Post by: Antigen on August 30, 2007, 12:25:10 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
He was free to leave the program anytime he wanted to follow my rules at home. He declined. He thought that having to go to school every day, doing homework before video games, not abusing me and my daughter, and not fighting were a violation of his human rights. Sounds a little like you.
To all: Has it ever occurred to you that kids who resist compulsory schooling and who react with rage over being forced into it might have sound justification? That the schooling system and modern culture in general are disordered, harmful to the kids and that the kids who resist are probably saner than those who go blithely along?
I'm not really asking rhetorically. It took me probably 6 years of my oldest daughter's schooling before it really came home to me that school is no safe place for vulnerable children and I took her out. I wonder how many others among my own generation of parents are trudging along to the same conclusion and if there's anything I can do to help step up the pace.
Quote from: ""In Harpers September 2003 issue, John Taylor Gatto""
AGAINST SCHOOL
How public education cripples
our kids, and why
By John Taylor Gatto
...
Mass schooling of a compulsory nature really got its teeth into the United States between 1905 and 1915, though it was conceived of much earlier and pushed for throughout most of the nineteenth century. The reason given for this enormous upheaval of family life and cultural traditions was, roughly speaking, threefold:
1) To make good people. 2) To make good citizens. 3) To make each person his or her personal best. These goals are still trotted out today on a regular basis, and most of us accept them in one form or another as a decent definition of public education's mission, however short schools actually fall in achieving them. But we are dead wrong. Compounding our error is the fact that the national literature holds numerous and surprisingly consistent statements of compulsory schooling's true purpose. We have, for example, the great H. L. Mencken, who wrote in The American Mercury for April 1924 that the aim of public education is not
to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. ... Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim ... is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States... and that is its aim everywhere else.
Because of Mencken's reputation as a satirist, we might be tempted to dismiss this passage as a bit of hyperbolic sarcasm. His article, however, goes on to trace the template for our own educational system back to the now vanished, though never to be forgotten, military state of Prussia. And although he was certainly aware of the irony that we had recently been at war with Germany, the heir to Prussian thought and culture, Mencken was being perfectly serious here. Our educational system really is Prussian in origin, and that really is cause for concern.
...
The Underground History Of American Education: A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation Into The Problem Of Modern Schooling By John Taylor Gatto (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MOKMFM?ie=UTF8&tag=circlofmiamithem&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B000MOKMFM)" It's a tome, not a read through kind of book, but invaluable for historic reference and inspiration.
Post by: BuzzKill on August 30, 2007, 03:53:57 PM
Quote
To all: Has it ever occurred to you that kids who resist compulsory schooling and who react with rage over being forced into it might have sound justification? That the schooling system and modern culture in general are disordered, harmful to the kids and that the kids who resist are probably saner than those who go blithely along?
Yes, this has occurred to me. Generally speaking, I think you have it about right. There are always exceptions to the rule, good teachers who try to help kids think for themselves and be creative and innovative. But public education is for the most part a matter of making them all come out the same. Those who have trouble with this process, may not be the sanest, but I think they are often the more sensitive and creative and intelligent and intuitive.
Post by: Antigen on August 30, 2007, 04:02:23 PM
Quote
Dr. Emanuel Bronner was a master soapmaker, self-proclaimed rabbi, and, allegedly, Albert Einstein’s nephew.
In 1947, after escaping from a mental institution, he invented the formula for “Dr. Bronner’s Magic Soap,â€
Post by: Oz girl on August 30, 2007, 07:21:13 PM
One American educational concept I really like the idea of is a charter school.
Post by: Joseph W. Gauld on August 30, 2007, 07:39:42 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
One American educational concept I really like the idea of is a charter school.
Let me tell you about some Charter Schools... heh, heh. Note that we have a 100% college acceptance rate!!
So what if we help them apply to every poduck 2 year commuter college in the district... getting into one of these "high school extension" programs is a prerequisite for their getting their Hyde School diploma, so these babies will sweat it for that fine piece of vellum! ...Assuming they have the character for it, har! har!
If they need another year or two of high school to be able to swing it, that's okay... we could really use the free Teacher's Aide.
Enthusiastically,
Joseph W. Gau!d, The Educator
Hyde Schools
Post by: Antigen on August 30, 2007, 07:52:31 PM
But back up a minute here. Government mandated schooling is a relatively new concept in the land of the free. It only really started to take off a hundred years ago. Private, voluntary learning is the default condition, not the other way around. So it's a little off to frame the argument as 'using' homeschooling (i.e. escaping from compulsory government schooling) for any particular purpose.
One of the hardest things about homeschooling for our family was that there were so few people doing it. It gave the kids a sort of stigma to overcome. Not just with the other kids, either. Our society no longer knows what to do with a kid who's not kept caged up like that. And that's sad.
I'm not proposing that individual homeschooling will solve a lot. Instead I'm proposing that we phase out the government schooling model all-together and take back that nearly sacred task.
Post by: psy on August 30, 2007, 09:32:08 PM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
One of the hardest things about homeschooling for our family was that there were so few people doing it. It gave the kids a sort of stigma to overcome. Not just with the other kids, either. Our society no longer knows what to do with a kid who's not kept caged up like that. And that's sad.
I was home schooled. What was nice during my childhood was there were many other homeschoolers nearby. We did our work for a few hours and hung out for the rest of the day. Arguably we had more socialization than most kids would have, with a wider age group too. I was just fine and dandy until I went to Benchmark.
Post by: TheWho on August 30, 2007, 09:39:45 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""One of the hardest things about homeschooling for our family was that there were so few people doing it. It gave the kids a sort of stigma to overcome. Not just with the other kids, either. Our society no longer knows what to do with a kid who's not kept caged up like that. And that's sad.I was home schooled. What was nice during my childhood was there were many other homeschoolers nearby. We did our work for a few hours and hung out for the rest of the day. Arguably we had more socialization than most kids would have, with a wider age group too. I was just fine and dandy until I went to Benchmark.
Psy, do you mind me asking what type of homeschooling did your parents use. Was it prestructured like "Calvert"? Did you have to work at it all day or was it just a few hours because you didnt have to put up with all the class changes and other bull they hand you at public school.
Socializing is probably the biggest worry to most embarking on this course.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 30, 2007, 09:50:34 PM
But it's not the solution to public schools, perhaps fostering an diverse eco-system of different teaching models would produce a workable system. One where the line between teachers and parents/students wasn't obstructed by government.
Post by: Karass on August 31, 2007, 12:49:49 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
One American educational concept I really like the idea of is a charter school.
Charter schools, like any other American schools, rank all over the place in terms of quality. But some are really outstanding and are run by educators who are not in it for the money, not in it for religious reasons, but just in it because they -- like so many parents -- are fed up with the bullshit that passes for public school education in the U.S. Some teachers actually give a shit about teaching, and seeing evidence that students are learning and, more importantly, thinking.
I have 3 teenagers who all spent K-6 in a fantastic charter school. They had great teachers in a school with lots of parental involvement. My wife and I didn't want them to be social misfits and didn't think very highly of the charter school options for junior high & high school, so they transferred to the public school system in 7th grade. I don't think it's a coincidence that every one of them was at least a semester ahead of their peers academically, and had a much more positive view of school than their peers when they entered the public school system. Sadly, they were in for a big disappointment -- learning that the public schools for jr high and high school were nothing like the place they looked forward to attending every day as elementary school kids.
Public school was a disaster for our oldest, because he instantly recognized it was such bullshit and many -- but thankfully not all -- of his teachers were either incompetent, uncaring or just too overwhelmed by the restrictions put on them by "the rules" to be effective teachers. He did his time, and that's about all you can say. They didn't succeed in socializing him, and they didn't succeed in teaching him much that he couldn't have learned faster and more in depth without their formulaic "help" and methods and rules.
American public schools have a lot in common with TT behavior mod programs. Uniformity of thought and behavior, compliance with and acceptance of authority, and a one size fits all least-common-denominator approach to imparting only the information that society decides should be known to all citizens. Independent thought and radical viewpoints are just as discouraged in the public schools as they are in TT programs.
There are a few rays of hope. Some of them emanate from alternative schools, including some charter schools, but most of them emanate from parents who prefer to teach their children not to be sheep, to be suspicious of authority figures who claim to hold the "truth" and to be wary of going with the flow and following the masses.
Post by: Oz girl on August 31, 2007, 06:30:35 AM
Particularly since here you have 2 choices -Public or Private (nobody at all home schools but cult members) Many parents who go private send their kids to religious schools in spite of their own beliefs because there are no other private options and they feel the kid gets more attention than at a public school. Although Australian Public schools do not have the same Zero Tolerance mentality as the US and are smaller, they also dont always cater for the needs of the individual. So less well off families can really scrimp and save to afford private education. With this in mind i like the idea that you can get another option out of your tax $$$
scarlett both you and Gatto seem enamoured with this idea that public education in the US is new. I dont doubt this. Nor Do i think that in all cases homeschooling is a bad idea. But because ppl did things differently in the olden days does not mean they did things better. Afterall People also beat their children wayback when. Aboriginals did not get the vote here till 69. i dont see anyone bragging about that on any tourist sites.
The other thing that often gets left out of discussions on education is the idea that it does not begin and end in the classroom (or lack thereof) i can remember at school there was 1 token jewish kid in my class at the pompous Catholic girls school my parents made me attend. She fitted into the category of those whose parents feel compelled to go with a religious education even though it is at odds with their own belief system. her dad was a Rabbi. One day I asked what her parents made of the dull as dogshit divinity classes and why she did not plead judaism to get out of them. She said that her family did not care because they figured that they were the primary role models and thus could get her to take the good with the bad.
Post by: Covergaard on August 31, 2007, 06:57:50 AM
In such case the City Hall has to send a teacher out to the family and teach the child 1-to-1 until they have found a more permanent solution. Otherwise the city would be convicted in court.
The reason for such a law is to ensure a certain quality in schooling but also so the authorities can put their nose into certain groups in our society. We were in the frontline during the cold war and we are somewhat closer to Al Quada than most people. We want to continue to be the odd Danes in the world and one method is that we ensure that our children are educated enough to be both annoying and do understand the concept of satire.
The normal size of a class from grade 0-9 is 26 students max. Every city do have special classes with below 10 students for those children, who can not function in larger groups.
We have recidentials schools for children with very special needs but they are not lockdowns. The students have cell-phones for the most part. There is no level system. They just have to attend the school until they either take their exam or can attend a normal school.
Even 70-80 percent children convicted of crimes and court ordered to stay at a RTC attend the public school where the RTC is located with additional support when they return to the RTC after school. We have 2-3 RTC, which is similar to your juvenile halls where they receive education inhouse. (It is against the law to procecute a child aged below 15 regardless of what kind of crime they have committed. That is why there is not so many of them.)
However I find that Home-schooling is a useful solution in a larger country than Denmark. In Australia they have a radio-school which have been in service for decades. But the most important thing that you should develop, is special classes in the normal school where there is only max. 10 students and perhaps mandatory presence by a parent during school to ensure discipline and support for the teacher. (It is called family classes in Denmark. It works very well when the teacher can teach and the parent can ensure silence.)
Post by: Anonymous on August 31, 2007, 09:57:35 AM
We don't need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom.
Teacher leave the kids alone.
Hey, teacher leave the kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 31, 2007, 11:18:02 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
We're doomed.... :o
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 31, 2007, 12:40:33 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 31, 2007, 01:24:31 PM
Post by: TheWho on August 31, 2007, 02:05:43 PM
Post by: Antigen on August 31, 2007, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: ""Karass""
American public schools have a lot in common with TT behavior mod programs. Uniformity of thought and behavior, compliance with and acceptance of authority, and a one size fits all least-common-denominator approach to imparting only the information that society decides should be known to all citizens. Independent thought and radical viewpoints are just as discouraged in the public schools as they are in TT programs.
Yep, this is pretty much my answer to the most common concern about homeschooling; socialization. It's funny, too, how firmly planted is the myth that schooling provides positive socialization. Many times strangers have remarked on how competent, confident, polite and just nice my kid is and how rare kids like that are these days. When I say they don't go to school, they'll go right to "well how do they get socialization then?" Answer: I don't send them to school lol
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There are a few rays of hope. Some of them emanate from alternative schools, including some charter schools, but most of them emanate from parents who prefer to teach their children not to be sheep, to be suspicious of authority figures who claim to hold the "truth" and to be wary of going with the flow and following the masses.
Yup, that's what did it for me, my dad. Despite all the schooling my dad made sure we were skeptical.
Post by: Anonymous on August 31, 2007, 06:45:58 PM
Hanzo's post right after it, quoting it is still there.
Is that some kind of glitch or was it deleted on purpose for some reason and not the quote of it which seems strange?
Post by: Ursus on August 31, 2007, 07:45:03 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Where did the guest post with the video go?
Hanzo's post right after it, quoting it is still there.
Is that some kind of glitch or was it deleted on purpose for some reason and not the quote of it which seems strange?
Perhaps it was from another thread?
Post by: Ursus on August 31, 2007, 07:48:30 PM
The concept also attracts a lot of people with not so good intentions, however; witness Gauld's Hyde Leadership Charter Schools. He's tried them in several places, seems to have about a 50% take rate, perhaps less (they close half the time due to parental and school district dismay). Where they have been "successful," i.e., not closed down, is crime-infested urban ghettos where the alternative for kids is so unbelievably dismal that any alternative is gratefully accepted. From their standpoint, Gauld offers them a chance for a different life.
"No-thanks": Gardiner, ME; Oakland, CA; Springfield, MA.
"Here-we-go": New Haven, CT; Washington D.C.; Bronx, NY.
The above list may not be complete. He's tried in someplace in Maryland, yet the website has not been updated for almost a year (after having been in operation for a few months); I'm not sure what's going on there. That school seems to have more of an overt religious influence (vestiges of the school it replaced, perhaps?).
There may be a few other locations as well. Hard to obtain info on the failures. Reference on the internet virtually disappears in those cases.
Post by: Oz girl on August 31, 2007, 07:51:46 PM
Post by: Ursus on August 31, 2007, 08:01:34 PM
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 31, 2007, 08:13:14 PM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""Where did the guest post with the video go?Perhaps it was from another thread?
Hanzo's post right after it, quoting it is still there.
Is that some kind of glitch or was it deleted on purpose for some reason and not the quote of it which seems strange?
Nope it was right before my post
Post by: Deborah on August 31, 2007, 08:55:50 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Quote from: ""Ursus""Quote from: ""Guest""Where did the guest post with the video go?Perhaps it was from another thread?
Hanzo's post right after it, quoting it is still there.
Is that some kind of glitch or was it deleted on purpose for some reason and not the quote of it which seems strange?
Nope it was right before my post
No reason other than "do we need two"? Hanzo's was left because it contained a comment. The other had no comments, just the video. If it was somehow different, repost it, and accept my apology.
Post by: Anonymous on August 31, 2007, 09:01:14 PM
Post by: 3xsaSeedling on August 31, 2007, 11:09:32 PM
and some I wish had been :smokin: