Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 28, 2007, 06:11:35 PM
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Daughter is almost 16. She was a cutter. She attempted suicide at the end of a relationship. She couldn't keep friends because she is hypersensitive and misperceives situations. Her therapists cannot figure out her pattern of thinking and think it is neurological or biochemical. She was depressed and said at one time an antidepressant was helpful. We have done lots of individual and family therapy.
She recently started smoking pot and drinking. She's made friends who are into the same thing. Most of their parents have given up on their kids. She feels supported and loved by her friends. She feels smoking and drinking has cured her depression, and is furious with me for trying to prevent it/control it. She won't take her medication. She won't go to therapy. She goes out when she pleases. She has her druggie friends over whether or not I've said no. She thinks its ridiculous that I would ask she not bring drugs and alcohol into the house and partake in her room with friends. When I try to enforce rules, she takes off. She'll tell me to f_ck off and how I'm trying to ruin her happiness and an hour later is incredulous that I won't drive her and her friends to a party.
Please advise, keeping in mind that we're human, with feelings.
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Send her on a semester abroad. Spain, Portugal, Germany, it's all good. Then you can replace her with a well behaved German exchange student and you can take a break and become refreshed.
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And how would we deal with her anger at being away from her friends and drugs, how would she be helped to not cut, kill herself or run away and how would she get some insight into why she's self medicating?
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Enforce your rules, you have every right to say no to who comes into your house and no to running her around in your car
Bear with her, it's typical of a teen of her age to do this, it'll probably pass, I was having the same panic myself not long ago
The worst thing you can do is go beserk, she won't trust you to listen to her, talk to her about it, ask her about using, arm her with the facts, let her know it's disappointing that she's choisen to do this, and you won't be supporting her using it in any way (no friends over, no smoking it in the house, no funding it, no taxi service)
Other than that, let her work it out for herself, be there when she's ready to talk, don't look down on her and let her know you are there for her no matter what, the rebellion won't be so appealing when its not getting at you - she's going to do it anyway, so shouting screaming and holering isn't going to do anything but push her closer to the very peope who encourage her to partake, they will become the people who 'understand' her
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Invite some niggers over to your house and have them scare the bejeezus out of her.
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Invite some niggers over to your house and have them scare the bejeezus out of her.
or just kick ass for the lored
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if u r a real person and not a "pretned" parent why dont u PM me? if u dont its pretty safe to say you are a "pretend" parent- an imposter who is inventing an imaginary case of teen hardship with the intention to establish programs are necesary
coming directly on the heels of the other imaginary case of teen hardship its rather suspicous
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Get a book called "Stop Walking on Eggshells" You might also want to get a copy of " I Hate You; Don't Leave Me." Both might help you understand how to communicate better and how to set sensible boundaries.
And if you are giving any thought to a program, be sure to read "Help at any Cost"
A copy of "Recovery Options," also by Szalavitz, might be worth reading. Not that I think your daughter's drug use is in need to "recovery" at this point, but it would help you both understand substance abuse better, and that could be helpful. It is an honest, straight forward and compassionate explanation of the problem, with suggestions about various recovery options - as the title suggests.
As for her wanting off her meds - let her stop them if she wants. It would be better to do so with a doctor's supervision - but if she has already stopped them, don't fight with her about starting them again. Truthfully - some of those Psch meds can do a young girl a great deal of harm. If she can function with out them, then thank God and let her alone. If she later feels she wants to try something along those lines again, she can always do so.
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We don't make diagnoses, and we're not EdCons. Coming to Fornits for a treatment recommendation is nonsensical. You seem a bit lost.
Besides, you couldn't afford my referral fee.
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Thank you for the book recommendations; I've already read two of them but will look into the others.
As to the other comments about accusing everyone who comes here with honest questions of being a pretend parent - how sad.
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zenagent, you sound like a 12 year old video game addict. If you're in Tennessee, everyone can afford your referral fee as well as purchasing your trailer, your gun rack, your hounds and your whole backwards state. sad for you, eh.
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Perhaps if your daughter does have a mental illness some kind of support group for parents with such children would be useful for you own sanity.
I would not try an separate this kid from her friends no matter how unsavoury they may be as it is more likely to instigate a rebellion. It might be an idea to encourage her to take up a hobby or sport with some other kids. This way she is at least broadening her circle and meeting a wider range of kids. What is she into? sport? Art? social issues? religion? there must be something.
If she is willing to think about it perhaps once she is a bit more stable a semester abroad is a good idea. Failing that if you guys are just driving each other crazy she could spend time with a loved relative
Best of luck
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Somethings, integrity for example, can't be bought for the mere price of the state of Tennesse, gun rack, hunting dog, beer can collection, and stack of really cool porn mags dating back to the 1970's.
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Daughter is almost 16. She was a cutter. She attempted suicide at the end of a relationship. She couldn't keep friends because she is hypersensitive and misperceives situations. Her therapists cannot figure out her pattern of thinking and think it is neurological or biochemical. She was depressed and said at one time an antidepressant was helpful. We have done lots of individual and family therapy.
She recently started smoking pot and drinking. She's made friends who are into the same thing. Most of their parents have given up on their kids. She feels supported and loved by her friends. She feels smoking and drinking has cured her depression, and is furious with me for trying to prevent it/control it. She won't take her medication. She won't go to therapy. She goes out when she pleases. She has her druggie friends over whether or not I've said no. She thinks its ridiculous that I would ask she not bring drugs and alcohol into the house and partake in her room with friends. When I try to enforce rules, she takes off. She'll tell me to f_ck off and how I'm trying to ruin her happiness and an hour later is incredulous that I won't drive her and her friends to a party.
Please advise, keeping in mind that we're human, with feelings.
What sort of advice are you looking for? Professional psychiatrict advice is not likely to be forth coming from this forum. Advice in general is possible.
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Daughter is almost 16. She was a cutter. She attempted suicide at the end of a relationship. She couldn't keep friends because she is hypersensitive and misperceives situations. Her therapists cannot figure out her pattern of thinking and think it is neurological or biochemical. She was depressed and said at one time an antidepressant was helpful. We have done lots of individual and family therapy.
She recently started smoking pot and drinking. She's made friends who are into the same thing. Most of their parents have given up on their kids. She feels supported and loved by her friends. She feels smoking and drinking has cured her depression, and is furious with me for trying to prevent it/control it. She won't take her medication. She won't go to therapy. She goes out when she pleases. She has her druggie friends over whether or not I've said no. She thinks its ridiculous that I would ask she not bring drugs and alcohol into the house and partake in her room with friends. When I try to enforce rules, she takes off. She'll tell me to f_ck off and how I'm trying to ruin her happiness and an hour later is incredulous that I won't drive her and her friends to a party.
Please advise, keeping in mind that we're human, with feelings.
Sounds about like my 10yo, minus the party favors. Never underestimate the power of voluntarily given acceptance and companionship to a kid who's been analyzed, DX'ed, drugged and harried or any kid's ability to find their own way given the chance. She was depressed, now she's not. Maybe she's a bit overly worried about losing her new found belongership and isn't real clear on reasonable restrictions and boundaries. Just remember you're the grown up and don't freak out.
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Pay no mind to the flak, it comes with the territory. Sometimes it can get a little heated and raw here. People have suffered and good graces are sometimes dispensed with.
Have you thought of doing some kind of volunteer work with your daughter, e.g., putting in some time at a soup kitchen twice a month? This would give you two an opportunity to spend time together where the focus is off the relationship, with a nice byproduct of getting some perspective on life.
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zenagent, you sound like a 12 year old video game addict. If you're in Tennessee, everyone can afford your referral fee as well as purchasing your trailer, your gun rack, your hounds and your whole backwards state. sad for you, eh.
I can't afford nuthin' but the old Atari, and I'm 'bout plumb wore out on that table tennis, that blip-blip-blip...
Muh double-wide's rented. Ya gotta have guns fer a gun rack and my fifth ex-wife took 'em.
But yew can damn well be sure of this, brutha - Muh hound is NOT fer sale. Ol' Hersh is all I got after payin' child support on a passel o' fifteen genetically challenged young'uns.
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Be a parent, but be supportive - not punitive.
OFFER love, OFFER advice, OFFER therapy, don't force it. Give her some distance, let her get some autonomy and let her do things herself.
DONT FORCE ANYTHING.
Don't flip the fuck out, don't be a control freak, and don't look for an easy answer... there are none.
All that you can do is be a parent and realize that it's not easy, and its about her, not yourself, about her well being, not your anxiety.
Hell, why not drink with her? :rofl:
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Be a parent, but be supportive - not punitive.
OFFER love, OFFER advice, OFFER therapy, don't force it. Give her some distance, let her get some autonomy and let her do things herself.
DONT FORCE ANYTHING.
Don't flip the fuck out, don't be a control freak, and don't look for an easy answer... there are none.
All that you can do is be a parent and realize that it's not easy, and its about her, not yourself, about her well being, not your anxiety.
Hell, why not drink with her? :rofl:
sounds like you have experience, you should write a book or something.
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Be a parent, but be supportive - not punitive.
OFFER love, OFFER advice, OFFER therapy, don't force it. Give her some distance, let her get some autonomy and let her do things herself.
DONT FORCE ANYTHING.
Don't flip the fuck out, don't be a control freak, and don't look for an easy answer... there are none.
All that you can do is be a parent and realize that it's not easy, and its about her, not yourself, about her well being, not your anxiety.
Hell, why not drink with her? :rofl:
sounds like you have experience, you should write a book or something.
I'll title it "breakfast at tiffany's mom's house, after that crazy night with the cucumber and the thousand island dressing".
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One of my offspring has been nagging me for months to look at this site. I am not one to weigh in on these forum things usually but this poor mother made me want to add my 2 cents. I remember how much teenagers had me wanting to tear my hair out. I tell my adult kids that it is all their fault i am grey, bald and fat.
I agree with the person who said going bezerk is not going to help no matter how tempting it is. What I would do is have a barbeque or social thing of some sort and invite the parents of these other kids around. See who turns up and get to know them in a low key social way. I would also grit my teeth and let her have these kids around. At least this way you know who her friends are and if your'e lucky whose house it is you are dropping her off at.
While i am old fashioned enough that I would but my foot down about letting them bring dope of any kind into the house I would probably pick my battles a bit and let them have a couple of drinks. The next few years a probably going to involve having all number of ratbags hanging around your house. I recall kids who wore black lipstick, a football team who all thought they were black guys from new york and vegetarian socialists. i always wondered if that lot would change their tune if their parents halved their allowance and evenly distributed it amongst the rest of their family. At the end of the day you will be relieved that your daughter trusted you enough to bring her friends home regardless of what you think of them.
Be aware that it is likely that even if she takes no drugs at your house it wont stop her when she is out and about. This is something lots of kids seem to go through and your only choices are to be aware of this or to follow them around trailing their every move. As you cant follow them everywhere all you can do is trust them and be aware that at this age they are going to do some stupid things.
I am sorry to hear that the girl is depressed. it might be an idea to have a chat with her doctor and see what they have got to say. See if there is a different medication and get the doctor to talk to the kid privately about any risks to health the recreational drugs might have in regard to her medical issues. I dont think one of my kids ever listened to me on this topic. Everyone knows parents dont know anything because kids invented sex and drugs
:wink: but sometimes they do listen to other adults who are not the mum. If the girl does not have a doctor she can trust then shop around and get a new family doctor.
Good luck
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Ordinary Dad - that is all excellent advice. I wish it came naturally to more parents.
My daughter (who was *very much* like this young girl) also often brought her friends around. While this was at times disturbing, as they were usually on the odd side, and sometimes down right weird, I felt it was a good thing I got to meet them and develop some kind of relationship with them. It did prove positive when she began running away. I was often clued in to the fact she was still alive, and generally where she was, by one or another of these strange kids.
Also, I have to say, now that she is older and things have stabilized, and I am looking back instead of being in the middle of it all - I have to admit theses kids were interesting, and I am glad to have met them.
And to the mom - I do know what you are going through, and how difficult it is. I know about the depression. The self injury. The outragious damands, the flashes of rage and fits of temper. The stress is overwhelming. But know that it does get better.
My daughter once literally ran away with a circus. Another time she took off with the rainbow people and camped out in the national forest for several months. Another time left to paint murals in NY NY - and ended up in Tucson AZ. She is now settled down with a really decent guy, and happier than she has been since she was a child on Christmas morning. I would not have dreamed it possible when she was 16.
My one biggest regret: making her take the meds the doctors said would help. True, it seemed that they did - but it was never a lasting benefit - and the negative side effects, she will live with the rest of her life. It would be different had she wanted to take the medicine. Some do get such benefit from them that they wouldn't want to ever be with out them - but she wasn't in that camp. I was wrong to insist.
But it was part of what had to be done to keep her in school - my second biggest regret. Trying to keep her in school - where she was so miserable, was (looking back) insane. I just couldn't deal with the fact my extremely intelligent daughter couldn't get through high school. But she couldn't, and trying to force the issue was a big mistake. Her GED scores are off the charts, 3 and 4 year college level - which is better than the diploma she would have had if she had ever gotten out of 9th grade.
Part of what you will need to do is readjust your expectations, and look for ways to help her be happy, even if it isn't at all what you think this should be.
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My daughter once literally ran away with a circus. Another time she took off with the rainbow people and camped out in the national forest for several months. Another time left to paint murals in NY NY - and ended up in Tucson AZ. She is now settled down with a really decent guy, and happier than she has been since she was a child on Christmas morning. I would not have dreamed it possible when she was 16.
That's so cool. What attracted her to the circus? So she was yearning for some adventure, life experience. How might it have been different for her if she hadn't had to runaway, if you had been supportive of her experimentation.
My one biggest regret: making her take the meds the doctors said would help. True, it seemed that they did - but it was never a lasting benefit - and the negative side effects, she will live with the rest of her life. But it was part of what had to be done to keep her in school - my second biggest regret.
That is slowly changing. Texas led the way and many states are coming on board in preventing school districts/personel from requiring meds. Sorry you were pressured.
Trying to keep her in school - where she was so miserable, was (looking back) insane. I just couldn't deal with the fact my extremely intelligent daughter couldn't get through high school. But she couldn't, and trying to force the issue was a big mistake. Her GED scores are off the charts, 3 and 4 year college level - which is better than the diploma she would have had if she had ever gotten out of 9th grade.
It's really unfortunate that the square pegs are forced into the round holes. Kids don't have as many options these days. She was intelligent enough to know they were wasting her time.
Part of what you will need to do is readjust your expectations, and look for ways to help her be happy, even if it isn't at all what you think this should be.
The best advice of all. What makes them passionate? Build on it!!!
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Thank you OrdinaryDad, Deborah, etc. I think the assumption is that I'm openly "freaking out" to my daughter, when really I've got to congratulate myself for remaining pretty calm. How can parents trust that it will get better or that our kids will be able to find their way, especially when there is a personality disorder involved? It was recommended that I "adjust my expectations", but that suggests that I have unreasonable standards. Her responsibility at this point is to get an education (and I've jumped through hoops and allowed her to change schools several times to her current school that is very easy on her) and to be reasonably respectful in our home, especially if she expects the same treatment.
So, she is expected to go to school. I need to know where she is, so if she disappears I know where to start looking. It being 4am and not knowing where your child is or if she is dead from alcohol poisoning or some pervert on the street is not an option. Parents should not be asked to endure that sort of thing. If I were to not be home especially in the middle of the night, I'd have the common courtesy to let my kids know where I am and answer my cell phone.
I should have the right to say who comes into my home. I shouldn't have to be a prisoner in my home, checking that my other children, pets, purse/money is safe when she wants to bring lord knows who into the house.
Because her self-esteem seems to be so low, she tolerates behavior (from her "boyfriend" and friends) and takes risks she shouldn't. It doesn't seem she can be trusted to look out for her own basic safety.
Part of the problem for sure is that she has absolutely no interests and isn't passionate about anything right now. She used to dance, write, played a couple of sports. I like the soup kitchen idea and have also been encouraging her to arrange to keep busy working this summer. So far she's blown me off.
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///It was recommended that I "adjust my expectations", but that suggests that I have unreasonable standards. ///
The thing is, as reasonable as your expectations are, under the circumstances, they may be unrealistic. Coming to terms with this can be heartbreaking. It could be your daughter is one of the more high functioning type and you won't have to adjust your expectations down very much. But if she is on the side of less able to tolerate school and even employment - you might have to make some significant changes in your hopes and dreams and standards.
/// It being 4am and not knowing where your child is or if she is dead from alcohol poisoning or some pervert on the street is not an option.///
This isn't anything any parent feels is an option. It is often the reality though. My point was to try and reassure you that even if this becomes your reality, things can still turn out well.
///Part of the problem for sure is that she has absolutely no interests and isn't passionate about anything right now. She used to dance, write, played a couple of sports. ///
This might be more the meds than the illness. The mood stabilizers will stabilize mood all right - with a depression that dose not let up.
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"But if she is on the side of less able to tolerate school and even employment - you might have to make some significant changes in your hopes and dreams and standards."
If a child's reported "problem" with school or doing anything productive is that it isn't "fun" and she'd rather be getting high with her friends, wouldn't the parent be irresponsible for not getting help to see that school/eventual employment/self-suffciency is not a hope and dream, but necessary reality? Life isn't only fun. Of course its too soon to jump to conclusions, but how would a parent be expected "adjust expectations" to enable a child to become a 30 or 40 year old unemployed drug user? What's wrong with searching for help to avoid this possible path?
"This might be more the meds than the illness. The mood stabilizers will stabilize mood all right - with a depression that dose not let up."
I know too many people for whom medications have been a lifesaver. Even my daughter reported them somewhat helpful (not a miraculous change, but no longer suicidal and extremely depressed) when she was taking them regularly. Now that she's not taking them regularly, she's medicating with recreational drugs.
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There's nothing wrong with trying to help but something that a lot of people seem to forget is that despite our society's new definitions of adulthood and childhood, once someone is in their teens, they're basically a more hormonal and more-attractive adult than... a 'big kid'.
IOW you can't just force things or she'll resent you for it and block it out, whether its right or not, becuase its how teenagers are.
Hey, parenting sucks!
All you can really do, except get financially ruined and send her off to a program to make yourself feel better, is show the way and offer, not coerce, unless you want to get into constant power struggles and not only lose the battle, but lose your daugther when she's able to get up and get away on her own!
This isn't the rosy picture an Edcon or a program apologist is going to paint for you, but its the reality of it. Its more about teaching her how to do for herself and think for herself and make decisions for herself than you doing things to her or making her do things to do what you think is best.
I've got an IQ in the 99.8th percentile range, and my grades sucked. I never did homework, EVER. I dropped out of highschool to get a GED! Guess whose scores were 'honors'?
Right now the only reason I'm not an engineer is because my family lacks the money to send me to college and I dont have in-state tuition yet (they changed it from 6 months to a year for residency, thank you immigration!) and I moved less than a year ago.... oh, and because when I was a teenager I was MISERABLE and didn't give a shit about college, I wanted to be happy, so of course I won't get good grades if I care about school about as much as I care about the price of tea in china.
Now that I'm not miserable anymore, studying is oh so much easier!
At any rate, with happiness comes motivation to get somewhere in life. Try to help her find that, and ride out the shitty teenage years a lot of people have, and things should turn out OK. Just realize that you cant put your ideas of 'success' on someone who is someone else and probably doesn't care about it right now, and might not ever want to be successful in the way you see it.
Also, I remember reading a study about how to help reduce recidivism for teenagers (this was focusing on bootcamps) and they found that the only sure fire way to do that is to get them a job.
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"But if she is on the side of less able to tolerate school and even employment - you might have to make some significant changes in your hopes and dreams and standards."
If a child's reported "problem" with school or doing anything productive is that it isn't "fun" and she'd rather be getting high with her friends, wouldn't the parent be irresponsible for not getting help to see that school/eventual employment/self-suffciency is not a hope and dream, but necessary reality? Life isn't only fun. Of course its too soon to jump to conclusions, but how would a parent be expected "adjust expectations" to enable a child to become a 30 or 40 year old unemployed drug user? What's wrong with searching for help to avoid this possible path?
"This might be more the meds than the illness. The mood stabilizers will stabilize mood all right - with a depression that dose not let up."
I know too many people for whom medications have been a lifesaver. Even my daughter reported them somewhat helpful (not a miraculous change, but no longer suicidal and extremely depressed) when she was taking them regularly. Now that she's not taking them regularly, she's medicating with recreational drugs.
Medication is a solution to buy time until the chemical reaction in the brain is starting up again. A very close relative is just now undergoing a depression and where she actively was trying to find a painless way to meet Saint Peter, she now just would not care if she was run over by a truck. So the medication has removed the initiative actively to attempt suicide, but the depression is still there.
There are two ways to fight the depression. Here in Denmark lighter depressions have successfully being fought with extensive exercise. In fact doctors in our country can prescribe exercise as treatment.
Serious depression called for extensive treatment in hospitals - no oher places. Our outpatient programs are now an 20 week extensive program with 2-4 days per week with a mix of course adding to group therapy (The code of ethics for group therapy in Denmark calls for max. 1,5 hours per day. According to our research longer group therapy session results in psycho drama with no real results.) Additions course can be treatment of anxiety, exercise, dance, lunch (Some suffering from depression does not eat enough, so even lunch is made a kind of treatment.)
But the most important factor in the treatment is the close awareness and presence of the family. I dont know what your possibilities for taking time off from your job are, but you as a parent in person is needed, if you decide to take the treatment out of the house in order to remove her from the negative peer group.
I am there for my relative and was it my child, I would team up the professional help and seek some time off from the outside world in a place where she and me could be undisturbed. What about doing some hiking together with your child? It does not have to some disguised boot camp with excorts, handcuffs, restraints etc. Surely a large country like your most have a human approach to the wilderness where you can go both as parent and child.
But remember: The Wilderness option is only for lighter depressions and go yourself. Children dies outthere every year. It is not always the child next door who get killed. Sometime tragedy happens for you. So just to make sure that your child is not returned in a bag, go there yourself along with your child if you choose that option.
Another thing you have to decide on is if you want treatment or school for your child. You can not have both. When our hospitals starts their 20 week intensive treatment they order people on sick leave.
Forget those so-called therapeudic boarding schools. The level of the education IS NOT what you find in your local high school. They have to show you results academicly in order to justify the payment, so they offers light courses which on paper seem to show a raise in the grades. But it is an illusion and the child has to pay later. If she show poor grade think about pulling her this year - get her treated - and return healed next year.
Please feel free to comment.
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Have you considered a self help group for ppl whose children are mentally ill?
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Have you considered a self help group for ppl whose children are mentally ill?
This is also good advice. I found it very helpful for many years.
Herres something that might be useful: http://www.bpdcentral.com/bks/hope.php (http://www.bpdcentral.com/bks/hope.php)
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Another thought, along the soup kitchen lines. Many times there are walkathons, marathons, or races for some needy cause (hunger, AIDS, certain diseases, etc.). Sometimes the physical requirements for completing such a course are extensive, sometimes not. But even in the former case, volunteers are needed to staff the refreshment stations along the way. You two wouldn't be alone there, presumably. Often there are like 3-4 people per station (depends on the event, of course). That too, will take off some of the pressure and allow you two to interact as part of a small group, while still allow you to be doing something together, and for a worthy cause.
Just remember, however bad it gets, "this too, shall pass...!" :lol:
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Thanks again for the helpful suggestions. Covergaard, Denmark sounds like it is miles ahead of the U.S. in treatment methods. Not surprising.
I don't know how to convince myself that this too shall pass. She's being so stupid I'm not convinced she won't accidentally kill herself before this "phase" might pass. Early this week she was hit by a car while drunk. She only has minor abrasions, but my god, it could have been so much worse. Last night I was called by the community Teen Center to pick her up, she'd been found passed out in a bathroom stall. It was either me or the police to come get her. I'm thinking it may have been more "educational" to have the police come for her. Even her "friends" seem to think she's getting a little out there, she parties to excess even by their standards. Two hours later she's insisting that her boyfriend spend the night, incredulous.
I like the foreign exchange student suggestion, though I worry that her emotional problems would be exacerbated. Currently she's refusing to consider it because *I* suggested it.
We could really use a nice Aunt Sally in Bumfuck, Iowa for her to go live with right about now.
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No you couldn't...she needs you, she feels crap enough about herself without being sent off to live elsewhere because she's too much of a problem
Please don't take offence at this post but really, work together, sending her away will just make her feel more uloved than she does now, she's partying hard because she gets attention that way, be it good or bad, it's attention ...
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Im glad you brought that up exhausted.
Its sad far too many people forget how much being abandoned sucks for the kid.