Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 03:55:35 PM
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i still feel that these abusive programs could not exist if we had a culture that was accepting of different kinds of people and that did not have tabboos against sex, drugs or feelings.
i also, about violence, and terrorism in america, feel that the people in power today have forgotten that they are human. they think they are gods. if someone bombs your country (and just for the record, i think the cia did 911, and i think al queda works for the cia, bush sr. was head of the cia, hussein was trained by the cia, and the real reason, for those who don't know, that hussein was so hated by the us was because he socialized their oil industry and wasn't being the us puppet anymore, thats why we started bombing him the first time in dessert storm. but no one talks about that either.) maybe you should ask them why.
for example, if all of us were to go find some clone schools and shut off their elecricity so that their 'school' had to get shut down for a week for repairs? we would be considered terrorists, no one would take the time to ask us, why did you do this? so that we could expose how abusive they are.
and yet, if we were to just go to cbs today to get put on the news, who would want to listen? so its a catch 22. the way to get attention is to be destructive, but then if you are destructive you are labeled a terrorist. you are dissmissed on both ends. thats why i hate america. please, america, in the words of portishead, give me a reason to love you!
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bomb bump
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I don't know but shutting down electricity would be a good idea.
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Huh, that's the opposite of my usual plan.
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which is.. ?
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"I've heard comments here referring to a link between Synanon and CEDU anad I have no other info either to confirm or dispute such a connection.
I imagine you're aware that a lot of substance treatment programs still use aspects of the old Synanon methodology without adopting the whole program.
Yes, and I'm aware that around 1970 or so Bobby DuPont, then head of NIDA, actually advocated replicating Synanon all over the country at public expense. And that Scientology's Narconon was taught in Los Angeles area schools up until recently. Doesn't make it valid.
Maybe that's why government studies into the efficacy of various substance abuse treatment models fail to show any significant benefit to treated populations over that to untreated populations.
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That's a pretty common thing, actually for parts of a program to get incorporated into someone else's new idea about how to do things, even when the whole program is seen as objectionable or overboard for some reason. So it's possible that Mel Wasserman, among a whole bunch of other people, looked at parts of Synanon and decided to use what he liked. But I don't know that, it just seems plausible.
Actually, it seems probable. Still, doesn't mean it's a valid or sensible way to go about things.
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On the other hand, other people, for example those who support motivational interviewing, would oppose any part of Synanon, in part for philosophical reasons. When I have a chance, I'll look for any real empirical studies that address effectiveness.
Please. And, try and find any that include a control group.
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I like Lord Acton, by the way, and power dynamics are always an issue, in any school, relationship or family.
But in my own case, I never experienced CEDU as having "absolute power".
Of course you didn't! You were the one signing the checks! Try being a "student".
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And tell me more about the "felony child abuse" that I was paying them to inflict on my son in my absence?
Just look around at what some of these former students have to tell you. No wonder they get pissed off at you. You seem to just unsee whatever doesn't fit your thesis.
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My sense, after reading a number of your posts, is that you are a person who is a little further over on the anarchist side of the anarchist-totalitarian dimension than I am.
. . .
Try Occam's razor here. Your very interesting analysis of my thinking could, possibly, maybe explain my positions. Or you could take my word for it and accept my reasons for believing as I do.
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I'm wondering if we just disagree on the form of the restraint that is being used here or are you saying that you don't think there should be any coercive restraint at all, regardless of what the minor child is doing to self or others?
Maybe, I don't know. How do you feel about allegedly troubled teens restraining and surveiling other allegedly troubled teens? If you're alright w/ that, then I guess you don't have a problem w/ Charles E. Dederich University.
Dear parents, I'm working on a letter for you. until then please check out this:
http://www.youth-liberation.com/ (http://www.youth-liberation.com/)
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message to this parent:
1) i think it displays a sever mistrust in your child that your concerns are not for his well being but for the need for restraints. do you have some sort of restraint fetish? or maybe did someone restrain you as a child?
2) as a 'cedu graduate' i can tell you that when i read the information about synanon that is linked here on fornits it hit home because it very closely described how they 'related' to us at cedu.
cedu was someone's head trip, a savior fantasy played out in the minds of all the staff as a form of therapy, for the staff, therapy, maybe even a sick sort of therapy for the parents that maybe you enjoyed at the unknown expense of your child, a cruel trick that they played on you to make it all the more harder to swallow that you have been betrayed, you have been lied to, just like we were again and again.
but the lies we were told were much greater and much more painful than the lies you have been told. your souls were put up on the wall of shame, our actual innocent trusting hearts were slayed deep into our psyches for their sick games. and they did not allow us to tell you.
they hated the parents, more than they hated us i think. they hated you for how you had allowed them to dupe them.
they hated you for your implication in their sin, in their mind numbing, child molesting addiction. abusing children i think is very close to molestation. i was raped twice in my life, once at cedu, once two years after cedu, and neither compare to the trauma of the mind rape i endured for 2.5 years at cedu from which i am just barely recovering, at 30.
i was sent there at 14 for loosing my virginity. how many 14 year old girls' virginity have you taken? has your son taken? is it a sin? to have sex at 14? punishable with torture? read those synanon descriptions of the game. that was the game. those were raps. 3 times a week from noon to 5. read what every single kid on here says about how their stomach turned when it was time for raps. that was where it all baselined.
and then there were the all night profeets, have you taken the time to find out what went on in them?
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i thought of this post the other day, i dont think cedu was therapy for the staff any more than it was therapy for the students.
the whole thing just destroyed everyone, top to bottom.
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If I could weigh in here without sounding like a sanctimonious foreigner, I agree with some of the original post. I don't think it is unique to the US I think the west has become caught up with the idea that financial prosperity gives you the moral right to do whatever you want regardless of the effect on others. As the US is the richest most powerful western country it can take this idea to alarming extremes.
One thing I think has really helped this industry take off in the US is the way in which zero tolerance has taken off because the parental fear that their child may be jailed for something reasonably petty is not unreasonable in such a context. This is why the folly of such logic really must be strenuously debated.
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I think we are also a culture that has become afraid of our teenagers, sadly.
Auntie Em
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interesting, i think thats true.
teenagers are smart enough to see whats going on but dont know the taboos yet, and we are a society of secrets and myths.
thats the thing about cedu, and all these schools, they are symptomatic of the larger social problem that refuses to accept our frail and limited humanity, seeking to make supermen, supersoldiers, supersconsumers, superrulers, planetary control systems, bigger bigger bigger until we control everything!!!!!!!!!!! crazy kool aid drinking delusional idiots!
and they are in charge, so of course in a society ruled by madmen torture chambers spring up under the guise of education.
because our leaders dont care what happens to us, any of us, not it's teenagers, nor its teachers, nor its todlers, nor its elderly. not its rich, nor its poor. not its kind nor its cruel. it just doesnt care. there is not one strata of society that is nurtured. the richest in our country are hopelessly drug addicted and sick on their own poisons.
but the time approaches. people will not stand for much worse. not for long. but if we arent careful we will have to endure a lot worse than we all saw at cedu, except it won't be a bubble apart from society, it will be society, and we will seek bubbles of peace.
i pray it doesnt go that far.
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I simply wish people didn't have such fucking selective memories about what they were like when *they* were teenagers.
I know, obvious sentiment.
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Is it that you are afraid of or afraid for your teenagers?
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(and just for the record, i think the cia did 911, and i think al queda works for the cia, bush sr. was head of the cia, hussein was trained by the cia, and the real reason, for those who don't know, that hussein was so hated by the us was because he socialized their oil industry and wasn't being the us puppet anymore, thats why we started bombing him the first time in dessert storm. but no one talks about that either.)
Somebody has a serious problem here. A little paranoid are we? Bush is too stupid to pull that shit off and the media would have found out and turned it into a pulitzer prize story, they never shut up and would put a broadcast up telling our enemies we are on the way over to bomb them if they could. Go read/watch some documentaries on the way Muslims beat their wives and mutilate their daughters. If that's how they treat family, why wouldn't they want to kill us? Muslims are to blame for todays problems, END of DISCUSSION. Stop blaming the U.S. Be proud to be American and proud of the good we have done in the world. How much good do the Muslim countries ever do, answer: none.
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Just because muslims are religious fanatics living in the 12th century doesn't mean the US is almighty. Sure in a relative sense we're 'better'.
But I hope you're not saying the US is perfect.
I'm proud of everyday americans. However, I'm not so proud of our political institutions.
Did you hear the story of the 21 year old marine from Texas who returned from a full tour. He was entitled to his G.I. education college program. He tried to sign up to go to college and was told that since he didn't have a texas address in the last 2 years he was ineligble. "Well no shit I don't have a Texas address you red taped bastard, I've been over in the land of sand killing Iraqis for you"!
I could go on and on. Did you know there's been a Kentucky Fried Chicken right at the Gates to the Pyramids in Cairo, Egypt since circa 1997?
I don't think globalizing the rest of the world to be just like america is good foreign policy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKqyUml ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKqyUmlrCM&feature=related)
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(and just for the record, i think the cia did 911, and i think al queda works for the cia, bush sr. was head of the cia, hussein was trained by the cia, and the real reason, for those who don't know, that hussein was so hated by the us was because he socialized their oil industry and wasn't being the us puppet anymore, thats why we started bombing him the first time in dessert storm. but no one talks about that either.)
Somebody has a serious problem here. A little paranoid are we? Bush is too stupid to pull that shit off and the media would have found out and turned it into a pulitzer prize story, they never shut up and would put a broadcast up telling our enemies we are on the way over to bomb them if they could. Go read/watch some documentaries on the way Muslims beat their wives and mutilate their daughters. If that's how they treat family, why wouldn't they want to kill us? Muslims are to blame for todays problems, END of DISCUSSION. Stop blaming the U.S. Be proud to be American and proud of the good we have done in the world. How much good do the Muslim countries ever do, answer: none.
END of DISCUSSION
well, ok, i guess i wont respond then :)
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(and just for the record, i think the cia did 911, and i think al queda works for the cia, bush sr. was head of the cia, hussein was trained by the cia, and the real reason, for those who don't know, that hussein was so hated by the us was because he socialized their oil industry and wasn't being the us puppet anymore, thats why we started bombing him the first time in dessert storm. but no one talks about that either.)
Somebody has a serious problem here. A little paranoid are we? Bush is too stupid to pull that shit off and the media would have found out and turned it into a pulitzer prize story, they never shut up and would put a broadcast up telling our enemies we are on the way over to bomb them if they could. Go read/watch some documentaries on the way Muslims beat their wives and mutilate their daughters. If that's how they treat family, why wouldn't they want to kill us? Muslims are to blame for todays problems, END of DISCUSSION. Stop blaming the U.S. Be proud to be American and proud of the good we have done in the world. How much good do the Muslim countries ever do, answer: none.
END of DISCUSSION
well, ok, i guess i wont respond then :)
Technically speaking, Al Queda DID work for the CIA. The US used to fund them in their "holy war" against the Russians and then their independent nation-state.Back then, the official US term for al queda was freedom fighters.
Count on U.S citizen ignorance and memory capacity of a goldfish to forget that, and some even scarier shit that's available for public consumption in the official records if you care to look.
Why should anyone be "proud of being an Americanâ€
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speak!! speak!! :D
yeah, i feel that.
i want to be a proud american, i do. i have no hatred for any man. but i don't feel proud of being a part of something that is killing people in a way that fits a very obvious historical pattern of empire building. nations do this. power structures grow, like cancers, we dont understand ourselves well enough to safely rule ourselves yet. thats why i think there should be anarchy, because i think people still need a lot of time to just experiment, and see if a system emergers, rather than trying to think one out and apply it at all costs.
thats what i see in america more than anything, a system that was well thought out and applied without any sense of reality or natural development.
but i am not so foolish as to beleive that our country is great simply because it calls itself so. we must be more attentive citizens than that. in the words of CEDU we must be our brother's keeper.
(i know, its sick, but it is true, in my opinion. the brother's keeper propheet is a load of nonsense and bullshit and those fuckers had no clue what it was to be a friend, but i do know that it is true that a true friend tells you what they really see, not what will keep them in your immediate favor.)
and we must stop being afraid of falling out of favor with our "mom" america, we must be heartened and trust that if we defy her she will know that we would not lest we felt it the best thing, and that like any good mother she will trust her child.
but america does not trust it's children, and american mothers do not trust their american children, and things will change, because it is against the natural way of things, and with all his might and technology, man will never be stronger than the natural way of things, because it is in that way that joy lives. man will follow joy, and it will stop him from killing eventually.
sermon complete.
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(and just for the record, i think the cia did 911, and i think al queda works for the cia, bush sr. was head of the cia, hussein was trained by the cia, and the real reason, for those who don't know, that hussein was so hated by the us was because he socialized their oil industry and wasn't being the us puppet anymore, thats why we started bombing him the first time in dessert storm. but no one talks about that either.)
Somebody has a serious problem here. A little paranoid are we? Bush is too stupid to pull that shit off and the media would have found out and turned it into a pulitzer prize story, they never shut up and would put a broadcast up telling our enemies we are on the way over to bomb them if they could. Go read/watch some documentaries on the way Muslims beat their wives and mutilate their daughters. If that's how they treat family, why wouldn't they want to kill us? Muslims are to blame for todays problems, END of DISCUSSION. Stop blaming the U.S. Be proud to be American and proud of the good we have done in the world. How much good do the Muslim countries ever do, answer: none.
END of DISCUSSION
well, ok, i guess i wont respond then :)
Technically speaking, Al Queda DID work for the CIA. The US used to fund them in their "holy war" against the Russians and then their independent nation-state.Back then, the official US term for al queda was freedom fighters.
Count on U.S citizen ignorance and memory capacity of a goldfish to forget that, and some even scarier shit that's available for public consumption in the official records if you care to look.
Why should anyone be "proud of being an Americanâ€
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Also, for the record, I'm a US Army Spec Ops veteran with service in the Balkans. I think the way benefits are getting yanked from returning vets is criminal and the people responsible should be tied to a remote controlled Humvee and driven around Nasiriyah until they get an RPG shot up their ass.
Vote this November and bring down the criminal regime.
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Rugby Punk.....
Too bad more people aren't more informed.
Right now, we are covering revolutionary era writers in my Am Lit course, and discussing what patriotism entails. Almost every single student in my class said obedience to my country, right or wrong! Most advocated blind obedience because after all, as one put it, "if you can't trust your government. who can you trust?" Frightening, huh?
The other scary thing were the persuasive papers they had to write this year... many who still support the Iraq War say its warranted because the Iraqis shot down the towers!!! I don't know where they get their information, but I had to say, first and foremost, you better know the basic facts before you take a position. I'm trying to urge them to be more discerning, but many of the parents are as ignorant as their children.
Oh well. Last year's paper entries included: How to Make Spaghetti (what's persuasive about that?!) and "Once you go black you never go back." I had to persuade that kid that perhaps a more delicately put essay on prejudice against interracial dating might be more appropriate.
It saddens me to see how few buck the system types I have this year.
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Fuck yes Rugby Punk. Well said.
what's your email address?
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If you agree that the current Iraq situation goes back to the First Gulf War, then you need to know that -
Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, because:
1. Very loose excuse - Iraq and Kuwait were part of the same territory back in the 18-19th centuries when ruled by the Ottoman Turks
2. Kuwait and the other rich, oil producing Arab Gulf states lent Saddam a bunch of money so he would fight Khomeini's Iran for them. Iraq fought Iran for almost 10 years (1980-1989). Iran just threw waves of men and boys at the Iraqis. Iraq had most of the technology and firepower thanks to Saudi Arabia and the US.
The war was fought to a pointless standstill, until both sides were tired and ready to call it a day. No territory was permanently traded to either side. Hundreds of thousands of people died.
PS While Saddam was using gas against the Iranians and putting the Global community in an uproar, he was also at the same time gassing the Kurds in northern Iraq, which nobody found out about till much later.
is this desert storm you are talking about here?
so, when did saddam socialize oil? when we bombed iraq most recently in the 'war on terror' they had, despite our embargos, the most social services of any middle east country.
it seems to me that saddam is more like castro than hitler, and it seems to me that despite castro's offenses his citizens are healthier, happier, and better educated than ours. everyone except the poor desperate souls of guantanamo.
i think it is important when 'being informed' that one also remember that our administration, much like our past masters at cedu, rma and the like, lie frequently.
it cannot be overlooked that the status quo of our system is deception. if it wasnt when jfk was assasinated, it is now. and i fear for all our futures right now, this is not a wolf cry, this is the real deal and bush is just puppet and juliani is next in line, and if someone cuts, he will probably get shot before americans wake up and see what is going on.
or they will wake up now, and see what is actually happening all around us right now.
it is ironic that i am talking about this here. i thought that of all people anyone who had experienced cedu would not be able to miss the blatant abuse of power taking place in this country right now. but, that is exactly how they are doing it, everyone they are tricking is really actually getting tricked. smart people like you beleive that our negotiations with saddam have been entirely financial and above board, and that all those records you read that are the official story are going to be true by virtue of being official, not only true but thorough of their analysis of the larger global and social factors.
so no, i have not read every document that the govt ever put out on that subject and i dont read every brief that comes out of the white house. i watch what actually happens, and i dont believe anything anyone says, i only believe the things i actually see happen, and even those i barely believe.
so sure i could be completely wrong about everything i think, completely possible, but i also see it possible that every fact that you have ever read in the news or in any official document is shaded to the point of being either a lie, an accessory to a lie, or irrelevent to the larger truth.
so i must trust my own flawed eyes, and they tell me that bush is a puppet and the men who pull his strings are bent on world domination at the cost of any life, maybe even their own.
madness, just like the madness we saw at cedu. maybe i am just projecting and i am totally wrong, but thats what i said when i told everyone that bush was lying to get us into iraq, and what they said when i said we would still be there 5 years later, and what they said to me when i said those countrywide loans are a baaad idea.
but whatever, you dont have to agree with me, and i do appreciate your knowledge. so that was desert storm you were talking about?
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is this desert storm you are talking about here?
so, when did saddam socialize oil? when we bombed iraq most recently in the 'war on terror' they had, despite our embargos, the most social services of any middle east country.
it seems to me that saddam is more like castro than hitler, and it seems to me that despite castro's offenses his citizens are healthier, happier, and better educated than ours. everyone except the poor desperate souls of guantanamo.
i think it is important when 'being informed' that one also remember that our administration, much like our past masters at cedu, rma and the like, lie frequently.
it cannot be overlooked that the status quo of our system is deception. if it wasnt when jfk was assasinated, it is now. and i fear for all our futures right now, this is not a wolf cry, this is the real deal and bush is just puppet and juliani is next in line, and if someone cuts, he will probably get shot before americans wake up and see what is going on.
or they will wake up now, and see what is actually happening all around us right now.
it is ironic that i am talking about this here. i thought that of all people anyone who had experienced cedu would not be able to miss the blatant abuse of power taking place in this country right now. but, that is exactly how they are doing it, everyone they are tricking is really actually getting tricked. smart people like you beleive that our negotiations with saddam have been entirely financial and above board, and that all those records you read that are the official story are going to be true by virtue of being official, not only true but thorough of their analysis of the larger global and social factors.
so no, i have not read every document that the govt ever put out on that subject and i dont read every brief that comes out of the white house. i watch what actually happens, and i dont believe anything anyone says, i only believe the things i actually see happen, and even those i barely believe.
so sure i could be completely wrong about everything i think, completely possible, but i also see it possible that every fact that you have ever read in the news or in any official document is shaded to the point of being either a lie, an accessory to a lie, or irrelevent to the larger truth.
so i must trust my own flawed eyes, and they tell me that bush is a puppet and the men who pull his strings are bent on world domination at the cost of any life, maybe even their own.
madness, just like the madness we saw at cedu. maybe i am just projecting and i am totally wrong, but thats what i said when i told everyone that bush was lying to get us into iraq, and what they said when i said we would still be there 5 years later, and what they said to me when i said those countrywide loans are a baaad idea.
but whatever, you dont have to agree with me, and i do appreciate your knowledge. so that was desert storm you were talking about?
Hmm, well, where do I start? First off, yes, I was talking about Desert Storm. Because of the current conflict being the second war that America has fought in Iraq, the first one in most 'official' records, or journalistic reports is being called the First Gulf War. But hey, call it Desert Storm, or the start of the shit storm, if you will. We all know what we're referencing.
Also, why would you say I'm only quoting official records aka Gov't records. The most recent thing I've read was by a British author called John Keegan. He is by no means pro-Bush. His researched account was written in a mostly non-biased manner. If anything, more critical of American policy than not. (He was NOT an embedded journalist, which would definitely cloud his judgement)
I'm no supporter of our current regime. I call it a regime instead of government, because they weren't really chosen by the people and they will try by any means to stay in power long after using up legal avenues. And they will try to get the country involved in their schemes. Of course Bush lied. He lies all the time. He makes sure people lie for him so he can directly deny it.
There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but by the time that was established, it was too late, we were already stuck in the mess.
Yes, Saddam did do some beneficial things for Iraqi society. He did build schools, hospitals, universities. He also had torture centers, lavish palaces, chemical weapons factories and mass graves made. Every leader does good things for his people to be seen as a great leader, but that doesn't offset killing thousands of your own people because they might be a political threat to you.
Apparently you missed that second post. The one where I called Bush and his cronies criminals. Which makes me wonder if you're hearing what you want to hear and begging for an argument.
Someone can be pro-US military and anti-US government, it is possible. Personally, I don't see how you can't be when some young American serviceman or woman is dying today in the desert needlessly so you don't have to.
There's a punk band from Pittsburgh called Anti-Flag. They seem to have that same problem separating the common soldier from policies made by corrupt Government officials. They are the modern version of the Vietnam-era hippies that screamed baby killer at any soldier they saw. That attitude shouldn't bother me so much, but it does.
Alia, you are right to not trust official government records.
Coming from someone who worked with Military Intelligence and Psychological Operations, I know firsthand how the truth can be distorted. I think you may have gone overboard though on your mistrust of every printed and recorded word.
How can you form an opinion or know what happened at all if you don't trust anything you hear or see? It's hard not to hit info overload in this day and age, but to give you some pointers, if you look at both official and journalist accounts and compare them, then pull out the few facts that all accounts might agree upon. You can maybe form an opinion about those facts. Read and watch foreign media if you want. Europe is very anti-America right now and there tend to be more English ready copy available through European press. Although, if you can, read some translations of news outlets from the Arab world. (I will get you some links if you want. Try googling Al-Jazeera)
There are certain facts of what has transpired that they can't deny and will faithfully report. Facts like that, and first hand experience, are what I base my knowledge on.
Still scratching my head on how you read into me being pro-Bush. Please go back and read my earlier post in this thread about benefits denied to vets.
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first off let me appologize for thinking you were pro bush. and forgive me that i do not always read the posts closely enough.
however even in this post there are a few things i don't think are correct. if i get heated it is because i feel strongly about these issues, but i do not feel threatened by the prospect of being wrong. so let us discuss with boldness our ideas and see if we can't both come up with a clearer picture? :)
Hmm, well, where do I start? First off, yes, I was talking about Desert Storm. Because of the current conflict being the second war that America has fought in Iraq, the first one in most 'official' records, or journalistic reports is being called the First Gulf War. But hey, call it Desert Storm, or the start of the shit storm, if you will. We all know what we're referencing.
Also, why would you say I'm only quoting official records aka Gov't records. The most recent thing I've read was by a British author called John Keegan. He is by no means pro-Bush. His researched account was written in a mostly non-biased manner. If anything, more critical of American policy than not. (He was NOT an embedded journalist, which would definitely cloud his judgement)
sorry :)
I'm no supporter of our current regime. I call it a regime instead of government, because they weren't really chosen by the people and they will try by any means to stay in power long after using up legal avenues. And they will try to get the country involved in their schemes. Of course Bush lied. He lies all the time. He makes sure people lie for him so he can directly deny it.
now here is where i start to have adverse reactions:
There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but by the time that was established, it was too late, we were already stuck in the mess.
see? now that is just a lie of the regime. plenty of people knew there were no weapons. the un inspectors all said there was no evidence that there was imminent threat and thats why we had to lead the 'coalition of the 'willing'' without the help of the un in the first place.
democracy now had interviews the whole year they were trying to get us in there with people giving varied and irrefutable evidence that there was no possible way for saddam to have developped any nuclear arms programs due to the ongoing bombing and embargos that the us was already engaging in against iraq since like 1992.
the un had been inspecting iraq that whole time to make sure, and they knew it was impossible, but bush thought it would be funny to flip off the un, and go ahead and do what his dad's friends said to do anyway.
and they wanted it to last forever so their buddies the rockafellers could sell guns to both sides, just like desert storm, just like vietnam.
so no, we didn't make a mistake and woops we're stuck there, we went in despite our knowledge for the profit of warmongers, and then, fuck you, get yourself out. thats really really different, and the difference is weather or not bush and cheney should be impeached, cause if it was an accident, then no one is to blame, but if bush is to blame, history requires his impeachment or else the reign of his regime will be our own faults.
Yes, Saddam did do some beneficial things for Iraqi society. He did build schools, hospitals, universities. He also had torture centers, lavish palaces, chemical weapons factories and mass graves made.
ok, so is that before or after he socialized oil in iraq? when was he building schools, when was he gassing people, because my understanding is that he gassed people when he worked for the cia, and then he rebelled from them and started building schools and hospitals. do you know where i can find a good timeline on that stuff?
Every leader does good things for his people to be seen as a great leader, but that doesn't offset killing thousands of your own people because they might be a political threat to you.
i beleive bush is doing this to us right now, and i don't think it matters what saddam was or was not doing to his citizens if attacking him was a political excuse to for weapons sales and oil dominance, and for the eventual militarization of the country.
Apparently you missed that second post. The one where I called Bush and his cronies criminals. Which makes me wonder if you're hearing what you want to hear and begging for an argument.
Someone can be pro-US military and anti-US government, it is possible. Personally, I don't see how you can't be when some young American serviceman or woman is dying today in the desert needlessly so you don't have to.
see? now that is just regime thinking, thats a total fallacy, they aren't dying so you or i don't have to, they are dying so that a few men will be made richer and given more lenience to kill and make slaves of anyone they choose.
we are told to feel guilty for not being soldiers ourselves, thats the larger message in that statement.
but it is not us who should feel guilty, it is the people who sent them to war in the first place. i am not pro - military, in the same way that i am not anti - life by being pro - choice, i am anti - brainwashing, and the military endorses brainwashing its soldiers so that they dont feel empowered to say, 'no!! i will not do that!!! it's wrong!!, i will not do that to another human being!!' and it is for not saying that that we all criticize the nazi soldiers.
our soldiers should be treated differently, but now they need to resist, they need to drop out of the military, defect, revolt, there is a time for that, and it must be honored and encorporated into military culture for just these times, when the ruler is a liar and madman!
those soldiers aren't dying so i won't have to, they are dying at his whim, and so will i if i don't do something about him! we all will!
There's a punk band from Pittsburgh called Anti-Flag. They seem to have that same problem separating the common soldier from policies made by corrupt Government officials. They are the modern version of the Vietnam-era hippies that screamed baby killer at any soldier they saw. That attitude shouldn't bother me so much, but it does.
i don't beleive in torture or treating people cruelly under any circumstances. humiliating people like that is a form of torture, but i also feel that those vets were lacking a system of dissent from their military, and some of those people who screamed baby-killer were angry upon waking from their pleasant dream of us propoganda to the reality that our gov't does not live up to it's postures of being 'for the greater good' it falls desperately short.
the vets were blamed, and that is sad, but the problem remains, that the soldiers must be empowered to say 'no!'
Alia, you are right to not trust official government records.
Coming from someone who worked with Military Intelligence and Psychological Operations, I know firsthand how the truth can be distorted. I think you may have gone overboard though on your mistrust of every printed and recorded word.
How can you form an opinion or know what happened at all if you don't trust anything you hear or see? It's hard not to hit info overload in this day and age, but to give you some pointers, if you look at both official and journalist accounts and compare them, then pull out the few facts that all accounts might agree upon. You can maybe form an opinion about those facts. Read and watch foreign media if you want. Europe is very anti-America right now and there tend to be more English ready copy available through European press. Although, if you can, read some translations of news outlets from the Arab world. (I will get you some links if you want. Try googling Al-Jazeera)
thats very interesting. i don't want to read al jazeera because i am not sure i want the cia to crack into my computer and i am just a little too scared they will. but if u say its safe i will check it out. i would like to see the link.
it makes me sick to think bush goes on national tv and tells everyone al jazeera is a terrorist newspaper when i think it is considered mainstream in the middle east. is it?
as far as what i do and do not beleive i pay not enough attention i am sure. but what i see on npr through fox i take with a grain of salt, and i try to pay extra attention to amy on democracy now. i am not yet convinced we went to the moon. i am fairly well convinced that the original thanksgiving scenario is pure fiction, why we decided to have a culture that lied about its genocide, who can tell, but i think its important that we change that. i saw the towers go down on tv, and i watched that day as all those people got in front of all those cameras and talked about planes and explotions, i remember the dust and the people that went on tv talking about how that kind of dust was only a result of explosive devices, not burning airplane fuel and collapsing buildings. i trust their testimonies, i do not trust the following broadcasts of official information that said there were no explosives. i beleive the testimonies of the people who saw the hurricane heading to new orleans and called for evacuations. i watched day after day as no help was sent by the military or private sector. i watched as shortly after the hurricane those lands were auctioned off to the highest bidder as all those areas were declared destroyed and given to the federal gov't to dole out to the same few men who profit from the war in iraq. i did not beleive the pathetic statements from the aftermath that claimed that there was nothing anyone could do. it seems clear to me that something was done, those people lost their city.
There are certain facts of what has transpired that they can't deny and will faithfully report. Facts like that, and first hand experience, are what I base my knowledge on.
Still scratching my head on how you read into me being pro-Bush. Please go back and read my earlier post in this thread about benefits denied to vets.[/quote]
sorry, i must have misunderstood. :) i do like to debate, and i sound heated, but i am sorry, i respect you, i hope that is clear.
alia
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"first off let me appologize for thinking you were pro bush. and forgive me that i do not always read the posts closely enough.
however even in this post there are a few things i don't think are correct. if i get heated it is because i feel strongly about these issues, but i do not feel threatened by the prospect of being wrong. so let us discuss with boldness our ideas and see if we can't both come up with a clearer picture? :)"
I'm glad you feel that way. I was hoping not to have to end the debate and leave you to stew. I was ready to just agree to disagree because you seemed too emotionally charged over everything. My intention was not to personally attack you. I think we disagree, but can look at the facts at where we disagree, or just trade opinions. Good. I don't have time to pull out quoted facts tonight, but I have some and can come up with some hard quotes later.
For instance this:
"now here is where i start to have adverse reactions:
There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but by the time that was established, it was too late, we were already stuck in the mess.
see? now that is just a lie of the regime. plenty of people knew there were no weapons. the un inspectors all said there was no evidence that there was imminent threat and thats why we had to lead the 'coalition of the 'willing'' without the help of the un in the first place.
democracy now had interviews the whole year they were trying to get us in there with people giving varied and irrefutable evidence that there was no possible way for saddam to have developped any nuclear arms programs due to the ongoing bombing and embargos that the us was already engaging in against iraq since like 1992.
the un had been inspecting iraq that whole time to make sure, and they knew it was impossible, but bush thought it would be funny to flip off the un, and go ahead and do what his dad's friends said to do anyway.
and they wanted it to last forever so their buddies the rockafellers could sell guns to both sides, just like desert storm, just like vietnam.
so no, we didn't make a mistake and woops we're stuck there, we went in despite our knowledge for the profit of warmongers, and then, fuck you, get yourself out. thats really really different, and the difference is weather or not bush and cheney should be impeached, cause if it was an accident, then no one is to blame, but if bush is to blame, history requires his impeachment or else the reign of his regime will be our own faults."
Bush had his own reasons for pulling the trigger on the starter pistol, I'll agree with that; and he was going to have the US go in regardless of the findings of various WMD inspections. He had his own personal agenda and his mind was made up.
Irregardless, although that seems like it ends any debate right there, it really is irrelevant to whether there were WMD or not.
You are dead on right that Iraqi scientists had little oppurtunity from Desert Storm to this war to develop new WMD.
But were they sitting on old stockpiles?
There were actually inspectors that felt that there was evidence that materials had been moved or access restricted to, that might prove the current existence of WMD. Namely, ricin, a crude element used in poison gas.
Iraqi guards were pretty comical in their attempts to stop the inspectors, but they stalled them enough to let scientists and their equipment slip away. A lot of this is in the accounts of Dr. David Kay, who was with all the inspection teams, UN and coalition led. (UNSCOM -United Nations Special Commission on Disarmament, UNMOVIC - United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, and ISG - Iraq Survey Group. He also advised the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Iraq did in fact attempt nuclear programs several times, the closest they came was at Osirak nuclear facility. This alarmed Israel so much they destroyed it in an airstrike in 1981 and effectively shut the program down.
Chemical and biological wise, its believed that most of the stockpiles that were left were hastily destroyed while the inspectors were in other locations, or there is also some evidence that they were moved across the border to Syria, a fellow Ba'ath regime led nation.
Basically, by the time they had fully debriefed the inspection teams (ISG at that point), the military ball was already rolling, so to speak. Which is why it was too late. Also, final verification came about due to the actual invasion, when we could have forces in all suspect locations at once, without Iraqi interference. No more shell game, everything exposed.
" 'Yes, Saddam did do some beneficial things for Iraqi society. He did build schools, hospitals, universities. He also had torture centers, lavish palaces, chemical weapons factories and mass graves made. '
ok, so is that before or after he socialized oil in iraq? when was he building schools, when was he gassing people, because my understanding is that he gassed people when he worked for the cia, and then he rebelled from them and started building schools and hospitals. do you know where i can find a good timeline on that stuff?"
I will look for a timeline for you. That's the second time you've brought up Saddam socializing oil. Not sure where you're going with that. I guess the short answer is that he nationalized the Iraq Petroleum Company in June 1972 and kicked out the former owners - a consortium made up of BP, Shell, Esso, Mobil and CFP (French co.) That is when Iraq officially socialized their oil. These were American, British and French companies. In order to be sure he wasn't retaliated against economically or politically, he got Soviet promises of support.
Later, in the mid-80's, he would renounce the Soviets in order to get US support against Iran, which the Soviets initially refused to do. The worst trainwreck about that was that at one point in the Iran-Iraq war, the US and Soviets were both supporting BOTH sides. Remember the Iran-Contra scandal? US money, training and technology was helping both sides, while they were both fighting each other using Soviet planes, tanks and guns.)
So, Saddam never directly worked for the CIA, but he took their money, or any US Government money that he could get his hands on.
The schools and good hospitals were built in the Sunni homelands, near Tikrit, for HIS people - he never considered the Kurds or Shi'ites his people, even though they lived within Iraqi borders. As far as he and many from his tribe were concerned, the rest could fend for themselves. Any who disagreed were dealt with harshly, even Sunnis, if they showed political dissent.
He was gassing and killing from the moment he took power in the 70's, even when he was second or third in charge.
"see? now that is just regime thinking, thats a total fallacy, they aren't dying so you or i don't have to, they are dying so that a few men will be made richer and given more lenience to kill and make slaves of anyone they choose.
we are told to feel guilty for not being soldiers ourselves, thats the larger message in that statement.
but it is not us who should feel guilty, it is the people who sent them to war in the first place. i am not pro - military, in the same way that i am not anti - life by being pro - choice, i am anti - brainwashing, and the military endorses brainwashing its soldiers so that they dont feel empowered to say, 'no!! i will not do that!!! it's wrong!!, i will not do that to another human being!!' and it is for not saying that that we all criticize the nazi soldiers.
our soldiers should be treated differently, but now they need to resist, they need to drop out of the military, defect, revolt, there is a time for that, and it must be honored and encorporated into military culture for just these times, when the ruler is a liar and madman!
those soldiers aren't dying so i won't have to, they are dying at his whim, and so will i if i don't do something about him! we all will!"
This is where I do get emotional, because I've been there. I signed up for economic reasons, some ideological reasons. Others just have no choice beyond the military.
Ultimately, though, they are volunteers, they knew what they were getting into and they know from the start that once the paper is signed there is no going back. They have a sense of duty and there are serious repurcussions for going AWOL, which is why most don't just say 'no'. Politics aside, which you'll find that many servicemen and women don't really care or follow politics that much.
So, they volunteered, you didn't - how is that your problem?, you may ask:
If no one volunteers, how would they fill the US Military?
with A DRAFT!!!
Would they draft women? Who knows in this day and age.
Hence, that is why I say that they die so you don't have to. Not because Iraq would come and invade here, if we didn't go over there, or some stupid shit like that. Simply and harshly put, they're warm bodies that volunteered, putting off a possible draft for the next few years.
"thats very interesting. i don't want to read al jazeera because i am not sure i want the cia to crack into my computer and i am just a little too scared they will. but if u say its safe i will check it out. i would like to see the link.
it makes me sick to think bush goes on national tv and tells everyone al jazeera is a terrorist newspaper when i think it is considered mainstream in the middle east. is it?
as far as what i do and do not beleive i pay not enough attention i am sure. but what i see on npr through fox i take with a grain of salt, and i try to pay extra attention to amy on democracy now. i am not yet convinced we went to the moon. i am fairly well convinced that the original thanksgiving scenario is pure fiction, why we decided to have a culture that lied about its genocide, who can tell, but i think its important that we change that. i saw the towers go down on tv, and i watched that day as all those people got in front of all those cameras and talked about planes and explotions, i remember the dust and the people that went on tv talking about how that kind of dust was only a result of explosive devices, not burning airplane fuel and collapsing buildings. i trust their testimonies, i do not trust the following broadcasts of official information that said there were no explosives. i beleive the testimonies of the people who saw the hurricane heading to new orleans and called for evacuations. i watched day after day as no help was sent by the military or private sector. i watched as shortly after the hurricane those lands were auctioned off to the highest bidder as all those areas were declared destroyed and given to the federal gov't to dole out to the same few men who profit from the war in iraq. i did not beleive the pathetic statements from the aftermath that claimed that there was nothing anyone could do. it seems clear to me that something was done, those people lost their city.
There are certain facts of what has transpired that they can't deny and will faithfully report. Facts like that, and first hand experience, are what I base my knowledge on.
Still scratching my head on how you read into me being pro-Bush. Please go back and read my earlier post in this thread about benefits denied to vets."
sorry, i must have misunderstood. :) i do like to debate, and i sound heated, but i am sorry, i respect you, i hope that is clear.
alia"
It is clear, and I respect you. If anyone should be worried about the Government, its me. I was a part of it once and now I'm pretty against it. I've said some things earlier that might get me in trouble. You? You're just one of millions - small fish to fry. Exercise your rights. Here's those links:
www.aljazeera.com (http://www.aljazeera.com) or http://english.aljazeera.net/English (http://english.aljazeera.net/English)
Don't be a victim of the very hype machine you rail against - They don't call out for Americans to be beheaded or anything, they just report the news from an Arab perspective.
New Orleans is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
I might have more to say later, but now its time for bed. Good Talk. Break!
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Alia123,
Would you mind posting here the link to the video of Naomi Wolfe doing the radio interview?
Very compelling. Yesterday I saw news footage of Gen. Michael Hayden, head of the CIA, after he testified before Congress about the destruction of torture evidence in interrogations. Creeps me out to see this military man, medals bristling on his chest, as the head of the CIA. It's just wrong and foolish for someone from the military to be in charge of spying--but the Senate confirmed him anyway. Made me think of Wolfe, and I want to send that link to others.
Thanks,
Auntie Em
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i can't, but you can see it on my blog on myspace or on my profile on myspace:
http://www.myspace.com/alia23alia23 (http://www.myspace.com/alia23alia23)
thanks for your interest :D
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i can't, i don't think, maybe i can but i am not sure how to get at it....
but you can see it on my blog on myspace or on my profile on myspace:
http://www.myspace.com/alia23alia23 (http://www.myspace.com/alia23alia23)
thanks for your interest :D
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wow, lon woodberry used to work for the Nixon crew!
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 6&start=60 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=24256&start=60)