic on December 07, 2007, 05:27:45 PM
"Wilderness Therapy" is so obviously Wilderness-excused torment that I don't even know why we have these threads anymore.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 05:46:38 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
so basically what your sayin is that kids, after wilderness, should be given a herculean dose of shrooms.
interesting rx
no...not at all. But most kids (the ones who arnt sheep) do take shrooms at some point in their lives, and a good percentage of those people who take them do have a life changing experience. I know a number of kids in my wilderness group who were very much like me in the sense that they spent most of their time doing nothing productive, usually just spening hours a day playing video games. those people went on to have a very simmilar experience. Getting closer with nature is at the top of the list of the benefits which come from a positive psychedelic experience.
and Outward bound does have a troubled teen division. it's called outward bound ascent, it is unrelated to the wilderness Ascent. nols also has a troubled teen division.
for the summer camp comment, summer camp is not what i meant. kids can still benefit from hiking a few miles a day, climbing a few mountains, eating trail food, and sleeping outside for a month. it's just matter of how you do it. i'm sorry you feel that you had a negative wilderness experience. A good experience is tough, but is not abusively difficult. if you cant handle tough, sucks for you. life is tough.
when i was at HLA, the kids loved ridge creek (the wilderness associated with hla). it was like a vacation from hla. it was tough, yes, but it was still positive. sure, it was all millitary style, but I and all my freinds learned alot from it. Since getting out, i've talked to alot of grads and pulls. The majority thought RCI was the only positive thing about hla. they wished they only got sent to RCI, because 99% of their change came at RCI, and they even enjoyed it to some degree. the Kids who didnt like it, who complained 2 years after, were all spoiled fatasses who couldnt even carry a pack.
and i'm not a troll. i may be annon, but i've been posting here for a long time, avoiding all troll-type activities. i may disagree with you, but i'm not a troll. thewho is a troll. i'm not. I went to a number of programs and wildernesses. 99% of programs out there are shit. i have alot of negative shit to say about it, and no one ever gives me greif about it. but whenever i try to point out honestly the one or two good programs, or a few positive things that came out, i get shit on.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 07, 2007, 06:28:45 PM
Quote
…. i have alot of negative shit to say about it, and no one ever gives me greif about it. but whenever i try to point out honestly the one or two good programs, or a few positive things that came out, i get shit on.
I hear you anon. That is one of the reasons people here feel all programs are abusive…I think the most classic example was a recent grad from a TBS who was writing about his experience and talked about how the school got him back into studying again and he felt good about himself and hooked up with a good therapist, enjoyed the staff and still keeps in touch etc…… Well someone from fornits asked him “Wasn’t there anything you didn’t like about itâ€
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 07:18:20 PM
There was no "recent grad". TheWho is just making things up again.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 09:23:24 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
so basically what your sayin is that kids, after wilderness, should be given a herculean dose of shrooms.
interesting rx
no...not at all. But most kids (the ones who arnt sheep) do take shrooms at some point in their lives, and a good percentage of those people who take them do have a life changing experience. I know a number of kids in my wilderness group who were very much like me in the sense that they spent most of their time doing nothing productive, usually just spening hours a day playing video games. those people went on to have a very simmilar experience. Getting closer with nature is at the top of the list of the benefits which come from a positive psychedelic experience.
and Outward bound does have a troubled teen division. it's called outward bound ascent, it is unrelated to the wilderness Ascent. nols also has a troubled teen division.
for the summer camp comment, summer camp is not what i meant. kids can still benefit from hiking a few miles a day, climbing a few mountains, eating trail food, and sleeping outside for a month. it's just matter of how you do it. i'm sorry you feel that you had a negative wilderness experience. A good experience is tough, but is not abusively difficult. if you cant handle tough, sucks for you. life is tough.
when i was at HLA, the kids loved ridge creek (the wilderness associated with hla). it was like a vacation from hla. it was tough, yes, but it was still positive. sure, it was all millitary style, but I and all my freinds learned alot from it. Since getting out, i've talked to alot of grads and pulls. The majority thought RCI was the only positive thing about hla. they wished they only got sent to RCI, because 99% of their change came at RCI, and they even enjoyed it to some degree. the Kids who didnt like it, who complained 2 years after, were all spoiled fatasses who couldnt even carry a pack.
and i'm not a troll. i may be annon, but i've been posting here for a long time, avoiding all troll-type activities. i may disagree with you, but i'm not a troll. thewho is a troll. i'm not. I went to a number of programs and wildernesses. 99% of programs out there are shit. i have alot of negative shit to say about it, and no one ever gives me greif about it. but whenever i try to point out honestly the one or two good programs, or a few positive things that came out, i get shit on.
I hear you. I've been called a troll before, one loser-zenagent(?) insisted i was pro-program, cause i said to lay off ccm girl. Nature is inherently lovely. It is beneficial, as long as it doesn’t involve kidnapping someone. Sex is nice, but if it’s forced on you it stops being nice, and starts being rape. Same goes with the wilderness. Even consensual "walks" with counselors, whose job it is to make you talk about your problems, are unsafe. It's irrelevant whether the counselor is sadistic or not. Focusing a kid inward, like that, is unhealthy, and unnatural. Forcing public self disclosure is unhealthy, and it forces an unnatural self image onto someone. People shouldn't be encouraged to think of themselves as, primarily, diseased.
But I think voluntary hikes with someone who cares about you, would be great.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 07, 2007, 09:48:21 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
so basically what your sayin is that kids, after wilderness, should be given a herculean dose of shrooms.
interesting rx
no...not at all. But most kids (the ones who arnt sheep) do take shrooms at some point in their lives, and a good percentage of those people who take them do have a life changing experience. I know a number of kids in my wilderness group who were very much like me in the sense that they spent most of their time doing nothing productive, usually just spening hours a day playing video games. those people went on to have a very simmilar experience. Getting closer with nature is at the top of the list of the benefits which come from a positive psychedelic experience.
and Outward bound does have a troubled teen division. it's called outward bound ascent, it is unrelated to the wilderness Ascent. nols also has a troubled teen division.
for the summer camp comment, summer camp is not what i meant. kids can still benefit from hiking a few miles a day, climbing a few mountains, eating trail food, and sleeping outside for a month. it's just matter of how you do it. i'm sorry you feel that you had a negative wilderness experience. A good experience is tough, but is not abusively difficult. if you cant handle tough, sucks for you. life is tough.
when i was at HLA, the kids loved ridge creek (the wilderness associated with hla). it was like a vacation from hla. it was tough, yes, but it was still positive. sure, it was all millitary style, but I and all my freinds learned alot from it. Since getting out, i've talked to alot of grads and pulls. The majority thought RCI was the only positive thing about hla. they wished they only got sent to RCI, because 99% of their change came at RCI, and they even enjoyed it to some degree. the Kids who didnt like it, who complained 2 years after, were all spoiled fatasses who couldnt even carry a pack.
and i'm not a troll. i may be annon, but i've been posting here for a long time, avoiding all troll-type activities. i may disagree with you, but i'm not a troll. thewho is a troll. i'm not. I went to a number of programs and wildernesses. 99% of programs out there are shit. i have alot of negative shit to say about it, and no one ever gives me greif about it. but whenever i try to point out honestly the one or two good programs, or a few positive things that came out, i get shit on.
I hear you. I've been called a troll before, one loser-zenagent(?) insisted i was pro-program, cause i said to lay off ccm girl. Nature is inherently lovely. It is beneficial, as long as it doesn’t involve kidnapping someone. Sex is nice, but if it’s forced on you it stops being nice, and starts being rape. Same goes with the wilderness. Even consensual "walks" with counselors, whose job it is to make you talk about your problems, are unsafe. It's irrelevant whether the counselor is sadistic or not. Focusing a kid inward, like that, is unhealthy, and unnatural. Forcing public self disclosure is unhealthy, and it forces an unnatural self image onto someone. People shouldn't be encouraged to think of themselves as, primarily, diseased.
But I think voluntary hikes with someone who cares about you, would be great.
In some ways Zen personifies fornits … if you don’t agree with him then you are pro program. We had a guy around here called Dysfunction Junction, a while back, whose main purpose on fornits was to take down “Hidden Lake academyâ€
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 11:28:14 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
so basically what your sayin is that kids, after wilderness, should be given a herculean dose of shrooms.
interesting rx
no...not at all. But most kids (the ones who arnt sheep) do take shrooms at some point in their lives, and a good percentage of those people who take them do have a life changing experience. I know a number of kids in my wilderness group who were very much like me in the sense that they spent most of their time doing nothing productive, usually just spening hours a day playing video games. those people went on to have a very simmilar experience. Getting closer with nature is at the top of the list of the benefits which come from a positive psychedelic experience.
and Outward bound does have a troubled teen division. it's called outward bound ascent, it is unrelated to the wilderness Ascent. nols also has a troubled teen division.
for the summer camp comment, summer camp is not what i meant. kids can still benefit from hiking a few miles a day, climbing a few mountains, eating trail food, and sleeping outside for a month. it's just matter of how you do it. i'm sorry you feel that you had a negative wilderness experience. A good experience is tough, but is not abusively difficult. if you cant handle tough, sucks for you. life is tough.
when i was at HLA, the kids loved ridge creek (the wilderness associated with hla). it was like a vacation from hla. it was tough, yes, but it was still positive. sure, it was all millitary style, but I and all my freinds learned alot from it. Since getting out, i've talked to alot of grads and pulls. The majority thought RCI was the only positive thing about hla. they wished they only got sent to RCI, because 99% of their change came at RCI, and they even enjoyed it to some degree. the Kids who didnt like it, who complained 2 years after, were all spoiled fatasses who couldnt even carry a pack.
and i'm not a troll. i may be annon, but i've been posting here for a long time, avoiding all troll-type activities. i may disagree with you, but i'm not a troll. thewho is a troll. i'm not. I went to a number of programs and wildernesses. 99% of programs out there are shit. i have alot of negative shit to say about it, and no one ever gives me greif about it. but whenever i try to point out honestly the one or two good programs, or a few positive things that came out, i get shit on.
I hear you. I've been called a troll before, one loser-zenagent(?) insisted i was pro-program, cause i said to lay off ccm girl. Nature is inherently lovely. It is beneficial, as long as it doesn’t involve kidnapping someone. Sex is nice, but if it’s forced on you it stops being nice, and starts being rape. Same goes with the wilderness. Even consensual "walks" with counselors, whose job it is to make you talk about your problems, are unsafe. It's irrelevant whether the counselor is sadistic or not. Focusing a kid inward, like that, is unhealthy, and unnatural. Forcing public self disclosure is unhealthy, and it forces an unnatural self image onto someone. People shouldn't be encouraged to think of themselves as, primarily, diseased.
But I think voluntary hikes with someone who cares about you, would be great.
In some ways Zen personifies fornits … if you don’t agree with him then you are pro program. We had a guy around here called Dysfunction Junction, a while back, whose main purpose on fornits was to take down “Hidden Lake academyâ€
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 08, 2007, 07:51:29 AM
Quote
I also care about putting people who practice "therapy" that consists of abducting a human being, forcing them into agrarian slave labor, giving "higher" kids power over lower ones, coercing and allowing public peer denunciation of one individual child by the group for being bad, not working hard enough, etc, behind bars. I'm glad you agree with my goals.
We would all want to see those bastards behind bars, I don’t think there is one human being who wouldn’t have a place like that shut down in a heartbeat. If ever a child happened to be abducted, tortured and forced into slave labor (in this country) it would make national headlines… life time channel movies would be made, you would get to meet Jay Leno!!. All a kid has to do is talk to a reporter who wouldn’t mind becoming famous and Wala!! You would become an instant celebrity!! But so far this hasn’t happened.
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Troll Control on December 08, 2007, 08:41:36 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
so basically what your sayin is that kids, after wilderness, should be given a herculean dose of shrooms.
interesting rx
no...not at all. But most kids (the ones who arnt sheep) do take shrooms at some point in their lives, and a good percentage of those people who take them do have a life changing experience. I know a number of kids in my wilderness group who were very much like me in the sense that they spent most of their time doing nothing productive, usually just spening hours a day playing video games. those people went on to have a very simmilar experience. Getting closer with nature is at the top of the list of the benefits which come from a positive psychedelic experience.
and Outward bound does have a troubled teen division. it's called outward bound ascent, it is unrelated to the wilderness Ascent. nols also has a troubled teen division.
for the summer camp comment, summer camp is not what i meant. kids can still benefit from hiking a few miles a day, climbing a few mountains, eating trail food, and sleeping outside for a month. it's just matter of how you do it. i'm sorry you feel that you had a negative wilderness experience. A good experience is tough, but is not abusively difficult. if you cant handle tough, sucks for you. life is tough.
when i was at HLA, the kids loved ridge creek (the wilderness associated with hla). it was like a vacation from hla. it was tough, yes, but it was still positive. sure, it was all millitary style, but I and all my freinds learned alot from it. Since getting out, i've talked to alot of grads and pulls. The majority thought RCI was the only positive thing about hla. they wished they only got sent to RCI, because 99% of their change came at RCI, and they even enjoyed it to some degree. the Kids who didnt like it, who complained 2 years after, were all spoiled fatasses who couldnt even carry a pack.
and i'm not a troll. i may be annon, but i've been posting here for a long time, avoiding all troll-type activities. i may disagree with you, but i'm not a troll. thewho is a troll. i'm not. I went to a number of programs and wildernesses. 99% of programs out there are shit. i have alot of negative shit to say about it, and no one ever gives me greif about it. but whenever i try to point out honestly the one or two good programs, or a few positive things that came out, i get shit on.
I hear you. I've been called a troll before, one loser-zenagent(?) insisted i was pro-program, cause i said to lay off ccm girl. Nature is inherently lovely. It is beneficial, as long as it doesn’t involve kidnapping someone. Sex is nice, but if it’s forced on you it stops being nice, and starts being rape. Same goes with the wilderness. Even consensual "walks" with counselors, whose job it is to make you talk about your problems, are unsafe. It's irrelevant whether the counselor is sadistic or not. Focusing a kid inward, like that, is unhealthy, and unnatural. Forcing public self disclosure is unhealthy, and it forces an unnatural self image onto someone. People shouldn't be encouraged to think of themselves as, primarily, diseased.
But I think voluntary hikes with someone who cares about you, would be great.
In some ways Zen personifies fornits … if you don’t agree with him then you are pro program. We had a guy around here called Dysfunction Junction, a while back, whose main purpose on fornits was to take down “Hidden Lake academyâ€
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 08, 2007, 08:50:28 AM
DJ wrote:
Quote
So, please, TheWho, show the proper respect:
"There was a guy, Dr. Dysfunction Junction
If you did all that work to gain self respect and the respect of others you have a very rude awakening coming to you.. you cant buy respect, you need to earn it. Just by the fact that you are presently asking people for respect shows you get little of it…. This is due, no doubt, to a character flaw or lack of empathy for others besides yourself. Try being more understanding and respectful towards others, as a start, if respect is what you crave.
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2007, 08:55:34 AM
I'd say that's rather harsh, Who. A congrats would have been in order, at the very least..
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 08, 2007, 08:58:20 AM
Quote from: ""Santa""
I'd say that's rather harsh, Who. A congrats would have been in order, at the very least..
If you bothered to read his whole post you would understand...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2007, 09:27:15 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Santa""
I'd say that's rather harsh, Who. A congrats would have been in order, at the very least..
If you bothered to read his whole post you would understand...
Well now, Who... if you still want that brand new tazer for Christmas you had better watch your step from here on out!
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Ursus on December 08, 2007, 04:14:14 PM
Quote from: ""Dysfunction Junction""
No, I'm still here. Still working. Still writing letters, lobbying, putting parents and kids in touch with lawyers and advocates.
This is just another example of how one cannot believe a word of what TheWho says. He's a professional dissembler and should be dealt with as such.
What TheWho failed to mention, as I have posted here before, I needed time to complete a doctorate, which I have done. So, please, TheWho, show the proper respect:
"There was a guy, Dr. Dysfunction Junction..." :D
I have noticed that you do think a lot about me, too. You've been invoking my name on a weekly basis here. Are you queer for my gear or something?
::roflmao:: Kudos and congrats, DJ, on your doctorate!! ::birthday:: ::cheers:: ::birthday:: Glad to see that you're still kicking around!
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 08, 2007, 04:27:36 PM
Quote
Are you queer for my gear or something?
Spoken like a true professional.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2007, 03:17:24 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
I also care about putting people who practice "therapy" that consists of abducting a human being, forcing them into agrarian slave labor, giving "higher" kids power over lower ones, coercing and allowing public peer denunciation of one individual child by the group for being bad, not working hard enough, etc, behind bars. I'm glad you agree with my goals.
We would all want to see those bastards behind bars, I don’t think there is one human being who wouldn’t have a place like that shut down in a heartbeat. If ever a child happened to be abducted, tortured and forced into slave labor (in this country) it would make national headlines… life time channel movies would be made, you would get to meet Jay Leno!!. All a kid has to do is talk to a reporter who wouldn’t mind becoming famous and Wala!! You would become an instant celebrity!! But so far this hasn’t happened.
...
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time. Type in teen escort, see how many companies pop up. When you lie about something that can be verified with a trip to google...do you that makes you look good?
As for being an instant celebrity ....that's not the sort of celebrity that anyone wants to be, and as many kids have gone public, had a feature or two on 20/20 and watched the country not blink an eye, you are spreading misinformation.
When you report what happened to you to the police they will tell you it's legal, because your parents gave permission for you to be kidnapped. They will tell you what you are saying is a lie (as you say) or your slave labor will be desribed as some form of disipline or therapy. Even if a kid is beaten to death, as with tla, worked to death, like in aspen, or even beaten to death, this is interpreted as being in line with "therapy".
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 09, 2007, 09:01:37 AM
Quote
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time. Type in teen escort, see how many companies pop up. When you lie about something that can be verified with a trip to google...do you that makes you look good?
Well I did what you said and I found a couple of teen escort services, but I couldn’t find any that would be willing to kidnap a child, which I wouldn’t expect because they wouldn’t be in business very long. If this was a crime every school bus driver in America would be arrested.
Quote
As for being an instant celebrity ....that's not the sort of celebrity that anyone wants to be, and as many kids have gone public, had a feature or two on 20/20 and watched the country not blink an eye, you are spreading misinformation.
No one blinks an eye because you try to build up your story with false terms and redefined words like…. “I was abducted in the middle of the night and forced into agrarian labor campsâ€
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2007, 09:22:05 AM
A legitimate, traditional, boarding school would not accept a kid delivered by escort. You are not to be trusted because you deceive the public by refering to them as schools, instead of the pseudo psych institutions they are- subjecting kids to heinous experimental treatment.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2007, 09:24:11 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time. Type in teen escort, see how many companies pop up. When you lie about something that can be verified with a trip to google...do you that makes you look good?
Well I did what you said and I found a couple of teen escort services, but I couldn’t find any that would be willing to kidnap a child, which I wouldn’t expect because they wouldn’t be in business very long. If this was a crime every school bus driver in America would be arrested.
Quote
As for being an instant celebrity ....that's not the sort of celebrity that anyone wants to be, and as many kids have gone public, had a feature or two on 20/20 and watched the country not blink an eye, you are spreading misinformation.
No one blinks an eye because you try to build up your story with false terms and redefined words like…. “I was abducted in the middle of the night and forced into agrarian labor campsâ€
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 09, 2007, 10:05:14 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
A legitimate, traditional, boarding school would not accept a kid delivered by escort. You are not to be trusted because you deceive the public by refering to them as schools, instead of the pseudo psych institutions they are- subjecting kids to heinous experimental treatment.
"Excuss me officer"... yes son? "I need you to arrest someone"... for what? "I was abducted, abused and sent to pseudo psych institution where they are- subjecting kids to heinous experimental treatment"...[/b]take that tin hat off, son, grow up and start talking like a man, thats embarrassing.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2007, 12:30:48 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
A legitimate, traditional, boarding school would not accept a kid delivered by escort. You are not to be trusted because you deceive the public by refering to them as schools, instead of the pseudo psych institutions they are- subjecting kids to heinous experimental treatment.
This is right on.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2007, 02:37:00 PM
Yes, a real boarding school has real admission requirements, kids want to go there and there is usually a waiting list.
What kind of test scores did you need to get into your shitpit boarding school? Oh yeah, it was a urine test.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 09, 2007, 02:39:48 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
A legitimate, traditional, boarding school would not accept a kid delivered by escort. You are not to be trusted because you deceive the public by refering to them as schools, instead of the pseudo psych institutions they are- subjecting kids to heinous experimental treatment.
"Excuss me officer"... yes son? "I need you to arrest someone"... for what? "I was abducted, abused and sent to pseudo psych institution where they are- subjecting kids to heinous experimental treatment"...[/b]take that tin hat off, son, grow up and start talking like a man, thats embarrassing.
This is classic (http://http://cr4.globalspec.com/PostImages/200709/TinFoil_DB52B2F1-0E7F-A983-F0F9D799A20B06C8.jpg)
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 09, 2007, 02:52:10 PM
......we have friends that have children in traditional boarding schools who use transport services (escorts) to get their kids to and from the schools at times when they cant travel with them. The kids dont mind, I think they would rather have their parents take them but they dont see it as abusive.
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Oz girl on December 09, 2007, 05:27:50 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
so basically what your sayin is that kids, after wilderness, should be given a herculean dose of shrooms.
interesting rx
no...not at all. But most kids (the ones who arnt sheep) do take shrooms at some point in their lives, and a good percentage of those people who take them do have a life changing experience. I know a number of kids in my wilderness group who were very much like me in the sense that they spent most of their time doing nothing productive, usually just spening hours a day playing video games. those people went on to have a very simmilar experience. Getting closer with nature is at the top of the list of the benefits which come from a positive psychedelic experience.
and Outward bound does have a troubled teen division. it's called outward bound ascent, it is unrelated to the wilderness Ascent. nols also has a troubled teen division.
for the summer camp comment, summer camp is not what i meant. kids can still benefit from hiking a few miles a day, climbing a few mountains, eating trail food, and sleeping outside for a month. it's just matter of how you do it. i'm sorry you feel that you had a negative wilderness experience. A good experience is tough, but is not abusively difficult. if you cant handle tough, sucks for you. life is tough.
when i was at HLA, the kids loved ridge creek (the wilderness associated with hla). it was like a vacation from hla. it was tough, yes, but it was still positive. sure, it was all millitary style, but I and all my freinds learned alot from it. Since getting out, i've talked to alot of grads and pulls. The majority thought RCI was the only positive thing about hla. they wished they only got sent to RCI, because 99% of their change came at RCI, and they even enjoyed it to some degree. the Kids who didnt like it, who complained 2 years after, were all spoiled fatasses who couldnt even carry a pack.
and i'm not a troll. i may be annon, but i've been posting here for a long time, avoiding all troll-type activities. i may disagree with you, but i'm not a troll. thewho is a troll. i'm not. I went to a number of programs and wildernesses. 99% of programs out there are shit. i have alot of negative shit to say about it, and no one ever gives me greif about it. but whenever i try to point out honestly the one or two good programs, or a few positive things that came out, i get shit on.
You know I have heard similar arguments and if wilderness was enjoyable or therapeutic for you then great. I can see how a certain type of physically fit kid would get something out of some aspects of wilderness. There are also some wilderness adventure holidays that disadvantaged or at risk kids get taken on here which thus far have good reputations (at least to the best of my knowledge). There is also a family based one I posted about which raised some concerns for being run by an organisation associated with a bizarre offshoot of the mens movement. It is some sort of father son thing. Not one of them takes a kid who does not want to go. None last any longer than a week and all feed the kids much better food than just "trail food".
However much about your post speaks volumes about all that is problematic about the attitude of the industry. Why for instance do you assume that a kid that does not get something out of wilderness is a spoilt Fat ass? Would you say this about a kid who did not do well at a particular recreational sport? In the case of overweight kids would you honestly say that referring to them as a fatass would help them to get to a healthy weight and to gain a good body image? I am not calling you a troll just asking questions.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2007, 07:24:14 PM
Escort services take kids AGASINT THEIR WILL, in handcuffs, or drugged, to programs. There are articles about this all over the net. Type in "want to make your kid disappear". There is another medical survey available by typing in "Alison pinto" where kidnapping is described in detail by the victims. There are police reports available everywhere about this subject. They also verify that though they are notified of the abducting, the police do nothing, as they consider it the right of the parent. Type in "close thayler learning academy" or "abduction "intervention" this info is all readily available.. You are lying.
And you are lying about something that is easy to verify as a lie. Thank you for spoiling whatever credibility you have in the eyes of whoever may be witnessing your bullshit.
This happened to me, personally. Are you saying, monster child torturer, that I am lying??
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: TheWho on December 09, 2007, 07:51:40 PM
Quote
Escort services take kids AGASINT THEIR WILL, in handcuffs, or drugged, to programs. There are articles about this all over the net. Type in "want to make your kid disappear". There is another medical survey available by typing in "Alison pinto" where kidnapping is described in detail by the victims. There are police reports available everywhere about this subject. They also verify that though they are notified of the abducting, the police do nothing, as they consider it the right of the parent. Type in "close thayler learning academy" or "abduction "intervention" this info is all readily available.. You are lying.
They are not abductions or kidnapping (you watch too many movies). I think the problem most kids are having understanding this is that before you are of age (18 or 21) the parents make the rules and have all the say in what you do. If they want to "home school" you that is their choice. If they decide to hire an escort service (bus company) to pick you up against your will and drive you to a public institution (local public school), kicking and screaming, to get you an education, then that is their choice also (whether it is a local public school or a TBS). The police are not going to come to your rescue nor should they unless there is a teacher who is abusing you and then you need to talk to your parents. But all this talk of abduction and kidnapping is such crap.. all kids are forced to do what the parents decide until they are of age.
Quote
And you are lying about something that is easy to verify as a lie. Thank you for spoiling whatever credibility you have in the eyes of whoever may be witnessing your bullshit.
This happened to me, personally. Are you saying, monster child torturer, that I am lying??
Yes I am, I am saying you are lying. As long as your parents gave consent then there is no crime. The law allows for emancipation if you choose to head out on your own.. but if you don’t choose this then don’t belly ached and blame others. Either emancipate yourself or wait until you are of age to care for yourself.
...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2007, 01:19:39 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
You know I have heard similar arguments and if wilderness was enjoyable or therapeutic for you then great. I can see how a certain type of physically fit kid would get something out of some aspects of wilderness. There are also some wilderness adventure holidays that disadvantaged or at risk kids get taken on here which thus far have good reputations (at least to the best of my knowledge). There is also a family based one I posted about which raised some concerns for being run by an organisation associated with a bizarre offshoot of the mens movement. It is some sort of father son thing. Not one of them takes a kid who does not want to go. None last any longer than a week and all feed the kids much better food than just "trail food".
However much about your post speaks volumes about all that is problematic about the attitude of the industry. Why for instance do you assume that a kid that does not get something out of wilderness is a spoilt Fat ass? Would you say this about a kid who did not do well at a particular recreational sport? In the case of overweight kids would you honestly say that referring to them as a fatass would help them to get to a healthy weight and to gain a good body image? I am not calling you a troll just asking questions.
I am speaking from my personal experience. I met up with quite a few kids from my group. the only ones who said they hated it (still) were fatasses then and now. They want never wanted anything to do with the outdoors, to them, life was on a computer screen (everquest mostly). i wouldnt expect much more of them. I was pretty overweight myself when i went to multiple wildernesses, and still am. i complained my ass off the first trip. afterwards, i got over it, and lost some weight while i was at it. I found hiking much more enjoyable than running in circles or on a treadmill, biking in one place, or lifting weights in a small room surrounded by other people doing likewise. I wouldnt call these kids a fatass in person. I think alot of the reason many kids dont get much physical activity is because they have never been introduced to something they enjoy. they much prefer videogames over going to the gym, and it's easy to see why. theres plenty of things one can do to work off weight which are much more viable for these people. wheather it be hunting, badminton, rock climbing, snowboarding, sailing, even walking more. the key is weaning people off the computer and helping them find their niche. i was just lucky that hiking became something i enjoy. another key is food - not just how much, but what you eat too. I dont mean protein vs. carbs, i mean organic vs. chemically treated. 99% of the stuff in most supermarkets (even the vegetable isle) is toxic, and eating it will make you very fat and ill. just improving the quality of food makes a difference. I lost alot of weight switching from supermarket style boxed or packaged food to locally produced, organic food. i eat alot more but i'm much healthier. the reason i continue calling these people fatasses is because they make no effort to find an activity they like. whenever they do ANYTHING, they complain about it being too physically demanding. with that attitude, what do you expect?
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2007, 01:38:36 AM
oh yeah, and about the whole escorts for traditional boarding schools.....LOL. if you do that, you've got serious issues with helicopter parenting. i went to boarding school in europe for two years when i was nine and ten. i traveled alone, except for special treatment airlines give to minors travelling alone.
When i was escorted to my program, the two guys that picked me up were really, really shady. the first one was a really big redneck guy who claimed to be a retired cop. the other was a guy who claimed to be an ex marine. on the drive to the airport, i overheard the marine saying that he's being deployed by blackwater into bolivia for some sort of narcotics operation. the ex-cops pickup truck had a gun rack with a few shotguns on it. He also carried a gun, and was able to bring it on the plane. this was post 9/11.
----- People to never trust your kids with: marines - check cops - check rednecks - check covert narcotics operatives - check mercenarys - check members of the NRA - check People who drive beat-up pickups with gun racks - check
if i had kids, and was completely oblivious to the problems in the industry, i would still never trust my kids with these people. who in their right mind would trust a bunch of triggerhappy drug warriors with their kids?
nothing against the armed forces...just the marines have a very dangerous mentality. they are mostly either brainwashed or naturally extremely violent meatheads. they all have tapes saying "kill, kill, destroy, kill, kill, kill, destroy..." stuck on repeat in their heads. not litterally, but thats the mentality.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2007, 01:41:10 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
Escort services take kids AGASINT THEIR WILL, in handcuffs, or drugged, to programs. There are articles about this all over the net. Type in "want to make your kid disappear". There is another medical survey available by typing in "Alison pinto" where kidnapping is described in detail by the victims. There are police reports available everywhere about this subject. They also verify that though they are notified of the abducting, the police do nothing, as they consider it the right of the parent. Type in "close thayler learning academy" or "abduction "intervention" this info is all readily available.. You are lying.
They are not abductions or kidnapping (you watch too many movies). I think the problem most kids are having understanding this is that before you are of age (18 or 21) the parents make the rules and have all the say in what you do. If they want to "home school" you that is their choice. If they decide to hire an escort service (bus company) to pick you up against your will and drive you to a public institution (local public school), kicking and screaming, to get you an education, then that is their choice also (whether it is a local public school or a TBS). The police are not going to come to your rescue nor should they unless there is a teacher who is abusing you and then you need to talk to your parents. But all this talk of abduction and kidnapping is such crap.. all kids are forced to do what the parents decide until they are of age.
Quote
And you are lying about something that is easy to verify as a lie. Thank you for spoiling whatever credibility you have in the eyes of whoever may be witnessing your bullshit.
This happened to me, personally. Are you saying, monster child torturer, that I am lying??
Yes I am, I am saying you are lying. As long as your parents gave consent then there is no crime. The law allows for emancipation if you choose to head out on your own.. but if you don’t choose this then don’t belly ached and blame others. Either emancipate yourself or wait until you are of age to care for yourself.
...
quoted for distrubing sickness
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Ursus on December 10, 2007, 02:18:05 AM
Back to wilderness, two cents from the bear... Personally, I rather liked wilderness. Maybe that is because in my day, they hadn't yet fully caught on to its umph factor in brainwashing. I think back then, Hyde was still trying to mimic Outward Bound in its earliest incarnations. If I recall correctly, it was still within the first decade of OB having graced our shores. Moreover, I was not exactly an innocent when it came to spending time alone in the woods. And some of the staff were not exactly well-versed when it came to survival out there, so they were less focused. But from what I can gather, that has changed. That is, they've caught on to the umph factor.
I think one of the primary reasons that wilderness "therapy" has caught on so pervasively in the troubled teen industry is that these programs realize that putting people in a milieu that they are unfamiliar with increases their vulnerability, and hence susceptibility, to indoctrination of whatever sort they see fit. The "environmental vocabulary" gets completely changed from what the kids are used to negotiating on a daily basis; there are no guideposts to trigger that expectations may not be appropriate. Consequently, personal boundaries are all the more easily transgressed. Were these kids more familiar with the terrain, so to speak, it wouldn't "work" half as well.
Outward Bound seems to have changed too. I believe it has splintered, with maybe only one of those fragments still devoted to the original ideals. At least one of the offshoots is heavily focused on reaping the financial gains of rewiring teen psyches in the grand, wild outdoors. Very sad.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Che Gookin on December 10, 2007, 02:50:17 AM
Good thing I'm already in a funk. It doesn't make the "good news" of outward bounds all that depressing.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2007, 03:12:52 AM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Back to wilderness, two cents from the bear... Personally, I rather liked wilderness. Maybe that is because in my day, they hadn't yet fully caught on to its umph factor in brainwashing. I think back then, Hyde was still trying to mimic Outward Bound in its earliest incarnations. If I recall correctly, it was still within the first decade of OB having graced our shores. Moreover, I was not exactly an innocent when it came to spending time alone in the woods. And some of the staff were not exactly well-versed when it came to survival out there, so they were less focused. But from what I can gather, that has changed. That is, they've caught on to the umph factor.
I think one of the primary reasons that wilderness "therapy" has caught on so pervasively in the troubled teen industry is that these programs realize that putting people in a milieu that they are unfamiliar with increases their vulnerability, and hence susceptibility, to indoctrination of whatever sort they see fit. The "environmental vocabulary" gets completely changed from what the kids are used to negotiating on a daily basis; there are no guideposts to trigger that expectations may not be appropriate. Consequently, personal boundaries are all the more easily transgressed. Were these kids more familiar with the terrain, so to speak, it wouldn't "work" half as well.
Outward Bound seems to have changed too. I believe it has splintered, with maybe only one of those fragments still devoted to the original ideals. At least one of the offshoots is heavily focused on reaping the financial gains of rewiring teen psyches in the grand, wild outdoors. Very sad.
If you have ever gone mountain climbing, you might have become aware of your dependence on the group. The reason is that in order to survive you must quickly adapt to acting as a group. Every individual cooperates so that the whole group may enjoy a benefit. You start to discover a few simple rules that allow a group of wilful individuals to form a collective brain able to make decisions like a single organism. If individuals act out, the group as a whole suffers. A narrow range of behavior allows the group to climb the mountain as safely as possible.
You can see how useful wilderness programs are to therapeutic boarding schools. When the danger of acting independently rises beyond a certain threshold, a group intelligence is formed. This happens much faster in the great outdoors than in the school itself where a student's basic needs are provided for.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2007, 03:14:10 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I am speaking from my personal experience. I met up with quite a few kids from my group. the only ones who said they hated it (still) were fatasses then and now. They want never wanted anything to do with the outdoors, to them, life was on a computer screen (everquest mostly). i wouldnt expect much more of them. I was pretty overweight myself when i went to multiple wildernesses, and still am. i complained my ass off the first trip. afterwards, i got over it, and lost some weight while i was at it. I found hiking much more enjoyable than running in circles or on a treadmill, biking in one place, or lifting weights in a small room surrounded by other people doing likewise. I wouldnt call these kids a fatass in person. I think alot of the reason many kids dont get much physical activity is because they have never been introduced to something they enjoy. they much prefer videogames over going to the gym, and it's easy to see why. theres plenty of things one can do to work off weight which are much more viable for these people. wheather it be hunting, badminton, rock climbing, snowboarding, sailing, even walking more. the key is weaning people off the computer and helping them find their niche. i was just lucky that hiking became something i enjoy. another key is food - not just how much, but what you eat too. I dont mean protein vs. carbs, i mean organic vs. chemically treated. 99% of the stuff in most supermarkets (even the vegetable isle) is toxic, and eating it will make you very fat and ill. just improving the quality of food makes a difference. I lost alot of weight switching from supermarket style boxed or packaged food to locally produced, organic food. i eat alot more but i'm much healthier. the reason i continue calling these people fatasses is because they make no effort to find an activity they like. whenever they do ANYTHING, they complain about it being too physically demanding. with that attitude, what do you expect?
The thing is though that there is a philosophical pattern within the industry of dismissing complaints whether it be toward wilderness or tbs and the irrelevant whinings of the weak. The fact that this attitude is mean spirited is one thing, but it leads to serious injury and death as the complaints of such kids are ignored. It does not seem coincidental to me that Ina August and Gina score were both overweight. Or that Aaron Bacon was described as being cerebal and scornful of the anti intellectual philosophy of his program. I am sure kids who dont fit this sort of Jock culture have it tougher than some of their peers at wilderness. Given that such programs are meant to cater to problematic young people with health or drug issues then why is it in your opinion that the "fat asses" don't come away healed? Afterall some such kids go to summer camp when they are younger and do hate some of the activities. But because the experience is meant to be about fun they also can often find lots to enjoy. Usually a kid who hates soccer can be convinced to have a kick because in 20 minutes they will be doing something they like. What does not happen is being forced to do the unpleasant thing all day every day. Their failures or personal preferences in some activities are not seen as character flaws.
I agree with you that western kids on the whole probably could stand to get more exercise all round. Their parents could also stock their homes far more healthily than is the general trend. When I was a kid even a decade ago it was far more common to see kids hitting balls on suburban streets and a bike was more or less the average 10 year old's car. But nobody is forcing mum and dad to shit in the woods and do things they hate until they are claiming a good time. This is because as adults they have the right to refuse. Even in the cases where wilderness is not downright abusive the psychology behind it is crude and meanspirited
Oz girl
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Ursus on December 10, 2007, 03:40:00 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Back to wilderness, two cents from the bear... Personally, I rather liked wilderness. Maybe that is because in my day, they hadn't yet fully caught on to its umph factor in brainwashing. I think back then, Hyde was still trying to mimic Outward Bound in its earliest incarnations. If I recall correctly, it was still within the first decade of OB having graced our shores. Moreover, I was not exactly an innocent when it came to spending time alone in the woods. And some of the staff were not exactly well-versed when it came to survival out there, so they were less focused. But from what I can gather, that has changed. That is, they've caught on to the umph factor.
I think one of the primary reasons that wilderness "therapy" has caught on so pervasively in the troubled teen industry is that these programs realize that putting people in a milieu that they are unfamiliar with increases their vulnerability, and hence susceptibility, to indoctrination of whatever sort they see fit. The "environmental vocabulary" gets completely changed from what the kids are used to negotiating on a daily basis; there are no guideposts to trigger that expectations may not be appropriate. Consequently, personal boundaries are all the more easily transgressed. Were these kids more familiar with the terrain, so to speak, it wouldn't "work" half as well.
Outward Bound seems to have changed too. I believe it has splintered, with maybe only one of those fragments still devoted to the original ideals. At least one of the offshoots is heavily focused on reaping the financial gains of rewiring teen psyches in the grand, wild outdoors. Very sad.
If you have ever gone mountain climbing, you might have become aware of your dependence on the group. The reason is that in order to survive you must quickly adapt to acting as a group. Every individual cooperates so that the whole group may enjoy a benefit. You start to discover a few simple rules that allow a group of wilful individuals to form a collective brain able to make decisions like a single organism. If individuals act out, the group as a whole suffers. A narrow range of behavior allows the group to climb the mountain as safely as possible.
You can see how useful wilderness programs are to therapeutic boarding schools. When the danger of acting independently rises beyond a certain threshold, a group intelligence is formed. This happens much faster in the great outdoors than in the school itself where a student's basic needs are provided for.
Yah, I hear you. I've gone up in "avalanche conditions," in the dead of winter. But I think most people, kids included, would respond naturally to the needs of the situation. That kind of thing is in the spirit of cooperation and the need to survive as intact as possible. But the mod behaviorists add a component of mean-spirited punitiveness to the equation that would be totally unnecessary if their motives were "pure." What the hell is the point of the raps and talks and seminars en route? Gimme a break.
But I am guessing the point of your post was really to underscore the groupthink and conformity necessary under said extreme conditions. Kind of what I was trying to say with "environmental vocabulary," but I think you said it much better and certainly more clearly.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2007, 03:54:00 AM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Back to wilderness, two cents from the bear... Personally, I rather liked wilderness. Maybe that is because in my day, they hadn't yet fully caught on to its umph factor in brainwashing. I think back then, Hyde was still trying to mimic Outward Bound in its earliest incarnations. If I recall correctly, it was still within the first decade of OB having graced our shores. Moreover, I was not exactly an innocent when it came to spending time alone in the woods. And some of the staff were not exactly well-versed when it came to survival out there, so they were less focused. But from what I can gather, that has changed. That is, they've caught on to the umph factor.
I think one of the primary reasons that wilderness "therapy" has caught on so pervasively in the troubled teen industry is that these programs realize that putting people in a milieu that they are unfamiliar with increases their vulnerability, and hence susceptibility, to indoctrination of whatever sort they see fit. The "environmental vocabulary" gets completely changed from what the kids are used to negotiating on a daily basis; there are no guideposts to trigger that expectations may not be appropriate. Consequently, personal boundaries are all the more easily transgressed. Were these kids more familiar with the terrain, so to speak, it wouldn't "work" half as well.
Outward Bound seems to have changed too. I believe it has splintered, with maybe only one of those fragments still devoted to the original ideals. At least one of the offshoots is heavily focused on reaping the financial gains of rewiring teen psyches in the grand, wild outdoors. Very sad.
If you have ever gone mountain climbing, you might have become aware of your dependence on the group. The reason is that in order to survive you must quickly adapt to acting as a group. Every individual cooperates so that the whole group may enjoy a benefit. You start to discover a few simple rules that allow a group of wilful individuals to form a collective brain able to make decisions like a single organism. If individuals act out, the group as a whole suffers. A narrow range of behavior allows the group to climb the mountain as safely as possible.
You can see how useful wilderness programs are to therapeutic boarding schools. When the danger of acting independently rises beyond a certain threshold, a group intelligence is formed. This happens much faster in the great outdoors than in the school itself where a student's basic needs are provided for.
Yah, I hear you. I've gone up in "avalanche conditions," dead winter. But I think most people, kids included, would respond naturally to the needs of the situation. That kind of thing is in the spirit of cooperation and the need to survive as intact as possible. But the mod behaviorists add a component of mean-spirited punitiveness to the equation that would be totally unnecessary if their motives were "pure." What the hell is the point of the raps and talks and seminars en route? Gimme a break.
But I am guessing the point of your post was really to underscore the groupthink and conformity necessary under said extreme conditions. Kind of what I was trying to say with "environmental vocabulary," but I think you said it much better and certainly more clearly.
The raps, talks, and seminars are in fact the most important component that enable a smooth transfer of the lessons in groupthink learned outdoors back into the school environment.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Ursus on December 10, 2007, 03:54:17 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
The thing is though that there is a philosophical pattern within the industry of dismissing complaints whether it be toward wilderness or tbs and the irrelevant whinings of the weak. The fact that this attitude is mean spirited is one thing, but it leads to serious injury and death as the complaints of such kids are ignored. It does not seem coincidental to me that Ina August and Gina score were both overweight. Or that Aaron Bacon was described as being cerebal and scornful of the anti intellectual philosophy of his program. I am sure kids who dont fit this sort of Jock culture have it tougher than some of their peers at wilderness. Given that such programs are meant to cater to problematic young people with health or drug issues then why is it in your opinion that the "fat asses" don't come away healed? Afterall some such kids go to summer camp when they are younger and do hate some of the activities. But because the experience is meant to be about fun they also can often find lots to enjoy. Usually a kid who hates soccer can be convinced to have a kick because in 20 minutes they will be doing something they like. What does not happen is being forced to do the unpleasant thing all day every day. Their failures or personal preferences in some activities are not seen as character flaws.
I agree with you that western kids on the whole probably could stand to get more exercise all round. Their parents could also stock their homes far more healthily than is the general trend. When I was a kid even a decade ago it was far more common to see kids hitting balls on suburban streets and a bike was more or less the average 10 year old's car. But nobody is forcing mum and dad to shit in the woods and do things they hate until they are claiming a good time. This is because as adults they have the right to refuse. Even in the cases where wilderness is not downright abusive the psychology behind it is crude and meanspirited
Oz girl
I'm not sure that I would agree with you, Oz girl, that the psychology behind it is inherently crude and mean spirited. Certainly it does seem as though the way it is put into practice these days IS, in fact, crude and mean spirited, but I don't think it started out that way. At least, I hope not.
Myself, I feel pretty damn comfortable not knowing of any human presence within 10 square miles of me. People can be so cruel and eviscerating sometimes. I'd just as soon not deal with them if I can at all avoid it. As harsh as Mother Nature can be, she seems to have her criteria based on more dispassionate motives. There is no ulterior motive, it is just survival and inherent basic needs. 'Tis a pity that wilderness "therapy" does not, apparently, have these same goals or outlook...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Ursus on December 10, 2007, 04:06:16 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
The raps, talks, and seminars are in fact the most important component that enable a smooth transfer of the lessons in groupthink learned outdoors back into the school environment.
Statements like that make me want to retire from the human race. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm recognizing exactly what you are saying, and I am disgusted and depressed about the current reality of it.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2007, 04:12:16 AM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
The raps, talks, and seminars are in fact the most important component that enable a smooth transfer of the lessons in groupthink learned outdoors back into the school environment.
Statements like that make me want to retire from the human race. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm recognizing exactly what you are saying, and I am disgusted and depressed about the current reality of it.
Here's a song to cheer you up. Yalla, I'm out of here. Peace, Mr. Bear.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Ursus on December 10, 2007, 04:28:49 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
The raps, talks, and seminars are in fact the most important component that enable a smooth transfer of the lessons in groupthink learned outdoors back into the school environment.
Statements like that make me want to retire from the human race. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm recognizing exactly what you are saying, and I am disgusted and depressed about the current reality of it.
Here's a song to cheer you up. Yalla, I'm out of here. Peace, Mr. Bear.
Peace to you too, my man. I'm outta here myself; it's getting late. And thanks for the good tune. Hope I didn't "mistreat you" too much in our discussion tonight...
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Oz girl on December 10, 2007, 06:35:25 AM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
I'm not sure that I would agree with you, Oz girl, that the psychology behind it is inherently crude and mean spirited. Certainly it does seem as though the way it is put into practice these days IS, in fact, crude and mean spirited, but I don't think it started out that way. At least, I hope not.
Myself, I feel pretty damn comfortable not knowing of any human presence within 10 square miles of me. People can be so cruel and eviscerating sometimes. I'd just as soon not deal with them if I can at all avoid it. As harsh as Mother Nature can be, she seems to have her criteria based on more dispassionate motives. There is no ulterior motive, it is just survival and inherent basic needs. 'Tis a pity that wilderness "therapy" does not, apparently, have these same goals or outlook...
Well I certainly think that sometimes the idea that is sold is not meanspirited. I can genunely see what some parents see in wilderness. The fresh air, a chance to get away from a probably tense home for a bit and a chance to talk things out with an independent adult all seem pretty good. But then on the other hand so many wilderness places market the idea that kids are assholes who need everything they get comfort from taken away. This coupled with the idea that those who don't love wilderness are lazy/weak/druggies is what I meant by inherently mean and draconian. To me the thought of tactics like the entire group stopping when one kid cant or wont move is not positive peer culture at all. It is the kind of pressure that makes a potentially sick or exhausted kid go on when they really should not. This and "rewarding" kids with food or punishing them with a lack thereof.
I am afraid we are opposites in terms of solitude. I need the noise and mess of the huddled masses around me. It took me till age 26 to understand that shyness is not a character flaw
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2007, 06:02:18 PM
sometimes stopping isnt feasable, for example if you're 2-3 miles away from the nearest campsite and the sun is starting to set. or what if that one kid stops because he gets an asthma attack?
Usually the kids get pushed and they turn out fine. if no one is there to push them, they may never realize that they are able to do something. when they complain and get pushed, but pull through and make it they feel an overwhelming sense of accomplishment.
What IS an issue is medical pre-screening and proper training for staff to recognize serious ailments, and distinguish the difference between exhaustion and a serious problem, and also training for proper first aid beyond what you would get at a cpr class. Like army medic type training. I think there should be physical requirements for groups, and that kids with simmilar physical abilities should be grouped together. e.g if you can run a 15 min mile, group A, 10min mile, group b, 5min mile, group c, and if you cant make a mile in 20 minuits you cant be admitted.
you also have to understand that in many wildernesses, eating more than "trail food", and even having acsess to roads or an airlift, is a luxury. When i was in outward bound, we travelled 290 miles across the boundry waters in minissota zig-zagging across the border for a month. during most of the trip, we were over a hundred miles away from a road. The park service doesnt like to do airlifts unless it's a life-threatening emergency situation, and they usually charge a fourtune for it anyway because getting there is so difficult. they cant use helicopters, so they have to use this little plane i think they call a pondskipper, and only a small percentage of the lakes are big enough for it to land. we had to carry everything in and out, we had to carry ALL our food from the start. try being very well-fed if you have to carry around all your food. One of the kids in my group broke his arm - i'm no doctor but it looked really messed up. we coulnt get an airlift, so the counselors fashioned a splint from a set of broken paddles we found, set his arm, gave him emergency morphine, and we stopped for the day. we hiked and conoed around 40 miles, which took us three days carrying the injured kid's stuff, untill we met a counselor who took the kid and canoed another 3 days untill he got to a road where there was an ambulace waiting for him.
this is normal. this is what happens in the wilderness. if you cant deal with it, if you are not physically and mentally capable of enduring it, you have no bussiness being out there and you should have been screened out.
outward bound sends a list of excersizes and tells you what to expect, and how physically fit you should be, and an explination that if you cannot fullfill the physical requirements you should not go, months before the departure of your expedition.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Oz girl on December 10, 2007, 07:54:39 PM
These kids do not get a choice as to whether they get to go. As a result there is understandable resentment. Staff then have no way of knowing as a result whether a kid is in real need of medical treatment or not. This idea that "if it is just exhaustion" a kid should be pushed till they get a sense of accomplishment is a part of the flawed mentality I referred to in my previous post. Nobody without medical training knows where somebody else's limits are physically or emotionally. No caring adult professional should be so cavaler about it, particularly with kids who are sent because their families feel there are real or imagined drug, behavioral or mental health issues.
If a program as reputable as outward bound admits that help is so difficult to access that on the ground staff are having to administer a pretty hard core drug like morphine to a kid and splint a break themselves then this really indicates how many dangers there are. Your post had made me think that even if an untroubled kid wanted to do outward bound I would be thinking twice.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2007, 10:49:03 PM
The wilderness can be very therapeutic, for people who choose that experience. Lack of choice greatly undermines the value it. But knowing that you are going to be sent to a behavior mod facility right after wilderness is even worse -- it completely destroys the benefit of any personal insights you might have gained by spending some weeks away from civilization.
How did wilderness therapy ever get teamed up with behavior mod shitpits in the first place? They are almost opposites.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2007, 01:29:47 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
If a program as reputable as outward bound admits that help is so difficult to access that on the ground staff are having to administer a pretty hard core drug like morphine to a kid and splint a break themselves then this really indicates how many dangers there are. Your post had made me think that even if an untroubled kid wanted to do outward bound I would be thinking twice.
It all depends on where you are. there are certain expeditions which only last a few days, or are in easily accessable areas. every expedition has it's own unique risks. no matter where you go, the wilderness can be an unforgiving environment. unless you're ready for it, you simply shouldnt even bother. morphine or other painkillers are always a good idea to bring on longer expeditions in more remote areas. BTW it's not a "hardcore drug", your using weasel words. Its standard practice to be treated with an opiate immediately after a fracture. the e.m.s usually administers hydrocodone or oxycodone for this occasion, which is actually more powerfull than morphine. i really doubt it's policy to bring it, but alot of people bring it just in case. you never know - you could trip and break your spine, impale yourself on a tree limb, shit happens, and since an ambulance cant be around to administer first aid, the counselors need to know how and be prepared to do it.
ozgirl, i think you're at risk for becoming a helicopter parent. if an UNtroubled kid in good physical condition WANTS to go, you should most definitely let them. Kids are put themselves in more danger playing football or skateboarding than they do anywhere in the wilderness besides the most extreme environments. you must always be prepared for the worst, but never expect it to happen or else it will.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Ursus on December 11, 2007, 02:03:46 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Usually the kids get pushed and they turn out fine. if no one is there to push them, they may never realize that they are able to do something. when they complain and get pushed, but pull through and make it they feel an overwhelming sense of accomplishment.
What is called "pushing" by Outward Bound, at least by its original incarnation, is a hell of a lot different than "pushing" according to what a lot of programs out there these days effect. If you want kids to derive some life-changing benefit from pushing themselves to the limit, you've got to BELIEVE in them first. Yeah, everybody's got reserves they don't know exist, but what's the worth of punishing them for not knowing them before they even start? This is a really horrible mindset to go out into the wilderness with. No wonder there are so many fatalities and mishaps.
Quote from: ""Guest""
The wilderness can be very therapeutic, for people who choose that experience. Lack of choice greatly undermines the value it. But knowing that you are going to be sent to a behavior mod facility right after wilderness is even worse -- it completely destroys the benefit of any personal insights you might have gained by spending some weeks away from civilization.
How did wilderness therapy ever get teamed up with behavior mod shitpits in the first place? They are almost opposites.
The world is so fucked up. People will control you any way they can. Again, this is so utterly depressing, I can hardly comment. It's like someone slandering your mother's virtue. I am so sorry these behav modpits have discovered this pulpit from which to screech their sermons, because they have utterly defiled something that I am now a bit reticent to admit to seriously caring about. Is there nothing sacred anymore?
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Oz girl on December 11, 2007, 05:30:00 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
It all depends on where you are. there are certain expeditions which only last a few days, or are in easily accessable areas. every expedition has it's own unique risks. no matter where you go, the wilderness can be an unforgiving environment. unless you're ready for it, you simply shouldnt even bother. morphine or other painkillers are always a good idea to bring on longer expeditions in more remote areas. BTW it's not a "hardcore drug", your using weasel words. Its standard practice to be treated with an opiate immediately after a fracture. the e.m.s usually administers hydrocodone or oxycodone for this occasion, which is actually more powerfull than morphine. i really doubt it's policy to bring it, but alot of people bring it just in case. you never know - you could trip and break your spine, impale yourself on a tree limb, shit happens, and since an ambulance cant be around to administer first aid, the counselors need to know how and be prepared to do it.
ozgirl, i think you're at risk for becoming a helicopter parent. if an UNtroubled kid in good physical condition WANTS to go, you should most definitely let them. Kids are put themselves in more danger playing football or skateboarding than they do anywhere in the wilderness besides the most extreme environments. you must always be prepared for the worst, but never expect it to happen or else it will.
My point was not that outward bound counsellors "push" hardcore drugs onto kids, it was that miles from any real help there is no choice but for staff who are not doctors to adminster a strong drug that is used usually in he context of an emergency room by qualified professionals. Tell me this- if you have to canoe for over 40 miles to get help because there is no way of getting access to emergency service helecoptors what do you do if a kid has an allergic reaction the morphine you have just administered? What is the precedure miles from medical help? I would doubt that most parents would be aware of an allergy to such a thing given that it is not standard practice to take it routinely so they would not mention it on any form.
Actually I am not of the wrap kids up in cotton wool school. When I was at school everyone one year did a 3 day expidition type thing. i hated it because I am not much for camping but it was not so remote that help was more than a few hours by vehicle away. Dinner did not consist of nuts and gain mix. Girls who could not handle the pace were in a slower group. One went home due to illness. Nobody was under any pressure to go on when exhausted.
I have coached youth swimming for 10 years. Helecopter parents are the bain of most coaches lives so I dont intend to be one. I know that Pushing a kid to personal best can work wonders for their self esteem. But this is a process and usually at the higher levels a reasonably sophisticated one. Kids train regularly and are also taught to listen to their own bodies. if there is a medical issue that requires more than basic first aid the kid sees a real doctor. if the coach does not feel that a kid is doing their best usually it is handled on a one on 1 basis. But Wilderness forces a group mentality where if one kid slows down the rest of the group they are resented because somebody else literally has to carry their load. This to me does not build character, it turns kids into bullys or victims. So if stopping my kid from gaining this "experience" made me too strict then i would be willing to wear their resentment for a while.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2007, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Quote from: ""Guest""
It all depends on where you are. there are certain expeditions which only last a few days, or are in easily accessable areas. every expedition has it's own unique risks. no matter where you go, the wilderness can be an unforgiving environment. unless you're ready for it, you simply shouldnt even bother. morphine or other painkillers are always a good idea to bring on longer expeditions in more remote areas. BTW it's not a "hardcore drug", your using weasel words. Its standard practice to be treated with an opiate immediately after a fracture. the e.m.s usually administers hydrocodone or oxycodone for this occasion, which is actually more powerfull than morphine. i really doubt it's policy to bring it, but alot of people bring it just in case. you never know - you could trip and break your spine, impale yourself on a tree limb, shit happens, and since an ambulance cant be around to administer first aid, the counselors need to know how and be prepared to do it.
ozgirl, i think you're at risk for becoming a helicopter parent. if an UNtroubled kid in good physical condition WANTS to go, you should most definitely let them. Kids are put themselves in more danger playing football or skateboarding than they do anywhere in the wilderness besides the most extreme environments. you must always be prepared for the worst, but never expect it to happen or else it will.
My point was not that outward bound counsellors "push" hardcore drugs onto kids, it was that miles from any real help there is no choice but for staff who are not doctors to adminster a strong drug that is used usually in he context of an emergency room by qualified professionals. Tell me this- if you have to canoe for over 40 miles to get help because there is no way of getting access to emergency service helecoptors what do you do if a kid has an allergic reaction the morphine you have just administered? What is the precedure miles from medical help? I would doubt that most parents would be aware of an allergy to such a thing given that it is not standard practice to take it routinely so they would not mention it on any form.
Actually I am not of the wrap kids up in cotton wool school. When I was at school everyone one year did a 3 day expidition type thing. i hated it because I am not much for camping but it was not so remote that help was more than a few hours by vehicle away. Dinner did not consist of nuts and gain mix. Girls who could not handle the pace were in a slower group. One went home due to illness. Nobody was under any pressure to go on when exhausted.
I have coached youth swimming for 10 years. Helecopter parents are the bain of most coaches lives so I dont intend to be one. I know that Pushing a kid to personal best can work wonders for their self esteem. But this is a process and usually at the higher levels a reasonably sophisticated one. Kids train regularly and are also taught to listen to their own bodies. if there is a medical issue that requires more than basic first aid the kid sees a real doctor. if the coach does not feel that a kid is doing their best usually it is handled on a one on 1 basis. But Wilderness forces a group mentality where if one kid slows down the rest of the group they are resented because somebody else literally has to carry their load. This to me does not build character, it turns kids into bullys or victims. So if stopping my kid from gaining this "experience" made me too strict then i would be willing to wear their resentment for a while.
You have to be under the supervision of or a licensed MD to administer morphine. To do so as a private individual invites a buttraping so profound your great grand children assholes will hurt.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2007, 09:32:47 AM
Quote
You have to be under the supervision of or a licensed MD to administer morphine. To do so as a private individual invites a buttraping so profound your great grand children assholes will hurt.
Programmies going to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for illegal dispensation of controlled substances?
The Irony Train ALWAYS wins!!
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2007, 12:48:37 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You have to be under the supervision of or a licensed MD to administer morphine.
Given the societal pressures exerted by the Drug Warrior system, even the doctors don't want to administer it, even when it is badly needed and explicitly called for. I had morphine once. I can attest to its wondrous efficacy.
My hand had been ripped open by an animal. I called my doctor's office and told them exactly what happened, and spelled out that I knew there was "nerve damage," and that I needed go to the ER. This was one of those piss-ass HMOs that won't cover anything unless you get their okay first. I guess I sounded too calm over the phone, they wouldn't okay an ambulance. I had to walk a mile to the doctor's office. It was a brisk cold morning, and the next town over, but somehow I made it there.
I had to sit in the waiting room for 15 minutes, bleeding through my paper towels to the point where I was making a mess on the furniture, and the other folks were starting to move away from me. Then I was shown into one of the examination rooms, given a bowl of peroxide placed on the countertop, and directed to dunk my hand in it. The stuff immediately foamed up to a height of 10 inches and was downright hot. The person left.
After about half an hour, another person came in and scolded me for "contaminating" the counter top with my bodily fluids. I was also scolded for the inappropriate choice of dunking solution. Another bowl, this time filled with Betadine, was placed on the examination bench, and I was directed to continue dunking. At some point that morning, I managed to convince someone that I really needed the examination bench to lie down on.
Two and a half hours after arriving at the doctor's office, I was finally seen by a doctor, for about 10 minutes, with most of that time being spent by the doctor giving anatomy lessons to a resident and assorted other interested personnel whilst poking through the remaining moving parts in my thumb. "Oh, we can't take care of that here, the nerve trunk has been completely severed. See, here's what's left of it..." (poke, dig, poke) "And the tendon's pretty shot, too... Looks like that is cut about 70% through." (poke, poke, poke). My hand was loosely bandaged up, I was directed to go to such and such a hospital across town (there was another one 2 blocks from this place, but I guess they didn't contract out to them), and sent on my way.
Yup. You read correctly. I could barely stand at this point. After much haggling in disbelief, I was finally furnished with a taxi voucher. At the hospital, I only had to wait about 20 minutes before I was given a bed, but another hour before the doctor got to me. Again, more poking and anatomy lessons for residents and curious ER personnel. Then, the doctor got on the phone with my HMO with the course of action he had planned for my hand. I heard some exclamations of disbelief on his part, and much screaming about "THIS is what's wrong with the American health care system today!" and "this person needs to be operated on NOW! IMMEDIATELY!" The phone was slammed down and he came back to my bedside. "I'm sorry, they sent you to the wrong hospital. I will call an ambulance to have you transported to the hospital they want..." As it had now been about 6 hours since the mishap, and I had as yet to receive any kind of pain killer, he took pity on me and gave me a small shot of Demoral to tide me over.
It was an hour before the ambulance came (I guess my HMO only used a certain company). By now, there was rush hour traffic to contend with. While en route to the second hospital (the next town over), the drivers got lost. It was another hour before we got there. The Demoral had long worn off. I felt every careening turn and screech of the brakes with great intimacy.
I had to wait about 30 minutes before I was seen, and then the circus started all over again. This was a major teaching hospital, and there were several tiers of residents, each in turn taking my history, opening up my hand, poking and examining, closing it up again, each as if it had never been done before, let alone by someone who was on the other side of that curtain. I guess they needed to practice "intake."
Eventually it was discovered that I had not been given any antibiotics. I had long passed the point of remembering to ask for them. The previous hospital had wanted to administer them but my HMO had objected, presumably to avoid confusion. It had now been 10 hours since my hand was mauled. While the IV was being set up to administer them, the Head Resident informed me that since so much time had elapsed sans antibiotics, they would be unable to operate on the nerve 'till the tendon had healed. He directed one of the lower minions to clean and close up my hand, once again, and I began to get the impression that that was going to be it. I asked about pain killers; he mumbled something about a prescription. And then one of them jostled my hand for the last time.
My scream began low, almost a guttural moan, but became louder as time progressed and I began to experience the therapeutic effects from finally vocalizing my pain... No more Mr. Nice Guy, no more keeping a stiff upper lip, no more cooperation with the teaching of future ranks of M.D.s... I had HAD it! And, man, did that feel good. After about 5 minutes of sustaining bellowing, they finally gave me morphine to shut me up. But it was several minutes more before they experienced any auditory relief. I was that far gone with pain.
Jeff Beck/Going Down/1983 (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPirYDvwM30)
"the arms' concert@MSG 9th dec 1983. jeff beck/guitar ron wood/guitar jan hammer/keyboards fernand sanders/bass simon phillips/drums kenny jones/keyboards"
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2007, 07:13:45 PM
that sucks.
I have freinds that skate alot...and therefore get injured alot. each with a few broken bones under their belt. each time any of them had a broken bone, an ambulace got there within 20min and one of the first things they did every time (other than ask if they were allergic to anything, or have any serious condition) was administer a painkiller. but they also had good health coverage and their parents were able to pay for any other medical expenses out of pocket.
I know that in central maine, where i spend quite a bit of time every year, they give out painkillers (especially oxycontin) like candy. any complaint of pain and you'll get a script from most doctors. and it's so easy to get it illegally there too. if you have money, there is absolutely no reason you'd even need to go to the hospital if say, your back hurts like hell. just ask one of your neighbors for a pill.
I also spent some time in a swiss boarding school. the nurse had a ready supply of adderall, codeine, vicodin, and xanax at her disposal. it wasnt used very liberally, but they gave it out for only the reasons they are supposed to be used for without really asking any questions. I slammed my fist into a wall once and the nurse gave me vicodin for 3 days. when i was sick with bronchitis, i got codeine. when my cat died at home, i got a xanax, and if a teacher sent you out of class for drifting off to sleep, or need help studying....you get adderall.
There are a number of countries where you can get opiates over the counter. i know in most of the EU (and england untill recently) you can walk into a pharmacy and buy a pack of 30 15mg codeine pills for $5 - just tell them you have an itchy cough. there are also a number stong opiate solutions and tinctures (some containing morphine) available by request with permission from a pharmacist. This means you can walk in and ask for it, and it's up to the pharmacist to decide weather or not you need it. they never give it out to people who dont need it - if you look the slightest bit like a druggie forget about it. you need to be in absolute dire need of it, and usually you need to establish prior trust and repore with the pharmacist. the other catch is that the codeine pills are usually so loaded with a second ingredient, someone with any tolerance would get sick before they get high. the solutions are also very tiny doses dissolved in a very large volume of liquid, usually also mixed with another ingredient which either tastes really nasty or will make you sick if you drink too much.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Oz girl on December 12, 2007, 05:23:54 AM
Codiene is an opiate? you can get headache pills here with codene in them but if it is a high dose you need a dr script. Morphine though is used in hospitals for pretty hardcore pain like cancer and broken bones. It would be considered pretty wierd for a non dr to give it to someone
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 12, 2007, 10:51:58 AM
yes, codeine is an opiate. it's one of the three main constituents of raw opium - codeine, morphine, and thebaine. the U.S is one of the only countries where no opiates whatsoever are available over the counter, other than poppy seeds or kratom.
codeine is pretty strong depending on dose. i weigh 210 and 60-75mg can put me into a nod.
you live in canada, right? it think codeine is available there as tylenol3 its a acetaminophen500mg/codeine15mg mix. you can only take a few before you poison yourself with the scetaminophen, although you can easily separate the two ingredients. codeine dissolves in cold water, acetaminophen doesnt.
codeine is used for a variety of purposes - colds, coughs, sleep, along with pain. it's the world's best cough suppressant. DXM is the inverse of the codeine molecule, which is why it also works as a cough suppressant - although the two are otherwise unrelated drugs.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Anonymous on December 12, 2007, 03:43:16 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
considered pretty wierd for a non dr to give it to someone
america is the only country where a pharmacist's job has been reduced to sorting pills and filling out paperwork. in most other countries, like france and england for example, the pharmacist has almost as much training as a doctor, although they study more chemistry and less biology, and dont spend as much time as interns/residents. they are trained to diagnose less severe illnesses, and distribute medication, although most medications still require a doctors prescription. Ambulace drivers in the u.s are also fairly pathetic - most other developed countries ambulance drivers have actual medical training, and dont just drive around and fill out paperwork. they can respond to a complaint, diagnose, medicate and leave the patient at home if it's something minor - no need to go to the hospital and spend 12 hours dealing with the beurocracy over chest pains. in the U.S, they cant do much except give you oxygen, cpr, defibrilate, and administer other first aid. they carry certain drugs too, but using one pill involves hours of paperwork so they tend not to do it unless, say, someone has a gunshot wound to the stomach.
Title: Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately
Post by: Oz girl on December 12, 2007, 03:49:48 PM