Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Mummie on October 07, 2007, 01:51:22 PM
-
Keith C. Russell, Ph. D., of the University of Idaho's Wilderness Research Center. I am thinking...another name to add to the list. This was taken from Outbacks program site.
-
also, did anyone see this????? http://http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1009617&page=1 It's a 2005 article that has been brought back to the top of google under troubled teens.
-
Keith Russell is the father, and Catherine Freer is the mother of the bastard child known as NATSAP...
-
No kidding? Jesus Wept. I did not know that. You learn something every day. I love this place.
-
Keith Russell is the father, and Catherine Freer is the mother of the bastard child known as NATSAP...
Now we are suppose to hate NATSAP? What have they done? They seem to be the closest thing we have to regulation of these places.
-
Now we are suppose to hate NATSAP? What have they done? They seem to be the closest thing we have to regulation of these places.
*facepalm*
Lurk more.
-
Effective May 1, 2007, all programs applying for membership in NATSAP (http://http://www.natsap.org/) must meet the following requirements:
1. Licensure by the appropriate state agency authorized to set and oversee standards of therapeutic and/or behavioral healthcare for youth and adolescents or accreditation by a mental health accreditation agency.
2. Therapeutic services with oversight by a qualified clinician.
3. Compliance with NATSAP Ethical Principles and NATSAP Principles of Good Practice (see www.natsap.org (http://www.natsap.org)).
Our association and its members are supportive of all efforts to eliminate every so-called boot camp or other 'tough love' program that does not use a therapeutic milieu in working with adolescents," Moss says. "We continue to work with state and federal lawmakers and agencies to encourage, establish and strengthen state laws and regulations to protect children in need of out-of-home placement."
The National Association Of Therapeutic Schools and Programs ("NATSAP" (http://http://www.natsap.org/)) members across the United States are saddened by the shocking instance of abuse reported in the ABC News story entitled "Boot Camp Pastor Charged in Girl's Dragging". Jan Moss, Executive Director of NATSAP says this report again points out the need for state licensure and oversight of the programs and schools that serve our struggling young people.
http://http://www.prweb.com/releases/2007/3/prweb515516.htm
http://http://www.prweb.com/releases/2007/8/prweb547938.htm
...
-
Wow...yeah, it looks great! Who oversees and enforces the principles of good practice? Has any program been kicked out of NATSAP for violations? I'm really curious as to the board of directors, who must be unbiased. Oh, here they are:
Sharon Laney President Three Springs
Craig LaMont, MS, LMFT Vice-President Telos Residential Treatment
Will White Secretary Summit Achievement
Gil Hallows Treasurer Aspen Achievement Academy
Michael Berrett, Ph.D. Center for Change
Linda Carpenter Star Meadows Academy at Hope Ranch
Karen Fitzhugh King George School
Penny James Explorations
Michael Merchant ANASAZI Foundation
James Meyer Oakley School
Sidney Parham Family Foundation School
Craig Rodabough CERTS
John Stewart New Haven
John Santa, Ph.D. Ex Officio Montana Academy
Audrey Peavey New Horizons for Young Women
Jane Kolber Ex Officio IECA Special Needs Chair
Wait a minute! These people run programs, and some damned questionable ones at that! There seems to an imbalance here...
And what's all this, then?
5.0 Special Treatment Procedures (STP)
Special Treatment Procedures refer to a specific class of behavioral interventions that restrict the free movement of a child by mechanical or physical means for a prolonged period of time when the child becomes a danger to self and/or others, is destructive of property, or is a serious disruption to the therapeutic environment. Specifically, those interventions are referred to as seclusion, restraint, or more than 30 minutes of a physical hold.
Seclusion is a procedure where the individual is restricted to a small space, such as a time-out room, without the ability to leave the room, i.e. the individual is blocked from exiting either by a locked-door or by a staff standing in the door and preventing the program participant from leaving the room for more than 30 minutes.
A Restraint procedure occurs when a mechanical device such as leather belts, posy belts, strait jackets, hand cuffs, or other devices are used to restrict the free movement of an individual or whenever a program participant is placed in a physical hold exceeding 30 minutes.
Those NATSAP members, who employ special treatment procedures, must be licensed or accredited by state and/or national regulatory organizations that specifically address the use of said procedures.
However, any NATSAP member program may resort to physical restraint in order to remove a participant to a more restrictive level of care in the event of imminent threat of serious injury to the program participant or others. All NATSAP programs must have specific policy, procedures, and training to respond to such emergent situations.
6.0 Risk Management and Performance Improvement
6.1 Physical holdings, restraint and seclusion can be high risk and problem prone. The organization should collect data on the use of brief physical holding interventions and special treatment procedures in order to monitor and improve performance of processes that involve risk or may result in sentinel events.
As I recall, programs "self-regulate" by signing a promise to follow the Golden Code of NATSAP.
It's a lame attempt at dodging regulation, that's all. The Board members have everything to lose from a NATSAP program getting into trouble.
Isn't HLA a NATSAP program, Who?[/i]
-
Wow...yeah, it looks great! Who oversees and enforces the principles of good practice? Has any program been kicked out of NATSAP for violations? I'm really curious as to the board of directors, who must be unbiased.
Hmmm. Maybe you are right..how can we compare this, lets see. Why don’t we take a look at hospitals:
JCAHO oversees hospitals, lets see who oversees the principals and good practices at JCAHO…â€
-
Who, there's a huge difference with doctors and hospitals.
1) It's not *the same exact people* who are monitoring themselves. In other words, JCAHO (which has plenty of faults, nonetheless) does not consist of current hospital owners and operators. They employ doctors, but it's not like Joe Hospital Exec monitors the hospital he works for!!!
2) Doctors and hospitals are subject to numerous additional state (and some federal) regulations. There are many inspectors.
3) Every hospital has a patient ombudsman whose entire job is to take patient complaints seriously and nothing but.
4) Peer reviewed research governs much of what doctors and hospitals do. If they fail to follow relevant guidelines, they can and DO GET SUED FOR SERIOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY. Didn't you ever hear about the crisis in malpractice insurance?
5) Hospitals do not have an ideology which consists of saying that all patients are liars and manipulators whose complaints should be ignored for as long as possible.
6) Doctors generally go into medicine because they want to help people-- not primarily to make money. Obviously, there are many exceptions but doctors are trained extensively on ethics and they have a code which begins FIRST DO NO HARM!!!!
7) It is in a hospital's best interest to do good infection control, one of the many standards on which JCAHO rates them. If you simply pretend, you will have lots of patient deaths and additional illnesses. However, if a program simply pretends to follow standards, there's no way of knowing about it because kids are not believed and many deaths go unreported due to lack of regulation.
8) JCAHO CAN AND DOES SHUT DOWN HOSPITALS. NATSAP has neither the will nor the power to do that.
I could go on but I'm getting bored.
-
Its the exact same thing, Here:
• There have been "glaring examples" of JCAHO missing important quality problems, notably at Redding Medical Center (California), Maryland General Hospital, Norwalk Hospital (Connecticut), and Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center (Florida).
• About 99 percent of the hospitals reviewed by the joint commission win accreditation...." "Some critics point to the approval rate as evidence that the joint commission is captive to hospitals."
• JCAHO has a "subsidiary, Joint Commission Resources, [which] was established in the 1990s to consult with hospitals on how to gain accrediation and improve their performance." "Directly or indirectly, most of JCR's nearly $33 million in revenue comes from helping hospitals win the joint commission's seal of approval."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01023.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/24/AR2005072401023.html)
http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2005/07/a ... erest.html (http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2005/07/allegations-of-conflicts-of-interest.html)
I could go on and on, but NATSAP isnt set up to shut down programs. They are building credibility and teeth by raising the bar a little higher each time. JCAHO when they formed in the 1950's didnt run around shutting hospitals down, it took them years to gain power and credibility...same thing with NATSAP....
If you look at how JCAHO was developed and grew you would see it is exactly like NATSAP is progressing
...
-
shut up Sullie, we are all sick of you.
-
Keith Russell is the father, and Catherine Freer is the mother of the bastard child known as NATSAP...
Now we are suppose to hate NATSAP? What have they done? They seem to be the closest thing we have to regulation of these places.
::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
Oh Who.. You have such a good sense o humor sometimes. (No, I didn't check, but i'd bet 100$ that you wrote the above post... am I right?)
-
Its the exact same thing, Here:
• There have been "glaring examples" of JCAHO missing important quality problems, notably at Redding Medical Center (California), Maryland General Hospital, Norwalk Hospital (Connecticut), and Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center (Florida).
• About 99 percent of the hospitals reviewed by the joint commission win accreditation...." "Some critics point to the approval rate as evidence that the joint commission is captive to hospitals."
• JCAHO has a "subsidiary, Joint Commission Resources, [which] was established in the 1990s to consult with hospitals on how to gain accrediation and improve their performance." "Directly or indirectly, most of JCR's nearly $33 million in revenue comes from helping hospitals win the joint commission's seal of approval."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01023.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/24/AR2005072401023.html)
http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2005/07/a ... erest.html (http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2005/07/allegations-of-conflicts-of-interest.html)
I could go on and on, but NATSAP isnt set up to shut down programs. They are building credibility and teeth by raising the bar a little higher each time. JCAHO when they formed in the 1950's didnt run around shutting hospitals down, it took them years to gain power and credibility...same thing with NATSAP....
If you look at how JCAHO was developed and grew you would see it is exactly like NATSAP is progressing
...
Peninsula Village has JCAHO certification...but a quick check on the JCAHO site reveals Park West Medical in Knoxville has the certification for two of it's clinical labs, nothing else. Peninsula Village is part of the Park West group which is part of the Covenant group, knee bone connected to the thigh bone...
Peninsula doesn't have the certification and has no right to be stating they are JCAHO certified. So, yeah, Sullie, I see how NATSAP is progressing like JCAHO.
Remove yer head from the dark and dank place you keep it stuck in, you need air, boy.
Say, when the shit hits the fan at Peninsula Village and Covenant wants to be rid of a public relations nightmare, a concern could buy the place for pennies on the dollar.
-
Which is why JCAHO is a joke......
-
Peninsula doesn't have the certification and has no right to be stating they are JCAHO certified.
Its not JCAHO's fault, "Mikes abortion clinic" could say they are JCAHO certified, but if no one tells JCAHO they cant react.
-
So, yeah, Sullie, I see how NATSAP is progressing like JCAHO.
This all I wanted to point out, good, bad or indifferent..... sorry it took a long about way. But if you look back at JCAHO's path you will see that eventually NATSAP will gain more and more control and be able to make a big difference in the industry. Right now they dont have a ton of pull, as JCAHO didnt in the beginning.
So give them time, let them grow and flurish, they will do some good.
-
So, yeah, Sullie, I see how NATSAP is progressing like JCAHO.
This all I wanted to point out, good, bad or indifferent..... sorry it took a long about way. But if you look back at JCAHO's path you will see that eventually NATSAP will gain more and more control and be able to make a big difference in the industry. Right now they dont have a ton of pull, as JCAHO didnt in the beginning.
So give them time, let them grow and flurish, they will do some good.
Um. I just kinda wanted to remind you guys that regardless of certification, accreditation, or license, abuse still takes place at NATSAP schools. PV, HLA, and Benchmark are great examples of this. Have you actually read what PV survivors have said, Who?
In any case Please cut the crap, Who. NATSAP is a trade organization, not any type of oversight, licensing, or accretidation (although with all those letters, it sure sounds to parents like it is). It's "Principles of Good practice" are NOT enforced, by their own admission to me on the phone when I called to complain about Benchmark. (don't believe me... call them up as somebody else and try to complain about a school) NATSAP does not investigate it's schools, their claims, or survivors claims of abuse. About the only think they DO do is lobby against legislation and put out a lot of industry PR for member schools and organizations.
-
Keith Russell is the father, and Catherine Freer is the mother of the bastard child known as NATSAP...
I like the play on words, but technically, the father of NATSAP is Len Buccellato of Hidden Lake Academy and the mother is John Redden.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=88171#88171 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=88171#88171)
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=88171#88171 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=88171#88171)
The original board
Michael Allgood, Cascade School, California, 3-year term
Tim Brace, Aspen Youth Services, California, 3-year term
Len Buccellato, Hidden Lake Academy, Georgia, 3-year term Bobbi Christensen, Crater Lake School, Oregon, 3-year term
Kimbal DeLaMare, Island View, Utah, 2-year term
Gary Emmons, Brush Ranch School, New Mexico, 2-year term
John Mercer, Mission Mountain School, 2-year term
Jan Moss, Spring Ridge Academy, Arizona, 3- year term
John Santa, Montana Academy, Montana, 3-year term
Rosemary Tippett, Three Springs, Alabama, 3-year term.
I'd consider Russell and CFW the parents of the more recent Wilderness 'Therapy' industry.
-
Keith Russell is the father, and Catherine Freer is the mother of the bastard child known as NATSAP...
I like the play on words, but technically, the father of NATSAP is Len Buccellato of Hidden Lake Academy and the mother is John Redden.
::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
-
Keith Russell is the father, and Catherine Freer is the mother of the bastard child known as NATSAP...
I like the play on words, but technically, the father of NATSAP is Len Buccellato of Hidden Lake Academy and the mother is John Redden.
::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
So in other words, it was somehow crapped out?
-
So, yeah, Sullie, I see how NATSAP is progressing like JCAHO.
This all I wanted to point out, good, bad or indifferent..... sorry it took a long about way. But if you look back at JCAHO's path you will see that eventually NATSAP will gain more and more control and be able to make a big difference in the industry. Right now they dont have a ton of pull, as JCAHO didnt in the beginning.
So give them time, let them grow and flurish, they will do some good.
Um. I just kinda wanted to remind you guys that regardless of certification, accreditation, or license, abuse still takes place at NATSAP schools. PV, HLA, and Benchmark are great examples of this. Have you actually read what PV survivors have said, Who?
In any case Please cut the crap, Who. NATSAP is a trade organization, not any type of oversight, licensing, or accretidation (although with all those letters, it sure sounds to parents like it is). It's "Principles of Good practice" are NOT enforced, by their own admission to me on the phone when I called to complain about Benchmark. (don't believe me... call them up as somebody else and try to complain about a school) NATSAP does not investigate it's schools, their claims, or survivors claims of abuse. About the only think they DO do is lobby against legislation and put out a lot of industry PR for member schools and organizations.
If you look at NATSAP’s (http://http://www.natsap.org/overview.asp) web site you will see that their effort is to continue to improve the conditions of the schools, improve education, encourage clinical case studies, risk management, etc. They have set up a journal as a vehicle for members to share their accomplishments with other members and paths of progress.
They intend to eliminate “Boot-campsâ€
-
They intend to eliminate “Boot-campsâ€
-
Which 'therapeutic' venue does "accepting JC, understanding and accepting attonement" come from?
According to the founder of NATSAPs member program Heritage RTC, this is necessary for kids to 'improve'.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=287033#287033 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=287033#287033)
-
So, yeah, Sullie, I see how NATSAP is progressing like JCAHO.
This all I wanted to point out, good, bad or indifferent..... sorry it took a long about way. But if you look back at JCAHO's path you will see that eventually NATSAP will gain more and more control and be able to make a big difference in the industry. Right now they dont have a ton of pull, as JCAHO didnt in the beginning.
So give them time, let them grow and flurish, they will do some good.
Um. I just kinda wanted to remind you guys that regardless of certification, accreditation, or license, abuse still takes place at NATSAP schools. PV, HLA, and Benchmark are great examples of this. Have you actually read what PV survivors have said, Who?
In any case Please cut the crap, Who. NATSAP is a trade organization, not any type of oversight, licensing, or accretidation (although with all those letters, it sure sounds to parents like it is). It's "Principles of Good practice" are NOT enforced, by their own admission to me on the phone when I called to complain about Benchmark. (don't believe me... call them up as somebody else and try to complain about a school) NATSAP does not investigate it's schools, their claims, or survivors claims of abuse. About the only think they DO do is lobby against legislation and put out a lot of industry PR for member schools and organizations.
If you look at NATSAP’s (http://http://www.natsap.org/overview.asp) web site you will see that their effort is to continue to improve the conditions of the schools, improve education, encourage clinical case studies, risk management, etc. They have set up a journal as a vehicle for members to share their accomplishments with other members and paths of progress.
They intend to eliminate “Boot-campsâ€
-
They intend to eliminate “Boot-campsâ€
-
Sorry to post this again.....
Nothing new, no new bar. They've always claimed to require proper licensing/accreditation - two very different things.
From 2005
http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/nat ... iples.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/natsapprinciples.html)
Highlight- 1.0 ADHERENCE TO STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS
The program/school shall adhere to all applicable state and federal laws in conducting the operation, including administration, hiring and employee practices, observance of safety regulations, and the care of program participants.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=88723#88723 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=88723#88723)
This has never been true. And they turn a blind eye when programs are shut down by the state and open with a new classification (private boarding school) to avoid further regulation.
"The new standards require our therapeutic programs and schools to maintain state licensure http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=252780#252780[/url]
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=214897#214897 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=214897#214897)
State Licensure OR Accreditation.
Scroll down the list of programs. That's the way it's always been. Some are licensed and the therapeutic aspect of the program is monitored by the state, fwiw. The academic component of some programs is reviewed by an Accrediting agency. A few have JCAHO accreditation. Some have nothing.
-
Zen wrote:
Yeah, but you post here freely and present an opposing view. There's no pro-industry forum that allows opposing views (right, ST?) Look over the board of directors of NATSAP again - not a very diverse group, absolutely no one to balance the opinions.. NATSAP has not progressed as a regulatory body, it only serves to represent the interests of the programs associated with it. It's become cliche, but NATSAP is "the fox guarding the hen house" and that's all. NATSAP's involvement in writing regulations is like asking the Mafia's suggestions on the Rico laws, or how to stop racketeering . NATSAP wants to maintain the status quo that's been in effect for over twenty years, they have no desire to make any costly "improvements" that would cut into the profits. Remember, this is an industry. Think of it as a mill and the kids going in are the grist.
How many moderators, here on fornits, are program supporters? How about administrators? If everyone voted today would you want my “opposing opinion?â€
-
Sorry to post this again.....
Nothing new, no new bar. They've always claimed to require proper licensing/accreditation - two very different things.
From 2005
http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/nat ... iples.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/natsapprinciples.html)
Highlight- 1.0 ADHERENCE TO STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS
The program/school shall adhere to all applicable state and federal laws in conducting the operation, including administration, hiring and employee practices, observance of safety regulations, and the care of program participants.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=88723#88723 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=88723#88723)
This has never been true. And they turn a blind eye when programs are shut down by the state and open with a new classification (private boarding school) to avoid further regulation.
"The new standards require our therapeutic programs and schools to maintain state licensure http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=252780#252780[/url]
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=214897#214897 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=214897#214897)
State Licensure OR Accreditation.
Scroll down the list of programs. That's the way it's always been. Some are licensed and the therapeutic aspect of the program is monitored by the state, fwiw. The academic component of some programs is reviewed by an Accrediting agency. A few have JCAHO accreditation. Some have nothing.
Yes, it has always been part of their makeup/structure but they have put it all together to make it clear to new schools that these are their requirements. Those schools that are breaking the laws are probably being dealt with. JCAHO doesn’t just drive over to the hospital the day after a patient dies of neglect and padlock the doors to the hospital. They spend months/years (sometimes behind closed doors) trying to help them resolve the issues and get back on track. Shutting stuff down doesn’t benefit anyone.
...
-
Zen wrote:
Yeah, but you post here freely and present an opposing view. There's no pro-industry forum that allows opposing views (right, ST?) Look over the board of directors of NATSAP again - not a very diverse group, absolutely no one to balance the opinions.. NATSAP has not progressed as a regulatory body, it only serves to represent the interests of the programs associated with it. It's become cliche, but NATSAP is "the fox guarding the hen house" and that's all. NATSAP's involvement in writing regulations is like asking the Mafia's suggestions on the Rico laws, or how to stop racketeering . NATSAP wants to maintain the status quo that's been in effect for over twenty years, they have no desire to make any costly "improvements" that would cut into the profits. Remember, this is an industry. Think of it as a mill and the kids going in are the grist.
How many moderators, here on fornits, are program supporters? How about administrators? If everyone voted today would you want my “opposing opinion?â€
-
Zen wrote:
How many moderators on StrugglingTeens are program survivors? How about administrators? No one's voting for or against you here, Who, the ban was lifted off you despite outcry. Yeah, you're well-aware people here despise you, but we can choose to ignore you or read you. Who voted to kick Psy off ST? No group decision there...
Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm. ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.
-
Zen wrote:
How many moderators on StrugglingTeens are program survivors? How about administrators? No one's voting for or against you here, Who, the ban was lifted off you despite outcry. Yeah, you're well-aware people here despise you, but we can choose to ignore you or read you. Who voted to kick Psy off ST? No group decision there...
Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm. ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.
I beg to differ. Unlike ST, you're allowed to present an opposing view. I can't even get to ST's forum, that's how uptight they are. Of course you have survivors at the helm here and programees running ST, but which forum is open to all?
Ginger has only attempted to curb one other poster, some guy with neo-Nazi leanings, apparently. You're annoying, who, but not on a racist level. You obviously don't care what people think of you, and you know your right to post won't be taken away. Cite an example of a pro-industry forum that grants the same privileges.
-
Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm. ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.
What a load of shit and you know it. There is no way in hell ST would tolerate opposing views. They've proven that over and over. Even to the point that they close the entire forum in order to prevent dissension in the ranks.
You and one other person are the only ones I know of that have ever been banned from Fornits and the other was a program survivor and vehement anti-program advocate. Both of you have been allowed back in and there's little chance of you being banned again, despite the crap you spew out here daily, shilling for Aspen. Making sure relevant information gets buried or sidetracked. You're STILL here despite all that. No way in HELL that would ever happen on ST.
-
Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm. ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.
What a load of shit and you know it. There is no way in hell ST would tolerate opposing views. They've proven that over and over. Even to the point that they close the entire forum in order to prevent dissension in the ranks.
You and one other person are the only ones I know of that have ever been banned from Fornits and the other was a program survivor and vehement anti-program advocate. Both of you have been allowed back in and there's little chance of you being banned again, despite the crap you spew out here daily, shilling for Aspen. Making sure relevant information gets buried or sidetracked. You're STILL here despite all that. No way in HELL that would ever happen on ST.
You seem really pissed off by me being here and I tolerate people like you who assume what other people stand for and dont wish you to be banned either and would not if I was in charge, but, We are taking about oversight and who is running organizations.
NATSAP is run by Program owners/admins
ST by program supporters
Fornits by survivors.
-
Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm. ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.
What a load of shit and you know it. There is no way in hell ST would tolerate opposing views. They've proven that over and over. Even to the point that they close the entire forum in order to prevent dissension in the ranks.
You and one other person are the only ones I know of that have ever been banned from Fornits and the other was a program survivor and vehement anti-program advocate. Both of you have been allowed back in and there's little chance of you being banned again, despite the crap you spew out here daily, shilling for Aspen. Making sure relevant information gets buried or sidetracked. You're STILL here despite all that. No way in HELL that would ever happen on ST.
You seem really pissed off by me being here and I tolerate people like you who assume what other people stand for and dont wish you to be banned either and would not if I was in charge, but, We are taking about oversight and who is running organizations.
NATSAP is run by Program owners/admins
ST by program supporters
Fornits by survivors.
Don't dodge me, Sullie. I'm not disturbed by your presence here. We agree on who oversees the above operations, and no one is surprised - this is a volatile issue, lines are clearly drawn. Answer my question - which is the more open forum for discussion, ST or Fornits?
You became less annoying to me when your agenda became clear, Sullie. You're a profiteer with no real concern in this debate other than turning a profit,
-
You became less annoying to me when your agenda became clear, Sullie. You're a profiteer with no real concern in this debate other than turning a profit,
Ahhh, now there you go again with your assumptions...if you feel so strongly that I am making a profit it is because you are making one yourself...is some rich survivor paying you to flood this forum with anti PV/program propaganda? Just because you have a price doesn’t mean everyone does.
I am interested in helping parents make the right choice for their children and cut thru some of this bias and bs here. People who clog up this forum with personal vendettas against programs are only serving themselves and their time and effort does not benefit any of the kids...
Fornits is the most open forum I have ever seen.
-
You seem really pissed off by me being here
Nah, you're a mere annoyance. And you actually provide a valuable reference for 'our side'. You make such an ass out of yourself and your attempts at derision, deflection and all your smoke and mirrors, moving goalposts, cherry picking and the fact that you can't seem to tear yourself away show that we're having an effect. What we're doing is working. Slowly perhaps, but its working. Your presence here confirms that.
and I tolerate people like you who assume what other people stand for and dont wish you to be banned either and would not if I was in charge, but,
I never said I wished you to be banned. I could care less.
We are taking about oversight and who is running organizations.
NATSAP is run by Program owners/admins
ST by program supporters
Fornits by survivors.
Yes that's true, but NATSAP and ST wouldn't tolerate dissent or criticism of their programs. As soon as an opponent really gets into it and starts making a helluva lot of sense, that's it. Conversation over. That doesn't happen here. Never has, never will. Big difference. BIG.
-
You became less annoying to me when your agenda became clear, Sullie. You're a profiteer with no real concern in this debate other than turning a profit,
Ahhh, now there you go again with your assumptions...if you feel so strongly that I am making a profit it is because you are making one yourself...is some rich survivor paying you to flood this forum with anti PV/program propaganda? Just because you have a price doesn’t mean everyone does.
I am interested in helping parents make the right choice for their children and cut thru some of this bias and bs here. People who clog up this forum with personal vendettas against programs are only serving themselves and their time and effort does not benefit any of the kids...
Fornits is the most open forum I have ever seen.
I have no idea if your story about your daughter is true or not. Maybe, but its irrelevant anymore. Its my belief that you, or someone connected to you has a financial interest in Aspen Ed.
-
Ahhh, now there you go again with your assumptions...if you feel so strongly that I am making a profit it is because you are making one yourself...is some rich survivor paying you to flood this forum with anti PV/program propaganda?
That[/i] is rich...
-
You became less annoying to me when your agenda became clear, Sullie. You're a profiteer with no real concern in this debate other than turning a profit,
Ahhh, now there you go again with your assumptions...if you feel so strongly that I am making a profit it is because you are making one yourself...is some rich survivor paying you to flood this forum with anti PV/program propaganda? Just because you have a price doesn’t mean everyone does.
Yeah, I'm lousy with cash because a rich PV survivor would rather pay me to rant on Fornits than use their wealth to hire a "dream team" to litigate. Who, there are people here who talk to me by phone regularly, and members of A START have met my family.
Don't confuse "assumption" with "deduction". I'm speculating based on your postings. Your daughter's ASR experience is a pretty thin story, lacking input from the girl herself. Motive seemed lacking in your desire to clear up BS. You posted about traveling in the Far East, remember? I asked if you were Gary Glitter (implying you were a pedophile enjoying the Pacific Rim's easy access to a plethora of perversion, which you didn't get), and you said you were on business in old Soviet Bloc countries, so I'm guessing you acquire from people desperate to sell, then seek a profit on your investment. I was applying the "look for those who stand to profit the most" theory, and concluded you've got financial interest in this outside of any specific program but concerned with some NATSAP program. Then again, you could be Lon Woodbury.
Really, Sullie, don't get all plinched-up about it. My price? No one could afford me, old son.
I am interested in helping parents make the right choice for their children and cut thru some of this bias and bs here. People who clog up this forum with personal vendettas against programs are only serving themselves and their time and effort does not benefit any of the kids...
Calm down and remember how many of these kids were abused in programs. Show some consideration for them and quit being so self-centered.
Read the description of "The Troubled Teen Industry", it doesn't look like the place parents are going to head for. Why do you accuse the posters here of "personal vendettas" and bias? They're trying to convey their experiences to other, and this is really about survivors and the industry, and for open-minded parents who want to see the side of the industry ST censors. I wouldn't consider their postings as serving nothing but to "clog up this forum". As I recall, the issue with you and Fornits was flooding, AKA clogging up the forum.
I guess you would be happy if they all shut up and went away? No, this is a forum for survivors to talk about what happened while they were in programs. Pick out the ones who seem to by lying and serving themselves, I'd be interested to see who you pick and your reasons.
Look at StrugglingTeens forum - I see precious few teens posting on there.
Fornits is the most open forum I have ever seen.
Your presence proves that, old man.
-
Zen wrote:
How many moderators on StrugglingTeens are program survivors? How about administrators? No one's voting for or against you here, Who, the ban was lifted off you despite outcry. Yeah, you're well-aware people here despise you, but we can choose to ignore you or read you. Who voted to kick Psy off ST? No group decision there...
Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm)
Not really. There is no hierarchy at all (even though ginger is techincally the owner of the site). Any excess pay for the donations we get (minus expenses) is split evenly among the three f-nuts who keep the site kicking.
ST with programs supporters at the helm. ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.
Fornits does not have rules concerning the content of what you can post. ST had rules, and I was not banned for breaking them. I was banned for the civil argument I made that offended nobody (but maybe Mose and Lon), but might have changed some minds.
Stop trying to act like fornits collectively wants to take the same ill-advised path that has been taken in the past by many. Most of us want the industry abolished, annihilated, razed, burned to the ground (maybe Bucci can lend a hand!) I don't even have the motivation to respond in detail as to why, I know it won't influence your opinion.
-
Zen wrote:
Who, there are people here who talk to me by phone regularly, and members of A START have met my family.
Little worried about your credibility?
I'm speculating
You are also derailing this thread, but I will take the hit for you.
Your daughter's ASR experience is a pretty thin story, lacking input from the girl herself.
So we can all doubt survivor stories?
Motive seemed lacking in your desire to clear up BS.
So it would help if I got defensive every time someone brought up my daughter.
You posted about traveling in the Far East, remember? I asked if you were Gary Glitter (implying you were a pedophile enjoying the Pacific Rim's easy access to a plethora of perversion, which you didn't get), and you said you were on business in old Soviet Bloc countries,
Sorry, I don’t know your friend glitter, not sure I want to. I was in southeast Asia.
and concluded you've got financial interest in this outside of any specific program but concerned with some NATSAP program. Then again, you could be Lon Woodbury.
No, but would denying it help, don’t think so, people are going to believe what they want.
Calm down and remember how many of these kids were abused in programs. Show some consideration for them and quit being so self-centered.
I have already shown that kids are much safer in a TBS than in the public sector, you may have some specific cases or schools but the data leans heavily in favor of the kids.
Read the description of "The Troubled Teen Industry", it doesn't look like the place parents are going to head for. Why do you accuse the posters here of "personal vendettas" and bias? They're trying to convey their experiences to other, and this is really about survivors and the industry, and for open-minded parents who want to see the side of the industry ST censors. I wouldn't consider their postings as serving nothing but to "clog up this forum". As I recall, the issue with you and Fornits was flooding, AKA clogging up the forum.
Speaking for other people?
I guess you would be happy if they all shut up and went away?
Speaking for me?
No, this is a forum for survivors to talk about what happened while they were in programs.
Really, you should look again, I don’t see any mention of that in the description…see the problem, Zen, is you only see what you want to see…you want to see me as a NATSAP person so I become one, you see this as a survivors only forum and it becomes that for you, you see a child abused in a program and they all become bad. See I am a little more open minded, I think all should be welcome to discuss here whether they are program parents, staff, industry leaders…not just survivors.
Your presence proves that, old man.
And yours too..and I am glad you are still allowed to post after dumping over 1,000 posts in this forum, welcome to the club (Smile)
-
Yeah, "dumped" over a 1000 posts and never banned once...thanks for respecting my views, E. You cry about feeling unwelcome, and yet you're too short-sighted to see it's not Fornits' fault - it's yours.
Oooh, you are getting touchy...
1. My credibility doesn't matter because it isn't an issue. Yours is.
2. God forbid I should derail a thread. That's normally your gig.
3. No, we don't doubt survivors. Wouldn't question your daughter in the slightest. Getting defensive about your daughter would almost make me feel for ya,
4. Kids in the public sector can at least run if there's trouble, and they're free to tell their parents about any abuse.
5. Dude! I read Fornits regularly! I know why you were banned! You've made it clear that you think this is a lot of bias and BS, so obviously you're saying there's a lot of lying going on. Yeah, I'll "speak for other people".
Really, Sullie, I know the description, and most parents considering an RTC aren't going to get past the discussion of "troubled parents" part. You've accused me of being "fixated " on PV, now I'm accused of condemning the whole industry...which I do.
What went on with PV is something I certainly did not want to see. You are far from open minded, you accuse the survivors of bias and vendettas. If Martin Anderson had survived his beating and made it to posting here about the abuse, you'd call him biased, too. Because of the deaths and lack of regulation, the industry has to be looked at as a whole...to try and sift out "good" from "bad" can't be done fast enough.
How many times do you have to be told??? Everyone IS welcome to discuss anything here, but be prepared to defend your views.
-
Little worried about your credibility?
Why would you say that?
You are also derailing this thread, but I will take the hit for you.
Liar.
I have already shown that kids are much safer in a TBS than in the public sector,
No you haven't. Ever.
…see the problem, Zen, is you only see what you want to see…you want to see me as a NATSAP person so I become one, you see this as a survivors only forum and it becomes that for you, you see a child abused in a program and they all become bad. See I am a little more open minded, I think all should be welcome to discuss here whether they are program parents, staff, industry leaders…not just survivors.
Why do you keep repeating this? The very fact that you are here, presenting your 'case' shows that its possible to do so. Not so with NATSAP or ST. This IS primarily for program survivors. All are welcome, but yes, we are mainly populated with anti-program opinions BUT........ that's very different from ST and NATSAP. WE are not "tolerated" there. YOU are HERE so quit acting so put upon and quit trying to compare ST or NATSAP to Fornits.
And yours too..and I am glad you are still allowed to post after dumping over 1,000 posts in this forum, welcome to the club (Smile)
No, again. This is primarily run for and by survivors. YOU are tolerated because Fornits believes in free speech. The same can't be said for pro-program sites. We aren't afraid to debate the issues with you. NATSAP and ST are terrified of having an open discussion with any of us. They can't do it.
-
Yeah, I'll "speak for other people".
Just wanted to point out that you are doing that.
You've accused me of being "fixated " on PV, now I'm accused of condemning the whole industry...which I do.
Its no longer an accusation if you fess up, thank you, thanks for admitting it.
Kids in the public sector can at least run if there's trouble, and they're free to tell their parents about any abuse.
Ditto for TBS’s (I think you are speaking about a specific school again….open your mind a little)…
You are far from open minded
I am able to see that the industry can do good and bad. I can step back and see both sides. Your open-mindedness has been damaged by your bad experience, don’t take experiences from one school and assume they are all that way, Since your friend Glitter had a bad experience in Southeast Asia doesn’t mean everyone does, you should travel more. Not everyone that opposes your point of view is being paid or owns a TBS, get over yourself, we just happen to be more experienced in how industry operates as a whole and judging by your approach, you don’t have a clue, knock yourself out!
I am not blaming you, maybe if my daughter had been harmed by her experience I would be spending all my time on a very small focus and seeing and judging the whole industry thru that one experience.
How many times do you have to be told??? Everyone IS welcome here to discuss anything, but be prepared to defend your views.
Let me read back what you stated: No, this is a forum for survivors to talk about what happened while they were in programs.
I say…you are just as welcome here as I am… Don’t think this forum is just for survivors…your presence does not upset me nor your narrow view. I welcome open discussion, especially if you disagree with me because it brings the issues to the surface.
-
You are without a doubt one of the biggest assholes I have ever come across.
-
Okay, I think we flamed enough here. Sorry, Zen (everyone) if it was me that got us off course. I think where we left off was a discussion on NATSAP and why the board consists of program people.
I compared this to any other industry where the industry leaders may form a committee to start regulation (of some type). Health care did this, boy scouts, auto unions etc. Because it makes sense and it follows that Fornits works better for the majority if the admins and mods are survivors or non- program people.
I realize some people take exception to this comparison, but it’s the way it works in all areas not just NATSAP. I think they are being unfairly judged.
-
Doesn't matter what initials you use to name it, it is a joke to have people overseeing the facilities they work in. NATSAP, TACCCA, FACCCA to name a few of these governing bodies that don't govern anything.
-
In Montana a group of program owners regulate the industry.
NATSAP was very much involved in that coming to fruition, and I predict they will assist or encourage programs in other states to advocate for the same.
NATSAP also influenced the regulations in Utah.
Apparently a few Montana programs, who weren't in the inner circle, aren't too happy about this. As is obvious, they could be put out of business by their competitors, as their competitiors are their regulators.
-
Okay, I think we flamed enough here. Sorry, Zen (everyone) if it was me that got us off course. I think where we left off was a discussion on NATSAP and why the board consists of program people.
I compared this to any other industry where the industry leaders may form a committee to start regulation (of some type). Health care did this, boy scouts, auto unions etc. Because it makes sense and it follows that Fornits works better for the majority if the admins and mods are survivors or non- program people.
I realize some people take exception to this comparison, but it’s the way it works in all areas not just NATSAP. I think they are being unfairly judged.
My view isn't narrow, and I'm not trying to change minds, just draw attention to the issue - attention is the one thing abusive programs don't want. Why would my knowledge of the industry be less than yours? Rather smug "assumption", dude.
Your "My way is right, you're all close-minded" approach is what alienates you here, and the pissy rejoinders when you get yer nose out of joint.
How many RTC's do you have experience with, who? How many times do you think someone should keep throwing a kid back into RTC's when there's a bad experience. Tell me, E, with your vast knowledge of good and evil, wrong and right, what programs are you aware of that are completely safe? Name those, and give me the dark side next: which ones are the black holes of the industry.
Surely you know, otherwise you really can't back your defense of the industry as good with bad spots. You need to clearly identify the programs you'll back as safe and therapeutic.
As for me, first-hand knowledge of one RTC is enough. I can't imagine the trauma of pulling a child out of PV and putting them in another pit.
If all you want is a platform where people will praise your views, try ST, those sycophants will proclaim you the Chosen One. If you want to discuss the industry with both sides, try StrugglingPeople - http://www.freepowerboards.com/strugglingppl/index.php (http://www.freepowerboards.com/strugglingppl/index.php). The admins are a mixed group, which you want. No flaming is allowed. You have my personal promise that I'll vote to ban anyone who flames you, even if it's me.
-
Who, I think you're going to have to quit your day time job my friend! These guys are pretty demanding, always wanting your time, and attention! Prove this, prove that! Then when you do take the time to do it, they ask you the same damn question again, and again, and again. We want proof they say! You give it to them, and they do not accept it!
What's up with them? Are they nuts or what?!! I just pray that when the 2008 elections come around they'll have something else to eat up their time.
-
In Montana a group of program owners regulate the industry.
NATSAP was very much involved in that coming to fruition, and I predict they will assist or encourage programs in other states to advocate for the same.
NATSAP also influenced the regulations in Utah.
Apparently a few Montana programs, who weren't in the inner circle, aren't too happy about this. As is obvious, they could be put out of business by their competitors, as their competitiors are their regulators.
Sure, get these committees going!! form large committees to oversee the smaller ones and then eventually form a joint commission to tie it in with government regulation. This commission can eventually be boarded by non- program owners. Some will be voted off in favor of more therapeutic types, child advocates, child psychologists, .... the commission can grow some teeth (close the bad schools down) and start advocating for the kids and standardizing care and admission requirements, "family first" policies etc.
But right now an advocacy group cant even get in the door or have a voice..... NATSAP is doing the right thing, they are building a platform which will be handed over someday to people who dont have a conflict of interest. They are heading in the same direction as fornits, (except for those individuals who want to shut down every school) just on a different path and a much slower one unfortunately.
-
Who, I think you're going to have to quit your day time job my friend! These guys are pretty demanding, always wanting your time, and attention! Prove this, prove that! Then when you do take the time to do it, they ask you the same damn question again, and again, and again. We want proof they say! You give it to them, and they do not accept it!
What's up with them? Are they nuts or what?!! I just pray that when the 2008 elections come around they'll have something else to eat up their time.
Just want to know the good programs and the bad. E. obviously considers us too narrow minded to have a clue about the safe programs, and since he wants to clean up the bias and BS around here, that would be a good start. This is what he says he CAME to Fornits to do, so drop science on us, E-spot.
I sit at your feet in rapt attention, waiting for enlightenment. Share the wisdom, so that we might go out and be thy disciples.
CCM girl? Who are you? Unfamiliar with you. Referring to people with mental health issues and addictions who were abused in RTC's as possible "nuts" kinda shows where you're coming from, though.[/i]
-
Who, I think you're going to have to quit your day time job my friend! These guys are pretty demanding, always wanting your time, and attention! Prove this, prove that! Then when you do take the time to do it, they ask you the same damn question again, and again, and again. We want proof they say! You give it to them, and they do not accept it!
What's up with them? Are they nuts or what?!! I just pray that when the 2008 elections come around they'll have something else to eat up their time.
Ha,Ha... yea, you have been reading!!! I had to call in sick today so I could respond to everyone, whats up with everyone today?
Oh, wait a minute, this is my job.
-
Who, I think you're going to have to quit your day time job my friend! These guys are pretty demanding, always wanting your time, and attention! Prove this, prove that! Then when you do take the time to do it, they ask you the same damn question again, and again, and again. We want proof they say! You give it to them, and they do not accept it!
What's up with them? Are they nuts or what?!! I just pray that when the 2008 elections come around they'll have something else to eat up their time.
Ha,Ha... yea, you have been reading!!! I had to call in sick today so I could respond to everyone, whats up with everyone today?
We love you, E., ya big chicken-brained, crotch-grabbing baboon. The time we spend palavering is priceless to me.
I thank the Lord and Jimmy Swaggart for people like you, Sullie.
-
Any true believer in Zen who thanks the lord in a time of hardship can’t be trusted with their word. I think that is a new low for you.
Hmmm.. Confucius says? Ha,Ha, I just went back and read a few of the past posts....... Seems we are trading insults, how professional.
-
Okay lets get back on track, Deb brought up a good point:
In Montana a group of program owners regulate the industry.
NATSAP was very much involved in that coming to fruition, and I predict they will assist or encourage programs in other states to advocate for the same.
NATSAP also influenced the regulations in Utah.
Apparently a few Montana programs, who weren't in the inner circle, aren't too happy about this. As is obvious, they could be put out of business by their competitors, as their competitiors are their regulators.
Sure, get these committees going!! form large committees to oversee the smaller ones and then eventually form a joint commission to tie it in with government regulation. This commission can eventually be boarded by non- program owners. Some will be voted off in favor of more therapeutic types, child advocates, child psychologists, .... the commission can grow some teeth (close the bad schools down) and start advocating for the kids and standardizing care and admission requirements, "family first" policies etc.
But right now an advocacy group cant even get in the door or have a voice..... NATSAP is doing the right thing, they are building a platform which will be handed over someday to people who dont have a conflict of interest. They are heading in the same direction as fornits, (except for those individuals who want to shut down every school) just on a different path and a much slower one unfortunately.
-
Any true believer in Zen who thanks the lord in a time of hardship can’t be trusted with their word. I think that is a new low for you.
Hmmm.. Confucius says? Ha,Ha, I just went back and read a few of the past posts....... Seems we are trading insults, how professional.
That was pretty funny! Thank you for giving me a laugh today.
-
Zen,
I will be in your neck of the woods come Thursday! Should I come pay you a visit? You have to admit there are some of you who act totally nuts on here, and that's just stating the obvious. Sorry if you took it personally. When I come to visit you what should I look for on your forehead? What will Deb have you tattooed with?
CCM girl
-
Zen,
I will be in your neck of the woods come Thursday! Should I come pay you a visit? You have to admit there are some of you who act totally nuts on here, and that's just stating the obvious. Sorry if you took it personally. When I come to visit you what should I look for on your forehead? What will Deb have you tattooed with?
CCM girl
ARE YOU THREATENING ME?
I hope you haven't a clue as to my "neck of the woods". You come near the compound and I'll be forced to unleash the hounds. Get past the dogs, and I'll use the Rumbler - this gadget emits an ultra-low frequency that causes everyone within the area of a city block to spontaneously evacuate their bowels.
Don't come near the compound.
-
Any true believer in Zen who thanks the lord in a time of hardship can’t be trusted with their word. I think that is a new low for you.
Hmmm.. Confucius says? Ha,Ha, I just went back and read a few of the past posts....... Seems we are trading insults, how professional.
I don't embrace any single religion, I only extract the good parts from the many. Christianity yielded zilch on that score. You've never said anything about the quote from the Koran in my signature, is that in conflict with the religious views you're imposing on me?
You could google Zen Agent and find some irony in my choosing it as a name.
-
No threat at all Zen! Just wanted to meet you face to face. I have to admit I get a little curious from time to time who is really behind all these posts.
Not only that, but it's so easy to talk shit to people online, and not to their face. I want to see what kind of person you really are!
So, I am taking that as a no, that there will be no face to face.
Boo-hoo, I tried!
-
I most respectfully request a reply, E.
Just want to know the good programs and the bad. E. obviously considers us too narrow minded to have a clue about the safe programs, and since he wants to clean up the bias and BS around here, that would be a good start. This is what he says he CAME to Fornits to do, so drop science on us, E-spot.
I sit at your feet in rapt attention, waiting for enlightenment. Share the wisdom, so that we might go out and be thy disciples.
Can you run down the good, the bad, and the ugly of programs for me? If you share your knowledge of programs you could end all this silly talk in D.C.
-
No threat at all Zen! Just wanted to meet you face to face. I have to admit I get a little curious from time to time who is really behind all these posts.
Not only that, but it's so easy to talk shit to people online, and not to their face. I want to see what kind of person you really are!
So, I am taking that as a no, that there will be no face to face.
Boo-hoo, I tried!
To the best of my knowledge, I've never talked to you at all, "shit" or pleasantries. Unless you were an anon. You seem to have more of an opinion formed of me than I do of you, because I honestly don't remember any exchanges between us.
Fine, where will you be? No need to cry.
-
I'll be near Nashville, PM me, and we will iron out the details.
-
I most respectfully request a reply, E.
Just want to know the good programs and the bad. E. obviously considers us too narrow minded to have a clue about the safe programs, and since he wants to clean up the bias and BS around here, that would be a good start. This is what he says he CAME to Fornits to do, so drop science on us, E-spot.
I sit at your feet in rapt attention, waiting for enlightenment. Share the wisdom, so that we might go out and be thy disciples.
Can you run down the good, the bad, and the ugly of programs for me? If you share your knowledge of programs you could end all this silly talk in D.C.
Well, lets see, what I would consider a good program would be ones like ASR or a wilderness like SUWS some of the bad ones would be straight, the one in Samoa, maybe seems to not have the best practices.
-
I most respectfully request a reply, E.
Just want to know the good programs and the bad. E. obviously considers us too narrow minded to have a clue about the safe programs, and since he wants to clean up the bias and BS around here, that would be a good start. This is what he says he CAME to Fornits to do, so drop science on us, E-spot.
I sit at your feet in rapt attention, waiting for enlightenment. Share the wisdom, so that we might go out and be thy disciples.
Can you run down the good, the bad, and the ugly of programs for me? If you share your knowledge of programs you could end all this silly talk in D.C.
Well, lets see, what I would consider a good program would be ones like ASR or a wilderness like SUWS
You gotta be kidding me...that's the extent of the "safe" programs you know of? You make some bold claims for the industry and only give lukewarm support to ASR and SUWS? They've had some complaints, as I recall. Not all kids are a good "fit" - is that the program jargon?
some of the bad ones would be straight, the one in Samoa, maybe seems to not have the best practices.
Huh...never mock my knowledge of programs again...do you mean Paradise Cove, Samoa? It's WWASP, not straight, and it's shut down. There was New Hope Academy, and Pacific Coast Academy, both Steve Cartisano joints - heard of him? Long gone. Do you really think Straight, inc. is currently operating under that identity?
I am disappointed. I thought I would get an informed response, or an honest "I don't really know".
-
No, just an example..... how about yourself, you have examples of the good, bad and the ugly?
-
also, did anyone see this????? http://http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1009617&page=1 It's a 2005 article that has been brought back to the top of google under troubled teens.
Disturbing article!
I don't even know if I can wrap my head around that ABC article.
Thoughts from you , Mummie?
-DP
-
No, just an example..... how about yourself, you have examples of the good, bad and the ugly?
You know my position, E. Raze them all and learn from the mistakes that led to too many dead and damaged kids. We owe as much to the victims.
I will give a thumbs up to Sheppard Pratt in Baltimore, MD, but their facility is acute care, time definitive, and kids have to enter voluntarily.
My step daughter wanted to return there for a breather and some de-pressurizing therapy after PV.
Seriously, you should pick active abusive programs or the recently overturned. it looks bad when you don't know the current programs operating.
-
No, just an example..... how about yourself, you have examples of the good, bad and the ugly?
You know my position, E. Raze them all and learn from the mistakes that led to too many dead and damaged kids. We owe as much to the victims.
I will give a thumbs up to Sheppard Pratt in Baltimore, MD, but their facility is acute care, time definitive, and kids have to enter voluntarily.
My step daughter wanted to return there for a breather and some de-pressurizing therapy after PV.
Seriously, you should pick active abusive programs or the recently overturned. it looks bad when you don't know the current programs operating.
Raze them all, he says, Ha,Ha, Correct, my boy..... smart as a whip that one is, fornits is proud of you, you have been taught well. Sorry I knew the answer, but I like hearing it....because in a little while someone will ask "Who, why are you here?" and I will reply something like..."To add balance to the discussion"... to which will be a reply...."but we are all open minded and speak our own mind we dont need a balanced viewpoint here on fornits, we have it all figured out".
I realize you dont think it is funny because you are part of it and you dont see the stock responses and positioning that goes on, I am not laughing at you but at the pure irony of the preformed responses..... sometimes you create what you are fighting against.
-
The real irony is you're laughing at my comment about razing them all and completely ignoring what I said about Sheppard Pratt. I gave you a model for an acceptable form of treatment, but you "only see what you want to see".
Don't be snidey, E-Spot, you need to do a little more research on Straight, inc. Learn it's history, and learn the difference between Straight and WWASP.
Wait...you got "Miller" and "Newton" jumbled up on the GAO thread, and made some lame reference to beer and fig newtons. You must have some idea of Straight.
Wow...this is like "The Punk And The Godfather"...Program survivors meeting the abrasive, industry-hustling ultimate yuppie sellout. Ain't you the guy who used to set the paces?
-
No, just an example..... how about yourself, you have examples of the good, bad and the ugly?
You know my position, E. Raze them all and learn from the mistakes that led to too many dead and damaged kids. We owe as much to the victims.
I will give a thumbs up to Sheppard Pratt in Baltimore, MD, but their facility is acute care, time definitive, and kids have to enter voluntarily.
My step daughter wanted to return there for a breather and some de-pressurizing therapy after PV.
Seriously, you should pick active abusive programs or the recently overturned. it looks bad when you don't know the current programs operating.
Raze them all, he says, Ha,Ha, Correct, my boy..... smart as a whip that one is, fornits is proud of you, you have been taught well. Sorry I knew the answer, but I like hearing it....because in a little while someone will ask "Who, why are you here?" and I will reply something like..."To add balance to the discussion"... to which will be a reply...."but we are all open minded and speak our own mind we dont need a balanced viewpoint here on fornits, we have it all figured out".
I have explained again and again to many different people in detail precisely the reasons why I feel this industry should be abolished. As far as why you're here, it's to shift the discussion in another direction by any means possible. If you call that "balancing", then I suppose you are accurate; however, wise readers will question your motives for wanting to do that.
I realize you dont think it is funny because you are part of it and you dont see the stock responses and positioning that goes on, I am not laughing at you but at the pure irony of the preformed responses..... sometimes you create what you are fighting against.
I see your reasoning (and how it can be percieved the way you describe), but your judgement of the way people think around here is simply not accrate at all. Just because a person has a certain belief doesn't mean that he/she didn't go through a reasoning process ot get to that belief. Certain people come to the same conclusion, it doens't mean that any opinions they come to are byproducts of groupthink.
-
As much as I piss off, threaten, and scare everyone else here...
I'd just like to let you know my thoughts are my own and completely parallel to anyone else's. We're talking about the same thing and see the same data, so there will be some overlap, but there is no group think. We're not here to fit in with other advocates. We're here because we're pissed the fuck off and sick of excuses to keep around un-necessary, useless, harmful quackery with no justification except declarations with no basis from people with vested interests in them.
Oh, and to say nigger so you call me racist. (http://http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4281/niggerniggerniggerqm7.jpg)
-
Well, lets see, what I would consider a good program would be ones like ASR or a wilderness like SUWS some of the bad ones would be straight, the one in Samoa, maybe seems to not have the best practices.
ASR? This ASR?
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=15260&start=360 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=15260&start=360)
SUWS? This SUWS?
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... =northstar (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=23141&highlight=northstar)
Isn't Northstar Expeditions part of SUWS? I could be wrong.
http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html (http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html)
Loving Them to Death
It's the "wilderness experience" at its most extreme--rehabilitation of wayward teenagers delivered with the in-your-face discipline of a boot camp. But in the past five years at least four young people have died, the victims of alleged beatings, starvation, and emotional abuse, and the so-called therapy is looking more like murder.
By Jon Krakauer
The long-distance connection was good, but as Sally Bacon stood in her Phoenix kitchen, she couldn't make sense of what she was hearing. A month before, she'd sent her 16-year-old son, Aaron, to a Utah wilderness school called North Star Expeditions. Now a disembodied voice from North Star was telling her, "Aaron is down. We can't get a pulse."
"What does that mean, you can't get a pulse?"
"Aaron's been airlifted to the hospital in Page, Arizona," came the reply. "Call your husband. He's been given the hospital phone number." Sally frantically dialed Bob Bacon at his office. Sounding numb, he repeated what he knew: Aaron had collapsed in the desert. It was a freak accident. There was nothing anyone could do. Their son was dead.
On March 1, 1994, the Bacons had enrolled Aaron in a 63-day North Star course conducted in the sandstone badlands of southern Utah, near Escalante. Tall and skinny, with shoulder-length hair, Aaron was a funny, articulate kid who wrote prizewinning poetry and excelled academically. But early in his sophomore year at Phoenix's Central High School, he started smoking pot every day and ditching classes. His grades plummeted. In February of 1994, he was jumped in the school parking lot by members of a gang known as the Crips. Although he vehemently denied any gang involvement, witnesses reported that the Crips acted like they knew him well.
"That really scared us," says Sally, who worried that the beating involved a drug deal. "Aaron seemed to be caught in a big downhill spiral."
From a friend of a friend, Sally had heard about a company called North Star Expeditions, whose adolescent-treatment program was based on an increasingly popular regimen known as wilderness therapy: a blend of intensive counseling, enforced discipline, and spartan hikes through the desert. "Students at North Star...learn that Mother Nature does not make exceptions," explained the outfit's brochure. "They learn responsibility, self-discipline, and motivation."
Tuition was $13,900 for a 63-day course, plus another $775 to have Aaron forcibly "escorted" to Escalante--something North Star strongly recommended. Bob's architecture firm, once prosperous, had lately been teetering on the brink of insolvency, and the Bacons no longer had that kind of cash. But, says Sally, after talking to several parents whose kids had been helped by the program, "We were given a lot of hope that North Star was going to build Aaron's self-esteem. I knew it would be rigorous, but I pictured him out there with God and nature, hiking all day, discussing his issues with therapists around the campfire at night."
Still, the Bacons had concerns, which they expressed during a long meeting at a Phoenix hotel with Lance and Barbara Jaggar, two of North Star's owners. "I was worried because Aaron was very, very thin," says Sally, "but Barbara assured me, 'Oh, we would never let any of our students lose weight.'"
Bob cautioned that Aaron didn't respond well to intimidation. "Don't worry," insisted Lance, a 280-pound former military policeman with a neck like a fire hydrant. "I have a special gift for working with kids. They really open up to me." Convinced, Sally and Bob took out a second mortgage to pay the tuition and, without telling Aaron, signed him up.
At 6 a.m. on March 1, Aaron awoke to the sight of his father walking into his bedroom with Lance Jaggar and Jaggar's brother-in-law, Don Burkhart. Taking Aaron's arm in his meaty grip, Jaggar announced, "You're coming with me. If I detect any resistance, I'll assume you are trying to get away, and I'll take the appropriate action. Do I make myself clear?"
As Aaron was led out of the house barefoot, Sally tried to hug her terrified son, but Jaggar wouldn't release Aaron's arms. Trying not to cry, she took his face in her hands and declared, "I love you. I don't want you to be afraid. This is what's best." Jaggar then hustled the boy outside, drove to the airport, and flew him to Escalante in a single-engine Cessna.
Over the next month, Sally called frequently to see how Aaron was doing. The news wasn't encouraging. Her son, said North Star spokeswoman Daryl Bartholomew, was "belligerent and a whiner," and the other kids resented him. During a long conversation on March 30, Bartholomew informed Sally that Aaron's attitude was so bad he'd probably have to repeat the program.
Twenty-four hours later, Aaron was dead. According to the autopsy, the cause was acute peritonitis resulting from a perforated ulcer. The contents of Aaron's gastrointestinal tract had leaked through two holes in his small intestine, spreading a massive infection throughout his abdominal cavity. North Star explained that the ailment had surfaced so suddenly that heroic efforts by its field staff and an emergency medical helicopter were futile. Preliminary reports from the Garfield County sheriff's office seemed to confirm North Star's contention that the death was an unavoidable accident.
The Bacons' grief was compounded by guilt over the fact that they'd never had an opportunity to explain to Aaron why they sent him to North Star. "After Aaron died," says Sally, "all I wanted was to get his body back. I wanted to hold him and say good-bye. I wanted a chance to apologize."
But with the arrival of his remains at a Phoenix mortuary three days later, guilt gave way to anger. Pulling the sheet from Aaron's body, Sally was confronted with a battered, emaciated corpse. She started screaming hysterically and had to cover her eyes. "His legs were like toothpicks," Sally recalls, breaking into sobs. "His hipbones stuck way out, his ribs--he looked like a concentration-camp victim. There were bruises from the tip of his toes to the top of his head, open sores up and down the inside of his thighs. The only way we were even able to recognize him was a childhood scar above his right eye."
"Right then it became obvious that Aaron's death was not an accident," Bob Bacon says. "We knew that something horrible had been done to him."
article continued
-
I could be wrong.
yes, you are mistaken... The SUWS I spoke of is in North Carolina and your story was of a different wilderness 2 decades ago.
-
] I have explained again and again to many different people in detail precisely the reasons why I feel this industry should be abolished. As far as why you're here, it's to shift the discussion in another direction by any means possible. If you call that "balancing", then I suppose you are accurate; however, wise readers will question your motives for wanting to do that.
You have made it clear that you want to see all the schools closed down, but what I don’t understand is why people gloss over or ignore the thousands of kids who benefit from attending these schools and what the plan is if all these schools were closed tomorrow. Just ignore their problems? Allow the suicide rate to soar? Let them to live on the streets? Put their brothers and sisters in danger?.........
Many of these children have exhausted local service options and a therapeutic school where they can grow in a safe environment and get back on track is their only option left.
As far as shifting the discussion, if you read back, you will notice it was I who kept bring the discussion back on track.
I see your reasoning (and how it can be percieved the way you describe), but your judgement of the way people think around here is simply not accrate at all. Just because a person has a certain belief doesn't mean that he/she didn't go through a reasoning process ot get to that belief. Certain people come to the same conclusion, it doens't mean that any opinions they come to are byproducts of groupthink.
I understand, I was taking advantage of an opportunity to point out a few things…. Parents come here and read : “All the schools are the sameâ€
-
Hmm, maybe I was thinking of this one. The deaths are starting to add up and I do get them confused sometimes. Pardon me.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21541 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21541)
AAA was already "featured" in brat camp the british version which involved only girls.
-One girl was subject to "pain compliance" for over 2 hrs. This involved staff twisting both her wrists
-One girl got sat on in a restraint and had her arm twisted up her back
-One girl was still not allowed to eat cooked food after about 2 weeks in spite of being completely compliant, even enthusiastic. This was because she did nto master the art of fire making
-The girls were strip searched
-The girls were allowed to "confront" a difficult girl until she started cutting herself & the therapist was called
-One staff member told an already angry girl to hit him repeatedly till she did. He then restrained her.
-One girl who took a lot of speed exhibited withdrawral symptoms which included flu like symptoms. At no point did they decide that a proper medically supervised drug rehab was better
I cant imagine what they failed to show!!!!
http://isaccorp.org/documentsam.asp#aaa (http://isaccorp.org/documentsam.asp#aaa)
Child Attempts Suicide at Aspen Achievement Academy
Salt Lake Tribune
Police Brief
October 20, 1993
Suicide Attempt:
A 14-year-old Chicago boy in a wilderness program for at-risk youths tried to kill himself by jumping off a cliff Tuesday.
The boy fractured several bones and suffered head injuries when he fell 75 feet in the Henry Mountains, about 20 miles southwest of Hanksville.
He was listed in serious condition at Castleview Hospital in Price, said a hospital spokeswoman.
The boy asked to go to the bathroom after eating and jumped off a cliff.
The youth was enrolled in the Aspen Achievement Academy, a two-month wilderness program for troubled teens.
Program authorities knew the boy was suicidal and were watching him constantly, said program coordinator Tim Marshall.
There were six other youths camping with the victim when the incident occurred.
It took about two hours for Wayne County sheriff's rescuers to retrieve the boy from the mountain.
-
I could be wrong.
yes, you are mistaken... The SUWS I spoke of is in North Carolina and your story was of a different wilderness 2 decades ago.
Does the SUWS in NC use the level system? Do they use Discovery Seminars or LifeSteps or LGATs or the like?
-
At SUWS there were no large groups at all, groups of 5 or 6 as I remember, it was a great experience for my daughter…got her out of the rut she was in at home into a wilderness setting where she was challenged, learned to build a fire from scratch, organize and be responsible for her own clothes,food, shelter. She got to experience what it was like to have to rely on herself and others in a group situation.
After a few weeks all the parents headed up the trail to find the kids and when I saw my daughter coming around the corner with that big smile on her face!!.... and she looked so healthy!!.... all the color in her cheeks!!!.... we headed back down the mountain and we all spent the night in the woods with our kids in control (Help!!!!) She built the shelter, made dinner, built the fire and we spent the night talking about her experiences… one of the best decisions we ever made.
-
At SUWS there were no large groups at all, groups of 5 or 6 as I remember, it was a great experience for my daughter…got her out of the rut she was in at home into a wilderness setting where she was challenged, learned to build a fire from scratch, organize and be responsible for her own clothes,food, shelter. She got to experience what it was like to have to rely on herself and others in a group situation.
After a few weeks all the parents headed up the trail to find the kids and when I saw my daughter coming around the corner with that big smile on her face!!.... and she looked so healthy!!.... all the color in her cheeks!!!.... we headed back down the mountain and we all spent the night in the woods with our kids in control (Help!!!!) She built the shelter, made dinner, built the fire and we spent the night talking about her experiences… one of the best decisions we ever made.
You know Who, it's so funny! Here you are on this thread explaining to them how your daughter had benefited from her experience in her program. I'm on the other thread discussing Heritage, and what a good experience I had. Nobody really wants to listen, all they want to do is say all programs are bad, they all need to be shut down, and how screwed up we are for thinking differently from them!
What's up with that?!!
-
After a few weeks all the parents headed up the trail to find the kids and when I saw my daughter coming around the corner with that big smile on her face!!.... and she looked so healthy!!.... all the color in her cheeks!!!.... we headed back down the mountain and we all spent the night in the woods with our kids in control (Help!!!!) She built the shelter, made dinner, built the fire and we spent the night talking about her experiences… one of the best decisions we ever made.
Oh God, the sugar content in that post is causing diabetes all around, you melodramatic Spam.
Do you make late night infomercials? You got the spiel down, Shatner.
-
At SUWS there were no large groups at all, groups of 5 or 6 as I remember, it was a great experience for my daughter…got her out of the rut she was in at home into a wilderness setting where she was challenged, learned to build a fire from scratch, organize and be responsible for her own clothes,food, shelter. She got to experience what it was like to have to rely on herself and others in a group situation.
After a few weeks all the parents headed up the trail to find the kids and when I saw my daughter coming around the corner with that big smile on her face!!.... and she looked so healthy!!.... all the color in her cheeks!!!.... we headed back down the mountain and we all spent the night in the woods with our kids in control (Help!!!!) She built the shelter, made dinner, built the fire and we spent the night talking about her experiences… one of the best decisions we ever made.
You know Who, it's so funny! Here you are on this thread explaining to them how your daughter had benefited from her experience in her program. I'm on the other thread discussing Heritage, and what a good experience I had. Nobody really wants to listen, all they want to do is say all programs are bad, they all need to be shut down, and how screwed up we are for thinking differently from them!
What's up with that?!!
Yes I know it is like you and I were not invited to the quarterly fornits LGAT seminars for "How all programs are the same" & "How to define or preceive the program parents psyche"
If we both logged on and told stories of abuse our accounts would be welcome with no questions to the validity of our stories.
Ha,Ha, See the above post, by Zen....perfect timing.
-
After a few weeks all the parents headed up the trail to find the kids and when I saw my daughter coming around the corner with that big smile on her face!!.... and she looked so healthy!!.... all the color in her cheeks!!!.... we headed back down the mountain and we all spent the night in the woods with our kids in control (Help!!!!) She built the shelter, made dinner, built the fire and we spent the night talking about her experiences… one of the best decisions we ever made.
Oh God, the sugar content in that post is causing diabetes all around, you melodramatic Spam.
Do you make late night infomercials? You got the spiel down, Shatner.
Oh, come on, tell me you didnt feel good when your step daughter did well at Sheppard Pratt .... you couldnt help but be proud of her and the turn around that occured. For a parent to see their own son or daughter come so far in such a short time, when just a few weeks ago they lacked total self esteem and were heading down a direr path you would stop in you tracks yourself and relish the moment and it would become one of the highlights of your life...I gaurentee you.
-
After a few weeks all the parents headed up the trail to find the kids and when I saw my daughter coming around the corner with that big smile on her face!!.... and she looked so healthy!!.... all the color in her cheeks!!!.... we headed back down the mountain and we all spent the night in the woods with our kids in control (Help!!!!) She built the shelter, made dinner, built the fire and we spent the night talking about her experiences… one of the best decisions we ever made.
Oh God, the sugar content in that post is causing diabetes all around, you melodramatic Spam.
Do you make late night infomercials? You got the spiel down, Shatner.
Oh, come on, tell me you didnt feel good when your step daughter did well at Sheppard Pratt .... you couldnt help but be proud of her and the turn around that occured. For a parent to see their own son or daughter come so far in such a short time, when just a few weeks ago they lacked total self esteem and were heading down a direr path you would stop in you tracks yourself and relish the moment and it would become one of the highlights of your life...I gaurentee you.
This is way off topic and getting a little personal. The sad story of the girl who was transported from SP to PV is well known on this forum.
Now, what about Keith Russell? Is he a well known figure in Wilderness Therapy?
During my well documented work-out session with the Director of the Girls Continuum (now Director of Clinical Services) at PV, I asked what they based their self proclaimed "high success" rates on.
"OUTCOME STUDIES"
"Which Outcome Studies? The studies done by Keith Russell?"
And the now famous response... WHY ARE YOU ASKING SO MANY QUESTIONS?
-
After a few weeks all the parents headed up the trail to find the kids and when I saw my daughter coming around the corner with that big smile on her face!!.... and she looked so healthy!!.... all the color in her cheeks!!!.... we headed back down the mountain and we all spent the night in the woods with our kids in control (Help!!!!) She built the shelter, made dinner, built the fire and we spent the night talking about her experiences… one of the best decisions we ever made.
Oh God, the sugar content in that post is causing diabetes all around, you melodramatic Spam.
Do you make late night infomercials? You got the spiel down, Shatner.
Oh, come on, tell me you didnt feel good when your step daughter did well at Sheppard Pratt .... you couldnt help but be proud of her and the turn around that occured. For a parent to see their own son or daughter come so far in such a short time, when just a few weeks ago they lacked total self esteem and were heading down a direr path you would stop in you tracks yourself and relish the moment and it would become one of the highlights of your life...I gaurentee you.
"Guarantee". Once again, ye know not of what you speak. I didn't see her leaving Sheppard Pratt, her father got her and took her to the airport. She was so terrified of going to PV she tried to hurt herself in order to stay at Sheppard Pratt. She knew PV from a brief encounter before SP - she picked up cutting at the PV Lighthouse, as well as stories told by girls recovering from suicide attempts, acts performed next door at the full-on PV in an effort to escape.
Out of mercy, SP gave her a shot of Klonopine to keep her calm on the plane.
-
Buy me a car, who.
-
After a few weeks all the parents headed up the trail to find the kids and when I saw my daughter coming around the corner with that big smile on her face!!.... and she looked so healthy!!.... all the color in her cheeks!!!.... we headed back down the mountain and we all spent the night in the woods with our kids in control (Help!!!!) She built the shelter, made dinner, built the fire and we spent the night talking about her experiences… one of the best decisions we ever made.
Oh God, the sugar content in that post is causing diabetes all around, you melodramatic Spam.
Do you make late night infomercials? You got the spiel down, Shatner.
Oh, come on, tell me you didnt feel good when your step daughter did well at Sheppard Pratt .... you couldnt help but be proud of her and the turn around that occured. For a parent to see their own son or daughter come so far in such a short time, when just a few weeks ago they lacked total self esteem and were heading down a direr path you would stop in you tracks yourself and relish the moment and it would become one of the highlights of your life...I gaurentee you.
"Guarantee". Once again, ye know not of what you speak. I didn't see her leaving Sheppard Pratt, her father got her and took her to the airport. She was so terrified of going to PV she tried to hurt herself in order to stay at Sheppard Pratt. She knew PV from a brief encounter before SP - she picked up cutting at the PV Lighthouse, as well as stories told by girls recovering from suicide attempts, acts performed next door at the full-on PV in an effort to escape.
Out of mercy, SP gave her a shot of Klonopine to keep her calm on the plane.
Sorry to hear that, I honestly did not know that part of the story.
-
Buy me a car, who.
What kind? My nephew is trying to talk me into one of these (looks gay to me):
(http://http://www.carblog.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/lambo_alar02.jpg)
But want the Shelby if I can get it:
(http://http://damox.com/cars/thumbs/Shelby/1966_Shelby_GT350_red.jpg)
-
Who, I'll be your groveling bitch and greatest defender forever if I can have the yellow number...with spinning wheels. Dammit to hell, I'm driving a 1978 Pacer with more miles than God's had birthdays...
-
We have an extra Shelby laying around, and since I think so much of you, you can have it!
J/K not into cars. We do have a classic 69 Camaro, all original in mint condition. I would love for my hubby to get rid of it! What about that? Any interest LOL?!!!!
-
Who, I'll be your groveling bitch and greatest defender forever if I can have the yellow number...with spinning wheels. Dammit to hell, I'm driving a 1978 Pacer with more miles than God's had birthdays...
The yellow one is nice, bet the insurance is high....... I still lean towards the shelby cobra, but I think I would be restricted to driving it on weekends..Dam,.I do like cars though.
-
We have an extra Shelby laying around, and since I think so much of you, you can have it!
J/K not into cars. We do have a classic 69 Camaro, all original in mint condition. I would love for my hubby to get rid of it! What about that? Any interest LOL?!!!!
I may take you up on the '69, CCM.
-
Asinus asinum fricat.