Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: try another castle on April 24, 2007, 12:43:21 AM
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I've been thinking about this for a while, and please feel free to poke holes in my idea, but I was wondering, "OK, so what DO parents do with a teen they want to place in a TBS/Wilderness/Boot Camp?"
My idea: foreign exchange student program
Even if there is nothing wrong with the kid and the parents are being ridiculous, there is nothing wrong with a little perspective, you know? Learn a new culture, meet new people, fuck a new girlfriend/boyfriend, be in an entirely different place away from your family and friends that your parents obviously don't approve of. (They'll still be there when you get back.) It would be especially adventagous if the host home has a sibling the same age as the kid, so he/she can teach them how to get into all sorts of trouble.
I'm sure some parents will argue.. "but this is rewarding them for bad behavior!"
My response is, "Is this about punishment, or about help and growth?"
I don't care how "awful" a kid is, I think they certainly have the potential to benefit from this. I know that if I went abroad when I was 16, the culture shock alone would have snapped my ass into shape, because I would want to at least meet new people.
If academics are an issue, there are cultural exchange programs they can take over the summer, which do not require them to learn the language before they go, and they do not have to have a minimum GPA. It's for about a two month period, max.
http://www.mindspring.com/~bennettusa/usteen.html (http://www.mindspring.com/~bennettusa/usteen.html)
If the kid is reluctant to study some of the culture beforehand, you can simply say "Hey, if you don't learn this stuff, you will NEVER get laid over there."
Obviously, I certainly wouldn't want any sort of foreign exchange program to crop up that is geared for troubled teens, because I could certainly see that backfiring, and we could end up with host homes as terrible as those from Straight. I'm talking legit student exchange.
The trick is to get the kid to want to go. I know when I was that age, there were certainly countries I would have LOVED to visit if given the chance. (Especially Japan.) Maybe other teens feel the same way?
And besides, the kid's parents can trade up for a new model for a few months by becoming a host family themselves.
I dunno, maybe I'm being too idealistic.
I wanted to bounce it around with you guys first, and if enough people think it is a good idea, I might toss it out there on the struggling teens site. (Let's see how long it lasts.)
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I love it.
Here's another idea, another option, for a kid who wants something more hands on: volunteer work of some sort in a country that could use a helping hand, e.g., perhaps an apprenticeship-type stint for a few months in the summer. Might not even need to be in another country. Could be USA crisis- or poverty-stricken areas...
If some organization were to work out the kinks re. housing and sustenance for the stints, I bet it would be a very attractive option for parents, of all kids, not just those of "troubled teens"... esp. if there were to be some kind of recognition for said efforts bolstering the attractiveness of said kid's college application portfolio.
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This is exactly what my parents did with me. They hated my older boyfriend as he was awful. Awful sexy !!! They did not want to ban him outright and turn it into some kind of romeo and juliet sort of thing. But my dad figured it was a perfect time for me to go from being a day girl to a boarder at school. Exeat weekends therefore often consisted of me shouting profanities at my mum and stomping off to cry because Boarding school had cooled the romance of the century and it was all my parents fault. But also I was getting into a little bit of trouble at school and pissing the nuns off alot.
It was actually the headmistress at school that suggested I do an exchange because she felt it would be "broadening". I went to a boys boarding school in Rhode island which was letting girls in for the first time. I had a great time, was a little homesick at times but basically it was a really positive experience. I got a pretty good education at the particular school I was at and really liked the far more laid back uniform policy. My classmates whinged about a dress code but in comparison the the ridiuclous get up that I had to wear every day at home it felt pretty good to me.
The experience of being an outsider was also something that did build my self esteem in lots of ways. i was one of the better swimmers on the swim team because all of my teammates were from a colder climate and the exotic novelty factor worked in my favour socially.
To be honest when it was suggested to me I could not believe my luck. My parents were somewhat concerened about rewarding the fact that i had not had a fantastic semester particularly my father. But castle you are right . If It is about getting a kid to calm down a bit then it is a far more compassionate way of getting the same apparent result than picking a kid up in the middle of the night in a paddy wagon and taking them to a private jail.
At the end of the day I think an exchange does help kids to moderate their behaviour because while they may be happy to scream at their own mother for being the most fascist bitch in the whole world, it is rare that they will do this to a complete stranger. While it is true that when i came back i was hardly a "whole new girl" I did appreciate my life here a bit more and finished high school without too many big dramas.
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Aside from the perspective thing, I think that one thing that might be needed in these situations is for everyone to get the hell away from each other, which is why I thought about student exchange. Since obviously, the other option sure doesn't do anything productive.
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AHAAH! So you do have some inkling of Life in the States, Oz Girl! :rofl: Ah, let me see... Rhode Island, eh? Hmmm....
Very wise Headmistress, I must say! And it did do the trick, huh?! You lucked out.
The power of the occasional mentors and "maneuverers" in our lives cannot be underestimated!
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Hmmmm.
I suppose it depends on the "issues" that the teen is struggling with. For my daughter, this would not have been a good option.
She was clinically depressed. Cutting herself. Doing some hardcore drugs. What host family would want to take on those types of issues?
On the other hand, for those kids who are experiencing some level of angst, a culture change would be a good thing. I especially like the idea of humanitarian outreach for kids. There is nothing more fulfilling than giving of oneself IMHO. In my hometown, the opportunities to be an exchange student are reserved for those kids who are top of the class. A kid who is marginal, in trouble with the law, or not a 4.0 would never ever be considered. It's a sad truth.
In hindsight, I wish I would have tried to send my daughter to live with a grandparent or aunt/uncle, etc. Someplace where she could have changed schools, communities and her status quo. And it would have given our family a chance to "cool down" and learn some better communication dynamics.
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This is by far the most novel idea with a lot of good potential I've seen in a long time.
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I also think that as a realistic alternative, Castle's idea should not be thrown out of the range of possibility so quickly, Truth Searcher. I recognize that while there are many things that could go wrong, the benefits to the long range development of the teen would be astronomical in either the volunteer setting or the volunteer FOREIGN aspect. As for finding "hardcore" drugs as a fourteen year old in another country, I think we can agree that it would take much more than affluent street smarts.
It's a good plan. Run with it.
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It is only an alternative if the kid is willing. Also, many of these programs require good grades and recommendations.
Many of these teens refuse to leave their social network and comfort zone for any reason- may be a girlfriend/boyfriend or drug connection, but they are not motivated to go anywhere.
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Also, as for depression and self inflicted suicidal thoughts in the mid- teens. While I think every "attempt" to garner attention through suicidal acts and carving should be heeded seriously, I firmly believe that there are stages that depressed and normally chemically and hormonally wild youths go through. If the stressors to the current situation are relieved, and the distractions of another way of life, and culture where at hand, I'm sure I'd forget my petty problems. Talking to my parents a month after being dropped off in Japan would be enjoyable. Talking to the Japanese boy whose been going to my school and talking to my friends and sleeping in my bed in my parents house, would be so cool!. Clinical depression aside, other countries have psychiatrists, and as a trend they don't believe a pill will solve the problem. They would suggest a combination of change of scenery, stressors, and real therapy in the cases of true constant depression for a struggling teen, wouldn't they?
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Castle's idea should not be thrown out of the range of possibility so quickly, Truth Searcher
I wasn't aware that I threw the possibility out. I merely suggested that there are potentialities that would negate this for teens who are struggling with some heavy duty psychological issues.
Quoted by Truth Searcher
for those kids who are experiencing some level of angst, a culture change would be a good thing.
I do support this for many kids who are put in TBS's for lesser reasons (ie: failing grades, truancy, drug use, etc.) if the child sees this as an opportunity rather than a punishment.
Trouble is ... how many kids who are entrenched in a troubled lifestyle see an experience abroad as an opportunity? My guess is not many.
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exactly, it's a win win situation for the concerned families: the kid is going somewhere they don't (at first) want to be. The parents know their separating their children from the angst and stressful situations at home, and also that the teens will be learning priceless future skills that are pliable to the workplace. That's very different than the programs known as TBS's.
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A lot of posters here accuse parents of "wanting to get rid of their kid" or "wanting to ship off their problem to someone else". I think this is another version of that.
exactly, it's a win win situation for the concerned families: the kid is going somewhere they don't (at first) want to be. The parents know their separating their children from the angst and stressful situations at home, and also that the teens will be learning priceless future skills that are pliable to the workplace.
This sounds like you are describing a program.
That's very different than the programs known as TBS's.
Not really just a change of location. Instead of wilderness, it's in some city. If the kid has issues, then what makes you think their host parents will not be even worse than their normal parents?
And the person who said a 14 year old wouldn't be able to find drugs overseas, that is the dumbest thing I've heard, of course they would be able to. I would of hated this idea at that age, to leave all my friends, school and day to day life would not have been something I would have done willingly.
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Trouble is ... how many kids who are entrenched in a troubled lifestyle see an experience abroad as an opportunity? My guess is not many.
Exactly. Very few is my guess, the one's who never should of even been considered for private placement in the first place. This idea is another in the long line of ideas from program survivors. I take issue with these ideas because it suggests that kids need to be sent far from home. I disagree with this philosophy. There are community based treatment models that are much more effective and allow the kid to accept these ideas into their life. Otherwise , nothing changes when they come home. They have their overseas life, and then when they come home everything is EXACTLY the same as when they left it. No family therapy, no therapy, no anything.
If a kid is in well enough condition to be able to deal with overseas travel, then they are well enough to stay at home.
I'd say make the argument that many kids do not belong in programs at all, and the ones that do belong in real treatment and not abusive programs. But this has nothing to do with the troubled teen subject because you wouldn't send a troubled teen overseas in the first place, what good would it do? Why would they go willingly?
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This makes me think of Martha's Vineyard. I had a rich uncle who used to rent a cabin on the Vinyid every year and invite my mom and me and each of his kids friends and such. In her mind, the Vinyid was a wealthy person's playground and, therefore, safe from drugs and vice and all those things she associated w/ poverty. So, for two weeks out of the year, I had a little freedom. Of course there were drugs and trouble on the Vinyid. It's a tourist destination for Christ's sake! But mom didn't see it so she didn't hassle me and so I got my mental health break each summer/
So I suppose anything that mollifies the parents fears w/o actually working the kid over would fill this bill?
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I'm all for exchange programs for as many people as possible. I'd hate to see them being used as an escape for kids needing to get away from douche bag parents, but sometimes that is what is needed.
Side Note:
Seriously people if you want to broaden your bean sprout's horizons send them to an exchange program. They really are a hell of a good deal. I wish I would have had the chance to do one when I was younger. Instead I put off traveling until I was nearly 30. Regardless the growth I've experienced as a person has been amazing. It really does go along way to opening up ones mind to new ideas.
Back on topic:
Now if you want to keep your kid out of drugs I suggest you not send him to Amsterdam. However, I do believe Castle is suggesting that the kids one would be considering are the sort that you wouldn't need to worry about them necking themselves in the middle of the night, or finding them with a needle full of herion stuffed in their vien whilst sitting on the commode. Just the average kids that are struggling with their parents that otherwise would be sent to a TBS out of the parent's sense of misguided fear.
At least that is my read on it.
Not sure if I am in full agreement with it, but it does bear further examination.
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If a parent has this much extra cash laying around (is this forum populated by only rich parents or something? I guess..) save it until they turn 18 and let them travel in between high school and college on their own. Fuck this 'living with another family' bullshit, let them do some real traveling and not have to deal with another group of controlling, expectation filled weirdos who don't even speak the same language and probably secretly despise Americans to begin with. At 18 they can drink and have fun on their own and not have to hide it from their replacement family.
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Why in the hell would you pay for your kid to go get hammered for a year? Make them figure it out. If they want to go get drunk and screw everything with two legs then let them get a damn job and save the money to pay for it themselves.
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Why in the hell would you pay for your kid to go get hammered for a year? Make them figure it out. If they want to go get drunk and screw everything with two legs then let them get a damn job and save the money to pay for it themselves.
:rofl:
That's the answer I was hoping to get.
This is the exact response that a ST is going to give when you post this on their forum Castle, word for word.
TSW why would it be different for a 17 or 18 year old, why is there such a huge distinction there?
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However, I do believe Castle is suggesting that the kids one would be considering are the sort that you wouldn't need to worry about them necking themselves in the middle of the night, or finding them with a needle full of herion stuffed in their vien whilst sitting on the commode.
These aren't potential program parents. If they are, then only three words of advice is needed, no program necessary.
Just the average kids that are struggling with their parents that otherwise would be sent to a TBS out of the parent's sense of misguided fear.
So that same fear is going to allow them to send their child across the planet and have more freedoms than they've ever had in their life? How exactly would that thought process work? "Hey, I am terrified my kid is going to die of drugs, so I'll send them across the planet!" Get real.
This has nothing to do with the troubled teen industry at all.
The only connection is the agreement that many kids do not deserve private program placement. That doesn't mean you have to offer some other extravagant option as if they are the only two choices. I don't know what kind of nerd would enjoy being away from friends and school for a year to speak spanish or french to some strangers. We made fun of german exchange students at our school, they had no friends and had a horrible time. Maybe its because everyone called them nazis?
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Why in the hell would you pay for your kid to go get hammered for a year? Make them figure it out. If they want to go get drunk and screw everything with two legs then let them get a damn job and save the money to pay for it themselves.
:rofl:
That's the answer I was hoping to get.
This is the exact response that a ST is going to give when you post this on their forum Castle, word for word.
TSW why would it be different for a 17 or 18 year old, why is there such a huge distinction there?
In my mind I see it like this. If a 18 year old wants to travel then can go travel. They can also save up the expenses of such traveling before hand.
How is being 17 relavent to your original point when you stated that the parent should wait till their kid is 18. If the kid is 17 I still say they can save up their cash and pay for their own traveling. I was traveling all over the place, alone, by the age of 17, though none of it was out of the country. I paid for the majority of it myself.
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I do believe Castle is suggesting that the kids one would be considering are the sort that you wouldn't need to worry about them necking themselves in the middle of the night, or finding them with a needle full of herion stuffed in their vien whilst sitting on the commode. Just the average kids that are struggling with their parents that otherwise would be sent to a TBS out of the parent's sense of misguided fear.
You said you agree with this option for "average kids struggling with their parents", which is every teenager alive on the planet. So I asked why would a parent pay for a 17 year old or 14 year old to go on this trip, and not their 18 year old. What is the difference? A 14 year old will have just as much sex and booze as an 18 year old, the only difference is the parent "thinks" they aren't "Allowed" to do those things.Is being honest about it too scary?
What is an alternative for the kid strung out on coke, cutting themselves, suicidal, depressed, and hearing voices? Send them on a cruise to the Riviera?
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However, I do believe Castle is suggesting that the kids one would be considering are the sort that you wouldn't need to worry about them necking themselves in the middle of the night, or finding them with a needle full of herion stuffed in their vien whilst sitting on the commode.
These aren't potential program parents. If they are, then only three words of advice is needed, no program necessary.
Just the average kids that are struggling with their parents that otherwise would be sent to a TBS out of the parent's sense of misguided fear.
So that same fear is going to allow them to send their child across the planet and have more freedoms than they've ever had in their life? How exactly would that thought process work? "Hey, I am terrified my kid is going to die of drugs, so I'll send them across the planet!" Get real.
This has nothing to do with the troubled teen industry at all.
The only connection is the agreement that many kids do not deserve private program placement. That doesn't mean you have to offer some other extravagant option as if they are the only two choices. I don't know what kind of nerd would enjoy being away from friends and school for a year to speak spanish or french to some strangers. We made fun of german exchange students at our school, they had no friends and had a horrible time. Maybe its because everyone called them nazis?
No idea, but most of the exchange students at our school were treated pretty well. Maybe your school was filled with uncivilized morons? No telling what the case could be. However, I do agree that if a kids is capable of handling their own shit in another country makes a program a total joke. Now if you look over my post you will see where I said very clearly stated that I didn't completely agree with the scheme, but it still bears investigation.
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I do believe Castle is suggesting that the kids one would be considering are the sort that you wouldn't need to worry about them necking themselves in the middle of the night, or finding them with a needle full of herion stuffed in their vien whilst sitting on the commode. Just the average kids that are struggling with their parents that otherwise would be sent to a TBS out of the parent's sense of misguided fear.
You said you agree with this option for "average kids struggling with their parents", which is every teenager alive on the planet. So I asked why would a parent pay for a 17 year old or 14 year old to go on this trip, and not their 18 year old. What is the difference? A 14 year old will have just as much sex and booze as an 18 year old, the only difference is the parent "thinks" they aren't "Allowed" to do those things.Is being honest about it too scary?
What is an alternative for the kid strung out on coke, cutting themselves, suicidal, depressed, and hearing voices? Send them on a cruise to the Riviera?
No I did not agree with it. Please look my first post over carefully before you start jumping to conclusions. I said the idea is worth more investigation, even if I didn't completely agree with it.
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Back on topic:
Now if you want to keep your kid out of drugs I suggest you not send him to Amsterdam. However, I do believe Castle is suggesting that the kids one would be considering are the sort that you wouldn't need to worry about them necking themselves in the middle of the night, or finding them with a needle full of herion stuffed in their vien whilst sitting on the commode. Just the average kids that are struggling with their parents that otherwise would be sent to a TBS out of the parent's sense of misguided fear.
At least that is my read on it.
Not sure if I am in full agreement with it, but it does bear further examination.
Yes it appears you did put in a disclaimer.
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There's no question at all that a vacation... or practically anything is a better alternative to program.... However, to me it seems like it's just postponing the inevitable conflict. Sure a teen might get enough relaxation to get along with the parents for a while, but how long will that last?
Now if somebody could come up with a good idea on how to get the parents and kids talking to each-other and getting along... that would be impressive.
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There's no question at all that a vacation... or practically anything is a better alternative to program.... However, to me it seems like it's just postponing the inevitable conflict. Sure a teen might get enough relaxation to get along with the parents for a while, but how long will that last?
I guess that would depend on how bad things were at home. From castle's original post i took it ot mean a situation where everyone is just driving each other a little bit mad and needed some time out to breathe as opposed to a totally disfunctional situation. Being a wide eyed optimist i tend to think that most families are in this boat.
I agree with truth searcher that an exchange or community service project is not appropriate for a kid with severe mental health issues, but then i dont think a program is either. The idea would be to send a kid on exchange before things had escalated to a totally out of control point.
As to willingness to go. Would it really occur to many kids to object too strongly? Not many people object to the chance to go on an adventure for a while.
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A few points regarding the responses:
1. Money. Is that really more than what you would be spending on a TBS? I don't think so.
2. Host families, from what I understand, need to be approved.
3. Truly troubled kids, i.e. hard-core drugs, suicide, cutting (that's really not that big of a deal, I've had people do it to me. It's a cross between a pain/pervert thing. Trust me.): I was depressed and had made two suicide attempts. Some time abroad definitely would have helped that. I know I am arguing the hypothetical here.
4. Time abroad and things will be exactly the same when they get back: Is that any different than a TBS? The only difference is that they are in a positive environment where they learn, not brainwashed into a false sense of well-being where they have no social skills coming out. Besides, I have a suspicion that a trip to another country is going to help turn a kid around a lot better than a TBS or doing nothing at all.
5. Academics: As I said before, there are cultural exchange programs (see my link in the initial post) that do not require knowing the native language or a high GPA. Max 2 months in the summer.
6. Sending your kid away is program mentality: Even the most troubled kid needs space once in a while. You may consider that you are "getting rid of your kid", but the kid is someplace positive. There is nothing wrong with needing space, just as long as the desire is not misplaced or abused.
7. Kids won't want to go. I agree to that possibility wholeheartedly. I myself would possibly be reluctant. This is where positive manipulation can come in. Sell your kid on it. I'm still working with this one. Even though there were things that were truly fucked up about me as a teen, there were still places I dreamed of going. Especially to get away from my parents. And like I said before, their same group of friends will be there when they get back. And hopefully, they will come back with pen (or email) pals after their experience.
8. What host family will want a troubled kid?: Who says the kid is going to be like that when they arrive in their host country? Give them some credit. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.
9. Yes, I agree, Amsterdam is off limits. :) Despite the fact that nothing goes better with drugs than whores.
How is being 17 relavent to your original point when you stated that the parent should wait till their kid is 18. If the kid is 17 I still say they can save up their cash and pay for their own traveling. I was traveling all over the place, alone, by the age of 17, though none of it was out of the country. I paid for the majority of it myself.
But not every kid is going to have as good a work ethic, gookie. Does that mean they shouldn't have the opportunity? There are lots of "non-troubled" teens who do foreign exchange and don't have the money for it.
Now if somebody could come up with a good idea on how to get the parents and kids talking to each-other and getting along... that would be impressive.
Problem is, psy, nobody is trained to be a parent. There may be books by idiots like Dr. Phil, but there is little truly useful things out there on how to work and communicate with a teenager who is an asshole, which is their job. My guess is that the best go-to person for this would be a GOOD schoolteacher, such as my best-friend. How to get along with a teenager? Good luck with that. That's like the holy grail of (as of yet) unanswerable questions.
My final point is: So what if the kid comes back and is still a sourpuss. At least you tried, you know? Couldn't hurt. Like I said, cheaper than a TBS or wilderness.
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We have exchange students here, it's a briliant way of getting abroad on the cheap! I can see how this would work with some children......
That said, the student has to meet the criteria, i.e. not be a problem in any shape or form, neither party would take on a 'troubled teen' (I hate that expression)
I also know for a fact not one of my boys would take up the opportunity, too low in self confidence - the 14 yr old went to Spain for a week with the school and loved every minute of it, but he was with his mates, I cried the whole week, he didn't give me a second thought :-?
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Hmmmm.
I suppose it depends on the "issues" that the teen is struggling with. For my daughter, this would not have been a good option.
She was clinically depressed. Cutting herself. Doing some hardcore drugs. What host family would want to take on those types of issues?
Yeah, this whole exchange program/overseas travel idea sounds great for kids whose only real issue is that they have dysfunctional parents or families. But it's ridiculous to think you can send an angry, depressed, hard-core drug addict with tons of emotional baggage to live with some strangers in another country...or worse, to travel alone in another country.
Not that you should send such a kid to a program either. But some kids really do need treatment, not just a 'cultural experience' or a change of scenery.
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Quote:
How is being 17 relavent to your original point when you stated that the parent should wait till their kid is 18. If the kid is 17 I still say they can save up their cash and pay for their own traveling. I was traveling all over the place, alone, by the age of 17, though none of it was out of the country. I paid for the majority of it myself.
But not every kid is going to have as good a work ethic, gookie. Does that mean they shouldn't have the opportunity? There are lots of "non-troubled" teens who do foreign exchange and don't have the money for it.
You said Foriegn exchange my comments were in regards to a kid buggering off for a year at the age of 18 to go drink and screw.
TSW
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Hmmmm.
I suppose it depends on the "issues" that the teen is struggling with. For my daughter, this would not have been a good option.
She was clinically depressed. Cutting herself. Doing some hardcore drugs. What host family would want to take on those types of issues?
Yeah, this whole exchange program/overseas travel idea sounds great for kids whose only real issue is that they have dysfunctional parents or families. But it's ridiculous to think you can send an angry, depressed, hard-core drug addict with tons of emotional baggage to live with some strangers in another country...or worse, to travel alone in another country.
Not that you should send such a kid to a program either. But some kids really do need treatment, not just a 'cultural experience' or a change of scenery.
Doing hard core drugs is differnt than being addicted to hard core drugs. One is a problem the other isnt- not so much that it is going to affect a host family, unless you insist on snorting cocaine off of the lox and bookizklog at your celebratory wecome dinner
angry? sad, emotional baggage? you get that FROM living with dysfunctional parents. I dont think feelings are pathology
Depression is a genuine illness and its a descriptive term that gets bandied abuot innaproriately. there is a difference between being miserable and being depressed.
The only cure for medical depression (ie. brain chemistry issue is medicine.
People whom are in miserable situations(abusive homes) are going to be unhappy
The only cure for situational deppression ie my parents beat,- Im freindless is situational happiness. Put the youth in a loving home, or at least not one where they are with someone who endangers them and let them develop bonds talents...you get happiness from life -not an insitution.
the problem is with all vacation/time away therepies is that eventually yo have to go back.
I recomend that all troubled teens stay with the family of a freind to get away formt their torubled parents
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I recomend that all troubled teens stay with the family of a freind to get away formt their torubled parents
I totally agree that this is a valid option. As Ginger and I had discussed earlier, this is what families did before the onset of the TBS industry. Maia talks about it in her book, too.
Like my idea, there are potential problems and will not fit with all situations, unfortunately. (Such as not having a family member who will take them in, or a functional family environment with relatives. [i.e. perverted uncle Frank, who-we-don't-talk-about]) But I think that both are good options, and much much better than the alternative, which does no good at all.
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The other option for kids who have having a tough time at home (bitter divorce, not getting along with a stepparent) is to spend a lot of time at a friends house. This happened a lot when I was a kid. I dont know if it still does now. Obviously a kid with real mental health issues needs real help but otherwise this is something to think about.
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The other option for kids who have having a tough time at home (bitter divorce, not getting along with a stepparent) is to spend a lot of time at a friends house. This happened a lot when I was a kid. I dont know if it still does now. Obviously a kid with real mental health issues needs real help but otherwise this is something to think about.
I did that when I lived with my dad, right before I got shipped off. My stepmother even actually agreed that I should spend an extra day there one time, because they couldn't come to pick me up. (It was on the "wrong side of town".. i.e. where the regular people live.)
Anyway, I crashed over at Mike and Debbie's all the time that summer before I left. I felt bad for their mom, since she already had five kids and now had to deal with another one. Point is, my parents didn't like any of them. Maybe because of their class, maybe because they were into wicca and I was Mike's apprentice, whatever it was, it didn't keep me from CEDU.
If a parent is narrow minded enough not to accept their kid's friends for stupid reasons, especially when they are cool, decent people who just might be a little weird, or poor, or another race, or whatever, then there is nothing you can do about the staying over part.
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Guest wrote:
angry? sad, emotional baggage? you get that FROM living with dysfunctional parents.
Well that is one possible cause. There are a myriad of other causes of course. Would you like me to spell a few out?
Guest wrote:I recommend that all troubled teens stay with the family of a friend to get away from their troubled parents
Talk about overgeneralizing. This comment takes the cake. I understand that troubled homes/parents often result in troubled teens. I also recognize that troubled teens can also come from homes where parents are fair, loving and consistent. No home is perfect as it is made up of imperfect people.
To imply that kids get off track simply because their parents are "troubled" is way over simplistic.
You need a reality check Guest.
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To imply that kids get off track simply because their parents are "troubled" is way over simplistic.
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I would agree there Truth searcher. Although often if there is turmoil in the home it does increase the stress that a kid is under. Sometimes it is just a case of everyone driving exch other nuts for a whole lot of reasons. In this case where there are no serious mental health issues both sides can probably do with some respite.
Castle i doubt your friends mum would have minded. If there are already 5 bodies in the house 1 more rarely makes a difference. I am 1 of 5 and there was often somebodies friend/s floating about.
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Guest wrote:angry? sad, emotional baggage? you get that FROM living with dysfunctional parents.
Well that is one possible cause. There are a myriad of other causes of course. Would you like me to spell a few out?
Please feel free to. Life is hard. Grinding poverty, war torn battle ravaged continent. Except those Issues dont apply to program kids as they are white middle class folk in the good ole' US of A. And pretty much the only thing available to trouble them over the next kid over, is...you guessed it -parents!
It is not one POSSIBLE cause..it is, in alomst all cases THE cause of the selfish crackdown on imaginary or valid "toubledness".
On the rare occasion where their is sadness and anger which stems from something else than a parent, such as rape- anger & sadness & emotional baggage are understandable emotions. It is not the youths job to be lovely, it is the parents job to be nurtuing It is only a toubled parent who cannot deal with these emotions .
Parenting is not a lunch date. If a lunch date is angry, defiant, sad than by all means dont see the date anymore. But one has more obligation to their kid.
A parent is not entitled to lock away a youth for a perception of these feelings anymore than a husband can lock away his wife for not being feminine enough. No one has the right to qualify those emotions and characteristics as insanity risable to institutionalization
Guest wrote:I recommend that all troubled teens stay with the family of a friend to get away from their troubled parents
Talk about overgeneralizing. This comment takes the cake. I understand that troubled homes/parents often result in troubled teens. I also recognize that troubled teens can also come from homes where parents are fair, loving and consistent. No home is perfect as it is made up of imperfect people.
To imply that kids get off track simply because their parents are "troubled" is way over simplistic.
You need a reality check Guest.[/quote]
Yes it is quite simple.Kids get "off track" becasue their parents are troubled. One does not have a "troubled teen" one creates or hallucinates a "toubled teen". 99% of the time.
As exhasuted said, However, yur not gonna make $ telling that to a parent..So enters program telling parents they are not responsible for the welfare of their kids and THAT-telling peple what they want to hear, that will make money.
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What is it to be troubled anyway? Cutting class, being defiant? Annoying mom and dad isnt insanity, nor is struggling emotonally. That is called being an adolescent. That is being any human who has a low quality home or life situation
Being angry, sad and having emotional baggage is not a pathology.The trouble with these programs is they have redifined what mental illness is to the point that ANYTHING including not being perky as insanity.
After 25 years in prison I suspect Nelson Mendela has quite bit of emotional baggage...anyone have a program for him?
Allowing parents who cant hack it to indulge their beleif that their intolerance to a human child is anything other than incompetance, selfishness, and barreness of spirit has made alot of folk alot of money. Everyone is making out like bandits...except the youth who pass their glory days wasting away or being broken inside institutions.
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Yeah, this whole exchange program/overseas travel idea sounds great for kids whose only real issue is that they have dysfunctional parents or families. But it's ridiculous to think you can send an angry, depressed, hard-core drug addict with tons of emotional baggage to live with some strangers in another country...or worse, to travel alone in another country.
Not that you should send such a kid to a program either. But some kids really do need treatment, not just a 'cultural experience' or a change of scenery.
Doing hard core drugs is differnt than being addicted to hard core drugs. One is a problem the other isnt- not so much that it is going to affect a host family, unless you insist on snorting cocaine off of the lox and bookizklog at your celebratory wecome dinner
angry? sad, emotional baggage? you get that FROM living with dysfunctional parents. I dont think feelings are pathology
Depression is a genuine illness and its a descriptive term that gets bandied abuot innaproriately. there is a difference between being miserable and being depressed.
The only cure for medical depression (ie. brain chemistry issue is medicine.
People whom are in miserable situations(abusive homes) are going to be unhappy
The only cure for situational deppression ie my parents beat,- Im freindless is situational happiness. Put the youth in a loving home, or at least not one where they are with someone who endangers them and let them develop bonds talents...you get happiness from life -not an insitution.
the problem is with all vacation/time away therepies is that eventually yo have to go back.
I recomend that all troubled teens stay with the family of a freind to get away formt their torubled parents
Yes, all clinically depressed or otherwise mentally ill and suicidal teens should get away from their "troubled parents" -- especially if they have expensive drug addictions that can only be supported by committing daily felonies. But as they play out their final days on the streets or wherever, they should let someone back home know where they are, so the family that supposedly made them so miserable will know where to find the body. Much better for everyone if that corpse doesn't have to be shipped from overseas.
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I have to agree with truth searcher Guest - yes I have made the comment that Psy has quoted me on (and he asked me very politely for permission too) but that was a private conversation between us, the quote was part of a whole conversation that isn't to be confused with what is being suggested here.
As an exampe, in my own situation, I have 3 off the rails boys, one I didn't bring up, two I did, so they've had totally different upbringings, yet the two I did bring up have been treated exactly the same way (bar the obvious individual needs they have simply because they are very different people) as their sister, who is motivated, polite, kind, very very hard working, at college, happy go lucky, loads of confidence, in fact everything her younger brothers aren't, the same parent, same upbringing, same household, same tears and laughter shared - i honestly do not believe it's all down to my parenting that my boys have been like they are, I believe alot of it has been and that my daughter is just the way she is because its the way she is, but she had to have got some of that from my parenting if we are to assume my boys got their ways due to my parenting
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i think a lot of parents and teachers (and this is not to say that everything is ALL their fault) make the error of assuming that 1 approach will work with all kids. It may depend on the differing temprament of the kid to see what works. I also think exhausted that gender can at times have something to do with it.
One thing I always remember hating at school was hearing about how perfect my sister had been. Unlike her i was not straight A head girl material but I never heard the end of it! My 3 brothers also went to the same fairly strict boys school. 2 did well and loved it 1 hated it and ended up getting expelled. My dad once said to me afterward thatr he prolly should have gone with a more relaxed school but at the time family tradition won. Nobody can get it right 100% of the time.
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What if the Llama is really smart?
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i think a lot of parents and teachers (and this is not to say that everything is ALL their fault) make the error of assuming that 1 approach will work with all kids.
Isn't the problem using a debunked, not only unproven, but DISproven, inhernatly dangerous "approach" in the first place?
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In terms of TBS yes but what About normal school? there are a lot of different options but most ppl go for the most conventional because it seemed to work for them. I would not say this makes them bad parents
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What if the Llama is really smart?
"Tina, you fat lard, come get some ham!"
Sorry, enough people quote Napoleon Dynamite as it is.
Otherwise, this is an interesting discussion, with a lot of interesting perspectives, but I as of yet don't know what to think of it all. Still processing. Will let you know when the hard drive stops spinning.
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i think a lot of parents and teachers (and this is not to say that everything is ALL their fault) make the error of assuming that 1 approach will work with all kids. It may depend on the differing temprament of the kid to see what works. I also think exhausted that gender can at times have something to do with it.
Which is why i said "yet the two I did bring up have been treated exactly the same way (bar the obvious individual needs they have simply because they are very different people) as their sister,"
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In terms of TBS yes but what About normal school? there are a lot of different options but most ppl go for the most conventional because it seemed to work for them. I would not say this makes them bad parents
Anyone who uses a debunked, not only unproven, but DISproven, inhernatly dangerous "approach" is negligent at the very least... or any entity.
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What if the Llama is really smart?
"Tina, you fat lard, come get some ham!"
Sorry, enough people quote Napoleon Dynamite as it is.
Otherwise, this is an interesting discussion, with a lot of interesting perspectives, but I as of yet don't know what to think of it all. Still processing. Will let you know when the hard drive stops spinning.
Are you drinking 1% because you think youre fat?
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I have to agree with truth searcher Guest - yes I have made the comment that Psy has quoted me on (and he asked me very politely for permission too) but that was a private conversation between us, the quote was part of a whole conversation that isn't to be confused with what is being suggested here.
As an exampe, in my own situation, I have 3 off the rails boys, one I didn't bring up, two I did, so they've had totally different upbringings, yet the two I did bring up have been treated exactly the same way (bar the obvious individual needs they have simply because they are very different people) as their sister, who is motivated, polite, kind, very very hard working, at college, happy go lucky, loads of confidence, in fact everything her younger brothers aren't, the same parent, same upbringing, same household, same tears and laughter shared - i honestly do not believe it's all down to my parenting that my boys have been like they are, I believe alot of it has been and that my daughter is just the way she is because its the way she is, but she had to have got some of that from my parenting if we are to assume my boys got their ways due to my parenting
That may have not been intended, but its what the sentence means. It is an accurate description of how kids get to program. I am not going to comment on your particular parenting flaws as that is not my place. But undoubtedly there are things you could do better and have serious failings. I could point failings out, tell you to accept resonsibiliy for creating your children & recognize that kids are not robots and take effort or I could tell u your kid is terribley ill, its not yur fault, and to abandon the kid immediately -go take that vacation youve been wanting. One approach is difficult and rough on the ego, the other makes one feel godlike and is easy. Which do you think is more attractive to the program parent?
The idea that one kid turning "bad" the other "good" implies there is quality parenting and one kid was just beneath it is ridiculous. There is a saying-"No child is raised in the same family".This reffers to how parents treat their children differently. Abuse& neglect is a matter of scapegoating. Rarely are all children scapegoated equally. it interferes with having one vulnerable "bad" symbol on whom lifes miseries may be dumpED.There are issues of timing too, maybe the parent got crazier when one kid was in a partiuclar life phase
The book "A child called it" descries a ca one child bein tortured and starved while his siblings led a normal life.You might have read about 4 boys being starved by their parents. They were 14=20? and weighted 45 lbs each, were stunted at 3-4 ft and their teeth had rotted out. The female children were fat and tall. The program-type parents, blamed their sons for their condition by accusing them of having an eating disorder.
Abuse is not usually so extreem, but treating children differntly & causing different life tragectory is common. One family I know personally abused the youngest daughter and spoiled the 2 others. I was around them often as our parents were freinds. The youngest was always told she was stupid and incompetant. I saw the older kids sexually abuse her. Her father stabbed her with a pencil. He had her write essays becasue, unlike his other girls, she was stupid. Anyway of course this girl had "problems"-that is to say she didnt acheive like the others did. Spent as much time away from her house as possible, in clubs, did not do well in school, was unhappy etc.
Porgram appeals to parents like these. Parents who either imagine their child isnt acheiving enough, or whom have created a household where acheivement is impossible. There is a heiarchy of needs and the lowest level is security and safety.If you lack those the higher pesuits- "achievemnt" becomes impossible.
Then these horrible parent shows up and says look heres the porblems with my kid, the program gives them the speil you decribed and off a kid goes to program
The parent is thusly releived of accountability for creating problems, over reacting to non existant "problems" which are coping skills for unbaleanced homes, and for having expectaions for a human child that are more befiting a young vegetable, and seeing failure to meet those unfair expectations as problems. They are relived of the effort of child care. And, the acomying gult/shame of abadnonment. Normally, if you leave a kid with someone else it's a form of parental failure.Not in program-you're a hero
Then the kid goes to hell. If they perish there-its THEIR fault, poor poor parent! They did so much for kid :cry2: .
Childs funeral 4:00 pm. Sunday send donations in leiu of flowers to program X
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I think parents are more vulnerable to this sort of thing today than they have been in past generations. When I was a kid, my parents were decidedly weird in the eyes of the neighbors for getting involved in the Seed. Even the cop across the street forbid his kids to play with me anymore once my mother went over there on a recruiting mission. Broke my heart. His daughter had been my best friend and I had a mad crush on her brother. But I understand their concern.
Now it's seen as sort of normal, even honorable to ship your kids off to rehab. 100 years ago, the authorities had to take kids from their parents at gunpoint just to enforce the new compulsory schooling laws. My, how things have changed!
Yes, of course, no doubt most of the culpability lies with the parents. They are, after all, the ones who request the service, sign the checks, go through with the exit plans. That's why all of the marketing is directed to them, not to the supposed benefactors.
But why are parents falling for this obvious bullshit? I think this is the bigger issue we're up against and we're not doing all that much good by continually focusing on our little piece of the puzzle out of context. We've come to a point as a society where we no longer have any strong community or family culture. I can see the difference clearly between So Fl and SW Pa. Moving here has been like stepping back in time in a lot of ways. Say all you want about the hillbillies and their backwoods ways, these people still have enough sense to oppose random piss testing in schools and simply ignore stupid dictates that conflict w/ their own self interest and common sense. Sure, they're delivering their lines and taking the handouts. But they're not laughing with us! They still give more weight to custom than to whatever bullshit proceedeth from the mouth of some stuffed shirt.
These people don't send their kids to programs!
But there is creeping encroachment. Walmarts going up followed by Westinghouse Planned Community style developments. A neighboring agency already has the Wackenhut colors and we've just started getting those nifty counterdrug task forces. I think that'll get cut short, though, the FIRST time somebody's grandmother dies in a hail of bullets when the Keystone Kops hit the wrong address w/ a SWAT raid. And she'll probably get off a few shots, too, and the remaining team members will be lucky to make it another two years--hunting accidents, bar room brawls, winter time car wrecks, misadjusted furnaces... They play rough and tumble here.
It may seem lawless and chaotic, but at the end of the day the actual violent and property crime rates here are something like 30% of any urban area I've ever lived in. It's not that absence of regulation = absence of order. More like there are two general choices; trust in edicts from on high and strangers on the tv or go with tradition.
This is not the only area in which parents are falling for counterfeit wisdom or in which people in general are. I've heard so many times of people who had no clue that anything was wrong with their kid till they sent them to school and the "experts" informed them of acute dysfunction and dire consequences (legal or otherwise) for failure to comply with their recommendations. People send letters spilling their private business and begging for advice from Dr. Phool, stepcraft pushing talk radio pop shrinks and Oprah Winfrey, then ignore their friends and family so make sure they don't miss the broadcast answer.
What do we do about that now?
I know.... art... and wait a generation. Damn it, I want it now!
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The idea that one kid turning "bad" the other "good" implies there is quality parenting and one kid was just beneath it is ridiculous. There is a saying-"No child is raised in the same family".This reffers to how parents treat their children differently. Abuse& neglect is a matter of scapegoating. Rarely are all children scapegoated equally. it interferes with having one vulnerable "bad" symbol on whom lifes miseries may be dumpED.There are issues of timing too, maybe the parent got crazier when one kid was in a partiuclar life phase
The book "A child called it" descries a ca one child bein tortured and starved while his siblings led a normal life.
I have read all 3 of the books yes, and the author was actually treated differently to his siblings ... he was the only one abused, as I said, my kids ahve all been treated the same bar the obvious different needs because they are different people.
I didn't say that a 'bad' kid was beneath it because there are good ones ?? I actually said that my daughter is probably the way she is just because she is that way - I also accept responsibility for how my boys are, which is why I spend so much effort getting our family back on track .. yes I could have taken the easy for me route and placed them in a program, but, i decided it was my job to deal with it.
However, if you are going to accept that a kid is the way he/she is because of the parenting, then you have to accept that the parent has some good parenting skils when he/she has kids who grow up to be perfectly well behaved, you can't just say "It's your fault as a parent" when kids go wrong in life and then say "It's not your good parenting" when kids get it right - don't be so down on the parents al the time, babies don't come with manuals, we do our best for our kids, we can't always get it right being that we are only human
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I think parents are more vulnerable to this sort of thing today than they have been in past generations...Now it's seen as sort of normal, even honorable to ship your kids off to rehab.
I agree completely. I just wish I knew why and how this change came about. I lay a lot of blame on the government for the idiotic "war on drugs," but that's only part of it. Somehow societal norms and expectations of young people have changed a lot from when I was a kid, and I guess I didn't realize just how much they had changed until my own kids became teens.
Behavioral expectations are much higher today -- kids are supposed to be 'perfect' and are severely punished when they're not. Long gone are the days when getting caught by the cops with some weed meant a phone call home and a lecture from mom & dad. Likewise for getting in a fight at school, or for skipping class. Do teens even have kegger parties anymore?
Academic expectations are a lot higher too. When I was in high school, it was perfectly ok to get mediocre grades if that was all you were capable of. It was ok to want to be an auto mechanic or a construction worker or whatever. It seems like most parents I know today are uptight about their kids getting maximum GPA, going to college right away, choosing the right career, etc. And the stuff kids learn today is way more advanced than what we got at the same age/grade.
The bar has been raised pretty high over the years, and yet we as a society not only expect perfection, but can be brutally punishing when some of our youth act out, rebel, blow off steam, or develop emotional problems. With the stress some of them must be feeling, what did we expect?
This is not the only area in which parents are falling for counterfeit wisdom or in which people in general are. I've heard so many times of people who had no clue that anything was wrong with their kid till they sent them to school and the "experts" informed them of acute dysfunction and dire consequences (legal or otherwise) for failure to comply with their recommendations. People send letters spilling their private business and begging for advice from Dr. Phool, stepcraft pushing talk radio pop shrinks and Oprah Winfrey, then ignore their friends and family so make sure they don't miss the broadcast answer.
What do we do about that now?
I know.... art... and wait a generation. Damn it, I want it now!
People today, even educated adults, seem to be trained to doubt themelves and their abilities. They look to 'experts' for wisdom, even when some of those 'experts' are mere actors on TV -- not just "doctor" Phool, but obvious actors in fictional serials. Medical dramas, for example, are the primary source of "information" about medical issues for many Americans. That's part of the reason the producers of shows like ER and Grey's Anatomy hire real doctors as consultants -- they want to make sure they don't spread any medical mis-information to the morons who are likely to take it as "real."
Art does make a difference. Not just art, but "the arts" -- including music, movies, TV shows, and popular internet content. The real solution is cultural change, and unfortunately that doesn't happen overnight.
But thanks to the internet, each individual know has the power to amplify his or her message, and we are all much bigger consumers of information than we were a decade ago. Hopefully the next cultural shift will happen more quickly and will move us in a more tolerant, enlightened direction.