Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Deprogrammed on September 15, 2007, 08:06:06 PM
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Well once again I see us fighting as usual accomplishing not much.
Lord of the flies all over again, only difference is that we are all adults now.
Call me crazy but I myself have been guilty of the same above mentioned behavior here before. call it an anger problem , call it what ye will , but it is still a problem for me. I also think it is a problem for a great deal of us here.
Some people have different styles of displaying this ANGER that I am speaking of. Some are passive aggressive with it, while others blatently rage, and yet some fluctuate back and forth using both methods from what I have noticed around here.
What I have noticed about myself is that although I try hard to fight it I can fluctuate from using both methods from time to time.
Can we please have a good DISCUSSION about this common problem of ours b/c it really bothers me about myself, and about others. It bothers me about myself b/c I have to live in my own skin and deal with the fact that I hurt other people at times emotionally.
Seriously, it really bothers me. I have been fighting this side of me for years now and although I have grown with it and am way better than I used to be it just seems that that fucking place got deeper into my grains than I ever had thought.
Can anyone understand what I am speaking of here?
Thoughts, comments, fuck you's, and raging about this are definitely welcomed here about this!
One person I really admire right now is NCL, she has had a lot of crap happen to her, and although I know she is not perfect, she seems calmer than myself etc...I want to know how to do that, how to achieve that.
saddened,
-DP
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No comments so far.
I guess I will assume for now that I am the only one who has this problem.
Alone,
-DP
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Well it is the weekend, that has alot to do with how fast people respond.
I never realized how much anger I still had bottled inside until I started working with children. I was in between jobs, and things were so bad at the time ( post Desert Storm recession ) that I took a job driving a van for a daycare center for pickup/dropoff/school service. Over time, the situations I found myself in really slapped me in the face about how much I needed to deal with my repressed anger issues.
I would catch myself saying really fucked up shit to kids like one time I told this girl, "Look, your little sister is cuter than you and will always get more attention.......deal with it!" Her face just caved like an avalanche and it was too fuckin late to take it back. As I frantically tried to apologize, I saw another look come creeping into her eyes, the realization that she had something to hold over on me, and she did. It took quite some time before she ever let it go. This forum used to be about helping, and still is in a sense, but you are right, the Oldtimers have moved on and all that's left are the ones who still think they are on the playground...........but the kids on that Island would eat these assholes for breakfast in my book.
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Well it is the weekend, that has alot to do with how fast people respond.
I never realized how much anger I still had bottled inside until I started working with children. I was in between jobs, and things were so bad at the time ( post Desert Storm recession ) that I took a job driving a van for a daycare center for pickup/dropoff/school service. Over time, the situations I found myself in really slapped me in the face about how much I needed to deal with my repressed anger issues.
I would catch myself saying really fucked up shit to kids like one time I told this girl, "Look, your little sister is cuter than you and will always get more attention.......deal with it!" Her face just caved like an avalanche and it was too fuckin late to take it back. As I frantically tried to apologize, I saw another look come creeping into her eyes, the realization that she had something to hold over on me, and she did. It took quite some time before she ever let it go. This forum used to be about helping, and still is in a sense, but you are right, the Oldtimers have moved on and all that's left are the ones who still think they are on the playground...........but the kids on that Island would eat these assholes for breakfast in my book.
Hey,
Thank you for replying. I appreciate it.
So what kinds of techniques have ye used that help ye out of this kind of anger mess?
-DP
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Hmmm...anger...fighting. I think I deal with both in ways that aren't always healthy....I seem to have the opposite problem. I avoid anger, confrontation and fighting like the plague. In part because of Straight, I developed an extreme aversion to and and all confrontation....and in part because of my personality...I dont like to fight...period. I prefer peace and tranquility.
I am sure you could imagine how that has taken shape over the years....there are various ways I have not dealt with issues b/n myself and others because I dont want to risk fighting, confrontation or anger to deal with them.....I call that unhealthy avoidance.
On the other hand I insist that others give me time to calm down cause I dont like the fighting, etc. And I dont like how I act when I am pissed. So I prefer to wait until I can act like a rational person. I also try to be diplomatic and have developed a sense of when to push an issue, when not to....some things are just too petty or trivial, imo to make a big deal about it. I also pick my battles very carefully...meaning the bigger things. Once in awhile I do lose my cool if I am pushed to far....that shows up in some of my older posts.
So straight created aversions created an extremely unhealthy avoidance pattern that is at times, much worse than it would have been...given my natural personality, tendancies, etc. And sometimes it is healthy. Its a strange mixture of both.
Oh...DP thanks for the nice words....but seriously, as you can see I am very flawed! LOL
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Thanks for posting this - I wonder if we are capable of discussing the concept of anger without losing it?
I doubt it - basically because anger is a part of brainwashing that takes place on a more primitive, less concious level of the mind.
I have struggled with anger issues, as well. It's too easy for me to lose my temper and use words I absolutely hate myself for afterwords. It's like an inner "drill seargant" explodes out of me. I fear getting angry at all, because in nearly every case, I end up with an anger hangover. It doesn't take much for me to "confront" someone like I was conditioned to, in Straight. It's horrifying. I end up feeling shaky, heart racing, face flushed, etc. For those moments, the rational, decent part of me gets switched off. Afterwards, I feel exhausted, depressed, unable to think or function properly etc. In other words, the outburst and the aftermath have similar traits to PTSD.
Fight or Flight, Posture or Submit.
In nature, members of the same species get along fairly well. Competition is generally limited to certain behaviors that are ritualized, to prevent actual injury. When two animals in competition for resources like food or a mate, approach one another, the general routine starts with posturing, then vocalizations. If neither backs down, it can get physical, but in nature, usually the younger and weaker animal can and will retreat. If retreat is not an option, the weaker animal will submit, ie, show it's throat, lay on the ground, etc. Usually, the dominant animal allows the defeated one to escape - often with no injuries or only minor ones. It's this process that allows younger, less experienced animals the opportunity to reach maturity and eventually reproduce. So what happens to animals that keep fighting when they are outmatched? Well, according to Darwin, they are stupid and they get killed - and therefore do not pass on thier genes to future generations.
In nature, it's generally OK for animals to "posture" ie. act like they are willing to fight, but most will choose to flee, posture, or submit to actual combat.
Brainwashing, is basically conditioning someone to do something they would otherwise think insane.
In Straight, we could Fight, Posture, or Submit. Rarely was Flight an option. Worse still, if we found ourselves in a fight and opted to submit, we had no faith that the attack would not continue unabated, or even escalate into a group frenzy.
I recently picked up a book by a former army officer and psychology professor. The book addresses combat trauma and PTSD among veterans. He details the process of turning a kid into a soldier, using a process called "operant conditioning". In essence, boot camp and other training recieved by the recruit allow him to do automatically what had previously been unthinkable. Run toward danger, attack and kill, but only if so ordered.
All that screaming done by drill seargants is part of the process of getting a recuit to "submit". In essence, the goal is to restrict the Fight behavior so that it's only an option when "under orders" Likewise, Of course, the desire to Flee must also be conditioned away. For a recruit/soldier, most of waking time is spent in either Posture or Submit mode. When they do "fight", they are rewarded, but only if they fight as ordered. Recruits experience a form of bonding to thier group, and a sense of elation when thier channeled aggression is acknowledged by their peers and superiors.
Does this sound familiar at all?
In the field, soldiers do as they were trained, and within the framework of the armed forces, this training gives soldiers a greater chance to survive, and given the proper circumstances, the likelyhood of emotional trauma post-conflict can be fairly low.
PTSD is less likely to occur among soldiers if:
They are under direct orders to act, especially if the authority figure is nearby, and feared/respected by the group.
they feel morally certain about thier actions "I was defending my life and the lives of my friends",
The enemy is distant. (the degree of emotional trauma is in direct correlation to how close the enemy is)
They act as part of a group, and have that group's approval/support.
Last and perhaps most importantly, they have the respect/support of society when returning home.
Post-conflict support by society may be the most important element for resolving the emotional trauma experienced. WWII vets were welecomed home with parades. Viet Nam vets were insulted, avoided, and treated as pariahs. Overall, Viet Nam vets had far more difficulty with PTSD, and I believe this is directly resultant from the ambiguous response they got upon returning home.
PTSD is more likely to occur if:
The authority figure is not respected.
The "enemy" is near
The individual is not bonded to the group
Most important again, is the reception they recieve by peers and family when they return to society. In order of importance, they need thier peer's support most of all, thier family's second, and society's third. Studies have shown that even mild traumatic incidents can lead to severe PTSD among soldiers that suffer a negative emotional response from even one of the three above groups.
Straight was a PTSD Factory.
Think about the reaction most kids got when the brainwashing didn't stick, and they responded with "Fight", "Posture" or "Flight"
Screamed at by peers.
Rejected by families.
Considered "criminals, juvies, and head cases" by society.
It's a wonder we're not more screwed up than we are.
So, why do we blow up at people? Why do we attack each other viciously in these forums? Why can't we ever hang out together in even small groups? Because event the most violently anti-Straight among us - those who claim a degree of liberation - are still "brainwashed". I'm not talking about rational thinking here, folks, I'm talking instinctive, subconcious, cerebellum shit.
A lot of us have aggression issues. I believe it has to do with a form of "operant conditioning" we were put through. All of us feared being confronted, and most of us were initially very afraid to be the one to do the confronting. Eventually, we were called on to do the confronting. If we didn't, the group would go after us. A lot of us faked it at first, but were "rewarded" by the group or staff.. Eventually, we became indoctrinated into a seriously aggressive form of "posturing".
However, none of us had the "flight" option. We could "fight", which usually led to extreme confrontation, if not restraint, beat-downs, etc.
Several factors about Straight's methods amplified the negative emotional trauma many of us struggle with. Remember, the goal of "operant conditioning" is to create behaviors and actions on an automatic, not cognitive level. They IMBEDDED it.
Straight participants are more likely to suffer emotional trauma because:
Confrontations happened in very close proximity,
generally while in a group we feared,
in front of staff we distrusted.
Even when we were fully indoctrinated, the anxiety and fear of the group or staff "turning on us" was always close by. Worse still, if that happened, our families could be expected to support staff's decision. By default society would reject us as well. This is the perfect storm of "operant conditioning" at it's worst.
Those of us who elected to avoid doing any confronting became the targets of attack and rejection by the group. According to psychologists, this approach leads to a condition of "learned helplessness" Dogs beaten repeatedly in thier cages will eventually not run away, even if the cage door is left open for extened periods. For those of us who asked ourselves "why didn't I run away? Why didn't I fight back?" Here's your answer - directly from B.F. Skinner.
For those of us who are still busy hating staff members, keep in mind that PTSD is prevalent among line officers. They are instructed to act upon the dubious orders of superiors they likely don't respect, while remaining above/apart from the group, knowing those orders may result in harm to those they have been trained to lead and protect. Even the best intentioned officers suffer the horrible realization that their best efforts cannot prevent terrible things from happening.
I would imagine most former staff members have two choices.
Remain completely indoctrinated as a means of psychological defense. When reality creeps in, it's a bitch.
Or,
Suffer amplified emotional trauma resulting from:
Rejection by those they thought of as authority figures
Rejection and condemnation by the group
Rejection by society, and accusations of being conspirators.
Personally, I had to acknowledge all of the above, and am still dealing with it.
-
Thanks for posting this - I wonder if we are capable of discussing the concept of anger without losing it?
I doubt it - basically because anger is a part of brainwashing that takes place on a more primitive, less concious level of the mind.
I have struggled with anger issues, as well. It's too easy for me to lose my temper and use words I absolutely hate myself for afterwords. It's like an inner "drill seargant" explodes out of me. I fear getting angry at all, because in nearly every case, I end up with an anger hangover. It doesn't take much for me to "confront" someone like I was conditioned to, in Straight. It's horrifying. I end up feeling shaky, heart racing, face flushed, etc. For those moments, the rational, decent part of me gets switched off. Afterwards, I feel exhausted, depressed, unable to think or function properly etc. In other words, the outburst and the aftermath have similar traits to PTSD.
Fight or Flight, Posture or Submit.
In nature, members of the same species get along fairly well. Competition is generally limited to certain behaviors that are ritualized, to prevent actual injury. When two animals in competition for resources like food or a mate, approach one another, the general routine starts with posturing, then vocalizations. If neither backs down, it can get physical, but in nature, usually the younger and weaker animal can and will retreat. If retreat is not an option, the weaker animal will submit, ie, show it's throat, lay on the ground, etc. Usually, the dominant animal allows the defeated one to escape - often with no injuries or only minor ones. It's this process that allows younger, less experienced animals the opportunity to reach maturity and eventually reproduce. So what happens to animals that keep fighting when they are outmatched? Well, according to Darwin, they are stupid and they get killed - and therefore do not pass on thier genes to future generations.
In nature, it's generally OK for animals to "posture" ie. act like they are willing to fight, but most will choose to flee, posture, or submit to actual combat.
Brainwashing, is basically conditioning someone to do something they would otherwise think insane.
In Straight, we could Fight, Posture, or Submit. Rarely was Flight an option. Worse still, if we found ourselves in a fight and opted to submit, we had no faith that the attack would not continue unabated, or even escalate into a group frenzy.
I recently picked up a book by a former army officer and psychology professor. The book addresses combat trauma and PTSD among veterans. He details the process of turning a kid into a soldier, using a process called "operant conditioning". In essence, boot camp and other training recieved by the recruit allow him to do automatically what had previously been unthinkable. Run toward danger, attack and kill, but only if so ordered.
All that screaming done by drill seargants is part of the process of getting a recuit to "submit". In essence, the goal is to restrict the Fight behavior so that it's only an option when "under orders" Likewise, Of course, the desire to Flee must also be conditioned away. For a recruit/soldier, most of waking time is spent in either Posture or Submit mode. When they do "fight", they are rewarded, but only if they fight as ordered. Recruits experience a form of bonding to thier group, and a sense of elation when thier channeled aggression is acknowledged by their peers and superiors.
Does this sound familiar at all?
In the field, soldiers do as they were trained, and within the framework of the armed forces, this training gives soldiers a greater chance to survive, and given the proper circumstances, the likelyhood of emotional trauma post-conflict can be fairly low.
PTSD is less likely to occur among soldiers if:
They are under direct orders to act, especially if the authority figure is nearby, and feared/respected by the group.
they feel morally certain about thier actions "I was defending my life and the lives of my friends",
The enemy is distant. (the degree of emotional trauma is in direct correlation to how close the enemy is)
They act as part of a group, and have that group's approval/support.
Last and perhaps most importantly, they have the respect/support of society when returning home.
Post-conflict support by society may be the most important element for resolving the emotional trauma experienced. WWII vets were welecomed home with parades. Viet Nam vets were insulted, avoided, and treated as pariahs. Overall, Viet Nam vets had far more difficulty with PTSD, and I believe this is directly resultant from the ambiguous response they got upon returning home.
PTSD is more likely to occur if:
The authority figure is not respected.
The "enemy" is near
The individual is not bonded to the group
Most important again, is the reception they recieve by peers and family when they return to society. In order of importance, they need thier peer's support most of all, thier family's second, and society's third. Studies have shown that even mild traumatic incidents can lead to severe PTSD among soldiers that suffer a negative emotional response from even one of the three above groups.
Straight was a PTSD Factory.
Think about the reaction most kids got when the brainwashing didn't stick, and they responded with "Fight", "Posture" or "Flight"
Screamed at by peers.
Rejected by families.
Considered "criminals, juvies, and head cases" by society.
It's a wonder we're not more screwed up than we are.
So, why do we blow up at people? Why do we attack each other viciously in these forums? Why can't we ever hang out together in even small groups? Because event the most violently anti-Straight among us - those who claim a degree of liberation - are still "brainwashed". I'm not talking about rational thinking here, folks, I'm talking instinctive, subconcious, cerebellum shit.
A lot of us have aggression issues. I believe it has to do with a form of "operant conditioning" we were put through. All of us feared being confronted, and most of us were initially very afraid to be the one to do the confronting. Eventually, we were called on to do the confronting. If we didn't, the group would go after us. A lot of us faked it at first, but were "rewarded" by the group or staff.. Eventually, we became indoctrinated into a seriously aggressive form of "posturing".
However, none of us had the "flight" option. We could "fight", which usually led to extreme confrontation, if not restraint, beat-downs, etc.
Several factors about Straight's methods amplified the negative emotional trauma many of us struggle with. Remember, the goal of "operant conditioning" is to create behaviors and actions on an automatic, not cognitive level. They IMBEDDED it.
Straight participants are more likely to suffer emotional trauma because:
Confrontations happened in very close proximity,
generally while in a group we feared,
in front of staff we distrusted.
Even when we were fully indoctrinated, the anxiety and fear of the group or staff "turning on us" was always close by. Worse still, if that happened, our families could be expected to support staff's decision. By default society would reject us as well. This is the perfect storm of "operant conditioning" at it's worst.
Those of us who elected to avoid doing any confronting became the targets of attack and rejection by the group. According to psychologists, this approach leads to a condition of "learned helplessness" Dogs beaten repeatedly in thier cages will eventually not run away, even if the cage door is left open for extened periods. For those of us who asked ourselves "why didn't I run away? Why didn't I fight back?" Here's your answer - directly from B.F. Skinner.
For those of us who are still busy hating staff members, keep in mind that PTSD is prevalent among line officers. They are instructed to act upon the dubious orders of superiors they likely don't respect, while remaining above/apart from the group, knowing those orders may result in harm to those they have been trained to lead and protect. Even the best intentioned officers suffer the horrible realization that their best efforts cannot prevent terrible things from happening.
I would imagine most former staff members have two choices.
Remain completely indoctrinated as a means of psychological defense. When reality creeps in, it's a bitch.
Or,
Suffer amplified emotional trauma resulting from:
Rejection by those they thought of as authority figures
Rejection and condemnation by the group
Rejection by society, and accusations of being conspirators.
Personally, I had to acknowledge all of the above, and am still dealing with it.
Wow!
Thank you....I understand everything that ye said and it makes a lot of sense to me.
I still don't know where to go with my anger, though.
This crap not only comes out here, but it comes out for me in all kinds of different places in my life. Relationships, romantic and otherwise; work(meaning being paralyzed to defend myself adequately).
It is so frustrating for me.
I need some more kind of counseling but unfortunately cannot afford it right now.
What triggered this in me recently is an assault I suffered from my boss at work. As of right now nothing is being done about it, and it is once again at the hands of some people that are "more powerful" than me(meaning more money, politically connected...etc...).
At the time. I had the phone in my hand to dial the police ok? I had the 9 and the 1 already dialed and fucking fear stopped me from dialing the other stinking 1. I dunno quite why I didn't dial it.
I think it was probably many factors.....My boss had me trapped in a small tight space(reminded me of time out rooms).....she said to me"go ahead and call the police this is private property(intimidation of not being believed).....and now although the key witness was less than 2ft from us while all of this was going on, the key witness is claiming to the detective that she "saw and heard nothing".
Noone to help me once again.
The "interesting" part of this is that the "key witness" was in the process of quitting employment with the same employer at the time this happened to me, and now she is all of a sudden staying with the company.
I am full of anger and hurt and do not know what to do at all.
So basically now I have retreated to my shell and will not really talk to anyone outside of my immediate family and fornits (survivors).
Sad and pathetic I feel these days.
-DP
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Excellent points all. I've obviously been a good example of this lately. As I said, things have felt pretty raw. I'm too tired and not linguistically talented enough to analyze it as well a lot of you, but here's my .02 fwiw. I was furious with myself for a long time because I was one of those that just did nothing. I couldn't. I wasn't equipped for it. I was very timid before I went in and petrified while I was there. I took whatever vile shit they threw at me. For a long time after getting out I was a pretty in your face kind of person. Especially where my kids were concerned and overreacted more times than I'd like to think. Edited to add for clarification: I was not 'in your face' with my kids, but about them. When they were little and ran up against bullies, it brought back so much that I blew and really went over the line in dealing with it. I don't ever remember consciously thinking this, but I knew I was never going to take any shit again. I would never let anyone treat me or talk to me the way they did in there and it made me a very angry person for a long time.
I don't normally react that way anymore. So much finally has been released. Especially in the last year or two. There's been a lot of healing. My husband had valve replacement surgery a few years ago and it put a lot of things into perspective for me. Having my father finally give me at least a nugget of acknowledgment that maybe, possibly, could be that it wasn't such a good idea to stick me in that place did a lot. And he didn't give me much. Yet. ::seg:: I'm working on him though. I had started to feel a little better about posting here again. I came back anonymously for a short time at first. Chicken again but I finally signed back in. I was getting a lot out of things that were going on in other forums mainly, but it was still fun to come over here. As things have surfaced recently, I've been more active. And its helped. A lot. Then I felt like I got blindsided. Again. Whether it was real or perceived, it obviously triggered something. I had gone out of my way to avoid contact with those I knew I didn't get along with.
That's why I end up floating in and out. It gets to be too much. It feels personal even though I know its really got nothing to do with me and I don't handle it well. I'm a much happier person when I keep most people at a safe distance.
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I don't sign in or use my username because I get my ass chewed every time I do. Don't know if I ever will again.
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I don't sign in or use my username because I get my ass chewed every time I do. Don't know if I ever will again.
I Choose not to sign-in as a guest because I have confidence in my-self and my TRUE friends know the deal. Those who choose to waist there time not fighting CHILD-ABUSE can simply KISS MY ASS.
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I Choose not to sign-in as a guest because I have confidence in my-self and my TRUE friends know the deal. Those who choose to waist there time not fighting CHILD-ABUSE can simply KISS MY ASS.
::huh::
Really? How's that working out for you?
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I don't sign in or use my username because I get my ass chewed every time I do. Don't know if I ever will again.
I Choose not to sign-in as a guest because I have confidence in my-self and my TRUE friends know the deal. Those who choose to waist there time not fighting CHILD-ABUSE can simply KISS MY ASS.
uh...maybe I missed something, but what does signing in as a guest and not fighting child abuse have in common?
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nikki...who exactly are your freinds? i think the only people who constantly insist that they "have freinds" are ones who really dont have any. you've mentioned your "true freinds" many, many times.
and how exactly have you been fighting child abuse nikki? none of your posts make any sense and require quite a bit of deciphering. you can try to post as a guest, but your syntax, idioms, and ALL CAPITALS give you away. you may or may not be brain damaged, but you sound like a 10 year old gossiping on a.i.m.
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Interesting post, interesting thread.
My experience with anger, now, is that I am not supposed to feel it. Somewhere along the line I set this unrealistic standard, anger was not for public display or consumption, then further on….anger was not to be experienced at all. As if, I am somehow above this vile emotion, (yeah ok).
When I was raising my Rotties, I had this revelation. The more people I met, the more love I had for my dogs (same is so with my beloved Maine Coons). It occurred to me that I was perfectly at peace with myself and I felt that way all the way up until I had to deal directly with another human being.
I had expectations of other humans, and humans are prone to disappoint expectation and anger would ensue. Rage I found to come from compromise. Very similar emotion, rage and anger, yet they come from different sources.
Not unlike many that have posted thus far, I wanted to change…I saw damage created by my own making, I saw how these emotions effected those I hold near and dear to me.
I am explosive, volatile and will fight when the bell rings and I will dance when the music plays. I tried to deny that fact about myself to myself. No wonder the internal landscaping seemed in constant turmoil….duh!
We have covered anger/rage and explosive/volatility…surface stuff…it’s stuff people see, it’s stuff that cause relationshits to fail, it’s the stuff that gets ya fired. My mind/brain perceives a threat, my mind/brain responds with attack, then my words turn vicious and my behavior is hostile. Pretty simple really…common.
What of the emotions that lay in wait…the seething, the under current that flows incessantly thru me? What of the facet of my personality that remains forever coiled…prepared to strike, despite the fact I am under no threat?
Ok, PTSD is a great explanation…but I think it incomplete! (in my experience) Because I wonder about my genetic evolution over past few millennia. I don’t think I evolved to the pinnacle of our food chain without a constant fight. Then the experience of the hunter/gatherer surely honed what fighting skills I required to dominate. Age of Reason helped me connect the dots, industrial age I suppose helped me to get shit done (?) Information Age, well the jury is still out on that….history will show what we do next…I guess what I am getting at is that “fightingâ€
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Interesting post, interesting thread.
My experience with anger, now, is that I am not supposed to feel it. Somewhere along the line I set this unrealistic standard, anger was not for public display or consumption, then further on….anger was not to be experienced at all. As if, I am somehow above this vile emotion, (yeah ok).
When I was raising my Rotties, I had this revelation. The more people I met, the more love I had for my dogs (same is so with my beloved Maine Coons). It occurred to me that I was perfectly at peace with myself and I felt that way all the way up until I had to deal directly with another human being.
I had expectations of other humans, and humans are prone to disappoint expectation and anger would ensue. Rage I found to come from compromise. Very similar emotion, rage and anger, yet they come from different sources.
Not unlike many that have posted thus far, I wanted to change…I saw damage created by my own making, I saw how these emotions effected those I hold near and dear to me.
I am explosive, volatile and will fight when the bell rings and I will dance when the music plays. I tried to deny that fact about myself to myself. No wonder the internal landscaping seemed in constant turmoil….duh!
We have covered anger/rage and explosive/volatility…surface stuff…it’s stuff people see, it’s stuff that cause relationshits to fail, it’s the stuff that gets ya fired. My mind/brain perceives a threat, my mind/brain responds with attack, then my words turn vicious and my behavior is hostile. Pretty simple really…common.
What of the emotions that lay in wait…the seething, the under current that flows incessantly thru me? What of the facet of my personality that remains forever coiled…prepared to strike, despite the fact I am under no threat?
Ok, PTSD is a great explanation…but I think it incomplete! (in my experience) Because I wonder about my genetic evolution over past few millennia. I don’t think I evolved to the pinnacle of our food chain without a constant fight. Then the experience of the hunter/gatherer surely honed what fighting skills I required to dominate. Age of Reason helped me connect the dots, industrial age I suppose helped me to get shit done (?) Information Age, well the jury is still out on that….history will show what we do next…I guess what I am getting at is that “fightingâ€
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Fuck this goddam fuckin' thread! :x
All this talk about ANGER has got me fuckin' pissed off! :flame: ::fuckoff:: :evil:
Shut up, motherfucker.. don't even reply to this!! :evil:
Don't make me break my foot off in your ASS!!! :flame:
FUCK YOU!!!!!!! :flame: :rofl: :flame: ::both:: :rofl:
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Fuck this goddam fuckin' thread! :flame:
All this talk about ANGER has got me fuckin' pissed off! :flame: ::fuckoff:: :evil:
Shut up, motherfucker.. don't even reply to this!! :evil:
Don't make me break my foot off in your ASS!!! :flame:
FUCK YOU!!!!!!! :flame: :rofl: :flame: ::both:: :rofl:
Very funny Frod.....
didn't help though...but it's ok
-DP
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Didn't help with what?
EDIT: nevermind; drunk and not really following this thread.
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Didn't help with what?
The problem I have been obviously having.
Scroll back thru the thread I guess.
-DP
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Psychedelics such as LSD, psilocybn, mescaline, ayahuasca, etc., if used properly, can dissolve many of the Straight/Stepcult imprints.
It's true.
Marijuana, if used properly, can be an effective agent as well, and it tends to be less unsettling for many people than the more powerful psychoactives.
Of course, first you have to overcome the FEAR of "DRUGS" that was embedded in us..........
People who won't use drugs to help them deal with the after-effects of Straight strike me as being kind of like someone who is stranded on a raft at sea, with a storm coming, but they won't get aboard the rescue helicopter because they have a fear of flying. The solution is at hand, and I mean this in all seriousness----smoke marijauna and destroy the Straight that still exists inside your head. No, I don't mean that doing a bong hit will immediately alleviate all the suffering, but it will help you begin to erase the brainwashing, and cope with the aftermath of it.
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And on the other side of the coin, a good fist-fight could have potentially great therapeutic value as well! Just make sure your health coverage is updated, and have a gun ready in case things should get out of hand.
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Froderick is soo MeOw ^.~ AmIrite?
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Uhh, Eff not using my username! Froderik...... See I can't edit my post, LOL. Sorry :P
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Woof has several good points.
Efforts at suppressing emotions generally do more harm than good. I used to bottle up anger and then lose it in a seriously disproportionate way. Those on the recieving end could care less that 20 little things had preceded my blow-up. This is especially true of my family. Keeping it bottled up was easier on those around me, but I started feeling like my brain was wrapped in cotton. It was as if by muting anger, I muted every other feeling too.
For me, I did some counseling. I had trouble getting over my inherent distrust, but my employer "suggested" it. It was like a huge knot in my skull got untangled a little at a time. I began to recognize that I had many options in a given situation. In other words, "auto-pilot" conditioning didn't have to be the only option.
Now, I do OK in low stress situations, and for some reason I do great in high stress situations (I think its' what soldiers and athletes refer to as "situational awareness" or being "in the zone")
It's the ordinary, every day, "medium stress" situations that get me. If I am not paying attention and something catches me by surprise, or if someone goes off on me because they are having a bad day, then, the genie is out of the bottle. More often than not, I do OK, but not always. When I do lose it, I have learned to say I'm sorry, without telling my life story.
Woof mentioned vitamin B-12. I have had health nut friends mention this to me. I don't know, but for me a good nights sleep can do wonders, though I often sleep less than I need. Proper nutrition (another rarity) also helps. Vitamin supplements seem like a prudent option.
Years ago, I started jogging. Once I got a bit of conditioning, I found that an easy run allowed me to think through situations and see new options. Whether the cardio condidtioning improved oxygen to the brain or the endorphins were the cause, I can't say. I did feel happier, more focused, and less easily upset.
I'll be the first to admit that it's a pain to exercise regularly, especially for a closet non-conformist. But, it helps me, when I can make myself do it.
Case in point: some time ago, my youngest son, told me, "Daddy, you used to get really mad and stay that way a long time. Now you get a little mad for a little while. I like you much better this way". The truth does hurt on occasion.
Several Posters have mentioned fear of anger to the point of withdrawal. I know of several folks from the real world who suffered the same problem. Any anger displayed in thier direction caused them to freeze and withdraw. Psycho bosses can take this behavior as the perfect excuse to yell more ("And Another Thing!...).The self recrimination and depression can be destructive. Anger must be dealt with, whether it's ours or someone elses.
Years back a woman I knew had a tendency to shut down and withdraw when anyone got angry with her She found that bad things kept coming her way. It was like an invisible "Kick-Me" sign was taped to her back. After she was nearly assualted in a laundromat, she took a self defense class. The program was called "Model Mugging" They literally practiced defending from attacks - verbal and physical. It's intensive, and might be hard for some to deal with the "practice" when they role-play a mugger or rapist screaming and swearing in your face. They do in fact use a form of "Operant Conditioning" but in a more appropriate way. She explained it once to me, and it made perfect sense, but I lack the memory cells to repeat it. When she tried to explain that what she learned is now "automatic - not in my head - in my spine", I understood. The instructor was a former military man and retired cop who felt the need to help abused women take back thier power.
She learned how to feign submission to gain tactical surprise, retreat when appropriate, verbally posture to make would-be attackers pause, and when/how to fight. They practice holding thier ground, countering verbal attacks, and other self protecting behaviors to assess and defuse a potential threat. If they decide that they need to fight, they fight full throttle.
If you are a wise-ass drunk with a big mouth and grabby hands on the subway, God help you.
I was able to watch her graduation video. Screaming "Dial 911!", She laid a shot on a well padded Karate instructor that lifted him 18 inches off the ground - both fists under the chin and one knee to the balls - this guy was in serious pain through 3 inches of padding. 180 pounds of attacker knocked flat by 110 pounds of femine aggression, precisely and devastatingly applied. In perfect street fighter fashion, she circled around to the head of her downed attacker, just out of reach, but ready to kick, knee or elbow his skull to bits if he opted to get up. Her girlfriends on the side lines cheered her on, yelling things like "Eyes! EYES! Jamb your thumbs into his EYES!" From time to time, I imagine new girls on front row doing this to some ass on the rap stool.
I can tell you this - the change in demeanor, body lanquage and self esteem this petite woman experienced was simply amazing. She learned to walk "heads up" and widen her "circle of awareness" when on city streets etc. Not only that, but her relationships at home and work improved. She changed companies, has moved up several positions with the new company and is doing well. She's still got the odd, "freak magnet" vibe, but in general the freaks she attracts are less threatening. Amazingly, she says she feels calmer. Something about knowing what she can do if she needs to, keeps her in better balance. So, I married her.
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DP---The incident you’re referring to… with the employer. I know the experience, check my post on “Dealing with a Silverbackâ€
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I am deeply touched in my heart right now by the love and support shown by two of you, mainly.
Woof, and Lost.
You two have really helped me a great deal through this hard time of mine. I now have a lot of work to with myself, and a lot to think about.
Woof, it made great and perfect sense to me when ye started speaking of "IT", and "THAT". I have realized that caught up in life now that I have strayed from my calm on a deeper level than I ever realized before now. I mean to say I used to really be into Taoism.
For the life of me I cannot figure out why I ever strayed from it at all when it was really working for me. I own books like "The Tao of Physics", and "The Tao of Pooh", and "A Taoist's Masters Journey".
Why "I have not picked them up again to read them to help me get back in touch with the silence, I have no clue. You reminded me of this by talking about buddism, and hinduism etc....
I have tasted your "coffee" before BTW and I liked it, b/c it worked for me. So, I wanted to say a big THANK YOU, to you for reminding me of "ME".
Lost, your ideas of excersise and B vitamins also made perfect sense to me. Physically I really need to start taking better care of myself. The fact that I am slim and trim, doesn't really mean I am at my healthiest physically right now. I have also had a very strong desire for a very long time now to take up kickboxing, but have never been able to afford it. I somehow will make myself able to afford doing just that within the next year. Also, your beautiful story about that petite woman known as your wife inspired me and touched me in a very distinctly feminine way, and in a good way.
It gives me hope that I may be able to benefit from the same thing,as well. You are also correct, I have been withdrawling in a big and self destructive way. I realized this point about myself and the "fear" of it propelled me into turning to you guys & gals here on fornits for help with the deep pit I have been in.
I am really glad that I did turn to you all before I let myself get any worse. It is easier to get worse it seems than better, getting worse can be effortless, as opposed to actually trying to "work it out".
So a big THANK YOU, to you as well on this one, as I really appreciate your help and concern.
TO ALL who have posted:
As for the ganja, I have already gone back through that to try and recapture what I had lost in Kids helping kids and it did as ye said serve its purpose at the time. That was a long time ago when I did that, not recently. One thing I have learned about myself is that sometimes when I am as down as I have been lately it just doesn't help me to participate in that. It can make me think to much sometimes when I am already that far down. No big deal, just a matter of me knowing myself in that way and my limits. I also will not drink alcohol when I feel like that, b/c of the very same reasons.
I am still glad that some of you did bring up that point though regardless. I am glad about that b/c new people trying to break free for the first time from the binds of "that place" may be able to read this thread and utilize that same information in their own personal journey of "deprogramming", as I do feel that it was an important part of my journey.
RTP. I totally get your point, please read above, and thank you for posting that. In saying that, I also feel that the person may have to be in the right mindset to achieve some form of bindbreaking experience from it all, though.
Woof, Lost...mental hugs from me to you!
Thank you for letting me feel loved and cared for even though we have never ever met. That is what touched me most of all, especially when I felt so alone with all of this.
warmest regards to all,
-DP
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Froderick is soo MeOw
(http://http://i6.tinypic.com/6gw0duu.jpg)
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And if ya don’t/cant/shouldn’t smoke pot, don’t go busting on people that do….makes for bad karma
LOL YEA, I LEARNED THAT. I THINK MY BEST FRIENDS DO
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Woof and DP, Congrats on working through this without anyone getting shredded. And on Anger, no less. Woof's thread on "It" and "that" deserve their own forum.
If you want to consider boosting your mood through chemistry, I propose a few alternatives below.
Woof and I both mentioned vitamin B-12. In nature, B-12 is found most abundantly in red meat, especially organ meat. This vitamin plays a role in metabolism, circulation, fertility and pheromone production. As a result, it affects group behaviors. In predatory species, dominant or Alpha animals exude pheromones that re-inforce thier leadership among the group. Dominant animals ingest more organs and meat as they eat before subordinate pack members, resulting in higher B-12 levels. B complex vitamins affect skin and hair condition, thus playing a role in libido, attraction and mate selection among predator species. Some research indicates mosquitos prefer to bite animals with lower b-12 levels in their blood. Could vitamin B-12 influence pheromone levels that are subconciously affecting how other people and even animals behave toward us? Can our smell be part of our "personality"? I think so. Eat more meat, or try a vitamin supplement.
DP, taking a walk is free. For the price of sneakers, a jog is almost free. Both increase your personal energy, and will help build inner reserves of stamina and it will strengthen you in preparation for kick-boxing. Exercise also generates serotonin, a key brain chemical for clear thinking and a sense of well being.
Taking a walk out-doors on a sunny day can do wonders for your well being. It engages your senses. Sunlight and exercise play key roles in regulating the endocrine system. The endocrine system includes all the bodies’ hormones, which in turn affects practically everything.
Sunlight allows the body to make it’s own vitamin D, something our society adds to milk because we don’t get outside enough. Vitamin D affects the body in a ripple effect of chemical reactions, including hormone levels, immune response, bone density, muscle mass, etc. Plus, it feels good.
I suggest you consider the possibility that your serotonin levels are not where they should be. Sleep, diet, exercise etc. all directly affect serotonin. Serotonin is a building block chemical. It affects mood, stamina, etc. As such, it plays a role in the biochemical process attached to the “Flight, Submit, Posture, or Fightâ€
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Just wanted to give you 2 an update.
I worked out today on and off for hours, and I am happy to report to you that I am no longer shaking from anxiety, and my depression as cleared it's ugly head.
Thanks again for the advice. I really appreciate it.
It amazed me at how fast it can work sometimes.
You two were able to give me a soft kick in the rear that I needed, and a sympathetic ear, as well.
warm regards,
-DP
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Years back a woman I knew had a tendency to shut down and withdraw when anyone got angry with her She found that bad things kept coming her way. It was like an invisible "Kick-Me" sign was taped to her back. After she was nearly assualted in a laundromat, she took a self defense class. The program was called "Model Mugging" They literally practiced defending from attacks - verbal and physical. It's intensive, and might be hard for some to deal with the "practice" when they role-play a mugger or rapist screaming and swearing in your face. They do in fact use a form of "Operant Conditioning" but in a more appropriate way. She explained it once to me, and it made perfect sense, but I lack the memory cells to repeat it. When she tried to explain that what she learned is now "automatic - not in my head - in my spine", I understood. The instructor was a former military man and retired cop who felt the need to help abused women take back thier power.
She learned how to feign submission to gain tactical surprise, retreat when appropriate, verbally posture to make would-be attackers pause, and when/how to fight. They practice holding thier ground, countering verbal attacks, and other self protecting behaviors to assess and defuse a potential threat. If they decide that they need to fight, they fight full throttle.
If you are a wise-ass drunk with a big mouth and grabby hands on the subway, God help you.
I was able to watch her graduation video. Screaming "Dial 911!", She laid a shot on a well padded Karate instructor that lifted him 18 inches off the ground - both fists under the chin and one knee to the balls - this guy was in serious pain through 3 inches of padding. 180 pounds of attacker knocked flat by 110 pounds of femine aggression, precisely and devastatingly applied. In perfect street fighter fashion, she circled around to the head of her downed attacker, just out of reach, but ready to kick, knee or elbow his skull to bits if he opted to get up. Her girlfriends on the side lines cheered her on, yelling things like "Eyes! EYES! Jamb your thumbs into his EYES!" From time to time, I imagine new girls on front row doing this to some ass on the rap stool.
I can tell you this - the change in demeanor, body lanquage and self esteem this petite woman experienced was simply amazing. She learned to walk "heads up" and widen her "circle of awareness" when on city streets etc. Not only that, but her relationships at home and work improved. She changed companies, has moved up several positions with the new company and is doing well. She's still got the odd, "freak magnet" vibe, but in general the freaks she attracts are less threatening. Amazingly, she says she feels calmer. Something about knowing what she can do if she needs to, keeps her in better balance. So, I married her.
What a great story. Good for her. I've been thinking this past year about taking one of those classes for those same reasons. Maybe I'll look into it a little more.
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The web site for model mugging is listed below.
http://www.modelmugging.org/ (http://www.modelmugging.org/)
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I recently came across an article on-line by a Harvard Psychology professor, detailing a new classification of PTSD. Her paper details "complex PTSD" and references a spectrum of issues suffered by people that do not fit the classical definition of PTSD. Cops, Soldiers, victims of extreme violence are considered candidates for PTSD, but no definition previously identified the suffering experienced by individuals as a result of cults, involuntary incarceration, ritual abuse etc.
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I really appreciate that the supportive and informative nature of this particular thread.
I appreciate what's been offered to learn from, therein.
Again, I find something on Fornits that is of timely use to me.
I am titrating off of my meds., and find that without them there is some seriously exhausting, overwhelming, rage roiling beneath my serene surface.
Thank you to the OP and to each of the considerate participant’s contributions.
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I recently came across an article on-line by a Harvard Psychology professor, detailing a new classification of PTSD. Her paper details "complex PTSD" and references a spectrum of issues suffered by people that do not fit the classical definition of PTSD. Cops, Soldiers, victims of extreme violence are considered candidates for PTSD, but no definition previously identified the suffering experienced by individuals as a result of cults, involuntary incarceration, ritual abuse etc.
Here's a thread on this very issue, started several months ago:
Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26624 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26624)[/list]
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I recently came across an article on-line by a Harvard Psychology professor, detailing a new classification of PTSD. Her paper details "complex PTSD" and references a spectrum of issues suffered by people that do not fit the classical definition of PTSD. Cops, Soldiers, victims of extreme violence are considered candidates for PTSD, but no definition previously identified the suffering experienced by individuals as a result of cults, involuntary incarceration, ritual abuse etc.
I'm not sure if CPTSD is that new. I've known for over 5 years that I've had it, because of what I suffered at school.