Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: spots on May 25, 2003, 11:20:00 PM
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How are things when you get home? If you come home "early" (pre-graduation), is it because your parents finally figured out what was happening, or something else (like running out of money)? I can imagine eventual estrangement if the parents knew or suspected the conditions were bad, but kept kids in the program anyway. However, I'm surprised at how little anger I really see in survivors. What percentage of parents knew and thought tough love was a good thing, and how many simply didn't know details? Before the internet, or even now, it is hard to find info such as is on this board. Did you all live in fear of "return"? How long before you begin to think logically; how long before the brainwashing "washes out"?
Basically, to those who are now free, how do you feel?
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Spots, perhaps you will have an answer to your :question: soon :exclaim:
:wink:
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Does WWASP carry on the "The first and most impotant rule" cunard? In Seed, Straight and follow-on programs, the austensible "First and most important rule" is Honesty. But honesty, in cult parlance, is redefined to mean something completely different.
An honest parent knows that, no matter how disturbing your kids' behavior may be to you; no matter how mysterious and distant they may get, you could always be dead wrong in your assumptions about what they really think, what they'll do next or how it will all turn out.
Worried because your kid suddenly thinks neo-nazi skinheads are the coolest thing since Elvis? You're just dead certain he'll do something to mess up the rest of his life if you don't do something to intervene? Bull puckey! As an adult with life experience and having had time to reflect on youthful indiscretion, all you really know is that he might make mistakes that he'll regret forever. How do you know that? Well, you did, didn't you? And you learned from them and you managed to pull your shit together and become a responsible adult, just like most everyone else does.
When a kid reaches a certain level of maturity, they do not want and (brace yourself! this is a bitter pill to swollow) they do not NEED your help. In fact, the more you interfere without invitation, the easier it is for them to blame you for bad results and push you further away in an effort to prove it was all your fault things went bad.
There's a subtle difference in tone and tennor between "Aw Mom, but I don't want to brush my teeth!" and "It's none of your damned business who my friends are! All you do is condemn them!"
In the first case you know, really, they hate getting cavities more than you hate paying for them and they really do want you to take responsibility because they know the facts and they know you're right. In the second case they really don't know the outcome and, if you're completely honest with yourself about it, you don't either.
What I wouldn't give to have figured that out a few years ago! By the time I figured out that my kid had to figure out her new bestest friends for herself, our relationship was such a shipwreck that she barely spoke to me. I earned back the priviledge of being included in her life by not commenting or speculating on any aspect of her life without her invitation. She'd call me for family recipies, medical advice or just to hear a friendly voice. One day, she looked around and realized that all these people who'd she thought were better than family were turning into a bunch of coke-heads and junkies. Her tuition/car money was gone on this and then the next "emergency" and there wasn't a damned one of them who she could count on to really help when Mr. Wonderful got rough with her.
Without a word to us about her troubles, she got on a bus for home when she was good and damned well ready to do it. As no one can know the mind of another, I don't know what would have happened if I'd played it differently early on. But it seems obvious to me that she would have seen these idiots for what they are a whole lot sooner if I hadn't drawn that line in the sand as I did. I don't mean I should have encouraged her involvement w/ these people. Just that I should have been a little more tactful, less insulting and less combative about it. I should have had more faith in my kid.
When I quit trying to control my daughter and shove advice on her that she hadn't asked for, she started asking me for advice again. Now that she's home again, that has not changed. I'm extremely proud of her for having the backbone to take charge of her own situation and for having learned from her mistakes like an adult.
People don't just wake up one day and decide it's a wonderful idea to call in a couple of Marines (no such thing as an exMarine, just ask one) to come in with shackles and drugs to take their kid by force to a place where you will not be allowed to see or speak to them and about which there are constant allagations of cruelty, fraud and brainwashing. It takes some conditioning to get to that point.
Take everything the Partnership for a Drug Free America and all the TOUGHLOVE hategroups tell you turn it upside down and play it backward.
Don't invade your kids' privacy. They need it. Don't fall for the false notion that this is some kind of battle and that you and your kids are destined to be on opposing sides. You're not. You want them to grow up to be responsible, capable and happy adults. That's what they want. They will make mistakes. How else does anyone ever learn anything? But they'll make some calls better than yours, too. That katty girl I disliked very much as I watched her manipulate and hurt my daughter years ago also grew out of her teen angst and turned out to be the most decent, understanding and true friend a kid could ever have. Thank GOD my kid knew better than to always do what Mommy says wrt choosing her friends!
Your kid doesn't owe you anything yet. Wait till you're old and senile and, if you've earned it, they'll be plenty busy taking care of your needs. Right now, it's not apropriate to be angry with our kids when they make mistakes that primarily effect themselves? Are you embarrassed of your kids? Just take a moment and reflect on all the times and circumstances when you've embarrassed them; intentionally or not.
It's apropriate to be angry when your kid does a real harm to you, like stealing from you or something. It's not a good idea to make all out war against your own kin or to exact revenge. What you really want is for the kid to realize their mistake, learn from it and go on to make new and more interesting mistakes. That's what they want too.
It's also inapropriate and just plain foolish to expect an immiture kid to behave as an adult. Remember that, most of the time, they don't think they need you at all for any reason. Sure, deep down they know the truth. But that's just not on their primary agenda right now.
You always hurt the ones you love because, deep down, you know they'll always be there for you. When you turn your "problem" over to people who will force your will on your kid in ways that would be felonies if you did the same things, you betray that sacred trust. You will never fully regain it, ever, don't kid yourself. The best you can hope for is to patch things up somewhat at some future date.
As adults, we know that that angry kid who doesn't want anything to do with us right now will want and need safe harbour and affection and help later. You're the one who has to use all the experience, intelligence and wisdom you can muster to not let any momentary battle come between you in such a profound way as to compromise that relationship because you're the one who understands in real terms how important it really is.
Talk to your kids when they want to talk to you about what they want to talk about. Come up with ideas. If they hate school, whether you agree or even understand the reasons they give you for hating it, don't just but your foot down (on their neck) and insist that they suck it up like you did. Look into duel enrolement, homeschooling, peace core, a move to a different school district, see if they want to go live with relatives, find out every decent option for solving the problem they want solved.
Don't ever quit reminding them, in ways both subtle and gross, that you really are on their side. It's so damned easy for them to forget sometimes and so hard to regain that trust once lost.
Save our planet; it's the only one with chocolate!
--Andi, domestic goddess
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Antigen - Yes, letting teens grow up, make mistakes, feel their wings, are all a normal part of growing up. WHen it's not normal is when there is NO communication other than obscenities, NO respect for boundaries, stealing, sneaking, lying, daily drug use, not just skipping school, but failing miserably, being told that ADD is a disability and that results in behavior that is not just out of control, but dangerous. What about the single parent that works so many hours she's NOT there for her children when they decide that drugs feel good, not weed, but crack, X, huffing. You're no longer dealing with your child, you're expected to deal with the drugs, and it isn't working. What about the parent that takes his son for counseling and the kid sits there and plays a good game and walks out and decides to punch holes in the wall at home? Or calls police when he gets grounded and says daddy was hitting him? It's crucial to get that child out of that environment, but ONLY if the parents do their own work to change the dynamics within the family. Parents that send their child away and think they're gonna be FIXED cannot possibily expect their child will want to be around them. It takes the whole family to learn to communicate, to be a family. Are there really bad parents...yes I believe there are. Bad parents makes excuses for their child, rescue their child when they skip school, get arrested, get caught shoplifting and don't let them learn their own lessons. A good parent can see when running away, drugs, drinking to excess and driving, controlling their home by their out of control behavior, suicide threats, attempts....will destroy them, maybe not death, but in life...and are willing to rescue then. What IF it doesn't get better? Antigen, if you have ANY questions about WWASP from a mom that's been there, with a kid that was on a death track, and why I chose to rescue him out of love, ask away. I really don't feel you are open, but I'm offering.
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Anon, you sound desperate. I get that. At least intellectually, I understood that pretty well back when I was the 15 year old in question. Now that I'm the mother and my kid is 19, I understand it from a first-hand point of view in full, vibrant and living color.
But, in your panic, you're overlooking a couple of very important things. First, WWASP (with the support of PDFA ads and other propaganda organizations) tells you that neither you nor your kid is capable of dealing with your problems. They don't know that and neither do you. Second, they tell you they can help. But the best evidence they can muster to prove their succes is to order parents and kids to write thank you notes as part of their 'therapy' and then to turn around and use those writings in their PR campaigns.
How do you "learn to be a family" by severing all contact and communications with your family? How do you know Dad didn't hit the kid? It wouldn't be the first nor the last time an adult has kept a kid quiet through intimidation and character assasination. Ask anyone who's ever been diddled by a priest.
WWASP has drawn a line in the sand and instructed you to stand on the opposite side of it from your child. What If he didn't get better on his own? Then, when he's ready, he would have turned to the people he trusts. If you stick with the WWASP program, that's not going to be you. Sorry.
What if, like so many others, WWASP leaves him worse off than he was to begin with? Who does he turn to then? He can't even talk to you about it because you won't believe him. You'll just call it lying manipulation and have him sent back to his abusers.
Can't you see how you're being scammed here?
Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?
--Economist Milton Friedman
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 12:54 ]
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On 2003-09-06 08:35:00, KarenZ wrote:
I do however believe that *IF* they were what they claim to be - they could be.
Well sure. And if there really were a little pill that you could take to make crazy people sane, shy people gregarious and ugly people good looking--all without any unwanted side effects--it would be a wonderful thing. The trouble is that such a thing is not possible. Neither is what the Program promises or how they go about trying to accomplish their goal.
Despite anyone's fond wishes to the contrary, there is only one way to make a person change against their will. First, you have to break their will.
Back to the kid's point of view - Do you not think a teen who is trashing their quality of life and breaking even their own basic standards of decency, might feel unloved and even abandoned, if the parents just leave them to flounder?
Either use force and coercion or do nothing?That's a false imperative, Karen. I just told ya'll what I've done w/ my kid and it's working out just as well as it did for my grandmother and her wild brood of reckless Paddys.
You have to understand that growing up is something we each have to do for ourselves. No matter what your kid gets into, never entertain the idea that they can't or won't come around. Never stop being there for them, no matter how hard they try to piss you off. Never forget that they're the kid, you're the adult and, like it or not, your primary job is to never panic. It is not your job to retain control of your kid or their behavior, to know all their secrets and make sure they never make a serious mistake. It's your job to be there for them when they need you. Don't worry about their taking advantage. For about the last 20 years of your life, if you've done it right, they'll be paying you back in spades.
You can make suggestions instead of demands. You can give your best advice and leave it to them whether to follow it or not, even when you know that not following your advice will bring them great sorrow. If/when they come around to the same conclusion (sometimes you'll find they were right and you were dead wrong or you'll just have to agree to disagree), try not to be too smug and castigating about it.
So, back to the truly out of control teen; What kind of intervention can you see making a difference?
What would a good, respectful, safe and effictive program look like?"
Honestly, I can't imagine and haven't found a program that can fix a kid who doesn't think they're broken. That's what families are for. You can no more hire someone to fill that role than you can hire someone to be your kid's friend. Well... technically, you can hire a "friend", but it's illegal in all states except Nevada, I think.
Bear in mind that the world is really not more dangerous now than any other time and kids ta' day are coming into the world substantially the same as kids in any other day. If you have trouble believing that, I suggest you take a part-time job as a bartender at the VFW and just get a load of some of the stories those old farts have to tell. You'll be glad your kids didn't have to come up through the depression, WWII, Korea and all the rest.
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Where does WWASP promise anything? I keep reading promise, guarantees, etc., that's BS and have never read that anywhere. If you think paying for a human service is a guarantee of success, get real, you'll be very disappointed. I have read OTHER programs promising amazing results...
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Now come on! You mean to tell me that you have ponied up all this dough, agreed to the bizarre and difficlut demands of Program life (including that you dismiss out of hand any one, no matter how credible, who tells you these people might be hurting your kid while they hold him or her incommunicado) and you expected nothing in return? Puh-lease! Were you born yesterday?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: A free people ought...to be armed...
George Washington, 1790
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 12:55 ]
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On 2003-09-06 19:18:00, KarenZ wrote:
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I couldn't get over his ability to look that far ahead!
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Really? I find that kids that age are pretty nearly obsessed with becoming grown up and mastering every skill and body of knowledge they know of.
I'll tell ya' something serious here and maybe helpful in future. I'm damned glad I have brothers and sisters, even though I don't speak with them. When my mother was ill they asked me if I had any particular preferences about what to do with her, how she could be cared for. I really wasn't kidding when I volunteered to find a 'good' nursing home for her.
I never felt that way about my Dad. Even after 10 years of sort of supporting the program, even after he lied to a cop to try and get me arrested and brough back there, he just wasn't the same as her. He didn't love it. He didn't feed on the power trip. And, after some time had passed, he admitted it had been a mistake and he never, ever again followed program advice or believed those lies about me ever again. He went back to telling me I could and giving me every chance to earn his trust, even when I failed to meet his or my own expectations. He'd quit trying to trip me up and tackle me down for good and all.
When he got ill and eventually died, all six of us kids, regardless of our differences, dropped everything and borrowed extra cash so to go out into those remote WV hills in winter to take care of him or talk him into going to the hospital. And he had been the 'bad' parent, always making a scene cussing, saying outrageous things, putting outrageous bumper stickers on his car, drinking, etc. Mom never figured that out, as far as I know. She just can't understand why. She's such a fucking martyr! The Program was like an extension of her real, down underneath it all personality.
When you see people like that, RUN! Don't ever let those kind into your life ever!
The disrespect for the possession laws fosters a disrespect for laws and the system in general... On top of this is the distinct impression among the youth that some police may use the marihuana laws to arrest people they don't like for other reasons, whether it be their politics, their hair style or their ethnic background.
Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding
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When you see people like that, RUN! Don't ever let those kind into your life ever!
I definitly second that emotion!!
:cool:
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 12:56 ]
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On 2003-09-07 08:41:00, KarenZ wrote:
You ex troubled teens - would knowing a dog was being brought in make a difference? Would you not bring the drugs home - cut back on their use, if you knew mom and dad were going to find and destroy it? Its the monetary loss I'm thinking of - would you spend the money on pot or whatever, if you knew some dog was likly to be brought in and sniff it out?
Oh brother! So you think it's a good idea, then, to enlist as a soldier in the War On Drugs after your kid has already signed up for the other side?
Remember that when I was supposed to be approaching and then going through normal teen angst, instead I was in a Seed family. That meant more than weekly open meetings. It also meant no expectation of privacy, never a chance to make a friend or anything without Mother nosing around trying to find fault with them. If I happened to be out walking or bike riding somewhere and ran into another Seed sibling, it was a panic because they might tell some innocent detail that would wind up being the seed for one of Mothers paranoid and most unpleasant flights of fancy.
So I can't tell you too much about how a normal kid would respond. But I can tell you from first hand experience what it was like trying to grow up under a microscope like that.
No, I don't think that kind of stress is going to lead a kid to less or less abusive drug use. It will, however, lead them to spend more nights over at friends' houses, dread your coming into contact with their friends or their friends families. It will embarrass and humiliate them and destroy any kind of trust that might be trying, against all hope, to take purchase on an agreement to not bring the naughty stuff around.
In the court of teenaged public opinion, bringing a detection dog into your home to try to trip up and indict your kid will certainly provide substantial evidence that you're unreasonable, paranoid, maybe vindictive and certainly not to be trusted. If your goal is to drive the kid away, emotionally and physically, I can think of no better plan.
Antigen: The Program was like an extension of her real, down underneath it all personality.
When you see people like that, RUN! Don't ever let those kind into your life ever!
This is just the sort of thing I'm talking about. You think there's some kind of God given moral imperative to make sure your kid is not getting away with any dissent in the drug war? You think that moral imperative overrides all other consideration?
Just bear in mind that Joy Margolis, a spokeswoman for Tampa-based Lutheran Services and former executive director of Straight, now runs a chain of adult care facilities that is notorious for scamming, abusing and neglecting their charges then drugging them to keep them quiet about it.
Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 12:58 ]
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On 2003-09-07 09:31:00, KarenZ wrote:
My house was the house safe from such inspection, and so I held a lot of stash for friends whos rooms weren't so 'safe.'
Exactly. Being hypervigilant with your kids is a powerful disincentive to their spending much time or investing themselves much in the family home.
Geez - you really think it would be as negitive as that?
Well, I see two scenarios. If the kid has a stash, which is illegal, given your recent history, it's not at all out of line for a reasonable person to assume that you might just turn them over to Jonny Law if you catch them.
If the kid is honoring your wishes already by keeing his stash elsewhere or by just abstaining or smoking OP (other people's), then the minute the you call for the search dog, you've demonstrated that you don't trust the kid. So where's the reason to honor any agreement with you or trust you with anything? You're just going to accuse and surveil them anyway.
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Is it okay to lower your standards and compromise your own values? If your standards and values are the same as your kids, then there is no need to hold them to anything higher.
Don't schools regulary do "locker" checks for illegal items? Then what would hold a parent back from being a parent at home? It can be a Catch 22 - no illegal items allowed in the home can enable them to find someone else whose parents do allow it in their home...so maybe that's where they will spend their time. What's illegal? Keyboard cleaner is a huffing agent, as are many household items. The police tell us we need to be better parents, but policing at home can and often does make it worse.
I have no problem with other people think I SHOULD do, I follow my instincts. What happens if you do find illegal substances or items. What is your follow through? Do you have the guts to follow through with any consequence given? Is there a consequence a all?
Times HAVe changed. Instead of the parents being parents, the kids are now controlling the household. If the parents haven't shown their values to their child, the child may assume there are no values, no boundaries, no standards to live by. How many parents of troubled teens have ever shared their individual values? Even two parents may have very different values. Are you a role model? Being on the same page can be difficult to start after the contention has begun, but not impossible.
Karen - do what your gut is telling you. If it doesn't work, then learn something from it. If it does, great! Is it about "control?" Or, is it about being a parent? Know when to be a parent and when to be a friend.
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I think that when parents are honest with their kids and respect their privacy and their decisions and be open about what they have done and the mistakes they have made the kids will usually follow their parent's example.
Using myself as an example, neither of my parents smoke and from a very early age they expressed their disgust with it and how they had tried it and not liked it. They did not police me or give me dirty looks when I hung out with smokers and whoopee even though probably all my friends were smokers at some point (more than half have quit) I don't smoke. Its the parents who suspect their kids all the time and moralize and yell instead of discuss that send their kids off without any good reason not to get high.
If you treat your kids like criminals they will behave that way.
Personally my goal in this cause is not to close down WWASP and the other torture centers but to ban the entire industry and secure legislation that would make it illegal to commit anyone to any form of psychological treatment against their will without due process and the opportunity to present witnesses in their favor as well as a very high bar of accountability in any mental health or treatment facility that houses people against their will.
The industry as a whole is the problem, not just WWASP or CEDU. I feel that inevitably there is gonna be a crisis within the next 2 or 3 years, with this industry. Particularly with WWASP which is already beginning to crumble. At the rate things are going it is only a matter of time before a large overcrowded brutal facility causes an immense disaster with many deaths. A large riot where the staff is executed (because they fucking deserve to die) or more likely an outbreak of disease or food poisoning that kills several inmates.
It is gonna happen, do you want your kid there when it does?
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Let's just look at this logically for a second.
If a teenager is having a problem with alcohol or other drugs, it's causing difficulty in his life. So, grades will be dropping, friendships broken, irritability will be common, money will be needed and there may be problems obtaining it, fights with family, etc. etc. All of these are visible *without any need for snooping*
If there *aren't* any such problems, then the kid is obviously either not using or using in such a fashion that it's not causing problems. Now, you say, but it might be about to cause problems...
Statistically, this is unlikely. 8 of 10 people who try *heroin* don't get hooked-- read the research for yourself if you don't believe me. If you are talking pot or alcohol, while many kids experience a period of excess, only 3-5% of potsmokers ever develop addiction and 5-10% of drinkers become alcoholics. Again, just look carefully at the NIDA statistics and the Household Survey on Drug Abuse to work this out.
So, you can try to "prevent" experimental drug use from getting worse by artificially creating negative consequences for them--but this has serious drawbacks. First, if they haven't experienced negativq consequences of the use itself, they are going to be hard to convince that they have a problem. Second, if you are obviously inflicting these consequnces on them yourself, they are going to think *you* not the drugs are the problem. Third, if you send them off to treatment, they are going to spend their time with harder core drug users and learn more than you want them to know about where to get harder drugs and how to use them. They will also learn that all of the kids there survived this harder core use-- so they will be harder to convince that negative consequences are common.
OK, so using testing to try to find something early and prevent it getting worse is a bad plan.
What if you do have a kid who is experiencing negative consequences, wasted all the time, OD'ing, etc.?
Well, in this case, addiction is a disease. It's not something you can *punish* away. People who use heavily despite negative consequences are almost all trying to flee emotional pain. Creating more pain is not going to stop them. It's just going to give them another reason to use.
What you want to do instead is create an atmosphere of trust and empathy where the child who feels low will turn to you-- not drugs-- when he needs help with emotional pain. Or, if he's already turned to drugs first, where he will come to say 'I'm in over my head-- help!'
Then, you've got the ideal client for drug treatment-- someone who knows they got a problem and wants help with it. You need no force or confrontation or restraint with such people. What you need to do is give them hope and encouragement that life drugfree will be better than life struggling with drugs. And that is hard work-- but you see it done in 12 step programs, in cognitive-behavioral therapies, in motivational interviewing, in harm reduction treatments: in short, it's what good drug treatment is all about.
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Karen, why not turn your love and compassion for animals into something that benefits adults and childen with special needs? Such as training dogs to become the "eyes and ears" for the sight/hearing impaired? Or arranging to bring pets into nursing homes, children's hospitals, rehab facilities, etc.? Seems to me this would be a win-win situation and that your community would be quite receptive and willing to assist with donations to help defray your expenses.
:smile:
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"Then, you've got the ideal client for drug treatment-- someone who knows they got a problem and wants help with it."
In an ideal world - but when the drugs are "talking," not the kid, it's not until the parents SEE there's a problem that it can be dealt with. Yes, most kids grow out of it, graduate high school and go on to be successful. Many kids with AD/HD may not without cognitive education and a way to know they are not bad kids. THey won't get that in the public schools and other mainstream schools. Self-medication is "the norm." They've been living with their "difference" for all their lives and it takes time and structure to change that thinking to learn to work with it instead of against it. AD/HD meds cover it up, with less than consistent results. I know. I'm an adult with it and it took a lot of consistent, behavior change to where I am. Parents without the knowledge can do all the talking or policing they can, but it doesn't change our thinking patterns. So far, the past 3 years, I can say I'm successful.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 13:01 ]
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F.K. mentioned smoking - we don't; and the son didn't either - until his Paw Paw died of cancer; Then he started smoking! I still don't understand that. I threw the cigarettes away when I found them; along with what ever pot I found. For the longest time, that was the only consequence - the loss of the product. We thought as tight with money as he is, he'd soon grow tired of throwing so much away, but it didn't work out like that. Oh well, it was a bad time, and its past now.
I do wish there was a way to really help families avoid so much heart break.
Karen,
What struck me was, "that was the only consequence". I could be off base, but it appears that he was distressed about his grandpa's death and looking for some escape from pain and/or maybe fear of death. He did what he knew to do to lessen the pain. Why would you persue "consequences" rather than helping him identify if the sudden interest had anything to do with some uncomfortable feelings? Seems that it was the perfect opportunity to have some dialogue with him and help him ferret out what was driving him to zone out. Maybe some counseling if he was open to it. I think there is a lack of ability with most parents, most have forgotten or never learned how to listen to their child.
My son went through hell when he returned from the Marine Military Academy. There were many nights that we were up at 1 or 2 am. He didn't usually directly ask for me to listen, he would ask me to scratch his back. If I had the attention, he knew and would go into it. This went on for 4 years. During which time he quit school, worked numerous jobs, smoked pot and drank, racked up a DWI and a DUI. Neither of which I knew about until the police dept called to say he'd missed a court date. He was unemployed at the time and had no means to pay the tickets. He had hit bottom.
There were many times that I questioned allowing him to have the "social" consequences of his behavior, which he truly wasn't in control of. Many times I questioned my decision not to intervene, to incarcerate him. The truth is, I knew he had a good foundation, good street savvy, and I trusted him more than any complete stranger I might turn him over to. I also knew that he would have to make the decision to seek help, an important step to realizing he was making destructive choices that he wanted to change. If I forced him, I would be just another perpetrator. I waited until he hit bottom and in the meantime, found a drug treatment program unique to what the court would have ordered.
The program worked for him, mainly because it gave him time away and provided his real needs. He was 18 at the time and spent 9 months there. It was not a lock down, and rarely did anyone leave. The "consequence" for leaving was that you start over. No guilt, no shame, no extra fees. He might have left any other environment and suffered jail time instead. There was no limit on family contact. Food was excellent, supplements and saunas to aid with detox.
He was treated with genuine respect, and he didn't have to "admit that he was any kind of an "olic" everyday. I knew 12-steps wouldn't work either.
Parents are not willing to "risk" the natural or social consequences of their teen's behavior, so they intervene.
**As for training the support dogs for the disabled - that entails giving them up - and I'd rather not. I could, and I have thought about it - but for now, I'm trying to think of some way to work Conner.
Well, maybe Conner doesn't need a job. I heard about a program in Dallas, Tx that was in jeopardy of loosing funding. "At risk" youth are spending some time every week training dogs to help the disabled, and for competition, I believe. They get the muts from the pound. The teens love the program. Keeps them off the street and they are proud of the job they are doing. They enjoy developing a relationship with their animal and learning to train it. A win-win all around. You might enjoy something like that. You don't strike me as the police type. And parents can rule out drugs for the cost of a piss test.
If they are worried about being held responsible for their teen having pot or drugs in their house, I don't think that concern is legitimate.
I do think teens are invisible in society. There is just not enough opportunity for them to feel worthwhile. They do want to make a valuable contribution and feel a part of, and are capable of SO much more than society allows them to do. There aren't enough, or a variety of ways that teens can do this.
Deborah
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 13:03 ]
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Antigen forgot to log in when she wrote:
On 2003-09-07 13:07:00, Antigen:
Don't schools regulary do "locker" checks for illegal items? Then what would hold a parent back from being a parent at home? It can be a Catch 22 - no illegal items allowed in the home can enable them to find someone else whose parents do allow it in their home...so maybe that's where they will spend their time. What's illegal? Keyboard cleaner is a huffing agent, as are many household items. The police tell us we need to be better parents, but policing at home can and often does make it worse.
Yes, the public schools have become more and more like prisons as the years roll on. When your parents told you to respect your teachers and follow the rules, they were not talking about what's going on TODAY in your kids' high schools.
Police have no business telling YOU to be a better parent! That's not their role. They're not trained to be parents, they're trained to take dangerous criminals, by deadly force if neccessary, into custody as an intake to the criminal justice system. Come to think of it, they don't get any special training in medicine or pharmacology, either. So why are the schools hiring them to teach a course on drugs?
Think over the advice the DARE cop and the Partnership give you. It's not about how to be better parents. It's about how to be better police.
And no, Karen, that is not our primary job as parents.
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On 2003-09-07 17:48:00, KarenZ wrote:
I think in our case, my problem was trusting my son to much. I tended to confide in him and trust him as I would an adult friend. I think it was, at times, more trust than any kid can live up to - and that is fully my fault. I am afraid I inadvertently set him up for a fall, and I'll always wonder how large a part it played in his slipping down hill the way he did.
Karen, I haven't read this whole post yet but I wanted to respond to this before I forget.
I've come to the same conclusion. I can only plead ignorance due to the fact that I never had anything like a 'normal' childhood or high-school career. But I tried to deal with my daughter asif she were willing and able to think about things in the long term and from an adult point of view. I was telling her things and explaining things to her that she had NO interest in thinking about. She was always very polite to me and attentive, but she was really thinking about how fast she could get out and catch up with her friends before they left without her or something.
There are plenty of times when I should have been a lot more clever, kept my mouth shut for the moment and waited till she started to realize some of what I already knew. If I'd done that more, she would not have tried so hard to prove me wrong.
For three days after death, hair and fingernails continue to grow but phone calls taper off.
-- Johnny Carson
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If you want to know what kids are thinking, listen to what they're listening to:
Linkin Park Lyrics
One Step Closer
I cannot take this anymore
I'm saying everything I've said before
All these words they make no sense
I find bliss in ignorance
Less I hear the less you'll say
But you'll find that out anyway
Just like before...
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I find the answers aren't so clear
Wish I could find a way to disappear
All these thoughts they make no sense
I find bliss in ignorance
Nothing seems to go away
Over and over again
Just like before...
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Break break break break break
shut up when I'm talking to you
shut up shut up shut up
shut up when I'm talking to you
shut up shut up shut up shut up
I?m about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Break break break break break break
shut up when I'm talking to you
shut up shut up shut up
shut up when I'm talking to you
shut up shut up shut up shut up
I?m about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford
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On 2003-09-06 05:59:00, Antigen wrote-"Anon, you sound desperate. I get that. At least intellectually, I understood that pretty well back when I was the 15 year old in question. Now that I'm the mother and my kid is 19, I understand it from a first-hand point of view in full, vibrant and living color
Antigen, I WAS desperate, and tried everything here, ran out of options and did what didn't work over and over again - you know what they say that is? Insanity! So I went outside my community, for love of my son and to regain my sanity - I know, you'll debate that! That's okay. My son is almost 19 now and my view is also in full, brilliant and living color.
Antigen: But, in your panic, you're overlooking a couple of very important things. First, WWASP (with the support of PDFA ads and other propaganda organizations) tells you that neither you nor your kid is capable of dealing with your problems. They don't know that and neither do you.
Wrong, Antigen. They never told me I wasn't capable of dealing with my problems. On the contrary, but I didn't think I was based on where we were. I was capable, but didn't yet have the knowledge (my words, not theirs.) I still don't know it all and he's been home over 2 years!
Antigen: Second, they tell you they can help. But the best evidence they can muster to prove their succes is to order parents and kids to write thank you notes as part of their 'therapy' and then to turn around and use those writings in their PR campaigns.
Yes, I think I remember someone saying they could help! That's exactly what we needed! Sorry, but they didn't have letters or thank you's from parents 4 years ago. I spoke to several grads here. Before you say it, they didn't receive money for this. That I do know for sure. I 100% DO NOT AGREE that parents be asked to market the program. I want to make it clear that it should be a personal choice, based on a passion. Not as homework or part of a seminar. That's Teen Help's BS, not the schools themselves. I can tell you I don't care for Teen Help in that respect. They are NOT the program, the staff ARE the program - TH was there when I needed them and if I was ever lied to, I never figured it out!
Antigen:How do you "learn to be a family" by severing all contact and communications with your family? How do you know Dad didn't hit the kid? It wouldn't be the first nor the last time an adult has kept a kid quiet through intimidation and character assasination. Ask anyone who's ever been diddled by a priest.
You say all contact and communication? I had plenty of communication with letters in the first months. Which, actually was the most communication I had with in the year or so prior! It got better as time went by. His letters to me weren't monitored. If they were supposed to be, they sure weren't doing their job. He kept quiet about nothing that I could see. I had to use my gut feelings on what to believe or not. He was never abused or starved, that I do know. As for learning to be a family? The therapy calls, the parent seminars and then the parent/teen seminars we did together, the phone calls, more letters, home passes, learning to communicate, learning to let go, learning that life isn't fair. Learning that we each see the world differently, and don't always agree. YIPPEE! Are we perfect? Hell, no. I'm pretty happy though.
Antigen: WWASP has drawn a line in the sand and instructed you to stand on the opposite side of it from your child. What If he didn't get better on his own? Then, when he's ready, he would have turned to the people he trusts. If you stick with the WWASP program, that's not going to be you. Sorry.
Okay, Antigen, maybe you thought my son was still there. I was NEVEr asked to stand on the opposite side of my son. I did that on my own, as well. This program brought us to the same side - most of the time anyway. When we were at opposite side of the line it had everything to do with our own choices. He not only turned to me, he also learned to trust most of the staff and is still in contact with what he calls the most honest friends he's ever had. Win/Win/Win.
Antigen:What if, like so many others, WWASP leaves him worse off than he was to begin with? Who does he turn to then? He can't even talk to you about it because you won't believe him. You'll just call it lying manipulation and have him sent back to his abusers.
Who's worse off? He's the same young man, a little older, wiser, minus the attitide and drugs. I don't know any graduates that are worse off, in fact they are awesome, still teens, still challenged in life's choices, honest, fun, some are in college, some are working, some are married, some are still not sure what they want, but are nothing like they were when they were admitted, in a good way! I also know some that came home early, but not because their parents thought they were being abused, they could no longer afford it and most are doing great.
I have one mom that has called me ever since she brought her son home a year ago, because she believed his abuse stories. He laughed at her one day and told her the truth. I never asked her why she didn't send him back, that's none of my business.
Antigen:Can't you see how you're being scammed here?
Maybe I'll figure it out some day - if it's a scam, then it's worked in a good way, for both of us.
[/quote]
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Anon - seems like you don't live your life with "what if's."
I know it must have been a hard decision, and I think you said you were on this board because another parent, someone in trouble, saw this site and came to you. Whatever happened? :wink:
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You're right. "What If" is a very scarey place!
Mom, dad and son are doing okay. Mom quit her job and is homeschooling right now. I'm so happy for her, she's less stressed and is enjoying her new role. Their issues weren't nearly as severe as mine were, mostly school and friends, but they seem to be working it out! YES!
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Thanks - I wasn't sure if you were the same ANON or not -just thought I'd ask. Good! It's always better to work it out at home if at all possible. :wink:
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I can only say that just recently have I been able to open up and tell my mom of all the horrific shit that went on at Straight. I was only there for a few months but that was enough to change my life forever. I was made to feel like a was a worthless, useless, piece of shit druggie and mind you the fucked up part is that I NEVER EVEN DID DRUGS to begin with. The whole Straight thing was nothing more than a bunch of money hungry bastards. I do admit I had a lot of family problems plus I was raped at the age of 14 so that had a lot to do with my mental state of mind. But did Straight care... Well HELL NO. :flame: Where my mom is concerned I've held a grudge for over 14 years now but we are finally starting to have a descent relationship again because I don't want it to be too late for me to say I love you to her and her not be here anymore to appologize because she had no idea as to what was going on at Straight. She was literally clueless and I never mentioned it because it just hurt me too much to talk about all the abuse. I just hope that if there are any victims of treatment facilties out there that haven't dealt with it yet please do becasue trust me when you do you will feel a whole hell of a lot better about yourself. Well I've already written too much so I'll leave it on that note.