Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: psy on May 07, 2007, 02:15:08 PM
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Jena Martin Wrote, via Email:
Psy,
I have edited your posts and you have once again been banned from Strugglingteens.com.
When I reinstated you, it was with the self-imposed condition that you no longer post in the Parenting Issues forum. Despite the fact that it was your idea, you have failed to abide by that boundary.
I am also banning you because of your participation in the ST vs. Fornits game. You may not have transferred the post, but, based on your posted comments, you are obviously involved in some way. That whole game is so disruptive to ST, not to mention how destructive it is to the Fornits agenda, and it just needs to stop. I know I can't stop it, but I sure won't stand by and allow forum members to participate in it.
Jena Martin
Forum Moderator
Well... I've had enough. I let the bitch have it:
On May 7, 2007, at 3:21 AM, Jena Martin wrote:
> Psy,
>
> I have edited your posts and you have once again been banned from
> Strugglingteens.com.
> When I reinstated you, it was with the self-imposed condition that
> you no longer post in the Parenting Issues forum. Despite the fact
> that it was your idea, you have failed to abide by that boundary.
You did not insist on it. And where I posted, I posted with
respect. Did anybody complain... Save maybe Mose, who I have tried
to contact privately and talk to, to figure out why she hates me.
She has repeatedly attacked ME and I have not complained because i
respect free speech.
"I detest what you say, but will defend to the death your right to
say it" - Voltaire
> I am also banning you because of your participation in the ST vs.
> Fornits game. You may not have transferred the post, but, based on
> your posted comments, you are obviously involved in some way.
Do you have any proof? Thought not. Good thing you didn't publish
that.
> That whole game is so disruptive to ST, not to mention how
> destructive it is to the Fornits agenda, and it just needs to stop.
So disruptive to the Fornits agenda??!?! I find it impossible to
believe you care, considering 99% of fornits is dead set against what
you do, who you are associated with, and what you represent.
Moreover... Fornits is an _open_ forum where people are free to speak
their opinion without fear of censorship. If you want, you can
become a part of the "Fornits agenda". It's not closed, controlled,
edited, manipulated, glossed-over, or propagandized like ST.
This Makes you look bad. Not me, and not fornits. Nobody is
complaining but the local management (You, Lon, et al) getting
uppidy about my posts hitting a little too close to home. It's a
good thing I archive not just my posts, but the entire threads.
Revisionism is one of program's best friends.
Do not try and censor my ideas because they conflict with your own
agenda. They did that in program and I will never let that happen to
me again. Either let me speak my peace, respectfully, wherever I
please, to whomever I please, or get ready to become my new pet
project. And you do NOT want that. I may have my time occupied
crucifying Benchmark, but I can always find time to show a little
love to those who send kids to be brainwashed, knowing full well what
goes on. You protect programs by censoring their names... hiding
behind the guise of legal liability. You and I both know that
service providers are not responsible for their user's content, and
libel is up to a court to decide, not an Educational consultant with
a (barely) hidden agenda.
And don't think I'm afraid of your petty legal copyright threats. By
all means. Try me. My lawyer will rip you apart. Oh ... and try
getting verification of IP addresses from Ginger. Hope you like the
Dewey Cheatham and Howe Page. And you get to meet some of my fine
lawyer friends who just love educational consultants to death,
especially considering one of them was a survivor of a school you
should be very familiar with.
You have been warned. If you don't believe I'm serious, ask Jayne
Longnecker. I am not your typical program dropout.
Oh. and If you're trying to protect Benchmark from that fairly long
post in "Skills at TBS".... You can be damn sure I won't forget that.
> I know I can't stop it, but I sure won't stand by and allow forum
> members to participate in it.
Then why don't you ban those who started the discussion of fornits.
It wasn't me.
Can't you find a good reason to ban me.. Like an actual offense.
This smacks of censorship.
Right now. I'm being rude. Right now. I'm being confrontational.
Were you in a TBS? When I was in raps i would rip people apart. I
was satan in raps. I humiliated _staff_. Keep that in mind when you
judge my posts for content. I try to be very respectful to posters
on ST, regardless of how much I disagree with them. The Amish thing
was _not_ a joke. NOT a joke. This has been done before.
Expect this to be posted (as well as all previous communication with
Lon) on Fornits If I am not un-banned by 2PM est (yeah.. you might
want to ask Lon about that...).
Having forgotten something, hit reply again and wrote:
PS: Karen and I are friends. That now now comment was said with a smile...
"Psy is a college student who was sent to a program by his parents several years ago. He is a strong advocate for NOT placing a teen in any program. He believes (with good reason) that the particular program he was in was abusive and harmed him. He has educated himself extensively on the roots of teen help programs and it is his sincere belief that they all have great potential for harm. He can explain himself more to you, but this is the Cliff's Notes version of why he participates on this forum. He is articulate, intelligent and respectful, but he does have strong opinions. [Smile]"
Is that what you Ban me for? When that is what other posters think of me.
If you have any proof that I was the one to post that.. come forth with it. Otherwise, don't expect me to write up a dirt list. I'm done with program, and I don't snitch on friends for arbitrary infractions of absurd rules created for the purpose of creating an illusion of control. Accuse me publicly of posting that, and I will very gladly sue you for libel.
For your reading pleasure... this is the post she edited.. deleted highlighted in green:
@SoSadMom
You can't be serious.... But hey. Between a program and foster parents. I'd have chosen the latter. Why not ask some Amish? Seriously! They're religiously obliged to take your kid in if you ask them, and you can be sure they'll be treated well. Maybe they can Exorcize your kid. It's about as scientifically sound as most programs' methods.
(source (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2004/4/sixties0404.html) est.. Lifespring... Synanon.. all cults (i can cite sources for this if people want). oh wow... that's impressive.)
@Twiglet:
Pot is a plant. So-called "skunk" is simply a well-bred plant (a purer strain of Indica usually). It's not "15 times stronger" or anything of the sort. It's just like some coffee beans have slightly more caffeine. Selective breeding can only do so much. In any case, it simply means a person smokes less of it to get the same effect. To my knowledge there have been no studies done citing permanent damage caused by pot. There have been studies done citing a correlation between schizophrenia and marijuana usage, but it is not clear whether or not marijuana causes schizophrenia (very unlikely) or whether schizophrenics prefer to self medicate using marijuana.
You say his usage was "out of control" and yet it didn't affect his studies. Furthermore, you didn't even notice it. Experimentation with drugs is not exactly abnormal during the teenage years, and "heavy user" is a very subjective phrase, especially when organizations parents look to for education such as "DARE", or the "Drug Free America Foundation" were/are funded in part/chiefly by the very same people who bring you some programs. (Can't mention them here. PM me if you want details)
Most people grow out of it. Everybody tries it. It scares parents. That's natural. This does not mean "let them"... But please... Don't send them to program for it. There are many other options.
Disclaimer: No, I do not smoke pot but my dad did in the 60s(Apparently, it was quite common around during that era), and he's fine now. So did many of my coworkers and fellow college students. Most get bored of it (especially when they can drink, which is far more potent and harmful (cirrhosis, physical addiction, poisoning).
So.. Hands up... what do you think I was banned for?
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None of the above...you pissed off Mose, you and that damned Overrlord guy with your Fornits agenda, scaring away business.
Hmm..I made a weird typo..."Fornists" We are all Fornists.
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Sorry about this latest banning. I don't get it.
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Sorry about this latest banning. I don't get it.
I do. totally. Remember what I said about pissing in the pool.
The last thing Lonnie boy wants is a person tipping parents off in terms of what questions they might want to ask regarding a TBS. Take for example that blatant piece of propoganda that woman's daughter posted. I bet she will find out that the girl either had ulterior motives, or she was pressured into advertising for the school. I may be wrong. But I doubt Lon wants to take that chance. I'm bad for his business. It's that simple.
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None of the above...you pissed off Mose, you and that damned Overrlord guy with your Fornits agenda, scaring away business.
Hmm..I made a weird typo..."Fornists" We are all Fornists.
It's "fornitscators"... coined by :wink: :wink:
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Psy, you made your case clearly every time on ST and made a friend out of Karen. :o
Being banned is proof you were influential. Nothing is worse for the "industry" than a person who knows the evil first-hand and can mount a lucid and sensible argument against it.
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Psy, you made your case clearly every time on ST and made a friend out of Karen. :o
Being banned is proof you were influential. Nothing is worse for the "industry" than a person who knows the evil first-hand and can mount a lucid and sensible argument against it.
I know... I get flattered each time they ban me. It's a compliment really.
Hey. there are now three posters endorsing my Amish idea:
check this out (http://http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001353;p=1#000018)
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Psy, you made your case clearly every time on ST and made a friend out of Karen. :o
Being banned is proof you were influential. Nothing is worse for the "industry" than a person who knows the evil first-hand and can mount a lucid and sensible argument against it.
I know... I get flattered each time they ban me. It's a compliment really.
Hey. there are now three posters endorsing my Amish idea:
check this out (http://http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001353;p=1#000018)
They sound like a bunch of Parents who want to send their Kid away or already have.
How creepy, you must have a strong stomach, Psy.
LOL.. That's exactly what I told Karen...
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Yeah, but do they get to run amok at 16 like the other Amish kids during Rumspringa? My wife and I watched "The Devil's Playground", a documentary on Amish kids who get to taste the "English" world when they hit 16. They throw some monster parties, up to 1500 drunk kids speaking Pennsylvania Dutch, smoking weed, meth, etc.
Surprisingly, most of the kids get a good dose of the modern world and decide to take the vows of the Amish faith and renounce worldly things.
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Bah.
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Yeah psy you have an iron stomach and the patience of a mountain. I tried my hand at ST but got physically sick after a week. ST parents seem like the kind of people my mother warns me against making babies with. Have you ever heard the phrase about "planting a seed" or some such? Well I crown you the johnny apple seed of (un)common-sense, lord knows ST needs it...
Who knows you may just save a life or a psyche...
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I'll be back on ST one of these days. I've got something in the works. It will be most amusing.
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Sorry about this latest banning. I don't get it.
The first step is admitting that you have a problem.
Also - thats why we can't stand you!
You're really moving along quite nicely. Seems you CAN learn through osmosis.
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Just got a mail from Jena and responded... Hope she feels the love.
From: Michael Crawford
Date: May 8, 2007 2:09:31 AM EDT
To: Jena Martin
Subject: Re: Your Posts at Strugglingteens.com
On May 7, 2007, at 9:41 PM, Jena Martin wrote:
I did not accuse you of posting. I accused you of participating in the ST vs. Fornits game and being involved in some way.
This was my latest, and only post regarding fornits posted in the Parental advice section:
"
Icon 1 posted May 06, 2007 11:56 PM Profile for psy Author's Homepage Email psy Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Now now Karen... Many of the posters over there find it difficult to stomach this site. There is always the fear that: "oh my god.... where is she going to send him/her..." It's a roll of the dice.
My parents were careful. They trusted an educational consultant. That educational consultant had alternative relations with the program in question. As a result, what was supposed to have been a "Boarding School"... Wasn't.
Lots of parents talk about how they are afraid that thier kids will end up dead, insane, or in-jail (not a cliche). I imagine that fear is somewhat similar to that which many Fornits posters feel when they read this site. Though you may hate the language, coarse content, and general distaste for program parents though you may; there is a general concern for the welfare of your kids, whether you believe that or not... Which fear is irrational? That is the main difference in general opinion between ST and Fornits.
...
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That post was intended to diffuse, not increase tension between ST and Fornits. Furthermore, I did not have knowledge of the re-post on Fornits until it was posted. After it was posted. I asked a certain person if it was he/she and found out who did it. That is not "being involved" in the action of the posting, but rather "inquiring about".
Such accusation was made due to your own comments in your post. Sue away.
Well you did not post a reason for my banning at all, so there is no reason to.
You were reinstated upon your own self-imposed conditions. If those are arbitrary rules...well, you came up with them. What am I supposed to do about that?
I offered a lot of things when I was negotiating for re-enstatement, however you, nor lon did not insist on anything, merely stating:
"Michael,
I am sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I wanted to think about your request for reinstatement before taking action.
I will allow you to return to ST. I think you understand the rules and are willing to adhere to them.
Jena"
"The rules" for posters does not include "no posting in the parental advice section of the forum". You should have clarified had you wanted me to follow additional rules. You let Overlordd post in the parental advice section. You let other people who are not parents post. Just not me.
Your threats fall upon deaf ears. I am not a hysterical newbie to the internet. I have been the target of various trolls, flamers and various other internet trash and never suffered a scratch. Personally, I'm not worried.
You misunderstand the nature of my threats. I do not intend to do anything illegal or unethical. I merely intend to put ST under a microscope and publicize my findings. In addition, you, not personally, but ST as a whole, has earned a part in my upcoming senior project (3d animation) about this industry. I do good caricatures. You won't be flattered.
If your threats were against Strugglingteens.com,. then it would be an issue between Lon and yourself and I suppose your lawyers.
Well my threats are against strugglingteens.com in general. But unless you do anyting illegal, or state anything libelous about me, i will leave the lawyers out of it.
There are many things about me, my role at ST and why things are done the way they are that you do not understand and make no effort to learn about. Your wild assumptions have sent you way off base, but people will believe what they want to believe. If you ever would like to know the truth...ask away. I am not the enemy you think I am.
Ok. I have a few questions:
you and your role:
Why aren't program names allowed to be mentioned. I have already stated reasons why it's not because you're worried about legal culpability. So what then is the reason?
Why don't you want me posting in the parental advice section of the forum?
the way things are done:
The IECA includes program owners on it's board of directors. Correct?
The IECA receives donations from programs. Correct?
The IECA recommends programs or families of programs. Correct?
Lon Woodbury is a member of the IECA. Correct?
Lon Woodbury gets more business as a member of the IECA than if he were independent. Correct?
NATSAP is associated with the IECA. Correct?
NATSAP also has program owners on it's board of directors (not coincidentally, some of the very same that are on IECA's board). Correct?
Lon Woodbury refers to NATSAP schools. Correct?
NATSAP does not inforce it's "principles of good practice". Correct?
NATSAP does not investigate complaints of abuse. Correct?
NATSAP lobbies for industry self-regulation and against state controls that could help prevent abuse. Correct?
Lon Woodbury argues for industry self-regulation. Correct?
Lon Woodbury is a member of the industry. Correct?
Lon Woodbury does not react to complaints of abuse unless they have been substantiated by the state.
Kids cannot call the police in many programs. Correct?
Lon Woodbury, by arguing against inspections and regulation by the state, and at the same time, expecting the state to substantiate abuse, has absolved himself of any and all responsibility (and substantially decreased the likelyhood of embarrassment) for the placement of his client's children.
Functionally, both NATSAP and IECA function to put parent's mind at ease, assuring them that their members, both programs and consultants respectively, follow largely unenforceable (honor code) "principles of good practice". Correct?
What other function do such principles serve if there is no method of enforcement, and indeed, enforceable regulations are actively lobbied against?
As I'm describing it, could the partnership between IECA, NATSAP, and associated schools be seen as unethical?
Hypothetically, Since the IECA has no effective method of investigating it's members other than ethics boards based on reports of unethical behavior, if Lon Woodbury were taking "finder's fees" from industry schools (say... a check in the mail), nobody would ever know. Correct.
Even if he doesn't, He doesn't have to, since he gets lots of business by being part of "the club" (NATSAP, IECA) et al. It is in his interest to maintain that networking. correct?
You wanted questions...
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Your threats fall upon deaf ears. I am not a hysterical newbie to the internet. I have been the target of various trolls, flamers and various other internet trash and never suffered a scratch. Personally, I'm not worried.
Jena the Teflon Queen of Mean. "Internet trash"? I guess that's how she views posters on ST who have a different opinion? I'm a little more irritated with the ST folks as I read this thread. Some retaliation seems in order, a solid punishment for being obtuse.
If Lon's serious about the slipshod BM's popping up, he should make it the topic of his next ST "opinion". He won't, it might run off potential advertising dollars.
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Jenna once told the mother of a bipolar pregnant girl to kick her out
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Oh, shit, they've re-vamped ST. This is a disgusting bit:
*Categories above include
Paid advertisers.
Inclusion on Strugglingteens.com does not imply any endorsement by Woodbury Reports, Inc.
A nice Pontius Pilate touch, huh? Lon's hands are blood-free...
They're becoming downright arrogant over there, too. Larry Stednitz isn't a "victim" of anything. The New Standard's retraction sounds like it was done under legal duress. Michelle Chen is no hack journalist, and her copy would have been reviewed and checked, that's basic protocol, especially dealing with a touchy bunch like the "industry". Stednitz was "gotten" and couldn't deal with the embarrassment and possible financial losses, but that's just speculation.
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Jenna once told the mother of a bipolar pregnant girl to kick her out
But she wouldn't dare Send her kid to the Amish.. God forbid!
I would hope that before anyone sent their kid to live with the Amish they would do some research, especially if that kid is a girl.
I would never do that to my kid.
Jena
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Oh, shit, they've re-vamped ST. This is a disgusting bit:
*Categories above include
Paid advertisers.
Inclusion on Strugglingteens.com does not imply any endorsement by Woodbury Reports, Inc.
A nice Pontius Pilate touch, huh? Lon's hands are blood-free...
Pontius Pilate couldn't stop the crucifiction. The local opinion, and law, that the romans respected, dictated death. Apparantly ... Jeebus didn't have good PR people at the time. Lon... He won't stop... Like I said:
"Lon Woodbury, by arguing against inspections and regulation by the state, and at the same time, expecting the state to substantiate abuse, has absolved himself of any and all responsibility (and substantially decreased the likelyhood of embarrassment) for the placement of his client's children. "
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Your threats fall upon deaf ears. I am not a hysterical newbie to the internet. I have been the target of various trolls, flamers and various other internet trash and never suffered a scratch. Personally, I'm not worried.
Jena the Teflon Queen of Mean. "Internet trash"? I guess that's how she views posters on ST who have a different opinion? I'm a little more irritated with the ST folks as I read this thread. Some retaliation seems in order, a solid punishment for being obtuse.
My guess is that they'll respond through Lon's newsletter like they did last time (remember his article on "spin" immediately after they banned me last time and I posted the reasons on Fornits. They read this site diligently.). They banned me for telling the parents what they don't want them to hear... And like program, they can only manipulate parents if they control communcation. God damn ST operates like a program.
If Lon's serious about the slipshod BM's popping up, he should make it the topic of his next ST "opinion". He won't, it might run off potential advertising dollars.
No.. He'll probably do an article on the "principles of good practice".
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Just fired off another to Jena...
Fornits posters are not happy you banned me. Multiple ST posters have contacted me via email to express their disgust.
Let me quote one of them:
"I feel badly that you got banned. I know part of you doesn't
care, but I really think you tried to be civil. I guess Jena and Lon
just don't want any debate. That's a shame, because the industry needs
it."
And it's not who You think it is. I've been talking to your locals... And they read Fornits. They may not post, but they read Fornits.
The more you ban me, the more you try and shut me up, the more you look guilty in the eyes of not just fornits posters, but those on ST as well. An insurrection is where you are headed if you keep me banned. Your program tactics (manipulating of the parents) only work by controlling communication. You know this, so you keep me on "bans" with them. Similar to a program, where those with too much "negativity" are in some fashion cut off... preventing the "disease" of independent thought from spreading.
You banned me because you what I have to say, you don't want parents to hear. Just like a program. Peer pressure is far more effective than any blatant technique of influence. By eliminiting those who don't share opinions (banning, editing, deleting posts) you make sure your forum is populated only with those who "tow the party line". One that makes you money. Presenting alternatives is out of the question. Again.. As I have said many times.. Every kid is right for a TBS in your eyes.... You're blinded by greed, rationalized away as "the only way" so you can sleep at night. Take a good hard look at what happens to the kids you help send to TBS. Of course you didn't have to be there. You didn't have to look in their eyes. You can pretend they never existed. I remember... and I won't let you forget.
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Let's invite Jena to post her comments here, she doesn't have to worry about being banned. Not the usual anonymous posts, either. Say what you have to say in your defense, Jena. Nothing scratches you, so scratch away at us...
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Jena only hides the truth from those who already hide from it anyway.
Anyone who wants to know what is going on could see what ST is really about with a glance.
All this is is drama, because ST is a little heavy handed and Psy played by the rules so well they had to just arbitrarily ban him.
ST is a program, it controls communication, isolates, redefines, uses buzzwords, and basically inverts accountability to the victim.
Which is what we've said for years.
:roll: If anyone "comes around" as a result of this they knew in the back of their mind something was wrong, and this was just the trigger to make them finally listen to themselves and not to the econs/programs/lon.
We know you're reading, and we know you know you can't stop your readers from coming here, you can just stem the tide of how many know of fornits... but its inevitable.
The truth has a funny way of getting out, Lon... even to you. How long are you going to lie to yourself?
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I'm not surprised
You speak your mind and make sense whilst doing so ..... you are damaging the industry, someone should have you shot at dawn for this :roll:
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Jena only hides the truth from those who already hide from it anyway.
Anyone who wants to know what is going on could see what ST is really about with a glance.
All this is is drama, because ST is a little heavy handed and Psy played by the rules so well they had to just arbitrarily ban him.
ST is a program, it controls communication, isolates, redefines, uses buzzwords, and basically inverts accountability to the victim.
Which is what we've said for years.
:roll: If anyone "comes around" as a result of this they knew in the back of their mind something was wrong, and this was just the trigger to make them finally listen to themselves and not to the econs/programs/lon.
Without communication control, program dies. Same with any structure like it.
We know you're reading, and we know you know you can't stop your readers from coming here, you can just stem the tide of how many know of fornits... but its inevitable.
The truth has a funny way of getting out, Lon... even to you. How long are you going to lie to yourself?
I've toyed with that notion... Fool or Knave... Fool or Knave... It doesn't really matter, the result is the same.
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In this one she gives more details on my banning... no I didn't make this shit up:
we are not against differing points of view and we are not against information, but our primary purpose must be maintained. The forum is to be a place for parents to find information and support. It is not to further any agenda...it is simply exactly what it is.
Something missing there... OH! right... logic!
I don't want any parent making the decision to place their kid without knowing all the facts. I don't want any kid sent away by uninformed parents. Do you???
Oh the HUMANITY!
You heard her folks. DO you want that? She thinks ST provides all the facts apparently. If that were true, she would have no need to ban me...
:rofl: :rofl:
There's some pretty funny shit in here. (http://http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/jenamay8.html)
It's Loooong. though.. took an hour to type. There was a lot of bullshit to take apart.
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Dear god she's like the Bush administration.
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psy~
I'm sorry. This is a major bummer. I find it interesting that this has not been 'announced' at ST as it was last time.
I find your points of view intelligent, supported by logic and very thought provoking. I would say that most parents received your posts in the same manner. I further think that this latest 'banning' goes to show the true motivation of ST owners. Parents may be deceived by a program ... but we/they aren't stupid. We get what Jena/Lon are doing. It becomes increasingly clear when they continually ban differing opinions.
You know the old adage .... 'If ya can't quiet the message ... kill the messenger".
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This is getting to be like the legal letters received by Pirate Bay, which normally end with the Pirates' reply to the attorneys to "get sodomized with a retractable baton".
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Willie Nelson (Charly-Karen) started a thread "Psy Has Been Banned"
"Just wanted to point out that Psy, the young man who strongly advocates against program placement, has been banned from this board. I know many of us disagree with this decision, but the owners of this forum have the right to do this. There appears to be a line somewhere that was crossed, and strong feelings on both sides.
I, personally, respect his opinions and appreciate the input and dialogue.
If anyone wants to continue discussion with Psy, he is always available by PM over on fornits or by email. While fornits adheres to a philosophy of free speech which goes beyond what most of us over here enjoy, there is some information that parents should consider strongly before making a decision for their teen. "
Golden Guru posts:
I would like to add my voice to WillieNelson's. I for one strongly oppose this 'ban'. When making a decision of this magnitude, I feel it is of utmost importance to consider all credible views. I believe that psy brings a very important intelligent (albeit sometimes opposing) view to the discussion regarding programs. His opinions are further validated (in my mind) by his own personal experience in a program.
When we 'moderate' at the expense of disallowing differing views, we run the risk of disallowing intelligent persons to make informed decisions. Lack of information (good or bad) opens the door to manipulation and coercion.
To Lon/Jena/moderators at large I would like to add that I wish I had 'met' the likes of psy prior to making a decision to place our daughter. I would have liked to opportunity to really dialog with someone with a different persuasion toward programs. I would have appreciated the opportunity for a more well rounded picture ... in a safe and supportive environment such as Struggling Teens.
Respectfully.
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Excellent. Psy fomented dissent. Two very active ST posters who disagree with a ban which was basically a kneejerk reaction to input Jena considered not supportive to parents with program questions. Not supportive of Lon's cause, which is padding his pockets while putting kids through the grist mill of programs. I've always thought ST should be responsible for ALL program info, even the paid advertising. At some point, someone will challenge Lon and hold him culpable for damages. If ST wants to help parents make an "informed" decision, they should be very discriminating about the site's advertised content. If I were clueless about programs and saw ST's disclaimer so prominently displayed, it would be a red flag to me.
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Does anyone read disclaimers Zen?
Being desperate and tired, out of your mind with worry and fear kind of has the effect of just going somewhere, anywhere and saying HELP!!! When a bunch of friendly people sympathise and tell you it's all okay and they can help your child, you dont worry about anything else - call it tunnel vision if you like, but that's exactly how it is.
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Not true, exhausted. Disclaimers are a clear red flag and just because a parent is desperate doesn't mean they have lost all common sense. Parents look for advertising as opposed to reviews/endorsements. Anything that appears to be just an ad or a marketing piece is discredited.
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Does anyone read disclaimers Zen?
I do! And I'm covering my ass, like Sue-Sue-Suedio.
Disclaimer: This post does not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information, content collectively, contained on, distributed through, or linked, downloaded or accessed from any of the services contained in this post. The information in this post is based on interviews with victims and parents, information from government officials, and lawyers. None of the contributors, sponsors, administrators or anyone else connected with this post in any way whatsoever can be responsible for the appearance of any inaccurate or libelous information contained in this post. All information provided using this post is only intended to be general summary information to the public.
It's too long for my signature, but bet I'm going to add it from now on, what with the sabre-rattling Scheff and Zehnder are doing. Golly, drag one hurricane victim through the wringer without even having the defendant in court and they think they can screw anyone.
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Does anyone read disclaimers Zen?
Being desperate and tired, out of your mind with worry and fear kind of has the effect of just going somewhere, anywhere and saying HELP!!! When a bunch of friendly people sympathise and tell you it's all okay and they can help your child, you dont worry about anything else - call it tunnel vision if you like, but that's exactly how it is.
I didn't mean to be flippant with you either, exhausted. There is the other side of the coin, of which I'm too painfully aware: The parent who seeks out the harshest looking program, hoping it will provide the kind of "tough love" they would go to prison for inflicting. It's sick, I know, but sometimes the disclaimer might tell twisted parents they're on the right track. Can't win.
When I looked at the re-vamped ST site, the first thing I noticed was the disclaimer, and an EdCon service offering support but not taking any responsibility for the programs advertised sets off bells and whistles. I hope parents who are desperate don't miss that red flag in their rush to find help.
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No worries I didn't take it as flippant .. it just interested me that you read the disclaimer, I wouldn't have, I'd have just gone ahead and taken the advice of Lon because he is meant to be the 'expert on these matters
I'm still glad the red flags were there for me even without reading the disclaimers though, enough to make me research before making any decisions *phew* I couldn't tel you what the red flags were, just that something told me it was all too good to be true and I needed to find out more about my kid being with strangers.
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Dear god she's like the Bush administration.
No shit... She can't seem to nail down a good reason to ban me.... They keep changing. First it was for copying and pasting the ST post (false), then it was for having some involvement in it(not true). Then it was for condoning it (that is true in principle, but for different reasons than one would expect. I do not approve of any intellectual property. It can be used to restrict speech.). Now... It's for posting in the parent's forum... Hey! Jena! Withdrawl the troops and cut your losses!
The Latest:
I told you this would happen, and it's only the beginning.
They are seeing, now, more than they ever would have seen had you not banned me. I sort of enjoy it when you and Lon show your true colors for all to see.
Cut your losses and un-ban me.
Next time, find a good reason. Oh wait.. I won't give you one. Doesn't that just frustrate the hell out of you?
The use of the reference to that song (I see your true colors...) was no mistake btw... that song gives me the chills...
I got this:
Michael,
This is a simple matter.
You were previously banned.
You asked to be reinstated under the condition that you would not post on the parenting forums.
I agreed.
You abided by that agreement, excepting the one note of condolence to a poster, until now.
Now you are banned again.
Jena
I wrote this:
On May 9, 2007, at 6:18 PM, Jena Martin wrote:
Michael,
This is a simple matter.
No. I'ts not. If it was a simple manner, we wouldn't be discussing this.
You were previously banned.
For BS reasons explained and debated at length
You asked to be reinstated under the condition that you would not post on the parenting forums.
Did you read my last.. really long mail.... Apparantly not:
"You gave no indication that you accepted that condition, or had decided to impose it. Hypothetically, if it was a self imposed restriction, i could remove it since I was the one to instate it."
I agreed.
Where? You agreed to un-ban me. You did not indicate the re-instatement had any conditions, or that you had agreed to my _PROPOSED_ condition or wanted it imposed.
You abided by that agreement, excepting the one note of condolence to a poster, until now.
Check my posting history. You haven't paid much attention apparently. I've kept _debate_ to the debate forum, but have not refrained from posting in the parent forum. Why not so much? Because I've been extremely busy this semester.
Now you are banned again.
For BS reasons explained and debated at length
Maybe I lost them another customer... Whoops.. My bad. :D
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CRAWFORD FOR PRESIDENT 2008
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Just fired off another to Jena...
Fornits posters are not happy you banned me. Multiple ST posters have contacted me via email to express their disgust.
Let me quote one of them:
"I feel badly that you got banned. I know part of you doesn't
care, but I really think you tried to be civil. I guess Jena and Lon
just don't want any debate. That's a shame, because the industry needs
it."
And it's not who You think it is. I've been talking to your locals... And they read Fornits. They may not post, but they read Fornits.
The more you ban me, the more you try and shut me up, the more you look guilty in the eyes of not just fornits posters, but those on ST as well. An insurrection is where you are headed if you keep me banned. Your program tactics (manipulating of the parents) only work by controlling communication. You know this, so you keep me on "bans" with them. Similar to a program, where those with too much "negativity" are in some fashion cut off... preventing the "disease" of independent thought from spreading.
You banned me because you what I have to say, you don't want parents to hear. Just like a program. Peer pressure is far more effective than any blatant technique of influence. By eliminating those who don't share opinions (banning, editing, deleting posts) you make sure your forum is populated only with those who "tow the party line". One that makes you money. Presenting alternatives is out of the question. Again.. As I have said many times.. Every kid is right for a TBS in your eyes.... You're blinded by greed, rationalized away as "the only way" so you can sleep at night. Take a good hard look at what happens to the kids you help send to TBS. Of course you didn't have to be there. You didn't have to look in their eyes. You can pretend they never existed. I remember... and I won't let you forget.
Forgot to mention... somehow overlooked this email. Jena responded with this:
When ST posters are unhappy with me, they email me. Trust me on this one, I would know. I have received no emails at all regarding your status on ST.
Again, I expect better of you. Will you please drop the intimidation act? It is childish, silly and does nothing except reinforce my initial position regarding your banning.
Jena
[emphasis added for suggestive (hint hint) effect]
*cough* *cough*
http://www.freepowerboards.com/strugglingppl/ (http://www.freepowerboards.com/strugglingppl/)
read my policies, register, emigrate.
Looking for mods.
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I'll send Teflon Jena a missive post haste expressing my righteous indignation at her unprovoked banning of you.
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I'm try to work up a reasonable level of give a damn about this incident...
nope.. fail..
moving on.
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if you dont care, why comment?
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Irony has just been defined.
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never mind Psy, it's given them someone else to pick on
Me :lol:
-Exhausted, too lazy to log in
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never mind Psy, it's given them someone else to pick on
Me :lol:
-Exhausted, too lazy to log in
ST says: no attacking other posters... and yet it never ceases to amaze me how blatant attacks on you are somehow permitted.
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What is more amazing is exhausted's progress. Not in the program for we represent the anti-program. Speaking one's mind is anti-program. I refer instead to her progress as a poster on these humble forums. When she first came to fornits her ability to fend off trolls was nonexistent.
Now she has progressively improved to the point where a few well placed eye rolls sends most trolls scampering. Further, she has gotten much better about not falling into futile arguements. This is evidenced in numerous cases on this forum and in the Struggling Retards forum.
If only more people, both parent and survivor, had her capacity to grow in a new situation. Be a far more interesting world.
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never mind Psy, it's given them someone else to pick on
Me :lol:
-Exhausted, too lazy to log in
ST says: no attacking other posters... and yet it never ceases to amaze me how blatant attacks on you are somehow permitted.
You are not an ST person, that is why. No matter how hard you try to keep a level playing field there will always be a bias in any group situation, you may not even realize it. In my couple of years here on fornits I have witnessed some horrible things said to program parents, kids etc. and no one would blink an eye. But when I snickered at someone saying they were “Duct taped from head to toe for no reason†or “Thrown into the ocean during a Typhoon†this place lit up like a pin ball machine, talking about “Who free forumsâ€, talks about banning me, asking me to apologize etc.. If TSW posts a gorilla in a thread I am in and then I return it to a thread he is talking in then I am viewed as insensitive and considered wrong. It’s just the way it is…If you are the only white person in the room you just can’t use the “N†word, no matter what your intentions are, but the black people can use it all they want.
I understand all of that because most people here on fornits can relate to the “survivors†more than you can “parentsâ€. When you go over to ST from fornits you take with you a predefined position and will be treated differently even if the rules are suppose to apply to everyone…..and “so it goesâ€â€¦it is very difficult to apply the same rules to everyone, a lesson you will learn over and over as you go thru life, psy.
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:lol:
Same old shit different day.
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never mind Psy, it's given them someone else to pick on
Me :lol:
-Exhausted, too lazy to log in
ST says: no attacking other posters... and yet it never ceases to amaze me how blatant attacks on you are somehow permitted.
You are not an ST person, that is why. No matter how hard you try to keep a level playing field there will always be a bias in any group situation, you may not even realize it. In my couple of years here on fornits I have witnessed some horrible things said to program parents, kids etc. and no one would blink an eye. But when I snickered at someone saying they were “Duct taped from head to toe for no reason†or “Thrown into the ocean during a Typhoon†this place lit up like a pin ball machine, talking about “Who free forumsâ€, talks about banning me, asking me to apologize etc.. If TSW posts a gorilla in a thread I am in and then I return it to a thread he is talking in then I am viewed as insensitive and considered wrong. It’s just the way it is…If you are the only white person in the room you just can’t use the “N†word, no matter what your intentions are, but the black people can use it all they want.
I understand all of that because most people here on fornits can relate to the “survivors†more than you can “parentsâ€. When you go over to ST from fornits you take with you a predefined position and will be treated differently even if the rules are suppose to apply to everyone…..and “so it goesâ€â€¦it is very difficult to apply the same rules to everyone, a lesson you will learn over and over as you go thru life, psy.
The only reason you "The Who" are not banned is because you would just come back using another screen name.
EVERYBODY knows "The Who" is an asshole,so they keep you around as an example of what a real asshole is.
Havent you figured that out yet?
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The only reason you "The Who" are not banned is because you would just come back using another screen name.
Thank you for clearing that up for all of us...you should pass along your insight and knowledge to psy, who was banned from ST, he could use your help.
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The only reason you "The Who" are not banned is because you would just come back using another screen name.
Thank you for clearing that up for all of us...you should pass along your insight and knowledge to psy, who was banned from ST, he could use your help.
Please.
Do you really believe that I wield any authoriety over "psy".
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They can attack me all they want, its okay, I'm not affected in my daily life for it
It does concern me however that there seems to be a real anger towards me because of how we are doing in spite of my kids not being placed in a program - as if well ... at least one of them .... is mad as hell at me for not going ahead and pllacing my kids - surely if a family can grow together without this drastic step, there should be cause for celebration :-? :question:
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Exhausted wrote:
....It does concern me however that there seems to be a real anger towards me because of how we are doing in spite of my kids not being placed in a program
I get just the opposite; I have encountered people here who have outward rage because I sent my daughter to a program. At first I was like you are now and amazed that people could feel this way.
at least one of them .... is mad as hell at me for not going ahead and pllacing my kids - surely if a family can grow together without this drastic step, there should be cause for celebration
Its going to happen, exhausted, …look at it like a “normal curve†you have your majority of the population in the middle 95.4% and then on each end you have your extreme cases (2.15% and 2.15%). Then on the tails (3 sigma area, or better) you have those that are very extreme (fringe elements, we call them) who, on one end believe -- any kids who smokes a cigarette should go to a TBS and then on the other end you have those who -- would never send their kids to a TBS for help under any circumstances.
So it can be a shock to go from one end of the spectrum to the other, you get use to it over time, though.
(http://http://home.earthlink.net/~snailstales/normalarea.JPG)
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Thanks for the reality check Who, you are quite right
Of course I was one of those parents looking into sending my kid to a program during desperate times, I'm now one who won't consider it under any circumstances, so i can see both sides
Its strange that mature and 'succesful' adults who are in jobs of responsibility just cannot get to grips with the fact that the path i chose is working at the moment and really want to down me over choosing this way .. I'm not really bohtered but it makes me wonder why anyone wouldnt be happy that so far a resolution is in place, it seems a little odd to completely dismiss the idea of getting the family together without a program.
oh well
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The only reason you "The Who" are not banned is because you would just come back using another screen name.
EVERYBODY knows "The Who" is an asshole,so they keep you around as an example of what a real asshole is.
Havent you figured that out yet?
Not quite. Nobody gets banned from Fornits. It would be a relatively simple matter to ban him by IP and email address, but that is just not done here.
@The who:
Systems can be created to ensure fairness. This is a fair system. It is unmoderated. Moderation ensures the group-think is enforced and irreversible. The "group majority culture" of Fornits could conceivably change given that speech is not limited in any way.
It is normally difficult to apply the same rules to everyone, but when there are no rules, there is no problem. I hear a lot of ::blah:: out of you but little makes sense. You aren't even talking about rules. You are talking about your treatment. There are no rules on treatment here. It is fair (evenhanded) as it is.
There are other ways of doing things, and other forums. If you don't like it here... Nobody is keeping you here. You won't be banned.
Regarding your comment on me going to ST... On ST, I broke no rules, offended no posters, and got banned... I was liked over there. The positions I presented did not cause conflict becuase I presented them politely, and with respect to the other posters. Something you do not do. Most people here can't stand you. A whole bunch of people want you banned here, but policies won't permit it (and rightly.. it's a slippery slope). On ST, only Mose agreed with me getting banned (and that's a given). The other posters protested. Here, there would be a celebration.
for blatant example: in this thread, you compare a screaming gorilla, to your comments doubting a survivor's story. In doing so, you start a flame war, in which whatever topic the thread was about, gets dragged down into bludgeoning you for your incomprehensible insensitivity. I'm convinced you just don't see how... nevermind. there is no point in explaining it to you.
Can you leave this thread please. I can't make you, but, please leave.
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Psy wrote:
Systems can be created to ensure fairness. This is a fair system. It is unmoderated. Moderation ensures the group-think is enforced and irreversible. The "group majority culture" of Fornits could conceivably change given that speech is not limited in any way.
fornits is both..... it is moderated and unmoderated depending on the forum.
It is normally difficult to apply the same rules to everyone, but when there are no rules, there is no problem. I hear a lot of out of you but little makes sense. You aren't even talking about rules. You are talking about your treatment. There are no rules on treatment here. It is fair (evenhanded) as it is.
Fornits has rules, but you don’t see it because you live within the rules. The rules are dictated by the majority, they don’t need to be written on the door.
Regarding your comment on me going to ST... On ST, I broke no rules, offended no posters, and got banned... I was liked over there. The positions I presented did not cause conflict becuase I presented them politely, and with respect to the other posters. Something you do not do. Most people here can't stand you. A whole bunch of people want you banned here, but policies won't permit it (and rightly.. it's a slippery slope). On ST, only Mose agreed with me getting banned (and that's a given). The other posters protested. Here, there would be a celebration.
Yes, you did break the rules…Psy, you went over to ST with a preconceived notion of what is right and wrong. But on ST you are speaking primarily to adults and adults who have teenage children, none of which you can relate to. Don’t take it the wrong way, you are probably a smart kid, but you are just that, a kid who has had a bad experience in a program. You are not mature enough so you cant relate to what these parents have gone thru or the decisions they have to make. I have read your posts, they are off base and insensitive from their point of view and you carry your baggage from fornits over there. Oh, sure you can find a few people to rally behind you and say you shouldn’t be banned, but the bottom line is you were. Not everyone was banned, just you and its because you were not helping with the situation or speaking on an adult level, just like I would be banned here (as you pointed out) because my perspective and approach doesn’t sit well with many here.
There are other ways of doing things, and other forums. If you don't like it here... Nobody is keeping you here. You won't be banned.
I don’t think I ever said I didn’t like it here….I have been here 2 years.
for blatant example: in this thread, you compare a screaming gorilla, to your comments doubting a survivor's story. In doing so, you start a flame war, in which whatever topic the thread was about, gets dragged down into bludgeoning you for your incomprehensible insensitivity. I'm convinced you just don't see how... nevermind. there is no point in explaining it to you.
No, Psy, I didn’t, they were two separate examples. I indicated that I have witnessed some pretty rough stuff going back and forth here on fornits over the time I have been here and no one has raised an eyebrow, but when I snickered about someone being thrown into the ocean all hell broke loose (I broke the rules)…my point being there are unspoken rules…. And you broke them over on ST, get over it and move on…. As far as the gorilla goes it seems you missed the point (twice).
Can you leave this thread please. I can't make you, but, please leave.
That makes no sense based on what you were just preaching...we have been through this ...TSW has a forum in-which I dont post (who free), you could start a "I was unfairly banned from ST..." thread over there.
Sorry, If I seem insensitive or blunt towards you, but you have approached this subject a few times with me, I am not the one to blame for you getting banned.
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php has encountered a stack overflow.. poop
I'm having troubles posting a response.
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Fornits has rules, but you don’t see it because you live within the rules. The rules are dictated by the majority, they don’t need to be written on the door.
It has taboo, not rules. Rules are enforced by authority. There is no authority here.
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You are not mature enough so you cant relate to what these parents have gone thru or the decisions they have to make.
Oh... Yes. I don't understand the basic psychology of fear as a motivator. I don't understand the techniques used to control the group dynamic via communication. :roll:
Yes.. I am totally ignorant of that... It's not like any of that happened in program.... :roll:
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I have read your posts, they are off base and insensitive from their point of view and you carry your baggage from fornits over there.
No posters complained about my posts. Only the management had a problem. You say "insensitive"?
I, personally, respect his opinions and appreciate the input and dialogue.
I believe that spy brings a very important intelligent (albeit sometimes opposing) view to the discussion regarding programs. His opinions are further validated (in my mind) by his own personal experience in a program.
It is unfortunate that parents coming to ST for help and information can no longer get the perspective of an intelligent young man who survived a bad program...and who seems to be doing well in spite of that.
It is clear that the vast majority of people here have no problem with PSY being a member of this board and I think the people in charge should give what the vast majority of this board wants and in this case, that is PSY being a member of this board.
Psy is not an OverLorrd 'type' (<--- he does come to this forum to 'stir the pot' in my opinion). There is a vast distinction in my mind. I reiterate that Psy brings intelligent, personal experience to the dialog.
"Why is asking any tough questions or giving a point of view which is in the minority seen as getting things "off track" baiting, or being unsupportive.
Moving on from any pathetic slanging matches, about Psy ... all I can say is I talk to him personally as well on Forums, I question some of the things he says but he NEVER shouts me down, NEVER, he always, without fail, offers me a debate that is carried out in a mature and balanced way, Psy is not about disruption, he's about offering alternative ways of dealing with what is a desperate situation for both parents and child, having been through what he has, I find him an amazing young man, why would he banned for alerting parents and kids to the dangers they could well be facing? Is this not the aim of Struggling teens? To make sure that a pleasant and happy outcome is achieved for parent & child?
Banning Psy makes me wonder if this isn't the case, is Psy such a threat to the industry that he must be silenced?
On Fornits there are worringly tales of brainwashing etc along with physical abuse stories but if a parent was only to read this site they would have no idea.
I've got nothing against psy, he seems a nice, intelligent guy with what I consider some blind spots about parenting, schools, and so forth.
those aren't just "a few" posters... those are pretty much all their most active posters.
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Oh, sure you can find a few people to rally behind you and say you shouldn’t be banned, but the bottom line is you were. Not everyone was banned, just you and its because you were not helping with the situation or speaking on an adult level
Are you shitting me? Ok.. it's your opinion. Whatever.
No, Psy, I didn’t, they were two separate examples. I indicated that I have witnessed some pretty rough stuff going back and forth here on fornits over the time I have been here and no one has raised an eyebrow, but when I snickered about someone being thrown into the ocean all hell broke loose (I broke the rules)…my point being there are unspoken rules…. And you broke them over on ST, get over it and move on….
Could you be more specific as to what unspoken rules I broke, with evidence to support it. Please. I'd like to see this.
Can you leave this thread please. I can't make you, but, please leave.
That makes no sense based on what you were just preaching...we have been through this ...TSW has a forum in-which I dont post (who free), you could start a "I was unfairly banned from ST..." thread over there.
First of all, it makes perfect sense. I cannot ban you, but I can politely ask you to leave. I cannot enforce it, it is not a rule. Why does that contadict what I said before.
You don't seem to understand the difference between posting a gorilla in a thread debating statistics, and posting it in a thread where a survivor is telling her traumatic story. You just don't get the emotional weight of it. You think everybody is as detached as you are?
Second of all, No I couldn't start a thread there. That forum is for facilities questions only (hence the name).
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Exhausted wrote: ....It does concern me however that there seems to be a real anger towards me because of how we are doing in spite of my kids not being placed in a program
I get just the opposite; I have encountered people here who have outward rage because I sent my daughter to a program. At first I was like you are now and amazed that people could feel this way.
at least one of them .... is mad as hell at me for not going ahead and pllacing my kids - surely if a family can grow together without this drastic step, there should be cause for celebration
Its going to happen, exhausted, …look at it like a “normal curve†you have your majority of the population in the middle 95.4% and then on each end you have your extreme cases (2.15% and 2.15%). Then on the tails (3 sigma area, or better) you have those that are very extreme (fringe elements, we call them) who, on one end believe -- any kids who smokes a cigarette should go to a TBS and then on the other end you have those who -- would never send their kids to a TBS for help under any circumstances.
So it can be a shock to go from one end of the spectrum to the other, you get use to it over time, though.
(http://http://home.earthlink.net/~snailstales/normalarea.JPG)
Cool.
Looks like Las Vegas style gambling ststistics.
Go ahead and "roll the dice" then send your kid in to a program.
Theres plenty of evidence showing that these programs hurt people.
Why would so many different people come here and post similar bad experiences?Are we liars?Just a few out of the many that were helped?
What price are you willing to pay?
Oh thats right,you dont have to pay the price,YOUR KID DOES!
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As far as maturity goes, psy is one of the most mature people I've seen post between fornits and ST. Age is not a valid predictor of maturity. Psy actively goes out of his way to engage in intelligent dialogue with parents and survivors and to bridge the gap exemplified by fornits and ST. In particular the forum psy's just created to allow for moderated and yet still challenging discussion. I think that is substantially more mature than the recent actions of ST's moderators - ie. plugging their ears and going ::lala:: ::lala:: ::lala:: ::lala::
Rachael
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@ Who~
What name do you post under at ST?
It is true that psy is not a parent. He may be young (how old are you psy??). He has never had to make the gut wrenching decision to place a child in a program. But, let me ask you this.
All things being equal ... (non-parent, young, etc.) if psy came to ST to post his amazing transition post program - that is he went in 'troubled' and graduated 'healed/fixed' - do you think he would have been banned? Trust me on this ... if psy came to sing the praises of being in a program ... if he was a poster child for the efficacy of programs ... he would be as welcome as rain in a summer drought.
This is called a double standard. It is an insult to my intelligence to have dissenting views disallowed in a forum that is supposed to address parenting issues.
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Psy wrote:
You don't seem to understand the difference between posting a gorilla in a thread debating statistics, and posting it in a thread where a survivor is telling her traumatic story. You just don't get the emotional weight of it. You think everybody is as detached as you are?
Look Psy, this is one of the reasons you got banned…you don’t seem to be able to understand other peoples positions and you don’t hold them up as important as you own.
A prime example on how your bias surfaces is the Magilla Gorilla issue. Here is how your thinking pans out:
If you sneak into your neighbor’s yard and toss a turd into his pool while he is having a party and sharing information with parents struggling with their teenagers you think that is okay, maybe even funny. But if your neighbor scoops up the turd and tosses it back into your pool while you happen to be having survivors over telling their stories all of a sudden it is wrong and insensitive and you feel your neighbor should have been aware that you were having a survivor meeting before doing that because it is more important in your view.
…..you are heavily biased,Psy, and you don’t even see it. You didn’t get banned from ST for no reason, we all know that…. You just feel your opinions carry more weight and are more important than others but they don’t.
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Psy wrote: You don't seem to understand the difference between posting a gorilla in a thread debating statistics, and posting it in a thread where a survivor is telling her traumatic story. You just don't get the emotional weight of it. You think everybody is as detached as you are?
Look Psy, this is one of the reasons you got banned…you don’t seem to be able to understand other peoples positions and you don’t hold them up as important as you own.
A prime example on how your bias surfaces is the Magilla Gorilla issue. Here is how your thinking pans out:
If you sneak into your neighbor’s yard and toss a turd into his pool while he is having a party and sharing information with parents struggling with their teenagers you think that is okay, maybe even funny. But if your neighbor scoops up the turd and tosses it back into your pool while you happen to be having survivors over telling their stories all of a sudden it is wrong and insensitive and you feel your neighbor should have been aware that you were having a survivor meeting before doing that because it is more important in your view.
…..you are heavily biased,Psy, and you don’t even see it. You didn’t get banned from ST for no reason, we all know that…. You just feel your opinions carry more weight and are more important than others but they don’t.
If I was sneaking around in your back yard while you were throwing a cocktail party with Mel Sembler and Helen Petermann,it would be to help your kid climb out the window and escape your twisted gut wrenching child abuse,and I would leave a poisonous water snake in your pool just hoping you would try and scoop it up.
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You are not mature enough so you cant relate to what these parents have gone thru or the decisions they have to make.
That's the kind of attitude I see far too often on ST. Maybe if parents listened to their kids and engaged in some give and take dialogue, they wouldn't have to resort to programs. You can't relate to being in a program, who. Psy can, and that's the much-needed perspective he tried to bring to ST. The only thing you really know about ASR, who, is what some smiling sycophant told you while honey-glazing your ass to get at your money.
I don't pay much attention to ST, because it's nothing but an infomercial. It's not a place for any kind of open discussion. If mose weren't such an avid and rabid supporter of programs, he would have been banned long ago for some of the vicious comments he directs toward posters with opposing views.
I still think you're financially motivated to post on Fornits, who. Your activity seems to increase at certain times, like when Dan is gathering information from PV surviviors to establish a pattern of abuse. You even stuck your head in down there in an attempt to derail the thread. Careful sticking your head in, though - Dan will cut it off.
Your analogy about the turd in the pool is fairly accurate. You're the turd in the Fornits pool, and we don't have a pool cleaner to remove you. I guess we'll have to swim around you and wait for you to sink to the bottom.
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Psy wrote: You don't seem to understand the difference between posting a gorilla in a thread debating statistics, and posting it in a thread where a survivor is telling her traumatic story. You just don't get the emotional weight of it. You think everybody is as detached as you are?
Look Psy, this is one of the reasons you got banned…you don’t seem to be able to understand other peoples positions and you don’t hold them up as important as you own.
Are you emotionally invested in that 250 page textual abortion you call statistics gathering? Do you think emotional involvement is irrelevant to harm done? Besides.... Your "pool" of "statistics" is notably less sensitive to thrown fecal matter, given that it is already comprised chiefly of it.
A prime example on how your bias surfaces is the Magilla Gorilla issue. Here is how your thinking pans out:
If you sneak into your neighbor’s yard and toss a turd into his pool while he is having a party and sharing information with parents struggling with their teenagers you think that is okay, maybe even funny.
Again.. how did i toss a turd into ST's pool (besides posting their reasons for banning me)... I'd like to hear what rules I broke, what people I offended.. please, please.. be specific. Come on now.
But if your neighbor scoops up the turd and tosses it back into your pool while you happen to be having survivors over telling their stories all of a sudden it is wrong and insensitive and you feel your neighbor should have been aware that you were having a survivor meeting before doing that because it is more important in your view.
Yes I would be offended if the neighbors threw turds in my pool. But what did I do to them? Again.. I ask you for evidence here. Some wrong I have comitted. If I am so blind, explain it to me.
…..you are heavily biased,Psy, and you don’t even see it. You didn’t get banned from ST for no reason, we all know that…. You just feel your opinions carry more weight and are more important than others but they don’t.
Again... show me a reason I was banned.
Just because I treat you like shit doesn't mean I treat other parents that way. You have more than earned my vehemence.
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Again.. how did i toss a turd into ST's pool (besides posting their reasons for banning me)... I'd like to hear what rules I broke, what people I offended.. please, please.. be specific. Come on now.
You didn’t…..This is getting kind of funny…you keep missing the point. The gorilla was tossed into thewho thread and I tossed it back into the Facilities thread and so “The Pool exampleâ€â€¦nothing to do with ST (go back and read it). But you thought it was insensitive of me but not insensitive of anyone else because of your point of view. This shows you have a bias. It is not a slight against you, doesn’t make you a bad person, but it is there never the less.
If you are posting in a forum and have a bias, like most of us do, it is going to show and people will treat you differently and you will draw biased conclusions based on your experiences.
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Again.. how did i toss a turd into ST's pool (besides posting their reasons for banning me)... I'd like to hear what rules I broke, what people I offended.. please, please.. be specific. Come on now.
You didn’t…..This is getting kind of funny…you keep missing the point.
Help me understand. Maybe I am blinded by group-think, or just plain too dense. You say, "I have read your posts, they are off base and insensitive from their point of view and you carry your baggage from fornits over there." and yet you can provide no examples.
You pretend we are not talking about ST, that we are talking about the Gorilla now, becuase you cannot answer that question. Clearly, the topic was my ST banning just a post or so ago. Is your memory really that short, or do you think mine is?
Do you work in press relations by chance?
The gorilla was tossed into thewho thread and I tossed it back into the Facilities thread and so “The Pool exampleâ€â€¦nothing to do with ST (go back and read it).
I read it. It said, "having a party and sharing information with parents struggling with their teenagers"... What else could that mean.. Unless you refer to "The Who" thread as informative. Wow... Just look at the information gathering methods, impeccable attention to detail....etc... Hey... There's a market for it. You could sell your statistics to NATSAP! (as if you don't already plan to do something similar)
But you thought it was insensitive of me but not insensitive of anyone else because of your point of view. This shows you have a bias.
Even if I did have a bias (translation: opinion), I did not break the rules of the forum. You claim I offended the locals... Examples please.
It is not a slight against you, doesn’t make you a bad person, but it is there never the less.
If you are posting in a forum and have a bias, like most of us do, it is going to show and people will treat you differently and you will draw biased conclusions based on your experiences.
Everybody and everything is biased since it is from a certain point of view. Is it possible not to have a point of view? If you say yes, you're fooling yourself.. or brain dead (both are plausible in this case); however, a point of view is no reason to ban somebody, especially when it is presented in a respectful manner, and nobody is offended. You say "Not everyone was banned, just you and its because you were not helping with the situation or speaking on an adult level"[/u]... Support it if you can. But you can't. So you will change the subject, or leave out this portion of the message in your response.... maybe bring up the gorilla again.
Is your definition of "speaking on adult level" somewhat similar to: "pretending to not have a bias"(like fox news)?
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Relax, he's quiet now.
(http://http://z.about.com/d/pittsburgh/1/7/j/Q/gorilla_1.jpg)
Anyway
I just thought I'd chime in and let you know that it was ME who posted that, Who, not Psy. Psy has nothing to do with it.
If you have something to bitch about regarding a screaming ape, take it up with me!
Also, I should let you know, that you're a lot like that ape. You both make nose, disrupt things, and rant and rave, but have little of substance. Discoherent screaming, and... bullshit that you can't back up, respectively.
It is amusing how your programmie nature continually comes out from time to time, it really is.
But, at any rate, back to your regularly scheduled derailed thread c/o The Who.
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Relax, he's quiet now.
(http://http://z.about.com/d/pittsburgh/1/7/j/Q/gorilla_1.jpg)
Anyway
I just thought I'd chime in and let you know that it was ME who posted that, Who, not Psy. Psy has nothing to do with it.
If you have something to bitch about regarding a screaming ape, take it up with me!
Also, I should let you know, that you're a lot like that ape. You both make nose, disrupt things, and rant and rave, but have little of substance. Discoherent screaming, and... bullshit that you can't back up, respectively.
It is amusing how your programmie nature continually comes out from time to time, it really is.
But, at any rate, back to your regularly scheduled derailed thread c/o The Who.
Im a derranged person who's only desire is to fill this board with spam.
"The Who"'s participation here is clearly not sincere and its obvious that "The Who" is participating here just to disrupt and distract.
I told you guys to just ignor The Who,just like you ignor my threatening posts.
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Take up the pledge then cheetoh.
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Relax, he's quiet now.
(http://http://z.about.com/d/pittsburgh/1/7/j/Q/gorilla_1.jpg)
Anyway
I just thought I'd chime in and let you know that it was ME who posted that, Who, not Psy. Psy has nothing to do with it.
If you have something to bitch about regarding a screaming ape, take it up with me!
Also, I should let you know, that you're a lot like that ape. You both make nose, disrupt things, and rant and rave, but have little of substance. Discoherent screaming, and... bullshit that you can't back up, respectively.
It is amusing how your programmie nature continually comes out from time to time, it really is.
But, at any rate, back to your regularly scheduled derailed thread c/o The Who.
Niles, no one insinuated that Psy posted the ape, I nor anyone else...it was easily traced back to you.....you should read more before jumping to conclusions....we liked the ape, but it became disruptive in some forums for some other people, thats all.
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Niles, no one insinuated that Psy posted the ape, I nor anyone else...it was easily traced back to you.....you should read more before jumping to conclusions....we liked the ape, but it became disruptive in some forums for some other people, thats all.
[/b]
I love how the only person on fornits who has the audacity to speak for fornits posters as a group is the one who least represents any of us.
Who is we Mister Who?
Rachael
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please. just let him respond to my post... he'll shut up. he can't back up his accusations.
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Psy wrote:
Is your definition of "speaking on adult level" somewhat similar to: "pretending to not have a bias"(like fox news)?
The “No Spin Zone†, I like the comparison !! Yes, no bias here just opinions…..
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Who
You cannot expect anyone who has gone through any trauma as a child, especially a preventable one to not be angry or bias .. it does affect ones entire life, I think they have a right to be pretty pissed off about it
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Psy wrote: Is your definition of "speaking on adult level" somewhat similar to: "pretending to not have a bias"(like fox news)?
The “No Spin Zone†, I like the comparison !! Yes, no bias here just opinions…..
As I predicted... you did not respond to my request that you back up (or retract) your accusation with evidence:
Is it possible not to have a point of view? If you say yes, you're fooling yourself.. or brain dead (both are plausible in this case); however, a point of view is no reason to ban somebody, especially when it is presented in a respectful manner, and nobody is offended. You say "Not everyone was banned, just you and its because you were not helping with the situation or speaking on an adult level"[/u]... Support it if you can. But you can't. So you will change the subject, or leave out this portion of the message in your response.... maybe bring up the gorilla again.
You changed the subject, and did not support your accusation. All you have to do is go over to ST, click on my username, and go through my post history.
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Psy wrote:
As I predicted... you did not respond to my request that you back up (or retract) your accusation with evidence
Psy, as you requested, I read some of your posts again (over on ST, not all) and you play games with people (you and TSW), talking about getting ID’s on people via their IP numbers. You do the same thing here on fornits. You like to play the fear card by using your IT knowledge and then when someone holds your feet to the fire because they find out what you are up to and all of a sudden its….â€Oh, no we cant do that you need a subpoena, what is everyone talking about?â€
The conversation is going on beautifully without you over on ST, you need not worry. You don’t know what it is like to have a teenager in crisis and you, Psy, have only been exposed to one school (I believe, I may be wrong on that), they are not all alike, believe me. You talk about the boarding schools like they are all cults and suggesting that having their children exorcised or sent to an Amish farm is a better option, but you provide no studies to back up your position. Your MO is spreading fear and if I was moderator I wouldn’t be happy either. Its best to let them gather and share information based on each others experiences, as adults and parents, and discover what is best for their family without the input of someone who was not helped by the program they were in.
I am a firm believer that each conversation should be balanced but you don’t seem to (or refuse to) see that most programs are beneficial which brings a damaging catalyst to the conversation and tends to detract from their primary focus, which is to seek and discuss help for their families.
If you ever do get reinstated (which I believe you will given enough time and proven maturity here on fornits) I would suggest you do a little more listening and less manipulating. Maybe take a look at my statistics and try to understand why they are different from other sites or lists (for starters). I hope this isn’t too harsh for you…. you insisted and I tried to sugar coat this response the best I could and I refrained from reciprocating your phrase to me when I tried to be civil with you... what was that again?... Oh yes calling me an asshole.
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::T::............. I think he really believes that shit? ::eek3::
EDIT: SO who! You believe that ST parents should only listen to true believers and not the kids who actually were in programs? I hope that you don't see yourself as some benevolent program-parent power ranger, You're the guy that other naive parents would want to lynch after they got back abused or dead children. I hope you explain to parents your circle of loss theory, I'm sure they'd love to know that you view kids as disposable.. As long as programs can keep being programs right?
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You are being trolled, get a clue- duh!
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I think it is important for parents to understand what they are getting into.. not the lies they are told from former used car salesmen that suddenly opt to be "admissions directors" for these programs. The cult like activities and the view that these uneducated program owners think they know what is better for your child then you do. They tell you its like a summer camp with disapline. You are forcefed BS, anything you want to hear.. to let you believe they will be in a positive experience. Accepting children of any issue.. I have even seen advertisements that these programs are acceptable for children with Aspergers Syndrome. Tell me "The Who".. how could a program provide for a meek teen with aspegers, a child who is severely depressed, a drug addict and a gang member possibly benefit from the same program? You don't have to tell me I'll answer for you.. abusive cult like activities that brainwashes the students.
I have seen what it does to families first hand. You get your "admissions director" to sell these programs like it is the answer to their dreams.. they will have their "child" back. It will be a fabulous uplifting experience. The weak and desperate parents who only want what is best for their child ask question after question to make sure the program they choose will be different from all the abusive programs they have heard about. Only to be reassured that this is different. That was that "other" program. When in reality you have hired the same people from the former program that was shut down. They just changed their names and moved on. As a parent you couldnt imagine that people could get away with child abuse as a practice. It must be against the law.. it must have just been that program or it was a mistake or accident. It isnt until you have your child come home abused, mentally/emotionally traumatized or in a bodybag.. that you realize you have been duped.
Don't try to stiffle PSY because he has the guts to tell the parents EXACTLY what they are getting into and let your dirty little secret out. He is taking his own free time to warn people about these programs. He isnt sitting on his big fat blood money bank account trying discount the very few people who arent afraid to speak out about their horrible experiences. May you choke on every dollar you make from abusing kids.
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Psy wrote: As I predicted... you did not respond to my request that you back up (or retract) your accusation with evidence
Psy, as you requested, I read some of your posts again (over on ST, not all) and you play games with people (you and TSW), talking about getting ID’s on people via their IP numbers. You do the same thing here on fornits. You like to play the fear card by using your IT knowledge and then when someone holds your feet to the fire because they find out what you are up to and all of a sudden its….â€Oh, no we cant do that you need a subpoena, what is everyone talking about?â€
The conversation is going on beautifully without you over on ST, you need not worry. You don’t know what it is like to have a teenager in crisis and you, Psy, have only been exposed to one school (I believe, I may be wrong on that), they are not all alike, believe me. You talk about the boarding schools like they are all cults and suggesting that having their children exorcised or sent to an Amish farm is a better option, but you provide no studies to back up your position. Your MO is spreading fear and if I was moderator I wouldn’t be happy either. Its best to let them gather and share information based on each others experiences, as adults and parents, and discover what is best for their family without the input of someone who was not helped by the program they were in.
I am a firm believer that each conversation should be balanced but you don’t seem to (or refuse to) see that most programs are beneficial which brings a damaging catalyst to the conversation and tends to detract from their primary focus, which is to seek and discuss help for their families.
If you ever do get reinstated (which I believe you will given enough time and proven maturity here on fornits) I would suggest you do a little more listening and less manipulating. Maybe take a look at my statistics and try to understand why they are different from other sites or lists (for starters). I hope this isn’t too harsh for you…. you insisted and I tried to sugar coat this response the best I could and I refrained from reciprocating your phrase to me when I tried to be civil with you... what was that again?... Oh yes calling me an asshole.
This is not ST. You are an asshole. You have more than earned the moniker: See following example: I did not start the discussion on IP addresses on ST... All I tried to say was that there was not as much cause to fear as people thought. There is nothing revealing about an IP address (apart from approximate location, which is often way way off). I explained it would take a subpoena to tie an IP back to a definitive name and address. I was attempting to dissuade NOT CREATE fear. You just misrepresented me, painting me in a negative light... Given that you have done it before with Deborah, and others, I can only assume this is intentional. Evidence = Specific quotations with links to the source fuckwit... not your out of context interpretation.
Even if the IP address thing was an issue, it was before my first banning, and very old news.
"a little more lsitening and a little less manipulating"... is that what you told your daughter as well. I love the M word... it just makes me want to ... mmmm... peace.. calm... happy place... happy peaceful place....
The Amish thing was not a joke. I have emphasized this again and again and again. Many program parents have commented that most growth their kids have had came from introspection, and time spent on their own. The exorcism comment was simply to allude to the lack of evidence supporting the efficacy of programs (about as much). Behrens study... hmm.. done by an ed-con, on program picked kids. PFFt. oh... yeah.. that's a real reliable source. NEXT!
You say: "prove it doesn't work!!!" Wait here.. you're putting the burden of proof on me... Ok... So you come out with a new drug... you need to prove it works to the FDA to sell the thing. It's to protect consumers. If they FDA didn't exist, you could sell crack and say it cured aids. I would say that you're full of shit, that it's obvious BS, and you would say "prove it"... Fucking topsy turvy that one is. Show ME it works. If everything was as fine and dandy as you claim, you wouldn't be here trying to pull statistics out of your ass... What is your interest? Let's see here.. a program parent obsessed with industry statistics... Hmm... That does not strike me as very likely. There is a market in this industry for bullshit statistics. You get to say you debated the statistics with anti-program advocates. You get to say it was conducted in an open forum for debate.. bla bla bla bla... Marketing with half-truthes, lies, and Manipulations. Eah.
Most program that are open now are only as good as they are young. 10 years ago, TB was given raving reviews, Western Samoa was a wonderful place to send the kids, and High Impact was just a fun wilderness experience. Give it time. Spin only lasts so long before people discover the truth.
Again. I ask you: retract your accusation or quote me and cite sources.
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I think it is important for parents to understand what they are getting into.. not the lies they are told from former used car salesmen that suddenly opt to be "admissions directors" for these programs. The cult like activities and the view that these uneducated program owners think they know what is better for your child then you do. They tell you its like a summer camp with disapline. You are forcefed BS, anything you want to hear.. to let you believe they will be in a positive experience. Accepting children of any issue.. I have even seen advertisements that these programs are acceptable for children with Aspergers Syndrome. Tell me "The Who".. how could a program provide for a meek teen with aspegers, a child who is severely depressed, a drug addict and a gang member possibly benefit from the same program? You don't have to tell me I'll answer for you.. abusive cult like activities that brainwashes the students.
I have seen what it does to families first hand. You get your "admissions director" to sell these programs like it is the answer to their dreams.. they will have their "child" back. It will be a fabulous uplifting experience. The weak and desperate parents who only want what is best for their child ask question after question to make sure the program they choose will be different from all the abusive programs they have heard about. Only to be reassured that this is different. That was that "other" program. When in reality you have hired the same people from the former program that was shut down. They just changed their names and moved on. As a parent you couldnt imagine that people could get away with child abuse as a practice. It must be against the law.. it must have just been that program or it was a mistake or accident. It isnt until you have your child come home abused, mentally/emotionally traumatized or in a bodybag.. that you realize you have been duped.
Don't try to stiffle PSY because he has the guts to tell the parents EXACTLY what they are getting into and let your dirty little secret out. He is taking his own free time to warn people about these programs. He isnt sitting on his big fat blood money bank account trying discount the very few people who arent afraid to speak out about their horrible experiences. May you choke on every dollar you make from abusing kids.
Damn... That's a good post. So much condensed in so little space. Very very well said.
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Psy doesn't need ST to get his message or his story out. They can ban him all they want and still, naive newbie ST parents will find out about Fornits and other forums on their own.
And they won't be able to help themselves from coming over to see what the opposition has to say about dog kennel obedience training for young humans...
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Psy wrote:
"a little more lsitening and a little less manipulating"... is that what you told your daughter as well.
Ah..the real Psy comes out,….More assumptions and “sharp stick†tactics to take the focus off yourself. This is why you need to mature a tad, Psy. This need to make personal attacks against me and my family because you are forced to live by your own rules, not a good sign.
The Amish thing was not a joke.
Okay but does it work? If it does, show us the evidence, maybe a control study from an independent source. I don’t want to hear it from the Amish..it would be too bias, right? And don’t site me an independent research firm because they are all making a profit, doesn’t fly here on fornits.
The exorcism comment was simply to allude to the lack of evidence supporting the efficacy of programs (about as much).
So no evidence their either, that’s what I thought. So showing lack of evidence to show lack of evidence..Hmmm…might work someplace else?
You say: "prove it doesn't work!!!"…. you're putting the burden of proof on me…
Yes, that is what I hear every day…catch, your turn. Don’t tell me all kids are abused because you say you have been, you are only one person, just like I am only one parent. How could I possibly be representative of a majority? How can you be?
Nothing counts unless we all agree on the controlled study and nobody gets paid….
Most program that are open now are only as good as they are young. 10 years ago, TB was given raving reviews, Western Samoa was a wonderful place to send the kids, and High Impact was just a fun wilderness experience. Give it time. Spin only lasts so long before people discover the truth.
So you site 2 places? The industry has grown by over an order of magnitude since 1997 and schools that cant keep up or abuse kids are falling quickly by the wayside. We all know this, thousands of kids graduate and move on every year and how many end up not doing well?
Again. I ask you: retract your accusation or quote me and cite sources.
No ….prove to me that providing a parent with statistical information to help their child in crisis is less important than a child telling their story on the internet, as you did earlier.
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Think of TheWho as Brer Rabbit and pretend you're the Tar Baby.
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Oh come on that’s only the tip of the ice berg, lets be honest, no exaggerating here, we need to be credible or no parents will believe us. Here is a more complete account:
No food.
Sexual abused in everyway.
Repeat beatings.
No water.
No bathroom.
No bedding.
Little items I had were stolen, like my sweaty hat and shoes.
My Bible ripped and wrecked.
What little food I got, stolen from me.
Forced to drink cum, piss, eat shit.
Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason. (my favorite)
No toilet paper.
Had rocks and items thrown at me.
Locked in a hot, wooden box.
Forced to eat paper.
Forced to be naked for a week.
Thrown into the ocean during a typhoon. ( I think he would keep blowing back ,would'nt he?)
Kicked down a hill and had logs thrown on me.
Had a chair slammed into my gut.
Obtained more skin diseases than a POW in Vietnam.
Forced to carry "sandbags" of rocks up and down hills.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=80 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21145&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=80)
Why would theWho copy/paste this from a survivor's story and add his own disgusting comments and make fun of child abuse?
There was an event that struck me as kind of absurd and a little funny, at the time, that’s all.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21604&start=10 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21604&start=10)
Oh, that's all. What a disgusting person to spend their time making fun of child abuse victims.
TheWho: making fun of child abuse victims.
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Wow, I know I'm stating the obvious here, but this has turned into another Who thread...
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Wow, I know I'm stating the obvious here, but this has turned into another Who thread...
Yeh, I guess I will take the hit for derailing this thread and highjacking it... what a mess !
(http://http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/bourbonnais/amtrak5.jpg)
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Psy wrote: "a little more lsitening and a little less manipulating"... is that what you told your daughter as well.
Ah..the real Psy comes out,….More assumptions and “sharp stick†tactics to take the focus off yourself. This is why you need to mature a tad, Psy. This need to make personal attacks against me and my family because you are forced to live by your own rules, not a good sign.
The Amish thing was not a joke.
Okay but does it work? If it does, show us the evidence, maybe a control study from an independent source.
OOHHH.. so now YOU want proof when the situation is reversed. Proof that it works, not that it doesn't. The irony here ... it's .. well it's pretty fucking hilarious to me.
I don’t want to hear it from the Amish..it would be too bias, right? And don’t site me an independent research firm because they are all making a profit, doesn’t fly here on fornits.
The exorcism comment was simply to allude to the lack of evidence supporting the efficacy of programs (about as much).
So no evidence their either, that’s what I thought. So showing lack of evidence to show lack of evidence..Hmmm…might work someplace else?
You say: "prove it doesn't work!!!"…. you're putting the burden of proof on me…
Yes, that is what I hear every day…catch, your turn. Don’t tell me all kids are abused because you say you have been, you are only one person, just like I am only one parent. How could I possibly be representative of a majority? How can you be?
Nothing counts unless we all agree on the controlled study and nobody gets paid….
Are you trying to perform a controlled study on Fornits?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Most program that are open now are only as good as they are young. 10 years ago, TB was given raving reviews, Western Samoa was a wonderful place to send the kids, and High Impact was just a fun wilderness experience. Give it time. Spin only lasts so long before people discover the truth.
So you site 2 places?
Actually, I cited three, one of which is still open, Tranquility Bay, of which a staff member, Randall Hinton, is on record stating that he peppersprayed a boy three times a day... Foreign soil.. Natives don't give a fuck about rich whilte kids. Here's one from the trekkers list... don't know if this made public: after a suicide by jumping from balcony (somehow got past bars), students were made to clean up the mess themselves with their towels.
Do I have to list every single facility that has been shut down during the past decade... Hmm.. The CEDU/Brown Schools (of which there are now clones all over)... The Straight Schools(of which there are clones as well)... Alldredge academy, renamed the Ayne institute the next day, retained it's public name... The Challenger series of wilderness programs (63days.com is a good educational resource)...
Hell... why not just cross em all off. Let me ask you a question: Do you have any examples of programs that have been around for 30 years or greater... But at the same time, keep in mind that CEDU was open for almost 40 years before the very consistent allegations of abuse started to be noticed.
Oh... but programs change.. really they do. Bullshit. I've talked with a woman who was in CEDU when it started, and the workshops, the raps, the work ethic... it was all identical. And I wasn't even in CEDU. I was in a CEDU clone, Benchmark, started by a Program Director, who gave birth to the bastard child known as Benchmark (Woodbury reports seal of approval TWICE... and they are in the parent empowerment handbook)...
The connections between IECA and NATSAP you ignore... The 100k contribution from Aspen to IECA, you ignore... The bidirectional ad-referrals you ignore (Benchmark refers to IECA, IECA refers to NATSAP schools, of which Benchmark is a member). NATSAP and IECA share board members, bla bla bla. Oh yeah. This is a real legitimate industry. Who the hell do you think you are fooling. They're different arms of the same institution. Staff transfer around, assured that once you're in the club, you got a job forever... You can even become an Ed-con, like Lon Woodbury did after RMA (defunct).
The industry has grown by over an order of magnitude since 1997 and schools that cant keep up or abuse kids are falling quickly by the wayside. We all know this, thousands of kids graduate and move on every year and how many end up not doing well?
Why Isn't Fornits teeming with happy program kids, reminiscing about the good old days, with the raps/groups, and the profeets/seminars and the bionergetics/motivating and the hard labor/work ethic and the consequences(punishment)... And the rules that never stood still...
It seems to me, that on an unmoderated forum, there would be more kids here saying "god... i loved the place", if it was true. You might argue that we drown them out.. but if there truly were more of "them", we would be the ones drowned out.
Betty sembler... she claims something like 15000 lives saved (sober, etc etc...). Go look at the straight forum. Pay special attention to the "I just" thread.
WWASP claims 95% sucess rate... nuf said there.
Benchmark claims 95% graduation rate (but not in writing)... Funny I've solicited for, but have not received one positive review, while I have gotten many survivors telling me how it's about time somebody stood up to take them out.
Again. I ask you: retract your accusation or quote me and cite sources.
No ….prove to me that providing a parent with statistical information to help their child in crisis is less important than a child telling their story on the internet, as you did earlier.
Statistical information... From what source data? Through what avenue do you intent on delivering your statistics to parents? Highest bidder? Or have you already been compensated?
Having you be the source of any type of statistical information, frankly, scares me... You giving information to parents, terrifies me.
But to get back on topic... and no.. you answer my question first since I asked it first...
Is it possible not to have a point of view? If you say yes, you're fooling yourself.. or brain dead (both are plausible in this case); however, a point of view is no reason to ban somebody, especially when it is presented in a respectful manner, and nobody is offended. You say "Not everyone was banned, just you and its because you were not helping with the situation or speaking on an adult level"[/u]... Support it if you can. But you can't. So you will change the subject, or leave out this portion of the message in your response.... maybe bring up the gorilla again.
Now this time, answer with specific quotations, and links to the source posts. Come on now. You aren't a computer novice. Copy and paste is really simple. Stop proving me right by continuing to ignore that which you cannot answer... you are never wrong are you...
If you use a mac: command(apple)+C = copy ; command(apple)+V = paste
if you use a pc: ctrl+c = copy ; ctrl+v = paste
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No detailed stories of sexual abuse for you to publicly make fun of tonight TheWho? No wonder you are bored!!!! Where are those witty remarks at the expense of sexual abuse victims ?
Copy/pasted from this thread of post made Sat Apr 14, 2007
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21209 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21209)
TheWho writes the next day Sun Apr 15, 2007 in response to a guest in another thread:
Oh come on that’s only the tip of the ice berg, lets be honest, no exaggerating here, we need to be credible or no parents will believe us. Here is a more complete account:
No food.
Sexual abused in everyway.
Repeat beatings.
No water.
No bathroom.
No bedding.
Little items I had were stolen, like my sweaty hat and shoes.
My Bible ripped and wrecked.
What little food I got, stolen from me.
Forced to drink cum, piss, eat shit.
Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason. http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=80[/url]
Why would TheWho copy/paste this from a survivor's story and add his own disgusting comments and make fun of child abuse? The comments int he parenthesis are TheWho's, the rest was copy/pasted from a survivor testimony posted one day earlier, detailing sexual abuse and other horrible forms of abuse.
There was an event that struck me as kind of absurd and a little funny, at the time, that’s all.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21604&start=10 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21604&start=10)
He disgustingly uses the most graphic details of a survivor's abuse story to make jokes. He is making fun of a child abuse victim who is explaining they were sexually abused, and he makes fun of the very next day. TheWho has some maturing to do!
If you talk about being abused in a facility I know nothing about, I will believe you.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=12820&start=120 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=12820&start=120)
He is also a CONFIRMED liar.
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i aggree with all the above.. but can you post it in The Who thread. I'm trying to keep the turd from changing the subject from the question he has been avoiding for the past two pages.
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Psy, the new Robert Bruce.
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"No ….prove to me that providing a parent with statistical information to help their child in crisis is less important than a child telling their story on the internet, as you did earlier".
This statement is exactly what is wrong with the entire self-regulated industry. Statistical information is only as good as the study itself... and we all know that the study is only as good as the person who is paying for it spins it. I think they have a term for it... yeah, its called "marketing". I'll tell you why its important. Becuase it happend. Its real. If he has a story to tell and he was abused in the same programs that have the SAME MINDSET it is going to happen again. Parents from California will assume the same child abuse laws are enforced in other states. They are shocked when they hear that other states allow this type of activity to go on.. and not be charged with endangerment, negligence &/or recklessness. It is important for a parent to know from a students perspective if not MORE important to hear what actually happends in behavioral modification setting. If I am having surgery to remove cancer, will I look at the statistical factors in having the cancer removed.. well .. sure.. Would I be more interested to hear a story of a person in my exact situation that had the cancer removed and went throught the surgery. Yes, most definately. Would I want to to know the details of their experience .. you bet. These programs are self-regulated. Any moron can open a business... referral or program. If abuse occurs no one is held accountable. Fingers point in all directions and back at the parent for sending them to the program in the first place. We all know what happends from that point. They open another business or become an undereducated ed-con. Someone needs to let the parents know what happends in ALL these programs. Until there is federal regulations in place there are no "good programs" .. a parent can't tell a good program from bad program from a 10 minute prearrange visit. This "should be" a something the states should handle on their own. It has been proven that states such as Utah and Montana are not able to regulate these programs on their own and need the guidance of the federal government. There are other states that are pretty clear on the term child abuse and don't allow this activity. If it does occur people are held accountable and spend time in jail and no longer allowed to work in the "childcare" business.
PS. thanks psy.. :)
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Psy wrote:
OOHHH.. so now YOU want proof when the situation is reversed. Proof that it works, not that it doesn't. The irony here ... it's .. well it's pretty fucking hilarious to me.
Thank you, the irony was intended
Are you trying to perform a controlled study on Fornits?
More like an out of controlled study…but to answer you , no.
Do I have to list every single facility that has been shut down during the past decade
No you don’t , they are shut down for a reason, but many here (like yourself) still like to reference them as examples, like the Edsel. The industry has moved on…
Statistical information... From what source data? Through what avenue do you intent on delivering your statistics to parents? Highest bidder? Or have you already been compensated?
Presumption again…tsk,tsk
Why Isn't Fornits teeming with happy program kids
Maybe because they are all busy in college and have moved on…
But to get back on topic... and no.. you answer my question first since I asked it first...
Oh, now you want to get back on topic…thought maybe you would be saddled with derailing the thread?
I answered your question and expressed my opinion on why you were banned. I think you will be allowed back on in short order if you can prove you can conduct a mature conversation. The personal attacks on my family and ridicule don’t help your cause any, Psy. I am not sure of ST’s rules but ridiculing the parents and their kids probably wouldn’t be a good idea as a response to them not taking your advice.
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Oh, now you want to get back on topic…thought maybe you would be saddled with derailing the thread?
I answered your question and expressed my opinion on why you were banned. I think you will be allowed back on in short order if you can prove you can conduct a mature conversation. The personal attacks on my family and ridicule don’t help your cause any, Psy. I am not sure of ST’s rules but ridiculing the parents and their kids probably wouldn’t be a good idea as a response to them not taking your advice.
We aren't on ST. I obey the rules on ST. Those rules don't apply here, and I don't feel like demonstrating on-que the sort of politesse you might desire. You show little to no respect to survivors around here, why should I bow down and treat you special... becuase you are an adult? I respect those who are deserving of respect, regardless of age. I respect clear thought, compassion, empathy, love and wisdom, none of which I see demonstrated in you. Were this a moderated forum, with rules dictating conduct, i would have to treat you with undue respect. Here, there are no rules, and thus, you get what you give. On ST, i hold my tongue.
But again... back to this:
Is it possible not to have a point of view? If you say yes, you're fooling yourself.. or brain dead (both are plausible in this case); however, a point of view is no reason to ban somebody, especially when it is presented in a respectful manner, and nobody is offended. You say "Not everyone was banned, just you and its because you were not helping with the situation or speaking on an adult level"[/u]... Support it if you can. But you can't. So you will change the subject, or leave out this portion of the message in your response.... maybe bring up the gorilla again.
You accused me of not speaking on an adult level. I am an adult. You are judging me based on your subjective standards of what is considered "adult"... I would like to see evidence of what you believe to have been non-adult "speaking" in my st posts. You keep ignoring the question.. this means most probably that: you are either too lazy to support your accusations, or, you know you made a mistake in that accusation but are too arrogant to admit it.
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PSY:
On your new discussion forum,
Why are you accepting, placing SPONSOR ADS for places like TOP FLIGHT ACADEMY, a program for troubled teen boys?
Isn't this the same type thing everyone was yelling at Kevin August over on Anti-WWASP about?
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would like to see the forum...
Psy? is this true?
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http://www.freepowerboards.com/strugglingppl/index.php (http://www.freepowerboards.com/strugglingppl/index.php)
I don't see any ads...
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I noticed FICA-USA (Kathy) is a mod. Is her site down or has the url changed? The link I have is dead.
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I found the following on FreePowerBoards.com. Maybe Psy can look into the ad-free option. Meanwhile, I have only seen ads for things like Hondas and mattresses. But it wouldn't surprise me if FreePowerBoards.com sold ads to any and all advertisers -- even to teen programs.
Sponsored Posting
What it is:
The sponsored post will show up only once per page, and only on the threads list page. This has been seen as an alternative to flooding your boards with several on every page, top and bottom, like most other hosts do.
These are ads that generate income to support our free services; fast servers, new features, fast support, etc.
** Without these ads there would be no FreePowerBoards.com **
The only way to remove these is through our ad-free program in your control panel. This program will remove the ads based on how many people you can refer to our services. This way, we can continue to grow and pay for our services even though you aren't displaying our ads.
What it isn't:
The Sponsored Post is NOT a bot, spammer, or something that can be deleted unless you participate in the ad-free program.
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Ok, I see it now. There is an ad for top flight in the thread list for the Program Questions forum. Psy, man you really need to find out about the ad-free option. Does it cost money, does it just require a certain number of users, posts, clicks on ads or what?
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Under the threads, Trash Bin, Management office, Industry Issues, and Program Questions:
The Ad for ODYSSEY WILDERNESS PROGRAM is shown for "Ads by Yahoo"
Do the ads just pop up and then disappear for these programs?
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The moderators are a prospective program parent, a couple program parents, a program counselor, a program survivor, and a program advocate.
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I logged in, using my nephews note book, and click on the ads a few times and then "Top Flight Academy" pops up...it is not always the first one you see when entering the site you may need to click it a few times (back out of the ad each time), then you will see it come thru. I have not seen ODYSSEY WILDERNESS PROGRAM yet, though.
But its not bad, at least Psy is showing some of the better schools..it would be closed minded of him to presume they were all the same. Seems he is being a little open minded and showing some maturity after all. Maybe being banned by ST wasnt all that bad for him after all!
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Is it mature to copy/paste a survivor's testimony detailing sexual and physical abuse in captivity and add your jokes?
Let's all think about that for a while...
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Look "Who" is talking. Blech!
Here's another Sleazy Response from TheWho about a sexual abuse victim:
Ha, Ha, Ha............. Sometimes this is too funny! You people will say anything to get attention or to manipulate... Ha, Ha, Ha... Well, you know, sometimes a kid getting anally gang-raped is the best way to deal with immaturity! You have to grow up some time.......Ha, Ha, Ha
This guy is SICK!
Nasty. Who, do you have a bloody clown suit in your closet? You're a sick bastard.
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Psy, you may want to ask your moderators Exhausted and Charly/Willie Nelson to hold down the "cat-fighting" on the Struggling Teens website, if you want either of them to maintain any type of credibility on your forum. Really sort of silly!
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This website might consider implementing a pay-for-access policy... obviously you have an asset here...
but here is the catch--- just charge TheWho.
Why...? Because he will pay it... :rofl:
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Is it mature to copy/paste a survivor's testimony detailing sexual and physical abuse in captivity and add your jokes?
Let's all think about that for a while...
When did maturity become a prerequisite for posting on fornits?
Ha,Ha,Ha
Okay, all kidding aside...lets all pause and think about that for a moment.
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I don't find the topic of child abuse and sexual abuse all that funny.
Oh come on that’s only the tip of the ice berg, lets be honest, no exaggerating here, we need to be credible or no parents will believe us. Here is a more complete account:
No food.
Sexual abused in everyway.
Repeat beatings.
No water.
No bathroom.
No bedding.
Little items I had were stolen, like my sweaty hat and shoes.
My Bible ripped and wrecked.
What little food I got, stolen from me.
Forced to drink cum, piss, eat shit.
Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason. (my favorite)
No toilet paper.
Had rocks and items thrown at me.
Locked in a hot, wooden box.
Forced to eat paper.
Forced to be naked for a week.
Thrown into the ocean during a typhoon. ( I think he would keep blowing back ,would'nt he?)
Kicked down a hill and had logs thrown on me.
Had a chair slammed into my gut.
Obtained more skin diseases than a POW in Vietnam.
Forced to carry "sandbags" of rocks up and down hills.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=80 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21145&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=80)
Why would theWho copy/paste this from a survivor's story and add his own disgusting comments {in parenthesis} and make fun of child sexual abuse?
There was an event that struck me as kind of absurd and a little funny, at the time, that’s all.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21604&start=10 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21604&start=10)
What a sadistic sense of humor theWho has. ::puke::
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Maybe you might want to consider that there is another agenda going on and somebody might be testing whether or not the "regulars" on ST can get away with more than Psy can!
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Repeat, it's silly!
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Come on PSY!
Top Flight Academy on 4 threads!????
This is not gonna work!
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Yeah, I have seen a Top Falight Academy ad and also an ad for Odyssey Wilderness And Expeditions.
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WTF?????
Program ads and Karen-in-Dallas moderating?
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I don't see any ads.. at all ..
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PSY:
On your new discussion forum,
Why are you accepting, placing SPONSOR ADS for places like TOP FLIGHT ACADEMY, a program for troubled teen boys?
Isn't this the same type thing everyone was yelling at Kevin August over on Anti-WWASP about?
They are keyword based ads. As soon as I move the board to a real domain, and stop using the "free ,with adds" service, that shit will dissappear. I was unsettled by some of the adds. too. NO. I do not get anything for the adds. register for a board at http://www.freepowerboards.com (http://www.freepowerboards.com) if you want proof.
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I want to add to this discussion that Psy's decision on who is moderating and for what reasons, are very good ones, it is HIS site and therefore it is his decision to place mods as he sees fit
Mine and WilieNelson's disagreements are in ST, when we are at Psy's site we have to deal with what is going on there, we are adults and are able to handle it - I am a moderator at more than one site and am able to put arguments aside in order to deal with the situation at hand