Post by: Antigen on May 13, 2003, 01:42:00 PM
Thanks
Ginger Warbis
Hatch Act (http://www.osc.gov/hatch_a.htm). Here we see Calvina Subvert an Election in Ohio (http:///Forbes/ohio/)" (Letter from E&F, Page 2 (http://docs/Fay-2.gif))
|
It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues
--Abraham Lincoln
Post by: ClayL on May 13, 2003, 02:53:00 PM
Further, the Supreme Court has stated plainly the Internet is a place where free speech is rampant and must be held to a freer (sp?) standard. If I wish to take to task DFAF and the persons, especially public spokes-persons in DFAF's emloyee, then I am not only capable, but encouraged to do so. If Ms.Fay has such a thin skin, she should find another line of work!
Clay
Post by: JDavid on May 13, 2003, 03:01:00 PM
All those Nazis should find another line of work instead of capitalizing on their "moral cleansing" apartheid agenda.
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2003, 03:08:00 PM
Those a**holes!
Post by: ehm on May 13, 2003, 03:08:00 PM
Those a**holes!
Post by: ehm on May 13, 2003, 03:10:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: Mo on 2003-05-13 12:11 ]
Post by: ehm on May 13, 2003, 03:10:00 PM
Post by: ehm on May 13, 2003, 03:13:00 PM
I AM SPAM... ::spam:: SORRY TOO MUCH EARL GREY.
Post by: Antigen on May 13, 2003, 03:19:00 PM
Moralizing, with the force of law or coercion, is a
far greater crime against the constitutional principles of our nation than unauthorized euphoria, regardless of the substance involved, be it chocolate or heroin.
--James
Post by: Antigen on May 13, 2003, 08:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-05-13 11:53:00, ClayL wrote:
"Well if this doesn't seem like DFAF's standard operating proceedure.
Oh yeah! Let's not forget what happened to Radley Balko when he ran his interview with Sammie on http://foxnews.com/ (http://foxnews.com/) http://www.theagitator.com/straightfox.php (http://www.theagitator.com/straightfox.php)
Then there's the time, a couple of years ago, when Calvina tried to have Lester Grinspoon's medical license pulled because he admitted to smoking pot in a High Times interview.
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/8jcl/8JCL83.htm (http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/8jcl/8JCL83.htm)
Quote
On 2003-05-13 11:53:00, ClayL wrote:
Their mouth piece well knows that the burden of proof in libel is on the plaintiff and the plaintiff must show ACTUAL harm. Not the supposed harm they seem to be taking issue to here. In my opinion I believe DFAF and the ilk who work for them would like to see the death penalty for smoking dope or perhaps thinking about a drink before driving.
That's actually documentable. Both DARE founder, Daryl Gates, and Wm. Bennett (the bookie of virtue) have made public statements to the effect that casual drug users ought to be executed as traitors in the War On (users of certain unpatentable) Drugs. And how many Program parents have made remarks to the effect that we all needed a little brainwashing and responded to questions about the obvious risk to life and sanity by claiming that we all would have been dead anyway? I have no doubt that you're right. These sadistic lunatics would love to employ summary execution like the Taliban did. In fact, they publicly applauded that as well.
Quote
On 2003-05-13 11:53:00, ClayL wrote:Yeah, sort of. But most people who advocate the program either deny that any abuse occured or hold that the abuse is/was an unfortunate coincidence to an otherwise good and worthwhile program. I can say that when I was a fifth phaser, and leading up to that time, I believed that anyone who got sat on or marathoned deserved it. Even when it was happening to me, I looked at it like going to jail for an act of civil disobedience. I didn't complain about it happening to me. I brought it on intentionally as a demonstration of dissent. Even afterward, when I had a chance to make a statement of criminal acts against me or sue civilly, I couldn't see the sense of it. My head was just that scrambled at the time.
I believe Ms. Fay would have no problem with most of straight's record. After all, it was for the good of the children and they were helping families for God's sake!
And I think these people's heads are still that scrambled. I was just arguing with a former DA in another forum who stated that he'd gladly have his own son prosecuted if he were busted with drugs. Very sad. But that's what the situation is. These people are not just greedy, power hugry sadists. They're altruistic tyrants who believe their cause to be so just and so far above reproach as to justify everything and anything they do.
I'm not trying to make Calvina out to be a mean spirited person. I'm just trying to make the point that, whatever their intentions may be, their actual behavior is criminal.
Quote
On 2003-05-13 11:53:00, ClayL wrote:
Further, the Supreme Court has stated plainly the Internet is a place where free speech is rampant and must be held to a freer (sp?) standard. If I wish to take to task DFAF and the persons, especially public spokes-persons in DFAF's emloyee, then I am not only capable, but encouraged to do so. If Ms.Fay has such a thin skin, she should find another line of work!
Clay"
Yes, this is very, very true. In the event that they're not satisfied with the retraction and they decide to sue me anyway, there will be some fundraising to do.
Innocence implies the ability to restrain from the initiation of aggression, and to question those who don't.
Sorin Cucerai
Post by: sammiegirl on May 14, 2003, 12:32:00 PM
I reported this to the IRS and am awaiting a responce of the final investigation.
So in my opinion If you are a Non-profit using Gov. Money and the as stated that you must leave available to ALL citisens of the USA the afore said documents then their predjuice should be withholding and they IF THEY HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE should make this available.
Personaly I believe that Calvina Fay is just another pawn linning her pockets w/ monies from people that used our souls to gain profit and that if she had any descency left she would disaffiliate from these EVIL peole and make reperations for the many lives she ruins by continuing the STRAIGHT LEGACY
Samantha Monroe
And Calvina you have my address so please feel free to write me any time...
And Ps. I wonder if the IRS/and grant providers knows that you are wasting their monies on looking at the net instead of doing what your proposal for grant money was on your last report....
[ This Message was edited by: sammiegirl on 2003-05-14 09:33 ]
[ This Message was edited by: sammiegirl on 2003-05-14 09:35 ]
Post by: JDavid on May 14, 2003, 03:07:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-05-14 09:32:00, sammiegirl wrote:
I wonder if the IRS/and grant providers knows that you are wasting their monies on looking at the net instead of doing what your proposal for grant money was on your last report....
Post by: ehm on May 14, 2003, 03:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-05-14 09:32:00, sammiegirl wrote:
"also don't forget that when I went to the DFAF offices and asked for their 501c3 and other documents that should have been given to me immediatly through the TAX PAYERS BILL OF RIGHTS a FEDERAL STATUDE due. I was cornered and frightened and kicked out of the office w/out these papers. DFAF then called the police on me and had tried to have me trespassed. Which they couldn't do as I left as soon as they let me out of the corner of the office. A couple of days later I recieved a Letter from Calvina Fay telling me "My license to enter DFAF was revoked and if I entered the Bldg again they would prosecute to the fullest extent of the Law"
I reported this to the IRS and am awaiting a responce of the final investigation.
So in my opinion If you are a Non-profit using Gov. Money and the as stated that you must leave available to ALL citisens of the USA the afore said documents then their predjuice should be withholding and they IF THEY HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE should make this available.
Personaly I believe that Calvina Fay is just another pawn linning her pockets w/ monies from people that used our souls to gain profit and that if she had any descency left she would disaffiliate from these EVIL peole and make reperations for the many lives she ruins by continuing the STRAIGHT LEGACY
Samantha Monroe
And Calvina you have my address so please feel free to write me any time...
And Ps. I wonder if the IRS/and grant providers knows that you are wasting their monies on looking at the net instead of doing what your proposal for grant money was on your last report....
[ This Message was edited by: sammiegirl on 2003-05-14 09:33 ]
[ This Message was edited by: sammiegirl on 2003-05-14 09:35 ]"
You F-ing Rawwwk!
Tender as a lamb she is...
Post by: METALGOD8 on May 14, 2003, 07:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-05-13 17:06:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2003-05-13 11:53:00, ClayL wrote:
"Well if this doesn't seem like DFAF's standard operating proceedure.
Oh yeah! Let's not forget what happened to Radley Balko when he ran his interview with Sammie on http://foxnews.com/ (http://foxnews.com/) http://www.theagitator.com/straightfox.php (http://www.theagitator.com/straightfox.php)
Then there's the time, a couple of years ago, when Calvina tried to have Lester Grinspoon's medical license pulled because he admitted to smoking pot in a High Times interview.
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/8jcl/8JCL83.htm (http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/8jcl/8JCL83.htm)Quote
On 2003-05-13 11:53:00, ClayL wrote:
Their mouth piece well knows that the burden of proof in libel is on the plaintiff and the plaintiff must show ACTUAL harm. Not the supposed harm they seem to be taking issue to here. In my opinion I believe DFAF and the ilk who work for them would like to see the death penalty for smoking dope or perhaps thinking about a drink before driving.
That's actually documentable. Both DARE founder, Daryl Gates, and Wm. Bennett (the bookie of virtue) have made public statements to the effect that casual drug users ought to be executed as traitors in the War On (users of certain unpatentable) Drugs. And how many Program parents have made remarks to the effect that we all needed a little brainwashing and responded to questions about the obvious risk to life and sanity by claiming that we all would have been dead anyway? I have no doubt that you're right. These sadistic lunatics would love to employ summary execution like the Taliban did. In fact, they publicly applauded that as well.Quote
On 2003-05-13 11:53:00, ClayL wrote:
I believe Ms. Fay would have no problem with most of straight's record. After all, it was for the good of the children and they were helping families for God's sake!
Yeah, sort of. But most people who advocate the program either deny that any abuse occured or hold that the abuse is/was an unfortunate coincidence to an otherwise good and worthwhile program. I can say that when I was a fifth phaser, and leading up to that time, I believed that anyone who got sat on or marathoned deserved it. Even when it was happening to me, I looked at it like going to jail for an act of civil disobedience. I didn't complain about it happening to me. I brought it on intentionally as a demonstration of dissent. Even afterward, when I had a chance to make a statement of criminal acts against me or sue civilly, I couldn't see the sense of it. My head was just that scrambled at the time.
And I think these people's heads are still that scrambled. I was just arguing with a former DA in another forum who stated that he'd gladly have his own son prosecuted if he were busted with drugs. Very sad. But that's what the situation is. These people are not just greedy, power hugry sadists. They're altruistic tyrants who believe their cause to be so just and so far above reproach as to justify everything and anything they do.
I'm not trying to make Calvina out to be a mean spirited person. I'm just trying to make the point that, whatever their intentions may be, their actual behavior is criminal.Quote
On 2003-05-13 11:53:00, ClayL wrote:
Further, the Supreme Court has stated plainly the Internet is a place where free speech is rampant and must be held to a freer (sp?) standard. If I wish to take to task DFAF and the persons, especially public spokes-persons in DFAF's emloyee, then I am not only capable, but encouraged to do so. If Ms.Fay has such a thin skin, she should find another line of work!
Clay"
Yes, this is very, very true. In the event that they're not satisfied with the retraction and they decide to sue me anyway, there will be some fundraising to do.Innocence implies the ability to restrain from the initiation of aggression, and to question those who don't.
Sorin Cucerai
"
OK, well they cant get blood from a turnip, so unless you have wealth and fortune you have little to worry about. This is opinion, but what 600 bucks an hour attorney wants to be bothered by that? There are some highly successful survivors with lots of money, granted, but I doubt if the majority of us are rich and have millions in capital etc etc... What could they sue someone for anyway? I have a 89 Mack Midliner she (calvina) can have, no clutch and 3 flat tires, but the engine starts, and the airhorn works LOL....
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Anonymous on May 19, 2003, 03:19:00 PM
Post by: JDavid on May 19, 2003, 06:45:00 PM
Even your "innocent do no wrong" favorite actress is in this financial fascism racket, for example. She takes $20 million per movie while hundreds of interns slave away 10 to 14 hours a day doing shit jobs on the set. I know that has nothing to do with this. I just wanted to say it. :razz:
[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-19 15:59 ]
Post by: Froderik on May 19, 2003, 09:21:00 PM
Quote
Even your "innocent do no wrong" favorite actress is in this financial fascism racket, for example. She takes $20 million per movie while hundreds of interns slave away 10 to 14 hours a day doing shit jobs on the set. I know that has nothing to do with this. I just wanted to say it.It does and does not have something to do with the last post. I'd say it's relevant enough. Capitalism is completely fucked, but what is the answer? Anarcho-communism you say? If only that were true/possible. It seems the world (people) are far from good...if there is a way to make gains by screwing someone else, too many people are willing to do that. It disgusts me, too!
Quote
Being poor means your penalty is going to be a lot more severe, relatively. That's what the United States of Whatever is all about. Jack boots for the poor and phenomenal privilege for the wealthy who are only wealthy because they climb all over the poor
Very well put, by the way. Let's start our own nation! Stockpile your weapons though, cuz you'll damn sure need 'em, LOL!
Post by: ehm on May 19, 2003, 09:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-05-19 15:45:00, JDavid wrote:
"Being poor means your penalty is going to be a lot more severe, relatively. That's what the United States of Whatever is all about. Jack boots for the poor and phenomenal privilege for the wealthy who are only wealthy because they climb all over the poor.
Even your "innocent do no wrong" favorite actress is in this financial fascism racket, for example. She takes $20 million per movie while hundreds of interns slave away 10 to 14 hours a day doing shit jobs on the set. I know that has nothing to do with this. I just wanted to say it. :wstupid: :wstupid: :wstupid: :wstupid: :wstupid: :wstupid: :nworthy: No! Not Patricia!!! :roll: :wink:
Post by: Anonymous on May 21, 2003, 11:57:00 AM
Post by: METALGOD8 on May 21, 2003, 01:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-05-21 08:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"JDavid, you sound like a Communist. The wealthy are "only wealthy because they climb all over the poor."??? Where'd you get that closed-minded opinion? I don't know what Country you're referring to but it isn't the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. To coin MG8, "Love it or leave it" Comrade. YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!! :smokin: :???:
Post by: Froderik on May 21, 2003, 01:38:00 PM
Quote
To coin MG8, "Love it or leave it" Comrade.
Allright, I'd better "fess up" before war breaks out, lol. I recall using this phrase in a post sometime recently onthis board. I forget the context I used it in. (I just did a search on that phrase to locate that post, but no cigar.) Oh well, whatever. Either it was tongue-in-cheek, or I was trying to make a point. I forget which. But as my above response to JDavid's post testifies, I think that he made a good point. Can we deny that there is at least some truth in the statement in question? No, not all rich people are undeserving scumbags, but there are some that most certainly ARE. And as JDavid stated, I don't think that he espouses communism as we know it, just his own idealistic brand of 'communism'. Whatever. Let's just face it, it's a fucked-up world...
BTW, No one has taken me up on my idea of starting another 'WACO'...
What could possibly go wrong? :silly: :skull:
Post by: JDavid on May 21, 2003, 03:26:00 PM
Telling me to love it or leave it is apartheid mentality. A person's political dissent should never be put before the corporations which rule the world, regardless of who is right or wrong. Apartheid is extremely primitive and savage thinking.
You wave the flag; you waive your rights! America is nothing to be in love with unless you love establishing supremacy at the expense of the third world (study the World Bank and the IMF), or if you love corporate rule over the working class. Take a close look at the lobbyists our politicians are virtually employed by. Study some eminent domain cases where the corporation squashes the majority of local neighbors and plunks a franchise down at the entrance to their subdivision.
Wage slavery or the threat of enforced poverty is not a choice; it is a threat. There's nothing free about forcing people to aquire the means of survival from the wealthy.
Quote
On 2003-05-21 08:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"JDavid, you sound like a Communist. The wealthy are "only wealthy because they climb all over the poor."??? Where'd you get that closed-minded opinion? I don't know what Country you're referring to but it isn't the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. To coin MG8, "Love it or leave it" Comrade. YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!! :flame: "
Post by: Antigen on May 21, 2003, 05:05:00 PM
Ok, first, this is my country. I love it. I'm not going anywhere and neither are you. I wouldn't want you to, even though I disagree with you sometimes. That's just not what this country is all about. You say:
"You need to study capitalism and how it works in order to realize that it is true that people are only wealthy because they climb all over the poor."
Well, I don't really see it that way. Under a real free market, wealthy people get that way by providing something that others are willing to pay for. In order to secure wealth and prosperity under a real free market, you have to guard your reputation jealously. Otherwise, someone else will come along who can do whatever it is you do but who doesn't piss off the neighbors, polute the drinking water or whatever. Real competition is that comprehensive.
What we've got going now is no free market. Under our current system, wealthy people get that way by lobbying government to pass legislation that favors their interests while preventing almost everyone from ever even entering into the market to compete with them. Could you build a better motorcycle than Suzuki? If you had the interest and knew a bunch of other people with similar interests, sure, I think you probably could. Could you ever get it past Ralph Nadar? Rots a ruck, Commrad!
You say:
"If everyone had capital, there would be no use for the capitalist system".
Yes, that's the goal. For as many people as possible to be as prosperous as possible. We had that once. America was the envy and wonder of the world because just about any unfortunate refugee could wash up on the beach and, by the end of his days, have built something worth passing on to his kids. And he could pretty well count on actually leaving his life's work to his kids because the law only came into play when someone tried to take it against his will. Voluntary exchange was left alone. Only taking by coercion was frowned upon. Now, it's sort of the other way around. Earning a buck is seen by a lot of people as an evil ulterior motive while taking through eminent domain, taxation, mandated spending, etc. is seen as good and nobel effort to help the (ever growing number of) less fortunates.
You say:
"You wave the flag; you waive your rights! America is nothing to be in love with unless you love establishing supremacy at the expense of the third world (study the World Bank and the IMF), or if you love corporate rule over the working class. Take a close look at the lobbyists our politicians are virtually employed by. Study some eminent domain cases where the corporation squashes the majority of local neighbors and plunks a franchise down at the entrance to their subdivision."
I think you and I are defining our terms a little differently. You're using the name America asif it were interchangable with the USFG. I don't think that it is.
You say:
"Wage slavery or the threat of enforced poverty is not a choice; it is a threat. There's nothing free about forcing people to aquire the means of survival from the wealthy."
Well, the only alternative that I know of to letting everyone to aquire the means of survival for themselves is to take it by force and then decide how to dole it out. The way I see it, I've had just about all the government help I can stand. If there's one message I would like to send to the next generation of politicians, it would be this; Please stop helping me! Laissez nous faire!
The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Post by: JDavid on May 21, 2003, 06:00:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-21 15:11 ]
Post by: JDavid on May 21, 2003, 06:17:00 PM
We just need to remove the means of survival from the trading game is all it is. Wealth and prosperity should be redefined to where you are free to play the trading game if you want, in order to collect an abundance of non-essentials, but never restrict people from the means of survival in order to force them to provide it for you.
Quote
Well, I don't really see it that way. Under a real free market, wealthy people get that way by providing something that others are willing to pay for. In order to secure wealth and prosperity under a real free market, you have to guard your reputation jealously. Otherwise, someone else will come along who can do whatever it is you do but who doesn't piss off the neighbors, polute the drinking water or whatever. Real competition is that comprehensive.
[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-21 15:29 ]
Post by: METALGOD8 on May 21, 2003, 10:03:00 PM
I think the glory days are over and pretty soon there will be some serious unrest in the country due to the imbalance of financial success.
JDAVID? You think there will be a use for computers in that society of yours? I am just curious as I recycle them and do not want to lose another past time.
MG8 :smokin:
ps: thanks Alex, I was wonderin what they were talkin about.
Post by: Tampa survivor on May 21, 2003, 10:50:00 PM
people actually still think that way. Arrgg...can you feel the vibration as Jefferson spins in his grave and Patrick Henry is crawling out of his.
Hey good ole TOTALLY DISPROVEN MR Marx is cheering from his corner of hell.
Little Example:
I ride a BMW motorcyle. I guarentee that no co-op, hippie commune, or hobbyist engineers could put out ANYTHING close to this machine.
BMW was paid $15,000 to build it, a bunch of highly paid german people got paid to build it for me after BMW built a huge factory with shareholder dollars. After all is said and done, all benefit.
Shareholders values go up and they pay TAXES on that capital gain.
Workers of various stripes got paid. Sweetly paid at that. German craftsman don't come cheaply.
And I ride a cool bike, it outrides any homegrown, or semi-professional heap I have ridden, and I feel that it was worth every penny.
Thousands of people every year agree and buy one too.
Have you ever found socialist products famous for ingenuity, design, style or performance....
Hmm, Ever heard of a French, Russian, Swedish or Cuban motorcycle. Nope.
okay, lets try FRENCH Cars....
Renault, Citreon, uh, Peugeot...
Opps, they fell apart, sucked, and nobody wanted them.
Hmm, frenchmen toiling in the vineyards so my hard working ass gets a bottle of good Burgundy. I like that vision.
Oh, BTW, people who inherit money are more likely to be smart with money, and people who are raised around it may learn a lesson or two from whomever LEFT it to them. Genetics DOES matter. Education matters more.
I have a T-shirt from my Uncle Rick's company, very, very successful, thanks to his HARD WORK, good anticipation of the future of electronics back in 1975, and dedication from a team richly rewarded to make it happen.
The shirt says
"Success is just a matter of luck...
...ask any failure."
Bill
Post by: Froderik on May 21, 2003, 11:02:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on May 21, 2003, 11:11:00 PM
You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein
Post by: METALGOD8 on May 21, 2003, 11:50:00 PM
Post by: METALGOD8 on May 21, 2003, 11:54:00 PM
Post by: JDavid on May 22, 2003, 04:31:00 AM
Anarchism is nothing about hippie communes. Hippies were limited almost to primitivism due to a few factors. They jumped the gun and started their communes without preparation. They attempted to seal themselves off from society. Their communities were too small. They insisted upon each other to live a very limited life, while each person was required to contribute too much to the commune. They established these communes in areas surrounded by pure capitalism. They were basically too chicken shit to have a direct action revolution. Kropotkin wrote about these failures long before the hippies attempted their communes. I guess they didn't read up.
We wouldn't have to import BMW motorcycles if it wasn't so damn expensive to make equal or better bikes in America. It's too expensive to do that in the US because of land ownership, usury, workers who need high wages in order to pay their rent and mortgages (relatively much higher than other countries). The US is the most artificially bloated market on the planet.
Look at every single item in Toys R US. Everything is made in China by factory workers who work 14 to 18 hour shifts for 12 cents an hour. No fire escapes. They live 6 people in 10x10 dorms or in cubby holes. All so an American corporation can put an $8 price tag on a He-Man figure instead of an American-made $25 price tag on it.
Something is wrong when America can no longer create an item for a reasonable price... all rooted in corporate tyranny. Land, zoning, rent and mortgages are jacking prices up beyond belief, keeping us from accomplishing such things. Land owners and industrial complex developers should not have such a strong hand in the production of goods, but they do thanks to our government.
CEO's do not engineer and create this stuff. Politicians do not engineer and create it either. Workers do, so start giving them credit for engineering and machining an awesome motorcycle. Quit giving credit to people who do nothing but move money around and horde 400 to 1000 times more than they distribute to the engineers and machinists.
Homegrown, or semi-professional heaps are limited to what people can produce currently within the limits of what they have access to in the current system.
The engineers and machinists of the future do not want to create garbage. They want to create the most incredible equipment and vehicles possible. It's not just the Germans either. Americans want to also. The motorcycle you are talking about is an example of what they are capable of, and you do not need to threaten them with poverty to get them to do it. Even if you don't believe this, I don't care. I'm against threatening people with poverty just for the sake of building your damn motorcycle. If force is required to create something, then we need not create it.
Why are shareholders necessary? They aren't. Shareholders are parasites of the capitalist system with their only justification being that the manufacturers need investments in order to aquire resources in an artificially bloated market. Haven't I been talking about abolishing capital all along?
Create incredible motorcycles without all the useless FAT surrounding it. Create incredible motorcycles without threatening people with poverty.
You said: Have you ever found socialist products famous for ingenuity, design, style or performance....
My reply to that is: what kind of socialism are you talking about? It must be authoritarian socialism because that's all that has existed so far. Anarcho-communism has not happened yet. It will not be so destitute or limited without an authoritarian central power controling everything and hording damn near all of the capital gain. The key word I just stated is "limited". That's exactly what authoritarian communisms do to the people working within them. It limits them and what they are capable of producing. Where it does not limit them, it forces them to produce. Anarcho-communism is limitless except for what the Earth itself and physics limits us to.
Having had a spiritual awakening, I decided to share with others that the following countries are not (and never were) anarcho-communisms: France, Russia, Sweden or Cuba.
You seem to think "hard work" is a path to success. Would that be hard work for the benefit of executives and politicians? We should just outlaw "hard work" DIRECTLY for yourself and your local community then. Oh yeah, the capitalists already did that. You have to go serve your executive today so you can pay your mortgage company tomorrow. Maybe you can work directly for yourself a few hours on the two days per week they allow you to not serve them. Maybe you can directly benefit your community by volunteering, providing band-aids to the damage done by capitalism and get absolutely nothing in return. That's success alright. It's success for THEM.
Why not remove luck from the equation in order to be successful? Why not remove success from being a requirement in order to survive? When success is required to survive, and luck is required for success, you survive if you're lucky. I guess that's all great as long as you get to ride a BMW even though such things would exist without luck and success being required in order to survive.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
-- Darth Vader
Quote
On 2003-05-21 19:50:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
"OH MI GOD GINGER,
people actually still think that way. Arrgg...can you feel the vibration as Jefferson spins in his grave and Patrick Henry is crawling out of his.
Hey good ole TOTALLY DISPROVEN MR Marx is cheering from his corner of hell.
Little Example:
I ride a BMW motorcyle. I guarentee that no co-op, hippie commune, or hobbyist engineers could put out ANYTHING close to this machine.
BMW was paid $15,000 to build it, a bunch of highly paid german people got paid to build it for me after BMW built a huge factory with shareholder dollars. After all is said and done, all benefit.
Shareholders values go up and they pay TAXES on that capital gain.
Workers of various stripes got paid. Sweetly paid at that. German craftsman don't come cheaply.
And I ride a cool bike, it outrides any homegrown, or semi-professional heap I have ridden, and I feel that it was worth every penny.
Thousands of people every year agree and buy one too.
Have you ever found socialist products famous for ingenuity, design, style or performance....
Hmm, Ever heard of a French, Russian, Swedish or Cuban motorcycle. Nope.
okay, lets try FRENCH Cars....
Renault, Citreon, uh, Peugeot...
Opps, they fell apart, sucked, and nobody wanted them.
Hmm, frenchmen toiling in the vineyards so my hard working ass gets a bottle of good Burgundy. I like that vision.
Oh, BTW, people who inherit money are more likely to be smart with money, and people who are raised around it may learn a lesson or two from whomever LEFT it to them. Genetics DOES matter. Education matters more.
I have a T-shirt from my Uncle Rick's company, very, very successful, thanks to his HARD WORK, good anticipation of the future of electronics back in 1975, and dedication from a team richly rewarded to make it happen.
The shirt says
"Success is just a matter of luck...
...ask any failure."
Bill
"
[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-22 03:14 ]
Post by: Froderik on May 22, 2003, 09:46:00 AM
Quote
Why are shareholders necessary? They aren't. Shareholders are parasites of the capitalist system with their only justification being that the manufacturers need investments in order to aquire resources in an artificially bloated market. Haven't I been talking about abolishing capital all along?
I'm just curious...did you study economics or politics? Are you running for office? You should.
I mean that sincerely. If not that, then perhaps a journalist. Maybe you are one? What is your profession? (Sorry if you've stated this already)
Post by: Antigen on May 22, 2003, 01:41:00 PM
The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
Tacitus
Post by: Anonymous on May 22, 2003, 04:08:00 PM
Post by: Tampa survivor on May 22, 2003, 10:03:00 PM
Your farm use bike sounds like my old 82 honda nighthawk....ridden in Chicago snow, San Diego sand, abused and beaten, run over by a Chevy 4X4(with me on it) and then traded (after welding and torching the frame straight) to a shipmate for 200 bucks or something........
Enjoy it!!
Ginger,
Harley has fine style and a GREAT sound....
been there, done that burned the 98 Sportster shirt!!!
Capitalism cuts both ways:
Henderson motorcycles was started in 1998 by two fabulously wealthy Minnisota guys, reviving a name from the 1930's with a new product, the Henderson Super X. Unique, beautiful, WAY more power than a harley. A bikers dream. They dumped over 100 million into the plant and everything, but the bike did not sell fast enough to keep it all moving.
Unfortunately for them, Nader had little to do with it...market forces cut both ways and only reward excellence. The bike was just a touch too heavy, and the motor was awesome, but had reliability and quality problems. Lots of us bought other bikes waiting for them to get it just right.
OUCH to the Minnesota guys.
Nader is irrelevant. Has been and will be. It just kills me when he screws the Dems outta votes.
Bill
Post by: Tampa survivor on May 22, 2003, 10:10:00 PM
Why don't guys dicks get lower and lower over the years like so many other things do?
Post by: ehm on May 22, 2003, 10:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-05-22 10:41:00, Antigen wrote:
"How do you propose to remove capital? When you figure that out, please look into removing gravity. It's such a destructive force, especially after about 35 years of it.The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion"
Tacitus
Oooo! Ouch! Yeah...
Post by: Tampa survivor on May 22, 2003, 10:45:00 PM
Do you drive?
Do you use electricity?
Have heat in your home?
Oil gas or electric?
Eat anything other than what YOU or others you KNOW can produce?
How about use credit?
Your car is filled with highly complex, difficult to make parts. Thousands of different ones. Think about trying to make one.
Those electrons pushing photons into your face while you read this are produced by a huge monopolistic conglomerate, owned by shareholders. You can put a stinky diesel generator in. Costs about 30 times as much to make a KW hour yourself. Thats why nobody does it. Put in solar? Ha, better unplug the A/C. Makes the power company seem a bit nicer, eh?
Food. Hell, try to can something. Grow all you are able of what will grow in your area. Can it. Eat it all winter. See if by February you wish Chunky soup was still around in Annarchy Land.
Idealistically speaking I am Objectivist. Read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", or "The Fountainhead". In the political world, I am a libertarian. Read and learn about what that means. I bet you find somethings of interest.
http://libertarian.org/ (http://libertarian.org/)
Realistically, people don't WANT to be equal. I see your valid point about government communism. But somebody in that co-op will do a slightly better job at something than another, and get rewarded for it. Or want to be. Leads to dissent.
Eventually coercion results, and that has been the problem with all hive mentallity economic experiments.
Worker ants in a nest are truly equal in ability and desire; they are also cold enough to eat the lame or old ones. Not my kinda life.
Bill
Post by: JDavid on May 23, 2003, 04:27:00 AM
There are a lot of jobs which would disappear in the transition to anarchy. Executives, billing clerks, collections people, entire credit card agencies, mortgage companies, rent regimes, and on and on. All of those people could either die, become primitivists and live in tee-pees in the middle of nowhere, try to make their entire living in market socialism or join a commune and choose which industry they want to learn and participate in.
Anarcho-communism would not apply to everything. It is a way for everyone to gather and provide what everybody wants/needs without putting a price on it. Everyone wants/needs it, so everyone creates it. Imagining it leads me to conclusions that it will be hospitals/medicine, agriculture, raw materials, some construction, some machining, and utilities. Tool machining would be something done within the communes while the machinist could also deal in market socialism selling tools to non-communal jewelers, luthiers, pool installers, and whoever else they want to deal with.
The communal electrical plant could put a price on the juice sent to the jewlers, luthiers and other non-communal market operations, while the workers at the plant are all equal and can require that the funds be spread out equally with each person's hours worked making the only differences in pay.
In a heavily market/industrial area, the electrical plant could have the more condensed 500 employees, all equal, putting a price on all the juice, and getting paid evenly.
Regarding oil & gas: I read the other day that the energy crisis is bologna. I wish I had the energy to type it out right now. I'm also not really remembering enough details about it at this time. I'll get brushed up on it. I can get more into it later.
What we have now in the capitalist system is TONS more energy consumption than we would in anarchism. We currently have all people on the road at least twice a day, traveling 30 to 70 miles per day, in order to go to a corporation and burn up more energy overproducing to meet the demands of greedy executives. These people only do that to pay their rent and mortgages. We could create a 90% reduction in their necessity to be on the road in anarcho-communism. Plus, many people's necessity to be on the road would also be reduced by bringing their responsibilities much closer to home instead of having to go 40 miles toward the city to their job, sitting in traffic both ways. Sitting idle in traffic burns gas too, pointlessly. Let's get rid of rush hour, and reduce traffic related deaths too. Plus, stop making kids go to college AND work to pay rent simultaneously. That's a bunch of pointless driving that serves no one but the ruling class also.
It doesn't really matter how complex my car is. Executives and politicians did not create it. I already went over all that regarding a BMW motorcycle.
Hell no I don't use credit. I am in no debt whatsoever, but I also do not "have" anything. I don't consider living off of loans having, so I just don't "have". Everything I have is probably under $1000 except my car. I go out, make money, buy stuff, quit working until I need more money.
I've known all about the Libertarian party platform for years. You know they want to abolish Federal Reserve currency, right? Not that I'm against it, just wondering if you knew. Anyway, the Libertarian Party wants to keep the one thing in place that all Anarchists want to get rid of... wage slavery, which is will always exist as long as corporations own everything. The Libertarian Party has a whole lot of things right, but there are fundamentals there which keep us headed down the path to extreme corporate tyranny like never before. My life would not change one bit with them in power.
Political parties are always infected by the virus known as lobbyists. You cannot possibly accurately represent 285,000,000 people by condensing us to representation in Washington DC. Political parties just means taking turns passing every law you want to pass. The Libertarian party could get in there and remove a bunch of crap, but the Democrats and Republicans will come and re-install every bit of it a few years later. All people need to become congress. Let your imagination run wild on the idea of all people having a seat in congress. Forget the presidency. That office is useless.
Luckily, we are superior to ants, so we should act like it. We don't need a government or a corporate heirarcy or restrictions from the means of survival to tell us to not eat the lame or the old.
Quote
On 2003-05-22 19:45:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
"BTW, to our anachro communist....
Do you drive?
Do you use electricity?
Have heat in your home?
Oil gas or electric?
Eat anything other than what YOU or others you KNOW can produce?
How about use credit?
Your car is filled with highly complex, difficult to make parts. Thousands of different ones. Think about trying to make one.
Those electrons pushing photons into your face while you read this are produced by a huge monopolistic conglomerate, owned by shareholders. You can put a stinky diesel generator in. Costs about 30 times as much to make a KW hour yourself. Thats why nobody does it. Put in solar? Ha, better unplug the A/C. Makes the power company seem a bit nicer, eh?
Food. Hell, try to can something. Grow all you are able of what will grow in your area. Can it. Eat it all winter. See if by February you wish Chunky soup was still around in Annarchy Land.
Idealistically speaking I am Objectivist. Read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", or "The Fountainhead". In the political world, I am a libertarian. Read and learn about what that means. I bet you find somethings of interest.
http://libertarian.org/ (http://libertarian.org/)
Realistically, people don't WANT to be equal. I see your valid point about government communism. But somebody in that co-op will do a slightly better job at something than another, and get rewarded for it. Or want to be. Leads to dissent.
Eventually coercion results, and that has been the problem with all hive mentallity economic experiments.
Worker ants in a nest are truly equal in ability and desire; they are also cold enough to eat the lame or old ones. Not my kinda life.
Bill"
[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-23 02:19 ]
Post by: Froderik on May 23, 2003, 08:27:00 AM
"did you study economics or politics? Have you ever considered journalism as an occupation? How do you 'bring home the bacon?'" I'm not trying to goof on you in any way, just curious...
Post by: JDavid on May 23, 2003, 03:56:00 PM
One thing I do is renovation jobs, mostly interior/exterior paint or wallpaper, bathroom tear-outs, kitchen installations & junk like that whenever renovators I know need someone extra. I don't want to do it all the time, so I avoid joining some full-time crew.
I get calls from people around here to repair their networks or workstations. One of them is Pinetree Country Club. I know both of their networks inside & out. I've built or done major repairs on some of their computers too.
I did a chunk of the web development at rentphilly.com. That was a ColdFusion job. I saw their ad and claimed I knew ColdFusion. Once they said "ok here's what we need", I had to cram and learn ColdFusion in about 4 days.
In recent months, I have also installed audio systems in stores... you know the circular speakers with the white grills in ceiling tiles? Running wires everywhere, figuring out how to make the lefts & rights balanced without wiring inline or screwing with the ohmage of the speakers & all that.
No I didn't study economics or politics in any school, except the high school crap they teach in public, government run schools.
My major in tech school was programming. I was already writing Windows and DOS software in C++ before I went into tech school. The first language I learned was Pascal... the language Legend of the Red Dragon was written in. So, I graduated tech school with Honors, but the market was saturated by then.
The final C++ job I did was one where I worked on it for 3 months, sent the bill in to get paid, and never got paid. I was doing an awesome job on it too. Everyone knew I still had 6 more months to finish it. I was supposed to be getting paid a huge chunk each 3 months. I was 28, so that was 2 years ago.
Quote
On 2003-05-23 05:27:00, AlexL wrote:
"I know this has gotten to be quite an intense topic here, but you never answered my question -
"did you study economics or politics? Have you ever considered journalism as an occupation? How do you 'bring home the bacon?'" I'm not trying to goof on you in any way, just curious..."
Post by: Antigen on May 23, 2003, 04:53:00 PM
But, when you write off Nadar as irrelavent, here's the great unknown. I use his name as a symbol for like-minded government interferance with the free market. So I'm not just talking specifically about regulations with which he's had direct involvement. I'm talking about the whole range of stupid bureaucrat tricks that draw resources and stack the deck against the important aspects of the market.
I don't know if Henderson was a superior bike. I don't know if it might have been a better bike to begin with or if they might have been able to tweak it properly if they hadn't had to throw money, time, energy and design compromises into meeting the government regulations involved in getting raw material, building and maintaining a facility, hiring and compensating craftsmen, counting all those beans and taking on the various kinds of liability that our current system requires of anyone who sells anything to anyone. Have you bought a laddar lately? I have half a mind to buy one, carefully read all the required labels, find a way to hurt myself while following all of the warnings and recomendations then sue the hell out of OSHA for failing to warn me, for example, not to try to use the product on the back of an open pick up moving at the posted speed limit on an interstate highway.
Point is, how much differently would we all do business and conduct ourselves without all the bullshit? That is what a free market looks like. Nothing like what we've got going now.
What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud
Post by: Antigen on May 23, 2003, 04:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-05-22 19:10:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
"GINGER:
Why don't guys dicks get lower and lower over the years like so many other things do?
"
They don't? Wow, I guess I'm luckier than I ever knew. Thanks, TS! :grin:
Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler
Post by: Anonymous on May 23, 2003, 06:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2003-05-23 01:27:00, JDavid wrote:
Instead of about 500 employees with a 40 our week each at today's electrical plant, an anarchist idea would be to saturate the electrical plant with a lot more workers working a lot less hours. 500 people with 40 hour work weeks is 20,000 hours. Change from a vertical world to a horizontal one, you can get 5000 people to work 4 hour work weeks, or one 8 hour day every two weeks.
The trouble with that is that, instead of having 500 people who are reasonably familiar with daily operations (including navigating around personality conflicts and other non-technical issues) you get 5000 people who can't possibly have a comprehensive understanding of how to run an electrical plant or a motive to invest themselves in it.
Quote
I've known all about the Libertarian party platform for years. You know they want to abolish Federal Reserve currency, right? Not that I'm against it, just wondering if you knew.
Yes, I did know that.
Quote
Anyway, the Libertarian Party wants to keep the one thing in place that all Anarchists want to get rid of... wage slavery, which is will always exist as long as corporations own everything. The Libertarian Party has a whole lot of things right, but there are fundamentals there which keep us headed down the path to extreme corporate tyranny like never before. My life would not change one bit with them in power.
I think you're mistaken. I consider a wage slave as someone who must work for the only game in town with no oportunity to go into competitive business or choose another employer. This situation didn't exist before the New Deal.
Quote
Political parties are always infected by the virus known as lobbyists. You cannot possibly accurately represent 285,000,000 people by condensing us to representation in Washington DC. Political parties just means taking turns passing every law you want to pass. The Libertarian party could get in there and remove a bunch of crap, but the Democrats and Republicans will come and re-install every bit of it a few years later. All people need to become congress. Let your imagination run wild on the idea of all people having a seat in congress. Forget the presidency. That office is useless.
Luckily, we are superior to ants, so we should act like it. We don't need a government or a corporate heirarcy or restrictions from the means of survival to tell us to not eat the lame or the old.
Right. I think the best idea the Libs have going is to encourage everyone to get involved on the local level. Phuck the presidency. We all know that a vote for the Lib candidate for president is an effective vote for "none of the above". Not that that's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. I do it every 4 years, regardless.
I think the most effective and peaceful way to dismantle the most destructive aspects of government with minimal disruption is for everyone to get as involved as possible in local government. When people are more invested in their own local affairs, with which they can be familiar enough to make sensible choices, and less invested in national affairs, where will they find people willing to enforce Federal regulations that are counter to local interests?
Post by: JDavid on May 23, 2003, 07:31:00 PM
I consider a wage slave as someone who must work for the only game in town with no oportunity to go into competitive business or choose another employer. This situation didn't exist before the New Deal.
The only game in town is money.
They do not have the opportunity to go into competitive business because they must first aquire approval from rent regimes, and rent regimes know how to squeeze every last bit of profit from them if they do so.
Choosing another employer is the same old shit, different day. Rent stays the same (or increases, it never decreases), same goes for the mortgage. The whole set of conditions which makes people "have" to find/choose an employer is authoritarian/capitalist/vertical in the first place. To find/choose an employer is to serve the ruling class in any capitalist environment. Restricting access to the means of survival is fascism, because it is forcing people to work for rulers.
Local decision making is practically anarchism, except the policies can be changed instantly by the majority. Remove capitalism from the equation, and you disable corrupt motives. Corrupt motives are why we have TONS of policies instead of a few simple ones. Libertarians do not want to remove capitalism.
Post by: JDavid on May 24, 2003, 06:55:00 AM
We could keep everything on the market in an anarchist world and trade with funds much like we do now, but without government. We could even hire "police" groups (and fund their academies) to uphold policies agreed upon by the neighbors in anarchy, and instantly fire them if they started enforcing extra policies.
I have a theory I will start a new thread with later which does support a market for everything, including the means of survival, but it is a non-bloated market. Gimme a day or two and I'll put it up once I'm done with it and see if the hardcore anarcho-communists can punch any holes in it.
[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-24 04:01 ]
Post by: METALGOD8 on May 24, 2003, 10:44:00 AM
MG8 :smokin:
Post by: Froderik on May 24, 2003, 11:21:00 AM
Will computers be a part of JDavid's new society? I should think so, seeing as he's a super-geek! But only time will tell...the clock's ticking...
*Social Security Administration
[ This Message was edited by: AlexL on 2003-05-24 08:23 ]
Post by: Anonymous on June 05, 2003, 03:01:00 AM
Not that you don't make valid points though. Have you ever read "billions for bankers - debts for the people". My friend was telling me that (according to this book) individuals names are capitalized to represent a "taxable corporation" and corporations names are not capitalized as to represent a non taxable individual (!) so that they can support political parties with funding! You mentioned the corruption of banks and I thought maybe you'd enjoy this book. I need to borrow it and refamiliarize myself with it. Good night, dude, got to work in the AM unloading trucks for $8.50/hour and find a way to donate my plasma this weekend so my family can eat, it's pathetic indeed.
Post by: Tampa survivor on June 05, 2003, 11:48:00 PM
The brilliance of a representative government with bicameral, offset term elections is that it eliminates mob rule.
With majority rule, the civil rights movement would've died before it started.
Bill Clinton would've been wrongly thrown from office for personal dalliances. Too bad the perjury did not stick: that would've been legit..
We would be subject to the mob.
All around the world, Amnesty International exposes the dangers of being in the minority view.
Ask a Sudanese christian.
How about a white Zimbabwian farmer.
Whole shitload of guilloteened Frenchman....
This could go on. Popular rule has long been proven a very bad thing. Unless you are in the MAJORITY of the moment.
Post by: mithygato on June 06, 2003, 02:02:00 AM