Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 19, 2007, 07:14:20 PM
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http://www.myspace.com/spacecookies (http://www.myspace.com/spacecookies)
These kids are going out on tour across the country, writing songs about the abusive program they were all incarcerated in together owned by a company called WWASPS which apparently has many of these abusive facilities. It's inspiring to see the youth taking such affirmative and artistic action to combat the propaganda of the industry and the ignorants who permeate most of the discussion.
Props to these kids!
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::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::poke:: ::poke:: ::poke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: :scared:
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How cool are these kids? :rofl:
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Hey, I think it's great... doesn't sound like they've found Fornits yet, maybe I didn't look hard enough.
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::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::poke:: ::poke:: ::poke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: :scared:
Guest, be nice....... I wouldn?t be that hard on them, they seem like good kids and they just want to push back a little , write some songs in protest to the schools and programs they attended. Look at it like graffiti. We didn?t have the internet when we were kids so we couldn?t express ourselves this way, the myspace is great, let them yell and protest, lets not make fun of them. I mean some of the pictures are fake, like that guy in the yellow shirt with that little guy sitting next to him that was cut and pasted in (whats up with that?) They are both wearing $50 shirts, not sure what this is telling us, must be the intake office or something. But they like Floyd and Zepplin, they cant be all bad!!
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I watched a video entitled "dear Mr. President" that was sent in by one of their fans.
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Why isn't that our old friend Sue Scheff on the space cookies friends list?
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Why isn't that our old friend Sue Scheff on the space cookies friends list?
Yup. These boys think she is the cat's meow. Izzahell too, apparently.
In my experience, those who suggest they might want to re-think this alliance are told something along the lines of: fuk off, we think they're wonderful and you suck. We are against ALL programs, but CACA and PURE are great, and you are a lying motherfukken extremist.
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And isn't ISAC a watch dog group? Why would you expect ISAC to be doing anything about WWASP anyway?
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And isn't ISAC a watch dog group? Why would you expect ISAC to be doing anything about WWASP anyway?
ISAC has done plenty about WWASP, and they got suied for their trouble. But who said anything about ISAC? Did I miss something?
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Space cookies Myspace page.. unless they changed it.. I looked at it a couple days ago.
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Space cookies Myspace page.. unless they changed it.. I looked at it a couple days ago.
Not coming to Korea this time.
Maybe at end of April I will come.
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Shit, I'm starting to think SCL is doing a good job on these kids.
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I think you are right. I bet the owners of SCL love to have songs written about them and the girl who committed suicide there. These kids are just a group of regular old programmies!! :roll:
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The anonymous don't like it, TheWho, and the former staff members don't like it. You all have a lot in common it would seem.
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The anonymous don't like it, TheWho, and the former staff members don't like it. You all have a lot in common it would seem.
I'm not sure where I stand with them at the moment. I'd have to hear more about them. My biggest guess is they've been duped by Sue Scheff and its a matter of educating them on her many transgressions. If that is all it is I'd rather not see them wailed on and put on the defensive. The song I listened to was rather catchy.
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Sadly, these kids don't appear to have the insight they need to understand that legitmizing the referral industry is not the way to save children.
It is the gateway to exposing them to the same kind of abuse and exploitation they endured.
Selling kids to programs is abusive, in and of itself. It does not matter if the program is a WWASPS program or not.
You would think WWASPS kids would know that better than most, given the majority of them were victims of WWASPS "referral" program.
Are they so desperate for "support" that they would sacrifice the safety and well-being of children in the name of activism?
The anti-wwasps movement has turned into a sick, twisted way to exploit children and parents and should not be tolerated by anyone who claims to be a humanitarian or activist.
PURE is a referral company. CAICA supports PURE which raises troubling questions about a conflict of interest.
This is not rocket science, space cookies. If you really want to make a statement, then have the courage to stand up for your beliefs and be true to your message. Don't sell your soul and expect anyone to buy your CD's.
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The anonymous don't like it, TheWho, and the former staff members don't like it. You all have a lot in common it would seem.
My biggest guess is they've been duped by Sue Scheff and its a matter of educating them on her many transgressions. If that is all it is I'd rather not see them wailed on and put on the defensive. The song I listened to was rather catchy.
It seems they are learning disabled when it comes to this subject; but I agree with you. I don't want to see them wailed upon either. Still, it doesn't seem right to ignore their passionate alliance with a teen referral business - and one with a history of ignoring allegations of serious abuse. I wouldn't want to be hostile towards these boys, but at the same time, under the circumstances, no way could I promote them. But if they have the love and support of SS and Izzahell, they don't need to worry about "extremist" like me :roll:
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You are discounting all the good work these kids did because of one tiny link on their page. They dont link to Pure, they only link to Caica, so the connection is tenuous at best. You are distorting facts to make these people seem worse than they are. This is another reason program survivors do not post here are align themselves with regulars from this site. They know if they show one iota of positive feelings towards a program, they will be hounded without remorse. there is no loyalty here or in this community. you pounce on each other at the slightest inkling of pro program symptoms, and its getting out of control. this is program like behaviour, just the opposite extreme of the spectrum. in a program if a kid accidentally says he dislikes the program they are punished. if a poster mistakenly posts positive feelings about a program, or GOD FORBID has a small link going to a site that you personally disagree with, you publicly denounce and humiliate them. these kids getting worked over once at SCL is not enough is it? lets fucking humiliate them again. how long until we post their pictures here? their full names? you all know how it goes. mine as well get on with it, eh.
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Don't Space Cookies have SUE SCHEFF liisted as a "friend."
Come on...these are not dumb kids.
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Stop lying guest.
Space Cookies has a link to helpyourteens.com
THAT IS PURE.
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"They dont link to Pure, they only link to Caica."
Wrong -- they most certainly do link to PURE.
Why lie about it? Stand up and be proud.
:rofl:
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Unless they have very recently removed it, they were linking to PURE as well as CACA. AND - they have every right to do so! No argument with that. But - this is going to make them party to the same controversies that constantly swirl around these two groups. If they removed the PURE link then that's something, I guess - but linking to CACA with all CACA's constant promotion of SS and PURE - well you might as well link straight to PURE. The two are so intertwined at this point, you can't separate them. The way I see it, CACA has become nothing more than an extension of PURE.
As for the Space Cookies, If they want to embrace a referral agency as "good and helpful", and deride a watch dog group as "whining, lying extremist" then they are going to find themselves not only talked about, but joked about and laughed at. Sorry - but that's often an unavoidable consequence of willful ignorance.
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Please check out these anti-WWASP websites!
http://www.helpyourteens.com (http://www.helpyourteens.com)
http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org)
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That's what is posted on Space Cookies.
PURE and CAICA.
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My mistake I see the link now. Yeah so obviously this doesnt sit well with the PURE hate club here, thats no surprise. My point is that if you simply emailed them and had a rational discussion, or a website or blog or something explaining why PURE sucks in program survivors to suit their agenda of referral then you might get them to take them down. Going straight to attacking them publicly on a forum is counterproductive. It makes you look crazy and not credible. That is reality of perception, doesn't matter if your argument might be right. Dont let hate for PURE and SS be diverted to those who are also fooled by her. Wernt you both fooled by her once? I assume that is where all this hatred is coming from, am I right? Laughed and ridiculed at, that is a subtle threat that if these kids dont take down the link you will continue with the public humiliation threads. That is a threat, similar to what hate groups do. No open discussion, either you do what we say, or as an organized hate group we will publicly attack you, its nothing new. I am just surprised this is the first tactic used by supposed peopel on the same side. third point, how many program parents listen to heavy metal and hard rock. these songs were written by survivors, for survivors and i doubt they made these for parents who are seeking advice on where to place there kid. 'who killed karly newman' or 'the disguise' or the other song, you woudlnt even understand half of it if you werent at a wwasps facility. i know this post will not change your mind but its not for you, its for the new posters who come here. to save them the trouble of being dragged down into a community of hate that professes the same views as programs, shutting down discussion when something you dont agree with comes up. instead you could put up a website, blog or announce in a million ways how you feel. instead, you attack and blackmail.
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First of all guest, there is NO I Hate Pure or Sue Scheff Club.
That is a myth perpetuated by persons who have a stake in the anti-wwasps movement.
Other than that, your post makes some good points about the target audience of the groups' music.
Survivors who support the referral industry will find themselves one day asking for forgiveness just as their parents have done when they realized how misguided they were to send their child to a hellhole disguised as a "program".
There is no middle ground when it comes right down to it.
The sooner Space Cookies distances themselves from the toxic wasteland of the referral (now called parent advocate) industry, the better.
My suggestion would be to at least put up a link to organizations that give parents insight into the controversy surrounding the referral industry.
Here's one I found:
http://paulareeves.com/Press_Releases/r ... e_zone.htm (http://paulareeves.com/Press_Releases/referral_free_zone.htm)
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///My point is that if you simply emailed them and had a rational discussion, or a website or blog or something explaining why PURE sucks in program survivors to suit their agenda of referral then you might get them to take them down. Going straight to attacking them publicly on a forum is counterproductive. I///
You are making assumptions that have no basis in fact, guest.
Simply email them :roll:
Let me ask: What makes you think people haven't emailed them?
I really don't care what they link to - or not; I'm just saying it will make a difference in how they are viewed by others.
///that is a subtle threat that if these kids don't take down the link you will continue with the public humiliation threads. ///
No - not at all! I was surprised to see them hit Fornits so soon. I thought it would take awhile for people to discover this little controversy. But, here tiz.
People are going to talk about this - and I expect there will be a certain amount of jest at their expense. Its no threat. Its just a fact of life. To tell ya the truth, I have seen no reason to believe they give a ratts ass what a bunch of lying extremist think anyway.
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You are making assumptions that have no basis in fact, guest.
Simply email them
Let me ask: What makes you think people haven't emailed them?
I asked this several times of this poster and no response, so I am left to make assumptions. Did anyone email them and having a conversation with them about this or did it go straight to public attack?
People are going to talk about this - and I expect there will be a certain amount of jest at their expense. Its no threat. Its just a fact of life. To tell ya the truth, I have seen no reason to believe they give a ratts ass what a bunch of lying extremist think anyway.
They would if you didn't start the conversation at the tip of a sword. I understand why program survivors don't want to engage a group of former program parents still caught up in their mission to relieve responsibility from themselves to the ed cons. I do not believe these kids know the full story of SS, and by attacking them they never will. This starts and ends with program parents, big surprise.
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This starts and ends with program parents, big surprise.
This is baloney.
The referral industry couldn't make a dime without the children they send to programs who pay them kickbacks or finder's fees. Yes, it's their parents money but without children, there is no program.
Second, referral agents are sales people. Some are so good they could sell a man a box of tampons and convince him that this was a product he needed.
:flame:
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The referral industry couldn't make a dime without the children they send to programs who pay them kickbacks or finder's fees. Yes, it's their parents money but without children, there is no program.
The referral industry is a service to parents, not to the teen help industry. Program parents like to try and pretend it's the other way around to relieve themselves of responsibility. "Oh well so and so referral agent told me it was ok, don't blame me". Paying someone else to do research that can easily be done on your own is not noble, or in my mind forgivable. See I can be just as extreme as you. But I cut program parents slack for the sake of argument. Should I change tactics and start humiliating BuzzKill openly for being a program parent and utilizing the services of SS?
Second, referral agents are sales people. Some are so good they could sell a man a box of tampons and convince him that this was a product he needed.
:flame:
So then why are you flaming these kids so hardcore, if you know how devious and slick the referral agents are? You can't have it both ways program parents. Either these people are slick salespeople who put one past you for a thousand bucks, or you paid them a service to feel better about a decision you knew was wrong in the first place. You blame these kids for making the same mistake you program parents did, and that is trusting referral agents.
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WWASPS is the granddaddy of the referral business. They started using other parents to recruit kids back in the mid-late 90's.
Scheff was reportedly one of WWASPS most successful recruiters.
Anyone know a kid who was referred by Scheff? Be kinda interesting to hear how they feel about this issue.
The kids who are suing WWASPS, were any of them referred by Scheff, either when she was a WWASPS parent or after she started PURE?
I know the Turley lawsuit names WWASPS referral services like Lifelines, I think it is, but I do not recall whether PURE was also listed, or any other ed con or referral service.
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///Should I change tactics and start humiliating BuzzKill openly for being a program parent and utilizing the services of SS? ///
Excuse me - but I didn't use SS - or ever suggest anyone else do so. And believe me - I've suffered a good deal of abuse on this forum for being a program parent; for ever having trusted SS to do the right thing - for lots of reasons.
///You blame these kids for making the same mistake you program parents did, and that is trusting referral agents.///
Not quite. They can trust anyone they want. They can link to anyone they want. If they want to promote a teen industry sales site, then that's their business. And if others want to laugh at the insane disconnect of them saying on the one hand, we oppose all programs; and on the other, maintaining such devotion to a teen industry referrer - they have that right.
And you keep going on about humiliating them - How? What makes you think they care what anyone on Fornits thinks? They strike me as being very proud of their association with CACA and PURE; and very dismissive of anyone who thinks this strange.
/// I asked this several times of this poster and no response, so I am left to make assumptions. Did anyone email them and having a conversation with them about this or did it go straight to public attack? ///
I really don't see any of this as an attack. It is a public debate. No one has attacked these boys. As for attempts to talk to them about these issues - why not just ask them?
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The anonymous don't like it, TheWho, and the former staff members don't like it. You all have a lot in common it would seem.
My biggest guess is they've been duped by Sue Scheff and its a matter of educating them on her many transgressions. If that is all it is I'd rather not see them wailed on and put on the defensive. The song I listened to was rather catchy.
It seems they are learning disabled when it comes to this subject; but I agree with you. I don't want to see them wailed upon either. Still, it doesn't seem right to ignore their passionate alliance with a teen referral business - and one with a history of ignoring allegations of serious abuse. I wouldn't want to be hostile towards these boys, but at the same time, under the circumstances, no way could I promote them. But if they have the love and support of SS and Izzahell, they don't need to worry about "extremist" like me :roll:
Look these young men and women have certainly earned every right to be angry. Do we even know their motives for dealing with Sue Scheff and Izzahell?
My wildest guess, and I doubt its wrong, is they feel the Suester has the best game in town at the moment as a vehicle for revenge on WWASP.
Can I really blame them?
No. I suppose if I was in their shoes I would want revenge quickly also. Yet its not going to happen through the good offices of Sue and Izzy.
Someone really ought to reach out to these artists and attempt to educate them. As I said before I think they got duped. Young men and women, hell even me at over 30, are prone to rash acts. Lets not get a gravy train going to slam them just yet. Not saying you are buzzkill more for those anons out there.
I'd like to see this young group prosper. They have a medium of music that sends a powerful method.
Lets all do our best to bridge the gap of understanding. It would be a shame to loose this group to the typical chaos of bullshit.
Sides this lot certainly aren't the Kevin August style of WWASP survivors. This group at least doesn't have their own www.teenshelp.us (http://www.teenshelp.us) web page up and running to send kids to MCC to get a good ass paddling for their evil ways, and maybe their mouths washed out with soap.
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What happened to the link to the interview with Sue Scheff's hand? Maybe the space cookies can put a link to that video on their website?
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Found em, right here on Fornits.
Rock on!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74_0g7LbIoU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74_0g7LbIoU)
Sue Scheff's Hand Returns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjDJXKSUso (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjDJXKSUso)
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I don't see the difference between what the Space Cookies are doing and Kevin August. They are all SCL survivors. They are anti-wwasps. They support WWASPS competitors: Kevin through his referrals to Magnolia Christian Center and the Cookies through their referrals to PURE/CAICA.
That being said, the Space Cookies don't need to hitch their wagon to PURE/CAICA. If anything, it would be the other way around.
:rofl:
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This group of young men ain't no Kevin August. Let's avoid smearing them with that odious comparison.
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There is a difference: Kevin August seems to be working on his own. He doesn't seem to have Sue Sue and IZZY guiding and supporing him in his referral endeavors.
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More insight into Isabelle Zehnder and CAICA.
http://www.mommymentors.com/viewtopic.php?t=91 (http://www.mommymentors.com/viewtopic.php?t=91)
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What happened to Sue Scheff on the MOMMY MENTORS site? She was listed at a "Mommy Mentor" and had been yakking on this website. Wonder why she's deleted?