Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 01, 2007, 08:28:40 PM
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At 18 you supposedly have all these rights. However, the torture cults and the "parents" who put you in them use all sorts of tactics to prevent you from excerizing these rights. They extend custody, they seize control of inheritances and other monies that legally belong to you, they use trickery to continue controlling and exploiting you.
Did you encounter any such trickery and manipulations that were abetted by brain/emotional damage that comes with having your brain restructured through brain washing?
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Kids don't deserve no goddamn rights, cuz they ain't no better than a bunch of fuckin NIGGERS! If mine ever try to "assert their rights" I'm gonna drag 'em out t' the woodshed and tear up their uppity little asses!
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Do you know of anyone who was manipulated into staying post-program?
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You don’t need anything at age 18… get yourself a student loan… a room in the basement of some older couple who will be nice to you as long as you like their dog….. study your butt off for 4 years or 6 years at college…or get a entry level job and work your way up for a few years and then strike out on your own with an apartment, car etc.
Screw the inheritance and extended custody crap… once you are of legal age you are in control of your own life and life is good when you are at the helm!!
...
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At 18 you supposedly have all these rights. However, the torture cults and the "parents" who put you in them use all sorts of tactics to prevent you from excerizing these rights. They extend custody, they seize control of inheritances and other monies that legally belong to you, they use trickery to continue controlling and exploiting you.
Did you encounter any such trickery and manipulations that were abetted by brain/emotional damage that comes with having your brain restructured through brain washing?
At this point, why not walk away from the "inheritance and any money that may legally belongs to you?" There are other ways to go to college, or to live on your own; or you could join the military. Why accept being controlled and exploited?
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Do you know of anyone who was manipulated into staying post-program?
I was manipulated into signing myself into the program , post program when I turned 18 years of age.
-DP
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Do you know of anyone who was manipulated into staying post-program?
I was manipulated into signing myself into the program , post program when I turned 18 years of age.
-DP
how did that happen? What tricks?
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At 18 you supposedly have all these rights. However, the torture cults and the "parents" who put you in them use all sorts of tactics to prevent you from excerizing these rights. They extend custody, they seize control of inheritances and other monies that legally belong to you, they use trickery to continue controlling and exploiting you.
Did you encounter any such trickery and manipulations that were abetted by brain/emotional damage that comes with having your brain restructured through brain washing?
At this point, why not walk away from the "inheritance and any money that may legally belongs to you?" There are other ways to go to college, or to live on your own; or you could join the military. Why accept being controlled and exploited?
I'm saying, dipshit, that unethical manipulation tactics are used to control youth: stealing, lying, abandoning. This is evil regardless of possible conduits for escape available to youth. These manipulation tactics are used on top of previously imposed mental damage, and are effective control devices for program kids in a way they are not for a normal 18 year old, who has experience outside of an institution. In iredland there was a religious organization- the magdalen sisters- where young girls were imprisoned by their parents. Even though they could legally go at 18 100s of thousands(alot anyway) wound up living their entire lives as slaves. They became "institutionalized", brain damaged, brainwashed etc.
Keeping them prisoner was further enabled by a series of manipulations and fear tactics, similar tactics applied to the vulnerable damaged youth of programs
(And joining the military is a horrific suggestion for escaping an abusive atmosphere.) Also, keeping monies away from youth ensures a level of protection for parent and program, as you need money to buy justice. I'm curious about the techniques used
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At 18 you supposedly have all these rights. However, the torture cults and the "parents" who put you in them use all sorts of tactics to prevent you from excerizing these rights. They extend custody, they seize control of inheritances and other monies that legally belong to you, they use trickery to continue controlling and exploiting you.
Did you encounter any such trickery and manipulations that were abetted by brain/emotional damage that comes with having your brain restructured through brain washing?
At this point, why not walk away from the "inheritance and any money that may legally belongs to you?" There are other ways to go to college, or to live on your own; or you could join the military. Why accept being controlled and exploited?
I'm saying, dipshit, that unethical manipulation tactics are used to control youth: stealing, lying, abandoning. This is evil regardless of possible conduits for escape available to youth.
These manipulation tactics are used on top of previously imposed mental damage, and are effective control devices for program kids in a way they are not for a normal 18 year old, who has experience outside of an institution. In iredland there was a religious organization- the magdalen sisters- where young girls were imprisoned by their parents. Even though they could legally go at 18 100s of thousands(alot anyway) wound up living their entire lives as slaves. They became "institutionalized", brain damaged, brainwashed etc.
Keeping them prisoner was further enabled by a series of manipulations and fear tactics, similar tactics applied to the vulnerable damaged youth of programs[/quote]
Well. When asking "why" about an over 18 program, treat it like a cult. Read Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our Midst". At Benchmark Young Adult School, they use most of the techinques she describes to keep people there against their will. Even benchmark's own website states that kids do not want to be there, yet they still claim it's voluntary. What they mean is they coerce volition (an oxymoron if there ever was one). Eventually your cage is the safe place, outside of which you will inevitably end up dead, insane, or in jail.
The first day I arrived I sat in group and was asked where I came from, my name, and why I was there. I said "to finish high school". That wasn't enough. I was told "why are you really here"... etc.. eventually I began to accept their imposition that I was damaged in the head, an alcoholic (even though I had only gotten really drunk once before that, at the age of 18, in Ireland where it was legal). Eventually they convinced me to re-interpret the significance of factual events to portray myself as headed down the wrong path, inevitably headed for self-destruction.
I would ask "since you don't seem to care for what reason somebody is here, is anybody ever here for no "issue' at all, and what if I don't see myself as having any "issue" that I feel I want to have fixed. Isn't it my choice. I came here to finish high school."? I was told "if you didn't have a problem you wouldn't be here." You weren't considered to be "working your program until" you started to taking the "First Step" (in benchmark's eyes) of admitting you did have an issue (even if you didn't). To this end, you needed to find a way to re-interpret your past in a manner that was "truthful" enough for the staff. It wasn't the facts that changed (though sometimes they did) as much as it was the interpretation and the significance of those events. I confessed a little, and I got rewarded a little, etc. The worse you made yourself out to seem the better it was for you. Self-deprecation was the theme of program success. Why? Confessions are a lot more powerful than bad reports in convincing the parents that:
A: you have a problem that is far worse than they thought and cannot control yourself and cannot be given too much freedom... This convinces parents that coming home is not tenable.
B: you are coming clean with your dirt (no coincidence in this loaded language. Past elements of your life are to be associated with "bad".). This means that you have taken the "first step" in addmitting to your "problem". This convince parents that Benchmark is the right place.
Social pressure:
What else? Everybody around you had to pretend as well, "fake it to make it" and you really never knew who was faking it, who you could trust, or who really wanted to leave. If you didn't fake it, you were isolated in a motel for "negativity". They used this to maintain an environment resembling a pro-program cheerleading section (which does a number on your head).
Parental Threats:
When we attempted to get a kid out of Benchmark they gave his mother my cell phone number. When she called me, in addition to screaming at me, threatening to have me arrested (for what?!?!), and accusing me of kidnapping her son, she also told me he had "ADD and cant take care of himself." (the kid disputed this). Such small moehills turned in to mountains by programs in the minds of parents. She also told her son that if he left program she would disown him. Benchmark advertises to fix things that can't be fixed and give parents a false sense of hope that they can cling to.
Breaking?
They actually throw kids out on the streets as punisment at Benchmark (with no money, property, food, shelter, or often even identification). They say you can "leave" but make sure that you won't be successful in that attempt. Their goal is for you to hit "rock bottom" by not succeeding(engineered), convincing you that you really do need program to succeed since your life is "not working" without it.
They did it to me. I was on the streets thinking of what I could do and where I could go in an area that was very dangerous (che can witness to this). I had no money, no resources. I knew I could possibly call the cops and get some of my property (or ID) back, but I had no guarantee that would be successful. The staff kept telling me that I signed away my rights when I came to program and I considered it a possibility (until later, when I found out better by an ill-placed contract-law book in the Benchmark library (which was confiscated, BTW, after I started informing other students of their rights. I was also put in Motel isolation)). Furthermore, I also considered it a possibility that if I really tried, they would let me graduate. As it got colder, and I got hungrier, and the sun set and it was dark I began to become afraid. Program was so comfortable. Everything was so structured, at least it was safer than the streets... I began to think perhaps I did need the program to succeed. I began to think there was something wrong with me that I couldn't make it.
I thought then that the reason I wasn't getting my level two or advancing in program was because I wasn't being sincere enough in what I chose to disclose, how much trust i gave others, how much I gave in to the program etc. They lied to me. Why should I have trusted them. Despite this, I believed they could tell if I was faking it. I came to believe that the only way for me to succeed was to truly do everything they wanted me to... give up my will to the program and be open (even though I didn't feel safe enough to disclose anything of import). I saw how much Friendship Workshop (LGAT) moved people around me yet felt relatively unaffected when I took it. Why? Because I didn't feel comfortable enough and did not want anybody to change me. Did I need to change? Irrelevant, (and no, in my opinion). There was no informed consent. I was not told it was necessary when I came to Benchmark. I felt fine. Is feeling fine so bad. Is having disagreements with parents so abnormal. Is rebellion not a natural part of growing up. It is not a disease.
So I gave myself fully to the program, cutting my identity off and letting it rot as i forget who I was. "old me", "new me". I and Me, etc. "We all wear masks" (meant to be interpreted literally, as in "you are fake and you don't even know it since you've been pretending so long".... etc..) Let "down your walls", take "down those shields", etc... I thought I was a fake person and they could help me find the "real me" It was almost a religious conversion experience. I felt dazed for weeks afterwards, tearing myself up, questioning everything about my identity and (with the subtle guidance of the staff) re-defining who I should be. I literally saw myself as two people (one bad, one good) and this sort of thinking was encouraged by the program through innumerable exercises. They overloaded you with feelings of emotion using games and told you that you never truly felt before...
Then I found out that they were just fucking with me. When I truly gave myself to the program, and even then was not allowed to succeed... When they kept lying to me... I snapped out (enough, there are multiple aspects and levels to the belief system. It's layered.), and hell broke loose (but that's another story altogether).
Jobs, etc?
Benchmark does let students (level 2s and certain motel students) get jobs however the catch is they require you to sign over our paycheck to program. It's justified to more or less "keep you safe from yourself", (further implying that you can't control yourself), so you don't go out and buy drugs or relapse on anxiety disorder or your given "issue". We were sent to AA meetings and told to replace the word alcohol with our "issue", regardless of how absurd a fit it was. Again, A convenient gospel of powerlessness, portraying you as having problems you can't control and the program itself as the ultimate "higher power" that could fix you if you gave in fully and "let go and let god/program".
(And joining the military is a horrific suggestion for escaping an abusive atmosphere.) Also, keeping monies away from youth ensures a level of protection for parent and program, as you need money to buy justice.
Keeps the lawsuits low. When you're struggling to survive (and most likely blame it on yourself) you most likely aren't interested in suing the program.
I'm curious about the techniques used
Hope this answers some of those questions. They had the practical angles covered pretty damn well (no homeless shelters, high crime area, deprivation of resources, etc...) as well as psychological angles (hollow carrot on a stick, pummeled self-confidence, fear, etc...) By no means is this complete, but that's a smattering of some of the techniques used.
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yes, I would say that everything you say is spot on.
when my daughter refused to cooperate at TBS and eventually walked off campus, the school called us and told us to 'call the escorts STAT and "get her back to wilderness and then to a RTC lockdown" since obviously she hadn't bought into the program and is a danger to others and herself. Put her into a lockdown.... WTF
What was hilarious is is they had someone watching her non-stop while she sat right off the property line.
we refused to call escorts. we refused said TBS advice. We flew up, got her and I had the peer group leader call us spineless for caving in and rescuing her out of that cult helllhole.
our error was even listening to the 'struggling teen' scam in the first place.
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yes, I would say that everything you say is spot on.
when my daughter refused to cooperate at TBS and eventually walked off campus, the school called us and told us to 'call the escorts STAT and "get her back to wilderness and then to a RTC lockdown" since obviously she hadn't bought into the program and is a danger to others and herself. Put her into a lockdown.... WTF
What was hilarious is is they had someone watching her non-stop while she sat right off the property line.
we refused to call escorts. we refused said TBS advice. We flew up, got her and I had the peer group leader call us spineless for caving in and rescuing her out of that cult helllhole.
our error was even listening to the 'struggling teen' scam in the first place.
Be advised your refusal to comply with the cult's expectation may have postive long term effects on your daughter.
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yeah all that's transpired since: testing out of high school and enrolling in community college, being herself with postive philosphies/critical thinking is everything the TBS warned against. :-?
We're fortunate we have a relationship with her.
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Do you know of anyone who was manipulated into staying post-program?
I was manipulated into signing myself into the program , post program when I turned 18 years of age.
-DP
how did that happen? What tricks?
Well, the program making my parents tell me that I would have no place to live for starters.
-DP
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They must have an Idiot's Guide for Programs. They use the same leverage/intimidation ploy at Benchmark and I've seen it used at Three Springs.
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I got pregnant within a few months of 'graduating' Straight. For the next almost 20 years my parents and my ex-husband's parents (we married, I got pregnant again and divorced him when my youngest was 11 months old) had me by the balls. When I first left my ex, we were renting a house from his parents so obviously I was the one to go. My father was so militant program that he refused to let me in his house and talked my mother into doing the same. My ex was doing crack, I didn't like it so I left. I had started drinking again (this was now about 3 or 4 years after getting out) so I was hauled into family court not by my husband but by his parents and my father working together. My dad even hired an attorney who's partner was on the board of Straight. All the judge needed to hear was that I was once in a drug program and was now drinking. Custody was given to the grandparents. They split the girls up, my oldest going with my dad and his wife (also a program parent) and my youngest going to my ex's parents. They dragged it out for almost 3 years......every little thing I did they dragged me into court. Even after I got them back they would either take me to court or threaten to if I wasn't towing the program line. It was horrible. A therapist later told me that I lived in a constant state of fear for damn near 20 years. Once I had that initial "diagnosis" of an addict (although I wasn't one. The "diagnosis" was Miller Newton looking at my eyes on intake and concluding that I had done loads of cocaine. I hadn't even seen it yet) I was screwed. They could make shit up, exaggerate minor mistakes that all parents make and in general control my life through the threats of taking my children again. I think that was the hardest part to get passed when I begun to reconnect with my father.
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They must have an Idiot's Guide for Programs. They use the same leverage/intimidation ploy at Benchmark and I've seen it used at Three Springs.
And you're just now realizing this?
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They must have an Idiot's Guide for Programs. They use the same leverage/intimidation ploy at Benchmark
Yup. This mother threatened to disown her son if he went with us. They even gave her my dad's cell phone number in France (god knows how they got that). Family pressure is a great way to gain compliance.
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This mother threatened to disown her son if he went with us.
Only logical reply: "Done deal, fuck you mom"
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This mother threatened to disown her son if he went with us.
Only logical reply: "Done deal, fuck you mom"
Only thing is, the kids locked up aren't normal teen hellions. They're torture victims who suffer deliberately induced "learned helplessness".
They have an unnatural dependency on their keepers.
Also, these kids don't have any one to turn to. I know non-program kids who got kicked out at 18. The thing that saved them is that they had friends to live with. Program kids do not. Survival for them on the street will mean some form of prostitution or crime, point blank. One program- desisto, was shut down because after one parent refused to take her kid back, the kid was raped and murdered. The parents sued..that was the end of the program. Most kids won't be murdered (though many will) but the trajectory for even a normal person in an abandoned on the street with no place to go situation is very bad.
A kid suffering from brain damage has an even worse trajectory, and a life of chronic bare-survival ahead of him.
I'll add that the kid I know who was kicked out is now a cocktail waitress, while her sisters who were not kicked out and abandoned went on to college and rewarding careers. She also developed a drug habit she did not have prior to be abused in that manner. Parents DO NOT HAVE THE right to shut someone up in an institution, and then use various manipulation tactics to continue hurting them.
The bravado of just tell them to fuck themselves is fun in a hypothetical sense, but in reality will not save a kid, or be applicable.
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I still had a friend or two who was there for me after I decided to take my leave, but I think the statement about program kids who want out having no one to turn to when they get away is true for the most part. Either contact is completely lost, or the program "swallows up" all the kid's friends since it's right there in the community. I think my case was different due partially to the fact that I was from out of town, and not the area where the program was located.
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This mother threatened to disown her son if he went with us.
Only logical reply: "Done deal, fuck you mom"
Only thing is, the kids locked up aren't normal teen hellions. They're torture victims who suffer deliberately induced "learned helplessness".
They have an unnatural dependency on their keepers.
Also, these kids don't have any one to turn to. I know non-program kids who got kicked out at 18. The thing that saved them is that they had friends to live with. Program kids do not. Survival for them on the street will mean some form of prostitution or crime, point blank. One program- desisto, was shut down because after one parent refused to take her kid back, the kid was raped and murdered. The parents sued..that was the end of the program. Most kids won't be murdered (though many will) but the trajectory for even a normal person in an abandoned on the street with no place to go situation is very bad.
A kid suffering from brain damage has an even worse trajectory, and a life of chronic bare-survival ahead of him.
I'll add that the kid I know who was kicked out is now a cocktail waitress, while her sisters who were not kicked out and abandoned went on to college and rewarding careers. She also developed a drug habit she did not have prior to be abused in that manner. Parents DO NOT HAVE THE right to shut someone up in an institution, and then use various manipulation tactics to continue hurting them.
The bravado of just tell them to fuck themselves is fun in a hypothetical sense, but in reality will not save a kid, or be applicable.
Excellent post. A different time, a different program, but you really could have been talking about me right there. Thanks, man.
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Anne Bonney wrote:
I was hauled into family court not by my husband but by his parents and my father working together. My dad even hired an attorney who's partner was on the board of Straight. All the judge needed to hear was that I was once in a drug program and was now drinking. Custody was given to the grandparents. They split the girls up, my oldest going with my dad and his wife (also a program parent) and my youngest going to my ex's parents.
This is so sad :(. Hope you have reconnected with your girls.
Auntie Em
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Anne Bonney wrote:
I was hauled into family court not by my husband but by his parents and my father working together. My dad even hired an attorney who's partner was on the board of Straight. All the judge needed to hear was that I was once in a drug program and was now drinking. Custody was given to the grandparents. They split the girls up, my oldest going with my dad and his wife (also a program parent) and my youngest going to my ex's parents.
This is so sad :(. Hope you have reconnected with your girls.
Auntie Em
Oh yeah! I saw them almost every day while they were with the grandparents and custody did eventually return to me, almost 3 years later. But even after that, every damn time I did something that they didn't like I was either taken back to family court or threatened with it. My ex got a DUI manslaughter a year after I left him, went to prison, got out and was court mandated to attend AA. His sponsor told him he should seek custody since he was sober and I wasn't (I was socially drinking with no problems at the time). So, for damn near 20 years I fought or was preparing to fight my ex, his parents and my father for custody of my kids. I'm telling ya, I wasn't able to truly begin to heal from all this shit until my youngest reached the age where they couldn't pull that shit anymore. It really opened my eyes to how hard and fast of a hold they had on me, even beyond the brainwashing and insular social setting I was in. Once that hold was broken I couldn't believe the amount of self esteem, control and relief I felt. It really was as though someone let me out of a cage I had been locked in for all that time.
After they were returned to me they (the ex and parents) were only able to get the kids actually pulled from the house twice more and even then they were returned within a couple of weeks with all charges being labeled 'unfounded' or 'unconfirmed'. Finally, one of the social workers told the judge that she believed my ex was using the court to try and get back at me and at least then he couldn't bother me anymore. The girls lived with me all their lives, save that first 2 1/2 years. They're 22 and 20 now and both doing very well. The oldest is a CNA for an assisted living home, working on her LPN then on to her RN. The youngest works for a local attorney while going to school. Their relationships with their father, his parents and my father will never be right. Now that they're adults and realize what was done they're pissed. My oldest daughter still toys with the idea of putting down on paper what she went through as a result of Straight. She's been surrounded by these people her entire life. Me, my ex, his parents, my mom, my dad, his wife, her two kids who were also in there, a friend they used to consider an 'aunt'.....AAGHHHHHH!!1111
The damage that these places inflict on people doesn't end when we get out. Sometimes its just the beginning of the nightmare.
:( ::mecry::
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thank you for sharing that Anne.
The reverberations of this sick, fucked-up, deceptive struggling teen industry on not only the student, but the parents and extended familly, need to be stopped.
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Anne Bonney wrote:
I was hauled into family court not by my husband but by his parents and my father working together. My dad even hired an attorney who's partner was on the board of Straight. All the judge needed to hear was that I was once in a drug program and was now drinking. Custody was given to the grandparents. They split the girls up, my oldest going with my dad and his wife (also a program parent) and my youngest going to my ex's parents.
This is so sad :(. Hope you have reconnected with your girls.
Auntie Em
Oh yeah! I saw them almost every day while they were with the grandparents and custody did eventually return to me, almost 3 years later. But even after that, every damn time I did something that they didn't like I was either taken back to family court or threatened with it. My ex got a DUI manslaughter a year after I left him, went to prison, got out and was court mandated to attend AA. His sponsor told him he should seek custody since he was sober and I wasn't (I was socially drinking with no problems at the time). So, for damn near 20 years I fought or was preparing to fight my ex, his parents and my father for custody of my kids. I'm telling ya, I wasn't able to truly begin to heal from all this shit until my youngest reached the age where they couldn't pull that shit anymore. It really opened my eyes to how hard and fast of a hold they had on me, even beyond the brainwashing and insular social setting I was in. Once that hold was broken I couldn't believe the amount of self esteem, control and relief I felt. It really was as though someone let me out of a cage I had been locked in for all that time.
After they were returned to me they (the ex and parents) were only able to get the kids actually pulled from the house twice more and even then they were returned within a couple of weeks with all charges being labeled 'unfounded' or 'unconfirmed'. Finally, one of the social workers told the judge that she believed my ex was using the court to try and get back at me and at least then he couldn't bother me anymore. The girls lived with me all their lives, save that first 2 1/2 years. They're 22 and 20 now and both doing very well. The oldest is a CNA for an assisted living home, working on her LPN then on to her RN. The youngest works for a local attorney while going to school. Their relationships with their father, his parents and my father will never be right. Now that they're adults and realize what was done they're pissed. My oldest daughter still toys with the idea of putting down on paper what she went through as a result of Straight. She's been surrounded by these people her entire life. Me, my ex, his parents, my mom, my dad, his wife, her two kids who were also in there, a friend they used to consider an 'aunt'.....AAGHHHHHH!!1111
The damage that these places inflict on people doesn't end when we get out. Sometimes its just the beginning of the nightmare.
:( ::mecry::
A similar event happened to my family in 2003. It sucks, majorly. I haven't seen two of my sisters since then, and frankly its as if they and the entire paternal side of my family fell off the face of the earth. My mother and stepdad are husks of their former selves, and I grew up way too fast. Go figure that in '04 I found out about this little travesty... and everyone I meet thinks I'm way older than I really am.
Hell, I don't even miss them. I just feel a void where a family should be.
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My dad and I didn't speak for about 5 years or so. As it stands now, he says he believes it was abusive, he's sorry it happened BUT...........what was he supposed to do? He is still of the mentality that I actually needed to be put away somewhere. Never mind that the only drugs I had done were pot and alcohol. I was the lightweight of my friends and they've all turned out just fine. I'm the only one who's had problems dealing with life.
THAT is the biggest hump we face, IMO. Parents have been so scared for all these years that the damn drug war has been going on, they've been eating up all the bullshit that's been thrown at them through DARE, the Reagan "Just Say No" days, manipulated statistics and general fear mongering to the point that damn near every kid could benefit from a program according to them. Newton even used to say that....sort of like how the AAers do. Talk about how "lucky" they are to be alcoholics because they've now been given this "knowledge" and "awareness" that "normies" don't and won't ever have. The vast majority of kids grow out of their impulsive, destructive and dangerous behaviors. Every generation scared the shit out of their parents.....this is no different.
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Many times parents can see things going on that the kids cannot. I could pick out the kids who were going to have problems with drugs and as they grew up and my guess was correct in most cases with regard to my daughter’s friends. Every child (person) is different and have different family histories also (which is a consideration). Many believe that people are predisposed to alcoholism based on family history. These types of things are what many parents are reacting to when they feel they have to protect their children.
Drugs affect each person differently, some kids can handle them…smoke and party on weekends and other kids just take it to another level and party all week allowing their studies and grades to go downhill or forming an unhealthy relationship with drugs and alcohol.
So I think most kids can get themselves thru the rough patches where others cannot and these are the hard questions that parents need to be aware of and to know when they need to take action (if ever).
...
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child (person)
You don't recognize children as human beings.
Please stop pretending.
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Many times parents can see things going on that the kids cannot. I could pick out the kids who were going to have problems with drugs and as they grew up and my guess was correct in most cases with regard to my daughter’s friends. Every child (person) is different and have different family histories also (which is a consideration). Many believe that people are predisposed to alcoholism based on family history. These types of things are what many parents are reacting to when they feel they have to protect their children.
If they'd open their minds and stop drinking the goddamn koolaid for once, they might figure out that they've been suckered for the past oh, 40 odd years into believing the bullshit. It looks like eyes are opening though. Witness DARE http://www.drugsense.org/tfy/evidence.htm (http://www.drugsense.org/tfy/evidence.htm)
The latter aspect of the ALERT evaluation illustrates a peculiar feature of school-based drug prevention research during the past 10 yearsWhatever the outcome, the recommendation is for more of the program and more evaluation. With the exception of D.A.R.E., negative findings are seldom accompanied by a suggestion that we try something else.
Drugs affect each person differently, some kids can handle them…smoke and party on weekends and other kids just take it to another level and party all week allowing their studies and grades to go downhill or forming an unhealthy relationship with drugs and alcohol.
So I think most kids can get themselves thru the rough patches where others cannot and these are the hard questions that parents need to be aware of and to know when they need to take action (if ever).
...
As I said, the vast majority of kids will come through adolescence OK. For the rare occasion that a child needs to be removed from the home there needs to be
1. Proper diagosis from a decent medical doctor, preferrably more.
2. Due process in the beginning and throughout the duration. Full access to communication with family and outside medical staff
3. Consistent monitoring of child and facility by independent entity or persons. Guardian Ad Litem for example.
for starters. What else?
Shit, I gotta git. I'm late Someone finish/fix this please. I'll try and catch up with you guys tonight.
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If they'd open their minds and stop drinking the goddamn koolaid for once, they might figure out that they've been suckered for the past oh, 40 odd years into believing the bullshit. It looks like eyes are opening though. Witness DARE http://www.drugsense.org/tfy/evidence.htm (http://www.drugsense.org/tfy/evidence.htm)
The latter aspect of the ALERT evaluation illustrates a peculiar feature of school-based drug prevention research during the past 10 yearsWhatever the outcome, the recommendation is for more of the program and more evaluation. With the exception of D.A.R.E., negative findings are seldom accompanied by a suggestion that we try something else.
So your folks were sensitive to the whole drug culture? Seems they overreacted a tad? Really sucks that they continued to go after you your whole life…its all water under the bridge now but its too bad you couldn’t of just moved away after you got custody of your kids, I not being critical... I am sure there were good reasons you stuck around.
As I said, the vast majority of kids will come through adolescence OK. For the rare occasion that a child needs to be removed from the home there needs to be
1. Proper diagosis from a decent medical doctor, preferrably more.
2. Due process in the beginning and throughout the duration. Full access to communication with family and outside medical staff
3. Consistent monitoring of child and facility by independent entity or persons. Guardian Ad Litem for example.
Seems we agree here, I wouldn’t want to see the kids too isolated or to be in a place they don’t belong without an outside set of eyes and ears reporting back to me.
...
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but thats what happens you are isolated and bullied into submission b/c you have no other choice! I was not aloud to see my mom for 11 months I was 15 and had always lived with her. I did no drugs and commited no crime before being accepted into drug treatment at a staight spin off for 2 yrs. I never saw the light of day except on Sun. when after we had to clean out foster families house we got to drive in the sun until noon when we had to be back at the program again and get screamed at for yet another round of abuse that lasted on average 16hrs a day! The really awful thing is this behavior does not get you anywhere in the world of today. maybe in the eighties you had bully sales people but this is soooo outdated. and this is the abuse we sustained in our teens. I cannot even begin to put the peices back together as some are truely lost. I'd like them back please!!! I'd lik those years and the yrs after. I'd like an appology from my stupid parent and evil step parent. I'd like my college education. I'd like retribution. I'd like most of all peace and friendships and to feel normal and whole. I realize we all have our crosses to bear and mine are a direct result of the program. And I realize there are so many crimes commited that go unpunished but that does not make them any less of a crime and does not mean that the victum suffers any less. In fact they suffer more b/c there is no aknowledgement or support. but we are still alive and what a life it is!
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what. is. your. fuckin. point. thanks.
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whats yours? and if you don't know the answer already I would be wasting my time trying to explain!
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what. is. your. fuckin. point. thanks.
Which part is giving you trouble dear?
:roll:
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Nevermind. I guess it's the writing style or something. I read it again and it kinda made sense. Stop rolling your slutty eyes at me, woman! :rofl:
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Actually, this part didn't make much sense to me:
maybe in the eighties you had bully sales people but this is soooo outdated.
Not sure what the person was trying to say, but was abuse ever something that should be considered 'en vogue'? [/quote]
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Nevermind. I guess it's the writing style or something. I read it again and it kinda made sense. Stop rolling your slutty eyes at me, woman! :rofl:
::roflmao::
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if youve ever worked in sales or specifically wall street selling stocks there was alot of hard selling and closing and even though the pace is still fast it does not consist of bullying anymore. much like collection agencies used to bully people to pay up they are no longer taught to use this tactic? i hope this clarifies my earlier statement
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if youve ever worked in sales or specifically wall street selling stocks
Sorry, never had the pleasure.
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well then that explains it! have you ever had a conversation with someone trying to sell you something? do you live on this planet?
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Fuck off.
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you started it
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Did not. :rofl: :rofl:
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in answer to the question about someone voluntarily signing in or committing to a program after age 18....
i turned 18 while i was at Hephzibah House. i told them i wanted to leave, but i was ignored and not permitted to go. i had no access to a telephone, and any incoming/outgoing letters were all read. there was at least one other girl there who was also 18. i know i was not there voluntarily...but (and now to actually answer the question)....Hephz. House is FULL of staff who are former students of the program. There is one girl who went on to marry ron williams (director) son. others are just on staff, and after they have been out of the program, they have had younger sisters who came into it. even after i wanted to leave at 18, i just quit fighting. i was what they called a "model student"...i just bided my time. but i left the second my 18 months was up. they wanted me to stay on and go to a good christian college (of their approval) and then help out at the home. fat chance!
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gabbygirl88 wrote:
Hephz. House is FULL of staff who are former students of the program.
I have been wondering about this business of many of the staff being former students. It adds to the evidence of cult behavior. Did others at other facilities find this to be true? Does "graduate" equal "get hired"?
Auntie Em
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I have been wondering about this business of many of the staff being former students. It adds to the evidence of cult behavior. Did others at other facilities find this to be true? Does "graduate" equal "get hired"?
Auntie Em
Yes it was this way in plenty of programs. If you want, read Help at Any Cost for more info.
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Most definitely. An awful lot of the new hires of staff/faculty at Hyde are Hyde graduates. Cheaper for the program, eh? Less training involved, loyalty more assured.
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Alla those fuckers had their goddam heads up their asses any way you slice it.
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Okay, I'm ready to cry now. Not your fault, of course, I just can't stand that my niece may, for all intents and purposes, be gone, may be in their clutches for many years to come. She's 18 now and still at BCA, apparently has given her consent.
Yes, I have the "Help at Any Cost" book. Look for it at your bookstore in the "Horror" aisle.
Auntie Em
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Oh well.
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in answer to the question about someone voluntarily signing in or committing to a program after age 18....
i turned 18 while i was at Hephzibah House. i told them i wanted to leave, but i was ignored and not permitted to go. i had no access to a telephone, and any incoming/outgoing letters were all read. there was at least one other girl there who was also 18. i know i was not there voluntarily...but (and now to actually answer the question)....Hephz. House is FULL of staff who are former students of the program. There is one girl who went on to marry ron williams (director) son. others are just on staff, and after they have been out of the program, they have had younger sisters who came into it. even after i wanted to leave at 18, i just quit fighting. i was what they called a "model student"...i just bided my time. but i left the second my 18 months was up. they wanted me to stay on and go to a good christian college (of their approval) and then help out at the home. fat chance!
I don't understand. Did you leave or not at 18?
At a program in mass, there were several girls who were 18, but continued to stay on. One of the 18 years olds wanted to run away with me, so it's clear there was confusion about what her rights were. The other one seemed more clear on what her rights were, but as lleaving meant homelessness, and as she had no freinds on the outside left, chronic homelessness. She was trapped, adn stayed on for that reason. Even though, staying on meant working from morning to night, being sexually abused, and abusing other kids. On her part, learned helplessness added to the "in effect" imprisonment of inevitable homelessness, prostitution and isolation that simply walking out would entail
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Growing Together's moto is Kids Helping Kids which later became the name of another program...That is exactly what it was abused mind raped kids screaming at other kids some as young as 11? no prior records or history of drug abuse? I still wonder how how this was allowed to continue. I understand that the kids were brainwashed but what about the adults? truely scarey alot of damage done.
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no, i didn't get to leave when i turned 18...i was saying i stayed there for a total of 18 months,,,,and then i split! i wanted to leave, but i was not allowed to...it's funny that we talk about and know we have certain rights, but when you are on the inside, all of that seems to cease to exist!
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I dont know whether Hephzibah House (http://http://www.fornits.com/wiki/index.php/Hephzibah_House) "owns" the police in Winona Lake like Spring Creek Lodge "owns" the police in Thompson Falls, but if they don't the police should be the first place to file a complaint of unlawful imprisonment once you are out.
I know that it is easier said than done, when your own family are pushing you by talking of cutting you of and of course the risk of them ending up in the justice system also because they were paying for the lockup.
But it is the only way to stop them or one day it will be normal to lock adults up without trial and conviction.
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well, of course after i was refused release, as i said, i pretty much got sucked up w/ the rest of the girls by all the brainwashing. so by the time i left there, going to the police was the farthest thing from my mind. now almost 20 years later, i realize what a shame that is. one of ron williams' (director) sons worked for the local sheriff dept. in some capacity. but believe me, NOW i am talking to anyone/everyone who will listen (indiana CPS, social services, the local newspaper). have you guys seen his article on "correction and salvation of children"? it outlines his biblical philosophy on Beating children (his own words)!!!!!
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Don't be a tease.... post the article!
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okay, here it is...holy crap it's long, but you asked for it!!!!!
i highlighted a few points throughout to make it a little easier to get through.
The Correction and Salvation of Children
By Ronald E. Williams
Believers Baptist Church, 508 School St., Winona Lake, IN 46590
(219) 269-2376
TWO DIRECTIVES OF SOLOMON FOR THE CORRECTION AND SALVATION OF
CHILDREN
"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him
with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod,
and shalt deliver his soul from hell." Proverbs 23:13,14
THE FIRST DIRECTIVE: The perception of my duty and the promise
involved if I carry out my duty
A. The perception of my duty
"Withhold not correction from the child."
Through a negative admonition, "withhold not," Solomon is
encouraging us to perceive what our duty is with regard to our
child. One might ask, Why is it necessary to be told what our duty
is? Because we would naturally "withhold" instead of obeying. The
Scripture indicates in Proverbs 13:24, "He that spareth his rod,
hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Many
parents today are in a position where they Biblically hate their
children because they are not acting against their natural feelings
and disciplining themselves towards the Godly habit-pattern of
consistent correction. In other words, it takes work, wisdom, self
discipline, and
Godliness to correct children the way the Lord wants.
Fight your feelings
The concept of having to be told what to do in order that we can
combat our natural feelings is illustrated in other areas of our
lives. The Lord Jesus, for example, taught in Matthew 5:28 that it
is wrong for a man to look lustfully upon a woman, implicitly
telling us to not do that. One could ask, Why does He teach such a
thing? Because men naturally look upon women in a lustful way. In
fact, any man who claims that he has never had a problem in this
area is either a liar or he is dead! Just as the Scripture
indicates "the eyes of man are never satisfied" (Proverbs 27:20).
Therefore, the Lord, recognizing our weakness, has admonished men
not to look lustfully at women. Men must not operate on the basis of
their natural inclinations, but on the basis of what is right,
controlling their feelings and the flesh in the process.
Another example would be in the area of a man loving his wife. The
Apostle Paul in Ephesians 5:25 says, "Husbands, love your wives even
as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it." Why did
the Spirit of God believe it necessary to instruct a man through the
Apostle Paul to love his wife as Christ loved the church? Because a
man would not naturally do this. A man is naturally in love with
himself even as that same chapter indicates in 5:29: "For no man
ever yet hateth his own flesh but nourisheth and cherisheth it even
as the Lord the church." A man left to his own inclinations and
desires will love himself supremely above all others. A Christian,
however, who is obedient to the Spirit of God and to the Word of
God, will love his wife and not submit to the natural inclination to
love himself first; even as the Lord Jesus demonstrated through His
supreme example in His love for the church. Therefore, when the Lord
gives a negative admonition to parents to "withhold not," it is in
keeping with this Biblical principle of instructing parents to obey
where they will have to overcome their natural inclinations, control
their emotions and do what is right even when they do not feel like.
Whose job?
Who is to perceive this duty that Solomon outlines? The Hebrew
language indicates in this passage through a second person masculine
singular suffix that Solomon is probably addressing a man. The
context of course, would indicate that the father of the household
is the subject of Solomon's admonition. Solomon, in doing this, is
underscoring and agreeing with the rest of Scripture when it teaches
that child-training and education is the primary responsibility of
the father of that child. The primary responsibility for this vital
task is not delegated by God to the mother, Sunday School teacher,
pastor, day school teacher, grandparents, or any other person, but
is the primary responsibility of the father. Obviously, these other
individuals are an invaluable help to the father, especially his
wife, but they are helpers only. A father will stand before the
judgment seat of Christ and give an account for the spiritual,
emotional, and physical welfare and training of his wife and
children. It therefore behooves a father to be extremely judicious
and cautious in whom he selects to be his helpers in the vital task
of training and educating his child. Why?
So as not to compromise the Biblical standard he must inculcate in
his children.
This same principle is especially underscored in Deuteronomy 6:7--
"And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt
talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest
by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up."
Moses in that Old Testament passage uses a similar ending or suffix
on the words in that verse, again indicating that he is addressing
the heads of Hebrew households, or more simply, the fathers of each
family. Moses, as a spokesman, for the Lord, indicated that God
expects the father in the home to diligently train the children in
Godliness and in God's standards.
This concept is not exclusively an Old Testament concept, but is
highlighted again in the New Testament. Ephesians 6:4 states: "And
ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath, but bring them up in
the nurture and admonition of the Lord." The Apostle Paul directly
addresses fathers in this verse and lays the responsibility for
nurture and admonition squarely on their shoulders. So to answer the
question, "Who is to perceive this duty of correction," one must
simply answer, it is the responsibility of the father to perceive
this duty.
What job needs to be done?
Next we need to ask, what is the duty perceived by the father?
Solomon indicates that the duty to be perceived by the father is
something he calls "correction." Correction in the Bible has two
basic ideas. The first idea is training through oral instruction.
This is a vital part of child- training and cannot be neglected lest
the child not receive a balanced instruction from his father. The
Scripture indicates that it is the rod and reproof that gives
wisdom, not the rod alone (Proverbs 29:15). The other aspect of this
word "correction" is training through physical scourging or
chastening. Both concepts are involved.
Who is the object of our attention?
With whom is the duty of correction concerned? This passage
indicates that "the child" is the object of concern with regard to
Godly correction. Many young people, in learning about the Biblical
standard of correction, might well ask, who is a child and who is
not? The Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament
Hebrew Scriptures) uses the word meaning a minor child to translate
this word. One could well ask, how old a child should receive
physical correction? Or, to put it another way, when is a child not
a child?
It is my opinion that the parents of that youngster should decide
when a child is no longer a child and when he should no longer
receive the correction of which Solomon speaks in this passage.
Admittedly, this is not always an easy decision inasmuch as an older
child may do unlawful things that the parent believes should be
corrected by the rod. I would suggest three simple thoughts as
possible helps in determining when a child is no longer a child in
need of physical correction. First, when that child starts paying
his own bills from his own resources he has probably reached the
level of responsibility wherein he will respond better to the
reproofs of life given him by the Lord than he will by the rod of
correction given him by his earthly father. Second, when that child
starts his own household, whether it be as a single adult or as a
married adult, he is quite obviously out of the realm of being
physically corrected. Third, it is my suggestion that a child in
your home be corrected according to his emotional age rather than
his physical age.
In my limited experience, I have often encountered a child who
physically has attained an age many parents would view as being too
old to receive physical correction. However, that same child may be
committing extremely immature and irresponsible acts in his life
that could well benefit from the rod of correction. With these
things in mind, you as a parent can be helped in determining when
physical correction with the rod should be used and when it should
not. These are not guidelines that should be chiseled in stone but
might prove helpful.
One thing is certain, correction with the rod should and must start
very early. In fact, correction with the rod should start much
earlier than our contemporary godless and irresponsible society
believes is normative. The Scripture says, "Chasten thy son while
there is hope and let not thy soul spare for his crying" (Proverbs
19:1. In other words, there is a time when there is real hope that
a child can be corrected and have his will broken by the parent who
uses the rod of correction, and there is a time when that hope
diminishes by virtue of the child's advancing age.
In my position as the director of a rehabilitation ministry for
troubled teenage girls, I receive phone calls daily from desperate
parents all across the United States. They have children for whom
all hope seems to be gone because they did not start the use of the
rod of correction while there was hope as the Scriptures mandated. I
do not mean to discourage parents with older teenagers, who have
suddenly been exposed to God's inspired instructions in this matter.
As long as you have a child under your authority and your home where
you can directly supervise and correct him, there still is hope that
you may turn that child from his wicked ways and break his will. You
may still teach him to submit to authority in his life.
A good illustration of this hope is found in the case of a mother
who called me from a distant state about her troubled teenage
daughter. This teenager had gotten into such continual mischief and
wickedness that the desperate mother went to the local hardware
store and purchased a lock and chain with which to lock the girl to
her body. This unorthodox measure kept the girl in her home at night
but fell far short of Scriptural methodology in changing the heart!
I explained to the mother that we did not have room to receive the
girl at the time because our beds were filled. However, I mentioned
that I could give her a possible answer for her predicament. I also
said, "But I doubt that you will follow through." The mother,
hearing that there might be a solution to her crisis, desperately
implored, "Yes, I will take your counsel. What is your solution?" I
then proceeded to explain that the mother should get a stick that
would not break and get after that daughter until the daughter asked
for peace in their relationship. The mother hesitated in silence for
a time on that long distance telephone call, and then seemingly made
a firm commitment before me and the Lord that she would do so. She
answered, "Alright, I will!" I then forgot about the mother and her
call inasmuch as we receive several calls like this daily.
Three weeks later, I received a phone call from this same mother. I
had forgotten who she was and was reminded of her identity only when
she reminded me of the lock and chain she had purchased to secure
her daughter. I remembered who she was at that point since that was
a unique method of restraining the girl. I asked, "Well, what has
happened since our last conversation?" The mother replied that she
had taken my advice to secure a large stick that would not break,
and to quote the mother, "I wore off her behind!" I chuckled at the
mother's response and thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the story. She
went on to explain that she was simply amazed and dumbfounded at her
daughter's change of heart following the severe thrashing that the
mother gave her. It seems that the daughter, for the first time in
sixteen years, chose to obey her mother when she realized that the
mother was unflinchingly determined to break the girl's will and to
settle for nothing less than complete obedience. The mother then
said, "And it has lasted for three weeks! But I think she needs it
again this week." This dramatic illustration of how one mother
solved the problem of breaking the will of her daughter points up
how God's methods really can and do work. But a parent must be fully
purposed and determined in his heart that he will obey God no matter
what the consequences.
B. The promise involved if I carry out my duty
The second part of the first directive is the promise involved if I
carry out my duty. "For if thou beatest him with the rod he shall
not die." The condition of the promise is found in the phrase, "if
thou beatest him with the rod." Who meets this condition? Again, the
original Hebrew gives us the clue. Another masculine suffix is used
here indicating that the father is probably the one who shoulders
the responsibility of meeting this condition. The specific action
involved in meeting the condition is summed up by Solomon in the
word "beat." To use this word in connection with child correction
conjures up in the listening mind all manner of horrible child abuse
through stories vividly displayed by our mass media and by liberal
thinking do-gooders. They decry almost any form of child correction
beyond praise and persuasive speech or possibly withdrawal of
privilege. God however, who knows better than men, and has wisdom
that men can never approach, uses a word that is very strong.
The emotional freight connected with this word causes even many
fundamental preachers to withdraw from its use. But since God uses
the word and the translators of the Authorized Version have used a
perfectly good English word, we shall attempt to explain it in its
context free of the emotional freight so often connected with its
use.
The grammatical form of the word indicates that it takes effort to
carry out the conditions of this promise. The Hebrew word "to beat"
in this verse is a causal verb that emphasizes that a dad must bring
himself to do it. This hearkens back to what was said earlier about
having to force ourselves to do what does not come naturally in this
area of child correction. Not only must we cause ourselves to "beat
our child" but the usage of this particular word indicates that God
has designed corporal punishment so that it would cause pain. The
word "beat" that is used here is the very same word used in
Deuteronomy 25:2,3. In this Deuteronomy passage, it is very clear
that the word is used in connection with a physical beating where
pain is being inflicted by the beating as a means of punishment
ordered by a judge in Israel. By this Scriptural illustration we are
absolutely compelled to realize that this word is used in the sense
of physical pain being caused by corporal punishment, and, further,
that this is God's very objective!
If we return to our passage in Proverbs 23:13, 14, we see by the
context that God is also talking about the theme of physical
beating, not a beating with words, withdrawal of privilege, or
anything else short of physical chastisement. Some folks have a real
problem in thinking of the Lord planning to have a child experience
pain during an incident of correction. Those who would have a
problem in this area should quickly review Hebrews 12:6-11. There
the writer to the Hebrews develops the point that painful
chastisement at the hand of God is a very clear mark of being a
child of God. Moreover, verse eight indicates that anyone without
this chastisement, "whereof all are partakers," is in reality not a
son of God at all and therefore not an object of His filial love.
The world and humanistically-trained minds are repelled in horror at
the thought of a God who would deliberately order painful correction
of a child and use words as strong as "beat" in ordering parents to
carry out that correction. The Scriptures make it abundantly clear
that such painful correction is the most loving, wise, and
responsible procedure that a Godly parent can follow in developing
obedience and character in his child. Therefore, when you hear
someone object, "But that will hurt my child," you can
answer, "Precisely, that is God's goal, that the child be hurt with
the pain of the spanking during a session of correction."
What is the reason for the pain? It delivers, in some mysterious
way, the heart of that child from its rebellion, stubbornness, and
willfulness. Any regenerate person can see abundant testimony to how
this mysterious process works by looking at his or her own life's
experience in walking with his Saviour. God reproves His children
many times in very painful ways to deliver their hearts of the same
ungodly characteristics.
Ideally, a child should know the reason that he is being dealt with
in this way. In other words, he should know the sin or the rule he
has broken. He should especially know how he has offended God and
broken His moral law and then be called to repentance before God and
others who are affected by his sin. When this is done the session of
correction has its maximum benefit in the life of the
child. "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of
correction shall drive it far from him" (Proverbs 22:15).
Mysterious? Yes, but mysterious as it is, the promise is bound in
this Scripture that Godly and consistent application of the rod of
correction will deliver the foolish rebellion and stubborn
willfulness from the heart of a child when his parents have
disciplined themselves enough to carry it out.
Correction not a one-time affair
Another condition of the promise Solomon develops in this passage is
that correction must be consistent and repetitive. The verb
for "beat" that he uses in this verse is not a one-time action. The
verb calls for ongoing activity of beating. Therefore a parent may
not reasonably expect that one or two times of Biblically beating
the child is going to deliver that child once and for all of the
rebellious heart with which he was born. However in the same
breath, we must emphasize that Godly parents who insist on complete
obedience and back up their demands with immediate application of
the rod discover to their joy that the need for the rod diminishes
as the child recognizes the parents' determination to apply it when
necessary.
Many parents have said to me when being challenged about their lack
of consistency in application of the rod of correction, "I have
tried that; it doesn't work." Let us think about that response for a
moment. Can it really be true that a child correction procedure that
is ordered directly in the Scriptures for Godly parents will work in
some cases and not in others? The earnest believer would be repelled
in horror and say, "Of course not!" Then if the fault does not lie
in the Lord or His Word, where does the fault lie if a child is
manifesting the rebellion bound in his naturally depraved heart? I
believe the answer lies with the father primarily and with parents
collectively.
Whenever I have encountered such an excuse on the part of a parent,
I immediately begin to ask specific questions about their child
correction procedures. In each case I have examined, I have
discovered that the parent who claims that they have tried the rod
of correction God's way, in reality hasn't done so at all. Some have
given their child the rod of correction with such a lack of
determination and vigor that their blows could not be expected to
seriously dampen the enthusiastic rebellion of the child. Other
parents have tried the application of the rod at widely divergent
intervals of time and have been seriously negligent in the area of
consistency. Further questioning always has revealed that the
correction was not done with God's methods in mind at all. In fact,
when a child is disciplined in this inconsistent way, he seems to
become a worse child of the devil than he was before. In effect, as
he is given half-hearted strokes of the rod by a parent who is not
fully determined in his heart to break the child's will for the
glory of God, that child in his heart reasons, "I can take this. My
parent has not succeeded in breaking my will and I have won."
To carry out the spirit of this passage, a parent must immediately
carry out correction with the rod as soon as practical after the
offense has occurred. This is fully in keeping with Ecclesiastes
8:11--"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed
speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in
them to do evil." God clearly states that the further correction is
removed from the actual offense in terms of relative time, the less
effective that correction will be. What an instructive lesson for
our judicial system! How corrective can any method of punishment be
when it is weeks, months, and even years after the actual offense?
Therefore, a parent should apply the rod as quickly as is possible
following the breaking of a rule.
For this reason, a mother who is alone with her children during the
day is wise to use her delegated authority from her husband to
speedily execute the correction against the erring child rather than
wait the minutes or even the hours that it may take for dad to
arrive home. When one keeps in mind that the greater the time
difference between the offense and the correction the less effect
will be gained from the correction, it is obviously wise to follow
God's method and apply the correction immediately after the offense.
Many parents in using the rod of correction on their child do so
with an obvious lack of vigor and often stop short of the child's
will being completely broken. Manifestation of this error is
illustrated in countless homes as a child gets up from his session
of correction still spouting rebellious words and giving willful
looks at his discouraged parent. The parent has no one to blame but
himself for this problem since he did not completely break the will
of the child during the session of correction. A child who is still
willing to resist the authority of his parent after having received
the rod of correction is still in need of more of that same rod.
Both my wife and I have often remarked that it is good that one of
our children was not our firstborn. This particular child who came
along later in our family was extremely willful and rebellious
toward our authority and would often require sessions of correction
lasting from one to two hours in length before the will would
finally be broken! Had this child been our first, we may well have
been tempted to despair of the grace of God.
Do not be discouraged, dear parent, when it appears that your Godly
efforts to chastise your child with the rod of correction meet with
total resistance towards your authority. This simply means that you
have started on the right course and you must now pursue your
objective of a broken will with great vigor until your mission is
finally accomplished. This may require a great deal of self-
discipline on your part but you can do it, since God requires you to
do so.
God's tool for correction
What is the tool of the condition in this passage? Solomon explains
that it is "the rod." I have spent a great deal of time researching
just exactly what a "rod" is and the Scriptural usage thereof and
have determined that a "rod" is simply a rod! It is variously
defined as a rod, a staff, a scepter, or a wand. In short, a rod is
an instrument strong enough to be used in a session of correction so
that it will not be broken. It also lends itself to inflicting pain
on the posterior of the child, but it is not so constructed as to
break bones or tear flesh! In other words, the rod is not a pencil,
or a ruler, or a pillow. It is far more severe than any of these
objects. Nor is the rod a rubber hose or a length of barbed wire! A
rod in most cases is probably a wooden paddle used for spanking the
buttock. In my own family, we use a large hardwood paddle for this
purpose. If you were to ask any of my children, "Where is the rod of
correction in your house?" They would immediately know of what you
are speaking and each child who is old enough to do so would be able
to take you down to the master bedroom where the "family rod" is
kept in a corner.
Since the Lord emphasizes the use of this inanimate object
called "the rod" it is not wise for a parent to ordinarily use any
other tool for correction.
Although a hand may have to be used in an emergency session of
correction, this is not what the Lord had in mind. Your hand cannot
do an effective job of correcting since you will inflict about as
much pain on your hand as you will on the child's buttock. Your hand
should represent love and affection, not correction. The Lord
prefers this inanimate object called the rod.
If a parent obeys ... then what?
The promise specified to an obedient parent is "he shall not die." A
casual reader of this passage may be tempted to think Solomon is
speaking about the rod of correction in a session of discipline and
this session of discipline will cause sufficient crying on the part
of the child that it may sound as if he is going to die but he
really will not. Although many believe this to be true, this is a
false and erroneous interpretation of this passage. If this were
true and Solomon is making a reference to physical death in this
phrase, "He shall not die," then a parent could keep his child alive
forever by giving him a daily beating! That is ludicrous you may
say, and I agree. This passage is not a reference to physical death
but is a very clear reference to spiritual life and death.
II. THE SECOND DIRECTIVE: THE PROCEDURE AND PRODUCT OF CORRECTION
A. The procedure of correction
The second directive found in this passage is also in two parts.
They are: the procedure and the product of correction. The first
part or the procedure of correction is highlighted by "Thou shalt
beat him with the rod." The one who does the beating, in other
words, is the one who saves this child in a spiritual sense! Here is
a very mysterious promise to a parent in the Scriptures, that
consistent, Godly, disciplined correction of the child with the rod
of correction will in some mysterious sense be instrumental in that
child's spiritual salvation from sin and death.
To ignore this very clear reference to the child's salvation being
related to his being disciplined is to ignore the very clear
teaching of this passage of the Word of God. A parent must recognize
and see clearly that Biblically beating his child sensitizes that
child not only to the fact of sin but also to its ugliness. In
addition, the child will see that the penalty must always be paid
when we sin. The beating spoken of in this passage is done often and
consistently so that the child recognizes he will always pay a price
that he does not want to pay for rebellion against his authority.
Such a child who is Biblically trained and corrected will be far
more likely to respond to the spiritual concepts of sin and
salvation when he reaches the age of understanding. A vital
principle for a parent to grasp in this business of child correction
is that our children will leave our house to obey their heavenly
Father in exactly the same way as they have obeyed their earthly
father.
If a child has been accustomed to disobeying his earthly father and
was rarely corrected or corrected inconsistently at best, that child
will not likely be trained to expect the hand of God to be active in
his life in chastening and drawing him to repentance for his
personal sin. Therefore, he will not be a very likely candidate for
responding to the spiritual concepts of sin and salvation.
Obviously, by the grace of God, there are exceptions to this general
rule. By the mercy of God, the Lord has often reached down and saved
a rebellious youngster who has left the home of parents who never
corrected him in a Godly fashion. It must be remembered that he was
saved by an all-wise, merciful, and loving heavenly Father who
regenerated his heart even though his earthly parents were
unfaithful in the area of correction.
To put it another way, the one who does not Biblically beat his
child, in a loving and consistent way, in a very real sense
predisposes that child for hell and even has a direct part in
sending him there! This truth is precisely why the Lord says
you "hate your child" if you do not chasten him betimes (Proverbs
13:24). Interestingly, the world believes a parents hates his child
if he does use the rod on him!
When your child does wrong and in rebellion breaks rules that you
have very clearly laid out, you should not nag him and incessantly
scold him or put on your mad voice and use any threatening words.
Rather, you should use a rod that has already been designated for
that purpose and in Biblical love consistently beat him that his
will might be broken and that repentance toward you and toward God
be achieved.
Again, these concepts cause horrible thoughts and evoke dramatic
reaction in those not accustomed to principles of God. Such folks
may say at the top of their lungs, "That is child abuse"! My
response to their cries of horror is that their methods of
correction in never using the rod and never trying to bring a child
to repentance for his personal sin is a horrible, hateful, and
unloving method of correction. They are the ones who really are the
child abusers, the parents who neglect and leave their child to his
own devices. These are the parents who allow their children to
express their natural depravity and become increasingly wicked and
more sophisticated in their rebellion toward their authority and
toward God in their advancing age.
No, God's method is best, no matter what the wisdom of this world
presents as an alternative. For a child to be confronted with his
sinnand to be Biblically corrected and to be led to repentance and
gaining of forgiveness for his sin is far better than all the talk,
discussion, and any other substitute for Godly correction that men
can theorize. In my view, any method of child correction that is
presented as a substitute for God's method is child abuse.
But these opponents of God's methods may object, "What you are
suggesting will hurt the child and may even bruise him!" My response
would be, "That is correct." A child may in fact be bruised by a
session of difficult correction. In fact, the Lord has already
anticipated this objection and has discussed it briefly in the
Scriptures. "The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do
stripes the inward parts of the belly" (Proverbs 20:30). One may
say, "That is talking about a child who has bruised himself in an
accident at play."
No, the latter part of the verse explains that God is giving this
passage in the context of physical chastening for correction. God
makes the point that if a child is bruised during one of these
sessions of correction that a parent should not despair but realize
that the blueness of that wound cleanses away the evil heart of
rebellion and willful stubbornness that reside in that depraved
little body. I must hasten to add that no parent should deliberately
seek to bruise his child nor should that be the goal of Biblical
correction. I simply must agree with the Lord and declare that if a
bruise does occur, God knows about it and will use it to cleanse the
guilty heart of that erring child.
Bitter medicine
But the humanist or disobedient parent who does not want to use
God's method may still object and say, "I just cannot bring myself
to do such a horrible thing to my child." Let me ask this question.
If your child was dying of a deadly disease and a very bitter,
extremely distasteful medicine was discovered that could cure your
child of the deadly disease, would you not give him that medicine?
In fact, would you not get help to hold the child to even force the
medicine down his throat in order that he might be saved? Most
thinking menwould most readily admit that they would indeed do so
even though the medicine was horribly bitter and distasteful to the
child. So it is in this matter of God's method of child correction.
It is very distasteful and painful for the child involved and since
this is true it has become bitter and distasteful to disobedient
parents as well, but it is absolutely vital for that child's
character training and ultimate spiritual salvation.
When to begin? :flame:
When should a parent start using the rod of correction on a child
that the Lord has brought into the family. There is no clear and
specific answer to this very good question. However, it is my
opinion that the correction of children should start as soon as the
need for that correction is made manifest. Every discerning parent
who has been blessed with a little child in his home realizes that
his initial impression of the sweetness and the innocence of the
child is in reality an illusion. A child very quickly demonstrates
his fallen, depraved nature and reveals himself to be a selfish
little beast in manifold ways. As soon as the child begins to
express his own self-will (and this occurs early in life) that child
needs to receive correction. My wife and I have a general goal of
making sure that each of our children has his will broken by the
time he reaches the age of one year. To do this, a child must
receive correction when he is a small infant. Every parent
recognizes that this self-will begins early as he has witnessed his
child stiffen his back and boldly demonstrate his rebellion and self-
will even though he has been fed, diapered, and cared for in every
other physical way.
On what occasions should a child be corrected? Whenever a child
directly disobeys authority or shows disrespect and rebellion toward
authority, that child should receive correction. Lesser infractions
of course would receive lesser forms of correction with the rod
being reserved for the more serious infractions.
B. The product of correction
Solomon last turns to the product of Godly correction: "shalt
deliver his soul from hell." The disciplined consistent habit of
Godly correction with the rod figuratively snatches that child's
soul from a real hell. The word for hell in this passage is the
word "sheol." Because of the context, we must recognize that Solomon
is not only talking about sheol in terms of being the realm of the
dead but rather is talking about the lower regions of sheol wherein
reside the souls of the wicked dead who have died in their sins and
in an unbelieving state. Solomon, in other words, makes a direct tie
between Godly correction with the rod and spiritual salvation of the
soul of the child.
This connection is made in a very startling illustration from the
Old Testament Scriptures.
In 1 Samuel 1:12 we are introduced to an Old Testament believer who
was in God's work. This man's name was Eli, who was a priest of the
living God.
As if to reveal Samuel and Eli in startling contrast to one another,
the Spirit of God introduces us to the family of Eli following the
wonderful account of Hannah conceiving the child Samuel after being
infertile. Hannah must have used the rod of correction on little
Samuel since he is later demonstrated in the Scripture as being a
totally different kind of child than were the children of Eli. We
are told that "the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not
the Lord" (1 Samuel 2:12). These two boys, Hophni and Phineas, were
unsaved, unregenerate young men who despite the wickedness of their
hearts and their unregenerate natures were made to be priests of the
Lord. This unhappy and horrible testimony was an abomination to God.
He goes on to say in 1 Samuel 3:13, "For I have told him that I will
judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because
his sons made themselves vile and he restrained them not." In short,
Eli was judged forever by the Lord because he did not restrain the
boys from their wickedness and evil-doing even though he knew they
were doing wrong and violating God's law.
Eli would be in close company with many men today, for even though
they know their boys or their girls are doing wrong, they refuse to
obey God in their own lives. They will not institutes the Godly,
disciplined, consistent use of the rod of correction to turn the
children around.
Why did not Eli follow through with what he knew he should to
restrain his boys? The answer is found in 1 Samuel 2:29, "Wherefore
kick ye at my sacrifice or at mine offering, which I have commanded
in my habitation; and honorest thy sons above me to make yourselves
fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people." Eli
did not want to lose the riches, honor, and prestige of the
priesthood in order to vindicate God's honor. He was well satisfied
with the tremendous wealth and benefits of the priest's office and
he did not want to "rock the boat." He lived a very selfish and self-
centered life rather than obey the Lord. Because he did not want to
jeopardize his or his sons' positions in the priesthood, he refused
to do what he knew he should in restraining their vile, sinful habit
patterns. Again, Eli was like many men on the contemporary scene
who; because they do not want to "upset the apple cart of their
lives," refuse to restrain their children in order to please God.
The stakes are high
Every father and mother must recognize this all-important fact, that
the very soul of their child is at stake in this matter of Godly
correction with the rod. The immortal, undying portion of that child
is in very real jeopardy if his will is not broken and he is not
trained to respond to God's authority in his life.
A parent must not just correct for present results. If this were
true we could understand more clearly why so many parents allow
their children to get by uncorrected at present only to reap sad
results later on. NO, a parent must correct his children not only
for present results but for results twenty years from now and for an
eternity!
I am often reminded of a conversation I had with a neighbor of mine
who related a very personal incident from his life with regard to
the correction of his children. He mentioned to me on one occasion
that he thought that he was much too hard on his son and was even
accused of being too harsh with the boy by other friends and
associates. However, when the boy became an adult man he became
active in the Lord's work and even chose a full-time position in
Christian service. On one occasion the young man returned to his
father and with tears streaming down his cheeks related to his
father how thankful he was that his dad cared enough for him and his
spiritual welfare that he absolutely insisted that the child do
right. He was also thankful that he backed it up with the consistent
and Godly use of the rod of correction even though it was extremely
unpleasant and distasteful at the time to his flesh. Your children
will also come back and thank you twenty years from now for making
them do right if you in fact do so at this moment in their lives.
Any parent who allows the correction of his children to be regulated
on the basis of that parent's feelings and emotions will find that
he only disciplines his children on a infrequent basis. This type of
correction will be administered only when a parent is extremely
irritated or is upset by something rather obvious in the child's
rebellion. Parents cannot afford to base their correction on
feelings or on avoiding unpleasantness but must purpose in their
hearts to use Godly, consistent, loving correction with the rod even
though they don't feel like it!
What do I do now?
If you are like many parents, you have not been correcting your
children God's way. If after you have read this material and you
have allowed the Spirit of God to speak to your heart about your
sinful failure with regard to your child's welfare in this area, you
must not simply throw yourself into a new program of child
correction. You must first ask God to forgive you for your sin and
your failure. Next, ask your child to forgive you for failing him as
a parent in not requiring that he be made to do right in all
situations. Only after these very important steps are taken may you
start with Godly correction and expect your child to respond to you
in a positive way.
You must be prepared however, for a very startling reaction to your
Godly attempts to do right by your children in this area of
correction. If you purpose in your heart to be consistent in this
matter, you will soon discover as countless other Godly parents have
discovered that you must endure persecution, misunderstanding, and
negative reaction from others around you. Some of your friends,
perhaps your parents, neighbors, and even other Christians will not
agree that you should carry through with this Godly discipline. Be
prepared for this reaction, for unless you are in very unusual
circumstances, it is most likely to occur.
Parents must use wisdom
Christian parents must be very wise today in how they carry out
Godly correction. I would encourage you to be vigorous and
consistent in the application of these procedures in the privacy of
your home. I cannot completely tell you the grief I have shared with
so many parents who have telephoned me and asked me in tears to
somehow help their daughter. They have asked to get their daughter
back from the welfare authorities or other bureaucrats. You see,
many parents who have educated their child with the rod of
correction in order to make them do right have found out in shocked
disbelief that even the authorities of our local and state
governments are against the implementation of this Godly method of
training a child. Countless parents could give you vivid testimony
of how various authorities have come to their door and have taken
away their children because the parents were observed correcting
their child with the rod of correction as God ordered them to do.
You must correct your child in the privacy of your home so that the
fruit of your training will be so indelibly fixed on the child's
heart that you will not have to use the rod of correction in a
public setting and expose your family to this very real risk in
today's permissive lawless society.
Another aspect of this is that if you carry through with Godly
correction in the privacy of your home your child will not embarrass
you in public. Many are the parents who are embarrassed in a church
service or in a public setting by their child's unruly behavior
simply because they have not enforced rules of obedience on that
child in the home.
Grandparents should also recognize one possible complication in
their lives with regard to this issue of child correction. The
Scripture states that the crown of older men are children's children
(Proverbs 17:6). That being the case, a grandparent is tempted not
to follow through with the rod of correction being used for his
grandchild. However a Godly grandparent will recognize the necessity
of doing so as well as the Godly reason for doing so. The minority
is right.
We must recognize that those people who disagree with what God
commands parents to do in this passage are in a definite majority in
our society. Perhaps as you read this material, you yourself
disagree with what has been expressed. If you do disagree, you may
be comforted to know that you are definitely in the majority of
opinion. However, you are also very wrong.
Ten spies and all of Israel disagreed with the minority report
given by Joshua and Caleb. But God vindicated Joshua and Caleb and
punished the majority who chose to disobey (Numbers 13-14).
Even though you may think these methods of correction that God has
ordered parents to carry out are bestial, abusive, and unloving, you
are the one who is bestial, abusive, and unloving if you don't obey
God in this matter. Moreover, if you do not obey God your child
likely will not be saved unless the Lord supernaturally in His mercy
does so despite your disobedience.
Today there is at least one European country that has already
outlawed what God has clearly commanded in this area of child
training. Sweden has made it illegal for a parent to use the rod of
correction on his child. If Sweden does carry through and enforce
this ungodly and morally unlawful legislation, I can guarantee that
the next generation in that land will likely be a nation of
perverts. This will be true because of the selfish, rebellious, self-
centered, irresponsible young people such sinful and wicked
legislation will promote.
No matter what men or governments do or do not do with regard to
this issue of child correction, God's people by God's grace must
follow through and do it simply because God commands it and they
must obey to please Him
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WHAT A NUT. I haven't seen fundamental religious nuttery of this kind outside of the poltergeist sequel.
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yeah, no kidding. even aside from all his talk about beating children... what's up w/ his hell bent desire to break every child's will. just goes along w/ his big fat power trip and his nned to control all his "subjects"!
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Thank you for all the care you took in posting that piece. Did you actually transcribe it all, or is there a reference, website-link?
There are a number of Ronald Williams' tracts available from the website on the following webpage, but not "Correction and Salvation of Children"...
http://www.hephzibahhouse.org/tracts/index.html (http://www.hephzibahhouse.org/tracts/index.html)
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no, thank goodness i didn't have to transcribe that whole thing...it took long enough just trying to read it! i just tried to highlight a few areas that were disturbing. it used to be on available w/ the other tracts on his website, and i also had a direct link to find it on the web...just recently all of those disappeared! (and last week i heard a rumor that they had been investigated by the state, but i have not been able to confirm that). that article is also supposedly available on the rick ross website, or so i read. but lord knows i have forwarded it to anyone who will listen (CPS, social services, local newspaper)...ISACCORP if finally getting them up on their website now...on their watchlist.
by the way, if you read any of ron wms other articles/tracts..they are all just as ridiculous (i cringe at the ones about why women should not work outside of the home)...and he used to have a tract on there, it was actually written by his wife, pattti williams...it was called "schizophrenic women", but i believe that link has been removed as well. if you can ever get ahold of a copy of that, you should read it!!!!!
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God's tool for correction
Now that just sounds downright sexy.
Speaking of God's tool, do you think he takes advantage of his condition by fucking the holes in his hands, cause I'd sure wanna know what that felt like.
It must be frustrating not to be able to hold m&ms.
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Someone should sell Canes with a crucifix near the handle called "God's Tool" for use in pornos.
So what would a riding crop be called?
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Someone should sell Canes with a crucifix near the handle called "God's Tool" for use in pornos.
So what would a riding crop be called?
God's whip.
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by the way, if you read any of ron wms other articles/tracts..they are all just as ridiculous (i cringe at the ones about why women should not work outside of the home)...and he used to have a tract on there, it was actually written by his wife, pattti williams...it was called "schizophrenic women", but i believe that link has been removed as well. if you can ever get ahold of a copy of that, you should read it!!!!!
Ask and you shall receive..........
"Schizophrenic Women":
http://web.archive.org/web/200104191237 ... Women.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20010419123737/www.hephzibahhouse.org/tracts/006PantsWomen.html)
"Nakedness" - One should not be surprised to see outlandish and immodest dress in an age of apostasy. Certainly, God's people ought to set the example for Godly attire by following Biblical principles set forth in this tract. Especially important for the ladies.
http://web.archive.org/web/200308190943 ... dness.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20030819094338/www.hephzibahhouse.org/tracts/012Nakedness.html)
"Doubleminded Women " - Our most popular tract, and our most controversial. It explains how and why a woman ought to dress and act like a lady .
http://web.archive.org/web/200308191000 ... women.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20030819100015/www.hephzibahhouse.org/tracts/018Doublemindedwomen.html)
"Marriage: How It Should Be Contracted" - why the feeling-oriented, flesh-dominated dating process of contemporary Christianity failed in producing strong, stable marriages; makes a case for parents being vitally involved in making the marriage contract.
http://web.archive.org/web/200310091328 ... riage.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20031009132824/www.hephzibahhouse.org/tracts/005ContractingMarriage.html)
"Socialization" - explains how believers have harmed their children by allowing social relationships they never should have allowed, refutes the modern error of "socialization" for our youngsters. Especially good for home schoolers and those seeking a separated lifestyle for their family.
http://web.archive.org/web/200308030536 ... ation.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20030803053606/www.hephzibahhouse.org/tracts/007socialization.html)
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www ... hhouse.org (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.hephzibahhouse.org)
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When are we going to clusterfuck heph house?
We really need to hit that like the fist of an angry god... or an angry pantheon :D
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When are we going to clusterfuck heph house?
We really need to hit that like the fist of an angry god... or an angry pantheon :D
Leave them a selection of anal lubes, condoms, and breathe mints in little packets with a pink bow on them.
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thanks rachael for all the Hephz House links.
i remember having to read all those articles when i was there! and then having to write a little essay and summarize what each one was saying. that was like day 2 of my stay (which was better than day 1 by the way)! anyways, thanks again for digging those up and posting 'em.
oh yeah ,i'm all in for the cluster f*** @ Hephz House!!! :evil:
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Mike, on the other thread, is a good example of why programs are so successful at getting kids to stay post 18. The reality of chronic homelessness- not temporary “I made a bad investmentâ€
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bump
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At 18 you supposedly have all these rights. However, the torture cults and the "parents" who put you in them use all sorts of tactics to prevent you from excerizing these rights. They extend custody, they seize control of inheritances and other monies that legally belong to you, they use trickery to continue controlling and exploiting you.
Did you encounter any such trickery and manipulations that were abetted by brain/emotional damage that comes with having your brain restructured through brain washing?
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At 18 you supposedly have all these rights. However, the torture cults and the "parents" who put you in them use all sorts of tactics to prevent you from excerizing these rights. They extend custody, they seize control of inheritances and other monies that legally belong to you, they use trickery to continue controlling and exploiting you.
Did you encounter any such trickery and manipulations that were abetted by brain/emotional damage that comes with having your brain restructured through brain washing?
Holy crap, what the hell have you been smoking?
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At 18 you supposedly have all these rights. However, the torture cults and the "parents" who put you in them use all sorts of tactics to prevent you from excerizing these rights. They extend custody, they seize control of inheritances and other monies that legally belong to you, they use trickery to continue controlling and exploiting you.
Did you encounter any such trickery and manipulations that were abetted by brain/emotional damage that comes with having your brain restructured through brain washing?
Holy crap, what the hell have you been smoking?
What's the problem with what they said?
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one of my fave topics ... bump