Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2007, 07:22:37 PM
Does anyone disagree?
This is not to say that I don't believe in God (because I do), but I don't entertain the notion that God (the life force or whatever) really cares that much if I go out and kill someone. In fact I think he (sorry for the gender bias) might get a kick out of it. I know I would.
Thoughts?
Post by: Oestre on April 17, 2007, 08:15:54 PM
Anyway, I'm not supposed to tell people these things, but I like ya'. I really do. You're absolutely right, they all three have a laugh riot whenever you people start killing each other, especially when you're killing each other over who is friends with which invisible friend. They're ass holes anyway, and worse if you wind up working for them. I know! My little sister went to work for them. They told her she'd be mother of the church, right? It sounded like a great position. After all, the whole church? That'd be millions upon millions of people, she'd never have to stop fucking ever. Fuckin' assholes!
They'll not only laugh hard, but they'll probably offer you a job as an angel. Now you're probably thinking Revelation is coming up and you'll get to take part in all kinds of fun and exciting devastation. Don't kid yourself. They always save all the fun for themselves. You'll probably just get a walk on part getting ass raped like the two fellows they hired to 'go feel out Sodom for us, maybe we'll let you nuke the next one.' Worse? The poor bastards found out later that half a dozen of the rapists were Jebus and his invisible frat boy friends.
Don't you fall for it, kid. If you really want to just kill people who piss you off, hit up Najara. I hear she's hiring.
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2007, 11:21:32 PM
Post by: Oz girl on April 18, 2007, 07:42:01 AM
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2007, 08:39:25 AM
This is not to say that I don't believe in God (because I do), but I don't entertain the notion that God (the life force or whatever) really cares that much if I go out and kill someone.
In case it wasn't clear, there was no intention to debate the existence of God, but to debate its nature.
Post by: Antigen on April 18, 2007, 03:13:04 PM
For that there's God, by any name, just the same. In a sense, God is as real as anything. I mean, there is some force through which all things consist and it's ordered, not random. These forces do not care, not in a sentimental, personal love sort of way, whether you or I live or die or kill or what for. But they do "care" in that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So everything matters.
I think people create gods to mollify their fear of the unknown and uncontrollable as much as to make some sense of things and try and inform and direct ourselves to good action.
 |
Post by: BuzzKill on April 18, 2007, 05:05:33 PM
You have the Destroyer, the father of Lies, confused with Your Creator and Redeemer. A common mistake.
There is an all powerful Creator, who cares very much about you and every other living soul. He cares very much if you kill someone; and ultimately, He is the one you will have to face and be accountable to. You might "get away with it" as far as the world is concerned; but you would ultimately stand before the Almighty Creator and have to answer for it. I should say rather, that you will stand before the Almighty Creator and have to answer for yourself, for all have sinned. If you have not accepted the grace and salvation offered you, by Jesus suffering for you, then you will stand in your sin and be found guilty. See Isaiah 53; the 22ed psalm; Luke 12, and John 3, if you want to understand this a bit better. If you want to understand it a lot better, there is much more to read.
As for this idea you have of God being some kind of impersonal star wars type energy force - that is just another of the great liars lies. There is a powerful force who was once the highest of the arch Angels, who aspired to be like God, and was cast out for his pride. He hates you. He wants you destroyed. He will use what ever works to keep a person groping in the dark. And too, he no doubt delights when the darkness is so deep one actually thinks there is no accountability for evil. Others he must snare by pretending to a form of goodness; but I feel confident he takes greatest pleasure in those he can provoke to evil while pretending to be God. However, he is not God. He can imitate, but not create. He can destroy, but not save. And he too, will be held accountable, and there will be an end to his destruction. See Isaiah 14 vs. 12-17; Matthew 24; John 8, and Revelation 20 vs. 10 -15.
For what is, IMO, an inspired account of the nature of evil and temptation, read CS Lewis': The Screwtape Letters.
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2007, 05:36:59 PM
Quote from: ""Antigen's Ghost""
For that there's God, by any name, just the same. In a sense, God is as real as anything. I mean, there is some force through which all things consist and it's ordered, not random. These forces do not care, not in a sentimental, personal love sort of way, whether you or I live or die or kill or what for. But they do "care" in that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So everything matters.
This talk smacks of karma, and that's the thing -- I'm not sure if I believe in it. I think I don't. Oh sure, every action has its reaction (or consequence) no matter how trivial or crucial, but whether or not this reaction would mean fuck-all to ME or affect MY LIFE in any way is what I'm grappling with here....
Let's say I decide to put a bullet through someone's head because I don't like them or because of something they did to me. Who's to say I'm going to hell for this, or that it will "come back on me" in some way (other than possibly getting pinched for it)?
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2007, 05:41:14 PM
Post by: BuzzKill on April 18, 2007, 07:55:41 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
BuzzKill: "Religion is the opium of the masses" -Karl Marx
Religion may be; but God isn't.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
- Galileo Galilei
Small amounts of philosophy lead to atheism, but larger amounts bring us back to God.
Francis Bacon
Post by: Nihilanthic on April 18, 2007, 10:29:02 PM
:lol: BOTTOMS UP!
Post by: Antigen on April 18, 2007, 11:41:48 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Let's say I decide to put a bullet through someone's head because I don't like them or because of something they did to me. Who's to say I'm going to hell for this, or that it will "come back on me" in some way (other than possibly getting pinched for it)?
Well, it might come back on you or it might not. His orphan might grow up to date your daughter or there might be no connection ever. But it would effect things for sure. Everyone connected to the guy and the neighborhood would thenceforth live in a world where that kind of disregard is more real than some others. The odds of some of that getting on you are pretty high.
Same for doing good deeds. The trouble w/ trying to abide by it asi f it were a plan is that ya never know how things will turn out. Say some pompous ass walks into the room and starts insulting my character and intelligence. My gut instinct on site was that he was a dangerous snake and I should kill him. Had I done that, the world would never have noticed Virgil Miller Newton, and so there would be no defense for me but temporary insanity.
So maybe life is but a dream after all. If so, I still think the dogs have got something on us. They're all about living in the moment, enjoying everything and taking care of their pack.
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2007, 11:58:56 PM
Post by: Oz girl on April 19, 2007, 09:13:34 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
BuzzKill: "Religion is the opium of the masses" -Karl Marx
i always find it amusing when people quote marx on this topic. Afterall as a liberal leftist and an athiest (abiet a culturally catholic one) I would say the least attractive thing to me about pure communism is its humourless totalitarian attitude. That and the ugly clothes.
Afterall the bonhoffers and Sr Helen Prejeans are hardly thoughtless robots who are high on jesus. neither was Dante.
But in answer to the orignal person i dont think if there were a god they would be interventionist. One of the stangest things I have always found about the christian idea of god is that he was a kind of petty and spiteful egotist. look at poor Job. Also the idea that you can be a total bastard all through out your life then repent on your death bed and go to heaven seems laughable and reflects a god who is arrogant and egotistical. it also has thousands of Christians needlessly worrying for the souls of friends and loved ones who dont believe.
I also cant put much stock in this vague sort of idea of an energy force which brings about some sort or Karma.
Wouldnt it make more sense to believe in a god who just treats the afterlife like an undergraduate housewarming party. Anyone can come except the truly evil. Athiest muslims etc are greeted with a smug "well i bet you feel stupid" and all is forgotten after a beer. If I were to construct a human like deity this would be the guy.
Post by: Antigen on April 19, 2007, 10:06:03 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
And sniffing butts without apprehension or shame.
Oh, the dogs? Yeah.
Post by: BuzzKill on April 19, 2007, 12:56:27 PM
Really? How so? Seems to me this reflects a God who very much wants all in Heaven who want to be there. A God willing to take this man's many transgressions upon Himself, so the man can be allowed into Heaven, without guilt or stain; forgiven and healed. Would you rather have had Jesus say to the thief who asked to be remembered, that it was just to damned late, and he was damned; instead of what He promised, that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day?
As for dogs, one can learn a lot about the virtues of faithfulness, loyalty, bravery, self sacrifice, tenacity, humor and whit, by observing a good dog live its life. But its worth remembering that one dog will attack another over a bone, or a place to pee; and that a dog pack will almost certainly attack and kill any weak loaner it runs across for the fun of it. They are dogs and don't know this is in any way objectionable behavior.
We, being human, know better.
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 01:10:00 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
BuzzKill: "Religion is the opium of the masses" -Karl Marx
"Opiates are the Mass of my Religion"---RTP2k3
Post by: Oz girl on April 19, 2007, 03:40:20 PM
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""
Really? How so? Seems to me this reflects a God who very much wants all in Heaven who want to be there. A God willing to take this man's many transgressions upon Himself, so the man can be allowed into Heaven, without guilt or stain; forgiven and healed. Would you rather have had Jesus say to the thief who asked to be remembered, that it was just to damned late, and he was damned; instead of what He promised, that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day?
It would depend i suppose on what someone had done. A truly evil person. i thini this is why people have invented the concept of hell. it actually brings comfort if you think in judaic christian terms to think that truly horrid people have some kind of divine retribution and lets face it one of the reasons why people invented religious faith was to bring comfort,
The reason why i think the idea reflects an arrogant deity is because it makes no compassionate sense to send someone to hell for being a non believer. Particularly if this person is a non believer because they have never heard of you. it seems to be more reflective of a certain childish need for validation.
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 04:55:52 PM
I also think Jesus Freaks who think they are saved also excuse it when they turn a blind eye or commit wrongdoing. They think taking Jesus in their hearts expiates all their sins and thus, have no impetus to atone (in a practical way) or do good. I see this ALL the time!
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 04:56:45 PM
I also think Jesus Freaks who think they are saved also excuse it when they turn a blind eye or commit wrongdoing. They think taking Jesus in their hearts expiates all their sins and thus, have no impetus to atone (in a practical way) or do good. I see this ALL the time!
Post by: BuzzKill on April 19, 2007, 05:11:18 PM
Post by: Fr. Cassian on April 19, 2007, 06:30:28 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 06:32:36 PM
If you are a good person of integrity, who strives to live generously, compassionately, and honestly, and God sends you packing for not worshipping him, then I don't really think he is a God worth serving. I try my damnest to serve GOOD. When I think of the most ethical people I know, atheists and agnostics come to mind. They don't act upright because of external guidelines--they are INTERNALLY driven to do the right thing.
And it's not about petty bullshit like keeping your panties on.
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 06:46:38 PM
Post by: BuzzKill on April 19, 2007, 06:52:15 PM
Quote from: ""Born to Kill (the OP)""
Sorry, I've made up my mind to kill him despite the posts on this thread. I do appreciate the input though. It's just that this is too good to pass up; I really, really hate this fucker and I want him dead! So now it's just a matter of a chainsaw and some garbage bags.. I can't wait! ::hehehmm:: :flame: :skull:
Ah well, maybe you'll fall and break your leg on the way to the hardware store.
Post by: BuzzKill on April 19, 2007, 07:05:35 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Is God so egocentric that he would strike down those who don't believe him because the book is full of fallacies/contradictions/ and his follwers as well?
If you are a good person of integrity, who strives to live generously, compassionately, and honestly, and God sends you packing for not worshipping him, then I don't really think he is a God worth serving. I try my damnest to serve GOOD. When I think of the most ethical people I know, atheists and agnostics come to mind. They don't act upright because of external guidelines--they are INTERNALLY driven to do the right thing.
And it's not about petty bullshit like keeping your panties on.
Well the thing is, If there is a God (and I believe there is) then He is God. He does not answer to you, because He is God. What He says is right, is right, because He is God. What He says is evil is evil - again, because He is God.
If there is a God (and I believe there is abundant evidence that there is ) then He is the Almighty Creator, and so, what He says is , is.
He went to a good deal of trouble to introduce Himself to fallen man; to make His will known so we could live lives according to His divine plan. It seems wisest to me to try to live according to this plan. I understand many disagree - and He has given you that choice.
To lighten thing up a bit :
Letters to God written by children
Dear God, Did you mean the giraffe to look like that or was it a mistake?
Dear God, Instead of letting people die and having to make new ones, why don't you just keep the ones you have now?
Dear God, Who drew the lines around the countries?
Dear God, Thanks for my baby brother, but what I prayed for was a puppy.
Dear God, It rained during our whole holiday and my father was so mad he said some things about you that he shouldn’t have. Please don’t hurt him.
Dear God, Please send me a pony. I never asked for anything before. You can look it up.
Dear God, If we come back as something, please don't let me be Jennifer Levy, because I hate her.
Dear God, I want to be just like my daddy when I get big, but not with so much hair all over.
Dear God, I bet it is very hard for you to love all the people in the world. There are only four people in our family and I can never do it.
Dear God, Of all the people who worked for you, I like Noah and David the best.
Dear God, I read Thomas Edison made light. But in Hebrew school, I learned that you did it. I bet he stole your idea.
Dear God, I don't think anybody could be a better God. Well, I just want you to know that I am not just saying this because you are God already.
Dear God, Maybe Cain and Abel would not kill each other so much if they had their own rooms. It works with my brother.
Post by: Antigen on April 19, 2007, 07:19:58 PM
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""
Ah well, maybe you'll fall and break your leg on the way to the hardware store.store.
How very unchristian of you
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 07:41:44 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 07:43:12 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 07:57:28 PM
And Antigen, you say his broken leg comment was UnChristian? Actually, I think it is quite representative of Christians.
Post by: Oz girl on April 19, 2007, 08:21:42 PM
The letters were cute
But this is the other problem with the idea of a heavenly deity setting out the rules. The only way humans can know such rules is through the bible. In the event that you literally take the bible ( and i am aware that not all religious believers do) as a sort of rule book for running your life then you are not necessarily living in the most rational way. Afterall there are many bits that contridict themselves wildly and like any literary document it is open to human interpretation. The rules are also if literally followed unreasonably long and sometimes make no logical sense. Only a somewhat fanatical person would even be aware of them all. I dont understand why anyone would be keen to use such a guide for living.
Post by: BuzzKill on April 19, 2007, 09:01:53 PM
Quote from: ""Antigen's Ghost""
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""Ah well, maybe you'll fall and break your leg on the way to the hardware store.store.
How very unchristian of you
Well - maybe I stumbled ;) but I meant it kindly - to save them from committing an act that would destroy (at least) one life, most probably seriously damage (at least) another.
Oz girl - the rules are really sorta simple. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul; and do unto others, as you would have others do unto you.
Do these things, and all the rest falls naturally into place.
I believe you are probably thinking of "the Law" as laid out in Leviticus. If one believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and accepts what He said, the law was given largely to help men understand there was no way they could ever be good by following "rules". All men will fail. Thus the need for a Savior.
As for sin, IMO, what God tells us is sin, is sin because it is dangerous to our health and wellbeing; and or hurtful towards others. Tho we are bound to fail on occasion, it is to our advantage to avoid sin as much as possible.
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 09:05:52 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 11:02:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1dxtto2-WY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1dxtto2-WY)
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2007, 11:07:23 PM
Post by: Antigen on April 19, 2007, 11:54:24 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
And Antigen, you say his broken leg comment was UnChristian? Actually, I think it is quite representative of Christians.
I know. Just ribbin Karen a little.
Post by: Oz girl on April 20, 2007, 02:22:39 AM
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""
Oz girl - the rules are really sorta simple. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul; and do unto others, as you would have others do unto you.
.
While the do unto others part is common to most religions, how is it possible to love a faceless nameless sort of idea more than anything practical and earthly? You can love a person because you are involved in their life and they touch you in a human way. But a god is just a random idea that you cant see or touch. i can actually identify with the kid who asks for a pony. Afterall at least parents can provide their child with some real evidence that Santa has been (he drinks the beer or eats the cookies at least)
Post by: try another castle on April 20, 2007, 06:03:37 AM
God doesn't do people's laundry.
Post by: Carmel on April 20, 2007, 11:00:35 AM
Does god give a fuck? I dont know...does he take a piss? Probably not, but that doesnt mean that "god" doesnt exist. People manifest the greatest arrogance in humanizing "god". As if something so omnipotent would think like we do, and therefore pass judgement like we do.
My view of the world is wholly different from anyone elses...how does one characterize "god" with such a limited perspective?
I think the truth of "god" is more akin to the idea of enlightenment on a personal level. When a person is open enough to see the truth of their existence...thats real faith, real acceptance. I think that religion is just a mask for fear of the unknown. The bible is supposed to be "gods" word...but is it? Is it really? I dont hink so, I think its mans word used as a tool to show the idea of mans view of god from a human point of view, not a divine one. I choose to trust my own heart and my own faith before I turn to a poorly translated documentation of salvation.
Post by: Antigen on April 20, 2007, 11:22:58 AM
Quote from: "Oz girl"
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""Afterall at least parents can provide their child with some real evidence that Santa has been (he drinks the beer or eats the cookies at least)
You guys leave beer for Santa? We've just been leaving him milk. I suppose, being in the G -5 timezone, we should really be leaving him coffee or a nice line of coke or something.
Post by: Oz girl on April 20, 2007, 11:31:39 AM
Post by: nimdA on April 20, 2007, 12:18:24 PM
Post by: Antigen on April 20, 2007, 01:13:12 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 26, 2012, 09:33:54 PM
Quote from: ""Born to Kill""
Most people seem to believe that there is some sort of divine retribution (through hell, or through 'karma' for you new-agey types) for horrible acts like murder or what have you... I've been thinking to myself what a load of crap this is. If I decide to go out and kill someone because they piss me off or something, the only real thing I have to fear is getting caught for it....
Does anyone disagree?
This is not to say that I don't believe in God (because I do), but I don't entertain the notion that God (the life force or whatever) really cares that much if I go out and kill someone. In fact I think he (sorry for the gender bias) might get a kick out of it. I know I would.
Thoughts?
Hello, sometimes I think about the same thing. Sometimes I hate people and want them dead. Being angry hurts. I don't think it's wrong. But then I read something about people being nice and helping and giving things to kids. There's a lot of meanness and a lot of unpunished crimes, but it's a nicer feeling inside to put attention on say kids who need help, it's putting your mental energy on something better. It's hard to have a satisfactory conversation about "God" and "Karma" with anyone these days. I don't think it works how most people think it does. Of course if you walk around thinking bad things and plotting to kill people and stuff you are not going to attract the nicest situations to yourself, and that's not an esoteric idea, it's just the look on your face or whatever. That's just a simple idea about something some people call "karma". I think some of the ideas about "karma" are just as illogical as the way people think of "God" and "judgement". I mean, say someone does something bad to you and then someone says "well that must be your karma". But now the person that did something bad to you has some "bad karma" and supposedly they are going to get kicked in the ass at some point for the bad thing they did and deserve whatever bad thing that happens to them as "their karma coming back on them". Ugh I hate that line of reasoning. Plus the people who get victimized are often children, women, people without money and resources, handicapped. It becomes absurd the way people talk about cause and effect. It's not their place to suffer "karma", it's the world's place to fix some things. I don't have a lot of patience with "God" because there are too many children in ungodly awful situations in the world. I don't think that is their "karma" they got "reincarnated" to suffer. Probably most often I can appreciate what I have heard in church and from philosophical religious writings that humans are "co-creators" with "God". That is the truest thing I can see on this planet. People create a lot of bad stuff. It sounds like a sort of obnoxious hippy-ish idea that people should "raise their consciousness", but if people cause or turn away from suffering they let it happen, and they let the world be more like that whereas if by example they care about a thing and save kids from abusive programs they strengthen those kids who can grow up and do more good things with their lives and spread good things and good feelings around. Like pick up your litter and the place looks nicer. So anyways it is about your heart and your mind if you want to be thinking about killing people then worrying if "God" would care or if you want to spend your time and talents on something that puts a better feeling in you and in the people around you. But if you decide you are okay with killing people let me know and I can send you a list to get started on. Ha ha. Thanks. j/k. I don't think it is wrong to be angry or think about things like that, I think a lot of people suffer and feel anger and think about killing people because of their hearts. Like if people are abusing children you might want to kill them but that is because you are the kind of person who can empathize with the children that are getting hurt and you just want it to stop right away. As for "God" noticing or giving a fuck what you do, well I think he is a damn lazy bastard who is sitting on his ass eating bon bons while people suffer, including little children in the worst most horrible ways, so if you get to the pearly gates and "God" says "oh what about this thing you did" you can say "Uhm, excuse me, you were on vacation, apparently, for several thousand years, and we worked it out the best we could. I thought about it and asked for advice on the internet and I didn't hear back from you, so, what, you were lazing on the beach and didn't bother to answer my question?" Then "God" would probably just rush you through the gate so as not to cause a scene and further embarass him.
But in all seriousness, I think _Of Human Bondage_ is a pretty good run-down on life and meaning and stuff. Also _The English Patient_. War is hard on people, on any scale.