Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 26, 2007, 10:47:42 PM
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just watched the movie. really good. a little incohesive, but overall it's great. more on that later, i just had an idea. we've been doing internet grassroots stuff for god knows how long and it's not working too well, we need to move into the physical domain, organize, and start doing grassroots. if you care you should help.
1. someone mentioned before about harrassing program parents, and setting up a database of adresses. that is a bad idea....but i have a better, much more legal idea. lets put together a database (sticky) of program heads, the ones running the show. the headmasters, principals, and c.e.o's. it's illegal to put down parents names - as they are private citizens. but headmasters, principals, and c.e.o's are arguably public figures. then, we put together flyers with information about their history. anyone in the vicinity can just download the flyer, make a thousand copies, and put them in all their neighbor's mailboxes, tape them to telephone poles, and give them to the local PD. when they move because their neighbors shun them, get their new adress and repeat. just make sure everything you put on the flyers is true and could not be considered slander - as in you must have either a printed source, or have a number of people willing to testify to the truth in court.
2. develop a martial art designed purely to resist restraint - how to get out of the belt loop, a four/five point restraint. etc. put training vids on youtube.
3. inform middle and high school kids that their freedom may be taken away at any moment. as mentioned in another thread, most kids simply dont belive programs as cruel as they are can exist in the united states, or elsewhere, and that parents actually send kids away. put together flyers, have your younger sibling pass it around their school, or stand outside school yourself passing it around.
anyone else have any ideas?
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Figure out how to get parents to understand how incredibly dangerous these programs are. The risk of death from residential therapeutic facilities has to be higher than any other risk for this age group.
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Not real sure about 1 & 2 - just not sure how 1 would help; and not sure if 2 is possible. Not saying it wouldn't help, or that it isn't possible - just that I am not clear on these things.
Number 3 I think would help and is possible - at least on some level.
I have often thought it would help if the kids themselves knew about these facilities, and how easily they could end up in one. It would help if they knew they have rights - up to and until they find themselves in one. For example - if they knew that the air lines wouldn't let them board if they stated they did not want to board the plane and did not wish to be in the company of the escort. Sure the escort might then put them in a car and drive them - but that would mean many more opportunities to escape or at least get a phone call or two out. It might actually help them moderate their wild side, if they knew what the consequences could be of ignoring parental pleas to settle down and stay out of trouble. For those who are dealing with an evil step parent type - maybe they would seek to live with a relative before being sent to a gulag, if they knew what the gulags were like.
I once found myself in a waiting room with a kid about 14 or so. He and I struck up a conversation. He wanted to know if I had any kids and somehow it got around to the gulag schools. By the time his mom came out he was curled up in his seat, sweater pulled up over half his face - eyes big as saucers - amazed and transfixed at what I was telling him. I am sure he never forgot it.
I would like to see survivors speaking at the schools - telling their stories - explaining the industry - educating the kids and teachers.
Not sure how to get the schools to go for it - but thats the kind of thing I'd like to see happening.
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I was thinking one night how neat it would be if survivors would give speeches at universities about the industry and their experience. I'm not sure how that could be accomplished but it would be a way to do something real that gets others involved.
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Great idea. They could start by speaking to the students/grads of "Outdoor Therapy" otherwise known as Wilderness Torture, at BYU.
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You should pass out your fliers at the roller skate park.
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1) anonymous sorta does the harassing already... setting up a D.B. (a wiki?) about these people would be VERY doable.
2) Brazilian Jiujitsu. But, well, stop watching kung fu movies - the point is to avoid being touched in the first place (evasion) and being out of a program in the first place. Part of being able to fight is being conditioned... would you say to have everyone train themselves 24/7 just in case they get sent to a program?
3) If we could notify all the kids in the USA of these places we could tell the whole USA of these places and HOPEFULLY they would help us stop it. So, awareness is a good idea regardless...
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I suspect someone might be steering you in the wrong direction. Trying to get you to waste your time. Who might want to do that?
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It might actually help them moderate their wild side, if they knew what the consequences could be of ignoring parental pleas to settle down and stay out of trouble.
http://www.bootcampvideo.com/ (http://www.bootcampvideo.com/)
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Coolio! I've only gotten this far and I have to drop a comment.
1. someone mentioned before about harrassing program parents, and setting up a database of adresses. that is a bad idea....but i have a better, much more legal idea. lets put together a database (sticky) of program heads, the ones running the show. the headmasters, principals, and c.e.o's. it's illegal to put down parents names - as they are private citizens. but headmasters, principals, and c.e.o's are arguably public figures. then, we put together flyers with information about their history. anyone in the vicinity can just download the flyer, make a thousand copies, and put them in all their neighbor's mailboxes, tape them to telephone poles, and give them to the local PD. when they move because their neighbors shun them, get their new adress and repeat. just make sure everything you put on the flyers is true and could not be considered slander - as in you must have either a printed source, or have a number of people willing to testify to the truth in court.
That's one idea. There are so, so many other things that people could do with that database! Yah just never know. We can do this fairly easily if we're smart about it. We'll want to pick the best software for easy content entry and access (Wiki?) and get as much volunteer involvement as possible for data entry. I can add that to the Fornits Care & Feeding page and throw an ad into the banner rotation.
But first, has anybody started one already? Really, all it takes is involvement and we could have a kick ass industry matrix.
k, ::read::
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I would like to see survivors speaking at the schools - telling their stories - explaining the industry - educating the kids and teachers.
Not sure how to get the schools to go for it - but thats the kind of thing I'd like to see happening.
Take a lesson from Rich Bradbury and Psy; encourage public service and school projects themed on "Defense against the dark arts". (Damn you, TSW, for blowing out that parody before I had a chance to read it! Damn you to hell!) There already exist martial arts that focus on escape. Maybe somebody familiar with martial arts could suggest a couple of the best disciplines and list that as some good advice.
While where here, I know there are a few other very good threads along these lines. Can anybody snoop some of the best ones out for inclusion in any such projects?
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I was thinking one night how neat it would be if survivors would give speeches at universities about the industry and their experience. I'm not sure how that could be accomplished but it would be a way to do something real that gets others involved.
Now you're talking speakers' bureau. Doable. Infinitely doable, just will take some time, effort and sustained interest to get the ball rolling.
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I suspect someone might be steering you in the wrong direction. Trying to get you to waste your time. Who might want to do that?
Paranoia will destroy ya. Are we sheep? Are we so easily led? Or do ya think maybe we can think for ourselves and direct our actions according to our own free will and good sense?
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Sounds like a 11 year old came up with these ideas.
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I was thinking one night how neat it would be if survivors would give speeches at universities about the industry and their experience. I'm not sure how that could be accomplished but it would be a way to do something real that gets others involved.
Now you're talking speakers' bureau. Doable. Infinitely doable, just will take some time, effort and sustained interest to get the ball rolling.
Haven't Straight survivors been out for decades now? How much time exactly does this take? 50 years?
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There already exist martial arts that focus on escape. Maybe somebody familiar with martial arts could suggest a couple of the best disciplines and list that as some good advice.
There are no martial arts that protect against a group of men that are twice your size with pepper spray, a needle of thorazine or just their bare fists.
The only person who would make this statement is someone too ignorant to know what goes on in physically violent program situations, or somebody trying to get you hurt.
Martial arts are not required to run from a program, only your legs.
Fighting a restraint is the best way to get hurt even more, anyone who has been restrained knows this.
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I suspect someone might be steering you in the wrong direction. Trying to get you to waste your time. Who might want to do that?
Paranoia will destroy ya. Are we sheep? Are we so easily led? Or do ya think maybe we can think for ourselves and direct our actions according to our own free will and good sense?
Kids are ignorant to what goes on in programs. If you feed them a bunch of tough-guy bullshit they are going to get hurt, plain and simple. If you are comfortable misleading kids into violent situations they are bound to lose, knock yourself out. I'd rather inform people based on reality than a macho fantasy.
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Rather than a whole discipline perhaps a few basic moves to survive restraints might be easier to learn.
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Wandering Waygookin you know about restraints don't you? Tell us from your experience what happens to a kid when they fight back during a restraint? Does it usually help their situation in your experience? What if any moves could a 15 year old used on you to improve their situation?
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I would like to see survivors speaking at the schools - telling their stories - explaining the industry - educating the kids and teachers.
Not sure how to get the schools to go for it - but thats the kind of thing I'd like to see happening.
Take a lesson from Rich Bradbury and Psy; encourage public service and school projects themed on "Defense against the dark arts". (Damn you, TSW, for blowing out that parody before I had a chance to read it! Damn you to hell!)
I really ought to finish that project also.
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Wandering Waygookin you know about restraints don't you?
yes.. more than I care to know.. was trained in the TCI or the Cornell Theraputic Crisis Intervention, Par, Positive Action Response, and SAMA Satori Alternative to Managing Agression.
Tell us from your experience what happens to a kid when they fight back during a restraint?
The restraints that are resisted by the youth either have more staff piled onto the kid, or the single staff resorts to more force to complete the restraint.
Does it usually help their situation in your experience?
no. Only had one kid break out of a hold in 4 years. He got up ran off and had three other staff jump on him.
What if any moves could a 15 year old used on you to improve their situation?
Be like Gandhi and don't resist violently. Comply with all directions and hope to heck they wrap it up quickly.
Don't panic..
Don't scream...
Be calm and don't demand anything.. ie.. don't demand they get off you.. or demand the police.. will only piss them off more. I you want to make a complaint or file a grievance do so after the restraint.. not try to do one during..
However, do remember to breathe calmly and smoothly.. and if you are having trouble breathing calmly ask, in a very calm manner, for staff to ease up to aid you in your breathing.
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Why not hand out to school kids credit card sized cards with important ph#s to call in the event of a program emergency? WWASP parents hand out fliers at juvennile courts to parents with kids who have legal issues. So i am thinking of the same sort of thing in reverse perhaps?
It is a shame that there is not some sort of professionally staffed 1/2 way house for kids who have run away from programs. This would give kids a chance to get on their feet and perhaps get some sort of access to medical/ counselling/ social services so that they are not just homeless etc. I always think of those girls who escaped from some sort of maternity program after an altercation with the staff and what became of their babies. How would someone go about getting funding for such a thing i wonder?
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During the Second World War the Red Cross sent relief packages to the prisoners of war held by the various nations. I suggest we pick a program to send each kid inside a package for x-mas. No contraband inside either, just some choco bars, socks, a book or two, paper, envelopes, and some stamps.
Mind you this of course should all be very carefully documented to gain media attention later..
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This is fairly easy to do but would'nt most places be suspicious about parcels from total strangers?
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One of my impractical ideas (seem to flow like water around here) was to fly over a program with leaflets saying fuck the program or something like that. I was thinking you could pay an ultralight pilot to do it or something since a lot of programs are in a rural area. I thought of this because while standing in a program one day a couple parachute airplane things flew over and it really got us all excited. Just seeing people having fun was fun.
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One of my impractical ideas (seem to flow like water around here) was to fly over a program with leaflets saying fuck the program or something like that. I was thinking you could pay an ultralight pilot to do it or something since a lot of programs are in a rural area. I thought of this because while standing in a program one day a couple parachute airplane things flew over and it really got us all excited. Just seeing people having fun was fun.
Why is this impractical? I might not say "fuck the programs" but the idea is solid.
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I suspect someone might be steering you in the wrong direction. Trying to get you to waste your time. Who might want to do that?
Paranoia will destroy ya. Are we sheep? Are we so easily led? Or do ya think maybe we can think for ourselves and direct our actions according to our own free will and good sense?
Kids are ignorant to what goes on in programs. If you feed them a bunch of tough-guy bullshit they are going to get hurt, plain and simple. If you are comfortable misleading kids into violent situations they are bound to lose, knock yourself out. I'd rather inform people based on reality than a macho fantasy.
Flight before fight.
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i think it's funny how people seem to think that resisting restraint will only get you more hurt. sure, when someone has a needle and some pepper spray you shouldnt resist, but then again very few programs still imploy thorazine and pepper spray, thats reserved for mental institutions and actual prisons. now getting away from a belt loop restraint is fairly easy, i did it when i was escorted. while they were escorting me down the stairs i threw both escorts down, jumped over the railing one flight and ran downstairs. the only thing is my mother warned them about this, and they had a big guy waiting for me downstairs who i thought twice about resisting against. bassicaly what i did was they belt looped me. i was a stair below them, so i hooked my right arm under the escorts left, and flipped it around so that my right arm was pushing into his shoulder, and my left hand was holding his hand in a contorted position. basic kinda arm lock. i could have broken his arm, but instead i kicked him down the stairs. all this took a fraction of a second. the second escort was on top of me instantly with a bear hug, all i had to do was give him a nice hammer in the balls and he was easily thrown down too.
yes, brazillian ju-jitsu is very excellent for this purpose. also look into Akido and Systema, which is what i study. stay away from any martial art that involves alot of forms (sets of moves), and relies on strikes e.g tai kwon do, kung fu, karate, boxing, all that bullshit. those only breed bad habbits which get people very hurt in real-life situations. akido and systema is good because it teaches instinctive reaction and reversal of energy, rather than just how to punch and kick, which they both have very little of.
oddly enough you would think that after that they would just handcuff me and treat me like shit till they dropped me off. but no, they were actually very respectfull after that. not neccesarily intimidated, but they knew that i was out of their control, and that the only way to make me obey was through positive reinforcement. it was pretty funny though...it was almost like they were sucking up to me.
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You should have jumped down the stairs and landed on their heads. You could have brutally killed them both. You failed!
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i think it's funny how people seem to think that resisting restraint will only get you more hurt.
Well, because historically, resisting restraint has not only gotten kids more hurt, it has resulted in their death. It depends on the kid's age, size, and ability.
There are numerous cases in which the teen resisted which resulted in more staff involved in the restraint. They don't let you up until you've stopped resisting, and then may hold you beyond that point. One serious issue is that the kid may be writhing in pain or 'fighting' to breath and that is misconstrued by staff to mean the kid hasn't yet calmed down. Staff hold no responsibility because the kid 'caused' his/her own death by continuing to resist. They actually fabricated a term for this to use in their defense following the Chase Moody killing.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=5214#5214 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=5214#5214)
It's called "Excited Delerium".
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=7950#7950 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=7950#7950)
A YouTube video is not going to prepare a young teen for resisting arrest or restraint. Let's say they see the video, sign up for marshal arts class
(in the event their parent gets the bright idea to warehouse them), and learn a few moves. The escorts come for them and they actually manage to escape the goons. What then? Where do they go? How do they live? Obviously, the older they are, the better the chances, but a young kid would have no chance.
In fact, it could land them in some remote hell hole like TB, rather than an emotionally abusive program in the US, because they are considered dangerous.
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very few programs still imploy thorazine and pepper spray, thats reserved for mental institutions and actual prisons.
TB, Paradise Cove and Peninsula Village come to mind.
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Thorazine can be prescribed for many reasons from extreme behavior problems (short term) or used to calm someone before surgery, schizophrenia I think too, but overall not a very good choice of medication in my opinion… there are so many other options available, but I can see some doctors prescribing it for special circumstances, I guess.
But why would a school need to keep pepper spray on hand? This doesn’t make any sense, what could possibly happen to justify the use of this on school grounds?
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Three Springs Waygookin, most kids in programs are not allowed to keep gifts sent to them by thier own parents. Owners, staff confiscate the gifts. Doubt if gifts from strangers would be handed out, either.
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Thorazine can be prescribed for many reasons from extreme behavior problems (short term) or used to calm someone before surgery, schizophrenia I think too, but overall not a very good choice of medication in my opinion… there are so many other options available, but I can see some doctors prescribing it for special circumstances, I guess.
But why would a school need to keep pepper spray on hand? This doesn’t make any sense, what could possibly happen to justify the use of this on school grounds?
What about NATSAP's Penninsula Village?
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Three Springs Waygookin, most kids in programs are not allowed to keep gifts sent to them by thier own parents. Owners, staff confiscate the gifts. Doubt if gifts from strangers would be handed out, either.
I'm just guessin', but I think that's why he said to document everything.
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Isn't it against the law to physically stick your hand in somebody else's mail box?
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One thing you would to deal with is giving the kid some place to go. Most kids under 18 don't have a place they can go to after they escape.
If only there was some kind of underground railroad to rescue these kids.
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Isn't it against the law to physically stick your hand in somebody else's mail box?
yes, but it's not against the law in most places to put something in the mailbox, if they have a little slot. e.g it could arguably be illegal to actually open the mailbox in a manner in which you could access their mail, as in if they had a mailbox that was just the standard box with one door. but, if you have a mailbox with a flap on top drop stuff in, but need a key to get the mail out, then you can stick a flyer in it. if they have a mail slot on their front door, you can legally stick it in, although if you dont walk away immediatly you could be tresspassing. you can also slip it under peoples door's, jam it into a crack, or just leave it on their porch.
it is standard practice everywhere i have lived in the u.s for resturants which deliver to slip menus under doors. a delivery boy comes to drop something off, and then spends the next hour or untill he gets called back through the whole complex slipping menus under every door. sometimes they are escorted out by security, but never arrested, and they come back and do it again next time they have a delivery, untill they feel the whole area is thouroughly saturated.
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If only there was some kind of underground railroad to rescue these kids.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=23407 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=23407)
start a board just for kids potentially going, through which they can get in touch with their local fornits chapter. all messages by kids looking for help will be edited to be annon and must not include personal info, then once contact is established talk can resume though PM's. this way if the kid is escaping maybe if at least he can make his way to a computer, he can find help. also maybe get a hotline, easy to remember number like 1800-FORNITS (it actually works! 7 digits!), where if kids escape they call and leave a message, where they are and how to find them. the message can be relayed to the local chapter, which will help find the means to find him/her.
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psy wrote:
What about NATSAP's Penninsula Village?
I am not very familiar with that school, but I cant see having pepper spray at any school.
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These kids have no money or ID when they escape. There would have to be something to deal with that.
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Isn't it against the law to physically stick your hand in somebody else's mail box?
I believe this is how it goes: If the mail is opened by someone other than the addressee (without their permission) after it is mailed (posted) and before it is delivered then it is a federal offense. The mail box is a holding area awaiting the recipient to receive the mail (and finalize the transaction), so it would be a federal offense to access another persons mail box for the purpose of reading their mail. But there are provisions made for minors… if a child is 1 year old I don’t think the parents need to wait 2 years or so to open a birthday card addressed to their son. They are the guardians and are allowed to open the mail for them.
Here is a statute of some type which I have not read in total: 18 USC sec. 1702
So the question is when does this guardianship expire (age 18?) and can the parents hand this responsibility off to a school? This wasnt clear to me either way when I read the requirements.
Then there is the question of delivery… is the mail considered delivered when the recipient touches the mail? I think this is the definition…so technically a staff member could deliver the mail to you and then open it to inspect it for contraband or any content which could be harmful.
Aside from what the law states (Which I have not read fully) I personally do not think it is right for a bunch of people to sit in a room and open other peoples mail and read it, period, this should never be done anywhere even at home by the parents…this should be a crime whether it is a minor or not and they should go to jail if this is what is happening. The mail should be opened in front of the recipient whether they are blind, mentally ill, sick, incapacitated or a minor and inspected with everyone present.
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You know for being a useless programme shill the who has his moments. I fully intend to test this idea in the next couple months.
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start a board just for kids potentially going, through which they can get in touch with their local fornits chapter. all messages by kids looking for help will be edited to be annon and must not include personal info, then once contact is established talk can resume though PM's. this way if the kid is escaping maybe if at least he can make his way to a computer, he can find help. also maybe get a hotline, easy to remember number like 1800-FORNITS (it actually works! 7 digits!), where if kids escape they call and leave a message, where they are and how to find them. the message can be relayed to the local chapter, which will help find the means to find him/her.
careful there, aiding and abetting...
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These kids have no money or ID when they escape. There would have to be something to deal with that.
There is more to it...
The right attitude to survive is needed also.. is the kid willing to work a series of shit jobs to provide for him or herselves? To live within their means? To keep a very low profile?
The key to the entire problem is youth... without their willingness to participate in their own liberation it is pointless.
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start a board just for kids potentially going, through which they can get in touch with their local fornits chapter. all messages by kids looking for help will be edited to be annon and must not include personal info, then once contact is established talk can resume though PM's. this way if the kid is escaping maybe if at least he can make his way to a computer, he can find help. also maybe get a hotline, easy to remember number like 1800-FORNITS (it actually works! 7 digits!), where if kids escape they call and leave a message, where they are and how to find them. the message can be relayed to the local chapter, which will help find the means to find him/her.
careful there, aiding and abetting...
And who gives a damn? Laws are meant to be broken. However, the only problem with a public number would be that it is awfully exposed to investigative scrutiny.
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From my own experience I don't think it's a lack of work ethic keeping them from leaving in most cases, from what I saw at least. Shit , we sat around dreaming about what we'd do when we got out. We spent a lot of time drooling over brochures to city college, recording engineer school, or even the army and coast guard brochures. It's a hell of a lot more fun than a wharehousin' and a brainwashin'. We had plans, yo , big plans. The problem is they sabotage you. Think what a group of adults with full control can do to a group of young, naive youth. They can fuck with them left and right. They can have them believing the fucking Earth is flat after enough time. But work ethic? Hell if the program actually DID anything it makes you willing to work your ass off for some freedom. I think that statement might be true for some spoiled rich kids living at home with their daddy-bought SUV or whatever, but most of the kids reaching 18 (the only one's this would be applicable to) were pretty determined to do something with themselves. So what kept them from leaving? Watch the WWASP documentary and you get a first hand view. That girl who turned 18 in Tranquility - Shithole Fucking - Bay , did not leave why? Because she was saying she didn't want to work McDonalds? (as if that is a concern after being forced to wipe dirty toilets with your hands and sleep on piss and throw up stained floors for days on end with limited food and water) McDonalds is a step up! A fucking country club existence compared to the SHIT these kids are wading in RIGHT NOW. So back to what's keeping them. Well who saw the wwasp documentary? I think they know the answer. The sad fucking irony of the matter is the kids who love their family are the ones who get worked over the worst. If you hate your family before getting sent away, or you come from a fucked up broken family or abusive parents you aren't going to roll over rover just to get a phone call home. This cannot be simplified down to the cliche, and untrue assumption that "today's youth are lazy". That fucking shit has been slung by evcery generation since jezus probably. What keeps the kids there is fear. Do people realize what they tell kids turning 18? They tell you your family will never talk to you again. You get maybe twenty bucks if youre lucky. They threaten you with everything under the sun. They fuck with you as much as they possibly can to see if you will break. If you don't they convince your family that it's a good idea to let you go die on the streets or sell your body to pay for food or maybe a high to numb the feeling of just being dumped from your whole previous life because of what? ditching school? smoking pot? It's fucking ridiculous. The blame cannot be put on the kids, they are worked over from day one. This is a conspiracy against them perpetrated by their family and programs. The kids are the bravest motherfuckers i've ever met. You want to see courage. Go to a program and interview the kid sitting in isolation right now and ask them why they are there. Come on Gook you can't be slinging this kind of bullshit around! :x :P Remember that scene from the wwasp documentary? That shit says it all a hell of a lot better than these letters I strung together hastily do. Anyways I still like you but man you sound like an 80 year old grandpa yelling at kids to get off his lawn or something . :rofl:
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You missed my point completely.. I'm not doubting anyones work ethics.. I'm pointing out that the sort of jobs they would have to do isn't likely to provide anyone with much of a lifestyle. How long would a kid be willing to live that sort of lifestyle would depend solely on their attitude.
Talk with ginger about the sort of gigs she worked when she bailed on Straight. It is doable just damn hard.
I have absolutely no doubt that if a kid could escape they would probably do what it takes to stay free and clear. That however is a full time job in itself for a minor.
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I don’t know if the working at McDonalds will be the big issue. The challenge will be keeping the 16 year old girl or boy away from the easy money or the lure to prostitution or dealing after trying to live off of fast food wages for a few months and missing the clothes and highschool lifestyle. The kids will need a safe place to live and thrive if they are hiding or driven underground and be protected. Many of these kids are not street wise and at age 16 they are all impressionable…it’s a big responsibility….
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I thought you were talking about a 18 year leaving since you talked about getting jobs. A minor who runs cannot have naive dreams about setting up a legitimate life since they are unemployable (ID SS WORK PERMIT) and will undoubtedly draw police attention to themselves walking around aimlessly or hitchhiking. Minors, in my opinion, have only one option if they run. To get back home safely as possible and get in contact with their friends and stay with them, and raid their own house for their stuff including their ID. From that point they could negotiate with their parents if they so chose to from a secure location that is safe. Otherwise they are going to end where kids who run away end up which is just squatting together on the street and doing stuff nobody should have to do to survive. I would not suggest a kid underage run because the entire world at this point is against them. If the kid is in a "lighter" program or whatever you call them that people seem to think exist out there, there are probably easier ways to get sent home. I would exhaust all my other tools to get out and consider running the last option. But if you are being physically, sexually or psychologically abused you can't blame a kid for running.
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I thought you were talking about a 18 year leaving since you talked about getting jobs. A minor who runs cannot have naive dreams about setting up a legitimate life since they are unemployable (ID SS WORK PERMIT) and will undoubtedly draw police attention to themselves walking around aimlessly or hitchhiking. Minors, in my opinion, have only one option if they run. To get back home safely as possible and get in contact with their friends and stay with them, and raid their own house for their stuff including their ID. From that point they could negotiate with their parents if they so chose to from a secure location that is safe. Otherwise they are going to end where kids who run away end up which is just squatting together on the street and doing stuff nobody should have to do to survive. I would not suggest a kid underage run because the entire world at this point is against them. If the kid is in a "lighter" program or whatever you call them that people seem to think exist out there, there are probably easier ways to get sent home. I would exhaust all my other tools to get out and consider running the last option. But if you are being physically, sexually or psychologically abused you can't blame a kid for running.
Good points made here..
But it is possible for younger kids to work under the table. Just requires knowledge of employers and some basic level ID.
The risks associated are extraordinary though.
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Some kids also have the option of seeking out their family which might be near the program. If the kid explains to their other family members, who are not brainashed in program seminars, they might keep the child. We've seen that situation play out on forntis a few times before. I would say that is an ideal solution. Even more ideal if the family member goes and picks the kid up before they run and possibly get a lesson in humanity they might have better done without.
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What of the parents who liked the Kool Aid so much they ship their kids right back?
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Sorry I meant to be more clear but I wasn't. I meant family who are not their immediate family and not involved in sending them away. Is it considered kidnapping if an Aunt or Uncle refuses to return a child or how about Grandparents? I know , in my case, nobody in my family other than one parent knew where I was. But I don't know any of my family. But if I did and they were spread out across America I might have lucked out and maybe a cousins house would be near me. That's kind of along the line I was thinking. A lot of parents ship their kid back. They have to wait until 18 which is unfortunate and try to keep their shit together. Some of the really sadistic parents realize they can extend it to 21 which is unthinkable yet they do it anyways. These are parents who 100% believe their child will DIE if they do not torture them. How fucked up an idea is that? It's almost as weird as parents who are proud of their children who become suicide bombers. I've seen videos of that on youtube. Technological progress doesn't seem to dampen the amount of weirdos in any given time I Think. We were sold lies, the crazy people still reign.
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You missed my point completely.. I'm not doubting anyones work ethics.. I'm pointing out that the sort of jobs they would have to do isn't likely to provide anyone with much of a lifestyle. How long would a kid be willing to live that sort of lifestyle would depend solely on their attitude.
Talk with ginger about the sort of gigs she worked when she bailed on Straight. It is doable just damn hard.
I have absolutely no doubt that if a kid could escape they would probably do what it takes to stay free and clear. That however is a full time job in itself for a minor.
The funny thing is you assume that every kid who was sent to a program is normal enough to have work ethics and "do what it takes to stay free and clear." What about a kid who refuses to work a real job, whose only experience with making money is dealing drugs, or a kid who can't wait to get high day in and day out once he's out of there?
Some of these kids will get caught and sent back right away, no matter how hard some of you might try to help them make it on their own.
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I remember kids at Three Springs having their time extended until 19 and a half years old. One of the selling points of the facility was the judges willingness to grant the parents extended custody in the state of Alabama.
No matter which way you slice the bread their is no real ideal option for a run away given their relative could easily say, "come on over" and turn right around and call the parents.
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Yes I agree the kid is pretty much screwed. Look above your post and that shows the typical foaming mouth negative assumption program parent that these kids are dealing with. I feel sorry for these kids having to return to a home where that is your only adult figure in your life. An adult who thinks you are a piece of shit drug dealer who is no good. That's why I respect program staff more than the parents who sent their kids away. At least they were there. At least they fucking did something. Took the punches, took the shit and kept their head up and came back to work everyday. You can respect that. I find it hard to respect a parent who sends their child away, along with the negative assumptions displayed here. To a parent expressing these kinds of doubts in a child at that age is detrimental and they might actually be better off ina boarding school than around a parent exuding such negativity. The conspiracy against the kids starts with the parents and they are colluding with the program owners and the intellectuals of the programs, the seminar heads, the therapists, the group leaders. Sometimes this is the owner or the owner's family. Some programs have little parent interaction when the parents are genuinely fooled. But this foaming-at-the-mouth parent strikes me as a fan of WWASP. A program where the parents can become intimately involved and rise up the hierarchy like the thought extinct Lifespring program. This is the kind of parent who can't just stop being a program fanatic after a year or two of fuckiing their own child over. They will continue to do it to hundreds of other people's kids because they become addicted to the power of judging others and inflicting their punishment. It is a powerful toxin these parents and program folks are ingesting. We just got a small glimpse into the mind of such darkness and negativity, a parent ready to spew their blood ridden bile on whomever crosses their negative assumptions about their own offspring. Let us pray for their children. If we pray for anything let it be them.
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I worked with a variety of kids. Some had what it took to take care of themselves and some didn't. But I think pressure to survive can bring out the strengths in us more often than we think. The only thing we can do is give them a chance. What they do with the chance is up to them.
That alone is 100 times more than what they will get from their program.
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yes, but it's not against the law in most places to put something in the mailbox, if they have a little slot. e.g it could arguably be illegal to actually open the mailbox in a manner in which you could access their mail, as in if they had a mailbox that was just the standard box with one door. but, if you have a mailbox with a flap on top drop stuff in, but need a key to get the mail out, then you can stick a flyer in it. if they have a mail slot on their front door, you can legally stick it in, although if you dont walk away immediatly you could be tresspassing. you can also slip it under peoples door's, jam it into a crack, or just leave it on their porch.
It is a federal offense to put anything in anyone's mailbox, no matter what style it is. If they catch you, you can be charged for the postage you cheated them out of, plus be fined.
Ever wonder why newspapers aren't put in mailboxes, or why you sometimes see a seperate tube for them? Because NO one can put anything in a mailbox other than a postal employee.
You could attach them to the door handle with a rubber band as solicitors do.
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what if the kid went to a shelter like covenant house? would they turn them in?
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what if the kid went to a shelter like covenant house? would they turn them in?
That is a damn good question. Why don't you call and ask? I'd really love to know the answer.
Seriously.. I'd call myself but ummm lols.. I'm in the middle of Asia.
please give em a call.. I think they have a toll free number.
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Death sentence for parents sending their kids to programs on fornits shit list (if there isn't one, then fucking make one.) No questions asked.
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Some kids also have the option of seeking out their family which might be near the program. If the kid explains to their other family members, who are not brainashed in program seminars, they might keep the child. We've seen that situation play out on forntis a few times before. I would say that is an ideal solution. Even more ideal if the family member goes and picks the kid up before they run and possibly get a lesson in humanity they might have better done without.
This can be a thorny issue for the wider family.On one hand is the idea that a parent should educate their child however they see fit, which makes the wider family very reluctant to intervene. But yes I would recommend a kid find a sympathetic relative who can harbour them and try to help negotiate some sort of peaceful and safe solution with the parents
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Yes I agree the kid is pretty much screwed. Look above your post and that shows What about a kid who refuses to work a real job, whose only experience with making money is dealing drugs, or a kid who can't wait to get high day in and day out once he's out of there?
I think if you are going to set up a system of helping kids out you need to be open minded and expect there will be all kinds, those who want to work, those who dont, those who just want to deal drugs, those who are motivated etc. You need to think thru all the possibilities. I had a friend who paid for most of his college tuition by dealing drugs and he refused to work at fast food places. Kids come in all shapes and sizes, they are not all alike and you need to be prepared for that.
If you are going to take in kids you need to define the conditions of who or what you are able to handle:
Kids who dont want to work
Kids who were previously involved in prostitution
Kids who are on special medication (diabetics, depression), how will you get the drugs for them.
Kids who are violent
Kids who are under aged and scared
Kids who need special diets.
Do you select the types of kids you take in? or take them all and hope for the best.
When they dug escape tunnels in Germany, they knew they couldn’t take the 400 lb guy or some of the mentally ill people or those with claustrophobia etc. they needed to be selective on who went to insure success.
Anyway I am rambling...my point is that the question the guest asked was a good one and you need to be open minded enough and secure enough to accept input from everyone...you need to explore all the possibilities of how it can fail before you can implement a system which will be successful.
...
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we would take in children under the assuption that they are Human Beings. if they fail to act as such, they shall be dismissed.
the only real issue is medication and diet. the kid should think about these things beforehand. diabetes is not a problem because so many people have it, getting a temporary supply of insulin is very easy.
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aiding and abetting minors, securing medical treatment for minors?
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it's not aiding and abetting if the parents dont press charges. the only thing illegal the kids would be doing is running away, usually from an abusive situation. if the kid doesnt do anything else illegal, the only possible negative legal outcome would be that if he is reported as a runaway, and is picked up by the cops, he'll be held untill his parents/the school picks them up. if the kid had help, the parents can potentially charge kidnapping, but the chances of that would be slim to none, as there would not be any case. the kid would come looking for help out of his own free will, and we would not be holding him against his will (unlike the program).
of course there are legal loopholes through which you could potentially be prosecuted, any self-respecting lawyer would be able to get a case like this dropped in 2 seconds flat. (by self-respecting i mean not state appointed)
just make sure you dont give kids any drugs, have sex with them, or help them with any illegal activity, actually make sure that one of the terms of you helping them is if they abstain from all illegal or even questionable activity themselves, with or without you. By helping kids, I mean strictly provide food, a roof over their head, some clean clothes, medical treatment, emotional support, and help with negatiating with the parents to pull the kid out, or help the kid get in touch with other family members who take take him in instead.
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it's not aiding and abetting if the parents dont press charges.
This is actually incorrect, it is a crime whether or not the parents get involved, here is one definition:
Where available, aiding and abetting liability generally requires three elements: 1) an underlying violation by a principal; 2) knowledge of that violation and/or the intent to facilitate the violation; and 3) assistance to the principal in the violation.
the only thing illegal the kids would be doing is running away, usually from an abusive situation. if the kid doesnt do anything else illegal, the only possible negative legal outcome would be that if he is reported as a runaway, and is picked up by the cops, he'll be held untill his parents/the school picks them up. if the kid had help, the parents can potentially charge kidnapping, but the chances of that would be slim to none, as there would not be any case. the kid would come looking for help out of his own free will, and we would not be holding him against his will (unlike the program).
of course there are legal loopholes through which you could potentially be prosecuted, any self-respecting lawyer would be able to get a case like this dropped in 2 seconds flat. (by self-respecting i mean not state appointed)
just make sure you dont give kids any drugs, have sex with them, or help them with any illegal activity, actually make sure that one of the terms of you helping them is if they abstain from all illegal or even questionable activity themselves, with or without you. By helping kids, I mean strictly provide food, a roof over their head, some clean clothes, medical treatment, emotional support, and help with negatiating with the parents to pull the kid out, or help the kid get in touch with other family members who take take him in instead.
This is not very good advice, sorry to butt in….. if you take in a child that has run away from the people or school or institution that is legally caring for that child and you fail to report it to the authorities in a reasonable time frame (within hours) then you will go to jail..period. The minute you decide not to call the authorities you have taken a huge conscience step to kidnap this child and if anything ever happens to that child, i.e. falls off a skate board, down the steps, bad reaction to peanuts, you would go to a federal prison.
If you feel a child is being abused, you may feel an obligation to take the child in and get them to a safe area at which time you need to notify the authorities. If you don’t you are putting yourself and family at a huge risk… if the families do not sue you may do only jail time…if they do sue you you could lose your home and most of your liquid assets.
If you are talking about kids who are over 18 then you may be okay in many cases.
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Shut the fuck up Who. Nobody on this forum believes what you spout anyway.
Real advice:
Don't let the fucking kid be found. Let him pick another name. Completely alter his identity. If you have the resources to get fake ID use them, but don't rely on it. Ideally no one should be even asking who he is.
He shouldn't contact his parents, or anyone else, until well after he's 18 and lives far from you. If his family thinks he's dead so much the better.
Hiding someone properly, especially a teenager, while letting them have a semblance of a normal life takes panache and skill.
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I would want to encourage the kid to try and keep in contact with the family where possible. Not just the parents either. Therefore i would have them ring mum and dad to let them know they are OK and hopefully to set some kind of communication pattern in place. I would not put them back at risk by sending them home as people have told me that this has usually landed a kid back in a program. But cutting yourself off from your own family all together is an extreme action that needs to considered extremely carefully.
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Don't be a fucking idiot Oz Girl.
You know what happens? The parents lie. The program tells them to lie. Then they start trying to trace communications. They tell pleasant-sounding lies like "we won't ever try to send you away if you come back", "we hope you'll forgive us", etc.
The kid cannot trust them. They are no longer his family. Attempting to keep them in contact is a one-way ticket to hell. Ideally his first contact with them will be when he's 18 and suing them.
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Don't be a fucking idiot Oz Girl.
You know what happens? The parents lie. The program tells them to lie. Then they start trying to trace communications. They tell pleasant-sounding lies like "we won't ever try to send you away if you come back", "we hope you'll forgive us", etc.
The kid cannot trust them. They are no longer his family. Attempting to keep them in contact is a one-way ticket to hell. Ideally his first contact with them will be when he's 18 and suing them.
Most people here on fornits are fighting to get the schools to provide more communication between the students and their parents. To cut off or further limit their contact would be a huge step backwards........
Sounds like you may have had a bad experience with your family and I am sorry for that, but most families are not that way…they are supportive of each other. Sure the parents will want to insure their child is safe and will need some sort of assurance that this is so or they will attempt to track them down to help them… you need to be very careful and understand your intent and the child’s wishes, you should encourage the contact between the child and parents as soon as possible.
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Ideally his first contact with them will be when he's 18 and suing them.
IDEALLY?
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Legal Rights and Options for Runaway Teens
http://www.lsc-sf.org/publications/runa ... evised.pdf (http://www.lsc-sf.org/publications/runaway_2003_revised.pdf)
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things would be handled on a case by case basis. there shouldnt be a step system where every kid gets the same treatment. different kids have different families and situations.
more often than not there are family members who dissaprove of the kid getting sent away but cant and dont do anything about it. i'm sure after a little educational session about program X they would be willing to side with the kid.
we may need a lawyer specializing in family issues like custody to work probono for us. i'm sure with enough searching we'll find a lawyer with good intentions. and custody laws can be very flexible, remember, steven tyler legally got custody of an underage girl he had a sexual relationship with.
and dont forget, a kid can always move for emancipation.
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Shut the fuck up Who. Nobody on this forum believes what you spout anyway.
Real advice, but not your only option:
Don't let the fucking kid be found. Let him pick another name. Completely alter his identity. If you have the resources to get fake ID use them, but don't rely on it. Ideally no one should be even asking who he is.
He shouldn't contact his parents, or anyone else, until well after he's 18 and lives far from you. If his family thinks he's dead so much the better.
Hiding someone properly, especially a teenager, while letting them have a semblance of a normal life takes panache and skill.
I would only recommend this if your life is already in danger.
And fact is, most of theWho's post info is accurate :oops:...
this time
Guest wrote:
...remember, steven tyler legally got custody of an underage girl he had a sexual relationship with.
okay. I'm dense. WTF is that about?!
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This information tells you only about how to be declared emancipated by a judge. If you want to be declared emancipated by a judge, you must convince the judge that you meet ALL of the following requirements:
You are at least 14 years old.
You willingly want to live separate and apart from your parents with the consent or acquiescence of your parents. (Your parents do not object to you living apart from them.) You can manage your own finances.
You have a source of income that does not come from any illegal activity.
Emancipation would not be contrary to your best interests; it is good for you.
Requirements for Legal Emancipation.
Who pays the attorney and legal fees?
Parental involvment/consent is still required.
A Judge must rule emancipation is in the child's "best interest."
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This forum is about reality, Who; get the fuck out.
This is actually a matter of philosophy, making me think that perhaps Who's only point is to play the fool in a Platonian dialogue.
"Well, they might have tried to send me away then, but my parents will want me back now, right?", a teen may ask.
Wrong! They might or might not send you away again. You cannot trust your parents at all, even after you are able to legally tell them to go fuck themselves. The only time you will be able to truly trust them is posthumously. From this point on everything is warfare. If they have any clue of your location they will use it against you. Best not to talk to them at all. Faking your own suicide is an option but hard to pull off properly. A way to do this right is to take a boat over a large body of water, state (on a cellphone you can afford to lose) that you've tied a concrete block to yourself, and then actually jump into the water for the correct-sounding splash. Leave phone in water, get back in boat, laugh. Tossing in concrete blocks tied to shoes will give the cops something to find.
Making your way to other relatives might work but make sure you actually trust them to hide you properly.
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The only time you will be able to truly trust them is posthumously
HUH?
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Don't have the kid call home. They need to disappear until they turn 18.
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Don't have the kid call home. They need to disappear until they turn 18.
Well.. my thinking on it is give the kid the option. Though if he or she does want to call home they can do it from a pay phone. No way I'd want that call being traced back to my house.
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But you'd be just fine with it traced back to your city or state?
:roll:
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I'm not the one being traced now am I?
That is a risk the kid will have to take. Mind you I'd suggest they make the call with a calling card as the pay phone would call the calling card company first and then the calling card company would call the parents house. Hence making it all the more difficult to trace.
I still wouldn't let the kid call home from my place though.
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what if someone just flat-out refused the strip-search and physical at intake?
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I'm not sure what would happen. Depends on the facility I guess. I'd venture to say some would search the youth by force and others would just wait him or her out.
It all depends on the programme.
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what if someone just flat-out refused the strip-search and physical at intake?
at lockdowns, they just restrain you and force you.
at lower-level, "hands off" programs, like HLA, they just send you to wilderness (rci in hla's case), where they can hold you down and force you. and if you resist at a place like r.c.i, they "look the other way", while a staff whips you into submission. and if you still dont submit, they tell your parents that you are "totally out of control and a danger to himself and others", after which your parents are likely to send you to an even worse place like 3springs, P.V, some kids even got reccomended to be transferred to T.B or casa by the sea, where they ended up staying waaaay past their 18th birthday.
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At 3 springs we told the kids HLA was the worst place to be.
Again some I will do it by force, others will wait you out and treat it as a simple refusal.
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what if you told the physician or whoever it is who does the routine physical that you were raped by the staffer who did the strip search (even if isn't true) - they'd be a mandatory reporter - once the cops are there you could make stuff up (or tell true stories) about your parents abusing you and by law they'd hafta investigate - could that stall the placement?
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At 3 springs we told the kids HLA was the worst place to be.
LOL at HLA they told us 3 springs was the worst place to be inside mainland u.s.a save prison.
this shows alot about how programs are run, eh?
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what if you told the physician or whoever it is who does the routine physical that you were raped by the staffer who did the strip search (even if isn't true) - they'd be a mandatory reporter - once the cops are there you could make stuff up (or tell true stories) about your parents abusing you and by law they'd hafta investigate - could that stall the placement?
I wouldn’t encourage kids doing this anymore than they presently are. This is already a big problem at some of these schools. Kids that do this are doing a huge disservice to the kids who have been raped or are really sick. Each time there is a false report or false alarm the response time gets slower and slower and the reports less and less credible, its just human nature. Imagine if every child in your local high school claimed they were being abused by a particular teacher and it turns out that each time it is because they want to get out of doing their homework or detention. After a handful of these reports turning up false if a child was abused they would have a hard time getting someone to believe them.
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what if you told the physician or whoever it is who does the routine physical that you were raped by the staffer who did the strip search (even if isn't true) - they'd be a mandatory reporter - once the cops are there you could make stuff up (or tell true stories) about your parents abusing you and by law they'd hafta investigate - could that stall the placement?
I wouldn’t encourage kids doing this anymore than they presently are. This is already a big problem at some of these schools. Kids that do this are doing a huge disservice to the kids who have been raped or are really sick. Each time there is a false report or false alarm the response time gets slower and slower and the reports less and less credible, its just human nature. Imagine if every child in your local high school claimed they were being abused by a particular teacher and it turns out that each time it is because they want to get out of doing their homework or detention. After a handful of these reports turning up false if a child was abused they would have a hard time getting someone to believe them.
Who, what do you mean by "anymore than they presently are"? Are you trying to justify kids getting abused and dying in these shitpits that you love so much.
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shutup the who. must i say it again? your an idiot. just like johnny ringo, you try to make it seem like you know what you're talking about but 99% of the time you dont have the slightest clue, and further make yourself sound like and idiot.
the boy who cried wolf story doesnt apply here.
if every kid started claiming they were getting raped at the strip searches, regardless of weather or not they are truly being raped, just feel like they are, or have a grudge, it would hint to the cops that there really IS something going on, and that saying they are getting raped seems to be the only way they can cry out for help. then the cops would investigate WHY these kids are constantly crying rape, and when they get their answer, they'll come knocking with a swat team and social services.
technically, these kids ARE getting raped on a daily basis, though not by the legal definition. they are getting raped mentally and emotionally. they are being raped and robbed of all independant thought and resemblance to a normal childhood they could have had.
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what if you told the physician or whoever it is who does the routine physical that you were raped by the staffer who did the strip search (even if isn't true) - they'd be a mandatory reporter - once the cops are there you could make stuff up (or tell true stories) about your parents abusing you and by law they'd hafta investigate - could that stall the placement?
I wouldn’t encourage kids doing this anymore than they presently are. This is already a big problem at some of these schools. Kids that do this are doing a huge disservice to the kids who have been raped or are really sick. Each time there is a false report or false alarm the response time gets slower and slower and the reports less and less credible, its just human nature. Imagine if every child in your local high school claimed they were being abused by a particular teacher and it turns out that each time it is because they want to get out of doing their homework or detention. After a handful of these reports turning up false if a child was abused they would have a hard time getting someone to believe them.
Who, what do you mean by "anymore than they presently are"? Are you trying to justify kids getting abused and dying in these shitpits that you love so much.
No, I was saying “Lets not encourage this any furtherâ€
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shutup the who. must i say it again? your an idiot. just like johnny ringo, you try to make it seem like you know what you're talking about but 99% of the time you dont have the slightest clue, and further make yourself sound like and idiot.
the boy who cried wolf story doesnt apply here.
if every kid started claiming they were getting raped at the strip searches, regardless of weather or not they are truly being raped, just feel like they are, or have a grudge, it would hint to the cops that there really IS something going on, and that saying they are getting raped seems to be the only way they can cry out for help. then the cops would investigate WHY these kids are constantly crying rape, and when they get their answer, they'll come knocking with a swat team and social services.
technically, these kids ARE getting raped on a daily basis, though not by the legal definition. they are getting raped mentally and emotionally. they are being raped and robbed of all independant thought and resemblance to a normal childhood they could have had.
Actual call (a year from now):
Bimbelly police: Car 992, we have another reported rape up at TBS, can you handle it?
Car992: Wow, 3rd one today, horny bunch up on the hill there aren’t they? Yea, I am in the middle of break, but I can swing over. Need any donuts back at the station?
Bimbelly police: All set thanks, god help the kid that really does get raped or sexually assaulted up there. They will never get justice, no one will ever believe the poor kid.
Car992: Yeah it’s a shame, these kids don’t realize the danger they are putting themselves in with these stories. Black coffee good?
Bimbelly police: Black is good, maybe a donut if you are getting one for yourself. Leave TBS some of the blank forms so they can start the paperwork themselves before we send someone out, maybe we can start batching some of these trips on intake days.
Car992: That’s a 10-4
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what if someone just flat-out refused the strip-search and physical at intake?
Good question, the places that I am familiar with and thru people I have spoken with the children are allowed to wait it out until they feel more comfortable or an alternative solution is proposed.
The children are never forced to take their clothes off or taken off by force. Does anyone know if programs still exist that do this?
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Yeah. They're run by Aspen Education Group.
People TheWho thinks he's fooling: 10^3
People TheWho is actually fooling: 10^0 (Himself.)
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Making a false report only works if the youth is examined by a doctor upon intake. More often than not the youth already has had some sort of examination by their own general practicioner prior to entering the programme. However, manditory reporters must, by state law, report these incidents to the the appropriate authorities.
How long this would delay an intake is debateable. Typically what happens is the staff is sent home with pay while the incident is investigated. They youth's intake into the program would not likely be halted.
I've witnessed two examples of the police coming to investigate a report on the Florida State Abuse hotline. Both examples ended with the investigator asking a few questions and then telling the boy involved that he should cooperate more with the programme.
Another incident reported by a PV captive indicated that the state investigator , who came twice on the prompting of the young lady's parents, didn't seem to believe the veracity of her claims of abuse.
Clearly the odds are stacked against the youth when using this forum of delaying tactic.
I strongly suggest just laying down on the sidewalk and refusing to move as soon as the escorts come for you. Keep on refusing every step of the way. At the programme refuse to get out of the car. Refuse to comply with any part of the programme.. keep on refusing. The sooner you do it, while your anger against your parents minimizes the risk of the programme using them to manipulate you, the better.
Refusals, in my experience, are the most difficult thing a programme can face. I mean you really can't justify a restraint on a kid refusing to move. Just becareful not to act out in anyway by using violent actions or language.
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what if someone just flat-out refused the strip-search and physical at intake?
Good question, the places that I am familiar with and thru people I have spoken with the children are allowed to wait it out until they feel more comfortable or an alternative solution is proposed.
The children are never forced to take their clothes off or taken off by force. Does anyone know if programs still exist that do this?
Dude, do you not read what people post on this site? The answer is yes they still exist.
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what if someone just flat-out refused the strip-search and physical at intake?
Good question, the places that I am familiar with and thru people I have spoken with the children are allowed to wait it out until they feel more comfortable or an alternative solution is proposed.
The children are never forced to take their clothes off or taken off by force. Does anyone know if programs still exist that do this?
Dude, do you not read what people post on this site? The answer is yes they still exist.
Hanzo, it is not always clear, sometimes we may be discussing procedures and stripe searches only to find out the places have closed or the person is talking about their experience 10 -30 years ago. So it is actually unclear to me if there are TBS's (today) which will force a child to the floor..... restrain them and tear their clothes off and submit them to a cavity check. I guess you are right, all kinds of places exist but I think we need to identify which ones so that we can pass this information on to the parents. Some parents may not want this for their kids.
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at the program i was at if you decided to refuse to move, theyd wrap you up really tight in a really thick, itchy dirty blanket, and just leave you there till you just cant stand it anymore. the longest i've seen anyone last in it was about 4 hours, then they started freaking out.
another technique they'd use is group punishment, particularly on restrictions or in wilderness. if one person on restriction refused, the entire group would have to do p.t untill that person changed their mind. when all your buddies are doing hundreds of pushups, and youre just sitting there, and the reason there doing pushups is because you're just sitting there, the whole group starts getting pissed at you, and you start feeling guilty. if the guilt doesnt get to you, the soapbarsocks will later that night. it puts the kid in quite a predicament, and almost always the kid joins in on the pushups nearly right away.
in wilderness, we had a kid refuse. we were in the middle of nowhere, it was nearly 4:00 and were about 3 miles away from the camp for the night; and this kid just sits down and refuses, starts crying "i wanna go home". the counselors said the group has to move as a whole, that no one can be left behind, and that we are camping at the predetermined site no matter what. the school has a "no night hike" policy, and it was pouring rain. the counselors said that unless we get the kid to move ourselves, we'd be sleeping on the trail in ponchos. (for those of you not in the know, you know those old school really big vietnam-era rain ponchos? you can make a little one person shelter out of them. but they suck - they dont have a bottom, they leak, and you have to sleep curled up, sitting up, or leaning against a tree and if you move the slightest bit you can knock the whole thing down). so given the situation, the group harrased the shit out of the kid, one nice person decided to carry the kids bag, and he started moving. there wasnt a single complaint out of him the rest of the trip.
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Guest, what program was this? And when did these abuses happen?
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Hanzo, it is not always clear, sometimes we may be discussing procedures and stripe searches only to find out the places have closed or the person is talking about their experience 10 -30 years ago. So it is actually unclear to me if there are TBS's (today) which will force a child to the floor..... restrain them and tear their clothes off and submit them to a cavity check. I guess you are right, all kinds of places exist but I think we need to identify which ones so that we can pass this information on to the parents. Some parents may not want this for their kids.
yes, many places they talk about did close down 10-30 years ago. but what does that have to do with places which strip search now? your logic a tragically flawed. nearly every wilderness and tbs strip searches, still. i thought it was common knowledge. there are only a handfull of schools in the industry that dont, (correct me if i'm wrong) hyde, king george and most of the "step-down"/"emotional growth" schools dont stripsearch. i know even the outwardbound "troubled teen" division performs of search of sorts, but with underwear still on. it's all a matter of how the stripsearch is performed. i dont think there's many places where they still stick a finger in your butt and use a flashlight to look inside, but nearly all TBS's and lockdowns still stripsearch. hidden lake academy's procedure is as follows:
2 staff take you into a room alone. they maintain a distance of at the closest 2 feet at all times. first you take off your shoes, and socks, they take them apart and inspect them. then goes the shirt, they inspect the seams and pockets, then you have to hold your arms over your head and do a 360. they give back your shirt, and you put it back on. then you take off your pants, and they look through the pockets, seams, etc, and then take off the underwear. the staff look away, you cup your balls, and squat n cough. the staff figures if theres anything up there it'll fall on the floor with a proper cough. then staff leave and you put you clothes back on. [/quote]
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And, as cited in the Complaint, Hidden Lake Academy didn't inform parents that they were conducting strip searches. If it's not on the website, if it's not in the parent manuals, how are parents to know which programs do and which don't?
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what would they do if someone refused to take their underpants off?
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Guest, what program was this? And when did these abuses happen?
hidden lake academy, and ridge creek respectively, between '01 and 04'.
i only saw the blanket empoyed once with my own eyes, when it took 4 hours. but i've heard about it being used many, many times, usually happens around christmas break when i was never around, though they seemed to use it less in the later years. the kids who stay on campus tend to get pretty depressed and 1-2 kids usually decide to refuse to get out of bed at some point.
group punishment was not always employed, there actually existed a policy against that, but certain staff were big fans of it and still used it constantly, particularly rob hyde and klee hall. if the kid continued to refuse or flip out, there were a number of other options. Chynaa M*****ler, the queen of flipping out and refusing, spent many a weekends sitting all alone in the hot sun in the middle of the basketball court, right by the overflowing sewer, with her food delivered to her 3x a day; with a staff member comfortably watching her every move from the lodge at the top of the hill.
Lee parham, master manipulator, would often be the person to come and see you if you refused. the man was a master at mind tricks and messing with kid's heads. very few kids were able to resist his tactics.
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what would they do if someone refused to take their underpants off?
they'd send you to ridge creek where they are allowed to take them off for you.
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what if someone just flat-out refused the strip-search and physical at intake?
Good question, the places that I am familiar with and thru people I have spoken with the children are allowed to wait it out until they feel more comfortable or an alternative solution is proposed.
The children are never forced to take their clothes off or taken off by force. Does anyone know if programs still exist that do this?
Dude, do you not read what people post on this site? The answer is yes they still exist.
Hanzo, it is not always clear, sometimes we may be discussing procedures and stripe searches only to find out the places have closed or the person is talking about their experience 10 -30 years ago. So it is actually unclear to me if there are TBS's (today) which will force a child to the floor..... restrain them and tear their clothes off and submit them to a cavity check. I guess you are right, all kinds of places exist but I think we need to identify which ones so that we can pass this information on to the parents. Some parents may not want this for their kids.
You asked if kids are still forced to take their clothes off, the answer is yes in every program that requires a strip search. Like others have said they could use "positive" peer pressure, torture, or some just hold them down and strip them. Point is, regardless of tactic, the child is forced to strip.
I'm sure that in TBS it's more mind fuckery as opposed to brute force, does that answer your question?
Edited: to remove needless who bait
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By no means is refusal an easy route as the guest so aptly pointed out in his/her post. It far more effective than one might think it is. To suceed at it though you have to be willing to go the distance.
*They will use peer pressure.
*The will threaten you with consquences.
*They will use your parents against you.
*They will threaten you with a harsher programme.
This is just the beginning of the list. However, what most people forget is that the power of refusal works the best against not the staff, but the parents. Imagine the phone calls they are getting whilst you are parked on your butt somewhere ignoring everyone around you. The first few weeks of the programme are the ones where your parents are the weakest.
Exploit it to the fullest and set yourself free.
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By no means is refusal an easy route as the guest so aptly pointed out in his/her post. It far more effective than one might think it is. To suceed at it though you have to be willing to go the distance.
*They will use peer pressure.
*The will threaten you with consquences.
*They will use your parents against you.
*They will threaten you with a harsher programme.
This is just the beginning of the list. However, what most people forget is that the power of refusal works the best against not the staff, but the parents. Imagine the phone calls they are getting whilst you are parked on your butt somewhere ignoring everyone around you. The first few weeks of the programme are the ones where your parents are the weakest.
Exploit it to the fullest and set yourself free.
I like the idea, but I don't think any kid, no matter how firm their resolve, would have made it through a CEDU-style rap (which is the template for quite a few facilities) and remain silent, especially once they are onto your "game" and realize that you are playing the silent treatment. That kid would be dust in days. i'm not saying it's not doable, I'm saying that I think it would require a discipline not found in your usual teenager. Fuck, you'd have to have at least some experience or belief in zen meditation.
Then, of course, because you aren't speaking up, they'll put you on some form of isolated physical labor. All day... every day... rain, snow, ice, heat... until you "get it" Maybe they will isolate you from the student body. You can't talk to any friends you may have made there. The pressure in raps/groups reaches boiling points to get you to talk. You are put on some sort of restriction where you can't leave your area, or smile, or hug, or sing. They take away your cigarettes, they put you in a jumpsuit while you work, or just keep you in a dog cage, (for the WWASPies who got the worst of the gulag treatment, IMO.)
The parents will be getting calls like "We had to put him on a work detail so he could learn a little bit more about himself..." or "He's very angry right now, but making great strides in therapy."
So... which is going to run out first? A teenager's resolve to remain uncomfortable, isolated and suffering (which, as a resister, is infinitely worse than a follower)? or... the mounds of bullshit a program will tell the parents about their child's progress (or lack thereof) to placate them and make them think they sent their kid to the right place?
Who is going to give out first?
Tick tock, Clarice, can you keep that lamb from screaming?
I carved on my arm and got on a restriction *AS* my parents were coming up to visit me. The staff headed them off in Sandpoint and told them flat out that they couldn't see me because I had gotten into trouble. What did my parents do? Those stupid fuckers actually turned around and went back home. I bet the staff even told them that I had carved on myself too. Wouldn't that make you concerned enough to come see your child? To the point where you would say "I don't care what you are telling me, I am seeing my kid right now." But no, they bought the line that it was in my best interest, and turned around, after traveling from completely the other side of the country and said "Welp, that was disappointing." And don't get me wrong, they *were* sad that they couldn't see me, but they were also *stupid*! It never occurred to them that they could simply call bullshit on advice which was being given to them by a facility that they were pumping thousands of dollars into every month.
In short... don't underestimate a troubled parent's stubbornness... or ignorance. It can outlast a teenager's any day, especially if there is money involved. Because of course, high price *must* equal high quality. If I'm paying this much, they must know better than I.
The way I see it, there are two choices.
1. Try to tough it out any way you know how until you "graduate" or your parents come to their senses and pull you.
2. Get the fuck out of there and hide out in a group home until you are 18.
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More than being strong willed.. the kid has to know what to do in the first place. All of this speculation is pointless without the information getting into the hands of those who may end up as captives.
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In short... don't underestimate a troubled parent's stubbornness... or ignorance. It can outlast a teenager's any day, especially if there is money involved. Because of course, high price *must* equal high quality. If I'm paying this much, they must know better than I.
Absolutely right. But there is another factor that shouldn't be ignored or minimized - the brain washing of the parents. It is very real and very effective. Incredibly so.
I recently had a conversation with a couple program moms. It was a longish conversation, with plenty of program jargon being tossed out at me. (gave me the creepiest sorta flash backs) but there were a couple examples of their brainwashing that really stood out.
They tried to insist that their daughters were not coerced into attending the seminars. But of course they are - NO they say - they can opt out! One insisting: My daughter did opt out the first time! She went on to explain that if she opted out repeatedly, eventually she would be pulled with out attending. They would only keep her there 18 months or so - no longer.
Does she know that? I asked
Of Course not! the mom exclaims.
So, I say; for all she knows, she is there for how ever long it takes to graduate. In fact, I am sure you've told her she is there until she graduates - haven't you? So, for all she knows, she has no choice but to attend the seminars if she ever wants out of there. That is coercion.
No they both insist - they can opt out. . . and so it went.
The next example upset me far more. We were discussing the inevitable "deadorinjail" issue. That got thrown at me with some force - they'd both be deadorinjail with out the program. So, I tried to get them to acknowledge that death wasn't nearly as certain as they believed. They countered with their daughters had written them admitting they'd have been deadorinjail with out the program. But they've experienced the same thought reform you have, I tried to explain. I pointed out the general recklessness of the teen years and the thankfully low teen death statistics as some indication that their daughters were not nearly as sure to die as they had been conditioned to believe.
They then countered with how awful jail was - and jail was more a certainty.
OK - maybe - but they'd be safer in jail, I respond. This brought howls of protest.
What about the abuse? asked one.
What do you mean? I asked. What kind of abuse are you talking about, that you don't think happens every day in the programs?
Sexual! gets slammed at me, again, with some force.
You don't think that the kids are sexually assaulted in the programs? I asked. Your sadly most mistaken.
Who tells you this? they ask - the girls?!
Well yes - the kids do - who else. . .
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, they respond, And you Believe them?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
(sick sinking feeling)
Yes I said, I do believe them. And I have to say, I hate to think you wouldn't. I hate to think, should your daughter muster up the courage to tell you she was a victim of sexual assault or harassment, that you would laugh in her face and send her back to her abuser.
The call was ended rather abruptly at that point. I did believe them, that they had an appointment to keep, but I was frustrated that the conversation ended there. I did offer to send them web links to further information but they declined the offer.
Now - the thing is - no clear thinking right minded person would respond the way those two women did. They were parroting the program crap and pabulum, like all good program parents do. They can't help it. They have been conditioned to trust the program; and ignore their own common sense. They are conditioned to value their relationship with the program more than that of their child. This is why they will insist the program is a great success, even when their kid comes out far worse than when they went in.
No rational, free thinking adult, would spend tens of thousands of dollars to educate and rehab their sons and daughters, and call it a success when they come out and shoot themselves through the head - or end up living in a card board box - drinking and drugging and screwing everything in sight. This requires a well indoctrinated program parent. And they ALL insist the program was a success in the face of such dire situations. These two ladies were no exception.
I got the same ole parroting of the program spiel: The program gave them the tools - its up to them to use their tools. Its not the programs failure if they won't use the tools they were provided. What a crock of shit. No rational person can think this way.
And in a related but reveres situation: No clear headed. rational adult would call their son or daughter a looser who must be shunned; because they refused to "graduate" the program; in spite of the fact the son or daughter is living a very successful life by every possible measure! Yet, otherwise intelligent program parents, manage this mindless idiocy with little effort.
As I have tried to point out before: the parents are often also victims of this evil cult. Far less sympathetic victims - but victims none the less. Of course the program moms would be horrified to be called victims - b/c there is no such thing as a victim. Thinking like a victims is a weak minded response to having chosen to be robbed or raped or beat or sad or lonely or poor. . .
Another way the program keeps them (grads and parents) in line. They can't complain about being victimized, because they have been conditioned to hate and fear the "victim mind set".
The brainwashing is the key. If we could get the masses educated with regard to what mind control is - how and why it works - we could stop all these programs dead cold.
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Too bad society as a whole encourages this shit... the whole deferment to an authority or institution mentality that EVERYONE has in abundance.
People can't change a god damned light bulb in their car or change their oil.... and are told to 'consult an expert' in doing basically everything except boiling water, and I'm fairly soon THAT Will require certification to avoid being scalded!
Child care with 'expert consultation' is a natural extension of the whole "Unless I have a degree in it I can't do a god damned thing" mentality EVERYONE has, and it has at least a grain of truth to it. There are actual problems that can be resolved with the help of an expert such as learning disabilities, ACTUAL developmental delays, physical therapy, and therapy for past trauma, but that can often be twisted and used as a case in point when someone makes up a problem your child has and says they need expert help with it and for that matter to be kept in an institution because they are not 'safe' otherwise.
The lies start with the edcon and continue through the industry. All the edcon is doing is seeing a good scam for what it is and aping the same crap that makes people spend $8 a pop to have a damned light bulb put in or $20 to have someone change your oil and lie to you about what kind they really put in :roll:
Why WOULDN'T the service industry try to fuck with your kids? They've got your car, your computer, your house, your finances, your child's ACTUAL problems... why not make some up?
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Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:42 pm Post subject:
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Well, on these point made above, we simply disagree. I feel what Trud and Butcher Said was offensive - never mind the extreme off color nature of their tag. I'm sure it was intended to offended me and give you the giggles. It worked.
Its not that I don't understand how you folks view the situation, but I feel I have a more well rounded view (I actually know the man) and so see things differently.
To answer your question Ginger, No- he does not loose control when a kid cusses or farts. Nate enjoyed his company and often had a blast on the trips they took. Knowing my son, I am sure he occasionally cursed and farted, among other things. Craig is actually very understanding and patient with the kids. Often less so with the parents. He has got a gift for working with drug addled kids. They seem to be able to relate to him and open up to him in a way that is remarkable. Nate and the boys who were in ALA with him seem to look upon Craig as a good and trusted confidant and friend. They don't always take his advice; frequently not; but I think they are well aware its good advice and that he has their best interest at heart.
So - that's my take on the subject of Craig. I've often before explained what I know and think about ALA. I have nothing to add and realize you guys disagree.
Buzzkill, in your post above, you seem to support Craig Rogers and Abundant Life Academy where you placed your son in his second program. Is this still your position today? Do you still feel that Craig Rogers was "a good and trusted confidant and friend" to your son and the other students? Do you still feel that Craig had "their best interest at heart?" Or, was this the type of "parental brainwashing" that you are speaking of?
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More than being strong willed.. the kid has to know what to do in the first place. All of this speculation is pointless without the information getting into the hands of those who may end up as captives.
Definitely agreed. A countrywide high-school education course would be ideal. "What to do if your parents send you to a cult."
I'm kinda half-joking and half-serious about it. The joking part comes from thinking that something like that could ever happen, the serious part thinking that it would be nice if it could.
The ideal, of course, being that these places didn't exist in the first place.
Another way the program keeps them (grads and parents) in line. They can't complain about being victimized, because they have been conditioned to hate and fear the "victim mind set".
****shivers**** oooohh... kay.... never made that connection before. :o yeeek! fuckin' a.
And to the anon above... I assume you are simply here for baiting purposes, since any literate moron with eyesight can see that that post is from 2005.
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You wanna talk about ALA? OK - Well, Yes, it was awhile back now. No - that was not any kind of parental brainwashing. How could it have been? There was simply no opportunity for such a thing to occur.
Honestly, If you would educate yourself with regard to what brainwashing is, you wouldn't be asking. There was nothing about our ALA experience that even comes close to brain washing. There was nothing coercive or secretive or exploitive about it.
Not to be an apologist for ALA - but to this day, I've yet to hear that my son was in any way treated badly while there. I think I would have, had such been the case. I have proven my willingness to listen and believe what he has to say. I think he would tell me. If he were miss treated - or if he reported any kid being miss-treated - I assure you I would be just as angry about it, as I have been about other situations. Probably more so.
I have no serious complaints.
If I did, surely I have proven my willingness to say so.
That having been said - I am really not interested in being the ALA spokesperson on Fornits. I have no idea what it is like today, and don't want to speculate.
Coincidentally - Nate just popped in. He left with my copy of Cults in Our Midst. He thinks his girl friend will like it. I told him to be sure to read the chapter about cults in the work place. Its about LGAT - brainwashing large groups of people in a series of daily seminars.
Sound familiar? One of the Program traits totally lacking at ALA. But, should he read the book, and decide ALA was also an abusive, brainwashing cult, I'll let you know.
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It almost as if the two program parents believe in the benefits and philosophy their children's programs as strongly as buzzkill believes in ALA. Why label these two parents as "brainwashed?"
It almost sounds as if the other two parents may have had their children in a WWASP program so, they MUST be "brainwashed!"
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By no means is refusal an easy route as the guest so aptly pointed out in his/her post. It far more effective than one might think it is. To suceed at it though you have to be willing to go the distance.
*They will use peer pressure.
*The will threaten you with consquences.
*They will use your parents against you.
*They will threaten you with a harsher programme.
This is just the beginning of the list. However, what most people forget is that the power of refusal works the best against not the staff, but the parents. Imagine the phone calls they are getting whilst you are parked on your butt somewhere ignoring everyone around you. The first few weeks of the programme are the ones where your parents are the weakest.
Exploit it to the fullest and set yourself free.
I like the idea, but I don't think any kid, no matter how firm their resolve, would have made it through a CEDU-style rap (which is the template for quite a few facilities) and remain silent, especially once they are onto your "game" and realize that you are playing the silent treatment. That kid would be dust in days. i'm not saying it's not doable, I'm saying that I think it would require a discipline not found in your usual teenager. Fuck, you'd have to have at least some experience or belief in zen meditation.
Then, of course, because you aren't speaking up, they'll put you on some form of isolated physical labor. All day... every day... rain, snow, ice, heat... until you "get it" Maybe they will isolate you from the student body. You can't talk to any friends you may have made there. The pressure in raps/groups reaches boiling points to get you to talk. You are put on some sort of restriction where you can't leave your area, or smile, or hug, or sing. They take away your cigarettes, they put you in a jumpsuit while you work, or just keep you in a dog cage, (for the WWASPies who got the worst of the gulag treatment, IMO.)
The parents will be getting calls like "We had to put him on a work detail so he could learn a little bit more about himself..." or "He's very angry right now, but making great strides in therapy."
So... which is going to run out first? A teenager's resolve to remain uncomfortable, isolated and suffering (which, as a resister, is infinitely worse than a follower)? or... the mounds of bullshit a program will tell the parents about their child's progress (or lack thereof) to placate them and make them think they sent their kid to the right place?
Who is going to give out first?
Tick tock, Clarice, can you keep that lamb from screaming?
I carved on my arm and got on a restriction *AS* my parents were coming up to visit me. The staff headed them off in Sandpoint and told them flat out that they couldn't see me because I had gotten into trouble. What did my parents do? Those stupid fuckers actually turned around and went back home. I bet the staff even told them that I had carved on myself too. Wouldn't that make you concerned enough to come see your child? To the point where you would say "I don't care what you are telling me, I am seeing my kid right now." But no, they bought the line that it was in my best interest, and turned around, after traveling from completely the other side of the country and said "Welp, that was disappointing." And don't get me wrong, they *were* sad that they couldn't see me, but they were also *stupid*! It never occurred to them that they could simply call bullshit on advice which was being given to them by a facility that they were pumping thousands of dollars into every month.
In short... don't underestimate a troubled parent's stubbornness... or ignorance. It can outlast a teenager's any day, especially if there is money involved. Because of course, high price *must* equal high quality. If I'm paying this much, they must know better than I.
The way I see it, there are two choices.
1. Try to tough it out any way you know how until you "graduate" or your parents come to their senses and pull you.
2. Get the fuck out of there and hide out in a group home until you are 18.
I agree with this. But what program allows cigarettes, that is hard to imagine?
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I agree with this. But what program allows cigarettes, that is hard to imagine?
Well, that example was from a program during the mid 80s.
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I think in the case of Buzzkill and her boy Nate it is a case of going from worst to not so bad. Anything after a wwasp programme has been claimed to be not so bad. Took quite sometime for people to recognize that not so bad still isn't at all acceptable.
Ask Sue Scheff about that sort of thing.. she panders the very same line and apparently has made some decent money off of it.
Is Buzzkill brainwashed? Well I'm hardly an expert on it and it seems to me she is saying it how she perceived it. I still question the clarity of her perception after having a son in a wwasp programme though.
Brainwashed... probably not...
Questionable in her objectivity regarding ALA and Craig Rogers?
More than likely.
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I agree with this. But what program allows cigarettes, that is hard to imagine?
Well, that example was from a program during the mid 80s.
Although programs are mostly intended for teens, there are some that take young adults over 18. There is at least one I can think of that allows smoking, but only for those over 18 -- basically because that's the law.
Not that being able to smoke cigs is any consolation if you're stuck in a program...
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It almost as if the two program parents believe in the benefits and philosophy their children's programs as strongly as buzzkill believes in ALA. Why label these two parents as "brainwashed?"
It almost sounds as if the other two parents may have had their children in a WWASP program so, they MUST be "brainwashed!"
Let me try and explain the difference. The moms (and programparents in general) are incapable of critical thinking as regards "the program". They trust the program absolutely. They scoff at the suggestion any harm could be done or that the Program is in any way at fault for the trauma their children have endured.
They will abandon their children to the street with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a few dollars - not even enough to live a single day well fed and sheltered - because the Program tells them to.
They will shun and berate a child who is living responsibly, working hard and continuing their education - b/c the program tells them to.
They all use a great deal of "loaded language" to reinforce their devotion to the programs teachings; and to dismiss as unenlightened and irrelevant all critics. Read Cults in Our Midst for an understanding of Loaded Language. (and LGAT)
They have a mindless devotion to the program - insisting it is wonderful and helped them - when in fact they have severed relationships that had been important to them prior to the program b/c the program told them to.
They do all this, b/c they have attended a series of LGAT seminars. The program used this very effective form of Coercive Persuasion (brain-washing) to weaken their sense of self and remold them into faithful and mindlessly trusting program devotees. They use a well understood recipe of sleep depravation; social stress; peer pressure; hyper breathing exercises and so on, and to effectively cause people to question and then abandon life long held values and ideas, and supplant them with those that will benefit the program. It works. It will continue to work, as long as the conditioning is reinforced with constant contact with the group. Thus you have the parent "support" groups and the BBS and the encouragement to remain active win the seminars long after the teen is out of the program.
And - all of this is a big secrete. No one knows going in what will happen. No one is informed ahead of time what it is all about. And - the program itself is not what the parents are told up front. If they were told up front they would be horrified. However - after attendance in the seminars, and the reinforcement of so many other parents, they will accept almost anything the program suggest is acceptable.
Now, ALA had no parent support groups. There were no seminars. There was no effort to change the values or beliefs of the parents or students. We all went into it with similar beliefs. There were no secretes. I assure you - plenty of parents had a powerful tendency to complain, and had a most telling lack of trust. There was no attempt to instill blind trust or devotion to ALA or Craig. I had no problem telling Craig I disagreed with him on the occasions that I did. I had no problem thinking for myself about matters we were at odds on. I have no reason to think any of the parents - or the boys - ever did.
Things were so different there, there is really no comparison. One young man was allowed to keep the family pets with him (and no one tossed them over a cliff either) The boys had jobs in town and attended the movies and local sporting events. They had open access to the phones and called home when they wanted. They had access to the internet and email. I often got email from my son with a link to some gadget on Ebay he wanted. It was a totally different sort of situation.
No - it wasn't perfect. No - Craig isn't the Messiah. He is a man who makes mistakes and sometimes big ones ( like all men and women do) but I never saw any thing in his nature that would cause me concern for the kids. As far as I know my son never did. I think I would have heard, if he had.
If I were to hear that he, or any kid, had been hog tied; or beat up; or gang raped; or humiliated; or shunned; or forced to march in the Utah heat in winter clothes, with a 50 sand bag around his neck. . . I would be angry beyond words. You would all know all about my furry if such were the case.
I would not be insisting he'd be fine if he would just "work his program". That's the difference. It is a Huge difference.
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Was the reason for placement in ALA to try and undo any damage that might have occured at Tranquility Bay? What was the point of the second placement if the first one went so horribly bad? Did all parents attend the seminars? How long does it take a parent to become brainwashed, are they brainwashed before sending their child away? How long before the first seminar?
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If your really interested in how its done, read Cults in Our Midst. Mean while, google LifeSpring + LGAT + cult.
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Let me try and explain the difference. The moms (and programparents in general) are incapable of critical thinking as regards "the program". They trust the program absolutely. They scoff at the suggestion any harm could be done or that the Program is in any way at fault for the trauma their children have endured.
They will abandon their children to the street with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a few dollars - not even enough to live a single day well fed and sheltered - because the Program tells them to.
They will shun and berate a child who is living responsibly, working hard and continuing their education - b/c the program tells them to.
They all use a great deal of "loaded language" to reinforce their devotion to the programs teachings; and to dismiss as unenlightened and irrelevant all critics. Read Cults in Our Midst for an understanding of Loaded Language. (and LGAT)
They have a mindless devotion to the program - insisting it is wonderful and helped them - when in fact they have severed relationships that had been important to them prior to the program b/c the program told them to
You are describing events that take place at the end or after a program placement. What about all the poor choices WWASPS program parents make before ever setting foot in a seminar? Those seem to be conveniently absent from this description.
Did you use an escort to send your son to Tranquility Bay? Did you lie to him in order to get him to go? I think that says a lot more about parents values and intentions than any of this after-the-fact revisionism.
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If your really interested in how its done, read Cults in Our Midst. Mean while, google LifeSpring + LGAT + cult.
I don't need to read a book about something I've seen with my own eyes. You skipped over my questions but that's okay because I know some of the answers myself but I thought you'd like to chime in. I will put it in language you understand.
//////Was the reason for placement in ALA to try and undo any damage that might have occured at Tranquility Bay? ///////
?????????? Why not just bring him home?
//////What was the point of the second placement if the first one went so horribly bad? //////////
???????? Why not just bring him home?
///////Did all parents attend the seminars? ///////
I know the answer to this is no. So what is these parent's excuse? Are you better than them since you claim you were brainwashed, or were you ever brainwashed? Was your kid just caught up in the interim period while his parent was awaiting brainwashing? I don't understand. How long was your child at tranquility bay exactly? How many seminars did you go to? Do you consider yourself to be brainwashed by WWASPS at some point in your life?
///////How long does it take a parent to become brainwashed, are they brainwashed before sending their child away? ///////
I am skeptical of the idea that one weekend every two months is enough to turn a caring parent into an abusive one. I think the abusive parent was always there, and this just allows them to embrace a part of themselves previously hidden. Your lack of ability to explain this only hardens my belief of this.
//////How long before the first seminar?////////
It can be as long as two months or even longer sometimes. That's a lot of letters from the child stating abuse claims, and that they don't belong there and describing the place in detail.
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If your really interested in how its done, read Cults in Our Midst. Mean while, google LifeSpring + LGAT + cult.
I don't need to read a book about something I've seen with my own eyes. You skipped over my questions but that's okay because I know some of the answers myself
I thought that might be the case
//////Was the reason for placement in ALA to try and undo any damage that might have occured at Tranquility Bay? ///////
?????????? Why not just bring him home?
I had my reasons.
/////What was the point of the second placement if the first one went so horribly bad? //////////
I didn't know it was so horribly bad at that point. I knew I didn't like what I was hearing and that I felt something was strange about it all; but I had no idea at that point what the truth was.
///////Did all parents attend the seminars? ///////
If they don't pull the kid first. And some pull their kid ASAP after the first seminar. But in most cases the seminars do the job they are designed to do and produce reinforcements for the faithful legions.
I know the answer to this is no.
Well not by much.
So what is these parent's excuse?
Any number of things.
Are you better than them since you claim you were brainwashed, or were you ever brainwashed?
It is an insidious process that begins with the first phone call. Before then, really, b/c the stress that has been building up as a consequence of so much family drama makes anyone a prime candidate for exploitive persuasion.
Your anxious and exhausted and looking for help and answers. When you get this helpful, well trained sales person on the phone telling you they have the answers - you want so much to believe it. This is all they need to begin the process.
Was your kid just caught up in the interim period while his parent was awaiting brainwashing?
I suppose thats one way to put it.
I don't understand. How long was your child at tranquility bay exactly?
Not at all. But we were involved with the program for about 4 months. A little less.
How many seminars did you go to?
None. I had some fore-knowledge as to what LGAT was; so that when I got the rules and considered the strange "sameness" of the seminars junkies, I realized what was going on. That's when I pulled my son.
Do you consider yourself to be brainwashed
I am aware, looking back, how influenced I was by the program's manipulation of my hopes and fears. I had been much influenced by the deadorinjail certainty of pulling a kid. I was afraid. It took all I could muster to do what seemed "right" even tho so much of my mind was struggling with great doubts.
///////How long does it take a parent to become brainwashed, are they brainwashed before sending their child away? ///////
I do believe the process begin very early on. Partly b/c as I mentioned - so many of the parents who call such a program are already very emotionally wrung out. Honestly, you can have no idea how horrible it is until your in those shoes. You can't sleep; when you do you have these stressed out nightmares; you sit and cry for days and weeks at a time maybe. The stress is crushing. And as I have pointed out before - stress makes people stupid. You can forfeit common sense, largely b/c your brain just isn't working very well at that point.
I am skeptical of the idea that one weekend every two months is enough to turn a caring parent into an abusive one.
Its not just a week end away. It is a well organized event, designed to use basic human psychology against the group, to breakdown them down and then rebuild to unquestioningly trust the program. They will often eventually come to identify very strongly with the program, to the point the program is a big part of who they are. They can feel attacked and personally threatened by any negative comment about "the program" - just like any other cult member. It works exactly the same way.
I think the abusive parent was always there, and this just allows them to embrace a part of themselves previously hidden. Your lack of ability to explain this only hardens my belief of this.
Well I am not saying your wrong. I actually tend to agree that all persons have great potential for selfishness and spite and any number of other unpleasant and destructive traits. That having been said, I do believe the "training" that take place in LGAT makes persons who have been decent enough folks, into boorish, selfish ass holes, who think they are "truthful" and "joyful".
/////How long before the first seminar?////////
It can be as long as two months or even longer sometimes.
Sure, it varies. I'd guess anywhere from a week, to 8 weeks or so - on average.
That's a lot of letters from the child stating abuse claims, and that they don't belong there and describing the place in detail.
Not as much as you'd think. A handful of letters at most. All censored. And remember, they begin the process of conditioning the parents from the first phone call - when they tell them to not worry when they get upsetting letters. The kids often write horrible things in an attempt to manipulate the parents so they can come home. All this must be ignored. This message is hammered on over and over and over. This is why the parents Laugh like hyenas at the idea anyone would believe the kids who report sexual assault.
Actually, this is one of the things that worried me all along. If the parents won't believe the kids - then who could they turn to in the case of real abuse? The answer? No one. That's part of the evil genius of the system.
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we were involved with the program for about 4 months. A little less.
How many seminars did you go to?
None. I had some fore-knowledge as to what LGAT was; so that when I got the rules and considered the strange "sameness" of the seminars junkies, I realized what was going on. That's when I pulled my son.
/////How long before the first seminar?////////
It can be as long as two months or even longer sometimes.
Sure, it varies. I'd guess anywhere from a week, to 8 weeks or so - on average.
This is what I don't understand, the timeline of brainwashing. You said you didn't attend the seminar, only after you got the rules you decided to pull your kid. Shouldn't that have been a week to eight weeks then? Why did it take four months?
These questions were overlooked I think:
Did you use an escort to send your son to Tranquility Bay? Did you lie to him in order to get him to go?
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You are describing events that take place at the end or after a program placement.
The significance of this is that in the beginning, most of them would never dream of treating their child in such a cold hearted and callous manner. That is a direct result of the Programming.
What about all the poor choices WWASPS program parents make before ever setting foot in a seminar? Those seem to be conveniently absent from this description.
People make mistakes and do dumb things. Sometimes they are selfish and hateful, even when they are usually kind and generous.
But as I explained above - the stress of worrying about a child who is spinning out of control is horrible, and it no doubt causes many poor choices to be made.
Did you use an escort to send your son to Tranquility Bay? Did you lie to him in order to get him to go?
Why do you think we were involved with Tranquility bay?
But no, I didn't lie to my son; although I know this is extremely common. I told him exactly what we were going to do if he kept pushing. He did and we did.
I think that says a lot more about parents values and intentions than any of this after-the-fact revisionism.
Well sure - I understand, I think, why you feel that way. But you are maybe a bit to quick to damn the parents with out considering the role the teens themselves play in all this.
I really do understand the anger and hostility toward the parents. I have had the experience of hearing a whole room full of people gasp in horror after explaining I am one of the parents. But its not as if the teens are blameless innocence.
Personally, I think the blame for the horror of the realities of syanon based "therapy" falls directly at the feet of those who own and operate these facilities; as well as the supporting cast of characters - the crooked ed cons. The escort services. Even the finance companies. They are exploiting hurting families to enrich themselves, with no regaud for the lifelong damage being done to persons and relationships. Its truly evil in my opinion.
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The significance of this is that in the beginning, most of them would never dream of treating their child in such a cold hearted and callous manner. That is a direct result of the Programming.
What about programs like Benchmark that also gives kids exit plans, are those parents brainwashed as well? What about all the other abusive programs, the majority that exist? They have everything WWASPS has , and in many cases, more. Do all these parents brainwash themselves independently? Or is a few telephone calls enough to completely change one's world view and value system and how they treat their offspring?
Why do you think we were involved with Tranquility bay?
But no, I didn't lie to my son; although I know this is extremely common. I told him exactly what we were going to do if he kept pushing. He did and we did.
So you threatened your kid with a program before you sent him away?
How long exactly did you know about the program you sent him to since you knew "exactly what we were going to do"? That suggests you had time to plan.
Do you think it's okay for parents to tell their kids if they don't do what they say they will send them to abusive programs via escort?
If I tell my spouse I won't hit her as long as she looks pretty and doesn't make me mad, does that make it okay?
I
Well sure - I understand, I think, why you feel that way. But you are maybe a bit to quick to damn the parents with out considering the role the teens themselves play in all this.
What role did your son have, did he review the various WWASP facilities with you and help choose one? Did he help pick the escort?
If your kid was having problems, there are a myriad of better choices you could make. it's not your kid's fault that their parent sought to have them imprisoned in an abusive facility. That one lays solely with you, the parent.
During the youth seminars, they spend the entire time trying to convince the kid that it's their fault they ended up in a program. They force the children to blame themselves fully, even if they are just a victim of sexual abuse or something. That is a perverse thing to do to youth, and your statement does the same thing. You actually believe that kids bring this treatment onto themselves. That if the had just been good kids parents wouldn't need to seek out places like this and they wouldn't be abused. I know. I've heard it all before and it's disgusting to suggest this because it couldn't be further from the truth.
I really do understand the anger and hostility toward the parents. I have had the experience of hearing a whole room full of people gasp in horror after explaining I am one of the parents. But its not as if the teens are blameless innocence.
Actually, most of the kids in WWASPS programs are blamelessly innocent. Their only crime was being molested by an uncle and telling someone, having divorced parents who want to dump them so they can start new families, or the actual few that engaged in typical teenager hooliganism and having reactionary parents. The truth is most of the teens in these places are innocent , unlucky enough to have parents who think it's a good idea to send them away to be changed. Not everyone searches for a place that offers to change their child in significant ways.
Personally, I think the blame for the horror of the realities of syanon based "therapy" falls directly at the feet of those who own and operate these facilities; as well as the supporting cast of characters - the crooked ed cons. The escort services. Even the finance companies. They are exploiting hurting families to enrich themselves, with no regaud for the lifelong damage being done to persons and relationships. Its truly evil in my opinion.
Do all these companies brainwash parents? These services are utilized by parents in the very beginning of placement, before any program or kidnap company has time to brainwash a parent. What accounts for this?
At what point were you brainwashed?
- You threaten your kid with program placement in exact detail
- You carry out your threat and have your kid kidnapped and sent to facility
- You wait four months before going to your first seminar
- Your familiarity with LGAT causes you to get cold feet and you pull your kid
- You place your kid in another program that uses similar methods
If you were familiar with LGAT technique before going to a seminar, then why didn't you recognize the program was abusive earlier?
If you threatened your child with your "exact" plan of action, didn't you have time to plan his placement?
Why did it take four months to go to your first seminar?
The significance of this is that in the beginning, most of them would never dream of treating their child in such a cold hearted and callous manner. That is a direct result of the Programming.
This quote right cuts to the heart of the matter. Don't you realize the most cold hearted and callous act that takes place is the very first one?
You were never programmed when you employed the services and companies you blame.
You chose a cold hearted and callous program before you even knew there were seminars.
You sought out WWASPS , threatened your son with it, and carried out that threat.
Even TheWho had more sense than to send his child to WWASPS and then blame them for it.
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Hi again. Its a bit to late and I'm a bit to tired for a detailed response. I did want to point out one thing tho. The parents are lied to. They do not send their teens into these hellish situations with any idea of the realities. Its true that today there is plenty of information available, if a parent looks for it. But this was not always the case. And even now, a parent has to have some idea that there are horrible facilities to even be suspicious of the spiel they get from the sales persons. These programs sell the parents what ever it is they are looking for: an advanced and progressive school; a compassionate successful drug rehab; an effective special education program; a "challenging" out door experience; a vacation from the family drama - What ever it is, they sell it to you, and your glad to buy it, b./c you feel you have to do something - and your glad you've found something that even might be helpful, when you have no idea of the kind of harm that can be done.
I can't explain Benchmark or many of the others. It seems to me from what I hear about the similar parental response, that they are at least powerfully influenced by the facility staff (who they think are the "experts') and the other parents who are constantly re-enforcing the idea that they are doing the right thing. This seems to have been the case with Straight and the many related spin offs.
I believe some programs bring this is much greater effect with the use of the seminars and support groups and forums and so on; but the general effect seems attainable by any program large enough to group the parents and get them re-enforcing the conditioning with each other. I mean, this is how cult growth works. These Syanon based programs are all very cult like - just like the "treatment" cult they all sprang from.
I have to say, I am always a little uncomfortable "debating" a ex-program student in a way that seems to be an attempt to justify the betrayal and abandonment they have experienced. That is not my goal here. However, If I could help you understand why *I* think the parents are brainwashed; and if that might help you see that this is possibly the case - maybe you would feel somewhat less betrayed - and that would be a good thing. But I am not in any way trying to invalidate what you experienced and how you feel about it.
You asked earlier if I thought I was somehow "better than". . .
No - not at all. I do think I am lucky. Lucky to have had some prior education with regard to how cults operate, and specifically what LGAT is, and how it works. I suppose this is why I feel so strongly that getting the public widely educated along these lines, will help a lot in this fight to stop the abuse.
Oh, BTW - please read again who I blame. You'll not find the kids mentioned. I feel the teens are often responsible for the problems that result in parents looking for answers outside the home - and I know the parents are responsible for not doing the kind of research we here have all grown so accustomed to doing - but I blame the perpetrators of the abuse, for the abuse.
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You know what, Buzzkill? Watching you dance around this guy is disturbing and slightly Who-like. I wanted to take your side, I really did, but in the end I seriously hope your kid snaps one day and rips your motherfucking throat out.
(http://http://uziga.sakura.ne.jp/cgi/palletbbs/imgdir/7.jpg)
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Hi again. Its a bit to late and I'm a bit to tired for a detailed response. I did want to point out one thing tho. The parents are lied to. They do not send their teens into these hellish situations with any idea of the realities. Its true that today there is plenty of information available, if a parent looks for it. But this was not always the case. And even now, a parent has to have some idea that there are horrible facilities to even be suspicious of the spiel they get from the sales persons. These programs sell the parents what ever it is they are looking for: an advanced and progressive school; a compassionate successful drug rehab; an effective special education program; a "challenging" out door experience; a vacation from the family drama - What ever it is, they sell it to you, and your glad to buy it, b./c you feel you have to do something - and your glad you've found something that even might be helpful, when you have no idea of the kind of harm that can be done.
I can't explain Benchmark or many of the others. It seems to me from what I hear about the similar parental response, that they are at least powerfully influenced by the facility staff (who they think are the "experts') and the other parents who are constantly re-enforcing the idea that they are doing the right thing. This seems to have been the case with Straight and the many related spin offs.
I believe some programs bring this is much greater effect with the use of the seminars and support groups and forums and so on; but the general effect seems attainable by any program large enough to group the parents and get them re-enforcing the conditioning with each other. I mean, this is how cult growth works. These Syanon based programs are all very cult like - just like the "treatment" cult they all sprang from.
I have to say, I am always a little uncomfortable "debating" a ex-program student in a way that seems to be an attempt to justify the betrayal and abandonment they have experienced. That is not my goal here. However, If I could help you understand why *I* think the parents are brainwashed; and if that might help you see that this is possibly the case - maybe you would feel somewhat less betrayed - and that would be a good thing. But I am not in any way trying to invalidate what you experienced and how you feel about it.
You asked earlier if I thought I was somehow "better than". . .
No - not at all. I do think I am lucky. Lucky to have had some prior education with regard to how cults operate, and specifically what LGAT is, and how it works. I suppose this is why I feel so strongly that getting the public widely educated along these lines, will help a lot in this fight to stop the abuse.
Oh, BTW - please read again who I blame. You'll not find the kids mentioned. I feel the teens are often responsible for the problems that result in parents looking for answers outside the home - and I know the parents are responsible for not doing the kind of research we here have all grown so accustomed to doing - but I blame the perpetrators of the abuse, for the abuse.
To the above Guest poster: (not Buzz) that was fucked up. Buzz is telling the truth about what a parent goes through... It's similar to what went on with my parents: they were conned.
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As much as I dislike the chain of events as Buzzkill describes them as they do involve the unwilling detaining of a youth I do recognize that this didn't happen just yesterday.
Had it happened yesterday a greater claim could be made for saying that buzzkill did in fact participate in the abuse of her son not once, but twice. However, these events happened quite sometime ago. It needs to be acknowledged that Buzzkill operated in an environment where information about programmes was readily unavailable.
A simple keyword search on google wouldn't have turned up a great deal of useful information. Operating in this vacuum of information Buzzkill could only sort of fumble her way through the situation under her own guidance.
I think it is pretty remarkable that she managed to eventually come to the conclusions that she did and withdrew her son from ALA as well. In the end that is all that really counts.
Care without consent doesn't deserve a microspeck of my respect, but even I came to that conclusion over time and with the right information.
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Differences between Buzzkill and The Who
Buzzkill spends considerable time and Money doing everything she can to try and keep kids out of programs. This is something to be considered because if more people acted in a practical way instead of just attacking every parent desperate or stupid enough to send their kid to this industry it would have much less power.
The Who spends considerable time hawking Aspen Education and deliberately being horrible about and to kids who have been through this hell.
Buzzkill was willing to listen to her son and has spent much time and effort reconnecting with him. She respects his privacy by not giving every gory detail on a widely read forum.
The who tells us all about his kid's alleged crimes and misdemeanors. Tell it fuckin all brother!
In spite of some funny religious ideas, Buzzkill has repeatedly said that while ALA was apparently not abusive to her son she would not recommend it or any program because she does not know what it is now like. She is not often the one to bring up ALA because she is not trying to sell it. he has also stated on numerous occasions that because her son says the experience was positive does not mean that she would recommend any program. There is a difference between refusing to lie when asked a direct question and hawking a program. Having said that I pity the kid who ends up there but who does not believe in hardcore Ned Flanders Christianity! her son was lucky to share her wacky religious ideas.
The Who constantly talks of both of the shit pits he sent his daughter to as if they are a panacea. He continually invalidates the views of program kids with made up stats and other nonsense without being asked. He is a prick
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Now tell me the difference between Buzzkill and Sue Scheff or Isabelle Zehnder.
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even I came to that conclusion over time and with the right information.
The information was right in front both of your faces.
You both failed the kids involved by making bad decisions.
What information is needed to tell you that kidnapping your child and threatening them is wrong?
What information is needed to tell you the facility you work for is abusive? Either it is or it isn't.
At this point, both of you are making excuses.
I just want to know one thing. If your child died in a program, would you make these same excuses for the killer or those who paid the killer? Just wondering.
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Ok Buzzkill does not recommend programs of any kind. Not even ALA in spite of her own views. She stated that she was not their mouthpiece but answered the question with the truth as she saw it. She then was continually asked questions about it which she answered.
Sue Scheff refers to any random program
Buzzkill genuinely does what she can to tell parents of the dangers of programs. She has done many practical things to keep kids out of programs. This moves far beyond WWASP
Sue Scheff recommends dangerous programs
Buzzkill has never sued those who disagree with her or who are rude to her
Sue Scheff sues everyone
Buzzkill spends money trying to keep kids out of programs
Sue Scheff makes money sending kids to programs
Buzzkill answers any questions as honestly as she feels she can even when it results in obscenities thrown her way
Sue Scheff tells out and out lies and has never allowed anyone to question her ethics
Buzzkill has crazy religious ideas but at least practices them by generally turning the other cheek and attempting to do some good in the world. She puts her money where her mouth is and gives anybody a fair chance.
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You forgot
I wish BuzzKill was my mommy
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BuzzKill threatened her son with kidnapping and abusive program.
BuzzKill carried out threat and left son in abusive program for four months.
BuzzKill finally finds the time to go to a seminar, and her current cult beliefs do not allow her to accept another cult belief. Shaking her worldview to the core, she becomes uncomfortable with the other parents around her and pulls her son.
BuzzKill, knowing her son was coming from a cult and abusive program, sends her son to another program.
BuzzKill sees nothing wrong with using knowledge of abusive programs to scare children today(said this several times).
BuzzKill sees nothing wrong with "lighter" programs like ALA.
BuzzKill is anti-WWASPS but not anti-program.
BuzzKill uses rhetoric like Sue Scheff to convince anti-program people she agrees with them by ommitting details from story or being vague.
BuzzKill thinks teens bring abusive programs upon themselves.
BuzzKill thinks it's okay to enter into an agreement to abuse your child, as long as the child agrees , it's okay.
BuzzKill blames brainwashing for WWASPS even though she never was brainwashed.
BuzzKill blames escort companies even though she called them first.
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BuzzKill threatened her son with kidnapping and abusive program.
BuzzKill carried out threat and left son in abusive program for four months.
BuzzKill finally finds the time to go to a seminar, and her current cult beliefs do not allow her to accept another cult belief. Shaking her worldview to the core, she becomes uncomfortable with the other parents around her and pulls her son.
BuzzKill, knowing her son was coming from a cult and abusive program, sends her son to another program.
BuzzKill sees nothing wrong with using knowledge of abusive programs to scare children today(said this several times).
BuzzKill sees nothing wrong with "lighter" programs like ALA.
BuzzKill is anti-WWASPS but not anti-program.
BuzzKill uses rhetoric like Sue Scheff to convince anti-program people she agrees with them by ommitting details from story or being vague.
BuzzKill thinks teens bring abusive programs upon themselves.
BuzzKill thinks it's okay to enter into an agreement to abuse your child, as long as the child agrees , it's okay.
BuzzKill blames brainwashing for WWASPS even though she never was brainwashed.
BuzzKill blames escort companies even though she called them first.
Buzzkill seems level headed, not extreme on either side.
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Buzzkill didn't remove her son from ALA. Buzzkill's son went to work at ALA after he finished his enrollment at ALA, right?
Is all the complaining about parental brainwashing by WWASP to bolster to current claims in the Turley lawsuit?
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My primary focus, when discussing how and why the programs are able to keep doing what they do, and growing in numbers, despite all the negative press, is the brain washing cultic aspects of the programs (all of the Syanon based programs - now that I know about the history) This is nothing new fro me. This has always been my major point. It has nothing do with any legal action. Its my opinion on how and why the programs grow, despite their extremely dismal effects on the families. I have always felt this needed explaining.
My son was a student at ALA and did spend a summer helping out in the Mexican home. He had a good time while there. I do think it was a positive thing for him, despite the abundence of pot and developing a taste for fish tacos, goat meat, and extremely spicy food of all sorts. He enjoyed the relaxed culture and meeting the people. I didn't pull him from ALA b/c there was never any reason to. When he wanted to come home, he did.
My thanks to those who have gone to the trouble to defend me in this thread, despite their own feelings that I was, and perhaps am, a bit of a fool ;) Yes, I have a few things in common with Ned Flanders. I think he's a great guy BTW.
Now, I would like to respectfully request that the focus be taken off me. I'll happily refrain from further comment, if we can allow the thread to get back to effective grass roots actions.
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Buzzkill didn't remove her son from ALA. Buzzkill's son went to work at ALA after he finished his enrollment at ALA, right?
Is all the complaining about parental brainwashing by WWASP to bolster to current claims in the Turley lawsuit?
Buzz doesn't refer kids to programs. Buzz's kid didn't go through any hard times in ALA because his existing belief structure was compatible with the program. I don't think it was the right decision, and perhaps Buzz disagrees, however I don't think either of us, in the end, have a truly relevant say in the matter. What matters to me is whether the kid wanted to go. Even then, it was a long time ago, and I know Buzz, currently, is no fan of the industry.
Furthermore, I would take with a grain of salt what some people have to say about other people behind their backs, especially certain "Guest" people who don't like her, have extremely distinctive writing styles, and enjoy trying to get people in trouble by lying about them when they don't get their way. ( @you know who you are: ::fu:: Oh. And Btw.. I didn't check. I don't have to. You stick out like a malignancy)(not you, Buzz).
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Personally, I don't think the parents are "brainwashed" any more than parents who take their kids to Sunday school are brainwashed. Parents take their kids to Sunday school because they think it is the right thing to do. The Church tells them it is the right thing to do. Other Chiristians or believers tell them it is the right thing to do. Christian parents believe that if they don't take their kids to church they may never be "saved". They may die and go to hell. Are they brainwashed? There certainly is a lot of pressure put on them to conform. But are they brainwashed? No. It is a choice.
As far as the programs go, I don't think parents always know what goes on behind closed doors and therein the danger lies. However they choose to believe that placing their child int a program is the right thing to do. It is a choice they make. They choose to believe that the program is the answer to the problem.
I think brainwashing takes a lot more than just a few weekend seminars and other parents praising the programs for someone to become "brainwashed". Of course I am looking at the definition of brainwashing as in terms of forced coersion.
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i can see both sides of the brainwashing argument. it is also important to look at the wider social factors that support the industry because these do play a part.
On one hand if a kid is experiencing legal, mental health or substance abuse difficulties and there appears to be a lack of local social services or extremely heavy handed laws when it comes to petty youth crime and drug use then a program is going to be pretty tempting.
Many parents have complained of these issues and I can see how jail is a realistic fear in states with an excessive approach to youth crime or drug taking. While i recognize that Jail is ironically better than most programs I can see how the word Boarding School is going to sound better than jail to any reasonable parent.
This is why any real grass roots action needs to also look at lobbying for a far more sensible approach to young people on a local level. A shift away from ridiculous zero tolerance policy both in schools and with regard to policing is a start. Greater genuinely helpful and accesable mental health and medical services would also help in reducing the sense of desperation (false or otherwise) that parents feel. if nothing else a good non hysterical local doctor can reassure a parent who suspects their experimenting child is an addict.
Having said this, it does seems that some parents are far more willing to buy in than others. Some of the things that kids to get sent to the industry for indicate that there is either hysteria on the parents part, a step parent who wants them sent away cause they are not cute any more or a parent who expects total obedience form the kid. I can remember reading about Paul Richards in help at any cost. On one hand his parents did appear brainwashed but on the other they were pretty shitty parents to begin with. They appeared to pretty much decide that their son was an asshole at ten and spend his adolescence picking fights with him and punishing him. Programs are always going to market to such people. So the question is were they brainwashed or were they assholes who just found like minded freaks?
it also appears that the rise of the religious Right has a lot to answer for. The fact that there are programs that treat Wikka or homosexuality speaks volumes. While there will always be families that disagree on these issues, it is frightening that there is a real movement of people who promote the idea that these things are not about a difference in opinion or lifestyle but pathology. The W "with us or against us" mentality is not just about iraq.
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The word "brainwashing" gets tossed around rather glibly on these forums sometimes.
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Probably because it is so routinely used by programs. If you want to warehouse people for the lowest possible cost, brainwashing is one of the first techniques you turn to.
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Just saying.
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Influenced would be a better word to describe what happens to the parents. I think the parents can be easily influenced by those who support the programs and those who profit from the programs and they are easily influenced because they are vulnerable. In my opinion, that would be a better way to describe the parents who place their kids into these risky programs rather than calling them brainwashed.
I think once they have been influenced and supportive some parents find it hard to admit that it is not the answer and they hold on to their belief as it is a last sort of hope. If you don't have hope, what do you have? They choose to hang on to that hope.
Being brainwashed imo implies being forced or coerced into a belief and/or choice. I think it is the kids who are being brainwashed, not the parents. And I tend to think, that some parents think that is exactly what their kid needs.
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A distinction I would draw between what the parents experience and their kids would be brainwashed vs. duped or conned.
the parents do experience a watered down version of what their kid goes through, if they attend the seminars, but I have yet to see any program show a parent what happens in a rap or a full blown workshop.
Brainwashing happens when you experience the program, duped is what happens when the program launches the spin machine. Duped, manipulated, conned, and information deliberately withheld. What really happens to their child is shrouded in secrecy. I would hope that most parents would be protective enough of their children that if they really saw the kind of shit that went down and what was being done to their own kid, it would disturb them.
Now, with examples such as the Seed or Synanon, this does not apply, because the families lived there, and were just as much a part of the process as the kids. I would also argue this was the case with straight, because of host homes. But most of the facilities currently in operation deliberately make sure that the parents don't discover this stuff.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing)
In Cults in Our Midst, Singer writes about Large Group Awareness Training. Anyone who has attended a WWASPS sponsored (required) seminar will recognize everything described. They can learn why they were not allowed time to have a relaxed meal; or a good nights sleep; or to sit next to their family member. They will learn about the sly use of normal human psychology to manipulate them into agreeing with things that in real (pre seminar) life they would never have tolerated.
There is a reason why the program likes the "baking" comparisons. If you follow a recipe for a cake you will end up with a cake. If you stop half way through the process, you end up with goo.
With Brain washing, you also follow a recipe. This recipe, if seen through to the end, has a predictable result: a person who thinks they way they have been conditioned to think. It won't matter that they thought differently before. The recipe works if followed. They will come out of the process changed. And from the program's (cult's)perspective this change is all to the better. They have a bunch of well baked cakes who will trust the program with out question, and scoff at all attempts to tell them the program isn't their savior.
But as with the cake, if you stop the process half way through you end up with a kind of mental goo. The mind has been softened up and mixed up, so the old ideas can be brought into doubt an discarded, and the new ideas implanted and accepted. Then they are Baked till done with the new idea now a part of who they are. But if you stop the process half way through, you will have a mess on your hands. The new self hasn't been constructed and baked. The new ideas may have been implanted, but not yet fixed, baked in. People often fall apart (like a half baked cake) and it can take weeks and even months to begin to feel "normal" again.
It is in fact "brain washing". It produces a predictable result if the recipe is followed. It produces a compliant and irrationally devoted group of followers It also produces mental breakdowns, but they are few enough to fall easily through that acceptable window of loss. For the most part, it works well enough, long enough, to be of great benefit to the Cult / program.
The program itself meets all the required criteria to be classified as a cult. Just as did the Seed and Straight before them; and Syanon before them.
People often want to equate "brainwashing" with things like education or religion or the military. In Cults on Our Midst, Singer tackles this issue head on, and explains why these legitimate organizations are not cults, and are not brainwashing people. Its a very good book. Anyone with an interest in these programs should read it. It explains a lot that seems otherwise incomprehensible.
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Yeah i read cults in out myst. I accept that there is a case to be argued and that parents have taken what is known as that first fatal step. I can also understand that often they are sold on the phone whatever they wish to hear.
BUT it does seem that some parents are either not real bright to begin with "well my wife says my little girl is a monster so she must be right" "my parish priest seems to think my emo/goth/wicca daughter is possessed by the devil better not question god's mouthpiece" Others do seem to be searching for a punitive solution to their kid's problems. So they are sold exactly what they want. This may be because they make that first phone call angry after a difficult fight or a specific incident and buy in from the word go, or it may be that they are callous bastards. Although places like Aspen look nice the most current WWASP websites look pretty shitty. i can see how 5 yrs ago ttranquility bay looked lovely, but some of their websites now are quite open about how sparse and institutional the facilities are. So on some level the parents who are currently sending their kid to WWASP must be aware that this is not a place that is going to treat their kid fabulously
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So on some level the parents who are currently sending their kid to WWASP must be aware that this is not a place that is going to treat their kid fabulously
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Oz Girl, the website for Spring Creek Lodge -WWASP might give desperate, worried parents the impression that this facility is a "fabulous" place for their out-of-control teen.
www.springcreeklodge.com (http://www.springcreeklodge.com)
Spring Creek Lodge is advertised as a "boarding school" and the home page is filled with all the correct BUZZ WORDS for parents to hear:
SCL promises parents a "successful happy family again."
SCL promises the child will "make a complete turn-around from old behaviors into an impressive young adult."
Other Promises are made, using words like: "honesty...integrity...love of family."
The primary concern is: "Becoming a functioning family again."
Secondary concern is: "Academics"
The Seminars for Students will teach: character...responsibility...accountability..honesty..integrity...family goals.
Parentaly Participation is presented as an INTEGRAL PART in the student's success: Weekly Phone Calls - Parent Semimars - Support Groups
Although SCL is not therapeutic - a list of services is available AT AN EXTRA COST!!!!
Special Programs include: Adoption - Anger Management - Drug Dependency - Rape and Sexual Abuse.
WHAT'S NOT TO "LIKE" ABOUT SPRING CREEK LODGE?
And that's just reading the website.
Wait until some high-pressure, well-trained "CARING" sales representative starts talking to this desperate, upset parent....who may have a teen who is facing trouble with law enforcement, etc.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing
In Cults in Our Midst, Singer writes about Large Group Awareness Training. Anyone who has attended a WWASPS sponsored (required) seminar will recognize everything described. They can learn why they were not allowed time to have a relaxed meal; or a good nights sleep; or to sit next to their family member. They will learn about the sly use of normal human psychology to manipulate them into agreeing with things that in real (pre seminar) life they would never have tolerated.
There is a reason why the program likes the "baking" comparisons. If you follow a recipe for a cake you will end up with a cake. If you stop half way through the process, you end up with goo.
With Brain washing, you also follow a recipe. This recipe, if seen through to the end, has a predictable result: a person who thinks they way they have been conditioned to think. It won't matter that they thought differently before. The recipe works if followed. They will come out of the process changed. And from the program's (cult's)perspective this change is all to the better. They have a bunch of well baked cakes who will trust the program with out question, and scoff at all attempts to tell them the program isn't their savior.
But as with the cake, if you stop the process half way through you end up with a kind of mental goo. The mind has been softened up and mixed up, so the old ideas can be brought into doubt an discarded, and the new ideas implanted and accepted. Then they are Baked till done with the new idea now a part of who they are. But if you stop the process half way through, you will have a mess on your hands. The new self hasn't been constructed and baked. The new ideas may have been implanted, but not yet fixed, baked in. People often fall apart (like a half baked cake) and it can take weeks and even months to begin to feel "normal" again.
It is in fact "brain washing". It produces a predictable result if the recipe is followed. It produces a compliant and irrationally devoted group of followers It also produces mental breakdowns, but they are few enough to fall easily through that acceptable window of loss. For the most part, it works well enough, long enough, to be of great benefit to the Cult / program.
The program itself meets all the required criteria to be classified as a cult. Just as did the Seed and Straight before them; and Syanon before them.
People often want to equate "brainwashing" with things like education or religion or the military. In Cults on Our Midst, Singer tackles this issue head on, and explains why these legitimate organizations are not cults, and are not brainwashing people. Its a very good book. Anyone with an interest in these programs should read it. It explains a lot that seems otherwise incomprehensible.
All of that reminds me of going to church. Same sort of deal different sort of lecture/sermon and location.
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But what about the fact that it only contains 3 rustic looking buildings? there are not even any kids featured in its promotional material. No reference to their sleeping quarters, meals, classrooms? Looks pretty shitty from where i sit.
Look at red river academy. Appears pretty institutional.
http://www.redriveracademy.net/tour.html (http://www.redriveracademy.net/tour.html)
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You are of the informed sort. Put yourself in the shoes of some parent who has had the not so gentle mental minstrations of a teenhelp/Sue Scheff style sales pitch.
*They are freaked that their kids are going to end up deadorinjail.
*They are freaked that more than likely little jonny is freebasing in the bathroom.
blah blah blah...
Then you get the hard sell from a rep who is supported by a glowing set of parent statements.
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Oz Girl, I agree with you 100%. I was just presenting how desperate parents might view this one website and be drawn in by the "buzz words" and all the "family unification...academic...boarding school" bullshit. Then, actually think Spring Creek Lodge might be a good alternative.
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i suppose I can see this if a parent is in a flat panic. i am also not of the view that brainwashing is impossible, or that ALL parents who go with these schools, (even the WWASP ones) are horrible or stupid. This is why i mentioned the apparent wider social factors that can play a part and the need to address them.
But I do think that many schools seem to market to *some* parents who just don't like their kids or are a bit on the lazy, abusive or stupid side when confronted with the fact that their kid is becoming less convenient with every year.
To illustrate this point I was once in a debate with Waygookin about whether this industry could take off here in a meaningful way. i argued that it was unlikely as the culture was less into zero tolerance when it comes to young ppl and that we are less religiously conservative. Most Australians are also too cheap to pay 40 k for a boarding school when the most elite in the country are less than 20 k.
He then asked if there was a particularly low divorce rate or if there is an absence of child abuse. i realised that that we are pretty much in line with you guys on these issues and that there are plenty of struggling blended families where somebody does not like step mum. it then dawned on me that if the price was right a bad parent in any country could get rid of their child.
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I agree with Buzzkill. The parents are stressed out but that's not what makes them comitted to the program (it just gets them into the program). The LGATs make them comitted to the program. Not all programs do this but WWASP and CEDU clones definately do, and it's very effective... It doesn't just work on kids... LGATs were designed for adults and you really have to research how they work to understand how effective they are. If you've gone through one personally, you can probably speak of just how effective they are for most people (though I don't recommend going through to find out)
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On one hand if a kid is experiencing legal, mental health or substance abuse difficulties and there appears to be a lack of local social services or extremely heavy handed laws when it comes to petty youth crime and drug use then a program is going to be pretty tempting.
Many parents have complained of these issues and I can see how jail is a realistic fear in states with an excessive approach to youth crime or drug taking. While i recognize that Jail is ironically better than most programs I can see how the word Boarding School is going to sound better than jail to any reasonable parent.
You have hit on exactly the issues that caring parents face. Zero Tolerance policies and heavy handed punishments create more fear for parents than they do for teens. No parent wants to see their child denied the ability to finish his or her education, or to start their adult life with a criminal record that limits their ability to find the kind of job they want. Although jail or juvie may be less abusive than many programs, that fact is not obvious to desperate parents who are looking for solutions, or looking for ways to get around the Zero Tolerance madness and the long-term consequences their children may suffer from being labeled a "bad kid" by the state. On the surface, a boarding school seems like a better alternative than juvenile detention, limiting educational opportunities and limiting job opportunities.
This is why any real grass roots action needs to also look at lobbying for a far more sensible approach to young people on a local level. A shift away from ridiculous zero tolerance policy both in schools and with regard to policing is a start. Greater genuinely helpful and accesable mental health and medical services would also help in reducing the sense of desperation (false or otherwise) that parents feel. if nothing else a good non hysterical local doctor can reassure a parent who suspects their experimenting child is an addict.
That will require a political shift. Zero tolerance comes from the conservative "get tough on crime" folks, who tend to be the same folks that don't want to spend tax money on things like mental health services for youth. Even good non hysterical doctors are getting harder to find. Many times, it's a doctor or therapist who suggests the idea of a therapeutic boarding school to parents. I suspect in most cases they know absolutely nothing about what these programs really do, but they suggest them anyway as an option for troubled parents.
Having said this, it does seems that some parents are far more willing to buy in than others. Some of the things that kids to get sent to the industry for indicate that there is either hysteria on the parents part, a step parent who wants them sent away cause they are not cute any more or a parent who expects total obedience form the kid. I can remember reading about Paul Richards in help at any cost. On one hand his parents did appear brainwashed but on the other they were pretty shitty parents to begin with. They appeared to pretty much decide that their son was an asshole at ten and spend his adolescence picking fights with him and punishing him. Programs are always going to market to such people. So the question is were they brainwashed or were they assholes who just found like minded freaks?
The only solution to this is civil rights for youth. If you are legally treated as someone else's property, and that someone is an abusive asshole, you're pretty much screwed.
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Shit honey, I can barely read that... can ya make the font a little larger? Thanks!
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:rofl: :rofl:
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The brainwashing is the key. If we could get the masses educated with regard to what mind control is - how and why it works - we could stop all these programs dead cold.
[/b]
Exactly!!! Today, we are adult Survivors with the choice to "opt-in" and stand together against would-be abusers. They've used tactical torture from wars past to divide American families in the name of family values.
During the very moments we were ripped and humiliated until not even one tenuous shred of confidence remained, our parents were being charged up, like players on game day. They were hungry to eviscerate their enemy.
Their eyes gleamed with excitement as they delivered the final, devastating blows via microphone in a room full of hundreds each week. I find it ironic that we were forced, in the face of that hatred, to say the one thing we so desperately wanted to hear from them: I love you.
These programs exploited our families by first feeding on their love and concern for us before twisting it into anger and cementing the great divide. Once divided, they bled the insurance dry; and stole every penny we were "worth". They continued to rob me of a trusting relationship with my family, my education, relationships with men and my self-esteem.
I live with an indescribable rage against the injustice of it. My family lives with the guilt of hurting me when they thought they were helping. This experience also gave me the gift of knowing my own unwavering strength; I will no longer be silenced.
Our individual voices are no longer an occasional errant whimper easily justified by adolescent rebellion. We are a large group of organized, intelligent adult Survivors whose collective voice calls for justice. We can serve as spokespeople for both the children and the parents, encouraging them to unite. We seek to heal, not hurt. We seek to love, not hate.
:tup:
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The brainwashing is the key. If we could get the masses educated with regard to what mind control is - how and why it works - we could stop all these programs dead cold.
The brainwashing is the key - for the kids. I think that is exactly what some parents and the conservative party is looking for. They don't think there is anything wrong with brainwashing kids who are on destructive paths.
Psy, you say you support Buzz. I think Buzz probably really believes she was brainwashed, even though she said she never went to one of the LGAT seminars and, has no first hand knowledge of what goes on in one. I think Buzz was just easily influenced.
Can the argument be made that Buzz must have also been brainwashed by Scheff? Buzz spent many a post trying to prove me wrong about my beliefs about Scheff. Actually Buzz was Sue's main supporter at the time and she was the main one posting at the time and trying to prove I was wrong about Scheff. All I was trying to do was to warn parents about Scheff.
If you look back now, you will see that Buzz has deleted all of those posts she wrote in support of Scheff. Why? Is she no longer brainwashed? I guess if you want to say she is no longer under the influence of Scheff, that would be more applicable way of saying it. But would it be applicable to say she is no longer brainwashed by Scheff?
Was Buzz brainwashed about ALA and Craig Rogers? She posted in support of him - ALOT. She even tried to start a forum for him on the ALA website. She was an outspoken advocate for ALA. She was promoting ALA. Why do you view ALA differently than you do other programs? Is it because Buzz proclaims it to be an ok place. Is it because her son claims it to be an ok place. He worked there just like Ashly worked/works at Harbor Oaks. Buzz's son says ALA is ok and Ashlyn says that Harbor Oaks is ok. Why would you view ALA any differently than you do Harbor Oaks or Whitmore? There has been controversy in the past with Craig Rogers. He has had a program in the past with problems.
Psy, I ask you these questions because I am trying to understand. Also, I believing that brainwashing involves being held against ones will. I don't think Buzz or any other parent who attends these seminars becomes brainwashed. They can get up and leave at any time. I think they are influenced by peer pressure and the need for a perceived outcome that is in line with their way of thinking.
I am sure that this post will piss some people off. Please know that is not my intention. Change and accountability go hand in hand.
I also want to make clear the fact that I don't dislike Buzz. I think she has a good heart and good intentions. I even think she had good intentions back when she was supporting Sue. But I do think people who are easily influenced, people like Buzz, are the ones who are in danger of being manipulated by LGAT seminars and "self-proclaimed experts". I feel for them and I feel for their kids. But I don't think they are brainwashed.
Someone who is brainwashed does not have a choice in the matter. People who are being brainwashed don't have the option of getting up and walking out of the brainwashing seminar.
Maybe we are just splitting hairs here, but I think it is important to make the distinction between what these kids suffer from vs. what the parents suffer from.
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The brainwashing is the key. If we could get the masses educated with regard to what mind control is - how and why it works - we could stop all these programs dead cold.
The brainwashing is the key - for the kids. I think that is exactly what some parents and the conservative party is looking for. They don't think there is anything wrong with brainwashing kids who are on destructive paths.
Psy, you say you support Buzz. I think Buzz probably really believes she was brainwashed, even though she said she never went to one of the LGAT seminars and, has no first hand knowledge of what goes on in one. I think Buzz was just easily influenced.
Can the argument be made that Buzz must have also been brainwashed by Scheff? Buzz spent many a post trying to prove me wrong about my beliefs about Scheff. Actually Buzz was Sue's main supporter at the time and she was the main one posting at the time and trying to prove I was wrong about Scheff. All I was trying to do was to warn parents about Scheff.
If you look back now, you will see that Buzz has deleted all of those posts she wrote in support of Scheff. Why? Is she no longer brainwashed? I guess if you want to say she is no longer under the influence of Scheff, that would be more applicable way of saying it. But would it be applicable to say she is no longer brainwashed by Scheff?
Was Buzz brainwashed about ALA and Craig Rogers? She posted in support of him - ALOT. She even tried to start a forum for him on the ALA website. She was an outspoken advocate for ALA. She was promoting ALA. Why do you view ALA differently than you do other programs?
Good god.. I don't. Where did you get that Idea. All I said was that since his belief system already was in line with the program there was no need to coerce to the same degree, if at all (which is not saying it didn't happen, or doesn't happen to others who do not fit that mold).
Is it because Buzz proclaims it to be an ok place. Is it because her son claims it to be an ok place. He worked there just like Ashly worked/works at Harbor Oaks. Buzz's son says ALA is ok and Ashlyn says that Harbor Oaks is ok.
And they both probably believe it to be true... Whether an outsider would see it that way is another case altogether.
Why would you view ALA any differently than you do Harbor Oaks or Whitmore? There has been controversy in the past with Craig Rogers. He has had a program in the past with problems.
Psy, I ask you these questions because I am trying to understand.
Well. Part of the problem is your first sentence there below. You believe that brainwashing involves being held against the will. It doesn't always have to. All it really requires is a fair amount of stress in a person's life. Cults don't always keep people against their will, and they do use brainwashing. Study how Est / Lifespring work to see how.
Also, I believing that brainwashing involves being held against ones will. I don't think Buzz or any other parent who attends these seminars becomes brainwashed. They can get up and leave at any time.
Yes, and no. What are they told before they enter? That they can leave at any time, but doing so would be letting their kid down, they would not be let back, and they would have to do it over sometime. Plus, the group pressure to stay helps a lot. Margaret Singer wrote about how this works. More or less, the ability to leave anytime makes it more effective, since there is more submission to the group going on there (imo).
I think they are influenced by peer pressure and the need for a perceived outcome that is in line with their way of thinking.
I agree on the peer pressure but disagree that the outcome they are looking for is in line with the parent's existing way of thinking (there would be no point, then). They encourage you to let go of your pre-existing values, what is right and wrong, etc...
I am sure that this post will piss some people off. Please know that is not my intention. Change and accountability go hand in hand.
I also want to make clear the fact that I don't dislike Buzz. I think she has a good heart and good intentions. I even think she had good intentions back when she was supporting Sue. But I do think people who are easily influenced, people like Buzz, are the ones who are in danger of being manipulated by LGAT seminars and "self-proclaimed experts". I feel for them and I feel for their kids. But I don't think they are brainwashed.
Margaret Singer also wrote about the "it can't happen to me" phenomenon. Buzz understands a LOT about LGATs and hence would, in my opinion, stand a better chance of remaining influenced by them (becuase she knows how they work).
Someone who is brainwashed does not have a choice in the matter. People who are being brainwashed don't have the option of getting up and walking out of the brainwashing seminar.
Maybe we are just splitting hairs here, but I think it is important to make the distinction between what these kids suffer from vs. what the parents suffer from.
Oh.. By far there is a difference, but it would be a big mistake to underestimate the effect the seminars have on so many parents. Like I said, why do you think WWASP places such a heavy influence on their participation.
In the words of a french brainwashing expert: "[est / Landmark Forum] can do in days what it takes cults years to do".
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If you look back now, you will see that Buzz has deleted all of those posts she wrote in support of Scheff. Why?
BuzzKill has not deleted any post. You can find plenty of BuzzKill post defending Scheff's motivation - prior to March of 2005. They're all still there. I believed she was telling the truth (more or less) until there was proof I was wrong. You'll not find anything written by BuzzKill, in her defense, after that.
I never bring up ALA. With regard to ALA, I am in a no win situation. When someone else brings it up, and I fail to respond, I am hiding something. If I respond, with what is the truth for our family, I am a brainwashed devotee of the cult of Craig.
There is some truth to the cult like aspect of the Trekkers. I will freely acknowledge this to be so from my own perspective. That group operated much like any other small cult. I sometimes felt many of "us" had exchanged one cult for another. Like with any cult, there was a great reluctance to disagree with leader/guru; or oppose her on anything. If anyone did, they were evicted from the group. Most wanted to remain in the group badly enough to never openly oppose her on anything.
Mostly, I believe, this was motivated by a desire to retain access to information which came through Marie Pert to Sue, to the group; and also, from the sub-rose BBS account one member had; rather than any real devotion to Scheff. But, I did later learn that it was not unusual for *some* of the group members to refer parents to PURE for program placement - thus helping to enrich the guru. So, It was indeed, in some ways, very cult like.
Still, it is terribly unfair to paint them all as somehow sinister and unscrupulous. Most of these people were/are kind hearted and sensitive individuals, who truly sacrificed a great deal of time and resources to help educate other parents about the realities of Program life, and to help the teens who had been victimized by it. And not all were ex-program parents. Some were extended family members, who had fought hard to get their young grand children, nieces or nephews and even neighbors out of the program.
Painting them all with one brush - calling them PUREST or Puppets, Stupid, mindless and wishy washy - and suggesting they all deserve to be litigated into oblivion for their stupidity, is just plan wrong. Attempting to bring about their collective destruction by selling them out to WWASP was vicious, hateful, spiteful, malicious. It devastated the efforts to educate the parents and secure the removal of students.
As a result of the rental by WWASP, of the Bock lap top, there was a real threat of many being added to the case against PURE. This haulted or crippled all the grass roots efforts of this group; and caused some to feel they needed to erase much of the work they had done, so it wouldn't be used in court against them or others.
Access to the BBS was also lost as a result of this Bock lap top rental; which made continuing to reach out to the program parents who seemed doubtful, impossible. This very likely caused some teens who would have been pulled early on, to instead live out the full and complete program experience. WWASP was, I am certain, most grateful.
They were in fact so grateful - so anxious to obtain this lap top - that they paid 12,500 for access to it; and flew one of their lawyers down to Louisiana to pick it up, and take Mz Bock to dinner. So, one can hardly argue anything about this act was intended to help the kids; unless you want to try and argue that the Program is helping kids.
I think Buzz probably really believes she was brainwashed,
I never said I was brainwashed. I said in fact, I could feel the influence effecting my thoughts and decisions. I believe I was in the early stages - when doubt in ones own convictions is being eroded, prior to implanting the "new" convictions for the benefit of the "cult". I believe this, because I know how hard it was for me to pull my son, even tho all my common sense was screaming at me to do so. Something made me afraid. I believe that something to have been the beginning stages of the process. I do believe those who attend the seminars, and come out of it changed, and thinking this is great, (even when their families fall apart afterward, because they must shun all non-supporting members) have been brainwashed, and have joined a cult.
I do think this is the key to understanding how these program stay in business despite their horrible reputation and performance. You have the faithful legions to contend with any time the debate goes public - and they are very sincere and very adamant that the program saved them and their family. The truth - that they haven't spoken to their child in a year or more has nothing to do with it - and those lacking inside knowledge, seldom think to ask.
Those who insist the program was a life saver, despite the fact their kid has fallen into far worse shape than before the program; and/or despite the fact, they have divorced a spouse they loved, and/or are shunning their own parents and siblings for not being supportive; are not rational, free thinking persons. They are brainwashed members of a cult.
I think it is important to understand this. I think education is the key. How to educate the masses in the numbers required is the question. I'm sorry if I derailed the thread by bringing this up - but I do feel it is important.
I do also want to add that yes, Zero tolerance is part of the problem - and this is something we also need to address when ever possible.
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Buzzkill, weren't you using different "nics" back then and these are the posts Bock is referring to as being deleted or edited? If so, please clarify because frankly, I think if you were using a different name than buzzkill and erasing/deleting posts, Bock would be making a fair statement. Why beat around the bush?
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That will require a political shift. Zero tolerance comes from the conservative "get tough on crime" folks, who tend to be the same folks that don't want to spend tax money on things like mental health services for youth. Even good non hysterical doctors are getting harder to find. Many times, it's a doctor or therapist who suggests the idea of a therapeutic boarding school to parents. I suspect in most cases they know absolutely nothing about what these programs really do, but they suggest them anyway as an option for troubled parents.
I agree. There is a lack of good mental health services here as well. It only ever becomes an issue at election time. i think that the professionals who recommend programs are morally reprihensible and should be reported to the local medical board. As someone who has a sibling who is a family doctor I know about 30% of what she deals with are parents who found their kid's stash. The standard "treatment" is to talk to the kid privately about the genuine risks, do the same with the parent but also reassure them thatbtheir kid is not a junkie and send them on their way. In the rare event of a kid with a real problem they whole family are called in and discuss the best way to go. It is *extremely* rare that some sort of institution is used. is there much of a political movement away from zero tolerance? How would you start one?
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Can Carey and Buzzkill please settle this private score on PM? This really has nothing to do with grassroots action
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Can Carey and Buzzkill please settle this private score on PM? This really has nothing to do with grassroots action
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is there much of a political movement away from zero tolerance? How would you start one?
I think this is relevant to the topic of a grass-roots movement against programs, because programs thrive on parents' fears, and many of those fears are driven by the zero tolerance mentality, and the harsh and long-lasting consequences of zero tolerance laws and zero tolerance educational and social policies.
How do you start a political movement? Well, it helps if a large % of the population has been affected by misguided policies. I think we're getting close to reaching that critical mass in the U.S. regarding the damaging effects of zero tolerance on millions of lives. At some point, enough Americans will have been affected to where they may collectively agree that things have got to change, and that the solution to society's behavioral problems is not simply to lock everyone up.
The U.S. has only 5% of the world's population, but we have 25% of the world's prisoners -- more than any other nation. China, with more than 4 times as many people, has fewer prisoners than the U.S. At the end of 2006, the Justice Department reported a record 7 million Americans either in prison, on parole or on probation. That's not counting all those who once were in prison, on parole or probation, but have since completed their sentences and are living free. The total number of living Americans with criminal records is easily in the tens of millions -- more than the total population of your country, Oz Girl (and they say that Oz was founded by convicts!).
2 million Americans are arrested every year for drug crimes. Another 2.5 million are arrested every year for alcohol crimes. Combined, that's more than 1 out of every 70 Americans that gets arrested every year for either drug or alcohol offenses.
Do we make any attempt to offer help to those who want it, or do we just throw bigger obstacles in their way? Well let's see...for a first offense DUI, you get mandatory jail time -- possibly enough to cause someone to lose their job. Repeat offenders get more jail time, bigger fines, etc. First offense marijuana possession, you get probation and mandatory drug testing. Violating probation or repeat offenses will get you jail time. Or for college students, any drug arrest (not even a conviction, just an arrest) can cost you your financial aid and possibly get you permanently expelled from school.
At some point in the not-too-distant future, there will be more American families damaged by zero tolerance than not. We may even reach the point where there are more people with criminal records than without. At that point, maybe we will collectively decide that we're going about all this the wrong way, and that our society and our economy can't afford to keep building more and more prisons and have such a large % of our workforce under-utilized due to lost educational opportunities and the stigma of trying to find a decent job when you have a criminal record.
"insanedeadorinjail" may be a popular program marketing slogan, and we all know that very few people go insane or die from their adolescent turbulence and everything that goes with it. But jail is not a fantasy -- it's very much a reality for many of our citizens. Many program parents and potential program parents are terrified of what that means for their kids, and with that fear, they can be very susceptible to the program sales pitch that claims to offer solutions that are outside of the legal system.
If we didn't live in a police state, that sales pitch would be much less effective.
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You can get arrested for an Alcohol crime????
When you say people are arrested for drugs- Is some of that stat drug related crime (theft to support habits etc) or just possesion and consumption related?
How would someone go about setting up an end zero tolerance lobby group? or some sort of similar think tank? This is an interesting issue becasue there is not necessarily a liberal conservative divide in those who oppose it. many Americans who I have spoken to are on one level quite conservative also extend this view to staying out of peoples lives when it comes to civil liberty issues. This is different to here where most gonservatives are total hypocrites when it comes to civil liberties. This is prolly one of the few things that bleeding heart liberals like myself have in common with the American Free market Neo Cons. Given this lack of divide on civil liberty issues are there any think tanks (liberal and free market) or lobby groups that would take this zero tolerance issue up?
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Alcohol crimes, yes of course. DUI is the most common -- 1.8 million of those 2.5 million arrests per year. The rest are things like public intoxication or other liquor law violations like underage drinking and open containers in cars.
The drug crime stat I mentioned was just for possession. Other crimes -- you mentioned theft to support a habit -- are not counted as drug arrests, even though some number of thefts or other property crimes are probably related to drug habits.
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Id forgotten to factor DUI in.
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The website Crime in the United States, published by the U.S.Department of Justice and the FBI; lists offenses by Region, State, Local Agency and year.
It does show arrests for "Drunkenness" and "DUi"
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_45.html (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_45.html)
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You can get arrested for an Alcohol crime????
Well, in addition to DUI, which was mentioned before, you can also get arrested for drunk and disorderly, as well as open bottle, if you are in a city/state that has such a policy. .(Open bottle means that you have an open bottle of beer on public streets, as opposed to a bar.)
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or if you have an open container of alcohol and you are a passenger in a car..... or if you have a ride mower and you take it down the street to mow a neighbors lawn and you have been drinking or are holding a beer.
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I suppose technically you can be arrested for these things anywhere. it is just whether the police bother to and the extent to which the judge bothers to enforce any kind of real penalty.
A laywer I know once had to defend a 20 year old who drunkenly jumped onto the bar and exposed himself as a $50.00 bet during a particularly rowdy foot ball victory celebration. The magistrate fined him the 50.00 and no conviction was recorded.
http://www.aclu.org/index.html (http://www.aclu.org/index.html)
http://www.jlc.org/EZT/ (http://www.jlc.org/EZT/)
here are some links to some civil libertarian associations. What does anyone know about them? have they had any real wins?
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Couldn't agree more Karass. Your spot on there. The civil penalties for minor drug related infractions devastate a person's ability to get a job or an education. Ironically, gainful employment and education are the two most effective solutions to the problem of substance abuse.
In my state, I have had reason to learn, a second paraphernalia charge is a felony. If a felony goes on your rap sheet, getting any job worth having (that is legal) is extremely difficult. The state can effectively set a young person up for a life of crime, on society's fringes, by making it impossible for them to find a decent job or get an education - and all this because they got pulled over for going 10 over - and had a pipe in the car. How stupid is that?
If we would decriminalize individual drug use; Stop worring about the hill-billies growing pot instead of distilling moonshine - put the funds that currently go into eradicating marijuana fields in KY and CA for example; and put that money into providing adequate mental health services for those who request it; and drug rehabilitation for those who want it; and job training and education for those who want it - we could soon find ourselves living in a much better place.
I don't advocate ignoring the problem of drug abuse; and I am not saying it isn't a serious and destructive problem for many people. I am saying spend the money to fight the destruction in a common sense way - one that actually helps people. We've got to stop crippling our young men and women's ability to improve their lives by labeling them criminals, when they are in fact perfectly normal, decent young folk, who are going through the same life stages their folks went threw - and would come out of it just fine, if not saddled with a felony for smoking pot.
I'd agree that making this point with every politician you can would be an important part of any grass roots effort.
I'd also agree that the effect of zero tolerance cause a great deal of the stress a parent experiences when their son or daughter is using and getting caught. The consequences are far more serious than they were back in "our day", because of zero tolerance policies. There is a powerful incentive to try and save your goofy teen from crippling their potential in the ways described - and these programs can seem like a fine way to go about this.
So, even if you don't really expect the miracle promised - If you don't know about the abuse potential, and you assume they are regulated by the states and professional boards (because, after all - how can a facility of any kind, that houses children on the grounds and takes responsibility for their education and therapeutic needs, not be regulated and overseen by the state and other professional governing boards?) you can take some comfort in the fact your son or daughter is not likely to get busted while there.
So, yes, it is most definitely a factor.
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I suppose technically you can be arrested for these things anywhere. it is just whether the police bother to and the extent to which the judge bothers to enforce any kind of real penalty.
A laywer I know once had to defend a 20 year old who drunkenly jumped onto the bar and exposed himself as a $50.00 bet during a particularly rowdy foot ball victory celebration.
Well. I was at this bar last week with frends and some young woman did the exact same thing (though I dont' think it was a bet... she was just really drunk). The only thing the Bartender bothered to do was take out his camera phone. Somehow i doubt most cops would have arrested her either.
The magistrate fined him the 50.00 and no conviction was recorded.
http://www.aclu.org/index.html (http://www.aclu.org/index.html)
http://www.jlc.org/EZT/ (http://www.jlc.org/EZT/)
here are some links to some civil libertarian associations. What does anyone know about them? have they had any real wins?
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I got caught pissing in a garbage can in college when I was drunk. The cop laughed at me and told me to go home.
It is all very subjective and dependent on the officer.
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I thought this might be of some interest to our more net savvy youngsters ;)
As seen on the CNN web site:
I-REPORT
Ask Jimmy Carter something
Send your video questions to the former U.S. president, who will appear on The Situation Room on Wednesday
I'd suggest asking if Mr. Carter, who has shown so much humanitarian concern for various Africans and Palestinians, and so on, if he would be willing to show similar concern for young Americans being held in these abusive, private for profit facilities? Explain briefly the common use of stress positions, sleep deprivation an other forms of mental and physical battering - so similar to the controversial treatment of the Iraqi prisoners. Ask if he will help speak out against this outrage - Oh and be sure to mention the republican connection and history of involvement.
Even if it doesn't get aired - someone is screening these - it might help highten awarness - maybe get a furture story done. . . Seems worth a shot.
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Would he even be aware?
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No - I doubt he would - but thats the point. Make him aware. And, keep the heat on CNN to cover this story.
Maybe a few letters to Anderson Cooper might be in order; thanking him for his extended coverage of the Vick Pit Bull abuse scandal - and asking him to take similar interest and concern for the institutional abuse of American Teens in Private for Profit gulags.
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I got caught pissing in a garbage can in college when I was drunk. The cop laughed at me and told me to go home.
It is all very subjective and dependent on the officer.
Cops on college campuses ain't what they used to be. If you did that today, you would most likely be arrested for public intoxication and public indecency at a minimum. You would have disciplinary action from the university that would cost you some money and waste your time. That's above and beyond the official court appearance you would have to make and the sentence they would give you -- probation, mandatory counseling or alcohol awareness classes, more fines and maybe some community service.
A huge heap of shit just for being drunk and pissing in a garbage can.
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I got caught pissing in a garbage can in college when I was drunk. The cop laughed at me and told me to go home.
It is all very subjective and dependent on the officer.
Cops on college campuses ain't what they used to be. If you did that today, you would most likely be arrested for public intoxication and public indecency at a minimum. You would have disciplinary action from the university that would cost you some money and waste your time. That's above and beyond the official court appearance you would have to make and the sentence they would give you -- probation, mandatory counseling or alcohol awareness classes, more fines and maybe some community service.
A huge heap of shit just for being drunk and pissing in a garbage can.
Prolly worst than that as the garbage can was inside a building.
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I got caught pissing in a garbage can in college when I was drunk. The cop laughed at me and told me to go home.
It is all very subjective and dependent on the officer.
Cops on college campuses ain't what they used to be. If you did that today, you would most likely be arrested for public intoxication and public indecency at a minimum. You would have disciplinary action from the university that would cost you some money and waste your time. That's above and beyond the official court appearance you would have to make and the sentence they would give you -- probation, mandatory counseling or alcohol awareness classes, more fines and maybe some community service.
A huge heap of shit just for being drunk and pissing in a garbage can.
i'd have to disagree. it depends on many factors such as which college, the type of town, your reputation, your appearance, your ethnic and economic backround, and if the officer feels you will actually listen and go home or go out and cause trouble.
since i was 14 i've been caught smoking weed by the cops multiple times. every time they just questioned me, took my stash and let me go, twice with the same cop. i only recently got a ticket for smoking, and it was because it was the same cops 3rd time catching me. and it's just a $100 ticket, and it doesnt stay on my record. the reason i've never had trouble before its because whenever i was caught i was very respectfull, i was not obnoxious yet i did crack a few jokes, and i'm a clean-cut jewish boy.
if you dress like a punk the cops will treat you like one, if you dress like a bussinessman the cops will likewise, treat you as one. if you consider them the enemy, they will consider you likewise, but if you understand that it's their job they'll understand youre just trying to smoke a jay to relax.
we all hate profiling, but smart people use it to their advantage. idiots just provoke their own mistreatment. you cant change how a cop thinks, but you can change how they look at you.
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Resistance is futile. If you resisted lockup in the Roloff Homes, they used more people to put you in, including the other kids, and the beatings were much worse for all the protest. I would not encourage resistance in one of these facilities, they have no problem with escalating the violence.
Lorri
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I got caught pissing in a garbage can in college when I was drunk. The cop laughed at me and told me to go home.
It is all very subjective and dependent on the officer.
Cops on college campuses ain't what they used to be. If you did that today, you would most likely be arrested for public intoxication and public indecency at a minimum. You would have disciplinary action from the university that would cost you some money and waste your time. That's above and beyond the official court appearance you would have to make and the sentence they would give you -- probation, mandatory counseling or alcohol awareness classes, more fines and maybe some community service.
A huge heap of shit just for being drunk and pissing in a garbage can.
Prolly worst than that as the garbage can was inside a building.
Don't tase me bro!!!
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I was thinking one night how neat it would be if survivors would give speeches at universities about the industry and their experience. I'm not sure how that could be accomplished but it would be a way to do something real that gets others involved.
"Speaking engagements"
Just like they made us do to advertise for the program....I likey likey this idea.
-DP
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Perhaps some of you guys who went to these schools/wilderness places but are now uni students or alumni could approach various university heads of relevant departments like psych, social work or teaching and ask to do a 1 off guest lecture.
It seems many young people who get hired by these places as their first graduate job do so out of a desire to make a difference. A real description of what the effect of this crap is could send a powerful message.