Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Karass on July 06, 2007, 07:03:45 PM
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The private prison industry sounds a lot like the private 'troubled teen' industry. The warden at this GEO Group owned facility ruled “based on verbal and physical intimidation.” Sounds a lot like an adult version of many of the wonderful teen facilities profiled on Fornits.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19638219/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19638219/)
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Dude I just came here to post the same story :rofl: . The parallels between the two industries are just mind bending, the ways of mistreatment seem to be universal. Question, when do the major players in the teen help industry get in on this?
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I worked with a counselor at 3 springs who used to work at one of those private prisons in the middle of Oklahoma. Striking similarities.. with the exception that the guards carried weapons.
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I don't see the comparison.
This man was a convicted child molester. He was charged in a court of law and found guilty by a group of his peers.
The kids in these squalid teenage facilities are put there by one or two of their parents. They can be kidnapped in the dark of the night without anyone knowing. This bears more resemblance to political imprisonment from the Soviet gulag system, than does the American justice system.
A comparable case would be if the president of the company you work for decided that you, as an adult, were not living up to your potential as a worker, so you are kidnapped in the dark of the night, and sent to a worker re-education camp. You will be stripped of your dignity and hope, and re-tooled to never enage in such idle thought as questioning your long work day again.
A child molestor slit his own throat. Good for him, the world is better off. I''m sure the victim might of wanted to do it themselves. This guy is so selfish he actually then blames the prison system and gets this posthumous pity party (program language gotta love it). This guy manipulated the media is all.
He had a a grand jury.
A lawyer.
A trial.
A judge.
An appeal.
Access to phones.
Access to letters.
A chance to defend himself in front of his peers.
These kids get:
2 big fat men with handcuffs in their room at 2 AM
or parents lying to them saying it's a summer camp or something
When people are convicted of crimes many times their families rally around them, even murderrs and these piece of shit molesters. The 'state' is a faceless beauracracy trying to break you, in an institution. These programs arei n your face, paid for by only your parents. It is your family that is paying to havce you broken. It is a completely different psychological experience. It would be as if you are charged with a crime and your parents go out for coffee with the prosecutor eah night to talk shit about you and laugh as you go to jail.
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Dude I just came here to post the same story :rofl: . The parallels between the two industries are just mind bending, the ways of mistreatment seem to be universal. Question, when do the major players in the teen help industry get in on this?
Child molesters deserve to be mistreated, harshly if possible.
Kids in these teen help industry gulags, did not committ any crime, in almost allcases, did absolutely nothing wrong. If they did it's usually self-destructive. something deserving of treatment not psychological destruction.
I think by comparing prisons to these teen faciltiies it makes it seem like they are filled with teenage criminal delinquents and nothing ccould be further from the truth. They are filled with good, smart, descrent kids caught up in this wide net they troll parents with.
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Dude I get what you're trying to say but abuse is abuse and nothing justifies it.
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What a trip, I just found a similiar site and was going to post. I can post that link too, if wanted.
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Ha ha ha, "Simi-Liar" :rofl: :rofl:
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Dude I get what you're trying to say but abuse is abuse and nothing justifies it.
Molesting a child does. The comparison doesn't hold water, imo.
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Unless of course, you can find a prison full of INNOCENT people that are being mistreated?
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Dude I get what you're trying to say but abuse is abuse and nothing justifies it.
Child abuse justifies it...an eye for an eye.
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Really, there's no comparing programs w/ jail, no matter how abusive. Those in jail have legal representation, habeas corpus rights, etc. And usually they've done something wrong. That's a pretty huge difference. They've hurt other people, willingly, knowingly hurt people. And so they are put away so as not to hurt more people. We, on the other hand, were put in abusive places by parents who had decided they didn't like the kid they got, so sent it away to get a new one. My mother paid 150$/day to have me destroyed so that she could get a brand new shinier version of me back. A kid who wasn't interested in social justice, a kid who shaved her legs and wore makeup, and wanted to go to prom. She didn't like me and wanted something prettier. So I was broken in the most horrific of ways.
That is radically different from a child molester having to deal with "water on the floor 24/7" and "a smelly pillow".
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You truly put yourself on a slippery slope when you justify abuse based on a persons assumed crimes. If it's ok to abuse a sex offender why not a druggie? or an assumed druggie? What/who's moral scale do we use to tell us who it's ok to mistreatment and for what reason? The people that abused those of you who were in programs held the same basic think you display here. Your label as troubled teen, irrespective of it's bases in reality, was all that was necessary to justify your mistreatment. Not every inmate in these private prisons are sex offenders, or guilty for that matter. So what, are you all subscribing to a circle of loss theory?
Inmates have rights, yes... You as teens had rights. Abuse doesn't respect a persons rights by nature so any argument that inmates have rights is stupid and misses the point. Someone said that child molesters deserve mistreatment? Well you are in luck because they are mistreated, the teenage ones anyway. These kids are not sexual predators, many get locked up for having consensual sex. They face court ordered sex offender "treatment" that includes forced masturbation to sick stories of abuse, skin shocks and the use nauseous agents to aversely affect them sexually, they have to submit to "penis testing" that involves being forced to wear a ring around their privates that measures their response to graphic pornography. These kids are forced to talk about and do things that would emotionally kill the most headstrong adult, not to mention scared and growing children. But it's ok because they are convicted sex offenders who had a trial and lawyer and "rights".
And what about the lady mentioned on page 2 of the story who killed herself after being sexually assaulted and then sexually humiliated by a GEO guard after reporting to the warden that guards allowed male and female inmates to have sex. Is this ok because she was an inmate?
What happened to you in program wasn't wrong because your mommy did it to you or because you weren't a bad person. The abuse you all experienced would not be ok under some other circumstance. You don't treat people like dogs, abuse is wrong no matter the reason. We can justify all manners of evils if we hold to the believe that these "evils" are ok "sometimes". Please wake up!!! Thats what happened to you!!
This story's parallel to teen programs is that we have people who are locked away in private institutions where their rights are violated, they are lorded over by unqualified and abusive guards who rule with "verbal and physical intimidation", The living conditions mirror what has been said about places like Casa by the Sea, TB and other lock'em up and forget'em teen gulags, and allegations of abuse are ignored( one can assume because just like teen manipulators these people are just inmates). Let me not forget to add that these places rake in a big profit.
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we as teens had no rights whatsoever! we had no lawyer/public defender and no way of contesting our incarceration. this teen industry goes unregulated and unmonitored and exploites every nonprofit bussiness loophole there is! this is an abusive cult industry fighting the war on drugs not at the boarders but in our backyards making pow's of teenagers stripping them of their dignity, human rights, their hearts and minds berfore they reach adulthood they are broken and trust noone
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You truly put yourself on a slippery slope when you justify abuse based on a persons assumed crimes. If it's ok to abuse a sex offender why not a druggie? or an assumed druggie? What/who's moral scale do we use to tell us who it's ok to mistreatment and for what reason?
Who said anything about assumed crimes? Let's not muddy the waters. Child molestation is CRIMINAL in the true sense of the word and being a "druggie" isn't (well, it shouldn't be), so there is no comparison there.
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You truly put yourself on a slippery slope when you justify abuse based on a persons assumed crimes. If it's ok to abuse a sex offender why not a druggie? or an assumed druggie? What/who's moral scale do we use to tell us who it's ok to mistreatment and for what reason? The people that abused those of you who were in programs held the same basic think you display here. Your label as troubled teen, irrespective of it's bases in reality, was all that was necessary to justify your mistreatment. Not every inmate in these private prisons are sex offenders, or guilty for that matter. So what, are you all subscribing to a circle of loss theory?
Inmates have rights, yes... You as teens had rights. Abuse doesn't respect a persons rights by nature so any argument that inmates have rights is stupid and misses the point. Someone said that child molesters deserve mistreatment? Well you are in luck because they are mistreated, the teenage ones anyway. These kids are not sexual predators, many get locked up for having consensual sex. They face court ordered sex offender "treatment" that includes forced masturbation to sick stories of abuse, skin shocks and the use nauseous agents to aversely affect them sexually, they have to submit to "penis testing" that involves being forced to wear a ring around their privates that measures their response to graphic pornography. These kids are forced to talk about and do things that would emotionally kill the most headstrong adult, not to mention scared and growing children. But it's ok because they are convicted sex offenders who had a trial and lawyer and "rights".
And what about the lady mentioned on page 2 of the story who killed herself after being sexually assaulted and then sexually humiliated by a GEO guard after reporting to the warden that guards allowed male and female inmates to have sex. Is this ok because she was an inmate?
What happened to you in program wasn't wrong because your mommy did it to you or because you weren't a bad person. The abuse you all experienced would not be ok under some other circumstance. You don't treat people like dogs, abuse is wrong no matter the reason. We can justify all manners of evils if we hold to the believe that these "evils" are ok "sometimes". Please wake up!!! Thats what happened to you!!
This story's parallel to teen programs is that we have people who are locked away in private institutions where their rights are violated, they are lorded over by unqualified and abusive guards who rule with "verbal and physical intimidation", The living conditions mirror what has been said about places like Casa by the Sea, TB and other lock'em up and forget'em teen gulags, and allegations of abuse are ignored( one can assume because just like teen manipulators these people are just inmates). Let me not forget to add that these places rake in a big profit.
The comparison, is way off base. If you want to compare yourself to a child molester, go right ahead but leave me out of it.
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These kids are not sexual predators, many get locked up for having consensual sex. They face court ordered sex offender "treatment" that includes forced masturbation to sick stories of abuse, skin shocks and the use nauseous agents to aversely affect them sexually, they have to submit to "penis testing" that involves being forced to wear a ring around their privates that measures their response to graphic pornography.
From the article:
After months alone in his cell, Scot Noble Payne finished 20 pages of letters, describing to loved ones the decrepit conditions of the prison where he was serving time for molesting a child.
Then Payne used a razor blade to slice two 3-inch gashes in his throat. Guards found his body in the cell's shower, with the water still running.
"Try to comfort my mum too and try to get her to see that I am truly happy again," he wrote his uncle. "I tell you, it sure beats having water on the floor 24/7, a smelly pillow case, sheets with blood stains on them and a stinky towel that hasn't been changed since they caught me."
What kids are you talking about? This is a grown man who molested a child, couldn't handle the wet pillow, wrote twenty pages of trying-to-change-the-subject letters to make himself the victim instead of the child. This is a story about a disgusting man who victimizes kids, that's it. Child molestation regularly occurs at programs. Ask me how much pity I have for them? They deserve the death penalty as far as I am concerned, if they molest a child.
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More about this molester:
June 6, 2007 AP
A private prison guard in Texas who company officials say helped an Idaho inmate escape by providing an envelope stuffed with money has been convicted in a separate case of providing contraband to another Idaho prisoner. John Ratliffe, a former guard at the Dickens County Correctional Center where hundreds of Idaho inmates are housed due to overcrowding at home, was sentenced last month to five years probation, 120 hours of community service and a $1,000 fine for giving cigarettes to Idaho inmate Patterson Franklin, according to court records obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press. Ratliffe pleaded guilty. The problems surfaced starting Dec. 3 when sex offender Scot Noble Payne escaped through a prison kitchen door and scaled a fence. Afterward, Ratliffe acknowledged to his bosses at the prison run by Florida-based The GEO Group that he used Franklin as an intermediary to provide illegal items, including tobacco, underwear, sex tapes, music — and at least $200 Payne had with him when he was caught Dec. 10, according to an eight-page report compiled by GEO officials following the escape. Payne committed suicide March 4 after weeks in an isolation cell. He had been isolated as punishment for his escape. Officials say guard can avoid prison sentence.
http://www.privateci.org/texas.htm (http://www.privateci.org/texas.htm)
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more:
Dickens County Correctional Facility, Spur, Texas
June 6, 2007 AP
Under terms of his contraband sentence, a Texas prison guard who provided illegal materials to Idaho inmates will only go to prison if he violates conditions of his release. Those conditions include staying out of “honky tonks” and “beer joints,” according to court documents. John Ratliffe, a former guard at the Dickens County Correctional Center where hundreds of Idaho inmates are housed, is also implicated in providing assistance to an inmate’s escape. But Ratliffe has denied knowing Payne planned to escape. Footprints matched to Payne, who later committed suicide, were found near Ratliffe’s home. Dickens County prosecutors couldn’t be reached for comment on whether Ratliffe faces additional charges related to the escape. Attempts to reach Ratliffe were unsuccessful. His telephone number in Paducah isn’t listed. The 43-year-old Payne was among inmates shipped to Dickens and another nearby facility in Littlefield, Texas, in August 2006 due to problems they experienced at another Texas facility, the Newton County Correctional Center. Those included incidents in which the inmates were punched and doused with pepper spray by guards. Both prisons are operated by The GEO Group of Florida. GEO officials said they took quick action upon learning in December about Ratliffe’s contraband operation. It included setting up a post office box where at least some prisoners’ families sent items or money to be transferred to inmates, according to documents. “When we have incidents of this kind, we conduct a full investigation, and if disciplinary action is required, we take that action properly, and that’s what we did in this case,” said Pablo Paez, a GEO spokesman. Ratliffe was placed on unpaid leave, then fired, Paez said. Records show a chaotic scene in Paducah before Payne was finally cornered by search dogs in a nearby riverbed. Ratliffe allegedly threatened to commit suicide shortly after searchers found Payne’s footprints near his backyard fence, prompting Texas Rangers to transfer Ratliffe to the local courthouse “where a mental health warrant was signed by the judge,” according to the GEO report. Idaho officials said they learned of Ratliffe’s activities after Payne’s capture. “We found out about it on Dec. 11 in a conversation between Warden Ron Alford and our contract compliance person Sharon Lamm,” said Jeff Ray, a spokesman for Idaho prisons. Alford was transferred in March to another GEO prison, after complaints from Idaho about conditions at Dickens.
http://www.privateci.org/rap_geo.html (http://www.privateci.org/rap_geo.html)
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BOISE, Idaho - A sex offender from Idaho has apparently killed himself in a prison in Texas, where he'd been shipped with about 400 other inmates from Idaho to ease overcrowding in prisons here. Forty-three-year-old Scott Noble Payne was found unresponsive and bleeding in a shower about one in the morning yesterday. He died just over an hour later.
Prison officials say a razor was used to cause the wounds. Payne had been in the news before: He escaped the same facility in December and spent a week on the run. After that escape, he'd been put in isolation at the Dickens County Correction Center. He was sentenced to up to 20 years in December 2002 in Ada County for lewd and lascivious conduct with a minor under 16.
http://www.geocities.com/voicism/index-deaths.html (http://www.geocities.com/voicism/index-deaths.html)
This guy on the otherhand didn't need a smelly pillow...
Police say he admitted to fondling two little girls at his wife's in-home day care. On Wednesday, Ralph Guillette killed himself at the house where the alleged molestation took place. Police say 53 year-old Ralph Guillette was found near the back door of his house on Patchen Road in South Burlington. It's where his wife, Cheryl, has run a daycare for more than 15 years until last weekend when it was shut down.
Guillette reportedly shot himself as officers approached the house. Police were called to the home by a family member who was concerned he'd try to hurt himself. A suicide note was found. Guillette's suicide comes a day after he was in court to face charges for allegedly fondling a 7 year-old girl. And police say he admitted he molested a 5 year-old as well.
Since his court appearance, the Chittenden Unit for Special Investigations has received other calls from concerned people in the community. Some of those calls have pointed police to at least one other potential victim. Guillette had been released on bail after his arrest on Saturday. It's unclear what the suicide note said. Police did not indicate if there was an admission in it. The investigation into the suicide and
http://www.geocities.com/voicism/index-deaths.html (http://www.geocities.com/voicism/index-deaths.html)
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HERE IT IS A CRIME HE WAS CONVICTED OF
Witness recounts alleged 1989 rape in park
GRAND RAPIDS -- The 62-year-old rape victim has tried to move on and put the horror of what happened to her nearly two decades ago out of her mind.
But when offered the chance to put away the man she and police believe randomly brutalized her, she had to act.
"I have granddaughters. I dont want him out on the streets," said the woman.
She was 44 on Aug. 6, 1989, when she was approached by a man asking for a light for his cigarette as she walked home through Kentwoods Veterans Memorial Park on 48th Street east of South Division Avenue.
The man accused of the crime, 37-year-old Scott Payne, calmly watched her testify.
She told a Circuit Court jury Thursday that he then choked her, punched her in the face, hog-tied her with her own shoe-laces and then brutally raped her.
Payne, a convicted bank robber, is accused of raping multiple women in Wyoming and Kentwood in the summer of 1989. Today, the court is expected to hear about how a woman was raped at age 14 behind Grace Reformed Church on Burlingame Avenue SW on May 25, 1989.
Sounds like quite a guy, raping kids and adults and robbing banks for his whole life.. what a loss to us all. :roll:
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Wrong guy sorry.
Here is the story for this guy.
http://www.owyheepublishing.com/PastIss ... _09_02.pdf (http://www.owyheepublishing.com/PastIssues/2002/10_09_02.pdf)
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Here it is
Ada County jury
convicts Payne
on sex charges
An Owyhee County man
was convicted during a four
day jury trial in Ada County
last week of
the same
charges to
which was
p l e a
bargained
down last
year by the
O w y h e e
C o u n t y
prosecuting attorney.
Scot Payne was convicted
on two counts of lewd
and lascivious
conduct with a minor
under 16 in an Ada
County courtroom
after a jury
deliberated for just
short of two hours.
Payne was arrested
in Owyhee County
last year and charged
with lewd and
lascivious conduct with a 14-
year old girl, but the charge
was later reduced after he pled
guilty to felony aggravated
battery. He was sentenced in
January to three years in prison
and 10 years probation, with
the court retaining jurisdiction,
which means Owyhee County
could enforce up to 10 years in
prison if Payne did not meet
the terms of his agreement. He
served six months in a prison
facility in Cottonwood and was
released last summer.
Ada County Deputy
Prosecuting Attorney Jean
Fisher prosecuted the case and
said she was able to
do what Owyhee
County Prosecuting
Attorney Ed
Yarbrough didn’t.
“I think a travisty
of justice has been
commited in
Owyhee County,”
Fisher said Monday.
“I think the victim
deserved better, and
she got better here in Ada
County. Justice was served
here.”
Payne’s trial began last
Monday and ended Thursday.
Fisher said Richard Harris was
Payne’s defense attorney and a
jury of nine women and three
men convicted Payne.
“I have to give a huge plug
to Owyhee County Chief
Deputy Dick Freund,” Fisher
said. “He did an incredible
investigation. He had
everything ready for us to get a
conviction. It was a fabulous
investigation. If it wasn’t for
Chief Deputy Freund and the
young wittness, we may not
have gotten the conviction we
got. The witness was so
believeable. The pain she
actually felt was felt by
everyone in the room. She was
a very compelling witness.”
Freund said he was
extremely pleased with the
outcome of the trial.
“I was very, very impressed
with her (Fisher’s) ability to
prepare for this trial,” Freund
said. “I have not been this
prepared for trial in 15 years,
since (former prosecuting
attorney) Clayton Andersen.
She called me numerous times
and we met numerous times to
go over evidence.
“I feel that this is a beginning
point for this young girl to heal.
Now she can begin to heal
because before, that guy was
walking around. I don’t know
how many other young girls
were victimized by this guy,
but I know he had relationships
with other women who left him
because they were concerned
about their children. Now this
girl can begin the healing
process.”
Fisher said Payne would be
scheduled for sentencing in
December and she is still
seeking people in the area who
have some concerns in Payne’s
sentencing.
“I have a lot of work to do
before I know what I will be
asking for,” Fisher continued.
“I am interested in talking to
any family or any one who
may have any other
information on Payne.”
Fisher said Payne previously
worked for the Marsing School
District in, she believed, the
maintenance department. She
said if anyone has any further
information concerning Payne
to feel free to call her at the
Ada County Prosecuting
Attorney’s office. -CP
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You folks really are not getting this? This has nothing to do with what this guy did and he wasn't the only one abused by this private prison. My mention of the child sex offenders had to do with someone mentioning how thay felt it was just to mistreat sex offenders. I used the term "Assumed crimes" because when someone is locked up we just assume they are guilty of something bad. This is only important because some folks here have expressed that abuse is ok if the person is a criminal. In my view your crime or assumed crime has nothing to do with justifying abuse as it's always wrong in my book.(Let me state clearly the guilt of this guy has not been challenged by me or anyone else)
I understand that part of the teen program is the slandering of your character but that's not what I'm doing here. I'm not saying that teens in programs are the same kinds of people locked up in prison. I'm saying that both are being mistreated and it's wrong.
Stop being so thick this has nothing to do with drawing a parallel between the types of people in teen programs and prison. This is not about a review of criminal histories, it's about abusive conditions in prisons that mirror abusive conditions in teen programs.
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The parallels are simply these: "abuse" and "privately owned."
Whether society is better off or not without this particular scumbag is besides the point. Or do some of you think that human rights exist only in relation to one's behavior? If that's your belief, how is that different from the Program mentality?
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So when your kid was having problems at home you considered sending them to a privately owned prison? Or was it sold as treatment? Seems like a big difference to me.
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The private prison industry sounds a lot like the private 'troubled teen' industry. The warden at this GEO Group owned facility ruled “based on verbal and physical intimidation.” Sounds a lot like an adult version of many of the wonderful teen facilities profiled on Fornits.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19638219/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19638219/)
Prisons aren't cults, you need both to get a glimpse of wha ta program is like. They are different. Not to mention the kids arne't child molesters but others already did that.
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It is the raping of the mind, in addition to the body through lack of sanitary living conditions that lead to situations like attempted murder in programs for students to escape to jail. Why does something like this occur if the two are equally intolerable? Have you seen the WWASP documentary in which this is told?
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Or do some of you think that human rights exist only in relation to one's behavior?
Isn't that what the justice system is? Designed to allow due process in order to see whether it's just to take someone's rights away, say like freedom? I think this is a part of our society whether we like it or not.
If that's your belief, how is that different from the Program mentality?
So you wouldn't punish an employee of a program who sexually molested your kid while under his care? Would that be "too program mentality" for you to believe in punishment for this person if they molested your kid?
I think there are many more differences in the two situations than similarities. I would of understood if this was posted in open or tacticus, with the title, abusive prisons in america, but to try and relate this to the troubled teen industry to me makes no sense at all.
So to answer your question, yes I think child molesters should have their right to molest other kids taken away. No I don't think that makes me a hypocrite since parents feel that way about their child who is ditching school, or experimenting with drugs or whatever. If people cannot see the different between the two situations, something is wrong with their perspective.
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I'm no fan of child molesters either. However, I won't sanction barbarism either.
A single slug to the temple works wonders and is painless.
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A single slug to the temple works wonders and is painless.
(http://http://www.anythingxtreme.com/bimages/b/Bat-LU-MLBC243G.jpg)
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Yeah that works well also.
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I guess I shouldn't have spoken up for human rights -- at least not those of convicted violent felons.
Of course, privately owned prisons are not like cultish BM programs for teens. But maybe there is something to the fact that both are privately owned, not too closely scrutinized by the state, staffed by employees with questionable backgrounds and qualifications, and are able to get away with lots of things behind closed doors that would be a lot tougher to hide in a state-operated or monitored facility.
We reap what we sow, which is kind of the point of my signature quote. Most convicts don't serve life sentences, so they will eventually be back out on the streets -- just like most teen program inmates. Think about that before you decide what level of inhumanity or illegal treatment should be allowed.
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I think we are talking about two completely different issues here. I agree that all prisoners regardless of offense have certain basic rights including protection from abuse whether sexual, physical or psychological. However, what was described in the article as the cause of this child molester's suicide is not abuse. Having water on the floor (no matter how frequently) and a smelly pillow is not abuse. From my perspective it's insulting to suggest that it is. And the fact is that all prison inmates in N. America have more protection from abuse than we ever did simply in that they can tell someone when it happens and make it stop.
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Having water on the floor (no matter how frequently) and a smelly pillow is not abuse. From my perspective it's insulting to suggest that it is. And the fact is that all prison inmates in N. America have more protection from abuse than we ever did simply in that they can tell someone when it happens and make it stop.
The water and pillow thing was just one thing mentioned, go back and re-read it. This guy's suicide drew the intention of the authorities which revealed more problems, like what happened to that lady.
It's not true that inmates in jail have more protection from abuse or that they could just tell some one. The article mentioned how complaints from inmates and their family were ignored. Check this out link (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=21900&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=), and also look at the stories of juvi prisons like the Texas Youth Commission (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=21013). Inmate abuse is a big problem that largely gets ignored.
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I stand by everything I've posted, but I understand the greater issue at hand. Prison reform and the privatization of important public sector institutions are very important topics. However, they have nothing to do with "The Troubled Teen Industry" (except in the case of juvenile programs - which we were not discussing). Posting such a topic in this forum suggests a direct correlation. The implication that the systemically abusive "troubled teen industry" is in any way comparable to the occasional isolated case or pocket of abuse in the prison industry is virulently objectionable and I take offense. This discussion belongs in the "Open free for all" forum along with issues like the Rwandan genocide and other such genuine but unrelated issues.
We were not legitimate prisoners, and care should be taken to maintain that distinction as much as possible.
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Well we agree and disagree, due perhaps to a differing point of view. The legitimacy of the prisoner makes little difference to me in the way I view the issue of institutionalized abuse. The troubled teen industry issue shares much with other issues especially private prisons; troubled teen programs are private prisons minus due process prior to entry, Looking at one may provide insights into the other.
However I understand your objections and respect your opinion. We both agree that it's an important issue but we disagree in regards to any relation with the troubled teen industry. I cede nothing but will think hard about your particular perspective.
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Rachael I can see the correlation. I take the point extremely valid of program survivors who say that they have been incarcerated without charge or in many cases crime. However the link between the issues is the idea that someone somewhere has decided that either prisoners or program kids have broken the social rules and so therefore it is acceptable to treat them in an inhumane fashion.
This is fundamentally morally wrong whether it be a suspected but not charged terrorist in guantanamo bay, an actual criminal who may legitimately belong behind bars, a POW in abu Gharib or a program kid. If someone has been convicted of a reasonably serious crime in a proper court their penalty should be loss of liberty not denial of access to basic living standards.
Western societies are making a grave mistake in adopting the idea that harsh treatment is acceptable when they feel that the ends justify the means and I think that parents who send their kids to this industry are simply applying this on a micro level.
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The private prison industry sounds a lot like the private 'troubled teen' industry. The warden at this GEO Group owned facility ruled “based on verbal and physical intimidation.” Sounds a lot like an adult version of many of the wonderful teen facilities profiled on Fornits.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19638219/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19638219/)
Good Article BTW...
These private prisons are popping up EVERYWHERE! And the individual states LOVE EM'!
Less money spent on the care of a prisoner in the state run facilities is music to everyones ears and wallets!
Plus the CO's have a shot to make a tad bit more money and get better benefit's.
Since they are not state funded and run, the quality of living standards is being compromised, to sat the least. In the state run prisons they have to keep everything in tip top shape or else the inmates will call "Amnesty International", "Jesse Jackson" or the illustrious "Reverand Al Sharpton" :) Along with the obligatory lawsuits.
These inmates in state prisons think it is bad now just wait and see how bad it will feel in these private run prisons.
No more cushy classrooms to get your GED in, no more money payed to your account for going to school everyday, no more hot breakfast, hot lunch and hot dinners. No more yummy juice with every meal, no more holiday meals consisting of turkey and the trimmings with pumpkin pie afterwards. Nada, zip, zilch, nothing. No more commissary, no more lifting weights, no more cosmotology, tv time, pictures on the walls, comfortability, Etc.
I feel a persons placement should be judged by the crimes. To send a 1st time shoplifting offender into a hard core prison camp may be a tad bit much. If I were to play "Devils Advocate" it may go something like this: Scaring the wits out of a person in that posistion may seriously guarentee a non repeat offender. It may help slow down the revolving door syndrome.
As with everything it has it's pro's and con's.
Maybe we need prisons like the one in "Midnight Express"...LOL....
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I think that we should work on several fronts.
1) Use community service, foot bracelet compared with amount of time in a real job. Issue non-violent offenders with a GPS foot bracelet and let them service in community service program during the day. If they have a job, they get those days off when they work.
It is a cheap solution. It keeps them with their family. It keeps them in job where they pay taxes. In Denmark we have increased the amount of people, who can aviod time in jail, so we now have about 80 people out of 100,000 in prison. (The number for your country is about 800 people.) We do not commit less crimes, we simply deal with people in another manner.
2) Use night jail for those, who can not find out so stay away from bars, but have a job. Here they are called open jails. People can leave in the morning after some chores and breakfast. (They have to make it themselves as well as laundry etc.) They have to be back before dinner. They have to have a job and a deal is made with their employer, so he knows when the prisoner can come and has to leave.
3) Increase prison standards for the rest. You have good jails in your country. I saw this jail for moms at the infamous Dr. Phil site:
http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/917 (http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/917)
And we have our new Supermax prison complete with family rooms and workshops so people can work in simple jobs inside, so they have some basic skills once they leave.
http://www.ostjylland.info/sitemap.php (http://www.ostjylland.info/sitemap.php)
4) Prevent children from dropping out of school due to crime. Create a dayprogram about their time in the local school with help from their parents. We are not talking Straight. Just basic exercise, mandatory time with the parents, community service and some group therapy (not exceeding our 2 hour limit defined by our authorities.)
http://www.retsreformnu.dk/Retsreform/rrn_usversion.htm (http://www.retsreformnu.dk/Retsreform/rrn_usversion.htm)
In order to save tax-payers for expenses, you have to invest in prevention and systems to keep people on the outside and in a job.
We have an old saying: Idleness is the root of all evil
We are just trying here in my country and we are far from done.
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Covergaard: You make some good points and I like your examples. BUT (there is ALWAYS a but) not every prison in the USA operates like the one featured on "Dr.Phil".
There are lots of women giving birth behind bars and have the kids ripped out of their arms the next morning. IF they do not have a family member ready, willing and able to be there to pick up the baby come release time the state will intervene and the baby becomes a ward of the state and the foster home games begin.
The very lucky ones have a person willing to take the innocent baby home until momma comes home to resume her role as a caretaker and mother. Hopefully.
I will speak of the prison in the state I live in.Connecticut. There is one prison for women. There is also a federal prison for women. So, that makes 2.
In the state prison you have women that are sentenced for life terms and those waiting for their sentences all mixed up together. There is no such thing as a county jail for women in Ct.
This prison will take care of the expectant momma medically. Come time to give birth she is brought to the hospital and has her baby while shackled by her ankle to the bed. No visitors, no balloons, no special after birth meals, no champagne toasts, nada.
You get a clean bill of health and 24 hours later your shackled up and sent back to the prison to "rest" in the "medical unit" for a few days.
IF you are lucky enough to of found a guardian for the baby then you will be allowed visits if you're eligable for them. Hopefully contact ones.
If the state became involved then your visits begin on their terms.
There is no breastfeeding BTW. No pumping the milk to give to baby. You need to dry up the reserve the way any woman not breastfeeding would.
It is a harsh, cold reality.
No one is overjoyed for the latest arrival into the world. No one is patting you on the back either.
You are considered irresponsible for getting pregnant while living a life where there is no room for an innocent child to grow and thrive.
God forbid you came in pregnant and hooked on drugs. You WILL be looked upon as low as the scum on the bottom of a fetid pond! The prison staff have no respect for you and will tell you so. It is a sad place to be in.
You are housed with women who have killed their own kids while you are nurturing one in your womb. You feel helpless and out of control. You want to protect the baby no matter the consequences around you. Given time in a protected environment you begin to think and make plans and have goals and dreams for you and your childs life.
As for ankle bracelets, they are passed out depending on you and your crime and your past record.
There is no such thing as a prison where you spend the night and leave the next day and turn yourself back in that night to repeat the process again. Not in this state anyways. One of the richest of the 50 and we still do not know how to deal with our inmate population and drug issues. Go figure.
The crowding makes it impossible to have parenting groups for expectant moms in prison, to have substance abuse counseling, anger management therapy, counselors that help you secure a roof over your head upon your release, etc.
There are women released in the middle of the winter with only a sweatsuit to their name and they are dropped off at the courthouse dowtown and then from their if they are "alone" in the world they start to panic for good cause. They need a place to go and are hungry at this point and they are looking around watching the snow swirl about them wondering what the fuck they are going to do now. The local shelter is full, they have no money so what to do? 9 times out of 10 they quickly resort back to old ways. A gals gotta live right? It is not about getting high either. It is about basic survival. How far can one get broke and wearing a sweatsuit in the dead of winter? It is a sad place to be. Very sad. This scenario plays itself out in different ways everyday a gal is released from the prison.
It sounds like Denmark is trying hard to help their inmates.
I'd need to research further to find out why Denmarks ways of dealing with criminals seems to be more successfull than Connecticuts way. It is not like Ct. can't afford it either. We have some very wealthy and powerful people residing here in their protected from the real world homes...Did I say homes? I meant to say "Uber Mansions".
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The reason for our choices lied in the fact, that we have made things expensive and bureaucratic for our selves. It is odd, but that is the case.
We do properly have the highest amount of public workers compared to our population. If we were to jail 10 times as many people, our country would collapse.
Another issue is the lack of hands. Due to efforts to preserve our culture, we turn our backs on people coming from other countries. My mother is from Finland and have lived and worked here since she was 20, but even today after over 40 years as tax-paying citizens her accent is the first to be attacked if a customer has a bad day in her shop.
So every hand is needed. We can’t afford to loose very many to a life in crime, so we run an intense behavior modification program once you are convicted but does also control the amount of weapon very carefully in our society. Even knives outside the kitchen has to be registered and city centers are totally off-limit so I had to ride my bicycle around the city back when I was young when I came home from fishing trips late evening.
Another thing is the 1984-aspect of Denmark. We can a DNA-register of every newborn since 1980. Because over 90 percent of all children attend nursery, kindergarten and clubs after school (School-spare time-arrangement – a part of the school which is a after-school recreation center for children grade zero-3), records of children and their family exist at the City Hall - Even mine.
That means that we are more likely to catch problems within a family than in other countries. Sometime it is also a problem if there is an employee, who is over-ambitious, but our press is rather free and they are quick to interfere in such cases. But we catch a lot of troubles in the family before they become too big to handle for the single family, so we can live with the records.
We do however have one problem and it is a recent phenomenon as result of the double income society and our wealthy society. It seems that youth are less together with their family as they used to. Some cannot even speak good Danish because their rich parents have hired nannies from east-Europe. Others have formed gangs (Not with guns, but with knives).
In Denmark no youth below 15 can be charged with a crime – not even murder. And we lack day-treatment programs. So often those youth are allowed to make petty crimes until they become 15 and can be placed in front of a court. So day-treatment is something we are working on right now. Almost every town has now a SSP co-operation (School, social security, Police) and we are setting day-treatment up in various forms. It is not fully working yet.
http://www.cphpost.dk/get/99796.html (http://www.cphpost.dk/get/99796.html)
A month ago Aarhus (The next-largest town in Denmark) had to shut all spare time activities down for youth in the entire town for a week because two brothers has become violent. 2 persons in a town of 300,000 people could manage that. They should of course have been put in day-treatment the first time they had hurt someone.
Back to the behavior modification in our prisons. Here is an example: 12 years ago a female doctor traveled to other part of the country, where she murdered the wife of her lover and her two children aged 3 and 8. The wife and the daughter died in the fire the doctor started. The boy died after naming that the doctor had been there. She was sentenced to life. 11 years after she was released and married to a child-molester in the jail and is now living her life working in an ordinary job (Her license to be a doctor was revoked for life.)
So a triple murder ends up serving 11 years. Another case was a driver without license killing a girl while he was under the influence of drug: Prison term 1,5 year.
Does they commit crimes when they come out? Since WWII we only had 4 people killing again, so something indicates that you can release even killers back into society again without risking people getting killed.
At Christmas 1/3 of the prison population is home with their family. No increase in crime can be measured and the police do not need to find people. They return voluntary.
But we still find that our present system is too expensive and perhaps more people can be sentenced to community service than before.
I have found material in English about the Nordic countries, so you have something to compare with.
http://www.kriminalforsorgen.dk/Publika ... lepubl.pdf (http://www.kriminalforsorgen.dk/Publika/statistisk_materiale/nordic_statistics/pdf/helepubl.pdf)
This is the main page about our prison system in Denmark (For English look at the upper right corner):
http://www.kriminalforsorgen.dk (http://www.kriminalforsorgen.dk)
About newborns in Jail: By separating mother and child during the first 6 months of the life of the child, you are hurting it. It is not the child, who has committed the crime. Of course the mother needs to remain locked up, but why not use the time to educate the mother in parenting? Some of the mothers do not have any clues about being a mother and if the child is not helped, a new prison inmate would be at risk to be developed in 15-20 years.
What about your society? Have some tried to calculated on the numbers to find out what could be saved if you only jailed 10 percent of the people you jail today. Have someone tried to estimate if there would be an increase in crime if all non-violent or low-risk offenders only was jailed during the night and had to either work, attend school or do community service during the day?
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What about your society? Have some tried to calculated on the numbers to find out what could be saved if you only jailed 10 percent of the people you jail today. Have someone tried to estimate if there would be an increase in crime if all non-violent or low-risk offenders only was jailed during the night and had to either work, attend school or do community service during the day?
The U.S. government doesn't care about such calculations. Apparently we have enough wealth as a nation, and enough taxpayers, that we can afford to write off the large numbers of Americans who end up in the prison system and are therefore more likely to get better educated in how to live a life of crime rather than a life of contributing to society. When they re-offend, we will deal with them even more harshly than before, and spend even more money to wearhouse them. The worst of them will be executed, saving the state vast amounts of taxpayer money.
The U.S. attitude seems to be that only a certain percentage of the citizen population actually matters -- actually has a meaningful contribution to make. For now, that might be a majority, but eventually may become a minority of the total population. The rest can go to hell, or go to prison, whichever comes first. We will eventually become like the society in the movie Gattaca, although with your DNA testing at birth, I think Denmark is ahead of us on developing that "perfect," genetically-engineered society.
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Federal concentration camps have been built. :scared:
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This company is definitely in the troubled teen business, it's the GEO Group(formerly known as Wackenhut) and they run private juvenile prisons all over the US. Many have been shut down for horrific allegations of abuse and lawsuits. I found some links while trolling for news on ISAC related to these bastards.
Texas' youth jail operators have troubled histories (http://http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/072907dnmettyccontracts.37bfd89.html)
GEO Group's facilities were closed in Louisiana, Michigan (http://http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/072907dnmettycgeo.3632a48.html)
Locked Inside A Nightmare (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/05/09/60II/main193636.shtml)
I also found more information regarding that women mentioned on page two of the msnbc article, LINK] (http://http://stoppcoalition.org/coverage.php?CoverageID=41)
AUSTIN - A civil rights lawsuit announced Wednesday blames the private corrections system for the 2004 suicide of a South Texas woman found hanging in her cell after reporting that a male inmate raped her.
LeTisha Tapia, who died at the Val Verde County Jail in July 2004, was housed in the same cell block as male inmates and reported that guards allowed male and female inmates to have sex with each other, according to the lawsuit filed by the Texas Civil Rights Project on behalf of the woman's family.
"It's unbelievably outrageous what happened here. Sexual relations between inmates is just beyond the pale," civil rights attorney Scott Medlock said Wednesday. "When prisons and jails are privatized, the company's bottom line is placed above inmate health and safety."
The lawsuit, filed in the federal district court for the Western District of Texas in San Antonio, names GEO Group Inc., the nation's second-largest private prison company, among the defendants.
"We obviously haven't had an opportunity to review the lawsuit. So, at this point, I wouldn't have any comment," said GEO Group spokesman Pablo Paez.
Also declining immediate comment were the U.S. Marshals Service and several Val Verde County officials named as defendants in the civil action. The Marshals Service contracts with Val Verde County for jail space and the county, in turn, hires GEO Group to run the jail, which houses 784 inmates.
Tapia, who spent nearly six months in the jail before her death, was awaiting transfer to a federal facility after pleading guilty to a marijuana possession charge, Medlock said, adding that she had about a year left on her sentence.
While in the county jail, male inmates were moved into maximum-security, solitary confinement cells that are connected to the women's cells by a common day room, the lawsuit said, but jailers allowed the inmates to have contact with each other.
"Female inmates discovered they could open the cells of the male inmates using a toothbrush," the lawsuit alleged. "Guards would open the door between the hallways and tell the inmates to 'do what you want to do, or what you gotta do.' Some female inmates began to have sexual relations with male inmates."
The close quarters for male and female inmates continued for more than a month, the lawsuit said.
Tapia reported the sexual contact to the prison warden in April 2004, but he did not move the male inmates to another section of the jail, the lawsuit said.
Tapia was raped after female inmates forced her into a male inmate's cell as punishment for being a "snitch," the lawsuit said, and her mental state deteriorated.
Tapia later reported feeling depressed and anxious and asked to see a psychiatrist in a medical request marked "URGENT," according to the complaint, but she did not see a doctor for another 10 days.
After Tapia smuggled a telephone from the infirmary into her jail cell, an individual described only as "Lt. Duggar" physically and psychologically abused her and sexually humiliated her in front of others, the lawsuit alleges in graphic detail.
The next day, Tapia was found dead in her jail cell, hanging by a sheet.