Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: pepper53190 on June 21, 2003, 10:17:00 PM
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It was my mom and I's first return to the program that changed our lives. It was the first time since 92 that we sat through an open meetung, only this time it was in the back together watching. It was so awesome for us. I even got up and they sang Happy Straight Birthday to me for my 13 years. Let me tell you what I see different. It is so much more laid back. They do not try to run the clients by intimidating them. There was laughter and smiles (except from those who just got there)I spoke with the new guy who's running SAFE and he seems so open minded. It is not the same place anymore. I wish I could've stayed longer but I was on limited time (dinner reservations). Please feel free to email me if you want to know more, I don't get here very often any more. pepper@queenjennifer.com.......love you all and wishs of the peace I have found.
Jennifer Aguilera
90 - 92 Orlando and Tampa
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If I recall correctly, thats how ALL Open Meetings were...that was the point....
Other than that, I am not touching this one with a ten foot pole.
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but it was the whole atmosphere, even in OMR.....
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Funny, for 10 years, my mom and I attended open meetings. And for the entire 10 years, she described it that way. She even got noticably euphoric asif it were a religious experience. Meanwhile, my heart sunk closer to my stomach the closer we got to the building and I went into a funk. I suppose I covered it well enough, she certainly never noticed.
Not long ago, maybe a year, a couple of friends of mine attended OM at SAFE and they also described it as dripping with the same sense of desperation. That was not long after a few other friends witnessed a kid being assaulted, stuffed into a car and kidnapped.
And, as I recall, even back when WAMI ran their two short segments to which outsiders and professionals responded with shock and disgust, there you were saying essentially the same thing you're saying now. You still sound just like so many Program people back in the day when I would have chewed my foot off to get away from them.
Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status
--Laurence J. Peter
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My peace will be found when SAFE and all the other programs like it are CLOSED. Don't think for a minute that I can't have peace otherwise, but with respect to straight and all that, a closed SAFE would be very peaceful to me.
Is that "new guy" Brian? He isn't all that new. Please clarify...
MG8 :smokin:
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At first I was like Carmen, and was just gonna let it pass on by, then I read further down and you had to go and strike a nerve. Open Meeting Review is something that was invented by the Board of Directors, Helen Petermann, and Dr. George Ross following the disasterous events of the Tampa Screw-up. Open meetings up until that point were just run by the seat of the pants and there was alot of improvisation to them. Following the start of Open Meeting Review, the Open Meetings at the Morgan Yacht building were actually scripted and kept to a rigid time frame.
It was pure hell waiting for them to get their shit together and get it all down pat, but by late October of 1978, the meetings were pretty much over and done by 9pm on Mondays, and 10pm Fridays. I know this sounds crazy, but it really is true if you look back on it. The parents were getting fed up, and alot of them complained, and some, like my dad, stopped making payments. Once they started messing with the money flow, staff got really damned serious about making Open Meetings faster, and better. They got smarter too. They opened up the storage area and started coffee and donuts and shit, but what the parents were not aware of was that their every move and conversations were closely monitored. Staff would turn around and use this to their advantage. If parents got all chummy with eachother, and their kids had contact with each other as well, it was'nt too long before someone wound up on a refresher. More money, longer program get it? Plus Jerks like me who went through alot of newcomers got away with murder. Staff would have to be out of their minds to put me on a refresher, when I steadily cranked sucessful newcomers out of my house and onto 2nd phase like a factory. When I see stuff on the History Channel about German Engineering and Nazi efficiency, I have to laugh. Straight had them beat hands down.
[ This Message was edited by: 85 Day Jerk on 2003-06-23 13:45 ]
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Are you telling me that all I have to go is go there with my mom to get in? What a trip that would be. I'm not sure if I could hold it together long enough. I have no relationship with my mom either anyway though.
I was invited to a Mary Kay 'thingy' recently. It was crowded with women who looked very eager to sell something. I took one step into the main room and see rows of chairs. I had a near anxiety attack and had to leave. I have pretty severe trama issues if I can't even go to a Mary Kay meeting without hating it for thinking it was like a cult. I like Clinique anyway.
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1978, did we have internet? Did we have a lot of things that we have today? No, because like all things we have evolved, and I think SAFE has too. I know that there are some very painful experiences, I have had some myself. But things aren't the same it has changed and it is still changing.I have been going to the building and attending open meetings for 4 or 5 years, it was just the first time my mom wanted to attend. I respect that you all still harbour anger and resentments, but those are things that happened years ago. What harm would it be to may be entertain the thought that it is different. Well I guess same goes for me.....I can entertain the fact that some of you can't and won't let it go. ok. But I leave this forum with this....you will NEVER rid the world of programs like SAFE, you will not be the reason SAFE closes, it just won't happen. DOn't you think they have met more agressive people like you and yes some have closed, or have they? So good luck.
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Oh that was me up there, forgot to sign my name.
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I know that there are some very painful experiences, I have had some myself. But things aren't the same it has changed and it is still changing.I have been going to the building and attending open meetings for 4 or 5 years, it was just the first time my mom wanted to attend. I respect that you all still harbour anger and resentments, but those are things that happened years ago. What harm would it be to may be entertain the thought that it is different. Well I guess same goes for me.....I can entertain the fact that some of you can't and won't let it go. ok. But I leave this forum with this....you will NEVER rid the world of programs like SAFE, you will not be the reason SAFE closes, it just won't happen. DOn't you think they have met more agressive people like you and yes some have closed, or have they? So good luck. "
Oh boy, here we go. Well, All clients of these synanon based, sembler founded, etc etc programs had pain and abuse exacted on them every single day for years in most cases! NOT some, but ALL! How you think safe is so great is beyond my comprehension.
Granted, it has changed, for the worse actually.
Last I heard, there was more staff than clients. Hardly a way to run a program eh? If I and others here and abroad have anything to do with it, safe will close as well as all the abusive centers like it across this earth.
Please don't expect people to get over the treatment they received, please. I have to stop now, I am getting sick again. DAMMIT!!!!!! ::bangin:: ::puke::
MG8 :smokin:
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For as many lives as you say were saved by this cult many more were DESTROYED. For the record, I don't really see these places getting shut down ever either, because there will always be people like you willing to jump on the bandwagon, just like religious fanatics will always keep the churches full of people and money. I will never be one of them, to do so would be to surrender all of what my heart feels. I'm not going to blind myself to see. Everyone is different.
You seem like a nice person with the best intentions. I personally don't agree with you however.
They want people to walk away convinced of something good. That's the way they sell it...
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You know Pepper, I appreciate what you say, I just don't agree with it in totality. For what I do agree with you on, I too have attended open meeting at Safe, agree that Brian is much more open minded than his predecessor, and agree that changes have been made. However, Some of the changes are for the worse like the automatic "addict" label the kids are "encouraged" to place on themselves. This is bullshit at its very core.
And Pepper, there they were...right there on those two tiny rows...kids in captivity full of despair and desperation singing the same old songs I sang at the seed 30 years ago, with the same feigned enthusiasm and the look of shock similar to a prisoner of war on their faces. Then there were the girls sitting with fake smiles and their hands out in group behavior style asking for permission to pee (and which I was informed would "cost them" because it was being done at a time other than prescribed). The kids "motivated", took the mike and spoke in words expected of them, and then the parents took their turn humiliating their kids on the Mike. and again I made the observation I made 30 years ago, that the people on the opposite side from the kids seemed to take some perverse pleasure in the captivity and helplessnes of those emotionally hurting children on the other side.
On the wall were the same slogans Art Barker originated in 1970.
Yep, changes have been made Pepper. However, you can spray all the cologne you want on a pile of shit and underneath, you still have shit.
What kind of humanism expresses its reluctance to sacrifice military casualties by devastating the civilian economy of its adversary for decades to come?
Henry Kissinger
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I am a bit confused here, maybe because OMR was somethng different for some branches...as it seems to be for SAFE. Open Meeting Review for us was the biggest, loudest, and most violent rip rap of the week. It was always held directly after Open Meeting, no parents and usually always run by Senior Staff. Everbody felt the same...if you made it through OMR unscathed, it was a good day...
I will never forget the seemingly tangible static energy of anxiety, fear and loathing that filled that room every Friday night before OMR. Heads were gonne roll, and you could almost "hear" the Fifth phasers chomping at the bit to do it. They used this time to really rip up the newest kids for the first time about their mic talks and getting honest about their intake. All of the weeks juiciest stuff was reserved for OMR, so it could be exploited to the fullest. Didnt matter what phase you were on, and they seemed to love the idea of setting back kids w/out of town parents so that they wouldnt get to spend the weekend with them.
We also had a CMR or Closed Meeting Rap which was held the following Monday after the parent meeting. It was a lesser version of OMR, but could be none the less horrific. Thats what made weekends so awful sometimes.
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Wow! Did that bring back memories! At Growing Together we sat in church pews as did the parents, facing us. Between us was a partition on a track that they would slide across the room at the end of Open Meeting to prevent you from getting even an extra glimpse of your families after the "show" was over. As soon as that curtain closed it was all over. Senior staff would be lingering around and the 5th phasers would be giving each other knowing glances and you just *knew* that something terrible was about to happen. I remember a couple times when executive staff even stayed around to participate in the slaughtering. This was all very strategically timed-- it was the time when there would be the most people on hand to aid in the execution, and another kick in the head was that the very people who brought you into this world were only 3 yards away eating donuts.
I have never been on the other side of Open Meeting, but it doesn't seem fair to assume that the kids are treated in the same manner as the guests. When is that ever the case?
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Let's see, in the not so distant past it was okay to whip people as a form of punishment, to place them in the stocks, to have them pilloried. Torture was a perfectly acceptable method of obtaining a confession. NONE of these things are legal in the US anymore.
Even less time in the past a standard treatment for BPD, Bi-polar, psychosis, schitzophrenia and probably ADHD was a lobotamy. Then came shock therapy as the miracle cure.
The point is, saying there will always be places like the seed, straight, safe is pure horse manure. The effectiveness of the "program" are far outweighed by the side effects. Taking someone, depriving them of their freedom and dangling basic Human Rights in front of them like a carrot until they perform like circus monkies is Monstrous. These programs are already not accepted as a mainstream treatment method for addiction. The biggest issue I have is the indivual is given no choice to say they are an addict or not. This in itself voilates the very founding principle of self-help type therapy. Telling a child that they have this "incurable disease" at what? 13, 14, 15? I believe children are sold so short on intelligence. I am certain they can identify BS when they smell it.
Well, I digress. This for of treatment will fall by the wayside and only be a footnote in some abnormal psyc text. People will read it and think to themselves, "How could they have been so stupid to believe that was helping behavior?"
CL
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What harm would it be to may be entertain the thought that it is different.
Hmm, let's see. Does that apply to other instances of criminal behavior? How about to child molesting? What harm could come from entertaining the idea that your babysitter might have changed his ways and given up his sexual interest in toddlers? How about wife beaters. Aw, go ahead! People change and you know you love him. Just give it one more try and see if this time he doesn't beat you black and blue. What harm could possibly come from trusting unrepentant criminals to just quit being unrepentant criminals?
Well I guess same goes for me.....I can entertain the fact that some of you can't and won't let it go. ok. But I leave this forum with this....you will NEVER rid the world of programs like SAFE, you will not be the reason SAFE closes, it just won't happen. DOn't you think they have met more agressive people like you and yes some have closed, or have they? So good luck. "
"In 1978, did we have internet? Did we have a lot of things that we have today? No, because like all things we have evolved...."
We're also not children any more. We're adults with children of our own, jobs, homes, businesses and all the credibility that goes along with it.
You can keep on telling yourself that we're just bitter druggies who can't get over something that happened 20 years ago. But, deep down, I think you know how lame that is. We're just responsible adults who know what it's like to be a child held by a cult of manic, sadistic abstinance freaks and we're responsible enough to not stand by and let it go when we see it happening now. So... what's your excuse? Oh yeah.
On 2003-06-23 07:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
I have been going to the building and attending open meetings for 4 or 5 years, it was just the first time my mom wanted to attend.
In other words, you've never left the cult. You're still a 'member in good standing'. Maybe if you'd get a little didtance and perspective, you'd see what the vast majority of us do.
BTW, don't you feel a little funny hanging onto the Program after all these years? I mean, most people who graduate eventually go on to get a life? How come you're still going to OMs?
The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people equally in war and peace. And covers with the shield of it's protection all classes of men at all times and under all circumstances.
--US Supreme Court, Ex Parte Milligan
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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Greg,
Wonderfuly put. Thank you for finding the words I would like to have expressed myself.
I remember the protest last year and my dealings woth Mr. Seeber I for one do not trust Mr. Seeber and would never let him have any say in the care of my children
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BTW, don't you feel a little funny hanging onto the Program after all these years? I mean, most people who graduate eventually go on to get a life? How come you're still going to OMs?
Actually, no I don't feel funny. I think we all choose our own ways of dealing with things. I could never get over not graduating after 2 1/2 years, it was a big issue for me. I went to AA meetings and there they were, people to relate to so we hung out. I have hung out with several generations of graduates. I felt comfort with them. I guess if you see that as not having a "life", that's ok. For me I see it as the way I choose to survive. I have read your story, Antigen and I have nothing but respect for you and what you have been through. What I went through doesn't compare by any means. Maybe it's a little harsh for me to expect people to feel the same way I do. I wish I could take away everyones pain, I know it sucks. I was just trying to help I guess. Peace to all.
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Jennifer,
I'd put money down on - ::rainbow::
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Pepper, this is a forum and you are entitled to say whatever you want to. Those that take offense to your opinion and words are not acting in the spirit of an open forum.
That being said, I find it more than interesting that you would, after being released from the program without graduating, hang out at AA meetings and open meetings at SAFE, and still talking about how the progam saved you.
I too have my doubts about you being an addict. I take that back,perhaps you are addicted to the program...a program Junkie? This is just a random observation not based on anything substantial, Pepper, I just get this feeling that it may be true.
If you truly feel comfortable around people speaking and acting in cultic fashion and helpless children in captivity, then perhaps you should think about why. I for one am creeped out whenever I get around program people, and seeing those kids in group was way over the top. It brought back memories of a ruined childhood for me. And by the way, SAFE today has more in common with the Seed than you are letting on. the changes for the most part are superficial. The cultic modality based on reward/humiliation/compliance/punishment/assimilation remains intact. The people running the show there didn't even realize where most of their techniques originated from.
Funny how the same experience is perceived so differently by two people, eh?A drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa
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I * ::heart:: * smart people! :nworthy:
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On 2003-06-23 06:26:00, mo wrote:
I was invited to a Mary Kay 'thingy' recently. It was crowded with women who looked very eager to sell something. I took one step into the main room and see rows of chairs. I had a near anxiety attack and had to leave. I have pretty severe trama issues if I can't even go to a Mary Kay meeting without hating it for thinking it was like a cult. I like Clinique anyway.
You know, this is a result of the program that I have carried with me for 30 years. I hate groups of people. I refuse to sit in chairs lined up in rows. Self help groups creep me out beyond belief, and anytime there is a group of people and a speaker, I am uncomfortable. For years, when talked into going to church, I would act like a child and often get up and excuse myself and wait outside, and I NEVER understood why I was so full of anxiety in these situations. Mostly I didn't understand why because I had closed the section of my brain that consciously dealt with my experience at the seed.
So here I am 30 years later. I won't join the rotary, I won't join the chamber of commerce, I have turned down repeated offers to speak , and I won't get up in front of any group and tell them how I feel about anything. And, the funny thing is, It took me about 25 years to figure out why.
:silly: Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul alike.
-- John Muir
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W O R D.
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On 2003-06-24 18:50:00, Anonymous (Pepper) wrote:
I wish I could take away everyones pain, I know it sucks. I was just trying to help I guess. Peace to all.
Thanks, but I've got it handled. I'll admit it was tough at first, striking out into the world as an escapee from an alleged drug rehab with little support, no education and a nagging neurosis over so many things. Where was all the Straightling love 20 years ago? Oh yeah, that's right. They were trying to have me arrested and court ordered back into the gulag. I can't imagine how much worse it would have been if I'd actually had an addiction to deal with at the time.
But that was 20 years ago; before my dad defected from the cult, before I became a mother, before I married my husband, build a business, bought a house and all the rest.
I'm not doing this--the forum and other muck raking--to treat some relentless pain over things past.
To draw an allegory, if I see a house on fire, I listen for sirens. If I hear the sirens, I know they've got it handled so I might get out my camera and take pictures to sell to the local paper. If I don't hear the sirens, I don't have time to take pictures. I'm calling the fire department. It's not some strange response to early trauma involving fire. I like to think that if anyone saw my house buring down they'd do the same; if only for their own safety to prevent it spreading to the next house.
As I've said dozens of times before, I'm doing this because I found out that this same cult is still messing with kids, largely on public (my)funding and in defiance of law. Very few people who haven't been through it first-hand really understand what's going on there, so few are sounding an alarm. It's different from crimes like robery, rape and securities fraud. Everyone clearly understands that those are crimes and the victims are entitled to redress. Nothing I have to do there but read the headlines and pull for the good guys.
But this is different. Every day, this industry shanghais and tortures hundreds and thousands of kids right out in the open. They even advertise mercinary kidnapping services that use shackles and drugs to abduct young adults without a warrant or trial. And most people just say "ah well, ya' know, teenagers can be 'difficult'" :eek: Difficult!
Jenny, just a year ago a kid tried to make a run for the picket line after open meeting. According to some folks who used to do a lot of picketting, that happens a whole lot. I'm sure that if the Sarasota branch had had protestors, I would have anguished over whether or not to give it a shot and certainly wouldn't have tried very hard to stop anyone who did.
Right in front of all the parents, group members tackled this kid to the ground and stuffed him, kicking and screaming, into a car. The parent driving the car then fled the scene before the cops could arrive. When the cops got there, Brian and some other parents presented some other kid to lie to them and tell them it had been him pretending to try and run, but he'd just been fooling around. (what's the first and most impotent rule??) We all have a pretty good idea what the other kid's next week or so was probably like. But there's no help for him or a few thousand others like him. The cops bought the utterly transparant fiction and stonewalled, refusing to initiate any serious investigation.
I have to confess, it pisses me off that people like you continue to help these sadistic lunatics cover up their crimes. I have a pretty good idea why you do it and I know there's not an ounce of mallice behind it. I think you're just duped. And that's sad. In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
--Martin Luther King
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On 2003-06-25 07:50:00, GregFL wrote:
You know, this is a result of the program that I have carried with me for 30 years. I hate groups of people. I refuse to sit in chairs lined up in rows. Self help groups creep me out beyond belief, and anytime there is a group of people and a speaker, I am uncomfortable.
Me 2. Before the program, I sucked at math. It took me 2 tries + summer school to pass Algebra I. I also aced almost every other course I ever took, except for French, without trying. The only other difficulty I had was with essay questions (I shit you not!) How do you ever know when you're done? Or whether or not you're giving the answer the teacher was looking for? I mean, an open ended question can have almost infinite correct answers.
The one thing I excelled at was anything on stage. That helped me immensely in getting through the program. I invented a character, Virginia, who could play the part convincingly and without any thought or hesitation. But it totaly ruined me for anything like acting or public speaking.
I learned how to be painfully self concious, which had been a totally foreign concept to the kid who'd existed in my previous life. It's fun to act or make a speech when the audience is in on the deception and the stakes are only applause or not. And you can always just forget those incidents when the applause didn't come through just as soon as you figure out why. It's an entirely different game when the stakes are higher and the decpetion is secret. Some people get off on that, but I'm not one of them.
On the other hand, in the interest of doing with what you have, I can think of a couple of times in my adult life when my hyper-sensitivity to cultishness probably saved me a whole lot of trouble.
There was the time when my boyfriend's brother talked us into attenting 'Bible Study' with The Way, Internatonal. Or the time I went to apply for a retail job only to be herded with a batch of 15 or so other hopeful applicants through their rah-rah session then turned out with 'experienced salesmen' to learn how to break those quotas and earn those perfs!!
I was so amazed at what I saw, I actually agreed to go along for the day just to find out how far they'd take it. It was amazing! My assigned mentor informed me that, after only 2 months, he'd already sold or borrowed against all of his assets and his wife was divorcing him. But he was strong, you see, and determined to get rich through door-to-door cheap perfume sales! He would NOT be weak and let anyone keep him from his grand asspirations!
I finally had had enough when, at around 6 or 7PM, he still hadn't met his quota and couldn't go back without having met it or they would doc his commissions for the unsold goods. He also would have lost his unpaid commissions if he'd taken me back to the office (and my car) without having met his quota. I don't think he was supposed to confide these things in me.
So we learn from our mistakes. I do wish I could stomach regular toastmaster meetings and the like. But, on the other hand, there's a lot of cultism in our society. And I can't help being thankful for having been made pretty much allergic to it. And there's no way in God's green Earth that I would be a programer or a freelance writer otherwise. And I'm pretty happy with how things have turned out.
America when will you be angelic
When will you take off your clothes....
America after all it is you and I who are perfect
Not the next world.
--Allen Ginsberg
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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Well, by this time next year, that safe place may not exist anymore. Who knows? It may sound cruel to take a support group away from people who are still using it, but sometimes things like this happen, and in safe's case, it is necessary.
MG8 :smokin:
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. I can't have those conversations without getting really annoyed, even when those conversations are truly needed to mend a friendship/relationship.
Yes, I too try to avoid and dread these sort of conversations. Hate 'em. And, if I only knew then what I know now! When I was going to marriage counseling, it was before I had visited these boards. I never thought of mentioning straight, never considered the effects of it on me, etc...
Being put on the spot about "how I feel" about something makes me :flame: (gee, wonder why?) It's good to know I'm not the only one. Maybe there's a reason for how "fucked-up" I can be at times... :silly: Anyway, it sure is weird how my outlook on MY life has 'sobered' since I've been visiting these boards, no pun intended...I look back with less romanticized longing for younger days. Does that make sense? I used to wish I could go backwards. To just party till I drop...
never a care...now, I really do look back diffently. At my entire life after straight, I mean... :???: :lol:
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Ginger's story
I was so amazed at what I saw, I actually agreed to go along for the day just to find out how far they'd take it. It was amazing! My assigned mentor informed me that, after only 2 months, he'd already sold or borrowed against all of his assets and his wife was divorcing him. But he was strong, you see, and determined to get rich through door-to-door cheap perfume sales! He would NOT be weak and let anyone keep him from his grand asspirations!
:smokin:
Damnit Ginger, these new buttons make me aggressive!!!!!!!!!! Fuck it, I'm sayin' it!!!
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uh oh, well who could have written the above post???? hmmmm, let's see...
could it have been..........S A T A N ? :wave:
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Nope, wasn't me...although I appeciate the hateful scorn... :smokin:
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Public speaking was the course that gave me the most fits in college. It was so wierd, getting up in front of a group that looked a whole lot like a 5th phase rap and have to give a convincing performance about some topic that was assigned to me. Then the feedback from the class. It was horrible! The least little correction and I was crushed and humiliated far beyond normal. By the end of the term I was a basket case and hadn't had a full nights sleep for more than a month and rarely slept for two nights in a row. The exact same paranoia. Until I read this thread, I had never put it togather.
Much therapy later during the course of my 10 year college career. My therapist talked me into going to Panama City, FL with my fraternity for spring break. (I really miss Spring Break.) During this time I tried several new things. Like actually talking to women I hadn't yet met in a night club setting. Come to find out, I was pretty good at this. This opened my mind to several things. Some of these are obvious, some not quite so obvious. While it takes a lot of effort, I can successfully talk to people in a public environment. I do not like it and I have to prepare myself before hand, I am good at it. I, however, when put on the spot tend to collaspe. My CIO is assisting with getting over this also. He doesn't take "I don't know," for an answer.
About the best have done is giving the best man's toast at the rehearsal dinner for my best friend. I told some of the funnier stories and finished with, "May your love be as such that when one of your cries, the other tastes salt." Hell no I didn't come up with that! Looked it up on the Internet. Thing is, I knew the crowd wasn't hostile, that I would have to do it, and the time and place. Like I said, if I can prepare myself, I do pretty good.
CL
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On 2003-06-26 07:44:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"Nope, wasn't me...although I appeciate the hateful scorn... :smokin: "
:grin:
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I really enjoyed everything everyone said. I thought about a lot of it. Everyone talked about phobias and such. Weird thing I came up with, is that I think I might have gone to the other end of the spectrum (extreme). The comment someone said about me being a self help junkie and so on is about right. I love public speaking and talking out in large groups of people. I have no problem talking about how I feel, and analyzing situations. I suppose in a way I am a little concerned about this finding, but it seems to work for me. So what would be wrong with it. I guess I just don't know any other way. I too have question my alcholism, but I don't think I would know what to do. I's a mom and stuf now so it's to much of a risk to find out, besides what would be the big deal. I live in California now, and I stopped going to meeting about 2 years ago. I was tierd of listening to everyone white knuckling through life, I was beyond that and felt like it was time to move on. Sound snobby? No, cause I respect were they are, it's just not where I am. I am recently trying to find a shrink, cause I can't deal with daily desicions and I can't seem to work with any issues with out someone to guide me. I know I am this way because of STRAIGHT, but I have had choices and the ability to change, I just can't figure out why I won't make that change. Too comfortable perhaps......who knows, those are just my thoughts.
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On 2003-06-27 13:01:00, pepper53190 wrote:
"I have no problem talking about how I feel, and analyzing situations. I suppose in a way I am a little concerned about this finding, but it seems to work for me."
When I am round people I know I am the same way. My issue here was the straight definition of honesty. I found myself talking about things that are really no one elses business. Learning when to stop was key to continued growth.
I was tierd of listening to everyone white knuckling through life, I was beyond that and felt like it was time to move on. Sound snobby? No, cause I respect were they are, it's just not where I am.
I know exactly where you are coming from here. I attended NA and AA meetings regularly for better than 14 years. About the 10th year I really started doubting that I was indeed any kind of "ism," but continued doing the same things. Not out of fear, but because I have learned through time that I tend to make hasty decisions that carry long term consequences. This was definitly not something I was going to play around with. The hellish thing is, who are you going to talk to about it? My long term "friends" in AA and NA? They just told me I was in denial and refused to listen. Someone in another post was talking about getting nothing but program dogma back about questions of the same sort. Ask a counselor? Same thing. I did have one agree with me that I wasn't a drunk or a dope fiend. He thought I was a sex addict. Yeah, right. Plus I could find nothing to feel bad about if indeed I was. So what! I guess I was fortunate that during college I developed some really meaningful relationships with persons, both male and female, that had never been told they had an "ism." I found they would listen to me and I could get unbiased feedback from them. The only issue was they had never seen me during my wilder days. I did have contact with some of the people that had been friends with me and talked to them about this and got a big, "Duh! So what's the problem?"
I just can't figure out why I won't make that change. Too comfortable perhaps......who knows, those are just my thoughts.
I only make turn in different directions when my desire to do something different overcomes the inertia of comfort. Otherly, if what I am doing is working, perhaps I shouldn't fix it.
Clay
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"...a kinder,gentler,machine gun hand."
Neil Young
I would suggest reading, "Smoke and Mirrors:The War on Drugs and the Politics of Failure". Sorry, can't remember the author's name.
I heard the Nazis opened a new and "not the same as it used to be" concentration camp. Maybe you should attend one of their open meetings!
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"Taking someone, depriving them of their freedom and dangling basic Human Rights in front of them like a carrot until they perform like circus monkies is Monstrous." Claydog
Well put, Clay. I envy and covet the power of your brain. Your quote here is to the point like a blunt force trauma. Hello? Straight sucked! But what I've come to understand is that Straight HAS evolved over the years, not entirely, but largely. Even in the years I was in 1988-1990, things changed dramatically. The kinder gentler Straight that is SAFE is the result of the original Straight becoming a "lawsuit hazard" in the eighties and early nineties. The violent factors have probably been curbed for a more reasonable approach, but I don't think it matters, if it is following the basic Straight modality, it is still inevitably a failure.
Most kids who are put into these programs for intervention are NOT addicts, they are just inducted into a group of people who learned to chant that they are! They don't really belong in 12 step groups where the people hit serious lows. Not that AA or NA will run anybody away except Dave Chapelle in Half Baked, but it does matter if you are not an alcoholic or addict who spends the majority of his or her time with real recovering alcoholics and addicts. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to go to AA or NA if that's what you like, but you don't necessarily want to look for approval and company from these types. Some of them are very immoral sober people, for one. I have met some sorry ass sober people. If you are not an alcoholic or addict, you need (may want to think about) to hang out with people who have a life, that haven't hit bottom, that haven't lost it all and are trying to pick up the pieces of their life after the fact.
Look, I've spent my time in recovery circles, and it was fine. Really. But then a guy I knew from Straight told me to watch them and not to blindly trust them. I decided to observe in the meetings more, and you know what. They didn't have all that much that I really wanted. Some are okay, so I am not trying to say all AA's suck or something dumb like that. All I am saying is that you may want to evaluate your situation. Would you be in these scenes in the first place if you weren't put in treatment at a young age? Do you have trouble getting along with people outside these programs?
You may be able to do better than that is all I'm saying. If I sound overly critical of AA's, I'm not trying to, I still know some and consider them friends, but I do not attend AA today, and NOW I am sober. I wasn't able to stay sober when I went to meetings alot. Ironic. Anyway, there is life after treatment and AA/NA and I am living proof. I am not going to call myself an "alcoholic" or a "recovering alcoholic" BECAUSE THOSE WORDS DO NOT DESCRIBE ME, DEFINE ME, OR APPLY TO ME IN ANY WAY AT ALL! I don't drink because I don't want to drink and AA didn't do it for me, neither Straight Inc.-I just happen to know someone High Up that knows how to honk my horn to the tune of Dixie! Yee-haw!
Good luck, Jennifer Pepper Aguilera, in finding your new unscrewed up friends outside of the 12 step taverns and whorehouses and definitely way outside the OM's. Sincerely, Scott
Disclaimer: These are my thoughts. Do what you feel is right for you if you didn't already know that.
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I just read the post before Clay's where you said you quit AA for 2 years, boy, do I feel like a dumbass. But it sounds like you are on the right track if you were able to figure that much out. You don't have to drink or take drugs to "find out" whether or not you're an alkie or druggie. So don't be afraid to think that you aren't because not being an addict doesn't automatically mean you have to get high either, you know? It just means you don't have to depend on recovery programs to feel good about your life or stable. I am glad to hear that you quit 12 step programs because alot of people get dependent on them and they are afraid to move on from it for fear of relapse, that isn't living, in my view.
I also object to confessing "I am an alcoholic" every day as if this is the sum total of who we are. You go into an AA meeting and say "I don't know who I am. Who am I?" They will answer you, "you are an alcoholic". It's quite sad. "Is that all I am?" "Yes, we're all exactly the same, now read 'How it Works' and shut up before you give us all the willies with your terminal uniqueness."
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People who are involved in AA tragically limit themselves to only other people involved in these programs. In other words they are ADDICTED to the program. A good psychotherapist (NOT counseling) can help anyone understand why they did drugs to begin with. IT is not a genetic disease. There has never been any gene that has been found. Finding out why you are the way you are and why you do what you do is phenomenal. You then have the power over your life. It is hard though to bring up and talk about and feel your past in therapy but it will liberate you from your anxiety, fears, rage, that you now feel.
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On 2003-07-02 05:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"People who are involved in AA tragically limit themselves to only other people involved in these programs. In other words they are ADDICTED to the program.
It may be wise to remember that Straight Incorporated was born from The Seed. The Seed was founded by an AA devotee named Art Barker. There have been many offshoots of AA that have become cult-like and dangerous. The Seed was but one. Straight, Inc. was nothing more than a continuation of this dangerous AA offshoot. Those that blindly follow AA are no better than those that blindly follow anything.
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The part I found in AA/NA, that truly angers-saddens me is that when I stopped espousing the program dogma and talking about how NA/AA saved my life, all the supposed friends in these programs evaporated. They stopped talking to me, listening to me, hanging out with me, ahowing me the basic respect due most humans. At one point I found that most of the recovery guru's in NA were sleeping with my girlfriend. Needless to say this is when I found a therapist and started making friends outside these programs. Talk about feeling betrayed! Anyway, I started pay keen attention to persons I met. This is also the worst point in my life after straight and when I started seeing a therapist. I, as suggested by one of the anon's, started looking at root causes, what caused me to be the way I am. I do not believe in being doomed by genetics and do believe the way people turn out is a combination of choices and predispositions. I think no mental disorders are permanent except for the organic ones.
Just my opinions
CL
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Yep, the above is me. Oops!
CL
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I just had to comment about the thread's title, I know it has been posted for quite some time but "I attended an open meeting this month" is a damn disturbing statement analagous to "I decapitated a prostitute last night" or "I had sex with my uncle yesterday"...chilling.
:scared:
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Anon,
Thank you for saying what I was thinking. I would no sooner walk into an open meeting now than I would stick a feather up my ass and fly.
I do however have a sick fantasy of showing up at "THE BUILDING" in my clerical collar and kicking some Executive Staff Ass. Just a little fantasy from the resident ordained minister on the forum.
your bro,
MichaelYou can lead a camel to water but you can't make it stink (any more than it already does)
-- Job
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If you need to get sober, AA can help, but only so far, in my view. It is limited, but it may be better than crazy drunk behavior. My point is that with AA, you NEVER graduate! You are to be meeting dependent forever or you are JUST WRONG!
Who made that rule up? In the early days of AA, they didn't have but MAYBE one meeting a month. The alcoholic had to basically shoulder most of the burden of staying sober and didn't have to check in with other recovering drunk three times a day. Now, it has morphed into an exclusive society with no relevance to the rest of society.
Poor Claydog's sponsor was probably one of the one's banging his girlfriend. I tell you them guys are degenerate giggolo sobriety chip freaky dekey's. You can't trust them $@#$% weirdos. It's like get away from me you crazy psychos, keep your nasty principles off of my girlfriend's chin! No offense, Clay, I just empathize. That's just awful how they can act so "upstanding" and be so lowdown on the sly.
To New Beginnings ::cheers::
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I spent 13 hours in SAFE a year or so ago...just observing. Needless to say, I didn't feel so good when I left, nor did I sleep well for some time after.
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On 2003-07-04 03:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
Poor Claydog's sponsor was probably one of the one's banging his girlfriend.
To New Beginnings ::cheers:: "
How did you know?
CL
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Poor Claydog's sponsor was probably one of the one's banging his girlfriend.
To New Beginnings "
Clay wrote:
How did you know?
Either I am a prophet or I have seen my share of AA flunkies. It doesn't surprise me one bit. The AA rhetoric I heard was that they are "winners" if they don't take a drink today, which is crazy. You gotta do a lot more than that to be a "winner" in my book. But when you're in these meetings day in and out, you tend to absorb the fibs and cliches. I couldn't agree that these seducers of many new and unstable women to the program were "winners", but "sinners", yea the very hounds of hell sporting 30 day chips. I better stop before I alienate the spies on the boards who are secretly seducing women with their 30 day AA chip wisdom and wit.
I have been sober for almost 28 months now and I refuse to go back to AA where the most sobriety I had was 5 1/2 months on the marijuana maintence program. I recently thought about going back just to visit, but I don't see any point in it. It's like deciding to downgrade everything on your home computer so that it's slower and more time consuming.
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We used to get in trouble if we didn't have smiles on our faces while we sang those stupid songs during open meeting, "and when I bee-came a Pathing, all my feelings were understood." God, I hated that song. EMSR
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"a pathing?" not pathling huh?
hmh.
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On 2003-07-06 14:50:00, SurvivorEMSR wrote:
"We used to get in trouble if we didn't have smiles on our faces while we sang those stupid songs during open meeting, "and when I bee-came a Pathing, all my feelings were understood." God, I hated that song. EMSR"
Oh? A new song on the play list? Well then! Everything's changed. I feel better now. I hated all the forced elation, hugging, touching. The worst, though, was when someone was getting 'restrained' and crying out and we'd have to sing Zipity-do-dah at high decibles so as to drown out the unpleasantness happening on the floor just off to the side of group.
The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
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When I am round people I know I am the same way. My issue here was the straight definition of honesty. I found myself talking about things that are really no one elses business. Learning when to stop was key to continued growth.
I haven't read responses to this topic in a while. I recently lost a job for the very reason Clay from above said. I could never learn when to shut my mouth. I always feel it nessecar to talk about how I feel about something. I don't know how to fake not being upset about something. I am starting to get very helpless about not controlling emotions. I started new meds even (lithium) and they aren't even helping. My god the things I say to people, and it is NONE of their business. They probably wonder what the hell is my problem. And shit, since I stopped going to AA, I have NO social life whatso ever, I don't know what to talk about to regular normal people. fuck what a failure I feel I am.
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I hope that you have gone back and read your past writtings on this...... I too felt a certain belonging in the OM as I sat there and could relate and feel a sence of normalcy... Unfortunatly it was the programing I recieved as a child rearing its ugly head telling me that I would be nothing w/out straight..
After many years of deprogramming I finaly came to understand why I went back in the first place "Morbid recollection" Please do some reading on Patty hearst and also the Stockholm Syndrome. It will help you to realise why you still needed to find goodness in a heinous action brought on by Evil people. I have meet Brian Seeber and I will tell you that he is just as EVIL as the rest and inspite of the numerous reports by professionals Brian insists that coersion and abuse is the way to conform the thoughts of children. That it is OK to kidnapp a child in the night, that it is ok to break the spirit of a child removing all individuality and in turn replace the thoughts and spiritual beliefs with his own docterin the docterin of SEED STRAIGHT now known as SAFE. I was at the newest Bldg recently and the CHILDREN are still prisioners. The windows were covered. The doors guarded. The children still being punished for seeking their own individuality. I hope that you have come to some sense of independance, and now realise the grave mistake it was to return. Just as it would be harmful for and alcoholic to go to a bar and believe that the bar was GOOD and Kind. So is it try try and justify to yourself that "Maybe it wasn't that bad" "They have changed" Reminds me of the battered spouse syndrome. "They said their sorry They said they've changed. Maybe they have.. So I'll put myself in harms way again." As we all know this is a farce.. As is the supposed changes at SAFE.
Please don't take this as a put down as I know that the first post was over a year ago. I hope and pray that you now see the light.
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I'm glad you're seeing the light, but I'm sorry how painful your discoveries are becoming Jen. What you're going through is why I tried to self medicate (alcohol&drugs) myself through my pain and frustration for almost a decade. For the past three years is was just alcohol and now just cigarettes. I've tried every drug that my doctor would prescribe for everything from anxiety attacks, depression, posttraumatic stress disorder, borderline personality disorder, to insomnia, or lack of motivation. I have found that unless there really is some chemical imbalance that is fixed by the use of any of these anti-depressants or psycho- stimulants, mood stabilizers, tranquilizers or benzodiazapans (such as valium), I have yet to find any that are "just for me." I played the hopscotch game with meds from my doctor/psychiatrist for about one solid year. Then I picked one that stabilized me and helped me function in everyday life, and used it until I realized I didn't need it to be *me anymore. I would not have come as far as I feel I have with out him as my doctor and counselor. I needed years of real therapy. Now it's just me and I see him around once a month. Medication is a temporary solution. It can be very frustrating. Unless you are schizophrenic, bipolar, diabetic, or anything else that requires long term medication, you won't need them forever. You'll be better soon with not needing anything but your own mind to help you decide things. What it takes is training. You have to re-train yourself and your mind on, "How to think and live in the real world." Saying what you are reeeeeally thinking is rarely acceptable.
It takes time, and you may need counseling, but you'll find that, your emotions will no longer control your impulses. You will be free from all of the guilt and fear they fed us for vitamins. You will be YOU again. I only wish the very best of luck and hope to you along your path. You'll be all right.
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"Saying what you are reeeeeally thinking is rarely acceptable."
In no way am I trying to say that saying what you mean is not a good thing in most cases. What I am talking about is when you want to "go off on" someone or "give them a piece of your mind" However, saying anything at all a lot of times is just a bad idea, hence, "you have the right to remain silent" and so forth.
Anyway... :smile: Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
Peter McWilliams
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Hey there, Jen. Welcome back to reality. I mean that in the warmest and most sincere way. I know it's a cold shock.
Even though I fought to get out and you've worked pretty hard at staying in, I think I have an idea how you feel now. See, it wasn't just the two years at Straight for me. That was preceded by about 10 years of being the little sister in a Seed family. I remember sitting on the rocks at a Sarasota beach at sunset thinking "careful what you wish for". I'd gotten out, sure. And, true to my word and hopes, I had no problem mastering a job and a place to stay. So, now what?
Nothing. I couldn't think of a single thing I wanted to do or anyone I wanted to see or anything. It was frightening. As a little kid, I used to play at some wild daydreams. One favorite of mine was wondering what if I'm the only real person and everything else is an illusion or the other way around. What if I don't exist. Well that thought hit me only it was not fun or interesting, it was absolutely terrifying!
Back then, I decided to go back to Pompano where I'd spent my first 15 years or so and see if anything looked familiar. I was trying, litterally, to remember who I was. I suppose if I were in your shoes right now, I'd try something like that. Can you think of any old friends, teachers, neighbors, anyone from before the Program who you might want to look up? I know it's been a very long time. But it's not un-normal for people to get curious and just drop someone a line out of the blue and see how they're doing. Or try and think of something along the lines of a hobby or area of study that you've always thought about doing or a place you've wanted to visit and just throw yourself into it. That's pretty much how I became a programer.
You'll get another job, don't worry about that. And you'll get back on stride. I wish I could tell you that the whole impact of the Program will just go away. But I don't think it ever really does. I count myself lucky to have my husband's oldest and best friends as my own. But I also envy them. It's not exactly the same as having my own history and my own old friends.
But I do have all the good and all the bad that I've made for myself over the past 20 years. That untethered feeling does pass afther awhile.
As to drugs, when I get a real bad attack of it, I swear to you, St. John's Wort works for me. It has to be either fresh or tinctured, though. The dried herb capsules are practically worthless. But it doesn't go with other psyche drugs. You might read up on it and see if your shrinker is willing to help you give it a go. The nice thing about it is that you really don't have to take it all the time, every day or anything. I just use a few teaspoons full in a cup of water when I want it, which is only once in a week or two anymore.
Anyway, I'm sure you'll be OK in the long run. If nothing else, watch some international news on tv and consider that it could be far worse and be thankful.
To go to Journal of Applied Polymer Science go to http://www3.interscience.wiley.com (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com) and then journal search and put the journal number and year
-- Journal of Applied Polymer Science Vol. 47, 1984
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I unfortuneatly don't remember much before the program. I went back to Coral Springs once to see some old friends, but they were no help because I really never belonged with them either. I used to say that I never knew where I belonged until I went into Straight. I felt in someway they gave me the only definition of me that made any sense. Now I am beginning to question the 14 year old theroy I have based my life on. But my question is......Do the issues (ie..lack of ability to function emotionally mature) I have in my life REALLY stem from being in Straight? Because I sit here still in support of most of what the place does. Don't be angry at me. Ya all's post were very helpful and I hope to hear from you again
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I remember all the talk from other Straightlings about how lonely and different they all felt before the program. You know the riot act, "all my old friends were mean and awful and none of them liked me" blah, blah, blah.
I understand now that, to some degree, that's a normal part of growing up. But I didn't really buy it coming from most of these kids. I was lonely and different! At school, I was teachers' pet and the punch line of every joke. I saw other kids laughing, playing, talking about the fun things they did on the weekend or over the summer. I knew the difference.
I don't know what emotionally normal really means. I'm different than I would have been if my life had been different, obviously. But I really can't complain. Them that know me know me well, all the rest can go to hell. My close friends are as weird and wonderful (or awful, depending on your point of view) as I am. I think that's an imutable law of nature. You just start from wherever you find yourself and go from there.
Your milage may vary.
The disrespect for the possession laws fosters a disrespect for laws and the system in general... On top of this is the distinct impression among the youth that some police may use the marihuana laws to arrest people they don't like for other reasons, whether it be their politics, their hair style or their ethnic background.
Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding
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You know that sucked so bad. Trying to get out for so damn long and then when I finally came back to NY I really did not fit in.
Straight changed me alright, not exactly what my parents had in mind but I was different.
I could not find any pleasure in anything from my old life it was as if someone had stripped it all away, everything seemed meaningless petty empty, I missed it so much and then I had it back and I still had nothing.
What a rip off.
I see why so many x-straighlings commited suicide there was no easy transition back into the "real world" life with Striaght was hell life without was strange.
Scoundrels are predictable, but you're a man of honor and that frightens me.
Robert Heinlein, Glory Road.
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On 2003-10-27 14:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
Now I am beginning to question the 14 year old theroy I have based my life on. But my question is......Do the issues (ie..lack of ability to function emotionally mature) I have in my life REALLY stem from being in Straight? Because I sit here still in support of most of what the place does.
Well from my experience and from being w/other straightlings and nonstraightlings I can say that WE all share the same charicteristics. I also remember thinking "well if they didn't do this" or "It wasn't realy that bad" "Maybe some people need that place" Then I realised that it was the thinking of "STRAIGHT"
No child and I repeat NO CHILD should ever have to go through 1% of what we endured and it is wrong to coerce or intimidate or refuse HUMAN DIGNITY in the name of anything!!! Wether it is SAFE STRAIGHT ELAN PARADISE OR ANY OTHER PLACE. It is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!
No matter the situation everyone is entitled to DUE PROCESS everyone is entitled to an EDUCATION. Everyone is entitled to DIGNITY. and any place that takes a young mind and TWISTS IT TO THEIR DOCTRIN is EVIL. Then to PROFIT off of it and to continue the ABUSE for MONEY./ Well forgive me but it is unforgiveable to support even a mineut portion of it. To say well they used to abuse kids but now their better???? GIVE ME A BREAK!! If it were any other situation ie DAY CARE, A HOSPITLE, The CHURCH, The BASTARDS would have been convicted and sitting their asses in jail.
Because it was done under the false pretenses of "THE WAR ON DRUGS" It has been ignored. I for one will not be ignored and I will not stand idely by and let them continue the ABUSE no matter how SMALL you might think it is. It is still life altering damage that could have been prevented had it not been for MEL and his CROONIES paying off the Gov. Putting the money from our parents into the pockets of the buearocratic [sp] cold hearted MONSTERS that KNEW the ABUSE was occuring and turned their back on us.
Just like the GERMANS that lived outside of AUSCHWITZ, While millions of JEWS were slaughtered and ABUSED. These monsters DID and ARE STILL DOING THE SAME THING. TURNING THEIR BACKS ON OUR CHILDREN. I say our because it is the responsibility of each and everyone of us to help those that can not help themselves.
God Bless and Protect you and our CHILDREN
Sammie
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Pepper, I read thru this entire thread again and find myself a bit disturbed by the whole thing. As an outsider looking in I can see how you lived a lie for so long,the lie that you were defined and found yourself in thought reform. It never happened and quite possibly this may be where you lost your way.
The problem, my friend, is you can never find yourself in a place where individuality is punished, where thought is coined "getting in your head" and deeply discouraged, and where you must adopt a group mentality. You will only find yourself doing what you are doing here...questioning yourself. It is a process and a life long one at that. Take the time to answer those questions critically but looking back at yourself with forgiveness and you will endure and prosper.
Take those months or years spent in thought reform off the shelf, look at what happened critically. forgive yourself and others and then put it away, and move forward from there. If you define yourself from that point, that very negative and hurtfull childhood experience when you were told you were worthless and only could receive love from the group, you lose. If you overcome, understand and learn from it, you win.
You can do it...
A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace.
James Madison, The Federalist No. 46
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From an outsider point of view, a bunch of kids with so-called drug problems are placed into a warehouse with chairs. where is the lincensed pHd doctorate and medical psychiatrists, psychologists, and couselors that prescribe a method of rehabilitation and care? Where are they to diagnose a drug addiction or abuse that is detrimental to my health? Are the SAFE and straight-like hired people a bunch of political zealots that are missing a soul and sanctity for the welfare of children? Please. These places don't seem to really help anyone.
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On 2003-10-29 22:40:00, smack wrote:
"From an outsider point of view, a bunch of kids with so-called drug problems are placed into a warehouse with chairs. where is the lincensed pHd doctorate and medical psychiatrists, psychologists, and couselors that prescribe a method of rehabilitation and care? Where are they to diagnose a drug addiction or abuse that is detrimental to my health? Are the SAFE and straight-like hired people a bunch of political zealots that are missing a soul and sanctity for the welfare of children? Please. These places don't seem to really help anyone. "
:wstupid: No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats---approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
--Lazlo's Chinese Relativity Axiom:
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and the stupid fucking place is still going. ANyone know how SAFE is doing? Hopefully, they are about to peter out. Any updates? Pepper......you out there?
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Of course its still open. As long as there are shitty parents with $$ and warehouses to be rented there will be a program.
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In fact...go find 4 random people and tell them about "The Program" and what goes and and they will look at you in disbelief.
Most people dont even believe its happening.
Just like they think all homeless people are homeless because they are lazy...
America fucking sucks.
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America fucking sucks.
"
You are correct sir!
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I have to disagree. Complacancy is not uniquely American. The Germans didn't believe in the existance of death camps, either. The marquee over Aushwitz said "Work shall make you free". And Americans, to a large degree, think the same thing, even though our prisons are one of our few domestic growth industries anymore.
But it's nearly uniquely American for a certain segment of the population to walk free, enjoying all the rights and priviledges of any American citizen while speaking, writing, demonstrating and investing themselves in countless other ways in dissent from those activities that we think our government really shouldn't be involved in (unless to protect us from those who are)
America's great. The Federal government's caught a bad case of socialism just lately. But America will come out the other end with the most important parts intact. I'm fairly certain of it.
Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734
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Uuum no America isnt "great".
Certainly you dont really believe that do you?
Book : "Everything's under control" Robert Anton Wilson
Read that for starters its very interesting.
America is no better than nazi germany. We torture prisoners just like they did.
The CIA tortures citizens...CIA murders people....CIA brought crack and Aids to us
Need I go on?
Our government is doing things like cooking up nasty viruses to unleash on targeted populations.
They did it to black people with the Tuskegee experiment.
If you believe america is this good and right and free entity you are a fool.
And dont give me any shit about "love it or leave it" If I had the means Id move..