Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 15, 2007, 10:09:05 PM
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Oh come on that’s only the tip of the ice berg, lets be honest, no exaggerating here, we need to be credible or no parents will believe us. Here is a more complete account:
No food.
Sexual abused in everyway.
Repeat beatings.
No water.
No bathroom.
No bedding.
Little items I had were stolen, like my sweaty hat and shoes.
My Bible ripped and wrecked.
What little food I got, stolen from me.
Forced to drink cum, piss, eat shit.
Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason. (my favorite)[/i]
No toilet paper.
Had rocks and items thrown at me.
Locked in a hot, wooden box.
Forced to eat paper.
Forced to be naked for a week.
Thrown into the ocean during a typhoon. ( I think he would keep blowing back ,would'nt he?)[/i]
Kicked down a hill and had logs thrown on me.
Had a chair slammed into my gut.
Obtained more skin diseases than a POW in Vietnam.
Forced to carry "sandbags" of rocks up and down hills.
Ha, ha, ha
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What do you mean by "your favorite" TheWho?
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Why did you bold some and not others. Are those your favorites also? Making jokes about children forced to do disgusting acts?
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http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=80 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21145&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=80)
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Fuck that shit. Some kids get sent away simply because their parents are tired of being terrorized by the little demon they tried to raise to be a decent human being.
Ha,Ha,Ha,.. thats funny!
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... start=2500 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=10982&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=2500)
What kind of person comes to fornits to be entertained by stories of torture? A sadist? Thewho.
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This actually gives the real Who a bad name.......... wtf?
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This actually gives the real Who a bad name.......... wtf?
naw.. it's just a repost of where he said it here:
http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=255174#255174
well.. back to drawing...
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It shows how many people here really believe this happens everyday at TBS's or wilderness. I know differently, kids are not Duct taped from head to toe and thrown into an ocean during a typhoon, the same as they are not made to march without food. These are all distortions to scare parents away... anyone coming on here for the first time might believe some of the stories told, but as the stories grow and grow you loose the ability (credibility) to scare people aware from these places.
I just think it is funny that everyone buys into this crap like its a religion or something and its sacrilegious to not believe everything or talk against it as I do.
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This actually gives the real Who a bad name.......... wtf?
naw.. it's just a repost of where he said it here:
http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=255174#255174
well.. back to drawing...
:o
Dude? wtf?
Thats low even for a program-parent, sick..........
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Yes, we have to acknowledge that those things don't happen to everyone everyday.
But ... Would you take the chance and gamble with the most valuable person in your life - your child?
Those things happens from time to time to someones children and you could do what everybody else do, when it comes to traffic: It is not my child, who dies in a traffic accident. It is only the other parents children. But someone does die every single day.
Why increase this risk? Why send the child out to play on the highway?
What I have learned here is that I am a lucky person living in country where employers know that if they give me time off to take my own child out in the wilderness, if we get to a point where things heat up. The time he gives me time off in a crisis situation would be paid back 10 times, when I return to work.
Why time off in such crisis situations are not an issue in your country, I don't understand. It must be 100 times less stressful for the child if the family becomes a fulltime part of the solution instead of those pathetic days in the end.
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It shows how many people here really believe this happens everyday at TBS's or wilderness. I know differently, kids are not Duct taped from head to toe and thrown into an ocean during a typhoon, the same as they are not made to march without food. These are all distortions to scare parents away...
Well as far as the tape.. Go watch the PBS documentary on Montana TBS's. Now watch carefully... as a parent actually witnessed it... And that happened here, in the glorious USA. As far as the marching without food? Go read this blog: http://www.63days.com/ (http://www.63days.com/). That too, happened in this country. And before discounting THAT survivors testomony, you should google Steve Cartesano.
anyone coming on here for the first time might believe some of the stories told, but as the stories grow and grow you loose the ability (credibility) to scare people aware from these places.
I just think it is funny that everyone buys into this crap like its a religion or something and its sacrilegious to not believe everything or talk against it as I do.
Ya know... Not all schools are that bad, it doesn't have to be Auschwitz to be a bad place. Yeah some places are horrific. And you apparently are too arrogant to admit it could happen here. You've seen the abuse I described in Romania first hand. You've seen the street kids. I've seen them beaten publicly and others just go about thier business. You have the audacity to deny it happened at all in Western fucking Samoa... Where kids are used as cannon-fodder in the army?!?! This is just human nature buddy, and it's sick. It happens everywhere given a chance.
Sometimes the things you say are just... beyond the pale. I would probably be angrier, but people saying "oh that doesn't happen, you're exagerating" is all to common. One day i'll snap and demonstrate the proper breakdown technique on such a person... Until then, i've heard it all before. You're just another program parent in denial, refusing to acknowlege the shit he put his daughter through, and looking for some type of rational exhonoration ... some validation ... by confronting those who are just like the one you personally hurt. Maybe you're right to be skeptical, but keep it to yourself. You weren't there. You don't know what happened, an for the record it hurts every time somebody says "oh that didn't happen"... It's like being in program all over again, trying to tell your parents what's going on, and being accused of manipulating.
FUCK YOU!! it happened. OK.
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The who doesn't get it because he probably doesn't really love his children. Unwilling to do his job as a parent he let some one else do what they pleased behind closed doors.
His response was just the manifestation of his denial. Somewhere he knows that his daughter was being treated like an animal.
Ha!
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It shows how many people here really believe this happens everyday at TBS's or wilderness. I know differently, kids are not Duct taped from head to toe and thrown into an ocean during a typhoon, the same as they are not made to march without food. These are all distortions to scare parents away... anyone coming on here for the first time might believe some of the stories told, but as the stories grow and grow you loose the ability (credibility) to scare people aware from these places.
I just think it is funny that everyone buys into this crap like its a religion or something and its sacrilegious to not believe everything or talk against it as I do.
Those things did happen at Samoa.
You are an asshole, TheWho.
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No normal person would make jokes about a teenager being tortured. This person must be a troll or a sick individual just posting here for their own twisted sadistic pleasure. People are not that cruel, insensitive, inhumane... are they? :cry:
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No normal person would make jokes about a teenager being tortured. This person must be a troll
We ruled that one out long ago.
or a sick individual just posting here for their own twisted sadistic pleasure. People are not that cruel, insensitive, inhumane... are they? :cry:
Yes they are apparently. Now come on now, does that surprise you. This whole industry wouldn't exist without people like him.
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It seems "TheWho" fancies himself an expert on what did and did not go on at Paradise Cove, a WWSAPS owned facility in Samoa.
I wonder if he's read the dozens of similar accounts in sworn court testimony. I wonder if he's taken the time to read that?
He is so self absorbed he thinks it's about parents, that people post in an attempt to scare parents.
No, you sick, fuck, we are just trying to make sense of what dismissive abusive parents such as yourself did to us years ago. Get it yet?
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an for the record it hurts every time somebody says "oh that didn't happen"... It's like being in program all over again, trying to tell your parents what's going on, and being accused of manipulating..
He KNOWS it hurts. That is why he posts here. We are all like a group of ducks with a big target on our backs and he is going hunting. This is the easiest site to troll because people post stories about the most damaging events of their lives here. They post things that make them vulnerable. TheWho knows exactly what he is doing, and is laughing all the while he is doing it. He sent his daughter to an abusive program and now that he can't fuck with her, he comes here to fuck with anyone who will let him. The casualness with which he displays his vitriolic hatred is disturbing. Prisons exist for people like TheWho, he is the embodiment of everything wrong with our society. He hurts people for pleasure, is there anything more that needs to be said?
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TheWho needs to apologize to programmer.
Will you do that TheWHo?
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It seems "TheWho" fancies himself an expert on what did and did not go on at Paradise Cove, a WWSAPS owned facility in Samoa.
I wonder if he's read the dozens of similar accounts in sworn court testimony. I wonder if he's taken the time to read that?
I doubt it. See... The idiot is looking for details on why it couldn't be true, because he doesn't want to believe things can be that bad... For example, the duct tape and the ocean example he cast doubt on... Problem is, he doesn't look at other indicators.. like the mother who paid to shut him up. People don't do that without a reason. He's interested in re-enforcing his existing view, not objectively looking at the big picture. He focuses on "how many deaths in program" as if that's the only thing that matters... completely ignoring those who choose to die rather than continue with life after tbs... or those who try to end it, but fail in program. This isn't even to mention the psychological damage to those who choose life.
He is so self absorbed he thinks it's about parents, that people post in an attempt to scare parents.
No, you sick, fuck, we are just trying to make sense of what dismissive abusive parents such as yourself did to us years ago. Get it yet?
Nope. Seen the 200+ page thread? He ain't gonna get it. He can't get it. He's in deep deep denial (and i hate that word given that it's AA cliché). If and when he realizes what he did, he ain't gonna be posting about it here. Too much pride i'm guessing. Same reason i'm guessing he isn't about to apologize to programmer when he figures out "whoopps... i guess he was telling the truth". I really wish he would fuck off, but nothing anybody says seems to faze him... Believe me, i've tried to offend him. It's not like getting rid of KarenInDallas or Ottowa5.
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Pledge to ban theWho (http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21229)
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an for the record it hurts every time somebody says "oh that didn't happen"... It's like being in program all over again, trying to tell your parents what's going on, and being accused of manipulating..
He KNOWS it hurts. That is why he posts here. We are all like a group of ducks with a big target on our backs and he is going hunting. This is the easiest site to troll because people post stories about the most damaging events of their lives here. They post things that make them vulnerable. TheWho knows exactly what he is doing, and is laughing all the while he is doing it. He sent his daughter to an abusive program and now that he can't fuck with her, he comes here to fuck with anyone who will let him. The casualness with which he displays his vitriolic hatred is disturbing. Prisons exist for people like TheWho, he is the embodiment of everything wrong with our society. He hurts people for pleasure, is there anything more that needs to be said?
Personally I think he's just very very insensitive and socially inept. It takes a truly evil person to kick those who are already down. TheWho may be a complete fuckhead, but i'm not sure he realizes the pain he causes others with his words. In his mind, we're all master manipulators, and all our stories are lies. It's what he has to believe to protect himself. Hatred isn't what i get from the who. I think it's pure cynicism, and mistrust of those who he sees as a mirror image of his daughter. We will talk to him(well some of us will) but his daughter won't. So maybe he's trying to find a surrogate for the relationship he destroyed.
"Hey.. you got conned" isn't going to make TheWho feel better like it would some parents. He's too arrogant to admit anybody could put one over on him. He is looking for somebody to aggree with him, and will stick around until that happens. He is looking to hear that he was right (because, somewhere, secretly, he doubts his "truth").
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Personally I think he's just very very insensitive and socially inept. It takes a truly evil person to kick those who are already down. TheWho may be a complete fuckhead, but i'm not sure he realizes the pain he causes others with his words.
He knows perfectly well, and smile while he does it. He misses the idea of having his daughter forced into a program, he went to bed every night happy that he finally got rid of his problem. I've seen too many program parents like him to ignore it. They are deliberate with their pain, they dish it out with a smile on their sick faces and love every minute of it.
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Pledge to ban theWho (http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21229)
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Personally I think he's just very very insensitive and socially inept. It takes a truly evil person to kick those who are already down. TheWho may be a complete fuckhead, but i'm not sure he realizes the pain he causes others with his words.
He knows perfectly well, and smile while he does it. He misses the idea of having his daughter forced into a program, he went to bed every night happy that he finally got rid of his problem. I've seen too many program parents like him to ignore it. They are deliberate with their pain, they dish it out with a smile on their sick faces and love every minute of it.
That was what I believed until I talked with my parents about it. Program wants you to believe they were sadists. It prevents a re-unification of the family that could potentially result in legal action. When I was in program, I had nightmares that my mother was chasing me, trying to kill me.
Think what would happen if your conversations with your parents every week or so were pleasant... Why.. they might even let you come home... Program can't have that, so they engineer hostility. Recognize it, and free yourself from their control.
That being said, yeah there are some fucked up, sadistic parents. But I don't think he is one. I might be wrong, but his concern for Romanian orphans was genuine, so I doubt it.
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Psy-do your parents spend their days and nights online finding survivor stories and using them in jokes and saying that they know things like that can never happen even thought they do to many kids? Does anybody else's parents do these things like THeWho and KareninDallas?
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Psy wrote:
Ya know... Not all schools are that bad, it doesn't have to be Auschwitz to be a bad place. Yeah some places are horrific. And you apparently are too arrogant to admit it could happen here. You've seen the abuse I described in Romania first hand. You've seen the street kids. I've seen them beaten publicly and others just go about thier business. You have the audacity to deny it happened at all in Western fucking Samoa... Where kids are used as cannon-fodder in the army?!?! This is just human nature buddy, and it's sick. It happens everywhere given a chance.
Yes, it does, and it is sad. I have witnessed it first hand. I have visited orphanages in Russia, Moldova and Kazakhstan. Worked with the kids first hand and documented the conditions there. I am sure the list that is described has happened somewhere because I have seen the potential of what one human being can do to another and how children can be perceived as a nuisance or embarrassment especially if they are handicapped and are typically hidden away. I have seen first hand that orphans who need minor surgery to correct club feet or cp etc. are not performed and since there are no orphanages for handicap children they place these children in adult mental institutions (horrible places) where they are slowly destroyed and assimilated. You rarely see any handicapped people in these countries, this is why, they become mentally ill.
You can get pissed and outraged all you want, you haven’t seen the full capacity of what one human can do to another for the sheer enjoyment of it or because they are threatened or consumed with hate. But to take these isolated incidences and try to compare them to what goes on in wilderness or TBS’s schools today is a farce. Do you really expect parents to believe their kids are going to be duct taped and thrown in the ocean if they send them to SUWS of the Carolinas? Do you think they are marched and never fed? Forced to consume other people body fluids at ASR? This how information is disseminated here. If you can find something horrible that has happened to a child somewhere in the world you can apply this to all programs freely and say “see this happens if you send you children away”.
I understand that not all kids do well in the industry, as my daughter did. But I also don’t paint the entire industry based on my one experience. I recognize places can exist like straight and paradise cove but what many people here can’t see is that there are places which are not like this and benefit children and the approach taken and attempt to do this I find very humorous, sometimes.
The Russian government announced this week that they are closing their doors to adoptions in their country because of allegations of abuse here in the united states,Canada and other countries. Of the 15,000 children adopted each year from Russia a handful have been abused and/or died so they are closing their doors. They have an estimated 250,000 children in orphanages in conditions you would not even believe…isolation doesn’t mean they only get a 20 minute phone call each week….. a 10 mile hike in the woods with food and a place to rest at the end of the day would be paradise. The minute they closed their doors an estimated 300 children a day will “age out” and will never become available for adoption and move into the streets to live a life of prostitution and crime. Guatemala has already done this, Romania wont even discuss their children let alone allow anyone to help them anymore. Moldova is starting to pull their shade down as well as many other former Soviet countries. Many (not all) orphanage directors in Kazakhstan believe the kids destiny is sealed at birth and don’t believe in adoption…”Why would anyone want to raise someone else’s child?” is an often heard reply from officials…Have you ever seen a child start shaking and vomiting, dig their nails into you because their “Caretaker entered the room?” or an entire wing filled with 40 children awake in their cages with not one of them crying because they have learned way too early that it brings no attention their way……..anyway sorry to ramble.
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I believe what you say about those kids in Romania getting abused and suffering.
So why do you not believe Programmer when he tells his story?
Big difference, do you notice that TheWho?
You called Programmer a liar and made fun of his story, remember?
Why is him being duct taped from head to toe "your favorite" of the horrible things on his list? What does that mean TheWho?
Why do you make fun of the fact he was repeatedly thrown in the ocean?
Do you make fun of those Romanian street kids?
How come I believe you but you don't believe Programmer?
And why is that your "favorite"? Do you take pleasure from reading stories of abuse? Why do you joke about it and say it didn't happen?
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I have seen the potential of what one human being can do to another and how children can be perceived as a nuisance or embarrassment especially if they are handicapped and are typically hidden away.
SO have many posters here, at the behest of their parents. Things like this:
I'm going to skip some details, but here's a list of shit that I had happened to me:
No food.
Sexual abused in everyway.
Repeat beatings.
No water.
No bathroom.
No bedding.
Little items I had were stolen, like my sweaty hat and shoes.
My Bible ripped and wrecked.
What little food I got, stolen from me.
Forced to drink cum, piss, eat shit.
Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason.
No toilet paper.
Had rocks and items thrown at me.
Locked in a hot, wooden box.
Forced to eat paper.
Forced to be naked for a week.
Thrown into the ocean during a typhoon.
Kicked down a hill and had logs thrown on me.
Had a chair slammed into my gut.
Obtained more skin diseases than a POW in Vietnam.
Forced to carry "sandbags" of rocks up and down hills.
Lived in the jungle called Le Tiera.
Screamed at and clubbed during seminars.
Had other "students" "enforce" "rules" on me for no reason.
I'm sure there's more if I went into it day by day. Which I can. In the end, a Christmas arguement broke out between the staff and me. I had the whole "beach" I was in ready to fight back. I had stored over the 22 months, bags, clubs, wood, rocks, homemade slings, homemade spears, shanks from toothbrushes, waterhoses for whips, seashells for spikes in the clubs, nails and screws I found, random kitchen and computer parts for weaponary. Toxic chemicals made from shampoo, toothpaste and sea creatures and plants, and bars of soap for use in socks. A boiling point came when they wanted us to do "choose" from dancing like a bunch of jigaboos and coons and just staying on the "beach" and doing nothing. I chose nothing. The lady in charge comes over and argues with me. She then lays "consequences" on me. Just for disagreeing? Um, hello, we're Americans, we disagree on EVERYTHING! After everybody was forced out, she said I don't get a consequence if I fuck her. Honestly, what the Hell, right? I was there for 20 months by then without pussy or a woman, and I was forced to do gross shit that nobody would do outside of a Dutch porn room, so I did it fast and went about my business. Shows you what kind of "professionals" they hire, huh?
Why do you feel it's necessary to make fun of these things? This is not an isolated incident. Thousands of kids go through WWASPS programs. Why do you lie and say these things never happened? Why do you think that this is funny TheWho? I left your personal comments about bolding and things being your favorite and snide remarks because I find them offensive and hurtful.
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But to take these isolated incidences and try to compare them to what goes on in wilderness or TBS’s schools today is a farce. Do you really expect parents to believe their kids are going to be duct taped and thrown in the ocean if they send them to SUWS of the Carolinas?
Of course not. Everyone knows SUWS-Carolina is nowhere near the ocean. That's ok, though. I've seen kids driven past the point of catatonia using nothing but a slightly stepped up, extended version of a come-down rap carried out in a warehouse right on a busy road nestled between regular old businesses.
No, I don't expect people like you, Who, to believe what you're involved in any more than all the good, right thinking German citizens believed that there were death camps and obscene medical experiments going on in the prison camps outside their villages. But some did. There were the rare Edelweiss Pirates and, eventually, the world had to come to terms with the truth.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -
-- C.S. Lewis
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Why do you lie and say these things never happened?
I honestly don't think he's lying. He actually believes his own bullshit. I've seen it too many times and even in people I know well. My own dad was so thoroughly convinced for awhile that the Program was the only thing that could save my life from my imaginary drug problem that he went way beyond his own moral code in order to keep me in it.
He once asked me why, if all these horrible things he heard and read about had been true, why I hadn't ever told him. I just reminded him that, if I had, he would have reported me to staff. He knew that was true. But that was over a year after I came of age, got out and he could see that I wasn't really a heroin addicted streetwalker after all. It was a hard blow to his pride, realizing how fully and horribly he had been taken in. Not everybody has the kind of fortitude to come to terms with something like that. Most of them go to their graves never able to discuss the matter frankly with their kids.
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It is ironic that he writes with such compassion about the kids he personally witnessed experience suffering. We witnessed with our own eyes children suffering as well, in programs, in this country. Paid for, by our own parents, deliberately. Ironic that he dismisses this abuse as exaggeration's and a few isolated incidents. Was his last sentence about seeing kids in cages, and grabbing him with his nails an exaggeration to make Russia look bad? I feel like a idiot even suggesting something that absurd. So how can he suggest something equally absurd about the posters here? Does he and I have a different set of human emotions? No, he knows what he is doing is cruel, but his hobby is to redirect and shut down serious debate by flooding this forum with meaningless statistics and using his personality to make kids think that parents do not care. It is a deliberate and carefully devised plan of his to enact censorship on this forum using his own means. Like the post a couple back, his goal of keeping survivors from posting their stories, has been accomplished.
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but his hobby is to redirect and shut down serious debate by flooding this forum with meaningless statistics and using his personality to make kids think that parents do not care. It is a deliberate and carefully devised plan of his to enact censorship on this forum using his own means.
Instead of even considering a ban, he should just be ignored (I've stated this before.) Perhaps a sticky thread clueing in the new readers / potential posters is in order?
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You are partially right. There are stories which I don’t believe because over the time I have spent here I slowly discovered there are people (like RobertBruce etal, to name one) who lay out half truths with the sole purpose of misleading people, not intending to share or tell their story. This does an injustice to parents who are looking for honest information. The stories which are true are used to paint the entire industry one color by others. If gone unchecked the stories of kids being duct taped or thrown into the ocean would have made their way into every TBS and wilderness as a daily occurrence. If people here were a little more honest and corrected each other and held each others feet to the fire a little more you could create a more cohesive strength and believability which would hold up as parents pick thru here looking for honest information to guide them in their decisions. So, I was wrong in poking fun at the list, but my purpose wasn’t to dismiss his account but to poke fun (or bring to light) at the direction the information was going or potentially was going. I apologize to programmer #5 who wrote it and experienced it from Paradise Cove. It was insensitive of me, I am sorry
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Link us to the post that attempted to link Programmer's experience to everyone else's.
His post was not mentioned in the thread you quoted it in, not once, until you brought it up. You had no point at the time other than to poke fun at his experience. You searched for it, found it, copy/pasted horrible list of abuses that happened to him, and added your snide remarks. Is this how you make all your points?
It's clear you had no point at the time other than to try and make a joke at the expense of someone who endured more abuse than you could possibly imagine.
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So, I was wrong in poking fun at the list, but my purpose wasn’t to dismiss his account but to poke fun (or bring to light) at the direction the information was going or potentially was going.
You made fun of his experience why exactly? Link us to the posts you were refuting with your "point" please, because I can't seem to find them. You are trying to find a justification for your sick humor, after being called out on it, that is obvious.
I apologize to programmer #5 who wrote it and experienced it from Paradise Cove. It was insensitive of me, I am sorry
Go post this in the thread he posted in and explain why exactly you think it's funny that those things happened to him. Why is it "your favorite" that he was duct taped? Please explain that to him as well.
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"Hey.. you got conned" isn't going to make TheWho feel better like it would some parents. He's too arrogant to admit anybody could put one over on him. He is looking for somebody to aggree with him, and will stick around until that happens. He is looking to hear that he was right (because, somewhere, secretly, he doubts his "truth").
I just got done w/ a typical email exchange w/ a program advocate, Dore Frances. Not sure I want to invite another slapp suit right now or I'd repost the whole exchange for comic relief. But it went something like this.
Somebody said something about Dore that she didn't like. So, typical of control freaks, she went searching for someone in charge who she might be able to frighten or otherwise influence to enforce her wildly delusional control fantasies on this person's free speech. I guess she wouldn't bother just PMing the person with who's words she took issue and I guess she already knew she'd get nowhere with me.
So, instead, she pretended to Kelly that she was just too inept and to unfamiliar w/ all this high tech computer stuff to figure out how to contact either the author or me. FYI to all. Kelly's a web tech extrodinaire! I'm eternally grateful to her for pulling this site out of the drain, taking care of an endless list of tech issues and all that. But she doesn't want anything to do with policy admin. So, of course, she just forwarded the complaint to me, I told Dore just what she already knew and she decided that " it is not worth my time giving these people any attention."
I think you're probably partially right about what motivates a character like Who. But there's more too it. Obviously, he's crushing on Deb to an embarrasing extent. Poor fucker, doesn't stand a chance there. But I bet Dore and Ottawa and others like them just swooooon over his bravery, facing down all us angry, ungrateful, fucked up Program wash outs, day after day, suffering the slings and arrows. Who knows, maybe he gets laid as much as Pirate out of this deal? Would explain a lot, eh? :rofl:
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Does he and I have a different set of human emotions? No, he knows what he is doing is cruel, but his hobby is to redirect and shut down serious debate by flooding this forum with meaningless statistics and using his personality to make kids think that parents do not care. It is a deliberate and carefully devised plan of his to enact censorship on this forum using his own means. Like the post a couple back, his goal of keeping survivors from posting their stories, has been accomplished.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. I think Psy's right. It just makes more sense. He's not actually shutting anybody down, even if that is his intent. If anything, he's keeping focus on the issue by playing the straight man to our narration; however unwittingly.
No, given the sheer time and focus this dude has devoted to his demonstration, it makes more sense that he's running on emotional need or financial gain.Maybe both. I understand his daddy is a principle in one of the banks that finances the industry. Corn pone opinions, anyone?
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But I bet Dore and Ottawa and others like them just swooooon over his bravery, facing down all us angry, ungrateful, fucked up Program wash outs, day after day, suffering the slings and arrows. Who knows, maybe he gets laid as much as Pirate out of this deal? Would explain a lot, eh?
Ewww... thnx a lot, G...I just ate! :exclaim:
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Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. I think Psy's right. It just makes more sense. He's not actually shutting anybody down, even if that is his intent. If anything, he's keeping focus on the issue by playing the straight man to our narration; however unwittingly.
No, given the sheer time and focus this dude has devoted to his demonstration, it makes more sense that he's running on emotional need or financial gain.Maybe both. I understand his daddy is a principle in one of the banks that finances the industry. Corn pone opinions, anyone?
No, I've wasted enough time on him already..... next.. 8-)
Eh, howza 'bout that sticky thread idea..? Ain't nobody gonna touch that one?
I see how it is... :rofl:
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Sorry, sorry!
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Eh, howza 'bout that sticky thread idea..? Ain't nobody gonna touch that one?
I see how it is... :rofl:
Well, it's just that it's sort of endless. Who is just playing out his role as one of the usual suspects in this tragic comedy. He's not the least bit unique. If he ever wakes up or gets tired of this and bounces off, another one will come along. I had a little fun early on fucking with the likes of Nazi and his buddy, forget the name... some former Elan staffer who was frantically scurrying around trying to keep his skeletons in the closet. But then I realized that, all good intentions aside, I had made a fiction out of the dialog. Oh, it was funny as hell watching him respond to ghost posts that no one else could see and trying to harass this one gal when she wasn't actually online. But it wasn't really helping anything. In fact, I think my interference actually helped make the Elan forum the sewer that it is. Sorry.
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Does he and I have a different set of human emotions? No, he knows what he is doing is cruel, but his hobby is to redirect and shut down serious debate by flooding this forum with meaningless statistics and using his personality to make kids think that parents do not care. It is a deliberate and carefully devised plan of his to enact censorship on this forum using his own means. Like the post a couple back, his goal of keeping survivors from posting their stories, has been accomplished.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. I think Psy's right. It just makes more sense. He's not actually shutting anybody down, even if that is his intent. If anything, he's keeping focus on the issue by playing the straight man to our narration; however unwittingly.
No, given the sheer time and focus this dude has devoted to his demonstration, it makes more sense that he's running on emotional need or financial gain.Maybe both. I understand his daddy is a principle in one of the banks that finances the industry. Corn pone opinions, anyone?
In the program survivor world, this is considered the extremist site. Now if the leader of the so-called extremist anti-program site is able to forgive parents who unrelentlessly bash program survivors and discount their personal stories of abuse and hardship, what hope is there really?
Program parents have money, they aren't retarded. They read through this stuff like anyone else, only the do not respond how we think they do. They take careful notice of the posts in which stupidity and ignorance are used as a defense of program parents. This can be extended all the way up to program owners. Until, miraculously, nobody is responsible for the abuse suffered, other than the victim themselves.
This is the strategy used by many powerful leaders throughout history including Dubya. Play stupid, let everyone's ego take hold and take pity upon you and lower their expectations. Unwittingly these people follow their personal agendas, not knowing they are truly playing into the hand of the program conspirator. This is the act of those skirting responsibility for the deliberately evil actions, and it works quite well.
Let people think they are doing what they want to do, if necessary, play their nemesis and fight them to convince them they are doing the right thing. This is what TheWho and others do on this forum in a carefully constructed attempt to make it look like we are a bunch of nuts and isolated cases.
So long as parents and program staff and owners can play stupid, and take the "Im a good ol' christian with a good heart" defense, this industry will continue.
We have seen the underbelly of this monster, feeding on the corposes and souls of kids and teenagers and everyone who hasn't does not believe that monsters are real. You can go up and down the street yelling that monsters are real, but nobody will believe it until there is a monster breathing down their neck about to show them just how real they are.
TheWHo plays the ignorance and good old christian defense like a well tuned instrument, he plays a beautiful rhetorical tune that enchant many because it's exactly what they want to hear.
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If gone unchecked the stories of kids being duct taped or thrown into the ocean would have made their way into every TBS and wilderness as a daily occurrence. If people here were a little more honest and corrected each other and held each others feet to the fire a little more you could create a more cohesive strength and believability which would hold up as parents pick thru here looking for honest information to guide them in their decisions.
In other, simpler words, Who, you think we'd be a whole lot more effective as advocates if only we would work the Program on each other and control the dialog the way you're accustomed to doing? Good luck with that!
Sorry, really honestly sorry for your soul, but these extreme examples are part and parcel of what the industry is made up of. It's only a matter of degrees. Even in those places that you, from the outside, think are not all that bad, they use the more physically horrible programs as a threat to hang over the kids' heads to keep them in line. This happens again and again over years and decades, all across the country and under whatever corporate banner you may choose next. It's not coincidence, it's a perfectly predictable, inescapable result of putting zealot lunatics in charge of helpless kids. You can go on telling yourself forever that that's not the case. And you probably will. There are still Nazis drawing breath who persist in believing that the Holocaust was all enemy propaganda. Hell, there are still plenty of left wing socialists who still think good old Uncle Joe had it right.
But your stayed belief does not change the facts. And your insistence on declaring your beliefs only shows you for the fool that you are.
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My wife was horrified and enraged, and rather than follow the first instinct of fighting them, she got her camera and started photographing the insanity. The staff obviously knew they were wrong and being documented, and started howling "She's got a camera! She's got a camera!"
This is from another thread. But it shows my poiunt that these people know what they are doing is wrong. They pretend they don't to prevent being held accountable.
Just like theWho has admitted making fun of Programmers story was wrong. He would not have thought this, or admitted it if no one brought it up.
They see absolutely nothing wrong with what they are doing.
But they will pretend to, when people like us show up and call them on it, out of fear of being caught for the abusers they are.
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In the program survivor world, this is considered the extremist site. Now if the leader of the so-called extremist anti-program site is able to forgive parents who unrelentlessly bash program survivors and discount their personal stories of abuse and hardship, what hope is there really?
Oh, I have no intention of letting these fuckers off the hook! Just giving them enough rope and sit back and laugh while they sputter and choke.
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Well, it's just that it's sort of endless. Who is just playing out his role as one of the usual suspects in this tragic comedy. He's not the least bit unique. If he ever wakes up or gets tired of this and bounces off, another one will come along.
How about we just try it for a little while and see what happens...?
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My wife was horrified and enraged, and rather than follow the first instinct of fighting them, she got her camera and started photographing the insanity. The staff obviously knew they were wrong and being documented, and started howling "She's got a camera! She's got a camera!"
This is from another thread. But it shows my poiunt that these people know what they are doing is wrong. They pretend they don't to prevent being held accountable.
Just like theWho has admitted making fun of Programmers story was wrong. He would not have thought this, or admitted it if no one brought it up.
They see absolutely nothing wrong with what they are doing.
But they will pretend to, when people like us show up and call them on it, out of fear of being caught for the abusers they are.
Almost. I have the benefit or curse of having been involved w/ this cult from the time I was about 6 years old. I was sitting on the parents' side at open meetings and those never ending coffee klatches at Denny's into the wee hours afterward. I know more than anybody should ever have to about just exactly how program parents think because my mother was a prototype, my brother married a staffer and at least one of my nieces and nephews have been put through it. Not sure about the other. I asked my brother, he denied it. But then, he'd be perfectly justified in a little white lie of omission like that, of course, because if he told me the truth I might get all hostile and crazy and all. And why should he have to subject himself to that, right chillin?
The same loopy logic goes here. It's not that they know they're doing wrong. It's that they think they're endowed with superior insight into the dark depravity of the troubled teen monster. They think they're saving the world, they're martyrs. Why, they should be pinned with ribbons and medals, not held up to shame by the clueless public who just don't understand how much they sacrifice, how deeply they care and all the abuse they suffer in the name of trying to save just one kid from themselves!
Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_(book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_(book))
That's how people like Sue Scheff get away with posing as sincere, caring, helpful people. That's why parents and, for awhile there, a good many program vets vested so much faith in her. They're convincing because she believes their own bullshit. They justify lying about some of the more disturbing aspects of it by telling themselves that outsiders just wouldn't understand.
Shit, somewhere there's an instruction sheet from SAFE, Inc.,for program parents on how to recruit other parents. It explicitly states that they should direct any questions beyond those they are authorized to answer to the staff office. By way of explanation, it asks something like "After all, if you knew what was really involved, would you have agreed to this?"
I think I'm gonna dig around and see if I can find that stuff now.
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Even in your family alone, there is a 4:1 ratio of program supporters related to your experience. So even those of us who are severely fucked over, still, the net benefit goes to program ideology because more people were infected than cured of it. The idea itself is infectious. You can almost see the wheels turning as the ideology is explained to parents fed up with their parenting job. Maybe they are right. Maybe society's progress is a bad thing. Maybe the answer is as simple as training a dog. This is offered up to them on a plate, and they chow down like the pigs that they are.
Just because someone puts a feast in front of you doesn't make you hungry. Those people ate because they were hungry for an ideology that allows them to express their control, greed, fear, anger and revengeful ideas on others, including theirs and other people's children.
My family has a 2:1 pro program ratio. If this is a numbers game, they are definitely winning. And if the believability of our stories is solely dependent on those of us who's how up to group on any given day, well, the reality of what is going on can be easily shifted to offer an ever increasingly appetizing plate for all those hungry parents out there.
That same rope slack given out for the hangin' can also be used as a lasso.
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It seems that way, sure. But only because the people who post are almost all either program vets or among the brainwashed. But we're not the only ones reading.
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(http://http://www.ninjaacademy.com/Pics/Ninja_Academy_horizontal_logo.gif)
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In other, simpler words, Who, you think we'd be a whole lot more effective as advocates if only we would work the Program on each other and control the dialog the way you're accustomed to doing? Good luck with that!
We don’t need to work a program on each other, just not hold up a double standard. If a program parent steps out of line and says something that doesn’t agree with the majority everyone steps in to point it out, which is great, you are all pulling together (checks and balances) lets get an apology etc.
But flip it over and say a poster jumps on a program parent and scuffs them up a little more than they should; no one, typically, steps in to say “Hey you were out of line, how do you know he was a bad parent….” Or if someone tosses out a half truth to lead a reader to believe something that isn’t true or makes a school look bad, there doesn’t seem to be a rush to correct the accusation.
All I am saying is if everyone is bent out of shape because of my insult, where are these people when the insult is unfairly directed at the parents, should they be banned? Should they apologize? Should their feet be held to the fire also?
It would add more credability to the people here.
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We don’t need to work a program on each other, just not hold up a double standard.
We? What, you got a mouse in your pocket?
If a program parent steps out of line and says something that doesn’t agree with the majority everyone steps in to point it out, which is great, you are all pulling together (checks and balances) lets get an apology etc.
No, you're missing a crucial point here. In your small world, you determin what is and is not reality by consensus. In the more commonly accepted reality, people speak for themselves. Frankly, with few exceptions, we all don't even like each other very much, let alone pull together for some purpose.
All I am saying is if everyone is bent out of shape because of my insult, where are these people when the insult is unfairly directed at the parents, should they be banned? Should they apologize? Should their feet be held to the fire also?
It would add more credability to the people here.
Only from your point of view. See, you rest a whole lot of your belifs on the idea that we must be making this shit up. We're not. Why in the hell would anybody do that? You have pretty obvious incentive to "adjust" your perceptions. What's our incentive?
Honestly, I don't feel any particular urge to defend parents when they whine about getting back just a tiny fraction of what they've paid to have done to their own kids. Sorry, go cry on someone else's shoulder.
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I am sure it feels very comfortable and honest for you to reply to me this way:
Honestly, I don't feel any particular urge to defend parents when they whine about getting back just a tiny fraction of what they've paid to have done to their own kids. Sorry, go cry on someone else's shoulder.
But if we inverted a few words I bet you and many here would all of a sudden find it offensive. If anyone does, this is my point. If you dont then you understand me.
"Honestly, I don't feel any particular urge to defend kids when they whine about getting back just a tiny fraction of what they've put their parents through. Sorry, go cry on someone else's shoulder."
...
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I am sure it feels very comfortable and honest for you to reply to me this way:
Honestly, I don't feel any particular urge to defend parents when they whine about getting back just a tiny fraction of what they've paid to have done to their own kids. Sorry, go cry on someone else's shoulder.
But if we inverted a few words I bet you and many here would all of a sudden find it offensive. If anyone does, this is my point. If you dont then you understand me.
"Honestly, I don't feel any particular urge to defend kids when they whine about getting back just a tiny fraction of what they've put their parents through. Sorry, go cry on someone else's shoulder."
...
LOL, offensive? No, just foolish and silly. And a clear demonstration that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
I've played both roles, jack ass. I have kids old enough to drink, vote, kill or die in war and who have shown me just what it's like to walk a mile in your shoes. Hands down, no contest, no regrets and without reservation I can say that you have no FUCKING clue what you're talking about!
Honestly, I'm not usually a terribly spiteful person, but I hope you land up in some horribly abusive, filthy, cold drafty nursing home one day. You'll be the only one who thinks you're not completely senile, though you'll struggle with doubts about that constantly. You'll piss yourself and be shamed and punished for it. You'll cry, which will give the staff a good laugh. Your kids won't believe you if you try to tell them what's happening because, of course, you're fucking nuts, right? Poor dear old dad, losing his mind that way...
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It would add more credability to the people here.
And when did you become so concerned about the credibility of Fornits or the autonomous posters here? Give us a break. You would be thrilled if Fornits was no more.
Isn't this really about your need to control a "Survivors" venue? I believe it is or you'd go create the forum you keep trying to make Fornits become-it's futile dude.
There actually have been many times when regulars suggested someone back off and allow a parent to say their piece. If you have a bitch about someone specific, PM them.
There have also been a few program parents who gained the respect of survivors/posters by giving respect. They didn't come on and attack or troll/stalk people, or take up unnecessary bandwidth with mundane redundancy and irrelevant analogies/information, or misinformation-blatant lies, or derail discussions.
The problem with you, Who, is you give no respect but expect it of others, and I suspect this was at least one factor in your distressed r'ship with your daughter.
Again, you should just shut up and be happy you're even allowed here. WE certainly are not allowed to post on industry forums. Now, what 'fair and balanced' about that???
If there were a vote, the majority would say ban you, not because you support the industry, but because you contribute nothing, just one emotional defense of the industry after the other. :cry2:
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Ninja Academy, would you please, please resize your post so readers don't have to do the horizontal scroll to read this page?? Thanx
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Hey, Who, I see you all the time saying you are "adding balance to the discussion here."
Out of curiousity, can you link me to the pro-program, one-sided sites like StrugglingTeens (there are literally thousands of them) where you post items that reflect programs in poor light to "add balance"? I'd like to see those, since you're on a crusade for "balance" and all.
I'll wait for your response and links. Thanks.
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Hey, Who, I see you all the time saying you are "adding balance to the discussion here."
Out of curiousity, can you link me to the pro-program, one-sided sites like StrugglingTeens (there are literally thousands of them) where you post items that reflect programs in poor light to "add balance"? I'd like to see those, since you're on a crusade for "balance" and all.
I'll wait for your response and links. Thanks.
Devon, glade to hear you are doing well. I will PM you with that information, thanks for asking.
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Hey, Who, I see you all the time saying you are "adding balance to the discussion here."
Out of curiousity, can you link me to the pro-program, one-sided sites like StrugglingTeens (there are literally thousands of them) where you post items that reflect programs in poor light to "add balance"? I'd like to see those, since you're on a crusade for "balance" and all.
I'll wait for your response and links. Thanks.
Devon, glade to hear you are doing well. I will PM you with that information, thanks for asking.
Hello Mr. Who,
I'd like a copy of that memo too please. Feel free to post it here, although I'll accept a PM if that's all you can offer.
Thank you kindly,
Rachael
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Cindy, while I'm flattered to know that Ive owned you so many times that you're basically trained to assume anyone else about to do so is me, this one wasnt.
I generally log in under my username Cindy, I like for you to know it's me holding you accountable once again.
In any event this guest brings up a good point. Can you provide links to opposing discussions where you "add balance"?
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In other, simpler words, Who, you think we'd be a whole lot more effective as advocates if only we would work the Program on each other and control the dialog the way you're accustomed to doing? Good luck with that!
We don’t need to work a program on each other, just not hold up a double standard. If a program parent steps out of line and says something that doesn’t agree with the majority everyone steps in to point it out, which is great, you are all pulling together (checks and balances) lets get an apology etc.
But flip it over and say a poster jumps on a program parent and scuffs them up a little more than they should; no one, typically, steps in to say “Hey you were out of line, how do you know he was a bad parent….”
I've been known to do this... but only because I know that program often paint parents as evil to promote this sort of thing. And all I ever say is "are you sure they knew... because i thought the same and I was wrong"
Or if someone tosses out a half truth to lead a reader to believe something that isn’t true or makes a school look bad, there doesn’t seem to be a rush to correct the accusation.
Because i've so often seen things that sound absurd, actually turn out to be true. I've actually doubted some of the things some Benchmark survivors have told me, only to find out with further research, that what they said is actually true.
All I am saying is if everyone is bent out of shape because of my insult, where are these people when the insult is unfairly directed at the parents, should they be banned? Should they apologize? Should their feet be held to the fire also?
It would add more credability to the people here.
Should they be banned, no. Should they apologize? maybe, it's up to them. Should thier feet be held to the fire also? It depends on who'se holding them. Most people here are not program parents. It's a mob effect. Credability? Are we supposed to tone down what actually happened to make it sound more plausible?
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During the PURE vs. WWASPS trial some of the jurors cried as they watched video clips of the “Box,” where American
children were reportedly hog-tied, hand-cuffed, duct-taped, starved, and slugged by staff.
(http://http://bp1.blogger.com/_6I7WFdsvCY4/Rg_JrF5ofQI/AAAAAAAAACA/hD1mr2dKKAw/s1600/highimpact2.jpg)
When asked about whether using "3 inch tape" or "duct tape" constituted abuse in his opinion, he responded with this - "I, I, uh, I dont know I don't think I'm the right person to answer that question, I really honestly don't dont know that that would be... abuse. I really... (smiling) I know that you'd like to get an answer but I really don't know and I don't know how I feel about it, I uld probably be appropriate. Not at one of our schools but in the public system, and once in a while with my own children I thought, man, that wouldn't be a bad idea." - Ken Kay (President of WWASP)
Photos were shown of children who were locked inside The ISO Box (Isolation Box), a wooden structure no larger than a small closet at WWASP's Paradise Cove program in Western Samoa. Children told of their experiences when they were hog-tied, struck by staff members, and duct-taped during their stay. When an investigation into allegations of child abuse and neglect was initiated, WWASP closed this program.
I was often struck by WWASP's harassment of the parents who testified. For example, Fred Silvester, WWASP’s attorney, was asking Mr. Goodwin, a father whose son was in WWASP’s High Impact, about a comment made having to do with going to look around the "school". In what appeared to me to be a sharp, sarcastic tone, he asks, "And what did you see?" I guess maybe he thought Mr. Goodwin would say, happy kids soaking up knowledge! Mr. Goodwin responded, "Well, I looked in one door and saw a girl sitting with a three inch strip of duct tape across her mouth." Silvester’s back went stiff, as he drummed his fingers on the podium; Then he waves his hand at Mr. Goodwin and snaps, "You just made that up, didn't you?!"
"NO I did NOT just make that up!" was Mr. Goodwin's adamant reply.
It was powerful.
It was during Mr. Goodwin's testimony about High Impact that I learned some things I had not been aware of before. He explained how the staff used cattle prods to terrify the students and keep them in the stress positions. It was either maintain the position, or get a jolt from the cattle prod. They would strike the ground and create a discharged by the kids' heads, so they would know the prod was hot.
Enough controversy, including records supplied to officials that allegedly documented restraints used against children such as handcuffs, pepper spray and duct tape, led the Boonville City Council on Monday to unanimously reject Lichfield's offer.
TheWho: Why do you think this is a big fucking joke?
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It does make you wonder why they keep coming back. TheWho and KarenInDallas are both similar in that the both have severe grandiose delusions about their divine mission in life to "Add balance" to the fornits forum. AntigenGhost is right, once one leaves, another one comes in to take their place. And they think it's some sort of noble cause...are they crazy or something?
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Honestly, I'm not usually a terribly spiteful person, but I hope you land up in some horribly abusive, filthy, cold drafty nursing home one day. You'll be the only one who thinks you're not completely senile, though you'll struggle with doubts about that constantly. You'll piss yourself and be shamed and punished for it. You'll cry, which will give the staff a good laugh. Your kids won't believe you if you try to tell them what's happening because, of course, you're fucking nuts, right? Poor dear old dad, losing his mind that way...
Extremely well put.
Until that time, though. I feel very bad for his "kid". (daughter, right?) Even though I myself have program parents, I would never want to be his son. All of the condescending, belittling, double-talk, mindfuckery is worthy of the program.
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To Ginger,
It's been a few days that I've spent trying to decide whether I can keep posting here or not. I have not yet been the recipient of an attack from the Who, but frankly I don't think I could handle it if my also horrific story was mocked and torn apart as happened to Programmer #A-5. It hurt me a lot just to read Who's response to that. I really think it might be too much to have that happen. So, I've been seriously considering leaving despite how cathartic (love that word) fornits has been for me. And on mulling that over, I don't think I should have to leave. I had to leave my family, friends, school, job, and everything I knew and loved once already because of people like the Who, and I don't want to let that happen again. So, I would like to maybe offer a proposed solution...
The Who is like a plague of sorts (let's say smallpox), spreading all sorts of nastiness and contaminating everything it touches. For some, it makes the body stronger and better able to deal with the next pestilence that comes along. However, for many others, the nasty disease can be too strong and take you out entirely. Perhaps it may be best to quarantine the smallpox, and only those who feel strong enough need venture into dangerous territory.
Enough with the cryptic analogy, can you create a thread to which the Who will be restricted (by IP I'd imagine)? Allow the Who to post, he can copy bits from other threads and go off on rants as much as he so desires, but will be prevented from hurting those of us who are struggling as it is. That way, he still acts as the exemplar of what we're working against, but doesn't destroy fledgling attempts to tell our horrific war stories such as that of Programmer #A-5. That way, people like myself won't have to leave or enable heavy self-censorship to protect against passive-aggressive Who attacks.
Anyway, I do very much appreciate the situation you're in and the difficulty of addressing all the facets to this issue. Whatever you decide, I'm sure it will be well thought out.
Thanks for everything,
Rachael
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Hey, Who, I see you all the time saying you are "adding balance to the discussion here."
Out of curiousity, can you link me to the pro-program, one-sided sites like StrugglingTeens (there are literally thousands of them) where you post items that reflect programs in poor light to "add balance"? I'd like to see those, since you're on a crusade for "balance" and all.
I'll wait for your response and links. Thanks.
Devon, glade to hear you are doing well. I will PM you with that information, thanks for asking.
Can you please just post those links reflecting the "balance" you've added to pro-program sites here? I'm very interested to see these "balancing" posts that have made the dialogue fair at those other sites you post on.
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Hey, Who, I see you all the time saying you are "adding balance to the discussion here."
Out of curiousity, can you link me to the pro-program, one-sided sites like StrugglingTeens (there are literally thousands of them) where you post items that reflect programs in poor light to "add balance"? I'd like to see those, since you're on a crusade for "balance" and all.
I'll wait for your response and links. Thanks.
Devon, glade to hear you are doing well. I will PM you with that information, thanks for asking.
Can you please just post those links reflecting the "balance" you've added to pro-program sites here? I'm very interested to see these "balancing" posts that have made the dialogue fair at those other sites you post on.
No, I dont have any links to other web sites.
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Hey, Who, I see you all the time saying you are "adding balance to the discussion here."
Out of curiousity, can you link me to the pro-program, one-sided sites like StrugglingTeens (there are literally thousands of them) where you post items that reflect programs in poor light to "add balance"? I'd like to see those, since you're on a crusade for "balance" and all.
I'll wait for your response and links. Thanks.
Devon, glade to hear you are doing well. I will PM you with that information, thanks for asking.
Can you please just post those links reflecting the "balance" you've added to pro-program sites here? I'm very interested to see these "balancing" posts that have made the dialogue fair at those other sites you post on.
No, I dont have any links to other web sites.
Nooo... Of course you don't. Your "mission" isn't to "bring balance" to discussions about the industry, it's to single-mindedly promote it!
Truth is, you could give a damn about "balance" or kids for that matter. All you care about is that TBS's make money - as much and as quickly as possible - the kids' treatment and legal rights be damned.
Thanks for clearing that up!
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DJ wrote:
Nooo... Of course you don't. Your "mission" isn't to "bring balance" to discussions about the industry, it's to single-mindedly promote it!
Truth is, you could give a damn about "balance" or kids for that matter. All you care about is that TBS's make money - as much and as quickly as possible - the kids' treatment and legal rights be damned.
Thanks for clearing that up!
Your welcome ! Sounds like you have it all figured out....good for you! Its so discouraging when we all sit here not knowing who the other person is and why they are here. It helps to believe you have the other person figured out. I do the same thing, sometimes, when I am responding to some people.
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So youre acknowledging then you dont bring any sort of balance. Good. Finally.
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To Ginger,
It's been a few days that I've spent trying to decide whether I can keep posting here or not. I have not yet been the recipient of an attack from the Who, but frankly I don't think I could handle it if my also horrific story was mocked and torn apart as happened to Programmer #A-5. It hurt me a lot just to read Who's response to that. I really think it might be too much to have that happen. So, I've been seriously considering leaving despite how cathartic (love that word) fornits has been for me. And on mulling that over, I don't think I should have to leave. I had to leave my family, friends, school, job, and everything I knew and loved once already because of people like the Who, and I don't want to let that happen again. So, I would like to maybe offer a proposed solution...
The Who is like a plague of sorts (let's say smallpox), spreading all sorts of nastiness and contaminating everything it touches. For some, it makes the body stronger and better able to deal with the next pestilence that comes along. However, for many others, the nasty disease can be too strong and take you out entirely. Perhaps it may be best to quarantine the smallpox, and only those who feel strong enough need venture into dangerous territory.
Enough with the cryptic analogy, can you create a thread to which the Who will be restricted (by IP I'd imagine)? Allow the Who to post, he can copy bits from other threads and go off on rants as much as he so desires, but will be prevented from hurting those of us who are struggling as it is. That way, he still acts as the exemplar of what we're working against, but doesn't destroy fledgling attempts to tell our horrific war stories such as that of Programmer #A-5. That way, people like myself won't have to leave or enable heavy self-censorship to protect against passive-aggressive Who attacks.
Anyway, I do very much appreciate the situation you're in and the difficulty of addressing all the facets to this issue. Whatever you decide, I'm sure it will be well thought out.
Thanks for everything,
Rachael
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I'm leaning towards your side as well. The thread title seemed so absurd to me I laughed my ass off, thinking it was a joke.
Ooops, looks like someone else is in trouble also.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=255711#255711 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=255711#255711)
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TheWHo: Take the time to read Racahels post above yours and please understand that you hurt program surviovrs with your callous remarks. You have a billion program owned forums to go to, this is the only one for survivors. So either you don't care about hurting people who were already hurt a million times over, or you do it on purpose without bother, which is it?
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Ooops, looks like someone else is in trouble also.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=255711#255711 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=255711#255711)
Cindy why don't you try something new for a change. Instead of trying to deflect the issue onto someone else or paint someone as being just as bad as you (per your usual MO). Why dont you try being a man and owning up to your comments. Just once Cindy, give it a try.
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TheWHo: Take the time to read Racahels post above yours and please understand that you hurt program surviovrs with your callous remarks. You have a billion program owned forums to go to, this is the only one for survivors. So either you don't care about hurting people who were already hurt a million times over, or you do it on purpose without bother, which is it?
No wait, this is not the only forum. It's the only one I know of that has a completely neutral administrative policy. But there are closed groups and private lists, circles of friends who stay in touch privately, etc. If there's no one you like, start one.
I would hope PA5 does check back once in awhile and take some comfort in seeing Who pilloried and owned for his bullshit. I understand it's disturbing to see a Program drone spew the same old bullshit, but I find it a great comfort to see the vast majority of readers completely disgusted with him over it.
And it demonstrates the glaring flaw in Program believers' thinking; it only makes sense if you discard out of hand virtually all of the facts of the matter.
I do NOT ask or want anybody to post about anything that they don't want bandied about as ammunition in this ongoing war. I hope that PA5 wasn't expecting unanimous support; that they understood going in that the pod people are just as free to spew their bullshit as anybody else who takes a notion to hold forth on their views. If not, I don't know what else I can do except for find a way to make it even more clear that this is an open forum, no protections, no holds barred.
I hope no one continues participating in this out of a sense of obligation. If you're burnt on it or whatever then don't keep it up. There's no requirement for participation except for a willingness to do so. And don't worry about losing the debate by default. Believe me, there is an endless supply of people like us who know the truth and have the impetus to tell it. You're under no obligation to champion the cause or whatever.
But if it's not rewarding for you in some way then please ignore fornits. There's no penalty for bouncing off. Come back around when you are in the mood to pimp-slap the shit out of some pod people. They'll always be around too cause they usually don't have their own kids to talk to. Poor fuckers.
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I think the burden is there whether we like it or not. When a a battle is going on, to simply walk off the battle field, for whatever reason, grants victory to the other side. Since this is a battle over ideas, when program survivors stop posting here, it will appear to outside readers (of which we all know there is many), that the pro-program argument makes sense. That's why I think this forum is somewhat of a big show. That's why I make threads and big deals over statements like TheWho's, which was only one small remark that could of been glanced over, but I wanted to point it out that he hurt me, and probably a lot of other program survivors in saying that things we say are not true, and then he laughs at them.
I am different slightly than Rachael, in the sense hurt causes me to be angry, and only wants to make me fight more to show the world the truth, as I saw it. But this came on slowly, because I started posting here years ago, slowly.. and knew exactly what I was getting into. And here we are ac couple yeras later, and the tide has shifted and there are more program survivors here than programmies. Victory, at the moment, seems to be on the side of survivors. DOes anyone else remember what the WASPS forum was like a couple years ago? It was all program parents. The only way to drive them out was to confront their lies with direct bullshit. Like the Alex SCL thread. That shit was harsh, and the only way to counter their bullshit is to lay yourself on the line and tell everyone the bad stuff htat happened. But like Rachael said, I no longer will post details about my feelings and occurances, escpecially the embarassing moments.
So where does that leave us? Somewhat of a stalemate. Since that information is our only ammunition in this battle, its' a double edged sword since it cuts us more deeply than anyone else when wielding this weapon in self defense. And yes, it is self defense.
We know this forum exists, it exists in our minds, and to know that the truth is being obscured by whordes of programmies lying to everyone with their cult bullshit, it hurts. So , I feel , compelled to post here whether I like it or not. Maybe I am crazy?
I am not faulting you, this forum is great. I wouldnt change it for the world. I am just explaining my feelings about how it definitely is a catch 22, because you don't leave this battle without war wounds.
And because the most effecvtive ammunition, our personal stories, hurt so much to use, sometimnes other tactics like trolling, information gathering, and insults are all that is left. And then what do you have? A place with two warring sides, that appear at a stalemate, desperately trying to convince the crowd they are right. I don't know, it kind of gets old after a while. The fact that truths are subjective can get old fast. It's like having to get up everyday and prove to the world you are who you say you are.
They ask for proof, you wonder where they come up with such a ridiculous statment,, and really, who knows how their minds work. They seem to want to hurt us even more than we just want them to go away, and let our stories maintain the level of truth, for at least one day. One day without someone stoping in for the drive-by-hurting or instult, that can have long lasting effects because it makes you doubt yourself. It's the program all over again.
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TheWHo: Take the time to read Racahels post above yours and please understand that you hurt program surviovrs with your callous remarks. You have a billion program owned forums to go to, this is the only one for survivors. So either you don't care about hurting people who were already hurt a million times over, or you do it on purpose without bother, which is it?
I know what my post did and I apologized for it. The above post was just as bad (and in my opinion worse because everyone applauded after it was said) the only difference is it wasn’t pointed at a survivor. It was a question from a parent with a child in crisis. You think this is funny? You just dismiss this person’s daughter like this. Anorexia isn’t something to joke about. We lose children and adults to this everyday. Your insensitivity amazes me sometimes, everyone one deserves respect from the child who attended a program to the child who did not to the parents who have to make the hard decisions.
This is why the majority of the posters on fornits are survivors, because the parents have to put up with crap like this, double standards. You guys dish it out nice and heavy to some of these parents who come on here and laugh it up like on the Anorexia thread, but a little off color remark or joke at a survivor and the lynch mob comes out and everyone wants to take their ball and go home.
Grow up and realize there are other people struggling besides yourselves.
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Once again Cindy the martyr has taken his usual position on the cross.
As is his custom whenever he gets pinned down by one of his own comments he routinely turns around and says" Nuh uh, look over there at what that guy did, he's worse than me!"
Dont worry about what someone else did, let the people who actually care about these kids worry about that. Worry instead about your own comments.
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I know what my post did and I apologized for it. The above post was just as bad (and in my opinion worse because everyone applauded after it was said) the only difference is it wasn’t pointed at a survivor. It was a question from a parent with a child in crisis. You think this is funny?
I didn't post it or respond to it, no I don't think it was funny but it wasn't directed at one specific person designed to hurt them either. It's kind of like making a generic joke about fat people is different from pointing and laughing at the only fat kid in the room.
You just dismiss this person’s daughter like this.
Wrong person.
Anorexia isn’t something to joke about.
You are right, a friend of mine struggles and I don't laugh at her and say I don't believe her. So why do you do this with program survivors?
We lose children and adults to this everyday. Your insensitivity amazes me sometimes, everyone one deserves respect from the child who attended a program to the child who did not to the parents who have to make the hard decisions.
I doubt that the insensitivity amazes you, because you dish it out with such callousness you show no empathy at all. The only reason you 'took offense' to the anorexia post is to try and make a point and throw this in everyone's faces to try and excuse your own behavior.
This is why the majority of the posters on fornits are survivors, because the parents have to put up with crap like this, double standards.
Double standards? You single out program survivors and call them liars and laugh at their stories and have the balls to say that you deserve respect from survivors? Wow...
You guys dish it out nice and heavy to some of these parents who come on here and laugh it up like on the Anorexia thread,
I never laughed at it, and if a survivor took a post of an anorexia survivor, copy/pasted specific parts of it, added their own snide remarks about how funny it is and they don't believe it I would be just as harsh on them as I am on you.
but a little off color remark or joke at a survivor and the lynch mob comes out and everyone wants to take their ball and go home.
So you actually arguing that two wrongs make a right? Because someone makes fun of anorexics that you should be able to make fun of program survivors and your behavior should be excused? It doesn't work that way.
Grow up and realize there are other people struggling besides yourselves.
When you post a story about your childhood abuse, and let a group of strangers rip you to shreds with those closely guarded details and secrets, then come back and tell us what it feels like. Parents like you have Struggling Teens which is carefully protected. Survivors have nothing of the sort. You willingly come out of your fort to play, and leave when you don't want to play anymore like a small child who gets upset.
You refuse to answer the questions about why you enjoy hurting program survivors. So why do you do it TheWho? If you feel parents deserve a fair shake, do you think it helps your argument by singling out survivors and making fun of them?
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I hope no one continues participating in this out of a sense of obligation. If you're burnt on it or whatever then don't keep it up. There's no requirement for participation except for a willingness to do so. And don't worry about losing the debate by default. Believe me, there is an endless supply of people like us who know the truth and have the impetus to tell it. You're under no obligation to champion the cause or whatever.
Yeah it's easy to get sucked in to feeling like you have to champion the cause and all of that...well said.
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Parents like you have Struggling Teens which is carefully protected. Survivors have nothing of the sort.
www.torturedkids.com (http://www.torturedkids.com)
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I'm leaning towards your side as well. The thread title seemed so absurd to me I laughed my ass off, thinking it was a joke.
Ooops, looks like someone else is in trouble also.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=255711#255711 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=255711#255711)
Is wilderness good option for anarexics?
I am not laughing at a painful story.
I am laughing at a really stupid question!
Yes, but you are laughing at someone who came here to visit and get some information now they are gone. There is no difference
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Oh come on that’s only the tip of the ice berg, lets be honest, no exaggerating here, we need to be credible or no parents will believe us. Here is a more complete account:
No food.
Sexual abused in everyway.
Repeat beatings.
No water.
No bathroom.
No bedding.
Little items I had were stolen, like my sweaty hat and shoes.
My Bible ripped and wrecked.
What little food I got, stolen from me.
Forced to drink cum, piss, eat shit.
Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason. http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21209[/url]
People can decide for themselves if the two posts are equivilent, that's what great about this forum.
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Now compare the who’s post to this:
A parent who was worried about her teenage daughter comes onto fornits looking for help and starts a thread seeking information about treatment options for her daughter. “Try another castle” read the parents plea and responded with:
“……….. I laughed my ass off, thinking it was a joke."
The parent seeking help has never returned again.
I think both are insensitive.
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Copy/pasting a list that a person wrote about the horrible abuse including sexual abuse, and laughing at it is horrible. You can keep trying to deflect and excuse it because other people might post offensive things, but it doesn't change the fact is it horribly offensive, mean spirited, and cruel. TheWho should be ashamed of himself and I am surprised he has the audacity to show himself around here after making such cruel and insensitive remarks, and then laugh at them.
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Oh come on that’s only the tip of the ice berg, lets be honest, no exaggerating here, we need to be credible or no parents will believe us. Here is a more complete account:
No food.
Sexual abused in everyway.
Repeat beatings.
No water.
No bathroom.
No bedding.
Little items I had were stolen, like my sweaty hat and shoes.
My Bible ripped and wrecked.
What little food I got, stolen from me.
Forced to drink cum, piss, eat shit.
Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason. http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21209[/url]
People can decide for themselves if the two posts are equivilent, that's what great about this forum.
Why did he bold those one's and write that duct taping is "his favorite"? Is this a troll or a serious poster because they are disgusting.
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I cant stop thinking about the poor woman who was looking for help for her daughter.
Do you think she will come back after being laughed at like that? It takes a lot of courage to come on a site like this as a parent and ask for advice.
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Now compare the who’s post to this:
A parent who was worried about her teenage daughter comes onto fornits looking for help and starts a thread seeking information about treatment options for her daughter. “Try another castle” read the parents plea and responded with:
“……….. I laughed my ass off, thinking it was a joke."
The parent seeking help has never returned again.
I think both are insensitive.
What? You don't think the parent is insensitive towards the kid? If indeed it's actaully a parent posting that. I have a hard time an actual parent would consider such an option for somebody who is anorexic... Anorexics would love it: Lots of exercise, little food...
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Oh come on that’s only the tip of the ice berg, lets be honest, no exaggerating here, we need to be credible or no parents will believe us. Here is a more complete account:
No food.
Sexual abused in everyway.
Repeat beatings.
No water.
No bathroom.
No bedding.
Little items I had were stolen, like my sweaty hat and shoes.
My Bible ripped and wrecked.
What little food I got, stolen from me.
Forced to drink cum, piss, eat shit.
Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason. http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21209[/url]
People can decide for themselves if the two posts are equivilent, that's what great about this forum.
Why did he bold those one's and write that duct taping is "his favorite"? Is this a troll or a serious poster because they are disgusting.
Why would he take the time to read through such a detailed horrible story and copy paste this list and then take the time to bold individual items like that, and then add his own mean remarks? Why would someone do something like that? I don't think there is an answer. Maybe he is angry at the world and decides to take his anger out on program survivors since his daughter no longer talks to him. I don't think we will ever know the motivation of such individuals who take pleasure in hurting others.
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The parent seeking help has never returned again.
Um, yes, they did. :rofl: Why do you lie so much?
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http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=12820&start=120[/url][/quote]
During the PURE vs. WWASPS trial some of the jurors cried as they watched video clips of the “Box,” where American
children were reportedly hog-tied, hand-cuffed, duct-taped, starved, and slugged by staff.
When asked about whether using "3 inch tape" or "duct tape" constituted abuse in his opinion, he responded with this - "I, I, uh, I dont know I don't think I'm the right person to answer that question, I really honestly don't dont know that that would be... abuse. I really... (smiling) I know that you'd like to get an answer but I really don't know and I don't know how I feel about it, I uld probably be appropriate. Not at one of our schools but in the public system, and once in a while with my own children I thought, man, that wouldn't be a bad idea." - Ken Kay (President of WWASP)
Photos were shown of children who were locked inside The ISO Box (Isolation Box), a wooden structure no larger than a small closet at WWASP's Paradise Cove program in Western Samoa. Children told of their experiences when they were hog-tied, struck by staff members, and duct-taped during their stay. When an investigation into allegations of child abuse and neglect was initiated, WWASP closed this program.
I was often struck by WWASP's harassment of the parents who testified. For example, Fred Silvester, WWASP’s attorney, was asking Mr. Goodwin, a father whose son was in WWASP’s High Impact, about a comment made having to do with going to look around the "school". In what appeared to me to be a sharp, sarcastic tone, he asks, "And what did you see?" I guess maybe he thought Mr. Goodwin would say, happy kids soaking up knowledge! Mr. Goodwin responded, "Well, I looked in one door and saw a girl sitting with a three inch strip of duct tape across her mouth." Silvester’s back went stiff, as he drummed his fingers on the podium; Then he waves his hand at Mr. Goodwin and snaps, "You just made that up, didn't you?!"
"NO I did NOT just make that up!" was Mr. Goodwin's adamant reply.
It was powerful.
It was during Mr. Goodwin's testimony about High Impact that I learned some things I had not been aware of before. He explained how the staff used cattle prods to terrify the students and keep them in the stress positions. It was either maintain the position, or get a jolt from the cattle prod. They would strike the ground and create a discharged by the kids' heads, so they would know the prod was hot.
Enough controversy, including records supplied to officials that allegedly documented restraints used against children such as handcuffs, pepper spray and duct tape, led the Boonville City Council on Monday to unanimously reject Lichfield's offer.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21209 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21209)
No food.
Sexual abused in everyway.
Repeat beatings.
No water.
No bathroom.
No bedding.
Little items I had were stolen, like my sweaty hat and shoes.
My Bible ripped and wrecked.
What little food I got, stolen from me.
Forced to drink cum, piss, eat shit.
Duct-taped from head to toe for no reason. (my favorite)
Had rocks and items thrown at me.
Locked in a hot, wooden box.
Forced to eat paper.
Forced to be naked for a week.
Thrown into the ocean during a typhoon. ( I think he would keep blowing back ,would'nt he?)
Kicked down a hill and had logs thrown on me.
Had a chair slammed into my gut.
Obtained more skin diseases than a POW in Vietnam.
Forced to carry "sandbags" of rocks up and down hills.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=21604&start=10[/url][/quote][/b]
Making fun of abuse victims, all in a day's work for TheWho. :roll: