Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Ridge Creek School / Hidden Lake Academy => Topic started by: PostGradParent on June 11, 2007, 01:03:51 PM
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Just an FYI for prospective families:
HLA will try convincing you they do not allow romantic liasons between students on campus. However, "dating" is the norm- many students are involved (romantically) with other students, and even manage to find unsupervised areas on campus in which to engage in sexual activity. I am not refering to one, isolated instance, either, and assure you, although "prohibited", staff are often and admitedly aware these "relationships" between students exist.
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the Gyms lavs were the hit parade in our time.
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the Gyms lavs were the hit parade in our time.
Thank you for your honesty.
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Just an FYI for prospective families:
HLA will try convincing you they do not allow romantic liasons between students on campus. However, "dating" is the norm- many students are involved (romantically) with other students, and even manage to find unsupervised areas on campus in which to engage in sexual activity. I am not refering to one, isolated instance, either, and assure you, although "prohibited", staff are often and admitedly aware these "relationships" between students exist.
It is impossible to have a co-ed campus and keep the kids from developing relationships with each other. I am not concerned as much about the relationships the staff know about. That just tells me they are in tune with what is going on. I am more concerned about the ones they don't know about. If staff know about students being sexually active and do not do anything about it or help hide it, then that is a problem.
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Sex happened between students at HLA daily. Students would watch the bathrooms while other kids were in the bathrooms getting jiggy with it! It has happened and will continue to happen.
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Ahhh...Romance among teenagers at HLA. Would you say that this was common knowledge among HLA students?
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I and my lady friend made our mark in the old phone booths by the infirmary.
In my time it went on fairly often but I wouldnt say it occured every day. Times do however change.
Sex between teenagers is common and normal, espically in such close quarters like HLA. I'd be more concerned if they werent trying to have sex with each other. It'd probably mean someone was slipping salt peter in the water.
No, the bigger concern is probably the question regarding sex between staff and students.
Danny your thoughts?
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What about when staff members (no pun intended) get sexually involved with the kids, like Danny Pervel?
HLA will do nothing about it; no disciplinary action, nothing. When they find out they pretend not to know...
As a former staffer, I can say that there was a lot of sex on campus, but all of mine was with other staffers. Those "youth counselors" are some horny women!
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This is a very old argument and one that will likely not be resolved. I will state again what I have stated before...
This issue of Danny have sex with another student MAY be true, however, the idea that HLA did nothing about it is not true. I know for a fact that HLA interviewed many students about the allegations. The girl that suposedly had sex with him did not say it happened and no student that was interviewed had no information other than rumors they had heard from other students.
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Having been part of more then one internal investigations at HLA, and seen what they entail, I would still question the legitimacy of almost any report that came out of there if it were done all in house.
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That's all fine and dandy, but the girl has PM'ed users here (including me) and verified that she had "sexual relations with that man, Mr. Pervel."
Why wouldn't HLA's management directly and forcefully confront the Perv (el) while letting him know criminal charges would be brought? This seems to be the CORRECT way to handle it, not just interview some kids who, if they knew, propbably wouldn't admit it, lest they be punished as "accessories" in someone else's guilt...
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One of the girl's in my son's PG had sex with a boy who happened to be 17 years old - she was 15 at the time. Having sex with a 15 year old is considered Statutory Rape. HLA knew about it and did nothing about it.
http://www.cycc.state.ga.us/statutory.html (http://www.cycc.state.ga.us/statutory.html)
Statutory Rape Law
(Per OCGA 16-6-3)
In Georgia, you can go to jail for having sex! The law states:
If you have sexual intercourse with any person under the age of 16 years, you will have committed statutory rape.
A person 21 years of age or older convicted of statutory rape shall be imprisoned for a minimum of ten and up to 20 years.
A person age 17-20 convicted of statutory rape shall be imprisoned for one to 20 years.
If the victim is 14 or 15 years of age and the person convicted is no more than three years older than the victim, the person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
It does not matter if you are male or female.
It does not matter if you are unaware of the victim's age.
It does not matter if the sex is consensual.
For detailed information on this law, visit Georgia's Legislative Monitoring Center or contact your local district attorney.
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http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 279#146279 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=146279#146279)
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Geez, what peer Group# was that 15 year old in? Don't reveal names, but please let me know the PG#
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Geez, what peer Group# was that 15 year old in? Don't reveal names, but please let me know the PG#
Out of respect for her family, I will not reveal the PG. It's too easy to figure out who she was and I think she and her family have been through enough. I will tell you it was a recent PG.
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One of the girl's in my son's PG had sex with a boy who happened to be 17 years old - she was 15 at the time. Having sex with a 15 year old is considered Statutory Rape. HLA knew about it and did nothing about it.
http://www.cycc.state.ga.us/statutory.html (http://www.cycc.state.ga.us/statutory.html)
Statutory Rape Law
(Per OCGA 16-6-3)
In Georgia, you can go to jail for having sex! The law states:
If you have sexual intercourse with any person under the age of 16 years, you will have committed statutory rape.
A person 21 years of age or older convicted of statutory rape shall be imprisoned for a minimum of ten and up to 20 years.
A person age 17-20 convicted of statutory rape shall be imprisoned for one to 20 years.
If the victim is 14 or 15 years of age and the person convicted is no more than three years older than the victim, the person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
It does not matter if you are male or female.
It does not matter if you are unaware of the victim's age.
It does not matter if the sex is consensual.
For detailed information on this law, visit Georgia's Legislative Monitoring Center or contact your local district attorney.
If HLA knew about it then the girl's parents knew about it. Why did they not press charges?
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I pray that it was not my 15 year old and if it was, I would like to know that information so that we can get her on birth control right away. Do her parents already know about this? Can you just give me her first initial?
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They had considered it, but were dissuaded from doing so. Wouldn't have helped "therapeutically" or so they were told.
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Translation: "It's best for us if we sweep this rape under the rug. I'm sure you understand, Mrs. Mother of Raped Child, don't you?"
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That makes me want to puke :cry2:
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That's pretty much what happened.....
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I am truly sickened at the thought of that. How did the staff find out about it and why would they not notify the girls parents about it?
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The girl's parents were notified, but it was downplayed. But the parents are the ones who reminded HLA that sex with a 15 year old girl is considered statutory rape. That's when they comments started about the daughter not progressing therapeutically, you're not working with us on the program, we know what we're doing.... We've all heard those same comments.
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How timely!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/11/teen.s ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/11/teen.sex.case/index.html)
• NEW: Prosecutors appeal ruling to throw out Genarlow Wilson's sentence
• Judge voided Wilson's 10-year prison term
• Wilson in prison for consensual oral sex at age 17 with 15-year-old girl
• He will remain in prison until appeal is decided
ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- A judge on Monday threw out the 10-year sentence against a 21-year-old for a consensual sex encounter he had as a teenager. But the state attorney general quickly filed a notice of appeal, keeping Genarlow Wilson in prison for the time being.
The prosecutor's move brought an abrupt halt to the jubilation Wilson's mother, Juannessa Bennett, and his attorney, B.J. Bernstein, were feeling, and the plans they were making for Bennett to be reunited with her son.
"It is extremely, extremely disturbing that the attorney general would take this action now," Bernstein said, adding that she did not know what message "he's trying to send" or "who he's representing."
In a written statement, Georgia Attorney General Thurbert Baker said he filed the appeal to resolve "clearly erroneous legal issues," saying that while the judge did have the authority to grant habeas relief, he did not have the authority "to reduce or modify the judgment of the trial court."
Separately, Baker noted that Douglas County recently had offered a plea deal "that would have allowed Genarlow Wilson to plead to First Offender Treatment, which would mean that he would not have a criminal record nor would he be subject to registering on the sex offender registry once his sentence had been completed."
"The plea deal, if accepted by Genarlow Wilson's lawyers, could also result in Genarlow Wilson receiving a sentence substantially shorter than the 10-year mandatory minimum sentence for which he was originally sentenced, possibly leading to his release based upon time already served," Baker wrote.
"Genarlow Wilson, through his attorneys, rejected all of those offers. The district attorney's office has indicated that the plea offer will remain available to Genarlow Wilson notwithstanding the appeals process," according to Baker's statement.
Wilson has drawn support from throughout the country, including the editorial board of the New York Times and former President Jimmy Carter.
When he was 17 years old, he had a consensual sexual encounter with a 15-year-old girl, which was consensually videotaped.
Georgia law at the time made such an action a felony punishable by 10 years in prison and listing on the sex offender registry.
The state legislature later changed the law, partly in response to Wilson's case. But the change was not made retroactive, leaving Wilson in jail. He has already served more than two years.
Superior Court Judge Thomas H. Wilson of Monroe County, Georgia, voided the sentence Monday, agreeing with Bernstein that the punishment was cruel and unusual, and therefore unconstitutional, Bernstein said.
The judge ruled Wilson should serve one year, less than he has already served, and that he would not be listed as a sex offender.
Upon reading his ruling, which was faxed to her office in Atlanta, Bernstein cheered, screamed with delight, and hugged Wilson's mother. Watch Wilson's mom, lawyer's tearful reaction to the judge's ruling
"I just feel like a miracle happened," Bennett told CNN.
"He didn't deserve to have the sexual predator status," she said.
When Bernstein -- a frequent guest on CNN -- spoke to reporters before the attorney general's announcement, she pleaded with prosecutors to give up the fight.
"This has been a really long 28 months," Bernstein said tearfully. "It's a very long fight. And right now we have an order of release. And I beg the attorney general of the state of Georgia: please, enough. Do not file an appeal, please. Because we have an order of release right now for a young man that I think most everybody in the community believes should not be in prison."
She added, "Please, please, enough."
Bennett called the decision "a dream come true. It's definitely a dream come true." Of the judge she said, "He got a lot of heart, and God bless him."
Bernstein said she could not believe how long it took to get to this point.
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Who told the girl's parents not to pursue legal action? Was it her counselors or the administration? If it were her counselors then they should talk to the director of counseling. If it was the director of counseling then I don't know what to say. HLA should stay out of that, if only to protect themselves. The parents need to get a second opinion from an independent source.
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The director of counseling? How would we get ahold of him? He never ever posts here under various usernames. Not once.
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Who told the girl's parents not to pursue legal action? Was it her counselors or the administration? If it were her counselors then they should talk to the director of counseling. If it was the director of counseling then I don't know what to say. HLA should stay out of that, if only to protect themselves. The parents need to get a second opinion from an independent source.
The "Powers that Be" knew about this as did the counselors.
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Things like this have gone on for years over there. Why are you now acting suprised?
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Just an FYI for prospective families:
HLA will try convincing you they do not allow romantic liasons between students on campus. However, "dating" is the norm- many students are involved (romantically) with other students, and even manage to find unsupervised areas on campus in which to engage in sexual activity. I am not refering to one, isolated instance, either, and assure you, although "prohibited", staff are often and admitedly aware these "relationships" between students exist.
It is impossible to have a co-ed campus and keep the kids from developing relationships with each other. I am not concerned as much about the relationships the staff know about. That just tells me they are in tune with what is going on. I am more concerned about the ones they don't know about. If staff know about students being sexually active and do not do anything about it or help hide it, then that is a problem.
I agree with your initial statement, but disagree with HLA saying (and stating in handbooks, I believe) that romantic relationships are not allowed (and even CONSEQUENCED), but knowingly allow them to go on. It was another instance where we felt we had been misled by the school- as a prosepctive family, we were told romantic relationships beteen the students are disallowed, which was part of the reason we chose the facility. After our student had been there 3 months, we find out our student's in a relationship the school knows about. Hmmm.
You may have misunderstood what I said, initially- I did not accuse staff of knowing students were having sexual relations and not reporting them. My complaint is that we were paying a heck of a lot of money for our children to be SUPERVISED at all times, but at numerous times with numerous students, that supervision did not exist, which allowed students opportunities to be sexually active. And they were.
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Alot of times the level of interference run on a relationship depended on the individual counselor. Some were vigilant about it, others just looked the other way. Breaking of the sex "agreement" (never quite got that one) almost always garrunteed some level of punishment.
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HLA cannot keep kids from having romantic feelings for each other. It's impossible. They can, for the most part, keep them from acting on those feelings in a physical manner. Now, if you are commenting on the quality of supervision at HLA, then I will agree with you that HLA often screwed up supervision of kids.
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I agree about the romantic feelings - that's part of being a teenager. No one wants to see a kid leave there pregnant or with an STD. That's where the lack of supervision really is important and was/is severely lacking.
Kids got mixed signals from the staff as well. Some kids were allowed to have romantic feelings while others were punished for having romantic feelings.
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there was sex...lots of sex. but i dont see what the fuss is about, consensual sex between two people is OK, given that the age is appropriate. 14 and 18 is not ok, but say 16 with 17 or 15 with 16 is ok. you cant stop romantic feelings. and it's just our society that imposes superficial laws on sex. up untill the 20th century, and still to this day in most places other than the USA people start having sex in their early teens, and get married in their mid to late teens. it's completely natural, given that it's appropriate and not forced or coerced.
the issue really lies with sex education. kids need to be taught from an early age the importance of safe sex. they need to understand that if they fuck without a condom, they could get aids, and if they are not carefull, might have to deal with supporting a kid a little too early in life.
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Again...Was it common knowledge among the students that a lot of students were having sex on a regular basis?
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There is no way that you can put boys and girls together at that age and them NOT be attracted to each other and find a way to get together. Should the staff have tried better to keep them apart? yes. But its going to happen. Kids are clever. Kids will pay off other kids to be lookouts. Kids will sneak around. Thats nothing new. Any relationship between staff and student should have resulted in immediate dismissal and if appropriate, criminal investigation. But, to make a big deal between the 17 yr old and the 15 yr old is silly. Thats a normal age difference. I was almost 17 when I started dating my first husband. He had just turned 23 that week when we met. We were together 10 years. There was nothing wrong with our relationship. I have a friend right now, whos daughter is 18. Is getting married in August to a man who is 24. Again, nothign wrong with this scenario. If the kid was 17 and the girl was 12 or 13...now thats slightly different. But 17 and 15 is no reason to try to press charges against the boy unless it was rape. Thats overreacting to normal teenage stuff.
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Again...Was it common knowledge among the students that a lot of students were having sex on a regular basis?
Define regular.
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I guess I would define regular in HLA terms to be, once every week. Sometimes more...
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When I was incarcerated at HLA, it occured probably once a month.
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Yeah, sex happenes. That in and of itself isn't the problem, however. Parents should know the following:
STDs: As far as I know, HLA tells (or told) parents that students with STDs wouldn't be admitted. Yet, a child who was VERY sexually active WHILE at HLA was infected with Hep C.
OZ? : We know what happens with straight men while incarcerated in prisons... and it shouldn't shock anyone that that male on male sexual activity was the most present type of sexual activity on campus (after male on himself of course.) I don't think the staff knows how many gay and lesbian relationships actually go on there. So many girls and boys decide to become temporary bisexuals because of the restricted access to the opposite sex.
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Again...Was it common knowledge among the students that a lot of students were having sex on a regular basis?
whenever the staff found out, the entire student body would find out, and vice versa. in this case, something happened roughly once a month. But, sex did happen alot more often. if you find out about these events it's only becouse you're a lookout. alot of the time no one but the couple even knows. this is becouse at HLA, becouse of the fall-out system NO ONE could be trusted, and if you wanted to get away with something you dont tell ANYONE. the kids that brag get caught, the ones that dont brag about their escapades get keep having sex every day. observant kids usually figure it out, but to figure it out you had to be smart, and smart kids usually didnt narc.
the same thing occured in relation to drugs and "Fight clubs". kids smoked weed every day, got coke in on a regular basis, even got into the med room regularly. just staff never finds out becouse kids are smart. the dumb ones get caught. smart ones dont. some rooms in dorm B (while it still was a dorm) had nightly fight clubs. no punching above the neck, no biting, fight stops when someone bleeds. staff never found out becouse the kids involved understood that the continuance of this activity solely relied of keeping their mouths shut.
what disturbs me though is that becouse of the lack of allowance of sex, no condoms are available to the kids.
one girl in my peer group had sex and was afraid of getting pregnant after she had unprotected sex twice at the peak of her monthly fertility without any protection, at HLA. she got sent to RCI WITHOUT a pregnancy test, and when she got back they told her if she is, that she will be forced to have an abortion by her parents, via school coercion. she wasnt pregnant, but if she was, and wanted to keep the baby, what then?
This is one of those times the overturning of Roe.vs.Wade would work against the conservatives.
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Let's see.....
Locked windows on dorms.
Walkie-talkie communication when someone is moving around campus alone.
Night watch.
Alarm system on doors.
The Promise that, while parents can't watch their kid 24/7, HLA can.....
And still nature prevails. Imagine.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
Can't believe they haven't devised a system in which the kids wear ankle braclets. Their whereabouts flashing on a screen at all time which staff monitors.
Even then, I'd bet their raging hormones would propel them to find a way around that.
Could it be that many? most? staff believe the rules to be ridiculously unrealistic themselves, so turn the other way?
Why not sex ed? Zero tolerance has NEVER been effective and never will be. Why are HLA's techniques so antiquated? Why can't they get with current evidence-based methods? That's the very least they could do for the captive audience they have. Teach them something that's actually useful. But, I guess that requires genuine caring. How much authentic caring is there to be found in an institution?
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yes where there is a will there is a way. here are a few examples, many people here may know what i'm talking about:
there are a number of blind spots in the cameras in the girls dorm. the south side of dorm B and north side of dorm A only have about 10 feet separation. in one instance, after the head counts before the alarm was turned on a room on the north side of dorm B distracted the night guards while a kid ran out the south side and was let in by a girl in dorm C a few feet away. they quickly "got it on" in the blind spot and ran back. no one found out for a few days untill the girl bragged about it and someone tattled.
The bathroom window in dorm B opens. or used to open, they probobly nailed it shut by now. kids would just crawl out and do their thing at night, weather it be shagging or smoking.
whenever lower left field was occupied by both sexes, (usually both on restrictions on far left, while either half of the student body did their thing on the soccer field/hill) kids found a way to do their thing. usually kids would ask to go to the bathroom or wander off from a work assignment at a prearanged time, and meet up in the woods or in the little bathroom/toolshed they had built down there.
the SAC was a very eventfull place to be also ;)
the most intriguing story i can remember is when a kid got a hand job in the lodge. they were sitting side by side on the couches, in plain view with 100 other kids packed around them. they both wore baggy sweatpants, and guy cut a hole in the inside of his pocket, where the girl stuck her hand. you can figure what happened there.....
oh about drugs....this has been happening since HLA opened and they still havnt caught on. there are a number of plants which may be grown inconspicuously which provide effects. personally i brought some seeds in to the school (shoes) and grew these plants on lower left, and reaped the harvest. morning glories were really popular, calamus root and valerian root was nice. there were also some hops here and there, but it was somewhat useless. i also grew jimson weed and datura for fun, and just in case i feel like giving my counselors a psychotic episode. i never took any of the jw or datura for obvious reasons, but i know one kid's curiosity really took hold. he decided to eat some and for the next week his eyes were completely dilated and he was acting like a maniac he got sent to RCI for his behavior which he did not remember or understand. but the morning glories = nice. to this day they provide me glory at home every fall.
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Morning Glories were the big thing when I was there as well. They grew all over the place, kids would pick them and then boil them into a tea.
For some reason the staff never caught on.
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With all of this "fall-out" being given recently on this sight I am having trouble understanding posts in the past that said staff would ride you during fall out sessions until you made something up even if you didn't know anything. It seems to me that you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to have any fall out to write down.
Whether or not you think fall out is a good idea, you have to admit that when kids said that they didn't know anything they were full of crap. Can someone on here at least admit that? Even if you think the whole concept of fall out is evil.
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When the punishment is identical for actually doing something or just knowing about it, why would they tell on themselves? If you did something and I knew about it, I would be punished right with you after I snitched on you. Why not just take my chances and say "I know nothing?"
The system CREATES liars.
Gotta love that snitch culture.
BTW, do you think these kids were sent to HLA because they are serial truth-tellers???
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With all of this "fall-out" being given recently on this sight I am having trouble understanding posts in the past that said staff would ride you during fall out sessions until you made something up even if you didn't know anything. It seems to me that you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to have any fall out to write down.
Whether or not you think fall out is a good idea, you have to admit that when kids said that they didn't know anything they were full of crap. Can someone on here at least admit that? Even if you think the whole concept of fall out is evil.
The narc method isn't 'effective'. It doesn't work. Can you just admit that. Short on the real skills needed for working with teens, programs resort to such BS and call it 'therapy'. Did even one kid in the history of HLA "agree" to the "agreements". Isn't that manipulation on the part of the program? Rules are rules. Call them that. Narcing is narcing. And if the rules weren't so unrealistic and the consequences so severe, perhaps there 'might' be more narcing.
Lots of survivors read/post here. Ask them why they didn't narc on their friends. Why it wasn't effective.
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I get what you are saying and can agree with you way of thinking. I am just looking for someone to stand up and say that it is a load of crap for a student at HLA to say "I don't know anything" in regards to fall out.
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Also...I know a lot of counselors didn't do it this way but the way it was SUPPOSED to happen is that you were not to get into trouble if you came out with something on fall out. You were suppose to get into trouble if it turns out you knew something that came out and you didn't write it on fall out. That is how I did it with my groups. I would always tell me kids that fallout was a way for them to stay out of trouble, not get in to it. They other way makes no sense at all. You are right that it encourages lying. I never put a kid on restriction for knowing something about another student as long as they put it on their fall out list.
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The narc method isn't 'effective'. It doesn't work. Can you just admit that. Short on the real skills needed for working with teens, programs resort to such BS and call it 'therapy'. Did even one kid in the history of HLA "agree" to the "agreements". Isn't that manipulation on the part of the program? Rules are rules. Call them that. Narcing is narcing. And if the rules weren't so unrealistic and the consequences so severe, perhaps there 'might' be more narcing.
Lots of survivors read/post here. Ask them why they didn't narc on their friends. Why it wasn't effective.
I have no problem admitting that it is not effective. The most meaningful "fallout" that I received from kids was when I was able to help cultivate an atmosphere of genuine caring within the Peer Group. Then the kids would come to me on their own and tell me things that they were concerned about among their peers. I also told them that I didn't care about getting any fallout unless it had to do with one of the three main agreements or if they new someone was running away. I really couldn't care less about the little rules in regards to fall out.
Now, and this is really geared toward the kids, will someone admit that students are full of it when they say that they don't know anything.
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No.
Here's the best way to describe it:
"Most of the time they screamed abuse at him and threatened at every hesitation to deliver him over to the guards again; but sometimes they would suddenly change their tune, call him comrade, appeal to him in the name of Ingsoc and Big Brother, and ask him sorrowfully whether even now, he had not enough loyalty to the Party left to make him wish to undo the evil he had done. When his nerves were in rags after hours of questioning, even this appeal could reduce him to sniveling tears. In the end the nagging voices broke him down more completely than the boots and fists of the guards. He became simply a mouth that uttered, a hand that signed whatever was demanded of him. His sole concern was to find out what they wanted him to confess, and then confess it quickly, before the bullying started anew. He confessed to assassination of eminent Party members, the distribution of seditious pamphlets, embezzlement of public funds, sale of military secrets, sabotage of every kind. He confessed that he had been a spy in the pay of the Eastasian government as far back as 1968. He confessed that he was a religious believer, an admirer of capitalism, and a sexual pervert. He confessed that he had murdered his wife, although he knew , and his questioners must have known, that his wife was still alive. He confessed that for years he had been in personal touch with Goldstein and had been a member of an underground organization which had included almost every human being he had ever known. It was easier to confess everything and implicate everybody. Besides in a sense it swas all true. It was true that he had been the enemy of the Party, and in the eyes of the Party there was no distinction between the thought and the deed."
That was a fallout session right there, it didnt matter whether you knew anything or not, and often you didnt. It was more important that you confess something, anything, whether it was true or not was irrellevant.
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My child was screamed at, and screamed at, because my child had nothing to write one session. then my child was given 50 push -ups.
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I get what you are saying and can agree with you way of thinking. I am just looking for someone to stand up and say that it is a load of crap for a student at HLA to say "I don't know anything" in regards to fall out.
What's the point. A "load of crap" response to a "load of crap" method. Why do you expect anything else? Is one really any worse than the other? And we haven't even touched on kids being put on restrictions for false allegations written in fall out sheets. No apologies, just tough luck.
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You were suppose to get into trouble if it turns out you knew something that came out and you didn't write it on fall out. That is how I did it with my groups. I would always tell me kids that fallout was a way for them to stay out of trouble, not get in to it.
With whom? Sure didn't keep them out of trouble with their peers. How many kids were victims of retaliation?
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I have no problem admitting that it is not effective. The most meaningful "fallout" that I received from kids was when I was able to help cultivate an atmosphere of genuine caring within the Peer Group. Then the kids would come to me on their own and tell me things that they were concerned about among their peers.
The question: why weren't they coming to you with issue about themselves that caused them concern?
Might've been genuine, but I can see how this could just be a different technique for narcing.
How did you determine if a kid was guilty of the allegations? How did you know who was lying? Did you ever apologize for wrongly punishing?
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the fallout system is a load of crap. first, kids dont narc becouse not minding your own bussiness is as unethical as rape or murder. especially for kids who grow up in urban areas, everyone knows snitches get stitches.
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You were suppose to get into trouble if it turns out you knew something that came out and you didn't write it on fall out. That is how I did it with my groups. I would always tell me kids that fallout was a way for them to stay out of trouble, not get in to it.
With whom? Sure didn't keep them out of trouble with their peers. How many kids were victims of retaliation?
You always take a risk when you tell on someone. I expected the kids to tell when they knew that someone was putting themselves or someone else in danger. You don't seem to agree with that. That's fine. If my child were doing drugs on campus and another student knew about it, I hope they would tell on my kid.
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I have no problem admitting that it is not effective. The most meaningful "fallout" that I received from kids was when I was able to help cultivate an atmosphere of genuine caring within the Peer Group. Then the kids would come to me on their own and tell me things that they were concerned about among their peers.
The question: why weren't they coming to you with issue about themselves that caused them concern?
Might've been genuine, but I can see how this could just be a different technique for narcing.
How did you determine if a kid was guilty of the allegations? How did you know who was lying? Did you ever apologize for wrongly punishing?
They did come to me with issues that concerned themselves.
There were definitely times when kids were just trying to get someone in trouble. I dealt with that as a separate issue. I would investigate the allegations before putting kids on restrictions.
There is only one time that I know of that I put a kid on restriction when they did not deserve it. How do I know? I asked every kid before they left the school. Every time, except for once, I got the answer that they had done it every time I put them on. The one that said I put him on when he didn't do it told me that it was okay, when I apologized to him. He said, "I just looked at that restriction as being for all the things I did that you never caught me for."
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the fallout system is a load of crap. first, kids dont narc becouse not minding your own bussiness is as unethical as rape or murder. especially for kids who grow up in urban areas, everyone knows snitches get stitches.
Nice code of ethics you have there. How about running that by someone who has been raped and see if they agree with you.
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You were suppose to get into trouble if it turns out you knew something that came out and you didn't write it on fall out. That is how I did it with my groups. I would always tell me kids that fallout was a way for them to stay out of trouble, not get in to it.
With whom? Sure didn't keep them out of trouble with their peers. How many kids were victims of retaliation?
You always take a risk when you tell on someone. I expected the kids to tell when they knew that someone was putting themselves or someone else in danger. You don't seem to agree with that. That's fine.
How many kids were in imminent danger and how many were "holding hands with the opposite sex"?
If my child were doing drugs on campus and another student knew about it, I hope they would tell on my kid.
If a staff was abusing my son, I hope another staff would tell on him/her. How often does that happen???? In my experience.... Never. Isn't it true that there is a double-standard in operation at HLA, okay for staff not to tattletale, but kids are required?
You know the #1 thing kids HATE? Double-standards. Discrepency. Staff exhibiting these will never gain the kids full trust or respect. That's a fundamental flaw in all programs.
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Fall Out is a load of crap. Kids would make stuff up about each other or they'd make stuff up about themselves just to get out of Fall Out. My child's counselor wouldn't let the kids leave Fall Out until they wrote something because he swore he knew they had done something wrong and just needed to admit it - how screwed up is that??? And when the kids were honest about events that occurred or their feelings, he'd put them on Restrictions (yes, even for things that weren't considered "restriction" rules). Now you tell me how that is therapeutic?
The only thing he accomplished was making kids fear and resent telling the truth because they would be punished for being honest. The end result was the kids would lie or hide their feelings or make things up that weren't quite so bad so the punishment wouldn't be so severe and the counselor would be satisfied that he'd made breakthroughs with these kids. Pathetic? Yes. Therapeutic? Not one bit.
Retaliation? Oh yeah - Talk to the boys about getting the crap beaten out of them at night. It's well known if you "snitched" you'd were going to get an ass beating. The boys would distract the night staff and then beat up the "snitch". Most of the times this occurred in the bathrooms because it was easy to trap a kid in there while another group had the night staff distracted out in the hallway or one of the bedrooms.
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Fall Out is a load of crap. Kids would make stuff up about each other or they'd make stuff up about themselves just to get out of Fall Out. My child's counselor wouldn't let the kids leave Fall Out until they wrote something because he swore he knew they had done something wrong and just needed to admit it - how screwed up is that??? And when the kids were honest about events that occurred or their feelings, he'd put them on Restrictions (yes, even for things that weren't considered "restriction" rules). Now you tell me how that is therapeutic?
Ditto
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=91673#91673 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=91673#91673)
The only thing he accomplished was making kids fear and resent telling the truth because they would be punished for being honest. The end result was the kids would lie or hide their feelings or make things up that weren't quite so bad so the punishment wouldn't be so severe and the counselor would be satisfied that he'd made breakthroughs with these kids. Pathetic? Yes. Therapeutic? Not one bit.
Ya know what's really creepy about this? The staff really think they're the catalyst for 'breakthroughs' when the majority of what they do there is for their own egos.
Retaliation? Oh yeah - Talk to the boys about getting the crap beaten out of them at night. It's well known if you "snitched" you'd were going to get an ass beating. The boys would distract the night staff and then beat up the "snitch". Most of the times this occurred in the bathrooms because it was easy to trap a kid in there while another group had the night staff distracted out in the hallway or one of the bedrooms.
Ex staff, how is this therapeutic, useful at all? What about that 24/7 surviellence that "parents can't provide but HLA can"? Seems some kids, the one's who are scared shitless, live in constant anxiety, between a rock and a hard spot. Restrictions.... or peer retaliation. Now that's some 'thurepy' right there.
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You were suppose to get into trouble if it turns out you knew something that came out and you didn't write it on fall out. That is how I did it with my groups. I would always tell me kids that fallout was a way for them to stay out of trouble, not get in to it.
With whom? Sure didn't keep them out of trouble with their peers. How many kids were victims of retaliation?
You always take a risk when you tell on someone. I expected the kids to tell when they knew that someone was putting themselves or someone else in danger. You don't seem to agree with that. That's fine.
How many kids were in imminent danger and how many were "holding hands with the opposite sex"?
If my child were doing drugs on campus and another student knew about it, I hope they would tell on my kid.
If a staff was abusing my son, I hope another staff would tell on him/her. How often does that happen???? In my experience.... Never. Isn't it true that there is a double-standard in operation at HLA, okay for staff not to tattletale, but kids are required?
You know the #1 thing kids HATE? Double-standards. Discrepency. Staff exhibiting these will never gain the kids full trust or respect. That's a fundamental flaw in all programs.
I would hope the staff would tell on him/her also. I personally reported a handful of instances in which I thought staff were inappropriate. They were all investigated and several staff members were let go for a variety of reasons. You are not going to hear details from the school because they cannot violate the privacy of the employee.
My kids were told to give me fall out if there was a danger to that person or themselves. And if what is being posted lately on this site is true then there was a lot of sex and a lot of drug use going on. Not just "holding hands". I am glad that there were some students that were willing to do the more difficult thing and tell on their freinds who were making bad choices. I think it is a sign of true friendship. Do you have a problem with kids telling an authority figure that their friend is in a sexual relationship or is doing drugs?
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Fall Out is a load of crap. Kids would make stuff up about each other or they'd make stuff up about themselves just to get out of Fall Out. My child's counselor wouldn't let the kids leave Fall Out until they wrote something because he swore he knew they had done something wrong and just needed to admit it - how screwed up is that??? And when the kids were honest about events that occurred or their feelings, he'd put them on Restrictions (yes, even for things that weren't considered "restriction" rules). Now you tell me how that is therapeutic?
Ditto
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=91673#91673 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=91673#91673)
The only thing he accomplished was making kids fear and resent telling the truth because they would be punished for being honest. The end result was the kids would lie or hide their feelings or make things up that weren't quite so bad so the punishment wouldn't be so severe and the counselor would be satisfied that he'd made breakthroughs with these kids. Pathetic? Yes. Therapeutic? Not one bit.
Ya know what's really creepy about this? The staff really think they're the catalyst for 'breakthroughs' when the majority of what they do there is for their own egos.
Retaliation? Oh yeah - Talk to the boys about getting the crap beaten out of them at night. It's well known if you "snitched" you'd were going to get an ass beating. The boys would distract the night staff and then beat up the "snitch". Most of the times this occurred in the bathrooms because it was easy to trap a kid in there while another group had the night staff distracted out in the hallway or one of the bedrooms.
Ex staff, how is this therapeutic, useful at all? What about that 24/7 surviellence that "parents can't provide but HLA can"? Seems some kids, the one's who are scared shitless, live in constant anxiety, between a rock and a hard spot. Restrictions.... or peer retaliation. Now that's some 'thurepy' right there.
This is a result of Len Buccellato allowing inappropriate students into the school. And changing him changing the staff dynamics to the point that made it nearly impossible to build relationships with the kids. The violence has gotten progressively worse at HLA since he changed the staff/student dynamics. Staff have no time to build real relationships with the kids any more.
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My kids were told to give me fall out if there was a danger to that person or themselves. And if what is being posted lately on this site is true then there was a lot of sex and a lot of drug use going on. Not just "holding hands".
Holding hands was off limits as well. Who decided that holding hands was a violation of the "sexual agreement"?
You're not really going to act surprised that sex/ drugs/ tobacco/ dip/ whatever, weren't engaged in or available, are you?
What were you told in your professional training about unwilling clients? Does it really make sense to think someone forced into an isolated environment and so-called therapy is going to be willing and cooperative. All the more reason to rebel, further justifying the trumped up "ODD" label they all receive.
I am glad that there were some students that were willing to do the more difficult thing and tell on their freinds who were making bad choices. I think it is a sign of true friendship. Do you have a problem with kids telling an authority figure that their friend is in a sexual relationship or is doing drugs?
It depends on who the authority figure is and how it's going to be handled. There are plenty authority figures that I would discourage a kid from telling.
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Do you have a problem with kids telling an authority figure that their friend is in a sexual relationship or is doing drugs?
damn i just came to realize we have some genuinely conservative confomative backwards-thinking nieve people on this site. then again this country is full of this scum. i dont understand, why must your children suffer locked up in an institution? why must your child be punished for your own mistakes and bigotry? did it ever come to you that maybe SEX AND DRUGS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM! you are the problem. they are an intrinsic part of humanity as a whole, and their opression only brings about grief. a kid who is doing drugs is not a bad kid, they are just curious. but, it is up to you as a parent to know where to draw the line, and understand the difference between various patterns and habits.
some HLAesque examples you might be able to relate to:
a kid who smokes weed every day but gets good grades. He doesnt get along with his parents, but has stable freindships. He doesnt get into trouble, although his freinds seem shady. his parents are worried.
this kid is a pothead. yet, is that a bad thing? although he partakes in questionably legal activity, he is still fullfilling his responsibilities. maybe he doesnt get along with his parents becouse they dont approve of their lifestyle. so, there starts "the war that never was". maybe a simple blind eye here or there by the parents will IMPROVE the relationship, and keep him from making stupid desicions.
a kid smokes weed every day, sits around, does nothing, skips school, etc. also does hard drugs like cocaine, heroin, or methamphetamine.
this is where you must draw the line. it is at THIS point that kids need help.
a girl is 15 years old and is dating a 17 year old. they have sex regularly. the parents of the girl dont approve of the relationship, regardless of reasoning, even though they seem to be in love.
the parents need to grow up. and maybe change their church or something.
a girl is 14 and sleeps around. she dates guys up to a decade older. she gets drunk alot, and lets anyone take advantage of her.
when this happens 90% of the time it's becouse the parents are in a dysfunctional relationship themselves. the other 10% is becouse the girl is hitting puberty and her raging horomones are making her too horny to control. hey, some people are meant to be pornstars!
bigots, take a fucking look at yourselves and grow a backbone. and some self honesty would help, since i cant give you people the harder truth. i can only estimate.
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Do you have a problem with kids telling an authority figure that their friend is in a sexual relationship or is doing drugs?
damn i just came to realize we have some genuinely conservative confomative backwards-thinking nieve people on this site. then again this country is full of this scum. i dont understand, why must your children suffer locked up in an institution? why must your child be punished for your own mistakes and bigotry? did it ever come to you that maybe SEX AND DRUGS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM! you are the problem. they are an intrinsic part of humanity as a whole, and their opression only brings about grief. a kid who is doing drugs is not a bad kid, they are just curious. but, it is up to you as a parent to know where to draw the line, and understand the difference between various patterns and habits.
some HLAesque examples you might be able to relate to:
a kid who smokes weed every day but gets good grades. He doesnt get along with his parents, but has stable freindships. He doesnt get into trouble, although his freinds seem shady. his parents are worried.
this kid is a pothead. yet, is that a bad thing? although he partakes in questionably legal activity, he is still fullfilling his responsibilities. maybe he doesnt get along with his parents becouse they dont approve of their lifestyle. so, there starts "the war that never was". maybe a simple blind eye here or there by the parents will IMPROVE the relationship, and keep him from making stupid desicions.
a kid smokes weed every day, sits around, does nothing, skips school, etc. also does hard drugs like cocaine, heroin, or methamphetamine.
this is where you must draw the line. it is at THIS point that kids need help.
a girl is 15 years old and is dating a 17 year old. they have sex regularly. the parents of the girl dont approve of the relationship, regardless of reasoning, even though they seem to be in love.
the parents need to grow up. and maybe change their church or something.
a girl is 14 and sleeps around. she dates guys up to a decade older. she gets drunk alot, and lets anyone take advantage of her.
when this happens 90% of the time it's becouse the parents are in a dysfunctional relationship themselves. the other 10% is becouse the girl is hitting puberty and her raging horomones are making her too horny to control. hey, some people are meant to be pornstars!
bigots, take a fucking look at yourselves and grow a backbone. and some self honesty would help, since i cant give you people the harder truth. i can only estimate.
Your inappropriate foul language and name calling turn me off. I think you're full of yourself.
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Tell him again! Maybe the FOURTH time will be a charm.
Seriously, lady, you need to be able to sort through the rhetoric and see the points for what they're worth. It is this type of blanket dismissal of this kid based on how he expresses himself that shows where parents need to improve. 90% of what this kid says is accurate, yet you dismiss it because of your being uptight about language.
It's not okay to lock up an otherwise normal kid in an institution just because he says "fuck you" to you a lot. Yet this is exactly the profile of most of HLA's institutionalized population and it's due to parents' getting their panties in a bunch over relatively minor things...
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Guest wrote:
some HLAesque examples you might be able to relate to:
a kid who smokes weed every day but gets good grades. He doesnt get along with his parents, but has stable freindships. He doesnt get into trouble, although his freinds seem shady. his parents are worried.
this kid is a pothead. yet, is that a bad thing? although he partakes in questionably legal activity, he is still fullfilling his responsibilities. maybe he doesnt get along with his parents becouse they dont approve of their lifestyle. so, there starts "the war that never was". maybe a simple blind eye here or there by the parents will IMPROVE the relationship, and keep him from making stupid desicions.
a kid smokes weed every day, sits around, does nothing, skips school, etc. also does hard drugs like cocaine, heroin, or methamphetamine.
this is where you must draw the line. it is at THIS point that kids need help.
Okay -- let's take that second kid. What do parents do? The kid needs help, as you say. Assume further that some unsuccessful attempt has been made to provide help at home. Are parents to wait until the kid further harms him or herself and requires a locked facility, is targeted as a truant, and/or is picked up by the juvenile officials for drug use, drug sale, or criminal activity to support drug purchase?
The assumption that parents send their kids to a therapeutic boarding school to get rid of them and their rudeness doesn't seem to apply here. Perhaps there are indeed parents who will spend huge sums of money to get peace and quiet at home. For most parents, however, that's money that needs to be borrowed or diverted from other things that they would much rather do. I just have to believe that people are going to be pretty desperate for help before they take this kind of step. And Guest, at least, agreed that the second kid mentioned really does need help -- it's not just a situation of someone involved in recreational drug use who is otherwise functioning well.
Without offering any defense of HLA, which has its flaws, I'd like to know what those who condemn parents for taking these steps would suggest?
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This topic has been parsed again and again here. Obviously, local solutions are available. If the kid requires institutionalization, then s/he must meet the following criteria:
1. Is an imminent danger to self (will kill self).
2. Is an imminent danger to others (will kill others).
3. Is unable mentally to function in any other environment.
It's really that simple.
There's a thread in the Troubled Teen Industry forum called "What quality care looks like". I suggest you read that.
Institutionalization of your kid is not a solution.
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Quote:
I am glad that there were some students that were willing to do the more difficult thing and tell on their freinds who were making bad choices. I think it is a sign of true friendship. Do you have a problem with kids telling an authority figure that their friend is in a sexual relationship or is doing drugs?
My child was forced to do the Fall-out book. My child did as told. For
that, my child was threatened by two other violent children. My child lived in fear. Yet when something was reported such as suicidal thoughts or my child stayed up night after night counseling other children to prevent them from sliting their wrists, it was upon deaf ears. A chronic Bulemic child was also counseled by my child and my childs' concerns were ignored. Those instances should be reported. However, their is a code of ethics that hopefully most children were brought up with. THerefore, if one is in fear for someone's well being, then seek help. Otherwise,
work on oneself before casting stones or judgement. What HLA has done,
is to create retaliation and break any bond that the children may have with each other...including honour.
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In my time retaliation wasnt as huge a concern, unless you made it a point to tell on the person in a very open setting. In which case you deserved what you got.
The bigger threat came from counselors who had heard something about an inmate and then held marathon fall out sessions waiting to see who would acknowledge the truth. Essentially you could be kept in the session until someone gave them the specific information they were looking for. One memorable fall out session I had lasted from 730 at night until 3 in the morning. Very theraputic I think.
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yeah..the so called "special reals". they'd just pull you out of class the last peroid, and keep you there untill they figure out whats goin on.
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Special reels sucked big hairy nuts...
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In my time retaliation wasnt as huge a concern, unless you made it a point to tell on the person in a very open setting. In which case you deserved what you got.
The bigger threat came from counselors who had heard something about an inmate and then held marathon fall out sessions waiting to see who would acknowledge the truth. Essentially you could be kept in the session until someone gave them the specific information they were looking for. One memorable fall out session I had lasted from 730 at night until 3 in the morning. Very theraputic I think.
I agree RB. This goes back to what I stated earlier in regards to Len letting in inappropriate kids. In your time, most of the kids were pretty appropriate placements. Not all by any means, but much more so than years later. As the years went by he started letting in many kids, and families, that should never have been there. That is when you started seeing more violence on campus. This also happened when he changed the duties of the staff to make it more difficult to build relationships with the kids.
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I agree RB. This goes back to what I stated earlier in regards to Len letting in inappropriate kids. In your time, most of the kids were pretty appropriate placements. Not all by any means, but much more so than years later. As the years went by he started letting in many kids, and families, that should never have been there. That is when you started seeing more violence on campus. This also happened when he changed the duties of the staff to make it more difficult to build relationships with the kids.
Yes, so right! when i got there (02') i would say %75 of the kids should have been there, and the rest were victims of over-conservative parents, or rich lazy and gullible parents, and there were maybe a few that were too dangerous to be there, or needed other, more intensive help.
the day i realized HLA is goin to shit is the day Matt Tennenbaum came. He was Retarted, or something, but he would walk around saying nayaaaa all the time, and there were at least a dozen incidents of him goin to the bathroom in his pants.
and then a week later a kid came that had to be restrained by 6 staff memebers and a cop his first day, cuz he tried to stab someone with a plastic knife.
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Matt T. is a great example. There came a point when you didn't know what HLA was supposed to be. Was it a mental health facility which would have been good for Matt? Was is a youth detenetion center which would have been good for sociopath type kids like the child of one of the plantiffs in the law suit? Or, was it a TBS for kids who needed extra structure but could basically do well as long as they had a little help?
When you mix all three of those together it is impossible to have a successful school/program. That solely falls on Len, though he basically told his staff to make it work.
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Matt T. is a great example. There came a point when you didn't know what HLA was supposed to be. Was it a mental health facility which would have been good for Matt? Was is a youth detenetion center which would have been good for sociopath type kids like the child of one of the plantiffs in the law suit? Or, was it a TBS for kids who needed extra structure but could basically do well as long as they had a little help?
When you mix all three of those together it is impossible to have a successful school/program. That solely falls on Len, though he basically told his staff to make it work.
Who decided enough was enough and left? And who choose to go along with it, you know "make it work"? How many of those people are still there despite knowing it's wrong?
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Matt T. is a great example. There came a point when you didn't know what HLA was supposed to be. Was it a mental health facility which would have been good for Matt? Was is a youth detenetion center which would have been good for sociopath type kids like the child of one of the plantiffs in the law suit? Or, was it a TBS for kids who needed extra structure but could basically do well as long as they had a little help?
When you mix all three of those together it is impossible to have a successful school/program. That solely falls on Len, though he basically told his staff to make it work.
Is it ethical and legal for a (former) member of HLA's counseling staff to reveal information about former students?
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I believe it was a former student who originally mentioned Matt, not a staff member. Either way, it is not a good thing to put last names. If you are going to give examples about former students it should be done in a way that you cannot ID specifically who the person is.
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I believe it was a former student who originally mentioned Matt, not a staff member. Either way, it is not a good thing to put last names. If you are going to give examples about former students it should be done in a way that you cannot ID specifically who the person is.
But a former counselor should know it's unethical and illegal to release information on a former student without formal written permission. You agree with that, don't you?
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Hell, do you think anyone over there follows a law or a code of ethics? See if you can answer that yourself...
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I believe it was a former student who originally mentioned Matt, not a staff member. Either way, it is not a good thing to put last names. If you are going to give examples about former students it should be done in a way that you cannot ID specifically who the person is.
But a former counselor should know it's unethical and illegal to release information on a former student without formal written permission. You agree with that, don't you?
Yes. Of course.