Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: SettleForNothingLess on July 28, 2007, 10:43:14 PM
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I was there...and presented my story and opinions of Peninsula Village.. I must admit I was pretty disappointed in what the audience consisted of... basically not many....
I guess Im learning more and more about advocates every day. Most seem to be full of it... sorry, but it was made to seem like it was a big deal that I needed to drive my ass down to DC for this meeting.,.. it was made to be important,.. it seemed like a waste of a saturday that i could have been on the beach or working more on this stuff.... i left about 2 hours into the meeting,... i felt like i was at like some 4-H meeting or something.... Seems to me, that with the troubled teen industry, the NYRA isnt what most percieve it as.
Just my opinion. I mean I spent hundreds of dollars to be there.. and the audience when I was presenting this morning was about 15 kids, who not all, but most, didnt really seem to care too much about it.. I dont know, that was my perception... and I guess thats what this Fornits is for, to post our opinions, perceptions, experiences, blah, blah, blah....
The hotel I stayed in last night was really nice, and the pizza was good that I ordered last nite.. so i guess those two silly factors make up for the hundreds of $$ spent and the 14 hours of driving time,.. haha... uhh,... yea ok....
It was an interesting experience though I have to say,.. Opened my eyes more to the fact that alot of organizations are not what they crack themselves up to be. Not saying they are all completely full of it. but they should try and avoid misrepresenting to people who they are and what they are about...
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I think its time for me to get cracking on forming another organization... that IS what its cracked up to be.. No BULLSHIT
ya know?
I dont know.. im just pissed right now
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Never heard of this group...
Don't feel so down though, you went and thats more then most do. It's hard to gauge an organization just from their online presence but I would suspect that many are desperately trying to gain a footing to make a difference. It takes time, trial and error, and guts I think, but as time passes if we all keep playing the potential to truly change things will grow.
But yeah don't let this experience bum you out, I feel where you're coming from though. I know I've felt like a failure for trying things that I thought would make a difference but finding out that my actions had no effect, or not knowing if my actions had any positive effects. Can't give up though.......
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Im doing just the opposite of giving up... if anything, this experience has made me more motivated to get going with trying to form a stable organization of truthful, die hard individuals who really want to destruct the troubled teen industry. i know in my case, i tend to believe i wont stop fighting it until the day I die.
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Hey you,
Psy and I were talking about starting an organization a little while ago. I'm on the board of a non-profit up here in Canada (completely unrelated, we promote certain extreme sports and represent skateboarders in court), so I have a fair bit of knowledge about what goes into making it work. The most important part in my mind is the ability to have a voice in the media - to issue statements and such - and lobbying.
Anyway, I'm going to PM you my number....
Rachael
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. sorry, but it was made to seem like it was a big deal that I needed to drive my ass down to DC for this meeting.,.. it was made to be important,..
Who made it like it was a big deal that you needed to be there?
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. sorry, but it was made to seem like it was a big deal that I needed to drive my ass down to DC for this meeting.,.. it was made to be important,..
Who made it like it was a big deal that you needed to be there?
CAFETY and Youth ACT....
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Who from Cafety showed up and did they talk to Alex about his alliance with Isabelle/Caica?
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. sorry, but it was made to seem like it was a big deal that I needed to drive my ass down to DC for this meeting.,.. it was made to be important,..
Who made it like it was a big deal that you needed to be there?
CAFETY and Youth ACT....
Maybe you should demand some compensation. ::seg::
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Brian was there...and i dont know if he spoke to Alex about izzy... i left at 11 am
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Kristin, let me first say that I'm sorry I didn't have the opportunity to see your full presentation, and that I didn't have the chance to express my gratitude for making the time and effort to travel down to D.C. for the, um, conference. The offer that was made last week to help cover some of your expenses for traveling down to D.C. still stands.
Yes, the turnout was disappointing. I was given an estimated number of 30 individuals that had planned on attending the conference, and I suppose if you count the number of people who would have come on Sunday, plus all of the presenters, you would have about 30 people.
We viewed this as an opportunity to reach out to politically engaged youth to present an in-depth discussion of the behavioral modification industry. Sadly, this was perhaps the largest forum to have that discussion.
There are other large conferences where there are many more youth who attend (in particular the FFCMH conference in December), but it is my experience that while these youth are more personally effected by the issues of the behavioral modification industry, they are more politically apathetic. Still it is our (the board of Youth ACT) intention to present a similar discussion at that conference.
As for the conference itself, Kristin's presentation from what I could observe was excellent. After she finished I presented for about an hour (no notes, no powerpoint) and took questions from the audience. The primary point I tried to address was the fallacy of the "good program", and the differential experiences of individuals who may have had good experiences within a program, because of their luck in who their staffers were. Kristin was there for our first presentation, so you can ask me or her for more info regarding that presentation.
In the afternoon, I was able to address the issue of Isabelle and more broadly the different groups that are involved within the fight against the industry.
I explained the reasons why Youth ACT does not align itself with CAICA. They are:
The lack of transparency within the organization CAICA (no listing of board members or the "editorial board")
The lack of appropriate citations for material on the webiste
Isabelle's inability to answer or confront difficult questions that were asked of her on the CAFETY website last year when she made an effort to allign herself with CAFETY.
The general sense that Isabelle is an unreliable partner due to her inability to focus on common goals.
More recently evidence has come to light regarding Whitmore Academy, which I don't believe I need to go into here, that casts an appalling light on Isabelle.
Alex from NYRA tried to provide some defense for her actions, citing some of the positive actions she had taken to help get some youth out of programs, even housing them in her home.
I countered that while I'm willing to give Isabelle the benefit of the doubt that she may be "well-meaning", I explained how most operators of residential treatment programs are equally "well-meaning". I even when so far as to give Isabelle a label of having a Jesus complex, much like many of the operators of programs.
The members of NYRA seemed to get the message regarding how the actions of Isabelle were counter-effective.
However, the group assembled was equally concerned about the witchunt atmosphere present on Fornits and the threats of blacklisting that are regular on this website. I made the point that Isabelle was frankly not worth the hastle or the defense.
NYRA did not wish to base their decision on the threat of being blacklisted, and so a complete dissociation from CAICA was taken off the table.
They did understand the implicit condonement of referring youth to programs, by linking to CAICA, so a compromise measure was reached where NYRA would place a disclaimer on their CAICA link (similar to the one CAFETY was contemplating for Anti-WWASP at some point) that would condemn Isabelle's practice of referring youth to programs and to referrers, while providing the link to CAICA for informational purposes. They also agreed to include the links to Fornits, TAUSA, and HEAL, which had been conspicuously absent from their list of resources.
Before I left, I told Alex I would get in touch with him for the next board meeting, which he coyly responded "if I'm still on the board".
As Alex stated during the second presentation, behavioral modification is about #5 on the list of priorities for their organization. It is not an issue they have a great deal of expertise in. What NYRA does have however, is a budget, however small that it is, a sustainable structure, 501c(3) status, an office in Washington D.C, and a sensativity to the issue. These are all resources.
I know how this group by in large feels about compromises, and I know how people tend to react when they feel bullied into making decisions. I have tentatively accepted the decision of NYRA, pending your input on their decision. I believe that they get it now, and are willing to cut off the pipeline of mis-information. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that this issue was ever simply about HTML code. I'm assuming that the links will be updated by the end of the week. I look forward to hearing from all of you regarding our meeting this past weekend.
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This is unacceptable:
They did understand the implicit condonement of referring youth to programs, by linking to CAICA, so a compromise measure was reached where NYRA would place a disclaimer on their CAICA link (similar to the one CAFETY was contemplating for Anti-WWASP at some point) that would condemn Isabelle's practice of referring youth to programs and to referrers, while providing the link to CAICA for informational purposes. They also agreed to include the links to Fornits, TAUSA, and HEAL, which had been conspicuously absent from their list of resources.
As per my original suggestion, which in no way included blacklisting NYRA, I suggest we boycott CAFTEY immediately.
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Of course you do.
:roll:
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blombro-- while I don't agree with a boycott on CAFETY, I do think the organization should really reconsider who they align themselves with. Ignoring clear facts about caica and thier association to the industry is not a good decision. Caica/positive family solutions was just following in the footsteps of Dore Francis. Referring to "programs". Would Alex agree to align himself with Dore? She is a "child advocate" as well. Would CAFETY/YOUTH ACT allow Alex to remain on the BOARD if he aligned himself with Horizon Family Solutions?
Alex are you aware that caica/isabelle is aligned with pure/sue scheff and gayle degraff palmer who refer to abusive programs? Programs children have been abused and died in? The concern is not about gossip or dislike of an individual. It is about deception and underhanded practices. NYRA/CAFETY is is clearly your choice on how you run your organization. However, I recommend you take a long look at the advantages and disadvantages of associations/alignments. In this industry it is all about trust and aligning and supporting organizations/individuals that put children in programs is not a wise business decision.
Consider the blogs... Sue/Isabelle "teamwork", Whitmore Blogs supporting the Sudweeks (child and animal abusers). These are her own words.
What is so advantagous about connecting with caica/isabelle that NYRA would put their credibility and risk the credibility of cafey/youth act?
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What is your animosity at CAFETY all about? We don't associate with Izzy, and now we won't be associating with anyone who might inadvertantly help facilitate referrals. What exactly would you have us do? We don't make referrals, we recognize the futility of residential treatment. I have the same complaints about Isabelle that everyone else here does. We don't work with Isabelle, and I don't expect NYRA to be working with them in the future either (not that they had much of a working relationship with them in the past)
If the issue is the link, I refer you to www.nospank.net (http://www.nospank.net) you can start boycotting them also. So what is the issue here? What have we done to piss you off.
If the answer is to remove Alex from our board then other than asking for his resignation we have a process we need to go to, which includes bringing the issue to the rest of the board of directors. So, if you're going to give advice, then tell us what you would like for us to do, not just what we're doing wrong.
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This is another example of the fence-straddling CAFETY does. When it comes to Izzy, you have to use the "zero tolerance" policy. Cut your ties from clowns like Alex, who seems to be clueless about programs, anyway. Time to quit the "moderate" approach and sprout balls.
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If the answer is to remove Alex from our board then other than asking for his resignation we have a process we need to go to, which includes bringing the issue to the rest of the board of directors. So, if you're going to give advice, then tell us what you would like for us to do, not just what we're doing wrong.
I already told you what I think you should do. Kick him to the kerb.
But you've known about this CAICA thing and alex for quite some time haven't you? You said it yourself that you failed to follow through on it.
Animosity? No.
Disgust... YES.
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If the issue is the link, I refer you to www.nospank.net (http://www.nospank.net) you can start boycotting them also. So what is the issue here? What have we done to piss you off.
Let's not try to distract from the issue here. The issue is CAFETY, not Jordan Riak's No Spank group.
I
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What is your animosity at CAFETY all about? We don't associate with Izzy, and now we won't be associating with anyone who might inadvertantly help facilitate referrals.
Blombro- please do not read my post as having any issue with CAFETY I think they do a excellent job and my hope is they will continue to do so. I feel it is important at this time to join together against this industry. My post was simply to instill some thought provoking on the CAFETY board. I think it should be a policy for your organization that you do not associate with people who refer to the "troubled teen industry". I am sure Alex would understand the conflict of interest and either agree that he would uphold that policy or politely step aside.
Your response: "and now we won't be associating with anyone who might inadvertantly help facilitate referrals."
I think people just wanted to know where cafety/youth act stood on the issue. I think you can still have a cordial relationship with NYRA and benefit by helping each other.. however his placement on the board is what is upsetting some of the folks that are involved in the fight against this industy. Having someone on your board that is involved with someone who refers to programs or supports abusers in fact reflects on cafety. I don't think its worth it.
In my opinion Alex should understand that policy and kindly step aside for the sake of the cause and/or take another look at what he is supporting.
I guess my earlier question was to Alex, what are the advantages to aligning with caica/positive family solutions/IZehnder? This is not a menacing question. It is an honest curiosity. I have my own experiences as to why I feel she is unethical. I guess I am just interested in why an organization (NYRA) would continue to support her unless they believe that it is appropriate to place children in these types of programs. Having a place on the board of cafety doesnt sit well with folks here.
I appreciate your honesty blombro. I think everyone needed to know from cafety what will take place. If it were my organization, I would call an emergency meeting and get it taken care of asap. I wouldnt let another minute lapse.
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sorry-- can't fix the above post. Please note only the quote was written by blombro
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What is your animosity at CAFETY all about? We don't associate with Izzy, and now we won't be associating with anyone who might inadvertantly help facilitate referrals.
Blombro- please do not read my post as having any issue with CAFETY I think they do a excellent job and my hope is they will continue to do so. I feel it is important at this time to join together against this industry. My post was simply to instill some thought provoking on the CAFETY board. I think it should be a policy for your organization that you do not associate with people who refer to the "troubled teen industry". I am sure Alex would understand the conflict of interest and either agree that he would uphold that policy or politely step aside.
Your response: "and now we won't be associating with anyone who might inadvertantly help facilitate referrals."
I think people just wanted to know where cafety/youth act stood on the issue. I think you can still have a cordial relationship with NYRA and benefit by helping each other.. however his placement on the board is what is upsetting some of the folks that are involved in the fight against this industy. Having someone on your board that is involved with someone who refers to programs or supports abusers in fact reflects on cafety. I don't think its worth it.
In my opinion Alex should understand that policy and kindly step aside for the sake of the cause and/or take another look at what he is supporting.
I guess my earlier question was to Alex, what are the advantages to aligning with caica/positive family solutions/IZehnder? This is not a menacing question. It is an honest curiosity. I have my own experiences as to why I feel she is unethical. I guess I am just interested in why an organization (NYRA) would continue to support her unless they believe that it is appropriate to place children in these types of programs. Having a place on the board of cafety doesnt sit well with folks here.
I appreciate your honesty blombro. I think everyone needed to know from cafety what will take place. If it were my organization, I would call an emergency meeting and get it taken care of asap. I wouldnt let another minute lapse.
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Mr. Blombro,
I have posted to both you and to Alex; on both CAFETY and on fornits referring both of you to the Whitmore blogs; and explaining the Whitmore situation as simply and concisely as possible. I have referred both of you to the ISAC website so you could read documentation on the Sudweeks criminal history in 3 countries--information that Scheff and Isabelle Zehnder fail to disclose in these Whitmore BLOGS; which praise the Sudweeks and the defunct Whitmore Academy; while both women bash Whitmore parents and their children. I have referred both of you to documentation which corrects the errors/mis-statements on these blogs in reference to the plea bargain Cheryl Sudweeks took in regards to the Whitmore criminal case.
It has been documented that Isabelle Zehnder refers to Sue Scheff/PURE and to teen transport companies. Isbelle Zehnders admits that she does and has referred children to programs.
You have asked what advice people have for you/CAFETY?
I assume you are being sincere in this request. I would suggest that the CAFETY BOARD OF DIRECTORS ask Alex for his resignation from the CAFETY BOARD.
Alex has made his support of Isabelle Zehnder clear. As the Executive Director of NYRA, it appears that Alex will continue to support Isabelle Zehnder and CAICA; and that is his choice to do so. But, I would expect CAFETY to not link to NYRA, as long as NYRA chooses to link to CAICA. Linking to CAICA is in an indirect link to Sue Scheff and PURE in my opinion.
That would be my suggestions and advice, Mr. Blombro.
And, I certainly have no anamosity towards CAFETY, whatsoever.
I do have a problem with anyone referring children to programs; and I do not consider "lesser abusive programs that are non-wwasp" to be acceptable alternatives. Whitmore Academy was a non-wwasp program.
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Thank you for your responses.
So this issue doesn't come up again. How far along the line must the associations be cut off?
We are a member of the Youth Policy Action Center, which NYRA is a member of, which means we are linked to YPAC which has a link to NYRA.
Should we cancel our membership in YPAC?
ASTART is based out of the University of South Florida Research and Training Center. The USF RTC holds an annual conference, where a small portion of the funding is taken from residential programs. Should ASTART disassociate from the USF RTC (they are separate entities, but the director is the same of both) because of that funding source (Pressley Ridge and Boys and Girls Town). And there is a board member of the USF RTC (I happen to be one of them) who has been a director of a residential treatment program (he is also one of the fiercest advocates for community based services).
Charles Huffine, Kat, and I are members of ASTART. It should be noted that while ASTART may be indirectly receiving support from some residential programs they took NATSAP head on and gave them no quarter. Should the three of use resign from ASTART due to their connection to an entity that receives funds and support from residential programs.
T.J. Curtis is a board member of the Federation of Families for Children's Mental Health and Youth ACT, I know that while FFCMH is generally against residential treatment, their hands (or at least some of their chapters' hands) aren't clean when it comes to referring parents to some residential programs or accepting money from those programs.
Lorrin Gehring is an employee of that same company.
Mor Keshet works for an adult residential treatment program as an art therapist. Kat used to work for that same program.
Some of our board members have had what they consider positive experiences in residential treatment.
Our board is comprised of individuals who have the ability through their connections to actually reach the policy makers, the administrators, the service providers, and other advocates to press for changes in the law, or the way the system is administered.
Because of the money that flows through the residential treatment industry, all of them are connected, but not complicit, in some way to tainted money, bad practices, or both. However, in their own practice of their job they try to avoid that taint, and usually through their positions try to change the systems that they work within.
So, before I ask Alex to resign from his position I want you all to take a hard look at this list of potential conflicts of interest, and tell me if these board members are acceptable to you. If they are, I believe that this situation was an isolated incident and will be taken care of swiftly.
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Thank you for your responses.
So this issue doesn't come up again. How far along the line must the associations be cut off?
We are a member of the Youth Policy Action Center, which NYRA is a member of, which means we are linked to YPAC which has a link to NYRA.
Should we cancel our membership in YPAC?
ASTART is based out of the University of South Florida Research and Training Center. The USF RTC holds an annual conference, where a small portion of the funding is taken from residential programs. Should ASTART disassociate from the USF RTC (they are separate entities, but the director is the same of both) because of that funding source (Pressley Ridge and Boys and Girls Town). And there is a board member of the USF RTC (I happen to be one of them) who has been a director of a residential treatment program (he is also one of the fiercest advocates for community based services).
Charles Huffine, Kat, and I are members of ASTART. It should be noted that while ASTART may be indirectly receiving support from some residential programs they took NATSAP head on and gave them no quarter. Should the three of use resign from ASTART due to their connection to an entity that receives funds and support from residential programs.
T.J. Curtis is a board member of the Federation of Families for Children's Mental Health and Youth ACT, I know that while FFCMH is generally against residential treatment, their hands (or at least some of their chapters' hands) aren't clean when it comes to referring parents to some residential programs or accepting money from those programs.
Lorrin Gehring is an employee of that same company.
Mor Keshet works for an adult residential treatment program as an art therapist. Kat used to work for that same program.
Some of our board members have had what they consider positive experiences in residential treatment.
Our board is comprised of individuals who have the ability through their connections to actually reach the policy makers, the administrators, the service providers, and other advocates to press for changes in the law, or the way the system is administered.
Because of the money that flows through the residential treatment industry, all of them are connected, but not complicit, in some way to tainted money, bad practices, or both. However, in their own practice of their job they try to avoid that taint, and usually through their positions try to change the systems that they work within.
So, before I ask Alex to resign from his position I want you all to take a hard look at this list of potential conflicts of interest, and tell me if these board members are acceptable to you. If they are, I believe that this situation was an isolated incident and will be taken care of swiftly.
No, these conflicts of interest are not acceptable. What is it about "zero tolerance" you don't understand?
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I'm going to be sick. If what you say is true, it's impossible for A START to be totally unbiased. You know, I get the feeling A START's going to regret having you post this. I'm going to ask the A START members I know for some answers before I cut ties to CAFETY and A START. One thing is certain, I've got no respect for you, Brian. Maybe it's time for you to crawl back under your rock.
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Thank you for your responses.
So this issue doesn't come up again. How far along the line must the associations be cut off?
We are a member of the Youth Policy Action Center, which NYRA is a member of, which means we are linked to YPAC which has a link to NYRA.
Should we cancel our membership in YPAC?
ASTART is based out of the University of South Florida Research and Training Center. The USF RTC holds an annual conference, where a small portion of the funding is taken from residential programs. Should ASTART disassociate from the USF RTC (they are separate entities, but the director is the same of both) because of that funding source (Pressley Ridge and Boys and Girls Town). And there is a board member of the USF RTC (I happen to be one of them) who has been a director of a residential treatment program (he is also one of the fiercest advocates for community based services).
Charles Huffine, Kat, and I are members of ASTART. It should be noted that while ASTART may be indirectly receiving support from some residential programs they took NATSAP head on and gave them no quarter. Should the three of use resign from ASTART due to their connection to an entity that receives funds and support from residential programs.
T.J. Curtis is a board member of the Federation of Families for Children's Mental Health and Youth ACT, I know that while FFCMH is generally against residential treatment, their hands (or at least some of their chapters' hands) aren't clean when it comes to referring parents to some residential programs or accepting money from those programs.
Lorrin Gehring is an employee of that same company.
Mor Keshet works for an adult residential treatment program as an art therapist. Kat used to work for that same program.
Some of our board members have had what they consider positive experiences in residential treatment.
Our board is comprised of individuals who have the ability through their connections to actually reach the policy makers, the administrators, the service providers, and other advocates to press for changes in the law, or the way the system is administered.
Because of the money that flows through the residential treatment industry, all of them are connected, but not complicit, in some way to tainted money, bad practices, or both. However, in their own practice of their job they try to avoid that taint, and usually through their positions try to change the systems that they work within.
So, before I ask Alex to resign from his position I want you all to take a hard look at this list of potential conflicts of interest, and tell me if these board members are acceptable to you. If they are, I believe that this situation was an isolated incident and will be taken care of swiftly.
Wow.... brilliant post.
Apparently you need to fire most of your board of directors. Get on it.
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And this, ladies and gents, is why it's so much better being an Anonymous.
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/a/nonymous or anonymous?
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It would be fair to say that some of the members of ASTART believe in the possibility of "good residential treatment" and some members of ASTART believe that there can be no such thing. ASTART itself has no budget. Some of the members of ASTART could be in an awkward position to criticize the residential programs that sponsored the USF conference, but the organization as a whole should be free to make those critiques. I'm not so worried about ASTARTs conflict of interests, but it should be noted that they are not a "zero tolerance" organization, and neither is Youth ACT/CAFETY.
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This explains my boycott. You are making it easier and easier for me.
Thank you.
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I am only speaking for myself here, as I will have to bring this issue to the aforementioned board of directors directly before we go ahead and make it official.
Fornits has become the church of the anti-program, and those who don't follow the commandments of the church are labeled heretics who are cast out and banished. It isn't enough to do good works, it is necessary to give full worship to the fact that all programs are bad. And not only is it sinful to not think that all programs are bad, but associating with those who do is a sin in itself.
Ladies and gentlemen, Fornits is a cult, and we don't do cults. A cult, even in the name of doing good work, is still a cult. So you say that our compromises make us as bad as the programs, I say your cult-like exclusionary behavior makes you as bad as the programs.
Those of you who want to be fundamentalists to the cause, by all means do so. You do your thing and we'll do ours, and we'll see you all in Washington in September. Until then, assuming the board approves, the boycott is mutual.
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I am only speaking for myself here, as I will have to bring this issue to the aforementioned board of directors directly before we go ahead and make it official.
Fornits has become the church of the anti-program, and those who don't follow the commandments of the church are labeled heretics who are cast out and banished. It isn't enough to do good works, it is necessary to give full worship to the fact that all programs are bad. And not only is it sinful to not think that all programs are bad, but associating with those who do is a sin in itself.
Ladies and gentlemen, Fornits is a cult, and we don't do cults. A cult, even in the name of doing good work, is still a cult. So you say that our compromises make us as bad as the programs, I say your cult-like exclusionary behavior makes you as bad as the programs.
Those of you who want to be fundamentalists to the cause, by all means do so. You do your thing and we'll do ours, and we'll see you all in Washington in September. Until then, assuming the board approves, the boycott is mutual.
QFT.
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Youth advocates all over the world should be shaking with fear because TSW might boycott them if they disagree on methods and tactics.
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:lol:
Now that was actually amusing.
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Mr. Blombro,
I personally resent you referring to me, a Fornits poster -member, as a cult member. I do not belong to any CULT.
I have publicly posted my opinions; and I do not believe my opinions qualify me as any type of CULT FOLLOWER.
I don't believe I have personally attacked you, or your beliefs.
I sincerely think you are out-of-line.
Thank you in advance for your apology.
Joyce Harris
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Brian, do any of your fellow A START members know you're on here shooting from the hip and stirring up dissent? Because it's obvious without proper handling your mouth leads off before your brain. What is it with you? The people I know from A START can defend their point of view without resorting to cheap shots. And whether you're aware or not, a lot of A START members are "zero tolerance" on programs. That's why I want to check on your statements.
I've guided a lot of people toward A START, and I put a lot of faith in two members who were crucial in getting my step daughter home. What you're saying has shaken that faith up. I feel responsible for sending people needing help to the likes of you, anyway.
You talk a lot but don't seem inclined to get your hands dirty. Leave that to the cultists here, huh? I'm not interested in hearing about your connections to the bureaucrats, dude. You sound pompous.
Damn, what a day. You frost it, Blombro. I wish you'd get the pacifier out of your ass and put it where it belongs.
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And this, ladies and gents, is why it's so much better being an Anonymous.
NO, it's not. If you actually believe in what you post, stand behind it. The anonymous posts lack integrity and believability. Don't have the guts to put your name out there, don't write it to begin with. Wrong or right....
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Brian, do any of your fellow A START members know you're on here shooting from the hip and stirring up dissent? Because it's obvious without proper handling your mouth leads off before your brain. What is it with you? The people I know from A START can defend their point of view without resorting to cheap shots. And whether you're aware or not, a lot of A START members are "zero tolerance" on programs. That's why I want to check on your statements.
I've guided a lot of people toward A START, and I put a lot of faith in two members who were crucial in getting my step daughter home. What you're saying has shaken that faith up. I feel responsible for sending people needing help to the likes of you, anyway.
You refer people to A START? Sounds like you are in league with Izzy and her ilk. I have lost some respect for you.
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So Blombro, do tell us, as you're taking a middle ground position- when *is* it okay for children to be warehoused like meat animals?
Because we want to know.
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Can Blombro give a list of these "middle ground programs" that are recommended as safe, good, acceptable for children to be enrolled in?
Just a list of programs, Mr. Brian Blombro of where kids can be sent that all you Cafety folks approve of.
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Has Katherine Whitehead, KAT, had a change of heart about Mission Mountain School? Is this facility now considered a "middle ground safe" place for students, KAT? It's not WWASP, so suppose it must be OK, huh?
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Brian, do any of your fellow A START members know you're on here shooting from the hip and stirring up dissent? Because it's obvious without proper handling your mouth leads off before your brain. What is it with you? The people I know from A START can defend their point of view without resorting to cheap shots. And whether you're aware or not, a lot of A START members are "zero tolerance" on programs. That's why I want to check on your statements.
I've guided a lot of people toward A START, and I put a lot of faith in two members who were crucial in getting my step daughter home. What you're saying has shaken that faith up. I feel responsible for sending people needing help to the likes of you, anyway.
You refer people to A START? Sounds like you are in league with Izzy and her ilk. I have lost some respect for you.
Sorry. I only know they did a lot of work to get my step daughter out of a shithole. If you know more, please share it.
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Charles Huffine, Kat, and I are members of ASTART. It should be noted that while ASTART may be indirectly receiving support from some residential programs they took NATSAP head on and gave them no quarter. Should the three of use resign from ASTART due to their connection to an entity that receives funds and support from residential programs.
Not saying that anything Blombro posted is 100% true; but he states that Astart may "INDIRECTLY" receieve support from some residential programs...."
It's a huge stretch to try and put Zen Agent in the same category as Izzy.
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Zen is not a supporter of Izzy... quit beating up on the guy...
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i think it is unfair to talk shit about Zen... He has a good heart, he is one of the most dedicated people I have ever met.. He wouldnt be working in supporting Izzy... I have high respect for Zen myself. The time and efforts he puts into these issues is unlike anyone I have ever met before meeting Zen. I think that was totally uncalled for to say that about him.
Seems like today alot of shit has been started... Is it a full moon or something?? Jesus.
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Thanks Jersey gurl. This has all been kind of polite compared to some of the noise in the past. I can offer proof that Izzy has contempt for me, she's posted it...oh, wait, she took that shit down. Nevermind.
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what was this noise you speak of?
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One upset little peckerwood wrote that my step daughter would probably rather be at PV than living with a bastard like me, to paraphrase.
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fuck whoever said that... theyre just jealous bc they know your a great guy...and they are apparently not... fuckin people these days... make me sick
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I apologize Joyce and to whomever else here I offended with that comment about being part of a cult. Not everyone here shares the same mentality, but the hostility to certain points of view from some quarters is certainly cult-like.
Let's get this straight, Kat, myself, Charlie, Andy, and Marvin are very anti-program. We are zero-tolerance when it comes to programs. However, we have board members who are not, who have typically had experiences in "good" programs, and terrible programs. And as far as those compromises that were listed, all of those folks have very little control over except to quit their job or to quit their board position in protest (when they can do far more good by changing policy from the inside).
My point was to ask where does this end? To the point that Zen-agent is being called as bad as Izzy? Have we lost our minds here?
I want to shut down this industry as bad as anyone and I will not compromise my beliefs, but that doesn't mean not associating with others who have a less orthodox viewpoint. So I am insulted for Kat, when people start throwing around things like is she willing to support MMS. And we do not have a list of middle of the road programs, because we don't believe in programs. Those who hold a differing opinion we try to convince of why they're opinion is flawed.
Zen, would you have not accepted help from ASTART if you knew that their chairman in his role with a separate entity received sponsorship dollars from a well-known RTC (one of those programs that some, but not most, members of ASTART would probably consider acceptable because of their history). Does their involvement in ASTART render their whole operation compromised?
Again, I apologize for shooting from the hip so easily, and hurting anyone if I have.
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I apologize to Joyce and to whomever else here I offended with that comment about being part of a cult.
Let's get this straight, Kat, myself, Charlie, Andy, and Marvin are very anti-program. We are zero-tolerance when it comes to programs. However, we have board members who are not, who have typically had experiences in "good" programs, and terrible programs. And as far as those compromises that were listed, all of those folks have very little control over except to quit their job or to quit their board position in protest (when they can do far more good by changing policy from the inside).
My point was to ask where does this end? To the point that Zen-agent is being called as bad as Izzy? Have we lost our minds here?
I want to shut down this industry as bad as anyone and I will not compromise my beliefs, but that doesn't mean not associating with others who have a less orthodox viewpoint. So I am insulted for Kat, when people start throwing around things like is she willing to support MMS. And we do not have a list of middle of the road programs, because we don't believe in programs. Those who hold a differing opinion we try to convince of why they're opinion is flawed.
Zen, would you have not accepted help from ASTART if you knew that their chairman in his role with a separate entity received sponsorship dollars from a well-known RTC (one of those programs that some, but not most, members of ASTART would probably consider acceptable because of their history). Does their involvement in ASTART render their whole operation compromised?
Again, I apologize for shooting from the hip so easily, and hurting anyone if I have.
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I apologize Joyce and to whomever else here I offended with that comment about being part of a cult. Not everyone here shares the same mentality, but the hostility to certain points of view from some quarters is certainly cult-like.
Let's get this straight, Kat, myself, Charlie, Andy, and Marvin are very anti-program. We are zero-tolerance when it comes to programs. However, we have board members who are not, who have typically had experiences in "good" programs, and terrible programs. And as far as those compromises that were listed, all of those folks have very little control over except to quit their job or to quit their board position in protest (when they can do far more good by changing policy from the inside).
My point was to ask where does this end? To the point that Zen-agent is being called as bad as Izzy? Have we lost our minds here?
I want to shut down this industry as bad as anyone and I will not compromise my beliefs, but that doesn't mean not associating with others who have a less orthodox viewpoint. So I am insulted for Kat, when people start throwing around things like is she willing to support MMS. And we do not have a list of middle of the road programs, because we don't believe in programs. Those who hold a differing opinion we try to convince of why they're opinion is flawed.
Zen, would you have not accepted help from ASTART if you knew that their chairman in his role with a separate entity received sponsorship dollars from a well-known RTC (one of those programs that some, but not most, members of ASTART would probably consider acceptable because of their history). Does their involvement in ASTART render their whole operation compromised?
Again, I apologize for shooting from the hip so easily, and hurting anyone if I have.
qft
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Ladies and gentlemen, Fornits is a cult, and we don't do cults. A cult, even in the name of doing good work, is still a cult. So you say that our compromises make us as bad as the programs, I say your cult-like exclusionary behavior makes you as bad as the programs.
For those of us who did survive real cults, this statement is particularly hateful.
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I apologize to Joyce and to whomever else here I offended with that comment about being part of a cult.
Let's get this straight, Kat, myself, Charlie, Andy, and Marvin are very anti-program. We are zero-tolerance when it comes to programs. However, we have board members who are not, who have typically had experiences in "good" programs, and terrible programs. And as far as those compromises that were listed, all of those folks have very little control over except to quit their job or to quit their board position in protest (when they can do far more good by changing policy from the inside).
My point was to ask where does this end? To the point that Zen-agent is being called as bad as Izzy? Have we lost our minds here?
I want to shut down this industry as bad as anyone and I will not compromise my beliefs, but that doesn't mean not associating with others who have a less orthodox viewpoint. So I am insulted for Kat, when people start throwing around things like is she willing to support MMS. And we do not have a list of middle of the road programs, because we don't believe in programs. Those who hold a differing opinion we try to convince of why they're opinion is flawed.
Zen, would you have not accepted help from ASTART if you knew that their chairman in his role with a separate entity received sponsorship dollars from a well-known RTC (one of those programs that some, but not most, members of ASTART would probably consider acceptable because of their history). Does their involvement in ASTART render their whole operation compromised?
Again, I apologize for shooting from the hip so easily, and hurting anyone if I have.
We were aware of wolves in sheep's clothing, and we would have accepted help from questionable sources - we wouldn't send other people needing help to them, though.
An A START member and I were talking about ethics yesterday, mainly about Michael Moore's lack of ethics. Brian, you've engaged in finger-pointing, "what about them" dodging and ducking. If you really have all these important connections, CAFETY needs to set an example. Don't worry about Jordan, clean your own house first.
I still support A START until I find out more, but I think they should sever ties to CAFETY.
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Brain, when have you ever seen FORNITS supporting Jordan Riak, NO-SPANK? You have seen Fornits posters rally around; and supporting CAFETY from day one!
This is not a complicated issue, Brian Blombro.
Fornits posters DO NOT SUPPORT PROGRAMS, PERIOD!
You well know that; and anyone who reads, or posts on Fornits knows that.
And it is rather clear that the majority of Fornits posters do not support Isabelle Zehner / CAICA for one simple reason: Zehnder has always supported Sue Scheff /PURE who refers children to unregulated programs. Now, it has been proven by Zehnder's own words that she refers childrenn to unregulated programs and transport companies.
CAFETY does not link to, or support Zehnder/CAICA.
CAFETY does not link to, or support Scheff/PURE.
CAFETY link to CAICA is through NYRA.
Brian, according to your own posting--the majority of CAFETY's Board Members appear to adhere to a policy of "zero tolerance."
That is how it should be for an ADVOCACY website for children in this industry, IMO---ZERO TOLERANCE.
There is no place for "lesser abusive programs" in an Advocacy website.
CAFETY needs to take an honest ZERO TOLERANCE stand; and clean up that BOARD.
And yes, your apology was correct: You were cruel; You were wrong; and You were an ass.
You need to think before you click that SEND BUTTON.
If you were taking it upon yourself to be speaking for me, as a member of this CAFETY BOARD over there, I'd ask you to kindly STFU.
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This all ties into the fact that Brian has yet to stop trying to shift the focus away from CAFETY. Rather than coming up with a comprehensive plan to free CAFETY of its dangerous middle ground accommodations he instead tries to confront others.
The problem that exists is CAFETY's relationship with the NYRA.
Solve that first then worry about everything else later. If ASTART needs to clean out their house then that matter is something entirely different.
Likewise so is the link on nospank.
Likewise so is the toothfairy leaving a 500 won coin under my pillow.
It goes on and on.. and Brian still has yet to take a firm stand within his own organization. He would rather call us cultist, which he did apologize for, and point fingers everywhere else in hopes of confusing the issue.
AGAIN brian.. The problem is CAFETY's relationship with the NYRA. I don't really give a shit who you have on your board of directors. If you all have some house cleaning to do to get rid of the middle ground taint then stop whining on fornits and get of your ass and go do it.
But do it after you solve the issue with the NYRA. As far as I am concerned I really don't give to pound of dried monkey shit what CAFETY does. It's pretty clear to me that my wise decisions made for this decade just doubled when I made sure I never official joined CAFETY.
In the bigger picture people we are seeing whats happens when advocates turn into advocoidiots.
They started with the best of intentions and now...........
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Cults:
Are abusive.
Practice sleep deprivation.
Limit food intake.
Prevent communication with anyone not in cult.
Use coercion tactics that may include:
- phsyical intimidation
- sexual harassment or assault
- and myriad psychological/emotional attacks
Prevent access to medical treatment and education.
Cut off financial support so as to create dependance.
Restrict or prohibit access to reading materials.
etc.
etc.
etc.
Fornits is not a cult.
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http://http://img3.pimp-my-profile.com/i56/9/7/30/bn_21b3a6052c.png
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I agree that CAFETY should not link to NYRA, who supports CAICA and PURE. And NYRA needs to get their facts straight. And yes folks, I was the one who said they were all linked, and no one believed me! Got some of you pissed off at me, and now look.
You'd be surprised what you find if you just spend a little time digging up dirt. And I, for one, am not done digging. I have a personal interest in bringing everyone out of the closet. So watch out.
SHAME on CAFETY! and NYRA!
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Run mofos the anons are after you!!!!
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I agree that CAFETY should not link to NYRA, who supports CAICA and PURE. And NYRA needs to get their facts straight. And yes folks, I was the one who said they were all linked, and no one believed me! Got some of you pissed off at me, and now look.
You'd be surprised what you find if you just spend a little time digging up dirt. And I, for one, am not done digging. I have a personal interest in bringing everyone who links/refers, and gets kickbacks, out of the closet. So watch out. Oh, and maybe we should be keeping a really close eye on NYRA. I want to know just what interest do they have by aligning themselves to CAICA and PURE, and why CAFETY will remain true to NYRA.
SHAME on CAFETY! and NYRA!
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There is a fine line between digging up dirt and smearing a perfectly legitimate and well meaning organization.
Finding a link to a site that links to another site that you don't like is not digging up dirt. Boycotting an organization that has done nothing but try to help is not being productive, it's being petty and it creates waves where none need exist.
Everyone has associations, and we could all be questioned if our lives were made public. This is not helpful and it speaks to nothing except paranoia.
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I bet they will be cheering at the next NATSAP meeting, with comments like "the groups that have been calling for regulation of our programs seem to have dissipated most of their energy fighting among themselves."
Meanwhile, the NATSAP lobbying budget grows and so do the programs. When the annoying youth advocacy movement removes itself as a roadblock, legislators and congressmen will have that much less of a reason to pay any attention to this industry or to care that it is unregulated.
Then it's smooth sailing. This is a huge growth business, and the growth and profit will be that much greater without regulations or accountability.
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I bet they will be cheering at the next NATSAP meeting, with comments like "the groups that have been calling for regulation of our programs seem to have dissipated most of their energy fighting among themselves."
Meanwhile, the NATSAP lobbying budget grows and so do the programs. When the annoying youth advocacy movement removes itself as a roadblock, legislators and congressmen will have that much less of a reason to pay any attention to this industry or to care that it is unregulated.
Then it's smooth sailing. This is a huge growth business, and the growth and profit will be that much greater without regulations or accountability.
Infighting they all could have avoiding if they had grown a fucking pair and done what they were supposed to a few months ago in regards to Isabelle.
Don't worry though..
groups like Heal and Tausa and Isac aren't a bunch of wankers. Where the middle ground accomodating sleaze fail those who are truly dedicated to freeing every single kid from these shit pits will prevail.
And they won't ever break the faith doing it in the process.
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I bet they will be cheering at the next NATSAP meeting, with comments like "the groups that have been calling for regulation of our programs seem to have dissipated most of their energy fighting among themselves."
Meanwhile, the NATSAP lobbying budget grows and so do the programs. When the annoying youth advocacy movement removes itself as a roadblock, legislators and congressmen will have that much less of a reason to pay any attention to this industry or to care that it is unregulated.
Then it's smooth sailing. This is a huge growth business, and the growth and profit will be that much greater without regulations or accountability.
They won't have anything to celebrate if you cut your ties to Izzy...why is that such a difficult task? If you're embarrassed about it, get over it and just fix it. Damn, don't turn it into a fucking drama.
You want unity? Clean up and join up, CAFETY's starting to look like the odd man out. Quit yer bitchin' and come correct.
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CAFERTY doesn't link to Isabelle/CAICA anyway.
So, what's the big deal about CAFETY cutting loose from NYRA?
Caferty needs to clean up it's act; so it meets qualifications to join the REFERRAL FREE ZONE. That's what Caferty needs to do IMO.
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a bunch of wankers
insert emoticon here :rofl:
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a bunch of wankers
insert emoticon here :rofl:
OK
(http://http://www.pushupstairs.com/images/emoticon/blehnet/penis.gif)
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:wave: I'll bet you wish you had a hand. Don't ask, either, I'm not touching it.
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Has anyone contacted Shelby at ISAC and asked her to add CAFETY to the referral and partners watch list? It might encourage CAFETY to shake off their torpor. How long does it take them to make a decision?
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One one-thousand, Two one-thousand, Three one-thousand, Four.........
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Counting won't help. I said I wouldn't do this, but...
(http://http://img3.pimp-my-profile.com/i56/9/7/30/bn_21b3a6052c.png)
So be it. Let CAFETY be thickheaded.
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Delete Account.
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Now that's what I am talking about!
I am glad someone is making things clear ! :tup:
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So, please can someone tell me when Cafety accepted donations from the teen help business?
Can someone else tell me why it automatically makes a whole organization bad if they happened to have linked to another organization that happens to link to someone nobody likes?
I can understand disagreeing with their decision, but where is the venom coming from?
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ASTART is not an arm of cafety ---- this is false information
Blombro merely said that Kat used to work for an ADULT rtc program, and it is immediately assumed now that she can't be trusted? This is ridiculous crap.
HEAL has not united the survivor community. Every single dividing issue I can remember has come up because of HEAL.
COINTELPRO? This has to be one of the most paranoid statements I've heard in a long time.
I'm pretty sure cafety does not receive funding from ASTART. If you believe so, please state why.
I'm also pretty sure no program directors are members of A START or CAFETY. Please state why you believe so.
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I hate all of these stupid scumfuck organizations, and I hate you!
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have fun with that
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Dear Fornits Community,
HEAL is working on legislation/initatives to give teens more authority in their lives. We are also honest and dedicated to teen liberty. HEAL has never and will never advocate for, accept donations from (unlike CAFETY/CAICA), or work within (unlike CAFETY/CAICA) the teen "help" industry. We will not claim to be for survivors while advertising and making money off referrals (unlike antiwwasp.com/Kevin August), nor will we hide important information from you to forward some hidden and nefarious agenda (unlike CAFETY, CAICA, Kevin August).
HEAL does and will continue to unite the survivor community. HEAL does and will continue to fight the entire teen "help" industry. HEAL does and will continue to connect survivors with legal help, media resources, and social networks of survivors from the same/similar programs to help heal our community. And, HEAL does and will continue to work primarily on teen liberty issues.
HEAL has been accused of diversified focus. However, we might all agree that inviting and encouraging environmentalists, human rights activists, and animal welfare/rights activists to learn about HEAL's primary campaigns is a great way to get activists from every corner involved in shutting down the teen "help" industry. And, it is working! What better way to get a diverse community united on any issue then to acknowledge and support the other areas they are passionate about?
HEAL is coordinated by survivors across the country. Our national/HQ/Seattle Coordinator is a survivor of Provo Canyon School (me, Angela). Our CA Coordinator is also a survivor of Provo Canyon School. Our NJ Coordinator is a survivor of Three Springs and SLS Health (a program for adults). Our IL Coordinator is a survivor of Turning Winds. Our NY Coordinator is a survivor of 2 Aspen Ed. Group Programs, and our MS Coordinator is a survivor of Bethel Boys Academy. We understand what the problem is and how to go about changing the laws and helping kids.
HEAL has saved hundreds of kids from programs by helping non-custodial parents get custody and pull their children from programs, by persuading legal guardians/parents to pull their children from programs, and persuading legal guardians/parents not to send their child to an RTC/Boot Camp/etc.
We are disgusted by the actions and hypocrisy (COINTELPRO garbage) that CAFETY, CAICA, and Kevin August have been pulling in this community. HEAL will not and does not work with CAFETY, CAICA, or Kevin August. HEAL refuses to work with Kat Whitehead (a former employee of an RTC for adults). HEAL refuses to work with Brian Lombrowski (who admitted to sleeping with a "source" while he was touring Summit, and admits that ASTART is an arm of CAFETY and that ASTART/CAFETY have former program directors on their board and that they receive funding from the teen "help" industry via ASTART), and we think it is high time these hypocrites and shills for the teen "help" industry were exposed for what they are.
BOYCOTT CAFETY!!! BOYCOTT CAICA!!! BOYCOTT Kevin August and antiwwasp.com!!! And, BOYCOTT anyone or any organization who advertises for the teen help industry, refers/works with CAICA/CAFETY, and get these hypocrites out of our community. We've been through enough!!!
To learn more and get involved with HEAL, visit: http://www.heal-online.org (http://www.heal-online.org). :flame: 8-)
In Solidarity,
Angela,
Does your organization believe in any kind of Residential Treatment? Adult, mental health, community based? I am not very informed regarding these organizations. I would like to know where Heal stands on this issue.
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Hello all, My name is Chip Sinton and I'm a member of NYRA. I sympathize with what you're doing and what you're attempting to accomplish. Both times i've run for Board of Directors in NYRA I've made Behavior Modification Facilities a major campaigning point. I personally think NYRA should be more proactive about these atrocities, but we are trying and trying hard. Bringing to light an ugly truth can be harder than it seems on a web forum though.
I've come here though because i read through this thread and i am frankly appalled. CAFETY is an organization that i empathize with and beleive in its potential for good, but this frankly ridiculous.
1) The first post of this thread, about the annual meeting, the complaining and insinuation that the Annual Meeting was somehow a failure because it was attended by kids is ridiculous. One main reason the industry can continue to grow and suceed is that soceity views teens as deplorable almost-peoples instead of as actual people. We as a nation get worked up over Gitmo when hundreds of Gitmos are going on, but for teens. Its appalling that your opinion of kids would be as event ruining objects.
2) Alexander Koroknay-Palicz is no clown. He may have a sense of humor, a trait seemingly lacking in some here(i won't point fingers, since you guys seem to dislike that) but he is no clown. He is one of the hardest working people in our community. To kick him off your board would be to lose a valueable asset to your fledgling org, a stabilizing assest you could probably use.
3)It is spelled curb. "kick him to the CURB". Kerb isn't even internetspeak, its just dumb
4)You do realize that you're argueing over linking to a link. There are so many better things you could be doing with your time. Do you have a plan on how to capitalize on Mitt Romney running his campaign on child torture blood money? Or how to make the Troubled Teen Industry an issue this coming election? Or is web links and a puritanical membership and board really more important?
5)I don't think you realize the stakes here. Its all linked together. We're the underdogs here. We're splintered from soceity by conditioning and oppression, we're constrainted by cash when fighting an entity that has funds enough to buy off mayors and governors. What we don't need is to break apart as a community, to focus our efforts on making each other weaker. It was said earlier that NYRA had a great structure, a budget, an office. We got all these things by working our way up, by having great intiative, promise, and leadership. At this stage, all organizations need to take advantage of each other and all resources available. It would seem Isebelle made a mistake, but her org still has great information and does good work. To ignore and osctracize people who don't is stupid. NYRA will continue linking to CAICA because it is a good source of information on a little known topic. The organization does productive work, so we ally ourselves. We're in a struggle, and it isn't against each other. Division is suicidal. Tolerance, empathy, understanding is needed. Extremeism, squabbling and zero tolerance is regressive in a community that can't afford anything but progress. NYRA has a position against Zero Tolerance because it is ridiculous. Applied in Schools, by Parents, or in this forum, it is still retarded. We need to work together, not apart.
I urge you to not make a mistake based on personal biases that will direly effect your potential and this community's potential.
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RTC's are not a priority with NYRA, you made that clear. I believe lowering the drinking age is of more concern.
Don't attack people over spelling. I won't attack you for typing "assest" instead of "asset".
Why are we suddenly the problem? We're asking that your intentions be clear and that you do not in any way support the industry. That's not bias. The link is a major issue and damages your credibility. Don't try to downplay it. If the link is such a minor detail, get rid of it and post a clear statement on your position.
NYRA and CAFETY are using program tactics to defend themselves, and I find it disgusting. This is your problem, don't try to shift the onus onto people who have made their intentions clear and conflict-free.
You misunderstand the use of "zero tolerance" here: it applies to the industry, and to stop the industry you cannot have ties to it.
Do you understand it a little better now?
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Mr. Chip Sinton,
I don't consider Alexander Koroknay-Palicz to be a "clown" at all. Clowns make people laugh.
Alex posted here, and he stated that he supports Isabelle Zehnder, CAICA.
You need to read the Whitmore Blog written by Isabelle Zehnder, in which she supports the defunct Whitmore Academy; and praises the owners, the Sudweeks who have broken laws in 3 countries--Canada, Mexico and the US. This Whitmore Blog is filled with lies, and it bashs parents and children who were victims at this abusive facility.
This blog is filled with errors about Cheryl Sudweeks plea bargain in the Whitmore criminal case.
Isabelle Zehnder admits that she refers children to programs; and her own emails show that she refers children to Sue Scheff/PURE and to teen transport companies.
Alex supports Zehnder/CAICA; who in turn supports and refers to Sue Scheff/PURE. You may want to read the WWASP vs PURE transcripts if you are not familiar with Sue Scheff/PURE.
So you don't need to explain who your friend, Alex is. He explained himself clearly in his lengthy post here on fornits. No one here needs you to play GRAMMAR TEACHER or SPELL CHECKER, either.
As stated, it is about ZERO TOLERANCE. Referring children to programs is not acceptable. Trying to say referring a child to "a program that is less abusive than a WWASP program" is not acceptable. NO PROGRAM IS ACCEPTABLE.
CAFETY linking to NYRA is not acceptable.
Your attitude is not all that acceptablel, either IMO.
No one is on your website annoying you, are they?
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Chip does make some good points even if his lexicon regarding the English language is off base. Kerb is the British version of the word Curb.
None the less..
Chip you are right and wrong all at the same time. Why are you being so stubborn about a simple link? It would take about 15 keystrokes to remove the thing off your page.
And seriously.. ISAC and HEAL provide much better sources of information, that is all properly cited and referenced.
I agree unity is crucial. I'll will be unified with organizations I can trust though. I believe Heal, ISAC, and TAUSA have a great deal more potential to make change.
This is about Solidarity with those who don't turn a blind eye towards towards things like CAICA.
Solidarity with those who will not betray the faith.
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I don't think you understand what the term "solidarity" means as you're fighting to boycott an organization that is merely trying to pull the interests of organizations--regardless of how they are ran--toward a pro-youth rights position.
Chip has it absolutely right: YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME. Do you know how many donations you could've solicited or blog entries you could've written with the time you've wasted bitching about a link?
This isn't a fucking clique. You disgrace the entire youth rights movement by playing petty games and watering down our cause.
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What cause is that? The one where you support kids getting sent to "Less Abusive" programs?
This is progress. Carving away the diseased flesh from the movement will only make it healthier.
Good riddance to the likes of CAFETY and the NYRA if they want to fall to the wayside over a damn link.
It is their choice.
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Are you as naive as you sound?
We are already a movement that is moving backwards. You want to divide the people working for the same ultimate goals because you don't agree with some obscure blog someone wrote and NYRA has a link you don't like?
Listen up: not all activists are perfect and the same goes for their organizations. You can either choose to hurt the movement by playing games rather than doing actual work OR you can accept that some organizations AREN'T RAN WELL and make the best of it. Most of us who care about youth rights would prefer the latter to losing PRECIOUS manpower, which is plenty scarce already.
It is disconcerting how you appear to generate motivation through the negativity this constant witch-hunt within your peers produces.
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Are you as naive as you sound?
We are already a movement that is moving backwards. You want to divide the people working for the same ultimate goals because you don't agree with some obscure blog someone wrote and NYRA has a link you don't like?
Listen up: not all activists are perfect and the same goes for their organizations. You can either choose to hurt the movement by playing games rather than doing actual work OR you can accept that some organizations AREN'T RAN WELL and make the best of it. Most of us who care about youth rights would prefer the latter to losing PRECIOUS manpower, which is plenty scarce already.
It is disconcerting how you appear to generate motivation through the negativity this constant witch-hunt within your peers produces.
Interesting, but so chock full of shit it I needed to put on knee boots just to read it.
That blog isn't obscure to the kids and parents affected by Whitmore. The pain and suffering inflicted on those families will never be undone in this lifetime. Isabelle Zehender, metaphorically, open hand slapped those people in the face repeatedly. Even worst the people targeted couldn't even really respond due to various legal restrictions.
Somethings you can't ever compromise on. That blog and that woman aren't something I will ever compromise on. You want to make that compromise you go right ahead.
You keep saying its just one link. IT is just one LINK.
Then remove the damn thing .
If its just one link.
The ball is in your court. You won't get any of us to slap around any Whitmore survivors via our acceptance of CAICA. NOR will you find many of us willing to minimize the hurt and suffering created by that vile document posted by Isabelle Zehneder, and likewise the other one posted by here equally reprehensible crony Sue Scheff.
Death before dishonor applies here.
And NO fucking way I'll Dishonor the victims of Whitmore.
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COINTELPRO? This has to be one of the most paranoid statements I've heard in a long time.
Quoted for embarrassment...
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:18 am Post subject:
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Swarmy, you've referred to this as a minor link issue. Let's see how "minor" a link is:
I caught my kid smoking grass, I think he's an addict, I go to the internet for help.
For some reason, I get to the low-traffic CAFETY first.
CAFETY-->NYRA-->CAICA-->PURE = a kid placed in a program.
That's a rather short route. Rethink your position.
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Delete Account.
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Delete Account.
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I would think going public with anything you feel is dangerous would be wise. Holding information for future use or blackmailing does not seem to be productive.
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i think it is unfair to talk shit about Zen... He has a good heart, he is one of the most dedicated people I have ever met.. He wouldnt be working in supporting Izzy... I have high respect for Zen myself. The time and efforts he puts into these issues is unlike anyone I have ever met before meeting Zen. I think that was totally uncalled for to say that about him.
Seems like today alot of shit has been started... Is it a full moon or something?? Jesus.
And yet everyone else wants to jump on everyone else for one thing. They could all have really good hearts, and I bet if you met most people on here, they would be really good people (well some just sound like middle aged men trying to impress their kid's friends... but other than that...). The argument SettleForNothingLess uses is in direct contrast to the argument ZenAgent, Psy and Ts Waygookin are using. Insults are slung around here as if we are in a hormone filled middle school where the most ignorant rants are awarded the most attention.
Taking from SettleForNothingLess's argument in quotes, it's totally uncalled for to say these things about people who besides the one argument you are completely in agreement with. ZenAgent even went so far as to say he really liked Cafety and ASTART, before the link issue. And now, they seem to be treated as targets to practice the latest cursing slang.
btw, zero tolerance is practiced in our schools too. It ends up with a kid having a pocket knife not being able to go to school for a whole year because of expulsion. Not much gained there.
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Impress their kids friends? Really, this is not a fucking game.
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i think it is unfair to talk shit about Zen... He has a good heart, he is one of the most dedicated people I have ever met.. He wouldnt be working in supporting Izzy... I have high respect for Zen myself. The time and efforts he puts into these issues is unlike anyone I have ever met before meeting Zen. I think that was totally uncalled for to say that about him.
Seems like today alot of shit has been started... Is it a full moon or something?? Jesus.
And yet everyone else wants to jump on everyone else for one thing. They could all have really good hearts, and I bet if you met most people on here, they would be really good people (well some just sound like middle aged men trying to impress their kid's friends... but other than that...). The argument SettleForNothingLess uses is in direct contrast to the argument ZenAgent, Psy and Ts Waygookin are using. Insults are slung around here as if we are in a hormone filled middle school where the most ignorant rants are awarded the most attention.
Taking from SettleForNothingLess's argument in quotes, it's totally uncalled for to say these things about people who besides the one argument you are completely in agreement with. ZenAgent even went so far as to say he really liked Cafety and ASTART, before the link issue. And now, they seem to be treated as targets to practice the latest cursing slang.
btw, zero tolerance is practiced in our schools too. It ends up with a kid having a pocket knife not being able to go to school for a whole year because of expulsion. Not much gained there.
I guess I'm the middle-aged guy you're referring to? My kid doesn't have any friends on here. Sorry if the adult language offends you. Did you not read the warning before entering? You have full liberty to post what you want...you also have the ability to leave if what you read offends you, so don't whine about it. At least we're upfront with our insults, not snide and dismissive.
I still have respect for A START. If you're really with CAFETY, your the reason I'm going to turn my back on them. You're too arrogant and not concerned with listening to what anyone is saying. You've done nothing but whine about the language, insult me for being 41, and basically play the agitator. If you're the image CAFETY wants to project, CAFETY's in need of a makeover.
I'm going to get in touch with Brian and see what can be done. I've been told he may not have a clear understanding of Izzy's antics. Maybe Brian can gag you, in the interest of mending relations. There was a poster on here named the who, you really have his tendencies. That's the most obscene insult I've thrown at you, Swarmy.
Let me run it by you again: your connection to CAICA, which is more direct than you want to admit, makes you unethical. It ties you to escort services and abusive programs like the Whitmore. Psy wasn't threatening you, he was offering you a clue, but you're too interested in picking fights to pay attention. Keep to your course, I'll do my best to make sure A START gets the idea about what's going on, and CAFETY might be dangling in the wind without the support of the people who do the actual work, not hang out at film premiers.
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Really, this is not a fucking game.
I think it'd be more effective if we did treat it as a fucking game. The person to close the most programs the fastest wins.
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Swarmy, would you simply tell us why you think NYRA's link to CAICA is appropriate and why we're overreacting? Obviously you still don't see a problem, even though it's angering a lot of people. Do you support the use of escort services? Would you defend someone who threw a kid down a flight of stairs? Can you in good conscience call yourself ethical and maintain a connection with people who have engaged in the above?
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I think you might be mixing up guest comments.
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How many more of these guys are going to come over and keep mauling Caferty's rep?
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Why would you assume that someone that doesn't take your position is implicitly tied to cafety?
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Does it really matter?
nope.
Damage is still being done to caferty.
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I think you might be mixing up guest comments.
Yeah, are you guys taking shifts as the infernal guest?
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Psy's site has a link to natsap
Also there is a link to cafety, which links to nyra, which links to caica.
Teenliberty.org has links to Fox news. Which I think we can agree helped to enable the AGs who haven't taken this issue up.
Helpatanycost.com links to cafety.
Nospank.net links to caica.
Tbfight.com links to cafety and antiwwasp and wwasp.
Teenhelpindusty.com links to all these sites.
The referral free zone links to helpatanycost.com which links to cafety which links to nyra which links to caica.
Zero Tolerance. Get em all.
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ZenAgent even went so far as to say he really liked Cafety and ASTART, before the link issue. And now, they seem to be treated as targets to practice the latest cursing slang.
A START I spoke with, no problems there. CAFETY is merde. So...after a year of being okay with CAFETY, you think I randomly started swinging on them? Doesn't it seem apparent the "link issue" is a big deal, maybe not to you, but to people who want to see this movement remain ethical?
What is your deal with programs, are you a survivor? Parent? Or is this purely academic to you? If all you do is refer to them, I can see why this seems like a non-issue.
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I went to wwasp programs as a teen.
Please understand I don't like seeing the infighting. That's the sole reason for me posting. I was hoping to try and clear some things up and come to a common ground. I failed. I'll stop posting now.
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Yep, but don't let it get you down.
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Psy's site has a link to natsap
Bullshit. In the very beginning, Psy's site got random context-related ads for programs until he changed Teen to Te.en, or maybe he paid for an ad-free site. He got some flak for those ads, but he quickly took steps to keep them off his site.
But your point about zero tolerance is well taken. Zero tolerance is such a programmie idea and it sucks no matter where it's applied.
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Forget trying to herd cats.
Grab some domains and make some sites of your own instead.
On the Internet, one person or a handful of people can be MANY times more powerful than any group, especially if the group is too busy masturbating in committee to get anything done.
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Psy's site has a link to natsap
Bullshit. In the very beginning, Psy's site got random context-related ads for programs until he changed Teen to Te.en, or maybe he paid for an ad-free site. He got some flak for those ads, but he quickly took steps to keep them off his site.
But your point about zero tolerance is well taken. Zero tolerance is such a programmie idea and it sucks no matter where it's applied.
http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/licensing.html (http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/licensing.html)
check it out, it has links to natsap. Fortunately they are only for informational purposes, but zero tolerance is where I thought we were at.
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Oh I thought you meant his strugglingppl site. Yeah, he has links to NATSAP and IECA on his Benchmark site -- seems like that's there to prove his point about the mis-information NATSAP has about Benchmark being licensed.
But you're right, the zero tolerance zealots will probably be up in arms about this. Fuck zero tolerance. Fuck programmie thinking.
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You don't see the irony in us using the term "zero tolerance"? You guys are dense.
A lot of people on here are the victims of zero tolerance.
It's ironic. Quit whining. Quit bitching about infighting. Worry about inbreeding. Cut your ties to people who push escort services and sick programs.
Mewling cats.
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man, you just can't stop.
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This seems like a rerun of the defenders of Izzy last week.
How many times do fornits people have to tell you .....ditch the fat cat and sue sue *who is being sued, and get rid of your link to Caica.
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Psy's site has a link to natsap
go to the site. The logo for natsap brings you the area of his site where he discusses natsap (nutsack.. giggle giggle-- still in my head everytime I see it). Anyway, I don't see a link that takes you to the site.. but I am tired. Please point to the link.
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Psy's site has a link to natsap
go to the site. The logo for natsap brings you the area of his site where he discusses natsap (nutsack.. giggle giggle-- still in my head everytime I see it). Anyway, I don't see a link that takes you to the site.. but I am tired. Please point to the link.
Ya. and I have one for the IECA too... it's a broken link for now, but I plan to devote a page to IECA as well eventually. I don't think any page links to natsap other than maybe a link to Benchmark's natsap listing... clicking on the natsap logo brings you to the faq's section on NATSAP. At some point, natsap will probably ask me to take their logo off, at which point I will replace it with a clever parody.
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man, you just can't stop.
Man, I can say worse about you. Is it your ego, or are you too financially mired in the industry to pull the Izzy plug? You know it's wrong. So why are you on here, not offering any solid answers, just provoking people? Do you have a reason for this, or are you out to totally trash CAFETY? Mission accomplished, if that was your plan.
If you don't like what I've said to you, leave. You do have an option. You don't have to hang out here and offer up bland insults and then become indignant when people shoot back. You don't seem to be garnering any support, so I can only assume all this has to do with your obviously eggshell-thin ego.
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excuse me but brian lombrowski did not sleep with a "source" from summit when he was touring Summit
hes dating someone from summit, me but that was after i was out of summit and excuse me but that angers the shit out of me
haven't i suffered enough abuse that people will not say anything assholish about me?
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excuse me but brian lombrowski did not sleep with a "source" from summit when he was touring Summit
hes dating someone from summit, me but that was after i was out of summit and excuse me but that angers the shit out of me
haven't i suffered enough abuse that people will not say anything assholish about me?
No one knows who you are If you go looking for trouble, it will often find you first and be unpleasant. This is old, old business, you're not doing yourself or Brian any good by digging it up.
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excuse me but brian lombrowski did not sleep with a "source" from summit when he was touring Summit
hes dating someone from summit, me but that was after i was out of summit and excuse me but that angers the shit out of me
haven't i suffered enough abuse that people will not say anything assholish about me?
No one knows who you are If you go looking for trouble, it will often find you first and be unpleasant. This is old, old business, you're not doing yourself or Brian any good by digging it up.
Very true, and I think if you poke around in the mix of things you will find that the major contenders in this mess have said their piece to each other in public and moved on. At least that is what I gather happened. I'd ask Brian about the convo he had with the one fellow at the GAO hearing about the cafety/nyra mess.
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From where I sit, cafety is a good group. The issue that people have with them seems bizarrely petty, in the same way the sue scheff's issue with the TB documentary is bizarrely petty, and stems more from personality failings and possible secret financial agendas, more than anything else.
The weird bullying of cafety members and ostracizing of cafety as a group seems, fittingly, to come from people who used to be employees of programs, or are program parents. I can’t stand that the tactics of program are self righteously used by program parents and employees against actual survivors, who don’t do what they’re told.
If someone (this fellow alex) has an informative link on his own private website, to a site that is owned by someone who may be corrupt, does not mean that he is corrupt or that the agency that he, along with many many others, belong to is corrupt. From what I read, cafety is against “orderingâ€
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I could say the same thing about the republican party.
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One thing is certain, I've got no respect for you, Brian. Maybe it's time for you to crawl back under your rock.
Why, getting lonely? Seriously, you're a fucking program parent, and you're gonna bully a real survivor until they do whatever you say?
How about antigen letting the who post here, anon? She an unrespectable slut? Get over yourself. You can’t force people to do what you want when you want. This fellow doesn't do precisely what you say, but devotes himself to getting youth civil rights and establishing rules so that kids can't be beaten to death in the state of florida, and have that be considered part of the inevitable process of "helping" youth. You’re a friggin joke. Look beyond yourself and your petty squabbling narcissism.
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Slit yer mudder's tit, sir!
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One thing is certain, I've got no respect for you, Brian. Maybe it's time for you to crawl back under your rock.
Why, getting lonely? Seriously, you're a fucking program parent, and you're gonna bully a real survivor until they do whatever you say?
How about antigen letting the who post here, anon? She an unrespectable slut? Get over yourself. You can’t force people to do what you want when you want. This fellow doesn't do precisely what you say, but devotes himself to getting youth civil rights and establishing rules so that kids can't be beaten to death in the state of florida, and have that be considered part of the inevitable process of "helping" youth. You’re a friggin joke. Look beyond yourself and your petty squabbling narcissism.
You're a day late and a dollar short. This was over with a long time ago. What is your problem? When was this going on, August? No one is squabbling anymore except you. I apologized to Brian, so what's your interest in bringing up a dead subject"?
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ahh see i didn't realize how old that post was i should check before posting sorry for stepping on anyones toes
ahh so embaressed :oops:
i do have a post up btw to tell you who i am
and im the supposed "Source"
which isn't true
but anyways have a great day everyone sorry for the confusion
Jolynn
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excuse me but brian lombrowski did not sleep with a "source" from summit when he was touring Summit
hes dating someone from summit, me but that was after i was out of summit and excuse me but that angers the shit out of me
haven't i suffered enough abuse that people will not say anything assholish about me?
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Your mother sucks cocks in hell.
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ahh see i didn't realize how old that post was i should check before posting sorry for stepping on anyones toes
ahh so embaressed :oops:
i do have a post up btw to tell you who i am
and im the supposed "Source"
which isn't true
but anyways have a great day everyone sorry for the confusion
Jolynn
Heh.. no harm no foul. Have a good day yourself.
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*curtsey* thanks so much for posting my post that i posted before i realized what the dates were on the board...i dont know that seems kinda mean but i guess i deserve it wait..no i dont..*shrugs* people have a right to have their opinions i guess..but to the person who posted without a name about what i said before..thanks for making me feel worse about it :-?
have a great day,
Jolynn
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btw thanks che gookin :)
i got a very explosive temper and i sometimes need to appologize lol
comes with the territory i guess
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btw thanks che gookin :)
i got a very explosive temper and i sometimes need to appologize lol
comes with the territory i guess
Been there done that.
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yup yup yup think it happens to most lol