Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 23, 2007, 10:37:45 PM
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Hi.. new here.. I just want to know if anyone has had their parents charged as an accomplice?
My fucking mom, fucking stupid fat bitch she is had me sent off five months ago...
I was beat up by the counselor in charge of the dorm twice.. fucking cocksucer he is..
Now what can I do about getting my mom charged as an accomplice?
Any ideas?
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How did you get out to post that??
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Turned 18 and walked right out the front fucking door.
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Why would you call your mom a "fucking stupid fat bitch"? Back in my day if someone called my mom that it meant it was time to throw down, you get my meaning, son?
Please tell us, you whiney excuse for a son, what "horrific" program did you attend? How much did this "shithole" cost you mom? Were you sent there just for getting straight A's... right. :roll:
If you would of came here and said you were abused in a program I would of respected you. But here you are, insulting your own mom.. you are a fucking idiot and a bad excuse for a son. Yeah. So your mom made a mistake. Get over it and stop disrespecting your own family that way.
Listen. I was in a program. I know that if you were beat up by your counselor, you must of done something to initiate that sort of thing. Were you restrained or beat up, because there is a big difference? The only kids I saw hit and beat up in the program were kids who were trying to fight with other kids, and they deservced it.
Can you have your mom charged as an accomplice? Of course not you fucking idiot. Now go get a life and stop whining about stupid shit and complaining about your mom who only tried to help you. I'm serious, go get a life and stop disrespecting your mom because you can't do shit, the police will laugh at you if you try to press charges you disrespectful son of a bitch!
Let me guess why you were sent to a program, disrespect issues? Am I right??? :roll: :rofl:
BTW How do you know your counselor is a cocksucker ?? :wink: Yeah. I know all about faggots like you who suck their way through the program , why'd you get out in five months? :rofl: Let that part out didnt ya.....
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I'll give you even money the first post and the post before mine are the exact same person.
Trolls ::tup::
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I'll give you even money the first post and the post before mine are the exact same person.
Well the IPs are different.... of course ya never know though..
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Contact a lawyer and sue the school and her. If she has house insurance, there is a reasonable chance that you can get money from it. You certainly have a chance of getting money from the program. Just keep trying lawyers until you find one that will take your case.
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Getting sent to a program for 'disrespect issues' should be a chargeable offense as child abuse. There is no generally accepted scientific evidence that 'disrespect issues' are appropriately treatable in residential therapy.
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It amazes me that generally the people that whine and cry about a lack of respect in their children show no respect to anyone and run around demanding respect from everyone. Respect is earned people, if your child is disrespectful, that is a flaw on your part, not theirs. I have a 19 year old son, and he loves and respects my husband and I and we love and respect him. You see, it truly is a two-way street.
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Hi.. new here.. I just want to know if anyone has had their parents charged as an accomplice?
My fucking mom, fucking stupid fat bitch she is had me sent off five months ago...
I was beat up by the counselor in charge of the dorm twice.. fucking cocksucer he is..
Now what can I do about getting my mom charged as an accomplice?
Any ideas?
It can be done if you have enough money, you need to contact a lawyer.
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There will come a day when a child sues their parent, if it hasn't happened already.
You people seem to forget. It is the parent, not the program, who sponsors the treatment of their child. They (the parents) are the ones writing the checks. No one forced them to do this. Sure, they were conned. But since when is being ignorant or foolish an excuse for child abuse?
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Why would you call your mom a "fucking stupid fat bitch"? Back in my day if someone called my mom that it meant it was time to throw down, you get my meaning, son?
Please tell us, you whiney excuse for a son, what "horrific" program did you attend? How much did this "shithole" cost you mom? Were you sent there just for getting straight A's... right. :roll:
If you would of came here and said you were abused in a program I would of respected you. But here you are, insulting your own mom.. you are a fucking idiot and a bad excuse for a son. Yeah. So your mom made a mistake. Get over it and stop disrespecting your own family that way.
Listen. I was in a program. I know that if you were beat up by your counselor, you must of done something to initiate that sort of thing. Were you restrained or beat up, because there is a big difference? The only kids I saw hit and beat up in the program were kids who were trying to fight with other kids, and they deservced it.
Can you have your mom charged as an accomplice? Of course not you fucking idiot. Now go get a life and stop whining about stupid shit and complaining about your mom who only tried to help you. I'm serious, go get a life and stop disrespecting your mom because you can't do shit, the police will laugh at you if you try to press charges you disrespectful son of a bitch!
Let me guess why you were sent to a program, disrespect issues? Am I right??? :roll: :rofl:
BTW How do you know your counselor is a cocksucker ?? :wink: Yeah. I know all about faggots like you who suck their way through the program , why'd you get out in five months? :rofl: Let that part out didnt ya.....
I'm gonna have to guess this post was made by CCM girl.
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There will come a day when a child sues their parent, if it hasn't happened already.
You people seem to forget. It is the parent, not the program, who sponsors the treatment of their child. They (the parents) are the ones writing the checks. No one forced them to do this. Sure, they were conned. But since when is being ignorant or foolish an excuse for child abuse?
That is some insightful stuff.. food for thought.
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There will come a day when a child sues their parent, if it hasn't happened already.
You people seem to forget. It is the parent, not the program, who sponsors the treatment of their child. They (the parents) are the ones writing the checks. No one forced them to do this. Sure, they were conned. But since when is being ignorant or foolish an excuse for child abuse?
There is a good reason why parents as well as programs should be held accountable and that is to set a precedent that abandoning the emotional, physical and mental needs of their children is child abuse.
Personally, I have heard of at least one survivor who has talked openly of suing his mother. He had been in programs since the age of 16 and had no real substance abuse problems and was even a A student. I think the problem he ran into was there are not a lot of lawyers willing to sue a parent unless that parent has substantial assets. They much prefer to sue programs who carry large liability insurance policies and can be hit with substantial punitive judgements, as well.
Nevertheless, it's worth a try if one can find a lawyer. I would check with HEAL.
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Bump
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bump
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There will come a day when a child sues their parent, if it hasn't happened already.
You people seem to forget. It is the parent, not the program, who sponsors the treatment of their child. They (the parents) are the ones writing the checks. No one forced them to do this. Sure, they were conned. But since when is being ignorant or foolish an excuse for child abuse?
There is a good reason why parents as well as programs should be held accountable and that is to set a precedent that abandoning the emotional, physical and mental needs of their children is child abuse.
Personally, I have heard of at least one survivor who has talked openly of suing his mother. He had been in programs since the age of 16 and had no real substance abuse problems and was even a A student. I think the problem he ran into was there are not a lot of lawyers willing to sue a parent unless that parent has substantial assets. They much prefer to sue programs who carry large liability insurance policies and can be hit with substantial punitive judgements, as well.
Nevertheless, it's worth a try if one can find a lawyer. I would check with HEAL.
Follow the money trail ....and..... anyone can be sued. Doesn’t mean you will win, but if there are cases where a child was placed into a program for no apparent reason or the child can show there was no need for him to be there then I believe he/she would have a case.
There are all kinds of people out there, believe me, and I am sure this has happened. Of the 20,000 kids going thru programs each year I am sure (based on a purely statistical stand point) there are some that shouldn’t be there and these kids could potentially sue their parents.
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I can only think of one kid out of the 350+ that were in Straight with me that had anything even CLOSE to a "problem". These places don't really care if there is or isn't a problem. If the parents are coming to them, they assume there is one. That's why parents should shoulder quite a bit of the responsibility for what is done to their kids, with their permission. Maybe back in my day parents would have an excuse. They didn't know or whatever. But now? Nope. There's enough resources and info out there that should send every single parent screaming in horror AWAY from the shitpits. But they're not. Junior gets out of line, makes life difficult for mommy and daddy and BAM, Junior goes away. Problem solved.
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I can only think of one kid out of the 350+ that were in Straight with me that had anything even CLOSE to a "problem". These places don't really care if there is or isn't a problem. If the parents are coming to them, they assume there is one. That's why parents should shoulder quite a bit of the responsibility for what is done to their kids, with their permission. Maybe back in my day parents would have an excuse. They didn't know or whatever. But now? Nope. There's enough resources and info out there that should send every single parent screaming in horror AWAY from the shitpits. But they're not. Junior gets out of line, makes life difficult for mommy and daddy and BAM, Junior goes away. Problem solved.
all the average parent today knows about RTC's is that Junior down the block went to one, and came home acting more appropriately, and his parents are just thrilled about their experience. THEY HAVE NO FRICKING IDEA.
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Anne Bonney wrote:
I can only think of one kid out of the 350+ that were in Straight with me that had anything even CLOSE to a "problem
Well you were a kid yourself at the time and probably didn’t speak with the kids doctors, advocates or parents (maybe straight was different than the schools today). I am sure you could walk into any situation in which kids were in a place they didn’t want to be and ask them… “How many of you deserve or want to be here today?â€
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I can only think of one kid out of the 350+ that were in Straight with me that had anything even CLOSE to a "problem". These places don't really care if there is or isn't a problem. If the parents are coming to them, they assume there is one. That's why parents should shoulder quite a bit of the responsibility for what is done to their kids, with their permission. Maybe back in my day parents would have an excuse. They didn't know or whatever. But now? Nope. There's enough resources and info out there that should send every single parent screaming in horror AWAY from the shitpits. But they're not. Junior gets out of line, makes life difficult for mommy and daddy and BAM, Junior goes away. Problem solved.
all the average parent today knows about RTC's is that Junior down the block went to one, and came home acting more appropriately, and his parents are just thrilled about their experience. THEY HAVE NO FRICKING IDEA.
I buy that also, parents are result driven.... if they talk to other parents or see a big change or improvement in a child after coming home from a program they may be less apt to investigate it as much before deciding to send there kid.
Good point, thanks
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Well you were a kid yourself at the time and probably didn’t speak with the kids doctors, advocates or parents (maybe straight was different than the schools today). I am sure you could walk into any situation in which kids were in a place they didn’t want to be and ask them… “How many of you deserve or want to be here today?â€
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Geez Niles, I keep forgetting........what program were you in?
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Geez Niles, I keep forgetting........what program were you in?
I do not have to have had my rights trampled to stand up for the rights of others who are being trampled, CCMGirl.
I don't have to have been in a jail to find it appalling and want to change that.
I don't have to have been an orphan to stand up for orphans.
I don't have to be a woman to stand up for women, and I do... just not you.
I don't have to still be a child to stand up for children.
I don't have to have Cancer to help someone who is going through that and suffered bullshit "treatment" from an inept doctor, either, but guess what...
I don't need your approval to be here, or speak my mind, or stand up for people, children or otherwise, no matter what is hurting them, be it a program, The Who, or your PMS!
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So, you saying that when you are standing up for women you say something to the effect, I am standing up for all women except for CCM girl?
That makes me so sad, I can't even tell you! No wonder why every other woman at work has gotten a pay increase except for me?!!
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Well you were a kid yourself at the time and probably didn’t speak with the kids doctors, advocates or parents (maybe straight was different than the schools today). I am sure you could walk into any situation in which kids were in a place they didn’t want to be and ask them… “How many of you deserve or want to be here today?â€
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CCM is a pitiful excuse for a "survivor" and has some obvious "control" issues she needs to attend to, instead of posting on Fornits ad nauseum.
Niles is a true humanitarian and highly respected for his creative genius, outspoken advocacy and finely tuned sense of humor.
CCM could learn a lot from someone like Niles but what she really needs is a good shrink, IMO.
:wink:
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What gets me is CCM did not graduate any program. She copped out at 16 and stayed hid until she was of legal age.
Why in the hell would she come in here and spread pro-program propaganda. Would the programs that she is supporting use her as a testimony to their success. Again she is the beaming example of how programs change and save lives. ::roflmao::
CCM.... Answer me this.... Are you on the payroll as well as Who???
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l now you finally have a chance to back yourself up for a change (using dialog). Why not bring some facts or studies to the table to back up some of your claims. Take some of your own advice...... I will wait. I think you will see you are better at posting pictures and porn than you are facts.. lets see how well you do
Before I say anything, I'd like to post links to the following two articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology)
I won't clutter this post with that, people can click easily enough.
Now then, TheWho, there is something you don't seem to get. PROGRAMS have the burden of proof on them. Anyone offering treatment has to diagnose a problem, treat it, and prove it works.
Thirty years, remember? Among approximately 900 programs operating presently, during that time span NONE have managed to do that!
Instead, they cite subjective nonsense, studies by students that amounts to an opinion piece regarding their "potential" while also admitting to using abusive practices, and basically say its a matter of "experience" and the teenager forced into the situation to make the most of it, not any responsibility of theirs.
That is Bullshit by any other name. Everyone knows that. If a program says they do something, they have to prove it. If they say something is wrong with a child, they have to prove it. Instead they blame the person who supposedly needs outside help for not making the most of what was done "for" them, keep them there for years, isolate them, and force them to complete a quack "curriculum" of "personal growth" and other such debunked nonsense with new names and tuned for appeal to the current population and their respective fears.
I posted the link to epistemology because you apparently don't know very well what the truth is, hopefully you'll start to get it. But if you did, I doubt you'd act different, you need to keep your job after all, right?
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The who wants studies to back the programs are bad mentality? Sorry, but victims and there parents don't charge the programs thousands of dollars per month for the privilege, there is no money in the survivor side of this, so there is no one interested in paying for studies that support that side of things. Parents are being robbed for the promise of help for their children, and a percentage of that money goes into priming the pump for the next bunch of parents the industry plans to dupe and then rob. Of course Who can find a bunch of Surveys and Studies to back his point of view, the industry bought and paid for the results. Here in realityland, survivors and parents are donating their own time and money without any promise of a payoff at the other end. If you look at this with a little common sense, obviously the people who are not getting a payoff have less reason to be untruthful. We don't get anything from this, but the abuse of people who don't want the stories told. Parents like Pitbull mom have no reason to be untruthful, can you say the same for yourself Who?
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Thanks for the link,Niles, it states that the burden of proof lies on the shoulders of the one making the claims, which is you. Lets go look at the post again.
Niles wrote:
But it seems [/u]
1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
Again its only fair you hold yourself to the same standards. So you need to defend these 3 positions, they were not made by any program , they were made by you.
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The who wants studies to back the programs are bad mentality? Sorry, but victims and there parents don't charge the programs thousands of dollars per month for the privilege, there is no money in the survivor side of this, so there is no one interested in paying for studies that support that side of things. Parents are being robbed for the promise of help for their children, and a percentage of that money goes into priming the pump for the next bunch of parents the industry plans to dupe and then rob. Of course Who can find a bunch of Surveys and Studies to back his point of view, the industry bought and paid for the results. Here in realityland, survivors and parents are donating their own time and money without any promise of a payoff at the other end. If you look at this with a little common sense, obviously the people who are not getting a payoff have less reason to be untruthful. We don't get anything from this, but the abuse of people who don't want the stories told. Parents like Pitbull mom have no reason to be untruthful, can you say the same for yourself Who?
Yes I can.
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Thanks for the link,Niles, it states that the burden of proof lies on the shoulders of the one making the claims, which is you. Lets go look at the post again.
Niles wrote:
But it seems [/u]
1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
Again its only fair you hold yourself to the same standards. So you need to defend these 3 positions, they were not made by any program , they were made by you.
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The industry is the one making the claims. We're saying they need to prove them.
They have not. They claim they provide treatment and will prevent a child from being "Dead insane or in jail" and that without their treatment they would most definitely end up in such a situation.
Additionally ed-cons are the ones saying the children have problems, but they can't prove they do, as they can't diagnose anything.
And, finally, just because a parent THINKS something doesn't mean its real, and they're not proving anything is wrong with their children.
Nice try.
Billions of dollars, thousands of educated professionals (supposedly) and thirty years and they still can't even back up the most fundamental part of what they do with anything but subjective nonsense!
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Lets see you back your claims up for a change. The industry didnt make them, you did, Niles... get moving and set an example.
So again, show us the studies which concluded that:
1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
These are your words, not anybody elses.
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If they can't back up their claims, then what I said they are doing has to be what they are doing!
Either they're backing up what they say, or they're spewing nonsense.
The burden of proof is on the industry, and no matter of linguistic bullshit is going to change that.
#1 is true if #2 and #3 are true.
#2 is true unless EdCons are doctors and actually diagnose children and teenagers. EVERY EdCon I have seen is nothing more than a salesman or saleswoman.
#3 is true unless the programs can prove they need help. They have not.
:roll:
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If they can't back up their claims, then what I said they are doing has to be what they are doing!
Either they're backing up what they say, or they're spewing nonsense.
The burden of proof is on the industry, and no matter of linguistic bullshit is going to change that.
#1 is true if #2 and #3 are true.
#2 is true unless EdCons are doctors and actually diagnose children and teenagers. EVERY EdCon I have seen is nothing more than a salesman or saleswoman.
#3 is true unless the programs can prove they need help. They have not.
:roll:
Wrong again, Niles:
Here read your own words (programs didnt say this you did):
So again, show us the studies which concluded that:
1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
These are your words, not anybody elses.
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I don't need to repeat what I just posted.
You need to learn to understand it.
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I don't need to repeat what I just posted.
You need to learn to understand it.
Thought you would come up empty.
Just remember dont impose standards on others that you are not willing to live up to yourself.
Now dont flip out and start posting porn because you stepped in it, Niles.
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The parents typically work very hard with local services and exhaust every option before choosing to place their child outside the home. Don’t be fooled by what some say here, it is a very difficult decision. Any parent that has kids and are faced with these decisions know what I am talking about.
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Well, you are partially right. My mother did do the rounds with local counselors, psychiatrists, detox centres and drug rehabilition programs (real ones). She took me to every one she could find, and every one told her that I was perfectly fine, so she had to find an appropriately money-oriented program that wouldn't care about that niggling little detail that I didn't have a problem. Lucky her, she found one right in town - and only $150/day (plus the mandatory galas to raise money, fundraising drives and hitting up your more powerful friends for more).
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The parents typically work very hard with local services and exhaust every option before choosing to place their child outside the home. Don’t be fooled by what some say here, it is a very difficult decision. Any parent that has kids and are faced with these decisions know what I am talking about.
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Well, you are partially right. My mother did do the rounds with local counselors, psychiatrists, detox centres and drug rehabilition programs (real ones). She took me to every one she could find, and every one told her that I was perfectly fine, so she had to find an appropriately money-oriented program that wouldn't care about that niggling little detail that I didn't have a problem. Lucky her, she found one right in town - and only $150/day (plus the mandatory galas to raise money, fundraising drives and hitting up your more powerful friends for more).
Rachael, I apologize if you have covered this many times over and I missed it. But why did your mother think you had a problem if all the professionals in town thought you were okay? I remember you saying you had high grades and all and you were not really big into substances (Drugs alcohol), why the detox? She must have been hooked onto some notion that made her not believe the pros. I missed that part of it, I guess.
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The parents typically work very hard with local services and exhaust every option before choosing to place their child outside the home. Don’t be fooled by what some say here, it is a very difficult decision. Any parent that has kids and are faced with these decisions know what I am talking about.
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Well, you are partially right. My mother did do the rounds with local counselors, psychiatrists, detox centres and drug rehabilition programs (real ones). She took me to every one she could find, and every one told her that I was perfectly fine, so she had to find an appropriately money-oriented program that wouldn't care about that niggling little detail that I didn't have a problem. Lucky her, she found one right in town - and only $150/day (plus the mandatory galas to raise money, fundraising drives and hitting up your more powerful friends for more).
Rachael, I apologize if you have covered this many times over and I missed it. But why did your mother think you had a problem if all the professionals in town thought you were okay? I remember you saying you had high grades and all and you were not really big into substances (Drugs alcohol), why the detox? She must have been hooked onto some notion that made her not believe the pros. I missed that part of it, I guess.
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I would guess that notion she was hooked on was "I'm a crazy bitch", perhaps MBP aka Crazy bitch disorder...
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Rachael, I apologize if you have covered this many times over and I missed it. But why did your mother think you had a problem if all the professionals in town thought you were okay? I remember you saying you had high grades and all and you were not really big into substances (Drugs alcohol), why the detox? She must have been hooked onto some notion that made her not believe the pros. I missed that part of it, I guess.
Because it was a clone of STRAIGHT INC. and her mom was fucking insane, dumbass!
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Rachael, I apologize if you have covered this many times over and I missed it. But why did your mother think you had a problem if all the professionals in town thought you were okay? I remember you saying you had high grades and all and you were not really big into substances (Drugs alcohol), why the detox? She must have been hooked onto some notion that made her not believe the pros. I missed that part of it, I guess.
Because it was a clone of STRAIGHT INC. and her mom was fucking insane, dumbass!
Hey !!! Careful, shouldnt you be looking for data to back up your claims? Dont resort to name calling, porn, hate sites or gorillas, the questions was not addressed to you.
So again, show us the studies which concluded that:
1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
Again its only fair you hold yourself to the same standards. So you need to defend these 3 positions, they were not made by any program , they were made by you, Niles.
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1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
Unless the claims are backed up accordingly that IS the truth by deduction!
I've said this before.
The burden of proof is on the parents to prove their kid needs help
The burden of proof is on the Ed-Cons to get a diagnosis
The burden of proof is on the program to show they have a problem and need treatment, and give that treatment, prove it works, and not hold them for a long stay to make more money or because they rely on a curriculum of "personal growth" to be completed before release.
I need a damn template for this reply now.
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1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
Unless the claims are backed up accordingly that IS the truth by deduction!
I've said this before.
The burden of proof is on the parents to prove their kid needs help
The burden of proof is on the Ed-Cons to get a diagnosis
The burden of proof is on the program to show they have a problem and need treatment, and give that treatment, prove it works, and not hold them for a long stay to make more money or because they rely on a curriculum of "personal growth" to be completed before release.
I need a damn template for this reply now.
Sure it is Niles, if parents say their kids need help they need to provide some evidence, get some testing done etc..... I think we all agree with this.... but right now we are looking at what So again, show us the studies which concluded that:[/u]
1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
You seem to like studies, so provide us with an example of what you consider to be acceptable evidence.
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1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
Unless the claims are backed up accordingly that IS the truth by deduction!
I've said this before.
The burden of proof is on the parents to prove their kid needs help
The burden of proof is on the Ed-Cons to get a diagnosis
The burden of proof is on the program to show they have a problem and need treatment, and give that treatment, prove it works, and not hold them for a long stay to make more money or because they rely on a curriculum of "personal growth" to be completed before release.
I need a damn template for this reply now.
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1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
Unless the claims are backed up accordingly that IS the truth by deduction!
I've said this before.
The burden of proof is on the parents to prove their kid needs help
The burden of proof is on the Ed-Cons to get a diagnosis
The burden of proof is on the program to show they have a problem and need treatment, and give that treatment, prove it works, and not hold them for a long stay to make more money or because they rely on a curriculum of "personal growth" to be completed before release.
I need a damn template for this reply now.
We all agree with you Niles, you are not a bad guy, but lets finish with what you said. The parents need to provide proof for their claims (agreed), the programs need to provide proof for their claims (agreed), Niles needs to provide proof for his claims (oh no !! you changed the rules, why are you exempt?)
Provide your proof, Niles, dont hold others to a higher standard.
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1. Most parents just knee jerk into sending their kids away for treatment.
2. That Ed Cons make up problems.
3. The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
Unless the claims are backed up accordingly that IS the truth by deduction!
I've said this before. The burden of proof is on THEM.
The burden of proof is on the parents to prove their kid needs help
The burden of proof is on the Ed-Cons to get a diagnosis
The burden of proof is on the program to show they have a problem and need treatment, and give that treatment, prove it works, and not hold them for a long stay to make more money or because they rely on a curriculum of "personal growth" to be completed before release.
Until they back up what they've claimed for 30 years, they're fulla shit, and having taken so long and not ponied up any proof at all, I'd say its bullshit. Who wouldn't? Oh, Who wouldn't!
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I've said this before. The burden of proof is on THEM.
The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim(s) and we are all looking for you to prove your statements or retract them.
You provided the links and the definition...
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Exactly, THEY MADE THE CLAIMS! THEY DON'T BACK THEM UP!
They've had 30 years!
Edcon's do not DX, programs do not prove their effectiveness, and parent CHOICE is not a good enough reason for incarceration!
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Exactly, THEY MADE THE CLAIMS! THEY DON'T BACK THEM UP!
They've had 30 years!
Edcon's do not DX, programs do not prove their effectiveness, and parent CHOICE is not a good enough reason for incarceration!
Okay, How about your claims? Do you intend to back them up?
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I don't have to!
They said they do something, I say prove it. They have not.
You can not say I have to prove a negative. :roll:
You don't get it. I don't have to prove innocence if someone says I committed a crime, they prove it. Those programs have to prove they do what they do and I'm freely allowed to say "I want some proof".
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I don't have to!
They said they do something, I say prove it. They have not.
You can not say I have to prove a negative. :roll:
You don't get it. I don't have to prove innocence if someone says I committed a crime, they prove it. Those programs have to prove they do what they do and I'm freely allowed to say "I want some proof".
I agree 100% What I am saying is you need to prove what you say, your claims (not anyone elses)... and you havent done that yet. Lets not have double standards.
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I'm telling them to prove what they say.
You're trying to keep them from having to do that by saying I have to prove that what they're not proving is in fact not true.
That is like making an accused person prove his innocence.
It doesn't work that way.
Go take Logic 101
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I'm telling them to prove what they say.
You're trying to keep them from having to do that by saying I have to prove that what they're not proving is in fact not true.
That is like making an accused person prove his innocence.
It doesn't work that way.
Go take Logic 101
forget everyone else for a moment.. now you come on here and make statements about what the majority of parents, Edcons and children think and do without a shred of evidence.
You said the vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all.
All I am asking is how you back up those statements... do you just make it up, pull it out your ass, like you claim others do or do you have data to support what you say. Don’t criticize others if you cant live up to those standards yourself. You have been jacking people up for years here and now it is your turn:
back up your statements or maybe state they are just your opinion... that would be acceptable too.
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Back it up THE WHO - Niles doesn't have to prove a damn thing. The proof is in the pudding.
Approximately 10,000 to 20,000 kids are sent to so-called "specialty" schools (sic) every year without their parents having to show good or in fact, any cause, whatsoever.
Logic, not speculation, tells you that since these schools are designed primarily to enable parents to control their child's behavior, the majority of the kids who are (cough-cough) "enrolled" in these facilities are there by order of their parent - not the state and/or judicial system.
Parents can lock their kids up for any number of reasons, including the condition of being a normal teenager.
:roll:
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I can only think of one kid out of the 350+ that were in Straight with me that had anything even CLOSE to a "problem". These places don't really care if there is or isn't a problem. If the parents are coming to them, they assume there is one. That's why parents should shoulder quite a bit of the responsibility for what is done to their kids, with their permission. Maybe back in my day parents would have an excuse. They didn't know or whatever. But now? Nope. There's enough resources and info out there that should send every single parent screaming in horror AWAY from the shitpits. But they're not. Junior gets out of line, makes life difficult for mommy and daddy and BAM, Junior goes away. Problem solved.
You know Anne on many levels i can agree with this as there does seem to be a lot of info out there. But the interent is only one source of media. I have sadly read as many positive sales pieces in mainstream American papers as negative allegations. The positive pieces have been easier for me to find too. Moreover many of the negative allegations have been in local small town papers. I have also googled parenting teens etc and had to search qiute hard for anything negative about programs or even just agenda free advice sites. Not so for program ads which come up by the bucketful. When this is coupled with medical experts who recommend programs as many parents say has happened or the judiciary sending kids to dangerous wilderness programs or laywers selling programs, I *dont know* if it is as simple in every case as just wanting to get rid of a difficult kid. i would agree with this in many cases but not all about all . i also understand that if i were sent somewhere that made me miserable and incarcerated me perhaps I would find it hard to have any love for those who sent me.
But ultimately to a lagre extent a legal system reflects what a society values. I dont see how parents can be charged by a legal system which has gotten dispropotionately heavy handed in the way that it treats young people. What needs to change as much as anything imo is the way kids are percieved by the adult world. With this in mind I would leave judging or holding parents accountable to the kids who get sent. Not the courts and certainly not strangers. In my eyes those who suffered in these places are the only people who have this right and ultimately the only people who can ever really gain a sense of why their parent did what they did.
A question for those who feel anger toward their parents for sending them to a program. Would you feel any better if you did sue your parent/s? Would it bring closure or peace?
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Back it up THE WHO - Niles doesn't have to prove a damn thing. The proof is in the pudding.
Approximately 10,000 to 20,000 kids are sent to so-called "specialty" schools (sic) every year without their parents having to show good or in fact, any cause, whatsoever.
Logic, not speculation, tells you that since these schools are designed primarily to enable parents to control their child's behavior, the majority of the kids who are (cough-cough) "enrolled" in these facilities are there by order of their parent - not the state and/or judicial system.
Parents can lock their kids up for any number of reasons, including the condition of being a normal teenager.
:roll:
They are talking about a statement Niles said, He needs to back up his own claims.
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Gobsmack - guest can you not read? Niles doesn't have to back up his statement that most of the kids sent to these so-called specialty schools don't need to be there because these schools don't discriminate in terms of their admission criteria. When you get down to it, the best a kid can hope for is their parents can not finance their forced re-education but that is virtually unheard of nowadays as long as the parent (AKA "Sponsor") or relative has a home to mortgage or valuable assets they can sell to raise cash. If not, and it's a WWASPS program, the parent can sell other kids into a program to finance their own child's detainment.
Face it guest. IT'S THE MONEY, STUPID!
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Gobsmack - guest can you not read? Niles doesn't have to back up his statement that most of the kids sent to these so-called specialty schools don't need to be there because these schools don't discriminate in terms of their admission criteria. When you get down to it, the best a kid can hope for is their parents can not finance their forced re-education but that is virtually unheard of nowadays as long as the parent (AKA "Sponsor") or relative has a home to mortgage or valuable assets they can sell to raise cash. If not, and it's a WWASPS program, the parent can sell other kids into a program to finance their own child's detainment.
Face it guest. IT'S THE MONEY, STUPID!
So based on your logic, no one has to back up their statements. One person can say most of the kids dont need to be there and another can say well maybe half the kids need to be there and another can say all the kids need to be there, but no one needs to back up their statements?
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go away theWho, you aren't fooling anyone.
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So based on your logic, no one has to back up their statements. One person can say most of the kids dont need to be there and another can say well maybe half the kids need to be there and another can say all the kids need to be there, but no one needs to back up their statements?
Programs advertise that they work. They charge parents enormous amounts of money to provide these services. When Fornits starts charging you for therapy, we'll talk.
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So based on your logic, no one has to back up their statements. One person can say most of the kids dont need to be there and another can say well maybe half the kids need to be there and another can say all the kids need to be there, but no one needs to back up their statements?
Programs advertise that they work. They charge parents enormous amounts of money to provide these services. When Fornits starts charging you for therapy, we'll talk.
Programs should back up what they say with some type of study, but we also need to back up what we say.
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So based on your logic, no one has to back up their statements. One person can say most of the kids dont need to be there and another can say well maybe half the kids need to be there and another can say all the kids need to be there, but no one needs to back up their statements?
Programs advertise that they work. They charge parents enormous amounts of money to provide these services. When Fornits starts charging you for therapy, we'll talk.
Programs should back up what they say with some type of study, but we also need to back up what we say.
True, but when program proponents start talking about kids needing help, they'd better back that up with a dx. They don't. THEY are the ones saying kids need help and that they have the answer. Its incumbent upon them to provide proof that there is a need for such institutions and that what they do works. They never do.
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So it seems we agree, the schools need to back up their claims of helping kids and people who make comments like:
"The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all. "
need to back up their comments also. To say that more than 50% of the kids in these schools do not need any help at all is a big statement and I would imagine would need to be backed up with some type of medical data or child testing.
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So it seems we agree, the schools need to back up their claims of helping kids and people who make comments like:
"The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all. "
need to back up their comments also. To say that more than 50% of the kids in these schools do not need any help at all is a big statement and I would imagine would need to be backed up with some type of medical data or child testing.
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You would be wrong. Programs are the ones making the claims that help is needed and that they have the answer. Where are the diagnosis for all these kids? Where are the long term clinical studies that prove that what they do works?
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So it seems we agree, the schools need to back up their claims of helping kids and people who make comments like:
"The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all. "
need to back up their comments also. To say that more than 50% of the kids in these schools do not need any help at all is a big statement and I would imagine would need to be backed up with some type of medical data or child testing.
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You would be wrong. Programs are the ones making the claims that help is needed and that they have the answer. Where are the diagnosis for all these kids? Where are the long term clinical studies that prove that what they do works?
Exactly and that is my point. If a person makes a claim then they need to back it up with some type of data, unless they are expressing an opinion.
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Exactly and that is my point. If a person makes a claim then they need to back it up with some type of data, unless they are expressing an opinion.
Programs are claiming enormous success rates. Programs are telling parents that the kid needs to be in there without benefit of a diagnosis. Programs are charging unbelievable amounts of money for their services. The burden of proof is on them (you).
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Exactly and that is my point. If a person makes a claim then they need to back it up with some type of data, unless they are expressing an opinion.
Programs are claiming enormous success rates. Programs are telling parents that the kid needs to be in there without benefit of a diagnosis. Programs are charging unbelievable amounts of money for their services. The burden of proof is on them (you).
Yes it is and I agree with you 100%, but aside from that if someone states:
The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all
This statement needs to be backed up also.
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AssWHO,
Listen up - pal. Asking survivors to come up with studies and stats is like telling a survivor from Aushwitz to prove that the holocaust occured. In fact, you do remind me with your rigid posting style "demanding proof" of being a holocaust denier.
So, the conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. there will always be assholes like you who insist on scientific proof that in fact over 7 million people dies in the holocaust.
Programs are abusive. Deal with it.
Because we as shit don't need to prove it to the like of scumbags like you.
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Let me try to reword this:
The schools make claims of success rates and how they help the kids and I agree that they need to back up these claims with some studies. But without these studies none of us know for sure how many kids in these programs need help. It could be 10 % it could be 100% or anywhere in between.
I cant say it is 100% and you cant say it is 10% until some sort of study is done and we all look to the schools to produce this evidence, but until such time none of us know for sure so we cant make statements like:
The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all
until some studies are done.
Hope that clears it up a little better.
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The parents typically work very hard with local services and exhaust every option before choosing to place their child outside the home. Don’t be fooled by what some say here, it is a very difficult decision. Any parent that has kids and are faced with these decisions know what I am talking about.
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Well, you are partially right. My mother did do the rounds with local counselors, psychiatrists, detox centres and drug rehabilition programs (real ones). She took me to every one she could find, and every one told her that I was perfectly fine, so she had to find an appropriately money-oriented program that wouldn't care about that niggling little detail that I didn't have a problem. Lucky her, she found one right in town - and only $150/day (plus the mandatory galas to raise money, fundraising drives and hitting up your more powerful friends for more).
Rachael, I apologize if you have covered this many times over and I missed it. But why did your mother think you had a problem if all the professionals in town thought you were okay? I remember you saying you had high grades and all and you were not really big into substances (Drugs alcohol), why the detox? She must have been hooked onto some notion that made her not believe the pros. I missed that part of it, I guess.
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My now ex-wife did the same thing to her son. She got him admitted to a program at $10,000 a month based on ADHD and depression. The program itself said he doesn't have ADHD or depression but took him anyway.
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Let me try to reword this:
The schools make claims of success rates and how they help the kids and I agree that they need to back up these claims with some studies. But without these studies none of us know for sure how many kids in these programs need help. It could be 10 % it could be 100% or anywhere in between.
I cant say it is 100% and you cant say it is 10% until some sort of study is done and we all look to the schools to produce this evidence, but until such time none of us know for sure so we cant make statements like:
The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all
until some studies are done.
Hope that clears it up a little better.
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There is no evidence that any of these programs help anyone. Yet, there is plenty of evidence that they kill and maim kids often. No reasonable person would give someone a drug that does no good but has a substantial risk of killing or maiming them. It should be illegal to submit kids to residential therapeutic facilities without some generally accepted scientific evidence that they actually do more good than harm.
If we could get the product liabilities attorneys who take on cigarettes, fen/phen and the like to take on residential therapeutic facilities, they would fold as fast as the drug companies do with a bad drug. The entire industry would shut down.
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There is no evidence that any of these programs help anyone....
That is not the point being argued here. The question is do any of these kids need help. Someone said that the vast majority of kids dont need any help. How does anyone know how many kids need help.
No one can make that statement unless there is some sort of study done. The schools should provide the studies, but none of us can know for sure how many kids need help until that time.
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That is not the point being argued here. The question is do any of these kids need help. Someone said that the vast majority of kids dont need any help. How does anyone know how many kids need help.
No one can make that statement unless there is some sort of study done. The schools should provide the studies, but none of us can know for sure how many kids need help until that time.
& there is no telling how many parents needs parenting classes/coaching/forced sterilization to never have anymore children because they never should've cranked them out in the first place.
The parents need to step up and take responsibility at some point instead of blaming everyone else. Not all parents, but a few I can think of off the top of my head. Not fob them off on someone else, assWho.
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to re-iterate -
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to re-iterate -
If you are one of them then I would have to agree with you on that point, He.He.He
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"The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all. "
Since there is no clinical evidence one way or the other, good luck backing up that statement. But regardless of the percentage, it is little consolation to the kids that really do need help and can't get it anywhere, or to the parents who get the program sales pitch about saving junior before it's too late.
Sorry folks, but this is the wrong approach. Programs are not the answer and programs have been known to induce great damage or even death in many cases. But denying that some kids have real problems is not going to help shut down programs.
Evidence-based treatment methods that are humane, respectful of the patient's rights and are done on an outpatient basis -- now that might get us somewhere.
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"The vast majority of children in programs don't need any help at all. "
Since there is no clinical evidence one way or the other, good luck backing up that statement. But regardless of the percentage, it is little consolation to the kids that really do need help and can't get it anywhere, or to the parents who get the program sales pitch about saving junior before it's too late.
Sorry folks, but this is the wrong approach. Programs are not the answer and programs have been known to induce great damage or even death in many cases. But denying that some kids have real problems is not going to help shut down programs.
Evidence-based treatment methods that are humane, respectful of the patient's rights and are done on an outpatient basis -- now that might get us somewhere.
Yes, but there is our own experience. Does 4 year years if insitutionalization mean nothing? No, NONE of the kids, i was in with had anything close to a mental condition. They were normal kids, with abnormal life situations. they needed help in the sense that they needed half way decent families.
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they needed help in the sense that they needed half way decent families.
And how, pray tell, is a PROGRAM or any "institution" going to provide that?
Their best bet is freedom - a halfway house, to get their own job, spend time with friends, and see if they can fit in with a friends family, or start their own circle of friends.
Not being controlled in a program.
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they needed help in the sense that they needed half way decent families.
And how, pray tell, is a PROGRAM or any "institution" going to provide that?
Their best bet is freedom - a halfway house, to get their own job, spend time with friends, and see if they can fit in with a friends family, or start their own circle of friends.
Not being controlled in a program.
they needed help in the sense that they needed half way decent families.
And how, pray tell, is a PROGRAM or any "institution" going to provide that?
Their best bet is freedom - a halfway house, to get their own job, spend time with friends, and see if they can fit in with a friends family, or start their own circle of friends.
Not being controlled in a program.
Yes. What’s best in circumstances like this is, is giving them control over their own lives, the “rightsâ€
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I know of one parent who is being sued for this as we speak
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I know of one parent who is being sued for this as we speak
It's only right that they should sue the parents and not the programs.
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bump