Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Ridge Creek School / Hidden Lake Academy => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 23, 2007, 01:54:18 PM
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http://www.buffalonews.com/211/story/124796.html?imw=Y (http://www.buffalonews.com/211/story/124796.html?imw=Y)
Danielle Amigone weds Michael Howard
Updated: 07/22/07 9:37 AM
SAVE EMAIL PRINT POPULAR + Larger Font + Smaller Font Mr. and Mrs. Anthony Amigone, of Buffalo, NY, announce the marriage of their daughter, Danielle Marie to Michael Walter Howard of Alpharetta, Georgia, son of Mr. and Mrs. Harold Howard of Alpharetta, Georgia, on July 14, 2007 at St. Joseph's Cathedral.
The couple exchanged vows before Reverend Monsignor James F. Campbell. A reception followed at the Park Country Club.
The bride graduated from Nichols School of Buffalo, and obtained her Bachelor's degree in Psychology and Criminal Justice from Georgia State. She is an Addiction Counselor at Hidden Lake Academy in Georgia.
The groom graduated from Chattahoochee High School and attended Georgia Southern. He is a Furniture Manufacturer Sales Representative in the state of Georgia.
After a trip to Nevis, the couple will reside in Georgia.
I found this article really funny because, like the bride, I have a bachelor's degree in Criminal Justice and Psychology, and I wouldn't know the first thing about helping teenagers who have addictions!! But I guess I should not be surprised.
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I doubt she has a clue, either; but Len has never let incompetency get in the way of hiring someone who will work on the cheap. She isn't even listed on the staff directory, but people are coming and going so rapidly now that Kathleen, or whoever does the updates now, doesn't have time to change it before they are gone.
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Did they ever get the Substance Abuse/ Addiction Program licensed?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17306 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17306)
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guest wrote:
I found this article really funny
So here is a couple starting out their life together and you decide to take their bridal announcement, post it on the web, and make fun of the fact that she has chosen a career path to help children who are struggling, you must be a miserable person. A degree in Psychology is a great background for someone interested in becoming a counselor, what are trying to say? Do you have that little respect for yourself and your degree that you have to drag others down who are trying make a difference and help kids?
because, like the bride, I have a bachelor's degree in Criminal Justice and Psychology, and I wouldn't know the first thing about helping teenagers who have addictions!!
Hopefully you are able to make a living on your criminal justice degree, because you seem to have missed the whole point about how to apply an educational background in psychology. I would be interested to know which school granted you that degree, you seem to have a total lack of compassion for others.
But I guess I should not be surprised.
This method of drawing conclusions is why many fornits posters have no credibility with parents who come on here, you have to drag everyone into the dirt.
::hatter::
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Did they ever get the Substance Abuse/ Addiction Program licensed?
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guest wrote:
I found this article really funny
So here is a couple starting out their life together and you decide to take their bridal announcement, post it on the web, and make fun of the fact that she has chosen a career path to help children who are struggling, you must be a miserable person. A degree in Psychology is a great background for someone interested in becoming a counselor, what are trying to say? Do you have that little respect for yourself and your degree that you have to drag others down who are trying make a difference and help kids?
because, like the bride, I have a bachelor's degree in Criminal Justice and Psychology, and I wouldn't know the first thing about helping teenagers who have addictions!!
Hopefully you are able to make a living on your criminal justice degree, because you seem to have missed the whole point about how to apply an educational background in psychology. I would be interested to know which school granted you that degree, you seem to have a total lack of compassion for others.
But I guess I should not be surprised.
This method of drawing conclusions is why many fornits posters have no credibility with parents who come on here, you have to drag everyone into the dirt.
No, moron - you don't get it. HLA says their "counselors" are "clinically" trained. You said it yourself, A degree in Psychology is a great background for someone interested in becoming a counselor, what are trying to say?
So exactly what kind of experience makes this person an "Addictions Counselor"? Just that she's "interested" in becoming a counselor? HLA leads you to believe that these "counselors" have years upon years of experience to work with your child, which is far from the case.
HLA's "Addictions" program can't become licensed because the person currently running that program had his medical license revoked and Georgia requires the person to become a certified addictions counselor in the state of Georgia. That won't happen because the revocation of the medical license prevents him from obtaining that certification.
No one was making fun of the young woman: the point of the post was to state the obvious, which you choose to ignore.
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No, moron - you don't get it. HLA says their "counselors" are "clinically" trained. You said it yourself,
Read it again.
The bride graduated from Nichols School of Buffalo, and obtained her Bachelor's degree in Psychology and Criminal Justice from Georgia State. She is an Addiction Counselor at Hidden Lake Academy in Georgia.
Again, why do people here find it humorous to rip apart people who decide to dedicate their lives to helping kids? What is it with you people? There is no need to post people’s names on the web and drag them to your level because you decided to stand on the sidelines while others try to make a difference.
There is nothing funny about this, you obviously have no respect for your own career or couldn’t make it yourself so you ridicule others who have. Would you like someone to post your name and ridicule your career decisions? Have some respect. If you dislike HLA, their management and/or the services they provide, that is okay. But stick to what you know. This person could make a difference in many kids lives.
::hatter::
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News flash, buddy - their bridal announcement was on the web. So you can stop with the implication that I somehow violated their privacy by reposting it here.
Here's what I am trying to say - no respected business would hire a person with a bachelor's degree in Psychology to be an addictions counselor. It is simply not done. You don't generally get anywhere in the Psychology field without obtaining at least a master's degree and doing some internships. But apparently you know more about the field I work in than I do, so please, excuse me. :roll:
Oh, and by the way, what I do with my Criminal Justice/Psychology degree and where I earned it is none of your business. And judging my level of compassion based on one post that I made is ridiculous. I accuse HLA of hiring people who are not qualified for their jobs, and provide evidence, and suddenly I lack compassion? Right. I would say that you are the one who lacks compassion, because you obviously see nothing wrong with sending troubled kids to a school such as HLA, which can only cause further damage.
But, again, this is typical of HLA supporters. I post an article demonstrating that the school is clearly hiring people who have no business being there, and you decide to attack me instead. Classy.
guest wrote:
I found this article really funny
So here is a couple starting out their life together and you decide to take their bridal announcement, post it on the web, and make fun of the fact that she has chosen a career path to help children who are struggling, you must be a miserable person. A degree in Psychology is a great background for someone interested in becoming a counselor, what are trying to say? Do you have that little respect for yourself and your degree that you have to drag others down who are trying make a difference and help kids?
because, like the bride, I have a bachelor's degree in Criminal Justice and Psychology, and I wouldn't know the first thing about helping teenagers who have addictions!!
Hopefully you are able to make a living on your criminal justice degree, because you seem to have missed the whole point about how to apply an educational background in psychology. I would be interested to know which school granted you that degree, you seem to have a total lack of compassion for others.
But I guess I should not be surprised.
This method of drawing conclusions is why many fornits posters have no credibility with parents who come on here, you have to drag everyone into the dirt.
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it doesnt take much to become an addiction counselor at hla.
just sit in through a few AA meetings and you'll be roughly as qualified.
"addiction counseling" is a sham. you cant teach someone how to stop someone else from taking drugs, especially if you've never been an addict yourself. just aint happening. now clay erikson and jen raeger (she doesnt work there anymore) ARE addicts - clay to opiates and jen to food. but unfourtunatly they are active addicts. come on...Jen is as wide as she is tall. addicts rarely ever listen to hypocrites. all of the shit i sat through with the addiction program was bull shit. we were just being indoctrinated with all these nutty, completely unrealistic ideas from clay. addiction IS NOT A DISEASE. IT IS A CHOICE. using "god" to help you with your addiction is bull. it's just a placebo for people who are devoted to a god. god doesnt stop you from drinking, you stop yourself. it's just if you belive in god, and think he'll help you're more likely to stop yourself. HLA is supposedly a non-religious school, yet they force kids into the gnostic AA doctrine, and if you dont co-operate they say you're not making any progress, although you're simply a devout buddhist, and do not belive in all the bullshit. AA-way of doing things should be a choice among other choices, not a requirement.
now as far as this counselor goes...i think she's going to be worse than clay or jen. she has no addiction experience. how can people be so utterly ignorant to think that a B.A in psych qualifies you to be an addictions counselor? maybe if she spent her teen years as an addict and recovered, or maybe if she specialized in addiction at her univeristy she might be quasi-qualified like clay, but she pretty obviously didnt.
why do i think AA is a sham? becouse i've been to hundreds of AA mettings and watched people relapse again and again, live miserably, and the ones that stay clean become religiious nuts and end up spending half their weeknights at AA. the group itself becomes an addiction.
At the same time i've seen alot more people, who have never been to a meeting stop drinking and doing drugs very easily. some had kids, and quit. some got a fullfilling job, and quit. some got sick of drugs and quit. i even know a guy who shot up coke for 8 years, one day woke up and decided to stop. and he stopped, with his own will. are these people different from the ones you see at AA? not at all, not the slightest bit. they were all "powerless", but powerlessness is a mirage. in reality no one, not even a diety can hold more power over a person than the person themselves. it's called free will.
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News flash, buddy - their bridal announcement was on the web. So you can stop with the implication that I somehow violated their privacy by reposting it here.
You still don’t get it. They put their wedding announcement in the news paper for the purpose of sharing their happiness and their next step in life. Its not a resume. It is not intended to be reposted all over the internet and held up for ridicule for family members and friends to witness your poor judgment and bad taste.
If you hand your credit card to your waitress does that allow her to give the number and name to other people? Can she post it in the kitchen for others to see or write them down and keep a list at home? Or is there an implied trust that she will use the card for a single purpose?
When this woman posted her bridal announcement did she intend or expect to have to defend her qualifications as an addiction counselor? Do you expect that in the future people include all their work experience and justify their career position in the bridal announcement?
If you have a beef with HLA, stick with the senior staff or board members who have a say in how the ship is steered.
Here's what I am trying to say – no respected business would hire a person with a bachelor's degree in Psychology to be an addictions counselor. It is simply not done. You don't generally get anywhere in the Psychology field without obtaining at least a master's degree and doing some internships. But apparently you know more about the field I work in than I do, so please, excuse me.
If you feel strongly about this then try to make some constructive criticism which will benefit the industry, the kids, educate the parents, lay the ground work for industry wide changes. This type of ridicule only belittles yourself and shows the weak position everyone has against HLA when you need to resort to trying to find fault with each employee and picking apart their career goals.
Here are some job postings from around the country:
###### was with the WATCh Program since May 2002 before coming to the CCP program. Prior to coming to the WATCh Program, ##### had over 12 years experience as an addictions and sex offender counselor in Minnesota at the Lino Lakes Prison. ##### obtained her Bachelor's degree from St. Catherine’s College and is a Licensed Addictions Counselor in Montana.
#### has worked at CCCS for since October 1997. She was previously a bookkeeper and office manager until being hired as an Resident Assistant at the Women's Transition Center. #### transferred to CCP as a Counselor Technician, and then was promoted to an Addictions Counselor position. She has an Associates degree in Addictions Counseling from the University of Great Falls, in Great Falls, MT. ### will graduate in May 2005 with a Bachelor's degree in Liberal Studies from Montana Tech of the University of Montana in Butte, MT. She plans to attend graduate school at the University of Montana, where she will work for a Master's in Social Work.
#### began his employment with the Community, Counseling, and Correctional Services, Inc. (CCCS) in June 2001. He previously worked as an officer in Adult Probation and Parole, an Addictions Counselor at the Montana Chemical Dependency Center, a Unit Manager at Pine Hills and an Adolescent Counselor at the Rivendell of Butte facility. ### holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Society and Technology with emphasis in Human Values from Montana Tech of the University of Montana in Butte, Montana. He has also taken all of the necessary addictions studies from the University of Great Falls to allow his State Licensure. ### was born and raised in Butte, and enjoys fixing up his old house and spending time with his family.
Government job posting for Addictions counselor:
C4L – SOCIAL WORK/COUNSELOR [/]
July 1, 2007
Graduation from an accredited college or university with a master's degree in psychology[/], social work, counseling, or related field appropriate to the assignment. Some positions may require certification as a Certified Assistant Addictions Counselor I or II.
A combination of work experience and education that provided the same kind and level of knowledge acquired in the required education may be substituted for the master’s degree[/] on a year-for-year basis.
I post an article demonstrating that the school is clearly hiring people who have no business being there, and you decide to attack me instead.
Now you try to play the victim, how typical of this site. Maybe you can blame the school or your parents for your postings. Why cant people here try to help others instead of spreading all this hated and self loathing.
::hatter::
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You're comparing a wedding announcement in a public newspaper, which anyone can read by buying the paper or searching online, to a waitress stealing someone's credit card information, which is not public information)? I'm not even going to address that comment. Your logic is completely ridiculous and designed to take attention away from the topic which is simply this: HLA hires unqualified people. Period, end of story. Here is a little more proof:
http://naadac.org/sap/list.php?StateID=GA (http://naadac.org/sap/list.php?StateID=GA)
She is not listed as a licensed Substance Abuse Professional in Georgia or New York.
In your first job posting, note that the person was licensed to provide counseling. In the second posting, the person went to school specifically for Addictions Counseling and is working towards a master's. Third posting: licensed. Fourth posting: requires a master's degree unless you have previous work experience, which is determined by the hiring agency. See a theme here?
I will say this: maybe she had some previous experience working with addicted people. If so, that's great. But the fact that she does not have an advanced degree and is not licensed by the national organization to provide addiction counseling is more than just a little bit disturbing. But hey, if think that's good enough, then fine - you can send your kid there someday, if, God forbid, he has the bad luck to become addicted to something. If I have the misfortune, I think that I will find someone with a few more qualifications to treat my child. I am not trying to specifically bash this woman - maybe she is working towards her license or master's degree. But the fact remains that she has neither of those things and is still employed to give addictions counseling to young, confused, impressionable teenagers.
And yes, you did attack me. I'm not playing the victim here. It is in black and white for anyone to see. In your initial response to me, you called me a miserable person, said that I lacked compassion and had little respect for myself. Are you going to try to distance yourself from your own statements?
You're right in that I have a beef with HLA, and I will take issue with anyone who works there, not just senior management. Anyone who works there, I am quite sure, is aware that there are serious problems with the place (how could they not?), and even if they are not causing the problems, they are just as guilty by association. They condone those actions by continuing to work there.
News flash, buddy - their bridal announcement was on the web. So you can stop with the implication that I somehow violated their privacy by reposting it here.
You still don’t get it. They put their wedding announcement in the news paper for the purpose of sharing their happiness and their next step in life. Its not a resume. It is not intended to be reposted all over the internet and held up for ridicule for family members and friends to witness your poor judgment and bad taste.
If you hand your credit card to your waitress does that allow her to give the number and name to other people? Can she post it in the kitchen for others to see or write them down and keep a list at home? Or is there an implied trust that she will use the card for a single purpose?
When this woman posted her bridal announcement did she intend or expect to have to defend her qualifications as an addiction counselor? Do you expect that in the future people include all their work experience and justify their career position in the bridal announcement?
If you have a beef with HLA, stick with the senior staff or board members who have a say in how the ship is steered.
Here's what I am trying to say – no respected business would hire a person with a bachelor's degree in Psychology to be an addictions counselor. It is simply not done. You don't generally get anywhere in the Psychology field without obtaining at least a master's degree and doing some internships. But apparently you know more about the field I work in than I do, so please, excuse me.
If you feel strongly about this then try to make some constructive criticism which will benefit the industry, the kids, educate the parents, lay the ground work for industry wide changes. This type of ridicule only belittles yourself and shows the weak position everyone has against HLA when you need to resort to trying to find fault with each employee and picking apart their career goals.
Here are some job postings from around the country:
###### was with the WATCh Program since May 2002 before coming to the CCP program. Prior to coming to the WATCh Program, ##### had over 12 years experience as an addictions and sex offender counselor in Minnesota at the Lino Lakes Prison. ##### obtained her Bachelor's degree from St. Catherine’s College and is a Licensed Addictions Counselor in Montana.
#### has worked at CCCS for since October 1997. She was previously a bookkeeper and office manager until being hired as an Resident Assistant at the Women's Transition Center. #### transferred to CCP as a Counselor Technician, and then was promoted to an Addictions Counselor position. She has an Associates degree in Addictions Counseling from the University of Great Falls, in Great Falls, MT. ### will graduate in May 2005 with a Bachelor's degree in Liberal Studies from Montana Tech of the University of Montana in Butte, MT. She plans to attend graduate school at the University of Montana, where she will work for a Master's in Social Work.
#### began his employment with the Community, Counseling, and Correctional Services, Inc. (CCCS) in June 2001. He previously worked as an officer in Adult Probation and Parole, an Addictions Counselor at the Montana Chemical Dependency Center, a Unit Manager at Pine Hills and an Adolescent Counselor at the Rivendell of Butte facility. ### holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Society and Technology with emphasis in Human Values from Montana Tech of the University of Montana in Butte, Montana. He has also taken all of the necessary addictions studies from the University of Great Falls to allow his State Licensure. ### was born and raised in Butte, and enjoys fixing up his old house and spending time with his family.
Government job posting for Addictions counselor:
C4L – SOCIAL WORK/COUNSELOR [/]
July 1, 2007
Graduation from an accredited college or university with a master's degree in psychology[/], social work, counseling, or related field appropriate to the assignment. Some positions may require certification as a Certified Assistant Addictions Counselor I or II.
A combination of work experience and education that provided the same kind and level of knowledge acquired in the required education may be substituted for the master’s degree[/] on a year-for-year basis.
I post an article demonstrating that the school is clearly hiring people who have no business being there, and you decide to attack me instead.
Now you try to play the victim, how typical of this site. Maybe you can blame the school or your parents for your postings. Why cant people here try to help others instead of spreading all this hated and self loathing.
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News flash, buddy - their bridal announcement was on the web. So you can stop with the implication that I somehow violated their privacy by reposting it here.
You still don’t get it. They put their wedding announcement in the news paper for the purpose of sharing their happiness and their next step in life. Its not a resume. It is not intended to be reposted all over the internet and held up for ridicule for family members and friends to witness your poor judgment and bad taste.
If you hand your credit card to your waitress does that allow her to give the number and name to other people? Can she post it in the kitchen for others to see or write them down and keep a list at home? Or is there an implied trust that she will use the card for a single purpose?
When this woman posted her bridal announcement did she intend or expect to have to defend her qualifications as an addiction counselor? Do you expect that in the future people include all their work experience and justify their career position in the bridal announcement?
If you have a beef with HLA, stick with the senior staff or board members who have a say in how the ship is steered.
Here's what I am trying to say – no respected business would hire a person with a bachelor's degree in Psychology to be an addictions counselor. It is simply not done. You don't generally get anywhere in the Psychology field without obtaining at least a master's degree and doing some internships. But apparently you know more about the field I work in than I do, so please, excuse me.
If you feel strongly about this then try to make some constructive criticism which will benefit the industry, the kids, educate the parents, lay the ground work for industry wide changes. This type of ridicule only belittles yourself and shows the weak position everyone has against HLA when you need to resort to trying to find fault with each employee and picking apart their career goals.
Here are some job postings from around the country:
###### was with the WATCh Program since May 2002 before coming to the CCP program. Prior to coming to the WATCh Program, ##### had over 12 years experience as an addictions and sex offender counselor in Minnesota at the Lino Lakes Prison. ##### obtained her Bachelor's degree from St. Catherine’s College and is a Licensed Addictions Counselor in Montana.
#### has worked at CCCS for since October 1997. She was previously a bookkeeper and office manager until being hired as an Resident Assistant at the Women's Transition Center. #### transferred to CCP as a Counselor Technician, and then was promoted to an Addictions Counselor position. She has an Associates degree in Addictions Counseling from the University of Great Falls, in Great Falls, MT. ### will graduate in May 2005 with a Bachelor's degree in Liberal Studies from Montana Tech of the University of Montana in Butte, MT. She plans to attend graduate school at the University of Montana, where she will work for a Master's in Social Work.
#### began his employment with the Community, Counseling, and Correctional Services, Inc. (CCCS) in June 2001. He previously worked as an officer in Adult Probation and Parole, an Addictions Counselor at the Montana Chemical Dependency Center, a Unit Manager at Pine Hills and an Adolescent Counselor at the Rivendell of Butte facility. ### holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Society and Technology with emphasis in Human Values from Montana Tech of the University of Montana in Butte, Montana. He has also taken all of the necessary addictions studies from the University of Great Falls to allow his State Licensure. ### was born and raised in Butte, and enjoys fixing up his old house and spending time with his family.
Government job posting for Addictions counselor:
C4L – SOCIAL WORK/COUNSELOR [/]
July 1, 2007
Graduation from an accredited college or university with a master's degree in psychology[/], social work, counseling, or related field appropriate to the assignment. Some positions may require certification as a Certified Assistant Addictions Counselor I or II.
A combination of work experience and education that provided the same kind and level of knowledge acquired in the required education may be substituted for the master’s degree[/] on a year-for-year basis.
I post an article demonstrating that the school is clearly hiring people who have no business being there, and you decide to attack me instead.
Now you try to play the victim, how typical of this site. Maybe you can blame the school or your parents for your postings. Why cant people here try to help others instead of spreading all this hated and self loathing.
I thought The Who was banned from posting?
MODS: This is The Who posting more spam! Let's give this asshole the final heave-ho, shall we? Please DELETE The Who's recent anonymous postings and ban his new IP address.
For the record: The Who, despite your vacuous post, it ISN'T OK to hire unqualified, unlicensed staff to perform work that requires a license!
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I will say this: maybe she had some previous experience working with addicted people. If so, that's great.
Thank you. I think it is important not to pre judge people.
They condone those actions by continuing to work there.
There are people who volunteer during war time to help the wounded and they are totally against the war. Doesn’t mean they should be humiliated for their choice. They feel they can help and make a difference in another person’s life, even in bad situations.
Give it some thought next time is all I ask.
::hatter::
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The last time I checked the clinical field does consider addiction as a disease. Of course, one has a choice to pick up the bottle or snort the cocaine or pop the pills, but, they consider it a disease because an addict is not capable or does not have the normal ability to say no. Their body thinks it cannot live without the drug/alcohol/nicotine/etc. I have never felt the urge to do something so overwhelming that I couldn't quit, but I have friends who have had to seek professional help, and I can tell you that they don't feel they had a "choice". They felt the addiction consumed them. The statement in the post several posts back about addiction not being a disease is false.
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The last time I checked the clinical field does consider addiction as a disease. Of course, one has a choice to pick up the bottle or snort the cocaine or pop the pills, but, they consider it a disease because an addict is not capable or does not have the normal ability to say no. Their body thinks it cannot live without the drug/alcohol/nicotine/etc. I have never felt the urge to do something so overwhelming that I couldn't quit, but I have friends who have had to seek professional help, and I can tell you that they don't feel they had a "choice". They felt the addiction consumed them. The statement in the post several posts back about addiction not being a disease is false.
No, its really not. Your friends have bought into the whole stepcraft culture that's been going on for about 70 or so years. Addiction is not a disease. Educate yourself. Stop being a sheep. That's how these places began and its how they've been allowed to continue for so fucking long.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-powerless.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-powerless.html)
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The last time I checked the clinical field does consider addiction as a disease. Of course, one has a choice to pick up the bottle or snort the cocaine or pop the pills, but, they consider it a disease because an addict is not capable or does not have the normal ability to say no. Their body thinks it cannot live without the drug/alcohol/nicotine/etc. I have never felt the urge to do something so overwhelming that I couldn't quit, but I have friends who have had to seek professional help, and I can tell you that they don't feel they had a "choice". They felt the addiction consumed them. The statement in the post several posts back about addiction not being a disease is false.
More on the subject.
http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/cbook/chap6.html (http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/cbook/chap6.html)
CHAPTER 6
Why We Should Reject The Disease Concept of Alcoholism*
Herbert Fingarette, Ph. D.
Why do heavy drinkers persist in their behavior even when prudence, common sense, and moral duty call for restraint? That is the central question in debates about alcohol abuse. In the United States, but not in other countries such as Great Britain (Robertson and Heather, 1982), the standard answer is to call the behavior a disease—"alcoholism"—whose key symptom is a pattern of uncontrollable drinking. This myth, now widely advertised and widely accepted, is neither helpfully compassionate nor scientifically valid. It promotes false beliefs and inappropriate attitudes, as well as harmful, wasteful, and ineffective social policies.
The myth is embodied in the following four scientifically baseless propositions:
1) Heavy problem drinkers show a single distinctive pattern of ever greater alcohol use leading to ever greater bodily, mental, and social deterioration.
2) The condition once it appears, persists involuntarily: the craving is irresistible and the drinking is uncontrollable once it has begun.
3) Medical expertise is needed to understand and relieve the condition ("cure the disease") or at least ameliorate its symptoms.
4) Alcoholics are no more responsible legally or morally for their drinking and its consequences than epileptics are responsible for the consequences of their movements during seizures.
The idea that alcoholism is a disease has always been a political and moral notion with no scientific basis. It was first promoted in the United States around 1800 as a speculation based on erroneous physiological theory (Levine, 1978), and later became a theme of the temperance movement (Gusfield, 1963). It was revived in the 1930s by the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), who derived their views from an amalgam or religious ideas, personal experiences and observations, and the unsubstantiated theories of a contemporary physician (Robinson, 1979).
*This is a slightly edited version of an article in press to be published In The Harvard Medical School Mental Health Letter. By permission of Harvard University, copyright owner.
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That is one side of the debate, but there have been studies done on certain groups of peoples, such as Native Americans, that show that their genetics create, in a larger proportion than the regular population, the propensity to become alcoholics. How do you explain that if its only the person's "choice" that they become alcoholics? I am not saying that people don't have the power to change their addiction themselves, without a treatment center, or incarceration, because I think they do, but to just say that it's the addict's fault and that they are just weak is completely unfair to those trying to quit their addiction. A true addict has a very hard time saying no, something us non-addicts will never truly understand.
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That is one side of the debate, but there have been studies done on certain groups of peoples, such as Native Americans, that show that their genetics create, in a larger proportion than the regular population, the propensity to become alcoholics. How do you explain that if its only the person's "choice" that they become alcoholics?
From TFA (apparently reading for comprehension isn't one of your strong suits)
Recent studies have also been said to imply that alcoholism is a hereditary disease. But that is not what the genetic research shows. In the first place, these studies provide no evidence of a genetic factor in the largest group of heavy drinkers—those who have significant associated problems but are not diagnosable as alcoholics. Even among the minority who can be so diagnosed, the data suggest that only a minority have the pertinent genetic background. And even in this category, a minority of a minority, studies report that the majority do not become alcoholics (Goodwin, et al., 1973; Cloninger, et al., 1981; Deitrich and Spuhler, 1984).
It is not only misleading but dangerous to regard alcoholism as a genetic disorder. Heavy drinkers without alcoholism in their genetic backgrounds are led to feel immune to serious drinking problems, yet they have the greatest total number of problems. On the other hand, people who do have some hereditary disposition to alcoholism could easily become defeatist. Their risk is higher, and they should be aware of that, but their fate is still very much in their own hands.
I am not saying that people don't have the power to change their addiction themselves, without a treatment center, or incarceration, because I think they do, but to just say that it's the addict's fault and that they are just weak is completely unfair to those trying to quit their addiction. A true addict has a very hard time saying no, something us non-addicts will never truly understand.
I've been diagnosed an addict. It's all bullshit. Educate yourself.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html)
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MODS: This is The Who posting more spam! Let's give this asshole the final heave-ho, shall we? Please DELETE The Who's recent anonymous postings and ban his new IP address.
Agreed!! Why dont we go one better and delete any post that disagrees with our beliefs (spam), especially if they dont have the guts to get a log-in (like the guest above mentioned). Give them one warning and then ban their friggin asses after 3 posts and boot their butts into never-never land, if they dont change their position.
This will clear the board for the rest of us who know whats good for everyone else.
::hatter::
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My mother lives next door to a Cherokee Indian Reservation. She has seen first hand the number of alcoholics in proportion to the rest of the population, in comparison to european americans. I am sure your comments you copied and posted will fall on deaf ears to those who live with alcoholism on the reservation. What do you propose? That these Cherokee peoples just want to drink themselves to death? I don't think so.
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the facts about genetic disposition to alchohol are wildly misconstrued. The genetic disposition has nothing to do with your ability to choose not to drink over drinking.
Certain groups of people [e.g. native americans] have a higher incidence of a gene which impedes the digestion of alchohol. their bodies are simply not as good at processing alchohol in comparison to for example southern europeans. there is a good reason, and it has everything to do with evolution. europeans, along with some africans and central asians have been drinking ever since civilization popped up, therefore we have had time over hundreds of generations to evolve a level of alchohol tolerance. [most] native americans on the other hand, were introduced to alchohol only a few centuries ago. they are about as good as a european toddler at processing alchohol. What does this mean? well it means native americans get drunker faster, and their brains and livers are affected by constant consuption much much faster. this is very simmilar to the cocaine/crack cocaine thing. snorted cocaine is addictive, but no where near to the degree of crack, becouse the high comes on slower, is less intense, and doesnt affect you as much, as addictive as it is people dont have anywhere near as much trouble quitting it than crack, becouse the high is more intense, even though technically it's the [nearly] same substance. same thing with native americans and alchohol, it's the same substance but the way it passes through their bodies makes the alchohol affect them more.
am i making sense or should i dig up references?
also keep in mind there is more than one guest....could be 50+ regular posters staying anon
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the facts about genetic disposition to alchohol are wildly misconstrued. The genetic disposition has nothing to do with your ability to choose not to drink over drinking.
Certain groups of people [e.g. native americans] have a higher incidence of a gene which impedes the digestion of alchohol. their bodies are simply not as good at processing alchohol in comparison to for example southern europeans. there is a good reason, and it has everything to do with evolution. europeans, along with some africans and central asians have been drinking ever since civilization popped up, therefore we have had time over hundreds of generations to evolve a level of alchohol tolerance. [most] native americans on the other hand, were introduced to alchohol only a few centuries ago. they are about as good as a european toddler at processing alchohol. What does this mean? well it means native americans get drunker faster, and their brains and livers are affected by constant consuption much much faster. this is very simmilar to the cocaine/crack cocaine thing. snorted cocaine is addictive, but no where near to the degree of crack, becouse the high comes on slower, is less intense, and doesnt affect you as much, as addictive as it is people dont have anywhere near as much trouble quitting it than crack, becouse the high is more intense, even though technically it's the [nearly] same substance. same thing with native americans and alchohol, it's the same substance but the way it passes through their bodies makes the alchohol affect them more.
am i making sense or should i dig up references?
also keep in mind there is more than one guest....could be 50+ regular posters staying anon
I did reference it. I posted the link and the text which SHH has chosen to ignore. I don't know what more I can say. The piece I linked to specifically addressed those Native Americans she speaks of.
Is it me?
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My mother lives next door to a Cherokee Indian Reservation. She has seen first hand the number of alcoholics in proportion to the rest of the population, in comparison to european americans. I am sure your comments you copied and posted will fall on deaf ears to those who live with alcoholism on the reservation. What do you propose? That these Cherokee peoples just want to drink themselves to death? I don't think so.
Again, you must have a problem with reading for comprehension. I propose the following:
1. Personal Responsibility
2. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html)
3. A release from the Dogma that is AA and it's kin
4. Parenting (Personal Responsibility)
Been drinking tonight? You're not paying attention.
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The last time I checked the clinical field does consider addiction as a disease. Of course, one has a choice to pick up the bottle or snort the cocaine or pop the pills, but, they consider it a disease because an addict is not capable or does not have the normal ability to say no. Their body thinks it cannot live without the drug/alcohol/nicotine/etc. I have never felt the urge to do something so overwhelming that I couldn't quit, but I have friends who have had to seek professional help, and I can tell you that they don't feel they had a "choice". They felt the addiction consumed them. The statement in the post several posts back about addiction not being a disease is false.
All bullshit.
Diseases are medical conditions.
I don't mean to minimize how hard it is for some to use moderation, or the difficulty some experience who try to stop altering their reality, but the misuse of mind altering substances is NOT A DISEASE. There is no genetic link.
They were classified as "disease" so "helpers" could be paid by insurance companies for their "addiction services".
Honestly, How many kids who attend HLA are ADDICTS? How many have/had a "real" drug/alcohol problem?
I'm guessing none, or a very few. They aren't equiped to deal with a truely addicted person. How many are rushed to the hospital for withdrawal symptoms? How many are on Methadone?
I happen to know a person who had smoked pot and abused alcohol on a daily basis for several years. Zero physical withdrawal symptoms except the emotions that he was attempting to avoid dealing with. He did report that those on 'hard' drugs and true alcoholics had a rough time detoxing. Physically ill and were never left alone during detox in case there was an emergency.
Substance abuse and detoxing are NOT DISEASES.
Given that, should what they offer at HLA be called "Addiction" treatment? How about "AA groups offered for pot/drug/alcohol use"?
"Addiction" fits better with the fear mongering agenda. And, by golly, allows HLAs service to be paid by insurance.
They probably don't feel their people need to be certified, or their program licensed because they're basically running an AA group with some good ol new-agey CEDU group confrontation thrown in. Appears that damn near anyone's qualified to do that.
How many go right back to their "habits" when they leave? How many leave and try all the drugs they learned about in HLA? That's what the discerning parent wants to know. What are they spending $100k+ on? A miracle. Sorry to say.... ain't gonna happen. Read MySpace.
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The opinion which you share with us here and the post you copied and pasted (I didnt read EVERY line of each link, sorry I dont have that kind of time on my hands), is one opinion out of many who study addiction. Here are a few links to what I have been trying to get across on here:
http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v17n3/p18.html (http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v17n3/p18.html)
http://www.guilford.edu/original/Academ ... gwalt.html (http://www.guilford.edu/original/Academic/chemistry/current_courses/chem110/ringwalt.html)
http://vltakaliseji.tripod.com/Vtlakaliseji/id20.html (http://vltakaliseji.tripod.com/Vtlakaliseji/id20.html)
http://tinyurl.com/2bahxz (http://tinyurl.com/2bahxz)
I am not trying to say that these studies are infallible. Neither is the other side of the debate infallible. But, leave it open to the possibility that genetics play a role in whether or not a person has a predisposition to become an alcoholic. I am not convinced that some alcoholics are just lazy and could put down the bottle if they wanted to. Some would love nothing better, but, lack the ability to whether it be psychological or biological.
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1. I dont drink
2. Ive never attended an AA meeting.
3. I dont believe in AA philosophies. I personally know someone who started going to AA and is now addicted to the AA meetings!
4. Just because I don't agree with your position doesn't mean I can't comprehend. Your statistics aren't the only ones out there. This is not a cut and dry answer to addiction.
5. Why don't you open your mind to the POSSIBILITY that your position that addiction is a choice is flawed.
6. Do we have any clinical psychologists or doctors on board tonight that can add something to this?
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You still don’t get it. They put their wedding announcement in the news paper for the purpose of sharing their happiness and their next step in life. Its not a resume.
Damn skippy. It's not a resume. So why mention that she's an Addiction Counselor at HLA in her wedding announcement?????
It is not intended to be reposted all over the internet and held up for ridicule for family members and friends to witness your poor judgment and bad taste.
What was in bad taste is her need to embellish. I believe that's considered a disorder, possibly an "addiction".
If you hand your credit card to your waitress does that allow her to give the number and name to other people? Can she post it in the kitchen for others to see or write them down and keep a list at home? Or is there an implied trust that she will use the card for a single purpose?
There's only one person that uses such poor analogies. Regulars know WHO that person is. ::hatter::
When this woman posted her bridal announcement did she intend or expect to have to defend her qualifications as an addiction counselor?
I bet she didn't. That's how programs work. They don't "expect" any one to question or do research.
Why cant people here try to help others instead of spreading all this hated and self loathing.
Guess it depends on your perspective and definition of "help". There's a lot of help being offered here for anyone who has the good sense to take advantage of it.
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My mother lives next door to a Cherokee Indian Reservation. She has seen first hand the number of alcoholics in proportion to the rest of the population, in comparison to european americans. I am sure your comments you copied and posted will fall on deaf ears to those who live with alcoholism on the reservation. What do you propose? That these Cherokee peoples just want to drink themselves to death? I don't think so.
What a convenient excuse for the racial/economic oppression these people have experienced for over a century.
I'm of Cherokee descent and we had no alcoholics in our family. In fact, they didn't even partake in alcohol. Native Americans have no more 'genetic predisposition' to alchoholism than Europeans, and I resent the sterotyping. The majority of Cherokee assimilated and are productive members of society.
Let's round up a few thousand Europeans, steal their land and all their worldy possessions, except what they can carry. Stick them on barren land with no way to earn a living, force them to practice some foriegn religion, infect them with smallpox, and see how many of those who survive turn to substance abuse to deal with the very unpleasant reality or oppression and captivity. I feel certain a large proportion would become substance abusers.
Then we would observe that a larger proportion of Europeans on the Rez were alcoholics in comparison to the free Cherokees- there's a whole bunch of us who aren't. And conclude that European's must have a 'genetic predisposition' to alcoholism/ substance abuse.
The Europeans didn't send in couselors to help with the utter distress and dispair they inflicted on these people. They did provide THEIR ALCOLHOL to a population of oppressed who had not had substance abuse issues prior to their arrival. I'm sure some welcomed the "relief".
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So why mention that she's an Addiction Counselor at HLA in her wedding announcement?????
Because that is what some people do. The write-up and etiquette varies depending on what part of the country you are from. They announce their engagement/marriage and tell a little about themselves and what they do or their interests. Most often it is the parents of the Bride who write the whole thing up and submit it, not the ones getting married.
Some may say they are graduates of such and such university school of medicine and are presently chief surgeon of podiatry at “Last Chance Medical Center”. They typically don’t include all the details of their internships and accolades which got them to where they are. Some parents get a little over zealous because they are proud of their son or daughters achievements and add more information than others .
Deborah, I was waiting for you to jump in and back this person up (or log-in, wink, wink). This is right up your alley, you rarely miss an opportunity to knock a kid down a peg who is trying to do good and make a difference.
::hatter::
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I certainly by no means intended racism in my comments, I myself have some native american ancestry from my mothers side. My mother has very good friends who are Cherokee, she works on the reservation, and her husband is 1/4 Cherokee. I was posting scientific studies and opinions that pose the possibility that it is genetic differences in native americans that might predispose them to a higher chance of becoming alcoholics. Of course the poverty she sees every day and the dysfunctional family situations don't help with the alcoholism either. So, is it possible that genetics play a role? I think so. I think stating that it in no way plays a role is erroneous and judgemental. And I certainly don't think that the native peoples have been treated fairly. But that is a whole other debate for another time.
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She's not a "kid".
She's an adult, who chose to present herself as an Addictions Counselor.
Hopefully she'll come to her senses and find work with an ethical employer before her reputation is really tarnished.
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I certainly by no means intended racism in my comments, I myself have some native american ancestry from my mothers side.
Wasn't implying that you were, consciously anyway. Anyone who puts forth the notion that they are genetically predisposed to alcoholism is perpetuating racial oppression. Just as those who use the study "proving" blacks were intellectually inferior to support their racism, even though it was later refuted.
So, is it possible that genetics play a role? I think so. I think stating that it in no way plays a role is erroneous and judgemental.
No judgement. No blame. Because one doesn't subscribe to the "genetic predisposition" bullshit, doesn't imply they are "blaming the victim". It is what it is and I believe decades of economic and racial oppression is the predisposing factor.
They're doing the best they can, and it's my hope that they some how, some way, they are able to find some peace and economic stability.
There is a higher percentage of blacks in prison for non-violent drug offenses. Think they're more 'genetically predisposed' to substance abuse? Are Europeans 'genetically predisposed' to be racists? As the economic oppressors, they do have the means to buy a "get out of jail free" card as needed.
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"All Peer Group Counselors are full-time and are clinically trained, holding a Master’s Degree or higher." (directly from the HLA website)
it appears to me that the biggest thing wrong with this is that hla itself states ON IT'S WEBSITE the above...and doesn't it say that this lovely bride holds a bs and is WORKING on her masters?
hmmm...just another hla lie!
also...regarding the genetics thing...just a thought...could be enviroment...if all you see is mom and dad drinking, drugging or over eating...and feeding you all of the same things that they do or eat wouldn't that be a better pre-cursor to what you will end up like other that what your genes say?? sure heart disease, hypertension, diabetes are all genetic...but mostly it is your environment tht is going to determine if those genetics are going to play an even larger part in what you are going to end up doing...think about it before you bash it...yes, genetics plays a part in true diseases, but a lot of those "genetic predispositions" like alcholosim and obesity have to do with your surroundings growing up...NOT ALL so don't come on saying "well, i have a friend whose parents were the pinicles of society, never drank or overate but their kids are all drug addicts and/or obese"...yes, happens...but also in those cases...look at what goes on behing closed doors...abuse of any kind? bullying, etc...lots of reasons besides the "genetice" one...even in the "best of families"
so whatever...take it for what it is...
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One other thing that is occuring on a higher level on the reservation is Diabetes. My mom says a very large percentage have it, I believe the type II version. We have discussed this particular issue because type I diabetes runs in my family (my father, 3 cousins, my great grandfather, etc) and 2 people had type II. theres been a debate about whether Type I is genetic, which, I feel it is. About type II though, that is usually caused by diet, being overweight, etc. But this is the type that the Cherokee have in a larger percentage. So, for this item, I was thinking maybe it was their diet, but, I found a study while looking up the alcoholism study yesterday that stated that the same genes that can cause alcohol to not be processed well is the same gene they feel that can cause type II diabetes. It has to do with sugar metabalization. I think its a possibility, but then again type II is a preventable disease so I think it just maybe makes you more of a candidate, not necesarily a definate thing that you would get diabetes. And just because you may have a genetic possibility to become more of an alcoholic (the idea that some dispute), doesnt mean you would have to become one, just makes you slightly more prone to it if you choose to drink. JMHO.
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MODS: This is The Who posting more spam! Let's give this asshole the final heave-ho, shall we? Please DELETE The Who's recent anonymous postings and ban his new IP address.
Agreed!! Why dont we go one better and delete any post that disagrees with our beliefs (spam), especially if they dont have the guts to get a log-in (like the guest above mentioned). Give them one warning and then ban their friggin asses after 3 posts and boot their butts into never-never land, if they dont change their position.
This will clear the board for the rest of us who know whats good for everyone else.
Who, shut the fuck up. You were banned because you derail every thread with spam (repeated postings) and because you lie and edit posts afterwards (and then deny it) and lie about the mods altering or deleting your posts.
It just goes to show what a sick compulsion you have. You have such a strong need to continue to hang out here because you have been rejected at every turn in the real world - your kid, your wife, your employer, etc. This is your idea of a "power play" - "I'll post here even if I have been BANNED! THEY can't tell ME what to do!"
Who, you are a pathetic, craven loser. "Get a life!" "Get over it!" And go away.
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I don't know how I didn't figure out immediately that this is The Who. I should have known from the start, based on the ridiculous logic paired with that seemingly calm, reasonable tone.
Now I'm laughing, because at one point in this discussion, Who, you said that posts like mine damage the credibility of everyone this site. That has got to be the biggest joke ever, coming from someone whose credibility was been completely destroyed. You have been proven multiple times to be a liar and program supporter, even though your kid didn't attend HLA and you have no reason to be so interested in the place.
And please, get off your high horse about re-posting the bridal announcement. I posted it, it was public information, and if people didn't want the public to see it and possibly analyze it, then they shouldn't have put it in the paper in the first place.
I will say this: maybe she had some previous experience working with addicted people. If so, that's great.
Thank you. I think it is important not to pre judge people.
They condone those actions by continuing to work there.
There are people who volunteer during war time to help the wounded and they are totally against the war. Doesn’t mean they should be humiliated for their choice. They feel they can help and make a difference in another person’s life, even in bad situations.
Give it some thought next time is all I ask.
I notice you addressed only the parts of my last post that you wanted to address. How typical. I will assume that since you didn't address the other parts of my post, that you finally agree with what I said originally - and if you've forgotten what that is, let me remind you:
HLA EMPLOYS UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE AND LIES ABOUT IT TO THE PARENTS.
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One other thing that is occuring on a higher level on the reservation is Diabetes. My mom says a very large percentage have it, I believe the type II version. We have discussed this particular issue because type I diabetes runs in my family (my father, 3 cousins, my great grandfather, etc) and 2 people had type II. theres been a debate about whether Type I is genetic, which, I feel it is. About type II though, that is usually caused by diet, being overweight, etc. But this is the type that the Cherokee have in a larger percentage. So, for this item, I was thinking maybe it was their diet, but, I found a study while looking up the alcoholism study yesterday that stated that the same genes that can cause alcohol to not be processed well is the same gene they feel that can cause type II diabetes. It has to do with sugar metabalization. I think its a possibility, but then again type II is a preventable disease so I think it just maybe makes you more of a candidate, not necesarily a definate thing that you would get diabetes. And just because you may have a genetic possibility to become more of an alcoholic (the idea that some dispute), doesnt mean you would have to become one, just makes you slightly more prone to it if you choose to drink. JMHO.
makes sense, becouse alchohol is oxidized into acetaldehyde, which is a type of sugar [ i think].
read this, if you paid attention in chem class:
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/ ... olmet.html (http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/642alcoholmet.html)
(on the bottom of that webpage)
"
A central role in the toxicity of alcohol may be played by acetaldehyde itself. Although the liver converts acetaldehyde into acetic acid, it reaches a saturation point where some of it escapes into the blood stream. The accumulated acetaldehyde exerts its toxic effects by inhibiting the mitochondria reactions and functions. The alcoholic is a victim of a vicious circle; a high acetaldehyde level impairs mitochondria function, metabolism of acetaldehyde to acetic acid decreases, more acetaldehyde accumulates, and causes further liver damage--hepatitis and cirrhosis.
Recent investigations have suggested that acetaldehyde may be responsible for the development of alcohol addiction. Acetaldehyde in the brain may inhibit enzymes designed to convert certain nerve transmitters from aldehydes to acids. The nerve transmitters that accumulate may then react with the acetaldehyde to form compounds which are startlingly similar to certain morphine-type compounds"
i agree with deborah that the alchoholism among NA's was primarily a product of "white man's oppression", along with learned behaviors. But i am positive that there is also a biological ink.
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I posted it, it was public information, and if people didn't want the public to see it and possibly analyze it, then they shouldn't have put it in the paper in the first place.
What you did was wrong and in bad taste. You shouldn’t disrespect other people you don’t know. The announcement was made public and was intended to share their celebration of marriage.
HLA EMPLOYS UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE AND LIES ABOUT IT TO THE PARENTS.
We know, you have exposed them, you have all the bridal announcements, on back up disc, as proof. Your source of information has amazed us parents. Imagine if the word gets out and prospective parents find out that HLA is hiring counselors with degrees in Psychology and others with double majors.
HLA should pray the cook doesn’t get married and expose to the world that he has a background in nutrition. That would open a whole new level of questions… is he certified by the state? If he isn’t we should expose them and shut the school down?
::hatter::
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Yeh, if they'd return to their traditional diet they'd probably be fine.
Diabetes was not always a concern for the Pimas. It has only been in the years that followed World War II that the Pimas health has been deteriorating (Marchland 2). In the past sixty years diabetes has been the biggest killer of the Pima people (Marchland 1). Coincidently, it has been these same sixty years that the Pimas have adopted a more Western way of life. It can be argued that without the influence of the outside world, the Pimas would not be suffering from diabetes.
According to Ravussin, American farmers diverted the water supply of the Pimas, and they could no longer grow their crops (Marchland 1). It was a terrible time for the Pimas. They suffered from starvation and poverty. They were malnourished and instead of their healthy diet, they began to eat U.S. government rations that consisted of high quantities of sugar, lard and white flour (Marchland 1).
Mercola offers information suggesting diet specifications and exercise advice. In the week of May 19, 2001, Mercola warns his readers “not to eat grains” (Mercola, 2). This is the type of information that can make a difference for someone who is unaware of how his or her diet affects them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz5RAHJLG5k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz5RAHJLG5k)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9yKjJVqHyc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9yKjJVqHyc)
The typical Arizona Pima spends twenty-seven hours less a week doing physical activity than the Mexican Pimas (Sevilla 2). With the amount of exercise the Mexican Pimas get, they are in much better shape than the Arizona Pimas (Sevilla 2). Obesity is not a problem for them and because of that, diabetes isn’t a problem for them either. The comparison between the two tribes show that even though the genetic makeup is the same for both, it is the lifestyle that makes the difference. Even though the Mexican Pimas are more physically active, they eat the same foods as the Arizona Pimas. So if the Arizona Pimas eat less fat and exercise more than they do, they should be able to enjoy the same health as their Mexican brothers. So couldn’t a change in lifestyles be the answer to the Arizona Pimas’ strife? The answer is yes. So couldn’t a change in lifestyles be the answer to the Arizona Pimas’ strife? The answer is yes. The only problem is that once a person has grown accustomed to modern amenities, the amenities are almost impossible to give up. It is also very difficult to give up foods that are fast and delicious, no matter how bad they are for you.
http://tinyurl.com/2kvzzy (http://tinyurl.com/2kvzzy)
http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/p ... besity.htm (http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/obesity/obesity.htm)
Just as the study with Mexican Americans who were experiencing a high incidence of gallballder issues. They ate their traditional diet (corn, beans, cheese made the traditional way, squash, etc) and saw drastic improvement.
Still looking for the gene that compells people to drink alcohol in excess....
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Please re-ban TheWho. He has infected this thread.
Massachusetts is so boring that you have to obsess over Fornits again? Take a hike.
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What you did was wrong and in bad taste. You shouldn’t disrespect other people you don’t know.
In your opinion. You shouldn't tell people you don't know what to do.
HLA EMPLOYS UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE AND LIES ABOUT IT TO THE PARENTS.
Imagine if the word gets out and prospective parents find out that HLA is hiring counselors with degrees in Psychology and others with double majors.
Doesn't HLA advertise that all counselors hold Masters'? MOst of the counselors I've seen hold a Bachelor's or less. Is that not false advertising?
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The opinion which you share with us here and the post you copied and pasted (I didnt read EVERY line of each link, sorry I dont have that kind of time on my hands),
Then don't fucking comment on it if you're not going to even bother to fucking READ it.
:roll:
I am not trying to say that these studies are infallible. Neither is the other side of the debate infallible. But, leave it open to the possibility that genetics play a role in whether or not a person has a predisposition to become an alcoholic.
READING FOR COMPREHENSION!!!!!! ::bangin:: ::bangin::
Yes, genetics may predispose someone to have adverse reactions to alcohol or even to become a full-blown alcoholic. Predispositions. That doesn't mean they're genetically doomed to be alcoholics.
I am not convinced that some alcoholics are just lazy and could put down the bottle if they wanted to. Some would love nothing better, but, lack the ability to whether it be psychological or biological.
It's a matter of when it becomes important enough to the person, not laziness or lack of willpower. When someone who has a drinking problem has truly had enough, they'll stop.
http://www.peele.net/blog/index.html#070706 (http://www.peele.net/blog/index.html#070706)
July 6, 2007
You Know That Gene for Alcoholism?
Nearly two decades ago, Ken Blum said he had found the gene for alcoholism. His claim to have discovered the source of all addiction proved to be premature. But people have been hoping there is a gene for alcoholism and/or addiction ever since.
There isn’t. In Addiction-Proof Your Child, I note: “One surprising result of studying the genome is the discovery of just how little we can tell based on particular genes. Most of the DNA on human chromosomes is not organized into specific genes. Much of this DNA directs the pace at which other genes express themselves. . . . For these reasons and others, simple relationships between individual genes – or even groups of genes – and specific traits are rare.”
The Sunday New York Times wrote: “Last month, a consortium of scientists . . . .found that the human genome might not be a ‘tidy collection of independent genes’ after all, with each sequence of DNA linked to a single function. . . . Instead, genes appear to operate in a complex network, and interact and overlap with one another and with other components in ways not yet fully understood. . . . [T]hese findings will challenge scientists ‘to rethink some long-held views about what genes are and what they do.’”
Stanton Peele
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When did he get banned? Wow. He must have really spammed it. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else get banned. Link to a discussion about it?
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When did he get banned? Wow. He must have really spammed it. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else get banned. Link to a discussion about it?
"Failure to conform" was the cause of the banning.
Flooding was what was written down as the official record.
::hatter::
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What I did was wrong and in bad taste? Mr. Pot, I'd like you to meet Mr. Kettle. You are the epitomy of bad taste, Who. Seriously. You couldn't parent your own child and sent her off to an RTC which, by all accounts, screwed her up worse than she was to being with. Speaking of which, shouldn't you be defending programs over on the ASR thread?
Your ability to take a legitimate thread and try to twist it around to distort facts and distract is amazing. You really don't give up, do you?
And yes, if the person in charge of nutrition was the subject of something PUBLIC THAT ANYONE CAN READ (please, get that fact through your thick skull), then I would hope that people who know what kind of institution HLA is would question that person's credentials. Considering HLA's track record, that would be the smart thing to do.
"Imagine if the word gets out and prospective parents find out that HLA is hiring counselors with degrees in Psychology and others with double majors." Your own words. Yet HLA states that they only hired counselors with MASTER'S DEGREES. What is so hard for you to understand here?
I posted it, it was public information, and if people didn't want the public to see it and possibly analyze it, then they shouldn't have put it in the paper in the first place.
What you did was wrong and in bad taste. You shouldn’t disrespect other people you don’t know. The announcement was made public and was intended to share their celebration of marriage.
HLA EMPLOYS UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE AND LIES ABOUT IT TO THE PARENTS.
We know, you have exposed them, you have all the bridal announcements, on back up disc, as proof. Your source of information has amazed us parents. Imagine if the word gets out and prospective parents find out that HLA is hiring counselors with degrees in Psychology and others with double majors.
HLA should pray the cook doesn’t get married and expose to the world that he has a background in nutrition. That would open a whole new level of questions… is he certified by the state? If he isn’t we should expose them and shut the school down?
::hatter::
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When did he get banned? Wow. He must have really spammed it. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else get banned. Link to a discussion about it?
"Failure to conform" was the cause of the banning.
Bullshit!!!! There are plenty of people on here who don't "conform" and no one has ever gotten banned before. What the fuck are you doing back here?
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This is you----> ::bangin:: The guy with the hammer is TheWho.
Anyway... Since he just admitted it is him posting, please re-ban him and remove his posts.
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...You are the epitomy of bad taste, Who. Seriously. You couldn't parent your own child and sent her off to an RTC which, by all accounts, screwed her up worse than she was to being with.....
Now dont you feel better? You were able to vent. Now you dont have to spend the rest of the day searching for bridal announcements or other ways to dump your hostility on people trying to make a positive difference in other peoples lives.
Have some decaf tea and reflect on our conversation today.
::hatter::
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...You are the epitomy of bad taste, Who. Seriously. You couldn't parent your own child and sent her off to an RTC which, by all accounts, screwed her up worse than she was to being with.....
Now dont you feel better? You were able to vent. Now you dont have to spend the rest of the day searching for bridal announcements or other ways to dump your hostility on people trying to make a positive difference in other peoples lives.
Have some decaf tea and reflect on our conversation today.
Why are you back here?
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Oh, I'm reflecting alright. I'm reflecting on just how much of a dumbass you are. And I'm laughing at the fact that you only respond to the parts of my posts that you want to respond to, because somehow you think that other people won't notice that your arguments hold no merit if you distract from the topic.
And not that it's your business, but I didn't go searching for that bridal announcement. It popped up in my inbox. Thanks to the wonders of modern technology, you can go to Google and type in certain phrases as alerts. When that phrase is found in the news, you get an email alerting you and linking you to the article. That is how I keep on top of current HLA news.
On another note, I'd really appreciate it if you stopped telling me what to do. Don't judge people, don't post PUBLIC INFORMATION, go reflect on our conversation...I mean, your own kid wouldn't listen to you, so what makes you think that I will?
...You are the epitomy of bad taste, Who. Seriously. You couldn't parent your own child and sent her off to an RTC which, by all accounts, screwed her up worse than she was to being with.....
Now dont you feel better? You were able to vent. Now you dont have to spend the rest of the day searching for bridal announcements or other ways to dump your hostility on people trying to make a positive difference in other peoples lives.
Have some decaf tea and reflect on our conversation today.
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I'm also reflecting on the fact that, in spite of your poor logic and attempts at distraction, the fact remains that HLA hires people who are not qualified to provide counseling to troubled teens.
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Here is one article I found regarding Genes and the role they play in alcoholism
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=26119 (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26119)
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Oh, I'm reflecting alright. I'm reflecting on just how much of a dumbass you are. And I'm laughing at the fact that you only respond to the parts of my posts that you want to respond to, because somehow you think that other people won't notice that your arguments hold no merit if you distract from the topic.
I think if we drop all the name calling and hostility, let the dust settle a little we can agree to disagree whether or not HLA is effective for all the kids that go thru their program, but the information brought forth whether thru bridal announcements or HLA’s web site makes it clear that HLA hires and maintains a good staff of people who have degrees in the appropriate fields for the work they do.
If you look at a cross section of the staff and compare it to industry standards I think you will find that they equal or exceed the national norm. HLA has joined the ranks of many others in becoming licensed and submitted to oversight by the state. I have always been on the fence on this issue and I personally don’t see this as a “value added” step, but am aware there are parents who might feel more comfortable knowing there are state controlled checks and balances in place and this will allow HLA to further grow and expand their market share in this area. But this discussion is probably better off being saved for another thread...... I dont want to drive this off topic.
Sorry if I riled you up, but I just don’t think it is necessary to reach into another’s personal life and extract information for the purpose of fighting a corporation or business. Employees need to be insulated from this especially if they don’t have a say in how the ship is steered. For example if the head of HLA contributes corporate funds to a “Pro-life” group (for example), I don’t think it would be fair or justified to ridicule or harass all the employees that work there if you happen to disagree with the pro-life position.
Give your actions a day or two to digest; I think you will see what is being said. No need to apologize to anyone, but just be careful how you treat people ( that you don’t know) in the future. You could do harm that your don’t realize or intend to.
::hatter::
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, but the information brought forth whether thru bridal announcements or HLA’s web site makes it clear that HLA hires and maintains a good staff of people who have degrees in the appropriate fields for the work they do. :evil: If you look at a cross section of the staff and compare it to industry standards I think you will find that they equal or exceed the national norm. HLA has joined the ranks of many others in becoming licensed and submitted to oversight by the state. :evil:
besides the obvious fact that this guy is a higher-up at hla, let me pick apart this individual in just a few short sentences. The entire industry is based on archaic ideas and standards, with very little ethical oversight. you may be the "best" or as it was once put "the Harvard of TBSs", but you're still the best of the worst. and last time i checked HLA is not yet fully accredited, not yet properly overseen by the goverment, and is still in cahoots with all the wrong organizations. when i see a third party individual preferably on a federal payroll who is forbiden from taking any money or favors from HLA present on campus at least 40% of the time and able to take complaints from any student whenever a student or the overseer wishes, then i'll shut up. untill then, you're still corrupt.
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Oh, I'm reflecting alright. I'm reflecting on just how much of a dumbass you are. And I'm laughing at the fact that you only respond to the parts of my posts that you want to respond to, because somehow you think that other people won't notice that your arguments hold no merit if you distract from the topic.
I think if we drop all the name calling and hostility, let the dust settle a little we can agree to disagree whether or not HLA is effective for all the kids that go thru their program, but the information brought forth whether thru bridal announcements or HLA’s web site makes it clear that HLA hires and maintains a good staff of people who have degrees in the appropriate fields for the work they do.
If you look at a cross section of the staff and compare it to industry standards I think you will find that they equal or exceed the national norm. HLA has joined the ranks of many others in becoming licensed and submitted to oversight by the state. I have always been on the fence on this issue and I personally don’t see this as a “value added” step, but am aware there are parents who might feel more comfortable knowing there are state controlled checks and balances in place and this will allow HLA to further grow and expand their market share in this area. But this discussion is probably better off being saved for another thread...... I dont want to drive this off topic.
Sorry if I riled you up, but I just don’t think it is necessary to reach into another’s personal life and extract information for the purpose of fighting a corporation or business. Employees need to be insulated from this especially if they don’t have a say in how the ship is steered. For example if the head of HLA contributes corporate funds to a “Pro-life” group (for example), I don’t think it would be fair or justified to ridicule or harass all the employees that work there if you happen to disagree with the pro-life position.
Give your actions a day or two to digest; I think you will see what is being said. No need to apologize to anyone, but just be careful how you treat people ( that you don’t know) in the future. You could do harm that your don’t realize or intend to.
::hatter::
No need to apologize to anyone??? You're damn right there is no need for me to apologize to anyone, because I did not do anything wrong in pointing out that HLA hires unqualified people. You are one arrogant, pompous person if you think for one second that I would consider apologizing to the likes of you.
I did not "reach into another's personal life." I am going to say this one more time: WHAT I POSTED WAS PUBLIC INFORMATION. PUBLIC. Is there some reason why you cannot seem to comprehend this very simple fact?
And once again, your logic is ridiculous. I'm not even going to address your example of a boss supporting the pro-life movement - it's so far off base and contributes absolutely nothing to this discussion. Not to mention that I did not ridicule or harass anyone.
You think HLA hires qualified people? That is a joke, and you are a joke. The plain, simple fact is that they ADVERTISE that they hire people with MASTER'S DEGREES, and they routinely hire people WHO DO NOT HAVE THAT QUALIFICATION.
Don't worry your little head about riling me up. Insignificant people such as yourself are not worth getting riled up about. But I won't have you derailing this topic with your nonsense.
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But I won't have you derailing this topic with your nonsense.
Wow, chill little lady. I just happen to not agree with you and think your approach is off base and uncalled for. As far as a derailment.... the topic is "Funny Article", although most of us dont find it funny, I think I have adhered to the initial subject and intent.
Get some sleep and enjoy a fresh approach in the a.m.
::hatter::
...
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But I won't have you derailing this topic with your nonsense.
Wow, chill little lady. I just happen to not agree with you and think your approach is off base and uncalled for. As far as a derailment.... the topic is "Funny Article", although most of us dont find it funny, I think I have adhered to the initial subject and intent.
Get some sleep and enjoy a fresh approach in the a.m.
::hatter::
...
"Little lady?" Wow, you really could not be a more arrogant prick.
I find it funny that you think you know my gender.
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I don't understand the problem here, Mods. Get this guy off the site. What? 300 pages of useless drivel isn't enough of a monument to this moron's ego? GET RID OF THEWHO. He's been banned. Keep him banned. I'm SO SICK of this guy humiliating, degrading and belittling survivors of heinous abuse. GET HIM GONE ALREADY.
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I don't understand the problem here, Mods. Get this guy off the site. What? 300 pages of useless drivel isn't enough of a monument to this moron's ego? GET RID OF THEWHO. He's been banned. Keep him banned. I'm SO SICK of this guy humiliating, degrading and belittling survivors of heinous abuse. GET HIM GONE ALREADY.
I don’t see where this thread has anything to do with abuse, unless you consider posting a persons wedding announcement for the joy and purpose of humiliating her for all her friends and family to witness abusive.
Does anyone see humiliation, degradation and belittlement? So does getting banned work both ways? Or is this held solely for those who disagree with the majority?
Shouldn’t we apply this standard equally to all posters?
::hatter::
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:wstupid: you've already been banned, asshole. now we just need some enforcement.
admin, please do your job!
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I don't understand the problem here, Mods. Get this guy off the site. What? 300 pages of useless drivel isn't enough of a monument to this moron's ego? GET RID OF THEWHO. He's been banned. Keep him banned. I'm SO SICK of this guy humiliating, degrading and belittling survivors of heinous abuse. GET HIM GONE ALREADY.
I don’t see where this thread has anything to do with abuse, unless you consider posting a persons wedding announcement for the joy and purpose of humiliating her for all her friends and family to witness abusive.
Does anyone see humiliation, degradation and belittlement? So does getting banned work both ways? Or is this held solely for those who disagree with the majority?
Shouldn’t we apply this standard equally to all posters?
Yep, that girl is probably totally humiliated that her PUBLIC wedding announcement was re-posted elsewhere on the Internet. I mean, really, she had such a legitimate expectation of privacy! :roll: Not to mention that I'm sure she and all of her family and friends are trolling Fornits and are now outraged. Please. Unless you know this family personally, spare us all your righteous indignation.[/i]
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I went onto the HLA website and, low and behold, the faculty listing does not show a Danielle Amigone or Danielle Howard. Perhaps she is a recent hire and they have not gotten around to updating the website yet. Or perhaps they are not putting her information up there because it is proof that they hired an addiction counselor without a master's degree or license. Which is more likely? Considering HLA's track record, I'd say the latter.
Also interesting - Daryl Beard is listed as the Counselor Coordinator. His bio states that he is a National Certified Counselor. But when I went to the association's website and searched for him, he was not listed in the database as a nationally certified counselor. See for yourself:
http://www.nbcc.org/counselorfind (http://www.nbcc.org/counselorfind)
Scroll down to the bottom, type in his name and set the state for Georgia. No match.
Then of course there is Clay Erickson, the Director of Addiction Services. He earned a Master of Arts from Antioch University. A Master of Arts in what, exactly? Why wouldn't they list his major, like they did for everyone else? Did they just forget, or did they omit it on purpose because it is not counseling-related? He is also not licensed as a Substance Abuse Professional in Georgia - see for yourself.
http://naadac.org/sap/list.php?StateID=GA (http://naadac.org/sap/list.php?StateID=GA)
Too many "ifs" and "maybes" in my opinion.
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Be sure to report these violations of Georgia law to ORS. Using unlicensed drug counselors is illegal and violates the terms of HLA's conditional temporary license.
Please contact Keith Bostick at ORS to lodge a formal complaint.
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There's more to Erickson's story
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=16983 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=16983)
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yeah daryl is definitely not qualified. He's one of the most [seemingly] uneducated individuals working for HLA. although he still is a decent guy and i dont have any beef with him, He's one of the "whitest" black people i have ever met. dont call me a racist becouse i'm not being racist, you know exactly what i mean.
and about the reposting of a news article on the net, it's the internet. if something is posted on public domain without a copyright then it's fair game. i mean, come on, do you really think the world's spoiled celebrities like getting photographed every second of their life, to have the pictures of their day to day lives up on the net and tabloids? no. of course not. some do, but most hate it. but the reason it keeps on happening is becouse it's legal, and there is a demand for the celebrities. it may be unethical but it's 100% legal. HLA is also very unethical, but also (mostly, for now) legal. we will continue to use our legal right to post stuff on this site, regardless of how unethical the posts are, to clean up HLA. it's called fighting fire with fire dimwit. and there's alot of demand for our fire. once HLA cleans up it's act there wont be anymore demand for my, or our "fire"; then we will shut up and stop posting people's wedding announcements on this board.
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One other thing that is occuring on a higher level on the reservation is Diabetes. My mom says a very large percentage have it, I believe the type II version. We have discussed this particular issue because type I diabetes runs in my family (my father, 3 cousins, my great grandfather, etc) and 2 people had type II. theres been a debate about whether Type I is genetic, which, I feel it is. About type II though, that is usually caused by diet, being overweight, etc. But this is the type that the Cherokee have in a larger percentage. So, for this item, I was thinking maybe it was their diet, but, I found a study while looking up the alcoholism study yesterday that stated that the same genes that can cause alcohol to not be processed well is the same gene they feel that can cause type II diabetes. It has to do with sugar metabalization. I think its a possibility, but then again type II is a preventable disease so I think it just maybe makes you more of a candidate, not necesarily a definate thing that you would get diabetes. And just because you may have a genetic possibility to become more of an alcoholic (the idea that some dispute), doesnt mean you would have to become one, just makes you slightly more prone to it if you choose to drink. JMHO.
http://www.peele.net/faq/native.html (http://www.peele.net/faq/native.html)
Further Reading
Does the disease concept of alcoholism benefit Native Americans?
Hello, Dr. Stanton Peele!
I, as have many Native American people, have been tremendously affected by the consequences of alcohol addiction running rampant through my family, my clan, my tribe, and friends and family in other tribes.
Please tell us: What is the rate of alcohol addiction among women of child-bearing age on our reservations, and what is the rate of F.A.S. amidst the new-borns?
What is available for our child-bearing-aged women, and how can we grandmothers step in to help protect our heritage (the children)?
Can you direct me to more information aimed at statistics for individual reservations? Perhaps we can learn from those experiencing a reprieve as well as those who are not achieving positive results.
Is there a web site that allows us to converse and compare programs and ideas?
Thank You for your time;
Sincerely,
Wendy
Dear Wendy:
I am not an expert on this topic, but many people are very concerned. You need to contact groups working with native American alcoholism — I do know the rate of FAS is many (30!) times as high among native Americans as among Whites.
What my site is about — and I believe it applies doubly to Native Americans — is whether telling people they are born with the disease of alcoholism is helpful. I say not.
Best, Stanton
Dear Dr. Peele:
Thank you for responding to my note. I agree that the disease-model is not positive for my people for a number of reasons.
First, it gives an excuse: "Yes, there's something wrong with us and we can't help ourselves, so let's just go out and fulfill our destiny."
Second, the disease model ignores many of the real issues surrounding Indigenous people in the United States. For example, aside from being coerced from our ancestral lands and needing to adjust to new diets (which results in all varieties of bodily illnesses through several generations), many of our family members, clan members, tribal members died from new diseases, malnutrition, bounties, and so forth.
We wrapped our remaining relatives closely to us, tolerating addictions and other maladaptive behaviors simply to hold on to those few who remained. In 1979, thanks to Jimmy Carter's Freedom of Religion Act, we were finally given permission to pray in our own way without being jailed for doing so, then in the late eighties, the U.S. government finally stopped removing children — for educational purposes (the Carlisle School) — from their reservations at the age of six.
It has been a long holocaust for us, and I'd say my people need treatment for generations of pent up anger, post traumatic stress, horrific depression, and low self-esteem for having been so helpless to prevent what happened. Further, because the children — all but a few who were hidden — were regularly removed over several generations, I'd say we also could use parenting skills!
No, the disease model only serves to prolong our substance abuse difficulties. We as a people fairly collectively believe that our hope and our heritage lie within the children. If this is so, then surely our hope lies within ourselves to model the laying aside of addictions and to begin to demonstrate honor and sober integrity.
Yet as I reach out across the web, I'm finding no statistics, no real research, no positive connections, hence, I must be searching the wrong venues.
Again, thank you for your time, and further, thank you for you.
Sincerely,
Wendy Whitaker
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Read this
http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Drinking-My ... 0520067541 (http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Drinking-Myth-Alcoholism-Disease/dp/0520067541)
(http://http://content.cdlib.org/dynaxml/data/13030/vm/ft7g5007vm/figures/ft7g5007vm_cover.jpg)
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Here is one article I found regarding Genes and the role they play in alcoholism
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=26119 (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26119)
COGA is financed by NIAAA
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/ (http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/)
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/ResearchInform ... ojcoga.htm (http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/ResearchInformation/ExtramuralResearch/SharedResources/projcoga.htm)
They've been goin at this since 1989. What takes so long to find 'proof' or dispell the theory? That's 18 years, 4,734 working days and they haven't found diddly? Why does the government waste our tax dollars on such utter BS?
What if by some stroke of genius they did find a (legitimate) 'genetic' link to alcoholism??? WHAT would they do with that information? HOW might it possibly be useful to the 'potential' alcoholic?
Is this more of the futuristic, Equilibrium, Minority Report, Bible thumper dream for a "perfect" world? If that's the goal.... they're going about it alll wrong.