Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 30, 2007, 03:37:22 AM
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Kids are losing their lives in private and state-funded institutions due to medical neglect, poor staff to child ratio, incompetence and docs who write RX's for powerful drugs to be given to children and young adolescents knowing damn well they can cause side effects like psychosis and constipation.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
A HIDDEN SHAME: DEATH IN GEORGIA'S MENTAL HOSPITALS
Sarah Crider was among 115 patients in the state's care who might have lived
January 7, 2007
By Alan Judd and Andy Miller
Alone in the darkness of a state mental hospital, Sarah Crider, 14, lay slowly dying.
She complained of stomach pain at 4:30 p.m. She vomited about 8:30. When the only physician on call at Georgia Regional Hospital/Atlanta came at 9:20, Sarah had vomited again, but the doctor did not examine her, medical records suggest. She threw up around midnight and once more about 2 a.m., this time a bloody substance that resembled coffee grounds. But hospital workers did not enter Sarah's room again until 6:15 a.m. By then, it was too late.
A few hours later, two hospital employees drove to Cobb County to tell Joyce Dobson, Sarah's grandmother. Dobson adored Sarah for all her complexities: artistic but troubled, challenging but comic. Now she could think only of two nights earlier, when she had last visited Sarah and heard another patient's haunting scream.
I hope nobody killed her, Dobson blurted out. In fact, what happened to Sarah was beyond anything Dobson could have imagined.
Sarah was one of at least 115 patients from Georgia's state psychiatric hospitals who have died under suspicious circumstances during the past five years, according to an investigation by The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. The newspaper assembled a list of questionable deaths by examining state and federal inspection reports, a database of vital records, autopsies, medical files, court papers, state insurance claims and other documents.
This study revealed a pattern of neglect, abuse and poor medical care in the seven state hospitals, as well as a lack of public accountability for patient deaths. The findings for 2002 through late 2006 -- from employees beating patients with aluminum pipes to doctors widely prescribing sedatives just to maintain order -- evoke images from the mid-20th century at the state hospital in Milledgeville. There, thousands of patients lived and died amid horrific conditions that became synonymous across the nation with mistreatment of people with mental illness.
Several experts in psychiatric care concur with the Journal-Constitution's findings. They include patient advocates, as well as a Connecticut physician who heads the American Psychiatric Association's patient safety committee and another psychiatrist who helps conduct inquiries into deaths at mental hospitals in Illinois. All say the investigation shows significant problems with care provided in the Georgia hospitals.
State officials generally do not dispute the newspaper's conclusions. But a statement released by the Georgia Department of Human Resources, which operates the hospitals, says 82 of the patients identified by the Journal-Constitution had underlying medical problems "that were appropriately treated."
In an additional 24 cases, the agency says, "we agree the hospital system should make improvements."
Officials say they have been working to improve mental health care by shifting resources and patients, especially those with developmental disabilities, to community-based services. "We have a whole system of care that we have to build and balance," says B.J. Walker, the state's human resources commissioner. The Georgia facilities, she says, compare favorably with those in other states on several key indicators, such as escapes, deaths of patients restrained by hospital workers, and medication errors.
"Our hospitals are overcrowded and overused," she says. But "we're not just throwing our hands up and hollering we can't do anything about it."
The Journal-Constitution documented 364 deaths of state hospital patients from January 2002 through mid-December 2006. Two-thirds apparently died of natural causes.
Among the 115 cases the newspaper determined to be suspicious, the greatest number of patients -- 36 -- died from choking on food, vomit or foreign objects, or by aspirating those substances into their lungs. A similar number died for lack of emergency treatment or from questionable medical care. Twelve committed suicide. At least two died under physical restraint by hospital workers.
The newspaper could find no information on 16 of the 115 deaths, except that state officials classified them as "unexplained/suspicious."
Experts say relatively simple measures could have prevented many deaths: More staff members to observe choking-prone patients during mealtime and to react to emerging medical problems. One-on-one monitoring of patients who threaten to kill themselves. More training in nonviolent methods to control unruly patients.
No independent agency routinely investigates or analyzes these deaths, the Journal-Constitution found. In New York and Illinois, any death in a state hospital triggers a review by an outside group. In Georgia, the agency that runs the state hospitals polices itself.
Dangerous conditions in the hospitals arise from decades of disregard by public officials, chronic overcrowding and understaffing, and public indifference, the newspaper found.
In 2000, state legislators created an ombudsman's office to investigate abuse and neglect -- but never appropriated money for the office and never filled the job. And the problems have become even more intractable. Since 2004, the state has cut the hospitals' budgets by 12 percent.
Meanwhile, officials project, the daily average number of adult mental health patients will have risen 12 percent by the end of this fiscal year. This is the combustible atmosphere that Sarah Elizabeth Crider, a seventh-grader from the suburbs, encountered in the fall of 2005 when she entered Georgia Regional.
The way a girl with no history of serious physical illness died more than three months later illustrates not just the breakdown of care in her case, but also a systemic failure that has escaped scrutiny for decades.
"She was a healthy 14-year-old -- healthy," says Dobson, Sarah's maternal grandmother and guardian, whose family has hired an attorney to pursue a claim against the state. "She had never been sick in her life.
"Why wasn't something done for this child?"
A girl's life unravels She loved cartoons. Given the choice, she would have eaten ice cream with every meal. She gardened with her grandmother, but teased about the results.
Meemaw, Sarah Crider would tell Dobson in the yard, why don't you just admit it -- everything you touch dies anyway.
Sometimes, though, Sarah's disposition darkened.
One day in February 2003, she claimed to be seeing large spots on a wall that had no spots. Her family took her to an emergency room, where a doctor at first suspected meningitis. A spinal tap ruled out that diagnosis. But Sarah's hallucinations worried the doctor, who thought she might hurt herself. He sent her to the nearest state psychiatric hospital: Georgia Regional.
The 38-year-old facility sprawls across 174 acres in south DeKalb County, near the I-285 interchange with Flat Shoals Road. It resembles a small college campus, with low-slung buildings clustered amid grassy fields. Sarah entered a unit for children and teenagers, segregated from adults with mental illness and retardation.
She was 11 years old.
Doctors treated her for autism, for which she had been previously diagnosed.
After two weeks, she returned to Dobson's house in Acworth acting as if nothing had happened and quickly resumed her regular life: Girl Scouts, youth groups at church, special education classes at school.
In November 2004, her sixth-grade class from Lost Mountain Middle School planned to attend a Disney on Ice performance at Philips Arena in downtown Atlanta. Sarah, by then 13, often had trouble getting out of bed on school days. But she awoke early the morning of the field trip, she was so excited.
At school, as her classmates boarded a bus, Sarah went back inside to retrieve her coat. The bus was on I-75, well on its way downtown, before anyone noticed Sarah's absence. Missing the trip devastated Sarah. In a fit of anger, she shredded an antique book belonging to Dobson. The outburst was a preview of what would become routine behavior -- "acting up," as family members describe it.
Sarah lived with her grandmother, as did her younger brother, Wesley, and her mother, Leslie Dobson. Sarah's parents no longer lived together, and several relatives had helped care for her. Now, no one could control her. So on Nov. 19, 2004, her family reluctantly admitted her to Ridgeview Institute, a private psychiatric hospital in Smyrna.
There, Sarah received a new diagnosis: schizophrenia.
The brain disorder, which can cause hallucinations and delusions, among other symptoms, affects about 1 percent of the population, according to the National Institute of Mental Health. In children, the institute says, the disease often is misdiagnosed as autism.
Sarah improved at Ridge-view, her family says, becoming less anxious, less frenzied. But the economics of psychiatric health care quickly intervened. Her mother's medical insurance policy, which covered Sarah, paid for not quite a month of inpatient psychiatric care. So Sarah became one of many mentally ill Georgians who, facing similar insurance restrictions, or lacking coverage altogether, have only one real option: a state hospital.
Sarah spent two weeks at Georgia Regional in February and March 2005, shortly after leaving Ridgeview. Back at her grandmother's house, she continued having severe, disruptive tantrums despite being heavily medicated. By the fall, Sarah's family realized they needed help again. On Oct. 24, 2005, Sarah returned to Georgia Regional.
She was the sole resident of Room 1123 on the adolescent unit. The only door had a long, narrow window that had been covered. The only furnishings were a bed and a wooden desk with the drawers removed. A slim window on the outside wall offered her a view of a trailer on the hospital grounds.
Over the next three months, Sarah's condition, as well as her behavior, deteriorated. She "frequently experienced hallucinations, talked or mumbled to herself, and was combative and uncooperative with directions and schoolwork," a state report says. She rarely spoke, according to another report, and when she did, she seemed fixated on such topics as getting pregnant and the singer Britney Spears.
Doctors prescribed an assortment of medications: Ativan to reduce anxiety. Benadryl for sedation. Geodon, Risperdal and Seroquel to treat schizophrenia and psychosis. Thorazine to control hallucinations. Cogentin to counteract the Thorazine's side effects.
Many of the drugs shared a common risk: constipation.
Sarah had entered the hospital with an elevated white blood cell count, a sign that she was fighting an infection. But medical records indicate no doctor at Georgia Regional ordered additional blood tests right away. They concentrated instead on Sarah's mental illness.
At Christmas, two months later, Sarah left for 13 days to visit her family. Her homecoming was far from joyful.
She barely spoke to anyone. She frightened her younger cousins with a fixed stare. Her family couldn't leave her alone, for fear that she would run away.
"She was sedated," Joyce Dobson says, "like a zombie."
Sarah's demeanor so upset Dobson that she began looking into an alternative treatment program in Florida. She hoped to send Sarah there in the spring.
When Sarah returned to Georgia Regional after Christmas, the hospital staff was supposed to take blood to test for anemia and infection. Sarah refused, and no one at the hospital ever asked Dobson for permission to take blood by force. So the tests were not done.
Most Sundays, Dobson and Sarah's other grandmother, Bobbie Crider, visited her together. The second weekend in February, they went on Saturday night instead.
Sarah met them in a waiting room -- the hospital does not allow visitors on the wards -- dressed in a white hospital gown, rather than the jeans and shirts she had worn during earlier visits. Her shoulder-length brown hair needed washing. She had put on weight during her hospital stay, about 30 pounds, up to 156, possibly a side effect of her anti-psychotic medications.
She was withdrawn and seemed ill.
"She didn't talk much," Bobbie Crider recalls. "I thought she couldn't understand us well."
Dobson noticed that Sarah's ears were bright red; usually that meant she had a fever. Dobson also wondered about a red streak across Sarah's forehead and about the girl's swollen feet. She told a member of the medical staff that her granddaughter needed attention.
Just before she left, Dobson heard a loud, prolonged scream from behind the locked door to Sarah's unit. A hospital employee explained that a patient was being restrained.
I just hate to send her back into that kind of environment, Dobson told Bobbie Crider. Sarah embraced Dobson one last time before returning to her room. It was a ritual between grandmother and granddaughter. Sarah had always called it a "squeezy hug."
Staff under pressure
The next night, Feb. 12, 2006, Sarah Crider was one of 22 patients in Georgia Regional's adolescent unit. Boys slept on one hall, girls on the other. A nursing station that connected them served as a base for the staff working the overnight shift: one nurse and four technicians.
"There was chaos on the unit," a nurse who went off-duty at 11:30 p.m. would later tell an investigator.
The nurse in charge overnight had responsibilities both on the adolescent unit and elsewhere in the hospital. He had to administer medications to patients and fill out paperwork. He had to respond to emergencies on other units in other buildings and process the admission of new patients. He had to assign staff members to cover patients' needs.
The nurse sent two male technicians to the boys' hall; one supervised a patient who required individual monitoring, while the other cared for the remaining eight boys. As the shift began, the nurse assigned another male technician to the girls' hall to work with a female colleague. She would later say she wasn't able to look in on all 13 girls on the unit because, with so many patients, "I wouldn't have time to do anything else."
High patient-to-staff ratios are hardly unusual at the state hospitals. The occupancy rate in adult mental health units averaged 109 percent last fiscal year, well above the national standard of 85 percent. Staff turnover is heavy, made worse by pay for many technicians of less than $20,000 a year. Nurse and technician jobs go unfilled for weeks or months at a time. Consequently, the hospitals often call on employees to perform heroically under virtual combat conditions.
And when employees are overworked, distracted or disengaged, patients may suffer.
At East Central Regional Hospital in Augusta in 2002, patient Larry Mansfield asked a technician to help him buy corn chips from a vending machine. Like many patients in the state hospitals, Mansfield, 53, had a history of choking, was restricted to a diet of ground food, and needed supervision while eating. The technician got Mansfield the chips anyway, then left to help subdue another patient. Alone with the chips, Mansfield choked to death.
By comparison, Sarah Crider's stomachache apparently didn't seem like much of an emergency, at first, on a hectic Sunday night at Georgia Regional.
Hours of distress
One physician was on duty for the entire hospital that night: Dr. Ginari Gibb, a 32-year-old medical resident in psychiatry. Unlike most other residents, who work at Georgia Regional under an attending physician through arrangements with medical schools, Gibb was a free agent, according to state personnel records, hired for a 12-hour overnight shift at $60 an hour.
After Sarah vomited about 8:30 p.m., the nurse then on the adolescent unit paged the doctor. Gibb arrived about 9:20, and wrote in Sarah's chart that she was "found lying in bed in vomitus" and "complained of stomach cramps over several hours." Medical records don't indicate whether Sarah was able to describe the extent of her pain. Regardless, Gibb noted, Sarah appeared to be in no distress.
But Sarah's medical records contain no indication that Gibb actually examined her. The doctor did not document whether she listened for bowel sounds with a stethoscope, or checked whether the abdomen and bowel area were firm, or felt for masses.
Gibb ordered a suppository for Sarah's nausea and a Tylenol for her headache. Then she went back to work elsewhere in the hospital.
No one summoned Gibb when Sarah vomited at least two more times between midnight and 2 a.m. The overnight nurse had been occupied with other duties since 12:35, then returned at 2 to document that Sarah was lying in "extra large amounts" of vomit. A technician would later tell investigators it resembled coffee grounds, a sign of a medical emergency: She was vomiting partly digested blood.
For the next several hours, though, hospital employees showed no urgency in their assessments of Sarah's condition.
3:15 a.m.: Sarah was "in bed and awake." 4:15 a.m.: Sarah's breathing was "even and unlabored." 5:30 a.m.: "No complications noted."
In fact, the employees had no idea how she was doing.
As the male technician working the girls' hall later would explain to state investigators: "We're not supposed to go into the female rooms at night. We just stand at the door and make sure that they're in the room."
When he looked in on Sarah, the overhead light was off and she was facing away from the door, the technician said. She was quiet, he said, but he "couldn't necessarily tell if she was breathing." At 6:15, a nurse entered Room 1123 and found Sarah, unconscious, without a pulse, still lying in vomit. The staff declared a "code," a hospital term for medical emergency.
A nurse who raced to Sarah's room from another unit noted that her abdomen was enlarged, rounded and firm to the touch, and that a thick brown substance was coming out of her mouth. Her skin was so discolored that staff members who hadn't seen Sarah before assumed she was black. Another nurse placed a defibrillator to Sarah's chest, hoping to restart her heart.
"Where [is] the medical doctor?" the nurse asked, according to notes later inserted in Sarah's medical chart.
Gibb, still the only physician on duty, arrived at Sarah's room a few minutes later, records show. She stood in the doorway, other hospital workers would later report, and watched as they tried to resuscitate Sarah.
In the medical chart, though, Gibb would note that Sarah was "cold, blue and without a pulse" when she arrived. "Rigor mortis had already set in."
Gibb added, "The patient was unable to be revived, and expired."
An avoidable death
Joyce Dobson at first assumed another patient had assaulted her granddaughter. But she says Georgia Regional employees assured her that Sarah died peacefully, in her sleep.
Sarah's autopsy provided a far more horrific account.
The medical examiner found Sarah had developed a severe intestinal blockage that caused her colon to stretch almost to the point of bursting. Her lungs had filled with vomit. And she had developed bacterial sepsis, an infection of the bloodstream.
The day after Sarah died, the state opened two investigations -- both by the Department of Human Resources, the same agency that runs the hospitals.
One inquiry began in response to an anonymous complaint about Sarah's treatment. The other resulted from a 2005 policy requiring agency employees to look into the death of every state hospital patient.
In many instances, employees of the hospital where a death has occurred investigate their colleagues' actions -- and, records show, rarely find fault.
In one case, hospital officials assigned a death investigation to a music therapist on their staff. At another hospital, a patient advocate with no professional license in any medical field conducted numerous inquiries. His report from a 2005 investigation was typical: 58-year-old Henry Jenkins "was loved and admired by all who knew him," the advocate concluded. "Someone said to me, 'Everyone liked Henry.' We can all hope to be remembered in that way."
Physicians and other medical professionals often critique the handling of death cases by conducting peer review. But the state refuses to release records of those reviews, even to the families of deceased patients.
Gwen Skinner, who heads the mental health division of the Department of Human Resources, describes the investigations as "strong, thorough." Walker, the human resources commissioner, says the department "takes whatever action is required."
In Sarah's case, investigators from the department's regulatory section struck a critical tone.
They found she had become lethally constipated partly because of her medications, some of which were known to cause severe constipation in many patients. The problem, they discovered, was exacerbated by dosages that sometimes exceeded the amounts prescribed. They also documented that hospital employees did not record Sarah's consumption of food and liquids or her bowel movements.
Furthermore, investigators said, Sarah's impacted bowels developed over time and could have been detected by more careful observation.
Georgia Regional "failed to adequately monitor and assess the patient," the investigators wrote. "Medical professionals are left with the responsibility to develop systems to collect information related to the patient's wellness, to recognize symptoms related to impaired health, and to obtain and provide prompt and appropriate treatment."
Sarah's condition should have been recognized as a medical emergency requiring immediate surgery, says Dr. Kris Sperry, Georgia's chief medical examiner. "People should not die of obstructed intestines."
Skinner agrees that Sarah's death was avoidable.
"Our take on it was the situation with the child was not something that occurred on one night or one shift," Skinner says. "I would say that anytime you have a child die, the system has failed." The state fired Dr. Ramesh Amin, Sarah's primary psychiatrist for much of her hospitalization, citing "negligence and inefficiency." Amin, who has contested his firing, declined to comment for this article. His attorney, Sandra Michaels, says Amin should not be "singled out" for blame. "It was a tragedy that had nothing to do with his abilities as a doctor."
For other hospital employees, the consequences of Sarah's death appear to have been minimal. Ginari Gibb, the doctor on duty the night Sarah died, continues to practice at Georgia Regional. Gibb, who did not respond to requests for an interview, received no punishment from hospital officials, just a letter from the facility's clinical director outlining her mistakes.
The letter's purpose, the clinical director wrote, was for "coaching and counseling."
The final indignity
Sarah's funeral was Thursday, Feb. 16. Her special education classmates brought red heart-shaped balloons to a Marietta cemetery on a warm winter afternoon. One child read aloud, "Sarah, you're my best friend, and I'm going to miss you."
About a month later, Joyce Dobson called Georgia Regional to ask for Sarah's clothes. "They said, well, if they could find them," she recalls. She eventually received Sarah's gown and robe, both stained by what appeared to be vomit or blood.
Dobson was furious. Sarah was meticulous about her clothes, sometimes changing three or four times a day. Dobson knew her granddaughter never would have chosen to stay in soiled clothing. She saw this as one last indignity, one last symbol of neglect surrounding Sarah's death.
"I was angry because I felt like it could have been prevented," Dobson says.
"It just seemed like such carelessness."
Cassandra Dawn Casey
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I'm amazed there hasn't been lynch mobs or riots over this shit.
Then again I underestimate the power of apathy.
Just... wow.
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They found she had become lethally constipated partly because of her medications, some of which were known to cause severe constipation in many patients. The problem, they discovered, was exacerbated by dosages that sometimes exceeded the amounts prescribed. They also documented that hospital employees did not record Sarah's consumption of food and liquids or her bowel movements.
This poor girl suffered horribly and no one is held accountable except the psychiatrist, who lost his job. BFD.
I hope parents who are drugging their kids take into consideration the need to monitor their child for side effects. Recording bowel movements is absolutely essential. I know of kids in programs who couldn't have a bowel movement for days, even weeks, due to poor diet and stress (no privacy) mainly, not psychotropic drugs.
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I know of kids in programs who couldn't have a bowel movement for days, even weeks, due to poor diet and stress (no privacy) mainly, not psychotropic drugs.
No shit. I didn't crap for the first two weeks I was in the program.
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A child dies of "lethal constipation" in a state hospital. How's that for the ultimate act of abuse and criminal negligence?
This reminds me of the case involving the boy who died of a bowel infarction at a private program in Utah.
I am beginning to think that the drugs given to these children are playing a major role in these tragedies.
:flame:
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Lemme guess they are all regulated facilities?
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A child dies of "lethal constipation" in a state hospital. How's that for the ultimate act of abuse and criminal negligence?
This reminds me of the case involving the boy who died of a bowel infarction at a private program in Utah.
I am beginning to think that the drugs given to these children are playing a major role in these tragedies.
:flame:
STOP right there. Drugs are not killing these kids. People are.
Parents and doctors monitor kids who are on meds for side effects. All drugs have side effects. Kids on these meds are supposed to be regularly monitored for these kinds of side effects. Don't be too quick to let negligent PEOPLE off the hook for not providing kids with access to medical care, or not monitoring them properly for the medications they are prescribing and administering. Some of these medications are life saving for these kids.
And yes, parents who authorize these meds need to be very dligent in watching for signs of side effects and teaching their kids to do the same.
But don't you dare disrespect these kids who have DIED at the hands of the ADULTS paid to take care of them, despite any phsycial or emotional issues they have, or any medications they are on. In almost every case of medical neglect, either the kids has BEGGED for help, or had symptoms so severe they couldn't talk, or the symptoms were so obvious that a 5 year old would have called 911. Neither the girl in this article nor my son deserved the painful and miserable deaths that were both ruled PREVENTABLE.
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If you study the drugs mentioned, it is shocking they are given to children as young as 12-14 years old. Personally, I am discovering many of these children are being institutionalized for behavioral problems caused by the drugs they are forced to take to control their behavior. It's downright frightening that parents put that much faith in psychiatrists, pediatricians, general practioners, etc. who are pushing these powerful psychotropics and often times, off label.
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Stupid people who throw pills around like snake oil in a snake oil convention at captive children are killing them.
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Doctors prescribed an assortment of medications: Ativan to reduce anxiety. Benadryl for sedation. Geodon, Risperdal and Seroquel to treat schizophrenia and psychosis. Thorazine to control hallucinations. Cogentin to counteract the Thorazine's side effects.
Many of the drugs shared a common risk: constipation.
14 years old, people. This is criminal IMO.
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They found she had become lethally constipated partly because of her medications, some of which were known to cause severe constipation in many patients. The problem, they discovered, was exacerbated by dosages that sometimes exceeded the amounts prescribed. They also documented that hospital employees did not record Sarah's consumption of food and liquids or her bowel movements.
Furthermore, investigators said, Sarah's impacted bowels developed over time and could have been detected by more careful observation.
Georgia Regional "failed to adequately monitor and assess the patient," the investigators wrote. "Medical professionals are left with the responsibility to develop systems to collect information related to the patient's wellness, to recognize symptoms related to impaired health, and to obtain and provide prompt and appropriate treatment."
Sarah's condition should have been recognized as a medical emergency requiring immediate surgery, says Dr. Kris Sperry, Georgia's chief medical examiner. "People should not die of obstructed intestines."
There you have it - sounds to me like the drugs caused the constipation which could and should have been treated properly by the staff to prevent the ultimate cause of death which was "obstructed intestines".
The legal guardian of this child should be thinking wrongful death lawsuit.
All other parents whose children are being medicated with drugs that can cause death if not properly monitored, should think twice about institutionalizing their children because of the issues raised in this article about quality control, proper staff training, etc, none of which are going to go away anytime soon, if ever.
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It is undisputed that actual physical, medical problems are routinely misdiagnosed as ADHD, ADD, and other “behavioral disordersâ€
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Psychotropic drug use in foster care.
Red Item Report
State of Florida. Florida Statewide Advocacy Council.
2003
Distributed by: Florida Statewide Advocacy Council
4030 Esplanade Way Room 315-M
Tallahassee, FL 32399
Tel: (850) 488-6173
Available from: http://www.floridasac.org/ (http://www.floridasac.org/)
This report highlights the findings of a study conducted by the Florida Statewide Advisory Council about the utilization of psychotropic medicines among foster children.
A review of case files for 1,180 children living in therapeutic foster care revealed that more than half were taking at least one psychotropic medicine. The children taking psychotropic medicines were an average of 12.7 years old and had been in care for approximately 11.5 months. Children not using psychotropic medicines were an average of 7.5 years old and had been in care about 5.5 months.
Forty-four percent of the children taking psychotropic medicine had no record of a medical evaluation and many did not have an identified psychiatric diagnosis.
Proper consent forms were obtained for less than half of the children using psychotropic medicine. Thirty-eight percent of the case files had no documentation of consent and 15 percent had forms signed by an
unauthorized person. Very few of the children were monitored for side effects of the drugs.
The Statewide Advisory Council recommends that the state initiate a quality assurance program to oversee the appropriateness of prescriptions for children after alternative interventions have
been used. The state also should ensure that informed consent is obtained in writing with a review of benefits, risk, and other treatments.
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Foster children are being drugged into compliance on a routine basis with no one monitoring the dangerous side effects of the drugs they are being made to take.
Kids in private programs that cost parents (or the state under the IDEA act) as much as an Ivy League education, are also falling through the cracks.
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*gasp* you mean kids with obstructed bowels who are in pain behave badly, and improve when they're not in pain?
OH SHIT STOP THE PRESSES
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*gasp* you mean kids with obstructed bowels who are in pain behave badly, and improve when they're not in pain?
OH SHIT STOP THE PRESSES
Glad you're having so much fun Niles. Sarah, the girl in the article, and my son aren't having fun any more. They're both DEAD, and I think you are a total ass for having fun at their expense. They both had bonafide psychiatric disorders, their behavior wasn't caused by their bowels or their medication.
Get a life.
PB Mom
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My point, were you not so damned defensive....
...is that we're lacking common sense in this day and age. We don't need a huge study with PhD's and millions of dollars to realize if someone is in pain they're not going to be very pleasant to deal with, and that in neglecting our children and then punishing them for acting out we're only treating the symptoms of the problem, being ourselves.
I am not having fun at their expense... if its at anyone's expense its that of the quack fucks who let both of them die.
You're new here. I'm not. Look at my post count. I've been here since 03. I'm only 22 and Ive done more than I could tell you without spending a lot of time to put an end to this... you only came here after your child died when the system took you for a ride and he paid with his life.
Keep that in mind.
I'm here for those dead kids, the living but abused kids, and I'm here to keep anyone else from dying, and anyone else from being abused, not to make fun of dead children. I suggest you learn to read sarcasm and read into what I'm getting at before snapping, and for that matter registering an account so you can edit your mistakes!
At any rate, you should cool off. I'm the last person who would make fun of a dead child, especially one who died in such a horrible way.
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The issue is not medication IMO - it's about totally ignoring medical emergencies which, left untreated - result in death. I don't think anyone is disputing this fact - This is about negligent homicide. End of story. No one should have die this way. PB mom, I'm sorry for your loss.
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My point, were you not so damned defensive....
...is that we're lacking common sense in this day and age. We don't need a huge study with PhD's and millions of dollars to realize if someone is in pain they're not going to be very pleasant to deal with, and that in neglecting our children and then punishing them for acting out we're only treating the symptoms of the problem, being ourselves.
I am not having fun at their expense... if its at anyone's expense its that of the quack fucks who let both of them die.
You're new here. I'm not. Look at my post count. I've been here since 03. I'm only 22 and Ive done more than I could tell you without spending a lot of time to put an end to this... you only came here after your child died when the system took you for a ride and he paid with his life.
Keep that in mind.
I'm here for those dead kids, the living but abused kids, and I'm here to keep anyone else from dying, and anyone else from being abused, not to make fun of dead children. I suggest you learn to read sarcasm and read into what I'm getting at before snapping, and for that matter registering an account so you can edit your mistakes!
At any rate, you should cool off. I'm the last person who would make fun of a dead child, especially one who died in such a horrible way.
*gasp* you mean kids with obstructed bowels who are in pain behave badly, and improve when they're not in pain?
OH SHIT STOP THE PRESSES
Stupid people who throw pills around like snake oil in a snake oil convention at captive children are killing them.
I don't need to edit my post, and this doesn't seem like constructive sarcasm. These kids we are specifically talking about were not having behavior problems because of pain, their behavior issues surfaced well before the medical problems that came up later. Dealing with a child with a mental illness is heartbreaking. And then to have jokesters like you dishonoring them just leaves me speechless....
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I feel ya, pitbull mom. Never mind the bollocks.
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If they weren't forced to take meds that made them constipated, they wouldn't have died of constipation!
I am not "dishonoring" anyone, you're being defensive and whiny!
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Bottom line is this girl died from complications that arose as a direct result of not being properly monitored for the MULTITUDE of drugs she was being forced to take.
I do not agree the girl was properly diagnosed given her history of medication and the known behavioral, physical, mental and emotional side effects.
I do not believe this girl should have been institutionalized for behavior that was most likely exacerbated by the drugs she was forced to take but this is very common.
I do belive she was let down by a lot of people.
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The issue is most certainly medication. In this case, the child was overly medicated and under-monitored. She died as a direct result of a condition caused by the use of medication which was not monitored properly. Constipation left untreated can lead to life-threatening consequences. The warning is on the label. I hope program parents are paying attention. This is not happening in a vacuum.
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I think the Pharma industry will have much to answer for in the next decade when the truth comes out about the use of these drugs on young minds. This was a social experiment that has benefited the drug companies at the expense of children who were used like guinea pigs.
Where is the outrage?
No child left UNMEDICATED.
We are a toxic, sick society. Just say NO has become Just Say Yes.
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Bottom line is this girl died from complications that arose as a direct result of not being properly monitored for the MULTITUDE of drugs she was being forced to take.
I do not agree the girl was properly diagnosed given her history of medication and the known behavioral, physical, mental and emotional side effects.
I do not believe this girl should have been institutionalized for behavior that was most likely exacerbated by the drugs she was forced to take but this is very common.
I do belive she was let down by a lot of people.
So in short you are saying, "It takes a whole village to kill a kid."
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I think the Pharma industry will have much to answer for in the next decade when the truth comes out about the use of these drugs on young minds. This was a social experiment that has benefited the drug companies at the expense of children who were used like guinea pigs.
Where is the outrage?
No child left UNMEDICATED.
We are a toxic, sick society. Just say NO has become Just Say Yes.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=291596#291596 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=291596#291596)
SUPPORT S. 891, THE CHILD MEDICATION SAFETY ACT
PREVENT SCHOOLS FROM COMPELLING PARENTS TO DRUG THEIR CHILDREN
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If they weren't forced to take meds that made them constipated, they wouldn't have died of constipation!
I am not "dishonoring" anyone, you're being defensive and whiny!
You’re telling a woman whose kids died she’s being whiney?Youre bragging about how much you do for kids in programs, while this woman only got into it after her kid died?. You are some piece of work. Really, there are no words for slime like you.
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Like it or not, the fact is children are being forced to take drugs that can cause serious side effects - in this case - constipation. There are plenty of people who can and should be held accountable for failing to protect this child, not the least of which are the child's own family who may or may not have even been aware of the true risk these meds posed to this young girl's life. My impression is the family was at the end of their rope and understandably, believed the doctors and hospital staff were trained to deal with any situation or emergency. Who can blame them for feeling that way? I sure can't. This was a preventable death beginning with the prescription and forced administration of the very drugs that caused the constipation in the first place.
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Like it or not, the fact is children are being forced to take drugs that can cause serious side effects - in this case - constipation. There are plenty of people who can and should be held accountable for failing to protect this child, not the least of which are the child's own family who may or may not have even been aware of the true risk these meds posed to this young girl's life. My impression is the family was at the end of their rope and understandably, believed the doctors and hospital staff were trained to deal with any situation or emergency. Who can blame them for feeling that way? I sure can't. This was a preventable death beginning with the prescription and forced administration of the very drugs that caused the constipation in the first place.
I wouldn't consider dragging the family through the judical mud over this mind you but it ought to definitely serve as an object lesson for all parents.
DON'T trust the damn meds or take a doctor's word for it. You see this sort of crap time and time again. By now one would hope parents would be a bit more wary of this sort of thing.
Given time one hopes the word gets out a bit farther on these incidents. Sad that it takes a life to make a point.
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The average American lives in a bubble world of deferring to experts and generally not researching a god damned thing.
People can't change their wipers or headlights anymore for Christs sake.
We somehow need to publicize this! I'd think the right would be ALL over this... wanna see Hillarycareâ„¢?
THIS IS WHAT YOU GET TO LOOK FORWARD TO IF YOU DON'T STAND UP.
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Whaddya mean look forward to it you daft gobshite? It is happening right now!
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Gobshite... :rofl: ... :rofl: .. I laugh every time I read that..
It's British sounding, of course; where did you come across it?
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Like it or not, the fact is children are being forced to take drugs that can cause serious side effects - in this case - constipation. There are plenty of people who can and should be held accountable for failing to protect this child, not the least of which are the child's own family who may or may not have even been aware of the true risk these meds posed to this young girl's life. My impression is the family was at the end of their rope and understandably, believed the doctors and hospital staff were trained to deal with any situation or emergency. Who can blame them for feeling that way? I sure can't. This was a preventable death beginning with the prescription and forced administration of the very drugs that caused the constipation in the first place.
I wouldn't consider dragging the family through the judical mud over this mind you but it ought to definitely serve as an object lesson for all parents.
DON'T trust the damn meds or take a doctor's word for it. You see this sort of crap time and time again. By now one would hope parents would be a bit more wary of this sort of thing.
Given time one hopes the word gets out a bit farther on these incidents. Sad that it takes a life to make a point.
And you know for a fact that this girl was forcibly on these meds?
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Even kids at Three Springs had their med changes approved by their parents. So it is my belief that the meds were not administered in a forcible manner and that the parents had full knowledge of their daughter's med intake.
The object lesson here is did the parents think to ever question the doctor's suggestions?
They bloody well should of...
Froddy: Went scuba diving with a couple of limeys last week. They regaled me with tales of boozing, mongering, and other degeneracy in a delightful argot that for the most part left me unsure exactly what they were saying. Gobshite is one of the quaint litle britishisms I picked up.
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Hmmm, good point TSW - but therein lies the rub.
The child is the one who has to take the meds yet they lack the maturity to give an informed consent in the true meaning of the term. They must rely on the judgment of their parents who must rely on the opinion of the docs and their own due-diligence.
What concerns me is whether by law, parents are required to be educated about the side effects of the drugs they may authorize to be used on their child and receive further education on how to properly monitor their child when they are taking these drugs?
What happens when the child is in an out-of-home placement?
At what age can children be allowed to give their consent? What about Baker-Acted kids? This is really a gray area, IMO.
Certainly this family was desperate for help and had a right to believe this child was being properly cared for. For Christ's sake, she died in a hospital!!!
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I just re-read the article which was damn well written IMO, though we can't be sure of it's accuracy.
My question is this - is it just me or does anyone else think the DX of schzitophrenia (sp) might have been erroneous? Could the drugs she was taking have caused the behavior that led to this DX?
Dang, this case really really bothers me. I can NOT BELIEVE how this girl suffered. The part where the staff can't enter the room, just peer through the door to check on her, blows my mind. Is that SOP? Do programs do that too?
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The child is the one who has to take the meds yet they lack the maturity to give an informed consent in the true meaning of the term. They must rely on the judgment of their parents who must rely on the opinion of the docs and their own due-diligence.
Time out.
Most kids in programs are in their mid to later teens. Most mid to alter teens CAN do that, and are charged as adults if they take RECREATIONAL Drugs.
Society clearly thinks they CAN make such decisions. We don't charge 8 year olds for MJ or coke, do we?
We DO charge 15 year olds.
Why the double standard?
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At three springs a kid in isolation is checked on every 15 minutes, but that is just one programme. No doubt it varies from programme to programme. The hospital really needs to be held to task for gross medical neglect on this one. The patients should be monitored on a frequent basis no matter what their condition.
What level of involvement the parents had in this case on a day to day basis remains to be seen. I'm thinking that probably they were pretty involved and this was all one hell of a surprise.
Now as much as I believe parents need to be far more responsible for their kid's medical needs there is a fly in the glue of my premise.
What sources do most parents have avaliable to them? i sincerely believe that in order for parents to be more responsible they need the information right at their fingertips. When you google most meds you get a conflicting set of returns. So how is the average parent supposed to wade through this crap?
Any ideas on how to get some medical advice to double check your regular doctors reccomendations without getting bent over a barrel to pay for it?
Also.. most kids baker acted, at least in florida, are for a 72 hour observation period. Is that long enough to really start handing out meds?
Kind of scary if they are doing that if you ask me.
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Excellent point, Niles.
^^^^^
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Damn, I can't even pronounce the names of some of these drugs much less spell them. Anybody ever seen an informed consent form? I'd like to know just what the parent "consents" to and whether these forms are attached to a poop sheet detailing in layman terms the known side effects. Searching the Internet for info would certainly return a mixed bag of info and opinions. I agree there has to be a more efficient way to educate parents. These are life and death issues.
As for the hospital chain of command from top to bottom, I don't know how they can sleep at night. I'm sick of everybody passing the buck.
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I'm sick of everybody passing the buck.
Me as well.. Parents do your jobs please? mm k? thanks.
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My point, were you not so damned defensive....
...is that we're lacking common sense in this day and age. We don't need a huge study with PhD's and millions of dollars to realize if someone is in pain they're not going to be very pleasant to deal with, and that in neglecting our children and then punishing them for acting out we're only treating the symptoms of the problem, being ourselves.
I am not having fun at their expense... if its at anyone's expense its that of the quack fucks who let both of them die.
You're new here. I'm not. Look at my post count. I've been here since 03. I'm only 22 and Ive done more than I could tell you without spending a lot of time to put an end to this... you only came here after your child died when the system took you for a ride and he paid with his life.
Keep that in mind.
I'm here for those dead kids, the living but abused kids, and I'm here to keep anyone else from dying, and anyone else from being abused, not to make fun of dead children. I suggest you learn to read sarcasm and read into what I'm getting at before snapping, and for that matter registering an account so you can edit your mistakes!
At any rate, you should cool off. I'm the last person who would make fun of a dead child, especially one who died in such a horrible way.
Well, you had quite a lot of fun at my expense when my son died. Let's see..you're 22, never been a parent, don't know anything about mental illness, and you've reportedly never been in a program, and you've been posting on fornits since 2003. Oh yeah, THAT makes you well qualified. I've been a mom for over 15 years, dealt with the mental illness of one of my kids since 1997, raised another very well adjusted child, read countless books on mental illness, pharmacology, and parenting, spent thousands of $$ on family counseling, paid taxes and voted for over 30 years, but I'm just a stupid moron who murdered my kid, didn't love him enough, and should be shot for my sins. I don't see you doing much of anything but making fun of people. How, exactly, are you "here" for my dead son?
PB Mom
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If you're PB Mom, please sign in. We have plenty of troll imposters. Thanks.
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Even kids at Three Springs had their med changes approved by their parents. So it is my belief that the meds were not administered in a forcible manner and that the parents had full knowledge of their daughter's med intake.
The object lesson here is did the parents think to ever question the doctor's suggestions?
They bloody well should of...
Froddy: Went scuba diving with a couple of limeys last week. They regaled me with tales of boozing, mongering, and other degeneracy in a delightful argot that for the most part left me unsure exactly what they were saying. Gobshite is one of the quaint litle britishisms I picked up.
I can't speak for other parents, but I questioned every drug I ever authorized my son to take. All medication changes were discussed between all of us, my son, his doc, and me. I didn't use quack docs, and they always explained fully the side effects and anything serious to watch for, monitored weight changes and labs for proper dosages, etc. Any parent who makes the difficult decision to put their child on mind altereing drugs had better be doing a lot of research on their own, and not just relying on what the doc says, or the prescription information that accompanies every RX by law. Many many medications being prescribed to kids have not been tested thoroughly on kids, so parents had better be paying attention, especially if they are not using a board certified child psychiatrist.
My son also googled meds he was on, and asked good questions. You can't force a 14 year old to take meds.
There are numerous good websites, other than the vendor's website where parents can get drug information, and also good drug interaction sites to check for interactions specific to all of the meds, vitamins and herbs being taken together, as well as any alcohol or self administered drugs kids might be taking.
But wait... I was a shitty mom, let me eat my gun now.
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If you're PB Mom, please sign in. We have plenty of troll imposters. Thanks.
that was me before, I was too busy trying not to eat my gun to log in. Seems everyone is posting as guest now, due to all the modifications to posts.
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PB Mom,
Every situation is different - there isn't one size fits all. While I certainly cannot speak for them, I think some posters get impassioned about the cause and make generalizations. People get hurt and caught in those generalizations. Or maybe it's as simple as not being able to see eye to eye.
To everyone -
The point being, let's not lose sight of the common ground about why we are here. To prevent more deaths and abuse of kids at these places.
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that was me before, I was too busy trying not to eat my gun to log in. Seems everyone is posting as guest now, due to all the modifications to posts.
All the modifications? You mean the alleged modification of assWho's and CCM twat's posts? Why should YOU worry about that, PB.. makes me wonder about you..
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Give PB mom a break - she actually seems to be helping - don't lump her in the 2 trolls.
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You can't force a 14 year old to take meds.
But you CAN force him into a place where his bowels will end up being blocked with solidified feces until he dies!
Coat the barrel with honey.
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If you're PB Mom, please sign in. We have plenty of troll imposters. Thanks.
that was me before, I was too busy trying not to eat my gun to log in. Seems everyone is posting as guest now, due to all the modifications to posts.
Have you figured out that fornits -- while seeming at first wants to help you, your family, and your cause -- will turn against you, attack you, and hamper your cause? It usually doesn't take parents that long.
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that was me before, I was too busy trying not to eat my gun to log in. Seems everyone is posting as guest now, due to all the modifications to posts.
All the modifications? You mean the alleged modification of assWho's and CCM twat's posts? Why should YOU worry about that, PB.. makes me wonder about you..
har har, Niles I assume this is you, there was a comment to me a few posts back, that I should "log in so I can edit my mistakes". but it's been edited out..... Allegedly.
there's nothing to wonder about me. Everyone knows exactly who I am, my real name, where I live. I have no reason to hide anything. My son's story is public knowledge. I say what I think, and I identify myself. and I don't edit my posts. (I may have once edited some spelling, so don't bother to throw THAT in my face.)
I have no agenda here other than hopefully preventing another parent from the nightmare I've been through, losing a cherished child to this industry. I have a lot of knowledge about how the mental health systems, school systems, medical and insurance communities, etc work. I have no answers, having lived through what I can only describe as 10 years of horror, but I can certainly share what I've learned, answer questions, clear up misinformation when I frequently run accross it, and do whatever I can to advocate for kids' rights. It's not a simple problem with a simple answer. Did I make some mistakes? Undoubtedly, but one of them was NOT being responsible for my son's untimely death. some asshole didn't call 911, that's what happened to my son, plain and simple. Shit happens, life deals you some bad curves, you deal with it the best you can, and seek the best advice you can find when you find yourself in over your head.
Now, excuse me while I go polish my gun.
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har har, Niles I assume this is you,
Wrong. thanks for playing.
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PB Mom,
Every situation is different - there isn't one size fits all. While I certainly cannot speak for them, I think some posters get impassioned about the cause and make generalizations. People get hurt and caught in those generalizations. Or maybe it's as simple as not being able to see eye to eye.
To everyone -
The point being, let's not lose sight of the common ground about why we are here. To prevent more deaths and abuse of kids at these places.
Exactly the 2 points I've been trying to make for quite some time.
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That statement is not true. Only a couple posters are here for that serious of reasons. The rest , like TheWho, are here to troll abuse victims, parents with deceased children, and any other emotionally suffering individual they can sink their claws into long enough to suck some entertainment from them. Fornits is a sick place for people to psychologically rapep each other, not a place for serious advocacy. Pitbull start a new forum and people will follow. You are a natural leader!
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You are a natural leader!
Pffftt....yeah, well at least that would get her off of here.
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If you're PB Mom, please sign in. We have plenty of troll imposters. Thanks.
that was me before, I was too busy trying not to eat my gun to log in. Seems everyone is posting as guest now, due to all the modifications to posts.
Have you figured out that fornits -- while seeming at first wants to help you, your family, and your cause -- will turn against you, attack you, and hamper your cause? It usually doesn't take parents that long.
Yes, I figured out a long time ago that fornits is a cult. I initally made the mistake of thinking you all were actually advocating for something good to come about.
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YOUTH CARE, not the boy's mother is 100% responsible for his death.
:flame:
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Yes, I figured out a long time ago that fornits is a cult. I initally made the mistake of thinking you all were actually advocating for something good to come about.
Well I I figured out a long time ago that PB Mom is a cunt. I initally made the mistake of thinking she was actually advocating for something good to come about. :rofl: :P
Stupid bitch....fuck off..
And FUCK YOU PUSSY ADMINS for caving to TheWho.
PUSSIES!!!!!!!
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I initally made the mistake of thinking you all were actually advocating for something good to come about.
Every poster here made that same mistake. Some get sucked in anyways, and begin to take out their anger and dissapointment on new posters, and the cycle continues. It's a self-supporting phenomenon at this point, that uses people's souls as it's fuel. Many have tried to change it for the better, all have failed. Start your own forum, because fornits will never be what you want it to be.
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Every poster here made that same mistake. Some get sucked in anyways, and begin to take out their anger and dissapointment on new posters, and the cycle continues. It's a self-supporting phenomenon at this point, that uses people's souls as it's fuel. Many have tried to change it for the better, all have failed. Start your own forum, because fornits will never be what you want it to be.
:roll: :roll: :cry2: :cry2: :cry2: ::ftard:: ::boohoo:: ::roflmao:: ::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::fuckoff::
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Froderik gets upset when you insult the one and only thing going on in his life. The truth hurts.
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Oh please, Fornits is a discussion board - not a parent support group or advocacy organization.
It's a damn good place to get information, breaking news and occasionally, engage in heated debates with bozos like The Who.
Fornits will be here long after the jackels, weenies and imposters run off with their tails between their legs.
Fornits is a SURVIVOR.
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[
quote="Guest"]That statement is not true. Only a couple posters are here for that serious of reasons. The rest , like TheWho, are here to troll abuse victims, parents with deceased children, and any other emotionally suffering individual they can sink their claws into long enough to suck some entertainment from them. Fornits is a sick place for people to psychologically rapep each other, not a place for serious advocacy. Pitbull start a new forum and people will follow. You are a natural leader!
[/quote]
IZZY, don't you have a little do-nothing coaching business to be running?
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Oh please, Fornits is a discussion board - not a parent support group or advocacy organization.
It's a damn good place to get information, breaking news and occasionally, engage in heated debates with bozos like The Who.
Fornits will be here long after the jackels, weenies and imposters run off with their tails between their legs.
Fornits is a SURVIVOR.
Well, I don't see all that many real survivors here, mostly trolls, and what I'm guessing are some disillusioned former program staff. I'm starting to doubt the value of fornits even as a discussion board, it seems more to be more of a cult-like "my way or the highway" forum, or "I'm entitled to my opionion, if you don't like it, then STFU".
This thread ended up, like so many others, starting out as a good discussion about a death in Jan of this year that should have been headline news, with many comments about medications that have some useful value, and accountability for providing a certain level of care, but it ends up with so called survivors slinging insults at parents who are trying to make a difference. For those who really want to get their message out there, and have the general public take them seriously, or maybe be a witness in a future hearing or investigation, you need to clean up your act a whole lot before you will be taken seriously.
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you need to clean up your act a whole lot before you will be taken seriously.
We've heard this so many times and it's always bullshit.
The brutality of Fornits has increased precipitously within the last couple of years. Alongside this increase has also come a substantial amount of positive action: The GAO hearings, the guilty verdicts of Randall Hinton and that Wellspring fuckhead, the 2005 closing of CEDU, and a single program owner recently bitching about fifty kids a month vanishing due to "negative internet publicity".
Assuming that the two have any correlation whatsoever, the logical thing for us to do is become nastier and less forgiving.
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Oh please, Fornits is a discussion board - not a parent support group or advocacy organization.
It's a damn good place to get information, breaking news and occasionally, engage in heated debates with bozos like The Who.
Fornits will be here long after the jackels, weenies and imposters run off with their tails between their legs.
Fornits is a SURVIVOR.
Well, I don't see all that many real survivors here, mostly trolls, and what I'm guessing are some disillusioned former program staff. I'm starting to doubt the value of fornits even as a discussion board, it seems more to be more of a cult-like "my way or the highway" forum, or "I'm entitled to my opionion, if you don't like it, then STFU".
This thread ended up, like so many others, starting out as a good discussion about a death in Jan of this year that should have been headline news, with many comments about medications that have some useful value, and accountability for providing a certain level of care, but it ends up with so called survivors slinging insults at parents who are trying to make a difference. For those who really want to get their message out there, and have the general public take them seriously, or maybe be a witness in a future hearing or investigation, you need to clean up your act a whole lot before you will be taken seriously.
Your lectures only encourage the trolls and will not change their ways.
Visit CAFETY.org
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you need to clean up your act a whole lot before you will be taken seriously.
We've heard this so many times and it's always bullshit.
The brutality of Fornits has increased precipitously within the last couple of years. Alongside this increase has also come a substantial amount of positive action: The GAO hearings, the guilty verdicts of Randall Hinton and that Wellspring fuckhead, the 2005 closing of CEDU, and a single program owner recently bitching about fifty kids a month vanishing due to "negative internet publicity".
Assuming that the two have any correlation whatsoever, the logical thing for us to do is become nastier and less forgiving.
What a pathetic and ridiculous statement to make. This is why nobody takes this forum seriously.
Visit CAFETY.org
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Visit CAFETY.org PLEASE!!! No one ever posts there anymore after we started sucking "Judge Roybean"'s dick too loudly and all the real advocates GTFO. PLEASE give us meaning and relevance again! We'll DO ANYTHING!
Fixed.
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You are only proving my point for me Guest. Pitbull Mom you are wasting your time posting on this forum, they will not listen to you.
They are probably collaborating behind the scenes on a way to publically humiliate you for not agreeing with their rhetoric, don't say you weren't warned.
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And your own site (http://http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=&func=latest&do=show&sel=168) proves my point. Don't let that doorknob split those ass cheeks, sunshine.
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Well, I don't see all that many real survivors here, mostly trolls, and what I'm guessing are some disillusioned former program staff. I'm starting to doubt the value of fornits even as a discussion board, it seems more to be more of a cult-like "my way or the highway" forum, or "I'm entitled to my opionion, if you don't like it, then STFU".
This thread ended up, like so many others, starting out as a good discussion about a death in Jan of this year that should have been headline news, with many comments about medications that have some useful value, and accountability for providing a certain level of care, but it ends up with so called survivors slinging insults at parents who are trying to make a difference. For those who really want to get their message out there, and have the general public take them seriously, or maybe be a witness in a future hearing or investigation, you need to clean up your act a whole lot before you will be taken seriously.
I can honestly say that much of the things said here is "Rampant Talking Out In Group."[/color] I hope that this may clear up a few things. Speaking for myself only.
While I was held prisoner at an abusive teen treatment center "Straight Inc" all the kids were forced to be humble or be humilated. When we thought something was bullshit we were not allowed to speak up about it due to fear of reprise. Over the years I have learned it's ok to call bullshit. And that's what I feel many of us feel we are doing. Is it wrong......No ..... Is it right..... No..... But that is what we do.
When it comes to defenders of programs who come in and spew their propaganda, ( We all know who I am referring to ) we retaliate as they stand for everything we do not. Sometimes people get caught in the crossfire. And it sometimes is hard to determine what side of the line people stand on. There are a few of us that there is no doubt about where we stand. ( Program Supporter or Program Terrorist ). We all must make the decision where we stand and who we stand with.
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Froderik gets upset when you insult the one and only thing going on in his life. The truth hurts.
Hello, pot.
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Even kids at Three Springs had their med changes approved by their parents. So it is my belief that the meds were not administered in a forcible manner and that the parents had full knowledge of their daughter's med intake.
The object lesson here is did the parents think to ever question the doctor's suggestions?
They bloody well should of...
Froddy: Went scuba diving with a couple of limeys last week. They regaled me with tales of boozing, mongering, and other degeneracy in a delightful argot that for the most part left me unsure exactly what they were saying. Gobshite is one of the quaint litle britishisms I picked up.
I can't speak for other parents, but I questioned every drug I ever authorized my son to take. All medication changes were discussed between all of us, my son, his doc, and me. I didn't use quack docs, and they always explained fully the side effects and anything serious to watch for, monitored weight changes and labs for proper dosages, etc. Any parent who makes the difficult decision to put their child on mind altereing drugs had better be doing a lot of research on their own, and not just relying on what the doc says, or the prescription information that accompanies every RX by law. Many many medications being prescribed to kids have not been tested thoroughly on kids, so parents had better be paying attention, especially if they are not using a board certified child psychiatrist.
My son also googled meds he was on, and asked good questions. You can't force a 14 year old to take meds.
There are numerous good websites, other than the vendor's website where parents can get drug information, and also good drug interaction sites to check for interactions specific to all of the meds, vitamins and herbs being taken together, as well as any alcohol or self administered drugs kids might be taking.
Can't argue with this post at all. Very good parenting on your part PB Mom. Perhaps given time you will come to realize that my disdain towards parents doesn't automatically extend to you.
But wait... I was a shitty mom, let me eat my gun now.
If I'm not mistaken manipulation via guilt is a tactic utilized by cults. Maybe you can set yourself up as the living leader of the Fornits Association of Parents cult?
I can think of a half a dozen secret ceremonies for you all ranging from the circle jerk to a bloody tampon eating contest.
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You are only proving my point for me Guest. Pitbull Mom you are wasting your time posting on this forum, they will not listen to you.
They are probably collaborating behind the scenes on a way to publically humiliate you for not agreeing with their rhetoric, don't say you weren't warned.
:cry2: :cry2: :cry2:
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I initally made the mistake of thinking you all were actually advocating for something good to come about.
Every poster here made that same mistake. Some get sucked in anyways, and begin to take out their anger and dissapointment on new posters, and the cycle continues. It's a self-supporting phenomenon at this point, that uses people's souls as it's fuel. Many have tried to change it for the better, all have failed. Start your own forum, because fornits will never be what you want it to be.
God, what a bunch of over-dramatized horseshit! "Uses people's souls as fuel"....puh-leeze! Cunt-bag!!! I wish there were still admins around to bust out whiny bitches like this poster.... pffft!!
*Sigh* Oh well... pussies! ::fu::
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"Uses people's souls as fuel"
I've tried this, but Ponzi schemes never work.
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I'm sorry to hear that.
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But wait... I was a shitty mom, let me eat my gun now.
If I'm not mistaken manipulation via guilt is a tactic utilized by cults. Maybe you can set yourself up as the living leader of the Fornits Association of Parents cult?
I can think of a half a dozen secret ceremonies for you all ranging from the circle jerk to a bloody tampon eating contest.
And then, there are people who can never be manipulated by guilt cause they have no conscious.
This lady's kid was murdered. I thought this was a bad thing? Are we genuinely upset when this happens, or do we just use these tragedies to solidify our self concept?. If we are genuinely saddened, we should extend sympathy towards a victim, who in this case, is a mother, and extend to her kindness, not tough love. Asking for someone not to hurt your half-dead soul isn’t being cultish, it's cultish to not be sensitive to that person’s soul.
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And then, there are people who can never be manipulated by guilt cause they have no conscious (sic).
This lady's kid was murdered. I thought this was a bad thing? Are we genuinely upset when this happens, or do we just use these tragedies to solidify our self concept?. If we are genuinely saddened, we should extend sympathy towards a victim, who in this case, is a mother, and extend to her kindness, not tough love. Asking for someone not to hurt your half-dead soul isn’t being cultish, it's cultish to not be sensitive to that person’s soul.
Shit happens.
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But wait... I was a shitty mom, let me eat my gun now.
If I'm not mistaken manipulation via guilt is a tactic utilized by cults. Maybe you can set yourself up as the living leader of the Fornits Association of Parents cult?
I can think of a half a dozen secret ceremonies for you all ranging from the circle jerk to a bloody tampon eating contest.
And then, there are people who can never be manipulated by guilt cause they have no conscious.
This lady's kid was murdered. I thought this was a bad thing? Are we genuinely upset when this happens, or do we just use these tragedies to solidify our self concept?. If we are genuinely saddened, we should extend sympathy towards a victim, who in this case, is a mother, and extend to her kindness, not tough love. Asking for someone not to hurt your half-dead soul isn’t being cultish, it's cultish to not be sensitive to that person’s soul.
PB Mom is not the victim.
Her son is.
Her son has my full sympathies in this tragic manner.
PB Mom does not.
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Che, i didn’t mean to imply you don’t have a conscience, but you need to think this out. PB mom is a victim along with her son. When you love someone and they are murdered, you are murdered too. You die
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Che, i didn’t mean to imply you don’t have a conscience, but you need to think this out. PB mom is a victim along with her son. When you love someone and they are murdered, you are murdered too. You die
bullshit.
I'd feel sorry for PB Mom if she wasn't constantly taking offense to everything said that doesn't fit her world view. I'd further have some patience with the woman if she repeatedly wasn't trying to play sympathy cards. Last, I'd even be able to tolerate her if she didn't repeatedly try to remind everyone they should be nice and considerate to her because her son died.
fuck that.
A piece of my soul dies every time I see that woman use her son's memory in such a manner. Any sympathy for PB Mom ran out for her, from me, the day she started coming across as a drama queenish attention whore.
PB Mom is looking in the wrong place if she wants sympathy, compassion, or anything else. Finding such things on the internet is absurd.
PB mom.. if you want anything you will only find it at home with your surviving children, family, and friends.
Take the case of Linda Ibbara to heart. The way you are going I see you locked in your car with one of your kids and both of you are dead before the next year is up.
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voice from nowhere+fornits=idiotic nimrod.
STFU
CCM girl's views are valid but PB mom's is not
get yer head outta your ass before you post.
TheWho meet voice from nowhere.
Voice from nowhere meet proud member of NAMBLA - I know you two will hit it off.
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FYI - someone has changed "guest" anon postings to "voice from nowhere" - just so that's clear - it might've been said somewhere else - but here it is.
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A piece of my soul dies every time I see that woman use her son's memory in such a manner. Any sympathy for PB Mom ran out for her, from me, the day she started coming across as a drama queenish attention whore.
:tup:
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bullshit.
I'd feel sorry for PB Mom if she wasn't constantly taking offense to everything said that doesn't fit her world view. I'd further have some patience with the woman if she repeatedly wasn't trying to play sympathy cards. Last, I'd even be able to tolerate her if she didn't repeatedly try to remind everyone they should be nice and considerate to her because her son died.
fuck that.
A piece of my soul dies every time I see that woman use her son's memory in such a manner. Any sympathy for PB Mom ran out for her, from me, the day she started coming across as a drama queenish attention whore.
PB Mom is looking in the wrong place if she wants sympathy, compassion, or anything else. Finding such things on the internet is absurd.
PB mom.. if you want anything you will only find it at home with your surviving children, family, and friends.
Take the case of Linda Ibbara to heart. The way you are going I see you locked in your car with one of your kids and both of you are dead before the next year is up.
I don't see anyone using her son's memory in an exploitative fashion.
You should assemble a post child murder victim’s loved ones etiquette card, so people this* close to suicide, who lives are, functionally, over forever, don't offend your hothouse flower sensitivities
After all, what’s important are your feelings in this matter.
And yes, you can get compassions on the internet. It’s not the internet that’s the problem it’s the monsters that use it.
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A piece of my soul dies every time I see that woman use her son's memory in such a manner. Any sympathy for PB Mom ran out for her, from me, the day she started coming across as a drama queenish attention whore.
"A piece of my soul dies" is not dramatic?
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Pitbull Mom does not appear to be a "drama queenish attention whore."
She has posted in very coherent, matter-of-fact, business-like manners about her dealings with the Utah Office of Licensing, the Utah Attorney Generals Office, the GAO agency, and the law enforcement agencies in Utah -- all in an effort to gain support, and public awareness about the death of her son at Aspen's facility Youth Care.
Pitbull Mom has defended herself, when viciously attacked - and that is her right.
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She does take SOME things as attacks that were not directed at HER...
Then again who don't I piss off? :rofl:
PBmom got fucked by the industry just like a lot of other people here, and her son died on top of that. She has every right to be pissed.
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Can we get back to the topic?
Two children are dead and both died horrible, painful, degrading, deaths.
Parents have a responsibility to monitor the care and treatment of their children when they place them in any kind of residential facility or hospital but let's be real, there is a limit to what parents can do.
There is far too much drugging of children going on, including the use of chemical restraints to sedate these children to make the staff's job easier.
It is a known fact these drugs can cause serious side-effects and constipation left untreated or undected can lead to life-threatening consequences.
Not sure what parents can do other than encourage other parents not to be so trusting and to look for other alternatives than institutionalization. It is deplorable that children as young as 7-12 are sent to out-of-state facilities IMO but kids at any age are vulnerable to abuse and neglect.
It does no good to bash the parents but by the same token, it does no good for the parents to pass the buck, either.
Accountability is a two way street.
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Can we get back to the topic?
Two children are dead and both died horrible, painful, degrading, deaths.
Parents have a responsibility to monitor the care and treatment of their children when they place them in any kind of residential facility or hospital but let's be real, there is a limit to what parents can do.
There is far too much drugging of children going on, including the use of chemical restraints to sedate these children to make the staff's job easier.
It is a known fact these drugs can cause serious side-effects and constipation left untreated or undected can lead to life-threatening consequences.
Not sure what parents can do other than encourage other parents not to be so trusting and to look for other alternatives than institutionalization. It is deplorable that children as young as 7-12 are sent to out-of-state facilities IMO but kids at any age are vulnerable to abuse and neglect.
It does no good to bash the parents but by the same token, it does no good for the parents to pass the buck, either.
Accountability is a two way street.
Sounds like YOU just solved the problem. End of topic?
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She does take SOME things as attacks that were not directed at HER...
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Bingo..
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Actually, I think that the only drama whores here are the fornits regulars that get their entertainment from others' pain...I don't see where this fits PB Mom at all. She is not the one starting any flaming insults, but she does correct you assholes when you get out of line.....
PB Mom is a victim and a survivor. She was victimized by this fucked up industry, victimized by the program that promised to keep her kid safe, victimized by the system that is supposed to properly license and monitor faciities. Just because you can't get her to be a victim of your useless and endless entertainment doesn't make her a drama whore.
drama whore - A person, male or female; who sees any aspect of their personality or actions in their life as interesting topics. Often the drama whore will send out messages with absolutely no content except for something inflammatory or retaliatory directed at another person(s) they dislike.
Drama whore-ism is a self feeding condition. As more and more people are fed up with a constant barrage of useless shit they don't care anything about, the drama whore feels justified by the new attention of being told off. In some cases, the drama whores will band together into a circle jerk, telling each other they're all right and the other 6 billion people on earth are just jealous.
"I made this thread for everyone to insult me in one place."
"Actually it was person that started it all"
"Does anyone know person in place?"
"I think I've proven my point"
"I'm a job who drives a car brand and I hobby on the weekends and you're all just jealous."
-Drama Whore-isms
urbandictionary.com
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fornits regulars that get their entertainment from others' pain
I don't just get entertainment from it, it also gets my dick hard. I wish someone would get more of it on film, though. The High Impact video is getting old; I need some new fap material.
*sighs wistfully* I wish I wasn't so high up. I'd so love to work as a counselor for a few days. If only to restrain a sixteen-year-old girl for an hour or two...
Parents, please keep sending your kids away to these places. Ignore the so-called survivors of Fornits. Don't let Miller or anyone in the government scare you away either. Do it for me, and for all of us in the industry.[/list]
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The real question is how many of these anon posts, other than this one, belong to PB Mom on this thread?
And yes PB Mom does seem to play the victim card pretty damn well.
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The real question is how many of these anon posts, other than this one, belong to PB Mom on this thread?
And yes PB Mom does seem to play the victim card pretty damn well.
How do we know you’re not PB Mom, yourself?
That diabolical mother of a child who was murdered!
Does she care nothing for form? The deeply empathic citizenry of fornits are deeply hurt when a mother whose child has been murdered doesn't consider their feelings about "style". The Nerve of this mother of a murdered child to even make you consider that she thinks she is a victim.
Demand an apology for her insensitivity!
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Che, i didn’t mean to imply you don’t have a conscience, but you need to think this out. PB mom is a victim along with her son. When you love someone and they are murdered, you are murdered too. You die
bullshit.
I'd feel sorry for PB Mom if she wasn't constantly taking offense to everything said that doesn't fit her world view. I'd further have some patience with the woman if she repeatedly wasn't trying to play sympathy cards. Last, I'd even be able to tolerate her if she didn't repeatedly try to remind everyone they should be nice and considerate to her because her son died.
fuck that.
A piece of my soul dies every time I see that woman use her son's memory in such a manner. Any sympathy for PB Mom ran out for her, from me, the day she started coming across as a drama queenish attention whore.
PB Mom is looking in the wrong place if she wants sympathy, compassion, or anything else. Finding such things on the internet is absurd.
PB mom.. if you want anything you will only find it at home with your surviving children, family, and friends.
Take the case of Linda Ibbara to heart. The way you are going I see you locked in your car with one of your kids and both of you are dead before the next year is up.
First of all, I never asked for sympathy, never asked anyone to be nice to me, never exploited my son's death, and I've never exhibited the drama whore behavior that YOU love so well. I have defended myself when attacked, and put in my 2 cents when I see information I don't think is valid, or shared my experience in the hopes that one family might be spared from my nightmare. I have just as much right to post my opinion as you do, since my son was a victim of this industry, and as his mother, it is within my rights to use his death as an example of any violation of kids' right that I choose to.
I am not a victim here, I refuse to be victimized either by the industry or by your crap. Yes I have taken offense at porn that ruined some good threads, and I have (understandably) taken offense at some crude jokes about my son's death, and yes, I'm probably a little oversensitive about it. GET OVER IT. my son DIED just a few months ago for pete's sake.
Sorry, I won't be offing myself and providing additional entertainment for you, I plan on being around for a long time, I have a beautiful and kind daughter that I will not leave without a parent. I have done nothing wrong, and have no reason to end my life. And I don't plan on letting you run me off fornits either. We are on the same "side" here, and I have no idea why you continually attack me, it's really unneccessary, and really in bad taste, all things considered.