Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 05:43:40 PM
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Our daughter has been out of her program going on almost two years now. And she is slowly - very slowly - beginning to share details of her stay there.
She was not as unfortunate as many. She was not systematically abused. She was never hit. Never denied meals or water. And so on ... but there are components of her story and experience that still make me very angry. Angry at me. Angry at the staff. Angry at the program. Angry at the whole industry. Sorry ... I digress.
She came crying to me one day and said that she had to "unload". I held my breath and tried to conceal the panic that I felt. She said that all of the "stuff" that she had told her therapist ... and consequently told us was mostly untruth. All those shocking confessions of 'deviant' behavior. Yes she did some drugs ... but not the extent that she told us while in her program. Yes, she was involved sexually ... but not as promiscuously as she told us while in her program. Yes she was running with a "tough" crowd ... but they weren't doing as much delinquent behavior as she had claimed while in her program.
My first thought was what I had read here in terms of being 'brainwashed' into confessing to all sorts of untrue stuff. That you were 'compelled' to confess in order to survive . Ya know ... "gotta work the program".
But as she dialogged about her motivations to tell these stories, she feels that she did it more to "fit in" with the rough/tough crowd that makes up the rosters in TBS's and EGBS's. Hmmm.
Poor kid.
The only thing she really struggled with was depression, cutting and suicidal ideations. And some normal teenage angst ... and the normal teenage autonomous behaviors.
So. It was an interesting conversation. I am blessed that she is sharing this with me now. I know that. It speaks about her resilience and tenacity. It speaks about her ability to forgive our horrible choice.
It makes me all the more determined to speak out against institutionalizing our kids.
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I wasn't logged in ... my bad ... but that was most post.
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Well... Thank you for listening to her. A lot of parents could learn from you. People make mistakes. I've forgiven my parents for the most part... They didn't know what they were sending me into.
A lot of survivors would probably disagree with me... I can understand why. In program I was told my parents didn't give a shit about me. I had nightmares that my own mother was coming to kill me...
That doesn't wear off easily.
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Your willingness to listen and apologize will go a long way in undoing what was done. And to build trust, which the program promises but doesn't deliver.
How old was she when she entered? It seems to be much harder for the younger ones, particularly the peer pressure.
There is research that discourages the aggregation of distressed kids, for one of the reasons you mentioned- adopting other habits/behaviors to 'fit in'.
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Which is why I am always saying not to bash the parents all the time, parents make bad choices sometimes, especially when they're trusting the experts to give them the right advice
These programs really need to be concentrated on not just for the abuse they dish out to the kids, but also to the unwitting parents, it changes everyone's relationship, jees
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These programs, are not "the experts". They are known as an alternative to traditional treatment.
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When I say experts, I am talking of the therapists that refer them in the first place - the ones who gain financially from it, I can understand why a parent would trust a person they have paid and who is qualified to do the best for their child's mental health, taken their advice - and the brochures make it all look oh so lovely dontcha think?
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Hi, new to this forum... are you a program survivor, exhausted?
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Hi, new to this forum... are you a program survivor, exhausted?
No, but I am. she is a parent who decided not to make a really big mistake. So she's a parent, but not a program parent.
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I'm an abused childhood survivor if that helps any - also a nearly ex program parent who did her research first (Thankyou fornits again)
And welcome to the most heated forum on the net lol :D
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When I say experts, I am talking of the therapists that refer them in the first place - the ones who gain financially from it, I can understand why a parent would trust a person they have paid and who is qualified to do the best for their child's mental health, taken their advice - and the brochures make it all look oh so lovely dontcha think?
I think most parents find out about these programs from program parent referrers, "Educational consultants", the internet, and Tv shows. It shows, in many cases, they purposely neglected contacting professionals and decided that they, as a parent, were apt enough to decide whether their child needed long term inpatient "care". "The professionals" don't lock a kid up for a year or two just because they smoke weed and steal cars. These private programs are more of a private juvenile justice system than a treatment system, because they aren't trying to rehabilitate. They are trying to punish and change behaviors they consider unsatisfactory. That is not how treatment works. Professionals do not send kids to go camping for 10 weeks for anorexia or bulimia. Professionals do not recommend sending a kid to Tranquility Bay for smoking pot and ditching school. The parents are seeking an option that should not exist, that being the unilateral right to lock their children in a private prison for no legitimate reason. It's precisely the lack of professionalism that leads to this. The entire industry is run by greedy businessmen, staff and program owners trained within the private program industry, and kids who go through it, and end up working for them or starting their own (you know since, they 'know how it all works' and all that :roll: )
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When I say experts, I am talking of the therapists that refer them in the first place - the ones who gain financially from it, I can understand why a parent would trust a person they have paid and who is qualified to do the best for their child's mental health, taken their advice - and the brochures make it all look oh so lovely dontcha think?
I think most parents find out about these programs from program parent referrers, "Educational consultants", the internet, and Tv shows. It shows, in many cases, they purposely neglected contacting professionals
You know how many kids I knew who'se psychologists recommended contacting educational consultants. That industry has a good PR department. It is not exactly widely known that the industry is completely unregulated. Parents assume that these are professionals since they have fancy titles.
and decided that they, as a parent, were apt enough to decide whether their child needed long term inpatient "care". "The professionals" don't lock a kid up for a year or two just because they smoke weed and steal cars. These private programs are more of a private juvenile justice system than a treatment system, because they aren't trying to rehabilitate. They are trying to punish and change behaviors they consider unsatisfactory. That is not how treatment works. Professionals do not send kids to go camping for 10 weeks for anorexia or bulimia. Professionals do not recommend sending a kid to Tranquility Bay for smoking pot and ditching school.
Well what about professionals like those at the Dept of State... who referred me to Benchmark and a shitload of others to WWASP, CEDU, and are currently referring to Aspen schools...
The bitch who referred me... Anne Weiss.. Was very very wise to retire as soon as my dad started to file complaints about her after Benchmark.. Becuase I wanted her fucking head on a spike. I would recommend anybody else who was referred by the DoS to take similar action.
The parents are seeking an option that should not exist, that being the unilateral right to lock their children in a private prison for no legitimate reason. It's precisely the lack of professionalism that leads to this. The entire industry is run by greedy businessmen, staff and program owners trained within the private program industry, and kids who go through it, and end up working for them or starting their own (you know since, they 'know how it all works' and all that :roll: )
Far too well. And i've seen the most abused of em say "if my kid ever needed it, i'd send em to Benchmark".... and i'm just blown over by that... Program kids becoming program parents. In some people, the brainwashing is permanant. Lifton noted it's not common, but it happens... Some people, even after being removed from the thought reform enviornment, never snap out at all. Of course it helps that this particular person still talks to her staff counselor on a frequent basis... These people, who the brainwashing lasts on, for whom program becomes home, are the "queen bees"... off to go start a new hive.
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These programs, are not "the experts". They are known as an alternative to traditional treatment.
Yes VERY poor choice of words there, thank you for pointing that out. It's this kind of crap that really makes me wonder where you're coming from, exhausted.
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Far too well. And i've seen the most abused of em say "if my kid ever needed it, i'd send em to Benchmark".... and i'm just blown over by that... Program kids becoming program parents. In some people, the brainwashing is permanant. Lifton noted it's not common, but it happens... Some people, even after being removed from the thought reform enviornment, never snap out at all. Of course it helps that this particular person still talks to her staff counselor on a frequent basis... These people, who the brainwashing lasts on, for whom program becomes home, are the "queen bees"... off to go start a new hive.
Yup. Out of five kids and two parents, I've got a brother and a mother like that.
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Far too well. And i've seen the most abused of em say "if my kid ever needed it, i'd send em to Benchmark".... and i'm just blown over by that... Program kids becoming program parents. In some people, the brainwashing is permanant. Lifton noted it's not common, but it happens... Some people, even after being removed from the thought reform enviornment, never snap out at all. Of course it helps that this particular person still talks to her staff counselor on a frequent basis... These people, who the brainwashing lasts on, for whom program becomes home, are the "queen bees"... off to go start a new hive.
Yup. Out of five kids and two parents, I've got a brother and a mother like that.
My feeling is it's down to time and pressure. The person in question was there for about 2.5 years... (12 months program my ass)
I was in for a year... I wonder what i'd be like if I was there for 2+ years.... Oh yeah.. and she was still a level 1 after all that time... Go figure. Not her fault though. They kept upgrading and downgrading her.... teaching a depressed girl the values of hard work... The shit they did to her was beyond sick... so far beyond sick...
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I think most parents find out about these programs from program parent referrers, "Educational consultants", the internet, and Tv shows. It shows, in many cases, they purposely neglected contacting professionals and decided that they, as a parent, were apt enough to decide whether their child needed long term inpatient "care"
Honestly, I had never heard of Educational Consultants, escort services or therapeutic boarding schools.
Our daughter's therapist (Ph.D psychologist specializing in 'personality disorders) made the suggestion of placement. The scope of my knowledge about boarding schools was knowing that rich families sometimes sent their kids off to "finishing school" or college preparatory schools.
So ... perhaps many parents do find their way to TBS's via other parents, educational consultants, the web and TV ... but I don't know if MOST go that route.
You must also understand that many of us had tried impatient care. It is woefully inadequate, not covered by insurance or not readily available. But, that's a whole other discussion.
Many of us are duped by "professionals". One must be extremely wary where one places trust. Hard lesson learned for us.
How old was she when she entered?
Deborah~ she was 15.
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Our daughter has been out of her program going on almost two years now. And she is slowly - very slowly - beginning to share details of her stay there.
She was not as unfortunate as many. She was not systematically abused. She was never hit. Never denied meals or water. And so on ... but there are components of her story and experience that still make me very angry. Angry at me. Angry at the staff. Angry at the program. Angry at the whole industry. Sorry ... I digress.
She came crying to me one day and said that she had to "unload". I held my breath and tried to conceal the panic that I felt. She said that all of the "stuff" that she had told her therapist ... and consequently told us was mostly untruth. All those shocking confessions of 'deviant' behavior. Yes she did some drugs ... but not the extent that she told us while in her program. Yes, she was involved sexually ... but not as promiscuously as she told us while in her program. Yes she was running with a "tough" crowd ... but they weren't doing as much delinquent behavior as she had claimed while in her program.
My first thought was what I had read here in terms of being 'brainwashed' into confessing to all sorts of untrue stuff. That you were 'compelled' to confess in order to survive . Ya know ... "gotta work the program".
But as she dialogged about her motivations to tell these stories, she feels that she did it more to "fit in" with the rough/tough crowd that makes up the rosters in TBS's and EGBS's. Hmmm.
Poor kid.
The only thing she really struggled with was depression, cutting and suicidal ideations. And some normal teenage angst ... and the normal teenage autonomous behaviors.
So. It was an interesting conversation. I am blessed that she is sharing this with me now. I know that. It speaks about her resilience and tenacity. It speaks about her ability to forgive our horrible choice.
It makes me all the more determined to speak out against institutionalizing our kids.
What program did she go to?
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Far too well. And i've seen the most abused of em say "if my kid ever needed it, i'd send em to Benchmark".... and i'm just blown over by that... Program kids becoming program parents. In some people, the brainwashing is permanant. Lifton noted it's not common, but it happens... Some people, even after being removed from the thought reform enviornment, never snap out at all. Of course it helps that this particular person still talks to her staff counselor on a frequent basis... These people, who the brainwashing lasts on, for whom program becomes home, are the "queen bees"... off to go start a new hive.
Yup. Out of five kids and two parents, I've got a brother and a mother like that.
My feeling is it's down to time and pressure. The person in question was there for about 2.5 years... (12 months program my ass)
I was in for a year... I wonder what i'd be like if I was there for 2+ years.... Oh yeah.. and she was still a level 1 after all that time... Go figure. Not her fault though. They kept upgrading and downgrading her.... teaching a depressed girl the values of hard work... The shit they did to her was beyond sick... so far beyond sick...
what did they do psy...and why did they pick on her more than the others, if they did
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They squirted her with piss-clams.
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Far too well. And i've seen the most abused of em say "if my kid ever needed it, i'd send em to Benchmark".... and i'm just blown over by that... Program kids becoming program parents. In some people, the brainwashing is permanant. Lifton noted it's not common, but it happens... Some people, even after being removed from the thought reform enviornment, never snap out at all. Of course it helps that this particular person still talks to her staff counselor on a frequent basis... These people, who the brainwashing lasts on, for whom program becomes home, are the "queen bees"... off to go start a new hive.
Yup. Out of five kids and two parents, I've got a brother and a mother like that.
My feeling is it's down to time and pressure. The person in question was there for about 2.5 years... (12 months program my ass)
I was in for a year... I wonder what i'd be like if I was there for 2+ years.... Oh yeah.. and she was still a level 1 after all that time... Go figure. Not her fault though. They kept upgrading and downgrading her.... teaching a depressed girl the values of hard work... The shit they did to her was beyond sick... so far beyond sick...
what did they do psy...and why did they pick on her more than the others, if they did
There were only so many people there with her particular issue at that time. What they did to her had to do with that issue. I can't really say without revealing her identity. If she decides to come out and speak about it some day, that's her decision. PM me and i'll give you some details.
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We are a culture of eloi... 30 plus years and I still can't talk to my mum. She is in complete denial.
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Our daughter has been out of her program going on almost two years now. And she is slowly - very slowly - beginning to share details of her stay there.
She was not as unfortunate as many. She was not systematically abused. She was never hit. Never denied meals or water. And so on ... but there are components of her story and experience that still make me very angry. Angry at me. Angry at the staff. Angry at the program. Angry at the whole industry. Sorry ... I digress.
She came crying to me one day and said that she had to "unload". I held my breath and tried to conceal the panic that I felt. She said that all of the "stuff" that she had told her therapist ... and consequently told us was mostly untruth. All those shocking confessions of 'deviant' behavior. Yes she did some drugs ... but not the extent that she told us while in her program. Yes, she was involved sexually ... but not as promiscuously as she told us while in her program. Yes she was running with a "tough" crowd ... but they weren't doing as much delinquent behavior as she had claimed while in her program.
My first thought was what I had read here in terms of being 'brainwashed' into confessing to all sorts of untrue stuff. That you were 'compelled' to confess in order to survive . Ya know ... "gotta work the program".
But as she dialogged about her motivations to tell these stories, she feels that she did it more to "fit in" with the rough/tough crowd that makes up the rosters in TBS's and EGBS's. Hmmm.
Poor kid.
The only thing she really struggled with was depression, cutting and suicidal ideations. And some normal teenage angst ... and the normal teenage autonomous behaviors.
So. It was an interesting conversation. I am blessed that she is sharing this with me now. I know that. It speaks about her resilience and tenacity. It speaks about her ability to forgive our horrible choice.
It makes me all the more determined to speak out against institutionalizing our kids.
To be brainwashed you dont necessariy beleive that you have done what you admit to- thats a higher level of brainwahing. The lower level of brainwashing is that you feel what you admit to has some essential truth even if not strictly true, you "learned" something at prgram, program taught you "not to act out", or made you more respectful -even if it did go to far etc.
I doubt she was admitting to counselors things "just to fit in" I suspect that is just how she explains it to you ,prehaps to herself. Fitting in, can mean bowing to that "positive peer culture", which is the same as being coerrced into self incrimination. You dont have a chioce not to confess if you want to leave or be safe
I have cettainly lied to impress freinds...but it didnt get written down in confessions and relayed by therepists to show my parent how sick I am and how much I need program and am getting better. Obviously there is something more pernicous at hand
I dont say this to be mean in any way , but you should realize that her dialogue with you is unlikely to be "honest" either. Unwittingly or not, you have put her in a deadly situation and kept her there. You also can send her back anytime you like.The program folk are not the only one she has stockholm syndrome with and whom she needs to empathize and please to survive. Its the sad subtext for the relationship now
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Our daughter has been out of her program going on almost two years now. And she is slowly - very slowly - beginning to share details of her stay there.
She was not as unfortunate as many. She was not systematically abused. She was never hit. Never denied meals or water. And so on ... but there are components of her story and experience that still make me very angry. Angry at me. Angry at the staff. Angry at the program. Angry at the whole industry. Sorry ... I digress.
She came crying to me one day and said that she had to "unload". I held my breath and tried to conceal the panic that I felt. She said that all of the "stuff" that she had told her therapist ... and consequently told us was mostly untruth. All those shocking confessions of 'deviant' behavior. Yes she did some drugs ... but not the extent that she told us while in her program. Yes, she was involved sexually ... but not as promiscuously as she told us while in her program. Yes she was running with a "tough" crowd ... but they weren't doing as much delinquent behavior as she had claimed while in her program.
My first thought was what I had read here in terms of being 'brainwashed' into confessing to all sorts of untrue stuff. That you were 'compelled' to confess in order to survive . Ya know ... "gotta work the program".
But as she dialogged about her motivations to tell these stories, she feels that she did it more to "fit in" with the rough/tough crowd that makes up the rosters in TBS's and EGBS's. Hmmm.
Poor kid.
The only thing she really struggled with was depression, cutting and suicidal ideations. And some normal teenage angst ... and the normal teenage autonomous behaviors.
So. It was an interesting conversation. I am blessed that she is sharing this with me now. I know that. It speaks about her resilience and tenacity. It speaks about her ability to forgive our horrible choice.
It makes me all the more determined to speak out against institutionalizing our kids.
To be brainwashed you dont necessariy beleive that you have done what you admit to- thats a higher level of brainwahing. The lower level of brainwashing is that you feel what you admit to has some essential truth even if not strictly true, you "learned" something at prgram, program taught you "not to act out", or made you more respectful -even if it did go to far etc.
I doubt she was admitting to counselors things "just to fit in" I suspect that is just how she explains it to you ,prehaps to herself. Fitting in, can mean bowing to that "positive peer culture", which is the same as being coerrced into self incrimination. You dont have a chioce not to confess if you want to leave or be safe
I have cettainly lied to impress freinds...but it didnt get written down in confessions and relayed by therepists to show my parent how sick I am and how much I need program and am getting better. Obviously there is something more pernicous at hand
I dont say this to be mean in any way , but you should realize that her dialogue with you is unlikely to be "honest" either. Unwittingly or not, you have put her in a deadly situation and kept her there. You also can send her back anytime you like.The program folk are not the only one she has stockholm syndrome with and whom she needs to empathize and please to survive. Its the sad subtext for the relationship now
Unfortunately, like it or not, there is going to be a level of fear there. I urge you to emphasize that you would never ever consider sending her back, and you never ever would have sent her if you knew what it was like.
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Honestly, I had never heard of Educational Consultants, escort services or therapeutic boarding schools.
Same here. When I got the call that they had my son and started laying out when we would have contact (rather, how little contact we'd have for 20 monts), I asked if they were a detention center? No. A psych facility? No, a TBS. What the hell's a TBS? They even provided a dx of ODD, based on his 'paying' father's complaints. I said something to the effect that they couldn't contact without a court order. Well..... indeed they did, and provided perjured testimony in order to keep him there.
So ... perhaps many parents do find their way to TBS's via other parents, educational consultants, the web and TV ... but I don't know if MOST go that route.
Ex's therapist refered to EC. As for HLA, their demographics sheet stated that 64% of their referals came from ECs.
You must also understand that many of us had tried impatient care. It is woefully inadequate, not covered by insurance or not readily available. But, that's a whole other discussion.
Ironic, huh? That insurance won't pay for inpatient, but will pay for TBSs that aren't regulated, evidence-based or have any research to support that they are effective. And, that parents can apply for 'educational loans' for TBSs, and particularly wilderness.
Many of us are duped by "professionals". One must be extremely wary where one places trust. Hard lesson learned for us.
That's very true. The EC my ex used didn't know anything about HLA. Or my son, for that matter!! Not kidding. Have you spoken to the therapist since her return? Probably be useful for him/her to hear from you.
How old was she when she entered?
Deborah~ she was 15.[/quote]
That's really young. My son turned 14 the day before he was enrolled at HLA. In the tape recordings of our conversations he sounds like a little boy, voice hadn't changed yet. He went through puberty in a gulag warehouse. I resent that they stole that time from me and my son, for their own greedy purposes.
And to add insult to injury, one of them is posting in the HLA forum that I lost custody of my son.
Do demented people flock to these places, or what? Sadistic bastards.
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Do demented people flock to these places, or what? Sadistic bastards.
I think so.. in addition to creating them.
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I dont say this to be mean in any way , but you should realize that her dialogue with you is unlikely to be "honest" either. Unwittingly or not, you have put her in a deadly situation and kept her there. You also can send her back anytime you like.The program folk are not the only one she has stockholm syndrome with and whom she needs to empathize and please to survive. Its the sad subtext for the relationship now
Thats a very good point.
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These programs, are not "the experts". They are known as an alternative to traditional treatment.
Yes VERY poor choice of words there, thank you for pointing that out. It's this kind of crap that really makes me wonder where you're coming from, exhausted.
Well if you'd read other posts made by me you'd know that I call these people the 'experts' as a form of sarcasm......a parent scared to death is going to believe what these people say is best for their child because they are supposedly qualified to deal with the best for your child, who would have thought that earning out of it would come before your child's welfare? When you're a very very frightened parent, you go to the person who specialises in that field, you trust them, you don't sit & think 'I wonder if he really cares about my kid or whether hes going to make a referral fee out of this'
If your child has broken a leg you take him to the hospital, do you ever question that sending him on to an expensive physical therapist after is going to gain him a referral fee? No, you go because the doctor is the 'expert' and that is what he says will make your child better ... that is where I am coming from.
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You also can send her back anytime you like
Are you freaking kidding me??
I regret our decision. I hate what we did to her. With the perspective of hindsight, I would never send her away again.
In addition, she's now a legal adult. She is sailing her own ship. And she's doing a find job I might add.
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Truth Searcher
I think that was meant as 'She sees a risk of being sent back as you have that option' not that you actualy would send her back, and therefore she would have that mistrust ... I don't think anyone knew her age, now we do we know it is not an option
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We are a culture of eloi... 30 plus years and I still can't talk to my mum. She is in complete denial.
That's what I mean when I say that we, our whole big unhappy dysfunctional global village, are being domesticated. We all got a potent dose of it early on. And the old heads among us have seen the long term effects. But don't think that makes us an exclusive group or that no one on the outside can understand. The Program is not a fringe anomaly. Its practices and ideology have become broadly accepted as hard fact based science. That's why I feel an obligation and self interest (who will change my diapers when I'm old and incontinent? Who will take care of my grandchildren when they're grown?) to keep carrying this torch and keep trying to bring about a broader, more colorful dialog and understanding of what we're all bitchin and gripin about.
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We are a culture of eloi... 30 plus years and I still can't talk to my mum.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eloi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eloi)
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We are a culture of eloi... 30 plus years and I still can't talk to my mum.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
The main difference from their earlier ruler-worker state is that while the Morlocks continue to support the world's infrastructure and serve the Eloi, the Eloi have undergone significant physical and mental deterioration. Having solved all problems which required strength, intelligence or virtue, they have slowly become dissolute, frail idiots. While one initially has the impression that the Eloi live a life of play and toil less abundance, it is revealed that the Morlocks are tending to the Eloi's needs for the same reason a farmer tends to cattle - because the Eloi compose most (if not all) of the Morlock diet and the Eloi are no longer capable of acting in any other role.
Great science fiction uses the medium as a means of illustrating certain concepts, tenets, philosophies, what have you, in an unfamiliar context, thereby freeing the reader from their own cultural bias... and enabling them to see the intended for what it really is. Just my highly subjective opinion, of course...
:lol:
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Here's some more, with Stephenson expanding H.G. Wells's orginal theme and applying it to current reliance on technology and corporate employment systems in contemporary culture...
In Neal Stephenson's essay on modern culture with respect to the development of Computer Operating Systems, "In the Beginning was the Command Line", he demonstrates similarities between the future in The Time Machine and contemporary American culture. He claims that most Americans have been exposed to a "corporate monoculture" which renders them "unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands." Those who are willing to remain outside of this "culture" are capable of obtaining powerful tools to deal with the world, and it is they, rather than the neutered Eloi, that run things. The assumption seems to be that the Eloi will manage to fill their heads with garbage one way or the other, so our culture exists to ensure that it is harmless garbage rather than the dangerous types that lead to disruptions, violence, wars and inquisitions.
To quote Stephenson directly:
"But in our world it's the other way round. The Morlocks are in the minority, and they are running the show, because they understand how everything works. The much more numerous Eloi learn everything they know from being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled by book-reading Morlocks. So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands."
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being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled ... So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) . neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands
Now I hear you. Thanks.
It is so true that we (as a cultural whole) have increasing difficulty in thinking for ourselves. Standing by our own convictions ... and being firm in our values.
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"...if I only had a brain!" -- Scarecrow
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being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled ... So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) . neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands
Now I hear you. Thanks.
It is so true that we (as a cultural whole) have increasing difficulty in thinking for ourselves. Standing by our own convictions ... and being firm in our values.
Quite - if you go against thegrain and stand up for what you believe is right, society thinks you're not normal
If you're a kid and do this, you end up in a program :roll:
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being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled ... So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) . neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands
Now I hear you. Thanks.
It is so true that we (as a cultural whole) have increasing difficulty in thinking for ourselves. Standing by our own convictions ... and being firm in our values.
Quite - if you go against thegrain and stand up for what you believe is right, society thinks you're not normal
If you're a kid and do this, you end up in a program :roll:
That was exactly the reason why I was institutionalized. The fact that I was a social activist (with Food not Bombs, the revolutionary knitting circle and other non-violent protest groups), civically involved (on the Mayor's Civic advisory council), vegan, and worked for a human rights lawyer were all proof of my "druggie" habits. Even volunteering and being on the debate club were "druggie". Didn't even matter that I'd only very lightly experimented w/ drugs, being socially aware and trying to make change in this world were so anti-social, I must need serious help.
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being steeped from birth in electronic media directed and controlled ... So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost unbelievably infectious and (b) . neuters every person who gets infected by it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking stands
Now I hear you. Thanks.
It is so true that we (as a cultural whole) have increasing difficulty in thinking for ourselves. Standing by our own convictions ... and being firm in our values.
Quite - if you go against thegrain and stand up for what you believe is right, society thinks you're not normal
If you're a kid and do this, you end up in a program :roll:
That was exactly the reason why I was institutionalized. The fact that I was a social activist (with Food not Bombs, the revolutionary knitting circle and other non-violent protest groups), civically involved (on the Mayor's Civic advisory council), vegan, and worked for a human rights lawyer were all proof of my "druggie" habits. Even volunteering and being on the debate club were "druggie". Didn't even matter that I'd only very lightly experimented w/ drugs, being socially aware and trying to make change in this world were so anti-social, I must need serious help.
Well my activism was one of the contributing factors. My parents were worried since i was casually involved with the socialist workers party (protesting for immigration rights, protesting G8 stuff, protesting police brutality at G8 protests, puting up posters of Dubya crossed with a monkey... etc) It was hardly "the reason" but it did put them at unease. The "goth kids" i was friends with at the time also scared the hell out of them... Mainly though, it was just simply being bi that did it.
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from the movie - over the g w
and really, parents actually PAY for this
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I hear kids say a lot that a contributing factor to being sent to programs is the youth subculture that they are into at the time whether it is goth, punk or those boys who like rap and ridiculously big pants . Another big thing seems to be older kids who like some kind of mildly subersive political movement. While I understnad that in many cases it is in conjunction wtih drug taking etc I dont understand why such a mundane thing is such a cause for concern. Particularly in America. Afterall it was the US which invented rock and roll and Jazz. They were the counterculture elements of the day. What is it about this fairly standard behaviour which inspires such fear and dread in some parents? it is pretty universal for kids to find some kind of subculture which appeals to them and which their parents find absurd.
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Ever and always, in waves of increase and decrease, there appear to be trends of controlling people the world over...
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You also can send her back anytime you like
Are you freaking kidding me??
I regret our decision. I hate what we did to her. With the perspective of hindsight, I would never send her away again.
In addition, she's now a legal adult. She is sailing her own ship. And she's doing a find job I might add.
That’s 2 years she lived with you post program in that position with the corresponding Stockholm/other issues/ “mindset” & it doesn’t go away just because you’re over 18. I’m now over 18 but I still have a "mindset" with my parents. You can’t “think” one way for a good portion of your formative years and have “thinking” and communication styles erased by a birthday.
As you can see by how she’s only telling you these things NOW 2 years later in tears...SOMETHING was affecting her communication with you. And that SOMETHING though receding, is still extant, and a lot deeper than u consider
As for her program not being systematically abusive you only need to read a little in to what you know , even of the little you’ve said here, to know better.
First of all, if the program was so systematically unethical in their dealings with you wouldnt they be systematically unethical to your daughter over whom they have total control? These things follow a pattern
Secondly, was she kidnapped? That’s abuse. Was she than held involuntarily? That’s a CRIME referred to as involuntary confinement if the human in question is any other than a “troubled youth” whom can passed about like a football. So prima ficie she has suffered systematic abuse
Imprisonment without rights protecting the imprisoned is systematic abuse. Hardened adult criminals have belts taken from them automatically as prison is accepted as so horrible it will drive a sane man to suicide. Its even worse when you are not protected by a highly specified set of rights which prevent you from disappearing into an abyss of absolute power. Its even worse when this violation is perpetrated not just by a acceptably dangerous govt because of political reasons, but by ones’ own parents in conjunction with a supposedly ethical govt because one is so bad,/subhuman/insane that one is unworthy of a natural life or human rights.
Here is Dr describing the pshological implications of not having these inborn human rights violated
Further, Im sure communication was limited, phones monitored, negative assessment of program punished, That is systematic abuse
Further, those confessions she was forced to make are systematic abuse. Would you like to be forced to admit all you intimate “sins”( yes in the context of program they are sins/examples of insanity) to your daughter? Every drug you’ve taken, every petty misdeed, or simple quirk..and each sexual act. Forcing “enemies” to make public confessions activity is the MO of totalitarian thought reform facilities.
The purpose of those confessions is to break down your child’s identity and rebuild a self concept of deviant. Forcing her to admit her repugnantcies to you was so that in her mind her primary relationship knew her deviance.In confessing she lowers herself,accepts your authority to judg,e recoil, forgive at your leisure. You’re the master. Newly humbled, newly repugnant, newly penitent in a way only one can be made by ones own mother, she becomes more confused about reality, more certain that she is terrible, and more accepting that she is not entitled to respect, decency, etc like non deviants.
Forcing anyone to make public declarations of sex activity- outside of a crime report basis is sexual abuse. And forcing a girl to make this to her mother & father is INCESTUAL sexual abuse You were essentially manipulated into sexually abusing your own daughter in the same way that if she was forced to pull down her pants and point to her bad vagina you would be sexually abusing her
The complicated effects on the brain of a young woman whom endures this are unknown, as such information could only be gleaned by conducting experiments on unwilling children and real doctors in real intuitions will not do that
How long was she there?. Depending on how long I think its impossible she doesn’t have some heavy duty issues –brainwashing other issues going on. The pretend drs of program promote the idea that one has “behavioral disorders”-what is important is the behavior, in reality what is important is the psyche spirit of the individual, and even if a young person is behaving the important part of them can still be very very damaged in complicated and in saturated ways. I’m not saying any of this to hurt you the important thing is you pulled her…but if you really think about it….
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Wow sick of torture ~ you make some very interesting arguments. I'm not sure where to start.
In regard to her being 18, I simply meant that she is in control of her own destiny. I'm quite certain she does not see being sent back to the ranch as a remote possibility.
You make interesting points in regard to defining abuse. She was not "kidnapped" if you mean using escorts. We took her ourselves. I suppose that she was held involuntarily initially. But, within a few days, she was actually glad that she was there. She hated her public high school. We tried homeschooling and she hated the social isolation. So, for her, the private school part was good.
I'm not sure that I agree with the notion that "being held involuntarily" equates abuse. She was held involuntarily in mental health facilities too ... but is that abuse? Or was it in her best interest to help her through a period of time when she was considering suicide? Personally, I think the latter.
I would argue that my daughter never lost her "rights". Adequate food, water, reasonable shelter (I have a serious problem with wilderness programs definition of shelter), decent clothing, the right to speak and be heard, the right to some level of self determination (age and maturity dependent), to love and be loved, etc. are tangible rights. That is not to be confused with "privileges". I am fine with revoking privileges for a period of time ... I am fine with "earning" privileges. I do not think it abusive to suspend certain priveldges ... and allow the opportunity to earn them back.
Communication was limited. I agree with you on this one.
The confessions were not "forced". This facility did not engage in the LGAT type tactics that many programs use. Her confessions were made one on one with her therapist. She made them on her own accord. She takes ownership of the lies. However, I recongnize the fact that the environment that she was existing in encouraged conformance. I'm still thinking through this point.
She was in program about 16 months... give or take for trips home, our trips out there, etc.
I have no doubt that this experience had a profound impact on her. And I have no doubt that this will rear its ugly head throughout her lifetime. And I'm not sure where I stand with the whole psychiatric approach to human behavior. I think it was Deborah who had posted something about "learned helplessness". And I have been thinking alot about that concept.
I appreciate your wisdom and your gentleness in sharing it. I never sensed that you were sharing it "to hurt" me. That is why I come here ... because I really do want to understand.
Thanks.
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I'm sure you've posted this elsewhere, but what program was your daughter in exactly?
Rachael
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bump
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Our daughter has been out of her program going on almost two years now. And she is slowly - very slowly - beginning to share details of her stay there.
She was not as unfortunate as many. She was not systematically abused. She was never hit. Never denied meals or water. And so on ... but there are components of her story and experience that still make me very angry. Angry at me. Angry at the staff. Angry at the program. Angry at the whole industry. Sorry ... I digress.
She came crying to me one day and said that she had to "unload". I held my breath and tried to conceal the panic that I felt. She said that all of the "stuff" that she had told her therapist ... and consequently told us was mostly untruth. All those shocking confessions of 'deviant' behavior. Yes she did some drugs ... but not the extent that she told us while in her program. Yes, she was involved sexually ... but not as promiscuously as she told us while in her program. Yes she was running with a "tough" crowd ... but they weren't doing as much delinquent behavior as she had claimed while in her program.
My first thought was what I had read here in terms of being 'brainwashed' into confessing to all sorts of untrue stuff. That you were 'compelled' to confess in order to survive . Ya know ... "gotta work the program".
But as she dialogged about her motivations to tell these stories, she feels that she did it more to "fit in" with the rough/tough crowd that makes up the rosters in TBS's and EGBS's. Hmmm.
Poor kid.
The only thing she really struggled with was depression, cutting and suicidal ideations. And some normal teenage angst ... and the normal teenage autonomous behaviors.
So. It was an interesting conversation. I am blessed that she is sharing this with me now. I know that. It speaks about her resilience and tenacity. It speaks about her ability to forgive our horrible choice.
It makes me all the more determined to speak out against institutionalizing our kids.
Hi there! Bump.