Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Act UP on July 18, 2007, 12:35:23 PM
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How do we keep the public's attention on the corruption and maltreatment of our children?
How do we undo the brainwashing of those like Dr. Phil?
I don't believe that everyone is motivate by greed and power - but many rotten apples have spoiled the "industry".
This needs to stop being an INDUSTRY and realize it serves human beings, it needs to become ........?
In response to a previous thread - it all comes down to money! The good, the bad and the ugly - the fat cats (no insult intended to felines) all want to make money and drive their big fancy Lexasses.
I wondered what $450+ pd bought - it certainly was not the salaries they paid the people out in the field, nor for upkeep. They have turned what might have been a morally commendable goal to help others in need - to filling their greedy hands. Leaving others to pay for their immoral behavior with blood, sweat and tears.
Is it idealism that brings a (young) therapist to a program? What makes them stay once their eyes are open? I don't believe it is an innate desire for power and control. Is it that they are brainwashed and beaten down and feel impotent - that they take it out on the clients?
I am not a professional, just a parent, and I don't know what it would really take to make this work... but -
I have a dream of not just a good program but a great program. One run by licensed mental health professionals, families, communities, survivors - who believe they can make a positive and meaningful difference in the lives they touch.
The program would have to be 100% transparent to all, all the time, anytime.
It would be a leader on the cutting edge of mental health care, using evidence based practices, collaborative team building with all the stakeholders, clients, families and communities.
Serving all children and families in need, regardless of class.
Everyone involved would be highly and consistently trained and supported. There would be continual on-going training. All would be accountable for their actions, being role models and working towards creating that elusive therapeutic milieu.
The therapists (licsw, psy d, mhc)- would be involved every step pf the way. No once or twice a week bs. They would be an integral part of what was going on, they would be part of daily life, they would be involved in the nitty gritty, they would be there to support and encourage growth. They would be the front line.
The environment would foster cause and effect, accountability, and the means for growth. It would not be punitive but compassionate and supportive.
Demeaning & abusive behavior of any kind would be out, unnecessary hardships would be out. The consequences to actions would be appropriate for all, not just for the kids.
Family involvement is essential - without family work the child's growth would be in a vacuum, unrealistic, unsustainable and without meaning.
It rained very hard last night. I woke up thinking "if my kid was out in the wilderness in this rain, wind, mud, if he were wet and cold, hungry and afraid, depressed and angry - how by any means would this be therapeutic?
In the mean time, I was touched by a post (I think by a dad) talking about getting the therapeutic benefits by doing community service (ie Habitats for Humanity) or hiking with your kid on a family vacation. Yeah!
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a) Create a webpage for an emancipation database. Every youth afraid, who is afraid that his or her parent want to ship the person away should be able to register at the webpage, get advice how to fill out the necessary papers and file them at two friend with date.
The person then needs to email the database every day. If the person fails to do that, emails will be send to the friend, who will date the papers and send them to the local athorities.
The parents will be contacted for a hearing. Excuses like discrimination angainst reglious belief or sexual orientation even if it is totally made up would be something that the authorities would listen to and order the child back for an interview.
b) Create youtube film about a staged pickup of a child with a little pretended violence combined with use of handcuffs and leg-irons. If you type "pillars of hope" on google video, you will see that someone has put small videoclips out in a effort to tell a story about false accusations against the owner of Dundee Ranch. It is a effort to rewrite the history, so why not show parents and other how a real pickup looks like. It will be a contrast to the movie, the owner of USguides has made with his daughter in the leading role.
c) Please copy www.secretprisonsforteens.dk (http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk) or contribute with new material (Parents and student handbooks are welcome).
d) Upload the contents on the above mentioned webpage on various encyclopaedias on the internet. Participate in the revert war on them.
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What you're describing is a real treatment center, which is completely different from a teen program. Such places do exist. Julie described one last month:
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21803&start=0 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21803&start=0)
Real treatment -- quality care -- has the elements you described. Most importantly, it is voluntary, it has no secrets to hide and it is staffed by qualified, licensed professionals. It does not use punishment or "tough love" techniques to elicit behavioral change.
Real treatment is expensive, and inpatient treatment is the most expensive of all, but also tends to be fairly short-term. Inpatient treatment is a pretty extreme step and should only be used for as long as is necessary to stabilize the patient and send him/her home, to be followed up with outpatient treatment for as long as the patient feels is necessary.
The guy my son sees on an outpatient basis told him at their first meeting, "my goal is to help you get yourself to a place where you don't need me anymore." Real treatment isn't motivated by profit, just as in regular (non-psychiatric) medical practice. You wouldn't go to a doctor who secretly hoped you stayed sick so you would keep paying him, would you? It's no different where mental health care is concerned.
Real treatment doesn't call itself a "school," just as real college-prep boarding schools don't pretend to offer "treatment."
I have no personal knowledge of the place Julie discussed and am in no position to recommend or dis-recommend one treatment option over another. But the place she mentioned is not unique, and you won't find it or others like it by Googling "troubled teen" or "teen help."
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Every abusive program discussed on this forum started this exact same way. Most of them have good intentions, although extremely misguided.
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A beautiful prison is still a prison. Most of these parnets are locking up their kid unnecessarily for truency, pot smoking, being gay, what needs to exist is programs that know how to say no to reactionary parents.
Let's say it togehter:
NO I WIL NOT IMPRISON/ABUSE YOUR KID FOR MONEY JUST BECAUSE YOU CLAIM THEY ARE FUCKED UP!
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Every abusive program discussed on this forum started this exact same way. Most of them have good intentions, although extremely misguided.
This exact same way? Did a WWASPS program ever refuse to accept involuntarily escorted 'patients'? Did they ever limit the maximum stay to 30 days, 60 days, or any limit at all? Did they ever provide full, unsupervised access to advocates, parents, telephones and media? For that matter, did they ever provide real therapy -- did they ever tell a kid, "here's a licensed therapist you can talk to if you want to, but you have no obligation to do so -- ever." Did they ever tell a kid that Group was optional, and if you don't want to attend, then just go hang out and listen to music or find something else to do?
I understand that most if not all survivors here were imprisoned against their will in a place that used tough-love behavior mod tactics to try to break them down and change them. If you've never had "quality care" it's understandably hard to believe it could exist.
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Sometimes kids would rather go to treatment to get away from their parents. Some of these treatment centers just need a little fine tuning.
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The politicians have too much at stake. Liberal "do gooders" think the "alternative" schools are okey dokey w/o even checking to see what they do. Neocons love the get tough approach to the little delinquents. Programs give both sides their talking points.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22346 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22346)
Non-partisan agency boosted Republicans
(they're talking about the DEA)
Non-partisan my ass.
By Stephanie Kirchgaessner in New York
Published: July 18 2007 03:00 | Last updated: July 18 2007 03:00
John Walters, head of the Bush administration's non-partisan drug agency, and his deputies engaged in a campaign blitz on behalf of vulnerable Republican members of Congress ahead of last year's mid-term elections, according to documents released yesterday.
Karl Rove, the chief political strategist for President George W. Bush, singled out the efforts of officials at the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), which shapes US drug policy, at a White House meeting after the congressional election last November.
In documents and e-mails released by Henry Waxman, the Democratic chairman of the chief House oversight committee who is investigating the matter, Douglas Simon, the agency's White House liaison, congratulated officials at the ONDCP for having their "hard work" noticed by Mr Rove.
"The director and deputies deserve the most recognition because they actually had to give up time with their families for the God-awful places we sent them," Mr Simon said in a November 21 e-mail.
Other documents show that at the suggestion of Sara Taylor, the former White House political affairs director, Mr Walters and his deputies attended 20 events in the months leading up to the election for Republicans who were in danger of losing their seats.
Mr Waxman's probe is part of a broader investigation of allegations that federal agencies, including the Department of Justice, the General Services Administration and the Office of the Surgeon General, have been improperly politicised under the Bush administration.
Mr Waxman said in a letter to Ms Taylor that it was not uncommon for political appointees such as Mr Walters to travel to events with lawmakers, but that the "degree of White House control, the number of trips, and the agency involved" were "striking" because it appeared to be inconsistent with the agency's tradition of non-partisanship.
A spokesman for the anti-drug agency yesterday denied it engaged in partisan political activity.
"It is not surprising that more Republicans than Democrats would want to stand with senior officials talking about the administration's success stories [during the campaign season]," a spokesman said.
"We do plenty of events with Democrats and would be happy to do events with Congressman Waxman," (I wish they'd ask LEAP to attend.
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php (http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php)) he added. He declined to comment on a suggestion in Mr Simon's e-mail that the agency was working in concert with the White House ahead of the election.
Mr Waxman's probe is not the first time the ONDCP has come under scrutiny for its political activities. In 2005, the agency was rebuked by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, for producing illegal "covert propaganda" when it distributed fake news reports on the Bush administration's drug policies.
http://www.nospank.net/rehab.htm (http://www.nospank.net/rehab.htm)
DFAF also worked with then-governor Bush on anti-drug programs in Texas, and today claims to have his ear on national drug policy as well. Indeed, Arizona prosecutor and Sembler favorite Rick Romley was on Bush's short list for drug czar. Though Romley wasn't nominated, Bush did tap staunch drug warrior John Walters. The nomination caused Betty Sembler to remark, ".... we have lacked the leadership and support of the White House ... until now."
http://www.dfaf.org/press/detail.php?id=95 (http://www.dfaf.org/press/detail.php?id=95)
(Falls Church, Virginia) – Drug Free America Foundation commends the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) for sponsoring four student drug testing regional summits this year. On March 15, 2006 ONDCP will host their third summit in Falls Church, Virginia at the Fairview Park Marriott, informing community leaders and school officials about the benefits of drug testing.
“These summits are extremely informative to communities considering the implementation of random student drug testing. The benefit of early detection of at-risk students should cut down addiction and ultimately save lives,” commented Calvina Fay, executive director of Drug Free America Foundation, Inc.
http://cannabisnews.com/news/22/thread22183.shtml (http://cannabisnews.com/news/22/thread22183.shtml)
Denver -- The group opposing Amendment 44, which seeks to legalize marijuana for recreational purposes, said Wednesday that a series of lectures will serve as the primary weapon in the campaign.
The lectures by various experts on drugs and addiction will focus on the dangers of marijuana and the effects on the state of legalizing cannabis, said Calvina Fay, executive director of Save Our Society from Drugs.
“Marijuana is much more powerful and much more addictive than it was a generation ago,” Fay said. “The change proposed in Amendment 44 has terrible consequences for our state, particularly for our children.”
Fay’s group, which goes by S.O.S., is based in Florida but is helping lead the charge against Amendment 44.
Members of the coalition include Lt. Gov. Jane Norton and Andrew Barthwell, a Chicago-based doctor and former deputy director for the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy.
In addition to lectures, S.O.S. said it hopes to have money for radio ads, direct mail and computerized phone calls during the campaign.
Fay said the group has raised about $40,000 so far.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22346 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22346)
There are no good ones. Therapy cannot be coerced or forced. Period, end of story.
Parents need to do their fucking jobs and quit expecting the gubment to pick up the slack.
This is the kind of shit that scares the hell out of me.
http://www.character.org/atf/cf/%7B77B3 ... Report.pdf (http://www.character.org/atf/cf/%7B77B36AC3-5057-4795-8A8F-9B2FCB86F3EB%7D/CEP_Tri_Research_Report.pdf)
Character Education: What Is It, How Does it Work, and How Effective is it?
For Policy Makers Based on Emerging Research
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Every abusive program discussed on this forum started this exact same way. Most of them have good intentions, although extremely misguided.
This exact same way? Did a WWASPS program ever refuse to accept involuntarily escorted 'patients'? Did they ever limit the maximum stay to 30 days, 60 days, or any limit at all? Did they ever provide full, unsupervised access to advocates, parents, telephones and media? For that matter, did they ever provide real therapy -- did they ever tell a kid, "here's a licensed therapist you can talk to if you want to, but you have no obligation to do so -- ever." Did they ever tell a kid that Group was optional, and if you don't want to attend, then just go hang out and listen to music or find something else to do?
I understand that most if not all survivors here were imprisoned against their will in a place that used tough-love behavior mod tactics to try to break them down and change them. If you've never had "quality care" it's understandably hard to believe it could exist.
Find me a program discussed on this forum that is anything like what you just said. I'm not sure what part of my statement you are trying to refute.
I like how you assume to know where I have been in my life, can I book a psychic reading with you?
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Some of these treatment centers just need a little fine tuning.
Uh, let me make this perfectly clear.
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Did a WWASPS program ever refuse to accept involuntarily escorted 'patients'? Did they ever limit the maximum stay to 30 days, 60 days, or any limit at all? Did they ever provide full, unsupervised access to advocates, parents, telephones and media? For that matter, did they ever provide real therapy -- did they ever tell a kid, "here's a licensed therapist you can talk to if you want to, but you have no obligation to do so -- ever." Did they ever tell a kid that Group was optional, and if you don't want to attend, then just go hang out and listen to music or find something else to do?
What does WWASP have to do with this discussion?
The treatment reality you colorfully fictionalize in this post doesn't exist.
If it did you would of posted the treatment facility name.
If you really believe this, send your kid on a cruise or something. It's cheaper.
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Every abusive program discussed on this forum started this exact same way. Most of them have good intentions, although extremely misguided.
This exact same way? Did a WWASPS program ever refuse to accept involuntarily escorted 'patients'? Did they ever limit the maximum stay to 30 days, 60 days, or any limit at all? Did they ever provide full, unsupervised access to advocates, parents, telephones and media? For that matter, did they ever provide real therapy -- did they ever tell a kid, "here's a licensed therapist you can talk to if you want to, but you have no obligation to do so -- ever." Did they ever tell a kid that Group was optional, and if you don't want to attend, then just go hang out and listen to music or find something else to do?
I understand that most if not all survivors here were imprisoned against their will in a place that used tough-love behavior mod tactics to try to break them down and change them. If you've never had "quality care" it's understandably hard to believe it could exist.
I think the point was that a lot of these places start out with the best of intentions but we all know where that leads, right? Look, there are two reasons to set up a program. They're delusional and honestly believe therapy can be coerced or they're just in it for the money. THAT'S why they continue to thrive. Both sides of the political spectrum have something to gain by supporting these places.
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Best intentions or not, I seriously doubt that the abusive programs so many of you experienced really started out looking like Julie's description of Ridgeway or my hypothetical anti-WWASPS, or anything else that resembles "quality care." They started out with a tough-love philosophy emphasizing lots of structure & discipline and removal of so-called 'negative' influences. Few if any had a policy of "no escorts," and none of them had a philosophy of "hurry up and discharge these kids so they can go back home where they belong." They would all happily keep kids imprisoned for as long as mommy & daddy paid the bill.
ACT Up is looking for info, and the rest of us are trying to figure out why she keeps her kid in a Program that even she doesn't think is helping him ("benignly negligent").
My point was not that there are any 'good programs.' There aren't. But there is such a thing as 'good treatment,' and it's mostly done on an outpatient basis. Inpatient treatment is very short term and usually in response to a situation where someone is in imminent danger. Just like a medical emergency that requires hospitalization, the goal in a real treatment center should be to stabilize and then discharge the patient as soon as possible.
Parents should view treatment options for their kids the same way they would view treatment options for themselves. Under what conditions would I check myself into this place? What kind of treatment am I going to get for my money? What kinds of rights and freedoms do I have in here? What is the grievance process if I'm not happy with the way things are done? When and how do I check myself out of this place and what happens next (outpatient, etc.)?
If it's not something a parent would sign up for themselves, then it's not something they should sign their child up for either.
And yes, a cruise is a lot cheaper -- and can also be very therapeutic.
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GabbaGabbaGabbaGabba You got it right on!
Thank you.
and excuse me for saying this again.... but am I the only one who gets confused with numerous "guests"?
I am starting to hear the different nuances in your writing though.
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I would like to thank Act Up, for bringing this discussion to the table, because there seems to be some misinformation and misunderstandings about the issue of "residential treatment", and "treatment" in general.
The simplest way to tel the difference is if the "treatment" is voluntary. Involuntary treatment is an oxymoron. Involuntary treatment may in fact be therapeutic, but it is not treatment, it is punishment with side effects.
Remember that in many of the regulated programs like Summit, a good portion of the kids who go there are sent by state or local child welfare agencies. The proliferation of "programs" is not as simple as parents not wanting to do their job, sometimes it's a matter of the parents being incapable of doing their job, and the state being able to find adequate families to do the job for the birth parents.
Regulated programs can be just as programmatic as the unregulated ones, but their funding sources and the way they are able to hang onto the kids for so long are different.
Youth can be in a "program" truly voluntarily (I know of many kids at Summit over 18) along with youth who don't want to be there at all or who are there as an alternative to an even worse program.
For me, the root of the problem is the "treatment" philosophy that programs use. If the philosophy is based on following a program that can't be deviated from, it doesn't matter who's running the "program", the program will be abusive. If the philosophy is based on harm-reduction, keeping kids safe, and only accepting kids who want to be there then actual treatment can occur.
All this is to say to our original poster, the only other treatment center in the New York Metropolitan area that seems to be more well run than Summit is Four Winds in Ketonah (check out their myspace group, the kids make the place sound like summer camp for sad kids). But the bottom line is, does your son want to be there. If he doesn't, find some way to get him home. If he wants to be there, that's great, but start looking into what's available in your community or in the surrounding counties for when he returns home. Summit seems to be good about putting in applications for VESID and making a referral to a local counseling agency, but beyond that they don't do much.
p.s. Next time you see me online, send me a message. I lost your screenname. [/u]
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I would like to thank Act Up, for bringing this discussion to the table, because there seems to be some misinformation and misunderstandings about the issue of "residential treatment", and "treatment" in general.
The simplest way to tel the difference is if the "treatment" is voluntary. Involuntary treatment is an oxymoron. Involuntary treatment may in fact be therapeutic
If you define "therapeutic" as "covering up (not actually fixing) some problems while creating entirely new ones" then, yes, I would agree. If a person does not want help, involuntary treatment implies coersion, the breaking of one's will (via a combination of various pressures and/or thought reform and/or "Behavior Modification"). Nothing is fixed, and more problems are created. Personally, I don't see that as ever being therapeutic.
, but it is not treatment, it is punishment with side effects.
Remember that in many of the regulated programs like Summit, a good portion of the kids who go there are sent by state or local child welfare agencies. The proliferation of "programs" is not as simple as parents not wanting to do their job, sometimes it's a matter of the parents being incapable of doing their job, and the state being able to find adequate families to do the job for the birth parents.
Regulated programs can be just as programmatic as the unregulated ones, but their funding sources and the way they are able to hang onto the kids for so long are different.
Youth can be in a "program" truly voluntarily (I know of many kids at Summit over 18)
There are kids that are truly voluntarily in WWASP programs. It happened in Straight inc. as well. Have you never heard of learned helplessness? What about the brainwashing? What about using parental relationships (threats of being disowned for example) as a bargaining chip? Howabout when they tell you that you have no rights and refuse to let you leave with any of _your_ money, property, clothing, food, water, shelter... Howabout when the local cops are on the take (or are part of the program owner's family). Don't be naive. "voluntary" means absolutely jack shit when we are talking about programs that DO use brainwashing... and talking to a girl who is fresh out of program who says there was no "abuse" (often a term redefined in program, as it becomes normal), who you just happen to be fucking... I don't see how that is ANY indication at all of the quality of a program, and the fact that you seem to know so many kids at Summit, and have such a positive opinion (or simply nothing negative to say) is very suspect to me. Considering you are in New York, the wonderful bastion of safe places... Take a look at this regulated, and still open, place, that just happens to fit kids with shock collars (and gives the parents the remote... LITERALLY).... As well as having automated shock devices. (http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=260664#260664) Yes. Governmnt oversight can work wonders. There is a 27 page report by the NYDE detailing the abuses. The government documented it well, but that's about all they did.
If the philosophy is based on following a program that can't be deviated from, it doesn't matter who's running the "program", the program will be abusive.
Oh. So you mean each individual should have his own unique program to follow. Oh.. Sure. That works just brilliantly. That way, even after you complete your requirements for "level 2" they can still hold you back based on the subjective whim of the staff and/or program owner. After all. Programs have a real motivation to push kids through quickly. :roll:
This industry, everything associated with it, from the deepest of it's cultic roots in Synanon, est, and Lifespring, needs to be cut out and discarded. It is a cancer. Shut down a school and it grows 5 new heads as the staff scatter to the four corners of the earth and start their own programs. Or the former studnets, so convinced that the abuse helped them, who decide they want to dedicate their lives to "helping" others. Some systems are so innately broken that they CANNOT be fixed.
If the philosophy is based on harm-reduction, keeping kids safe, and only accepting kids who want to be there then actual treatment can occur.
Perhaps it can occur, but there is no guarantee at all that it will. Even when there is government oversight is there, it is often riddled with incompetence, corruption, laziness, beurocracy, lack of jurisdiction or a blend of all those wonderful aspects of government. Perhaps... perhaps, if there was competant oversight with an in-depth knowledge of methods of indirect influence, coercion, thought reform, and cult history, there could be a chance of avoiding brainwash camps masquerading as treatment.
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This entire thread is worthless.
Act Up come back after you've pulled your kid out of that unlicensed sky diving facility you have him at now.
Maybe then you will have some shred of credibility and maybe then more people might take you seriously.
Until then make sure your rip cord is properly secured.
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Psy, as someone who is fairly familiar with New York State (as much as I can be given my age-limited experience) your points are well taken, particular the brainwashing effect and the lack of true "voluntary" treatment.
While I don't think I haven't been somewhat critical of Summit, here would be my primary complaints about the faciity:
1. They create a culture of dependence. The fact that 19 and 20 year olds would prefer to stay in a residential program instead of going out and having a life of their own (although they seem to go out and have a pretty good time of things on the weekends) seems odd.
2. The program is ineffective. The same behaviors that were the cause of the placement are still present years after being in the program, although maybe not as extreme (which could just be a result of maturity).
3. There is an appalling lack of supervision and professionalism. There is a history of staff having inappropriate sexual relationships and drug use and sexual activity are rampant on the campus.
As far as I can tell, they are nothing like a WWASP program or Peninsula Village or Judge Rotenberg (as you were referring to with the electroshock before) or one of the OCFS juvie detentions we have in New York State. It would be unfair to lump Summit in that category.
But I think your overall point is the corrosive effect of residential treatment on our society as a whole, and of the undeniable fact that all it would take was for Summit to hire someone who believed in the behavior-mod theory of residential treatment, to turn that place into a mini-WWASP program in no time.
I'd love to talk more, but it's getting late.
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Psy brings up some good points about what does it really mean to be "voluntary." Parents can threaten to disown kids, etc. if they refuse to go, and then there is the brainwashing aspect that starts right away in cultish BM programs. I'm reminded of Nick's character in Over the GW, who's mom at one point early on tried to pull him out but he didn't feel he was ready to leave.
Maybe one of the biggest differences between a program and real treatment is the element of time. Psy mentioned "learned helplessness" and blombro mentioned "culture of dependence," which I think are the same thing. If you live in a bubble long enough, you might learn to become dependent on the security and the daily routine of the bubble -- even when it's an abusive environment. You might learn to fear the real world and freedom of choice.
These are some of the negative side-effects of institutionalization. No matter how qualified or well-intended the doctors, therapists or whoever, if you live in that artificial environment for too long, you're most likely going to suffer some negative effects like "dependence" or loss of confidence.
So real inpatient treatment has to be a short-term deal. Notice that Julie's kid only spent 5 days at Ridgeview. The whole "level1/level2" thing she mentioned about the place bothers me, like it bothers others, but it looked to me like "level1" was meant to be for patients who were going to be admitted and discharged very quickly -- in a matter of days -- where "level2" was more like patients who might be there long enough to start forming relationships -- a few weeks, maybe even a month or so. And the levels didn't sound like BM levels where you lose privileges for not playing the game correctly.
blombro, your complaints about Summit are very eye-opening. If it's a Program, it's not much like the abusive programs usually discussed here. But it doesn't sound like treatment either -- more like daycare for young adults.
Those people should be living in apartments or college dorms, or at home or with relatives if they're unemancipated minors. WTF is the point of wearhousing them like this? Oh yeah, the culture of dependence.
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I have argued this before but why look for an institutional option at all? Most other countries don't unless there is an extremely severe mental illness. There is a great tendency to debate over what constitutes abuse. I honestly think that there may be a few places that are not abusive at all. But this is not the only test. it is whether being removed from society is the answer to the issues that kids face.
Unless there is a direct medical need I dont see how institutionalisation can possibly help anyone to function in wider society because it is no reflection of the world that they have to live in.
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1. They create a culture of dependence. The fact that 19 and 20 year olds would prefer to stay in a residential program instead of going out and having a life of their own (although they seem to go out and have a pretty good time of things on the weekends) seems odd.
2. The program is ineffective. The same behaviors that were the cause of the placement are still present years after being in the program, although maybe not as extreme (which could just be a result of maturity).
3. There is an appalling lack of supervision and professionalism. There is a history of staff having inappropriate sexual relationships and drug use and sexual activity are rampant on the campus.
As far as I can tell, they are nothing like a WWASP program or Peninsula Village or Judge Rotenberg (as you were referring to with the electroshock before) or one of the OCFS juvie detentions we have in New York State. It would be unfair to lump Summit in that category.
There are no shades of gray when it comes to dealing with a program. Either they are a treatment facility or they are a program. Summit is a program and as is such its impossible to separate it from the pack of others. Anything less than a treatment facility is totally unacceptable.
Summit may do somethings right. Does it matter?
No.
They are a program. To much middle ground thinking going on here.
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TS, I find your generalizations are not in touch with the reality as I see things here in New York. The line between "therapy" and "program" is thinner than you may want to admit.
The therapeutic hospital that Julie was referring to could turn into a program just as easily as having a new director come in who believes in a strict level system as a way for measuring patient progress and nothing else, or a state administrator who was enthralled with the psychoeducational model that they use at Boys Town and decided that all of the children's psychiatric hospitals use it (it happened here in NYS only for the state run facilities, but was probably actually an improvement on the old system which was even more programmatic).
It is not helpful to say that "therapeutic inpatient" is good, and "program" is bad, because whenever you concentrate power in the hands of a few over a group of disempowered people, you leave your faith in the fact that the monarch is benign.
Summit is not ideal, but for some it is the difference between being in an abusive or neglectful home environment or an abusive or neglectful foster home or being in a juvenile detention facility or being in a worse residential treatment program. To see the shades of gray is not to condone the taint.
That said, one of the issues that I take with residential treatment as opposed to outpatient services is that you're putting your faith in too many people in positions of power to do the right thing, so the risk of abuse is greater no matter how good the "program" is, which is why I have far more faith in therapeutic foster care (for those times when a youth simply can't deal with their parents) than residential programs. So there are alternatives, even in the most extreme examples (hard drug use, prostitution, fire setting, assault).
Finally, Summit is at its core an educational program, not a therapeutic program. It caters specifically to youth who are in special education (yes many with that label emotionally disturbed) but the reason why I believe many kids stay on past their 18th birthday has to do with getting a high school diploma, which is actually more of an issue with the NYS Department of Education than the school itself.
It might be worth noting that Summit also has a day program, presumably for youth who live in the area.
Anyway, I realized I've rambled a bit, but especially when you're considering programs that are regulated it is impossible to separate the mental health, education, child welfare, and juvenile justice systems, because many of the kids who go to regulated resdiential programs are involved in all 4. Going "home" may not actually be an option due to their legal status. So while a program like Summit might be equally as problematic as JRC, FFS, and Ivy Ridge, treating them in the same way or just lumping them together as "programs" would be like treating an SUV and a Prius the same ways because they are a "car".
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Blombro:
A program is a program--and you can take up as much space as you wish with your senseless argument as you please--and you will not change anyone's opinion here.
And you are a dyed-in-the-wool ED CON ,and you proved that in your original posting when you defended Summit: and you have already offered up your weak defense on this matter.
This poster admits she has her son enrolled at Summit, and that this young man is received no REAL THERAPY. She simply keeps him placed there because Summit is being paid by someone OTHER THAN HERSELF. From her description, Summit may be meeting some of her needs; but few if any of the needs of her child. That's her choice, and she has made it.
She asked for advice---she was given it: She doesn't like the advice offered; and she have to accept it. That's how it works around here.
Summit is a program; and it AIN'T working for this young man.
But no one needs YOU to describe or define a program, either. We know what a program IS.
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Middle ground thinking is ozzing out the pores today.
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The therapeutic hospital that Julie was referring to could turn into a program just as easily as having a new director come in who believes in a strict level system as a way for measuring patient progress and nothing else, or a state administrator who was enthralled with the psychoeducational model that they use at Boys [Town and decided that all of the children's psychiatric hospitals use it (it happened here in NYS only for the state run facilities, but was probably actually an improvement on the old system which was even more programmatic).
That is the parental responsibility to ensure such a thing doesn't happen. Should such a thing transpire then the place is no longer a valid place of care, and then should be flame throwered.
It is not helpful to say that "therapeutic inpatient" is good, and "program" is bad, because whenever you concentrate power in the hands of a few over a group of disempowered people, you leave your faith in the fact that the monarch is benign.
Programs are bad no matter how you try spin it. Programs deprive young men and women of their rights. They strip them of their dignity. They force them to accept care that is unwanted or un-needed.
True inpatient or outpatient treatment does neither. Buyer beware always applies to any such place and no matter where you go careful investigation is needed.
Summit is not ideal, but for some it is the difference between being in an abusive or neglectful home environment or an abusive or neglectful foster home or being in a juvenile detention facility or being in a worse residential treatment program. To see the shades of gray is not to condone the taint.
Shades of gray? It is either right or wrong. Either the place is a program/duckfarm or it isn't. How hard is that to figure out?
That said, one of the issues that I take with residential treatment as opposed to outpatient services is that you're putting your faith in too many people in positions of power to do the right thing, so the risk of abuse is greater no matter how good the "program" is, which is why I have far more faith in therapeutic foster care (for those times when a youth simply can't deal with their parents) than residential programs. So there are alternatives, even in the most extreme examples (hard drug use, prostitution, fire setting, assault).
There is no such as a good program, stop trying to insist that such a thing could ever exist. . I've been in foster care and it blew ass. Try telling a kid abused in a foster care what he or she thinks of your idea. I bet the response will be one you won't forget in a while. We here on Fornits have been seeing an ongoing trend of abusive group homes, foster care, and other so called therapeutic environments popping with greater frequency.
Finally, Summit is at its core an educational program, not a therapeutic program. It caters specifically to youth who are in special education (yes many with that label emotionally disturbed) but the reason why I believe many kids stay on past their 18th birthday has to do with getting a high school diploma, which is actually more of an issue with the NYS Department of Education than the school itself.
Interesting that a facility with many emotionally disturbed kids don't have any sort of proper treatment. No doubt they are to busy making sure all the windows are locked to keep anymore unscheduled parachute jumps don't occur.
It might be worth noting that Summit also has a day program, presumably for youth who live in the area.
Sucks to be the kids in the local area.
Anyway, I realized I've rambled a bit, but especially when you're considering programs that are regulated it is impossible to separate the mental health, education, child welfare, and juvenile justice systems, because many of the kids who go to regulated resdiential programs are involved in all 4. Going "home" may not actually be an option due to their legal status. So while a program like Summit might be equally as problematic as JRC, FFS, and Ivy Ridge, treating them in the same way or just lumping them together as "programs" would be like treating an SUV and a Prius the same ways because they are a "car".
A program is nothing more than a program. I never will accept that lessor degrees of the program is in anyway acceptable than greater degrees. This was thinking some of your own Cafety members applied to Magnolia. They felt that the abuses they went through in their various WWASP programs where so horrific that the corporal punishment doled out by Judge Roy "The Assbeater" Bean was acceptable.
Whether that program be a government or private facility makes no difference to me. Either they provide quality care that isn't forced or they get labeled a damn shithole that needs to be flame throwered.
Forced care is wrong. In the case of Summit they don't even try. Program is at best a warehouse. A warehouse with some desks to pass it off as a school. Funny they did almost the same thing with Straight.
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A warehouse with some desks to pass it off as a school. Funny they did almost the same thing with Straight.
Straight never advertised itself or promoted itself as a school at all. In fact, the opposite. Kids weren't allowed to go to school until or unless they "earned" it and even then it was to local public schools. (Where we were summarily tortured for being the fucking robots that we were terrified into being). Newton was big on talking about how the kids weren't going to school anyway when he was questioned about the logic of pulling kids out for his "therapy".
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A warehouse with some desks to pass it off as a school. Funny they did almost the same thing with Straight.
Straight never advertised itself or promoted itself as a school at all. In fact, the opposite. Kids weren't allowed to go to school until or unless they "earned" it and even then it was to local public schools. (Where we were summarily tortured for being the fucking robots that we were terrified into being). Newton was big on talking about how the kids weren't going to school anyway when he was questioned about the logic of pulling kids out for his "therapy".
Was aiming more for the idea that straight just tossed a bunch of chairs and a desk or two into a warehouse.. and it seems like that is all Summit has done. More of a comparison of the physical rather than therapeutic similarities.
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The love affair with inpatient/outpatient programs IMO is misguided. Yes they strip you of dignity and yes they strip you of your first and most important fundamental right of freedom of choice. You can't leave unless they say you can. Most kids brought in come from the hospital after suicide attempt or juvie anyways so it's not like it's some bastion of freedom within the trouled teen industry. The reason I talk about my private program experience more than my own experiences in hospitasl is because it's less traumatic and easier to talk about. So I can definitely see botyh sides to this argument. They are two different, yet very similar ways of degrading and convincing people they are shit, and need to be pooper scoopered out of the way of the better people in society.
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I deeply take offense at being called an ed-con. I have not once and will never refer a youth or a family to a program that houses youth against their will. My comments about Summit were only to make the point that even the "best" program in NYS isn't good. If you read carefully you should realize my defense isn't a defense at all, it's a backhanded compliment.
My posts have been about solutions. If we flame every single "program" to the ground, where do all the kids go? Foster homes? As you've said they're crap. With their parents? Well, I guess that would be best, force parents to actually learn how to be parents. Let kids roam the streets? What about kids who are adjudicated by the courts? What about kids who are victims of real child abuse?
I don't have any, but to provide information as accurately as I can, and to try to use my power to pull kids out of residential programs back into the community, and keep those who are at risk of being placed out of residential programs, one kid at a time (which I have done already and will continue to do). Furthermore, there is a youth that I'm working with other professionals are recommending for Summit, but I refuse to recommend it. My job (what I actually get paid for) is to make sure that kid stays with their parent.
I would get fired for doing the work of an ed-con and I would choke in my own vomit if I ever did. So I am asking you to retract that smear.
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This should go well. :lol:
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Fo' sho'!
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The love affair with inpatient/outpatient programs IMO is misguided. Yes they strip you of dignity and yes they strip you of your first and most important fundamental right of freedom of choice. You can't leave unless they say you can. Most kids brought in come from the hospital after suicide attempt or juvie anyways so it's not like it's some bastion of freedom within the trouled teen industry. The reason I talk about my private program experience more than my own experiences in hospitasl is because it's less traumatic and easier to talk about. So I can definitely see botyh sides to this argument. They are two different, yet very similar ways of degrading and convincing people they are shit, and need to be pooper scoopered out of the way of the better people in society.
I don't know about a love affair, but the fact is, sometimes people decide they need help. So where do they go? Not to some place that strips them of their dignity or freedom of choice, or that tries to convince them they're shit. That's not treatment -- that's a program! Even if the facility looks like a psych hospital instead of a boarding school, that's still a program. I wouldn't voluntarily go to such a place, would you? Would any adult? Then why should a kid choose to go there?
Real treatment is not part of the TT industry, just like real medical care is not something you get from a con man who pretends to be a doctor. Real treatment is never forced on someone against their will.
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My posts have been about solutions. If we flame every single "program" to the ground, where do all the kids go? Foster homes? As you've said they're crap. With their parents? Well, I guess that would be best, force parents to actually learn how to be parents. Let kids roam the streets? What about kids who are adjudicated by the courts? What about kids who are victims of real child abuse?
Why would you want kids who have suffered real child abuse to go to programs? Don't you think they've suffered enough?
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I hope this Real Abuse thing you mentioned isn't your way of saying there are degrees of abuse. That would be massively full of fail to even utter such a statement.
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The love affair with inpatient/outpatient programs IMO is misguided. Yes they strip you of dignity and yes they strip you of your first and most important fundamental right of freedom of choice. You can't leave unless they say you can. Most kids brought in come from the hospital after suicide attempt or juvie anyways so it's not like it's some bastion of freedom within the trouled teen industry. The reason I talk about my private program experience more than my own experiences in hospitasl is because it's less traumatic and easier to talk about. So I can definitely see botyh sides to this argument. They are two different, yet very similar ways of degrading and convincing people they are shit, and need to be pooper scoopered out of the way of the better people in society.
I don't know about a love affair, but the fact is, sometimes people decide they need help. So where do they go? Not to some place that strips them of their dignity or freedom of choice, or that tries to convince them they're shit. That's not treatment -- that's a program! Even if the facility looks like a psych hospital instead of a boarding school, that's still a program. I wouldn't voluntarily go to such a place, would you? Would any adult? Then why should a kid choose to go there?
Real treatment is not part of the TT industry, just like real medical care is not something you get from a con man who pretends to be a doctor. Real treatment is never forced on someone against their will.
People voluntarily sign up for cults, like scientology that does precisely this. So I think people can get into situation that they might have underestimated, especially when what is being sold is "help". I guess this is more of a wording argument than any, what do we call institutions that are based on tearing down in order to rebuild, right now I suppose we call them programs, but they really do take so many other forms and shapes people should be careful. I would try not to go to such a place voluntarily no, but it does happen all the time. Once you 'sign your rights away' , you can be screwed. This is coming from someone who was forced time and time again, as an adult, to stay in so called treatment facilities by non-judicial means, the doctors just write orders based on lies families tell them. I agree that people need an option to get help, but the word psychiatric hospital is not something I generally think of when trying to brainstorm on real world solutions to the placement all these parents are making. The truth is most of the placements in private programs are unnecessary, the way a kid gets into a psychiatric hospital, and a program, are somewhat different in my experience. A parent cannot walk down to the local inpatient and say my kid is pissing me off, we had a divorce, please take them for two years.. it just doesn't work that way. These private programs I think are a solution to a problem, a parent problem of upper middle class white people, not a problem with their kid. Really any institution that is trying to force kids into a mold is doomed to failure, so then they just blame it on the kids.. oh, they are druggies and addicts, doomed to a lifetime of failure. That way when nobody gets "fixed" they can still keep on selling their product. If any other industry tried this scheme they would of been out of the marketplace long ago, but this is 100% emotion based, facts, reality and reason have no place in the TTI.
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People voluntarily sign up for cults, like scientology that does precisely this. So I think people can get into situation that they might have underestimated, especially when what is being sold is "help". I guess this is more of a wording argument than any, what do we call institutions that are based on tearing down in order to rebuild, right now I suppose we call them programs, but they really do take so many other forms and shapes people should be careful. I would try not to go to such a place voluntarily no, but it does happen all the time. Once you 'sign your rights away' , you can be screwed. This is coming from someone who was forced time and time again, as an adult, to stay in so called treatment facilities by non-judicial means, the doctors just write orders based on lies families tell them. I agree that people need an option to get help, but the word psychiatric hospital is not something I generally think of when trying to brainstorm on real world solutions to the placement all these parents are making. The truth is most of the placements in private programs are unnecessary, the way a kid gets into a psychiatric hospital, and a program, are somewhat different in my experience. A parent cannot walk down to the local inpatient and say my kid is pissing me off, we had a divorce, please take them for two years.. it just doesn't work that way. These private programs I think are a solution to a problem, a parent problem of upper middle class white people, not a problem with their kid. Really any institution that is trying to force kids into a mold is doomed to failure, so then they just blame it on the kids.. oh, they are druggies and addicts, doomed to a lifetime of failure. That way when nobody gets "fixed" they can still keep on selling their product. If any other industry tried this scheme they would of been out of the marketplace long ago, but this is 100% emotion based, facts, reality and reason have no place in the TTI.
Sounds like you're describing AA. AA and the medical profession's complete acceptance of that particular cult has yielded millions of "members" and has ingrained the "powerless" approach into the collective conscience. Most programs or therapy for kids involves some form or another of AA or directly quotes and uses it. People are sent there for aftercare when they've finished one of the handy dandy 30 day programs and if someone objects to going, they're told they're "in denial". This goes much deeper than just the TTI.
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1. I would like to apologize for any of my earlier posting that may have sounded like I was a shill for Summit. I had a good experience with one social worker who was clearly doing things under the schools radar like the referral to a radical mental health support group. I didn't quite expect that a place like Summit would get flamed in this way given the weekend passes and cell phone usage and such, but your points are well taken and again I would like to apologize.
2. I'm not suggesting that we put kids from one abusive situation to another. Given the choice of being raped and having your life constantly threatened by your dad or being neglected by staff at Summit what would you choose? What would the choice be? Maybe some kids would rather take their chances with their pops since that's what they know, and for those kids that choice should be respected, or at least offer them alternative options to the one that I just gave. Widespread system reform is necessary. It's the environment of the system that makes a place like Summit seem attractive from the outside. Creation of more organizations like Misled Youth www.misled-youth.org (http://www.misled-youth.org) might be a start to give youth real choice.
3. By "Real Abuse", I mean abuse as opposed to say something like educational neglect, where child welfare is called in because the kid isn't going to school.
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Given the choice of being raped and having your life constantly threatened by your dad or being neglected by staff at Summit what would you choose?
I would choose legal emancipation. If the court or parents didn't agree, there's always the option of disappearing off the grid until you're 18.
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I really wonder if they think the kids forced into the adolescent psychiatric programs are stupid. Their morning appointment is with a psychiatrist who tells them they have ______ disorder, _______ personality disorder, with ______ symptoms, plus you have ________ to top it off. Then you are told in order to solve these problems you must take 350 mg of ______ per day, 5 mg of______ per day, 25 mg of _______ four times per day, 60MG of _________ six times daily, and a half dozen other ones for good measure. Then that afternoon you are told to sit alone and read the whole NA big book, and write about it. Then at night you find yourself in an NA group, led by volunteer lay people brought in from outside a hospital full of highly educated psychologists who specialize in adolescent mental health. But all this knowledge, all this resource, it's simply brought to the common denominator of NA, all druggies are the same, they use drugs because drugs are evil and they have a disease. So the duality, of being diagnosed with problems by a psychiatrist, and given drugs to solve such problems. Then the same day being taught that chemicals and drugs are not a solution to your problems. It makes no sense, at all. At this point is when a kid realizes the hypocrisy of it all and finally realizes what they really are. A commodity. They are bought, sold, transfered, and experimented on and because of this many other people are making a living and the even higher ups are doing extremely well, the CEO of the companies who own it. It's a pyramid scheme, built on the backs of teenagers just trying to make sense of the fucked up world they find themselves in when their eyes start to finally open. Their parents don't want them anymore, the only people willing to show them some affection is those people who are obsessed with proving that this child has problems. So in order to placate that normal human function of wanting love, these kids are forced to absorb their labeled dysfunctions . Look at all the attention they get if they admit to being dysfunctional, suddenly everybody likes them again. If they don't admit it they are shunned, and put on more and more meds until they are literally a walking zombie. Or they take a beautiful girl brought in for self image issues, and force them on Zyprexa which causes them to gain 100 pounds, and they had issues before? The plain cold hard truth is very few people are going to love a kid that isn't their own, the ones who do don't go asking for money , they probably just adopt kids or something. Money is what our society is about, follow the money and you see the real perpetrators of this sham. House of cards built on the admitted dysfunctions of normal people. They have turned a normal human behavior into a dysfcuntion and sell a treatment that does nothing. |Money from nowhere, that is what this drug war is all about.
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I really wonder if they think the kids forced into the adolescent psychiatric programs are stupid. Their morning appointment is with a psychiatrist who tells them they have ______ disorder, _______ personality disorder, with ______ symptoms, plus you have ________ to top it off. Then you are told in order to solve these problems you must take 350 mg of ______ per day, 5 mg of______ per day, 25 mg of _______ four times per day, 60MG of _________ six times daily, and a half dozen other ones for good measure. Then that afternoon you are told to sit alone and read the whole NA big book, and write about it. Then at night you find yourself in an NA group, led by volunteer lay people brought in from outside a hospital full of highly educated psychologists who specialize in adolescent mental health. But all this knowledge, all this resource, it's simply brought to the common denominator of NA, all druggies are the same, they use drugs because drugs are evil and they have a disease. So the duality, of being diagnosed with problems by a psychiatrist, and given drugs to solve such problems. Then the same day being taught that chemicals and drugs are not a solution to your problems. It makes no sense, at all. At this point is when a kid realizes the hypocrisy of it all and finally realizes what they really are. A commodity. They are bought, sold, transfered, and experimented on and because of this many other people are making a living and the even higher ups are doing extremely well, the CEO of the companies who own it. It's a pyramid scheme, built on the backs of teenagers just trying to make sense of the fucked up world they find themselves in when their eyes start to finally open. Their parents don't want them anymore, the only people willing to show them some affection is those people who are obsessed with proving that this child has problems. So in order to placate that normal human function of wanting love, these kids are forced to absorb their labeled dysfunctions . Look at all the attention they get if they admit to being dysfunctional, suddenly everybody likes them again. If they don't admit it they are shunned, and put on more and more meds until they are literally a walking zombie. Or they take a beautiful girl brought in for self image issues, and force them on Zyprexa which causes them to gain 100 pounds, and they had issues before? The plain cold hard truth is very few people are going to love a kid that isn't their own, the ones who do don't go asking for money , they probably just adopt kids or something. Money is what our society is about, follow the money and you see the real perpetrators of this sham. House of cards built on the admitted dysfunctions of normal people. They have turned a normal human behavior into a dysfcuntion and sell a treatment that does nothing. |Money from nowhere, that is what this drug war is all about.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!
:tup: :tup: ::cheers::
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Blombro, how about having DADDY arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned for RAPE? Then this child could live at home safely.
That's what needs to happen to RAPISTS, don't you think?
Why should a child need to make the choice: Live at home with a rapist father; OR go to some neglectful program, like Summit?
Give me a fucking break.
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Geez, no need for the hostility.
I accept my logic was flawed.
As long as you got the general point that we need to go after more than just the programs, but the systems that feed kids into these programs as well.
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Voluntary treatment to me is something on the lines of Stockholms Syndrome,
Monday March 24, 2003 Previous | Next
Dear Yahoo!:
What is "Stockholm Syndrome"?
Ben
Cincinnati, Ohio
Dear Ben:
Stockholm Syndrome describes the behavior of kidnap victims who, over time, become sympathetic to their captors. The name derives from a 1973 hostage incident in Stockholm, Sweden. At the end of six days of captivity in a bank, several kidnap victims actually resisted rescue attempts, and afterwards refused to testify against their captors.
While some people are suggesting the recent Elizabeth Smart kidnapping sounds like a case of Stockholm Syndrome, the most famous incident in the U.S. involved the kidnapped heiress Patty Hearst. Captured by a radical political group known as the Symbionese Liberation Army in 1974, Ms. Hearst eventually became an accomplice of the group, taking on an assumed name and assisting them in several bank robberies. After her re-capture, she denounced the group and her involvement.
What causes Stockholm Syndrome? Captives begin to identify with their captors initially as a defensive mechanism, out of fear of violence. Small acts of kindness by the captor are magnified, since finding perspective in a hostage situation is by definition impossible. Rescue attempts are also seen as a threat, since it's likely the captive would be injured during such attempts.
It's important to note that these symptoms occur under tremendous emotional and often physical duress. The behavior is considered a common survival strategy for victims of interpersonal abuse, and has been observed in battered spouses, abused children, prisoners of war, and concentration camp survivors.
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Blombro, as long as you make stupid remarks like:
Given the choice of being raped and having your life constantly threatened by your dad or being neglected by staff at Summit what would you choose? What would the choice be?
I reserve the right to be as hostile as I please when responding to your stupidity.
Rapists belong in prison. And no child should be place in any type "program" that is neglectful.
What part of this do you not understand?
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Voluntary treatment to me is something on the lines of Stockholms Syndrome
What you're talking about is an example of the learned helplessness (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness) I was talking about earlier.
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As long as you got the general point that we need to go after more than just the programs, but the systems that feed kids into these programs as well.
Like cultural approval (or silence, which is basically the same thing)? How about refusing to take a stand when there are difficult (or even impossible odds). Howabout saying... "well... It's not Auschwitz... the Jews love it here in Terezin! I checked for myself!"
With the current state of this industry, it is irresponsible to suggest that there are "good" programs when choosing a school, realistically, is like playing Russian roulette on your kid with 5 bullets. If you imply there is one that even "might" be good without adding "but it is not safe to take the chance!" you are being completely haphazard with the safety of kids, and giving the parents the false impression that there "might be other good ones..."... You would have to be a complete idiot to not comprehend what follows after that. Desperate, ignorant parents, combined with convincing con-artists and sophisticated means of indirect control and persuasion... That one very good reason I do not tell parents "sure.. this place doesn't look so bad"... Another one? Because I visited the program I was placed in .. thought it looked wonderful. I was conned. It is EASY to be fooled by places who make a living off doing it professionally. Oh.. but you can tell from a recently released survivor that there is no abuse? REally? DId you use the word "abuse". Even so, ever heard of a "cult of silence". "What is said in here, stays in here". Come on...
You would be a fool to pass a final judgement on any facility in this industry unless you were actually a student there... You should know this... but it seems to me, with your continuous harping on about WWASP, that you think their methods were the only ones ever used. There are less draconic, kinder, gentler, but just as effective ways of raping sombody's mind.
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I really wonder if they think the kids forced into the adolescent psychiatric programs are stupid. Their morning appointment is with a psychiatrist who tells them they have ______ disorder, _______ personality disorder, with ______ symptoms, plus you have ________ to top it off. Then you are told in order to solve these problems you must take 350 mg of ______ per day, 5 mg of______ per day, 25 mg of _______ four times per day, 60MG of _________ six times daily, and a half dozen other ones for good measure. Then that afternoon you are told to sit alone and read the whole NA big book, and write about it. Then at night you find yourself in an NA group, led by volunteer lay people brought in from outside a hospital full of highly educated psychologists who specialize in adolescent mental health. But all this knowledge, all this resource, it's simply brought to the common denominator of NA, all druggies are the same, they use drugs because drugs are evil and they have a disease. So the duality, of being diagnosed with problems by a psychiatrist, and given drugs to solve such problems. Then the same day being taught that chemicals and drugs are not a solution to your problems. It makes no sense, at all. At this point is when a kid realizes the hypocrisy of it all and finally realizes what they really are. A commodity. They are bought, sold, transfered, and experimented on and because of this many other people are making a living and the even higher ups are doing extremely well, the CEO of the companies who own it. It's a pyramid scheme, built on the backs of teenagers just trying to make sense of the fucked up world they find themselves in when their eyes start to finally open. Their parents don't want them anymore, the only people willing to show them some affection is those people who are obsessed with proving that this child has problems. So in order to placate that normal human function of wanting love, these kids are forced to absorb their labeled dysfunctions . Look at all the attention they get if they admit to being dysfunctional, suddenly everybody likes them again. If they don't admit it they are shunned, and put on more and more meds until they are literally a walking zombie. Or they take a beautiful girl brought in for self image issues, and force them on Zyprexa which causes them to gain 100 pounds, and they had issues before? The plain cold hard truth is very few people are going to love a kid that isn't their own, the ones who do don't go asking for money , they probably just adopt kids or something. Money is what our society is about, follow the money and you see the real perpetrators of this sham. House of cards built on the admitted dysfunctions of normal people. They have turned a normal human behavior into a dysfcuntion and sell a treatment that does nothing. |Money from nowhere, that is what this drug war is all about.
I so recognize this writing style... I'm just glad this is written as guest. You absolutely fucking ROCK as a writer. Must be them cookies.
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I retract my stupid remarks
Psy is on point about learned helplessness. But if we want to extend the definition of programs to include learned helplessness, we might have to include almost every school and medical facility in this country.
My point about the complexities of the system remains. What is the strategy for dealing with the myriad faults of the teen help industry in all of its forms?
My obsession with WWASP is moot and largely unintentional, CEDU, Straight, SUWS, Aspen, their more or less all the same in my mind in that parents with money (or decent credit) can "opt out" of the government run and regulated systems. The ones that operate without state money require different strategies to shut down than ones that do receive money from the state. I admit to not being an expert on the particulars of the brainwashing techniques of each model.
Question, what of the person who has experienced multiple "programs" and thinks they can differentiate the quality (or lack thereof of each one).
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I retract my stupid remarks
Psy is on point about learned helplessness. But if we want to extend the definition of programs to include learned helplessness, we might have to include almost every school and medical facility in this country.
My point about the complexities of the system remains. What is the strategy for dealing with the myriad faults of the teen help industry in all of its forms?
Education. Independent/guerilla media. Civil disobedience. Illegal surveilance of programs (drop the tapes on teh doorstep of the press, or pass them out randomly at churches). Oh? but you can go go jail for that?!?! I am willing, if that is what it takes. Anything it takes to demolish the one thing that programs function on: control of communication. It is one unifying aspect of all totalistic systems. Show people a pattern, and they will start to see it everywhere it appears. Turn programs inside out, show the world what they don't what to become public. Regardless of the law, it does not matter. Each year, this industry grows and becomes popular. Each year, undocumented pass through this industry. With such things at stake, the law means absolutely nothing to me. Anything and everything it takes to expose the truth... cracking, surveilance, blackmale, bribery. Yes. I am suggesting illegal things. I don't care. If you are not willing to participate than get out of the way. If the law fails, and there is still injustice it does not relieve those who know about from their responsability to act. Inaction is the same as approval. I may be extreme, but I am not endorsing violence. It should also be noted that there is a very viable defense for such actions (not that it would matter to me). Do you really think a jury would convict somebody for using "illegal" means to expose abuse and fraud on such a scale? and even if they did. That punishment would be worth it. People overseas are willing to blow themselves up for what they believe in, sacrafice their lives for an imaginary friend. I had real friends who suffered immesurabely, and some are dead. I am more than a little willing to do a little time if that is what it takes. If just ONE person from every tbs was willing to do the same, there would be no more industry. You want a one-shot, one-kill end to this industry? That is it.
You can play your politics but you are a fool to continue to have faith in a system that is so filled with cancer there is no way it can ever recover. Authority means "people with power" and power/might rarely if ever means right. Whatever you have to sacrifice, to give up, to give in, is a slippery slope, and before you know it you will become the very thing that you hate. Mark my words. You really think you would be any different with such power? Power corrupts, without exception. I would hope you would be wise enough to realize that, but it appears there is much you do not understand about the nature of humanity. Do you really think everybody started out in this industry with ill intentions. Kevin August had good intentions... He simply thought that his ideal goal was unattainable, so he compromised, and ended up referring, (probably ignorantly) to an abusive faciility (and don't question me on that or i will shove so much evidence so far up your ass....). You simply don't see how easy it is to become part of the system you once sought to destroy. You may give up. I wont.
My obsession with WWASP is moot and largely unintentional, CEDU, Straight, SUWS, Aspen, their more or less all the same in my mind in that parents with money (or decent credit) can "opt out" of the government run and regulated systems. The ones that operate without state money require different strategies to shut down than ones that do receive money from the state. I admit to not being an expert on the particulars of the brainwashing techniques of each model.
Then, once again, I wonder how in the hell you could even dare to suggest any program is benign. I am not expert either. I am not willing to take such a risk and have such a placement on my conscience. Even if I am 90% sure I will never say so, becuase I was fooled myself when I visited Bencmark. If you can live with yourself after passing around such irresponsible advice, from a supposed position of responsibility... fine.
Question, what of the person who has experienced multiple "programs" and thinks they can differentiate the quality (or lack thereof of each one).
I know different people who were in teh same series of programs (common when ed-cons get paid off). They differed in their opinion of which one was worse. Some people are more affected by one type of "treatment" than others. I am not such a fool to think I can ever tell what a program is like without going through it (without exception).
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In certain situations I do endorse violence against program property, staff, and staff member families if the risks are proportionate to the gains.
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If the law fails, and there is still injustice it does not relieve those who know about from their responsability to act. Inaction is the same as approval. I may be extreme, but I am not endorsing violence. It should also be noted that there is a very viable defense for such actions
A little more than two centuries ago, some English citizens in the American colonies were saying the same kinds of things. I don't believe anyone should resort to violence, as our founders did, to right this wrong. But I do believe that devious, underhanded and possibly illegal tactics may be required. The Programs operate that way, and it only seems fair to meet their assault on our youth with the same sort of arsenal.
Do you really think everybody started out in this industry with ill intentions...You simply don't see how easy it is to become part of the system you once sought to destroy.
Sorry to digress, but this quote reminds me of a lyric that's often heard on alternative stations right now, from the latest Nine Inch Nails album. Trent seems to be taking the rich asshole perspective in this song -- and the "G" stands for "Greed".
"Don't try to tell how some power can corrupt a person
You haven't had enough to know what it's like
You're only angry 'cause you wish you were in my position
Now nod your head because you know that I'm right"
-- Trent Reznor, "Capital G"
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Civil disobedience. Illegal surveilance of programs (drop the tapes on teh doorstep of the press, or pass them out randomly at churches). Oh? but you can go go jail for that?!?! I am willing, if that is what it takes. Anything it takes to demolish the one thing that programs function on: control of communication.
Good. Do it. Don't just talk about it.
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Civil disobedience. Illegal surveilance of programs (drop the tapes on teh doorstep of the press, or pass them out randomly at churches). Oh? but you can go go jail for that?!?! I am willing, if that is what it takes. Anything it takes to demolish the one thing that programs function on: control of communication.
Good. Do it. Don't just talk about it.
Alex?
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Civil disobedience. Illegal surveilance of programs (drop the tapes on teh doorstep of the press, or pass them out randomly at churches). Oh? but you can go go jail for that?!?! I am willing, if that is what it takes. Anything it takes to demolish the one thing that programs function on: control of communication.
Good. Do it. Don't just talk about it.
Do you really think I would be stupid enough to tell you if I did? What if I already have? Hypothetically, I do not particularly care about taking credit as long as the information would become public. There are ways of releasing information anonymously and I plan to write an "idiots guide to completely anonymous internet" for Fornits. Just Becuase I am willing to do time doesn't mean I would seek it out. If I do illegal things, you won't know about it.
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Civil disobedience. Illegal surveilance of programs (drop the tapes on teh doorstep of the press, or pass them out randomly at churches). Oh? but you can go go jail for that?!?! I am willing, if that is what it takes. Anything it takes to demolish the one thing that programs function on: control of communication.
Good. Do it. Don't just talk about it.
Care to enlighten us on your alliance with Isabelle Zehender?
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Civil disobedience. Illegal surveilance of programs (drop the tapes on teh doorstep of the press, or pass them out randomly at churches). Oh? but you can go go jail for that?!?! I am willing, if that is what it takes. Anything it takes to demolish the one thing that programs function on: control of communication.
Good. Do it. Don't just talk about it.
Alex?
Yup. Howdy. :)
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Still wondering why you have clung to your alliance with Isabelle Zehender despite her vicious attacks on the survivors of the Whitmore tragedy.
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Civil disobedience. Illegal surveilance of programs (drop the tapes on teh doorstep of the press, or pass them out randomly at churches). Oh? but you can go go jail for that?!?! I am willing, if that is what it takes. Anything it takes to demolish the one thing that programs function on: control of communication.
Good. Do it. Don't just talk about it.
Care to enlighten us on your alliance with Isabelle Zehender?
Can't say I didn't know about this (hence my curt respose)
Fuck you Alex. Traitor! Hypocrite!
Oh.. but poor Brian was ignorant of this! right? wrong! He thinks politics makes strange bedfellows.
Come clean or I will do it for you.
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Still wondering why you have clung to your alliance with Isabelle Zehender despite her vicious attacks on the survivors of the Whitmore tragedy.
Hate to think she's got him pussy-whipped or something.. lol..
This is about to get good, isn't it? LOL
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Still wondering why you have clung to your alliance with Isabelle Zehender despite her vicious attacks on the survivors of the Whitmore tragedy.
Hate to think she's got him pussy-whipped or something.. lol..
This is about to get good, isn't it? LOL
All in good time...
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Oh the Poor Isabelle. Victim of a Witchhunt. In Alex's own words:
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... 36&catid=7 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=0&func=view&view=threaded&id=1536&catid=7)
Go ahead and delete your post. It will just embarrass you as I'll just be forced to host an archived mirror.
Now that's public. You want to explain the rest? Or should I?
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Another contender gone bad. Is their anyone around that hasn't been tainted by Isabelle?
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Another contender gone bad. Is their anyone around that hasn't been tainted by Isabelle?
Well... What else would you expect in bed with izzy (apart from suffocation).
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A bad rash.
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Well... What else would you expect in bed with izzy (apart from suffocation).
A totally limp dick. Even Viagra couldn't fix that shit...
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I really wonder if they think the kids forced into the adolescent psychiatric programs are stupid. Their morning appointment is with a psychiatrist who tells them they have ______ disorder, _______ personality disorder, with ______ symptoms, plus you have ________ to top it off. Then you are told in order to solve these problems you must take 350 mg of ______ per day, 5 mg of______ per day, 25 mg of _______ four times per day, 60MG of _________ six times daily, and a half dozen other ones for good measure. Then that afternoon you are told to sit alone and read the whole NA big book, and write about it. Then at night you find yourself in an NA group, led by volunteer lay people brought in from outside a hospital full of highly educated psychologists who specialize in adolescent mental health. But all this knowledge, all this resource, it's simply brought to the common denominator of NA, all druggies are the same, they use drugs because drugs are evil and they have a disease. So the duality, of being diagnosed with problems by a psychiatrist, and given drugs to solve such problems. Then the same day being taught that chemicals and drugs are not a solution to your problems. It makes no sense, at all. At this point is when a kid realizes the hypocrisy of it all and finally realizes what they really are. A commodity. They are bought, sold, transfered, and experimented on and because of this many other people are making a living and the even higher ups are doing extremely well, the CEO of the companies who own it. It's a pyramid scheme, built on the backs of teenagers just trying to make sense of the fucked up world they find themselves in when their eyes start to finally open. Their parents don't want them anymore, the only people willing to show them some affection is those people who are obsessed with proving that this child has problems. So in order to placate that normal human function of wanting love, these kids are forced to absorb their labeled dysfunctions . Look at all the attention they get if they admit to being dysfunctional, suddenly everybody likes them again. If they don't admit it they are shunned, and put on more and more meds until they are literally a walking zombie. Or they take a beautiful girl brought in for self image issues, and force them on Zyprexa which causes them to gain 100 pounds, and they had issues before? The plain cold hard truth is very few people are going to love a kid that isn't their own, the ones who do don't go asking for money , they probably just adopt kids or something. Money is what our society is about, follow the money and you see the real perpetrators of this sham. House of cards built on the admitted dysfunctions of normal people. They have turned a normal human behavior into a dysfcuntion and sell a treatment that does nothing. |Money from nowhere, that is what this drug war is all about.
I so recognize this writing style... I'm just glad this is written as guest. You absolutely fucking ROCK as a writer. Must be them cookies.
:tup: Ditto
A government sanctioned scam.
Start with Teen Screen- every kid in America to be screened for mental illness, as well as all school personel and elders. Part of Bush's One World Order. Not conspiracy. Documented.
Zero Tolerance and War on Drugs- do I need to elaborate?
The massive drugging of kids- significant data available on violence and suicide being caused by these drugs, not to mention a whole new black market for rx drugs. All the school shooters were on psych drugs, btw.
If drugs don't 'work' on their totally fabricated 'diagnoses' (no science to validate), then you incarcerate them in psuedo psychiatric facilities and attempt to modify their behavior under the guise of 'therapy' at an astronomical price.
Social control. Anyone see the movie Equilibrium? :scared: If you haven't, put it on your list of must sees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(2002_film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(2002_film))
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Fuck you Alex. Traitor! Hypocrite!
Wow, such a lovely bunch on this forum. No wonder I typically avoid it.
Get any programs shut down lately? Or are you guys having too much fun attacking fellow opponents of abusive programs?
All the infighting is quite amusing if it wasn't so counter-productive and sad.
You guys make me think of the Life of Brian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prhip4hYIUA&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prhip4hYIUA&NR=1)
http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-07.htm (http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-07.htm)
BRIAN:
Are you the Judean People's Front?
REG:
Fuck off!
BRIAN:
What?
REG:
Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front. Cawk.
FRANCIS:
Wankers.
BRIAN:
Can I... join your group?
.....
REG:
Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah...
JUDITH:
Splitters.
P.F.J.:
Splitters...
FRANCIS:
And the Judean Popular People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
LORETTA:
And the People's Front of Judea.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
REG:
What?
LORETTA:
The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.
REG:
We're the People's Front of Judea!
LORETTA:
Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
REG:
People's Front! C-huh.
FRANCIS:
Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
REG:
He's over there.
P.F.J.:
Splitter!
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How many programs have you knocked out yourself their Palicz? And you haven't answered the question have you. What are your comments on your alliance with Isabelle Zehender and your alliance with her?
We all know that Isabelle hasn't done shut down any programs. We all know you haven't shut down any programs. So why are you evading the questions about your little alliance with Isabelle?
Very interesting.
More damaged goods advocates is my guess.
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Fuck you Alex. Traitor! Hypocrite!
Wow, such a lovely bunch on this forum. No wonder I typically avoid it.
Get any programs shut down lately?
Yes. I like to brag about every single one. Publicly... And act like I'm hot shit. Hey.. Mister youth rights person. what about your friend isabelle referring to Sunrise Adolescent Transport (unlicenced, wwasp associated), and PURE... which of course, referrs to such wonderful places as sorensons, red rock, whitmore... need I go on.
It was recently demonstrated that a parent contacting Izabelle for help getting a kid out of program somehow managed to get convinced that there are good programs, and that she should contact Sue Scheff for help on that. Maybe you were asleep during that. Or perhaps exposing some sort of injustice somewhere. Do you typically wear a cape to work?
Or are you guys having too much fun attacking fellow opponents of abusive programs?
[bla bla ... insert 50 odd lines of ad-hominem]
Yes. Wonderful humor. Love the movie. Now that relates to Isabelle Zehnder (your buddy) how exactly? Come on now, my friend... Explain to the wonderful crazy people here why exactly it is you love Isabelle so much.
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Anything and everything it takes to expose the truth... cracking, surveilance, blackmale, bribery. Yes. I am suggesting illegal things.
Now here's the irony. Those "illegal things" (manipulation in a word), are considered "therapy" in programs.
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Reminds me alot of the IRA. You get someone who goes bad and you bury him or her face down in a bog. Damn right we attack those advocates that have gone bad.
Once you go bad you aren't an advocate. You are a sell out.
So what is this about you and Izzy now?
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goodnight my sweet Alex...
Until tomorrow.
sleep tight Don't let the izzy bite (think "Jaws")
;)
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I was trying to say that if this parent does what you say in your post, that perhaps in addition to "contributing to society" they will also refrain from having the urge to search out internet sites such as this one. In other words maybe it will help them get over it more than a parent who just says, hey, get over it kid, it cost me a lot of money, you should be thankful, and blows them off or better yet they are brainwashed fully in program. Thats what I was trying to say in not so many words but I failed. lol
Thanks for clarifying. But I think some people don't just "get over it" so easily -- not just survivors, but even some of us angry ex-program parents who can't believe that this shit exists and that we fell for it. For those of us who have always been rebels, learning about this evil stink, and having our children and to a lesser degree ourselves victimized by this evil stink, and learning about all the thousands of American youth who have suffered...well, it really really pisses me off. And when I get really really pissed off I can't let go until I feel like justice has been served.
That's why I'm still here, still learning, still communicating with would-be naive parent/clients, learning from survivors, and trying to figure out the best strategy to eliminate this scourge from the face of the Earth.
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Please tell us Alex, what program did your pal Isabelle refer a child to by way of PURE? Do you even know? If not, please ask her to tell you the name of this program and any other details about the placements (e.g. age of child, gender, name of transport company (if applicable) and how much Scheff made on her sales commission).
Surely you can understand why the answers to these questions may be helpful but if not - then I suggest you familiarize yourself with the programs PURE has recommended in the past which are NO LONGER in operation. Ask yourself WHY.
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Oh shit, wrong thread to reply to. :oops:
Must be my ADD kickin' in...or maybe those beers.
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What's going on here?
Never believed for a moment that ACT UP was a real parent.
Then Brian Blombro shows up with his nonsense posting--which he did show enough common sense to finally retract.
Then "Alex" shows up spouting "what programs have you closed down lately" bullshit.
Was this simply another Izzy game, or something?
Seems Izzy is going at it non-stop: the poor Aunt Kelly Ryan thread was a doozy.
"MUMMIE" who is seeking advice on the "Exit Plan" thread is looking very Izzy supicious, too.
Is Izzy just having some fun with fornits, or what?
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Good morning y'all, I think this will be my last post, and then I'm going to go crawl under my rock over at CAFETY.
ACT UP is a real parent, I can vouch for that. And I can vouch for the fact that she will be trying to get her son out of Summit, and I will do everything in my power to help.
As for Alex, I feel about him the same way I felt about Bill, I don't approve of the company he keeps, but I don't do guilt by association. As long as he doesn't refer anyone to a program himself, he's alright in my book.
I suppose that taints me for associating with him, which taints Kat for associating with me, which taints ASTART for associating with the both of us (which I suppose most of you felt that way already), which taints Maya for associating with all of us, which taints everyone else on this board for valuing her opinion so highly. So we're all tainted, so please stop with this purity bullshit.
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Good morning y'all, I think this will be my last post, and then I'm going to go crawl under my rock over at CAFETY.
I would suggest a bunker.
ACT UP is a real parent, I can vouch for that. And I can vouch for the fact that she will be trying to get her son out of Summit, and I will do everything in my power to help.
As for Alex, I feel about him the same way I felt about Bill, I don't approve of the company he keeps, but I don't do guilt by association. As long as he doesn't refer anyone to a program himself, he's alright in my book.
But his ally does.
I suppose that taints me for associating with him
Since you knew about this, yes.
which taints Kat for associating with me
only if she knew about this.
which taints ASTART for associating with the both of us (which I suppose most of you felt that way already)
If they knew about this.
which taints Maya for associating with all of us
No. I know she does not approve of Isabelle Zehnder.
which taints everyone else on this board for valuing her opinion so highly. So we're all tainted, so please stop with this purity bullshit.
If you approve or associate with crooked advocates such as Isabelle Zehnder, you make it appear if such crooked advocates are somehow legitimate, putting parents in danger of contacting them for help, and getting referred to programs (Which Isabelle Zehnder ADMITS to having done). What you call "purity bullshit" i call common sense and integrity... Which you apparantly have very little of.
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OH niggah puhlease. Spare us all your circular logic. The only one tainted here is your buddy Alex. At best you are a misguided idiot with good intentions.
Please step off your high horse of sweeping generalizations and other associated twattery.
The company bill keeps has absolutely nothing to do with the company Alex keeps and you know it. Kevin August stopped his bullshit. Has Alex stopped his?
No.
That makes you a dumbass for even trying to bother making yourself out to be some kind of hero.
Have a nice day, now fuck off.
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Leave Bill Boyles and Kevin August out of this Blombro. Kevin August, under a great deal of pressure from the entire universe, managed to get himself together enough to not go forward with his plan to refer kids to Magnolia Christian Center. For the most part Kevin has done everything he had needed to do to be recognized as a credible part of the movement. The same can not be said for your chum.
Alex on the other hand, by mere fact that he willingly associates with Isabelle and Sue Scheff, lends the credibility of the NYRA to two of the most disreputable organizations in the entire advocacy movement. Perhaps you've spent to much time under your rock over at Cafety to realize that Issy and Sue take advantage of whatever organization and individuals they can to further their own positions. Ask Sandy all about Issy's using Sandy's email to make her own organization look stronger.
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Jesus. A START does not approve of Izzy and Sue, and they dissed NATSAP, who weren't expecting such a frigid shoulder and a "talk to the hand" attitude. My take is cut and dry: Izzy and Sue support the Whitmore even when it's been exposed and shut-down, and they profit off this screwed industry. Anyone who associates with Izzy and Sue supports the industry, and they're vermin. Fuck, yeah, I believe in guilt by association.
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Jesus. A START does not approve of Izzy and Sue, and they dissed NATSAP, who weren't expecting such a frigid shoulder and a "talk to the hand" attitude. My take is cut and dry: Izzy and Sue support the Whitmore even when it's been exposed and shut-down
And the reason for that is... very very frightening. (to be released sometime this fall)
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Why does Alex Koroknay-Palicz, the Executive Director of NYRA support Isabelle Zehnder, CAICA? Can anyone answer that?
NYRA and CAICA link to each other's websites. A link to CAICA is a liink to P.U.R.E.
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Civil disobedience. Illegal surveilance of programs (drop the tapes on teh doorstep of the press, or pass them out randomly at churches). Oh? but you can go go jail for that?!?! I am willing, if that is what it takes. Anything it takes to demolish the one thing that programs function on: control of communication.
Good. Do it. Don't just talk about it.
Care to enlighten us on your alliance with Isabelle Zehender?
Certainly.
We don't talk as often as we used to, I can't remember the last time we spoke, but based on all our past conversations I consider her a dedicated advocate for the rights of youth and an opponent of the abusive programs we all here oppose. She has worked to get individual youth out of programs and has coordinated flyering outside of WWASPS events to educate parents about the abuses of their programs. I've never spoken to Sue Sheff but I did see that excellent documentary about WWASPS she had a hand in creating and I was very much impressed by it. It has done a lot of good to spread the word about the abuses at these facilities.
Do people believe such actions are good or bad?
I think they are good and demonstrate progress for the movement. Because of these good things, and other good things that have been done I do consider Izzy to be an ally.
As for accusations of her taking money to refer kids to abusive programs and defending abusive programs, I guess I need to see some evidence. These are pretty serious accusations and are something I intend to look into. Potentially this could change my relationship with Izzy.
However what I have seen mostly is a lot of hysterics from this crowd who were shunning and defaming Izzy long before any accusations of her referring kids to programs surfaced. With the kind of conduct I have seen from people on this forum and from e-mail conversations with various individuals within this movement I take a rather skeptical view of the vitriol, hate and accusations that stem from this crowd.
Perhaps you are right and Izzy isn't the person I thought she was. But the kind of insane ranting I see here isn't the kind of approach that will help me see the light. It is far more likely to lead me to dismiss you all as a pack of harpies who delight in tearing people down instead of actually making progress for this important issue and actually doing some good. I very much hope I am wrong and I hope you can help me to see that.
So that's point 1: the conduct of Izzy's opponents is so ridiculous it makes it difficult for me to take any of your words seriously and thus I am skeptical of the veracity of your claims.
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I do intend to look into the claims though and check with folks here and with Izzy directly. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't get off on infighting, I just want to know the truth. That being said, I must admit that I have intended to investigate these accusations for some time now and I have not done so yet. I apologize for my delay on this matter but I have a very busy schedule and untangling this mess of accusations and counter-accusations looks like a big project that I don't have a lot of time budgeted for.
Furthermore, as you all may have noticed, NYRA does not do a whole lot with behavior modification centers directly though we unequivocally oppose them. I am not as educated on this issue as many of you and I have not put in as much work into this issue. There are good reasons for this and I hope you will hear me out. First, we are an extremely small organization with an extremely small budget and simply lack the time and resources to make a dent in this issue. Second, unlike other issues we work on like lowering the voting age or lowering the drinking age, there are many organizations out there currently working on this issue. I would LOVE to see a board as big and vocal (though hopefully more professional) as Fornits about lowering the voting age. So with NYRA the only advocate on these issues we have to shift our weight to issues where we can do the most good. Third, if the voting age were lowered it would have a direct and considerable positive impact on the success of the anti-behavior mod movement. So for those reasons, I haven't made the time to investigate these claims like I should have. Accept my apologies and my explanation.
Accept my apologies in advance for my inability to respond to the many vitriolic point-by-point refutations this post may elicit.
So... that's point 2: I fully intend to make an honest and unbiased investigation into the claims leveled against Izzy and reach my own conclusion. But I am extremely busy and haven't had a chance yet.
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Another possible explanation in my mind for the anti-Izzy hatred may just be a difference of tactics and political awareness. We have a different approach to this issue - and perhaps all political issues. I know many here disagree with my approach, but I will attempt to articulate it anyhow.
1. I believe dogmatic, fanatic attachment to an ideal blinds us from truth.
2. I believe Compromise is necessary
3. I think successful political movements have a long term vision and short term objectives to get them there
4. I believe in Big Tent politics and working in coalitions
Many here hold the point of view that all programs are equally bad, indeed many may believe that all mental health services are equally bad or that all institutions are equally bad. I understand how such a viewpoint comes about, but I disagree. After facing the horrible abuses at programs (of which there are many) it is easy to become so angry that any program or institution at all related to it is lumped into the same category in one’s mind. Also there is the fear that if you endorse X, would you then have to endorse Y? And if you endorse Y, would you endorse Z? And so and so on until you are endorsing Tranquility Bay. So instead of asking tough questions and making some tough decisions it is far easier to throw the whole mess into a pot and label it evil.
I don't see the world in terms of black and white where all people are either good or evil. This is the perspective this movement seems to believe in. Izzy wasn’t ideologically pure in your minds, so you decide she is evil and no different than Robert Lichfield. I haven’t condemned Izzy so I am also evil and morally equivalent to Robert Lichfield. This is simply insane. There ARE shades of gray. There are differences. Was socialist Sweden the same as communist USSR? Was fascist Spain the same as Nazi Germany? Is France a terrorist country because they did not agree with our invasion of Iraq?
You guys all remind me of President Bush when he told the world they are either with us or they are with the terrorists.
If you are so certain that you are right and so certain the enemy is not only wrong, but evil, then you close your mind to argument, you close your mind to facts, you close your mind to truth. Bush was so certain that Saddam had to go and that invading Iraq would make us safer that he distorted the truth and “sexed up intelligence” to make the case for war certain that history would one day vindicate him. So far at least he has been wrong. But he held a fanatical belief and shaped the facts around them instead of allowing the facts to shape his belief.
2. I believe Compromise is necessary
When you have such a fanatical mindset you blind yourself to progress. If kids are transferred from a horribly abusive camp to a mildly abusive camp is that good? No. Is it better? Absolutely. If a camp switches to be voluntary instead of compulsory that is progress.
Many in my organization would like to see the voting age abolished completely. The organization however works on lowering the voting age to 16. Is 16 a better age than 18? Yes it is. That is progress. Not only does it have direct, tangible results that can be seen and felt, it is one step closer to whatever the ultimate goal is. How likely are we to succeed if we dig in our heels and talk about nothing beyond abolishing the voting age? Not bloody likely imho. Lets say it took us 200 years to get the voting age abolished and it took us 20 years to get the voting age to 16. If we lower the voting age first then we have 180 years of 16 and 17 year olds voting, being listened, to, making political decisions and all the benefits that come with that. A compromise had a direct effect on their lives that they wouldn’t have seen if we were dogmatic about it.
Look at drug reform. Lots of people in that movement want to legalize all drugs for all people. But they compromise by pushing for medicinal marijuana. Then they compromise with decriminalizing marijuana. Then legalizing marijuana. Then maybe looking at other drugs at a later date. They are compromising and it is yielding positive results for them they wouldn’t see if they simply demanded all drugs be legalized right now.
So bringing it back to the topic at hand, if Izzy successfully gets a kid out of very abusive program and into a mildly abusive program it is progress. I know you don’t like to hear that, but that is the truth. She has just made a positive difference in that person’s life. It is far from what we ultimately want, but it is better than the practical alternative. It sucks, but that is just the reality. Of course this depends on whether she really is diverting people from more abusive programs into “better” less abusive programs and not the other way around as some suggest, but again, I need to look into that.
I’m not saying that this approach is the only one however. If you guys don’t believe in compromise, that’s fine. But please recognize that those of us who do believe in compromise aren’t evil, we just have different tactics for the same objectives.
3. I think successful political movements have a long term vision and short term objectives to get them there
What is key in this, and perhaps the point that many here don’t understand, is that when compromises are made we don’t just go home and consider our work done. When the drug policy reform movement wins national medicinal marijuana they aren’t going to just quit working on their other issues. They have a long term vision – drug legalization. And they have many short term objectives that bring the public closer to that vision. The average person may think of legalizing marijuana as crazy, criminal and a horrible idea. But he might be won over if you tell him you just want to legalize it for medicinal purposes. So he agrees with the compromise, the policy is enacted, he sees that it isn’t the end of the world, and now is more open to considering legalization than he was before. But you can’t get him to that point if you don’t compromise. If you just shout at him that drugs should be legal he will call you a crackpot and walk away.
Compromises don’t take the place of our long term vision; they bring us closer to it.
So don’t assume that Izzy or I would be happy and satisfied with just making programs less abusive. No, no, no. That is just a stepping stone toward getting rid of them altogether. But it is a stepping stone that will make at least a small improvement in the meantime.
4. I believe in Big Tent politics and working in coalitions
That leads me to my last point regarding my perspective. We all are working on the same issues. Lets assume for the moment that you guys are all right about Izzy that she really does support mildly abusive programs and is a shill for them. Why couldn’t we work with her in eliminating all the very abusive programs like WWASPS? We have the same objectives for the time being, and we’d reach our goals quicker if we worked together. When that day comes that our common goals have been reached, THEN we can start attacking Izzy for supporting mildly abusive programs.
Think of it like we are all on a train together. We are all headed in the same direction, but some of us may want to go further than others. My stop may be at the end of the line, your stop may be 5 stops from the end, Izzy’s may be 10 stops from the end. We all have different end points in mind, but that doesn’t mean we can’t travel together for the time we are all going the same way.
Another example for you. In WW2 Hitler was an evil SOB. Stalin was also an evil SOB. We worked with Stalin so we could take out Hitler and then we worried about fighting the USSR after Hitler was defeated. If it helps you, think of Izzy as Stalin (I’m sure you guys won’t find that hard to do). She may not be our best friend, but she is the enemy of our enemy. Hitler (i.e. WWASPS and other type programs) is the real threat. And if Izzy helps fighting them, her help should be embraced. Once our common enemy is done, then the Cold War can start up and we can go after Izzy and the programs she supports. But one thing at a time. If the US and Britain declared war on both Hitler AND Stalin then we would have been destroyed.
The more allies we can have the better. The bigger coalition we can form the better. We don’t have a fraction of the money and resources WWASPS, et al have. The only way we will defeat them is if we work together and stop this petty, counter-productive infighting.
So… yea. That is a very long explanation of my approach to politics, and officially point 3. I consider myself a pragmatist and not a radical, and believe in progress and think we all need to work together (from all our different approaches) to tackle this problem. So if you guys use your approach, I use mine, and Izzy uses hers, we may all disagree on how to do it, but we all agree that there is a problem that needs to be fixed.
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My final point to this incredibly long treatise is that despite how much you guys might all hate me now, I would wager that I am actually more radical on this issue than you are. Were I the dogmatic type I’m sure I could find a justification to label you all as evil sell-outs the way you are doing with Izzy. Thankfully I’m pragmatic, so I accept that you guys aren’t as radical as I am, but I would like to work with you anyway.
I would be pleasantly surprised if you guys WERE as radical as NYRA, and I’d be interested to see your responses on this point.
I saw someone mention emancipation, which NYRA supports and I’d very much like to see discussed more as a solution. I guess it is a question of why we are all here. I fully believe that youth are entirely equal to adults. I don’t have any real perspective or involvement in mental health or therapy like many do here, I am here purely from a civil rights perspective. Young people are forced into these institutions, abused, invalidated, brain washed, etc because they have no legal rights to resist or refuse. I believe young people should be fully empowered and put in charge of their own health decisions. In fact I believe they should be put in charge of all their decisions. School, voting, alcohol, driving, you name it. Anything short of that is supporting the continued abuse and slavery of young people.
But I don’t hit you guys over the head with that, I recognize that you may not agree with my radical perspective on this issue, but I am willing to work with you anyhow. I’m just asking that you return that favor.
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Man, you really missed the boat big time, Alex.
Mildy abusive?
Is that kind of like mildly toxic?
Toxic is toxic.
The teen help industry is a fraud.
And if you have to even think twice about people sending kids into any kind of UNREGULATED, fraudulent program, well, then all I can say is you have shit for brains. Do us all a favor and stop advocating for youth. You are so far off-base it's a disgrace you call yourself an advocate.
:flame:
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Jesus. A START does not approve of Izzy and Sue, and they dissed NATSAP, who weren't expecting such a frigid shoulder and a "talk to the hand" attitude. My take is cut and dry: Izzy and Sue support the Whitmore even when it's been exposed and shut-down
And the reason for that is... very very frightening. (to be released sometime this fall)
The Fall? Sheez, why so long? Nothing good in this "cause" ever happens fast enough for me. I'm still waiting for Deborah's guaranteed-to-please news over on the PURE/CA-CA forum.
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Alex, when pay Izzy and Sue-Sue to refer your kid to a mildly abusive program, let's see how COMPROMISING you feel then. OK?
How much "mild abuse" would you be willing to accept for your own kid, Alex?
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Certainly.
We don't talk as often as we used to, I can't remember the last time we spoke, but based on all our past conversations I consider her a dedicated advocate for the rights of youth and an opponent of the abusive programs we all here oppose. She has worked to get individual youth out of programs and has coordinated flyering outside of WWASPS events to educate parents about the abuses of their programs. I've never spoken to Sue Sheff but I did see that excellent documentary about WWASPS she had a hand in creating and I was very much impressed by it. It has done a lot of good to spread the word about the abuses at these facilities.
Do people believe such actions are good or bad?
I think they are good and demonstrate progress for the movement. Because of these good things, and other good things that have been done I do consider Izzy to be an ally.
As for accusations of her taking money to refer kids to abusive programs and defending abusive programs, I guess I need to see some evidence. These are pretty serious accusations and are something I intend to look into. Potentially this could change my relationship with Izzy.
However what I have seen mostly is a lot of hysterics from this crowd who were shunning and defaming Izzy long before any accusations of her referring kids to programs surfaced. With the kind of conduct I have seen from people on this forum and from e-mail conversations with various individuals within this movement I take a rather skeptical view of the vitriol, hate and accusations that stem from this crowd.
Perhaps you are right and Izzy isn't the person I thought she was. But the kind of insane ranting I see here isn't the kind of approach that will help me see the light. It is far more likely to lead me to dismiss you all as a pack of harpies who delight in tearing people down instead of actually making progress for this important issue and actually doing some good. I very much hope I am wrong and I hope you can help me to see that.
So that's point 1: the conduct of Izzy's opponents is so ridiculous it makes it difficult for me to take any of your words seriously and thus I am skeptical of the veracity of your claims.
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I do intend to look into the claims though and check with folks here and with Izzy directly. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't get off on infighting, I just want to know the truth. That being said, I must admit that I have intended to investigate these accusations for some time now and I have not done so yet. I apologize for my delay on this matter but I have a very busy schedule and untangling this mess of accusations and counter-accusations looks like a big project that I don't have a lot of time budgeted for.
Furthermore, as you all may have noticed, NYRA does not do a whole lot with behavior modification centers directly though we unequivocally oppose them. I am not as educated on this issue as many of you and I have not put in as much work into this issue. There are good reasons for this and I hope you will hear me out. First, we are an extremely small organization with an extremely small budget and simply lack the time and resources to make a dent in this issue. Second, unlike other issues we work on like lowering the voting age or lowering the drinking age, there are many organizations out there currently working on this issue. I would LOVE to see a board as big and vocal (though hopefully more professional) as Fornits about lowering the voting age. So with NYRA the only advocate on these issues we have to shift our weight to issues where we can do the most good. Third, if the voting age were lowered it would have a direct and considerable positive impact on the success of the anti-behavior mod movement. So for those reasons, I haven't made the time to investigate these claims like I should have. Accept my apologies and my explanation.
Accept my apologies in advance for my inability to respond to the many vitriolic point-by-point refutations this post may elicit.
So... that's point 2: I fully intend to make an honest and unbiased investigation into the claims leveled against Izzy and reach my own conclusion. But I am extremely busy and haven't had a chance yet.
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Another possible explanation in my mind for the anti-Izzy hatred may just be a difference of tactics and political awareness. We have a different approach to this issue - and perhaps all political issues. I know many here disagree with my approach, but I will attempt to articulate it anyhow.
1. I believe dogmatic, fanatic attachment to an ideal blinds us from truth.
2. I believe Compromise is necessary
3. I think successful political movements have a long term vision and short term objectives to get them there
4. I believe in Big Tent politics and working in coalitions
Many here hold the point of view that all programs are equally bad, indeed many may believe that all mental health services are equally bad or that all institutions are equally bad. I understand how such a viewpoint comes about, but I disagree. After facing the horrible abuses at programs (of which there are many) it is easy to become so angry that any program or institution at all related to it is lumped into the same category in one’s mind. Also there is the fear that if you endorse X, would you then have to endorse Y? And if you endorse Y, would you endorse Z? And so and so on until you are endorsing Tranquility Bay. So instead of asking tough questions and making some tough decisions it is far easier to throw the whole mess into a pot and label it evil.
I don't see the world in terms of black and white where all people are either good or evil. This is the perspective this movement seems to believe in. Izzy wasn’t ideologically pure in your minds, so you decide she is evil and no different than Robert Lichfield. I haven’t condemned Izzy so I am also evil and morally equivalent to Robert Lichfield. This is simply insane. There ARE shades of gray. There are differences. Was socialist Sweden the same as communist USSR? Was fascist Spain the same as Nazi Germany? Is France a terrorist country because they did not agree with our invasion of Iraq?
You guys all remind me of President Bush when he told the world they are either with us or they are with the terrorists.
If you are so certain that you are right and so certain the enemy is not only wrong, but evil, then you close your mind to argument, you close your mind to facts, you close your mind to truth. Bush was so certain that Saddam had to go and that invading Iraq would make us safer that he distorted the truth and “sexed up intelligence” to make the case for war certain that history would one day vindicate him. So far at least he has been wrong. But he held a fanatical belief and shaped the facts around them instead of allowing the facts to shape his belief.
2. I believe Compromise is necessary
When you have such a fanatical mindset you blind yourself to progress. If kids are transferred from a horribly abusive camp to a mildly abusive camp is that good? No. Is it better? Absolutely. If a camp switches to be voluntary instead of compulsory that is progress.
Many in my organization would like to see the voting age abolished completely. The organization however works on lowering the voting age to 16. Is 16 a better age than 18? Yes it is. That is progress. Not only does it have direct, tangible results that can be seen and felt, it is one step closer to whatever the ultimate goal is. How likely are we to succeed if we dig in our heels and talk about nothing beyond abolishing the voting age? Not bloody likely imho. Lets say it took us 200 years to get the voting age abolished and it took us 20 years to get the voting age to 16. If we lower the voting age first then we have 180 years of 16 and 17 year olds voting, being listened, to, making political decisions and all the benefits that come with that. A compromise had a direct effect on their lives that they wouldn’t have seen if we were dogmatic about it.
Look at drug reform. Lots of people in that movement want to legalize all drugs for all people. But they compromise by pushing for medicinal marijuana. Then they compromise with decriminalizing marijuana. Then legalizing marijuana. Then maybe looking at other drugs at a later date. They are compromising and it is yielding positive results for them they wouldn’t see if they simply demanded all drugs be legalized right now.
So bringing it back to the topic at hand, if Izzy successfully gets a kid out of very abusive program and into a mildly abusive program it is progress. I know you don’t like to hear that, but that is the truth. She has just made a positive difference in that person’s life. It is far from what we ultimately want, but it is better than the practical alternative. It sucks, but that is just the reality. Of course this depends on whether she really is diverting people from more abusive programs into “better” less abusive programs and not the other way around as some suggest, but again, I need to look into that.
I’m not saying that this approach is the only one however. If you guys don’t believe in compromise, that’s fine. But please recognize that those of us who do believe in compromise aren’t evil, we just have different tactics for the same objectives.
3. I think successful political movements have a long term vision and short term objectives to get them there
What is key in this, and perhaps the point that many here don’t understand, is that when compromises are made we don’t just go home and consider our work done. When the drug policy reform movement wins national medicinal marijuana they aren’t going to just quit working on their other issues. They have a long term vision – drug legalization. And they have many short term objectives that bring the public closer to that vision. The average person may think of legalizing marijuana as crazy, criminal and a horrible idea. But he might be won over if you tell him you just want to legalize it for medicinal purposes. So he agrees with the compromise, the policy is enacted, he sees that it isn’t the end of the world, and now is more open to considering legalization than he was before. But you can’t get him to that point if you don’t compromise. If you just shout at him that drugs should be legal he will call you a crackpot and walk away.
Compromises don’t take the place of our long term vision; they bring us closer to it.
So don’t assume that Izzy or I would be happy and satisfied with just making programs less abusive. No, no, no. That is just a stepping stone toward getting rid of them altogether. But it is a stepping stone that will make at least a small improvement in the meantime.
4. I believe in Big Tent politics and working in coalitions
That leads me to my last point regarding my perspective. We all are working on the same issues. Lets assume for the moment that you guys are all right about Izzy that she really does support mildly abusive programs and is a shill for them. Why couldn’t we work with her in eliminating all the very abusive programs like WWASPS? We have the same objectives for the time being, and we’d reach our goals quicker if we worked together. When that day comes that our common goals have been reached, THEN we can start attacking Izzy for supporting mildly abusive programs.
Think of it like we are all on a train together. We are all headed in the same direction, but some of us may want to go further than others. My stop may be at the end of the line, your stop may be 5 stops from the end, Izzy’s may be 10 stops from the end. We all have different end points in mind, but that doesn’t mean we can’t travel together for the time we are all going the same way.
Another example for you. In WW2 Hitler was an evil SOB. Stalin was also an evil SOB. We worked with Stalin so we could take out Hitler and then we worried about fighting the USSR after Hitler was defeated. If it helps you, think of Izzy as Stalin (I’m sure you guys won’t find that hard to do). She may not be our best friend, but she is the enemy of our enemy. Hitler (i.e. WWASPS and other type programs) is the real threat. And if Izzy helps fighting them, her help should be embraced. Once our common enemy is done, then the Cold War can start up and we can go after Izzy and the programs she supports. But one thing at a time. If the US and Britain declared war on both Hitler AND Stalin then we would have been destroyed.
The more allies we can have the better. The bigger coalition we can form the better. We don’t have a fraction of the money and resources WWASPS, et al have. The only way we will defeat them is if we work together and stop this petty, counter-productive infighting.
So… yea. That is a very long explanation of my approach to politics, and officially point 3. I consider myself a pragmatist and not a radical, and believe in progress and think we all need to work together (from all our different approaches) to tackle this problem. So if you guys use your approach, I use mine, and Izzy uses hers, we may all disagree on how to do it, but we all agree that there is a problem that needs to be fixed.
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My final point to this incredibly long treatise is that despite how much you guys might all hate me now, I would wager that I am actually more radical on this issue than you are. Were I the dogmatic type I’m sure I could find a justification to label you all as evil sell-outs the way you are doing with Izzy. Thankfully I’m pragmatic, so I accept that you guys aren’t as radical as I am, but I would like to work with you anyway.
I would be pleasantly surprised if you guys WERE as radical as NYRA, and I’d be interested to see your responses on this point.
I saw someone mention emancipation, which NYRA supports and I’d very much like to see discussed more as a solution. I guess it is a question of why we are all here. I fully believe that youth are entirely equal to adults. I don’t have any real perspective or involvement in mental health or therapy like many do here, I am here purely from a civil rights perspective. Young people are forced into these institutions, abused, invalidated, brain washed, etc because they have no legal rights to resist or refuse. I believe young people should be fully empowered and put in charge of their own health decisions. In fact I believe they should be put in charge of all their decisions. School, voting, alcohol, driving, you name it. Anything short of that is supporting the continued abuse and slavery of young people.
But I don’t hit you guys over the head with that, I recognize that you may not agree with my radical perspective on this issue, but I am willing to work with you anyhow. I’m just asking that you return that favor.
QFT. (Quoted for Truth, not quite fucking true.)
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My final point to this incredibly long treatise is that despite how much you guys might all hate me now, I would wager that I am actually more radical on this issue than you are. Were I the dogmatic type I’m sure I could find a justification to label you all as evil sell-outs the way you are doing with Izzy. Thankfully I’m pragmatic, so I accept that you guys aren’t as radical as I am, but I would like to work with you anyway.
I would be pleasantly surprised if you guys WERE as radical as NYRA, and I’d be interested to see your responses on this point.
I saw someone mention emancipation, which NYRA supports and I’d very much like to see discussed more as a solution. I guess it is a question of why we are all here. I fully believe that youth are entirely equal to adults. I don’t have any real perspective or involvement in mental health or therapy like many do here, I am here purely from a civil rights perspective. Young people are forced into these institutions, abused, invalidated, brain washed, etc because they have no legal rights to resist or refuse. I believe young people should be fully empowered and put in charge of their own health decisions. In fact I believe they should be put in charge of all their decisions. School, voting, alcohol, driving, you name it. Anything short of that is supporting the continued abuse and slavery of young people.
But I don’t hit you guys over the head with that, I recognize that you may not agree with my radical perspective on this issue, but I am willing to work with you anyhow. I’m just asking that you return that favor.
Oh yes radical like a bad cancer. The sort of thing that needs to be carved out and tossed in the trash.
Your admission that you support Issy is all I needed to know. The rest was mere filler and justifications.
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Gentlefucks, if you're going to attack him for supporting Izzy, post as many links as you've got as to why Izzy and PURE are fucking evil.
Yes, we know you know. But HE doesn't know. Enlighten him.
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Issy and Sue take advantage of whatever organization and individuals they can to further their own positions...to make her own organization look stronger.
TS, you have no idea how many people. :cry:
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I do.. that is why I'm so very less than thrilled.
Associating with Issy gives her organization credibility. This in turn leads to the incarceration of children in not so abusive programs.
Let me restate my earlier point about the IRA.
"Bog... etc... face down... etc."
That be some radical shit yo.
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TS, you don't have to tell me. Got that part. There are so many people out there that you don't know about, trust me.
The big problem with all of this shit is we parents are baited from the git-go, doesn't matter who it is, and we don't see it coming until we've already taken the bate, been hauled in, or netted, then it's too late, we've been hooked, and guilty by association, but not by our own devious intentions, but more by our stupidity, and desperation, which serves people like this and WWASP to no end, while their wallets are getting full, they are depleting our families, financially, spritually, and emotionally.
I would liken them to Vampires, sucking me dry of any and all blood in the name of business as usual, with a little note left on the nightstand reading: "Nothing personal, just needed the money."
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Alex- the lack of transparency regarding CAICA has been pointed out numerous times.
e.g. Isabelle publishes statements like the one below on her blogs, but on the CAICA website, you will find nothing to confirm that there even is a Board of Directors, much less who the members are.
Second, Zehnder has been asked numerous times on the PURE/CAICA bullshit thread about this very issue and has yet to respond.
Perhaps you can find out the answer to these simple questions:
Does CAICA have a Board of Directors? If so, when was it formed and who are the members?
CAICA could not exist without you - its dedicated Board of Directors, Volunteers, and those who Support our work."
Let's start there.
Full Disclosure.
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Board of Directors
Editorial Board
NPC Committee
Research Committee
Parent Committee
Case In Point:
The above can be found on CAICA's frontpage. No links, no details, no nuthin'.
Personally, I find this particulary odd in that some of Izzy's blogs are signed: CAICA Editorial Board. So who's the Editorial Board writing these blogs?
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Everyone damn well knows there's NO ONE behind Izzy's biz, it's ALL her!
::bangin::
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TS, you don't have to tell me. Got that part. There are so many people out there that you don't know about, trust me.
The big problem with all of this shit is we parents are baited from the git-go, doesn't matter who it is, and we don't see it coming until we've already taken the bate, been hauled in, or netted, then it's too late, we've been hooked, and guilty by association, but not by our own devious intentions, but more by our stupidity, and desperation, which serves people like this and WWASP to no end, while their wallets are getting full, they are depleting our families, financially, spritually, and emotionally.
I would liken them to Vampires, sucking me dry of any and all blood in the name of business as usual, with a little note left on the nightstand reading: "Nothing personal, just needed the money."
Yep.. and you better believe that the mere existence of Sue and Izzy benifits WWASP. Not only did Sue refer to them once upon a time a case can be made for the bungling of investigations, lawsuits, and other affairs by the involvement of Sue or Izzy.
Vampires describe them perfectly. What does that make Alex P? One of their ghouls?
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Mr. Koroknay-Palicz,
Since you are way too busy to click over to the PURE BULLSHIT and CAICA thread and read for yourself:
Have you read the Whitmore Blogs that Isabelle Zehnder and her friend Sue Scheff have written which promote the defunct Whitmore Academy?
http:www.whitmoreacademy.blogspot.com/
These blogs also praise and promote the owners, Mark and Cheryl Sudweeks, who have broken laws in three (countries): Canada, Mexico and the United States.
Mark Sudweeks was found guilty of Felony Animal Abuse, and lost the appeal; was fined over $100K, and was banned from owning animal for life in Canada. Regina vs Sudweeks.
The Sudweeks, along with minor children were evicted from Mexico for running a facility without a license.
Cherly Sudweeks accepted a Plea Bargain in the Whitmore Academy criminal case in Nephi, Utah and she is banned from operating a facility in Juab County for life.
The documents discussing the above can be read on the ISAC website:
www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)
You may want to ask your friend, Izzy why she writes such blogs, attacking parents and victims while promoting a closed down facility and praising criminals. Could you do that?
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Gentlefucks, if you're going to attack him for supporting Izzy, post as many links as you've got as to why Izzy and PURE are fucking evil.
Yes, we know you know. But HE doesn't know. Enlighten him.
He was informed all about Izzy 2 months ago on cafety. His failure to do any sort of adequate research is his own failure.
He MOST certainly DOES KNOW.
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Alex Koroknay-Palicz is listed as "Administation" on CAFETY.
What's his job/position on CAFETY?
Doesn't CAFETY have a Board of Directors?
Does this Board of Directors know one of their "Administration" members
approves of referring children to programs that are simply "less abusive" than WWASP facilities?
This seems disturbing, to say the least.
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TS, not that I am an expert on vampire behavior, but, as I recall, they either devour their victims, or leave them helplessly bleeding to death, slowly, while they continuously feed on them, for long periods of time, torturing them, and prolonging their ulitimate death. Sort of like a cat playing with a rat, and beating the shit out of it, but just not enough to kill it, but long enough`to still get some sort of stimulous when it does move, and keep torturing it until if finally gives up, and moves onto the next victim.
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Please Alex, if you understand nothing else - understand this ...
There is nothing petty about exposing corruption in this industry. What you call "infighting" is in fact - dedicated advocates and activists BLOWING THE WHISTLE.
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In WW2 Hitler was an evil SOB. Stalin was also an evil SOB. We worked with Stalin so we could take out Hitler and then we worried about fighting the USSR after Hitler was defeated. If it helps you, think of Izzy as Stalin (I’m sure you guys won’t find that hard to do). She may not be our best friend, but she is the enemy of our enemy. Hitler (i.e. WWASPS and other type programs) is the real threat. And if Izzy helps fighting them, her help should be embraced. Once our common enemy is done, then the Cold War can start up and we can go after Izzy and the programs she supports. But one thing at a time. If the US and Britain declared war on both Hitler AND Stalin then we would have been destroyed.
But we didn't go after Stalin after we mutually defeated Hitler. We gave Stalin and his successors permission to oppress the eastern European countries for almost 50 years.
We were complacent. We decided that even though communist oppression was bad, it was not as bad as Third Reich oppression.
Your WW2 analogy perfectly describes the situation with 'advocates' who are complacent with "milder abuse" than the abuse that existed before.
Complacency, more than anything else, is the danger of alliances such as these.
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In the interest of full disclosure here is the current Board of Directors of Youth ACT/CAFETY, however they are subject to change as there are some issues of the abilities of some board members to function in their duties
Kat Whitehead
Brian Lombrowski
T.J. Curtis
Charles Huffine
Lorrin Gehring
Alex K. Palicz
Andy Domenico
Donna Green
Mor Keshet
Marvin Alexander
Tricia Gurley
Dani Moore
I did have the chance to meet with Kat today and she was not aware of NYRA close association with CAICA, which I was not aware that she was not aware of. We removed our link from CAICA maybe a year ago, and for good reason. I will grant Alex the benefit of the doubt that he doesn't completely comprehend how a program that commits less abuse, can actually be as abusive. His major was political science, not psychology after all. We have graciously accepted the opportunity to explain the phenonmena of residential treatment/gulag schools to the membership of NYRA, and I would expect after our thorough explanation of the issue that he and the rest of the membership of NYRA will choose to disassociate themselves from CAICA once they understand how CAICA enables programs that are in fact just as bad as WWASP programs.
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Thank you Brian - your effort to clarify by providing full-disclosure is much appreciated.
:tup:
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I did have the chance to meet with Kat today and she was not aware of NYRA close association with CAICA, which I was not aware that she was not aware of. We removed our link from CAICA maybe a year ago, and for good reason. I will grant Alex the benefit of the doubt that he doesn't completely comprehend how a program that commits less abuse, can actually be as abusive. His major was political science, not psychology after all. We have graciously accepted the opportunity to explain the phenonmena of residential treatment/gulag schools to the membership of NYRA, and I would expect after our thorough explanation of the issue that he and the rest of the membership of NYRA will choose to disassociate themselves from CAICA once they understand how CAICA enables programs that are in fact just as bad as WWASP programs.
I'm reminded of the very long and involved email exchange that swirled back and forth between Heal, Cafety, Tausa, and Alex regarding almost this same exact issue. Mr. Palicz has had plenty of time to do his research. He claims he speaks for children, yet he has an association with an odious organization like Caica?
He should have done his damn research a year ago. Still that was then and this is now. Unless Mr. Palicz, and the NYRA, is willing to immediately withdraw his support of CAICA after this educational opprotunity to occur next weekend, I feel it imperative that CAFETY withdraw itself from the alliance they have forged with the NYRA and Mr. Palicz immediately be voted off the Cafety board of directors.
Failure to do so should result in a boycott against cafety. How exactly that works on an internet forum is beyond me, but I'm sure some clever chap can figure all that out.
I'm certain though the news about this devil's alliance should and will be brought to the attention of AStart and other organizations to allow them the chance to distance themselves from both Cafety and the NYRA if they feel the need to do so.
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Failure to do so should result in a boycott against cafety.
I totally agree.
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CAFETY is a member of the REFERRAL FREE ZONE, is it not?
If CAFETY is going to Link to NYRA and then NYRA in turn LINKS to CAICA; this is an indirect link to Sue Scheff /PURE.
Alex is the Executive Director of NYRA and he has stated his postition that referring children to programs that are "less abusive than WWASP facilities" is just fine with him, and his organization, NYRA.
Alex has stated his position that his organization will continue to link to and support Isabelle Zehnder and CAICA.
Isabelle Zehnder, CAICA links to and highly supports Sue Scheff/PURE.
Isabelle Zehnder has referred a child to Scheff/PURE for placement in a program by her own admission.
Isabelle Zehnder also wrote an email by which she referred to Scheff/PURE and to Sunrise Adolescent Transport service.
Isabelle Zehnder made Sue Scheff CAICA's "Advocate of the Month"
Cafety's continued association with NYRA which supports and links to CAICA--- is a strong, indirect association with Scheff/PURE.
How can Cafety claim to advocate against programs for children; and it's status as a REFERRAL FREE ZONE if Alex Koroknay-Palicz is allowed to continue as a Board Member, and if Cafety continues to link to NYRA under the present conditions?
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Alex has made his position and his support of Isabelle Zehnder, CAICA clear for months. How can Katherine Whitehead claim to not be aware of Alex's strong support of Isabelle Zehnder? Doesn't Katherine Whitehead read her own forum?
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CAFETY is a member of the REFERRAL FREE ZONE, is it not?
Nope.
If CAFETY is going to Link to NYRA and then NYRA in turn LINKS to CAICA; this is an indirect link to Sue Scheff /PURE.
Yup, and Alex has publicly called going after Izzy a "witchhunt".
Alex is the Executive Director of NYRA and he has stated his postition that referring children to programs that are "less abusive than WWASP facilities" is just fine with him, and his organization, NYRA.
Yup.
Alex has stated his position that his organization will continue to link to and support Isabelle Zehnder and CAICA.
Yup
Isabelle Zehnder, CAICA links to and highly supports Sue Scheff/PURE.
No!??! Really?!?!?
Isabelle Zehnder has referred a child to Scheff/PURE for placement in a program by her own admission.
*whistles*
Isabelle Zehnder also wrote an email by which she referred to Scheff/PURE and to Sunrise Adolescent Transport service.
She claime she had no clue about Sunrise being WWASP associated.
Isabelle Zehnder made Sue Scheff CAICA's "Advocate of the Month"
Yup
Cafety's continued association with NYRA which supports and links to CAICA--- is a strong, indirect association with Scheff/PURE.
Perty much
How can Cafety claim to advocate against programs for children; and it's status as a REFERRAL FREE ZONE if Alex Koroknay-Palicz is allowed to continue as a Board Member, and if Cafety continues to link to NYRA under the present conditions?
Cafety is not part of the referral free zone. Kat should clean house if she's serious about shutting this industry down.
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I said something to this effect a couple of weeks ago, and someone beat me over the head. See! The truth comes out. You just have to keep digging.
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Psy, 2 Questions:
CAFETY is not a member of the REFERRAL FREE ZONE?
Since when does CAICA not link to Sue Scheff / PURE?
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Of Course Izzy is still linking to Sue Scheff/Pure.
www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org)
Parent's Corner: "Depression and Your Teen" www.helpyourteen.com (http://www.helpyourteen.com)
"Helpful Hints When Searching for TBS or RTC for Your Child"
http://helpyourteens.com/helpful.hints.html/ (http://helpyourteens.com/helpful.hints.html/)
Links and Helpful Books
Parents Universal Resources (PURE)
Click here, and go directly to the PURE website.
Wits End by Sue Scheff
Mommy Mentors website; read messages to Sue Scheff by Izzy
That's about all the links to Sue Scheff/PURE I cared to read in one short setting. But, yea---Izzy is still linked to Scheff/PURE.
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Psy, 2 Questions:
CAFETY is not a member of the REFERRAL FREE ZONE?
Since when does CAICA not link to Sue Scheff / PURE?
Question 1: no. go to http://www.referralfreezone.info (http://www.referralfreezone.info) and see for yourself.
Question 2: Today, apparantly. You'd have to talk to Isabelle about her reasons why.
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So even the Izzy Whitmore blog is gone?
LOLS - that's really rich! Wonder what happened?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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LOLS - that's really rich! Wonder what happened?
Tis a complete mystery to me.
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Balonley
PURE still links to CAICA
And CAICA (Positive Family Solutions) still links to PURE
http://www.positivefamilysolutions.com/ ... links.html (http://www.positivefamilysolutions.com/positivefamilysolutionlinks.html)
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Hmmmm
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Yup - looks to me like Izzy has selectively deleted PURE from CAICA and blogs - but NOT her for-profit company, Positive Family Solutions.
Could it be this is just a shameless attempt to get off the D-List of Advocacy-Referral websites?
Who knows? The CAICA website reeks of self-promotion, not unlike her pal Sue Scheff.
Of course, this could be a pre-emptive strike given what may be coming down the road. (See Deb's post on PURE/CAICA bullshit thread)
:roll:
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double post
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Yup - looks to me like Izzy has selectively deleted PURE from CAICA and blogs - but NOT her for-profit company, Positive Family Solutions.
Could it be this is just a shameless attempt to get off the D-List of Advocacy-Referral websites?
Who knows? The CAICA website reeks of self-promotion, not unlike her pal Sue Scheff.
Of course, this could be a pre-emptive strike given what may be coming down the road. (See Deb's post on PURE/CAICA bullshit thread)
:roll:
Perhaps she is in the process of deleting them. Links to PURE are (sadly) all over her sites. Perhaps a search and replace through the site (using dreamweaver, for example) would make things more efficient.
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Why would Zehnder ditch Scheff or at least, want to give the appearance of doing so?
Come on folks. Something ain't adding up here.
:rofl:
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what evidence is there that Izzy refers to programs?
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Izzy has admitted in her own blog that she referred a child to a program through Scheff/PURE.
Then, there is the Patti Atwoods email from Izzy referring to Scheff/PURE and to Sunrise Adolescent Transports.
Izzy presents her own evidence that she refers.
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I said something to this effect a couple of weeks ago, and someone beat me over the head. See! The truth comes out. You just have to keep digging.
My apologies. I was the first to say that CAFETY was nothing like Pure, Sue Scheff, Izzy et al. I'm still reserving judgement for the moment, but nonetheless I was evidently too hasty in claiming that CAFETY is blameless. Guess that was naive.
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Why would Zehnder ditch Scheff or at least, want to give the appearance of doing so?
Whoever knows, ain't saying.
Which is another reason why I call BULLSHIT.
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I received emails asking if I knew why Isabelle Zehnder had removed the disgraceful Whitmore Blog she wrote? My reply was, "I had no idea why this woman wrote this blog in the first place."
I checked Zehnder's blog page, and it does appear that it has been removed, for the time being anyway. Zehnder's massive list of blogs is attached.
Perhaps Zehnder can write A NEW BLOG that is a public apology to the Whitmore parents and their children who were victimized at the Whitmore Academy; since she choose to re-victiimise them in this vicious Whitmore Blog that is filled with lies.
None of the Whitmore parents I have spoken to can understand why Zehnder ever supported the defunct Whitmore Academy and the Sudweeks, who have broken laws in three countries, in the first place; and have questioned her motives for writing this blog..
Perhaps Zehnder can convince her friend, Sue Scheff to remove the Whitmore Blog she wrote, too.
Hopefully, Isabelle Zehnder will leave this Whitmore Blog off the internet. It should have never have been written.
Isabelle Zehnder
About Me
I am the Founder and President of the Coalition Against Institutionalized Child Abuse (CAICA). After learning what's wrong, I'm trying to find ways to make it right and to help keep families together whenever possible. I have recently founded Positive Family Solutions, LLC where I provide coaching to parents and teens.
Blogs
Blog Name Team Members
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): Compelling! Over the GW
WALTER McNEIL
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: Help for Parents of Teens
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): ATTORNEY RICHARD RENO
Isabelle Zehnder: Abuse at Florida DJJ's Joann Bridges Academy
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): ADVOCATES OF THE MONTH
Isabelle Zehnder - CAICA Fundraiser
Positive Family Solutions: Empty Nest
MORE ABUSE IN FLORIDA DJJ: GREENVILLE HILLS
POSITIVE FAMILY SOLUTIONS: Teen drinking
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): Over the GW Pt. 2 WWASPS
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Caleb Jensen dies at 15
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Danielle Gruskowski
TASH Teleconference
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: Troubled Teens
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): 3 missing pregnant teens
ISABELLE ZEHNDER Family and Life Coaching
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): CHRISTOPHER SHOLLY ABUSED IN FLORIDA DJJ
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Bubbles in my milk
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: Parents, keep children close
ISABELLE ZEHNDER / ROSE MOORE INTERVIEW
DOZIER SCHOOL FOR BOYS: REX UBERMAN HAILS CHANGES
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Autism - Amanda Baggs "In My Language"
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: TRUTH ABOUT CAICA
Randall Hinton: Foster Child in Residential Care
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): A call for change
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): PARENTS OF STRUGGLING TEENS
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Ban shock treatment and aversives on children
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): Staff at AYA
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): STRUGGLING TEENS
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Caleb Jensen Memorial
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): Utah Child Abuse Contact
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: Florida juvenile facilities
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: Abuse at Tranquility Bay
MORE ALLEGED ABUSE AT FLORIDA DJJ
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): Karen Lyle WWASPS Seminars
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): 2006/7 ACCOMPLISHMENTS
Isabelle Zehnder: Teens and cutting
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Majestic Ranch, Utah
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Jonathan Carey Restraint Death
Robert Lichfield - Mitt Romney
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): 3 homes closed
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): DJJ ABUSE VIDEO RELEASED
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): Over the GW Coming Soon
CAICA Advocate of the Month: MARK CALDWELL
CALL FOR STAFF IN FLORIDA JUVENILE JUSTICE SYSTEM
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): TEEN HELP
ISABELLE ZEHNDER, FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT OF CAICA
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Restraints that kill kids
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: Dove Academy Florida
Romney Utah Money Co-Chair Sued
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Kerry Layne Brown
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Tranquility Bay
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Danielle's Act
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Florida Plea to Crist
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): Florida child abuse
ABOUT ISABELLE ZEHNDER
PATTI ATWOODS - CAICA Sets the record straight
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Attention Staff: A call for help
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): In Memory of Matthew Goodwin
CHILD ABUSE USA
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): RANDALL HINTON ARRESTED - ROYAL GORGE ACADEMY
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): DOZIER SCHOOL FOR BOYS ABUSE
JUSTIN CALDWELL - ABUSED AT DOZIER SCHOOL FOR BOYS
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Children are Dying
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: BEST INTENTIONS
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Autism
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: Changes at WWASPS' Tranquility Bay
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF JUVENILE JUSTICE (DJJ)
Isabelle Zehnder: CHILD, TEEN, PARENT COACHING
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Joey Aletriz, one year later
Isabelle Zehnder (CAICA): Autism
Isabelle Zehnder: CHILD ABUSE PREVENTION MONTH
Romney Lichfield
ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA): Kendall Ross Bean Seminar Experience
ISABELLE ZEHNDER: Turn a negative into a positive
Contact
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Thanks Rachel. Someone else on that thread also twisted what I said, but that happens here a lot by trolls. So thanks again.
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It's already been speculated she may have removed the whitmore blog because of a cease and desist letter, or threat of a lawsuit, but really, who knows? As you say, maybe she will post another blog, explaining why she deleted that particular blog along with the others that promote her relationship with Sue Scheff?
Personally, I don't believe there is much she can do to rehabilitate her own reputation. She got caught with her hand in the cookie jar (so to speak) with the referrals to PURE and that transport company by her OWN WORDS and ACTIONS.
That's not something one just walks away from saying "oops". The damage has been done. IMO.
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
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Thanks Rachel. Someone else on that thread also twisted what I said, but that happens here a lot by trolls. So thanks again.
I apologize, let me rephrase that, you didn't twist what I said, somene else did.
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Isabelle Zehnder associated herself with Sue Scheff and the referral business; she certainly can not claim ignorance. Izzy was slick enough to slap a disclaimer on these deceitful blogs she wrote; that says it all IMO.
Izzy referred to Scheff/PURE and to Sunrise Adolescent Transport; and she want to say she was "tricked?" No, she just got caught!
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Doesn't much matter what Isabelle does at this point. She could go squeal her guts out to the entire world about Sue and it wouldn't matter.
Her list of transgressions goes back quite a bit further than just referring a kid/kids to facilities.
Isabelle needs to think about getting a day job and getting out of this business all together.
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Just throw it away. THATS IT!
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bump
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How do we keep the public's attention on the corruption and maltreatment of our children?
How do we undo the brainwashing of those like Dr. Phil?
I don't believe that everyone is motivate by greed and power - but many rotten apples have spoiled the "industry".
This needs to stop being an INDUSTRY and realize it serves human beings, it needs to become ........?
In response to a previous thread - it all comes down to money! The good, the bad and the ugly - the fat cats (no insult intended to felines) all want to make money and drive their big fancy Lexasses.
I wondered what $450+ pd bought - it certainly was not the salaries they paid the people out in the field, nor for upkeep. They have turned what might have been a morally commendable goal to help others in need - to filling their greedy hands. Leaving others to pay for their immoral behavior with blood, sweat and tears.
Is it idealism that brings a (young) therapist to a program? What makes them stay once their eyes are open? I don't believe it is an innate desire for power and control. Is it that they are brainwashed and beaten down and feel impotent - that they take it out on the clients?
I am not a professional, just a parent, and I don't know what it would really take to make this work... but -
I have a dream of not just a good program but a great program. One run by licensed mental health professionals, families, communities, survivors - who believe they can make a positive and meaningful difference in the lives they touch.
The program would have to be 100% transparent to all, all the time, anytime.
It would be a leader on the cutting edge of mental health care, using evidence based practices, collaborative team building with all the stakeholders, clients, families and communities.
Serving all children and families in need, regardless of class.
Everyone involved would be highly and consistently trained and supported. There would be continual on-going training. All would be accountable for their actions, being role models and working towards creating that elusive therapeutic milieu.
The therapists (licsw, psy d, mhc)- would be involved every step pf the way. No once or twice a week bs. They would be an integral part of what was going on, they would be part of daily life, they would be involved in the nitty gritty, they would be there to support and encourage growth. They would be the front line.
The environment would foster cause and effect, accountability, and the means for growth. It would not be punitive but compassionate and supportive.
Demeaning & abusive behavior of any kind would be out, unnecessary hardships would be out. The consequences to actions would be appropriate for all, not just for the kids.
Family involvement is essential - without family work the child's growth would be in a vacuum, unrealistic, unsustainable and without meaning.
It rained very hard last night. I woke up thinking "if my kid was out in the wilderness in this rain, wind, mud, if he were wet and cold, hungry and afraid, depressed and angry - how by any means would this be therapeutic?
In the mean time, I was touched by a post (I think by a dad) talking about getting the therapeutic benefits by doing community service (ie Habitats for Humanity) or hiking with your kid on a family vacation. Yeah!
:moon: :moon: :rasta: :rasta: