Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 01, 2007, 08:42:47 PM
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Wasn't there supposed to be a hearing in September? For victims, survivors to testify before the committee?
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There was talk of one but I believe that was an error due to miscommunication, deliberate or otherwise, on the part of Craptey.
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There was talk of one but I believe that was an error due to miscommunication, deliberate or otherwise, on the part of Craptey.
I think I've heard the same twisted tale The Wandering One has...the GAO met with a group of advocates and parents who lost their kids in programs. The GAO wanted their involvement kept on the down low so they wouldn't alert every piece of program trash to their actions.
The news of the GAO involvement made it to CAFETY, and someone couldn't control their hole and splashed the news across the CAFETY home page. Let's see, what board member of CAFETY is weasel-like, whiny, and given to acting and speaking before his brain is even in gear? Yeah, it could be more than one... if I were betting the kids' college funds, I'd put the wad down on Lombrowski.
The result of CAFETY making the GAO activities public resulted in them being flooded with people and stories. Only two investigators were supposed to handle the job, but they were overrun.
Late September has changed to late October, and I imagine the GAO is having to weed through NATSAP and ST cretins trying to botch the works by calling over and over with the same story, slightly altered each time, of little Bocephus or Irma Lou being saved from whoring, sucking that glass dick, stripping, jail and/or death and the Eternal Lake of Fire.
Thanks, CAFETY. You got the scoop, alright. Who's side are you guys on, anyway? Let Blombro screw a program counselor and he'll forget his name and purpose. Not surprising.
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http://edworkforce.house.gov/committee/schedule.shtml (http://edworkforce.house.gov/committee/schedule.shtml)
Apparently, the hearing itself was kept under wraps to everyone....this just hit the congressional committee page recently.
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I think they have a select list of victims to testify and these people have already been notified. Still, why not give people more notice so if they wanted to attend the hearing they could at least shop around for affordable airfare and hotel rates? 7 days notice is really pathetic, IMO.
:roll:
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Wow, sounds rather subversive to me, I sure hope this isn't going to come down to special interest groups or individuals with ties to groups like Cafety or A Start. Be interesting to see who the GAO recommended testify before this committee.
Anybody planning to attend the hearings or protest agains Uncle Sam for allowing this industry to exist in the first place? Come on - it is not like people haven't been knocking on Congress's door for years - this crap goes back more than 3 decades. If I don't see any Straight or KHK, The Seed, etc. survivors on the list of people to testify, I won't be too surprised given the implications of their testimony which would clearly point a finger at our own government, not just WWASPS, Aspen, etc.
:roll:
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looks like we're hearing about it the same time as cafety...so doesn't look like they had any insider info on it either. don't even think it's on their site yet.
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I sent email to C-span and brian lamb to let him know and maybe they will cover it on washington journal that morning and put it on their cspan network if enough people show interest.
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Where can I get a list of the people testifying or is the Committee going to keep that a secret? If so, why? I thought this was America. You know, goverment for and by the people?
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My view on this is that Cafety either consciously or subconsciously got wind of something involving the GAo and went gung ho posting it... I dont believe the government is going to listen to us... I dont have much faith in our government... not getting started with political views here... just please dont get hopes too high. you can always hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. I doubt this is going to happen. Maybe I will be proved wrong, but thats my personal view.
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Where can I get a list of the people testifying or is the Committee going to keep that a secret? If so, why? I thought this was America. You know, goverment for and by the people?
This morning when I checked the Committee page for G. Miller's Education and whatnot committee it appeared that the witness list hadn't been completely decided yet or in other words it is to be announced(TBA).
I believe they will end up doing a representative sample of the industry. Meaning they will have some survivors and they will have some industry reps. More than likely we will end up seeing some of those NATSAP shills saying their piece.
Of course I'll go on record and say that no doubt my advice to host a summary execution of any industry representative is likely to receive little attention.
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I thought I was going to be asked to testify, but was not called as a witness. Seems like there should be some way for the nonchosen to speak up. I feel like some of us are being SILENCED.
We need a voice so we can ALL be heard.
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dog and pony show anyone??
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More than likely we will end up seeing some of those NATSAP shills saying their piece.
I believe Thayer Learning center is a "Military boot camp"...... NATSAP would come out to support their own members maybe or even non members, but they would need to be therapeutic schools or programs.
I dont believe Thayer is associated with NATSAP.
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What? There's actually something you don't KNOW, Mr. Who?
I'm shocked!
I dont believe Thayer is associated with NATSAP
.
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What? There's actually something you don't KNOW, Mr. Who?
I'm shocked!
I dont believe Thayer is associated with NATSAP
.
Ha,Ha, Thanks for the compliment, but you would be surprised...I struggle so much with trying to resolve problems on my computer, I usually end up having my nephew stop over to clean up my mess and get me going again. But I am getting better at it.
Anyway, I checked and Thayer is a "Military boot camp" which is not associated with NATSAP.
...
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WW
Does G. Miller's page show the hearing date? Thanks in advance.
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I was not asked to testify. So I've been looking for another way to be heard at the hearing about my son's death from medical negligence. I just stumbled on this page where you can share your story and have it made part of the record for the hearing. Apparently NATSAP, according to a fornits post I read, has collected many letters from people supporting their programs. This wiki is a grass roots effort started by someone named Allison Pinto to offset NATSAP'S effort. I'm including some of the Wiki here, check it out and post your story for Congress.
http://http://endinstitutionalabuse.wikispaces.com
This wiki is a virtual grass roots effort to organize and speak out. We've got less than a week...
On October 10, 2007, the Committee on Education and Labor will be holding a hearing in Congress entitled, "Cases of Child Neglect and Abuse at Private Residential Treatment Facilities."
There will be an opportunity for the presentation of written personal accounts and position statements regarding issues of mistreatment, abuse and neglect in private residential programs, to be submitted for the record. If you would like to submit a statement, letter or story to Congress, please click on the "discussion" tab above and post your letter or story.
Please note that this wikispaces site is a public site, so it is visible to anyone and everyone. Be careful to include only that information that you are comfortable sharing in the public domain.
Also, please recognize that wiki technology makes it possible for individuals to respond to one another's contributions. If you choose to respond to someone else's post, please maintain a respectful stance that honors the inherent dignity of that individual.
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That is Allison Pinto, A START, and Cafety, I think. Two orgs with dubious agendas, from what I gather. Don't forget, it's not all about the parents. They aren't the ones being institutionalized. They are the ones paying for it.
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You can also send your letters direct to Congressman Miller or the Committee, you DO NOT NEED to go through A START or CAFETY or any third person.
:roll:
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That is Allison Pinto, A START, and Cafety, I think. Two orgs with dubious agendas, from what I gather. Don't forget, it's not all about the parents. They aren't the ones being institutionalized. They are the ones paying for it.
Why is it people are always try to label everyone (i.e. the ones paying for it, the ones going to school). If a child needs to go to the dentist to get a tooth repaired it is not the parents who are going to be in pain although most parents wish they could trade places. It is also not the kids who are paying for it, for obvious reasons. So why is it that it seems to be such a big deal when it comes to therapy? We always hear comments: “Oh, the parents just pay for it while the kid has to go to schoolâ€
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:puke:
Don't even pretend.
If they wanted to make a best decision for everyone involved they wouldn't be sending their kid off to torture camp (please don't use the word 'school'- that's not what these things are) using their college fund to pay for it, now would they?
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You can also send your letters direct to Congressman Miller or the Committee, you DO NOT NEED to go through A START or CAFETY or any third person.
:roll:
well that's just damned sneaky, and I think I'll contact Ms. Pinto and tell her what I think, if that's true.
Should I assume if I don't recieve an acknowledgment that they have received my letter? I've been emailing George Miller and others on the committe for weeks, and have never even recieved the courtesy of an acknowledgement. Makes you wonder if they even read their mail. I'm frustrated, just trying to find some way to get heard.
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:puke:
Don't even pretend.
If they wanted to make a best decision for everyone involved they wouldn't be sending their kid off to torture camp (please don't use the word 'school'- that's not what these things are) using their college fund to pay for it, now would they?
Don't get too down on parents. They're not perfect. They get duped. They don't know exactly what they are getting into, even IF they do research. In my case, I had a referral to Youth Care from UCLA's Neuropych Unit, a very well respected pediatric psychiatric facility, in the top 5 in the country. And Youth Care markets their program not only as a "school", but as a "step down long term residential medically based program suitable for transition from a psych unit" to back home for kids with severe problems. They have JHACO accreditation, same as hospitals, which is supposed to ensure consumers of a standard of care. My son was dangerous both to himself and others. My other child's life was in danger. So don't talk to me about best decisions. Believe it or not, and I'm not going to argue with you about it, some parents reallly love their kids, and make the best decision they can with the information they have at the time. If I had known my son's medical needs would be ignored, OF COURSE I would not have sent him there. You can't undermine the efforts of parents if you have not lived in their shoes, and you can't generalize every situation. I agree that some parents shirk their responsiblities, but some actually try to do what's right in a bad situation. I literally had to choose between losing my younger child or keeping my troubled kid at home. Tough choice. In my case it didn't work out so well. Now I only have 1 kid, it could have happened the other way around, where I lost my other child. In a perfect world, parents would always make perfect choices for their perfect teenagers. Get real.
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Miller's group probably doesn't want to be bothered so they delegated responsibility to someone else with a vested interest in the issues at hand, is my guess. This is typically how these hearings work which is why some may choose to send their letters or email direct, by certified mail if need be.
SURE HOPE THERE ARE SURVIVORS PLANNING TO ATTEND, AND/OR PROTEST SINCE THEY ARE NOT BEING REPRESENTED. THAT'S THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET. ITS PARENTS.
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Miller's group probably doesn't want to be bothered so they delegated responsibility to someone else with a vested interest in the issues at hand, is my guess. This is typically how these hearings work which is why some may choose to send their letters or email direct, by certified mail if need be.
SURE HOPE THERE ARE SURVIVORS PLANNING TO ATTEND, AND/OR PROTEST SINCE THEY ARE NOT BEING REPRESENTED. THAT'S THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET. ITS PARENTS.
screw you. I'm the PARENT of a child who didn't even SURVIVE, and suffered the worst possible abuse - he DIED. so just go fuck yourself saying parents don't care.
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Pitbull Mom, you need to calm down and look at the big picture.
The industry has been abusing the rights of children for going on 4 decades. There are survivors of residential treatment abuse whose parents betrayed them when they were teens and to this day, still believe they were justified in committing them into an abusive program under the auspices of therapy or treatment. Read about Straight. The Seed. Kids Helping Kids. The Cult-Like anti-drug programs produced thousands of now-grown adults with wounded hearts, souls and spirits. They are some of the most courageous warriors and should be testifying. Shame on Miller and his group if it turns out these hearings are comprised of parents giving testimony and special interests groups like A Start.
If there are NO SURVIVORS of institutionalized child abuse testifying, that says alot. My advice is get organized NOW. Start making signs and planning your speeches. The media will be out IN FORCE along with industry people.
NOW IS THE TIME for the advocates and activists to rally the troops and make sure the survivors are represented even if they aren't allowed and/or otherwise "invited" to testify.
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Miller's group probably doesn't want to be bothered so they delegated responsibility to someone else with a vested interest in the issues at hand, is my guess. This is typically how these hearings work which is why some may choose to send their letters or email direct, by certified mail if need be.
SURE HOPE THERE ARE SURVIVORS PLANNING TO ATTEND, AND/OR PROTEST SINCE THEY ARE NOT BEING REPRESENTED. THAT'S THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET. ITS PARENTS.
Sadly, That seems to be the case, but don't blame the GAO. They put their hearts and souls into this investigation. Sadly, much is out of their hands. They report to the committee holding the hearing, sponsoring the bill, and ordering (and, hence, controlling) the investigation. What their motives are is... Unknown for sure.
I trust the GAO investigator who was assigned to me. She truly did/does care about this issue... How could anybody not care who has done the research. Hopefully, there will be a second investigation that is more wide-ranging but that is all hypothetical at this point.
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:puke:
Don't even pretend.
If they wanted to make a best decision for everyone involved they wouldn't be sending their kid off to torture camp (please don't use the word 'school'- that's not what these things are) using their college fund to pay for it, now would they?
And if they are not around to attend college? and whose college fund is it? Funny how everyone seems to forget who earned the money.
What a puttz. Sorry you lost your cell phone for a few weeks.
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:puke:
Don't even pretend.
If they wanted to make a best decision for everyone involved they wouldn't be sending their kid off to torture camp (please don't use the word 'school'- that's not what these things are) using their college fund to pay for it, now would they?
I share your sentiment. They are BM warehouses that provide schooling only because any program that houses kids 24/7 is required to. "School" is so much softer than Program.
The trolls use of 'school' is actually accurate in many cases. Many are classified as no more than private schools. Here's a partial list of Aspen/ NATSAP programs that are not properly licensed as TBSs, EGBS, RTCs; simply listed with the state as private/boarding schools. The experimental, mind raping 'therapy' kids are enduring is not monitored by any outside agency.
ASPEN
Academy at Swift River
Academy of the Sierras
Bromley Brook School
Excel Academy- I'll have to check into this one. Lone Star Expeditions is licensed in Tx, but Excel isn't. Curious?
New Leaf Academy of NC
Stone Mtn School
NATSAP
Auldern Academy
Benchmark Young Adult School
Betton House (Family Foundation)
Chrysalis
Coral Reef Academy
Elan
Family Foundation School
Granite Hill School
In Balance Ranch Academy
John Dewey Academy
King George School
Mission Mtn School
Montana Academy
Montcalm School for Boys
Pine River Institute
San Cristobal Academy
Shortridge Academy
Star Meadows Academy at Hope Ranch
Summit Preparatory School
The Oliverian School
Turning Winds Academies Institute
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Miller's group probably doesn't want to be bothered so they delegated responsibility to someone else with a vested interest in the issues at hand, is my guess. This is typically how these hearings work which is why some may choose to send their letters or email direct, by certified mail if need be.
SURE HOPE THERE ARE SURVIVORS PLANNING TO ATTEND, AND/OR PROTEST SINCE THEY ARE NOT BEING REPRESENTED. THAT'S THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET. ITS PARENTS.
screw you. I'm the PARENT of a child who didn't even SURVIVE, and suffered the worst possible abuse - he DIED. so just go fuck yourself saying parents don't care.
Look. A parent with a dead kid doesn't need any more punishment, however, I do agree that survivors not being represented at the GAO hearing is troubling to say the very least. My feeling is some political calculatrix decided our voices weren't politically convenient or credible enough for the public at large (possibly correct, considering people's common assumptions and prejudices about "troubled teens")...
That being said, we still aren't represented, sadly, and without legal recourse, what else left is there? Every day, all across this country: Torture of the body, rape of the mind, erasure of identity, murder of soul... What about those who wished they had died rather than go through what they did and end up like they did. What about those who are dead inside. What about those who I witnessed try to take their lives to get out, even temporarily, to be away from the stress, drama, and every day verbal confrontations that left everybody at each other's throats. What about being trained like a dog, humiliated in public. What about the systematic engineering of a critical failure in a person's life to create make a buck...
I think we all have a right to speak, and yes, I am a little upset that reportedly no survivors are testifying. I would protest, but It would probably end up being detrimental to the cause in the long run, but then again, i'd have to think about it and weigh the pros and cons. On the other hand, it might be nice to get some answers to some questions i'm sure we're all itching to ask. Well. What happens, happens. I'll be there, and hanging around for the after-party.
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Pitbull Mom, you need to calm down and look at the big picture.
The industry has been abusing the rights of children for going on 4 decades. There are survivors of residential treatment abuse whose parents betrayed them when they were teens and to this day, still believe they were justified in committing them into an abusive program under the auspices of therapy or treatment. Read about Straight. The Seed. Kids Helping Kids. The Cult-Like anti-drug programs produced thousands of now-grown adults with wounded hearts, souls and spirits. They are some of the most courageous warriors and should be testifying. Shame on Miller and his group if it turns out these hearings are comprised of parents giving testimony and special interests groups like A Start.
If there are NO SURVIVORS of institutionalized child abuse testifying, that says alot. My advice is get organized NOW. Start making signs and planning your speeches. The media will be out IN FORCE along with industry people.
NOW IS THE TIME for the advocates and activists to rally the troops and make sure the survivors are represented even if they aren't allowed and/or otherwise "invited" to testify.
WHY THE HELL DO I NEED TO CALM DOWN? My son is DEAD for pete's sake, and I am working full time to try to do something about it. Apparently no one gives a damn. I just don't think parents of dead children should be banned or treated like crap on this board, or any parent who got duped for that matter. If they are on fornits, they are trying to learn something. I have just as much to say as a survivor, and I don't treat them like crap. I have read about the abuse, i'm not a stupid or lame parent. I am also a wounded soul. I got duped. That doesn't make me a bad parent. I have spent most of every day for months now contacting officials in Utah and Nevada, legislators, media, etc. I talked to the GAO. We got so little notice about the hearing it makes it tough to have a voice at this hearing if you aren't one of the witnesses. I too hope that there are witnesses who are Survivors, and Parents of Suvivors, and Parents of kids who didn't Survive. These groups are not necessarily factions without similar interests here. How many of the assholes who called me a murderer even bothered to call Ken Stettler and complain. Zero, I bet.
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I think that was just an attempt to explain why you get some of the reactions you do. Everyone feels for your loss but it doesn't mean people aren't going to speak their minds. No one's telling you to leave or that you can't post. The victims of these places have earned their anger. Sometimes you're just going to have to overlook it.
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Miller's group probably doesn't want to be bothered so they delegated responsibility to someone else with a vested interest in the issues at hand, is my guess. This is typically how these hearings work which is why some may choose to send their letters or email direct, by certified mail if need be.
SURE HOPE THERE ARE SURVIVORS PLANNING TO ATTEND, AND/OR PROTEST SINCE THEY ARE NOT BEING REPRESENTED. THAT'S THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET. ITS PARENTS.
screw you. I'm the PARENT of a child who didn't even SURVIVE, and suffered the worst possible abuse - he DIED. so just go fuck yourself saying parents don't care.
Look. A parent with a dead kid doesn't need any more punishment, however, I do agree that survivors not being represented at the GAO hearing is troubling to say the very least. My feeling is some political calculatrix decided our voices weren't politically convenient or credible enough for the public at large (possibly correct, considering people's common assumptions and prejudices about "troubled teens")...
That being said, we still aren't represented, sadly, and without legal recourse, what else left is there? Every day, all across this country: Torture of the body, rape of the mind, erasure of identity, murder of soul... What about those who wished they had died rather than go through what they did and end up like they did. What about those who I witnessed try to take their lives to get out, even temporarily, to be away from the stress, drama, and every day verbal confrontations that left everybody at each other's throats. What about being trained like a dog, humiliated in public. What about the systematic engineering of a critical failure in a person's life to create make a buck...
I think we all have a right to speak, and yes, I am a little upset that reportedly no survivors are testifying. I would protest, but It would probably end up being detrimental to the cause in the long run, but then again, i'd have to think about it and weigh the pros and cons. On the other hand, it might be nice to get some answers to some questions i'm sure we're all itching to ask. Well. What happens, happens. I'll be there, and hanging around for the after-party.
If NO survivors are truly being allowed to testify, that is a travesty, and you need to make a really Big Stink. I hope all of you survivors are showing up. I wish I could be there to support you. (And I have a very large lab puppy that make really big, really useful piles.) I will continue up until the hour of the hearing to try to find a voice for you. And for my beautiful son Brendan Blum, who didn't make it.
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Miller's group probably doesn't want to be bothered so they delegated responsibility to someone else with a vested interest in the issues at hand, is my guess. This is typically how these hearings work which is why some may choose to send their letters or email direct, by certified mail if need be.
SURE HOPE THERE ARE SURVIVORS PLANNING TO ATTEND, AND/OR PROTEST SINCE THEY ARE NOT BEING REPRESENTED. THAT'S THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET. ITS PARENTS.
screw you. I'm the PARENT of a child who didn't even SURVIVE, and suffered the worst possible abuse - he DIED. so just go fuck yourself saying parents don't care.
Look. A parent with a dead kid doesn't need any more punishment, however, I do agree that survivors not being represented at the GAO hearing is troubling to say the very least. My feeling is some political calculatrix decided our voices weren't politically convenient or credible enough for the public at large (possibly correct, considering people's common assumptions and prejudices about "troubled teens")...
That being said, we still aren't represented, sadly, and without legal recourse, what else left is there? Every day, all across this country: Torture of the body, rape of the mind, erasure of identity, murder of soul... What about those who wished they had died rather than go through what they did and end up like they did. What about those who I witnessed try to take their lives to get out, even temporarily, to be away from the stress, drama, and every day verbal confrontations that left everybody at each other's throats. What about being trained like a dog, humiliated in public. What about the systematic engineering of a critical failure in a person's life to create make a buck...
I think we all have a right to speak, and yes, I am a little upset that reportedly no survivors are testifying. I would protest, but It would probably end up being detrimental to the cause in the long run, but then again, i'd have to think about it and weigh the pros and cons. On the other hand, it might be nice to get some answers to some questions i'm sure we're all itching to ask. Well. What happens, happens. I'll be there, and hanging around for the after-party.
If NO survivors are truly being allowed to testify, that is a travesty, and you need to make a really Big Stink. I hope all of you survivors are showing up. I wish I could be there to support you. (And I have a very large lab puppy that make really big, really useful piles.)
Sweet! I love dogs (my parents have two, one which I raised from a puppy).
I will continue up until the hour of the hearing to try to find a voice for you. And for my beautiful son Brendan Blum, who didn't make it.
Yeah. Even if survivors don't testify, the more important issue is raising awareness. The problem is when the level of awareness is controlled (for whatever reason). Ultimately, however most parents who have been around here are a while have opinions and goals that are pretty similar to that of most local survivors. We'll see what happens. It isn't too late to contact the committee and bitch them out (diplomatically, of course), but i'm not sure how much they'll listen. Maybe we have to make our own noise.
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So, you organize an event for all those not allowed to testify. Do it professionally. Rent a meeting space near the hearing. Send out press releases and invite the press to your event. Select the most able among you to speak for the group. Be organized. Have people sign up to speak. Set a time limit for each speaker, etc.
You're likely to get more notice is this isn't done in opposition to, but in support of the GAO's investigation. I have no idea why survivors aren't allowed, if that's true, but it could be that there are limits on time/number of speakers, and a few survivors may have already been selected. Remember, this has been in the planning for a while. With any luck, he has selected those he feels will have the strongest impact on the committee.
There's one thing I'd particularly like to see come from this. That all programs have to report to a central agency re accidents, deaths, sexual/physical assaults, amputations, chronic digestive/health issues due to inadequate diet, etc. etc. etc.
If the "free market economy" approach to shutting down the industry touted here is to work, it will work best, if/when parents get the real stats on the industry.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=269064#269064 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=269064#269064)
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So, you organize an event for all those not allowed to testify. Do it professionally. Rent a meeting space near the hearing. Send out press releases and invite the press to your event. Select the most able among you to speak for the group. Be organized. Have people sign up to speak. Set a time limit for each speaker, etc.
You're likely to get more notice is this isn't done in opposition to, but in support of the GAO's investigation. I have no idea why survivors aren't allowed, if that's true, but it could be that there are limits on time/number of speakers, and a few survivors may have already been selected. Remember, this has been in the planning for a while. With any luck, he has selected those he feels will have the strongest impact on the committee.
There's one thing I'd particularly like to see come from this. That all programs have to report to a central agency re accidents, deaths, sexual/physical assaults, amputations, chronic digestive/health issues due to inadequate diet, etc. etc. etc.
If the "free market economy" approach to shutting down the industry touted here is to work, it will work best, if/when parents get the real stats on the industry.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=269064#269064 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=269064#269064)
What do others, survivors or others, want to see come from this hearing? I'm sending another letter to each of the committe members tomorrow, and I'll be happy to include any comments you want to include here, or PM me.
I'd really like to see you survivors do what Deb suggests. Having a very professional approach will get you noticed. Make some real noise.
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Or... we do our very best to block the legislation when it goes through senate.
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Is a list of witnesses available? How do we know if there are, or are not any survivors on the witness list?
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WHY THE HELL DO I NEED TO CALM DOWN? My son is DEAD for pete's sake, and I am working full time to try to do something about it. Apparently no one gives a damn. I just don't think parents of dead children should be banned or treated like crap on this board, or any parent who got duped for that matter. If they are on fornits, they are trying to learn something. I have just as much to say as a survivor, and I don't treat them like crap. I have read about the abuse, i'm not a stupid or lame parent. I am also a wounded soul. I got duped. That doesn't make me a bad parent. I have spent most of every day for months now contacting officials in Utah and Nevada, legislators, media, etc. I talked to the GAO. We got so little notice about the hearing it makes it tough to have a voice at this hearing if you aren't one of the witnesses. I too hope that there are witnesses who are Survivors, and Parents of Suvivors, and Parents of kids who didn't Survive. These groups are not necessarily factions without similar interests here. How many of the assholes who called me a murderer even bothered to call Ken Stettler and complain. Zero, I bet.
Bolded part = LOL!! Learn what?!
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I have learned a lot about how the abusive residential therapeutic industry works from fornits. It alerted me to the dangers and caused me to search other places for more information. I predict that within my lifetime, these places will be illegal and sending your child to such a place would be considered child abuse. This has already started. In Florida, parents were convicted of child endangerment for attempting to send their child to Tranquility Bay.
I would love to see it made a crime for a parent to attempt to send their child to another state for a therapeutic boarding school. If the kid needs mental help, there are resources available in every state. The only reason a kid would be shipped out of state is because the parents have bought into some abusive residential therapeutic facility's marketing crap.
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You've learned a lot about a few programs that mistreated kids. This proposed legislation is to end institutionalized child abuse - who would object to that? No one. Not even NATSAP. Get your facts from the actual bill. The good programs out there aren't objecting to the premise of the bill or the fact that there are bad programs out there that should be shut down. And yes, my friends, there are good programs whose intent is to help kids. Don't let the mistreatment you endured from a program lead you to generalize about all programs now... that's English 101 and a straw man's argument ("I don't like broccoli, broccoli is a vegetable, therefore I don't like any vegetables").
And you certainly cannot be claiming that state funded programs are a good substitute for sending your kids to appropriate treatment out of state - or do you live in Canada where the healthcare system is vastly better?
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Interesting.. if you look at the bill with a bit of caution you will realize it calls for increasing funding for the licensing of programs. Nothing about the abolition of bad programs seems to be present in the document. All very convient to those programs hiding out behind their state licenses. How many of them are abusive?
Quite the few..
Natsap is jumping heads over heels for this legislation because it allows them to claim some sort of moral superiority over other parts of the industry that are undeniably outrageously evil. Let us examine the crucial facts though:
Peninsula Village: Licensed.. proven abusive.
Benchmark: provisional license.. proven abusive..
Hidden Lake Academy: temporary license.... proven abusive...
Three Springs: Licensed.. proven abusive..
Eckerd Youth Alternative: Licensed.. 1 kid killed.. how many more?
Youth Care: license under review.. I'm giving them good odds that they get it back also...1 young man killed how many more?
Aspen: proven to contain abusive programmes. all licensed..
So really do tell me why it matters if there are these so called good programmes in existence? They still strip a human being of their given rights to due process, dignity, and humanity. You are the sort that calls for help for kids via programmes. Myself, and a great many of the posters on this forum, are the sorts that call for help for children right in their own community.
I'll go a step further than some others. I really do believe that if the parents want outside support that is their right as parents. However, I do not believe that it should be the right of the parent to have their children kidnapped from their own homes, locked away in a private facility, deprived of contact from the outside world, and further subjected to the so called "good treatement" technigues of these so called "good programmes".
I've been hesitant to speak my real feelings on this proposed legislation in the past. However, I now feel no fear, and frankly don't really care much about what the rest of the forum/community believes.
I 100 percent oppose the proposed legislation in the form that exists. Should this appalling piece of legislation pass through congress and be signed into power by the president we will have built the launching pad for the perpetuation of abuse to young men and women in programmes for years to come.
Let us not fall prey to the strawman arguement of good programme versus bad programme. Let us be very clear sighted when we realize that in no way should the parents alone have the power to deprive their children of their human rights. Such rights that include access to the outside world, freedom of speech, freedom of choice, and freedom to deny unwanted therapy.
You can't force therapy on a person without it automatically becoming brain-washing.
Care without consent is wrong.
Thank you all end of rant.
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No, the proposed bill is not to end institutionalized child abuse. That is a virtual impossibility as long as children are treated as the private property of their parents.
The real shame is that the testimony of survivors and even certain advocates is being suppressed in order to shield the United States government from any accountability or liability for turning a blind eye and a deft ear to the hundreds of allegations made over the years.
I just hope anyone who can attend the hearings and IS A SURVIVOR comes prepared with statements to pass out to the media to make sure your voice is heard. Ditto any former staff who can provide testimony to support survivors.
Instead of parents being interviewed by the mainstream press, industry representatives, and special interest groups like A-Start grabbing the headlines, the attention should be on the YOUTH who are the true victims. It is an outrage that survivors are being shoved aside. Call Miller's office and the Committee and let them know how you feel about this travesty. Tell them there are thousands of victims and it is unconsciounable that you are not being properly represented.
Deborah's suggestion was very good and could be easily implemented.
Please don't go down without a fight.
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what he said^^^^ times 5.
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Well said TSW - you are exactly correct.
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At the very least, there should be an organized presence of survivors who are ready, willing and able to speak to the media.
The short notice was deliberate. Wake up and smell the bullshit.
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At the very least, there should be an organized presence of survivors who are ready, willing and able to speak to the media.
The short notice was deliberate. Wake up and smell the bullshit.
Found my new signature.
Thanks!
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NATSAP isn't necessarily thrilled about this legislation. They do want to influence what it will contain.
NATSAPs letter to Miller
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=112579#112579 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=112579#112579)
NATSAP collaborates with Miller
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=284042#284042 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=284042#284042)
Anyone who has a working relationship with Miller know if he understand who/what NATSAP is and how they have negatively influenced other legislation in the past? How they supported Self-Regulation in Montana? Influenced licensing in Utah.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=89677#89677 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=89677#89677)
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=144062#144062 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=144062#144062)
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=280143#280143 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=280143#280143)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=225696#225696 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=225696#225696)
The industry knows they are functioning unethically. One of their own wrote a letter of warning several years ago.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=23506#23506 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=23506#23506)
"the industry is largely unregulated and unsupervised in any meaningful way."
"Some personal growth schools with genuine therapeutic content have been licensed only as schools, avoiding regulations and safeguards applicable to services intended to affect behavior and emotional health."
"There is at best minimal regulation of any of these services."
"There are no regulations we know of governing escort or transport services."
NATSAP opposed this legislation and had a say in the final draft.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=53026#53026 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=53026#53026)
"Many of the most restrictive and intense therapeutic programs manage to be licensed only as schools although they keep kids in very confining programs against their will. In many cases this is a clear case of dodging the spirit of regulations intending to ensure that people in therapeutic environments are safe.
"There is no regulation of the consultants and other referral sources."
"Our concern about that is that we do not believe that the self-policing procedures of regional accrediting bodies and even the IECA are working well. There appears, in both to be a higher emphasis placed on protecting the established interests of members than in enforcing serious standards of qualification, conduct, and consumer safety."
"Many of the practices for which these groups have criticized the offshore programs also occur in domestic programs, including some of those which we would almost universally AGREE ARE MAINSTREAM PROGRAMS. This includes some of the programs IECA member consultants have most highly valued as special purpose schools, and fully credentialled and accredited psychiatric facilities."
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This board is overflowing with completely insane rumor and nasty innuendo, such as suggestions that Miller is co-opted and that some extremely dedicated activists who have never had industry ties have been co-opted (or somehow were responsible for a delay in the hearings that was actually very short and completely due to other factors) and with completely uninformed speculation about the intent of Miller vis a vis survivors that has no basis in reality.
There is *strategy* to legislation and legislative hearings-- and one of the smart kinds of strategy is not to play your whole hand all at once. One hearing is not the whole deal. Those who testify now are probably not the only ones who will have the opportunity.
Second, the existing version of the bill was written while the Republicans controlled Congress as a compromise. here's a hint: the Republicans no longer control Congress. NATSAP is scared because they know Miller wants *federal* regulation and only deferred to the states because his party was not in power.
And the GAO is not stupid. Any look at their prior investigations of industries and scientific claims that the government would have preferred to suppress suggests that they don't fall for nonsense.
Please stop the infighting and do not judge what is going on until you actually know the facts from the inside.
Of course, the actual legislation may ultimately disappoint as with everything in government-- but people here have some really bizarre ideas that have serious potential to hinder their chances of effectively promoting their own cause.
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do not judge what is going on until you actually know the facts from the inside.
I agree with almost everything this Anonymous has to say, but this particular passage has me a bit on edge. Isn't the whole point of government transparency that you don't need to be on the inside to know what's going on?
What are the facts from the inside?
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This board is overflowing with completely insane rumor and nasty innuendo, such as suggestions that Miller is co-opted and that some extremely dedicated activists who have never had industry ties have been co-opted (or somehow were responsible for a delay in the hearings that was actually very short and completely due to other factors) and with completely uninformed speculation about the intent of Miller vis a vis survivors that has no basis in reality.
There is *strategy* to legislation and legislative hearings-- and one of the smart kinds of strategy is not to play your whole hand all at once. One hearing is not the whole deal. Those who testify now are probably not the only ones who will have the opportunity.
Second, the existing version of the bill was written while the Republicans controlled Congress as a compromise. here's a hint: the Republicans no longer control Congress. NATSAP is scared because they know Miller wants *federal* regulation and only deferred to the states because his party was not in power.
And the GAO is not stupid. Any look at their prior investigations of industries and scientific claims that the government would have preferred to suppress suggests that they don't fall for nonsense.
Please stop the infighting and do not judge what is going on until you actually know the facts from the inside.
Of course, the actual legislation may ultimately disappoint as with everything in government-- but people here have some really bizarre ideas that have serious potential to hinder their chances of effectively promoting their own cause.
Oh please. Nobody is infighting. And nobody is blaming the GAO. Let's wait and see who Miller's staff chooses to testify. My money is on a group of parents who lost their children and representatives from special interest groups like A Start. Where are the survivors? Anyone from Fornits asked to testify would surely want the board to know. So far, not a single confirmation.
So tell us - rather than speculate - who are the "chosen few"? Are any of them parents? Or affiliated with A-START? Are there survivors testifying? If so, are they members of Cafety?
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They may be under instructions to remain mum until the list is published. But I agree I just here a lot of speculation.
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What exactly is A Start? Who supports them among the various survivor led advocacy groups? So far, I can not find any except perhaps Cafety which has come under fire for their unwillingness to take a firm stand against the referral industry. Personally, I would prefer to see as many survivors testifying and in attendance, as possible. They have earned that right by virtue of the fact they are survivors of institutionalized child abuse. What they have to say is vital to understanding why this industry should be abolished. Whoops - ya think that may be the problem?
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What exactly is A Start? Who supports them among the various survivor led advocacy groups? So far, I can not find any except perhaps Cafety which has come under fire for their unwillingness to take a firm stand against the referral industry. Personally, I would prefer to see as many survivors testifying and in attendance, as possible. They have earned that right by virtue of the fact they are survivors of institutionalized child abuse. What they have to say is vital to understanding why this industry should be abolished. Whoops - ya think that may be the problem?
That is fucking eerie. That is exactly what I was thinking, actually, (if these rumors turn out to be true about survivors not being able to testify).
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CAFETY does not and has never supported the referral industry. Period.
Some people think that Cafety should have cut off one person who is somehow tied with some other person who does.
But it is really sad to see one of the few organized groups of young survivors constantly attacked and railed on when it actually is doing the best it can.
And I'm not a member and have no dog in this fight.
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This board is overflowing with completely insane rumor and nasty innuendo, such as suggestions that Miller is co-opted and that some extremely dedicated activists who have never had industry ties have been co-opted (or somehow were responsible for a delay in the hearings that was actually very short and completely due to other factors) and with completely uninformed speculation about the intent of Miller vis a vis survivors that has no basis in reality.
There is *strategy* to legislation and legislative hearings-- and one of the smart kinds of strategy is not to play your whole hand all at once. One hearing is not the whole deal. Those who testify now are probably not the only ones who will have the opportunity.
Second, the existing version of the bill was written while the Republicans controlled Congress as a compromise. here's a hint: the Republicans no longer control Congress. NATSAP is scared because they know Miller wants *federal* regulation and only deferred to the states because his party was not in power.
And the GAO is not stupid. Any look at their prior investigations of industries and scientific claims that the government would have preferred to suppress suggests that they don't fall for nonsense.
Please stop the infighting and do not judge what is going on until you actually know the facts from the inside.
Of course, the actual legislation may ultimately disappoint as with everything in government-- but people here have some really bizarre ideas that have serious potential to hinder their chances of effectively promoting their own cause.
This poster had a real handle on the realites of government and business. This hearing is only one small cog in the wheel, and Congress is NOT going to just shut down the industry anyway. The idea is to increase awareness in the media, Congress, and the general public.
The real deal is WHAT ARE YOU SURVIVORS DOING? Take some real action, don't just post here where you are preaching to the choir. Any survivors who have not read Deb's post here http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=23447&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
and are not busy contacting their local media, media in Washington, Senator Miller (good luck there), their local politicians, organizing statistics and other information for Congress, writing press releases, etc, are only aiding and abetting the continued abuse. Get off your butts and make some noise, but in a POSITIVE way so the public will listen to you. You have to present yourself so people will take you seriously and relate your story to something already big in the news. The average parent looking for information about teen treatment in evaluating whether or not to enroll their kid in a program is not even going to read fornits for any length of time, they get turned off by the negativity and hostility toward parents and just tune out. if you don't think Congress is the answer to dealing with abuses in the teen industry, fine, find some other outlet to get the story out to the general public.
Here is a link to FOX News Affiliates around the country. I am pitching a story to Fox News in Salt Lake City about my son's death, and how it relates to the hearing on Wednesday.
http://http://www.fox.com/links/affiliates.htm
Contact CNN http://http://www.cnn.com/feedback they have many options for news tips
Contact CSPAN http://http://www.c-span.org/about/contact.asp?code=About
Contact the Washington Business Journal
http://http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/contactus/contact_editor.html
Contact the Washington Post http://http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email
Contact your local paper and ask them if they are covering the hearing. Find someone who has previously covered a related story.
Make phone calls, write emails, send faxes, do what Deborah suggests, rent a hotel room or conference room and invite the media. They'll show up. Blow up photos to poster size. I realize all of this is a lot of work, but bitching and moaning isn't going to accomplish anything unless you have the appropriate forum. If you're not doing SOMETHING, shame on you.
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Some people think that Cafety should have cut off one person who is somehow tied with some other person who does.[
Guest: Are you referring to ALEX who is on the Board of Directors of CAFERTY and the BOARD of Directors of NYRA?
ALEX who has posted on Fornits and other discussion boards voicing his support of Isabelle Zehnder, CAICA ? Isabelle Zehnder does support Sue Scheff, PURE; and she has admitted that she, herself, refers children to programs.
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CAFETY does not and has never supported the referral industry. Period.
Some people think that Cafety should have cut off one person who is somehow tied with some other person who does.
But it is really sad to see one of the few organized groups of young survivors constantly attacked and railed on when it actually is doing the best it can.
And I'm not a member and have no dog in this fight.
What is the connection between Cafety and A Start and how much of a role have they played in enabling A Start to gain a foothold in helping to shape perception of the troubled teen industry. Who are these parents that have been invited to testify and why them? Could it be they also have ties to A Start? I sure as hell hope not but we won't really know until the witness list is revealed who is testifying and more importantly, who is NOT.
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"What is the connection between Cafety and A Start and how much of a role have they played in enabling A Start to gain a foothold in helping to shape perception of the troubled teen industry. Who are these parents that have been invited to testify and why them? Could it be they also have ties to A Start? I sure as hell hope not but we won't really know until the witness list is revealed who is testifying and more importantly, who is NOT."
Can you say "Seminars"? It has been reported that ASTART folk have experience with that sort of thing. No survivors (like you would like to think) are going to be testifying. What a shame eh? :( And, to boot, there's STILL nothing I see in the HR1738 Bill to keep the kids from being ripped from their beds at night and shipped to Jamaica or Samoa or wherever. :roll:
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This Bill is Garbage anyway. I am going to take some time and
re-write it!! Any suggestions are welcome!
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This board is overflowing with completely insane rumor and nasty innuendo, such as suggestions that Miller is co-opted and that some extremely dedicated activists who have never had industry ties have been co-opted (or somehow were responsible for a delay in the hearings that was actually very short and completely due to other factors) and with completely uninformed speculation about the intent of Miller vis a vis survivors that has no basis in reality.
There is *strategy* to legislation and legislative hearings-- and one of the smart kinds of strategy is not to play your whole hand all at once. One hearing is not the whole deal. Those who testify now are probably not the only ones who will have the opportunity.
Second, the existing version of the bill was written while the Republicans controlled Congress as a compromise. here's a hint: the Republicans no longer control Congress. NATSAP is scared because they know Miller wants *federal* regulation and only deferred to the states because his party was not in power.
And the GAO is not stupid. Any look at their prior investigations of industries and scientific claims that the government would have preferred to suppress suggests that they don't fall for nonsense.
Please stop the infighting and do not judge what is going on until you actually know the facts from the inside.
Of course, the actual legislation may ultimately disappoint as with everything in government-- but people here have some really bizarre ideas that have serious potential to hinder their chances of effectively promoting their own cause.
*YAWN*...you finished, CAFETY-ite? "Infighting" is a word you guys kick around a lot, but you aren't "in" - You've got a board member who's tight with Isabelle Zehnder and her business associate, Sue Scheff. The guy would not end his involvement with CAICA and became defensive when his ego got a boot print on it. CAFETY should have ejected him, but maintained an icy silence, despite "discussions" in private. What was the final decision? At this point, no one cares.
Forntis is a "cult" anyway, according to a CAFETY board member. At that point it became clear CAFETY was like a beast thrown in a sawdust pit to fight for its life. CAFETY became a liability and an embarrassment to organizations they worked with - organizations that expected CAFETY to be wise in creating it's own affiliations. CAFETY let a lot of people down, go to the CAFETY site and check out an internet ghost town. Discredited, disrespected, viewed as spineless whiners who became nasty and bitchy when they couldn't offer an explanation or a corrective action.
A START seems unaware of CAFETY's near total lack of supporters - I guess it's becoming clear enough, since the Wiki request for survivor stories is getting an icy response. One CAFETY board member is probably doing the same whining he did on their forum - "Isn't anyone going to RESPOND to this?"
I hope people are sending their stories in directly and bypassing the CAFETY middle-man. A middle-man is all CAFETY was, even when the group mattered. They're still stuck in the middle, dead in the water, incapable of moving forward or backward...whining, pleading, arrogantly demanding that everyone jump back on the boat and row for them.
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This invitation to send in a parent or survivor statement was received by email. It clearly stated that this invitation would not be posted on Fornits.
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This invitation to send in a parent or survivor statement was received by email. It clearly stated that this invitation would not be posted on Fornits.
Unfortunately for you, everything gets posted on Fornits anyway.
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Full Committee and Subcommittee Schedule
Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Full Committee
Hearing on "Cases of Child Neglect and Abuse at Private Residential Treatment Facilities," scheduled at 10:30 a.m. in room 2175 Rayburn H.O.B.
Witnesses:
Greg Kutz
Managing Director
Forensic Audits and Special Investigations
Government Accountability Office
Cynthia Harvey
Mother of Child Victim
Bob Bacon
Father of Child Victim
Paul Lewis
Father of Child Victim
Allison Pinto
Research Psychologist &
Assistant Research Professor
Louis de la Parte Florida Medical Health Institute
University of South Florida
Jan Moss
Executive Director
National Association of
Therapeutic Schools and Programs
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Another way to get your personal statement on record is to email the committee directly... attach a word document if you'd like.
Please don't throw in the towel, have your voice heard!
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If you would like to see the hearing live... go to http://edlabor.house.gov/committee/schedule.shtml (http://edlabor.house.gov/committee/schedule.shtml) and click on live webcast during hearing.
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Full Committee and Subcommittee Schedule
Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Full Committee
Hearing on "Cases of Child Neglect and Abuse at Private Residential Treatment Facilities," scheduled at 10:30 a.m. in room 2175 Rayburn H.O.B.
Witnesses:
Greg Kutz
Managing Director
Forensic Audits and Special Investigations
Government Accountability Office
Cynthia Harvey
Mother of Child Victim
Bob Bacon
Father of Child Victim
Paul Lewis
Father of Child Victim
Allison Pinto
Research Psychologist &
Assistant Research Professor
Louis de la Parte Florida Medical Health Institute
University of South Florida
Jan Moss
Executive Director
National Association of
Therapeutic Schools and Programs
MOTHER FUCKER! I knew it . Oh why am I so not fucking surprised. No survivors.... And goddamned NATSAP is testifying to. I think i'm going to be sick.
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Well - it does suck, especially for the parents who have to put up with the b.s. from Natsap who clearly will attempt to minimize the impact of these deaths by claiming they all happened in "rogue" programs which simply isn't true. Catherine Freer has had 3 deaths and is still open. So is Ayne Institute/Aldredge Academy and Obsidian Trails.
I heard the parents, Pinto and Natsap each get 5 minutes. Not sure about the GAO, I would imagine much longer time will be allocated given this dude is reporting on an investigation which is fairly far reaching.
Surely the committee could have spared an additional 30 minutes for 6 survivors to represent a cross section of programs and institutionalized child abuse.
The good news the media frenzy is already started - so please don't lose heart. Send your statements to Congress and contact the media to get your voice heard.
It's also good that Maia Szalavitz is making the rounds on the media circuit, as are the parents who testified. The ripple effect will be like a tidal wave!
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I expect this to be completely lost in the wake of Hillary bashing and Rush Limbaugh's phony soldier comments, as well as other nonsense by most of the voters in this Country.
BTW, I almost typed that as "Company"... and the USA is pretty quickly turning into one, isn't it?
:( I just have basically ZIP faith in anything happening.
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Full Committee and Subcommittee Schedule
Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Full Committee
Hearing on "Cases of Child Neglect and Abuse at Private Residential Treatment Facilities," scheduled at 10:30 a.m. in room 2175 Rayburn H.O.B.
Witnesses:
Greg Kutz
Managing Director
Forensic Audits and Special Investigations
Government Accountability Office
Cynthia Harvey
Mother of Child Victim
Bob Bacon
Father of Child Victim
Paul Lewis
Father of Child Victim
Allison Pinto
Research Psychologist &
Assistant Research Professor
Louis de la Parte Florida Medical Health Institute
University of South Florida
Jan Moss
Executive Director
National Association of
Therapeutic Schools and Programs
MOTHER FUCKER! I knew it . Oh why am I so not fucking surprised. No survivors.... And goddamned NATSAP is testifying to. I think i'm going to be sick.
Why is everyone so surprised about this? Who would you expect to represent the TBS industry? NATSAP is the only one fighting for regulation, improvement in the therapeutic industry, they have formed a committee and have started regulation on their own. Any decisions that are made at this hear (or as a result of this hearing) are going to directly effect them and the children they care for. They should be the firsts ones invited because they will be the ones enforcing any rules or changes in the industry and can best speak to its potential impact ot viability.
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Wouldn't it be nice if anyone here actually believed that gallon of liquefied horseshit?
The committee is going to watch NATSAP fall all over itself struggling to defend these shitholes and will immediately realize its mistake of inviting them. Congressmen are foul and manipulative, not stupid, and they know more of manipulation than most Fornits members. NATSAP doesn't stand a chance.
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Wouldn't it be nice if anyone here actually believed that gallon of liquefied horseshit?
The committee is going to watch NATSAP fall all over itself struggling to defend these shitholes and will immediately realize its mistake of inviting them. Congressmen are foul and manipulative, not stupid, and they know more of manipulation than most Fornits members. NATSAP doesn't stand a chance.
NATSAP isnt going to defend any shithole..... I think many will be surprised......
(http://http://www.margaretbaker-assoc.com/happyface_ball.jpg)
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QFTing. Like Who really needs proving wrong at this point.
NATSAP isnt going to defend any shithole..... I think many will be surprised......
(http://http://www.margaretbaker-assoc.com/happyface_ball.jpg)
/r/ full transcript to be posted on Fornits.
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Natsap will probably claim to have thousands of happy campers, but in the face of those wilderness therapy deaths which were ALL PREVENTABLE, and the GAO's investigation, Natsap will have to concede that self-regulation sure ain't the answer.
Nice try though Who - must be lonely sitting there all by yourself on the wrong side of the issue.
Alas, some people just can't wake up to the truth that the private teen torment industry shouldn't be regulated - it should be abolished in favor of spending money for community based mental health services.
Buh-Bye, Natsap!
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NATSAP will embrace the industry being regulate, accredited and having the schools abide by state and federal laws.......
Why do you think they would not?
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Self-Regulation which is what the industry wants has failed miserably but since Miller, who sponsored the bill to regulate the industry is chairman of the committee, it's likely no one on that committee is going to think federal regulations aren't necessary.
So of course Natsap is going to advocate in favor of federal regulations, which will open them up to regulation, themselves.
Get it now? The good ole days when Natsap could make and play by it's own rules will be coming to an end. They are going to have to use the front door now.
:roll:
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Self-Regulation which is what the industry wants has failed miserably but since Miller, who sponsored the bill to regulate the industry is chairman of the committee, it's likely no one on that committee is going to think federal regulations aren't necessary.
So of course Natsap is going to advocate in favor of federal regulations, which will open them up to regulation, themselves.
Get it now? The good ole days when Natsap could make and play by it's own rules will be coming to an end. They are going to have to use the front door now.
:roll:
Win-win for everyone... isnt life good when you play by the rules!!
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I wonder how much time Natsap gets to speak? It better be just 5 minutes like Pinto, and the parents get.
Hmmm ... that's only 40 minutes total.
How long does the GAO guy get?
Why couldn't they have invited 4-6 survivors to make this hearing an all day affair instead of what looks like maybe 1.5 to 2.0 hours?
Not hearing from survivors is like trying to figure out how to assemble a bicycle with no wheels.
Fucking stupid IMO!
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Self-Regulation which is what the industry wants has failed miserably but since Miller, who sponsored the bill to regulate the industry is chairman of the committee, it's likely no one on that committee is going to think federal regulations aren't necessary.
So of course Natsap is going to advocate in favor of federal regulations, which will open them up to regulation, themselves.
Get it now? The good ole days when Natsap could make and play by it's own rules will be coming to an end. They are going to have to use the front door now.
:roll:
Win-win for everyone... isnt life good when you play by the rules!!
Not when they make the rules
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Full Committee and Subcommittee Schedule
Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Full Committee
Hearing on "Cases of Child Neglect and Abuse at Private Residential Treatment Facilities," scheduled at 10:30 a.m. in room 2175 Rayburn H.O.B.
Witnesses:
Greg Kutz
Managing Director
Forensic Audits and Special Investigations
Government Accountability Office
Cynthia Harvey
Mother of Child Victim
Bob Bacon
Father of Child Victim
Paul Lewis
Father of Child Victim
Allison Pinto
Research Psychologist &
Assistant Research Professor
Louis de la Parte Florida Medical Health Institute
University of South Florida
Jan Moss
Executive Director
National Association of
Therapeutic Schools and Programs
MOTHER FUCKER! I knew it . Oh why am I so not fucking surprised. No survivors.... And goddamned NATSAP is testifying to. I think i'm going to be sick.
Why is everyone so surprised about this? Who would you expect to represent the TBS industry? NATSAP is the only one fighting for regulation, improvement in the therapeutic industry, they have formed a committee and have started regulation on their own. Any decisions that are made at this hear (or as a result of this hearing) are going to directly effect them and the children they care for. They should be the firsts ones invited because they will be the ones enforcing any rules or changes in the industry and can best speak to its potential impact ot viability.
Good lord......
It must be said, I for one welcome our new yuppie scum child abusing program master overlords.
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Its today October 10, 2007, see Straight Veterans blog for information
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They won't be enforcing any rules or changes. They have no legal authority to do so, or interest, for that matter.
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Have the hearings started? I'm not getting anything on the live stream.
Edit: Never mind. Watch the hearings live (http://http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia-live/edwork/16137/300_edwork-2175stream_070124.asx)
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"Past Week's Reports and Testimonies"
http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/pastweek.html (http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/pastweek.html)
"Residential Treatment Programs: Concerns Regarding Abuse and Death in Certain Programs For Troubled Youth"
Summary....Highlights Page...Full Report
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Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Guest on October 01, 2007, 05:42:47 PM
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 01, 2007, 05:42:47 PM
Wasn't there supposed to be a hearing in September? For victims, survivors to testify before the committee?
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Che Gookin on October 01, 2007, 06:31:25 PM
There was talk of one but I believe that was an error due to miscommunication, deliberate or otherwise, on the part of Craptey.
Title: CAFETY buggers the pooch
Post by: CAFETY Weasel on October 01, 2007, 09:53:58 PM
Quote from: "Wandering Waygookin"
There was talk of one but I believe that was an error due to miscommunication, deliberate or otherwise, on the part of Craptey.
I think I've heard the same twisted tale The Wandering One has...the GAO met with a group of advocates and parents who lost their kids in programs. The GAO wanted their involvement kept on the down low so they wouldn't alert every piece of program trash to their actions.
The news of the GAO involvement made it to CAFETY, and someone couldn't control their hole and splashed the news across the CAFETY home page. Let's see, what board member of CAFETY is weasel-like, whiny, and given to acting and speaking before his brain is even in gear? Yeah, it could be more than one... if I were betting the kids' college funds, I'd put the wad down on Lombrowski.
The result of CAFETY making the GAO activities public resulted in them being flooded with people and stories. Only two investigators were supposed to handle the job, but they were overrun.
Late September has changed to late October, and I imagine the GAO is having to weed through NATSAP and ST cretins trying to botch the works by calling over and over with the same story, slightly altered each time, of little Bocephus or Irma Lou being saved from whoring, sucking that glass dick, stripping, jail and/or death and the Eternal Lake of Fire.
Thanks, CAFETY. You got the scoop, alright. Who's side are you guys on, anyway? Let Blombro screw a program counselor and he'll forget his name and purpose. Not surprising.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 03, 2007, 07:29:00 AM
http://edworkforce.house.gov/committee/schedule.shtml (http://edworkforce.house.gov/committee/schedule.shtml)
Apparently, the hearing itself was kept under wraps to everyone....this just hit the congressional committee page recently.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 03, 2007, 07:40:48 AM
I think they have a select list of victims to testify and these people have already been notified. Still, why not give people more notice so if they wanted to attend the hearing they could at least shop around for affordable airfare and hotel rates? 7 days notice is really pathetic, IMO.
:roll:
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 03, 2007, 09:36:26 AM
Wow, sounds rather subversive to me, I sure hope this isn't going to come down to special interest groups or individuals with ties to groups like Cafety or A Start. Be interesting to see who the GAO recommended testify before this committee.
Anybody planning to attend the hearings or protest agains Uncle Sam for allowing this industry to exist in the first place? Come on - it is not like people haven't been knocking on Congress's door for years - this crap goes back more than 3 decades. If I don't see any Straight or KHK, The Seed, etc. survivors on the list of people to testify, I won't be too surprised given the implications of their testimony which would clearly point a finger at our own government, not just WWASPS, Aspen, etc.
:roll:
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 03, 2007, 11:03:43 AM
looks like we're hearing about it the same time as cafety...so doesn't look like they had any insider info on it either. don't even think it's on their site yet.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 03, 2007, 05:09:12 PM
I sent email to C-span and brian lamb to let him know and maybe they will cover it on washington journal that morning and put it on their cspan network if enough people show interest.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 03, 2007, 07:20:34 PM
Where can I get a list of the people testifying or is the Committee going to keep that a secret? If so, why? I thought this was America. You know, goverment for and by the people?
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: SettleForNothingLess on October 03, 2007, 07:34:37 PM
My view on this is that Cafety either consciously or subconsciously got wind of something involving the GAo and went gung ho posting it... I dont believe the government is going to listen to us... I dont have much faith in our government... not getting started with political views here... just please dont get hopes too high. you can always hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. I doubt this is going to happen. Maybe I will be proved wrong, but thats my personal view.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Che Gookin on October 04, 2007, 01:25:45 AM
Quote from: "Guest"
Where can I get a list of the people testifying or is the Committee going to keep that a secret? If so, why? I thought this was America. You know, goverment for and by the people?
This morning when I checked the Committee page for G. Miller's Education and whatnot committee it appeared that the witness list hadn't been completely decided yet or in other words it is to be announced(TBA).
I believe they will end up doing a representative sample of the industry. Meaning they will have some survivors and they will have some industry reps. More than likely we will end up seeing some of those NATSAP shills saying their piece.
Of course I'll go on record and say that no doubt my advice to host a summary execution of any industry representative is likely to receive little attention.
Title: GAO HEarings
Post by: Guest on October 04, 2007, 08:15:39 AM
I thought I was going to be asked to testify, but was not called as a witness. Seems like there should be some way for the nonchosen to speak up. I feel like some of us are being SILENCED.
We need a voice so we can ALL be heard.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 04, 2007, 08:18:25 AM
dog and pony show anyone??
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: TheWho on October 04, 2007, 09:18:09 AM
Quote
More than likely we will end up seeing some of those NATSAP shills saying their piece.
I believe Thayer Learning center is a "Military boot camp"...... NATSAP would come out to support their own members maybe or even non members, but they would need to be therapeutic schools or programs.
I dont believe Thayer is associated with NATSAP.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 04, 2007, 09:38:54 AM
What? There's actually something you don't KNOW, Mr. Who?
I'm shocked!
Quote
I dont believe Thayer is associated with NATSAP
.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: TheWho on October 04, 2007, 09:56:48 AM
Quote from: "Guest"
What? There's actually something you don't KNOW, Mr. Who?
I'm shocked!
Quote
I dont believe Thayer is associated with NATSAP
.
Ha,Ha, Thanks for the compliment, but you would be surprised...I struggle so much with trying to resolve problems on my computer, I usually end up having my nephew stop over to clean up my mess and get me going again. But I am getting better at it.
Anyway, I checked and Thayer is a "Military boot camp" which is not associated with NATSAP.
...
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Mummie on October 04, 2007, 01:17:39 PM
WW
Does G. Miller's page show the hearing date? Thanks in advance.
Title: GAO HEarings - forum to be heard
Post by: Pitbull Mom on October 04, 2007, 04:28:31 PM
I was not asked to testify. So I've been looking for another way to be heard at the hearing about my son's death from medical negligence. I just stumbled on this page where you can share your story and have it made part of the record for the hearing. Apparently NATSAP, according to a fornits post I read, has collected many letters from people supporting their programs. This wiki is a grass roots effort started by someone named Allison Pinto to offset NATSAP'S effort. I'm including some of the Wiki here, check it out and post your story for Congress.
http://endinstitutionalabuse.wikispaces.com (http://endinstitutionalabuse.wikispaces.com)
This wiki is a virtual grass roots effort to organize and speak out. We've got less than a week...
On October 10, 2007, the Committee on Education and Labor will be holding a hearing in Congress entitled, "Cases of Child Neglect and Abuse at Private Residential Treatment Facilities."
There will be an opportunity for the presentation of written personal accounts and position statements regarding issues of mistreatment, abuse and neglect in private residential programs, to be submitted for the record. If you would like to submit a statement, letter or story to Congress, please click on the "discussion" tab above and post your letter or story.
Please note that this wikispaces site is a public site, so it is visible to anyone and everyone. Be careful to include only that information that you are comfortable sharing in the public domain.
Also, please recognize that wiki technology makes it possible for individuals to respond to one another's contributions. If you choose to respond to someone else's post, please maintain a respectful stance that honors the inherent dignity of that individual.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 04, 2007, 05:00:42 PM
That is Allison Pinto, A START, and Cafety, I think. Two orgs with dubious agendas, from what I gather. Don't forget, it's not all about the parents. They aren't the ones being institutionalized. They are the ones paying for it.
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 04, 2007, 05:29:28 PM
You can also send your letters direct to Congressman Miller or the Committee, you DO NOT NEED to go through A START or CAFETY or any third person.
:roll:
Title: GAO Hearing???
Post by: Guest on October 04, 2007, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
That is Allison Pinto, A START, and Cafety, I think. Two orgs with dubious agendas, from what I gather. Don't forget, it's not all about the parents. They aren't the ones being institutionalized. They are the ones paying for it.
Why is it people are always try to label everyone (i.e. the ones paying for it, the ones going to school). If a child needs to go to the dentist to get a tooth repaired it is not the parents who are going to be in pain although most parents wish they could trade places. It is also not the kids who are paying for it, for obvious reasons. So why is it that it seems to be such a big deal when it comes to therapy? We always hear comments: “Oh, the parents just pay for it while the kid has to go to schoolâ€
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Antigen/Ginger/Cassandra;
Some people seem to lack all sense of proportion. Doesn't the history of fornits over the past few months suggest to you (what ever your name is now) that your little crusade is over? So many of your old cronies---including Deb, Son of Serbia, Bryan Felcher, DJ, RobertBruce....off into oblivion somewhere. These folks sorta just evaporating, one by one, when their own little mini-crusades died sometimes lingering deaths?
What next for fornits, rejected by so many carriers: operate from a pirate ship off the coast of somewhere?
Bear in mind, all the deleted posts, many in which blatantly threaten me and many others are safely stored and accessible if/when the need arises.
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NATSAP will embrace the industry being regulate, accredited and having the schools abide by state and federal laws.......
Why do you think they would not?
You fool, once there is federal regulation, natsap will be out of bussiness. there will be no place for them. especially now that everyone knows they do absolutely nothing but throw cocktail parties. in other words, federal regulation will replace natsap.
and ottawa5, suck my big fat dingalingalinglong. you cant do jack shit, except eat shit. go back to your compound and tend to your daughters that are also your sisters.
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Antigen/Ginger/Cassandra;
Some people seem to lack all sense of proportion. Doesn't the history of fornits over the past few months suggest to you (what ever your name is now) that your little crusade is over? So many of your old cronies---including Deb, Son of Serbia, Bryan Felcher, DJ, RobertBruce....off into oblivion somewhere. These folks sorta just evaporating, one by one, when their own little mini-crusades died sometimes lingering deaths?
Don't worry, Ottawa, these people haven't evaprated. They've just lost touch through this particular portal. Give up? LOL, yeah, that's the American way! When the goin' gets tough we just resign ourselves to our future slavehood and slink dejectedly off to meet our grim fate. Honey, you ain't seen nothin yet!
What next for fornits, rejected by so many carriers: operate from a pirate ship Ho coast of somewhere?
Bear in mind, all the deleted posts, many in which blatantly threaten me and many others are safely stored and accessible if/when the need arises.
Now would be a good time.
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This is reposted from Google's Cache. It might be a little hard to follow conversationally, but it'll come up in searches. To do this, when you find an article missing on a google search, click the 'Cache' link near the bottom of the entry and th
I don't think that particular entry you pasted is lost. Only posts from March 10th 2008 thru about June 10 are gone.
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NATSAP will embrace the industry being regulate, accredited and having the schools abide by state and federal laws.......
Why do you think they would not?
You fool, once there is federal regulation, natsap will be out of bussiness. there will be no place for them. especially now that everyone knows they do absolutely nothing but throw cocktail parties. in other words, federal regulation will replace natsap.
and ottawa5, suck my big fat dingalingalinglong. you cant do jack shit, except eat shit. go back to your compound and tend to your daughters that are also your sisters.
Yawn.
One way that the dense among us tend to deal with feelings of inferiority (including but not limited to being undersized in the frontal lobes and most likely elsewhere) is to talk like that, you stupid moron.
Thanks for clarifying what a multi-dimensional loser you truly are.
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Antigen/Ginger/Cassandra;
Some people seem to lack all sense of proportion. Doesn't the history of fornits over the past few months suggest to you (what ever your name is now) that your little crusade is over? So many of your old cronies---including Deb, Son of Serbia, Bryan Felcher, DJ, RobertBruce....off into oblivion somewhere. These folks sorta just evaporating, one by one, when their own little mini-crusades died sometimes lingering deaths?
What next for fornits, rejected by so many carriers: operate from a pirate ship off the coast of somewhere?
Bear in mind, all the deleted posts, many in which blatantly threaten me and many others are safely stored and accessible if/when the need arises.
Just because people do not post on this board does not mean they are doing nothing you crazy bitch
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Antigen/Ginger/Cassandra;
Some people seem to lack all sense of proportion. Doesn't the history of fornits over the past few months suggest to you (what ever your name is now) that your little crusade is over? So many of your old cronies---including Deb, Son of Serbia, Bryan Felcher, DJ, RobertBruce....off into oblivion somewhere. These folks sorta just evaporating, one by one, when their own little mini-crusades died sometimes lingering deaths?
What next for fornits, rejected by so many carriers: operate from a pirate ship off the coast of somewhere?
Bear in mind, all the deleted posts, many in which blatantly threaten me and many others are safely stored and accessible if/when the need arises.
Just because people do not post on this board does not mean they are doing nothing you crazy bitch
Good point! Yes it is funny how this person assumes those people are doing nothing just because they don't post here that much. This Ottawa5 person pops in every now and then saying they're going to try to make a case out of these supposed threats. My guess is that they have nothing actionable at all and think they will win (I'm not sure exactly what) through intimidation.
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One way that the dense among us tend to deal with feelings of inferiority (including but not limited to being undersized in the frontal lobes and most likely elsewhere) is to talk like that, you stupid moron.
Thank you Anne, for defining both irony and hypocrisy so very well for us dirty fornitscators.
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Antigen/Ginger/Cassandra;
Some people seem to lack all sense of proportion. Doesn't the history of fornits over the past few months suggest to you (what ever your name is now) that your little crusade is over? So many of your old cronies---including Deb, Son of Serbia, Bryan Felcher, DJ, RobertBruce....off into oblivion somewhere. These folks sorta just evaporating, one by one, when their own little mini-crusades died sometimes lingering deaths?
What next for fornits, rejected by so many carriers: operate from a pirate ship off the coast of somewhere?
Bear in mind, all the deleted posts, many in which blatantly threaten me and many others are safely stored and accessible if/when the need arises.
Just because people do not post on this board does not mean they are doing nothing you crazy bitch
Good point! Yes it is funny how this person assumes those people are doing nothing just because they don't post here that much. This Ottawa5 person pops in every now and then saying they're going to try to make a case out of these supposed threats. My guess is that they have nothing actionable at all and think they will win (I'm not sure exactly what) through intimidation.
She's just one of those program parents that gives the whole rest of them a very bad name. She went to Mel Wasserman's CEDU parent seminars and found them a life changing experience (she also speaks highly of Landmark Forum). Correct me if I'm wrong, Anne, but afaik, you also changed your career at that point, from ??? to bat-shit crazy shrink (licensed?). So, basically she's had a little too much of the program kool-aid and this site offends her delicate sensibilities. She also whines about her personal information being posted here from time to time (not that it wasn't published elsewhere, by her, prior to that). And her name? LOL... If you say it quick, it sounds like "an ass hole", which is so very, very, fitting.
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Antigen/Ginger/Cassandra;
Some people seem to lack all sense of proportion. Doesn't the history of fornits over the past few months suggest to you (what ever your name is now) that your little crusade is over? So many of your old cronies---including Deb, Son of Serbia, Bryan Felcher, DJ, RobertBruce....off into oblivion somewhere. These folks sorta just evaporating, one by one, when their own little mini-crusades died sometimes lingering deaths?
What next for fornits, rejected by so many carriers: operate from a pirate ship off the coast of somewhere?
Bear in mind, all the deleted posts, many in which blatantly threaten me and many others are safely stored and accessible if/when the need arises.
Just because people do not post on this board does not mean they are doing nothing you crazy bitch
Good point! Yes it is funny how this person assumes those people are doing nothing just because they don't post here that much. This Ottawa5 person pops in every now and then saying they're going to try to make a case out of these supposed threats. My guess is that they have nothing actionable at all and think they will win (I'm not sure exactly what) through intimidation.
Hmmm. Now is "Teachback" the same poster as "my 2 cents", I wonder?
Or perhaps both are DJ or RobertBruce? Or any number of others who've crawled under a rock somewhere to avoid the humiliation of having postered and posted for months (make that years) on Hidden Lake Academy and elsewhere, day in and day out, with absolutely no results.
Well there are many strange people in the world, certainly, and I've not got the time or the interest in trying to sort out which clown is which. As you say, I only "pop up now every now and then", so getting into a huge and protracted back-and-forth in your down-sized play pen isn't on my to-do list.
But for those who cannot read terribly well and for the (more) paranoid present: I wasn't saying that I was going to "make a case of these supposed threats". Still, if the need to show a pattern of behavior ever arose, I'd want others who needed such information to know that the evidence still exists. Thus, my post.
Having said that, however, on the question of whether there's anything "actionable", as the current poster puts it, well, even considering the likely expansive legal knowledge he/she possesses, I'll probably take my cues on that from an attorney. Please don't get agitated about my failure to recognize your genius in this matter, current poster.
And don't feel pressured to respond, on my account, it makes no difference to me. (But if you must respond, at least make the post good---even when dialogue isn't effective, it can at least be amusing: I'll try to review it for you on a "now and then" basis some time in the reasonably near future).
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/bump
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I think this 911 bill is drowning in oil, just offshore there in the Gulf of Mexico.
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Maybe even drowning it its own hypocrisy?