Post by: SurvivorEMSR on June 08, 2003, 03:04:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: SurvivorEMSR on 2003-06-08 12:05 ]
Post by: Anonymous on June 08, 2003, 03:35:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on June 09, 2003, 08:58:00 AM
Post by: Carmel on June 16, 2003, 12:31:00 PM
In Dallas-Straight we went through all sorts of "changes" depending on who was investigating what and when. I was interviewed several times by investigators regarding what went on in the building. Soon after, there were lots of "changes". For example...."cop-outs" were now called "elopers". "Misbehavers" were now called "non-compliants"....etc. Just because the names changed made no difference in any way shape or form. But it was suposedly mandated by the investigators. I dont know how they thought that was going to make a difference.
We were also instructed that at no time was any other client allowed to restrain another client, only staff was supposed to. Well, that lasted for all of a few weeks. When it got to the point where so many kids were running for the door that other NEWCOMERS actually had to restrain them....that whole concept was trashed.
Just because those kids might get to piss by themselves now, doesnt mean that they arent still being subjected to 24 hour mental abuse and verbal degredation. I would gladly have given up my right to wipe my ass in private for the chance to not be screamed at for 12 hours a day, or be in constant fear of it.
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2003, 09:11:00 PM
Post by: METALGOD8 on June 20, 2003, 11:49:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on June 27, 2003, 09:08:00 AM
Post by: butternationalist on June 29, 2003, 01:19:00 PM
by the way anyone who wants to protest these commies can go to comerica park on july 26,2000 Detroit, MI.
you know pathway is desperate when they send donation request letters to parents of a pull. they wont even talk to you after you leave but theyd still love tho have your money, oops.... i mean "support" fuck you guys---smith
Post by: Anonymous on June 30, 2003, 11:44:00 AM
Frankly, this program is not for everyone. Those who chose it instead of a prison sentence for their stupidity and drug or alcohol addiction should have just opted for prision and found out what mind control and physical abuse is all about. ( Don't forget to pack you tub of Vaseline too ) Why parents put in so much effort to prevent their children from death or a major screw-up of their lives when their children (at least the ones who write articles in here) is beyond my comprehension. I say let social Darwinism weed out those who truely wish to continue to use drugs in amounts that are incompatable with life.
I came into this program willingly and have learned a lot about parenting and independently of my child ever figuring out a balance in life, I have found mine,so has my child by the way. I am sorry that you have not found yours. Perhaps you will some day. Some it takes the first 30 -40 or so years of life. When you do, look back and ask yourself ... Did it really have to take this long? What happened to my youth? What treasures in life had I not discovered because I was consumed by my self-centeredness, my own will to do what I wanted at any cost to those around me, and to myself? I hope life works out for you but at this point, I guess I really do not care... sink or swim .... it's your problem now. Hope you learned enough tools in life to survive. Hope you learned enough to have more out of life than to just exist. I guess it is up to you right???? In any event take responsibility for your own screw-ups. Pathway found you as a messed-up child and you want to blame them for continuing to be messed-up???hmmmmm Isn't anyone responsible for their own shit anymore??? Don't expect a program to totally undo your entire past. Don't expect them to erase heredity issues. But for God's sake...you give the program much too much credit for screwing up you life...they only had you for 1 to 2 years. Too bad they didn't raise you from birth... then you could blame them for all your problems. (but you want others to believe that is the case right????)
Ahhhh but you will say ... the program brainwashes the kids and the parents. In fact what you are saying is that you have a weak mind incapable of independent reasoning. Well apparently those who meet the clients at NA or AA meetings are extreemly impressed with most of the kids that come to their meetings. The only comments I hear when I have face to face meetings is how they wished they had such a program when they were that age and saved them all the heartache they have had in their lives. hmmmmm they must have been brainwashed by association too!!!!!
Are there faults with the program? Yes of course there are. As Winston Churchill (former WWW II prime minister of Great Britain for those who don't know) once said "Democracy is the worst form of government in the world ... except for all the rest" For me and my family, Pathway is the worst form of substance abuse treatment in the world except for all the rest!!!!
I write this to give balance to the crap I have seen written in here so that other parents who may choose to TRY to help their FAMILY have an informed and opposite point of view. I do not write this to disuade you of your issues. That would be impossible for me to do or have desire for me to do. As is the rest of YOUR life, it's for YOU to deal with.... so DEAL WITH IT AND QUIT WHINING ABOUT HOW BAD THINGS ARE FOR YOU AND DO SOMETHING FOR YOURSELF TO MAKE IT BETTER!!! Let those who choose this route make up their own mind if you truely believe they have one.
Kudos to Ms. Rowe for the changes she has instituted. My hat is off to all the families and staff involved in Pathway who help make it a positive place to learn about how to handle life. She is a compassionate and devoted to her lifework as are all the staff members. Hold your heads up high. I for one thank you :wave: for all you have done for me and my family.... Enough said... I feel better that's all that matters.
:wave:
Post by: Anonymous on June 30, 2003, 01:14:00 PM
Post by: METALGOD8 on June 30, 2003, 04:32:00 PM
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on June 30, 2003, 05:52:00 PM
Hmmmmmm as Rodney Dangerfield said in the movie "Back to School" ....the Professor says "Where should build our factory?" Rodney's reply... "How about Fantasy Land?" Your FREE help will be found there as well. Even if it was government funded... YOU are still paying for it in taxes or donations. Ask your mom or dad if they go to work for free? Do you? You sound like it is a sin to earn a living at what they do. Apparently their years spent in college should should go unrewarded. Next time you look at a bill for an inpatient stay for drug dependency hospital, ask again how reasonable the costs at Pathway are. But again, maybe the original reason for the drug use was to stay in Fantasy Land, it stands to reason why someone try to apply rules from what they knew to other situations.
B.T.W... was the cost of the crack free? If so ... for how long? What did you have to do to pay those costs? I am sure although very difficult for most to afford, it is still,in relation to other treatment programs affordable. Why? because of the personal involvement of all the families in housing.
But you can fix this all by yourself. Go through a masters program in college or a doctorate program for social work and psychology and offer your services for free. YOU have the power to right these wrongs all by yourself instead of moaning why others don't do it your way. Hmmmmm again, I don't think this will get an intelligent response back but at least writing it makes it public for others to read :wink:
Post by: METALGOD8 on June 30, 2003, 09:32:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 01, 2003, 11:33:00 AM
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 01, 2003, 12:28:00 PM
Pathway appears to be a money making machine to me... ie: charging a huge sum for treatment and making the parents pay for incidentals and urging them to be sponsoring and/or participating in fundraising events.
Will you be answering the other questions I had posted concerning first phasers?
One other thing... Why do you make "points" by being sarcastic, crude, slanderous, and generally mean?
I suppose nobody is perfect :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 01, 2003, 05:10:00 PM
I will never disagree with you that drug treatment is expensive in this country. I will point out that for more involved treatment, Pathway is not that bad in price. (As compared to other options) We really could discuss this for a long time and your feelings about the cost are valid, but I am going to give you some homework to do:
You are the parent of a drug abusing child who has either already came close to dying of an overdose or has caused so much turmoil in the family setting that you do not have an option of allowing that child to live at home one more day or as an alternative to a long jail sentence. (These are the only type of admissions to the program I have seen) Your assignment is to find a program that can at least 1. give a safe environment for your child to dry out and 2.to begin to deal with things they have been running away from. Please remember your kid is going to be hostile because there is no desire for him to stop using, it may take a while for him to get in a frame of mind to look at himself and see past the anger. You are going to have to wait this out and time is money. So you assignment is to find me a drug rehab program that has 24 hour care, 8 hours a day of therapy (any type of therapy social worker,psychologist, peer staff, peer to peer) (I will accept any program within 1 state of Michigan) You must like the program enough to stay until it is clear all the help you can give your child has been attempted or completed. Please tell me what the program name is and a phone number that I can call and confirm your information or an internet site that I can review the information. Then lets compare the costs. Lets also compare that to 3 hots and a cot in a nursing home for unskilled care. A very basic home in Michigan will start around $5,000.00 a month... ($60K a year) and that does nothing more than house them. I will even accept an answer by you that does not offer therapy for the rest of the family as part of the overall cost.... Let's see what you come up with.
So if Pathway is money hungry, this is your chance to proove this to me and the rest of the world. I for one, if I can find a less expensive equivalent therapy setting with equal results, I would consider it in a heartbeat. But I will tell you I considered many options when it became necessary to consider these things for my child. The most pressing concern I had was not the cost but what the finished product was of those who graduated the program. I did not ask Pathway about the program until I interviewed graduates from the program. I came to them looking for answers they did not seek me out (local quick-fix rehab programs had waiting lists that meant weeks before a spot became available and the cost quoted was $1,000.00 per day). I did not talk to "pulls" for answers to my questions, only to kids who were lucky enough to afford the therapy and had the courage to look real hard at themselves and didn't like what they saw and made changes in their life. So for me, this was an opportunity for my child to learn a method of remaining clean and to enjoy life. It was clearly stated that it was an opportunity to learn something new to help with problems. Use it, don't use it the choice is yours but I will not allow you back into my home under present conditions.
So you are now the parent. Put my shoes on for a while. Let's see how you handle the responsibility of your child and the decisions you are faced with in life. Let me know what you come up with as solutions. :smile:
Post by: Anonymous on July 01, 2003, 07:38:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 01, 2003, 07:45:00 PM
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 01, 2003, 09:18:00 PM
Before I go researching affordable non-abusive, legal and otherwise credible drug treatment for the rest of the world and the 6 of my drug free children, you will have to answer the questions I have posted in this topic and the one called "Kathy Row". Also, please identify yourself. I prefer two way streets.
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 08:13:00 AM
LOL ~ ASSIGNMENT???? Hell, I think someone should give YOU, the parent, the 'homework assignment', you sure paint the hell out of your kid as the one with all the 'problems' on that magical canvas of yours. I gather you must be some kind of family who for the most part both parents were working or at least too occupied to get involved with your own kid. ~ (remember that sucker phrase the "program" teaches you?, "take an open mind"...... I think it's a lot cheaper to really take an interest in your child in their earlier years and gain trust with them. Why are you in this mentality that when things don't go your way concerning your kid and his/her choices, that you just turn your back on him and 'drop' him off somewhere to be babysat? I only wish it were that easy, I wish I could say that all they were doing in there at PFC was guarding your kid. But while he is there, they are putting some horrific things in their minds that will be permanent life-long trauma. When you start telling a kid that that are worthless pieces of shit, telling them that everything is a 'privilege, not allow them Any God Damned privacy, NO private recreation time, NO unmonitored phone calls to parents, you are creating a whole new monster, who in the coming years will have a mountain of shit to pick up that YOU and PFC left behind for him. Maybe you should just surrender that kid of yours to someone more stable than yourself. You have certainly demonstrated your incompetence as a parent.
"Put my shoes on for a while. Let's see how you handle the responsibility of your child and the decisions you are faced with in life. Let me know what you come up with as solutions."
Your shoes???? LOL, what a joke, you made your own Damned bed. If you had done the right things as a parent in the first place, you never would of allowed a cult to get a hold of your kid. All your money and all the kings men in the world are not going to be able to fix your little Johnny or Suzie. That has always begun with you and still you fail as a parent to set an example. You blame him for everything that ever went 'wrong' in your lives don't you? What do you do when he grows up and gets educated on brainwashing and how they applied it on him at Pathway?????? And please don't lie to yourself and say that it won't happen, the internet is not going anywhere, he will someday read these BB's.
Post by: Carmel on July 02, 2003, 10:28:00 AM
One being the fact that drugs are a symptom of a bigger problem. Just because you remove the drugs, doesnt mean that your kid is not going to be completely fucked up still.
Two, The idea that the only children you ever saw admitted into Pathway were severe cases that needed intervention, otheriwse death or jail were the only options left. You see, we were ALL those sorts of kids....even if we werent even close. We were made to ADMIT we were that bad, the parents were manipulated to BELEIVE we were that bad...and in order to not be physically and mentally abused on a daily basis....we CREATED a persona that was that bad.
85% of the people in my group were not addicts, were not in danger of death or jail. Many of them had only ever smoked pot once, or gotten drunk a few times. But I promise, by the time they were on 3-4th phase...they were messed up druggie losers who never would have had a chance without the program. Forget sexual abuse, physical and mental abuse in the home...those werent at fault, it was the DRUGS. That is very simply not true.
When I admitted to my mother that my father had sexually abused me, the only feedback I ever got was a confrontation by the group that in being "emotional" about my admitting to the issue, that I was attempting to manipulate my mother to pull me out of the program. The fact was, when I got out of Straight, all the messed up crap at home that was responsible for my lashing out, was still right there waiting for me when I got back.
Post by: Carmel on July 02, 2003, 10:31:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 10:42:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 11:29:00 AM
Hugs and I wish you well in your struggles in life. :smile:
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 02, 2003, 11:40:00 AM
:smokin:
Post by: Carmel on July 02, 2003, 12:01:00 PM
You see, everything you just explained to me I have heard a thousand times before. The same words, the same phrases and their respective contexts. NOTHING about what you just explained to me sounds foriegn or at all unlike what was taught in my program. Therefore, it is difficult for me to believe that where the modaility exists, the abuse does not.
The fate of my program was left in the hands of a second phase oldcomer who wouldnt vote for me to move forward for months on end. All because, in her infinite wisdom as a 15 year old troubled kid, felt that I was "arrogant". I tried my very best to do what I was told and to be "honest" and I was repeatedly held back from any contact with my mother or family. Im sorry, but children in such dire circumstances as you have defined do not need to be "treated" by other messed up kids. The very last thing I am going to do is spend 30,000 or 20,000 or even 10 bucks on treatment for my kid by an unqualified teenager. The basis of the treatment that PFC and Straight are modeled after leaves a huge margin for personal judgement and interferance. THAT is the part that the parents do not see, cannot see, and should be very very frightened of. Being yelled at, called a loser, a liar, a worthless human being.....all from kids who dont even know how or what they are judging against other than the fact that if they dont, they will be put in the shoes of the one they are confronting. Thats a HORRIBLE way to do any kind of recovery, I dont care how you look at it. Treatment and recovery should not be the lesser of two evils.
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 12:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-01 16:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Whats wrong with taking time off your work and following the kid around for a while. Really getting involved in his life. I mean he has to be getting drugs somewhere, if you're there he wouldn't get them. Come on there are many things that can be done!!!"
One of my closest friends did exactly what you said... took a sabatical from his job and spent quality time with her. End result he thought the drug use cut way down..wrong... his daughter just switched to something he wasn't testing for. She was not allowed to go anywhere without direct parental supervision. Her druggie friends just left stashes of drugs outside her window. One of the reasons in Pathway the windows where the kids sleep are alarmed. My observation is that I can control the drug use somewhat but I cannot affect the reasons for its use and controlling someone's every move merely delays a problem ...it doesn't try to fix it. If your parents listen and participate in Pathway, they do become more involved with their child and in meaningful ways. Do all parents heed this...no... do all kids????? NO
I am not saying that what you say is groundless. In fact has a lot of merrit to be more involved in your childs life. My wife was home with all our children while they were growing up and involved with each one. Your solution though does not apply to the kids I have seen needing the level of intervention Pathway provided. Believe me, I did not stand in line trying to figure out the most difficult inhumane way to solve a problem. I did look at what was needed to make more than a bandaid approach to make long term solutions. :smile: Hugs
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 01:26:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 01:41:00 PM
First phasers and ONLY first phasers use the bathroom with the door OPEN. This means it is not locked and in my home was never open more than about 4 inches from the closed position. It is not intended to humiliate the kids. Members of the opposite sex are not allowed in the area when it is being used for bathing or using the toilet or taking care of sanitary needs. This is significantly much less exposure kids had in gym class or swimming where communal showers are used. So why????????????????? What possible reason is there for the door being open??? It is not to humiliate someone, it is intended to make sure they 1. do not injure themselves. Lift the toilet tank and drop the lid. Many sharp peices of porcelain can quickly be used to cut wrists. Or the mirror, a quick hit and it too can be used as a weapon or to cause injury to one's self or others while in a bad place mentally. 2. make sure drugs are not secretly being used. Are all first phasers a candiate for this concern? NO It was however treating people EQUALLY and so to single out specific individuals for security concerns, in my view, makes that individual feel more isolated and different from others. Could this policy change? Yes/no.... I do not know. I would be willing to look at it...possibly remove that situation once the child is on T & R talk and responsibility level of the first phase. I know as a parent with guests in my home, I will not be sued for someone having feelings of humiliation. I could be succesfully sued for not safeguarding against reasonably assumed risks so I can live with the first phasers "earning" the right to have that priveledge.... or shall I say giving me a reasonable assurance they are not at undue risk in my home.
I am sure others will find fault with this. That is their privelege. I offer it as my feelings as to why I personally do not have a problem with it. This is to ease concern of the parents NOT Pathway!!! Pathway, up to this point has agreed with host home committee that it is a reasonable approach.
Hugs :smile:
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 01:50:00 PM
This moral inventory crap. What about the REASONS for doing wrong and instead of beating yourself up, understand why you are the way you are. Defects of character, and (anger is one of them according to Pathway), well where does that anger go if you don't recognize and feel and talk about where it came from, which IS from your childhood. It's OK to be angry, raging but to not turn it on someone or yourself. It's an emotion which your body has to release.Geez this 12 step crap has got to stop. It's making everyone think they can't help themselves!! You become addicted to the program!
There IS NO GENE for drug (and alcohol is a drug)addiction. And it is not a disease, other than the disease process of what it does to the body longterm. Anyone read Peter Breggin? He talks about how we drug our kids with any mind altering drug like antidepressants and stimulants. They do not feel emotions they need to and talk about them, to have some control over them. So Pathway does this after the kid starts to feel and becomes emotional. Is this stupid or what?
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 02:03:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 02:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-02 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It would have been a whole lot cheaper to have alarmed your house. Your friend wasn't with his daughter at all times was he. That's what I meant, right there. Then take your child to a therapist every day. A bitch but my God better than Pathway. Hard work being a parent. Also a trip to Pathway to see what happens might help too."
Yes ... alarming the whole house is cheaper than Pathway. Pathway is NOT howerver more expensive than loosing my wages for the remaining years of my child's expected drug years while I am teathered to them without being even allowed to sleep. If you guys want to talk about humuliation, go thru the next 3 or 4 years with your parent by your immediate side. Explain to all you meet he or she is there to prevent me from doing harm to myself. There is a real self-esteem booster. It would make me feel better about myself.(NOT) Apparently the issue is that Pathway was involved in my humiliation. If my mom or dad does it to me I can handle that. Did ya grow by learning anything new on the way? Or did you just harbor more deepened resentments?
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 02:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-02 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It would have been a whole lot cheaper to have alarmed your house. Your friend wasn't with his daughter at all times was he. That's what I meant, right there. Then take your child to a therapist every day. A bitch but my God better than Pathway. Hard work being a parent. Also a trip to Pathway to see what happens might help too."
<... to add on to that....
"Then take your child to a therapist every day" .
Average cost of a therapist is $150 a session. That is $4,500.00 a month. That is $54k a year ..... hmmmmmmmm sounds more expensive than Pathway already... yet my child is still exposed to influence of druggy friends lessens the desire to look at themself.
Note: Antigen edited this message Wednesday, July 2, 2003 at 7:40PM to fix a formatting error. The content remains the same, hopefully as the author intended. In fact, I'm in inch worm mode and haven't even read it yet.
Post by: Carmel on July 02, 2003, 02:41:00 PM
Straight didnt recognize this...there were kids like this who had been there for years...still on first phase. Restrained 5-6 times per day....they didnt need a toilet seat, they used their own fingernails to gouge into their arms. Whether or not these kids are being humiliated in the bathroom, says nothing of how they are being humiliated in the group room!
Im very sorry Anon, but being now an adult with children of my own and a healthy perspective on life...I can look back and I see fully how our parents were shown only certain aspects of what we were subjected to. The very fabric of the rules of the program are in place to prohibit un-controlled communications and in effect give an incomplete picture of what REALLY went on in that environment. The very idea that you can take the same rules, the same methods and the same ideas and eliminate the violence, humiliation and stress....is just not possible....they were all created to employ those things in order to be effective. Without them, the program does not work.....at least according to how they say it is supposed to work. That is saying nothing of how it messes kids up much later in life.
I understand your want and need to help your child, there is no fault in that. But please, PLEASE understand....I am not participating in this because I have a grudge or resentment to my experience in this sort of program. I am doing it because I have completed the spectrum of what this sort of ideaology can do to a human being....and were I not a stronger person, the result could have been much worse than the initial reasons for getting the help.
You want to know how many of my former friends and just people I knew from the program (which is quite a few, we had an outrageous number of people in our group)actually remained "sober" according to the Pathway, Straight, AA or NA model? One. And they are still messed up. Cant have a serious commitment in a realtionship, cant express feelings or emotion without arrogance....
Those are real odds, real statistics. I have seen it. You cant possibly live in an environment like Pathway or Straight for so long, and then come out into the real world and expect to function like that on an ongoing basis without reprocussions. You dont even have to take it from me, the numbers and the facts are out there for all to see.
Post by: Carmel on July 02, 2003, 02:58:00 PM
In Straight, looking at yourself meant focusing on the incidents of your past behaviour in order to "see" the horror of how you acted, what you did and who you did it to. For example, this meant talking about sex in a way that demonized it. We werent allowed to view anything sexual as healthy, it was all bad, druggie behaviour. Normal, real people did not have sex, did not think about sex, parents did not talk to us about sex. We were made to feel that by participating in any form of sexual behaviour, we were contributing to our disease and this is how we were to relate to sex in group.
Now, with that in mind, once we were finished "looking at ourselves" we began to see the reasons BEHIND our behaviour, we began to see what motivated us to act in the way we did. THIS is where the program fell short and lumped it onto "drugs". I had sex with men I didnt know, prolifically, not because I wanted drugs....or even because I was ever high. I did it because I didnt understand the dynamics of human physical interaction and what it meant to be in love...I thought they were all the same because my own father had abused me sexually.
Now, after properly "looking at myself" in the program, which I did whole-heartedly. How could I have expected a group of my peers to acknowledge and give feedback on that? How could I expect anything less than a fully trained psychiatrist to diagnose what I had been interpreting as healthy, and even then it was a long-shot having taken years and years to recognize it myself?
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 03:05:00 PM
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 02, 2003, 03:53:00 PM
Watching clients in the bathroom was the reason why I had to hold my urine for 3 days. Back in the formative years of Pathway, ie STRAIGHT, INC., mind you, quite a bit of highly illegal, immoral, and otherwise plain outright criminal activities took place. Do you think for one moment that the kid you are allegedly illegally hosting in your home will kill themselves? Are you qualified as a psychiatrist to determine that? If you are so concerned about the safety of children with drug problems, behavior problems, etc etc... you will cease and desist your involvement with Pathway immediately. By allowing a program as abusive and as closely modeled to the STRAIGHT, INC. treatment model as it gets, these days, you may in fact be held liable for charges of child abuse among other things. Please understand that it may not be your fault in your mind, but in reality, Pathway is part of a BIG PROBLEM, not the solution!
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 05:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-02 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Give me a break. So you really think the kid would have you be following him around for even more than a few times. I think he would get the picture. I know that these parents did not have a real specific plan. Did you drug test your kid? Were there consequences? Did you take away all his stuff and give it back to him as he earned it? You could have done all these things. Look what they are able to do at Pathway. Involve your family too? How is being with your child humiliating him. Good to see you are so willing to turn yourself and your child over to others to discipline, I guess that's what it is. You realize that Pathway and only Pathway knows what they are doing."
Kids on drugs do not think logically or seldom in their best interest. They crave a drug. Nothing I do will register in comparison. For new users...ummmmm maybe... for those already using for 2 to 5 years... well they obviously had time to stop and did not until forced to by denying access to it.
Pathway is NOT the only way. I never said it was. If that what you said to do would have worked, I would have been delighted to go that route. Pathway works for me and my family. No one forced me to go there. No one will force me to leave the program because they had issues with it. They had the major issues of their own making, I do not.How many drug users are there in Michigan? How many are addicts? How many are at Pathway? Hmmmmmm I do not think Pathway has all the addicts.... if so I never realized how few addicts there are here. No one is held a gun to my head and said I had to be there. I choose to be there. Did my child ask to be there? NO Absolutely NO!!! Sorry,under the age of 18, you don't have a vote in the matter. Like I said before, if you think you are right, then petition the courts to emancipate yourself and get on with life. If it is so bad, the judges are reasonable men here to uphold the law... so ummmmm what's the problem? Maybe finding the answers to that... one has to look a little closer to home for what the problems really are and where they stem from. Scapegoats are convenient methods of avoiding looking at my own issues. I no longer use them as a crutch to deny what I wished not to see. So, what I am saying... you want to be an adult? Then be one. Take the responsibility of supporting yourself and then I have very little to say about your activities. I will still love you, I choose not to support unhealthy living.
Oh... by the way... when I have quit my job to spend all my living moments with my child. Go to a therapist every day costing more than Pathway ... I am paying for all of this by what method now that I am unemployed? I am delighted to see that you are at least thinking of possible alternatives and all the things us parents had to do. Not only did we have to come up with methods to do what needed to be done, the only difference in the adult world is we are forced to choose one that is feasible.
Wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am impressed. This is what learning is all about. Many times our solutions lead us to dead ends, but we still learn from those mistakes to help us make better ones. Hugs :smile:
Post by: Anonymous on July 02, 2003, 05:59:00 PM
I just keep an open mind and based on my experiences, choose, continue to support a program that has worked for me. If it is not working for you then don't waste your money and go find something that does. It is the law of free enterprise. If someone builds a better mousetrap, no one buys the old one. Show me a better mousetrap and I will consider it, but all I hear is how they hate the one that is here. There is nothing offered in its place except.... Leave it alone and do nothing.... sorry ... not an option for me. hugs :smile:
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 02, 2003, 07:06:00 PM
All things considered, child abuse is a very serious issue with courts and the media.
You know the program has been determined to be abusive and you are still supporting, defending, and promoting it. Regardless of other treatment options, continuing to support Pathway Family Center is, in my opinion, not a good idea. I am still in the "advice to you" stage and would be happy to discuss the "big picture" with you. My treatment was over 20 years ago, no need to feel sorry for that now.
:smokin:
Post by: Antigen on July 02, 2003, 08:03:00 PM
"
Quote
On 2003-07-02 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It would have been a whole lot cheaper to have alarmed your house.
Um... just guessing? But I'm pretty sure that was a sarcastic remark you're refering to here. If you're really just looking for a bargain basement solution to parenting, it would be cheaper still to take your kid to a communist bloc country, like Korea, then take their documentation and split.
That would be about the cheapest way to get the same effect as you do by sending them to a large group thought reform program like Pathway. And think of the benefits! No more parent meetings, no nukes to take care of, none of the bullshit. Of course, justifying this kind of cruelty would be your own problem. No Staff and Parents group to keep stoking you and telling you how good and brave and nobel you are for it.
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
-- Quentin Crisp
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Post by: Anonymous on July 03, 2003, 09:01:00 AM
Post by: SurvivorEMSR on July 03, 2003, 11:18:00 AM
This was absolutely humiliating for me. I was forced to label myself a serious addict, and I spent over two years dealing with "issues" that led to my "serious drug problem."
I believe that Pathway did help me to grow up and take responsibility for my actions, but 26 months being treated for addiction? Just to clarify this, I did take that "first drink" a couple of years ago, and believe it or not, I am definitely not an alcoholic. I drink maybe once or twice a month, and sure, I've even been drunk a few times, but is that really that bad? Keep in mind, I am a junior in college with a 3.74 GPA, I have a great relationship with my family, great friends, (some from Pathway, and by the way, it seems as if they're not alcoholics either), a wonderful girlfriend, and overall, a pretty decent life. Now, you may say, "Well, PFC gave you that." I would reply they absolutely did not. I realized in about a month at Pathway that I needed to be more responsible. I was in there for 26, and I was treated for a disease that I don't even have.
My parents spent thousand of dollars on my PFC stay (Someone mentioned 30,000?) Well, my parents spent WELL over that. My parents were told that all of this time and money was necessary so that I wouldn't end up in jail or dead. Admittedly, I can't positivly prove that I wouldn't have ended up in these situations, but the fact remains that PFC supporters can spout off these predictions all day, BUT the happenings that I speak of involving Pathway actually did happen, and they were horrible!
I appreciate supporters writing on this site (sometimes), and I respect their opinions, but what I say about what I went through in Pathway is FACT, not hypothesis, and I belive it was wrong. Many people have said, "Well just get over it." Do you think I haven't tried that? I would love to "Just get over it."
Anyway, thank you for listening, and I'll see you all later. EMSR
[ This Message was edited by: SurvivorEMSR on 2003-07-03 08:23 ]
Post by: Anonymous on July 03, 2003, 11:37:00 AM
Quote
On 2003-07-02 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Give me a break. So you really think the kid would have you be following him around for even more than a few times. I think he would get the picture. I know that these parents did not have a real specific plan. Did you drug test your kid? Were there consequences? Did you take away all his stuff and give it back to him as he earned it? You could have done all these things. Look what they are able to do at Pathway. Involve your family too? How is being with your child humiliating him. Good to see you are so willing to turn yourself and your child over to others to discipline, I guess that's what it is. You realize that Pathway and only Pathway knows what they are doing."
"Did you take away all his stuff and give it back to him as he earned it? You could have done all these things."
Thank you for your thoughts on this. It shows that you are not far away in thought from the Pathway model. I believe it sends a poor message to totally base behavior on possession of "material things" Johnny, if you are bad I will take away your Nintendo. Some children do not own many material things due to their family situation. I am not saying that it would not be one of the weapons in my arsenal, but I seriously doubt it would be enough to persuade someone who has raging hormones,under the influence of drugs and clearly not thinking rationally and in denial. What does each child possess that is a universal that they would sorely miss if it were taken from them.
1 Personal freedom
2 Social freedoms, clicking, looking at others without permission, talking with others without permission,permission to stand up or sit down, permission to move about the room, permission to pour a glass of water, restriction of what room you may allowed to enter,having access to the phone, never a free moment to be by myself, privacy in general.
3 Loss of All simple material possessions, jewelry,make-up, watches, wallets, keys,furniture other than mattresses in phaser room.
And as a side effect from insuring these things,
I as a parent am also restricted in my own personal freedoms. I cannot watch television while you are in the room. I cannot listen to music while you are in the room. I cannot walk around certain areas of the house whily you are in the bathroom or getting changed. I must listen to phone calls not only listening for the content of your conversation but to make sure the other person on the line is who you say they are and that the conversation is not harmful (making you visibly upset). I cannot go anywhere and leave you unsupervised. So WE ALL pay a hefty price for a dysfunctional family.
What do I think will have more influence on my willingness to "earn" the right to do again... play Nintendo or obtain my freedoms back????
Ok, now that I have your attention the only way you can get these things back is to be willing to be honest with your feelings. Have the anger if that is what is there but UNDERSTAND why it is there and deal with underlying causes. Does this work to erase the issues in everyone? NO But it has a better chance of doing it than doing nothing or superficial changes for kids (and parents) needing an elevated level of intervention.
Anger is a valid feeling but anger is a symptom of other problems just as a fever is a symptom of infection or other hidden problems in the body. I can treat my fever and is necessary when excessive, but if I don't address what caused it in the first place then I am still at great risk and the fever remains persistant.
Anyhow, I commend you for at least looking at the issue and thinking about it. Your way would have worked.... earlier in my child's use barring any other psychological issues. Again... that was my fault. Was I too hard or was I too permissive? How much was me and how much should be owned by my child? Going thru Pathway has taught me how to parent in a healthy way and look at life. I have noticed the changes. People around me notice them too. No one has stated they dislike the new me. No one has told my child they dislike them. My child likes who he has become.
Hugs :smile:
Post by: Anonymous on July 03, 2003, 01:39:00 PM
You sound like a bloody clone/drone and you don't even realize it do you?
You poor sap. :???: :???: :???:
Post by: Anonymous on July 03, 2003, 02:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-03 10:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hugs,
You sound like a bloody clone/drone and you don't even realize it do you?
You poor sap.
Well, I am at peace with myself. I am at peace with my family and we are a closer knit family than at anytime in our past. I understand what things cause it not to be so and can fix them before extensive harm is caused. I have a good paying job. I have great working environment.
hmmmmmmmm If this is being a clone/drone.... how can I get more of it??????
How is your life going right now???? I hope as well as mine. I can only wish these gifts find their way into your heart as they have for me.
Hugs :smile:
Post by: Antigen on July 03, 2003, 04:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-03 08:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ok, now that I have your attention the only way you can get these things back is to be willing to be honest with your feelings.
Not true. As stated pretty succinctly by EMSR earlier in this topic, the only way to get back these basic necessities for good mental health is to lie and say you're an addict and then to come to actually believe it.
Quote
Have the anger if that is what is there but UNDERSTAND why it is there and deal with underlying causes."
I understand why it's is there. Anger is a good and wholesome, healthy and normal response to the scenareo you just described. The anger is there because you're a sadistic bitch.
Boundary, n. In political geography, an imaginary line between two nations, separating the imaginary rights of one from the imaginary rights of another.
-- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
Post by: Anonymous on July 04, 2003, 12:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-03 13:35:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2003-07-03 08:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ok, now that I have your attention the only way you can get these things back is to be willing to be honest with your feelings.
Not true. As stated pretty succinctly by EMSR earlier in this topic, the only way to get back these basic necessities for good mental health is to lie and say you're an addict and then to come to actually believe it.Quote
Have the anger if that is what is there but UNDERSTAND why it is there and deal with underlying causes."
I understand why it's is there. Anger is a good and wholesome, healthy and normal response to the scenareo you just described. The anger is there because you're a sadistic bitch.
Again.... this is wonderful. You guys are actually thinking about things. The old me would react to your personal attack on me but who I have become realizes that the issues are yours and you own them for your hateful remarks. Other than that, lets look beyond it to what you say because it is important and has merit.
Is it sad that your personal freedoms were taken away? YES I wholeheartedly agree. Were these freedoms extreemly important to you? WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Appparently so, for which I am eternally greatful. So far your argument ONLY looks at yourself and what harm was done to you personally. So I ask the following and will be general about this but takes in many scenarios. What appies to you take in.... What doesn't let go.... but THINK ABOUT IT SERIOUSLY if you have the stomach to.
How about my personal freedoms? How about the personal freedoms of the rest of my family that FOR YEARS YOU TRAMPLED ON by your drug use? I have the right to go to bed and sleep and not have to be up all night worrying about where you are, what you are doing, are you still alive. I have the right of hanging on to the items and money I EARNED you stole from me to pay for your drug habbit. I have the right to not be threatened with bodily harm while you are strung out on drugs or desparate to leave the house to get another fix. Your siblings and your mom have the right not to be terrorized by you because of your uncontrollable anger. Talk about being able to function normally after Pathway... lets talk about your brother or sister whom still have nightmares because they feel unsafe because you are coming back home again or they are afraid to make friends due to their memories of you or your drug buddies harm to them. I have the right to look my neighbors in the eye and not be ashamed of my child's actions that caused him to break into their homes to steal alcohol and money for their drug use. They have the right not to feel their security was raped by you.
I could go on and on and on and on!!!!!! But again YOU KNOW ALL THIS DON'T YOU? I certainly do and everyone of these postings NEVER MENTION ALL THE HARM THAT HAS OCCURED BY YOUR OWN HANDS!!! Some will say because I was molested as a child... I am regretfully sorry. I believe in the death penalty for such offenses. Whatever anger event caused a change for the worse in your behavior only improves by looking at it. The question is how do I break down that wall and let you see inside and right what wrongs I can? So this is why I brought you to Pathway. Your own behavior was so aggregious that YOU left me no choice. Thank God for Pathway.
P.S. a happy note for you guys.Due to the accreditation process at Pathway, they have recommended that the bathroom doors will now be closed for all clients unless they is a clinical conditions (person is suicidal,tends to self mutilate, or other clinical reasons that make it necessary.) Pathway changes due to sound reasoning and new interpretations of health code. Sorry if it was not the website that caused this but it does not matter. The decision is a reasonable one and will be tried. As rules in the past, most of them were made because they were "EVENT DRIVEN". Something happened and a rule was made to address the issue. Not all rules apply to all conditions and they are willing to look at it. KUDOS again for Pathway. Other programs I cannot comment on... I am not a member of other programs... I can only speak about the one I do know.
Hugs :smile:
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 04, 2003, 02:40:00 PM
Go ahead and keep that "positive attitude" You'll need it in a few years. Cant make sense of beating a dead horse anymore.
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 05, 2003, 11:27:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on July 05, 2003, 12:05:00 PM
Like your younger children, I lived in constant fear of going into the Program from the time I was about 8 and started to realize that that was probably in my future no matter WHAT I did to avoid it. Until I was about 12, it was only a little painful being teacher's pet and Mommy's good little Program protege. Ok, so kids teased me or shunned me, no big deal, they were all just a bunch of druggielosers anyway, or they had druggieattitudes and I was better than that. Hmph!
Of course, puberty hit like a runnaway freight train and it suddenly became very important to have the respect and affection of my peers, especially the male variety. But I couldn't let it show. Nope. According to Program dogma, any kind of sexual tendencies before the age of at least 21 was a sure sign of druggiedome! And I couldn't be angry or moody or anything but euphoric on Jesus and the Program because THAT was, of course, one of the "signs". A need for privacy? Well, I couldn't tell my mother that I didn't want her barging into my room unnanounced. So I just started sleeping in the nude. That worked... for awhile....
With that kind of isolation and scrutiny and no one to turn to, I became very, very depressed. Of course, according to your paranoic world view, a teenaged girl who is depressed must necessarily be a druggie in need of your special, singular brand of treatment.
So I hid it for a good long while. But when it got to be too much, I finally skipped school for the first time in my life, took my $137 out of the credit union, packed a bag and hitchiked to Massachusetts. Of course, running away is also a sure sign of druggiedome and. Once I realized that none of my relatives were going to stand up to my crazy mother's threats of legal action and just let me be a goddamned kid for Christ's sake, I went back home and waited for "the day" like a death-row inmate.
Your "signs of adolescent drug use" are nothing but signs of the normal, though sometimes uncomfortable, phase of life called adolescence. Don't even begin to try and tell me that every kid that goes into Pathway is a properly diagnosed addict or that the Program addresses addiction in any kind of productive way. I know better.
Second, don't hand me your long sad story of nobel martyrdome about your terrible, horrible kids and how mean they have been to you. You're not talking to a scared, stupid teenager here. I have a 19 year old daughter of my own. Here's how that works. Sometime, over a decade ago, for love or money or whatever reason, you decided it was a good idea to lay down and spread `em. That's how you came to have children. The children had no say in the matter and so they owe you not a goddamned thing. If you do a good job and your kids are grateful, well that's nice. If not, don't blame the kid.
And, having laid out your real motivation in all this so well, PLEASE spare me any future bullshit about how it's all for the children, it's not. The Program is all about feeding your martyrdome complex to get you to give up your money, your time, your energy and your very progeny. Always has been.
When a well-packaged web of lies
has been sold gradually to the masses
over generations, the truth will seem
utterly preposterous and its speaker
a raving lunatic.
--Dresden James
Post by: SurvivorEMSR on July 05, 2003, 04:11:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 05, 2003, 09:19:00 PM
An excerpt from a cool song, found to be by me to be most fitting in this topic. There may be others, :rofl:
Life planned out before my birth, nothing could I say. Had no chance to see it all moulded day by day. Looking back I realize, nothing have I done, left to die with only friend alone I clench my gun.
Soldier boy, made of clay, now an empty shell, 21 only son, but he served us well. Bred to kill, not to care, do just as I say. Finished here, greetings death, he's yours to take away.
Back to the front! You will do what I say, when I say, Back to the front! You will die when I say, you must die, Back to the front!
You servant, you coward, you blindman
BACK TO THE FRONT!!!!!
Hug that! :rofl:
Excerpts from Metallica's Disposable Heroes
off of the Master of Puppets CD.
Post by: Anonymous on July 06, 2003, 03:51:00 PM
Click This -->>
Post by: Anonymous on July 06, 2003, 08:17:00 PM
Thank you for posting EMSR. I am sorry that if that is all that was going on in your life, you were subjected to Straight. How they worked or did not work, only you can testify to. I was not there. As crazy as you make mom sound and it may be the truth, I would still like to hear what she had to say about what you call "normal adolescence". I had recomended Pathway to two separate families who were having problems involving drug use at least to investigate if they could help them. Both were told that their child was not involved enough in drug use to be candidates for Pathway. It sounds like there were no safeguards on your program. I am sorry for that. I try to speak about what I know and not what I am unqualified to state with certainty as you may have figured out by my postings so far. My first signs that I needed more help than to just he "he will grow out of this" was a police call to go to the emergency room in the middle of the night for a drug overdose. The doctors were not sure my child was going to live that night. I needed no more proof that my child needed help I was unable to give on my own and I acted in his best interest. This unselfish act has saved my child's life and afforded him a "chance" to sort out life in time. That has happened, or at least to a far greater extent than I had not acted. No one could convince me that what I did was worse than the death of my child. Most of what I read in here about Pathway is anger that 1 they could not afford it which is not my problem or that of Pathways. 2. They failed to complete the program because they wanted to do what they wanted to do when they wanted to do it. To them I say life will have nothing but turmoil as long as it is approached with such uncaring for one's self and others.3. They completed the program and did what they did to get thru it and never use the opportunity given to look at themselves. If they have done this and remained clear of drugs and alcohol then God Bless. If life is still very troubling, I hope for your sake you attend N.A. or A.A. meetings and reach out for the help you can get.
In my earlier postings I went thru the methods I used to select a program. It does not sound to me that I acted with malice. The result is that my child is here, smile, is happy, communicates feelings,solves problems better than before the experience.
So I will end here tonight. I am sad and upset. My child been reaching out to another at N.A. to keep coming to meetings who had been fighting this disease without much help from her parents. She hung herself last night at home. I wonder....... no... it is not my place.
Hugs :???:
Post by: Anonymous on July 06, 2003, 09:30:00 PM
There you go again!!!!! Madame propagandist hard at work. I don't believe you, I think you're making this up. I'm sure that 'suicide' your attempting to pan off here on us ought to be listed in tomorrow's Detroit Free Press. I'll be sure to look.
Here are some other propagandists that got into this act LONG before your mind rapist career got up and running. You may have heard of them, Mel and Betty Sembler, creators of Straight INC. who nowadays they call their creation Drug Free America Foundation (DFAF). They created a "memorial wall" over on their site dedicated to non-existent people who also like your 'child's DA friend" you claim have killed themselves.
http://dfaf.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=frm&s= ... =428601289 (http://dfaf.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=frm&s=854600457&f=428601289)
"HUGS :???:" ..... I don't hug mind rapist liars....
Post by: Antigen on July 06, 2003, 11:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-06 17:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
I had recomended Pathway to two separate families who were having problems involving drug use at least to investigate if they could help them. Both were told that their child was not involved enough in drug use to be candidates for Pathway.
Translation: No money and/or at least one parent was too smart to be suckered in.
Quote
On 2003-07-06 17:17:00, AnonymousWhat a load! I've heard from several PFC graduates with the same story. I've read the "signs of addiction" and called the place with a sad, sad story about a 13yo daughter who yells at me, wears too much makeup and keeps secrets. Guess what? According to whoever took the call (you, maybe?) my darling little ficticious daughter was very, VERY likely experiencing the "early stages" of the "disease of addiction." One think I learned in the Program that really has proven to be true; ya' can't shit a shitter.
It sounds like there were no safeguards on your program. I am sorry for that.
Quote
I needed no more proof that my child needed help I was unable to give on my own and I acted in his best interest. This unselfish act has saved my child's life and afforded him a "chance" to sort out life in time. That has happened, or at least to a far greater extent than I had not acted.
Oh, puh-leeez! spare me the self agrandizement. Do you have any evidence, aside from your very subjective anecdotes to support your stayed belief that 1) your son would not have learned from his mistakes and been just fine, just like 99% of other high school kids who puke and pass out at some point or that 2) PFC's methods do more good than harm?
If PFC is comepletely different from what it was before the name change, then I guess you're sophisticated enough to get with the 20th century and draw on long term outcome studies, right? You look at a large group of kids with similar demographic backgrounds and issues. You select similar numbers of these study subjects from those who went through different programs and a control group who went through no program. And then you compare, 6 months, a year, 5 years down the road, how things turned out for them.
Is that something like how you base your claim that PFC is the greatest thing since sliced bread? Or do you do just like they did in the old days; blame the 90% failure rating on primal flaws in those individuals? Or, better yet! Start a rumor going around that the kid who's complaing is pushing crack on everyone who talks to them. Then get them all in the intake room and piss test them. At the least, they'll all be afraid to talk to him and so they and their parents won't hear any criticizm of the Program. And maybe, if you're lucky, you can get one or more of them to break under pressure, implicate the kid and thereby discredit another critic. Then treat yourself to a nice boston cream pie or something for a job well done, right?
Do tell?
Quote
No one could convince me that what I did was worse than the death of my child.
The question is, how did you come to regard your son as dead? Lady, you have been scammed on a grand scale.
Quote
Most of what I read in here about Pathway is anger that 1 they could not afford it which is not my problem or that of Pathways.
I haven't read one post about anyone complaining they couldn't afford it. People who don't have anything worth stealing generally don't make good marks to begin with. I've seen a lot of people posting that it wasn't worth the money. You sound like one of those guys who calls a girl a lezbo if she turns him down. :rofl:
Quote
2. They failed to complete the program because they wanted to do what they wanted to do when they wanted to do it.
Oh wise and omnicient hugs! Please, honor us with the secret of your all-knowing-ness! How in the hell do you prepose to know why anyone has done anything they have done? It's not asif you're allowed to talk with people who leave your cult and find out what they were thinking.
Quote
To them I say life will have nothing but turmoil as long as it is approached with such uncaring for one's self and others.
Your reality check has just bounced. One of these poor souls for whom you pretend to feel such empathy and compassion is too busy pulling a 3.70 in college to triffle with the likes of you. Most people who get their families the hell out of these mad houses before too long get themselves back together pretty well. And, in the interest of historic perspective, that's always been the case.
Fred Collins, one of the first to successfully sue your cult for a substantial sum, used it to pay for tuition to finish his Doctorate at mathamatics at Stanford. A good many posters to these forums could buy and sell your whole block without thinking about it, and most of those did it on their own, without even average family support, because their programmed parents were not about to become "enablers" to bad, bad, druggie children who weren't following their programs.
Quote
3. They completed the program and did what they did to get thru it and never use the opportunity given to look at themselves. If they have done this and remained clear of drugs and alcohol then God Bless. If life is still very troubling, I hope for your sake you attend N.A. or A.A. meetings and reach out for the help you can get.
In other words, the Program never fails, it's perfect like God. Is that it? But it's not a cult, no!!! :rofl:
Quote
In my earlier postings I went thru the methods I used to select a program. It does not sound to me that I acted with malice.
No, just rank stupidity.
Quote
The result is that my child is here, smile, is happy, communicates feelings,solves problems better than before the experience.
STILL no evidence to suggest that he wouldn't have been here, happy and communicating. But here's the kicker. He could do all of those things right now, every day, with admirable competence, grace and poise, but if he steps to you one day and say "Mom, there are some things about the program that are just messed up" Oh My God!!!! No!!!! he'll be a loser, in your eyes. And God forbid he ever have a drink of champaign to ring in the new year! He could corner the software market, move in next to Bill Gates, have a loving family and kids, but if he drinks or smokes a join, he loses your affection and acceptance. How can you people NOT see how utterly fucked up that is?
Quote
So I will end here tonight. I am sad and upset. My child been reaching out to another at N.A. to keep coming to meetings who had been fighting this disease without much help from her parents. She hung herself last night at home. I wonder....... no... it is not my place.
Hugs :???: "
Exactly. An awful lot of Program people seem to do that. Funny, I went to school with hundreds of other kids, some with serious family problems, most did drugs at some point. And yet, not a single one has offed themselves in the over 20 years since. I wish I could say that about the people I saw go through the Program.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Douglas Adams, _Last Chance to See_
Post by: Anonymous on July 07, 2003, 07:48:00 AM
http://www.freep.com/news/mich/drown7_20030707.htm (http://www.freep.com/news/mich/drown7_20030707.htm)
Didn't a thing about it on channel 7 WXYZ or WWJ/WJR radio. Nope......nada........
'Young woman hangs herself', if it were true, hell yeah it would of made news around these parts.......
OK, that idea fell apart on you, so what's next on your agenda "HUGS"????
Post by: Anonymous on July 07, 2003, 11:14:00 AM
Kathryn L. Kovala
Kathryn Louise Kovala, 16, of Brighton died June 21 at the University of Michigan. She was born Dec. 24, 1986, in Lincoln Park to Thomas E. and Amy C. (King) Kovala.
Ms. Kovala was a student at Brighton High School and a member of AA and NA.
She is survived by her mother, Amy King of Brighton; father, Daniel Flavin of Brighton; brothers, Vincent Kovala at home and Jesse Kovala of New Boston; sisters, Jacqueline Kovala and Roxie Flavin, both at home; maternal grandparents, Ellis and Clydene King of Oscoda; paternal grandparents, Michael and Clarice Kovala of Madison Heights; and several aunts and uncles.
Services will be held at 10 a.m. Wednesday, June 25, at the Episcopal Church of the Incarnation of Ann Arbor. The Rev. Joseph Summers and the Rev. Susan King will officiate. Interment will be in Holy Sepulchre.
Visitation hours are 2-8 p.m. Tuesday, June 24, at Herrmann Funeral Home, (810) 229-2905. A prayer service will be held at 8 p.m.
Since this is a public obituary notice, I have no problems in sharing it with you yet it still brings sadness to me. This should be verifyable for those who wish to find anything they can to discredit what I have to say. That is truely their issue. I have shared with you things to think about. Hopefully you do. If not,.... Oh well, I tried. I feel I have met my need to post in here and nothing else need be said. Good luck in your struggles.
Hugs :???:
Post by: Anonymous on July 07, 2003, 11:23:00 AM
Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya! :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on July 07, 2003, 12:05:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 07, 2003, 07:51:00 PM
it is a symptom of severe depression
that family has problems, i'll bet
ones you'll never know
exploiting her death to prove some non-existant
point is very tacky
you people love to believe it's wasn't in some
way your own faults as parents don't you?
blame it on the children
and their druggie behavior
if you were so concerned
you would have posted that obit
weeks ago
please go away now
you make me want to ::puke::
Post by: Anonymous on July 07, 2003, 09:59:00 PM
" I am sorry. I misunderstood the day of the event but my sadness hass not lessened. Apparently it was learned this last Saturday. The event occured the week before. Here are the details...."
"Since this is a public obituary notice, I have no problems in sharing it with you yet it still brings sadness to me. This should be verifyable for those who wish to find anything they can to discredit what I have to say. That is truely their issue. I have shared with you things to think about. Hopefully you do. If not,.... Oh well, I tried. I feel I have met my need to post in here and nothing else need be said. Good luck in your struggles.
Hugs "
*****************************
OK, I will give you that. Maybe the Detroit Free Press didn't cover it, perhaps there are a lot more suicides not covered around here locally, much less nationally. Suicide no doubt is a sad fact that regretfully does happen to some people. Yes, they get wrapped in situations that they tragically think they need to end their lives over, and only THEY know what is really ticking inside them. NOT you or I. Like Pathway, what Straight INC used to do with people like that is tell them they were "fucked up" and "worthless" and that their "families wanted nothing to do with them". Straight INC would cut and carve into them sooo damned much emotionally that they had NOTHING to fall back on when they finally did leave the "program". Everybody I know on these boards knows of at least one suicide victim after getting out of Straight. I myself know of 3.
I didn't mean to beat up on you, but I can't stand people like you coming on here and throwing a bunch of Straight INC-like program 'druggie' "disease" crap on us. I mean was it necessary for us all to know the gruesome details of how she committed suicide? Not unless of course there is some propaganda you need to spread out like manure. At any rate, can you even prove it was drugs, oh how you would like to, but that would be ridiculous and you know it. She had underlying issues to begin with. I agree with you if you say her parents weren't there for her, but why do people like you think if she could get help in a Straight INC-like place like Pathway Family Center ???? I could just see you guys getting a hold of her over there - taking an already depressed young woman and ripping her up yet still more. OH yeah, I can see it all right now, this young woman on first phase, ''so-n-so, you are so fucked up!!!, you don't deserve to see your parents, you did twisted sexual things and you're selfish-selfish-selfish, you'll have to "earn" the "privilege" to talk to them.
Yeah HUGS, I really think your PFC methods could of saved her from taking her life ~ yeah-right, dream on!!!!!!
You know, it's only a matter of time before suicide statistics start coming out people who killed themselves who were once in Pathway. I suppose you bozos over there will once again blame it on the victim and not YOUR mind rapist methods.....
PS...I still don't hug mind rapists..... :wink:
Post by: butternationalist on July 10, 2003, 12:42:00 PM
1 Personal freedom
2 Social freedoms, clicking, looking at others without permission, talking with others without permission,permission to stand up or sit down, permission to move about the room, permission to pour a glass of water, restriction of what room you may allowed to enter,having access to the phone, never a free moment to be by myself, privacy in general.
3 Loss of All simple material possessions, jewelry,make-up, watches, wallets, keys,furniture other than mattresses in phaser room.
And as a side effect from insuring these things,
I as a parent am also restricted in my own personal freedoms. I cannot watch television while you are in the room. I cannot listen to music while you are in the room. I cannot walk around certain areas of the house whily you are in the bathroom or getting changed. I must listen to phone calls not only listening for the content of your conversation but to make sure the other person on the line is who you say they are and that the conversation is not harmful (making you visibly upset). I cannot go anywhere and leave you unsupervised. So WE ALL pay a hefty price for a dysfunctional family.
<
Hmmmmm, I dont disagree that you had to give up these thngs while in pathway. But ifI may allow me this question. If your son/daughter was not a "drug addict" would you have done all of these things?? I believe the correct answer hell no. you were just as brainwashed as some of the others. you were lied to and told all of these horrible things would happen should you choose not to follow the rules. Your child would be scarred because you dont support them!?!?!
no offense maam but, i consistently hear the same retorical bullshit from you and it should stop. peace----SMITH
Post by: Antigen on July 10, 2003, 08:33:00 PM
Consistently, no mater who's doing the research or how they go about it, they have come up with virtually the same information; around half of high school kids do drugs, and somewhat more than half of college kids.
And yet, strangely, we don't see a whole lot of suicides and suicide attempts among half the young adult population. Only among those unfortunate enought to get sucked into a high demand cult like yours.
Oh, btw, one caveat. Remember, folks, how program people define the term 'suicide'. When I hitchhiked accross the country to get away from the crazy bastards, that was defined as a suicide attempt. I had some money, I knew where the bus station was. However, I also knew the Program strategy of putting up posters and making inqueries at every conventional means of escape, so I knew better than to take the bus.
Oh, and by the other way, are ya'll watching what just happened in New Jersey? Check it out:
http://thestraights.com/articles/lulu.htm (http://thestraights.com/articles/lulu.htm)
If we can get these sadistic loonies before an impartial judge and jury and just let them be themselves, it's all over. Those of you who are considering suing, I highly recomend that you get in touch with Phil Elberg and see if he can give you some good advice and recomendations.
Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Post by: Anonymous on July 16, 2003, 09:06:00 AM
1.That being made to sleep, live in a house with people you don't like, and call them mom and dad will make you repress the horrible rage that you held towards your parents. But, it's still there.
2. If one parent sees that the program is brainwashing and unreal, they are to be disrespected, resented, and out of their life.
3. That a therapist who hasn't dealt with their own shit will influence the childs' rage against a parent who questions the program.
4. That cruel remarks are "good confronting behavior".
5. That they are only "one drink" or "one drug" away from relapse.
6. That drug addiction is a life long disease and they will never be cured. (which isn't true)
7. That they can easily ignore others feelings or conversation. That they don't want others to FEEL for them or tell them what they are feeling. Unconsciously we do feel hostility and anger from others but our child will deny she feels that way as she's screaming at you to get out of her face.
8. To learn that it really WAS her family that screwed her up and they will pay forever.
Post by: Anonymous on July 16, 2003, 09:23:00 AM
9. That the program is changed and WHY weren't they allowed to go to the bathroom in private on first level, allowed to wear shoes, why were they armed?
10. That if a host parent is not being kind to them and they say anything about it to a parent who COULD take them home for a night, they suddenly turn on that parent, and tells everyone that all that parent is trying to do is to screw up their chances at graduating.
11. That if a host parent is ill during a weekend they are supposed to host 4 teenagers and does not host, that that parent is banned from the program by the therapist.
Post by: Anonymous on July 16, 2003, 09:34:00 AM
In other words we have the same child, but drug free now, and now she believes that it is only Pathway that can help her. It is very, very sad for the family, but of course Pathway looks at it as it is our fault too. Maybe someday she won't have the hard, cold eyes she has now.
Post by: Anonymous on July 16, 2003, 05:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-16 06:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So continued:
In other words we have the same child, but drug free now, and now she believes that it is only Pathway that can help her."
I do not know if you have graduated the program or not but that is not the message I see the graduates showing me. What I see is that Pathway has shown them to rely on themselves with support from N.A. or A.A. I agree that the earlier program did not achieve this goal in therapy to the level I would have prefered. However, I see much more effort to make this happen in the last year. Pathway is there obviously for aftercare which is to help in issues of being on their own again and temptations, healthy choices. But even at that stage of the program, it is still up to the individual to make good choices. All they can do is provide guidance. Use what you have learned and the support of others to have a good life.
If this can be done totally on your own, I commend you for your will to stay clean. If you cannot, then seek support of your clean friends, N.A.,A.A. Church groups, where ever you can find it. I guess I just do not have a problem with intensive support initially. As maturity sets in, obviously you must be the judge of what works.
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 16, 2003, 07:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 17, 2003, 08:55:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 17, 2003, 10:43:00 AM
:flame:
Post by: Anonymous on July 17, 2003, 10:45:00 AM
:flame:
So you are saying that she doesn't have the right to be pissed off at you...she isn't entitled to emotions she has that don't necessarily agree with YOURS? I see right through your post...it boils down to that you're just a control freak. You can't MAKE a person change their attitude toward you, and I don't give a shit how many years PFC rapes her mind, all that is going to do is mess her up emotionally for life.
I had attitude problems with my parents just like your daughter before I went in Straight. The mind rape mill made it all "my fault", they made the parents like you the "victims". After a good brainwashing, I "graduated" Straight and carried that belief around with me for about 20 years and it almost killed me to make a long story short. My 20 year long mind set allowed my parents and all those around me the opportunity to be the scapegoat for their problems, a chance to piss on me any time they wanted. That's what your mind rape mill is doing to you daughter whether you choose to deal with this reality today or not.
People like you that have these overbearing egos are so damned selfish, I can't even put it in words. You won't even give the kids a chance to think for themselves, make mistakes and learn from them, hell, breath for that matter. You think that you can just put them away somewhere and somebody else will "fix" them. WHAT's WRONG WITH YOU?... HOW DARE you just throw her away to a bunch of strangers???? Well I honestly hope some day she gets wise and sues the shit out of you. You'd have it coming.
Post by: Anonymous on July 17, 2003, 06:06:00 PM
I am sad to think that a common belief by parents that their child was the drug abuser that they don't have to look at their own issues. Yes the child has a drug problem, partially because they do not know how to stop, but mostly because they do not know how to handle problems in life. Most drug abuse starts out as avoidance. If you child does not have much to do with you, perhaps there is a reason much closer to home. How convenient to blame Pathway. My money is on the child,the parents beacuase the child is dropped back into a home without help to deal with an unchanged family dysfunction. Would I expect my child to be happy to be in that situation? Hell No.
Post by: Antigen on July 17, 2003, 07:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-17 15:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"From what I have seen at Pathway, they teach EVERYONE to look at themselves. I have never heard anyone say that it is ALL my child's fault. To the contrary, I have found that each of my family members played a role in events. I was taught to have humulity and look at my own stuff as is each member of the family. Why is it so difficult to do that? Pride, denial, maybe a bit of both."
Or, another nifty term that they worked into the lexicon back in the early `80's; "cognitive dissonance". Here's how people in the more commonly accepted reality define that term:
"Two cognitions are said to be dissonant if one cognition follows from the opposite of another. What happens to people when they discover dissonant cognitions? The answer to this question forms the basic postulate of Festinger¹s theory. A person who has dissonant or discrepant cognitions is said to be in a state of psychological dissonance, which is experienced as unpleasant psychological tension."
In simpler terms, it's the feeling you get when things just don't add up. That happens a LOT in a cult environment. For example, what's the first and most important rule? It's the very bedrock of the entire philosophy. So then, how does it fit that the same philosophy requires that you, as a parent, lie to your kid or trick them any way you can or lie to others in order to get them into the program?
It doesn't. If a prospective parent is concerned about betraying the trust of their child, there's a canned response about how they'll die without treatment, yadda, yadda. But what you're telling them to do directly contradics what you say the program is all about.
Similarly, the Program definitions of good parent and bad parent are quite different from how the rest of the world defines those terms. In fact, they're quite opposite.
| Good Parents | |
|---|---|
| Real World | Program |
| Give unconditional love | Withholds contact and affection to coerce desired behavior |
| Never betrays a trust | Will turn kid in to staff without hesitation |
| Will go through hell and high water to protect kid from harm | Will blithely accept any lame-assed explanation when the kid they're not allowed to talk to appears accross the room with obvious bruises and cuts |
| Teaches kids to be cautious of strangers | Trusts Program staff and clients implicitly, no matter what. |
| Provides that home, where no matter what they have to take you in | Will change the locks and call the police if the kid steps out of line and can't be forced back onto front row. |
I could go on.
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism--how passionately I hate them!
--Albert Einstein
Post by: Carmel on July 17, 2003, 09:18:00 PM
I remember people screaming that term in my face during confrontational raps. "YOU NEED TO TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT YOURSELF"....as if I had anything else to look at. On second thought, I had lots to look at....like six other newcomers each and every night....some suicidal, most not compliant, and all completely in control of whether or not someone was going to scream "YOU NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT YOURSELF" at me the next day (after 4-5 hours of sleep).
You see...I was ripped up one side and down the other if I forgot one single step in our routine. Maybe I was unaware of a girl in the shower for a few moments, maybe I missed giving permission for another one to ask to pick something up. All carefully watched and dutifully reported by parents and other resentful kids who had nothing better to do.
Please explain to me how running on empty and forgetting to watch someone wipe their ass is a serious reason to need A GOOD LOOK AT MYSELF?
Ill tell you what....it doesnt matter what kind of attitude your kid has....they cant win in there. I busted my ass each and every day of my program from the first to the last when I decided I was being lied to and abused and ran. I followed the rules and did my best to take a GOOD LOOK AT MYSELF each and every day.....didnt matter. It was never enough, and it almost drove me insane.
Your kid is looking at themselves so hard they are going blind with the effort.
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2003, 11:35:00 AM
Quote
On 2003-07-17 16:16:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2003-07-17 15:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
Similarly, the Program definitions of good parent and bad parent are quite different from how the rest of the world defines those terms. In fact, they're quite opposite.
Real World Parents Dysfunctional Parents Program Give unconditional love but still hold kids accountable for their actions. Love their kids to death and pretend there is nothing wrong and actually aid in maintaining the addiction/dysfunction
Must make decisions in the long term interest of the whole family and the child. Never speak up and choose to let children's actions destroy the rest of the family's well being Will allow a child to learn from consequences to eventually be in control of all aspects their own life. Will go through hell and high water to protect kid from harm so the child never has to face situations that call for common sense... the kid grows up unable to handle their own life. Teaches kids to make healthy decisions. Allows druggy friends and strangers selling drugs to teach their kids about life and how to destroy it. Expect their children to follow simple rules of the home for sanity of the whole family Allow their child to destroy the house,intimitade parent & siblings,make the home an unpleasant place to reside for everyone and pretend nothing is wrong with the child because admitting that might cause them to look at themselves.
I could go on.Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism--how passionately I hate them!"
--Albert Einstein
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2003, 11:41:00 AM
Quote
On 2003-07-18 08:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2003-07-17 16:16:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2003-07-17 15:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
Similarly, the Program definitions of good parent and bad parent are quite different from how the rest of the world defines those terms. In fact, they're quite opposite.
Parents Real World Dysfunctional Give unconditional love but still hold kids accountable for their actions. Love their kids to death and pretend there is nothing wrong and actually aid in maintaining the addiction/dysfunction
Must make decisions in the long term interest of the whole family and the child. Never speak up and choose to let children's actions destroy the rest of the family's well being Will allow a child to learn from consequences to eventually be in control of all aspects their own life. Will go through hell and high water to protect kid from harm so the child never has to face situations that call for common sense... the kid grows up unable to handle their own life. Teaches kids to make healthy decisions. Allows druggy friends and strangers selling drugs to teach their kids about life and how to destroy it. Expect their children to follow simple rules of the home for sanity of the whole family Allow their child to destroy the house,intimitade parent & siblings,make the home an unpleasant place to reside for everyone and pretend nothing is wrong with the child because admitting that might cause them to look at themselves.
I could go on.Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism--how passionately I hate them!"
--Albert Einstein
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2003, 04:14:00 PM
Ill tell you what....it doesnt matter what kind of attitude your kid has....they cant win in there. I busted my ass each and every day of my program from the first to the last when I decided I was being lied to and abused and ran. I followed the rules and did my best to take a GOOD LOOK AT MYSELF each and every day.....didnt matter. It was never enough, and it almost drove me insane."
Maybe the GOOD LOOK AT YOURSELF was wasted looking real hard at what you perceived to be wrongs commited against you and a small amount if even that on HOW YOU REACTED to diffucult situations in life. Life is NOT fair and by far, is more of how I handle adverse situations than how I am spared the existance of them. Reality is most have to face difficult times in their life. How wrong is it to learn tools to cope with those difficulties rather than as you put it... "I decided I was being lied to and abused and ran". Perhaps what you say makes sense. Only the parents should have packed up,sold the house and ran. Based on that reasoning, I had every right to abandon my situation. Please explain to me how I run away from life? Oh, I forgot, we always have drugs and alcohol for that.
Post by: Carmel on July 18, 2003, 04:59:00 PM
I am fairly certain that I am not, do not, have not, and wish not to be spared from difficult situations in my life. I wouldnt change any of them....maybe not even the death of my little girl. EVERYTHING in life is a lesson...an experience...many not fair, as you say, but for a reason nonetheless. I pity people who havent had tragedy or sorrow....they seem to be missing something as people.
I know what was done to me in Straight was wrong. Would I change it? No. Because although I did not learn the "tools" for success that Straight would like to claim the taught me....I learned much more. However, the same lessons arent for everyone, as Straight and the DFAF mission statement would like to believe. Many children are lashing out at sexual abuse, verbal and physical abuse, neglect...these are not forms of drug abuse. When you go into these programs, EVERYONE is a drug addict, or destined to be one. That is simply NOT TRUE. How can you justify that?
The idea of keeping kids off drugs is valid, and valiant. But the "Pathway" that this ideal has taken in our society in the form of these programs is not just, its not honest, and its not working. Look at all of us here, unified in our ideas about what was done to us. Where are the Straight Supposrt websites? Where are the graduates who are all happy and healthy and drug free converging to show their support for these places that "saved their life?" I dont have to prove that the cons outweigh the pros here...the evidence is real in the form of 99% of the contributors to this site.
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2003, 11:55:00 PM
Post by: Carmel on July 19, 2003, 10:23:00 AM
Anyway.....my basis is as I stated earlier....Pathway is a decendent of Straight, they use the same mode of operation...its the same method. I dont care what name you slap on the front door of the place....there just isnt any way of getting around the abusive, degrading treatment you receive under that sort of method. Its what supposedly makes the program WORK. It cant be removed or there would be no program. There is no kinder gentler Program, its not designed that way.
As far as wasting time on a message board...I can only hope that my wasted time here makes a parent think twice about whether or not they want their kid watching people get their bones broken, their noses bloodied, kids carving deep gouges into themselves, screaming, violence, betrayal, degredation, humiliation....I can go on. Im sorry, but subjecting them to that cant be the only way to get them off drugs....assuming they are even addicts to begin with.
Whats scary is that the parents didnt know about all of that then, they dont know now either....its hidden from them. If you have a kid on first phase for six months who cant even make eye contact with you....how are you going to know if they are being beaten and abused? You think staff is going to tell a parent that 5 kids have to sit on top of their child for hours ata time in order to get them to sit up straight and put their hands on their knees? Hell no they arent. IT IS THE NATURE OF THE PROGRAM to operate in this manner, its what they do and have always done in order to keep the mill churning.
One of my favorite quotes from this site:
A shit sandwich is still a shit sandwich, and no pickle on the side is ever going to change that.
Post by: Anonymous on July 19, 2003, 04:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-18 20:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not willing to bet that there are many Straight Supporters out there if all you say about Straight is true. But, I know that there are many Pathway supporters. My guess would be that the many graduates of Pathway (I wouldn't know about Straight) who are healthy and clean are spending their time enjoying the sober life they have made for themselves, and are not wasting their time on a website talking about the time they spent in a treatment center. I know I would be in the community 12th stepping and taking in every moment that I have to live today, free of drugs and alochol."
OK, so how many Pathway supporters other than Mel and Betty Sembler are there? 100? 200? 50? How long is your dime therapy list? Do you have one? What about the state authorities? Why would Pathway have the urge all of a sudden to change so much of their surface if it had not been for people who know better?
You know, I said it before and I'll keep saying it. The only way to change Pathway treatment is to end it once and for all. STRAIGHT, INC's legacy lives on as long as their are newcomers, nursery rhyme songs, watching bathrooms, hosting strangers in strangers houses, naming these imaginary diseases like "oppositional defiance disorder" :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2003, 02:32:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2003, 12:09:00 PM
A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present:
often loses temper
often argues with adults
often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules
often deliberately annoys people
often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
is often angry and resentful
is often spiteful or vindictive
Note: Consider a criterion met only if the behavior occurs more frequently than is typically observed in individuals of comparable age and developmental level.
The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
The behaviors do not occur exclusively during the course of a Psychotic or Mood Disorder.
Criteria are not met for Conduct Disorder, and, if the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.
Pathway parents must have something along the lines of HUTAS
Head Up Their Ass Syndrome
:silly:
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2003, 12:10:00 PM
Last time I checked, medical journals and manuals, statistics and so on, were NOT divine law.
All that this means is that until we can learn to be perfect in every way, behaviour, physical appearance etc., (this all being impossible not only in theory, but by way of the huge differences in each expert's MANUAL on what constitutes perfection) then we are gonna be slapped with some kind of disorder.
Labels like these are nothing but a big fat buffer against taking responsibility. Oh my kids got a DISORDER, so its no my fault then!
Post by: Antigen on July 20, 2003, 09:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-18 20:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not willing to bet that there are many Straight Supporters out there if all you say about Straight is true. But, I know that there are many Pathway supporters.
Really? How much? I'll take that bet. To settle it, talk to Leigh Anne Bright, who volunteered to cold call program families and invite them to the Conference in Bathesda two years ago.
Hell, better yet, here's some of the corespondence from that time.
http://trebach.org/letters/chavez/ (http://trebach.org/letters/chavez/)
http://trebach.org/letters/cavey/ (http://trebach.org/letters/cavey/)
Here's another pretty bad case of brainwashing. Laura Murphy just burried her son. He shot himself in the forehead when, after 3 long goddamned years (ages 14 - 17) she kicked him out of the house for minor house rules infractions.
Of course, Laura Murphy is what the program would call a good, strong parent. She's convinced that the Program did it's thing and keep the kid alive for a few years.
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp1.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp1.shtml)
Like I say, the Program is very effective. Not the least bit therapeutic. But VERY effective.
Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.
Post by: Anonymous on July 21, 2003, 12:00:00 AM
Also, weren't you one of the people posting that we should not use people's names on this website? You used two people's full names in your last post. Maybe you had their permission, but if not, that is pretty rude and a breach of confidentiality. I know I would not appreciate that.
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 21, 2003, 09:16:00 AM
Post by: nakid2003 on July 21, 2003, 03:53:00 PM
Ok!!! you got me...i graduated that place, am still clean or sober or whatever you want to call it, going to meetings, whatever you consider 12th stepping chances are im doing it (my opinion is you dont know what the fuck 12th stepping is in the first place from the way you used the terminology of it), oohhhh and i have a sponser, i sponsor people too and shit what else...i guess i am an overall success. YET...... i still manage to get on this site and "waste" my time by sharing my anger at pathway for the way the treated me. listen,whoever you are, we all have our feelings on what we went through dont try to tell us that we dont have valid feelings and we are "wasting" our time.
sincerely,
the indykid chris
Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
Post by: Antigen on July 21, 2003, 06:49:00 PM
RFornit: Woooo Hoooo! Go, nakid2003!!
ramprato: yep! :smile:
The government is much more interested in preserving the purity of its ideology than it is in allowing patients to get effective medicine.
-- Ethan B. Russo, neurologist at Western Montana Clinic
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2003, 11:37:00 PM
I believe your feelings are valid for you to have. The feelings belong to you and that fact alone make them so. Just as my feelings are valid to me. Can you list some of the programs you would have actively participated in and believe would have worked for you and paused the insanity in your own home? Can you list some of the programs that you believe would have had the full participation of your parents to work on their issues?I ask this question of others and all I get is another smokescreen that never gives a reasonable reply.... they just vent about something else to try to take away the focus.Also, thank you for at least admitting that drugs or alcohol was a problem for you. When I read Carmel's comments, I come away with the idea that only a couple of people who ever went to Pathway had a problem. The majority were conjured up.This may have been true for her stay with Straight but I have no clue how she knows what goes on at Pathway. It surely doesn't jive with anyone I know in the program there. Could you comment without giving details how many kids were in Pathway who you truely believe did not have a problem with problem solving which involved drugs or alcohol as an escape? Nice to see honesty in what you have to say. It is refreshing. For me it is hard to look at issues that may be valid when so much fake issues are raised as a smoke screen because someone wants a scapegoat for why they are not happy in life.
Post by: Carmel on July 23, 2003, 01:08:00 AM
Pathway is a direct decendent of Straight Detroit. Read the logistical information at Wes Fager's site. I dont have to be at Pathway to know and understand the methods used there. Just like i did not have to be at Straight Atlanta, or KIDS of Southern California, or The Seed, to know and understand the methods used there. For years I new zilch about any of the other programs, until I came here....and did not just read the posted information, but listened to the people speak. It has been the same everywhere.
By the same token, to answer your question about acceptable treatment programs, I am sure there are many. However, I do not feel that any that use the methods that Straight/Pathway/KIDs use and used are acceptable. Thats not a smokescreen, thats what I think based on my firsthand experience and my subsequent maturity.
Also, you suggest to nakid that he/she at least admitted to having a problem....that mentality comes directly from the Straight way, we are all druggie losers, there are just those that wont admit it.
I dont have a problem, if I did, how would I be able to drink occasionaly and still have a job, a family, a home and a life that I am very decidely HAPPY with (contrary to the smokescreeners) year after year and not end up dead or in jail? According to the program, the same one that Pathway follows, I should be totally useless right now. Sobriety is a lifelong goal is it not, and I do not strive for it......so after being in the Program and admitting that I was a raging addict and alcoholic, how is it that this can be?
Also, you refer to their "honesty" (and I am not knocking it ) as refreshing because they attempt to have an open mind to the possibilities. But be aware that just because I do not advocate even giving this methodology a chance any longer (they have had 20 some odd years to prove that it works and this board and Wes's site are the biggest press they have to date) does NOT mean that I am dishonest about what I say here, I am an adult now and with children of my own, am more concerned about the possibility of this sort of thing happenening to kids even today. The fact is, YOU dont know whats going on in there. You dont know what someone is whispering in your childs ear at night that they cant tell you about, or how it feels to be told to sing as loud as you can to drown out the screams of someone being hurled to the floor. I know what that feels like, I was there, and those "honest" people in there used the exact same program as your Pathway does.
I dont have to be at Pathway to understand the thinking behind whats happening there, your very posts are a testament to the similarities. The phrases and words that you use, the mode of speech, the ideas that you present positively are saturated with what I was subjected to 24 hours a day for 9 months. I WAS there and I wouldnt be able to forget the things I heard every single day while I lived in fear. The very structure of your wording sounds like my oldcomer going over my MI.
My branch of Straight was under serious investigation before I left. There were a whole barrage of "changes" that took effect. Changes I am sure delighted the parents and made the investigators smile in triumph.....but I swear to you, when the going got too rough, those changes flew out the window, and they flew fast. There wasnt any stopping it when the investigators were gone and you were alone with 4-5 other kids ready to give you payback for instigating changes.
The idea that no one at Pathway matches what I descibe as someone without a drug problem was the same when I was in Straight. Everyone had a problem, there would be trouble and a loss of income for the corporation if everyone didnt have a problem. I went into Straight a minor experimenter and became a full blown crack and PCP addict in no time flat, it was the only way to be "bad" enough to "get better". You think that any of the parents were led to think that maybe their kid didnt have a drug problem? No way. I am telling you...its not about what you are seeing Anon...its about what you dont see, and what the rules of the program prevent you from seeing. It IS there, I promise. I dont want ANYONES kid to be on drugs, or to be in danger, not yours not mine...not anyones. But I am telling you with very much honesty, that this method is not the way. Its a temporary fix.
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 23, 2003, 02:13:00 AM
Quote
On 2003-07-22 20:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nakid,
I believe your feelings are valid for you to have. The feelings belong to you and that fact alone make them so. Just as my feelings are valid to me. Can you list some of the programs you would have actively participated in and believe would have worked for you and paused the insanity in your own home? Can you list some of the programs that you believe would have had the full participation of your parents to work on their issues?I ask this question of others and all I get is another smokescreen that never gives a reasonable reply.... they just vent about something else to try to take away the focus.Also, thank you for at least admitting that drugs or alcohol was a problem for you. When I read Carmel's comments, I come away with the idea that only a couple of people who ever went to Pathway had a problem. The majority were conjured up.This may have been true for her stay with Straight but I have no clue how she knows what goes on at Pathway. It surely doesn't jive with anyone I know in the program there. Could you comment without giving details how many kids were in Pathway who you truely believe did not have a problem with problem solving which involved drugs or alcohol as an escape? Nice to see honesty in what you have to say. It is refreshing. For me it is hard to look at issues that may be valid when so much fake issues are raised as a smoke screen because someone wants a scapegoat for why they are not happy in life."
Pathway is the smokescreen and you have no clue why. When you have 20 years of experience living with ramifications of the treatment modality used on you at Pathway, then you will have more wisdom with which to make an educated statement.
The scapegoats are the kids that are there now. Wake up and smell the coffee there, anonymous.
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2003, 11:19:00 AM
Anon,
Why do you need a place to work on your "issues" anyway? You have only had your entire PARENTHOOD to address your stuff and still apparently refuse to take on responsibility for your own shortcomings, otherwise you never would of needed a Straight-like place to stick your kid in. You I bet were only TOO happy to hear from them that your kid was the main problem of your family and your life. Must of been nice being surrounded by all the flattery from people validated your selfish ego known as the parent group huh?
You know, it's not me who is going to feel the reprecussions of your refusal to pull your kid when you have been warned that they are in a dangerous place, it is YOU that will feel it some day.
The only smoke screen here is the cloud you are hiding in. I am glad I don't have to be you and face your troubled 30 year old some day because they are the byproduct of a mind rape mill that you refused to release them from.
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2003, 05:26:00 PM
Here we go again.... There is this nebulous fantasy world that says therapy is better over the rainbow. If you are so sure that there are better programs out there, PLEASE LIST THEM!!!! This is not a very difficult task if what you say is true. Why do I not get a reply on this that IS specific??? I am just asking you to back up what you say and I will research your options. If it is better ... why would I not switch and leave Pathway in the dust? But of course if what is said is crap... it is difficult to defend it with fact. When you cannot do this and try to change the subject, it leaves very little credibility in anything you have to say.
As far as parents needing a place to work on their issues, it is not up to you to decide whether I need more help than my parental friends can muster. I simply asked what specific program is out there to give me that help that you think would work, not make a judgement on whether I need it or not. Again fantasy land says... I don't need the help in the first place. Everything that parents do wrong, they can figure out on their own.(maybe after all the kids have gone... but eventually, all will be good) Maybe I did not want to wait for the answers to just come floating my way or I was focused on the wrong ailments and needed help (and courage) to look at the real issues. Since you do not like Pathway, where else can I go to get what I need. You say Pathway is evil.... OK.... where else do I go then? Pick one that is no more costly than Pathway and in your mind is not Evil. I just want to look at what you specificly come up with. (If you can.)
Post by: Carmel on July 23, 2003, 06:02:00 PM
That is YOUR job as a parent to research other programs. If I were a parent coming upon this sort of overwhelming dissent against the program my child is in, I wouldnt be afraid of digging deep to find the information I needed to make the best choice for my CHILD, not the best choice that stops my discomfort of being at odds with my CHILD, you are not the one in danger of being abused. You have found a huge amount of data suggesting that Pathway may be abusive and ineffective. Thats a sight more than what is available on other programs and centers, maybe instead of asking "where should I go", you should begin asking "where SHOULDNT I go"? If I were you, I would be out there pounding the pavement researching other places myself.
We are here to tell you what we experienced as clients under the same program method your child is now under. There is no fantasy about what we went through. You as a responsible parent need to break past the barrier of your comfort zone and ask responsible questions about where you are and what you should do to better the situation. Im sorry, but its not up to us to tell you where to go, although some may be able to give you more information than I can personally....dont be a victim of "not knowing better". You will end up resentful and guilt ridden over it.
In respect to backing up what I say, I am doing just that. I know what I am talking about becasue I was there, under that brand of treatment. I dont need to back up the possibility of better treatment, I need to back up the possibility that Pathway is ABUSIVE because THAT is where my knowledge lies. In your demand for answers you are yourself truly skirting the question.
The fact is that your child is now in a treatment center that is very possibly extremely damaging to them. If your child were still out living with you and not in treatment, THEN we could debate the effectiveness of different programs and have that be a valid argument. The problem is, you are looking past the situation at hand, the situation that your child is very likely in danger in this program, and I feel sorry that because I know what it was like...longing for my mother and longing to tell her the hell I was in. But do you think for one moment that your child would dare? I smiled and waved and worked my program so hard because I was PETRIFIED of the alternative....so much so that I BELIEVED what I said about myself and my situation. Thats terrifying to me that you have your child on that side of the fence that I was on so long ago.
[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2003-07-23 15:10 ]
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 23, 2003, 06:26:00 PM
Either way, pulling out of Pathway would be a good start! :smokin:
Post by: butternationalist on July 23, 2003, 07:40:00 PM
Quote
Can you list some of the programs that you believe would have had the full participation of your parents to work on their issues?
sir or maam,
In this statement you just proved your own point of children needing places like pathway wrong. I find it hard to believe that very many if any parents at all need a place such as pfc/straight. the parent groups are merely another way the staff can brainwash the clients into thinking that their parents need just as much help as the clients do. If this was the case then how could parents have gone this long without cracking and losing it. Nearly evey parent in thre i knew in my pfc days, were successful members of society with legal jobs who were mainly good people. If you have ever been involved with pfc you know, wether yu want to admit it or not- every littlething in pathway is blown out of porportion, exagerated. the staf had a way of sneakily making a mountain out of a molehill. parents were made to believe they had issuses when all they had were feelings. Staff would agitate these feelings and bring them up to get the parents, (mainly newcomer parents) into a position to where they were vulnerable enough to slide something subliminal into the conversation like, " These are things you need to work through in these parent groups, talk to your oldcomer parent, these are the things your son/daughter are woring on as well.This will help your family come together again." if parents or kids have real issues they need to see a counselor or go to outpatient group.
The Bottom Line--Feelings are turned into issues, you leave with more problems than what you came with. You are made to think that you need to keep going to pfc in order to stay healthy and deal with your "issues".
C'MON folks lets get real. peace :idea:----smith
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2003, 11:24:00 PM
Now we are getting somewhere.... This is EXACTLY what I had to do and that is how I came up with Pathway as the best route available to go. After watching others go thru less involved programs and be right back where they started before the thousands of dollars spent on their idea of rehab, I chose Pathway after seeing what they could do for my child and the rest of the family. I chose them after speaking to graduates and to clinical psychologists and social workers with what their best recommendation to do. Guess what? They are not paid spokesmen for Pathway. They all had their own program affilliates that they could have referred me to. They agreed with my decision that this place was a good option for care. No other program that I researched gave that as a intregal part of therapy. I am greatful for it. Do I agree with every clinical decision or rule they have? NOOOOOOOOO! Do I believe our lives have improved by what we have all learned? YESSSSS!
Yes Pathway has some treatment proceses of Straight but these treatment processes are common with many other treatment centers. Just like YOU, Carmel, are not a carbon copy of your mother who you have said had poor behaviors.You do have some commonalities. So things can have a common ground yet the effect is dramatically different.
Thank you for admitting that you do not know of a program that you found better than Pathway. I came to the exact same conclusion. The difference was I have a human life balancing on the decision I made. Fortunately for me, it has turned out to be the best one I could have made.
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 24, 2003, 02:46:00 AM
BTW, Do or did you have a foster parent license issued by your state (MI, or IN) while hosting kids in Pathway? I tend to believe that you did/do not. Please, do tell... If you did not host kids... then... the rule is that at least your kid hosts at another house until a certain phase or level has been attained. Did those parents have state licenses to do that? Be honest please.
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Carmel on July 24, 2003, 10:19:00 AM
And thank you for COMPLETELY twisting my words around. Admitting that I dont know the effectivness of other treatment centers in comparison with Pathway, in no way, shape or form means that I consider none of them to be better than Pathway, or especially that Pathway is the best choice. Your conclusion and mine are completely different, lets clarify that.
Fortunately for YOU....being the keywords here, what about your child?
You very simply cannot understand where we as former clients are coming from. All the psychologists, the counselors, the parents...everyone except the clients, are positioned to view an entirely separate perspective of what goes on in the program than what really happens there. No psychiatrist is gonna tell you about the violence, or the verbal abuse.....and you arent even going to see it. Its all packaged and sanitized for Open Meetings. If you are okay with that fact, then lets drop it here.
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2003, 03:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-23 23:46:00, METALGOD8 wrote:
"Uh oh, that's the same thing my parents said 20 years ago. You just go on thinkin your life is great. In your mind, it probably is. Give it some time. In the meantime check out the 42 names of STRAIGHT, INC, KIDS Of New Jersey, etc etc... suicide victims when you get some time. It is rather compelling.
BTW, Do or did you have a foster parent license issued by your state (MI, or IN) while hosting kids in Pathway? I tend to believe that you did/do not. Please, do tell... If you did not host kids... then... the rule is that at least your kid hosts at another house until a certain phase or level has been attained. Did those parents have state licenses to do that? Be honest please.
MG8 :smokin:
"
Here is the Michigan state law so we can get rid of another bogus issue. Since I am quoting state law, you might have difficulty in twisting it to say what you want but I am sure you will try. I will speak about how things were done in my home since you are feebly trying to say I am breaking the law. Since I do not have the same child for more than 4 days in a row, 24 hours CONTINUOUSLY (holliday + weekend) for more two weeks in a row, the law does not apply. If I host during the week for 5 days, the law still says in my care for 24 hours 4 days in a row and 2 weeks straight. THE LAW HAS BEEN COMPLIED WITH EVERYTIME I HOST. Also the law applies to only minors (under the age of 18) so if I hosted 6 people and 1 over the age and another being my child, there are still less than 7 people that the law would apply to. But of course if you had a leg to stand on, you would have been quoting the state law right? Isn't amazing? I find facts to back up why I say. Others just state what they want to believe and that is supposed to make it true. Again, all this does is put less and less credibility into any arguments presented.... MG8 is smoking because he/she got burnt on another one of her big unsupported problems with Pathway.
http://www.michigan.gov (http://www.michigan.gov)
synopsis:
The Legal Basis for Licensing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The legal basis for licensing child care organizatons in Michigan is Act 116 , of the Public Acts of 1973, as amended. Foster family homes and foster family group homes are types of child care organizations as defined in Act 116.
As defined in Act 116:
Foster Family Home - means a private home in which 1 but not more than 4 minor children, who are not related to an adult member of the household by blood or marriage, or who are not placed in the household pursuant to the adoption code, are given care and supervision for 24 hours a day, for 4 or more days a week, for 2 or more consecutive weeks, unattended by a parent or legal guardian.
Foster Family Group Home - means a private home in which more than 4 but fewer than 7 minor children, who are not related to an adult member of the household by blood or marriage, or who are not placed in the household pursuant to the adoption code, are provided care for 24 hours a day, for 4 or more days a week, for 2 or more consecutive weeks, unattended by a parent or legal guardian.
The exact reading of the state statute:
(i) ?Foster family home? is a private home in which 1 but not more than 4 minor children, who are not related to an adult member of the household by blood or marriage, or who are not placed in the household pursuant to the Michigan adoption code, chapter X of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 710.21 to 710.70, are given care and supervision for 24 hours a day, for 4 or more days a week, for 2 or more consecutive weeks, unattended by a parent or legal guardian.
(ii) ?Foster family group home? means a private home in which more than 4 but fewer than 7 minor children, who are not related to an adult member of the household by blood or marriage, or who are not placed in the household pursuant to the Michigan adoption code, chapter X of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 710.21 to 710.70, are provided care for 24 hours a day, for 4 or more days a week, for 2 or more consecutive weeks, unattended by a parent or legal guardian.
http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mile ... highlight= (http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-722-111&highlight=)
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 24, 2003, 03:45:00 PM
Was your home altered in any way for the expected arrival of children not related to you but in your care there according to Pathway guidelines? Can you speak for all of the clients? Do you know if all of the clients get moved around often enough to satisfy the law?
As my Phillip Morris bumper sticker reads: I am a proud American smoker. :smokin: :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 25, 2003, 12:11:00 AM
The bottom line is this MG8. If you have issues you wish to discuss with me or others about your feelings about your therapy experience or ideas about how therapy could be made to better serve you then talk about those things. When you make false claims about what you clearly have no clue to be in the realm a stitch truth, I will expose it to the rest of those who read the posts. So I guess your choice, lie and be called on it or stick to things you know.
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 25, 2003, 12:57:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 25, 2003, 01:43:00 PM
Prior to Pathway did I alarm doors? No! I was not housing drug addicted children who I could not trust to follow simple rules of my home. What was the point of alarming the doors? Was I going stop them or to run after them? Hell no, let them go if they want to go. Alarming the doors meant that I could let the program know in a timely manner and also the police. Why the police? To make law enforcement aware that you were out there.It is their job TO FOLLOW THE LAW and make sure you are returned or not. If you were court ordered to be in treatment, then after your apprehension, your parole officer could decide if you were going back or serve time. That was not my concern. My concern was that I PROMPTLY notify the proper people of your departure just as I would expect it if my child ran from a host home.
As far as current events, no matter what level the client was on we were able to do that and frequently did. I did not dwell on a subject but it was open for discussion in my home.
First phasers were not allowed to watch television. I understand that they wanted them to focus on themselves, but I believe that a couple of hours a week of television would not be detremental to treatment. If it were up to me, I would have allowed it.
We do play board games on all levels of Pathway. The lowest level kids are allowed outside for 3 to 4 hours on weekends if there is parental supervision available to do that.Higher levels only need to ask to go outside. They are not locked up in the home. We eat outside on the patio many evenings. I listen to radio traffic reports on the way into the building. I hope that that is expanded further to public radio broadcasts on current events. It may happen shortly. I hate to not hear the radio in the morning or evening as well.
Do I have a degree in drug dependency? (I have degrees, but not in drug dependency.) No silly, that's why I went to people who did. Should I listen to them or you? Their training is in helping kids with problems avoid drugs and handle problems in a healthy way. The kids I see in the program have training is how to try to successfully use drugs... most of them got an "F" in that subject. Your degree is in what by the way? I am a parent so my rights take precedent over my children's. ( that's the law too )I make decisions on the behalf of my children untill they can do it for themselves or, untill I AM LEGALLY NOT HELD LIABLE FOR THEIR POOR JUDGEMENT.
I read a interesting article in the paper last night. A Michigan 16 yr old boy (drug dependent) caused vandalism to the local high school. Over three quarters of a million dollars damage was done to the school. Guess who is being sued for the damage? The parents!!! Why? They are responsible for the actions of minors under state law. The judgement takes their home, and garnish wages untill paid in full. How the actions of one child affects the lives of the whole family. It probably isn't completely the child's problem, but it points out what happens when parents just bury their heads and PRETEND everything is fine and they will just grow out of it. I am not willing to do that.
Post by: Carmel on July 25, 2003, 03:47:00 PM
Look, I hope that changes are being made, I hope your family is getting better, I hope that more avenues for kids to get help who are TRULY drug dependent, open up. I am just saying watch out. The genetic makeup of the program your child is in came from a dark, abusive, horrific background....just as its intended purpose was based on a helpful and noble idea to help people get past their addictions. That is real, that is the truth, and you should take into consideration the fact that a program with a history such as these have are going to have to come a long way to eliminate the legacy they have made. Your child is allowed to do things in Pathway that I never was, I admit this, and its good. However, I was never one for being up in arms about whether or not someone wacthed me urinate or take a shower....girls do that sort of thing normally anyway. I DO however, take greater offense to the mental abuse, the verbal degredation during "therapy", the attempts to force my mind into a mode of thinking that was unnatural and not useful in the outside world. See, I was being "treated" by other kids...kids who were just like me. Kids with resentment and hate and fear and jealousy. The only staff member above a Straight Graduate staffer that I ever held a conversation with ws the Executive who did my intake. How can children truly get the right kind of care in these circumstances? You know why Pathway is so cheap? Because they dont have to pay therapists, they recruit the graduates. Not one single solitary staff memember who led the raps we were in even had a degree. What makes them qualified to treat me? The fact that they were forced into Straight and learned how to survive it? Thats just not a situation I would put my kid in. If their life is on the line, I am gonna hock the house and get food stamps. Not shop for the cheapest way out. My kid is worth it.
On the subject of drug addiction, I was thinking about this thread the other night and I posed a serious question to myself. What are the possibilities of a child going through a very heavy period of drug use and bad behaviour, and then coming out just fine as adults? Adults that drink occasionally, smoke, whatever, and are just fine? That happened to me, why shouldnt it be a common occurence? My period of drug use was AFTER the program by the way, in case you wonder. When you grow up, your perspective changes, your knowledge grows and your vulnerability presents itself....you look at the world differently. How can it be healthy to keep applying these harsh rules that govern your "sober" life if you are very simply grown up and not in need of such ideals?
I was sixteen years old and told if I ever drank again I was useless, going to ruin my life and myself, because I was an alcoholic. To be perfectly honest, I dont think kids know how to be alcoholics and drug addicts. Not the way adults do. I think the emotional circumstances are a million miles apart. Parents need to stop calling their kids harcore drug addicts becasue they smoke pot with their buddies or get drunk at a party. WE ALL DID THIS WHEN WE WERE YOUNG....didnt you? Are you a drug addict? You rebelled against your family, lied, cheated, stole...to some degree I bet. What makes you any different? I have done things that are so bad my kids probably wont ever do them at their worst...and I STILL am not an addict. You have to take control of your kids, even if it means giving up your liberties as a parent. Sell your house, move away, and above all, be honest about what it is you are not giving your child emotionally. Can you imagine what it might be like if you told your kid that smoking pot was bad, but if he was going to do it, he had best do it at home, or at least know that he could call you if he needed to if he was in trouble? I know its radical, but what do we as human beings love more than anything....FORBIDDEN FRUIT. I bet you he would get in half as much trouble if he knew it wouldnt piss you off.
I want my son to be able to tell me what he has done, without shame, because he is gonna do it anyway...and the more I distance myself and make myself a friggin saint and refuse to acknowledge that he is doing this stuff...the more he is going to draw away, and within his own self. If he gets in trouble, he needs to trust me that i can help him....and there is a solution. TRUST is priceless and its what is missing so much form these situations.
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 25, 2003, 05:16:00 PM
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 25, 2003, 05:34:00 PM
We are not that far apart in our wishes. I just don't accept that "he will just do it anyway". (Yes, maybe when he is on his own) The difference is I will let my child know that I love him and that I disapprove of a behavior he exibits. I can do this by stating my feelings and not attacking him (making him feel worthless or belittle him). Believe it or not, both can be done at the same time with a healthy outcome.(This is the real meat of my education at Pathway.) Remember, that he can only be a parent to his own children with as much skill as he learns from his mom and dad or hopefully someday his own wife. Maybe all my child needs is to hear that very fact to keep it from becoming worse. Some items we agree to disagree. Others, he at least has respect that in our home,certain behavior will not be tolerated and there are consequences for choosing them. But I still show love and affection. How sad would my life be if I did what I wanted to do and not had consideration for anyone else in my family? That was how it was with my child before therapy and how I feel the result would be now if I had continued to follow your methods.
It is sad that I had to learn how to do this in a healthy way from outside sources but this is what Pathway, among other sources, has taught me to successfuly do. These were talents my parents never possesed to pass on to me. I now can at least do this for my children and hopefully they will be able to do so for their own. I don't want to be his buddy, I want to be his parent. He needs parents. He already has enough buddies. If that was enough, he wouldn't be looking for me to support him. That is a responsibility of mine, he has responsibilities too. Healthy parents can function well in these roles. Unhealthy ones invite the same dysfunction to be passed on to the next generation... if they survive this one.
Post by: Anonymous on July 25, 2003, 05:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-25 14:16:00, METALGOD8 wrote:
"Well, lets see now. First phasers are not allowed to watch TV. Hmmm, seems like the national average of households that have TV's is pretty high. Did you have a TV to watch or was it turned off while hosting first phasers? The TV thing bothers me because as citizens of the USA, there is whats left of the First Amendment, enough to allow a minor, no matter what state, to watch it. Many of the brainwashing techniques used by cults like STRAIGHT, INC. included censorship of TV, Radio, etc etc... Maybe Pathway will change that rule, who knows. Certainly neither you nor I can predict that now. I appreciate the answers you give so far. Except for the name calling, I see that you are at least willing to talk about this. The only way Pathway works is the STRAIGHT, INC way. It is called a treatment modality. Facades can be erected there, but the modality still exists. When it is possible, I would suggest that you read about Synanon, talk to some of the survivors of that church. They are on the net, just search you'll find them. Learning about this modality may help you understand the FUNDAMENTAL FLAWS of Pathway and all the other programs spawned from STRAIGHT, INC, etc etc... This whole Pathway situation is not a bogus issue at all. In fact, you could ask Pathway why they are making several changes recently. They may tell you something you did not hear when your child was intaked. A few last questions... During your tenure as a program parent, how many clients were court ordered? How long was your program. (My parents were told, at STRAIGHT, INC., 6 months but it ended up being nearly 2 years) What about non-court ordered clients? Did you feel threatened or something? Was the alarm policy your idea or was that part of the program rules? Do you have any Pathway documents that you would like to share with me regarding this situation? I will respect your anonymity if you wish.
MG8 :nworthy:
Sorry, I will never give out details of people in treatment. It is against the law and not my style.
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 26, 2003, 12:17:00 AM
What about the questions I asked concerning court ordered clients? If you don't know, that's fine.
I do have one last question for you, or whoever knows. If you, as a parent of a client there at Pathway refer another family who actively participates in the program, do you get paid any money for that? Some call it a finders fee or bounty.
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2003, 02:13:00 PM
Like I said before, I do not agree with every idea that has ever been proposed, but over-all, I find the usefullness of the program to be intact. As many ideas, some have to be tried before to figure out what works best.
Post by: Antigen on July 26, 2003, 08:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-07-25 21:17:00, METALGOD8 wrote:
"OK, well, you are right, there was no TV back in 1700's, so I guess it's not an inherent right of a child to be able to watch TV.
In 1700, summers were long, school days were short, and the whole town turned up for barn-yard ho-downs or Quaker meetings or apple pie contests or whatever. Then there was the local grapevine that was woven into the fabric of every aspect of life.
Denying a kid access to TV, books, magazines, newspapers, radio, phone, contact with friends and family, religious services, a walk down the street or any kind of solitude today would be just like... well, it would be just like keeping a bunch of kid locked in a barn, isolated from every aspect of social life in 1700.
Every man has a property in his own person.
This nobody has any right to but himself.
The labor of his body and the work of his
hands are properly his.
--John Locke
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 26, 2003, 10:54:00 PM
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 27, 2003, 08:38:00 PM
I hope no one signs up for military duty. I think you will be surprised what rights you have or do not have in our democratic nation.If you doubt that, talk to someone who has. The reasonings for what is done to you in the military does not have to have a therapeutic reason behind them or be just. As the saying goes, There's the right way, the wrong way and the ARMY way. You are just required to obey orders. In my mind the time spent working on family dysfunction is worth the trade off of no television. Poooor babies!I guess I am not talking to young adults in here, just whiny babies. By the way, all current events, newspapers, computer are available for all who need to do school work. Free time is used working on therapy issues. I did not put my child in Pathway for a vacation or a place to run away from problems. We are there to WORK ON PROBLEMS. If you cannot see that then not much use in discussing the matter. The therapy is intense but my child had been abusing drugs for a few years before Pathway. I guess I am just supposed to wave a magic wand and all is good again. Another idea from Fantasy Land.
That seems to be a big theme in this room. Therapy from Fantasy Land. No one wants to work on anything...they just want a quick fix or do nothing. That what drugs and alcohol did. I guess it was not so successful. Recovery is something you have to work at. It does not come without a personal sacrifice. Nothing ever worth having ever does.
So get off the family tit and hold yourself accountable. Do what has to be done and get on with life.
Post by: METALGOD8 on July 27, 2003, 10:24:00 PM
The only clues you apparently have are the ones you get coming in here and reading what it's like from a survivor's perspective.
I would NEVER put my kids in a STRAIGHT, INC. spawn program, EVER! I teach them to avoid drugs, give them reasons to be happy in their lives without drugs. Parents that put their kids in programs like Pathway are looking for reasons to justify their lack of attention earlier in their kid's life. You'll probably think this is laying a "guilt trip" on you or something, but, back to my earlier question, what were YOU doing when your kid was abusing drugs? I would hope that you did not offer drugs to your kid, but, you are anonymous and we have never met, so I have no idea about your parenting history.
It would apppear that you won't have to worry about Pathway much longer anyway, so maybe you should move on with your life too. Come back in 5-10 years and let us know how your kid is doing. I have personally talked to over 150 survivors of STRAIGHT, Pathway, LIFE, SAFE, Synanon, Kids Helping Kids, Kids of New Jersey, and I have found only 5 that have not used any drugs since their stays in those programs. This does not mean that there aren't more that haven't, but I only speak from MY experience. Did you do any research into the suicides? I guess you haven't, but that is a real issue that affects people, even in Pathway.
Well, please answer that where were you when question. Thank you.
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on July 28, 2003, 12:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2003-07-27 17:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen, for Christ sake! You are that concerned with loosing priveledges for 3 months? I guess because you are a teenager.... 3 months is an eternity. To us who are older, it is over in flash. If it took you longer to get to that level, then look no further than in the mirror for the reasons.
]
Its obvious you dont know what the hell is going on with the people are discussing these topics with. In antigen's defense she is not a teenager and i can alreday tell is more grown up than you are. i ues she just doesnt need to stoop to your level of judging someone on te numbers of years theyve been living. I am however a teenager d am willing to bet that ive been through more in my 18 years tan most have in a whole lifetime.
Get Your Shit Straght Before You Start Talking It :exclaim:
peace--- :evil: --smith
Post by: butternationalist on July 28, 2003, 12:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2003-07-27 17:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen, for Christ sake! You are that concerned with loosing priveledges for 3 months? I guess because you are a teenager.... 3 months is an eternity. To us who are older, it is over in flash. If it took you longer to get to that level, then look no further than in the mirror for the reasons.
]
Its obvious you dont know what the hell is going on with the people are discussing these topics with. In antigen's defense she is not a teenager and i can alreday tell is more grown up than you are. i ues she just doesnt need to stoop to your level of judging someone on te numbers of years theyve been living. I am however a teenager d am willing to bet that ive been through more in my 18 years tan most have in a whole lifetime.
Get Your Shit Straght Before You Start Talking It :exclaim:
peace--- :evil: --smith
Post by: Carmel on July 28, 2003, 09:31:00 AM
I am expressing a genuine concern for the well-being of your child based on my experience with the program you are in. The fact that you cannot internalize the maturity of this in a forthcoming manner speaks volumes of your own denial and unwillingness to deal with issues. I really find it difficult to see where you state that we dont want to "work on anything" and want "quick fixes", waving a wand and making it all better is an idea I havent seen stated in any post thus far except in yours. Nothing I have mentioned is akin to using drugs and alchohol or instituting quick fixes or not taking responsibility. I am challenging you to see that what you are doing may be those very things that you like to accuse the rest of us of.
I see nothing more than someone regressing into a shroud of espousing program dogma in order to deny that anything besides what the almighty PFC tells you might be true.
The crap you say about working on issues and working on myself and taking accountability, its all by wrote. Its all the same tape played over and over and over in our "treatment". I have heard these same words a phrases countless times. See, I have a leg up on you in that I WAS IN THE PROGRAM. I wasnt a parent or a sibiling. And you are acting like you are telling me some shit I havent heard before and its going to make a profound difference in the shift of this exchange. OPEN YOUR EYES.
Recovery is something to work on yes, for those who need to recover. You are in denial and I feel sad for that, truly I do. Please take a look at the gentleman's post who met with the Executive of PFC, how can you be blind to that information? How can you look away? How can you be presented with the facts and not HOLD YOURSELF AND PFC ACCOUNTABLE? THAT is the lie, THAT is the fantasy, and YOU will not see it. Please refrain from talking to us as if we were 16 year olds who just fell off the Program bus and have an axe to grind. Its ridiculous.
Post by: Anonymous on October 20, 2009, 12:55:56 PM
My name is Vincent Kovala, and I am the brother of Kathryn Kovala, the girl whose obituary was posted on page four.
Frankly, I'm insulted by the automated assumptions that so many people drew from a paragraph. How dare any of you assume that simply because my sister was in both NA and AA, that drugs or alcohol may have been a factor in her final choice of suicide. None of you even have a fraction of the story, and I cannot even begin to describe how upset I am that someone would bring her up in an effort to make a so-called "point" on their own topic.
This unfortunate event occurred in my family over six years ago, at this point, and while I have moved on, I am deeply outraged by such ignorance.
There are always a hundred stories behind any one event, but I've never seen such conclusions drawn from a story with such little detail.
Post by: Oscar on October 20, 2009, 02:54:34 PM
I am sorry for your loss.