Post by: hurleygurley on July 04, 2007, 03:43:32 PM
Quote
Sat, 30 Jun 2007 07:28:56 -0500
Boy found dead at Draper group home (Provo Daily Herald)
by Home inspector's checklist @ Sat, 30 Jun 2007 07:28:56 -0500
SALT LAKE CITY -- A southern California boy died at a home in Draper, apparently in his sleep. The 14-year-old boy awoke early Thursday complaining of stomach and bowel problems, was placed in a separate room from other kids and found dead the next morning, said Carol Sisco, spokeswoman for Utah Department of Human Services.
Teenage Boy Dies In His Sleep At Utah Group Home (2News Salt Lake City)
A teenage boy died at a group home in Salt Lake City -- about a day after complaining of stomach and bowel problems, officials said.
Original post: Boy found dead at Draper group home (Provo Daily Herald) by Copyright (c) 2004 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. at Yahoo! News Search Results for home inspectors
Blog tag: Home inspector's checklist
Technorati tag: Home inspector's checklist
f anyone finds out the identity of the boy and his family, please let me know and let them know I may be a significant resource for them as the investigation is handled by Utah officials.
I will post more about this but the short story is this:
Aspen Ed. owns Youth Care. CRC Health merged with Aspen Ed. (backed by Bain (mormon) private equity) . So CRC owns Youth Care. By extremely odd coincidence I had had a 20 year acquaintance as a therapist consulting with a psychiatrist on various cases. I admired him very much ~ particularly his intellectual honesty and integrity. He closed his private practice a few years ago (in San Francisco) as a child and adolescent psychiatrist, like so many other doctors who couldn't afford private practice anymore. He said he was going to work for managed care and try to make change in medical standards "from the inside". Lo and behold, he turns out to be the Medical Director at CRC Health.
He is senior management now with a big salary and stock options. I couldn't have imagined that he was anything other than the person I knew but I also know that people can be influenced and pressured and end up on the wrong side. This appears to be what happened to Thomas Brady. I had called him this past October as the merger was being finalized and filled him in on all the gory details, particularly about Youth Care/PR because I started out in this murkey world trying to get my son's girlfriend out of there.
I gave him documents which proved medical negligence among a long list of other sh**. I told him that for each document I gave him I have more to support my claims. He dodged, sent me back all the documents I gave him face to face and implied that he would deal with this but on his own terms. I called him last week before I knew of the death and told him that I cannot see anything that makes me believe that he hasn't been corrupted and that he's dodging me. I have proof that the umbrella company had been specifically informed of gross abuse and negligence and they did not act on it.
I would encourage anyone involved in Aspen program issues to contact CRC Health in Cupertino, California. I would also contact Aspen Execs. I would say that calls and emails to executive management of both would be most useful.
Please contact by private post or at tbrady@crchealth.com (http://mailto:tbrady@crchealth.com) and the ceo of crc: www.crchealth.com (http://www.crchealth.com)
www.youthcare.com (http://www.youthcare.com)
www.aspeneducation.com (http://www.aspeneducation.com)
and not that I presume this will be of use:
http://www.hsdcfs.utah.gov/newsletter.htm (http://www.hsdcfs.utah.gov/newsletter.htm) (/Dept. of Human Services in Utah)
and of course there's good old Ken Stettler - I have some interesting email exchanges with him and one of the asst. attorney generals which are pretty damning.
Also, if you blog it would be great if you could blog the news article with any pertinent commentary with the same title as the article.
Post by: nimdA on July 04, 2007, 09:33:24 PM
Post by: hurleygurley on July 05, 2007, 12:50:24 AM
hg
Post by: Deborah on July 05, 2007, 06:05:09 PM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=268595#268595 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=268595#268595)
Post by: Anonymous on July 05, 2007, 07:59:39 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 12, 2007, 10:56:40 PM
:(
Post by: Anonymous on July 12, 2007, 11:14:59 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2007, 02:59:37 AM
It is an insult to these children. It is like denying a soldier a memorial plate if he served his country and died while at it.
Sick! Very sick!
Post by: nimdA on July 13, 2007, 04:00:54 AM
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2007, 05:02:34 AM
It is a tragedy every time.
But some politicans decide to go to war.
And some parents decide to send their own child away.
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2007, 05:41:40 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
No one want to die.
It is a tragedy every time.
But some politicans decide to go to war.
And some parents decide to send their own child away.
And I have to add:
- Everyone knows that a job as a soldier involve danger and that some does not come home again.
Also everyone should know by now that sending children off to a program involve that some does not come home again.
The only way a parent can be sure to be with his or her child at the end, is to insist to be there all time, if they are so committed to remove their child from society.
Post by: Rude Intrusion on July 29, 2007, 01:33:54 PM
The Associated Press
SALT LAKE CITY -- A southern California boy died at a group home in Draper, apparently in his sleep.
The 14-year-old boy awoke early Thursday complaining of stomach and bowel problems, was placed in a separate room from other kids and found dead the next morning, said Carol Sisco, spokeswoman for Utah Department of Human Services.
"We are interviewing everyone involved who was in the unit at the time," Draper police Sgt. Gerald Allred said.
Allred and other police officials were unavailable Friday to comment on whether an autopsy had revealed a cause of death for the boy, who entered the group home in February. His name was not released.
The boy died of a "medical condition," Trina Packard, executive director of the Youth Care & Pine Ridge Academy, said in a statement issued Friday. Packard didn't specify the medical condition or say why she was certain he died of it, and she didn't return a message left by The Associated Press.
"We are extremely saddened" by the boy's death, she said, pledging to cooperate with authorities. "We are providing therapeutic services to the boy's family, as well as counseling services for our own staff and students."
The state division that licenses the group home will inspect the facility after police are finished, Sisco said.
Among things inspectors will look at is whether the group home had adequate staff on duty, she said.
The group home is operated by Cerritos, Calif-based Aspen Education Group, a division of CRC Health Group that runs boarding schools, outdoor education programs, weight-loss camps and "weight-loss residential high schools," according to its Web site.
Corporate officials didn't return telephone and e-mail messages left Friday by the AP.
"It sounds like he woke in the night and was having diarrhea and vomiting," Sisco said. "They took him into a separate room, and within a few minutes he went asleep. They checked on him a couple of times, but he was dead by the morning."
The group home takes troubled children 11 to 17 years old sent voluntarily by their parents, Sisco said.
It does not take any court-assigned children, she said.
"The program notified us (of the death) within 24 hours as they are required to do. We'll be looking at reports from the program, law enforcement, the medical examiner and then going out and checking the program physically to see if there is anything they could have done differently," Sisco said.
On the Net:
www.aspeneducation.com (http://www.aspeneducation.com)
This story appeared in The Daily Herald on page D2.
Deseret Morning News, Saturday, June 30, 2007
'Medical condition' blamed for death
Associated Press
A Southern California boy who died at a group home in Draper had a "medical condition," the group home's director said Friday.
The 14-year-old boy awoke early Thursday complaining of stomach and bowel problems, was placed in a separate room from other children and was found dead the next morning, said Carol Sisco, spokeswoman for the Utah Department of Human Services.
"We are interviewing everyone involved who was in the unit at the time," Draper Police Sgt. Gerald Allred said.
Allred and other police officials were unavailable Friday to comment on whether an autopsy had revealed a cause of death for the boy, who entered the group home in February. His name was not released.
The boy died of a "medical condition," Trina Packard, executive director of the Youth Care & Pine Ridge Academy, said in a statement issued Friday. Packard didn't specify the medical condition or say why she was certain he died of it, and she didn't return a message left by The Associated Press.
The group home is operated by Cerritos, Calif.-based Aspen Education Group, a division of CRC Health Group that runs boarding schools, outdoor education programs, weight-loss camps and "weight-loss residential high schools," according to its Web site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2007 Deseret News Publishing Company
Deseret Morning News, Wednesday, July 18, 2007
Youth's death is still under review
DRAPER — The Salt Lake district attorney will be asked to decide what, if any, charges should be filed in connection with the death of a 14-year-old boy at a youth treatment facility in Draper.
The Southern California boy, whose name was not released, was found dead at the Youth Care of Utah on June 28. He had been
suffering from stomach and bowel problems and placed in a room separate from the others. In the morning, he was found dead on his mattress.
Draper Police Sgt. Gerry Allred said Monday an autopsy had been completed, but he did not want to comment on it until all factors were looked at.
"We're looking at it really hard to make sure we're not missing anything," he said.
Allred said the case was suspicious only because a teenager in the care of adults died.
"We want to make sure no negligence was involved," he said.
In a statement released by the Youth Care & Pine Ridge Academy shortly after the death, they declared the boy died of a "medical condition."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2007 Deseret News Publishing Company
Post by: Bunnie on July 29, 2007, 02:38:12 PM
Do they take children who have medical conditions?
If the child was fine when he was enrolled in Youth Care, then what happened and why was he not taken to a Doctor?
If a parent is looking for a program, I would think they would expect the program to see to his medical needs, wouldn't you?
Especailly since they have all the medical information filled out on the forms, so in "my opinion" they failed to ensure this child's health and safety needs were met.
This is just the same old bullshit of putting the blame on the parents or child.
:roll:
This industry needs to be shut down, until they can employ people who can tell wheather a child is sick or not.
They need to rewrite their handbooks, and stop pulling the faking and manipulation bull.
:exclaim:
edit: mispelled word.
Post by: Deborah on July 29, 2007, 10:30:54 PM
Quote
The boy died of a "medical condition," Trina Packard, executive director of the Youth Care & Pine Ridge Academy, said in a statement issued Friday. Packard didn't specify the medical condition or say why she was certain he died of it, and she didn't return a message left by The Associated Press.
Of course, she didn't "specify". She's not an MD. :roll: Wasn't she a bit quick to make such a definitive statement? "It appears he may have died from...." seems the more appropriate response from a program director.
And wasn't it interesting that the article was titled "Medical Condition Blamed for Death".
Post by: Rude Intrusion on July 30, 2007, 10:47:21 AM
Quote
And wasn't it interesting that the article was titled "Medical Condition Blamed for Death".
Neglect of medical condition would be more accurate. It is deeply disturbing how often kids seem to just lay down and die in these places. I hope "the rest of the story" will come to light, as there is surely a lot more to the story than what has been told so far.
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 12:15:01 PM
Quote from: "Rude Intrusion"
QuoteAnd wasn't it interesting that the article was titled "Medical Condition Blamed for Death".
Neglect of medical condition would be more accurate. It is deeply disturbing how often kids seem to just lay down and die in these places. I hope "the rest of the story" will come to light, as there is surely a lot more to the story than what has been told so far.
There IS more to this story, and it will come out that there was blatant medical neglect, and licensing violations. The mom is patiently waiting for the investigations to conclude. The boy's dad died last year. Mom has not come out with any statement in the press, as she is too overwhelmed with grief right now to bother with the media. This boy had some serious emotional problems, but was NOT sick when he was sent there by his mother. She had a right to have her son return home safely at the end of treatment. These are not "disposable kids" that end up in treatment centers. Most of them have parents who truly love them, and are committed to good parenting, and have literally come to the end of their ropes, have tried multiple therapy options, have been let down by their mental health communities and juvenile justice systems. In many cases, the safety of the parents and siblings overrides their desire to keep their child at home. No one should judge parents for sending their child away without having walked in their shoes. Instead, the public should DEMAND that NO MORE KIDS DIE in treatment centers, they are a necessary evil, but the kids' rights are being violated when they are not provided with emergency medical care.
A Freind
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 03:08:30 PM
I received the news of Candice's death from her son yesterday. He told me that his Mom was never the same after DeeDee died. But then, I knew this myself because Candice and I not only worked together, but shared our grief with one another.
Candice was the one who first started the list of children who died in Wilderness Therapy/Boot Camp Programs. We worked together on this list for years. Behavior Modification program deaths were later added to the list. Others have kept the list going and sadly enough this list has grown to an overwhelming number.
While it appears that Candice died of a heart attack. Those who knew and cared about her, know that the death of DeeDee left Candice with a broken heart. The deaths of these "children" leave behind a Mother, Father, Grandmother, Grandfather, Sister, Brother, Aunt, Uncle, Niece, Nephew, Cousins, Friends, Neighbors, Teachers, etc.
The most recent death is a boy who died while in the so-called care of Aspen Youth Care. It is my understanding that this boys death was preventable.
I would like to see the words "PREVENTABLE DEATH" next to the names of the "children" on the Troubled Teen Death List who died of preventable causes. I believe it would be MANY if not ALL the "children" on this list.
I hope the GAO will look into this and report on their findings.
Sincerely,
Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund, Inc.
Catherine Sutton
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 04:25:37 PM
Quote from: "concernedfriend"
Quote from: "Rude Intrusion"QuoteAnd wasn't it interesting that the article was titled "Medical Condition Blamed for Death".
Instead, the public should DEMAND that NO MORE KIDS DIE in treatment centers, they are a necessary evil, but the kids' rights are being violated when they are not provided with emergency medical care.
Face it: We can "DEMAND" all we want but it will continue to happen until parents either figure out how to parent or have adequate community support and crisis help so they don't give up on themselves as parents and feel compelled to place their kids out of the home. I hope the Dr. doing the autopsy is not in the employ of ASPEN or any of its businesses. I would not be surprised if they found out the stomach and bowel problems were due to a swift punch in the gut by a "counselor".
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 07:52:19 PM
Quote
I hope the GAO will look into this and report on their findings.
Has this case been brought to their attention? If not, who can?
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 10:07:35 PM
Blaming the parents is counterproductive in these situations, where a child needs to be placed for their own and others' safety. Not all counties will step up to the plate and provide needed services,. which was the case with this child, who needed specialized services, but was not eligible for Medi-cal, and insurnace would not cover it. This leaves the parents liable for hundreds of thousands dollars in services.
Quote
Face it: We can "DEMAND" all we want but it will continue to happen until parents either figure out how to parent or have adequate community support and crisis help so they don't give up on themselves as parents and feel compelled to place their kids out of the home. I hope the Dr. doing the autopsy is not in the employ of ASPEN or any of its businesses. I would not be surprised if they found out the stomach and bowel problems were due to a swift punch in the gut by a "counselor".
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 10:27:22 PM
:flame:
Post by: nimdA on July 31, 2007, 10:39:32 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 10:40:31 PM
Can't blame the parents for the death of their child if they weren't given the right to make the "judgement" call as to whether the child needed emergency medical care.
I would have believed Michelle was sick. I would have given her Seven-Up and crackers to help with her flu like symptoms. If Michelle's illness persisted, I would have taken her to the doctor.
How much was Aspen Youth Care receiving "per month" for the care of this young man? Michelle's program charged $14,000.00 for nine weeks.
What are we paying these people for??
I am growing very tired and weary from the repeated neglect of children in these programs.
I was wondering if anyone knows if the young man who died while in the care of Aspen Youth Care was on medication?
I remember a girl who died of heat exhaustion in a program. It was later learned that this young girl was on medication that prohibited her from being in the sunlight. This WAS NOT taken into consideration by the program. She was also allergic to peanut butter and was given peanut butter to eat.
I filled out Micelle's medical information personally. I don't think it was ever looked at.
Sad............. :(
Catherine
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 10:47:01 PM
Programmie: "We're just calling to let you know that one of our thugs hit him too hard and-"
Mommie Dearest: "Can you call me back later? I'm on a date." *click*
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 10:57:15 PM
Post by: nimdA on July 31, 2007, 11:21:58 PM
Post by: Anonymous on July 31, 2007, 11:23:05 PM
Post by: nimdA on July 31, 2007, 11:28:54 PM
Basically, I strongly suggest you stop being so paranoid.
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 01:01:29 AM
What is happening to these "children" is NOT ACCEPTABLE! It's NOT OK! What is happening to these "children" should be against the law.
I have been in shock since the death of my daughter. Shock over the fact that what happened to her was accepted by the state of Utah. I found there to be a wall between reality and abnormal behavior amongst the people involved in this industry.
I'm sorry to be on a soap box tonight. I just don't know how to break down the barrier of ignorance, greed and a dysfunctional thought pattern that governs this industry.
Catherine
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 01:25:14 AM
Quote from: ""campsafety`""
I just don't know how to break down the barrier of ignorance, greed and a dysfunctional thought pattern that governs this industry.
I'll offer a hint.
You're not fighting people, Cathy. You're not even fighting an idea as such. What you're fighting can be best defined as a gestalt- a social construct that runs between the threads of relationships. It shows up as a subtext, a set of assumptions.
This is impossible and offensive, but postulate- just for a moment- that your daughter's life was worth nothing, but the authorities have to try to pretend it was, and you're a pain in the ass for insisting that it was and not just making more. Given that postulate, does the behavior of Utahns make sense?
(Hey, don't look at me. I'm just an Anonymous. This is the ride you signed up for when you got into this business.)
Post by: Joyce Harris on August 01, 2007, 02:00:21 AM
Jared Eldridge, the County Attorney gave Cheryl Sudweeks a plea bargain in the Whitmore Academy criminal case. Cheryl Sudweeks was charged with 5 counts of child abuse and 2 counts of hazing against 4 Whitmore children. Eldridge allowed Sudweeks to cop-a-plea to "attempted hazing."
In a Deseret Morning News article, "Plea Deal for ex-school operator. She agrees not to run another re-habe facility in Juab"
Eldridge said: "These kids made some allegations of abuse and I completely believed them. That's why I filed the case. But that I believed them is one thing, whether a jury is going to believe them is a a different question."
That appears to be a "dysfunctonal thought pattern." If Eldridge believed the allegations enough to "file a case" why didn't he do his job, and bring the case to trial and allow 12 jurors to decide Sudweeks's INNOCENCE OR GUILT? Isn't that how the criminal justice system works?
I don't speak for the Whitmore victims; but surely these victims would have felt justice was better served, if a jury had heard their case, and made a decision; rather than Cheryl Sudweeks being given a tap on the wrist for "attempted hazing."
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 04:32:36 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""campsafety`""I just don't know how to break down the barrier of ignorance, greed and a dysfunctional thought pattern that governs this industry.
I'll offer a hint.
(Hey, don't look at me. I'm just an Anonymous. This is the ride you signed up for when you got into this business.)
Your clever little "scenario" is beyond offensive and completely inappropriate. It is obvious that the statement was rhetorical. Under the guise of "postulations," it is apparent you are trying to be hurtful. If you know Michelle's story you would know she didnt "sign up" for anything. Let's hope you never have to wake up to the same nightmare of knowing your child was tortured to her death. Pompous ass.
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 09:19:10 AM
And I told her to make the postulates, not as something to believe 'for real', but rather simply as a way of understanding how these people think.
All better now?
(I can go even further in depth with this, actually. Imagine a value system in which the value of the life of a person is determined by how many important people that person knows, and how well he is treated by those important people, where the base value- not knowing any important people, and not following a specified religion (Mormonism) either- is effectively zero.)
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 10:43:09 AM
My feelings are WAY beyond the hurt caused by the stupid people in this industry who gave no respect to my daughters God given life. I will continue to be positively angered by what is happening to other "children" as well in these programs until the awful TRUTH is brought to light.
I look for the day when this nightmare ends. I look for the day when these people have to face the ugly TRUTH of what they have done TO "children" for decades under the guise of "care and treatment" This day WILL come!
This is an open forum where everyone AND anyone can comment. Among parents and survivors, I believe there are probably Ed Cons, Lawyers, Referral Agents, Program Owners, Escort Service People, etc.
My comments are directed to those who have suffered as I have and give a darn about kids.
Catherine
Post by: Bunnie on August 01, 2007, 10:57:30 AM
If it were not for Catherine Sutton the children in Wilderness Programs would still be out in the desert with 1 pt waterbottles and hiking in the 112 degree heat. Because of her deep care, for other children to not let something happen to another child what happened to hers. There is so much more work for all of us to do as family members, surviors, and all the people who have common sense who want to stop the insanity.
Quote
It is not who is right it is what is right
Post by: Mummie on August 01, 2007, 01:45:16 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 02:02:42 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Would it have really helped?
Programmie: "We're just calling to let you know that one of our thugs hit him too hard and-"
Mommie Dearest: "Can you call me back later? I'm on a date." *click*
This pitiiful comment shows just how uninformed and unenlightened you are on the subject of behaviorial issues, and the stress on the entire family. And in this sad case of the boy who died in Draper, I know the family involved, and have 1st hand knowledge of the issues involved.
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 02:06:55 PM
Quote from: ""concernedfriend""
Quote from: ""Guest""Would it have really helped?
Programmie: "We're just calling to let you know that one of our thugs hit him too hard and-"
Mommie Dearest: "Can you call me back later? I'm on a date." *click*
This pitiiful comment shows just how uninformed and unenlightened you are on the subject of behaviorial issues, and the stress on the entire family. And in this sad case of the boy who died in Draper, I know the family involved, and have 1st hand knowledge of the issues involved.
I think it shows a pretty accurate depiction of what happens in these places. You ever been in one?
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 02:31:45 PM
"From what I understand, she was desperate to get rid of her daughter--
Now this got me to thinking--What was the rush? It was almost like the mother had a party to get to, or something?'
PURE speculation, gossip, opinions and non-facts, in some attempt to discredit this mother by Scheff? One asks to ask, WHY?
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 02:34:34 PM
Quote
concernedfriend wrote:
Guest wrote:
Would it have really helped?
Programmie: "We're just calling to let you know that one of our thugs hit him too hard and-"
Mommie Dearest: "Can you call me back later? I'm on a date." *click*
This pitiiful comment shows just how uninformed and unenlightened you are on the subject of behaviorial issues, and the stress on the entire family. And in this sad case of the boy who died in Draper, I know the family involved, and have 1st hand knowledge of the issues involved.
I think it shows a pretty accurate depiction of what happens in these places. You ever been in one?
Back to top
The person who typed this wasn't depicting the program, they were inferring that this is how parents act, in particular, the same parent that has been continually attacked, instead of staying on topic with this more serious discussion. The poster is oly demeaning themselves by continuing to do so.
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 04:16:23 PM
Quote
Concerned Friend, others, like Sue Scheff /PURE have written such disgraceful statements about parents. In her Whitmore blog, which praises the defunct Whitmore Academey, Scheff wrote about a Whitmore mother:
"From what I understand, she was desperate to get rid of her daughter--
Now this got me to thinking--What was the rush? It was almost like the mother had a party to get to, or something?'
PURE speculation, gossip, opinions and non-facts, in some attempt to discredit this mother by Scheff? One asks to ask, WHY?
Back to top
One also has to ask, (not "asks to ask"), why Guest keeps posting excerpts from that terrible blog? Do you have some interest in this case, or are you just being despicable for shits and giggles? I suggest you read her responses to previous attacks, because had you have, you wouldn't have posted that bit of ficticious horse crap.
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 04:19:10 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 08:46:14 PM
Post by: Deborah on August 01, 2007, 11:43:07 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Anyway.. Back to topic please.
Yes, please, and thanks. What do the evil twins have to do with the death at Youth Care? Do either refer to Aspen programs. Don't answer, rhetorical.
They deserve the thrashing their getting, but every freakin thread?
Post by: Anonymous on August 01, 2007, 11:49:56 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 12:07:22 AM
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 12:40:55 AM
http://www.childbrides.org/excuses.html (http://www.childbrides.org/excuses.html)
Found another quote from Carol Sisco...just to show the ignorance, you have the read the articule to understand.
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 02:02:00 AM
This thread is about a 14 year old boy who became ill while in the care of Aspen Youth Care, Utah.
Any information that can serve as helpful to the family of this young man would be great!
I have two file cabinets filled, plus dozens of binders telling the stories of many of the kids who have died.
To the readers who blame the parents for sending their children to these programs:
Michelle and her family were SOLD a "bill of goods." A VERY expensive "bill of goods" I might add.
Were we aware of the controversy that exists in this industry? NO!
Were we aware of the "window of loss" that exists in this industry that says of each child who dies, "We lost ONE, but we are saving many." NO!
Were we aware that our child would be treated like a criminal? NO!
I can't speak for other parents. But, what happened to My Michelle reminds me of what happened to Jesus. He too died in the hands of his own people. In my opinion, Michelle was like a lamb gone to slaughter. No one can convince me that I knew these stupid people were going to treat my child the way they did.
Now, with that being said, I will add that for those of you who don't know it already, "I am a Mormon by faith."
I have been up against the people of my own faith since the death of my daughter. Has this affected my faith in the religion of my choice? NO!
What were the last words Jesus spoke before dying on the Cross? "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." I wrote a poem after the death of My Michelle. I made reference to what happened to her and Jesus. The poem ends with, "How could THEY kill the King of Kings. The ONE of Royal Birth?"
Jesus suffered, and was put to death (even betrayed), at the hands of His own people.
I learned the difference between forgiving and excusing with the death of My Michelle. I know it is required of me to forgive. While I also believe it is not expected of me to excuse the ignorance and greed of the people who chose to treat my child this way. These people WILL stand before God someday. What will they say to Him? Will they say, "These kids were fakers, whiners and pot smokers." Will they say, "These kids were the least of these?"
I urge you to not look upon the people behind this industry as Mormons. I urge you to look upon them as ignorant people who are driven by greed!
These people have proven through their attitude and actions that they need to be told that what they are doing is wrong! They aren't getting it by themselves.
RECALL! RECALL!
Something is fatally wrong with an industry that has abused and killed so many of our young people.
Catherine
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 11:32:26 AM
Even with a nurturing parent who has tried everything, and refuses to tolerate maniupulation and abuse by their child, as is the case in the boy in Draper, there are legitimate situations where a parent needs to have their child in a confined treatment program for a temporary period of time, other than juvenile hall, in order to ensure their child's safety, and force them to participate in needed therapy. This boy's mom has been traumatized by this death, and is still trying to deal with the griefinvolved in the tragic recent deaths of her husband, mother, and now teenage son. She is an educated, caring, and persistent person, who will no doubt become a strong advocate for the rights of teens in treatmemt progrmams. Her son was on the autism spectrum, and she had left no stone unturned in trying to find appropriate services for her beautiful, sensitive, intelligent son, who had a right to proper medical treatment in this situation. If the authorities in Utah would do their job, this boy would have returned home in 6 months, returned to his wrestling team, chess, golf, activities with his family and friemds, finished high school, and gone on to college to fulfill his dreams of becoming an architect. Instead his mom got the sheriffs knocking on her door to tell her that her son was dead, without any knowledge he had even been sick, and had to go Utah to visit him. she certainly had the right to expect his safe return. YC is a licensed program, with a good track record, and had been cooperative in making corrective actions in the past to get to a high level of care.
The therapy program at Youth Care had acutally been extremely beneficial to this boy, and they had started planning for his return home. He had had a one week home pass with his mother the week before he died, and the changes he exhibited in his interpersonal relationships were profound. He was a willing participant in his treatment program, understood his disorder, and totally understood the necessity of his mom placing him there. He was never abused while in this program, mom visited regularly, and he had outside contact with family and friends where appropriate. He was very outspoken about the rights of kids with disabilities, having been subjected to cruel bullying in public schools, made many friends while in treatment, and actually convinced several other kids to stop their self harm behavior with his heartfelt emotion over the loss of his dad last year. He preferred the environment there over his public high school.
Anyone with actual useful information or documentaable proof about negligence about the innerworkings of the state of Utah in regards to reform in residential treatmemt programs and why criminal charges are rarely filed, lack of stiffer licensing and enforcement, etc should post this information so that the family can contact the appropriate high level officials and get effective action. These are not "disposable" kids, shame on those who bash the parents for being the problem instead of actively advocating for legislative change. Get a life and get moving and do something responsible....This boys death is tragic, but let's all turn it into something positive for all the other troubled kids out there who have needs for alternative placememts.
A Sad Friend
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 11:55:53 AM
Quote from: ""concernedfriend""
To you "Off topic" folks -Instead of bashing parents or staff of programs, and making assumptioms without facts, when you don't even know what happened, let's focus on realistic changes that can be made at the state and/or federal level to stop the madness of teens dying in treatment.
Even with a nurturing parent who has tried everything, and refuses to tolerate maniupulation and abuse by their child, as is the case in the boy in Draper, there are legitimate situations where a parent needs to have their child in a confined treatment program for a temporary period of time, other than juvenile hall, in order to ensure their child's safety, and force them to participate in needed therapy.
THIS is where you lose us. Listen and listen carefully.
Not to mention what happens when you give that kind of power over kids to people with ZERO qualifications.
Quote
This boy's mom has been traumatized by this death, and is still trying to deal with the griefinvolved in the tragic recent deaths of her husband, mother, and now teenage son. She is an educated, caring, and persistent person, who will no doubt become a strong advocate for the rights of teens in treatmemt progrmams. Her son was on the autism spectrum, and she had left no stone unturned in trying to find appropriate services for her beautiful, sensitive, intelligent son, who had a right to proper medical treatment in this situation.
Those are some of the LAST kids that should be subjected to this shit.
Quote
If the authorities in Utah would do their job, this boy would have returned home in 6 months, returned to his wrestling team, chess, golf, activities with his family and friemds, finished high school, and gone on to college to fulfill his dreams of becoming an architect. Instead his mom got the sheriffs knocking on her door to tell her that her son was dead, without any knowledge he had even been sick, and had to go Utah to visit him. she certainly had the right to expect his safe return. YC is a licensed program, with a good track record, and had been cooperative in making corrective actions in the past to get to a high level of care.
If they engage in "forced therapy" they're not "good".
Quote
The therapy program at Youth Care had acutally been extremely beneficial to this boy, and they had started planning for his return home. He had had a one week home pass with his mother the week before he died, and the changes he exhibited in his interpersonal relationships were profound. He was a willing participant in his treatment program, understood his disorder, and totally understood the necessity of his mom placing him there. He was never abused while in this program, mom visited regularly, and he had outside contact with family and friends where appropriate. He was very outspoken about the rights of kids with disabilities, having been subjected to cruel bullying in public schools, made many friends while in treatment, and actually convinced several other kids to stop their self harm behavior with his heartfelt emotion over the loss of his dad last year. He preferred the environment there over his public high school.
Anyone with actual useful information or documentaable proof about negligence about the innerworkings of the state of Utah in regards to reform in residential treatmemt programs and why criminal charges are rarely filed, lack of stiffer licensing and enforcement, etc should post this information so that the family can contact the appropriate high level officials and get effective action. These are not "disposable" kids, shame on those who bash the parents for being the problem instead of actively advocating for legislative change.
Shame on the parents who ship their kids off. Shame on the parents who farm out their responsibilities as parents to unqualified or underqualifed strangers.
Quote
Get a life and get moving and do something responsible....This boys death is tragic, but let's all turn it into something positive for all the other troubled kids out there who have needs for alternative placememts.
I've got one. It includes trying to stop the sham of forced treatment or therapy.
Quote
A Sad Friend
Boy, no shit!
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 12:14:22 PM
what planet are you from?
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 12:31:01 PM
No match for a good AI.
Programmie-Trans?
ONLINE.
Destroy.
AFFIRMATIVE.
Quote from: ""What concernedfriend's REALLY trying to say""
To you Anonymi- Instead of telling the truth about parents or staff of programs, and making statements based on facts, when you're pretty sure what happened, let's focus on fake bullshit to avoid changes at the state and/or federal level, because our profit margins mean that we have to continue the madness of teens dying in treatment.
With a shithead parent who has tossed her kid into a hellhole without a second thought, and refuses to tolerate their child having any semblance of a mind of his own, as is the case in the boy in Draper, this leads to situations where a parent needs to have their child in a shitpit for a period of time from months to years, other than juvenile hall (because juvenile hall has too many human rights), in order to ensure their child's abuse, and force them to participate in the torture we so laughably refer to as therapy. This boy's mom remained unfazed by this death, but is still trying to deal with her ability to live through others vicariously, after the recent deaths of her husband, mother, and now teenage son. Wow, it's like someone's just knocking them down like bowling pins, isn't it? She is a dumb cunt, who will no doubt become a strong advocate against the rights of teens in treatment programs. Her son was on the autism spectrum, which means that we can do anything we want to him because he'll never be able to speak for himself (Well especially not now that he's dead! Hahaha!), and she had left no stone unturned in trying to find abusive services for her dimwitted but innocent son, who had a right to proper medical treatment in this situation, and of course didn't get it at a shitpit like Draper. If the authorities in Utah would do their job, Draper wouldn't exist. Instead his mom got the sheriffs knocking on her door to tell her that her son was dead, without any knowledge he had even been sick (and we really want to blame the authorities for this!), and had to go Utah to visit him. Boo fucking hoo, she had to go all the way to Utah, when her son was being tortured there. She certainly had no right to expect his safe return. YC is a licensed program under the laughable licensing structure of Utah, with a piss-poor track record, and had been cooperative in making corrective actions in the past to get to an even worse level of care. Don't tell us we don't try!
The therapy program at Youth Care had acutally been extremely detrimental to this boy, and they had started planning for his return home as a suitably humiliated and beaten-down kid. Jesus I'm getting a hard-on just writing this. He wasn't going to see his mother again, and the changes he exhibited in his interpersonal relationships were profound. He learned how to pretend to be a willing participant in his treatment program, understood nothing whatsoever about any real disorder he may have had, and was forced to admit that he needed be there. God I love doing that to kids, hold on while I fap... FAPFAPFAP. Okay, I'm ready for more. He was repeatedly abused while in this program, mom never visited (like I said earlier, she would have had to go ALL THE WAY TO UTAH!) and he had no outside contact with family and friends whatsoever. He was very outspoken about the rights of kids with disabilities, until we beat THAT out of him, having been subjected to cruel bullying in Draper, and learned to participate in the brutalization of several other kids, especially after we taunted him about his dad. What he wouldn't have given to be back in real high school again.
Anyone with actual useful information or documentable proof about negligence about the inner workings of the state of Utah in regards to reform in residential treatmemt programs and why criminal charges are rarely filed, lack of stiffer licensing and enforcement, etc should post this information so that the family can contact the appropriate high level officials and get the fuck laughed at. Send it to the GAO because we sure as hell don't give a shit. We consider there "disposable" kids, shame on those who actually say that out loud instead of helping us paper over our abuses with authories. Get a life and get moving and do something responsible... like beating our bitch asses into the ground. This boy's death is tragic because the news might hurt our profits, but please don't turn it into something positive for all the other troubled kids out there who have needs to be taken out of shitpits, now.
A Sad Programmie PR drone
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 12:34:56 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 01:45:00 PM
Deborah can provide you will all kinds of information that can help you understand this industry beyond your own experience.
Catherine said she has files and binders full of research.
TAUSA, ISAC great ways to find information.
Other posters on here have their own experiences, Zen Agent, Joyce, TSW, PSY
I stongly urge you to do more research before settling into your position. Look at the industry as a whole and see beyond your own experience.
Post by: nimdA on August 02, 2007, 01:52:50 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 02:01:47 PM
Quote from: ""concernedfriend""
theoretical sitution: your child is autistic, punches you repeatedly in the face because you will not tolerate foul language and refusal to go to school, and tries to burn your house down, and assaults your other children, is arrested, local agencies refuse to provide treatment and judge says child must either get daily therapy and EM or go to juvenile hall, you are not going to insisit on treatment?
what planet are you from?
One that doesn't let situations get to the point where they're so out of control that I would need to call in someone else to help me deal with it.
BE A FUCKING PARENT!!!!! RAISE YOUR OWN GODDAMN KIDS!!
If you do that from the start, there's no need to cry for help later on. If the parents have NOT done that, why punish the kid?
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 02:02:45 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Concerned Friend- We all understand what you saying. No one is blaming a parent for what they did not know and what should not be legal in the US or anywhere for that matter. I think you are naive to this industy. Just ask Catherine if she feels this industry can be regulated. Ask her how long she has worked at this.. She has made headway to reduce abuse and deaths but its still rampid ...I think someone mentioned its like playing wack a mole. In this industry it is difficult to tell a "good" treatment center from a "bad" center. This is the issue. Programs use brainwashing techniques, forced "therapy" and physical exertion to implement thier "product." Your friend may have come home and seemed "fine". Typically change is temporary. It is obvious he was not fine. He was not in the hands of UNqualified people. Those people ignored his please for medical intervention and he was shoved into isolation and left alone for the evening. You will find many cases where medical attention was denied. The sad fact is usually the child's medical condition was brought about by the programming itself (Heat Exhaustion, Restraint, Dehydration.. etc ). The staff in these programs that watch over the children are NOT qualified enough to diagnose medical issues. They take it upon themselves to decide if the child is faking or "sick enough" to go to the hospital. It is a futile to defend your friends decision (this is not the place) and take this opportunity to learn about what is happening in this industry you will find atrocities beyond comprehension. This is why the entire troubled teen industry is severely flawed. Ask Catherine if she thinks Wilderness Therapy CAN be reformed. Do you think you can monitor these dangerous programs? Can you "drop in" on a wilderness therapy and insure abuse is not happening. Does the state have the resources to monitor the regulations that are in place? I highly suggest you look at ALL the deaths and abuse. Some of the people on this site that are now in their 40's +? that edured abuse in the same "type" of programs just with a shiny new face.
Deborah can provide you will all kinds of information that can help you understand this industry beyond your own experience.
Catherine said she has files and binders full of research.
TAUSA, ISAC great ways to find information.
Other posters on here have their own experiences, Zen Agent, Joyce, TSW, PSY
I stongly urge you to do more research before settling into your position. Look at the industry as a whole and see beyond your own experience.
Nicely put!
:nworthy:
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 02:16:13 PM
A bowel obstruction caused by constipation can quickly turn into a bowel infarction (loss of blood supply) if medical intervention (usually surgery) is not sought quickly.
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 03:09:08 PM
Quote
I think someone mentioned its like playing wack a mole
That was Psy.
And I have to say by all the abuse slinging words going on in this thread, that the abused have become the abusers, which is really sad.
Post by: Deborah on August 02, 2007, 03:12:31 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Was this child on medication that could have caused the behavior problems or seriously exacerbated them? What about meds that can cause constipation? Almost all drugs can do that. Was this parent and the program vigilent and/or aware of the need to monitor this child for potentially life-threatening side effects caused by prescribed meds on a daily basis?
A bowel obstruction caused by constipation can quickly turn into a bowel infarction (loss of blood supply) if medical intervention (usually surgery) is not sought quickly.
Excellent point!!
concernedfriend reads like an Ed Con to me.
CF, do you have permission from the mother to divulge the intimate details you are posting?
It's my understanding that the ME autopsy report isn't complete. Is that inaccurate?
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 03:14:05 PM
Quote
One that doesn't let situations get to the point where they're so out of control that I would need to call in someone else to help me deal with it.QFT
BE A FUCKING PARENT!!!!! RAISE YOUR OWN GODDAMN KIDS!!
Ignorance is abundant here. I suggest you read up on Autism, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Best to know what you are talking about before you open your mouth spouting words like above, and regret it later.
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 03:42:07 PM
If your kid needs help, you get your kid actual goddamn help from a real mental health expert who works in a real clinic or real hospital.
Not some hellhole out in Utah.
How hard is this to understand?
Post by: Bunnie on August 02, 2007, 04:54:36 PM
Many people do not know about the fact that the Industry is "Unregulated", or have minimal regulations. That is the whole problem they are not what they portray themselves, as we have all been talking about for so long.
My heart goes out to the suffering of all surviors and the familys of the children who have died needlessly. :cry:
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 08:11:46 PM
These places sell the whole bag of goods to parents, telling them they "Specialize" in this, that, and the other. I hate to say it, but it's almost like going to the market and having to decide on which brand of cheese, or whatever, you are going to purchase. They all pretty much say the same thing, and there are still parents out there that just don't know.
Today, one of my daughter's good friends informed me that her mom was trying to send her to some all girls boarding school in Florida. Believe me, I already asked for the name, and she can't remember, she will let me now tonight.
Meanwhile, I learned, I am getting more, and more, educated on this subject, and maybe I made a mistake, but it doesn't mean I can't help stop other parents from doing the same thing.
Post by: Karass on August 02, 2007, 09:53:13 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Meanwhile, I learned, I am getting more, and more, educated on this subject, and maybe I made a mistake, but it doesn't mean I can't help stop other parents from doing the same thing.
That's the strategy I have been following -- help stop other parents from doing the same thing. I'm not a politician, not an official member of any organization, and I have a day job and bills to pay. But I try to dedicate some free time to intercepting naive parents who think a program will help their kid.
Without parents to pay the bills, there would be no programs.
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 11:27:41 PM
Bashing parents who have difficult children who have not responded to traditional therapy does not accomplish anything. Yes, the mom of this boy is aware of my posts, I would not go behind her back. She has spoken with Cathy Sutton several times, and has spent hours researching the teen industry, and knows the particulars about every one. she spent many thousands of dollars on therapy for her boy and is an expert on autism. His medication did not cause his bowel infarction, he had a mechanical malfuntion that was a fluke ( like a ruptured appendix) it was not caused by a punch or constipation or medication, it was more in the arena of a genetic defect as I understand it., but it could have been corrected with surgery if had been taken to the ER when his symptoms became severe. The coronor was very thorough, the final report is pending some final reports, but there is no question as to the cause of death in this case. some of you need to find some facts before you spout off. And I was very well acquainted with this boy, and the progress he made at Youth Care, he really did get well qualified help there, much better than the boy was ever able to get in his home town, or at UCLA, where he was evaluated for a full month before going to YC. This was an extreme situation, not bad parenting. You parent bashers are really sick, and obviously have the same mentality as most of the officials in Utah, that the parents are totally responsible for their kids emotional problems and drug use. It just isn't so. The boy's mom lost her husband last year due to a heart attack - in your world, she to blame for that too? Some, not all, kids actually do have positive results in these programs. But only people with open minds will ever see that. Yes there is abuse, yes there too many deaths. instead of generalizing everything into one problem, the parents, try to take a more intellectual approach and find solutions.
I posted here hoping to get the mom on a fast track to get some accountability for her son's death, but I don't think I'll bother anymore after the negativity I've seen here. After the persistence the mom has shown with the many hurdles in her life, she may very well be able to accomplish something positive. Right now she is sad and angry, but wants something positive to come out of her son's very sad death. I certainly know she won't go around judging other people but will work for better regulation and enforecement, or closure of programs who let kids die.
A Friend.
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2007, 11:39:51 PM
There are many victims of this fraudulent industry.
Regulation won't prevent deaths. It may in fact, lead to more.
Post by: nimdA on August 03, 2007, 12:09:43 AM
pezdawg@hotmail.com (http://mailto:pezdawg@hotmail.com)
I tried following this thread, but it seems to have gotten far to tangled for me to even to begin to unravel.
As for doing solo intercepts on parents and steering them away from a program...
That is full of win.
Hardest thing I've had happen to me is the parent insisted I make a choice between programs for them as they absolutely needed a decision made right fricking now and blah blah.
I told them no as I wouldn't be the one making a choice between a lessor unjust confinement and harsher one.
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 12:12:37 AM
Apparently this parent:
Has talked to Cathy Sutton
IS READING FORNITS
Is being manipulated, hard, by the programmies, who are desperate enough to come here to try more
Now, AnonyMom of Murdered Kid, you have two choices here:
You can either support the people who killed your kid (and believe me, if you're reading the rest of Fornits, you know damn well what goes on in these places and won't be fazed by the bullshit, and understand easily how they can get away with it and claim "genetic defect") or you can help put them the hell out of business.
Up to you.
Of course the local anons are going to come after you. They hate program parents with a passion. Openly turn sides, start posting, and tell the truth and I imagine most of them will stop, although there's always assholes.
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 12:26:38 AM
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 12:32:57 AM
Your son died screaming.
Do you understand what a bowel infarction truly is? It is a piece of the intestine dying.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001151.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001151.htm)
He didn't die in his sleep. He didn't die quickly. This is not a heart attack. Blood sepsis (the ultimate cause of this sort of death) is not insta-lethal. He had severe systemic shock and fever.
Of course, kids scream in pain in programs all the time. The reason he died there, and not in a hospital, is because his cries of agony were completely ignored. He had severe abdominal pain. Think about it. A piece of his intestine died as the result of God knows what was done to him.
No, he was screaming, in mortal agony. He had to have been screaming, or possibly suffering agony in silence (doubtful- this HURTS LIKE HELL) because he knew very well that no one would listen to him.
No one took him to a hospital.
And now we've got idiots claiming "genetic defect". Priceless!
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 01:02:10 AM
Quote
His medication did not cause his bowel infarction, he had a mechanical malfuntion that was a fluke ( like a ruptured appendix) it was not caused by a punch or constipation or medication, it was more in the arena of a genetic defect as I understand it., but it could have been corrected with surgery if had been taken to the ER when his symptoms became severe. The coronor was very thorough, the final report is pending some final reports, but there is no question as to the cause of death in this case.
Guess we will have to wait and find out what symptoms this boy presented with and when. As for defending the program as having a good track record - that is clearly in the past tense.
My condolences to the family and friends of this teen. I hope the mother gets to the bottom of this although nothing can bring him back, it may help to save another child from losing their life in the name of "treatment".
Parents beware. This is not an isolated incident. You've heard it before. Believe it.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 03, 2007, 03:30:12 AM
This boys death will change nothing and you will see his death repeated over and over again and again every year. Just take some time and look into other deaths, I'll let the history speak for itself.
Post by: Antigen on August 03, 2007, 09:41:04 AM
Quote from: ""concernedfriend""
theoretical sitution: your child is autistic, punches you repeatedly in the face because you will not tolerate foul language and refusal to go to school, and tries to burn your house down, and assaults your other children, is arrested, local agencies refuse to provide treatment and judge says child must either get daily therapy and EM or go to juvenile hall, you are not going to insisit on treatment?
what planet are you from?
Having taken a turn through juvenile hall on the way out of 2 years of unmitigated Straight, Inc. hell as a kid, I would let any of my daughters go to juvenile hall rather than forced indoctrination. But that's just me.
Post by: Antigen on August 03, 2007, 11:24:45 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Dear AnonyMom of Murdered Kid:
Your son died screaming.
Do you understand what a bowel infarction truly is? It is a piece of the intestine dying.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001151.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001151.htm)
He didn't die in his sleep. He didn't die quickly. This is not a heart attack. Blood sepsis (the ultimate cause of this sort of death) is not insta-lethal. He had severe systemic shock and fever.
Of course, kids scream in pain in programs all the time. The reason he died there, and not in a hospital, is because his cries of agony were completely ignored. He had severe abdominal pain. Think about it. A piece of his intestine died as the result of God knows what was done to him.
No, he was screaming, in mortal agony. He had to have been screaming, or possibly suffering agony in silence (doubtful- this HURTS LIKE HELL) because he knew very well that no one would listen to him.
No one took him to a hospital.
And now we've got idiots claiming "genetic defect". Priceless!
This may seem harsh, but you're not out of line, guest. I'm sure the program faithful assured this grieving mother that her son died quietly in his sleep.
As we go back and forth like the Holy Roman Crown over reform vs protest, I'm reminded again of another chilling reality. I'm going to take the liberty of telling a little bit about my daughter. I can't reach her right now, but I'm real confident that she'd be alright with this. If not, my bad, I'll have to make it up to her somehow.
My daughter had a bowel infraction. It damned near killed her. I know what it's like. The girl was wild with panic and pain, projectile vomiting and drifting in and out of shock for 7 hours while licensed, trained, qualified medical professionals in the ER flatly refused her diagnostic services.
They did this on the grounds that they had to have a urine sample to rule out pregnancy before they could do a standard x ray. The charge nurse seemed to insinuate that they dismissed my daughter's symptoms as drug effects, maybe a minor overdose or serious withdrawal. She said things like "She's acting rather bizarrely". And she was, of course. She was in intense pain for hours and doped up on the Benzos the er staff had given her. I know what that's like. Many laboring women will try to pack up and go home when the pain gets to its crescendo. My kid was trying to crawl off the foot of the bed; trying to escape the pain, crying, begging and pleading for help.
So convinced were these men and women that they were looking at nothing more then some dumb assed teenager's self inflicted issues and her gullible mother buying her bullshit that, even 2 hours after the catheter they had put into her bladder failed to produce enough urine for a test, I (a layman w/ no medical training) had to point this out to the doctor. When he finally connected the dots, his eyes went wide and he called in the radiology team to to their damned job.
Here's my point, folks. The industry uses as a defense that it exists to fill a market demand. That is factually true, in my humble opinion. But they say that like it's a good thing.
I'm telling you that, going back at least as far as the Nixon Administration, these sadistic lunatics, self deluded and well intended as they may be, have so influenced our society's beliefs and attitudes about young people with their toxic hate and scorn, they have so exaggerated in our collective conscious the relatively low risks of unauthorized drug use that even well trained, licensed, regulated medical professionals damned near let my daughter die screaming, crying, dry heaving, hallucinating and begging for help and mercy because of it.
It is no coincidence that the people who have become multimillionaires on the backs of tortured children and duped parents invest in particular political candidates and political action committees like DFAF. I have long held to the idea that any candidate or organization affiliated with this mindless death and torture industry should be shamed out of public life.
Our society is sick in a lot of ways. Somehow we have to address this before anything will improve. Maybe through art, maybe by various kinds of rebellion, maybe through the electoral and legal process, maybe some other ways.
Go ahead with your talk of regulation and reformation. My bit is real, real simple. Rampant talking out in group. Be rude and uncivilized about it if the situation seems to call for it. Be artful and humorous if that's the spirit that moves you. But please understand that the troubled parent industry is not the core or source of the problem, it's just one of the more rancid, obscene symptoms of our societal ills. And love your children. Hell, give a little boost to any kid you see, even if they're acting immature or awkward at the moment you encounter them.
Right now, something like 60% of school aged children are deemed abnormal by education professionals. Wake the fuck up, folks! That is a ridiculous statement! There's nothing wrong with the kids. If they're angry and anti-social in these numbers, maybe they've got something to be angry about.
Post by: nimdA on August 03, 2007, 11:28:22 AM
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 11:45:32 AM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
Quote from: ""Guest""Dear AnonyMom of Murdered Kid:
Your son died screaming.
Do you understand what a bowel infarction truly is? It is a piece of the intestine dying.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001151.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001151.htm)
He didn't die in his sleep. He didn't die quickly. This is not a heart attack. Blood sepsis (the ultimate cause of this sort of death) is not insta-lethal. He had severe systemic shock and fever.
Of course, kids scream in pain in programs all the time. The reason he died there, and not in a hospital, is because his cries of agony were completely ignored. He had severe abdominal pain. Think about it. A piece of his intestine died as the result of God knows what was done to him.
No, he was screaming, in mortal agony. He had to have been screaming, or possibly suffering agony in silence (doubtful- this HURTS LIKE HELL) because he knew very well that no one would listen to him.
No one took him to a hospital.
And now we've got idiots claiming "genetic defect". Priceless!
This may seem harsh, but you're not out of line, guest. I'm sure the program faithful assured this grieving mother that her son died quietly in his sleep.
As we go back and forth like the Holy Roman Crown over reform vs protest, I'm reminded again of another chilling reality. I'm going to take the liberty of telling a little bit about my daughter. I can't reach her right now, but I'm real confident that she'd be alright with this. If not, my bad, I'll have to make it up to her somehow.
My daughter had a bowel infraction. It damned near killed her. I know what it's like. The girl was wild with panic and pain, projectile vomiting and drifting in and out of shock for 7 hours while licensed, trained, qualified medical professionals in the ER flatly refused her diagnostic services.
They did this on the grounds that they had to have a urine sample to rule out pregnancy before they could do a standard x ray. The charge nurse seemed to insinuate that they dismissed my daughter's symptoms as drug effects, maybe a minor overdose or serious withdrawal. She said things like "She's acting rather bizarrely". And she was, of course. She was in intense pain for hours and doped up on the Benzos the er staff had given her. I know what that's like. Many laboring women will try to pack up and go home when the pain gets to its crescendo. My kid was trying to crawl off the foot of the bed; trying to escape the pain, crying, begging and pleading for help.
So convinced were these men and women that they were looking at nothing more then some dumb assed teenager's self inflicted issues and her gullible mother buying her bullshit that, even 2 hours after the catheter they had put into her bladder failed to produce enough urine for a test, I (a layman w/ no medical training) had to point this out to the doctor. When he finally connected the dots, his eyes went wide and he called in the radiology team to to their damned job.
Here's my point, folks. The industry uses as a defense that it exists to fill a market demand. That is factually true, in my humble opinion. But they say that like it's a good thing.
I'm telling you that, going back at least as far as the Nixon Administration, these sadistic lunatics, self deluded and well intended as they may be, have so influenced our society's beliefs and attitudes about young people with their toxic hate and scorn, they have so exaggerated in our collective conscious the relatively low risks of unauthorized drug use that even well trained, licensed, regulated medical professionals damned near let my daughter die screaming, crying, dry heaving, hallucinating and begging for help and mercy because of it.
It is no coincidence that the people who have become multimillionaires on the backs of tortured children and duped parents invest in particular political candidates and political action committees like DFAF. I have long held to the idea that any candidate or organization affiliated with this mindless death and torture industry should be shamed out of public life.
Our society is sick in a lot of ways. Somehow we have to address this before anything will improve. Maybe through art, maybe by various kinds of rebellion, maybe through the electoral and legal process, maybe some other ways.
Go ahead with your talk of regulation and reformation. My bit is real, real simple. Rampant talking out in group. Be rude and uncivilized about it if the situation seems to call for it. Be artful and humorous if that's the spirit that moves you. But please understand that the troubled parent industry is not the core or source of the problem, it's just one of the more rancid, obscene symptoms of our societal ills. And love your children. Hell, give a little boost to any kid you see, even if they're acting immature or awkward at the moment you encounter them.
Right now, something like 60% of school aged children are deemed abnormal by education professionals. Wake the fuck up, folks! That is a ridiculous statement! There's nothing wrong with the kids. If they're angry and anti-social in these numbers, maybe they've got something to be angry about.
That needs to be posted in every single forum.
:nworthy: :nworthy: ::cheers:: ::cheers:: :smokin: ::bandit::
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 12:05:14 PM
Utah is great for their coverups, and iceing over the truth, they are very smooth.
On the other hand, the parents of the child has not spoken yet. I would assume they are taking in the facts. I am not going to make any judgements. This parent I think will be no dummy, so hold on folks till you see what she has to say, not what her concerned friend is saying.
Losing your child and being told that it was a medical condition, you have a lot of smoke to fan away, to find the truth.
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 12:09:45 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 02:05:22 PM
This "Concerned Friend" seems more concerned about keeping this mother away from Fornits or anything other forum; than helping her to determine why her son died.
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 02:09:12 PM
Remember the first cause of death for Martin Anderson? Sickle cell anemia? The silent but deadly genetic disorder?
This boy deserves justice. Get to the truth first, whatever it may be.
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2007, 02:28:49 PM
I don't believe bashing this parent or blaming her is going to help matters. What she needs to do now is get with the program, start asking more questions, and settle for nothing but the truth, no matter what that takes. And yes, she's going to get it along the way from everyone, just more of a reason to keep fighting this industry, who are the real culprits, praying on desperate people, in desperate situations, acting like their Gods that can fix anything.
I was reading online this morning, can't remember what site, but, it has to do with these books on children, one in particular, was Greg Bodenhaymer's books, and basically the website was saying "this book, in about 30 minutes, will give you a better behaved kid". If raising kids were that easy we'd have no need for programs." Well damn, didn't realize a book could do all that for me, but if it says it will, then shit I am running out tomorrow and getting the book. It's the same thing with these programs. Everyone is feeding into those lines of bullshit, making everyone a victim.
Reform isn't going to do it, because they will still be operating the same programs under said reforms, with the same people opening new schools under the new reforms, probably with the same staff too. As long as no-one is looking, they can do whatever the hell they want to do, regardless of any reform.
There are laws to protect individuals, as well as children, from any type of abuse, yet these programs are getting away with it left and right. So the laws aren't stopping anything, and neither will reform. My case in point regarding reform, just my opinion.
Post by: Antigen on August 03, 2007, 02:53:12 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Who exactly is this "CONCERNED FRIEND" and why is she speaking for this mother?
This "Concerned Friend" seems more concerned about keeping this mother away from Fornits or anything other forum; than helping her to determine why her son died.
My best guess would be that this person is using the term 'friend' rather loosley. Probably a parent support group member or some such.
Post by: nimdA on August 03, 2007, 02:57:02 PM
Quote
There are laws to protect individuals, as well as children, from any type of abuse, yet these programs are getting away with it left and right. So the laws aren't stopping anything, and neither will reform. My case in point regarding reform, just my opinion
Agreed.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 04, 2007, 01:39:57 AM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
Quote from: ""Guest""Dear AnonyMom of Murdered Kid:
Your son died screaming.
Do you understand what a bowel infarction truly is? It is a piece of the intestine dying.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001151.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001151.htm)
He didn't die in his sleep. He didn't die quickly. This is not a heart attack. Blood sepsis (the ultimate cause of this sort of death) is not insta-lethal. He had severe systemic shock and fever.
Of course, kids scream in pain in programs all the time. The reason he died there, and not in a hospital, is because his cries of agony were completely ignored. He had severe abdominal pain. Think about it. A piece of his intestine died as the result of God knows what was done to him.
No, he was screaming, in mortal agony. He had to have been screaming, or possibly suffering agony in silence (doubtful- this HURTS LIKE HELL) because he knew very well that no one would listen to him.
No one took him to a hospital.
And now we've got idiots claiming "genetic defect". Priceless!
This may seem harsh, but you're not out of line, guest. I'm sure the program faithful assured this grieving mother that her son died quietly in his sleep.
As we go back and forth like the Holy Roman Crown over reform vs protest, I'm reminded again of another chilling reality. I'm going to take the liberty of telling a little bit about my daughter. I can't reach her right now, but I'm real confident that she'd be alright with this. If not, my bad, I'll have to make it up to her somehow.
My daughter had a bowel infraction. It damned near killed her. I know what it's like. The girl was wild with panic and pain, projectile vomiting and drifting in and out of shock for 7 hours while licensed, trained, qualified medical professionals in the ER flatly refused her diagnostic services.
They did this on the grounds that they had to have a urine sample to rule out pregnancy before they could do a standard x ray. The charge nurse seemed to insinuate that they dismissed my daughter's symptoms as drug effects, maybe a minor overdose or serious withdrawal. She said things like "She's acting rather bizarrely". And she was, of course. She was in intense pain for hours and doped up on the Benzos the er staff had given her. I know what that's like. Many laboring women will try to pack up and go home when the pain gets to its crescendo. My kid was trying to crawl off the foot of the bed; trying to escape the pain, crying, begging and pleading for help.
So convinced were these men and women that they were looking at nothing more then some dumb assed teenager's self inflicted issues and her gullible mother buying her bullshit that, even 2 hours after the catheter they had put into her bladder failed to produce enough urine for a test, I (a layman w/ no medical training) had to point this out to the doctor. When he finally connected the dots, his eyes went wide and he called in the radiology team to to their damned job.
Here's my point, folks. The industry uses as a defense that it exists to fill a market demand. That is factually true, in my humble opinion. But they say that like it's a good thing.
I'm telling you that, going back at least as far as the Nixon Administration, these sadistic lunatics, self deluded and well intended as they may be, have so influenced our society's beliefs and attitudes about young people with their toxic hate and scorn, they have so exaggerated in our collective conscious the relatively low risks of unauthorized drug use that even well trained, licensed, regulated medical professionals damned near let my daughter die screaming, crying, dry heaving, hallucinating and begging for help and mercy because of it.
It is no coincidence that the people who have become multimillionaires on the backs of tortured children and duped parents invest in particular political candidates and political action committees like DFAF. I have long held to the idea that any candidate or organization affiliated with this mindless death and torture industry should be shamed out of public life.
Our society is sick in a lot of ways. Somehow we have to address this before anything will improve. Maybe through art, maybe by various kinds of rebellion, maybe through the electoral and legal process, maybe some other ways.
Go ahead with your talk of regulation and reformation. My bit is real, real simple. Rampant talking out in group. Be rude and uncivilized about it if the situation seems to call for it. Be artful and humorous if that's the spirit that moves you. But please understand that the troubled parent industry is not the core or source of the problem, it's just one of the more rancid, obscene symptoms of our societal ills. And love your children. Hell, give a little boost to any kid you see, even if they're acting immature or awkward at the moment you encounter them.
Right now, something like 60% of school aged children are deemed abnormal by education professionals. Wake the fuck up, folks! That is a ridiculous statement! There's nothing wrong with the kids. If they're angry and anti-social in these numbers, maybe they've got something to be angry about.
Amen, :nworthy:
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2007, 09:49:07 AM
Quote
This may seem harsh, but you're not out of line, guest. I'm sure the program faithful assured this grieving mother that her son died quietly in his sleep.
Yah, kind of blows that whole "I put my kid into the program to save his life" shit.
I actually woke from a nightmare this morning, thinking I was in a seminar, I woke screaming "don't make me chant that program shit."
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2007, 02:45:46 AM
The night staff is only two staff to a house, and a lot of the time the night staff or "graves" as we called them would have to go to other places to get stuff. This ment that there was only one staff at a house at night a lot and with only one staff, they have to stay in the room with the kids on percautions and therefore would have a difficult time checking on a sick kid...there even understaffed durring the day, there supposed to have one staff for every four kids and usually there are about 14 kids to a house so four staff should be there, but there rarely is enough staff...plus a lot of the staff are new so they don't know what the hell is going on and what kid needs to do what at what time....oh and doctors appointments out of the facility were made, but 50% of the time cancelled due to shortage of staff...
ok, I just had to say all that, sorry for all the errors but I have to go to work early tommorow so I am doing this as fast as I can.....
ok...now for the flip side....I can honestly say without a doubt in my heart I would be dead at this time if I did not attend youth care/pine ridge. Every day I thank God for that program and all the wonderful therapists. you could deffenatly tell that there were certin staff that actually cared....the staff that were there for a long time weren't there because of the money (i heard the intro. wadges are about the same as McDonald's) but because they loved the kids and they loved the process of change and they really were good people. Often when something bad happenend prodocaul was being followed correctly. It was just that protocal was way messed up....the people who were taking care of that poor kid when he was sick probably did ask about the er, especially if the kid requested it, but the suppervisor said no, or we will have to wait until morning when we can get extra staff...I had to go to the er a couple of times because of my migraines and if I had to go in the middle of the night (they usually had me wait til morning, and that deffenatly didn't help cuz they hurt so damn bad) they would have to call in the program manager to take me. what YCI/PRA needs to do is raise the staff waidges (I KNOW they have the money!!!!) and things like this wouldn't happen. They need to rewrite protocall of corse and find a better way of determining when a child really needs help...but really the therapy that I recieved there was worth all the crap...well if you have any questions just post them and I will try to resond to them....btw I was NOT there when this insident happenend, i graduated last december, happily with my high school deploma and a bright future ahead....thank you and good night
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2007, 12:32:46 PM
You volunteered for this (!!), watched kids get denied medical care to unbelievable extremes, and you're still parroting the line of "they saved my life"?
Jesus fucking Christ, your parents ought to be dragged out into the street and shot, and you need an appointment with... oh fuck, nobody. There's no one in this whole reality capable of solving your problems.
Post by: Bunnie on August 07, 2007, 01:58:26 AM
BTW: you should take legal action against them for your pain and negligence.
This Industry, is run by morons.
:flame:
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 01:25:26 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Dear AnonyMom of Murdered Kid:
Your son died screaming.
Do you understand what a bowel infarction truly is? It is a piece of the intestine dying.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001151.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001151.htm)
He didn't die in his sleep. He didn't die quickly. This is not a heart attack. Blood sepsis (the ultimate cause of this sort of death) is not insta-lethal. He had severe systemic shock and fever.
Of course, kids scream in pain in programs all the time. The reason he died there, and not in a hospital, is because his cries of agony were completely ignored. He had severe abdominal pain. Think about it. A piece of his intestine died as the result of God knows what was done to him.
No, he was screaming, in mortal agony. He had to have been screaming, or possibly suffering agony in silence (doubtful- this HURTS LIKE HELL) because he knew very well that no one would listen to him.
No one took him to a hospital.
And now we've got idiots claiming "genetic defect". Priceless!
THANKS SO MUCH for sharing your words of comfort. I am the mom of the boy who died. I am not stupid, I know exactly what a bowel infarction is. I have been to Utah and talked to the coronor about the autopsy, and met with the detective in charge of the case. My son died several hours after his intestine twisted. There is no evidence that it was caused by an injury, there were no bruises, and I examined my son's body myself, I did not just take someone's word for it. His intestine twisted from a mechanical malfunction and he hemoraged to death. Yes, it was probably incredibly painful, and he probably screamed to go the ER, but thanks for the nice visual, it really adds to my grieving process. Yes I believe YC was negligent in not having night staff responsible enough to call 911. I am tortured by what his final hours were like, but I am not responsible for the sudden onset of his medical condition, nor is anyone else. Yes, he SHOULD have been in the ER having surgery, not just segregated and checked periodically. I am absolutely horrified that he was not taken to the ER, as was the policy. He might very well have died anyway, but at least he would have had a chance for a surgical repair. YC has a licensed, and board certified/qualified medical doctor and nurse on staff who should have been called, and would have insisted on calling 911 had they been notified, I know them personally and know this for certain. No I do not believe that they wanted him to die because he was a problematic kid. The police have done a thorough investigation, and based on the information I have, it appears that the caretakers on duty the night my son died thought he was faking, obviously they made a bad choice and should be prosecuted. I'm not holding my breath, given the previous deaths, but it's out of my control. Bashing me and my supposed lack of parenting skills is not going to change the situation. Most of the people on this site, as far as I can tell, spend way too much time complaining, and very little time doing any real advocacy for change. I had a friend scanning this site and others, trying to get some verifiable and constructive information about previous abuses or medical neglect at Youth Care, but no one has come forward. Wishing that all of the programs will be closed down is unrealistic. As long as there are teens who do not respond to traditional therapies, teens with mental health issues, local communities refuse to provide services, and yes, some bad parenting thrown in, this industy will unfortunately continue to exist. Thanks to the constructive actions of folks like Catharine Sutton and others, the really bad programs do get closed down eventually, and reforms, although minor, are happening in some states. Unfortunately, it takes a child's death to prompt any changes. I will use my son's death and do what I can to see that YC is held accountable for this death, and prompt legistation that will force kid's access to medical care, but it's going to take a lot more than inflammatory insults on this site, it's going to take a lot of people working really hard to be heard in the legislature, and force federal and/or state (which I agree is probably a joke) oversight. Utah is a tough environment in that regard, the Utah department of licensing really should get sued for negligence. How many of you have looked into a class action suit against them? I am doing that. I am really disgusted with the comments on this site about my son's death and my actions in placing him in a residential program, you people are worse than the media. Yes, I researched the teen programs before I sent my son to Utah, I am not stupid. Yes, I checked watch lists, I checked for WWASP affiliations. Yes, I checked the credentials of every therapist and clinician on staff. Yes, I agonized over sending him away to school. Yes, he was coming home after 6 months or so, I did not abandon him. No, he was not going to be "cured". I went into it with my eyes pretty wide open. I drove to Utah from California and visited him there, and participated in individual and group therapy, which did exist BTW. Youth Care has a bona fide therapy program. I interviewed a student who had come home. I met every person on the day staff, and called frequently for updates. I had almost daily contact with his therapist, had several phone calls weekly with my son, pass time alone with my son in my motel room on weekends, and a weeklong visit home. And even with my best efforts, still my son tragically ended up dead. As much as you want to blame me and tell me how stupid I was, it's not my fault. After many years of traditional therapies failed, and local resources were not adequate to keep my son at home, I was fearful for my life and that of my other child; and after felony assault charges and Juvenile Hall did not matter to my son, I was unfortunately forced to remove him from my home. No relatives would take him, no local agencies would provide help, as they were convinced by his false "child abuse" charges that he was abused. In reality, my daughter and I were abused, and I was crazy to keep him at home for as long as I did. It was a no brainer - he was going to kill himself or kill one of us. I still loved him anyway, and wanted him to live with me, but I would not jeapordize my daughter's life any further. While I miss my beautiful spirited boy every day, and will for the rest of my life, I am not going to be bullied by some idiot into thinking I murdered my son by sending him away. I had a right to personal safety in my own home. Until you have had your child come after you with a pitchfork and repeatedly punch you in the face, you have no idea what you are talking about with your parenting skills bullshit. And for those of you who think Juvenile Hall is a better option, you need to spend some time there. I have. It's no picnic. My son would undoubtedly have died there. Utah was unfortunately a better risk. I suspect some of the posters on this site are posers, have no real interest in the topic, and just like to see their own BS in print.
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 05:39:13 AM
Do you mind telling us whether your son was on meds, and if so, for what purpose?
It appears to me that many residential kids are on medication that can have serious side-effects though that doesn't sound to be the case here.
What about his behavior at home? Is it possible his behavior was adversely effected by any meds he was prescribed?
Several Fornits members are very well educated in meds, both pro and con.
I do think this is an area that needs more research (the prescribing of powerful psychotropic drugs for children and adolescents) especially in light of several high-profile cases involving young people who became violent and homicidal.
Once again, my sincere condolescences. Your child deserved prompt and efficient medical attention.
There simply is no excuse and personally, I'd be talking wrongful death lawsuit against the program no matter how qualified you believed them to be. Obviously they didn't live up to their own standard operating procedures.
Don't think a class action is possible but good luck trying.
:(
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 08:18:56 AM
Quote
Dear AnonyMom of Murdered Kid:
Your son died screaming.
Do you understand what a bowel infarction truly is? It is a piece of the intestine dying.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001151.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001151.htm)
He didn't die in his sleep. He didn't die quickly. This is not a heart attack. Blood sepsis (the ultimate cause of this sort of death) is not insta-lethal. He had severe systemic shock and fever.
Of course, kids scream in pain in programs all the time. The reason he died there, and not in a hospital, is because his cries of agony were completely ignored. He had severe abdominal pain. Think about it. A piece of his intestine died as the result of God knows what was done to him.
No, he was screaming, in mortal agony. He had to have been screaming, or possibly suffering agony in silence (doubtful- this HURTS LIKE HELL) because he knew very well that no one would listen to him.
No one took him to a hospital.
And now we've got idiots claiming "genetic defect". Priceless!
Quote
One that doesn't let situations get to the point where they're so out of control that I would need to call in someone else to help me deal with it.
BE A FUCKING PARENT!!!!! RAISE YOUR OWN GODDAMN KIDS!!
Absolutely amazing (I just read this tread), if this was reversed and someone was insensitive and treating a survivors story this way you guys would be trying to get them banned. But since this is a parent not one person steps up to their defense , you are only interested in your own agenda, truly classic, all of you.
This parent did everything she could to protect her family and children. This whole thing is a tragedy and should never happen to anyone.
I am so,so sorry for your loss.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 23, 2007, 08:23:55 AM
Post by: Oz girl on August 23, 2007, 08:36:38 AM
Post by: Covergaard on August 23, 2007, 09:16:44 AM
It is the isolation issue and lack of contact with the outside world, which concern us.
A member of my wife's family has just placed her daughter at a home. It was also something with violence when the day was not structured or there was stress involved. It is the local social service at the city hall, which helped her find the place. The child is not allowed home during the first three weekends because they want the children at the school to bond.
But ....
- The child has her cell-phone with her. Apart from time in the classes, she can use it to call friends or family as much as she like. There is no restriction. They also have internet access for some hours every day.
While the child has to stay at the school, there is no restriction on visititation from siblings and parents.
The education is the normal curriculum but done in smaller classes with at least two teachers (about 8-12 students instead of 28).
The local city halls pays and can come unnanounced for check-ups. The school are somewhat pricy and if they feel that they can do better themselves at some point, the child would have to go home to the local treatment.
The the school year is over, the child goes home for holiday. Christmas and other holidays is the same. The children are not on the school. In weekends they have to decide whether to go home or not on friday, so there is food enough.
If a child breaks a important rule, they are sent home for a week to think about whether they want to continue attending the school or not.
You can be sure that the child is driven directy to the ER, when the student complains about their health.
It is the isolation and common belief that every complaint is to be considered manipulation that kills the most of the children.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 23, 2007, 09:45:10 AM
Also many programs have Professional staff that are hardly ever at the program. I would look into that as well to see if what you were promised matched reality.
Anyway, that's all that comes to mind now(I been up all night, brains tired) but sorry for your loss. Try to understand that most of the posters here have endured a reality more painful then many could ever imagine. Some are hostile towards parents, others very blunt when it comes to the realities of this industry. Don't take it personally..
Also if you want real help from forum members, to tap into their knowledge of the industry, pm someone who seems helpful with questions, like psy, Deborah, or ZenAgent. I think that would get you more of what you're looking for then observing a thread.
Goodluck....
P.S, I know parents don't want to hear this, but these programs are not the answer to helping difficult kids. You can't force therapy and expect not to have bad consequences result from it. The tragedies that you here about(Deaths) and the ones that you don't(PTSD, Suicide, Abuse) will continue as long as we look to these programs as an option.
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 11:15:38 AM
Post by: Deborah on August 23, 2007, 11:49:57 AM
Trina Packard, Executive Director of Youth Care residential treatment center in Draper, Utah, today announced that Denice Dunker has been appointed Admissions Director.
Denice comes to Youth Care with over 25 years of sales and management experience, and a demonstrated ability to effectively increase productivity. She has worked in admissions since 2001, for the Minnesota School of Business and, most recently, for Utah Career College where she received top honors for achieving the highest number of enrollments in April 2005.
"We are thrilled to have Denice on our team," said Packard. "She brings years of sales, management and school admissions experience to this position, and we look forward to her contributions to enhance Youth Care's service to parents and referring professionals."
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 12:05:48 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
QuoteDear AnonyMom of Murdered Kid:
Your son died screaming.
Do you understand what a bowel infarction truly is? It is a piece of the intestine dying.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001151.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001151.htm)
He didn't die in his sleep. He didn't die quickly. This is not a heart attack. Blood sepsis (the ultimate cause of this sort of death) is not insta-lethal. He had severe systemic shock and fever.
Of course, kids scream in pain in programs all the time. The reason he died there, and not in a hospital, is because his cries of agony were completely ignored. He had severe abdominal pain. Think about it. A piece of his intestine died as the result of God knows what was done to him.
No, he was screaming, in mortal agony. He had to have been screaming, or possibly suffering agony in silence (doubtful- this HURTS LIKE HELL) because he knew very well that no one would listen to him.
No one took him to a hospital.
And now we've got idiots claiming "genetic defect". Priceless!QuoteOne that doesn't let situations get to the point where they're so out of control that I would need to call in someone else to help me deal with it.
BE A FUCKING PARENT!!!!! RAISE YOUR OWN GODDAMN KIDS!!
Absolutely amazing (I just read this tread), if this was reversed and someone was insensitive and treating a survivors story this way you guys would be trying to get them banned. But since this is a parent not one person steps up to their defense , you are only interested in your own agenda, truly classic, all of you.
This parent did everything she could to protect her family and children. This whole thing is a tragedy and should never happen to anyone.
I am so,so sorry for your loss.
Please remember that this post is one post by one person and does not represent everyone on fornits. Your here.. does it represent you? This was most likely written by a person who is a survivor of the programs and he/she is very upset that the programs may be getting one over on her. If the child had a medical issue, that was not induced by staff... it was ignored by staff. He should have been taken to the doctor immediately. The pain must have been unbearable.
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 03:20:29 PM
I too was put on trial after the death of My Michelle. I have often stated, "If I had DONE TO Michelle what was DONE TO her, I would have been placed in a cell. I'm tired of being on trial for the death of my daughter. Since her death I have crusaded for a "law" to say "What happened to your 'child' is NOW against the law!!!!!
There never should have been a controversy over "what is right" when it comes to HOW children are being treated in this industry. In my opinion, there is a fine line between therapy and abuse. The "TEEN HURT" industry has crossed this line too many times.
I feel the above poster who attacked the parent of the most recent victim to this industry has some deep, hurtful, wounds.
I believe that when a 'person/child' is already hurting inside, and placed in a abusive program (knowingly or unknowingly by the parent/parents), he/she will come out of the program with deeper hurt than before. Pain upon pain is never gain. This only compacts the already existing problems. I understand this. Why doesn't this stupid industry understand this? I guess the reason I understand this so well is because I come from an abusive childhood. A sadistic Step-Parent who got his kicks out of playing mind games with my Mother's children. Using us as tools against one another was one of his favorite kicks. Sick person who needed help!
If you want to see how this industry continues to get away with what they are doing to children. Attend one of the trials. I saw first hand how Steve Cartisano, AKA, Scott Richard's, Steve Michael's and his attorney's were able to work the system and get him off. I also attended the Aaron Bacon trial and watched as the Judge allowed the controversy into the courtroom. The Judge went so far as to point out that one stack of letters on his desk was thicker than the other stack. I believe the stack that was in favor of the programs did have a swaying factor in his decision.
If you want to do something that can truly help in this fight for truth, and what is right, send a letter to your Congressman AND Congressman Miller in support of the "End Institutionalized Child Abuse" bill. Vent your feelings to those who CAN make a difference.
I have mentioned before that in the early days of my crusade, after many calls to Washington DC, they put me in contact with a man by the name of Mitch Kurman. His son died in a canoe (accident) while on a Boy Scout outing. Mitch Kurman was influential in getting Congressman Christopher Shays, Connecticut, to introduce the Recreational Camp Safety Act Bill HR2132. Washington tacked my cause and concern onto this bill and said it was the best I would get. A section on Wilderness Therapy Programs was added to this bill. In the end, this bill was voted FOR 50-0, and later killed behind closed doors. Get the picture?? Politics and greed are the reason why criminal minded people are governing this lucrative industry. Judges who rule IN FAVOR of the programs are partly culpable. DHS is also partly culpable for the neglect, abuse, molestation, and OR death of children who fall victim to this industry.
I have waited a long time for the children who were victimized through the neglectful hands of this lucrative, out-of-control industry to step up, and step forward, without fear, and tell their stories of what happened TO THEM in the "name of help and therapy."
Write your Congressman. Write to Congressman Miller. I have information in my files showing that Congressman Miller truly cares about what is taking place in this industry.
Truth is healing! Please tell your stories.............
I believe you. So will others!
Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund, Inc.
Catherine Sutton
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 03:26:24 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 04:49:15 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
When the choice is between juvie or an abusive hellhole like Draper, CHOOSE JUVIE.
Dear AnonyMom of Murdered Kid:
Your son died screaming.
Do you understand what a bowel infarction truly is? It is a piece of the intestine dying.
One that doesn't let situations get to the point where they're so out of control that I would need to call in someone else to help me deal with it.
BE A FUCKING PARENT!!!!! RAISE YOUR OWN GODDAMN KIDS!!
The therapy program at Youth Care had acutally been extremely detrimental to this boy, and they had started planning for his return home as a suitably humiliated and beaten-down kid. Jesus I'm getting a hard-on just writing this. He wasn't going to see his mother again, and the changes he exhibited in his interpersonal relationships were profound. He learned how to pretend to be a willing participant in his treatment program, understood nothing whatsoever about any real disorder he may have had, and was forced to admit that he needed be there. God I love doing that to kids, hold on while I fap... FAPFAPFAP. Okay, I'm ready for more. He was repeatedly abused while in this program, mom never visited (like I said earlier, she would have had to go ALL THE WAY TO UTAH!) and he had no outside contact with family and friends whatsoever. He was very outspoken about the rights of kids with disabilities, until we beat THAT out of him, having been subjected to cruel bullying in Draper, and learned to participate in the brutalization of several other kids, especially after we taunted him about his dad. What he wouldn't have given to be back in real high school again.
She is a dumb cunt, who will no doubt become a strong advocate against the rights of teens in treatment programs. Her son was on the autism spectrum, which means that we can do anything we want to him because he'll never be able to speak for himself (Well especially not now that he's dead! Hahaha!)
Dear Guest - I assume the same hurtful person is making all of these posts, and I apologize if I insinuated that everyone on this site is this idiot. You are apparently wallowing in self pity. I understand that there are some people on this forum who are concerned about the industry, but your words indicate you are a bitter person and stuck in a rut. I'm sorry if YOU were taken to a treatment programs against your will. I'm sorry if YOUR parents did not care about you, but that does not give you the right to blast me for the decisions I made. My son was not sent against his will, nor was he unloved or abandoned, he went willingly, and preferred his treatment program to his public school, where he was bullied and humiliated daily because of his Aspgerers. He was tired of his anger issues and communication issues, getting arrested, losing control, etc. My son is dead, and his death was preventable. I could be bitter and spout poison insults at a lot of people right now. Instead, I am collecting as much FACTUAL and VERIFIABLE information that I can so that I can have a voice, make phone calls, write some intelligent letters to those elected officials who have the power to make changes. I am trying to look at the big picture and not get bogged down by my anger about my son. I will advocate for the rights of kids to get necessary medical attention and not be denied care by an unqualfied staff person. I guarantee the 2 staff who let my son die will never work in this industry again. Thanks to people like Cathy Sutton changes have been made, and some deaths have been prevented. but every child who goes to a treatment program, for whatever reason, has the right to come home. You are too jaded to see any change. Yes I would love to see Youth Care shut down after his caretakers there didn't take him to the ER. I know it will not happen. Our society values money and power more than a human life. They won't even get a slap on the wrist, they filled my son's bed within several days of his death, and it's business as usual. I'm betting they sold the parents of the kids remaining there information that they were not respondible in any way. They tried to tell me that too, but I'm not buying it. Sure I'm pissed off, but use your anger to make difference. Teens have rights just like everyone else, and I'm all for that, but parents, last time I checked, still have the right to make decisions for their children, especially if they exhibit violent behavior and try to hurt others. If my son had killed his sister, you'd probably be screaming at me for letting him live in my house and "letting" it happen. You sound like one of those bratty kids with entitlement issues. Get some real therapy and get over it. I know something about that. I was abused as a child. I had a major chip on my shoulder as a result. I got over it. I moved on. I had children. Last year I watched my husband have a massive heart attack and die in front of my children, get recussitated, and suffer non-reversible dementia as a result. Eventually I had to take him off life support. It was ugly, and I could spend the rest of my life wallowing in a pity party for myself. I choose not to. This summer my mother died of a horrible cancer, and my son has now died at Youth Care. Their numbers were up, but that doesn't mean I'm going to roll over and not hold those responsible accountable. Life throws us some tough curves sometimes. It's all about choices. I know I made the best choices I could with the cards I got dealt.
Oh, and yes, just so you know, I did visit my son in Utah twice during the 4 months he was there. We played chess, miniature golf, went to the planetarium, saw Spiderman, went to a ropes course, went rollerblading in the park, played board games in my motel, and went out for steaks. He was free to leave the program anytime he wanted to follow my rules at home. He declined. He thought that having to go to school every day, doing homework before video games, not abusing me and my daughter, and not fighting were a violation of his human rights. Sounds a little like you.
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 05:28:25 PM
I am hearing a lot of "blaming" directed at a vulnerable child who because he is dead, can not speak for himself.
:(
Post by: psy on August 23, 2007, 05:55:36 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I guarantee the 2 staff who let my son die will never work in this industry again
Really? Ask Cathy Sutton about Gayle Palmer. Ask Joyce about the Sudweeks or Bernie Farrow. Shit... Point out one industry member that has gotten anything more than a slap on the wrist. I hate to say it, but the only way to guarantee industry members work again isn't quite legal.
Quote
You sound like one of those bratty kids with entitlement issues. Get some real therapy and get over it. I know something about that. I was abused as a child. I had a major chip on my shoulder as a result. I got over it.
What was said to you wasn't right ,but that statement won't make you very popular on fornits. In the program I was in everybody supposedly had "entitlement issues". You probably didn't mean it, but that statement is likely to offend a lot of people here.
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 23, 2007, 06:16:25 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You sound like one of those bratty kids with entitlement issues. Get some real therapy and get over it.
Look lady, I'm sorry your son is dead but FUCK YOU! You have no idea what it's like to be trapped in one of those hellholes. Get over it? How well is your son getting over it? You're almost as bad as the parents of a kid who committed suicide after getting out and they wanted people to donate TO THE FUCKING SCHOOL THAT KILLED HIM. Ya know, because they really meant well. They were trying to save his life.
:roll: :flame:
Quote
I know something about that. I was abused as a child. I had a major chip on my shoulder as a result. I got over it. I moved on. I had children.
Yeah, look how well that turned out. Asperger's kids or kids who have social issue are the LAST kids who should be shipped off like that. The damage is deep and lasting even with a kid that doesn't start off with those issues, I can't imagine what it must have been like for him.
::noway::
Quote
Last year I watched my husband have a massive heart attack and die in front of my children, get recussitated, and suffer non-reversible dementia as a result. Eventually I had to take him off life support. It was ugly, and I could spend the rest of my life wallowing in a pity party for myself. I choose not to.
No comparison. This isn't about pity. We're not sitting around feeling sorry for ourselves. We're trying to figure what the fuck they did to us and how the fuck to live our lives with the effects of it. We were mindfucked. It's not like we can just grieve and move on. Our entire core, the very essence of our being has been changed, and not for the better.
Quote
Oh, and yes, just so you know, I did visit my son in Utah twice during the 4 months he was there.
Well bully for you. Gee. Two whole times in four months. Wow. I'm overwhelmed by your compassion for him.
:roll:
Quote
We played chess, miniature golf, went to the planetarium, saw Spiderman, went to a ropes course, went rollerblading in the park, played board games in my motel, and went out for steaks. He was free to leave the program anytime he wanted to follow my rules at home. He declined. He thought that having to go to school every day, doing homework before video games, not abusing me and my daughter, and not fighting were a violation of his human rights. Sounds a little like you.
Fuck you!! You didn't deserve the son you had.
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 06:19:31 PM
If so, may I suggest to the mother that she inform the school district of the circumstances surrounding her child's death so that they do NOT fund the same kind of shoddy care and treatment for another parent's child?
Post by: Joyce Harris on August 23, 2007, 06:24:04 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I guarantee the 2 staff who let my son die will never work in this industry again
Sadly, there are no such guarantees in this industry.
Jared Eldridge, the County Attorney charged Cheryl Sudweeks with 5 counts of child abuse and 2 counts of hazing against four children in the Whitmore Academy criminal case. Yet, he allowed Cheryl Sudweeks to cop-a-plea to 2 counts of attempted hazing!
In a statement in the Deseret Morning News in this article, "Plea deal for ex-school operator, She agrees not torun another re-hab facility in Juab,"
"These kids made some allegations of abuse and I completely believe them. That's why I filed the case. But the fact that I believe them is one thing, whether a jury is going to believe is a whole different question," Juab County Attorney Jared Eldridge said.
The woman Cathy Sutton hold directly responsible for the death of her beloved daughter, Michelle Sutton, continues to work in this industry, today.
Sadly, there are no guarantees that these two staff members will be stopped from working in the industry, either.
But, I sincerely hope this mother is correct!
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 06:28:18 PM
Quote
I assume the same hurtful person is making all of these posts
You assume wrong; one of the hurtful people is me, and I only made about half of those.
You know what, Anonymom? If you're serious about starting a campaign, do it! Don't let our hatred stop you, and I mean this genuinely. Do what you CAN to the scum who let your son die. Just don't become the next Sue Scheff while you're at it.
But going on Fornits and expecting any amount of sympathy whatsoever is not really a wise idea.
Quote
I am hearing a lot of "blaming" directed at a vulnerable child who because he is dead, can not speak for himself.
NAIL ON FUCKING HEAD.
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 23, 2007, 06:31:29 PM
Quote from: ""Joyce Harris""
The woman Cathy Sutton hold directly responsible for the death of her beloved daughter, Michelle Sutton, continues to work in this industry, today.
Sadly, there are no guarantees that these two staff members will be stopped from working in the industry, either.
But, I sincerely hope this mother is correct!
Yep. Psy and Deb are right. Miller Newton continued to abuse kids for years and years after[/i] he'd been run out of who know how many states for abuse. In fact, I spoke with a woman the other day who confirmed my suspicions about him still "treating" people. Only now he does it under the guise of the priesthood.
They never quit. Their egos won't let them.
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 07:36:42 PM
I "thought" that the horrible, tortorous death of Aaron Bacon would be the last, and that National Legislation would soon follow. NOT SO! What can I say, except to repeat myself. For the most part this industry is NOT governed by caring and compassionate people who care about the health and safety of children. Many have proven to be governed by a hitlarian mentality. As I explained to the GAO. We DID NOT know about the long talked about controversy in regard to this industry before Michelle enrolled in the Summit Quest Program. We were 'sold' a positive, hands on learning experience (school credits included) that would result in her coming home to her family who loved her. As I explained to the GAO, instead Michelle received a "do or die," death sentence, in the hands of inhumane, so-called survival experts.
Check out the May, 2007 issue of the National Geographic Magazine. In there you will read about the July 16th, 2006 death of 16 year old Elisa. She too entered a program voluntarily, but DID NOT make it home. My husband brought this article home to me from work. Someone knowing our fight for what is right placed the article on his desk. This article also mentions the 29 year old man who died the following day in yet another voluntary program. Read what DHS Licensor LJ Dustman has to say about the deaths of these two young people. Speaking of voluntary, Mitch Kurman's son died during a Boy Scout Expedition. This too was voluntary. It doesn't matter if the program, camp or behavior modification school is voluntary or not. The only difference between the entities is HOW the person came to be in the program, camp or school and where the MONEY comes from. Same goes for the Court Adjudicated entity. The same flaws exist in all them. The problem is with the "level of expectation" (little if any accoutability of those whom we entrust the lives of our children) and the "quality of care" (ex-felon worked with program my child died in).
The program told us Michelle dropped dead without warning, was given a blessing and wanted to go. Michelle's journal tells a whole different story.
I wouldn't believe what the program is saying. I wouldn't believe what DHS is saying. The program told us they were going to plant a tree where Michelle collapsed and died. I believe that if we put ALL the parents who's child died in ONE room together.......WOW! I believe the stories would be similar. The "Risk Management" maneuvers exibited by this industry is all too familiar to me. Find someone to blame, take a low profile, wait until things die down, then business as usual.
It's the same animal, but with different spots................
I hope, and still have it in me to pray, because I know that God is watching, that the GAO will offer a report that will expose the TRUTH behind what is happening to children in this industry. I also hope that this will in turn lead to some long overdue changes. The industry doesn't want to be told what to do. But, like the so-called "troubled teens" they are claiming to help with their programs, camps and behavior modification schools, their industry is troubled and in need of intervention.
My deepest sympathy and regards to the family of the most recent victim.
Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund, Inc.
Catherine Sutton
Post by: Che Gookin on August 23, 2007, 09:10:01 PM
Quote
I wouldn't believe what the program is saying. I wouldn't believe what DHS is saying. The program told us they were going to plant a tree where Michelle collapsed and died. I believe that if we put ALL the parents who's child died in ONE room together.......WOW! I believe the stories would be similar. The "Risk Management" maneuvers exibited by this industry is all too familiar to me. Find someone to blame, take a low profile, wait until things die down, then business as usual.
Yes.. yes.. and tragically yes...
[/b]
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 23, 2007, 11:02:37 PM
Mrs.Mom I don't think you know as much about this industry as you think. Read some of the survivor statements and threads on other programs. Also checkout Psy's Benchmark site for the low down on the mind fuckery that goes on. This problem is very complex,
"You don't know the power of the Dark side" - James Earl
Post by: psy on August 23, 2007, 11:16:30 PM
Quote from: ""Joyce Harris""
In a statement in the Deseret Morning News in this article, "Plea deal for ex-school operator, She agrees not torun another re-hab facility in Juab,"
That's right folks. Not "anywhere in the country" or "get the fuck out of Utah". Just "not in my backyard".
Post by: * on August 23, 2007, 11:42:22 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 23, 2007, 11:58:54 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""I guarantee the 2 staff who let my son die will never work in this industry again
Really? Ask Cathy Sutton about Gayle Palmer. Ask Joyce about the Sudweeks or Bernie Farrow. Shit... Point out one industry member that has gotten anything more than a slap on the wrist. I hate to say it, but the only way to guarantee industry members work again isn't quite legal.QuoteYou sound like one of those bratty kids with entitlement issues. Get some real therapy and get over it. I know something about that. I was abused as a child. I had a major chip on my shoulder as a result. I got over it.
What was said to you wasn't right ,but that statement won't make you very popular on fornits. In the program I was in everybody supposedly had "entitlement issues". You probably didn't mean it, but that statement is likely to offend a lot of people here.
I don't have any patience for entitlement and the way our culture promotes it. All teenagers have entitlement issues, it's part of being a teenager. And I really don't care about being popular on this site. I was not popular with my kids when I refused to buy into their entitlement issues when I didn't buy them every new game system or designer shoe that came out, but I stuck to my guns anyway. All I want is accountabliity for my son's death and others before him, and to hopefully prevent another one. If the caretakers who let him die are not prosecuted and prevented from working in the industry again, I will take out a full page ad in the Salt Lake Tribune and hound them until the day I die, along with every legislator who will listen to me. But the bigger question I have is why doesn't the American public care about these deaths? Every other human rights violation gets everyone in a tizzy. Stop slamming the parents for their kids' behavior and deaths and get this BS totally out in the open.
Mom
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 12:15:10 AM
Quote
buy into their entitlement issues
You're still parroting that shit, even now?
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 12:51:38 AM
Please do not underestimate the courage, dedication and strength of Fornits and it's community of advocates, survivors, parents, and others who want nothing more than to prevent another child from being killed in the name of treatment.
Individually and collectively, Forits members are the first line of defense against an industry that preys on children and desperate, overly trusting parents.
Criticism may be harsh but it pales in comparison to the struggle, humiliation and betrayal children who are sent to these programs must endure on a daily basis just to survive.
You have my deepest sympathy, and I hope the persons responsible for your son's death will be held accountable to the full extent the laws in Utah allow.
Welcome to Fornits, glad to have you!
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 01:19:54 AM
The pets were removed from this mans store after it was reported that the animals were alledgedly being mistreated by this pet owner and employees. The air conditioning was not working properly and the pets in the window were sitting in tripple digit temperature.
My husband and I just looked at each other..................
Interesting how pets have more rights than 'children.'
Did anyone hear about the mining incident in Utah? Interesting comments that we can relate to were stated by Mr. Murray.
Ever heard the term COMPLIANCE? That's what we hear a lot from DHS in regard to this industry. A 'child' dies in this industry and the program owners/employees receive a little slap on the wrist, while DHS may be forced (after law officials put the truth out there for them to see) to shut the program down OR give them a provisional license. A provisional license while they come into compliance. My daughter died in the hands of so-called experts who were allowed to operate on a provisional license. The program owners have more rights than the 'children' in their so-called care.
THOUGHT OF THE DAY................
Compliance is like a person speeding OR drunk driver being told to slow down OR drink less when pulled over by the Highway Patrol.
Until this industry is required to pay a hefty fine OR spend time in jail for what is happening to 'children' while in their so-called care, things will not change for the better.
Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund, Inc.
Catherine Sutton
Post by: Che Gookin on August 24, 2007, 02:06:55 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""I guarantee the 2 staff who let my son die will never work in this industry again
Really? Ask Cathy Sutton about Gayle Palmer. Ask Joyce about the Sudweeks or Bernie Farrow. Shit... Point out one industry member that has gotten anything more than a slap on the wrist. I hate to say it, but the only way to guarantee industry members work again isn't quite legal.QuoteYou sound like one of those bratty kids with entitlement issues. Get some real therapy and get over it. I know something about that. I was abused as a child. I had a major chip on my shoulder as a result. I got over it.
What was said to you wasn't right ,but that statement won't make you very popular on fornits. In the program I was in everybody supposedly had "entitlement issues". You probably didn't mean it, but that statement is likely to offend a lot of people here.
I don't have any patience for entitlement and the way our culture promotes it. All teenagers have entitlement issues, it's part of being a teenager. And I really don't care about being popular on this site. I was not popular with my kids when I refused to buy into their entitlement issues when I didn't buy them every new game system or designer shoe that came out, but I stuck to my guns anyway. All I want is accountabliity for my son's death and others before him, and to hopefully prevent another one. If the caretakers who let him die are not prosecuted and prevented from working in the industry again, I will take out a full page ad in the Salt Lake Tribune and hound them until the day I die, along with every legislator who will listen to me. But the bigger question I have is why doesn't the American public care about these deaths? Every other human rights violation gets everyone in a tizzy. Stop slamming the parents for their kids' behavior and deaths and get this BS totally out in the open.
Mom
Good luck with this and I hope you are successful.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 24, 2007, 02:10:29 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""I guarantee the 2 staff who let my son die will never work in this industry again
Really? Ask Cathy Sutton about Gayle Palmer. Ask Joyce about the Sudweeks or Bernie Farrow. Shit... Point out one industry member that has gotten anything more than a slap on the wrist. I hate to say it, but the only way to guarantee industry members work again isn't quite legal.QuoteYou sound like one of those bratty kids with entitlement issues. Get some real therapy and get over it. I know something about that. I was abused as a child. I had a major chip on my shoulder as a result. I got over it.
What was said to you wasn't right ,but that statement won't make you very popular on fornits. In the program I was in everybody supposedly had "entitlement issues". You probably didn't mean it, but that statement is likely to offend a lot of people here.
I don't have any patience for entitlement and the way our culture promotes it. All teenagers have entitlement issues, it's part of being a teenager. And I really don't care about being popular on this site. I was not popular with my kids when I refused to buy into their entitlement issues when I didn't buy them every new game system or designer shoe that came out, but I stuck to my guns anyway. All I want is accountabliity for my son's death and others before him, and to hopefully prevent another one. If the caretakers who let him die are not prosecuted and prevented from working in the industry again, I will take out a full page ad in the Salt Lake Tribune and hound them until the day I die, along with every legislator who will listen to me. But the bigger question I have is why doesn't the American public care about these deaths? Every other human rights violation gets everyone in a tizzy. Stop slamming the parents for their kids' behavior and deaths and get this BS totally out in the open.
Mom
Miss, you have a lot to learn...
Other posters, take min's advice while dealing with this lady she truly doesn't get the depth of this issue. It's not her fault and right now, in the middle of grieving, beating her over the head won't help. Let's be smart and provide her with links to information that can enlighten her.
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 03:58:05 AM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
How common is this condition that effected your son? I ask because many deaths are ruled as a fluke freak of nature, like Anderson, but turn out to be more down to earth.
Also many programs have Professional staff that are hardly ever at the program. I would look into that as well to see if what you were promised matched reality.
.
The type of bowel infarction he had is not commonly seen in the ER, with a fairly high mortality rate, but the coronor and other doctors I have consulted with, indicated surgery could have saved his life, if he had gotton immediate medical attention. The bowel infarction itself was a random thing, not related to meds, not heriditary. Just happens out of the blue, like a ruptured appendix. But death could have been prevented if someone had done their job and followed procedure, instead of assuming he was faking. That's really sick.
Yes, in asnwer to some earlier posts, he was on medication for neuorlogical problems, delusional thinking and behavior. I took him to UCLA Neuropsych last year, and he was titrated gradually off his meds, then put back on when it was obvious they were necessary. Part of the plan -their recommendation - with him being in RTC was closer observation of his behavior to get the meds evened out, after a month in the hospital didn't suffice. His was a challenging situation for many years. Years of individual and family therapy, behavior modification, probation, JH, EM were all inneffective. His social worker refused to provide behavioral services for him, but threatened to report me to CPS for him abusing my daughter if I didn't get him out of my house.
Youth care was not a state or county funded program. Because I was working, I didn't qualify for any help from them. My insurance paid for the 1st couple of months, and I was in the process of setting up school funding. another child from our school disctict had already gone to YC and had a very successful experience there, and had graduated from high school. He came home with a good set of behavior tools and a good attitude toward life. Great kid.
Yeah I'll be sorry for the rest of my life that I sent him there. If I'm lucky, maybe the guilt will kill me.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 24, 2007, 04:42:22 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""How common is this condition that effected your son? I ask because many deaths are ruled as a fluke freak of nature, like Anderson, but turn out to be more down to earth.
Also many programs have Professional staff that are hardly ever at the program. I would look into that as well to see if what you were promised matched reality.
.
The type of bowel infarction he had is not commonly seen in the ER, with a fairly high mortality rate, but the coronor and other doctors I have consulted with, indicated surgery could have saved his life, if he had gotton immediate medical attention. The bowel infarction itself was a random thing, not related to meds, not heriditary. Just happens out of the blue, like a ruptured appendix. But death could have been prevented if someone had done their job and followed procedure, instead of assuming he was faking. That's really sick.
Yes, in asnwer to some earlier posts, he was on medication for neuorlogical problems, delusional thinking and behavior. I took him to UCLA Neuropsych last year, and he was titrated gradually off his meds, then put back on when it was obvious they were necessary. Part of the plan -their recommendation - with him being in RTC was closer observation of his behavior to get the meds evened out, after a month in the hospital didn't suffice. His was a challenging situation for many years. Years of individual and family therapy, behavior modification, probation, JH, EM were all inneffective. His social worker refused to provide behavioral services for him, but threatened to report me to CPS for him abusing my daughter if I didn't get him out of my house.
Youth care was not a state or county funded program. Because I was working, I didn't qualify for any help from them. My insurance paid for the 1st couple of months, and I was in the process of setting up school funding. another child from our school disctict had already gone to YC and had a very successful experience there, and had graduated from high school. He came home with a good set of behavior tools and a good attitude toward life. Great kid.
Yeah I'll be sorry for the rest of my life that I sent him there. If I'm lucky, maybe the guilt will kill me.
Don't say that, you can't let guilt destroy you. It only does a disservice to you and your son. What was the name of the medication? I ask because the medications I've been on all caused really bad withdrawal when I tried to stop taking them. The withdrawal caused me to have extreme fluctuations in my behavior and emotions, I would go from feeling like superman to sobbing in minutes.
Is it possible that your son was over treated? I eventually just stopped getting "treatment"(I still had support from family and my local school district) after years of failed and damaging therapy(drug therapy not a program). However I wasn't violent(SSRIs changed that) so that wasn't something my mom had to worry about. How often was your son violent? Could temporary placements in an emergency hospital psych ward during these violent or suicidal outburst have been an option in your opinion?
Anyway, thats all second guessing and can wait. Have you filed a formal compliant with the State(I guess whoever licenses YC and perhaps CPS)? I would do so to make sure it's a part of YC's record as a confirmed complaint.
Your social worker should not have forced you into a corner like S/he did. You may want to write your state congressman about the lack of options and support provide to you and your son or file a compliant with your states DHS. The debate about BM and programs aside, parents should have quality care options that keep the child in the home or close to home and financial support for treatment if needed.
I'll say it again, feeling guilty and beating yourself up helps no one. Dropping dead is not the mark of a survivor and thats what you must become to bring honor to your son and to help put an end to abuse and neglect of children in need of mental health services.
Post by: Che Gookin on August 24, 2007, 05:10:47 AM
To the mom:
I don't think you are quite aware of how deep the deception goes regarding programs. These places aren't only professionals at scamming parents they also have gotten quite adept at swindling professional psycotherapists.
*Google up any annual meeting of the American Psych Association and more than likely you will see that either the Hyde School or Elan has a booth at the meeting.
more later.
Post by: Che Gookin on August 24, 2007, 08:52:19 AM
As I was saying programmes are the master of deception. They scam parents, ed cons(though I suspect most of them just don't care), and government officials.
In fact these places conn just about everyone that they come into contact with.
State Officials:
* Most of the time when a state run audit is conducted they sweep through the facility looking to ensure that it is up to code. By this I mean that all the fire alarms work, medical kits are in place, fire extinguishers are functional, and no building codes are present. They will also pull a few files at random and check to make sure that the paperwork is properly filled out and the right sort of paperwork is being properly filled out.
In Florida they would pull a random assortment of kids and counselors who would fill out a questionaire. What ever became of that questionaire is beyond me, as I don't ever remember hearing about it again. Most of the kids indicated to me later on that they BSed most of the questions with nonsense answers.
In Alabama they didn't even bother meeting with the kids. They just said, "show us the files and your damn smoke detectors better be working." Of course there was a bit more to it with paperwork inspections, but not to much more.
In both cases neither the state of Florida or the state of Alabama required the facility to forward any incident reports concerning violence or restraints.
*Parents
At Three Springs the song and dance given to parents is honed to such a fine art it boggles the mind. Parents are typically taken to the best looking campsite by two of the higher status kids. Their contact with the youths are limited to those who are trusted. A large part of the parent contact is performed by the admissions office in a nice cozy air conditioned room.
* Ed Cons
Often to scam ed cons the kids would clean the entire campus the night before they would arrive. Ed cons were also taken to the better looking camp sites and so and so forth by the trusted residents.
Now you have to really think and try to look beyond the bullshit to understand how the hell an educated shrink would reccomend some RTC in the first place. I attribute it to three things.
1) Not all shrinks are as informed as they should be, and or believe that the facility they are reccomending really is different from the rest. The believe this more than likely due to the fact they were scammed like the parents were.
2) Some shrinks are cockbiters who probably got their degree out of a cracker jacks box. These sorts shouldn't be allowed to work the register at McDonald's let alone work with people who do or don't need a good head tweaking.
3) Some shrinks are in the program business themselves as an ed con or a program operator.
Now I could go on and on, but the main point here I want to get across to you is that what happened to your son is a terrible thing. The counselor and his/her supervisor should be brought up on involunatry manslaugter charges in my opinion. You have your responsibilities in all of this to be sure. I can't and won't begin to tell you what they are. I suspect you will discover this in your own good time.
Should you feel guilty?
I don't know if should is the case, but more than likely it is just one of those facts of life. Maybe you shouldn't feel guilty but chances are you will anyway.
So given the fact that I probably won't ever be able to convince you to set your guilt aside..
You should definitely feel rage. Use this rage to hound the fuckers that killed your child to the very end of the earth. Show them no mercy in your pursuit of them and know that by doing what you do you will probably be saving some other child the same horrible fate that was inflicted on your son by these bastards.
In the end I want you to know that whatever peace you need to seek for yourself will be between you, your family, and whatever divine spirit you tend to affiliate yourself with. Good luck with that.
*disclaimer... no where in here did I suggest the use of any sort of physical force.
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 10:33:57 AM
Quote from: ""concernedfriend""
To you "Off topic" folks -Instead of bashing parents or staff of programs, and making assumptioms without facts, when you don't even know what happened, let's focus on realistic changes that can be made at the state and/or federal level to stop the madness of teens dying in treatment.
Even with a nurturing parent who has tried everything, and refuses to tolerate maniupulation and abuse by their child, as is the case in the boy in Draper, there are legitimate situations where a parent needs to have their child in a confined treatment program for a temporary period of time, other than juvenile hall, in order to ensure their child's safety, and force them to participate in needed therapy.[/color][/b] This boy's mom has been traumatized by this death, and is still trying to deal with the griefinvolved in the tragic recent deaths of her husband, mother, and now teenage son. She is an educated, caring, and persistent person, Her son was on the autism spectrum, and she had left no stone unturned in trying to find appropriate services for her beautiful, sensitive, intelligent son, who had a right to proper medical treatment in this situation. If the authorities in Utah would do their job, this boy would have returned home in 6 months, returned to his wrestling team, chess, golf, activities with his family and friemds, finished high school, and gone on to college to fulfill his dreams of becoming an architect. Instead his mom got the sheriffs knocking on her door to tell her that her son was dead, without any knowledge he had even been sick, and had to go Utah to visit him. she certainly had the right to expect his safe return. YC is a licensed program, with a good track record, and had been cooperative in making corrective actions in the past to get to a high level of care.
The therapy program at Youth Care had acutally been extremely beneficial to this boy, and they had started planning for his return home. He had had a one week home pass with his mother the week before he died, and the changes he exhibited in his interpersonal relationships were profound. He was a willing participant in his treatment program, understood his disorder, and totally understood the necessity of his mom placing him there. (Funny, his mother posted that he wanted to be there.) He was never abused while in this program, mom visited regularly, (mom said she visited 2 times in 4 months) and he had outside contact with family and friends where appropriate. He was very outspoken about the rights of kids with disabilities, having been subjected to cruel bullying in public schools, made many friends while in treatment, and actually convinced several other kids to stop their self harm behavior with his heartfelt emotion over the loss of his dad last year. He preferred the environment there over his public high school.
Anyone with actual useful information or documentaable proof about negligence about the innerworkings of the state of Utah in regards to reform in residential treatmemt programs and why criminal charges are rarely filed, lack of stiffer licensing and enforcement, etc should post this information so that the family can contact the appropriate high level officials and get effective action. These are not "disposable" kids, shame on those who bash the parents for being the problem instead of actively advocating for legislative change. Get a life and get moving and do something responsible....This boys death is tragic, but let's all turn it into something positive for all the other troubled kids out there who have needs for alternative placememts.
A Sad Friend
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 10:44:45 AM
Guilt comes from there being no accountability in this industry. The first negative comment I heard after the death of my daughter was, "It's their fault she's dead." This came from a member of our Church. A family member said, "Why didn't they have Michelle come stay with us?" DHS said, "You picked the program. It's like picking Day Care." Reading Michelle's journal brought about enormous guilt followed by anger. Gayle Palmer, AKA, Gayle DeGraff's Attorney called me a derranged grieving parent for fighting back. I can live with that one. Standing up to this unregulated industry and their sick, warped mentality, would make anyone a little derranged.
There are three stages to the grieving process. Shock, Denial, Anger and Perspective. I remember them all! I learned how to take the anger and use it in a productive manor.
Guilt is not one of the stages. It just comes with the territory. I kicked myself over and over again for being stupid enough to fall for a scam in the name of money that cost my 'child' her life. BUT, as I learned the TRUTH behind what was happening to 'children' in the name of help and therapy, I stopped kicking myself so hard and started kicking back at the industry that took my 'child' away from me and didn't truly care the way they make you think they do while selling you the program. I began my crusade and started rattling cages to make change occur. I find peace in fighting back.
To the Mom,
The guilt will eat you up inside if you let it. You don't owe anyone here on Fornits an explanation. Every persons individual circumstances are just as different as each of the 'children' who have fallen victim to this industry. We made a decision that cost our child his/her life. This SHOULD NOT have happened. This DID NOT have to happen. We lost our loved one. Not because we didn't love them, but because those we entrusted them with didn't love them the way we do. DO NOT hold yourself responsible, OR accountable for what happened to your son while in the care of this program. Hold those who were with your son last accountable. Stand up, and stay firm, against this industry. Think of the Mother's Against Drunk Driver's. Together we can bring about change that will help other 'children' to follow.
It was said by the program Michelle died in that she could have died crossing the street. But, Michelle did not die crossing the street! She died in the hands of untrained, unqualified counselors who were told that 'children' will die from time to time and they will have to deal with it.
If Mother's Against Drunk Driver's (MADD) didn't already exist, I would have formed an organization called Mother's Against Derranged Director's.
Together we can close the window of loss and fight for a law that will improve the quality of care while raising the level of expectation in this out-of-control industry.
Sincerely,
Catherine
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 11:11:45 AM
You may want to place a Full-Page-Ad in a Utah newspaper; but these Mormon-owned newspaper companies probably wouldn't accept your ad, or sell you the ad space, so don't count on it!
A very few legislators might listen to you, out of politeness; but after reading Mrs. Sutton's posts; don't count on them really doing anything, either.
You have already posted here about all the "positives" about this treatment facility; and how well this facility worked for your son, prior to his medical emergency - so, basically, you are playing right into this facilities hands. You are being this facilty's greatest supporter without even realizing it. Can't have it both ways: "What a wonderful facility that met all my son's needs. Just loved visiting the place, watching my son succed, there. My son loved it there --until he died from medical neligence."
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 11:26:55 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
THANKS SO MUCH for sharing your words of comfort. I am the mom of the boy who died. I am not stupid, I know exactly what a bowel infarction is. I have been to Utah and talked to the coronor about the autopsy, and met with the detective in charge of the case. My son died several hours after his intestine twisted. There is no evidence that it was caused by an injury, there were no bruises, and I examined my son's body myself, I did not just take someone's word for it. His intestine twisted from a mechanical malfunction and he hemoraged to death. Yes, it was probably incredibly painful, and he probably screamed to go the ER, but thanks for the nice visual, it really adds to my grieving process. What? You'd rather live in ignorant bliss? Yes I believe YC was negligent in not having night staff responsible enough to call 911. I am tortured by what his final hours were like, but I am not responsible for the sudden onset of his medical condition, nor is anyone else. Yes, he SHOULD have been in the ER having surgery, not just segregated and checked periodically. I am absolutely horrified that he was not taken to the ER, as was the policy. He might very well have died anyway, but at least he would have had a chance for a surgical repair. YC has a licensed, and board certified/qualified medical doctor and nurse on staff who should have been called, and would have insisted on calling 911 had they been notified, I know them personally and know this for certain. No I do not believe that they wanted him to die because he was a problematic kid. The police have done a thorough investigation, and based on the information I have, it appears that the caretakers on duty the night my son died thought he was faking, obviously they made a bad choice and should be prosecuted. They ALL think EVERY kid is faking. It's built and pounded into the heads of the staff to not believe anything the 'entitled' little brats tell them. It ain't just one bad apple that's spoiling the bunch. It's rotten from the core. I'm not holding my breath, given the previous deaths, but it's out of my control. Bashing me and my supposed lack of parenting skills is not going to change the situation. Most of the people on this site, as far as I can tell, spend way too much time complaining, and very little time doing any real advocacy for change. I had a friend scanning this site and others, trying to get some verifiable and constructive information about previous abuses or medical neglect at Youth Care, but no one has come forward. Wishing that all of the programs will be closed down is unrealistic. As long as there are teens who do not respond to traditional therapies, teens with mental health issues, local communities refuse to provide services, and yes, some bad parenting thrown in, this industy will unfortunately continue to exist. Thanks to the constructive actions of folks like Catharine Sutton and others, the really bad programs do get closed down eventually, and reforms, although minor, are happening in some states. Unfortunately, it takes a child's death to prompt any changes. I will use my son's death and do what I can to see that YC is held accountable for this death, and prompt legistation that will force kid's access to medical care, but it's going to take a lot more than inflammatory insults on this site, it's going to take a lot of people working really hard to be heard in the legislature, and force federal and/or state (which I agree is probably a joke) oversight. Utah is a tough environment in that regard, the Utah department of licensing really should get sued for negligence. How many of you have looked into a class action suit against them? I am doing that. I am really disgusted with the comments on this site about my son's death and my actions in placing him in a residential program, you people are worse than the media. Yes, I researched the teen programs before I sent my son to Utah, I am not stupid. That's where a lot of the sympathy I had for you ended. If you checked, you didn't check hard enough. If you really DID check hard enough and read up on the fact that those types of programs HAVE NO PROVEN SUCCESS and have, in fact, been found to cause even MORE damage and you sent him away anyway. What can be said. Yes, I checked watch lists, I checked for WWASP affiliations. Yes, I checked the credentials of every therapist and clinician on staff. Yes, I agonized over sending him away to school. Yes, he was coming home after 6 months or so, I did not abandon him. No, he was not going to be "cured". I went into it with my eyes pretty wide open. I drove to Utah from California and visited him there, 2 times in 4 months and participated in individual and group therapy, which did exist BTW. Youth Care has a bona fide therapy program. I interviewed a student who had come home. I met every person on the day staff, and called frequently for updates. I had almost daily contact with his therapist, had several phone calls weekly with my son, pass time alone with my son in my motel room on weekends, and a weeklong visit home. And even with my best efforts, still my son tragically ended up dead. As much as you want to blame me and tell me how stupid I was, it's not my fault. I agree, it's not wholly your fault. But now you're becoming an 'advocate' for regulation. THAT is your fault. Eerie reminder of SS and her becoming ad 'advocate' after her daughter was abused. Everyone wants to try and make these places safer, better, kinder, gentler. It can't be done After many years of traditional therapies failed, and local resources were not adequate to keep my son at home, I was fearful for my life and that of my other child; and after felony assault charges and Juvenile Hall did not matter to my son, I was unfortunately forced to remove him from my home. No relatives would take him, no local agencies would provide help, as they were convinced by his false "child abuse" charges that he was abused. Juvy would have kept you and your daughter safe and not subjected your son to forced therapy. In reality, my daughter and I were abused, and I was crazy to keep him at home for as long as I did. It was a no brainer - he was going to kill himself or kill one of us. I still loved him anyway, and wanted him to live with me, but I would not jeapordize my daughter's life any further. While I miss my beautiful spirited boy every day, and will for the rest of my life, I am not going to be bullied by some idiot into thinking I murdered my son by sending him away. I had a right to personal safety in my own home. Until you have had your child come after you with a pitchfork and repeatedly punch you in the face, you have no idea what you are talking about with your parenting skills bullshit. And for those of you who think Juvenile Hall is a better option, you need to spend some time there. I have. It's no picnic. My son would undoubtedly have died there. ?????What? Your son DID die. Hell, at least he, you and your daughter would have had a chance if he was in juvy. And yes, I've been too. I've also been locked up in one of the hellhoes you sent your son too. No comparison, juvy over mindfuck. Utah was unfortunately a better risk. I suspect some of the posters on this site are posers, have no real interest in the topic, and just like to see their own BS in print.
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 11:32:22 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Mom,
You may want to place a Full-Page-Ad in a Utah newspaper; but these Mormon-owned newspaper companies probably wouldn't accept your ad, or sell you the ad space, so don't count on it!
A very few legislators might listen to you, out of politeness; but after reading Mrs. Sutton's posts; don't count on them really doing anything, either.
You have already posted here about all the "positives" about this treatment facility; and how well this facility worked for your son, prior to his medical emergency - so, basically, you are playing right into this facilities hands. You are being this facilty's greatest supporter without even realizing it. Can't have it both ways: "What a wonderful facility that met all my son's needs. Just loved visiting the place, watching my son succed, there. My son loved it there --until he died from medical neligence."
BINGO!
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 12:15:30 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""THANKS SO MUCH for sharing your words of comfort. I am the mom of the boy who died. I am not stupid, I know exactly what a bowel infarction is. I have been to Utah and talked to the coronor about the autopsy, and met with the detective in charge of the case. My son died several hours after his intestine twisted. There is no evidence that it was caused by an injury, there were no bruises, and I examined my son's body myself, I did not just take someone's word for it. His intestine twisted from a mechanical malfunction and he hemoraged to death. Yes, it was probably incredibly painful, and he probably screamed to go the ER, but thanks for the nice visual, it really adds to my grieving process. What? You'd rather live in ignorant bliss? Yes I believe YC was negligent in not having night staff responsible enough to call 911. I am tortured by what his final hours were like, but I am not responsible for the sudden onset of his medical condition, nor is anyone else. Yes, he SHOULD have been in the ER having surgery, not just segregated and checked periodically. I am absolutely horrified that he was not taken to the ER, as was the policy. He might very well have died anyway, but at least he would have had a chance for a surgical repair. YC has a licensed, and board certified/qualified medical doctor and nurse on staff who should have been called, and would have insisted on calling 911 had they been notified, I know them personally and know this for certain. No I do not believe that they wanted him to die because he was a problematic kid. The police have done a thorough investigation, and based on the information I have, it appears that the caretakers on duty the night my son died thought he was faking, obviously they made a bad choice and should be prosecuted. They ALL think EVERY kid is faking. It's built and pounded into the heads of the staff to not believe anything the 'entitled' little brats tell them. It ain't just one bad apple that's spoiling the bunch. It's rotten from the core. I'm not holding my breath, given the previous deaths, but it's out of my control. Bashing me and my supposed lack of parenting skills is not going to change the situation. Most of the people on this site, as far as I can tell, spend way too much time complaining, and very little time doing any real advocacy for change. I had a friend scanning this site and others, trying to get some verifiable and constructive information about previous abuses or medical neglect at Youth Care, but no one has come forward. Wishing that all of the programs will be closed down is unrealistic. As long as there are teens who do not respond to traditional therapies, teens with mental health issues, local communities refuse to provide services, and yes, some bad parenting thrown in, this industy will unfortunately continue to exist. Thanks to the constructive actions of folks like Catharine Sutton and others, the really bad programs do get closed down eventually, and reforms, although minor, are happening in some states. Unfortunately, it takes a child's death to prompt any changes. I will use my son's death and do what I can to see that YC is held accountable for this death, and prompt legistation that will force kid's access to medical care, but it's going to take a lot more than inflammatory insults on this site, it's going to take a lot of people working really hard to be heard in the legislature, and force federal and/or state (which I agree is probably a joke) oversight. Utah is a tough environment in that regard, the Utah department of licensing really should get sued for negligence. How many of you have looked into a class action suit against them? I am doing that. I am really disgusted with the comments on this site about my son's death and my actions in placing him in a residential program, you people are worse than the media. Yes, I researched the teen programs before I sent my son to Utah, I am not stupid. That's where a lot of the sympathy I had for you ended. If you checked, you didn't check hard enough. If you really DID check hard enough and read up on the fact that those types of programs HAVE NO PROVEN SUCCESS and have, in fact, been found to cause even MORE damage and you sent him away anyway. What can be said. Yes, I checked watch lists, I checked for WWASP affiliations. Yes, I checked the credentials of every therapist and clinician on staff. Yes, I agonized over sending him away to school. Yes, he was coming home after 6 months or so, I did not abandon him. No, he was not going to be "cured". I went into it with my eyes pretty wide open. I drove to Utah from California and visited him there, 2 times in 4 months and participated in individual and group therapy, which did exist BTW. Youth Care has a bona fide therapy program. I interviewed a student who had come home. I met every person on the day staff, and called frequently for updates. I had almost daily contact with his therapist, had several phone calls weekly with my son, pass time alone with my son in my motel room on weekends, and a weeklong visit home. And even with my best efforts, still my son tragically ended up dead. As much as you want to blame me and tell me how stupid I was, it's not my fault. I agree, it's not wholly your fault. But now you're becoming an 'advocate' for regulation. THAT is your fault. Eerie reminder of SS and her becoming ad 'advocate' after her daughter was abused. Everyone wants to try and make these places safer, better, kinder, gentler. It can't be done After many years of traditional therapies failed, and local resources were not adequate to keep my son at home, I was fearful for my life and that of my other child; and after felony assault charges and Juvenile Hall did not matter to my son, I was unfortunately forced to remove him from my home. No relatives would take him, no local agencies would provide help, as they were convinced by his false "child abuse" charges that he was abused. Juvy would have kept you and your daughter safe and not subjected your son to forced therapy. In reality, my daughter and I were abused, and I was crazy to keep him at home for as long as I did. It was a no brainer - he was going to kill himself or kill one of us. I still loved him anyway, and wanted him to live with me, but I would not jeapordize my daughter's life any further. While I miss my beautiful spirited boy every day, and will for the rest of my life, I am not going to be bullied by some idiot into thinking I murdered my son by sending him away. I had a right to personal safety in my own home. Until you have had your child come after you with a pitchfork and repeatedly punch you in the face, you have no idea what you are talking about with your parenting skills bullshit. And for those of you who think Juvenile Hall is a better option, you need to spend some time there. I have. It's no picnic. My son would undoubtedly have died there. ?????What? Your son DID die. Hell, at least he, you and your daughter would have had a chance if he was in juvy. And yes, I've been too. I've also been locked up in one of the hellhoes you sent your son too. No comparison, juvy over mindfuck. Utah was unfortunately a better risk. I suspect some of the posters on this site are posers, have no real interest in the topic, and just like to see their own BS in print.
Guest - since you are so much smarter than a whole team of specialists at UCLA, let me ask you a question. What would you have done? My son was in criminal custody, but the judge wanted him out of my home, as did my younger daughter, for a period of 6 months. Juvenile Hall and probation did not want him, judge would not order him into Juvenile Hall, which was worse than any program I've heard about. it is filled with gangs and molestors, and meds were not administred properly. no relatives would take him due to the issues involved. I had had another mom who had worked with kids for years living with me for 6 months, and even that didn't help. Tell me what I could have done, other than find the best quality place I could, which obviously turned out to be a bad choice. Most of the programs I contacted declined to even accept an application, they felt his problems were too challenging. I was unable to work because of his actions. He had to have a police escort to get to school. A police officer sat outside his room in the ER when I took him there when he got violent. No ambulance company would transport him. He had already been to UCLA, they had discharged him, and did not want him back. no community resources where I live, I pounded on doors trying to find a solution. No other ped psych hospitals in California would take him. Please tell me what my other options were. we were scared. My son could overpower me, and my husband had just died. I provided a loving and nurturing home, had reasonable and consistent house rules. My 12 year old spent hours hiding behind her locked door. I had a lock on my bedroom door as well, and was frightened going to bed at night. I felt totally helpless and abused. I would really like to know. Perhaps some other parent can make a better choice than I did.
You missed the point in my last post, which is my fault, I should have made it clearer. I AM filled with rage. I just don't think his death was program related in exactly the same way some other deaths were, in other words, the "programming" did not cause his bowel infarction, as in Michelle and others' deaths, and probably some of you as well. This was blatant medical neglect. Did the night staff think he was manipulating? Likely, and I suspected that from the start. With the issue of "programming" removed from my son's case, and medical neglect the only issue, it may actually make it easeir to get the DA to do something. And because this was a residential facility with a medical staff, and not a camp or wilderness program, the expectations for medical assistance and accessibility are more clear. I am not blind as some would think to the atrocities that go on in some of these places. I grew up in a supposedly "loving Christian home" snakepit that was worse than any of the survivor stories I have read. It took me 20 years to recover from it, but I did. The survivors of programs will too, if they are committed to it, and can replace negative thoughts with positive ones. I still have to work hard every day on pushing away the negative self talk for the emotional and physical abuse I suffered as a child and teenager. That's why I resisted RTC for my son for so many years, and it took me months to find a place. In hindsight I wish I had sent him elsewhere.
Stay tuned to Draper and Salt Lake. I'm getting stronger every day, and this will be my full time job for awhile. I appreciate all the helpful suggestions from this site. For those who insist on calling me foul names and judging me from afar, I still say, get some help, you have not moved on. Be a real voice.
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 12:35:25 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Guest - since you are so much smarter than a whole team of specialists at UCLA, let me ask you a question. You can lose the sarcasm lady. What would you have done? My son was in criminal custody, but the judge wanted him out of my home, as did my younger daughter, for a period of 6 months. Juvenile Hall and probation did not want him, that's not what you said. You said" Juvenile Hall did not matter to my son," judge would not order him into Juvenile Hall, which was worse than any program I've heard about. Not really. I would have much preferred juvy to mindrape. it is filled with gangs and molestors, and meds were not administred properly. no relatives would take him due to the issues involved. I had had another mom who had worked with kids for years living with me for 6 months, and even that didn't help. Tell me what I could have done, other than find the best quality place I could, which obviously turned out to be a bad choice. Most of the programs I contacted declined to even accept an application, they felt his problems were too challenging. I was unable to work because of his actions. He had to have a police escort to get to school. A police officer sat outside his room in the ER when I took him there when he got violent. No ambulance company would transport him. He had already been to UCLA, they had discharged him, and did not want him back. no community resources where I live, I pounded on doors trying to find a solution. No other ped psych hospitals in California would take him. Please tell me what my other options were. we were scared. My son could overpower me, and my husband had just died. I provided a loving and nurturing home, had reasonable and consistent house rules. My 12 year old spent hours hiding behind her locked door. I had a lock on my bedroom door as well, and was frightened going to bed at night. I felt totally helpless and abused. I would really like to know. Juvy Perhaps some other parent can make a better choice than I did.
You missed the point in my last post, which is my fault, I should have made it clearer. I AM filled with rage. I just don't think his death was program related in exactly the same way some other deaths were, in other words, the "programming" did not cause his bowel infarction, as in Michelle and others' deaths, and probably some of you as well. This was blatant medical neglect. Did the night staff think he was manipulating? Likely, and I suspected that from the start. With the issue of "programming" removed from my son's case, and medical neglect the only issue, it may actually make it easeir to get the DA to do something. And because this was a residential facility with a medical staff, and not a camp or wilderness program, Not a hospital either the expectations for medical assistance and accessibility are more clear. I am not blind as some would think to the atrocities that go on in some of these places. I grew up in a supposedly "loving Christian home" snakepit that was worse than any of the survivor stories I have read. It took me 20 years to recover from it, but I did. The survivors of programs will too, if they are committed to it, and can replace negative thoughts with positive ones. I still have to work hard every day on pushing away the negative self talk for the emotional and physical abuse I suffered as a child and teenager. That's why I resisted RTC for my son for so many years, and it took me months to find a place. In hindsight I wish I had sent him elsewhere.
Stay tuned to Draper and Salt Lake. I'm getting stronger every day, and this will be my full time job for awhile. I appreciate all the helpful suggestions from this site. For those who insist on calling me foul names and judging me from afar, I still say, get some help, you have not moved on. And THAT is where you lose a lot of us. Be a real voice.
You too. Do NOT become an "advocate" in the sense of SS. Regulations already exist to protect children from abuse. Enforce THOSE instead of trying to make these places 'safer' with even more regulation. It can't be done. If they're not following the existing regulations that make it illegal to abuse children (it's been said here many times that if parents were doing to these kids what programs do, they'd be arrested for child abuse.) , what makes you think adding more bureaucratic bullshit to sort through will help?
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 12:43:35 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I don't have any patience for entitlement and the way our culture promotes it. All teenagers have entitlement issues, it's part of being a teenager. Which is why you had no patience for your son. And I really don't care about being popular on this site. I was not popular with my kids when I refused to buy into their entitlement issues who created those "entitlement issues" in your son? Did he come by them by osmosis? when I didn't buy them every new game system or designer shoe that came out, but I stuck to my guns anyway. All I want is accountabliity for my son's death and others before him, and to hopefully prevent another one. If the caretakers who let him die are not prosecuted and prevented from working in the industry again, I will take out a full page ad in the Salt Lake Tribune and hound them until the day I die, along with every legislator who will listen to me. But the bigger question I have is why doesn't the American public care about these deaths? Every other human rights violation gets everyone in a tizzy. Stop slamming the parents for their kids' behavior and deaths and get this BS totally out in the open.
Mom
There are certain key words and phrases that give an insight to the mentality of program parents.
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 12:47:38 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
He was a willing participant in his treatment program, understood his disorder, and totally understood the necessity of his mom placing him there. (Funny, his mother posted that he wanted to be there.) He was never abused while in this program, mom visited regularly, (mom said she visited 2 times in 4 months) and he had outside contact with family and friends where appropriate. He was very outspoken about the rights of kids with disabilities, having been subjected to cruel bullying in public schools, made many friends while in treatment, and actually convinced several other kids to stop their self harm behavior with his heartfelt emotion over the loss of his dad last year. He preferred the environment there over his public high school.
Anyone with actual useful information or documentaable proof about negligence about the innerworkings of the state of Utah in regards to reform in residential treatmemt programs and why criminal charges are rarely filed, lack of stiffer licensing and enforcement, etc should post this information so that the family can contact the appropriate high level officials and get effective action. These are not "disposable" kids, shame on those who bash the parents for being the problem instead of actively advocating for legislative change. Get a life and get moving and do something responsible....This boys death is tragic, but let's all turn it into something positive for all the other troubled kids out there who have needs for alternative placememts.
A Sad Friend
So, did he want to be there or "understand the necessity"?
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 01:16:59 PM
"What a wonderful facility that met all my son's needs. Just loved visiting the place, watching my son succed, there. My son loved it there --until he died from medical neligence."
This post happens to be the awful truth about this industry.
I am a Mormon by faith, yet I am behind those of you who are up against this industry AND the Mormon's who think it's OK to abuse children in the name of therapy. Not ALL Mormon's think the way those who are in support of these programs do. I know, because I have talked to members of my own faith about this industry. They are as shocked and outraged as I am.
There ARE already enough state to state regulations in place that SHOULD protect children. But, in states like Utah, it appears to be legal to abuse 'children.' In regard to the state to state regulations, I am for enforcing the laws. Hold these people accountable with more than a slap on the wrist.
I learned of two laws that were already in place, the "Child Protection Act, and the ICPC (Interstate compact for the Placement of Children) after the death of my daughter. I tried to hold the ICPC over the heads of the industry as they found a way around it. I believe this industry is in need of National Legislation because when a program is shut down they all too often move their operation to another state where the laws are lax OR non-existent.
Meanwhile, I will encourage parents to find other alternatives, other than this industry, to help them with their 'child.'
Catherine
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 01:19:55 PM
::puke::
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=215887#215887 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=215887#215887)
Quote
The study implies that NATSAP programs are "licensed". How many are licensed?
HLA isn?t.
993 participants, an average of 6 participants per NATSAP program.
This was not an Independent study. One must also consider the author?s connections with the industry.
C Smoot employed by AEG and serveral other RTCs.
Smoot and Behrens co-create Evidence Based Consulting.
Behrens Clinical Director for Youth Care program, Member NATSAP.
Smoots 'partner' with AEGs Youth Care program.
Smoots are 'associates' of Open Sky Wilderness, Member NATSAP.
Behrens creates Canyon Research and Consulting- most of their clients are AEG programs.
Smoot and Behrens pitch EBC to NATSAP.
Dr. Kevin Fenstermacher employed by both EBC and CRC.
Looks more like a concerted effort to shore up the industry?s reputation, and give parents a false sense of security.
Who is Ellen Behrens, lead researcher at Canyon Research & Consulting, Salt Lake City, Utah?
Sept 2005- AEG?s Youth Care in Draper, Utah ?partners? with Evidence Based Consulting (EBC), a group of psychologists. (Only 2 listed- Tracine and Carl Smoot)- committed to fulfilling the National Institute of Mental Health's agenda for the application of evidence-based research in testing, assessment and treatment.
This is how the innovative partnership works: EBC provides testing services for Youth Care students by using up-to-date psychological tests, interpretive strategies, and treatment recommendations that are suggested in the research literature. In collaboration with Youth Care therapists, a strategic treatment plan is developed, utilizing research-based practices and measurements. The additional perspective of EBC psychologists provides the best possible assessments and treatment for Youth Care students.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5186.shtml (http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/article_5186.shtml)
More on Evidence Based Consulting
http://www.evidencebasedconsulting.com/ (http://www.evidencebasedconsulting.com/)
Behrens, Clinical Dir of Youth Care
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=218094#218094 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=218094#218094)
Smoot?s are ?Associates? of Open Sky Wilderness
Prior to completing his graduate work, Carl was employed in hospital management. He successfully ran two inpatient psychiatry programs and was later a therapist at (AEGs) Youth Care, Inc.
http://www.openskywilderness.com/assoc.htm (http://www.openskywilderness.com/assoc.htm)
Oct 2005- AEG hosts workshop in Utah. One of the guest speakers:
Ellen Behrens, PhD discussed out of home treatment outcome research. She is the co-founder of Evidence Based Consulting. Behrens was the principal investigator for a large, multi-center study on student outcomes in residential treatment.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5204.shtml (http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/article_5204.shtml)
June ?05 Ellen Behrens and Tracine Smoot pitch ?Evidence-based Practice? to NATSAP members.
http://www.natsap.org/Newsletters/NATSA ... letter.pdf (http://www.natsap.org/Newsletters/NATSAP%20Summer%20Newsletter.pdf)
Dr. Kevin Fenstermacher works for both ?Evidence Based Consulting? (Smoots) and ?Canyon Research and Consulting? (Behrens).
http://canyonrc.com/experience.html (http://canyonrc.com/experience.html)
http://psychologicalsolutions.info/exec ... 0team.html (http://psychologicalsolutions.info/executive%20team.html)
Who are CRCs clients? And, who funded this study?
http://canyonrc.com/experience.html (http://canyonrc.com/experience.html)
A whole slew of AEG programs.
Under Links at CRCs website one is taken to the APAs Empirically Supported Treatments page. http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_est/index.html (http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_est/index.html)
Their recommendations, under Oppositional Disorders:
Because the immediate goal of treatment is to develop parenting skills, the therapist begins by having parents apply new skills to relatively simple problems (e.g., compliance, completion of chores, oppositional behavior). As parents become proficient using the initial techniques, the child's most serious problem behaviors at home and in school are addressed (e.g., fighting, poor school performance, truancy, stealing, firesetting). In most PMT (PARENT Management Training) programs, the therapist maintains close telephone contact with the parents in-between sessions. These contacts are used to encourage parents to ask questions about the home programs, to provide an opportunity for the therapist to prompt compliance with the behavior-change programs and reinforce parents' use of the skills, to strengthen the therapeutic alliance, and to allow the therapist to problem-solve when programs are not modifying child behavior effectively.
II. Summary of Studies Supporting Treatment Efficacy
PMT is one of the most extensively studied therapies for children and has been shown to be effective in decreasing oppositional, aggressive, and antisocial behavior (for reviews of research, see Dumas, 1989; Forehand & Long, 1988; Kazdin, 1985; Miller & Prinz, 1990; Moreland, Schwebel, Beck, & Wells, 1982). Randomized controlled trials have found that PMT is more effective in changing antisocial behavior and promoting prosocial behavior than many other treatments (e.g. relationship, play therapy, family therapies, varied community services) and control conditions (e.g. waiting-list, "attention-placebo"). Follow-up data have shown that gains are maintained from posttreatment to 1 and 3 years after treatment has ended. One research team found that noncompliant children treated by parent training were functioning as well as nonclinic individuals approximately 14 years later (Long, Forehand, Wierson, & Morgan, 1994). The benefits of PMT often generalize to areas that are not focused on directly during therapy. For example, improvements in parental adjustment and functioning, marital satisfaction, and sibling behavior have been found following therapy. Overall, perhaps no other technique has been as carefully documented and empirically supported as PMT in treating conduct problems.
A unique feature of PMT is the abundance of research on child, parent, and family factors that moderate treatment effects. Moreover, PMT, either alone or in combination with other techniques, has been applied with promising effects to other populations including autistic children, mentally retarded children and adolescents, adjudicated delinquents, and parents who physically abuse their children. The principles and procedures on which PMT relies have also been applied in many settings including schools, institutions, community homes, day-care facilities, and facilities for the elderly.
http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_ ... child.html (http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_est/pmt_child.html)
One must also consider the report presented August 12 at the American Psychological Association Convention by Allison Pinto PhD.
http://apinto.blog.usf.edu/2006/08/21/e ... -treatment (http://apinto.blog.usf.edu/2006/08/21/exploitation-of-youth-families-perspectives-on-unregulated-residential-treatment)
Last edited by Deborah on Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 01:35:31 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Guest - since you are so much smarter than a whole team of specialists at UCLA, let me ask you a question. You can lose the sarcasm lady. What would you have done? My son was in criminal custody, but the judge wanted him out of my home, as did my younger daughter, for a period of 6 months. Juvenile Hall and probation did not want him, that's not what you said. You said" Juvenile Hall did not matter to my son," judge would not order him into Juvenile Hall, which was worse than any program I've heard about. Not really. I would have much preferred juvy to mindrape. it is filled with gangs and molestors, and meds were not administred properly. no relatives would take him due to the issues involved. I had had another mom who had worked with kids for years living with me for 6 months, and even that didn't help. Tell me what I could have done, other than find the best quality place I could, which obviously turned out to be a bad choice. Most of the programs I contacted declined to even accept an application, they felt his problems were too challenging. I was unable to work because of his actions. He had to have a police escort to get to school. A police officer sat outside his room in the ER when I took him there when he got violent. No ambulance company would transport him. He had already been to UCLA, they had discharged him, and did not want him back. no community resources where I live, I pounded on doors trying to find a solution. No other ped psych hospitals in California would take him. Please tell me what my other options were. we were scared. My son could overpower me, and my husband had just died. I provided a loving and nurturing home, had reasonable and consistent house rules. My 12 year old spent hours hiding behind her locked door. I had a lock on my bedroom door as well, and was frightened going to bed at night. I felt totally helpless and abused. I would really like to know. Juvy Perhaps some other parent can make a better choice than I did.
You missed the point in my last post, which is my fault, I should have made it clearer. I AM filled with rage. I just don't think his death was program related in exactly the same way some other deaths were, in other words, the "programming" did not cause his bowel infarction, as in Michelle and others' deaths, and probably some of you as well. This was blatant medical neglect. Did the night staff think he was manipulating? Likely, and I suspected that from the start. With the issue of "programming" removed from my son's case, and medical neglect the only issue, it may actually make it easeir to get the DA to do something. And because this was a residential facility with a medical staff, and not a camp or wilderness program, Not a hospital either the expectations for medical assistance and accessibility are more clear. I am not blind as some would think to the atrocities that go on in some of these places. I grew up in a supposedly "loving Christian home" snakepit that was worse than any of the survivor stories I have read. It took me 20 years to recover from it, but I did. The survivors of programs will too, if they are committed to it, and can replace negative thoughts with positive ones. I still have to work hard every day on pushing away the negative self talk for the emotional and physical abuse I suffered as a child and teenager. That's why I resisted RTC for my son for so many years, and it took me months to find a place. In hindsight I wish I had sent him elsewhere.
Stay tuned to Draper and Salt Lake. I'm getting stronger every day, and this will be my full time job for awhile. I appreciate all the helpful suggestions from this site. For those who insist on calling me foul names and judging me from afar, I still say, get some help, you have not moved on. And THAT is where you lose a lot of us. Be a real voice.
You too. Do NOT become an "advocate" in the sense of SS. Regulations already exist to protect children from abuse. Enforce THOSE instead of trying to make these places 'safer' with even more regulation. It can't be done. If they're not following the existing regulations that make it illegal to abuse children (it's been said here many times that if parents were doing to these kids what programs do, they'd be arrested for child abuse.) , what makes you think adding more bureaucratic bullshit to sort through will help?
I never said I thought I could make them safer. I said I was going to push for criminal charges and accountability. I'm not unrealistic to the mormon and money situation in Utah. these programs will NEVER get shut down. With persistence, hopefully we can make them be accountable for their actions. If your voice is being heard so well, why isn't this headline news? why is it so hard for parents to get valid information? Why can't I even find a state by state database of the program deaths? There will be one soon.
JH was not the answer, we are talking about a child with mental health issues, not a dog, and I really challenge you to come up with a better one. We already tried that 3 times. Communities and mental health professionals and parents really need to step up to the plate and find/fund a better community solution. I'm working on that in my community.
Please excuse my sarcasm while I greive the loss of most of my family . I'll get past it and turn it into something positive. Watch me.
Mom
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 01:50:07 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I never said I thought I could make them safer. I said I was going to push for criminal charges and accountability. I'm not unrealistic to the mormon and money situation in Utah. these programs will NEVER get shut down.
If parents start taking responsibility for their own children, they will. If parents refuse to send their kids away, they will. I'm not into trying to make programs safer, gentler or anything except non-existent. Lofty goal, sure but I couldn't live with myself any other way.
Quote
With persistence, hopefully we can make them be accountable for their actions. If your voice is being heard so well, why isn't this headline news? why is it so hard for parents to get valid information? Why can't I even find a state by state database of the program deaths? There will be one soon.
Because most parents are like you were (before sending him away). They really believe it will help. Whenever one of the deaths DOES make it to press, we're told "that it's an isolated incident, not all programs are like that. Here's a decent one" (and then the EdCon or grieving parent-turned-"advocate" trots out the latest 'new, improved' version of the same old bullshit.) Bullshit, it's inherent to the philosophy of the programs.
Quote
JH was not the answer, we are talking about a child with mental health issues, not a dog,
Then put him in a fucking hospital, not an adult kennel.
Quote
Please excuse my sarcasm while I greive the loss of most of my family . I'll get past it and turn it into something positive. Watch me.
Mom
Good, get on it then.
:roll:
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 24, 2007, 05:45:38 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Fuck you!! You didn't deserve the son you had.
AnonMom, I did want to apologize for this. I shouldn't have said that. I do want you to understand where some of my anger comes from though. I'm really angry that I had to endure what I did, but I'm even more angry about what happened to your son. I'm angry that people who are supposed to be 'advocates' for the kids are turning into the Boogeymen they condemn. I'm angry that every time one of us speaks out about how awful these places are, we're told to 'get over it' (I think that's what triggered my outburst, I get so sick of that) or that we're just miserable losers or drug addicts or whatever else. (And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup pig. It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great) I'm angry that year after year, kid after kid is dying and no one seems to give a damn. I'm angry at the culture that spawned this (this puritanical Drug War has cost so many lives, so much money, so many resources) and perpetuates it.
I'm angry because I still, in some ways at least, feel as helpless as I did sitting in that damn blue chair on front row. It sucks.
I'm probably PMSing too (half kidding). I am in a raw mood today.
I hope you accept my apology, it is sincere. I still don't agree with all of what you've said, but I am sorry for what you went through. I guess some of what you posted triggered something and I went off half-cocked. Isn't the first time, won't be the last.
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 06:24:07 PM
I beg you to look at these programs (not just the one your son was in) .. but, all these programs as a whole. There is a mentality. The same one that killed your son. What will happen is the staff members who ignored your son's pleas may not work in the industry again. maybe.. That won't solve it. It may seem like a fluke, an accident that could have been prevented. It isnt. The same people who employed and trained the staff will still be going strong in the industry. Like the Gayle Degraff's who boast about their 20 year tenure in the industry. Its a mindset, a program-- all of it. He didnt die of medical neglect by accident. Its part of the program. The probably thought he was manipulating or he needed to "tough it out." It happend recently to Caleb and it happend to Michelle many years ago. I agree you needed help with you son and you should have been able to find him proper resources. The problem with the industry is you can't tell a "good" theraputic facility from a abusive cult type program. The language is the same -- the marketing is the same. I am sorry this happend to you. Please have sympathy for those who lived through the trama. It is a lot like being a POW. You just don't simply "get over it." Some of the folks on fornits are people are in their 40's & maybe 50's. They suffered many years of pain before being validated that what was done to them was wrong. I ask you to listen to them. Ignore their anger and listen to where they come from. Its a very tangled deep web of lies and deception. In your research you will find the same story as your sons over and over again. Medical Neglect .. its part of the program. I'm sorry you had to endure the loss of your son. We hope you will be a strong voice to those who you have the ear of now.. to let them know.. what is happening in these programs is abuse and it needs to stop .. it is against the law. We counting on your voice.
Post by: TheWho on August 24, 2007, 07:10:43 PM
Quote
(And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup pig. It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great)
Anne, fornits should have space on its board to create and support a thread or forum for those survivors who are presently in a good space in their lives and want to talk about it or share it without pissing off those who are going thru a tough time.
People dying of cancer who have very little hope like to talk about the good day they had or the time they spent with family, It isn’t healthy to focus on the anger 24/7 and it wouldnt diminish your cause if you shared the good side with others. After all it is a healing process which is typically a mixture of good and bad with ,hopefully, the good outweighing the bad over time.
It would be good to heard the softer side of others like getting a phone call from a loved one or taking a short sail up the coast with a steady but soft wind out of the south, just enough to keep the jib and main sail full and trim , sight a small land mark as a heading, adjust the main stay and free up one hand from the tiller so you can light up as you feel the occasional spray of salt water encompass you as it spills over the bow and life is good for a short time. Its important to be able to share these experiences with others if that’s what you like.
Post by: Anonymous on August 24, 2007, 07:29:45 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: ""Guest""
Then put him in a fucking hospital, not an adult kennel.
:roll:
I did that, twice. After $48,000.00 and several weeks of observation, they gave him the boot and referred him to RTC. Which is my point. There truly is no help out there for extreme situations. Look past yours. When a parent runs out of options, what other option is there? My challenge still has not been answered.
anyone with verifiable information about abuse or neglect at Youth Care can contact justiceforbrendan@hotmail.com. All serious inquiries addressed. The jerkoffs who get off on others' pain will be ignored.
Mom
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 24, 2007, 11:28:20 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Anne Bonney wrote:Quote(And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup pig. It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great)
Anne, fornits should have space on its board to create and support a thread or forum for those survivors who are presently in a good space in their lives and want to talk about it or share it without pissing off those who are going thru a tough time.
People dying of cancer who have very little hope like to talk about the good day they had or the time they spent with family, It isn’t healthy to focus on the anger 24/7 and it wouldnt diminish your cause if you shared the good side with others. After all it is a healing process which is typically a mixture of good and bad with ,hopefully, the good outweighing the bad over time.
It would be good to heard the softer side of others like getting a phone call from a loved one or taking a short sail up the coast with a steady but soft wind out of the south, just enough to keep the jib and main sail full and trim , sight a small land mark as a heading, adjust the main stay and free up one hand from the tiller so you can light up as you feel the occasional spray of salt water encompass you as it spills over the bow and life is good for a short time. Its important to be able to share these experiences with others if that’s what you like.
Fuck off you shill. No sailor worth his salt would ever support the kind of shit that goes on at ASR, HLA, Straight, AARC, Hyde and all the rest. Those comments were directed at the program proponents. If I say I'm traumatized, I"m a loser, If I talk about the good things in my life, then I MUST owe it to the program. :roll:
You want to change a kids life and you have the money to ship 'em off to stranger? Charter a boat, take them out and actuallly DO something with them. Make them a part of your life, instead of an accessory. Take a few months off and charter a boat and go sailing around the Caribbean. I'm not kidding. There was a friend of mine I was hanging out with right before I was sent off. She was doing 3X as much as I was (which was next to nothing anyway, normal teen shit). Her parents (I later found out the reasoning because I asked them what their thought process was since both they and my parents were exposed to the same shpiel and sent their kids to the same private school) decided to take the money they would have spent sending her to Straight and instead take the whole family on a sailing trip through the Caribbean. They were responsible on night watch for the family's safety, and that's not something to be taken lightly out there. Seriously, even in something close like Florida Bay, they understood that if you didn't work as a team, you were dead. No argument, no negotiation. But they understood it because IT HAD A POINT It wasn't busy work and they actually learned about life, because it wasn't hidden from them. They weren't isolated from the outside world, They were exposed to and embraced it... They knew this and adapted appropriately. They stopped at islands, volunteering all the way and learning about life and different cultures. They were exposed to alcohol in a responsible (albeit fun)_and sensible manner, instead of approaching it like it was poison. And don't come back and tell me that you can't afford it. Get creative. You don't have to sail the seven seas, go camping for a few months. Backpack across a couple of states. Get involved in your kids' lives. It can be done very cheaply if you're determined.
Seriously, my main point in this......ALL of this is that too many parents are turning over the responsibility of raising their kids tosomeone else. They expect school, or church or the gubment or god forbid Al Anon or whatever brand or form of salvation you choose to tell you how to live your life or what is rign and what is wrong. The reality is, it lies within. No amount of force or coercion will ever give that to you. You can temporarily change someone's behavior, but in order to change someone against their will, you have to break that will. That is NEVER safe or good. The end does NOT justify the means.
**edited to add blue text. I was proofing this, not so successfully, and hit go too soon.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 24, 2007, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: ""Guest""Quote from: ""Guest""
Then put him in a fucking hospital, not an adult kennel.
:roll:
I did that, twice. After $48,000.00 and several weeks of observation, they gave him the boot and referred him to RTC. Which is my point. There truly is no help out there for extreme situations. Look past yours. When a parent runs out of options, what other option is there? My challenge still has not been answered.
anyone with verifiable information about abuse or neglect at Youth Care can contact justiceforbrendan@hotmail.com. All serious inquiries addressed. The jerkoffs who get off on others' pain will be ignored.
Mom
Yup. sounds like folks trying to use the hammer. Instead of backing off they kept pushing more and more restrictive treatment. It's counter productive for things that can't be "fixed". Like depression, you can't fix it you can only try to cope until it lifts. I took time off from high school and really put my life on hold while I was really sick. My doc wanted me to keep doing all the "normal" things in life while I was sick, every time we tried that I would get worse and worse. When his treatments failed he actually tried to get me to get shock therapy.....
Question you say your son was violent? Was this the initial problem or did it come later? You mentioned that he was bullied, could this have sparked his violence and what was done to stop the bulling?
Post by: Che Gookin on August 25, 2007, 02:13:31 AM
Rather than trying to pillory the mother for doing what she felt was in the best interest of her son why don't we acknowledge her loss and help this woman in anyway possible to bring about the end of this shitpit?
Because honestly I don't really concern myself with what she thinks or believes about the appropriateness of the placement. That is her deal, she was there, she was dealing with it, she made the call based on the conditions that she witnessed. Damned if I know what the heck was going on in her house at the time, so you won't see me casting judgement against the lady. Particularly given the idea that the more time passes and the more this lady investigates the program and others like it the oh so painfully obvious patterns of similarites in the neglect and abuse of children will become all the more apparent.
Let's get in on the action and help deliver Youthcare a primo number one skull fornicatin' session that is probably long overdue.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 25, 2007, 03:26:21 AM
The only other thing I can think of besides what's already been suggested is to get a law passed that would make failure to provide medical care because the staff believe the child is faking a criminal offense and negligent homicide if the child dies. That would make it clear that this is a crime and start putting people behind bars.
I believe anyone can write a law but you need to get a congressmen to sponsor it. The advantage you have is that, unlike restraint deaths, you can't twist the faking excuse into something thats necessary, making any opposition to a law making this a criminal offense basically legless.
Get in touch with other groups(don't have to be related to this issue) who have gotten laws passed to get some tips on how they went about navigating the system, getting support, running a campaign, etc...
Is something like this doable Cathy?
Post by: Covergaard on August 25, 2007, 08:30:30 AM
Every day there is a child, which needs to deal with it whether we like it or not. If they react violent or ends up in deep depression should not be the question. The question is:
Why were there no local help to get, when we are talking about an everyday problem?
I don't know what made the facility so special regarding taking care of the problem. We do not have the parent manual, so we can read what kind of therapeutic approach they claim to use. I would like it, so we can put the facility on fornits wiki: It can be mailed to youthcare(a)secretprisonsforteens.dk
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2007, 12:18:46 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
You're right.....
The only other thing I can think of besides what's already been suggested is to get a law passed that would make failure to provide medical care because the staff believe the child is faking a criminal offense and negligent homicide if the child dies. That would make it clear that this is a crime and start putting people behind bars.
I believe anyone can write a law but you need to get a congressmen to sponsor it. The advantage you have is that, unlike restraint deaths, you can't twist the faking excuse into something thats necessary, making any opposition to a law making this a criminal offense basically legless.
Get in touch with other groups(don't have to be related to this issue) who have gotten laws passed to get some tips on how they went about navigating the system, getting support, running a campaign, etc...
Is something like this doable Cathy?
that's exactly what my personal mission is, in addition to going after the local mental health community for gross negligence, and I have several leads on congressWOMEN (with children) who may be interested in both issues. Until both the program administrators and their bank accounts, along with the individual caretakers are held financially and personally accountable and hit where it really hurts them, this madness will continue. I am also getting close to some good national media contacts. And I have talked with Cathy Sutton about it. Once I get past my son's memorial service and my daughter starts school I will have more free time and will post the information here for anyone who wants to chime in. And I do believe my son's case is different in some critical ways that can be useful.
Pitbull mom
Helpful information can be sent to justiceforbrendan@hotmail.com.
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2007, 12:52:48 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Anne Bonney wrote:Quote(And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup pig. It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great)
Anne, fornits should have space on its board to create and support a thread or forum for those survivors who are presently in a good space in their lives and want to talk about it or share it without pissing off those who are going thru a tough time.
People dying of cancer who have very little hope like to talk about the good day they had or the time they spent with family, It isn’t healthy to focus on the anger 24/7 and it wouldnt diminish your cause if you shared the good side with others. After all it is a healing process which is typically a mixture of good and bad with ,hopefully, the good outweighing the bad over time.
It would be good to heard the softer side of others like getting a phone call from a loved one or taking a short sail up the coast with a steady but soft wind out of the south, just enough to keep the jib and main sail full and trim , sight a small land mark as a heading, adjust the main stay and free up one hand from the tiller so you can light up as you feel the occasional spray of salt water encompass you as it spills over the bow and life is good for a short time. Its important to be able to share these experiences with others if that’s what you like.
Fuck off you shill. No sailor worth his salt would ever support the kind of shit that goes on at ASR, HLA, Straight, AARC, Hyde and all the rest. Those comments were directed at the program proponents. If I say I'm traumatized, I"m a loser, If I talk about the good things in my life, then I MUST owe it to the program. :roll:
You want to change a kids life and you have the money to ship 'em off to stranger? Charter a boat, take them out and actuallly DO something with them. Make them a part of your life, instead of an accessory. Take a few months off and charter a boat and go sailing around the Caribbean. I'm not kidding. There was a friend of mine I was hanging out with right before I was sent off. She was doing 3X as much as I was (which was next to nothing anyway, normal teen shit). Her parents (I later found out the reasoning because I asked them what their thought process was since both they and my parents were exposed to the same shpiel and sent their kids to the same private school) decided to take the money they would have spent sending her to Straight and instead take the whole family on a sailing trip through the Caribbean. They were responsible on night watch for the family's safety, and that's not something to be taken lightly out there. Seriously, even in something close like Florida Bay, they understood that if you didn't work as a team, you were dead. No argument, no negotiation. But they understood it because IT HAD A POINT It wasn't busy work and they actually learned about life, because it wasn't hidden from them. They weren't isolated from the outside world, They were exposed to and embraced it... They knew this and adapted appropriately. They stopped at islands, volunteering all the way and learning about life and different cultures. They were exposed to alcohol in a responsible (albeit fun)_and sensible manner, instead of approaching it like it was poison. And don't come back and tell me that you can't afford it. Get creative. You don't have to sail the seven seas, go camping for a few months. Backpack across a couple of states. Get involved in your kids' lives. It can be done very cheaply if you're determined.
Seriously, my main point in this......ALL of this is that too many parents are turning over the responsibility of raising their kids tosomeone else. They expect school, or church or the gubment or god forbid Al Anon or whatever brand or form of salvation you choose to tell you how to live your life or what is rign and what is wrong. The reality is, it lies within. No amount of force or coercion will ever give that to you. You can temporarily change someone's behavior, but in order to change someone against their will, you have to break that will. That is NEVER safe or good. The end does NOT justify the means.
**edited to add blue text. I was proofing this, not so successfully, and hit go too soon.
You make some really good points, and those are all great suggestions. Some people do all of that and still need help. Communities need to rally around those that do, and help them, not ostrasize them or make them the problem. My husband and I were very involved in our son's life - camping, sports, scouts, family meetings, volunteer activities, family therapy, wrestling club, frequent weekend trips to see the world. My kid's brain seems to have had some faulty wiring. We accepted him the way he was, loved him, and did everything we could to help him cope and build his self esteem. Add in teenager hormones and a system insensitive to bullying, and suddenly you have have a dangerous kid. I ended up being investigated by CPS because my kid filed malicious and false child abuse reports becuase he did not agree with our family rules and consistent enforcement. The charges were determined to be unfounded, but the DHS based their entire service plan on believing he was abused, and did not take my safety concerns seriously. I did not turn over responsiblity to anyone, in fact I refused to let him become a ward of the court, which is partly why he ended up in Utah. I just asked for help. A social aide, a classroom aide. A tutor. A behaviorist to come into my home and help us with issues on a day to day basis. Some respite care so I could regroup my own emotions from the abuse. This kind of help is out there, if you can get it. I was promised services, and then denied because I could not qualify for Medi-cal. it's all about the $$$. It's not always the parents' fault. I'm not saying never.
In my grieving process over the deaths of my husband, my mother and my son over the past 8 months, I have come to understand that I am not always in control of the events that have happened in my life, only in the way that I respond and move on with my life. And sometimes you do have to reach out for help.
Pitbull mom
Post by: TheWho on August 25, 2007, 12:53:01 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Anne Bonney wrote:Quote(And then if I post about what IS good in my life, which is a lot right now, I'm chided for being a stuckup pig. It sucks too, because I really would like to talk about what's going on in my life that's great)
Anne, fornits should have space on its board to create and support a thread or forum for those survivors who are presently in a good space in their lives and want to talk about it or share it without pissing off those who are going thru a tough time.
People dying of cancer who have very little hope like to talk about the good day they had or the time they spent with family, It isn’t healthy to focus on the anger 24/7 and it wouldnt diminish your cause if you shared the good side with others. After all it is a healing process which is typically a mixture of good and bad with ,hopefully, the good outweighing the bad over time.
It would be good to heard the softer side of others like getting a phone call from a loved one or taking a short sail up the coast with a steady but soft wind out of the south, just enough to keep the jib and main sail full and trim , sight a small land mark as a heading, adjust the main stay and free up one hand from the tiller so you can light up as you feel the occasional spray of salt water encompass you as it spills over the bow and life is good for a short time. Its important to be able to share these experiences with others if that’s what you like.
Fuck off you shill. No sailor worth his salt would ever support the kind of shit that goes on at ASR, HLA, Straight, AARC, Hyde and all the rest. Those comments were directed at the program proponents. If I say I'm traumatized, I"m a loser, If I talk about the good things in my life, then I MUST owe it to the program. :roll:
You want to change a kids life and you have the money to ship 'em off to stranger? Charter a boat, take them out and actuallly DO something with them. Make them a part of your life, instead of an accessory. Take a few months off and charter a boat and go sailing around the Caribbean. I'm not kidding. There was a friend of mine I was hanging out with right before I was sent off. She was doing 3X as much as I was (which was next to nothing anyway, normal teen shit). Her parents (I later found out the reasoning because I asked them what their thought process was since both they and my parents were exposed to the same shpiel and sent their kids to the same private school) decided to take the money they would have spent sending her to Straight and instead take the whole family on a sailing trip through the Caribbean. They were responsible on night watch for the family's safety, and that's not something to be taken lightly out there. Seriously, even in something close like Florida Bay, they understood that if you didn't work as a team, you were dead. No argument, no negotiation. But they understood it because IT HAD A POINT It wasn't busy work and they actually learned about life, because it wasn't hidden from them. They weren't isolated from the outside world, They were exposed to and embraced it... They knew this and adapted appropriately. They stopped at islands, volunteering all the way and learning about life and different cultures. They were exposed to alcohol in a responsible (albeit fun)_and sensible manner, instead of approaching it like it was poison. And don't come back and tell me that you can't afford it. Get creative. You don't have to sail the seven seas, go camping for a few months. Backpack across a couple of states. Get involved in your kids' lives. It can be done very cheaply if you're determined.
Seriously, my main point in this......ALL of this is that too many parents are turning over the responsibility of raising their kids tosomeone else. They expect school, or church or the gubment or god forbid Al Anon or whatever brand or form of salvation you choose to tell you how to live your life or what is rign and what is wrong. The reality is, it lies within. No amount of force or coercion will ever give that to you. You can temporarily change someone's behavior, but in order to change someone against their will, you have to break that will. That is NEVER safe or good. The end does NOT justify the means.
**edited to add blue text. I was proofing this, not so successfully, and hit go too soon.
Those are great suggestions, Anne and would work with a great deal of kids/families as an alternative to outside help.
Quote
If I say I'm traumatized, I"m a loser, If I talk about the good things in my life, then I MUST owe it to the program.
These seem to be limitations that you impose on yourself. It doesnt have to be that way, give yourself credit. What you are today is a combination of all of your past, not just the program experience, it includes the things you bring aboard yourself (your effort) along with those external stimuli that was forced upon you. Share how you feel, dont try to disseminate which part of your past is responsible for each feeling and label them. Each feeling doesnt have to be the product of one specific time in your life.
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2007, 01:06:37 PM
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 25, 2007, 01:19:38 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Those are great suggestions, Anne and would work with a great deal of kids/families as an alternative to outside help.
"Outside help" isn't necessary for the vast majority of kids. Those that do require it should be in a clinical setting with licensed, qualified therapists, not some TBS masking as a boarding school.
Quote
If I say I'm traumatized, I"m a loser, If I talk about the good things in my life, then I MUST owe it to the program.
Quote
These seem to be limitations that you impose on yourself. It doesnt have to be that way, give yourself credit. What you are today is a combination of all of your past, not just the program experience, it includes the things you bring aboard yourself (your effort) along with those external stimuli that was forced upon you. Share how you feel, dont try to disseminate which part of your past is responsible for each feeling and label them. Each feeling doesnt have to be the product of one specific time in your life.
Shut up. I don't need, nor did I ask for your advice. I[/b] don't disseminate it, YOU people do. YOU are the only ones who ever say that shit to me.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 25, 2007, 01:22:48 PM
But yeah take your time to grieve and stay positive, good luck...
Post by: TheWho on August 25, 2007, 01:28:13 PM
Quote
"Outside help" isn't necessary for the vast majority of kids. Those that do require it should be in a clinical setting with licensed, qualified therapists,
Agreed, I was lucky enough to have chosen that for my daughter. Although I wish we didn’t have to resort to outside help.
Quote
Shut up. I don't need, nor did I ask for your advice. I don't disseminate it, YOU people do. YOU are the only ones who ever say that shit to me.
I don’t believe I ever said that, but if that was ever implied, show me the link and I will apologize.
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 25, 2007, 01:36:31 PM
Quote
"Outside help" isn't necessary for the vast majority of kids. Those that do require it should be in a clinical setting with licensed, qualified therapists,
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Agreed, I was lucky enough to have chosen that for my daughter. Although I wish we didn’t have to resort to outside help.
Wrong and you know it. You shipped her off to a mindrape mill. I'm talking about hospitalization with actual DOCTORS and REAL therapists, not newage (pronounced like sewage) pseudo-psychobabbling idiots like the ones who run all of Aspen Education.
Quote
Shut up. I don't need, nor did I ask for your advice. I don't disseminate it, YOU people do. YOU are the only ones who ever say that shit to me.
Quote
I don’t believe I ever said that, but if that was ever implied, show me the link and I will apologize.
You hair-splitting ass! You PEOPLE. Program PEOPLE are quite fond of telling anyone who talks about how damaged they are from being in a program that they're whining, a drug addict, need to get over it, are liars and manipulators etc. etc. On the other hand, when we talk about how good our lives are now that we're not under the influence of idiots like you PEOPLE (not you specifically Who, do you get the diffenence now?) tell us that we must owe it to them.
Post by: TheWho on August 25, 2007, 01:36:58 PM
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 25, 2007, 01:39:52 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
TheWho, I just noticed under your name, why do you call yourself a "yuppie sellout"? who did you sell out
Ginger gave him that most appropriate title after reading about what he did to his daughter.
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2007, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
So... Who... what program did you go to?? Inquiring minds wish to know...
Out with it, TheWho!
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2007, 01:58:49 PM
This thread is about a young boy who died from not getting medical treatment, and what are all of us going to do to help this Mom to get the program and its workers made accountable.
No offense to anyone, but lets get serious and try and give some information that can help. :) :exclaim:
The Mom said something about sueing Utah, if it could be done, I am sure there are many who would be very happy to be included.
On Heal they have a petition to shut down Provo Canyon, after reading all the people who had been mistreated and are signing, I think that would be something in the way of showing how many survivors have not been, helped, and parents who have been manipulated through programs.
:idea:
Post by: TheWho on August 25, 2007, 02:03:53 PM
Quote
You hair-splitting ass! You PEOPLE. Program PEOPLE are quite fond of telling anyone who talks about how damaged they are from being in a program that they're whining, a drug addict, need to get over it, are liars and manipulators etc. etc. On the other hand, when we talk about how good our lives are now that we're not under the influence of idiots like you PEOPLE (not you specifically Who, do you get the diffenence now?) tell us that we must owe it to them.
Not everyone is the same. I don’t believe that all kids that attend a TBS are the same or have the same problems. Nor are all the parents the same. Each person is experiencing a unique situation and reacts to it differently.
My daughter was treated by a licensed therapist who reported back to a therapist she was seeing prior to attending ASR, during her entire stay there. If at any time either therapist felt the environment was not healthy for her it would have been noted and she would have been brought home.
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2007, 02:26:53 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2007, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I hope it doesn't
His was a challenging situation for many years. Years of individual and family therapy, behavior modification, probation, JH, EM were all inneffective. His social worker refused to provide behavioral services for him, but threatened to report me to CPS for him abusing my daughter if I didn't get him out of my house.
Yeah I'll be sorry for the rest of my life that I sent him there. If I'm lucky, maybe the guilt will kill me.
As for the rest of this statement
oh boy, been there!! Don't want to help but tel you if they dont leave the house you'll lose your other kids etc etc, people really don't realise how little help there is out there, some kids just will NOT behave in any way shape or form and put parents backs against the wall.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 25, 2007, 03:06:29 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""I hope it doesn't
His was a challenging situation for many years. Years of individual and family therapy, behavior modification, probation, JH, EM were all inneffective. His social worker refused to provide behavioral services for him, but threatened to report me to CPS for him abusing my daughter if I didn't get him out of my house.
Yeah I'll be sorry for the rest of my life that I sent him there. If I'm lucky, maybe the guilt will kill me.
As for the rest of this statement
oh boy, been there!! Don't want to help but tel you if they dont leave the house you'll lose your other kids etc etc, people really don't realise how little help there is out there, some kids just will NOT behave in any way shape or form and put parents backs against the wall.
Thank you. It is a serious community problem that is fueling the numbers of kids in RTC, and will continue to do so until these kids get earlier help. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to get them through the school system, which is exactly why I was denied services for my son. In home TBS services should be available for any family who needs them, even if they are white middle class families with autistic children. There is a huge hole in the system for these kids. fortunately parents of kids with autism learn to be really strong, they have to fight for every hour of services they get. Early diganosis and intervention would have helped my boy.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 25, 2007, 03:49:03 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
(http://http://members.shaw.ca/hughjorgan/ThisThreadSucks.jpg)
this thread is about a 14 year old boy who died in a Utah residential treatment program. THAT sucks.
Post by: Che Gookin on August 25, 2007, 06:31:13 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Once again this thread has been taken over with arguments with The Who,
This thread is about a young boy who died from not getting medical treatment, and what are all of us going to do to help this Mom to get the program and its workers made accountable.
No offense to anyone, but lets get serious and try and give some information that can help. :) :exclaim:
The Mom said something about sueing Utah, if it could be done, I am sure there are many who would be very happy to be included.
On Heal they have a petition to shut down Provo Canyon, after reading all the people who had been mistreated and are signing, I think that would be something in the way of showing how many survivors have not been, helped, and parents who have been manipulated through programs.
:idea:
Good points.
Post by: Karass on August 25, 2007, 07:42:45 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: ""Guest""Quote from: ""Guest""
Then put him in a fucking hospital, not an adult kennel.
:roll:
I did that, twice. After $48,000.00 and several weeks of observation, they gave him the boot and referred him to RTC. Which is my point. There truly is no help out there for extreme situations. Look past yours. When a parent runs out of options, what other option is there? My challenge still has not been answered.
Mom
And my challenge has still not been answered either. I have 3 wonderful kids that my wife and I love very much. One of them has suffered from mental illness since a young age, long before teenage behavior problems surfaced. We have spent way more than $48k trying to get him help. Sometimes he has wanted help and other times he has not.
Programs are not the answer, but it is often true that professional, qualified medical doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists and meds are not the answer either. Sometimes there just is no good answer.
Now he is an adult, trying to make it on his own the best that he can. He is convinced -- and I am starting to be convinced -- that he will never be "ok" with himself or with the world. It sucks that there are no answers, and it sucks even more that there is so little community-based treatment or support that is worth a shit for people who just want to be as "ok" as they can be. It makes no difference what your age is -- teen, young adult or old geezer -- mental health care in the U.S. simply sucks ass, and that's all there is to it.
Desperate parents do stupid things sometimes. But even when they learn their mistakes and try to do smart things -- or nothing at all -- that doesn't necesarily make everything ok.
It's sad that some members of this community continue to beat up parents who really thought they were getting help for their kids, even though they were deceived and taken advantage of by charlatans.
It's even sadder when one of those parents has lost a child to this hideous industry and they get no sympathy whatsoever.
Blame the snake-oil salesman, not the sucker who buys the snake-oil.
Post by: Oz girl on August 25, 2007, 10:45:14 PM
The snake oil that they are really selling is that life is easy for all those "other" people and it can be for you to. This appeals to the lazy and self righteous but also to those who are isolated and in crisis. Everybody looses.
Post by: exhausted on August 26, 2007, 08:33:22 AM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
OMG ain't that the truth, yes those who have troubled kids in any way shape or form are the stronger ones - tose who never had to live with it really ought to before pointing the finger at the parents who are at a junction that leads them to nowhere.
Thank you. It is a serious community problem that is fueling the numbers of kids in RTC, and will continue to do so until these kids get earlier help. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to get them through the school system, which is exactly why I was denied services for my son. In home TBS services should be available for any family who needs them, even if they are white middle class families with autistic children. There is a huge hole in the system for these kids. fortunately parents of kids with autism learn to be really strong, they have to fight for every hour of services they get. Early diganosis and intervention would have helped my boy.
I fought for years personally to get help, oh yes I got it in the end, now that my son is 14 next month, he has been diagosed with ADHD, Depression, cognitive behaviour disorder, slight low scale ebnd autism and many other problems! Al the ones I picked up on when he was 5 or 6 years old - would anyone listen to me? The mother? The expert on this person? No - they al knew best, I was just a drama queen mum, right o.......k so now what? Oh yer he's filled with Ritolin with NO back up therapy as there is no money to support that, social services were involved after a long hard battle to get someone to listen, that's short lived, they've decided to withdraw their 'support' for what it was worth after a few short months because they believe I am strong, I've coped all these years
BOLOCKS, I have not coped, I have let my children down because I did not know what to do! I didn't know what was wrong or how to help them, I have a little more insight nowadays but I stil don't cope well, I just cope better than I did.......where is the prevention for children who are getting out of control, where is the help? There is none, something bad has to happen first
Read the Jamie Bulger story and find out exactly what happens to children who need help, they only get it after they have killed or are in jail :flame:
Post by: exhausted on August 26, 2007, 08:37:42 AM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
Agreed.....Why don't all the kids and parents who have been sucked in, or appointed by the courts for children to be taken into abusive programs sue the government, for allowing them to practise in the 1st place, to allow the law to send them there and for compensation, let them in turn counter sue the county who can counter sue the programQuote from: ""Guest""Once again this thread has been taken over with arguments with The Who,
This thread is about a young boy who died from not getting medical treatment, and what are all of us going to do to help this Mom to get the program and its workers made accountable.
No offense to anyone, but lets get serious and try and give some information that can help. :) :exclaim:
The Mom said something about sueing Utah, if it could be done, I am sure there are many who would be very happy to be included.
On Heal they have a petition to shut down Provo Canyon, after reading all the people who had been mistreated and are signing, I think that would be something in the way of showing how many survivors have not been, helped, and parents who have been manipulated through programs.
:idea:
Good points.
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2007, 12:43:46 PM
In this particular case: it will be ruled medical negligence and charges will be filed - or, it won't. Hopefully, there was a completely un-biased investigation which will reveal exactly what happened to this boy; and why he was not taken to the emergency room / hospital for treatment.
It matters not WHY this boy was enrolled into this program in the first place.
It appears that this child died because he was not taken to the hospital for emergency medical treatment; and it appears that he probably would be alive today, if he had been taken to the hospital.
Bashing this mother about a decision she made: enrolling her son in this program, helps nothing.
On-the-other-hand: the mother discussing every detail of her family's history, including her daughter, really does very little in holding this program accountable, either.
This issue seems to be that children are denied necessary medical attention in these facilities. This is negligence!
Children in these facilities are viewed as "manipulative liars" and their health issues are ignored; and children suffer; and at times they die.
That is the issue, here.
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2007, 01:13:26 PM
Guest wrote:
Once again this thread has been taken over with arguments with The Who,
This thread is about a young boy who died from not getting medical treatment, and what are all of us going to do to help this Mom to get the program and its workers made accountable.
No offense to anyone, but lets get serious and try and give some information that can help.
This is positive thinking, and helpful to a Mom who is (like the kids who go into these programs) already hurting inside.........
The Mom said something about sueing Utah, if it could be done, I am sure there are many who would be very happy to be included.
I so wanted to sue the state of Utah. My attorney said it couldn't be done. I believe a Class Action Suit is just what needs to happen.
On Heal they have a petition to shut down Provo Canyon, after reading all the people who had been mistreated and are signing, I think that would be something in the way of showing how many survivors have not been, helped, and parents who have been manipulated through programs.
DHS Director of Licensing, Ken Stettler, informed me that Provo Canyon is where this industry originated. Those who branched off from Provo Canyon are some of the key players. Litchfield is ONE of them.
Agreed.....Why don't all the kids and parents who have been sucked in, or appointed by the courts for children to be taken into abusive programs sue the government, for allowing them to practise in the 1st place, to allow the law to send them there and for compensation, let them in turn counter sue the county who can counter sue the program
LOL..........
You guys are great!!
I'm sad :cry: but glad that I'm not alone in this fight anymore.
P.S.
To the poster who appoligized to Pitbull Mom. This was very BIG of you to do this. I understand your anger all too well. You have every right to be angry! Abusive programs heap pain upon pain and only makes matters worse for the individual.
Catherine Sutton
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 26, 2007, 01:29:35 PM
Quote from: ""campsafety""
P.S.
To the poster who appoligized to Pitbull Mom. This was very BIG of you to do this. I understand your anger all too well. You have every right to be angry! Abusive programs heap pain upon pain and only makes matters worse for the individual.
Catherine Sutton
Thanks. I really did feel awful. Maybe some of my anger towards my own parents came out there too. We're all a little sick and tired of being told to get over it, especially when we're trying to prevent this kind of shit from happening.
I am so sorry for both of you.
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2007, 02:26:56 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
It just doesn't work that way Exhausted, it's that simple.So why can't the government be sued for allowing neglegent and profit making companies to run?
In this particular case: it will be ruled medical negligence and charges will be filed - or, it won't. Hopefully, there was a completely un-biased investigation which will reveal exactly what happened to this boy; and why he was not taken to the emergency room / hospital for treatment.
It matters not WHY this boy was enrolled into this program in the first place.
It appears that this child died because he was not taken to the hospital for emergency medical treatment; and it appears that he probably would be alive today, if he had been taken to the hospital.
Bashing this mother about a decision she made: enrolling her son in this program, helps nothing.
On-the-other-hand: the mother discussing every detail of her family's history, including her daughter, really does very little in holding this program accountable, either.
This issue seems to be that children are denied necessary medical attention in these facilities. This is negligence!
Children in these facilities are viewed as "manipulative liars" and their health issues are ignored; and children suffer; and at times they die.
That is the issue, here.
Just look at the bigger picture, it only takes one ground breaking big mo fo lawsuit to bust this thing wide open and the floodgates will be opened, parents all over will be suing and quite rightly get the results they want, its often how laws come about, these shitpits would be closed or end up government monitored for ever - governments hate egg on their face
Just one small voice ..............
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 26, 2007, 02:35:49 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""It just doesn't work that way Exhausted, it's that simple.So why can't the government be sued for allowing neglegent and profit making companies to run?
In this particular case: it will be ruled medical negligence and charges will be filed - or, it won't. Hopefully, there was a completely un-biased investigation which will reveal exactly what happened to this boy; and why he was not taken to the emergency room / hospital for treatment.
It matters not WHY this boy was enrolled into this program in the first place.
It appears that this child died because he was not taken to the hospital for emergency medical treatment; and it appears that he probably would be alive today, if he had been taken to the hospital.
Bashing this mother about a decision she made: enrolling her son in this program, helps nothing.
On-the-other-hand: the mother discussing every detail of her family's history, including her daughter, really does very little in holding this program accountable, either.
This issue seems to be that children are denied necessary medical attention in these facilities. This is negligence!
Children in these facilities are viewed as "manipulative liars" and their health issues are ignored; and children suffer; and at times they die.
That is the issue, here.
Just look at the bigger picture, it only takes one ground breaking big mo fo lawsuit to bust this thing wide open and the floodgates will be opened, parents all over will be suing and quite rightly get the results they want, its often how laws come about, these shitpits would be closed or end up government monitored for ever - governments hate egg on their face
Just one small voice ..............
Not really. Miller Newton has been sued over and over again, losing every time. He's got somewhere in the neighborhood of $20+ million in judgments against him. He's now an antioch "priest" currently counseling teens. Before that he just kept moving from state to state and changing the name from Straight to KIDS or Pathway or Growing Together or Alberta Adolescent Recovery Center or, well you get the picture.
Mel Sembler and the Lichfields are campaign finance chairs for Mitt Romney. Sembler has the backing of the Bushes (Bush I named Straight one of his "thousand points of light"). They don;t give a shit.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 26, 2007, 03:31:38 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""campsafety""P.S.
To the poster who appoligized to Pitbull Mom. This was very BIG of you to do this. I understand your anger all too well. You have every right to be angry! Abusive programs heap pain upon pain and only makes matters worse for the individual.
Catherine Sutton
Thanks. I really did feel awful. Maybe some of my anger towards my own parents came out there too. We're all a little sick and tired of being told to get over it, especially when we're trying to prevent this kind of shit from happening.
I am so sorry for both of you.
Thanks Anne and Cathy. I got really pissed off about the masturbating poster who was laughing at my son's death and jerking off. Really shameful behavior for a survivor, IF truly a survivor, more likely a troll, and I fell for it, and I'm sorry for offending any real survivors. I felt bad when I saw how it affected you Anne. I know a little bit about the trauma you and others went through, and I should have been more senstive, and I am truly sorry for your horror. I grew up in an abusive, punitive home with criminally shameful punishments, and severe brainwashing, all in the name of Jesus. That experience has made me somewhat of a paranoid mom, and I thought I was actually suspicious and intelligent enough to find a good school placement for my son. Because I am always painfully aware that my childhood nightmare makes me second guess everything I do, I really thought I had done my due diligence in checking out Youth Care. I read about deaths in teen programs, I chose a non WWASP school, a non-faith based facility, with an accredited educational component, and medical staff onsite, and what appears to be a legitamate therapy program. After my son's medical needs were ignored, i think not. Whether it did or didn't is not the point. Whether I should have kept him home is not the point. The point is to make every single program and every single person who works in them accountable for their actions. They advertise a treatment program, they take money; they need to deliver on their promises, provide real treatment, and return all children home safely if they are going to run a business. Otherwise they need to be shut down.
I shared personal information about my son's case and his history here (it's going to come out in court/media anyway) hoping to get some good contacts and information that will help me in my quest to try to make a difference where I can...get better mental health services in my community for other troubled kids, deter the increasing numbers of kids with out of home placements, and hold Utah and Aspen accountable for my son's death. Aspen Education Group "schools" are exploding in numbers, and not providing what they promote. It's a scary tangled web. I have gotten some really useful info from this forum and others, and gotten really focused on what I need to do. It has also helped me to start to work through my guilt, sadness and frustration about my son's very troubled short life, and get strong enough to take action. Like most parents, I provided a nurturing environment and loved my son for who he was. Sometimes it's just not enough. Parenting is not a cookie cutter job, which the angry teens on this site will discover, I know, I made that journey. I used to judge other parents, I thought all out of control children just on too much sugar. You can't lump every kid or situation into one pot. I am sincere in my belief that people CAN make a difference in this industry, provide better local mental health and family education serivces, and change the tide. But we all have to let go off the past and move forward in order to get anyone to pay attention. Paranoia, black and white thinking, and masterbating jokesters looking for entertainment aren't going to get the job done. I just see too much whining and self pity from some folks, and not enough action. Healing is out there for those who truly want it and are willing to work for it.
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2007, 03:51:58 PM
Quote
I just see too much whining and self pity from some folks, and not enough action. Healing is out there for those who truly want it and are willing to work for it.
I think you will be the spark the lights the fires to change.
This sad pathetic group of survivors needs a strong voice like yours to lead them.
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 26, 2007, 04:00:45 PM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
Thanks Anne and Cathy. I got really pissed off about the masturbating poster who was laughing at my son's death and jerking off. Really shameful behavior for a survivor, IF truly a survivor, more likely a troll, and I fell for it, and I'm sorry for offending any real survivors. I felt bad when I saw how it affected you Anne. I know a little bit about the trauma you and others went through, and I should have been more senstive, and I am truly sorry for your horror. I grew up in an abusive, punitive home with criminally shameful punishments, and severe brainwashing, all in the name of Jesus. That experience has made me somewhat of a paranoid mom, and I thought I was actually suspicious and intelligent enough to find a good school placement for my son. Because I am always painfully aware that my childhood nightmare makes me second guess everything I do, I really thought I had done my due diligence in checking out Youth Care. I read about deaths in teen programs, I chose a non WWASP school, a non-faith based facility, with an accredited educational component, and medical staff onsite, and what appears to be a legitamate therapy program. After my son's medical needs were ignored, i think not. Whether it did or didn't is not the point. Whether I should have kept him home is not the point. The point is to make every single program and every single person who works in them accountable for their actions. They advertise a treatment program, they take money; they need to deliver on their promises, provide real treatment, and return all children home safely if they are going to run a business. Otherwise they need to be shut down.
I shared personal information about my son's case and his history here (it's going to come out in court/media anyway) hoping to get some good contacts and information that will help me in my quest to try to make a difference where I can...get better mental health services in my community for other troubled kids, deter the increasing numbers of kids with out of home placements, and hold Utah and Aspen accountable for my son's death. Aspen Education Group "schools" are exploding in numbers, and not providing what they promote. It's a scary tangled web. I have gotten some really useful info from this forum and others, and gotten really focused on what I need to do. It has also helped me to start to work through my guilt, sadness and frustration about my son's very troubled short life, and get strong enough to take action. Like most parents, I provided a nurturing environment and loved my son for who he was. Sometimes it's just not enough. Parenting is not a cookie cutter job, which the angry teens on this site will discover, I know, I made that journey. I used to judge other parents, I thought all out of control children just on too much sugar. You can't lump every kid or situation into one pot. I am sincere in my belief that people CAN make a difference in this industry, provide better local mental health and family education serivces, and change the tide. But we all have to let go off the past and move forward in order to get anyone to pay attention. Paranoia, black and white thinking, and masterbating jokesters looking for entertainment aren't going to get the job done. I just see too much whining and self pity from some folks, and not enough action. Healing is out there for those who truly want it and are willing to work for it.
Don't feel badly for me, please. I'm fine. I guess certain things really trigger me, well all of us.
I'll be the first one to agree that Fornits isn't always the most cordial of sites (understatement, I know), but as you and many, many others have found, there is a boatload of relevant information here for those who are willing to look for it. This is the only site where survivors are free to say whatever they want without retaliation. We've never had that before. A lot of times it comes out in some incredibly juvenile forms, but hey....we are what they made us, seriously.
I don't like a lot of the idiocy that gets posted here and I've gone my rounds with 'the children' trying to get them to at least tone things down a bit (because, let's face it. Some of the shit that's posted has nothing to do with anger at programs. It's the kiddies posting for shock value and attention), BUT......I would never want to give up the freedom of speech that we have here. That means that yes, sometimes we're going to have to put up with moronic people (The Who) and posts. The most offensive speech is the most important to protect.
Good luck PB Mom. I wish I had some answers for you.
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 26, 2007, 04:02:41 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
QuoteI just see too much whining and self pity from some folks, and not enough action. Healing is out there for those who truly want it and are willing to work for it.
I think you will be the spark the lights the fires to change.
This sad pathetic group of survivors needs a strong voice like yours to lead them.
And those are the very posts that bring out the best in us.
Fuck you, ya bagheaded moron. Internet tough guy hiding behind a keyboard.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2007, 04:09:20 PM
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 26, 2007, 04:17:21 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
...that wasn't sarcasm?
If it was, my detector if obviously in need of repair. Gettin' hard to tell around here lately with all the pro-program anons wandering about.
Apologies.
::dove::
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 26, 2007, 06:08:02 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""Guest""QuoteI just see too much whining and self pity from some folks, and not enough action. Healing is out there for those who truly want it and are willing to work for it.
I think you will be the spark the lights the fires to change.
This sad pathetic group of survivors needs a strong voice like yours to lead them.
And those are the very posts that bring out the best in us.
we are what they made us, seriously.
Fuck you, ya bagheaded moron. Internet tough guy hiding behind a keyboard.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I'm guessing that's not the best you have in you. You are the sum of all of your past experiences, good and bad. You are what you make yourself.
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 26, 2007, 06:12:43 PM
I don't speak or behave the way in the rest of my life the way I do here. That's the beauty of Fornits. I can come here and be a complete asshole and most people get it. If they don't, fuck 'em.
Sorry, I've dealt with so much bullshit from people that think like this (Stepcraft mainly) that I could scream. Fornits allows me that luxury.
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2007, 08:20:31 PM
No child-renditions, even if they brainwash the child to think it's a good idea.
The kids, the parents- none of them seem to know any better, so a law is necessary, then so be it. It's illegal to smoke a cigarette in a restaurant, make it illegal to send children to Utah.
Otherwise fornits fora will exist for decades to come, every few months a new parent who just discovered the evil industry after their child died or injured seriously. See a pattern? This must be cut off at the source, which is the customers who fund this entire industry. Make the transaction illegal.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 26, 2007, 08:33:17 PM
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 26, 2007, 08:41:35 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Part of the problem also is parents not getting the support they need for kids with real problems. The parents who don't have kids with problems but send them away anyway are just sad, but some parents do have kids with problems they can't handle. Programs ain't the answer but the lack of an answer adds to the problem with programs
I agree, but almost hesitate to say so. I think the is a segment of the population that truly needs some kind of help. I think that is reserved for those who have a true, medical problem and that number is pretty miniscule. This 'behavior modification' or 'behavior management' crap is nuts. The vast, and I mean VAST majority of teens have no need for a program. Some kids aren't going to turn out the way you'd like. Some will take more time than you'd like to grow up. Yes, it's all scary, but it's no goddamn different than what we and our parents went through. There are different and yes more prevalent dangers, but if you look at the true stats, teen pregnancies are down, drug use is down or at a later date. There just isn't the doomsday scenario that program people are trying to make people believe there is.
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2007, 08:42:46 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Part of the problem also is parents not getting the support they need for kids with real problems. The parents who don't have kids with problems but send them away anyway are just sad, but some parents do have kids with problems they can't handle. Programs ain't the answer but the lack of an answer adds to the problem with programs
Exactly why private programs should be illegal. Then these parents can lobby their cities to expand their existing community treatment options instead of outsourcing it.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 26, 2007, 08:53:22 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""Part of the problem also is parents not getting the support they need for kids with real problems. The parents who don't have kids with problems but send them away anyway are just sad, but some parents do have kids with problems they can't handle. Programs ain't the answer but the lack of an answer adds to the problem with programs
I agree, but almost hesitate to say so. I think the is a segment of the population that truly needs some kind of help. I think that is reserved for those who have a true, medical problem and that number is pretty miniscule. This 'behavior modification' or 'behavior management' crap is nuts. The vast, and I mean VAST majority of teens have no need for a program. Some kids aren't going to turn out the way you'd like. Some will take more time than you'd like to grow up. Yes, it's all scary, but it's no goddamn different than what we and our parents went through. There are different and yes more prevalent dangers, but if you look at the true stats, teen pregnancies are down, drug use is down or at a later date. There just isn't the doomsday scenario that program people are trying to make people believe there is.
I agree, these days kids get sent away for being over weight, having sex, or having a mind of their own. Least restrictive setting seems to fall on deaf ears these days.
I just wanted to make it clear that some kids/parents do need help that they don't get and turn to programs, where they still don't get help.
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2007, 11:14:10 PM
If one parent did this it would be a criminal act. If a group did this it would be a cult. If a large portion of society does this, it's acceptable. Funny how that works.
Keep going to your support group meetings program parents, try to smash common sense reality back into your pea brains for another week and try to hold back that nagging thought that yes, you are a piece of shit.
Post by: Deborah on August 26, 2007, 11:53:55 PM
Quote
I just don't think his death was program related in exactly the same way some other deaths were, in other words, the "programming" did not cause his bowel infarction, as in Michelle and others' deaths, and probably some of you as well.
Are you certain? I did a brief search, will do more later. Infarction is extremely uncommon in young people, more a condition of the elderly. A total blockage due to constipation is a common cause of infarction.
Have you researched the drugs he was taking to determine if they cause constipation.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pd ... X-6-43.pdf (http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-244X-6-43.pdf)
What was the nature of his diet? Enough fiber- fresh fruit and veggies?
Was he provided enough water? Was wilderness or extensive outside time in extreme heat without adequate water, part of his 'treatment'?
Ian August's drugs certainly played a part in his death, but the program was also negligent in providing him adequate water.
Was he ever denied access to the bathroom when nature called? Yeh, it happens.
Quote
If your voice is being heard so well, why isn't this headline news? why is it so hard for parents to get valid information? Why can't I even find a state by state database of the program deaths? There will be one soon.
I have an extensive list of deaths in Excel dating back to 1980. I'd be happy to share that with you. PM me if you're interested. My list contains more names than Barbe's list, but I'm certain it's not conclusive. Many accounts are never published in the media.
Post by: Anonymous on August 27, 2007, 12:27:29 AM
Explains why it is impossible to come up with an accurate list of children who have died in private facilities.
FYI - this boy is on the memorial.
:(
Post by: Froderik on August 27, 2007, 01:56:06 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Many kids are sent away because their parents get divorced and the parents are bitter and nobody wants the kid, they have enough money to keep them stuffed away, neatly for as many years needed until they turn 18. These upper class child traffickers have somehow morphed this into a socially acceptable activity in the pretense of finishing school, boarding school and other absurd names for private holding camps, gulags or prisons. These are more accurate terms. Prisons for the children of broken families, children who asked too many questions, or had the misfortune of a step-parent who didn't like them. Erased from the family. Yes, it's that easy.
If one parent did this it would be a criminal act. If a group did this it would be a cult. If a large portion of society does this, it's acceptable. Funny how that works.
Keep going to your support group meetings program parents, try to smash common sense reality back into your pea brains for another week and try to hold back that nagging thought that yes, you are a piece of shit.
Good post, my anonymous friend.
Post by: Anonymous on August 27, 2007, 05:16:15 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
The only thing that will stop this bloodbath is a law preventing parents from sending children to the death pit that is Utah.That's sort of where I was coming from with suggesting the constant suing....doesn't it follow that eventually they would become illegal when one law suit afetr the other is won?
No child-renditions, even if they brainwash the child to think it's a good idea.
The kids, the parents- none of them seem to know any better, so a law is necessary, then so be it. It's illegal to smoke a cigarette in a restaurant, make it illegal to send children to Utah.
Otherwise fornits fora will exist for decades to come, every few months a new parent who just discovered the evil industry after their child died or injured seriously. See a pattern? This must be cut off at the source, which is the customers who fund this entire industry. Make the transaction illegal.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 27, 2007, 12:25:12 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""Quote from: ""hanzomon4""Part of the problem also is parents not getting the support they need for kids with real problems. The parents who don't have kids with problems but send them away anyway are just sad, but some parents do have kids with problems they can't handle. Programs ain't the answer but the lack of an answer adds to the problem with programs
I agree, but almost hesitate to say so. I think the is a segment of the population that truly needs some kind of help. I think that is reserved for those who have a true, medical problem and that number is pretty miniscule. This 'behavior modification' or 'behavior management' crap is nuts. The vast, and I mean VAST majority of teens have no need for a program. Some kids aren't going to turn out the way you'd like. Some will take more time than you'd like to grow up. Yes, it's all scary, but it's no goddamn different than what we and our parents went through. There are different and yes more prevalent dangers, but if you look at the true stats, teen pregnancies are down, drug use is down or at a later date. There just isn't the doomsday scenario that program people are trying to make people believe there is.
I agree, these days kids get sent away for being over weight, having sex, or having a mind of their own. Least restrictive setting seems to fall on deaf ears these days.
I just wanted to make it clear that some kids/parents do need help that they don't get and turn to programs, where they still don't get help.
This is all true, and now we are getting down to the real issue why so many parents are turning to the teen industry. When one can get past the "parents don't care about their kids" mentality, and look at the underlying issues, then you start to see a pattern. 10 years ago, the teen industry climate was a little different than it is now, thanks to efforts of people like Cathy Sutton, and all the folks who have shared their abuse. 10 years from now, it will hopefully be different, or non-existent.
Having spent years of heartache trying to get a mentally ill kid through the school system in the least restrictive setting, and resisting drug therapy for my kid, I know something about the school system and special ed. Kids are being diagnosed in exploding numbers with attention deficit and autism spectrum disorders. 10 years ago 1 in 10,000 kids was autistic, today it's 1 in 160. either there is some unknown toxin causing this huge explosion of mental health cases, or kids are being overly dx'd to death. the latter I believe, although there are clearly a lot more bonafide cases of autism spectrum disorders these days, and a lot of research $$ is going into this. Too many people do rely on unqualified "experts" for advice about behaviorial issues. Only psychiatrists and specially trained clinical psychologists are qualified to diagnose mental health disorders. I'm so flippin' angry that my son wasn't diagnosed earlier with autism and provided intervention services that would have helped him, I want to kill someone. Another family's son (bully) is alive only because mine was placed out of home. Once I got a good diagnosis for my son, and learned about autism, his raging behavior suddenly made total sense to me, yet I still had to remove him temporarily from my home. Sadly he won't ever come home again.
There is an excellent book I wish I'd had 10 years ago - School Success for Kids with Asperger's Syndrome. Psychotherapy is not the answer for these kids. My son's IEP was a joke. Being in Special Ed isolated him even further and lowered his self esteem. Inclusion doesn't work for every kid. There are no long mid to long term hospital facilities in my state for high functioning autism, instead hospitals routinely refer kids to Utah I've contacted UCLA psych hospital where we went, and alerted them about my son's death. Most hospitals will not even admit a child with autism for a 24 hold. I suggest any parents with kids with social skills/communication problems read this book as a starting point. There are many excellent books on ASD's. My son's death is a tragic example of not only that sad state of the teen industry, but also the community mental health services. it all comes down to $$$.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 27, 2007, 12:54:49 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Pitbull Mom wroteQuoteI just don't think his death was program related in exactly the same way some other deaths were, in other words, the "programming" did not cause his bowel infarction, as in Michelle and others' deaths, and probably some of you as well.
Are you certain? I did a brief search, will do more later. Infarction is extremely uncommon in young people, more a condition of the elderly. A total blockage due to constipation is a common cause of infarction.
Have you researched the drugs he was taking to determine if they cause constipation.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pd ... X-6-43.pdf (http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-244X-6-43.pdf)
What was the nature of his diet? Enough fiber- fresh fruit and veggies?
Was he provided enough water? Was wilderness or extensive outside time in extreme heat without adequate water, part of his 'treatment'?
Ian August's drugs certainly played a part in his death, but the program was also negligent in providing him adequate water.
Was he ever denied access to the bathroom when nature called? Yeh, it happens.QuoteIf your voice is being heard so well, why isn't this headline news? why is it so hard for parents to get valid information? Why can't I even find a state by state database of the program deaths? There will be one soon.
I have an extensive list of deaths in Excel dating back to 1980. I'd be happy to share that with you. PM me if you're interested. My list contains more names than Barbe's list, but I'm certain it's not conclusive. Many accounts are never published in the media.
Of course I researched the drugs he was on both before and after his death, although I do appreciate your concern. He was hydrated, he was not constipated, he gained weight at Youth Care and ate well, he was not in a wilderness program, he was in a group home, if he was denied use of the bathroom, he would have just peed in the living room. I know, he did it more than once! He was home for the full week before his death, so I know for certain he was healthy 5 days before he died. I grilled the coroner, and got opinions from other doctors, including my son's family doctor. I know many of the deaths are related to the treatment/programming, whatever you want to call it, but this was pure medical neglect. Makes it simpler to make them accountable. It also helps that he was never a recreational drug user, and his frequent labs and autopsy bear that out.
I would love to have your list, thank you, you can email it justiceforbrendan@hotmail.com. I am going to use Barbe's list to get a state by state listing, I'll combine the 2 lists, and also add info, if given, about ASD's. These statistics WILL get published in the media. I wil buy full page ads in the LA and NY Times if I have to.
I'm a mom, not a moron. I'm sure some parents might just roll over, but I'm not one of them. PB mom, remember?
They picked the wrong kid to F--- with I assure you
Post by: Deborah on August 27, 2007, 01:26:42 PM
They sent 5 therapist to work with this family until they were stable, then down to 1. This was over the course of several months. Sounds like it might be prohibitively expensive, but they said the cost for this service was significantly cheaper than putting the boy in an RTC.
Found the story:
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/rtc/3part3.htm (http://www.nyjournalnews.com/rtc/3part3.htm)
(Last in a 3-part series on alternatives to RTCs)
Even with therapists assigned to work with Daniel around-the-clock, and with 5,6,8 there at the same time early on, the cost of his care decreased from as high as $8,890 a month while he was in a residential treatment center to $2,000 to $4,000 when he was at home.
I don't believe it's possible to make lasting changes when the child is isolated and far away from the family. They need to learn to work as unit in their home environment. I would much prefer to see my tax dollars going to wrap-around. The one caveat is they may rely too heavily on psych drugs.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 27, 2007, 03:19:38 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
On wrap around services.
They sent 5 therapist to work with this family until they were stable, then down to 1. This was over the course of several months. Sounds like it might be prohibitively expensive, but they said the cost for this service was significantly cheaper than putting the boy in an RTC.
Found the story:
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/rtc/3part3.htm (http://www.nyjournalnews.com/rtc/3part3.htm)
(Last in a 3-part series on alternatives to RTCs)
Even with therapists assigned to work with Daniel around-the-clock, and with 5,6,8 there at the same time early on, the cost of his care decreased from as high as $8,890 a month while he was in a residential treatment center to $2,000 to $4,000 when he was at home.
I don't believe it's possible to make lasting changes when the child is isolated and far away from the family. They need to learn to work as unit in their home environment. I would much prefer to see my tax dollars going to wrap-around. The one caveat is they may rely too heavily on psych drugs.
Deborah, thanks for the link to this excellent article. I have forwarded the author of this article and several of their news editors - Business, education, health, etc - the news articles about my son's death, and Barbe's page of all the deaths, along with some information about the lack of mental health services, the teen industry, and Utah's negligence. Hopefully there will be some interest, if not I will find it elsewhere.
Post by: exhausted on August 27, 2007, 04:37:42 PM
The fight I've had over the years to demand help, I've paid too many taxes over the years to not get it, only to hit a brick wall every time
When I finally managed to get soem help, I felt like a weight was lifted, it wasn't anyone taking responsibility from me, I just felt a new release of energy and was able to cope with doing this alone, because the support was lingering in the background when I needed it, something I've never experienced in my life
BIG MISTAKE!!
The second things started to turn around, due to the fact that i was coping so much better, the quicker the supports gets withdrawn - lol - I feel like I'm back to square one now, things have changed round here for sure, there's no questioning that, but me, personally, I feel alone again and unable to cope
You're all missing the key point, the support does need to be there, it does, it's crap - but it needs to stay in place until everyone is fully in control of what they are doing and have full understanding of what the family as a unit needs
I was slammed, abused, got every bit of shit you lot could find to throw at me when I came here with my story, but I ploughed on because I had to have that understanding for the sake of my family - just like abusive programs, it's taken the death of a child to listen to what is actually needed - no-one ever fucking listens
Now I feel better, thankyou, rant over :roll:
Post by: Covergaard on August 27, 2007, 04:48:47 PM
It is on its way
Youth Care on Secret prisons for teens (http://http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/Misc_AspenEducation.htm#YouthCare)
but a lot of info is missing. Do they have a parent manual?
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 27, 2007, 05:08:01 PM
Quote from: ""exhausted""
When I first came to Fornits, this was my main beef, the lack of help, there simply isn't anyhting out there, no-one cares, no-one wants to know, they just want to shove your problem (your kid) from one department to anohter
The fight I've had over the years to demand help, I've paid too many taxes over the years to not get it, only to hit a brick wall every time
When I finally managed to get soem help, I felt like a weight was lifted, it wasn't anyone taking responsibility from me, I just felt a new release of energy and was able to cope with doing this alone, because the support was lingering in the background when I needed it, something I've never experienced in my life
BIG MISTAKE!!
I just can't believe that there are that many kids out there for whom the only solution is outside the home. Truly mentally ill kids, maybe but rebellious, crazy, disrespectful, danger-seeking, defiant teenagers? No! If you have a truly mentally ill child, get them medical help.
I'm feeling very torn here. I wouldn't want to presume to tell anyone that their child didn't need 'help', but it just seems like the form of help they're always looking for entails the kids being out of the home. Now, there's a mom who lost her son to a program. She says he was so dangerous that she would have been charged with abuse/neglect of her other child if she did not remove her son from the home. So, I can see where she felt forced into the situation and believed the nice people who told her they'd help her. Then you've got a couple of AA nuts who are convinced there daughter has a 100 % chance of becoming an alcoholic because they both are. She's only drank a couple of times. Their basic complaint is that she's disrespectful. She's already been through Catherine Freer and now mommie dearest is shopping for another happy place for her to go. :roll:
Nothing is going to change until parents really begin to take responsibility for their children and their own parenting skills.
Quote
The second things started to turn around, due to the fact that i was coping so much better, the quicker the supports gets withdrawn - lol - I feel like I'm back to square one now, things have changed round here for sure, there's no questioning that, but me, personally, I feel alone again and unable to cope
Why? What's happened?
Quote
You're all missing the key point, the support does need to be there, it does, it's crap - but it needs to stay in place until everyone is fully in control of what they are doing and have full understanding of what the family as a unit needs
I believe you that it's all crap, but the solution is not outside the home. If you're going to try and reform, regulate or otherwise alter this industry, why not concentrate on the fact that it is the EXTREMELY RARE kid, EXCEEDINGLY RARE kid who needs to be removed and work on programs that keep the kid home. There are already decent ones, from what I'm hearing, like FFT (?). Deb, help me out here.
Quote
I was slammed, abused, got every bit of shit you lot could find to throw at me when I came here with my story, but I ploughed on because I had to have that understanding for the sake of my family - just like abusive programs, it's taken the death of a child to listen to what is actually needed - no-one ever fucking listens
Now I feel better, thankyou, rant over :roll:
Yes, you got slammed, but you did stick with it and found useful information, no? You gained the respect of quite a few people here too because it was important enough to you, as it should be to every parent either considering these places or are already using them. I understand that it's shocking for parents when they're spoken to some of the ways they are here, but christ people; what the hell[/i] do you think these kids went through trapped in taht kind of a world. Sometimes for months or years on end. Yeah, Fornits is rough. Yes, it's full of rage. Yes, there's a lot of shit that crosses normal lines, but we're not dealing with normal people here. We're damaged goods, haven't you heard? :rofl:
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 27, 2007, 05:54:10 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 27, 2007, 06:21:46 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Yer I stuck with it because my kids are more important than how you guys made me feel at the time, I got LOADS of useful information from this site, I learnt more here than I was ever going to learn from the non existent therapists and support networks that I suppose are out there somewhere, I researched, read the links and thanks to the wake up call from Milk (where is he anyways?) I started to realise I was the problem more than anyone (still working on that one - hey a girl finds it hard to realise she aint so perfect)
I just can't believe that there are that many kids out there for whom the only solution is outside the home. Truly mentally ill kids, maybe but rebellious, crazy, disrespectful, danger-seeking, defiant teenagers? No! If you have a truly mentally ill child, get them medical help.
I Wish it was that simple - I've had to go through Government officials who in turn have had to personally scream and rant at the very very limited therapists etc to even get an appointment to find out what's wrong, I now have several diagnosis' for my son, he doesn't just live with ADHD, there are lots of problems that he's suffering with - it is virtually impossible to get help foir any child with any problem.
Yep so he got diagnosed, here child, take Ritolin, no we can't offer any therapy 'cos there no resources, your mum will deal with it - WTF? What do i know abouyt dealing with it? I'm not a fucking psychiatrist!! All I know is what i learn along the way, in an 'oops won't be making that mistake again' kind of learning.
I'm feeling very torn here. I wouldn't want to presume to tell anyone that their child didn't need 'help', but it just seems like the form of help they're always looking for entails the kids being out of the home. Now, there's a mom who lost her son to a program. She says he was so dangerous that she would have been charged with abuse/neglect of her other child if she did not remove her son from the home. So, I can see where she felt forced into the situation and believed the nice people who told her they'd help her.
Same would have happened to me, ha ha I was placed as a neglectful mother because of the way things were in my house (erm, I've been screaming, kicking and banging on every door for the last 8-9 years to try to find out what the fuck is going on here) Helllooooooo is no-one listening? No, okay I've worked THAT MUCH out
Then you've got a couple of AA nuts who are convinced there daughter has a 100 % chance of becoming an alcoholic because they both are. She's only drank a couple of times. Their basic complaint is that she's disrespectful. She's already been through Catherine Freer and now mommie dearest is shopping for another happy place for her to go. :roll:
Yep - the mum is scared, i can see that, with alcoholism being rife through the men in my family i would be too - she needs some reassurance it won't necessarily happen, and if it's going to, it's going to, sending her away isn't going to change a genetic disorder - that much I do see clearly
Nothing is going to change until parents really begin to take responsibility for their children and their own parenting skills.
Agreed, however, some parents are so at their wits end they don't even know where to start looking at what needs changing, it's scary, you've done your best, you've given them everything, where did it all go wrong? And what do you do to change it? (That's where a parent such as myself needs help, I couldn't see the wood for the trees damn, what a mess)QuoteThe second things started to turn around, due to the fact that i was coping so much better, the quicker the supports gets withdrawn - lol - I feel like I'm back to square one now, things have changed round here for sure, there's no questioning that, but me, personally, I feel alone again and unable to cope
Why? What's happened?
I just feel very alone and scared again, that i might mess up because I have no support network (again) how long will it take if I really need it back again? What about the future for my son's if I make one very important life changing mistake? I don't have family, I have no partner and very litte contactwith the outside world, all my time is spent working with my children, I can't take them anywhere to socialise because we always end up getting thrown out of wherever we go, friends who ask me round ask me not to bring my kids, so it's mainly footy in the park, swimming, a b it limited when every club i've joined them up with chucks them out or the boys refuse to go anyway *sigh*
Plus I think i'm suffering with depression :(QuoteYou're all missing the key point, the support does need to be there, it does, it's crap - but it needs to stay in place until everyone is fully in control of what they are doing and have full understanding of what the family as a unit needs
I believe you that it's all crap, but the solution is not outside the home. If you're going to try and reform, regulate or otherwise alter this industry, why not concentrate on the fact that it is the EXTREMELY RARE kid, EXCEEDINGLY RARE kid who needs to be removed and work on programs that keep the kid home. There are already decent ones, from what I'm hearing, like FFT (?). Deb, help me out here.
Again, agreed, hell yer, if you can keep them at home do it, at any cost - even if it does make you want to take your own life at every waking minute, no seriously, the kids should stay home unless they really are a blatant danger to themselves or others, it's normal for teens to get drunk, skip school and basically be a pain in the butt, can anyone here seriously say they didn't do anything their parent's didn't want them to do as teenagers?QuoteI was slammed, abused, got every bit of shit you lot could find to throw at me when I came here with my story, but I ploughed on because I had to have that understanding for the sake of my family - just like abusive programs, it's taken the death of a child to listen to what is actually needed - no-one ever fucking listens
Now I feel better, thankyou, rant over :roll:
Yes, you got slammed, but you did stick with it and found useful information, no? You gained the respect of quite a few people here too because it was important enough to you, as it should be to every parent either considering these places or are already using them. I understand that it's shocking for parents when they're spoken to some of the ways they are here, but christ people; what the hell[/i] do you think these kids went through trapped in taht kind of a world. Sometimes for months or years on end. Yeah, Fornits is rough. Yes, it's full of rage. Yes, there's a lot of shit that crosses normal lines, but we're not dealing with normal people here. We're damaged goods, haven't you heard? :rofl:
I understand about the rage program kids/adults feel, I can't/won't/don't know how to let go of the years I spent in care because everyhting was too much effort for my mother, of course I'm bitter about it, I'll take it to my grave no doubt, but I'm not going to let it eat me alive when I have my own children to worry about - youre not damaged goods, youre a victim of a non listening, non caring, resourceless society, as are the next genration and the one after that and so on, makes me want to puke, lessons just aren't being learned here, what's it going to take hmmm? Exhausted - maybe should change name to worn into the ground, more appropriate me thinks
Post by: Anonymous on August 27, 2007, 06:25:47 PM
- Exhausted, doing a Julie :lol:
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 27, 2007, 06:39:27 PM
That's what I want to get across to the parents who want to run off because we're so mean. If their kid, and finding out what is happening or has happened to him/her is important enough to them, they'll tough it out. Their kid dealt with it 24/7, they can deal with it off and on while reading here.
Post by: Anonymous on August 27, 2007, 06:49:43 PM
Oh boy, poor woman :(
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 28, 2007, 02:20:36 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
On wrap around services.
They sent 5 therapist to work with this family until they were stable, then down to 1. This was over the course of several months. Sounds like it might be prohibitively expensive, but they said the cost for this service was significantly cheaper than putting the boy in an RTC.
Found the story:
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/rtc/3part3.htm (http://www.nyjournalnews.com/rtc/3part3.htm)
(Last in a 3-part series on alternatives to RTCs)
Even with therapists assigned to work with Daniel around-the-clock, and with 5,6,8 there at the same time early on, the cost of his care decreased from as high as $8,890 a month while he was in a residential treatment center to $2,000 to $4,000 when he was at home.
I don't believe it's possible to make lasting changes when the child is isolated and far away from the family. They need to learn to work as unit in their home environment. I would much prefer to see my tax dollars going to wrap-around. The one caveat is they may rely too heavily on psych drugs.
This is a great success story, and is the wave of the future in kids' mental health. This exactly what I attempted to procure for my boy, I was horrified at the thought of an out of home placement, and fought it for years. (I know, I should have kept resisting.) It damned near killed me, poster Exhausted sounds like me for the last 10 years. These services are not really available yet, or are underfunded, unless you have Medi-Cal. I made a pest of myself and got them written into my son's IEP, but never could actually get the services. Wrap around is a great idea whose time has not yet come. Insurance does not cover it. Most parents cannot afford 2 - 4K per month. Mental health agencies bicker over who is going to pay, and the child and their entire family get lost in the shuffle. I offered to pay, if I could just get access to the in home behavior help. I finally got 1 hour per week after I got a crisis intervention service to come in and work out a family safety plan. It was great, but too little too late for us. I attended an "interdisciplinary probation meeting" and listened to a bunch of idiots who didn't know my me or my son talk about the cost to their department if they got hit with paying for his services. This will improve over the next few years. Unfortunately, wrap around services in many counties have not gotten past the initial grant phase. Hollow promises, mostly. The issue with psych drugs in wrap around program is a whole nother story. Many mental health agencies do not even have psychiatrists who are board certified in child psychiatry, dishing out major drugs to very young children. It's scary. Better to find your own qualified quack er psychiatrist, if you go that route and just pay out of pocket.
Post by: Deborah on August 28, 2007, 12:00:50 PM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
Wrap around is a great idea whose time has not yet come. Insurance does not cover it. Most parents cannot afford 2 - 4K per month.
I think it could be done if the parent's intent is to keep their child home and safe from improperly trained/sadistic staff in RTCs. Parents could hand select the professionals they wanted in their homes during the hours all family members are present- those trained in FFT, CBT, autism, etc.
Assess the child's needs in terms of education. A smaller private school may better meet his/her needs, or home schooling.
In terms of cost, why couldn't they afford $2-4000? They pay twice that for some programs. Aspen offers parents 10+ year ammortorized loans to pay for their services. So the parent with the help of their therapist determines how long intense, in-home family therapy will be necessary. Perhaps it's 6 months, maybe a year. At $3000/mo average, that's $36K. Take out a loan. Refinance the house. Use the same options parents use for programs. And you eliminate the risk of your child being abused or neglected. The peace of mind alone, should be worth the effort.
One hour a week is not enough when a family is in crisis. Weekly visits to a therapist's sterile office aren't adequate. Everyone's on their best behavior and issues can't be addressed as they come up as in the home environment. That's why Super Nanny is so effective. She's right there observind interactions. Giving advice and tips. Notice what she accomplishes in just a week. And it's always the parents that have to change to see improvement in the 'bratty' kids behavior. Help has to come to the home. Society has changed with our nuclear families. There was a time that grandparents, aunts, uncles filled this role. Now one must hire people outside the family, and that will come with a cost.
Post by: Anonymous on August 28, 2007, 12:43:17 PM
Quote
Milk (where is he anyways?)
Milk has cast aside his pretense of identity to become Anonymous.
Post by: Anonymous on August 28, 2007, 01:27:19 PM
What do you think of the trend to sell "coaching" as the answer to helping families heal and/or unite? Eg. Zehnder's Coaching Business
Personally, I think it's a crock of shit and worry that parents who buy into this are exposing their child to another form of child exploitation to say nothing about the potential to do more damage than good.
When does it stop?
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 28, 2007, 01:32:10 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
When does it stop?
When people stop relying on a pill or a book or a person to save them. Life coaching is a bunch of Newage bullshit. People are looking for an answer from outside themselves. They won't find it.
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 28, 2007, 01:35:04 PM
Post by: Deborah on August 28, 2007, 02:06:15 PM
The 'coaching' fad came out of est/Lifespring. Many people go through that fucked up system and think they are qualified to help other people. They take a little further training, get certified (or not) and then charge to be someone's cheerleader. It could happen that the person is actually useful, and they could be a complete moron giving bad advice. I think for the most part they work like seminar leaders. Reminding their paying clients of the tenants of est/Lifespring... there are no accidents, you are at cause in your life, you are responsible for every horrible thing that happens to you, etc.... you know the drill.
Now, in terms of WrapAround, or what I would call, Home-Based Therapy (HBT).... there might be coaches. People with associates or bachelor level education/experience. You don't need a PhD there at all times, providing basic techniqes, tips and reminders. Real simple to learn respectful techniques and teach them. That could also bring the cost of HBT down.
And, if the family is in total crisis, (as in Daniel's case) you may need 5 qualified therapist for a while, then the 'coaches' could fill most of those positions. At all times there should be a licensed therapist present to provide immediate counseling during melt downs.
So, the licensed therapist would not have an office per se. S/he would work in clients' homes with a team of 'coaches' to assist. Therapists need to get out of their cushy offices and into homes. Get their hands dirty. Really make a difference. You can't see abuse, neglect, stupidity if you're not in the home. You can't trust clients to be forthcoming about what's happening. Without knowing the truth, any therapy is a waste of time.
They need to STOP making referrals to RTCs.
When a home was stable enough that the 'coaches' could handle things, the therapist could move to the next family. No reason the therapist couldn't also work with multiple families if there wasn't a crisis. Might have multiple teams of 'coaches'. Nothing is accomplished with people laying on coaches analyzing their childhoods for years, or writing contracts that none of the parties will be able to adhere to without extensive therapy. "Just Do It" doesn't apply to ignorance or emotional distress.
Post by: Anonymous on August 28, 2007, 05:07:27 PM
I hear ya about peple who have never met the family or seen the home environment just putting their opinion in without knowing anything, that's happened alot recently, i challenge EVERYTHING these people say and the decisions they make, I always ask them "And what do you know about my family? Really? When was the last time you came into my home and saw what's happening?"
They just shrug, we are collateral damage to them :evil:
I don't think it's about looking to a person or a book to turn things around, not at all, it's about looking to someone who can help you as a unit to understand what is going wrong, when you are the centre of the whole dysfunctional mess around you, it's really hard to stand back and see what's going on, someone unbias can see that and help you through
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 28, 2007, 05:21:19 PM
Youth Care's license has been suspended for 90 days. This means they can't take any new clients during this time. Of course they can appeal and ask for an administrative hearing. You can bet I will be there for THAT.
I logged a complaint that this should have been AUTOMATIC after a death.
I could not find out if the staff who were in charge the night my son died are still working there, but that's not public information; I asked them to follow up on this. If/when charges are filed against the caretakers, they won't be able to pass another background check in Utah.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 28, 2007, 05:29:44 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""Guest""When does it stop?
When people stop relying on a pill or a book or a person to save them. Life coaching is a bunch of Newage bullshit. People are looking for an answer from outside themselves. They won't find it.
There is a lot of truth in what you say. But, if you break your leg you go to the doctor for help. If you can't contol your child, for WHATever reason, or they are abusive, you are smarter to ask for help than to keep doing the same crap over that doesn't work. Parents who don't ask for help end up abusing their kids. Parenting does not come with a manual. It's not a cookie cutter job. somone posted about the lack of family support. Look at our society today. What's that old saying about how it takes a village to raise a child. We don't have that today. it takes 2 incomes to pay the rent. Families are fractured, the impact of having an extended family around is a luxury for most. People don't know their neighbors. Kids are exposed to a lot of bad crap, parents do their best to counteract this, but it' not as easy as it looks. Really.
Post by: Anonymous on August 28, 2007, 05:36:32 PM
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 28, 2007, 07:05:45 PM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""Quote from: ""Guest""When does it stop?
When people stop relying on a pill or a book or a person to save them. Life coaching is a bunch of Newage bullshit. People are looking for an answer from outside themselves. They won't find it.
There is a lot of truth in what you say. But, if you break your leg you go to the doctor for help. If you can't contol your child, for WHATever reason, or they are abusive, you are smarter to ask for help than to keep doing the same crap over that doesn't work. Parents who don't ask for help end up abusing their kids. Parenting does not come with a manual. It's not a cookie cutter job. somone posted about the lack of family support. Look at our society today. What's that old saying about how it takes a village to raise a child. We don't have that today. it takes 2 incomes to pay the rent. Families are fractured, the impact of having an extended family around is a luxury for most. People don't know their neighbors. Kids are exposed to a lot of bad crap, parents do their best to counteract this, but it' not as easy as it looks. Really.
Anne, I forgot to say this, and I did not mean to demean what you said at all. You are right on target. People have to look inwards to solve their own problems and not make it someone else's fault or problem, and if you are doing this, kudos to you. I tried to teach my son this, when he was obsessed with revenge for his bulliers. Some of us have more or less fortitude than others and need differeing amounts of help. I applaud you for taking responsibility for your self instead of relying on a pill or a book or another person, and sticking up for your opinion. I have to work through my own grief, there is no magic pill or book to make it all better. At times I reach out for help. A couple of weeks ago, I truly wanted to die, I was overwhelmed with grief about my son and could see no hope for the future. Seeing other people going on with their lives as if nothing happened was torturing me. Having to respond to friendly conversation with a nice clerk at the grocery store would make me burst into tears, and I'm normally not that emotional. Life without my son seemed seemed so unfair that I did not want to go on. I figured out a plan to kill myself so that my daughter would think it was not a suicide, but an accident. I knew it was wrong, but I felt hopelessly overwhelmed with grief. I called a friend and my grief counselor, and worked through it. I've had 2 weeks of feeling reallly strong emotionally and physically, and I know this will not happen again. Without reaching out for help and getting some coaching, I'd be dead, and my daughter would have lost her only remaining family. Usually I'm way tougher than that, but sometimes we just need that connection to another person. One day, I was feeling really low, and out of the blue, Cathy Sutton called me to see how I was doing. Just hearing her voice, having that connection with another mom with the same sense of loss, and knowing that someone cared turned my whole day around.
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 28, 2007, 07:34:29 PM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""Quote from: ""Guest""When does it stop?
When people stop relying on a pill or a book or a person to save them. Life coaching is a bunch of Newage bullshit. People are looking for an answer from outside themselves. They won't find it.
There is a lot of truth in what you say. But, if you break your leg you go to the doctor for help. If you can't contol your child, for WHATever reason, or they are abusive, you are smarter to ask for help than to keep doing the same crap over that doesn't work. Parents who don't ask for help end up abusing their kids. Parenting does not come with a manual. It's not a cookie cutter job. somone posted about the lack of family support. Look at our society today. What's that old saying about how it takes a village to raise a child. We don't have that today. it takes 2 incomes to pay the rent. Families are fractured, the impact of having an extended family around is a luxury for most. People don't know their neighbors. Kids are exposed to a lot of bad crap, parents do their best to counteract this, but it' not as easy as it looks. Really.
Anne, I forgot to say this, and I did not mean to demean what you said at all. You are right on target. People have to look inwards to solve their own problems and not make it someone else's fault or problem, and if you are doing this, kudos to you. I tried to teach my son this, when he was obsessed with revenge for his bulliers. Some of us have more or less fortitude than others and need differeing amounts of help. I applaud you for taking responsibility for your self instead of relying on a pill or a book or another person, and sticking up for your opinion. I have to work through my own grief, there is no magic pill or book to make it all better. At times I reach out for help. A couple of weeks ago, I truly wanted to die, I was overwhelmed with grief about my son and could see no hope for the future. Seeing other people going on with their lives as if nothing happened was torturing me. Having to respond to friendly conversation with a nice clerk at the grocery store would make me burst into tears, and I'm normally not that emotional. Life without my son seemed seemed so unfair that I did not want to go on. I figured out a plan to kill myself so that my daughter would think it was not a suicide, but an accident. I knew it was wrong, but I felt hopelessly overwhelmed with grief. I called a friend and my grief counselor, and worked through it. I've had 2 weeks of feeling reallly strong emotionally and physically, and I know this will not happen again. Without reaching out for help and getting some coaching, I'd be dead, and my daughter would have lost her only remaining family. Usually I'm way tougher than that, but sometimes we just need that connection to another person. One day, I was feeling really low, and out of the blue, Cathy Sutton called me to see how I was doing. Just hearing her voice, having that connection with another mom with the same sense of loss, and knowing that someone cared turned my whole day around.
Of course. I wouldn't ever suggest not seeking help. It's the type of help that I question (not necessarily you PBMom). Taking what you say at face value regarding the dangers of the situation, CPS threatening you with abuse of your other child if you did not remove your son, I can understand how you felt hopeless and backed into a corner.
The type of help you reached out for and received is what I'm talking about. I'm reading Deb's postings on the 'wrap around' therapy with cautious optimism. It's forced incarceration, coerced or forced 'therapy', unproven methods, unqualified staff and the rest that goes with it. I'm also talking about this burgeoning field called 'life coaching'. What a bunch of bullshit that is. People who need help, need real help, not quacks charging to be you or your child's friend.
Raising kids aint' for sissies. It sucks sometimes. They terrify us. They push boundaries, are dangerously impulsive. They're angry, defiant, moody, rebellious and bullheaded. That's their job, quite literally. It is a huge part of their development and parents are freaking out when Janie gets a body and a mind of her own. (Again, not you PBMom, there are a few Stepcraft parents around) I've lived what happens when you interrupt that process when I was snatched up 20 some years ago. I've also lived through being terrified that I'd end up identifying my daughter's body in the morgue. Now, I've lived through seeing her learn for herself, realize things on her own. I relish when she tells me, 'damn Mom, I shoulda listened to you in the first place'. The reason I get that, the reason why she and her sister come to me with things most kids wouldn't dream of talking to their parents about is because I don't expect them to follow some plan I've made for them. I've always treated them with respect for their individuality and their own thoughts. That doesn't mean I don't speak my mind, but I understand my limitations. I understand that if I force something on her before she's ready it won't do any good and I'll lose her trust.
Kids aren't supposed to grow up to be miniature versions of us. They're not supposed to grow up according to what we want. They're supposed to find their own way, with guidance and support, not control and force.
There are other options for parents who invest enough time and $$ to be creative, to find a unique solution for their unique family. If these parents have enough money to spend on programs, they could take a few months off work and go on an RV road trip with the whole family. Deb said in a thread somewehre else that we used to have extended family to help with raising kids. Lean on them if you ahve them. See if Janie can go and stay with Aunt Denise two states away.
That's what I mean when I say people are looking for someone else to fix their problems. I would never tell someone not to reach out for help if they need it.
Post by: Anonymous on August 28, 2007, 07:43:11 PM
want better procedures for medical evaluation put in place.
Post by: Anonymous on August 28, 2007, 07:43:35 PM
But hey, it sounds good! Why it might even sell a few books.
Bottom line - it takes parents to raise a kid.
Be a parent.
Stop looking for ways to outsource your child's needs and wants.
Get them the very best "help" you can that keeps them in or very close to the home.
Don't dump them in a $50k orphange like these god-damned youth homes that are raking in millions babysitting your kid.
:flame:
Post by: Deborah on August 28, 2007, 08:16:49 PM
I can't image a child who wouldn't benefit from having aunts, uncles, cousins, grands, family friends close enough to be family; in their lives on a daily basis. If you haven't had it, hard to imagine.
Parenting was never intended to be a job done in isolation by the parents only. Now days, there's frequently only one. Kids spend the majority of their waking hours with people who have no vested interest in their happiness or well-being.
Post by: Anonymous on August 28, 2007, 09:14:54 PM
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 29, 2007, 08:08:10 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
This crap that it takes a village to raise a kid is just that -- crap.
But hey, it sounds good! Why it might even sell a few books.
Bottom line - it takes parents to raise a kid.
Be a parent.
Stop looking for ways to outsource your child's needs and wants.
Get them the very best "help" you can that keeps them in or very close to the home.
Don't dump them in a $50k orphange like these god-damned youth homes that are raking in millions babysitting your kid.
:flame:
I don't know if that was directed at my posts or anons, but I agree with you. No, it doesn't take a village, but family helps. That's my only point. For parents to quit looking to strangers to fix their kid or family.
Post by: Anonymous on August 29, 2007, 09:28:27 AM
Thos eof you who have a family to turn to canot begin to imagine what its like doing this alone, no-one to share the grief or the happy times with, no-one to say well why don't we go do this together? as a family? It's lonely as hell and does affect your parenting as you are stuck in the deep of it all without any outside views on whats happening.
Post by: TheWho on August 29, 2007, 09:48:33 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
This crap that it takes a village to raise a kid is just that -- crap.
But hey, it sounds good! Why it might even sell a few books.
Bottom line - it takes parents to raise a kid.
Be a parent.
Stop looking for ways to outsource your child's needs and wants.
Get them the very best "help" you can that keeps them in or very close to the home.
Don't dump them in a $50k orphange like these god-damned youth homes that are raking in millions babysitting your kid.
:flame:
First off, I don’t think the saying “It takes a whole village to raise a childâ€
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 29, 2007, 12:06:32 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
"It Takes a Village" was around long before Clinton co-oped and bastardized it. I think it's valid, but not when the government is the 'village'.
I can't image a child who wouldn't benefit from having aunts, uncles, cousins, grands, family friends close enough to be family; in their lives on a daily basis. If you haven't had it, hard to imagine.
Parenting was never intended to be a job done in isolation by the parents only. Now days, there's frequently only one. Kids spend the majority of their waking hours with people who have no vested interest in their happiness or well-being.
I did not mean that the government should be part of the village. but that the "village", or network of family support, is really necessary when raising a child with special needs or challenges. it's a big part of the problem why there are so many troubled families today. some of us don't have that and have to turn to community resources. Shit happens. People need help. Last year, my husband was in the hospital for 6 months before he died. Self employed, no disability insurance. I was working full time and had 2 kids, as well as a dying mother. I had little family support, none locally. An old friend from college drove cross country round trip 5 times in 6 months to help me with my kids. I had very limited options. I had to learn how to be a caretaker for a disabled husband, my credit got trashed, I lost my job. Wrap around services are supposed to help fill in that void of not having a family network. not looking for a pity party here, just tyring to provide some real world examples of how families can get in serious trouble. Stuff like this happens all the time. I'm not saying there aren't some jerky parents out there who slough off their kids, but from my own experience, they are in the minority. there are many troubled families that have been hard by unemployment, illnesses, death, disabilities. We can aruge about personal responsiblity all we want, but the bottom line is people need some freakin' help. Some clever folks in Utah have figured out how to cash in on that.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 29, 2007, 12:08:56 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I am wondering if you want Youthcare to be shut down, or do you
want better procedures for medical evaluation put in place.
Yes to the 1st question. If that can't happen, yes to the 2nd question. Can't just sit around on our butts, have to do SOMEthing.
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 29, 2007, 12:22:35 PM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
I did not mean that the government should be part of the village. but that the "village", or network of family support, is really necessary when raising a child with special needs or challenges. it's a big part of the problem why there are so many troubled families today. some of us don't have that and have to turn to community resources. Shit happens. People need help. Last year, my husband was in the hospital for 6 months before he died. Self employed, no disability insurance. I was working full time and had 2 kids, as well as a dying mother. I had little family support, none locally. An old friend from college drove cross country round trip 5 times in 6 months to help me with my kids. I had very limited options. I had to learn how to be a caretaker for a disabled husband, my credit got trashed, I lost my job. Wrap around services are supposed to help fill in that void of not having a family network. not looking for a pity party here, just tyring to provide some real world examples of how families can get in serious trouble. Stuff like this happens all the time. I'm not saying there aren't some jerky parents out there who slough off their kids, but from my own experience, they are in the minority. there are many troubled families that have been hard by unemployment, illnesses, death, disabilities. We can aruge about personal responsiblity all we want, but the bottom line is people need some freakin' help. Some clever folks in Utah have figured out how to cash in on that.
I think your situation is a bit extraordinary PBMom. You appear to be in the extreme minority of people who are being forced to place your child outside the home. By forced I mean that you were threatened with charges of abusing your daughter if you didn't remove your son. Not because you 'felt' forced. You actually were. Those situations are exceedingly rare. Yes, people get hit every day with tragedies, accidents and other hardships. That doesn't mean it's OK or necessary to place a child outside the home.
I've met many parents who would have sworn that they weren't "that type" to look for someone else to fix their problems, but when they stepped back and looked at the reality of the situation, they got it and finally admitted it to themselves. It's a difficult thing to do, admit that you failed. Guilt kept them from seeing that for years. They would convince themselves that they were just 'doing what was best for my child'. Just like my dad said and insisted for about 20 years. He's only just now taking the blinders off and looking at my experience at Straight for what it was. A nightmare. Up until a few years ago he was still insisting that he had no choice, that he was petrified for my life. He now understands that he got caught up in all the Drug War band wagon and allowed Straight to convince him that I was in real danger. He kept believing, even up until a few years ago, that I was going to DIE because I rejected the way Straight taught me to live. I was over 20 years out and he was STILL spouting that bullshit.
Guilt will do amazing things to parents.
Post by: Anonymous on August 29, 2007, 03:53:21 PM
Were you placed in a program by force?
If only this industry could understand how harmful their entrapment practices are!! Parents are victims too in some, not all, cases. The programs entrapment practices are NOT helping the family unit, but destroying the trust, if any, between the child and his/her parents when they convince parents to have their child taken away by force. Convincing parents to lie to the child. Tricking him/her. It doesn't take a lot of common sense to know these kinds of entrapment practices would traumatize the child. The anger the child may feel towards his/her parents can last a lifetime.
The industry will SELL their "escort service" to desperate parents. Telling parents it is in the "best-interest" of the child.
I believe the "escort service" I call kidnapping, only serves the program. It's all about power and greed. Get the kid and the money!!
I hope all is well between you and your family.
I am so grateful for the young people like you who are brave enough to tell their stories.
I have been watching this thread when I can be near a computer. I am moving back home this week. I've been keeping up with two households since the birth of my grandbaby last October. Helping my daughter care for this precious little one for the past 11 months. It's called, "don't want her in Day Care!" I'll bet you can guess WHY? Talk about losing trust in people...........
Well, I know that many of you who are following this thread understand that anger is an emotion. Any child (human being) who has survived a punitive program deserves to feel, and express, anger. I believe it is far better to allow the survivors to express their hurt and pain, than to have them hold it in until they burst!
You can call yourselves, "TEEN HURT SURVIVORS!" It wasn't therapy you encountered. It was abuse!
Sincerely,
Catherine Sutton
Post by: Oz girl on August 29, 2007, 05:39:28 PM
This would probably reduce the desire of parents to use programs. Both of my parents worked full time but my family was large and many of my friends families socialised with my parents so there was a strong social support network. i wonder if western societies have become a little insular. As a result every parent who has a difficult teenager imagines the neighbours have the perfect kid and fears judgement when their own child is giving them nightmares. it can become the human eq of keeping up the the joneses
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 29, 2007, 06:25:11 PM
Post by: Pitbull Mom on August 29, 2007, 06:54:35 PM
Many of the kids were cutters, some were other self harm/suicide attempts, substance abuse, a few conduct disorders. I believe my son, at the time, was the the only Aspergers kid. At least in the house he was in. They have 4 houses there.
Insurance companies scrutinize treatment plans pretty closely, and only approve about 3 - 5 days at a time. Many kids get the boot after 90 days when the insurance stops, unless the parent gets school funding under FAPE.
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 29, 2007, 07:18:57 PM
Quote from: ""campsafety""
Anne,
Were you placed in a program by force?
If only this industry could understand how harmful their entrapment practices are!! Parents are victims too in some, not all, cases. The programs entrapment practices are NOT helping the family unit, but destroying the trust, if any, between the child and his/her parents when they convince parents to have their child taken away by force. Convincing parents to lie to the child. Tricking him/her. It doesn't take a lot of common sense to know these kinds of entrapment practices would traumatize the child. The anger the child may feel towards his/her parents can last a lifetime.
The industry will SELL their "escort service" to desperate parents. Telling parents it is in the "best-interest" of the child.
I believe the "escort service" I call kidnapping, only serves the program. It's all about power and greed. Get the kid and the money!!
I hope all is well between you and your family.
I am so grateful for the young people like you who are brave enough to tell their stories.
I have been watching this thread when I can be near a computer. I am moving back home this week. I've been keeping up with two households since the birth of my grandbaby last October. Helping my daughter care for this precious little one for the past 11 months. It's called, "don't want her in Day Care!" I'll bet you can guess WHY? Talk about losing trust in people...........
Well, I know that many of you who are following this thread understand that anger is an emotion. Any child (human being) who has survived a punitive program deserves to feel, and express, anger. I believe it is far better to allow the survivors to express their hurt and pain, than to have them hold it in until they burst!
You can call yourselves, "TEEN HURT SURVIVORS!" It wasn't therapy you encountered. It was abuse!
Sincerely,
Catherine Sutton
Thanks for the kind words, it's a little embarrassing to talk about my pain to someone who's lost a child. I cannot fathom that.
Yes, I was forced into Straight in the early 80's. They told me that if I signed myself in (this was after an 6 hour 'intake' in a small room surrounded by and being berated, shamed and belittled by other kids in program and staffers) I would only have to stay for a 2 week evaluation, but if I didn't my parents would have me court ordered for 2 years (a lie, they couldn't). I ended up there 2 years. The first 8 months were spent on "1st phase", shuffling from 'host home' to host home because I had to earn the "privilege" of returning to my home and my parents. I made it up to 2nd phase and was set back to 1st phase shortly after for some insignificant rule infraction, real or manifested by them. I eventually made it up to 4th phase and someone decided I wasn't "shining" anymore, so therefor I must be dishonest and hiding something. I wasn't and said so. I was tired. I got virtually no sleep day after day after day. Well, that means I'm in denial so the whole group confronted me for a few hours, spitting in my face, calling me a slut, loser, whore, bitch, cunt and whatever else they could hurl in my direction. They started me over and that means started over. I eventually began to 'progress' again and just did whatever I had to to get out.
After I got out it, I was required to go to 'aftercare'. That lasted for about 2 months, and I did something wrong (again, some minor infraction of meaningless rules) and was 'terminated' from the 7th Step Society (the aftercare group). No one was allowed to speak to me from then on. Taht would have been great, but I started dating another 'termination', got pregnant (within 4 months of 'graduating'). I was pressured to either have an abortion or get married. Pressure meaning that Dad followed Straight's advice adn pulled the 'tough love' crap. I got married, had a baby, had another and decided to get a divorce. I ddin't like being slapped around by a cokehead. But....I was (((GASP))) drinking and smoking the occasional joint. My dad and my ex's parents hired lawyers (Dad got one on the board of Straight) and took my kids. Remember, I was trying to get out of an abusive situation, clear my head up, get my life together and when I asked for help I was given the 'tough love' speech. The grandparents couldn't decide who would make the better temp parents, so they split up my girls.
I got them back 3 long years later (it was really difficult being on my own w/ no resources being up against my "dx" from Straight and THEIR lawyers), the grandparents continued to occasionally either take the kids again for some small infraction (like drinking) or threaten to do so. during this time my ex husband had gotten a DUI manslaughter charge, went to prison, got out and joined AA. He, off and on when he wasn't coked out, would clean himself up, go to AA, become the golden boy in the judges eyes (for the simple fact that he was in AA, even though eh was in and out and constantly 'relapsing'). I had a therapist tell me once that I lived in a constant and acute state of fear for almost 20 years. It wasn't until my kids were old enough taht the grandparents and my ex lost power that I really began to heal.
Whew. Sorry if that was long and repetitive for those who already know what happened to me.
Post by: Anonymous on August 29, 2007, 07:26:56 PM
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 29, 2007, 07:57:51 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 29, 2007, 08:08:38 PM
WOW! What a nightmare............
I hope to someday find ALL the horror stories from the survivors of these programs in a data bank somewhere. It just reminds me of the days of Hitler. Many of these programs are run like a concentration camp.
I am so sorry for what you suffered in the hands of these crazy people!
I was raised by a crazy Step-Parent. I understand how it takes a long time to heal from mental abuse. Those of us who have been there understand this.
Take Care. :(
Lost for Words,
Catherine Sutton
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 29, 2007, 08:33:34 PM
it's all just so insidious it makes me crazy. I believe that AA and programs that utilize it's methodology are a huge part of this that most people don't want to look at. I posted in the Straight forum about a friend of mine (ex-friend now). AA took over being the central part of her life when Straight wasn't anymore. She's spent all these years and all this energy 'staying sober' and judging everyone around her who had fallen short of that lofty goal. For what? She's just as screwed up as I ever was, only now she's programming a new generation, her kids. To avoid repetition, if you're interested it's here. Please ignore the childishness between myself and 85 Day Jerk.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22939 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22939)
My dad expected me to follow AA. When I didn't, I was out of the family. I was ordered to attend via a custody hearing. I objected citing religious freedom and was re-ordered. It wasn't until I stopped believing all these people telling me I was 'diseased' and 'addicted' taht I truly began to start healing and getting a healthy outlook on life.
I also started a thread about AA here.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22979 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22979)
It's been a long time coming with plenty of research, reading, talking to people and digging through my own past to come to this realization. For years I thought, well it does help people (I was wrong, other than the social aspect. Sources are cited in the above-linked thread)
/end threadjack, sorry.
Post by: Dr. Miller Newton on August 29, 2007, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: ""campsafety""
Anne Bonney
WOW! What a nightmare............
I hope to someday find ALL the horror stories from the survivors of these programs in a data bank somewhere. It just reminds me of the days of Hitler. Many of these programs are run like a concentration camp.
I am so sorry for what you suffered in the hands of these crazy people!
Oh, PUH-LEEEZE!! :roll:
These manipulative, lying DRUGGIES brought it ALL on themselves!! :flame:
THEY were the ones who CHOSE to do drugs! They PUT THEMSELVES in the program! What else were their parents supposed to do with them, anyway?? Have you ever heard of chemical dependency??? I suggest you read my book, "Gone Way Down," as it describes in horrifying detail the hideous fate that awaits someone stupid enough to think that they can "handle" taking "just one hit" from a joint...
Without Straight, every last one of those goddamn druggie kids would have ended up dead, insane or in jail!!! Yes, Straight SAVED THEIR LIVES, but of course you wouldn't know anything about that, would you? Sure, Straight wasn't perfect -- we HAD to break a few laws along the way -- but it was in the best interest of the families who wanted to DO SOMETHING to help their kids before they ended up KILLING THEMSELVES!!! :flame:
Post by: Anonymous on August 29, 2007, 09:00:55 PM
Quote
The anger the child may feel towards his/her parents can last a lifetime.
Only if the parents live. *chk-clk*
Post by: Anne Bonney on August 29, 2007, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: ""Dr. Miller Newton""
Oh, PUH-LEEEZE!! :roll:
These manipulative, lying DRUGGIES brought it ALL on themselves!! :flame:
THEY were the ones who CHOSE to do drugs! They PUT THEMSELVES in the program! What else were their parents supposed to do with them, anyway?? Have you ever heard of chemical dependency??? I suggest you read my book, "Gone Way Down," as it describes in horrifying detail the hideous fate that awaits someone stupid enough to think that they can "handle" taking "just one hit" from a joint...
Oh, I can 'handle' quite a bit more than that Virg. I came thru your shitpit, didn't I? I suggest you read about yourself in Help At Any Cost. Maia did an excellent jorb capturing your special brand of malignant narcissism.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22979 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=22979)
Quote
Without Straight, every last one of those goddamn druggie kids would have ended up dead, insane or in jail!!! Yes, Straight SAVED THEIR LIVES, but of course you wouldn't know anything about that, would you? Sure, Straight wasn't perfect -- we HAD to break a few laws along the way -- but it was in the best interest of the families who wanted to DO SOMETHING to help their kids before they ended up KILLING THEMSELVES!!! :flame:
Shouldn't I have been dead and gone long ago then?
How's the blood pressure Virg. The last time I saw you, you didn't look so good. :rofl: I'll be by again soon to check up on ya. May even meet w/ one of your peers (Antioch priest) to inform him, with a first hand, eye-witness accounting of your atrocities. How goes the bankruptcy fraud charges, hmm? :rofl:
btw........thanks for the light! A good friend obtained a votive candle and some literature Virg had displayed in his "chapel". We had a good time lighting joints off it the rest of the night.
ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY TO VIRGIL?
(((((((((group of 350 motivating))))))))))
It's about that time again too! :smokin: ::bandit::
Post by: Anonymous on August 30, 2007, 01:59:07 AM
These manipulative, lying DRUGGIES brought it ALL on themselves!!
THEY were the ones who CHOSE to do drugs! They PUT THEMSELVES in the program! What else were their parents supposed to do with them, anyway?? Have you ever heard of chemical dependency??? I suggest you read my book, "Gone Way Down," as it describes in horrifying detail the hideous fate that awaits someone stupid enough to think that they can "handle" taking "just one hit" from a joint...
Without Straight, every last one of those goddamn druggie kids would have ended up dead, insane or in jail!!! Yes, Straight SAVED THEIR LIVES, but of course you wouldn't know anything about that, would you? Sure, Straight wasn't perfect -- we HAD to break a few laws along the way -- but it was in the best interest of the families who wanted to DO SOMETHING to help their kids before they ended up KILLING THEMSELVES!!!
_________________
You sound so angry. Makes me wonder if you came from a troubled family home environment yourself. Perhaps dependency? I can't tell you how many times I heard Steve Cartisano say, "My Mother was a herione addict and my Father abused me." I believe this man felt compelled to control kids as a result of his own troubled childhood. I think controlling others helped Cartisano feel IN control of himself.
Allowing these kids to be accountable for taking drugs is all fine and dandy. But, I don't think it's right to ignor the fact that many of these kids are survivors of an abusive program. Two wrongs can't make things right. Pain upon pain compacts the problem.
Many of the so-called "experts" that are SOLD to desperate parents as highly trained and qualified, are no more qualified than a hobo jumping off a train.
You can rant, rave, and curse all you want. I tend to turn a deaf ear to this kind of behavior. Some people feel this is the only way to get someones attention. I listen to logic and intelligent dialogue.
Straight sounds more like "mind control" than a positive, productive, self help program. You can't make someone change. Long lasting change comes from within. A person has to first recognize they have a problem, then want the change. This is the healthy way.
I don't BUY what you are selling in your above post. Sell this to a weak and desperate parent....................
Without Straight every "Godgiven Kid" may NOT have ended up dead, insane or in jail!!! Yes, Straight may not have saved their lives. Perhaps they would have made it to adulthood fine. But then, maybe you wouldn't know anything about that.
I wonder what laws Straight HAD to break along the way--in the "best interest" of their kids?
ANY program engaged in telling a person HOW TO THINK, FEEL, AND ACT, sounds more like brainwashing.
Speaking of laws. I await the day when the "children" who suffered AND OR died needlessly in these programs are forever remembered as are the people who suffered AND OR were killed by hitler and his followers.
Parent survivor who was sold a "full-time-residential-inpatient-health-care-facility" that turned out to be a "DO or DIE" forced march in Utah's desert sun.
Mother of Michelle
Post by: Dr Fucktard on August 30, 2007, 06:40:05 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You sound so angry. Makes me wonder if you came from a troubled family home environment yourself.
I don't know about that, but Dr. Newton has fought valiantly against the evils of drug addiction for most of his life! Unlike me (and correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Newton), Virgil "just said no" whenever anyone at school would offer him some reefer or a nip from the bottle...
Post by: Antigen on August 30, 2007, 01:01:08 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Mom,
...
Can't have it both ways: "What a wonderful facility that met all my son's needs. Just loved visiting the place, watching my son succed, there. My son loved it there --until he died from medical neligence."
Yes. And consider the impact on the other kids and even the staff who witnessed all of this and the very fact that ignoring a kid in obvious physical distress is SOP in this warped cultish little industry. Ah, the stuff that PTSD nightmares and flashbacks are made of!
Post by: Antigen on August 30, 2007, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Pitbull Mom wroteQuoteI just don't think his death was program related in exactly the same way some other deaths were, in other words, the "programming" did not cause his bowel infarction, as in Michelle and others' deaths, and probably some of you as well.
Are you certain? I did a brief search, will do more later. Infarction is extremely uncommon in young people, more a condition of the elderly. A total blockage due to constipation is a common cause of infarction.
Have you researched the drugs he was taking to determine if they cause constipation.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pd ... X-6-43.pdf (http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-244X-6-43.pdf)
Another possible explanation is the effects of anxiety due to culture shock, lack of privacy or even time to properly clear one's bowels. Seriously. Plenty of people can't do that in a public rest room. Can you imagine going months on end w/o a place or opportunity to comfortably take care of business? Constipation is one of those icky little details about being in a program that you don't hear much about. Who wants to talk about shit, really? It makes us sound like a bunch of whining geriatrics. But it's a fact that many, many program vets report days or weeks w/o a healthy dump. Took me about 3 weeks.
Post by: Anonymous on August 30, 2007, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
Another possible explanation is the effects of anxiety due to culture shock, lack of privacy or even time to properly clear one's bowels. Seriously. Plenty of people can't do that in a public rest room. Can you imagine going months on end w/o a place or opportunity to comfortably take care of business? Constipation is one of those icky little details about being in a program that you don't hear much about. Who wants to talk about shit, really? It makes us sound like a bunch of whining geriatrics. But it's a fact that many, many program vets report days or weeks w/o a healthy dump. Took me about 3 weeks.
I still can't 'go' unless I'm@home.
on a lighter note...
My husband was objecting to 'rapid toiletpaper use'. I got furious* over 'being rationed'... and I toiletpapered the bathroom ::roflmao:: The kids helped me and we had a ball. He got furious about wasting toiletpaper.
Y'all reminded me '1-2-3?'*
Post by: Oz girl on August 30, 2007, 07:13:51 PM
Post by: Anonymous on August 30, 2007, 08:37:13 PM
Its pretty SOP for slave training, no matter how you slice it. Works pretty good too.
If only they'd take it farther with outright elimination control - can not when told no, must when told to do so. They can even call it "discipline" and get it sanctioned :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on August 30, 2007, 08:58:25 PM
Post by: hanzomon4 on August 30, 2007, 09:01:00 PM
And hey this ain't funny, so show some tact.
Post by: Deborah on August 30, 2007, 11:25:57 PM
Excerpt from:
http://nospank.net/chambard.htm (http://nospank.net/chambard.htm)
Post by: Anonymous on August 30, 2007, 11:36:34 PM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
Constipation is one of those icky little details about being in a program that you don't hear much about. Who wants to talk about shit, really? It makes us sound like a bunch of whining geriatrics. But it's a fact that many, many program vets report days or weeks w/o a healthy dump. Took me about 3 weeks.
Like I said once before, only in the very best of programs does a kid have normal shits.
Post by: Nihilanthic on August 31, 2007, 12:30:07 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""Constipation is one of those icky little details about being in a program that you don't hear much about. Who wants to talk about shit, really? It makes us sound like a bunch of whining geriatrics. But it's a fact that many, many program vets report days or weeks w/o a healthy dump. Took me about 3 weeks.
Like I said once before, only in the very best of programs does a kid have normal shits.
Its not a program if its a sane place that offers therapy, doesn't force it, and doesn't force quackery and outright torment along with it, without due process.
There is no such thing as a good program in the first place. You might as well have good rape.
Post by: psy on August 31, 2007, 01:20:43 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Some of the worst experiences I have ever had to endure took place in that facility, but I think the worst ones were when our bathroom privileges were taken away, because either we were "abusing our privileges" by using the restroom too often or we were on code silence (where the whole facility is not to talk at all, for no reason whatsoever). Talking was our only means of communicating, with permission mind you, because ANY form of non-verbal communicating, from nodding your head to smiling was NOT PERMITTED. So when we went on code silence how were we to communicate that we had to use the bathroom? We didn't. We sat there until we were asked if we had to go. Many girls wet themselves. Myself included, on 2 separate occasions. We were denied our right as human beings to use the bathroom. It's humiliating to be a teenager and have to wet yourself in front of all of your peers.
Excerpt from:
http://nospank.net/chambard.htm (http://nospank.net/chambard.htm)
Could being forced to "hold it" possibly cause such an infarction?
Post by: puck on September 01, 2007, 09:03:50 PM
Quote from: ""concernedfriend""
To you "Off topic" folks -Instead of bashing parents or staff of programs, and making assumptioms without facts, when you don't even know what happened, let's focus on realistic changes that can be made at the state and/or federal level to stop the madness of teens dying in treatment.
Anyone with actual useful information or documentaable proof about negligence about the innerworkings of the state of Utah in regards to reform in residential treatmemt programs and why criminal charges are rarely filed, lack of stiffer licensing and enforcement, etc should post this information so that the family can contact the appropriate high level officials and get effective action. These are not "disposable" kids, shame on those who bash the parents for being the problem instead of actively advocating for legislative change. Get a life and get moving and do something responsible....This boys death is tragic, but let's all turn it into something positive for all the other troubled kids out there who have needs for alternative placememts.
A Sad Friend
I worked at Youth Care for 2.5 years as a line staff and also as a 'key' staff. I'm easily identifiable - I was assaulted by a student and required facial reconstruction surgery - and any time I post my old 'friends' who still work there are told to have no contact with me, so I know I'm pushing some serious buttons.
The night I was attacked there were not enough staff on shift, a common occurence at this program. There were two staff assigned to a house with 14 students - I was only there to finish up paperwork from the day shift. The student that attacked me was able to walk away from his group, sneak up behind me, and when I hung up the phone he started swinging. Another student was also able to walk away from his group to come watch.
You want first hand knowledge? I would come in to work in the mornings and watch the graveyard staff unplug their xbox/ps2/dvd players/laptops, hurry and check all the boxes on the log sheets signifying that they checked the students every 15 mins for signs of life (breathing, movement, etc...) and leave. Sometimes the graves were still asleep when I got there (they weren't supposed to sleep). This student was sleeping out of his room which, according to our training, he should have been checked on every 15 mins. If they were checking, how did the student's body proceed through rigor and livor mortis before the staff even noticed he was deceased?
I finally quit in disgust when the student who watched me get assaulted was re-admitted to the programm despite my concerns for my own safety or the safety of others (he had a history of sexually acting out/flashing female students).
Programs in Utah, and I worked in a few until I gave up and moved to adult corrections, rely on a cheap student labor market and the mystique that 'Utah' is a great, safe place. Youth Care is like most other programs - profit driven, not care driven.
I worked with some great staff, I tried to be a good staff. Too bad the administrators can't be more like some of the staff they're fortunate enough to have on the payroll.
Post by: Anonymous on September 01, 2007, 09:10:04 PM
Quote
I was assaulted by a student and required facial reconstruction surgery
PWNED!
(Hey kid, you didn't hit him hard enough! Finish the job next time!)
Post by: hanzomon4 on September 01, 2007, 09:15:26 PM
Post by: Nihilanthic on September 01, 2007, 09:40:25 PM
Sorry but you kind of got what's coming to ya, buddy. Natural consequences an' all. I mean, if you were in the kid's shoes, wtf would you have done?
Exactly.
Whats the statute of limitations in Utah? Why not... uh, do something meaningful? Name more names?
(http://http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5250/doitfaggotbartjg4.jpg)
Post by: TheWho on September 01, 2007, 10:01:25 PM
He might have talked about more that went on or named names, but not any more, I am sure.
Whats your problem?
Post by: Deborah on September 01, 2007, 10:04:07 PM
Quote from: ""puck""
I worked at Youth Care for 2.5 years as a line staff and also as a 'key' staff. I'm easily identifiable - I was assaulted by a student and required facial reconstruction surgery - and any time I post my old 'friends' who still work there are told to have no contact with me, so I know I'm pushing some serious buttons.
The night I was attacked there were not enough staff on shift, a common occurence at this program. There were two staff assigned to a house with 14 students - I was only there to finish up paperwork from the day shift. The student that attacked me was able to walk away from his group, sneak up behind me, and when I hung up the phone he started swinging. Another student was also able to walk away from his group to come watch.
You want first hand knowledge? I would come in to work in the mornings and watch the graveyard staff unplug their xbox/ps2/dvd players/laptops, hurry and check all the boxes on the log sheets signifying that they checked the students every 15 mins for signs of life (breathing, movement, etc...) and leave. Sometimes the graves were still asleep when I got there (they weren't supposed to sleep). This student was sleeping out of his room which, according to our training, he should have been checked on every 15 mins. If they were checking, how did the student's body proceed through rigor and livor mortis before the staff even noticed he was deceased?
I finally quit in disgust when the student who watched me get assaulted was re-admitted to the programm despite my concerns for my own safety or the safety of others (he had a history of sexually acting out/flashing female students).
Programs in Utah, and I worked in a few until I gave up and moved to adult corrections, rely on a cheap student labor market and the mystique that 'Utah' is a great, safe place. Youth Care is like most other programs - profit driven, not care driven.
I worked with some great staff, I tried to be a good staff. Too bad the administrators can't be more like some of the staff they're fortunate enough to have on the payroll.
I understand the chances of anything coming of it are slim, but did it ever cross your mind to file complaints with DHS?
Can you give a staff's perspective on why more reports aren't filed? Would it be career death?
I'm sure you'd be fired from that position, but would it effect future jobs in the industry?
Are staff "in the program" as well?
How many complaints would it take to get the ax?
Someone posted in the Aspen forum that they applied for a teaching position and asked for references. They weren't hired because asking for references demonstrated a lack of "trust".
Har!
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 460#280460 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=280460#280460)
Apparently they want sheeple who will blindly follow their dictates.
Post by: Nihilanthic on September 01, 2007, 10:12:41 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Nihilantic, Why are you yelling at him? Why do you continue to attack peoples religion and sexual preference? Do you consider yourself that perfect? What have you done? You are just sitting on the couch doing nothing, at least he is involved and airing his story. It is because of people like you that no one likes to come here and open up, let people speak.
He might have talked about more that went on or named names, but not any more, I am sure.
Whats your problem?
I've deprogrammed parents to get more kids out than you can probably count without someone helping you, and I've also helped or individually made quite a few web pages that have resulted in a lot of attention being made, some snowballing more than others.
And lots of shit I can't tell you :D
But yeah, fine, have it your way:
(http://http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/5126/gentlemandifoe0.jpg)
Does this particular option of an image consisting of a large-grinning cartoon character striking a pose with accompanied subtitle text extolling the virtues of why said homosexual ruminating upon whether he should or should not undertake the action theretofore discussed suit your particular sense of taste and sensibilities, or should you instead perform fellatio upon me?
Post by: puck on September 02, 2007, 08:01:25 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
QuoteI was assaulted by a student and required facial reconstruction surgery
PWNED!
(Hey kid, you didn't hit him hard enough! Finish the job next time!)
Nice - I'm acutally agreeing that there are problems at places like this, using my personal experiences as an example and you agree with the kid that attacked me? Bring it on bitch. I have no regret or shame about how I conducted myself as a staff, only that I couldn't do more for the students while I was there. I did lodge complaints, both with my supervisors (you can guess how far those went) and with the state AG's office. I also tried contacting the media but no one there was interested in yet another screwed-up program.
I worked my ass off defending the rights of the students and trying to help them and their families and often was in trouble with the admin for it. Past students and families still keep in contact with me so I guess I was doing something right.
And for your info - the kid hit me right after I hung up the phone to make sure his parents could still come in for a Thanksgiving visit the next day.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 08:10:43 AM
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 10:36:32 AM
Quote
And for your info - the kid hit me right after I hung up the phone to make sure his parents could still come in for a Thanksgiving visit the next day.
:lol: Awesome timing! Either he either did it in direct spite of this, or he did it because he never wanted to see those fuckheads again. (And really, why would he?)
And don't give us the "I did all I could" bit. We've heard it before. If you really wanted to help you would have said on that particular phone call that the place is ill-run and the parents would have done well to get him the hell out and, if he actually did have problems beyond a natural hate of his tormentors, to get him some actual help instead. I think that might have been a face-saving measure. :lol:
You really want to do more? Get the parents to start a nice fat lawsuit, similar to the one hammering WWASPS. If you have any contact with former employees get them to bring hidden tape recorders, audio if not video, and Youtube that shit. Contact the General Accountability Office of the federal government, which is doing a major investigation, and send a signed statement of what you saw. Et cetera. You work in real corrections, even if it's in that fucked up state, so you now have some perspective. But if you expect the AG of Utah to do anything, I have some bad fucking news for you.
Although maybe we should just leave the place open so a few more staffers can get their faces imploded. :rofl:
Post by: exhausted on September 02, 2007, 11:46:06 AM
Shame on anyone who attcks someone who is trying to make whatever small difference they can
Niles don't be a jerk, I know you've got more sense than this, you know as well as anyone here that staff, parents and kids are all sucked in and programmed themselves by the industry, stop giving Puck a hard time, it takes serious guts to come on this forum and say you were staff ... some of these kidds would kill you jjust because they can, whether you're staff, parent or an innocent bystander in the street, whether they attended a program or not
You know I love you dude, but please, let's hear his story and learn more from someone who's been on that side of the fence.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 11:51:09 AM
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 11:55:03 AM
Quote from: ""exhausted""
Shame on anyone who attcks someone who is trying to make whatever small difference they can
... some of these kidds would kill you jjust because they can, whether you're staff, parent or an innocent bystander in the street, whether they attended a program or not
You are a fucking idiot, bitch.
Post by: exhausted on September 02, 2007, 11:57:03 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Far from it, but if it makes you happy to think it....ok :wink:Quote from: ""exhausted""
Shame on anyone who attcks someone who is trying to make whatever small difference they can
... some of these kidds would kill you jjust because they can, whether you're staff, parent or an innocent bystander in the street, whether they attended a program or not
You are a fucking idiot, bitch.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 11:57:48 AM
Quote from: ""puck""
I worked at Youth Care for 2.5 years as a line staff and also as a 'key' staff. I'm easily identifiable - I was assaulted by a student and required facial reconstruction surgery - and any time I post my old 'friends' who still work there are told to have no contact with me, so I know I'm pushing some serious buttons.
The night I was attacked there were not enough staff on shift, a common occurence at this program. There were two staff assigned to a house with 14 students - I was only there to finish up paperwork from the day shift. The student that attacked me was able to walk away from his group, sneak up behind me, and when I hung up the phone he started swinging. Another student was also able to walk away from his group to come watch.
You want first hand knowledge? I would come in to work in the mornings and watch the graveyard staff unplug their xbox/ps2/dvd players/laptops, hurry and check all the boxes on the log sheets signifying that they checked the students every 15 mins for signs of life (breathing, movement, etc...) and leave. Sometimes the graves were still asleep when I got there (they weren't supposed to sleep). This student was sleeping out of his room which, according to our training, he should have been checked on every 15 mins. If they were checking, how did the student's body proceed through rigor and livor mortis before the staff even noticed he was deceased?
I finally quit in disgust when the student who watched me get assaulted was re-admitted to the programm despite my concerns for my own safety or the safety of others (he had a history of sexually acting out/flashing female students).
Programs in Utah, and I worked in a few until I gave up and moved to adult corrections, rely on a cheap student labor market and the mystique that 'Utah' is a great, safe place. Youth Care is like most other programs - profit driven, not care driven.
I worked with some great staff, I tried to be a good staff. Too bad the administrators can't be more like some of the staff they're fortunate enough to have on the payroll.
:rofl: :rofl:
You ugly motherfucker, you got exactly what you deserved.
:rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 12:04:42 PM
Quote from: ""puck""
Nice - I'm acutally agreeing that there are problems at places like this, using my personal experiences as an example and you agree with the kid that attacked me?
The kid should have got more help and fucked you up bad.
Quote
And for your info - the kid hit me right after I hung up the phone to make sure his parents could still come in for a Thanksgiving visit the next day.
:rofl:
Did you expect a thank you, bitch?
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 12:28:18 PM
Quote
I gave up and moved to adult corrections
Once a loser, always a loser.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 06:54:44 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
QuoteI gave up and moved to adult corrections
Once a loser, always a loser.
At least he moved up to people who can hit back, not only that, but are probably bigger, stronger, scarier (Than him) AND form gangs and shit.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 06:56:07 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Yep. Tsw is ex-staff who even admitted to abusing kids, and everyone seems to embrace him. Let this staff member talk.
a) TSW is fucking hilarious
b) TSW doesn't BAWWWWW that he got beat up by a victim of a program
c) TSW fucks korean women all fucking day long. GOD DAMN.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 07:25:48 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 07:40:56 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 08:46:49 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Yep. Tsw is ex-staff who even admitted to abusing kids, and everyone seems to embrace him. Let this staff member talk.
a) TSW is fucking hilarious
b) TSW doesn't BAWWWWW that he got beat up by a victim of a program
c) TSW fucks korean women all fucking day long. GOD DAMN.
TSW has his own little mini cult. When he behaves like a dick everyone just laughs in a pavlovian fashion.
To Puck. When you left the school did you contact the kids parents to tell them of your concerns?
Post by: exhausted on September 02, 2007, 09:00:01 PM
i think alot of staff go in trying to make a difference to these kids only to have the system stop them from doing so, then there are the jerks who just want that power trip
Let Puck speak, he deserves a chance before you decide which he is.
Post by: Anonymous on September 02, 2007, 09:47:34 PM
Are we calling robo-puck out for working in a program and not busting kids out, and riding his ass and telling him to do a barrel roll? Yeah.
Seriously, you'd think someone with Titanium face plates could handle a little more before BAWWWWWing like this :rofl:
Post by: hanzomon4 on September 02, 2007, 10:14:28 PM
wait :o
Post by: Che Gookin on September 03, 2007, 05:47:18 AM
Post by: puck on September 03, 2007, 08:15:16 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Is anyone stopping Puck? No.
Are we calling robo-puck out for working in a program and not busting kids out, and riding his ass and telling him to do a barrel roll? Yeah.
Seriously, you'd think someone with Titanium face plates could handle a little more before BAWWWWWing like this :rofl:
Mate, I can handle anything you want to throw at me. I'll answer any question you have and take any cirticism you have too. As for not busting the kids outta there - yeah, I want to go to prison for kidnapping. I did express concerns to parents at times and usually got a polite thank you - why should they take me seriously? I was just a line staff, not one of the god-like therapists.
So bring it on - either in this forum so you can show everyone how clever you think you are or send me private message with serious questions and I'll answer them there.
As for why the student hit me? I had held him accountable for his behavior (making threats against staff and students) and dropped his level, so he attacked me. His parents got him out of the state before his preliminary hearing and now he's sitting in CYA custody on attempted homicide charges. I guess he has an anger problem.
Post by: Anonymous on September 03, 2007, 09:52:25 AM
Quote from: ""puck""
I was just a line staff, not one of the god-like therapists.
Quote
I had held him accountable for his behavior (making threats against staff and students) and dropped his level, so he attacked me.
And you were doing so well before. Future trolls: Check for consistency next time!
Damn. Now what am I going to do with these accumulated face puns?
Post by: Pitbull Mom on September 04, 2007, 07:01:28 PM
the news media is FINALLY reporting that Youth Care MAY lose their license, although it was actually suspended last week for 90 days. The kids that are there stay, but no new intakes. something at least. Of course the parents of the kids who are still there still don't know what really happened when they let a boy die there.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1730827 (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1730827)
Post by: Anonymous on September 04, 2007, 07:26:26 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Yep. Tsw is ex-staff who even admitted to abusing kids, and everyone seems to embrace him. Let this staff member talk.
Maybe a few disturbed followers, but certainly not everyone.
Quote
a) TSW is fucking hilarious
b) TSW doesn't BAWWWWW that he got beat up by a victim of a program
c) TSW fucks korean women all fucking day long. GOD DAMN.
TSW thinks he's hilarious. He's wrong. Mildly amusing, maybe. Mostly obnoxious.
As for Puck, he can suck it up just like the rest of them. The kids went through hell compared to what gets tossed at him here. If he can't take it, fuck him.
Post by: TheWho on September 04, 2007, 07:48:14 PM
Quote
….Of course the parents of the kids who are still there still don't know what really happened when they let a boy die there.
It wouldn’t be expected to notify the parents of the other children unless the problem could not be contained or brought under control within a short period of time. It appears they are reviewing their procedures and working with the appropriate state agencies at this time. So there seems to be sufficient visability.
Post by: Deborah on September 04, 2007, 07:57:40 PM
August 31st, 2007 @ 5:32pm
(KSL News) A Draper center for troubled youth could have its license suspended because staff did not follow policy the night a boy died there.
A Youth Care counselor found the 14-year-old California boy dead on the morning of June 28. Authorities say he'd been sick with stomach flu-like symptoms.
A spokesperson for the state's human services department said today Youth Care staff did not contact an on-call nurse the night the teen died.
Youth Care says they will appeal the notice of suspension and work closely with state officials. They also say they are conducting their own review of procedures.
They called the death an unfortunate accident and an unexpected loss.
Comments
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&si ... ments=true (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=1730827&comments=true)
Post by: Anonymous on September 04, 2007, 08:29:42 PM
It is clear that this facility was negligent, is it not?
Post by: Bunnie on September 04, 2007, 08:36:38 PM
Quote
They called the death an unfortunate accident and an unexpected lossQuote
Here is the crap they pull, UNFORTUNATE ACCIDENT,
How about hiring enough staff, and hiring someone with some kind of degree, or common sense, who would be sure this child had gotten the help needed, How about BEING the kind of place you advertise you are!
Jeeze, when will this ever end or get better.
How can being sick and not being taken care of be an accident.
Liars!
Post by: psy on September 04, 2007, 09:24:59 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""puck""I was just a line staff, not one of the god-like therapists.QuoteI had held him accountable for his behavior (making threats against staff and students) and dropped his level, so he attacked me.
And you were doing so well before. Future trolls: Check for consistency next time!
What's inconsistent? At Benchmark even the lowest staff could drop your level at the snap of a finger. But hey.... shit happens. Personally, i'd love to have heard the kid's side of the story. People snap if pushed far enough. I'd like to know who was pushing, and how much.
I gotta admit. If Puck is really an Aspen employee, he has some balls coming onto this forum. Staff, unless on hands and knees, aren't usually accepted here kindly. I hope Puck can take a beating.
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 12:50:14 AM
And you said you'd want to stop abuse?
Bashing your face in for making him spend more time in a program is instant karma, you cock mongler.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on September 05, 2007, 12:56:15 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote….Of course the parents of the kids who are still there still don't know what really happened when they let a boy die there.
It wouldn’t be expected to notify the parents of the other children unless the problem could not be contained or brought under control within a short period of time. It appears they are reviewing their procedures and working with the appropriate state agencies at this time. So there seems to be sufficient visability.
There is no such thing as "sufficient visability" in Utah. The licensing suspension would not even have been newsworthy had it not been blatantly pointed out to the media by yours truly.
And shouldn't the parents of the other kids be alerted at least that the license of the facility where they have entrusted the safety and medical care of their children is under review for negligence?
Post by: psy on September 05, 2007, 04:24:59 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Dropping a level means more time in a program. It means more abuse.
And you said you'd want to stop abuse?
Bashing your face in for making him spend more time in a program is instant karma, you cock mongler.
I think you misunderstand, I totally agree. That's why I said i'd like to hear the kid's side of the story.
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 07:47:14 AM
Quote
There is no such thing as "sufficient visability" in Utah. The licensing suspension would not even have been newsworthy had it not been blatantly pointed out to the media by yours truly.
And shouldn't the parents of the other kids be alerted at least that the license of the facility where they have entrusted the safety and medical care of their children is under review for negligence?
I think what is meant is there are many people involved at this point and the on-call nurse is going to be called for every kid who sneezes until they figure out what went wrong. So as far as the probability of a repeat of this occurring during this period of change, it is virtually nil. They are trying to figure out if and where the procedure failed and how they can prevent this from happening in the future.
Sometimes they hire an independent agency to review the procedures (as a second pair of eyes) to see what they find and get recommendations from them.
As far as notifying the parents, this wouldn’t be warranted at this point because their kids are probably safer now then when they were a few weeks ago. If you own a restaurant and someone gets food poisoning you don’t hang a sign in your window alerting people to what occurred. You quickly resolve the issue, put corrections in place so that it doesn’t happen again.
If it were an epidemic of some sort then I would agree that the customers (or parents in this case) should be notified and alerted to the situation.
Post by: puck on September 05, 2007, 08:32:13 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Dropping a level means more time in a program. It means more abuse.
And you said you'd want to stop abuse?
Bashing your face in for making him spend more time in a program is instant karma, you cock mongler.
Yeah - how long he spent in the program was really up to me. I made him threaten others and attack me, because there's no such thing as personal liablitiy, right? Now I'm gonna be the one to make him spend time in prison for his actions. Hell - why don't you go ahead and blame me for him attacking someone in California, the mortgage crisis, and global warming. Quick, call Al Gore! You can safely make judegments about me confident in your own opinion that I must be the scum of the earth to work at an RTC. I have no problems with my conduct as a staff. I never abused students, I tried to be fair and patient at all times. I argued with admin and therapists when I felt rules or decisions were unfair or detrimental, but you wouldn't care about stuff like that. You see me as just another 'robo-puck' quick to bring down unjustice and abuse upon a poor misfortunate kid.
When I was attacked, the first hit broke the orbit of my eye. As he kept hitting my first thought was to swing around and plant my elbow into the side of his head and then just keep hitting. As an EMT I knew what the damage was to my face and the kind of surgery I would need to repair it. Then the second thought in my head was, "Control, don't hurt." As he kept hitting I turned away and reached back with both my arms to try and pin his arms down until another staff could respond. He landed some more blows to the back of my head and upper back until I was able to get hold of his arms. I proud of the fact that I didn't hit or injure him in any way. So go ahead and make all the judgements you want against me - applaud the kid for acting out violently and curse the adult system he will now be apart of as unfair and harsh (because it typically is). Sit proudly in your own ignorance and petty insults, but if you ever want to know the truth about me, then just ask.
Post by: Deborah on September 05, 2007, 09:02:05 AM
Thirty years and the geniuses haven't come up with a solution for "I thought s/he was faking" or for conducting 'proper' restraints. And, still not possible to legislate against ignorance. But they're working on it.
Eric S. Schibley 17
Bernard Reefer
Robert Zimmerman
Charles Lucas
James Lamb
Robert D. Erwin 15
Lyle Foodroy
Tammy Edmiston
Leon Anger
Mario Cano 16
Gregory Owen Jones 13
Brandon Hadden 18
Leroy Prinkley 14
Carey Dunn 15
Roxanna Gray 17
Wauketta Wallace 12
Danny Lewis 16
Unnamed girl 15
Michelle Sutton 15
Kristen Chase 16
Diane Harris 17
John Vincent Garrison 18
Shawn Diaz 15
Ryan McCandless 13
David Sellers 15
David Myers (staff)
Randall Porter (staff)
Vidar Anderson (rescuer)
Clayton Cutter (rescuer)
Anthony Green 15
Paul Choy 16
San Francisco Youth
Christie Scheck 13
Charlotte Holliman 14
Dawn Perry 16
Name Unknown 19
Jason Tallman 12
Jamie Young 13
Casey Collier 17
Aaron Bacon 16
Shinaul McGraw 12
Lorenzo Johnson 17
Thomas Maples 17
John Avila
Jamar Griffith 15
Carlos Ruiz 13
Earl Smith 9
Dawnne Takeuchi 18
Jeffrey Bogrett 9
Eric Roberts 16
John McCloskey 18
Will Futrelle 15
Bobby Sue Thomas 17
Bobby Jo Randolph 17
Robert Rollins 12
Sakena Dorsey 19
Christopher Landre 16
Melissa Neyman 19
Rochelle Clayborne 16
Demetrius Jeffries 17
Jimmy Kanda 6
Chris Campbell 13
Charles Collins Jr 15
Edith Campos 15
Matthew Maloney 13
Dustin Phelps 14
Nicholas Contreras 16
Tristan Sovern 16
Kelly Young 17
Matt Toppi 17
Chris Brown 16
Andrew McClain 11
Mark Soares 16
Chad A. Franza 16
Laura Hanson 17
Brandon Hoffman 17
Mark Draheim 14
Gina Score 14
Joshua Sharpe 17
Wallace Dandridge 16
Kristal Ceniceros 16
Timothy Thomas 9
Jerry McLaurin 14
Eddie Lee 15
Cecil Reed 16
Candace Newmaker 10
Michael Wiltsie 12
Corey Wm. Murphy 17
Randy Steele 9
Sabrina E. Day 15
Michael Ibarra 12
Adora Grae Stout 17
Willy Wright 14
Joseph D. Bolt 17
Dionte Pickens 14
Will Henry 16
Bryan Alexander 18
Carlton Thomas 17
Ryan Lewis 14
Stephanie Duffield 16
Tanner Wilson 11
Anthony Haynes 14
Valerie Ann Heron 17
Travis Ballard 15
Unnamed girl
Katherine Lank 16
Victoria Petersilka
Latasha Bush 15
Erica Harvey 15
Donderey Rogers 14
Ian August 14
Jeremy Gaulin 15
Maria Mendoza 14
Charles Moody 17
Teen Girl 15
Corey Baines 16
Orlena Parker 15
Daniel Matthews 17
Omar Paisley 17
Danita Ritchie 15
Willie Durden, III 17
Jamal Odum 9
unnamed 16
Karlye Anne Newman 16
Shirley Arciszewski 12
Matthew Meyer
Kasey Warner 13
Roberto Reyes 15
Brendon Oganawski? Unconfirmed
Walter Brown 18
LaKeisha Brown 17
Travis Parker 13
Randi Koetz
Alex Harris 12
Linda Harris 14
Shirley Arciszewski 12
Kasey Warner 13
Blaire Webbe 21
Boy 17
Mikie Garcia 12
James White 17
Martin Lee Anderson 14
Giavinni "Joey" Alteriz 16
James White 17
Angellika Arndt 7
Lenny Ortega 12
Kerry Layne Brown 24
Carter Lynn 18
Dillon Peak 14
Elisa Santry 16
Joe Burns
Alex Cullinane 13
Natalynndria Slim 16
Rocco Magliozzi 12
Darryl Thompson 15
Isaiah Simmons 17
Jonathan Carey 13
Caleb Jensen 17
Denis Manuel Maltez 12
Omega Leach 17
Brendon James Blum 14
Post by: Deborah on September 05, 2007, 09:08:16 AM
Quote from: ""puck""
I argued with admin and therapists when I felt rules or decisions were unfair or detrimental, but you wouldn't care about stuff like that. You see me as just another 'robo-puck' quick to bring down unjustice and abuse upon a poor misfortunate kid.
Actually, some would be interested, more interested in that than your defense for working at an RTC. That would be the most useful thing you could provide. Detail what you saw that was unfair or detrimental. People need to know what goes on behind closed doors.
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 09:33:22 AM
I think you will see that after you eliminate the state run hospitals and boot camps the numbers look pretty good.
NCES still has not released their data for 2004-2005 year..... as soon as it becomes availble I will add the figures in.
You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001 -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides , 2,959 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002 -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides , 2,868 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003 -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides , 2,846 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004 -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides , 2,722 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s.... All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:38:07 AM
Not this again.
Seventeen kids actually died as a direct result of neglect and abuse in hellholes during the timeframe Who is trying to cite.
Puck, you're a worthless piece of shit. I'm glad for his sake that he went to jail, because jail is a much better place than dealing with the likes of you. At least in the real prison system you can't arbitrarily decide to extend a kid's sentence and there's no pretense at therapy.
Where was the other kid in all this? Why didn't he come from behind and beat your fucking head in more?
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 10:22:13 AM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 10:29:55 AM
(Not even in Utah, I don't think.)
Now at least the parents know they can't send their kid away and magically get a new, 'fixed' kid back. Sur-PRIIIIISE, Mom and Dad! You thought you were going to inflict Aspen on him, and that would somehow make everything better, but instead it made him even more violent even faster! Wow! Betcha fucktards didn't see that coming!
Post by: Deborah on September 05, 2007, 10:32:52 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
:roll:
Not this again.
Seventeen kids actually died as a direct result of neglect and abuse in hellholes during the timeframe Who is trying to cite.
30 (thirty) between July 00 and June 04
Post by: EricasMom on September 05, 2007, 11:51:04 AM
Our daughter, Erica Harvey, died of heat stroke/dehydration May 27, 2002 at Catherine Freer Wilderness Therapy in Nevada, a private-pay wilderness program. Yet, though her name was on the list you "sorted", her death does not appear as a (negligent) homicide.
I'm sure Erica's not the only convenient omission on your list, Who.
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""Guest"":roll:
Not this again.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:yVUFwaRBv7EJ:www.caica.org/NEWS%2520DEATHS%2520Peak%25201.htm+Dillon+Peak+14&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us[/url]
http://http://www.autismvox.com/autistic-boy-dies-after-being-improperly-restrained/
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 12:09:15 PM
Quote from: ""EricasMom""
How did you "sort out" the program fatalities, Who?
Our daughter, Erica Harvey, died of heat stroke/dehydration May 27, 2002 at Catherine Freer Wilderness Therapy in Nevada, a private-pay wilderness program. Yet, though her name was on the list you "sorted", her death does not appear as a (negligent) homicide.
I'm sure Erica's not the only convenient omission on your list, Who.
Thanks for the info. I will add her to the list, if she fits the criteria we are tracking.
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: ""puck""
As he kept hitting my first thought was to swing around and plant my elbow into the side of his head and then just keep hitting. I proud of the fact that I didn't hit or injure him in any way.
I proud of you too!
I am glad you found new work away from such violent psychopaths.
It must be terrible on your wife and family to have to work that type of job and come home at night.
Things get better, Puck. I was in your situation several years ago and eventually my situation improved.
Keep your head on straight, buckle down and work hard and you will be out of the correction industry in no time.
Don't forget to stay in school, things will get better Puck.
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 01:13:20 PM
Quote from: ""EricasMom""
How did you "sort out" the program fatalities, Who?
Our daughter, Erica Harvey, died of heat stroke/dehydration May 27, 2002 at Catherine Freer Wilderness Therapy in Nevada, a private-pay wilderness program. Yet, though her name was on the list you "sorted", her death does not appear as a (negligent) homicide.
I'm sure Erica's not the only convenient omission on your list, Who.
The data does fit the present matrix and I was curious as to why the data was missing. As I was researching I found that the original matrix (http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=248259#248259) was just tracking homicides and suicides. I recall being asked to expand the matrix to include other institutions and accidental deaths etc. by a Roberbruce (http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=248910#248910) with the thought he would forward me the data to back fill if I would make the changes. So, anyway, the reason she was not on the list is because we didn’t have the category originally.
NCES tracks suicides and Homicides and that was the original intent was to compare to the NCES data.
I will adjust my matrix and check into the name you gave me and any others people could forward to me. I apologize for this mistake.
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 01:18:04 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""EricasMom""How did you "sort out" the program fatalities, Who?
Our daughter, Erica Harvey, died of heat stroke/dehydration May 27, 2002 at Catherine Freer Wilderness Therapy in Nevada, a private-pay wilderness program. Yet, though her name was on the list you "sorted", her death does not appear as a (negligent) homicide.
I'm sure Erica's not the only convenient omission on your list, Who.
The data does fit the present matrix and I was curious as to why the data was missing. As I was researching I found that the original matrix (http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=248259#248259) was just tracking homicides and suicides. I recall being asked to expand the matrix to include other institutions and accidental deaths etc. by a Roberbruce (http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=248910#248910) with the thought he would forward me the data to back fill if I would make the changes. So, anyway, the reason she was not on the list is because we didn’t have the category originally.
NCES tracks suicides and Homicides and that was the original intent was to compare to the NCES data.
I will adjust my matrix and check into the name you gave me and any others people could forward to me. I apologize for this mistake.
Great! :roll:
Just what we need. Some programs shill playing with stats. Why are you still here? Don't you have a daughter you should be repairing your relationship with? Or is she still not speaking to you?
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 02:54:03 PM
TheWho can't bear to see one of his former employees get mauled and maybe start coughing up some real info, so he needs to resort to this shit.
Hey Puck, if you're at all real,
NAME SOME FUCKING NAMES.
GIVE SOME REAL TESTIMONY TO THE GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE.
Trying to justify yourself on Fornits is like Saddam Hussein trying to justify himself in front of a war crimes court. It ain't going to happen! You really want to help, quit talking about yourself and all this hopeless self-justification crap and start talking details about what went on in there.
Post by: exhausted on September 05, 2007, 03:13:15 PM
didn't you all just hate it when Struggling Teens would only listen to one side of the story? What makes this any different all the time no-one will open their minds to everyone's view of what happens.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on September 05, 2007, 04:15:50 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
QuoteThere is no such thing as "sufficient visability" in Utah. The licensing suspension would not even have been newsworthy had it not been blatantly pointed out to the media by yours truly.I think what is meant is there are many people involved at this point and the on-call nurse is going to be called for every kid who sneezes until they figure out what went wrong. So as far as the probability of a repeat of this occurring during this period of change, it is virtually nil. They are trying to figure out if and where the procedure failed and how they can prevent this from happening in the future.
And shouldn't the parents of the other kids be alerted at least that the license of the facility where they have entrusted the safety and medical care of their children is under review for negligence?
Sometimes they hire an independent agency to review the procedures (as a second pair of eyes) to see what they find and get recommendations from them.
As far as notifying the parents, this wouldn’t be warranted at this point because their kids are probably safer now then when they were a few weeks ago. If you own a restaurant and someone gets food poisoning you don’t hang a sign in your window alerting people to what occurred. You quickly resolve the issue, put corrections in place so that it doesn’t happen again.
If it were an epidemic of some sort then I would agree that the customers (or parents in this case) should be notified and alerted to the situation.
There are not "many people" involded at this point. That is a joke. There is 1 licensing official looking at the police report, they don't even go in and do their own "investigation". They check that the licenses are current, review the police report and the coronor's report, and that the people on staff when the death occurred actually passed their background checks. There is NO oversight. There is no "indepedent agency". The whole thing is a frickin' joke. NO ONE REALLY CARES. The licensing agencies are just as negligent as the staff and the administration for knowing that medical neglect happens and not putting the proper safeguards in place, and holding the programs liable, even after multiple deaths.
"They are trying to figure out if and where the procedure failed" - If and Where???? give me a break. A boy died. There is no if and where. They didn't follow procedure. They didn't pick up the phone and call their own medical personnel. He did not just have flu symptoms. He was VIOLENTLY and PAINFULLY ill. They turned their back on a sick, helpless kid. Period. There's your if and where.
Your little restaurant analogy/food poisoning scenario is not comparable to the death of a child who was not believed. If I was the parent of one of the kids still at Youth Care, I would want to know exactly what happened, and who is being investigated for what, so I could decide for myself if I wanted to leave my child there. If every program had to close down whenever a child died, they might get it that they are responsible for their behavior and the safety of their kids. If they can't do that, then they shouldn't be doing business.
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 05:12:04 PM
Quote
There is no "indepedent agency".
We don’t know that. Business typically hire out to other business (independent agency) to get a second opinion. See if they can assist in rewriting the procedure or give them counsel or advice on what they do etc. which could help them in the future and eliminate this from happening again.
Quote
"They are trying to figure out if and where the procedure failed" - If and Where???? give me a break
What was meant by that is the break down could have been that the procedure was crystal clear and if followed correctly would have prompted the staff to call the on-call nurse. The other possibility is that the procedure was faulty and did not indicate a call to the on-call nurse was needed. Whether the staff should have known better doesn’t matter, if the procedure didn’t specify what to do then the school is 100% libel. If it was specified then the staff is partially libel etc. So these questions need to be asked (and answered)
Quote
If I was the parent of one of the kids still at Youth Care, I would want to know exactly what happened…
I agree with this statement, from a parents perspective. But from a business perspective it doesn’t make any sense. No other business in the world does this:
If you walk thru a hospital lobby you will not see notices of the patients who died that day and what the cause was, who was to blame. They don’t notify you the day before surgery to tell you 3 people died the day before for the exact same operation you are scheduled for.
If you walk into a car dealership you will not see pictures of car accidents and statistics of people who die of faulty breaks, tires etc.
I have yet to be in a restaurant and see any reference to mad cow disease or the number of people who die each year from restaurant food on the menu or in view of the patrons.
The agencies are in place to take care of this. or are they? Hmmmm....
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 05:57:00 PM
In a hospital, the staff is legally, morally, and ethically obligated to inform patients of the risks. Period! If the operation is inherently risky then that will be explained in advance. If it's not, and people are dying anyway, then it's time for investigations and lawsuits.
And don't give us crap about the "proper procedure". The "proper procedure" can be anything Aspen (http://http://www.aspenyourth.info) wants it to be. They can write whatever fiction they want and claim it as the procedure, when in reality their staff is told to do things entirely differently. It's an old, old game.
Here's another, more apt analogy: Your mildly retarded kid's private school teacher locks him in a closet and ignores his screaming when he cuts himself in an artery. By the time she unlocks the door the kid is long dead. And the other kids apparently shouldn't be informed because hey, it's a business!
It's nice to know that despite the rampant brutality of Anonymous, your posts are many times worse.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on September 05, 2007, 05:58:03 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
QuoteThere is no "indepedent agency".
We don’t know that. Business typically hire out to other business (independent agency) to get a second opinion. See if they can assist in rewriting the procedure or give them counsel or advice on what they do etc. which could help them in the future and eliminate this from happening again.
Yes we do know that there is no "independent agency". I called licensing directly and asked the person in charge of the case.
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 06:41:55 PM
Quote
Yes we do know that there is no "independent agency". I called licensing directly and asked the person in charge of the case.
Actually , you don’t know. Licensing doesn’t know diddly, they focus on the checks and balances. They determine if you are meeting requirements or not and can make recommendations. They do have latitude but they don’t know if Aspen has engaged another company to review their procedures (I guarantee they have and are presently being rewritten, if not done and implemented). In fact, corporate wouldn’t want licensing to know in case it turned out they were not in compliance. This would give them time, from a legal standpoint, to get their ducks in a row and rewrite the procedure and get the new one in place ASAP.
As far as whether the existing procedure is adequate, time will tell. If the agencies do their job the information should surface and root cause will be determined which will, in turn, allow for corrective action to take place.
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 07:13:13 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
QuoteYes we do know that there is no "independent agency". I called licensing directly and asked the person in charge of the case.
Actually , you don’t know. Licensing doesn’t know diddly, they focus on the checks and balances. They determine if you are meeting requirements or not and can make recommendations. They do have latitude but they don’t know if Aspen has engaged another company to review their procedures (I guarantee they have and are presently being rewritten, if not done and implemented). In fact, corporate wouldn’t want licensing to know in case it turned out they were not in compliance. This would give them time, from a legal standpoint, to get their ducks in a row and rewrite the procedure and get the new one in place ASAP.
As far as whether the existing procedure is adequate, time will tell. If the agencies do their job the information should surface and root cause will be determined which will, in turn, allow for corrective action to take place.
Fuck off you moronic piece of shit!!
WHO IS A PROGRAM SHILL WHOSE PURPOSE IS TO DISTRACT AND DEFLECT FROM THE REAL ISSUES.
::troll:: ::troll:: ::troll::
Read this again Who. Whoever wrote it was dead on.
Quote from: ""Guest""
Jesus fucking Christ Who, your analogies are as sickening as ever.
In a hospital, the staff is legally, morally, and ethically obligated to inform patients of the risks. Period! If the operation is inherently risky then that will be explained in advance. If it's not, and people are dying anyway, then it's time for investigations and lawsuits.
And don't give us crap about the "proper procedure". The "proper procedure" can be anything Aspen (http://http://www.aspenyourth.info) wants it to be. They can write whatever fiction they want and claim it as the procedure, when in reality their staff is told to do things entirely differently. It's an old, old game.
Here's another, more apt analogy: Your mildly retarded kid's private school teacher locks him in a closet and ignores his screaming when he cuts himself in an artery. By the time she unlocks the door the kid is long dead. And the other kids apparently shouldn't be informed because hey, it's a business!
It's nice to know that despite the rampant brutality of Anonymous, your posts are many times worse.
Post by: Froderik on September 05, 2007, 07:35:42 PM
Quote from: ""exhausted""
I can't see where he's tried to justify himelf, hes just bringing in another angle on how the system works (or doesn't)
didn't you all just hate it when Struggling Teens would only listen to one side of the story? What makes this any different all the time no-one will open their minds to everyone's view of what happens.
It seems there was a question of accountablility (posed in the guest's post) concerning this Puck dude.... or was it TheWho? W/e..
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 07:58:36 PM
Quote
WHO IS A PROGRAM SHILL WHOSE PURPOSE IS TO DISTRACT AND DEFLECT FROM THE REAL ISSUES.
Actually, I think we are all getting tired of this line. You come on here and use it over and over again. I am discussing the issues. You are trying to turn this into “Thewhoâ€
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 08:04:24 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
QuoteWHO IS A PROGRAM SHILL WHOSE PURPOSE IS TO DISTRACT AND DEFLECT FROM THE REAL ISSUES.
Actually, I think we are all getting tired of this line. You come on here and use it over and over again. I am discussing the issues. You are trying to turn this into “Thewhoâ€
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 08:10:15 PM
I thought TheWho was banned?
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 08:21:53 PM
Quote
I'm not disrespecting the dead child,.....
Then stay on topic is all we ask. We are presently focusing on the investigation of the childs death. The last item was whether the parents of the other children should be notified of what has happened.
I know from past experience that the parents are notified either by phone or letter if a child has died or an injury has occured. But the more important issue, at hand, was whether the school (or business) has an obligation to notify the parents (customers) during and ongoing investigation and at what point,if any, should the parents of the other children be notified.
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 08:23:18 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 08:26:11 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 08:27:22 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 08:38:03 PM
536
Restraint: 236
Dehydration: 144
Beating: 98
Suicide: 38
*source United States Red Cross
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 08:46:07 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 08:46:50 PM
58%*
This number is high, we need to work on getting it down, as a community.
*Source: US Crime Statistics Bureau
Post by: Froderik on September 05, 2007, 09:00:02 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Re-Ban theWho.
NEVERMIND TheWho here's the BuLLocKs...
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
Quote
Total Number of Children Murdered in Programs: Years 1965-2007
536
Restraint: 236
Dehydration: 144
Beating: 98
Suicide: 38
*source United States Red Cross
Thanks for the input, Your numbers span more than 4 decades, we lose much more than that (750 children approx.) every 3 months * in our public school system due to just suicide and homicide. This doesn’t count the number of kids killed at home due to beatings, restraints, drug overdoses.
Programs take a big hit here on fornits, but like you have shown (when placed in perspective) their track record shows they can be a much safer alternative for kids at-risk than doing nothing and allowing them to fail at home.
* NCES -- National Center for Education Statistics
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:03:42 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Percentage of program parents who touch their kids in inappropriate places:
58%*
This number is high, we need to work on getting it down, as a community.
*Source: US Crime Statistics Bureau
The number is going up fast, unfortunately.
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:07:03 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:09:32 PM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
Quote from: ""TheWho""QuoteThere is no such thing as "sufficient visability" in Utah. The licensing suspension would not even have been newsworthy had it not been blatantly pointed out to the media by yours truly.I think what is meant is there are many people involved at this point and the on-call nurse is going to be called for every kid who sneezes until they figure out what went wrong. So as far as the probability of a repeat of this occurring during this period of change, it is virtually nil. They are trying to figure out if and where the procedure failed and how they can prevent this from happening in the future.
And shouldn't the parents of the other kids be alerted at least that the license of the facility where they have entrusted the safety and medical care of their children is under review for negligence?
Sometimes they hire an independent agency to review the procedures (as a second pair of eyes) to see what they find and get recommendations from them.
As far as notifying the parents, this wouldn’t be warranted at this point because their kids are probably safer now then when they were a few weeks ago. If you own a restaurant and someone gets food poisoning you don’t hang a sign in your window alerting people to what occurred. You quickly resolve the issue, put corrections in place so that it doesn’t happen again.
If it were an epidemic of some sort then I would agree that the customers (or parents in this case) should be notified and alerted to the situation.
There are not "many people" involded at this point. That is a joke. There is 1 licensing official looking at the police report, they don't even go in and do their own "investigation". They check that the licenses are current, review the police report and the coronor's report, and that the people on staff when the death occurred actually passed their background checks. There is NO oversight. There is no "indepedent agency". The whole thing is a frickin' joke. NO ONE REALLY CARES. The licensing agencies are just as negligent as the staff and the administration for knowing that medical neglect happens and not putting the proper safeguards in place, and holding the programs liable, even after multiple deaths.
"They are trying to figure out if and where the procedure failed" - If and Where???? give me a break. A boy died. There is no if and where. They didn't follow procedure. They didn't pick up the phone and call their own medical personnel. He did not just have flu symptoms. He was VIOLENTLY and PAINFULLY ill. They turned their back on a sick, helpless kid. Period. There's your if and where.
Your little restaurant analogy/food poisoning scenario is not comparable to the death of a child who was not believed. If I was the parent of one of the kids still at Youth Care, I would want to know exactly what happened, and who is being investigated for what, so I could decide for myself if I wanted to leave my child there. If every program had to close down whenever a child died, they might get it that they are responsible for their behavior and the safety of their kids. If they can't do that, then they shouldn't be doing business.
TheWho is a CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER.
He spent three years in prison.
He made these posts a long time ago before deleting them.
He found this forum searching for his case, and attempts to defend himself.
Kind of changes thing, doesn't it?
He will deny it but the posts are on archive sites, check it out.
Post by: Negro Observer on September 05, 2007, 09:17:25 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
It is unfortunate so many parents think cleaning their child's diaper includes eating their shit. It's not good for them.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:20:49 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:22:59 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:25:20 PM
Post by: Negro Observer on September 05, 2007, 09:28:30 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:P :P :P
::bwahaha::
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:33:21 PM
:roll:
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:40:19 PM
Post by: Negro Observer on September 05, 2007, 09:45:34 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:47:15 PM
Quote from: ""Negro Observer""
(http://http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/avalanche04/maintopburkkin.jpg)(http://http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/avalanche04/maintopburkkin.jpg)(http://http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/avalanche04/maintopburkkin.jpg)
You could at least be humorous. That shit's just stupid.
Post by: TheWho on September 05, 2007, 09:47:51 PM
Quote
You can safely make judegments about me confident in your own opinion that I must be the scum of the earth to work at an RTC. I have no problems with my conduct as a staff. I never abused students, I tried to be fair and patient at all times. I argued with admin and therapists when I felt rules or decisions were unfair or detrimental, but you wouldn't care about stuff like that. You see me as just another 'robo-puck' quick to bring down unjustice and abuse upon a poor misfortunate kid.
Try to hang in there and tell your story. It sounds like you tried to make a difference in your own way.
Keep posting, there are many readers out there who don’t share the same ideals of the many attacking you here, you are just in the midst of a ton of anger from people who only care about themselves. There are many of us who do care and are focused on the well being of these kids and your story could make a difference.
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:52:57 PM
Quote from: ""Negro Observer""
(http://http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/avalanche04/maintopburkkin.jpg)(http://http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/avalanche04/maintopburkkin.jpg)(http://http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/avalanche04/maintopburkkin.jpg)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:54:32 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You could at least be humorous. That shit's just stupid.
:cry2: :cry2: :cry2:
You know, I don't know why someone would think a picture of the burger king statue saying he's gonna fuck you in the butt is funny..but I'll be damned if I'm not laughing my fucking ass off! :rofl:
Negro Observer, you are one funny mofo! Keep 'em cumming!! :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:56:38 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""You could at least be humorous. That shit's just stupid.:cry2: :cry2: :cry2:
You know, I don't know why someone would think a picture of the burger king statue saying he's gonna fuck you in the butt is funny..but I'll be damned if I'm not laughing my fucking ass off! :rofl:
Negro Observer, you are one funny mofo! Keep 'em cumming!! :rofl: :rofl:
::nod::
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 09:57:44 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
It is well known theWho enjoyed the taste of his child's feces.
He told me that too!
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 10:07:16 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2007, 10:08:16 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 06, 2007, 08:49:47 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
(http://http://home.blarg.net/~wayule/graphics/serious.jpg)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: exhausted on September 07, 2007, 06:43:18 AM
Post by: Anne Bonney on March 25, 2010, 12:35:34 PM
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: ""Guest""Dear AnonyMom of Murdered Kid:
Your son died screaming.
Do you understand what a bowel infarction truly is? It is a piece of the intestine dying.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001151.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001151.htm)
He didn't die in his sleep. He didn't die quickly. This is not a heart attack. Blood sepsis (the ultimate cause of this sort of death) is not insta-lethal. He had severe systemic shock and fever.
Of course, kids scream in pain in programs all the time. The reason he died there, and not in a hospital, is because his cries of agony were completely ignored. He had severe abdominal pain. Think about it. A piece of his intestine died as the result of God knows what was done to him.
No, he was screaming, in mortal agony. He had to have been screaming, or possibly suffering agony in silence (doubtful- this HURTS LIKE HELL) because he knew very well that no one would listen to him.
No one took him to a hospital.
And now we've got idiots claiming "genetic defect". Priceless!
This may seem harsh, but you're not out of line, guest. I'm sure the program faithful assured this grieving mother that her son died quietly in his sleep.
As we go back and forth like the Holy Roman Crown over reform vs protest, I'm reminded again of another chilling reality. I'm going to take the liberty of telling a little bit about my daughter. I can't reach her right now, but I'm real confident that she'd be alright with this. If not, my bad, I'll have to make it up to her somehow.
My daughter had a bowel infraction. It damned near killed her. I know what it's like. The girl was wild with panic and pain, projectile vomiting and drifting in and out of shock for 7 hours while licensed, trained, qualified medical professionals in the ER flatly refused her diagnostic services.
They did this on the grounds that they had to have a urine sample to rule out pregnancy before they could do a standard x ray. The charge nurse seemed to insinuate that they dismissed my daughter's symptoms as drug effects, maybe a minor overdose or serious withdrawal. She said things like "She's acting rather bizarrely". And she was, of course. She was in intense pain for hours and doped up on the Benzos the er staff had given her. I know what that's like. Many laboring women will try to pack up and go home when the pain gets to its crescendo. My kid was trying to crawl off the foot of the bed; trying to escape the pain, crying, begging and pleading for help.
So convinced were these men and women that they were looking at nothing more then some dumb assed teenager's self inflicted issues and her gullible mother buying her bullshit that, even 2 hours after the catheter they had put into her bladder failed to produce enough urine for a test, I (a layman w/ no medical training) had to point this out to the doctor. When he finally connected the dots, his eyes went wide and he called in the radiology team to to their damned job.
Here's my point, folks. The industry uses as a defense that it exists to fill a market demand. That is factually true, in my humble opinion. But they say that like it's a good thing.
I'm telling you that, going back at least as far as the Nixon Administration, these sadistic lunatics, self deluded and well intended as they may be, have so influenced our society's beliefs and attitudes about young people with their toxic hate and scorn, they have so exaggerated in our collective conscious the relatively low risks of unauthorized drug use that even well trained, licensed, regulated medical professionals damned near let my daughter die screaming, crying, dry heaving, hallucinating and begging for help and mercy because of it.
It is no coincidence that the people who have become multimillionaires on the backs of tortured children and duped parents invest in particular political candidates and political action committees like DFAF. I have long held to the idea that any candidate or organization affiliated with this mindless death and torture industry should be shamed out of public life.
Our society is sick in a lot of ways. Somehow we have to address this before anything will improve. Maybe through art, maybe by various kinds of rebellion, maybe through the electoral and legal process, maybe some other ways.
Go ahead with your talk of regulation and reformation. My bit is real, real simple. Rampant talking out in group. Be rude and uncivilized about it if the situation seems to call for it. Be artful and humorous if that's the spirit that moves you. But please understand that the troubled parent industry is not the core or source of the problem, it's just one of the more rancid, obscene symptoms of our societal ills. And love your children. Hell, give a little boost to any kid you see, even if they're acting immature or awkward at the moment you encounter them.
Right now, something like 60% of school aged children are deemed abnormal by education professionals. Wake the fuck up, folks! That is a ridiculous statement! There's nothing wrong with the kids. If they're angry and anti-social in these numbers, maybe they've got something to be angry about.
:eek:
Post by: Anne Bonney on March 25, 2010, 02:47:34 PM
Quote from: "hurleygurley"
QuoteSat, 30 Jun 2007 07:28:56 -0500
Boy found dead at Draper group home (Provo Daily Herald)
by Home inspector's checklist @ Sat, 30 Jun 2007 07:28:56 -0500
SALT LAKE CITY -- A southern California boy died at a home in Draper, apparently in his sleep. The 14-year-old boy awoke early Thursday complaining of stomach and bowel problems, was placed in a separate room from other kids and found dead the next morning, said Carol Sisco, spokeswoman for Utah Department of Human Services.
Teenage Boy Dies In His Sleep At Utah Group Home (2News Salt Lake City)
A teenage boy died at a group home in Salt Lake City -- about a day after complaining of stomach and bowel problems, officials said.
Original post: Boy found dead at Draper group home (Provo Daily Herald) by Copyright (c) 2004 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. at Yahoo! News Search Results for home inspectors
Blog tag: Home inspector's checklist
Technorati tag: Home inspector's checklist
f anyone finds out the identity of the boy and his family, please let me know and let them know I may be a significant resource for them as the investigation is handled by Utah officials.
I will post more about this but the short story is this:
Aspen Ed. owns Youth Care. CRC Health merged with Aspen Ed. (backed by Bain (mormon) private equity) . So CRC owns Youth Care. By extremely odd coincidence I had had a 20 year acquaintance as a therapist consulting with a psychiatrist on various cases. I admired him very much ~ particularly his intellectual honesty and integrity. He closed his private practice a few years ago (in San Francisco) as a child and adolescent psychiatrist, like so many other doctors who couldn't afford private practice anymore. He said he was going to work for managed care and try to make change in medical standards "from the inside". Lo and behold, he turns out to be the Medical Director at CRC Health.
He is senior management now with a big salary and stock options. I couldn't have imagined that he was anything other than the person I knew but I also know that people can be influenced and pressured and end up on the wrong side. This appears to be what happened to Thomas Brady. I had called him this past October as the merger was being finalized and filled him in on all the gory details, particularly about Youth Care/PR because I started out in this murkey world trying to get my son's girlfriend out of there.
I gave him documents which proved medical negligence among a long list of other sh**. I told him that for each document I gave him I have more to support my claims. He dodged, sent me back all the documents I gave him face to face and implied that he would deal with this but on his own terms. I called him last week before I knew of the death and told him that I cannot see anything that makes me believe that he hasn't been corrupted and that he's dodging me. I have proof that the umbrella company had been specifically informed of gross abuse and negligence and they did not act on it.
I would encourage anyone involved in Aspen program issues to contact CRC Health in Cupertino, California. I would also contact Aspen Execs. I would say that calls and emails to executive management of both would be most useful.
Please contact by private post or at tbrady@crchealth.com (http://mailto:tbrady@crchealth.com) and the ceo of crc: http://www.crchealth.com (http://www.crchealth.com)
http://www.youthcare.com (http://www.youthcare.com)
http://www.aspeneducation.com (http://www.aspeneducation.com)
and not that I presume this will be of use:
http://www.hsdcfs.utah.gov/newsletter.htm (http://www.hsdcfs.utah.gov/newsletter.htm) (/Dept. of Human Services in Utah)
and of course there's good old Ken Stettler - I have some interesting email exchanges with him and one of the asst. attorney generals which are pretty damning.
Also, if you blog it would be great if you could blog the news article with any pertinent commentary with the same title as the article.