Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: TheWho on March 05, 2007, 12:54:42 PM
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So its all about absolutes with you, all one way or all the other, every parent is the same, all schools are the same , okay.....
So because I don?t believe in unconditional love then all program parents don?t either?.Hmmmm . Why would I predict this conclusion from you DJ?
I may be unique who knows? ?.. I don?t take my daughters love for granted and expect her to love me unconditionally because I am her father, never have never will. If you don?t nurture it and feed it then it could die? you may expect your kids (if you have any) to love you just because you brought them into the world but I just don?t believe this. I feel sorry for you if you take that bond for granted.
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Who said:
I think the bond between a parent and child is built upon a foundation started from infancy and is solidified over time from years of trust and formed from the natural dependency, nurturing and love that occurs and that the home is a safe place to grow, spread your wings, make mistakes, fall and start over. The home should never be a place to be embarrassed or feel ashamed it should be a place to practice life without being judged.
How do you reconcile this with embarrassing and blaming your kid for your failures as a parent then having her shipped off against her will?
Not only did you judge her, you judged her so harshly that you concluded she must be sent away to be raised by others instead of her family. I guess she's not worthy of your love, respect and guidance?
You're telling a lot about yourself today, Who. You make carefully crafted passages that would make the reader believe that you behave in the manner you describe above. In fact, you practice the exact opposite of what you preach. This makes you a "typical" program parent for whom all that matters is "ME, ME, ME!!!"[/quote]
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So because I don?t believe in unconditional love then all program parents don?t either?.Hmmmm . Why would I predict this conclusion from you DJ?
I may be unique who knows? ?.. I don?t take my daughters love for granted and expect her to love me unconditionally because I am her father, never have never will. If you don?t nurture it and feed it then it could die? you may expect your kids (if you have any) to love you just because you brought them into the world but I just don?t believe this. I feel sorry for you if you take that bond for granted.
Let's examine this further, shall we?
Who's kid: "I love you, daddy."
Who: "I would love you, too, if only you... (fill in the blank)"
You're a sick MF'er, Whooter. Most "normal" parents would lay down their life without thought or hesitation for their kid. You'd have to think about it, evaluate, decide if you love her at the moment (depending on her behavior), and then act.
You really are sicker than I had estimated previously. It makes sense if people view you as a sociopath: people (like your kid) are objects not deserving of innate love or respect unless they please you. Fascinating.
I don't take anyone else's love for granted, but I do love my own familiy unconditionally and would without hesitation sacrifice my own life for any one of theirs. Don't feel sorry for me, Whooter, my priorities are intact. You should feel sorry for your kid who isn't worthy of your love unless she earns it. :cry:
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Maybe I can make this much simpler before we get into some more nonsense.
Who, exactly what conditions does your daughter need to meet in order for you to love her?
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Who said:
I think the bond between a parent and child is built upon a foundation started from infancy and is solidified over time from years of trust and formed from the natural dependency, nurturing and love that occurs and that the home is a safe place to grow, spread your wings, make mistakes, fall and start over. The home should never be a place to be embarrassed or feel ashamed it should be a place to practice life without being judged.
How do you reconcile this with embarrassing and blaming your kid for your failures as a parent then having her shipped off against her will?
Not only did you judge her, you judged her so harshly that you concluded she must be sent away to be raised by others instead of her family. I guess she's not worthy of your love, respect and guidance?
You're telling a lot about yourself today, Who. You make carefully crafted passages that would make the reader believe that you behave in the manner you describe above. In fact, you practice the exact opposite of what you preach. This makes you a "typical" program parent for whom all that matters is "ME, ME, ME!!!"
Whoa DJ?.. you get so pissed when someone proves you wrong !! This really gets personal for you?.calling people failed parent?embarrassing, blaming, judgment, shipping kids off?why cant you accept that your way isn?t the only way? No need to ridicule others because they have a different point of view?. I think you reveled a lot today also?.
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I'm not pissed. I'm just taking what you said and asking questions about it. If you don't like what you've said, just say you mispoke and go back and correct it.
What am I wrong about? That you shipped your kid off? Or that you don't always love her? Because I got both statements by quoting you.
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Maybe I can make this much simpler before we get into some more nonsense.
Who, exactly what conditions does your daughter need to meet in order for you to love her?
Well okay...tell me...You go along happily believing you don?t need to put any effort forth because your kids will always love you unconditionally and you don?t plan to intervene or help them, continue to stay uninvolved, if they get off track ?how does this make you a good parent? Hmmmm..... see there are other points of view to consider....
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I'm not pissed. I'm just taking what you said and asking questions about it. If you don't like what you've said, just say you mispoke and go back and correct it.
What am I wrong about? That you shipped your kid off? Or that you don't always love her? Because I got both statements by quoting you.
Ha,Ha, about calling George Millers office...oh we forgot...the bill is dead. oh no!! ..its all the republicans fault.........now who has selective memory?
Only one of us brought the facts to the table as usual.
Here take another look:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738)
http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le (http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le)
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Maybe I can make this much simpler before we get into some more nonsense.
Who, exactly what conditions does your daughter need to meet in order for you to love her?
Well okay...tell me...You go along happily believing you don?t need to put any effort forth because your kids will always love you unconditionally and you don?t plan to intervene or help them, continue to saty uninvolved, if they get off track ?how does this make you a good parent? Hmmmm..... see there are other points of view to consider....
No, I never said anything like this. Let me quote myself for you while I wait for an answer to the question:
Who, exactly what conditions does your daughter need to meet in order for you to love her?
What I said was this:
I don't take anyone else's love for granted, but I do love my own familiy unconditionally and would without hesitation sacrifice my own life for any one of theirs. Don't feel sorry for me, Whooter, my priorities are intact. You should feel sorry for your kid who isn't worthy of your love unless she earns it.
Why would you say that I said or did something else, when it's in plain English right here? "I don't take anyone's love for granted..."
Reading comprehension or memory problems again today, Whooter?
Now, you made the statement that your love for your daughter is conditional. Under what conditions would you love her? Not love her?
Please, I'm very interested in your response to this question. I want to understand what your daughter needs to do for you so that you'll love her.
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I'm not pissed. I'm just taking what you said and asking questions about it. If you don't like what you've said, just say you mispoke and go back and correct it.
What am I wrong about? That you shipped your kid off? Or that you don't always love her? Because I got both statements by quoting you.
Ha,Ha, about calling George Millers office...oh we forgot...the bill is dead. oh no!! ..its all the republicans fault.........now who has selective memory?
Only one of us brought the facts to the table as usual.
Here take another look:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738)
http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le (http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le)
I saw all this. It just says "what is" not "how it got there."
Anyway, I'm waiting for a much more important explanation. I know you like to keep it trivial, but we realy hit on something today and I want to explore it.
What does your daughter have to do for you in order for you to love her?
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So if you believe your kids love you unconditionally then you dont have to put forth any effort and you probably dont....I believe it needs to be worked on every day, its just the way I am. If you feel that is wrong, okay. But I feel sorry for you and your kids if you think that way...Love between a parent and child needs to be continuously nurtured, not assumed or taken for granted.. I am surprised at your position
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So if you believe your kids love you unconditionally then you dont have to put forth any effort and you probably dont....I believe it needs to be worked on every day, its just the way I am. If you feel that is wrong, okay. But I feel sorry for you and your kids if you think that way...Love between a parent and child needs to be continuously nurtured, not assumed or taken for granted.. I am surprised at your position
Again, I never said this. What I said, in fact, was the opposite. Let me break it down for you Barney-style:
I said:
I don't take anyone else's love for granted, but I do love my own familiy unconditionally and would without hesitation sacrifice my own life for any one of theirs.
So, again, what you said about me was another red herring.
However, what I asked you was quoted directly from you. you said you do not believe in unconditional love.
I asked you a simple question that you've now dodged three times by misquoting and mischaracterizing what I said, even though I requoted it twice now.
So, what does your daughter need to do for you in order that you will love her?
I am surprised at your position
Yeah, that's because it's not my position. It's what you just made up to avoid answering the question above.
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Okay, answer me this:
How long can you ignore your kids and not help them in times when they need you most and still expect them to love you unconditionally?
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note that when i said "conditional" i meant "unending" as in "no matter what". others might view "conditional" as meaning "only under certain conditions". (the two are related... but one implies compassion, the other, control.)
What i meant, is that it is possible for a child to hate his/her parent(s).
Hey who: So have you asked your daughter questions about her program recently? She still not talking to you?
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Okay, answer me this:
How long can you ignore your kids and not help them in times when they need you most and still expect them to love you unconditionally?
Me? I don't ignore my kids and I help them with anything they might need, always, without question. But I'm not the focus here. You made a statement that I feel was your most important one to date and I'd like you to answer the natural follow-up:
What conditions does your daughter need to meet in order for you to love her?
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note that when i said "conditional" i meant "unending" as in "no matter what". others might view "conditional" as meaning "only under certain conditions". (the two are related... but one implies compassion, the other, control.)
What i meant, is that it is possible for a child to hate his/her parent(s).
Hey who: So have you asked your daughter questions about her program recently? She still not talking to you?
I understand your statement fully. It usually comes in this form: "I don't like you very much now, but I still love you."
Now, Whooter has stated something entirely different. His daughter is not loved by him unconditionally. He needs to have certain conditions met before he will love her. All I keep asking is what are the conditions your daughter needs to meet so that you will love her?
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note that when i said "conditional" i meant "unending" as in "no matter what". others might view "conditional" as meaning "only under certain conditions". (the two are related... but one implies compassion, the other, control.)
What i meant, is that it is possible for a child to hate his/her parent(s).
Hey who: So have you asked your daughter questions about her program recently? She still not talking to you?
We intermix it into the conversation from time to time, I haven?t asked her specifics in over a month?why does everyone assume kids don?t talk to their parents when they get home? I know it is a teenage thing but she has matured we talk openly about most stuff.
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Great. Do you explain to her that you only love her based on certain conditions? Does she know what the conditions are? If so, can she explain them to us because you won't?
Earlier today TheWho happened to mention that he did not unconditionally love his child - that he doesn't believe in unconditional love from a parent to a child.
I then asked this question:
Maybe I can make this much simpler before we get into some more nonsense.
Who, exactly what conditions does your daughter need to meet in order for you to love her?
I'm just waiting for the answer now.
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I am surprised at this, DJ,lets explore it further, so how long do you expect your kids to love you unconditionally it you continue to ignore them every day when you go home? Forever? Or just until they are old enough to move out?
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I am surprised at this, DJ,lets explore it further, so how long do you expect your kids to love you unconditionally it you continue to ignore them every day when you go home? Forever? Or just until they are old enough to move out?
I repeat...I repeat...Do you have your ears on???
I don't expect unconditional love from anyone, as I stated many times before, by simply quoting myself. I'm surprised you haven't noticed!
Do you want me to quote myself one more time, or are you able to scroll up and look for yourself? I'll repost it for the fourth time if you need me to.
Anyway, we were asking a question of you, I believe:
Earlier today TheWho happened to mention that he did not unconditionally love his child - that he doesn't believe in unconditional love from a parent to a child.
I then asked this question:
Maybe I can make this much simpler before we get into some more nonsense.
Who, exactly what conditions does your daughter need to meet in order for you to love her?
I'm just waiting for the answer now.
So, please answer the question.
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Aw, heck. I know you'll misquote me again if I don't re-re-re-repost my own statement again, so I'll just do it.
I don't take anyone else's love for granted, but I do love my own familiy unconditionally and would without hesitation sacrifice my own life for any one of theirs.
Now, does it now become clear to you? "I don't take anyone else's love for granted..."
Now, for the umpteenth time, what conditions does your daughter need to meet so that you'll love her?
Geez, you'd think this was written in Kanji!
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I am surprised at this, DJ,lets explore it further, so how long do you expect your kids to love you unconditionally it you continue to ignore them every day when you go home? Forever? Or just until they are old enough to move out?
How about if you beat them, would you still expect them to love you?
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It never ceases to amaze me how debates on here always turn personal. WTF does any of this crap between DJ and The Who have to do with the original post? I say give them their own forum and let them go one on one without any interference from any other posters so we can end this bullshit once and for all. ::bangin::
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I am surprised at this, DJ,lets explore it further, so how long do you expect your kids to love you unconditionally it you continue to ignore them every day when you go home? Forever? Or just until they are old enough to move out?
How about if you beat them, would you still expect them to love you?
Can you really not read this? "One in ten adults in America are functionally illiterate..." Are you one of 'em, Who?
This is what I said:
Dysfunction Junction wrote:
I don't take anyone else's love for granted, but I do love my own familiy unconditionally and would without hesitation sacrifice my own life for any one of theirs.
Tell me which part of this you don't understand and I'll help you to understand. I think it's as plain as it will get. It's already broken down Barney style. How much more can I explain this simple declarative?
Dysfunction Junction wrote:
I don't take anyone else's love for granted, but I do love my own familiy unconditionally and would without hesitation sacrifice my own life for any one of theirs.
Now, you're looking foolish repeating this over and again, but I've been patient - holding your hand, helping you read, explaining (just like I would for my child!).
Can you please answer the question now?
What conditions must your daughter meet in order for her father to love her?
You said it, now explain it. I've explained one simple sentence at least five times in this thread. Now it's your turn to explain.
What conditions must your daughter meet in order for her father to love her?
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Cindy when did DJ claim to ignore his kids?
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It never ceases to amaze me how debates on here always turn personal. WTF does any of this crap between DJ and The Who have to do with the original post? I say give them their own forum and let them go one on one without any interference from any other posters so we can end this bullshit once and for all. ::bangin::
Whooter has his own thread, but he like to pollute at random. I'd stop if he just answered the question. He stated earlier in the thread that he doesn't love his daughter unconditionally. Now I just want to know under what conditions would he choose to love her. It ain't that deep. And, for me, it's not personal, just interesting. I'd like to know how Who places conditions on his daughter in order for him to love her.
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Cindy when did DJ claim to ignore his kids?
Never. It's a red herring to avoid the question I've been asking all day.
Who, what conditions must your daughter meet in order for her father to love her?
Whooter is just a tad bit upset with himself for letting his true thoughts slip out and getting questioned on them. I told him waaaaaaay back in the thread that idf he misspoke about not loving his child, then he should just correct it and we'll move on. Instead he has just tried to shift the focus onto me, the guy who does love his kids and has painted himself into a tiny little corner. Now he's backpeddling furiously.
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Well, sounds like an impasse, I was just curious about this:
And I am interested in how DJ feels he can expect his kids to love him unconditionally, even if he ignores them for long periods of time?just curious on who taught him this is a good thing.
But I can let it go, lets get back to the topic and stop wasting space.
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Riiight an impasse.
Any chance on you providing a basis for the claim that he ignores his kids?
Or maybe even answering his question regarding what conditions your daughter must meet in order to recieve your love?
Then again if you dont have answers to those questions and are too ashamed to continue we can move on if you like.
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Well, sounds like an impasse, I was just curious about this:
And I am interested in how DJ feels he can expect his kids to love him unconditionally, even if he ignores them for long periods of time?just curious on who taught him this is a good thing.
But I can let it go, lets get back to the topic and stop wasting space.
DJ doesn't expect unconditional love, as DJ has stated over and over.
Whooter only loves his daughter based on certain conditions and won't explain those conditions.
Whooter keeps misquoting DJ even though DJ dutifully reposts his original statement like this:
Dysfunction Junction wrote:
I don't take anyone else's love for granted, but I do love my own familiy unconditionally and would without hesitation sacrifice my own life for any one of theirs.
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
Can you read it now, Whooter?
Now, what must your kid do in order for you to love her?
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Its getting there, DJ, now this time place your left hand over your heart and jump up and down and yell it out again 10 times... and then it will come true.. I promise
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Its getting there, DJ, now this time place your left hand over your heart and jump up and down and yell it out again 10 times... and then it will come true.. I promise
Translation: "I've made myself look so utterly ridiculous all day long. No reason to stop now. My reputation and credibility couldn't be any worse, so what the fuck!"
Classic.
Now, why don't you love your kid unconditionally? What does she have to do in order for you to love her?
You said you don't always love her - your words, not mine. When do you stop loving her and why? When do you start loving her and why?
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Its getting there, DJ, now this time place your left hand over your heart and jump up and down and yell it out again 10 times... and then it will come true.. I promise
Translation: "I've made myself look so utterly ridiculous all day long. No reason to stop now. My reputation and credibility couldn't be any worse, so what the fuck!"
Classic.
Now, why don't you love your kid unconditionally? What does she have to do in order for you to love her?
You said you don't always love her - your words, not mine. When do you stop loving her and why? When do you start loving her and why?
Ha,Ha,...And I am interested in how DJ feels he can expect his kids to love him unconditionally, even if he ignores them for long periods of time?just curious on who taught him this is a good thing.
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Isnt this silly!!
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Youre the one keeping it going. Just answer the question and we can all move on.
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There's a difference here, Who. What you're saying about me is just what you made up (as usual). And, I've quoted my OP at least 5 times for you to read and understand. Inever said anything remotley resembling what you say I did and it's readily provable.
What I'm saying about you is a quote directly from you. You said you don't always love your kid. I want to know why and what she needs to do for you to love her. It's not that deep.
Why won't you answer the question? why do you keep acting like a small child instead of a grown up?
What does she have to do in order for you to love her?
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Why not answer?
Ha,Ha,...And I am interested in how DJ feels he can expect his kids to love him unconditionally, even if he ignores them for long periods of time?just curious on who taught him this is a good thing.
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Why not answer?
Ha,Ha,...And I am interested in how DJ feels he can expect his kids to love him unconditionally, even if he ignores them for long periods of time?just curious on who taught him this is a good thing.
One, I do not expect anything of the sort, as I have stated many times previously, nor do I ignore children, not even recalcitrant babies like you.
Now, What does she have to do in order for you to love her?
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If nobody replies, THE TROLL DIES!
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Well, sounds like an impasse, I was just curious about this:
And I am interested in how DJ feels he can expect his kids to love him unconditionally, even if he ignores them for long periods of time?just curious on who taught him this is a good thing.
But I can let it go, lets get back to the topic and stop wasting space.
DJ doesn't expect unconditional love, as DJ has stated over and over.
Whooter only loves his daughter based on certain conditions and won't explain those conditions.
Whooter keeps misquoting DJ even though DJ dutifully reposts his original statement like this:
Dysfunction Junction wrote:
I don't take anyone else's love for granted, but I do love my own familiy unconditionally and would without hesitation sacrifice my own life for any one of theirs.
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
Can you read it now, Whooter?
Now, what must your kid do in order for you to love her?
this sums up the who's nonsense for the day. he keeps misquoting and saying things that nobody else said and he never answers the simple questio nof why he chooses not to love his daughter. it's very sad to think that this poor girl was likely treated in the same manner at home that the who treats people here. i feel bad for her, but not having someone like the who love you probably isn't that bad of a deal anyway.
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This is the silliest argument I have been in... and I have posted in some beauties.
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Then just answer the questions and we can all get back to legitmate discussions.
If you hadnt uttered your nonsense to begin with the conversation would have never become so pointless. Or at the very least if youd bothered trying to explain yourself rather simply trolling it as per your usual custom.
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it's not an argument. you want to make it one, but it isn't. you said that you have conditions that your daughter has to meet for you to love her and you were, naturally, asked what they are. since then you've just been adding responses to try to bury your own childishness, but people won't let you off on it anymore, the trolling. why do you endlessly troll instead of just answering the question about not loving your daughter. you're the one who said it, nobody held a gun to your head. now ppl want to know why you said it and to hear what your daughter has to do in order for you to love her. just explain yourself or it will never go away. but you probably will just keep flooding to try to keep some cover. nobody's buying it though so you might as well just expalin why you'd say such a thing in the first place and then not retract it when asked if you wanted to retract it. so you obviously stand behind your statement. why don't you love your daughter unconditionally?
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The one lesson I keep learning over and over again:
If you catch DJ in a lie, prove him wrong or disagree with him you are in for a very long day of personal attacks as he throws his fit....I know it is coming but I cant just let the lies sit....sorry everyone had to endure this... and for the wasted space.
Hopefully we will be back on topic soon.
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just as soon as you answer the question you've carefully dodged for the past eight hours we'll get right back on topic. right now the topic is your statement that you place conditions on loving your child. that's very sick. can you explain why you do this?
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just as soon as you answer the question you've carefully dodged for the past eight hours we'll get right back on topic. right now the topic is your statement that you place conditions on loving your child. that's very sick. can you explain why you do this?
I think everyone knows by now I am not going to respond to it, but there are a few who keep holding on to the idea....
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Then why did you bring it up to begin with?
If you dont want people badgering you about your comments, dont make comments you arent willing to back up. Simple concept.
And if you are going to be a coward about it and refuse to back up your own comments dont blame it on others. Step up to the plate and own up to your own weakness and fear, dont blame it on DJ. Espically since youve neither caught him in a lie nor proven him wrong on anything.
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Okay, lets move on...this isnt fair to the other people trying to follow the thread...it is what it is.
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Well, here's a copy, before it gets "marked-up".
What's all the fuss by the opposition? This bill doesn't even make state licensing/regulation of domestic programs mandatory. It only allows for grants to create regulations/monitoring of "treatment services for children with emotional, psychological, developmental, or behavioral dysfunctions, impairments, or chemical dependencies". Participation appears to be voluntary.
All the language about fines for operating without a license (if a state chooses to license/regulation programs), abuse/neglect, etc. are standard and common to all regulations I've read.
What specifically about this bill would have a devastating effect on the industry?
H.R. 1738 [109th]: End Institutionalized Abuse Against Children Act of 2005
HR 1738 IH
109th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 1738
To assure the safety of American children in foreign-based and domestic institutions, and for other purposes.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
April 20, 2005
Mr. GEORGE MILLER of California (for himself, Mr. KILDEE, Mr. OWENS, Mr. MCDERMOTT, and Mr. VAN HOLLEN) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Education and the Workforce, and in addition to the Committee on International Relations, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned
----------------------------------------------------------------
A BILL
To assure the safety of American children in foreign-based and domestic institutions, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `End Institutionalized Abuse Against Children Act of 2005'.
SEC. 2. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATIONS.
(a) In General- In order to assure the safety and welfare of American children residing in foreign-based institutions, the Attorney General shall seek the cooperation of appropriate foreign authorities in order to investigate such facilities or institutions periodically. Such an investigation shall include a determination of the institution's compliance with any local safety, health, sanitation and educational laws and regulations, including all licensing requirements applicable to the staff of the institution and compliance with this section. The Attorney General shall seek the cooperation of appropriate foreign authorities to remedy any threat to the safety or welfare of those children, discovered through such an investigation.
(b) Rules and Enforcement- (1) The Attorney General shall make rules to protect the safety and wellbeing of American children who are kept in a foreign based institution for purposes of behavior modification.
(2) Whoever, being a United States citizen or national, or other private entity organized under the laws of the United States or of any State or political subdivision of the United States, violates a rule made under this subsection shall be subject to a civil penalty not to exceed $50,000.
(c) Definitions- As used in this section--
(1) the term `foreign-based institution' means any facility or institution--
(A) owned, operated, or managed by a United States citizen or other private entity organized under the laws of the United States; and
(B) for persons, including persons who are residing in such facility or institution, for purposes of receiving care or treatment or behavior modification; and
(2) the term `American children' means American citizens or nationals 18 years of age or younger.
SEC. 3. AMENDMENTS TO DEPARTMENT OF STATE'S COUNTRY REPORTS ON HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICES.
(a) Part I of Foreign Assistance Act of 1961- Section 116 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2151n) is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(g)(1) The report required by subsection (d) shall include, wherever applicable, a description of the nature and extent of child abuse or human rights violations against persons who are 18 years of age or younger at institutions described in paragraph (2) that are located in each foreign country.
`(2) An institution referred to in paragraph (1) is a facility or institution--
`(A) owned, operated, or managed by a United States citizen or other private entity organized under the laws of the United States; and
`(B) for persons, including persons who are residing in such facility or institution, for purposes of receiving care or treatment or behavior modification.'.
(b) Part II of Foreign Assistance Act of 1961- Section 502B of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2304) is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(i)(1) The report required by subsection (b) shall include, wherever applicable, a description of the nature and extent of child abuse or human rights violations against persons who are 18 years of age or younger at institutions described in paragraph (2) that are located in each foreign country.
`(2) An institution referred to in paragraph (1) is a facility or institution--
`(A) owned, operated, or managed by a United States citizen or other private entity organized under the laws of the United States; and
`(B) for persons, including persons who are residing in such facility or institution, for purposes of receiving care or treatment or behavior modification.'.
SEC. 4. GRANTS TO SUPPORT INSPECTIONS OF CHILD RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT FACILITIES.
(a) In General- The Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (42 U.S.C. 5101 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following new title:
`TITLE III--GRANTS TO STATES TO SUPPORT INSPECTIONS OF CHILD RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT FACILITIES
`SEC. 301. GRANTS TO STATES.
`The Secretary is authorized to make grants to States to support inspections of child residential treatment facilities.
`SEC. 302. APPLICATION.
`The Secretary may not make a grant to a State under section 301 unless the State submits to the Secretary an application for the grant at such time, in such form and manner, and containing such information as the Secretary may reasonably require.
`SEC. 303. ELIGIBILITY.
`(a) In General- The Secretary may not make a grant to a State under section 301 unless the State has in effect laws to require the licensing of child residential treatment facilities in accordance with the requirements of subsection (b) and the State is enforcing such State laws in accordance with the requirements of subsection (c).
`(b) Licensing Requirements- The licensing requirements referred to in subsection (a) are the following:
`(1) The State requires any person who operates a child residential treatment facility to be issued a license for the operation of the facility, and the license is in effect.
`(2) The facility meets applicable standards of the State for the provision of treatment services for children with emotional, psychological, developmental, or behavioral dysfunctions, impairments, or chemical dependencies.
`(3) In the case of each child who is a resident of the facility and whose domicile is another State, the facility meets the standards of such other State for the operation of such a facility, including any licensing standards.
`(4) With respect to State law that prohibits the physical or mental abuse of children and the neglect of children, the law of the State in which the facility is located applies to the facility standards for the care of children who are residents of the facility, including enforcement standards, that are equivalent to the standards applied by the State to parents or legal guardians.
`(5) The State requires periodic, unannounced inspections of the facility to determine compliance with applicable law, including law regarding the licensing of health professionals and law regarding the standards referred to in paragraph (4).
`(c) Enforcement Requirements- The enforcement requirements referred to in subsection (a) are the following:
`(1) IN GENERAL-
`(A) CIVIL PENALTY- A person who operates a child residential treatment facility in violation of the requirements under subsection (b) is subject to a civil penalty of $250 per day until the violation is corrected, except that the number of days for which the penalty is assessed may not exceed 60 days.
`(B) ORDER TO TERMINATE OPERATIONS- With respect to a violation of the requirements under subsection (b), if a civil penalty under subparagraph (A) for the violation is assessed for 60 days, the State orders that the child residential treatment facility involved terminate all operations.
`(2) ABUSE OR NEGLECT-
`(A) CIVIL PENALTY- If a child residential treatment facility engages in the abuse or neglect of a child who is a resident of the facility, each person who owns or operates the facility, and each of the officers, employees, or contractors thereof who engaged in the abuse or neglect, is subject to a civil penalty for each such violation in an amount determined by the State, but not less than $20,000 for all violations adjudicated in a single proceeding.
`(B) CRIMINAL PENALTY- If a child residential treatment facility engages in the abuse or neglect of a child who is a resident of the facility, each person who owns or operates the facility, and each of the officers, employees, or contractors thereof who engaged in the abuse or neglect, shall be fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
`(C) ABUSE OR NEGLECT- For purposes of subparagraphs (A) and (B), the term `abuse or neglect', with respect to a child, means a knowing act or omission that the officer, employee, or contractor involved knows or should know will result in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation, or will present an imminent risk of serious harm.
`SEC. 304. USE OF FUNDS.
`A State that receives a grant under section 301 shall use amounts under the grant to--
`(1) hire and train individuals who have appropriate expertise in the health profession, including the mental health profession, to carry out periodic, unannounced inspections of child residential treatment facilities in accordance with section 303(b)(5); and
`(2) collect and maintain data from the inspections of such child residential treatment facilities to be included in the report required by section 306.
`SEC. 305. MAINTENANCE OF EFFORT.
`A State that receives a grant under section 301 shall use amounts under the grant only to supplement the level of non-Federal funds that, in the absence of amounts under the grant, would be expended for activities authorized under the grant, and not to supplant those non-Federal funds.
`SEC. 306. REPORT.
`The Secretary may not make a grant to a State under section 301 unless the State agrees that it will submit to the Secretary for each fiscal year for which it receives a grant under such section a report that contains such information as the Secretary may reasonably require, including a detailed description of the number of child residential treatment facilities located in the State, the number of children residing at such facilities, the State domicile of each child prior to entry at such a facility, and the age, gender, and disability (if any) of each child at such a facility.
`SEC. 307. DEFINITIONS.
`In this title:
`(1) CHILD- The term `child' means an individual 18 years of age or younger.
`(2) CHILD RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT FACILITY; FACILITY- The term `child residential treatment facility' or `facility' means a facility that--
`(A) provides a 24-hour group living environment for one or more children who are unrelated to the owner or operator of the facility; and
`(B) offers for the children room or board and specialized treatment, behavior modification, rehabilitation, discipline, emotional growth or rehabilitation services for youths with emotional, psychological, developmental, or behavioral dysfunctions, impairments, or chemical dependencies.
`(3) SECRETARY- The term `Secretary' means the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
`(4) STATE- The term `State' means each of the several States, the District of Columbia, and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.
`SEC. 308. AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.
`There are authorized to be appropriated to carry out this title $50,000,000 for each of the fiscal years 2006 and 2007.'.
(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of contents of the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (42 U.S.C. 5101 note) is amended by adding at the end the following:
`TITLE III--GRANTS TO STATES TO SUPPORT INSPECTIONS OF CHILD RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT FACILITIES
`Sec. 301. Grants to States.
`Sec. 302. Application.
`Sec. 303. Eligibility.
`Sec. 304. Use of funds.
`Sec. 305. Maintenance of effort.
`Sec. 306. Report.
`Sec. 307. Definitions.
`Sec. 308. Authorization of appropriations.'.
Cosponsors
Rep. Dale Kildee [D-MI]
Rep. James McDermott [D-WA]
Rep. Major Owens [D-NY]
Rep. Fortney Stark [D-CA]
Rep. Christopher Van Hollen [D-MD]
Rep. Nydia Velázquez [D-NY]
Rep. Lynn Woolsey [D-CA]
Rep. David Wu [D-OR]
We were looking at a copy of the petition before it got marked up....
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Okay, lets move on...this isnt fair to the other people trying to follow the thread...it is what it is.
It is what it is? Gosh where have we all heard that line before.
Cindy youve embarrassed yourself and tried everything in your power to cover it up. You tried making up things concerning other posters in the hopes the focus would be moved onto them, youve tried changing the subject, you've tried playing the victim, et cet.
All you had to do was back up your own comments when you made them and pages and pages of wasted and pointless conversation never would have occured.
Its all on you buddy.
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Okay, lets look at the post that has DJ and Bob, so upset. This was a post I made in response to Psy as he mentioned
Psy wrote:
?There are certain things that can completely sever the ties of love between parent and child. There is no such thing as "unconditional". Fool yourself all you wish, but if I were you, I would at least ask those questions you are afraid to, and beg for the forgiveness that you do not deserve.
I responded:
That is pretty intense and it is a good point,psy. Parents should keep a thumb on the pulse of their child and listen to how they are doing. If they sound distressed when they call you should ask to have another conference with them to insure that they are okay. I remember on a particular occasion, after my daughter ran away , that she sounded distressed and we scheduled another call back about an hour later and we talked it thru and spoke for about 45 minutes. She was struggling with a balance between her school work and what they expected to do during her off time which didn?t allow for her studies. She wasn?t use to working that hard. My daughter doesn?t thank me for sending her there but she understands that it was good for her (she wouldn?t want to do it over again, though).
I am not a big believer in ?unconditional love?. I think the bond between a parent and child is built upon a foundation started from infancy and is solidified over time from years of trust and formed from the natural dependency, nurturing and love that occurs and that the home is a safe place to grow, spread your wings, make mistakes, fall and start over. The home should never be a place to be embarrassed or feel ashamed it should be a place to practice life without being judged. If this process is interrupted or threatened the parent is the one who needs to step in and right its course.
If I asked my daughter tomorrow where she would rather be if there was trouble in her life I know she would chose home, because that is where her family is and that is where she feels safe. This is the place she comes to when she needs to sort out answers or scream at someone or ask for advice or feel safe.
Unconditional love, no it isn?t?but we continue to work on it every day and the working at it is what love is and it keeps us together.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... 21f#249509 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249509&sid=fcbda67a7059ad6dda4c26d159b0d21f#249509)
I think many of you know me as one who doesn?t believe in absolutes. I don?t believe all TBS?s are bad and I don?t believe they are all good either. I don?t believe anything is unconditional (sorry, just my nature). I think any bond can be broken if it is not cared for, is neglected, abused enough it will fail. I don?t think anyone will love you (unconditionally) ?no matter what? under all circumstances.
Sorry if my beliefs offend others
Hope this calms people down and we can continue.
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No one is upset by this Cindy, we were simply looking for you to explain yourself and tell us what conditions your daughter must meet in order to recieve your love.
An interesting side note if youre willing to discuss it, did your own parents hate you? Was your love with them conditional?
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Yeah...good move (Deborah I think) to break it off, the thread sort of got hijacked by DJ, didnt realize it went on for so many pages after that.
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I cant even begin to understand how a parent cant love their child unconditionally. Why would you have a child if you are not prepared to do this. It is pretty much a given that all families are disfunctional but even with this in mind the concept of conditional love from a parent is revolting.
No wonder these bizarre places thrive.
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So, here's where we're at:
TheWho said:
"I don't believe in unconditional love"
If you don't believe in unconditional love, then therefore you must believe in conditional love or that love doewsn't exist. TheWho went on to state that he does believe love exists, but it is conditional.
TheWho was then asked if love is conditional, what are the conditions he requires to love his daughter, since he already stated he doesn't love her unconditionally.
It's a logical progression and completely sound. TheWho is trying to back out of his statement now, but he did say it, several times in fact.
Here's the argument:
1. Love exists.
2. Love is not unconditional.
3. Therefore love is conditional.
4. Love is given to individuals based on certain conditions.
5. Therefore TheWho has conditions that people must meet in order to gain his love.
6. Therefore his daughter would need to meet those conditions.
7. Therefore TheWho does not unconditionally love his daughter.
This begs the question "Under which conditions does TheWho love his child, and under which conditions does he not?"
It's really a simple question to answer.
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Yeah...good move (Deborah I think) to break it off, the thread sort of got hijacked by DJ, didnt realize it went on for so many pages after that.
Well, not really. You actually made a very big statement of your own volition. then you got embarrassed because you were caight in another bad spot so you went about trolling the thread to avoid accounting for your statement.
This is a program tactic straight from the book: demand vehemently that everyone accept accountabiliity for what they do and say, unless you're a staff member in which case you simply refuse to take responsibility for your actions and words and blame the child for the problem that ensues.
This is what you've done in this thread, Who. You stuck that foot in your mouth again and now you'll do and say anything to avoid responsibility for it, just like the way you blamed your daughter for your family problems and abdicated responsibility for the situation and sent her to be programmed into something you felt worthy of your love.
You wanted a stepford child and you paid big bucks for it. Then it all blew up in your face when your daughter came home and cut you out of her life. And who could blame her?
You keep saying you "tried everything" at home, but just yesterday you admitted you never even went to family therapy, you sent your daughter to therapy, alone, because she was the problem in your eyes, and when that, unsurprisingly, didn't "work," you sent her away, alone, to a program, for two years to be "fixed."
Your whole life with your own child is composed of excuses, copouts and conditional love. Naturally, she has rejected you, as she should reject anyone who behaves as you do. Good for her.
You are one very, very sad and very sick person, Who. If I were you I wouldn't want to talk about it either. :cry: :oops:
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Listen. For once i aggree with the who. Love is conditional. I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them. It is possible for love to end.
But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control. The only difference is the condition under which love ends.
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I cant even begin to understand how a parent cant love their child unconditionally. Why would you have a child if you are not prepared to do this. It is pretty much a given that all families are disfunctional but even with this in mind the concept of conditional love from a parent is revolting.
No wonder these bizarre places thrive.
Probably something he heard in a parent seminar. Thought it sounded good and adopted without contemplating what it actually means. And then maybe his love is conditional, so the program was a good fit.
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Listen. For once i aggree with the who. Love is conditional. I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them. It is possible for love to end.
But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control. The only difference is the condition under which love ends.
We were talking about a parent's love for their child, not the other way around.
Of course, people with serious mental defects, like TheWho or some other program parents (not all - some were duped) aren't capable of giving of themselves. What they do they do for their own benefit, not the child's. People likeTheWho send their kids to programs because they just don't like their kids and the kids therefore are not worthy of their love. He said it flat out - he does not love his daughter unless she meets certain conditions. It's an illness, not the norm.
A parent's unconditional love for their child is the most natural thing in the world. Only very selfish people with serious mental defects believe otherwise, like TheWho.
It's unnatural for a parent to love their child based on conditions.
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It is possible for love to end.
Yes, this is true. But in order for it to end, it must have existed prior. And it is innate.
But, of course, just like in a program, people can be conditioned to feel otherwise, as TheWho's daughter learned at ASR. This is why she rejects her father now. He and the program are one in the same - all value of the child is derived from compliance and pleasing the adults, not from love. It's good though that she learns at an early age so as not to handle her own problems like her father did, by blaming the child.
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Yeah...good move (Deborah I think) to break it off, the thread sort of got hijacked by DJ, didnt realize it went on for so many pages after that.
Well, not really. You actually made a very big statement of your own volition. then you got embarrassed because you were caight in another bad spot so you went about trolling the thread to avoid accounting for your statement.
This is a program tactic straight from the book: demand vehemently that everyone accept accountabiliity for what they do and say, unless you're a staff member in which case you simply refuse to take responsibility for your actions and words and blame the child for the problem that ensues.
This is what you've done in this thread, Who. You stuck that foot in your mouth again and now you'll do and say anything to avoid responsibility for it, just like the way you blamed your daughter for your family problems and abdicated responsibility for the situation and sent her to be programmed into something you felt worthy of your love.
You wanted a stepford child and you paid big bucks for it. Then it all blew up in your face when your daughter came home and cut you out of her life. And who could blame her?
You keep saying you "tried everything" at home, but just yesterday you admitted you never even went to family therapy, you sent your daughter to therapy, alone, because she was the problem in your eyes, and when that, unsurprisingly, didn't "work," you sent her away, alone, to a program, for two years to be "fixed."
Your whole life with your own child is composed of excuses, copouts and conditional love. Naturally, she has rejected you, as she should reject anyone who behaves as you do. Good for her.
You are one very, very sad and very sick person, Who. If I were you I wouldn't want to talk about it either. :cry: :oops:
"I was thinking more of a family therapist who could help with conflict resolution, locally. A trained therapist, mom, dad and child in one room. My daughter was being treated but the rest of us were not.
Hmmmmm.....tried "everything," huh? You mean you "tried everything that didn't require any effort from you."
It's all very clear now.
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So, here's where we're at:
TheWho said:
"I don't believe in unconditional love"
If you don't believe in unconditional love, then therefore you must believe in conditional love or that love doewsn't exist. TheWho went on to state that he does believe love exists, but it is conditional.
TheWho was then asked if love is conditional, what are the conditions he requires to love his daughter, since he already stated he doesn't love her unconditionally.
It's a logical progression and completely sound. TheWho is trying to back out of his statement now, but he did say it, several times in fact.
Here's the argument:
1. Love exists.
2. Love is not unconditional.
3. Therefore love is conditional.
4. Love is given to individuals based on certain conditions.
5. Therefore TheWho has conditions that people must meet in order to gain his love.
6. Therefore his daughter would need to meet those conditions.
7. Therefore TheWho does not unconditionally love his daughter.
This begs the question "Under which conditions does TheWho love his child, and under which conditions does he not?"
It's really a simple question to answer.
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Listen. For once i aggree with the who. Love is conditional. I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them. It is possible for love to end.
But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control. The only difference is the condition under which love ends.
Depends on how you define love, so everyone will have their own interpretation, but for me.... unconditional love means that no matter what you think, say, do, I will always love you. Even if your behavior scares the shit out of me. Even if you say rude, mean things. Even when you scream that you hate me. I will continue to love you. I may not like your behavior. I may even 'hate' your behavior. I may draw a firm line with you. I may even get very angry with you. But, I won't stop loving you.
I think it is different for parent and child due to age/development. But, I do believe that kids always love their parents, but when their parent doesn't exhibit unconditional love, there can be astrangement. If the parent changes, the child will again feel the love that was occluded by resentment.
I like this take on it:
Unconditional Love
by Barry Philipp
"Perfect love cast out fear."
- 1 John 4:18
Raising a child with unconditional love means that no fear is created in parent-child interactions. To love unconditionally simply means that parents accept their children completely and without restrictions or stipulations. There is no spoken (or unspoken) message causing the child to think he has to be something other than what he is in order to be loved. The need for unconditional love begins at conception.
The child needs to experience total acceptance from both parents, but primarily from the mother. This means that all physical features are accepted "as is". Unfortunately, this is not always what happens. There can be something about their child that does not meet parents' expectations, such as a funny-looking nose or ears, or unattractive teeth. In these cases, the parents' uneasiness may trigger "innocent" remarks about a child's features, causing the child to realize that his or her acceptance is conditional. Since the child can do little about his body, he experiences the fear of rejection. The basis of this conditional acceptance is perhaps due to the fact that the parents were not accepted unconditionally in their own childhood, which causes their fear to surface in interactions with their children.
Not only should the physical nature of the child be totally accepted, but what the child says, thinks, dreams or feels must be heard, honored and respected. The old philosophy that a child should be "seen but not heard" gave some parents the illusion that children would then develop respect for their parents. But this approach does not help a child to integrate his fear. Only an approach that provides unconditional love will garner respect for the parents! Therefore, if the parents want the child's respect, the child must be the recipient of respect1. It is the same principle with adults - if we want a friend, we have to be a friend. And if we want respect, we must respect others. This process begins with a deep appreciation of the inner workings of a child's mind. When the child's thoughts and feelings are heard and acknowledged by adults, he will feel respected and accepted, and experience peace of mind. Having received this type of treatment, it is easy for the child to learn to respect others.
Forbidden self-expression, due to fear of rejection or ridicule, causes the child to feel unaccepted. This creates fear, and under these circumstances, the fear will not be integrated. This child will then harbor resentment instead of respect. With the child's fully developed limbic system combined with a prefrontal cortex that lags behind in development, actions that cause the child to feel rejection are not likely to be processed by the child's mind as they are by the adult mind. When a person (child or adult) feels fear, he must emerge from the situation feeling safe and knowing that he can protect himself should he encounter a similar situation. This is not likely to happen if the parents themselves are the source of the fear.
Greatly enabling the parent to love the child unconditionally is the realization that the development of their child's limbic system is years ahead of his prefrontal cortex. This simply means that he is not an adult! Armed with this knowledge, it is easier to appreciate why children may at times appear irresponsible, selfish, impulsive, immature and inconsiderate. The fact that puppies act like puppies and not like grown dogs is readily accepted. Yet parents have trouble accepting normalcy in their own child! This is more than likely due to the fact that the parent?s own normal, childish behavior was not accepted unconditionally in their childhood.
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/barry_philipp.html (http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/barry_philipp.html)
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Well, I look at it a little differently. I don?t place conditions as you say (like a list of requirements) on loving someone or someone loving me.
?Unconditional love is a concept that means showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs.?
I don?t see this as a set of conditions that need to be met. Lets say a family believes it has unconditional love for one another and the parents severely beats his children and abuses them. My belief is that at some point if this continues this bond will be broken and the child will no longer love his parents. Therefore this love does, in fact, have boundaries and limits. If this is true than it can not be called unconditional.
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I don?t see this as a set of conditions that need to be met. Lets say a family believes it has unconditional love for one another and the parents severely beats his children and abuses them. My belief is that at some point if this continues this bond will be broken and the child will no longer love his parents. Therefore this love does, in fact, have boundaries and limits. If this is true than it can not be called unconditional.
If that was the case then obviously the parent never loved the child to begin with.
If this is what you truly believe though tell us what are the limitations and boundaries that your daughter must stay within in order to recieve your love?
Has she ever crossed those boundaries?
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If that was the case then obviously the parent never loved the child to begin with.
This may be true, but the child initially loved his/her parents.
If this is what you truly believe though tell us what are the limitations and boundaries that your daughter must stay within in order to recieve your love?
I really don?t know, I have never defined them or have drawn a line in the sand. . I fundamentally believe the boundaries exist for all and that they may not be the same for everyone. We may never know what they are unless or until they are crossed??.
Has she ever crossed those boundaries?
No
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This may be true, but the child initially loved his/her parents.
You don't know this. A child is not born instinctivly loving its parent. It loves the person who cares for it, and who loves it from the beginning. If a parent right off the bat hates the child and shows the child as much, the child will never grow to love the parent.
I really don?t know, I have never defined them or have drawn a line in the sand. . I fundamentally believe the boundaries exist for all and that they may not be the same for everyone. We may never know what they are unless or until they are crossed??.
But they can be crossed? So essentially your daughter could make enough choices against your wishes, or piss you off enough times that eventually you'll say, "That's it I no longer love you."
????
Quote:
Has she ever crossed those boundaries?
No
Lucky her I guess.
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Well, I look at it a little differently. I don?t place conditions as you say (like a list of requirements) on loving someone or someone loving me.
?Unconditional love is a concept that means showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs.?
I don?t see this as a set of conditions that need to be met. Lets say a family believes it has unconditional love for one another and the parents severely beats his children and abuses them. My belief is that at some point if this continues this bond will be broken and the child will no longer love his parents. Therefore this love does, in fact, have boundaries and limits. If this is true than it can not be called unconditional.
It's unconditional by nature. Unless the person is some sort of mental defective, like a guy who beats and abuses his kids. Or one that requires his child to meet certain conditions before he loves her. Or one that sends his daughtewr to therapy alone and then ships her off to a program alone and is then surprised when she comes home and wants him to leave her alone.
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But they can be crossed? So essentially your daughter could make enough choices against your wishes, or piss you off enough times that eventually you'll say, "That's it I no longer love you."
In theory, yes. I believe boundaries exist and it is not as simple as pissing off someone to the point that you don?t love them anymore. I don?t think she could piss me off or me her to the point where it destroys our love for each other.
One parent could beat their child every day and that child may still continue to love that parent, while another would not and that bond could be breached.
So yes the boundaries exist?what they are specifically I don?t know and I believe varies from person to person.
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So, here's where we're at:
TheWho said:
"I don't believe in unconditional love"
If you don't believe in unconditional love, then therefore you must believe in conditional love or that love doewsn't exist. TheWho went on to state that he does believe love exists, but it is conditional.
TheWho was then asked if love is conditional, what are the conditions he requires to love his daughter, since he already stated he doesn't love her unconditionally.
It's a logical progression and completely sound. TheWho is trying to back out of his statement now, but he did say it, several times in fact.
Here's the argument:
1. Love exists.
2. Love is not unconditional.
3. Therefore love is conditional.
4. Love is given to individuals based on certain conditions.
5. Therefore TheWho has conditions that people must meet in order to gain his love.
6. Therefore his daughter would need to meet those conditions.
7. Therefore TheWho does not unconditionally love his daughter.
This begs the question "Under which conditions does TheWho love his child, and under which conditions does he not?"
It's really a simple question to answer.
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I cant even begin to understand how a parent cant love their child unconditionally. Why would you have a child if you are not prepared to do this. It is pretty much a given that all families are disfunctional but even with this in mind the concept of conditional love from a parent is revolting.
No wonder these bizarre places thrive.
Probably something he heard in a parent seminar. Thought it sounded good and adopted without contemplating what it actually means. And then maybe his love is conditional, so the program was a good fit.
Well i would bet that had something to do with it. The entire program<->parent shtick revolves around creating a rift between the parent and child... It is disguised as intended to strengthen the relationship... but then again so many concepts are redefined in program and parents generally trust the professionals.... After all, the new-age wack-jobs should know what they are doing (they actually do).. what with the est influence and all...
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what they are specifically I don?t know and I believe varies from person to person.
I'm not asking about other people, I'm asking about you. What would your daughter have to do in order to lose your love?
By the way you never answered my question regarding your relationship with your own parents.
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Listen. For once i aggree with the who. Love is conditional. I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them. It is possible for love to end.
But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control. The only difference is the condition under which love ends.
We were talking about a parent's love for their child, not the other way around.
Are we? The two are inter-related. IE: if somebody does not accept me as i am and love me for it, am i likely to reciprocate?
Of course, people with serious mental defects, like TheWho or some other program parents (not all - some were duped) aren't capable of giving of themselves.
No. Program parents are not any more mentally defective than the WWASP graduates who say they loved the place. They are simply "indoctrinated". You think parents don't care about their children? in 99% of cases they probably think they do but, as you have pointed out, are somewhat confused over the definitions of "love" and "care". Program spends an immense amount of time talking to the parents, telling them what they "did wrong" and what they should have done... I've seen the letters, i know what they say. As soon as i'm through with Benchmark i'll release em publicly.
At the very worst, parents are desperate to have a suitable "floor model" to show off to their friends. Some realize this is what they want, some jsut don't want to be "embarrassed" in front of their friends, and some don't want them to have to "go through what I did" (ironic isn't it). in any case, they are desperate. It's that desperation that lets this industry thrive. If the parents really didn't care they could simply hand the kid over to the state...
What they do they do for their own benefit, not the child's. People likeTheWho send their kids to programs because they just don't like their kids and the kids therefore are not worthy of their love. He said it flat out - he does not love his daughter unless she meets certain conditions. It's an illness, not the norm.
I don't know that he said that. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention. He may have implied it, but he did not flat out say it... and if he did... I wonder if he held that view before program.
A parent's unconditional love for their child is the most natural thing in the world. Only very selfish people with serious mental defects believe otherwise, like TheWho.
It's unnatural for a parent to love their child based on conditions.[/quote]
Unnatural yes. It's a learned philosophy.
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what they are specifically I don?t know and I believe varies from person to person.
I'm not asking about other people, I'm asking about you. What would your daughter have to do in order to lose your love?
By the way you never answered my question regarding your relationship with your own parents.
Bob, you have asked a lot of questions and I think I have been fair in my attempt to addressing all of them. Try looking back over my responses, my answers are there if I wished to answer them.
It would be nice to hear your views on the topic.
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Well, I look at it a little differently. I don?t place conditions as you say (like a list of requirements) on loving someone or someone loving me.
?Unconditional love is a concept that means showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs.?
I don?t see this as a set of conditions that need to be met. Lets say a family believes it has unconditional love for one another and the parents severely beats his children and abuses them. My belief is that at some point if this continues this bond will be broken and the child will no longer love his parents. Therefore this love does, in fact, have boundaries and limits. If this is true than it can not be called unconditional.
That is exactly what I was trying to say... Only the point that I was making.. or rather I thought i was making, several pages back, was that love is not indestructable.
Maybe It's a sickness imparted from program upon me, but after seeing parent after parent abandong their children, and the children swear never to speak to them again... It really makes me wonder if love is actually conditional.
I mean, when I was in program, i had nightmares my own mother was trying to kill me. They made me fear her. Granted she was overpowering and controlling at times, the point was for me to feel safe in program, and resent my parents. My parents were given a similar treatment... The lies they were told regarding me in program were designed explicitly with their prejudices and expectations in mind. They were trying to orchestrate a catastrophic rift... and very very nearly suceeded. I hated them. It was encouraged. "go ahead, confront your parents, you need to talk about what we mentioned in group the other day" I don't know how my parents realized they were being lied to but they did... and after talking to them recently, that is what they claim convinced them that they needed to reconsider Benchmark's advice. Me on the other hand... I didn't want their help. I was convinced we would never get along or come to a compromise. Well I was wrong.
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Bob, you have asked a lot of questions and I think I have been fair in my attempt to addressing all of them. Try looking back over my responses, my answers are there if I wished to answer them.
Right Cindy, if you wished to answer them.
It would be nice to hear your views on the topic.
Fire away Cindy, I'm not afraid to own my position.
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Any discussion about this thing and any child belongs in the other thread.
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Listen. For once i aggree with the who. Love is conditional. I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them. It is possible for love to end.
But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control. The only difference is the condition under which love ends.
We were talking about a parent's love for their child, not the other way around.
Are we? The two are inter-related. IE: if somebody does not accept me as i am and love me for it, am i likely to reciprocate?
Yeh, that's where it started out, and someone (Who?) expanded it by talking about unconditional love between people in general.
In terms of parent/child relationships, I think this is worth repeating:
Greatly enabling the parent to love the child unconditionally is the realization that the development of their child's limbic system is years ahead of his prefrontal cortex. This simply means that he is not an adult! Armed with this knowledge, it is easier to appreciate why children may at times appear irresponsible, selfish, impulsive, immature and inconsiderate. The fact that puppies act like puppies and not like grown dogs is readily accepted. Yet parents have trouble accepting normalcy in their own child! This is more than likely due to the fact that the parent?s own normal, childish behavior was not accepted unconditionally in their childhood.
It's a viscous, incidious cycle and can take considerable effort to break. It can be exceedingly difficult to have unconditional love for your child if you you never experienced it. Disrespect can be subtle, and much disrespect toward children is condoned and accepted as desirable in our society. Long ago it was believed that children were just little adults with all the capabilities of adults, and were expected to act as such or face harsh punishment. Science and objective observation has shown that not to be the case. Little ones don't yet possess the skills of self control, which is something useful for humans to master. If a parent doesn't possess self control, their child likely will not, because they aren't capable of assisting their child's mastery in that area. Many kids reach adolescence with no ability to self monitor and control.
When a kid screams, "I hate you", many parents take it literally and personally. With their limited skills, "I hate you" is their best/only way of saying they feel disrespected, and chances are almost certain, they are reacting to disrespect. One must also wonder where a young child has heard, "I hate you"? Mom to dad, dad to child? "I hate you", more times than not, means, I feel hurt, scared, frustrated... but ultimately disrespected. Wee ones tend not to harbor resentment. But the older a child becomes, the stronger the drive to defend against disrespect- a survival technique. Hence the issues that arise in adolescence. Lacking unconditional love, having been disrepected, not taught self monitoring/ control skills, they too often land in warehouses where they will be further disrespected until their will is broken and they conform (or get kicked out). Not because they've learned respect in a respectful environment, but because they fear punishment. They learn to "act" as expected.... goes back to that old belief that kids are little adults.
It's 2007. When will they learn? When will they eeeeever learn?
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Guest wrote:
It's unconditional by nature....
I really don?t believe unconditional love is natural from birth. It has no real definition that can be held up, measured and applied to everyone. I believe the state of being unconditionally loved comes from our intense fear of loneliness and the insecurities that go along with it. As we see our parents getting divorced, the world at war, hazing and abuse and bullying at school the ideal of being unconditionally loved at home becomes so much more important and if it didn?t exist 100 years ago it is definitely needed today. A million years ago I would venture to guess it didn?t exist either. If you ate from your fathers plate you might have been killed on the spot without a thought. We have evolved as a species over time and created, nurtured the family and now hold it up as a beacon depicting our civilized world. But is it infallible? Can it have flaws?
Unconditional love is there for the child and created as a shield to allow ourselves to take chances, make mistakes, piss our parents off knowing they will always love us no matter what and this is what separates us from other species. The family bond and love between them has grown strong over the generations because it was needed. The bond is strong, but is it truly unconditional, unbreakable? Can the family unit be severed? I think it can.
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The bond is strong, but is it truly unconditional, unbreakable? Can the family unit be severed? I think it can.
and for you that's fine. You can philosiphize it all you want, good parents love their children unconditionally. Maybe the reason youve had so many problems with your daughter is this very issue right here.
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The bond is strong, but is it truly unconditional, unbreakable? Can the family unit be severed? I think it can.
and for you that's fine. You can philosiphize it all you want, good parents love their children unconditionally. Maybe the reason youve had so many problems with your daughter is this very issue right here.
Bob, why don?t you give your opinion on the topic, join the discussion instead of just ridiculing others?
What are your views on ?unconditional love??
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ok. i'll get to the point. who: You wouldn't have that opinion if you did not have personal experience relating to it in your life. Most people are too optimistic and/or naive... So. did your parents stop loving you, or did you stop loving your daughter, or vice-versa. Where is the deal love in your family?
To clarify: I believe parents should love their children unconditionally.. however it does not always turn out that way, especially when the parents have unrealistic and/or overly controlling views over "who" they want their children to be (Hence one good reason programs claim to be able to fix "it all").
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Unconditional love is there for the child and created as a shield to allow ourselves to take chances, make mistakes, piss our parents off knowing they will always love us no matter what and this is what separates us from other species.
this is true and vital. This is why young people need unconditional love because it is natural for them to make mistakes as a part of growing up. it is also natural to lash out from time to time as a kid and claim to hate your parents. But as Deborah pointed out most kids dont maintain the rage for long. Not if their parents love them in spite of their mistakes and flaws. This is what is so fucked up about a system that encourages such an absolutist approach. Parents become too harsh and when their kids become adults they often hate them, or are not truly close. I hope parents keep this in mind when it is time for the nursing home!
Unconditional love is also what bridges the gap between clashes of personal values and of differing political and religious ideas in families. i dont see how anyone can be a real parent without it because they will never know who their child really is!
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ok. i'll get to the point. who: You wouldn't have that opinion if you did not have personal experience relating to it in your life. Most people are too optimistic and/or naive... So. did your parents stop loving you, or did you stop loving your daughter, or vice-versa. Where is the deal love in your family?
To clarify: I believe parents should love their children unconditionally.. however it does not always turn out that way, especially when the parents have unrealistic and/or overly controlling views over "who" they want their children to be (Hence one good reason programs claim to be able to fix "it all").
No, We use to talk about this in college before any of us had kids. I think it was a result of required psych courses and humanities electives. I was brought up in a fairly normal family environment..... I dont think I could imagine in my wildest dreams what condition would cause me not to love my daughter or her me, but I don?t believe, fundamentally, in anything existing without limits, sometimes we just don?t see them or don?t know what they are.
I think most people really think they do love their kids unconditionally; it doesn?t make them wrong, they just haven?t seen the limit points and most never do hopefully.
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Bob, why don?t you give your opinion on the topic, join the discussion instead of just ridiculing others?
What are your views on ?unconditional love??
Again come down off the cross, no one is ridiculing you, I'm just pointing out the logical conclusion derived from your comments and view point. Nothing more.
To answer your question though my views are this: My child could grow up and murder someone, it would not stop me from loving them. They could grow up and hate me, it still wouldnt change a thing. I may not like them, I may hate their choices, I may be disappointed in them or the descions they make. But I will never stop loving them. Any good parent will tell you the same thing.
No, We use to talk about this in college before any of us had kids. I think it was a result of required psych courses and humanities electives
Really? I was a child psych major in college Cindy, and Ive never heard of this being a prevalent ideology. In fact in the limited discussion that was held on it, it was generally viewed as bad parenting because it destroys trust with the child. Where did you go to school Cindy? Id love to talk to some of your professors if theyre still around.
I think most people really think they do love their kids unconditionally; it doesn?t make them wrong, they just haven?t seen the limit points and most never do hopefully.
This is what gets you into trouble Cindy. Claiming you know the reality of a situation better than the individual who experiences it is just arrogant and stupid. This is no different then the time you claimed that the kids who talked about being abused, "really believe they were abused ". Maybe, just maybe the people who experience these things know better about it then you. Something you may want to consider.
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Really? I was a child psych major in college Cindy, and Ive never heard of this being a prevalent ideology. In fact in the limited discussion that was held on it, it was generally viewed as bad parenting because it destroys trust with the child. Where did you go to school Cindy? Id love to talk to some of your professors if theyre still around.
No what I meant was college age, we would talk about this. I wasn?t taught this belief in school. Sorry if this wasn?t clear.
This is what gets you into trouble Cindy. Claiming you know the reality of a situation better than the individual who experiences it is just arrogant and stupid. This is no different then the time you claimed that the kids who talked about being abused, "really believe they were abused ". Maybe, just maybe the people who experience these things know better about it then you. Something you may want to consider
I?m always in trouble, Bob?.step back a little and read? I am giving my opinion, why get so upset? You don?t need to read or believe what I say. I am offering my point of view.
I accept your position on unconditional love, it is yours and I respect that. We should all be entitled to our own. If you take a position I don?t believe in I read it and move on, maybe I may learn something from it maybe not, but I don?t take offense because it goes against my views.
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I'm also known for pulling large pieces of furniture from my ass. I'm the best.
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No what I meant was college age, we would talk about this. I wasn?t taught this belief in school. Sorry if this wasn?t clear.
Sure you did Cindy. Don't you just hate it when someone quotes you before you get a chance to go back and edit?
No, We use to talk about this in college before any of us had kids. I think it was a result of required psych courses and humanities electives
So when you said "in college" you meant "college age" and when you said "required psych courses and humanities electives" you meant "sitting around shooting the shit with a bunch of guys who like to talk about unconditional love."
:rofl:
Right Cindy. How's that foot taste?
I?m always in trouble, Bob?.step back a little and read? I am giving my opinion, why get so upset? You don?t need to read or believe what I say. I am offering my point of view.
I accept your position on unconditional love, it is yours and I respect that. We should all be entitled to our own. If you take a position I don?t believe in I read it and move on, maybe I may learn something from it maybe not, but I don?t take offense because it goes against my views.
Oh no Cindy youve got it wrong. Youre entitled to your opinion and belifes misguided and idiotic though they may be, I'll never tell you otherwise. What youre not entitled to do is claim you either know what other people are thinking, know other peoples reality, or know what's best for people. Nor are you permitted to cite your opinion as fact without having it thrown right back at you.
If you can handle that then you and I are just fine.
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Arguing with TheWho is like a college student doing a third-grader's homework.
You're always right, but it makes you look retarded.
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So when you said "in college" you meant "college age" and when you said "required psych courses and humanities electives" you meant "sitting around shooting the shit with a bunch of guys who like to talk about unconditional love."
Right Cindy. How's that foot taste?
Well, let me clarify a little, I think most people understand. When I was in college we were required to take liberal arts electives, I believe a psych course was required. Anyway, we were dating at the time and we would sit around an sometimes talk about stuff, how the world works, is marriage necessary? How does one know if they are in love?and another was unconditional love and we would joke about blowing up the school or something outrageous like that and wondering if our parents would still love us or would they write us off?anyway that?s where that comes from?.if this doesn?t sit well with you or you don?t believe it, Bob .. it is really okay with me.
Oh no Cindy youve got it wrong. Youre entitled to your opinion and belifes misguided and idiotic though they may be, I'll never tell you otherwise. What youre not entitled to do is claim you either know what other people are thinking, know other peoples reality, or know what's best for people. Nor are you permitted to cite your opinion as fact without having it thrown right back at you.
If you can handle that then you and I are just fine.
Hmmm.. alrighty then !!! Ha..Ha..Ha.. I guess we are all happy tonight!!!
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oz Girl Wrote:
this is true and vital. This is why young people need unconditional love because it is natural for them to make mistakes as a part of growing up. it is also natural to lash out from time to time as a kid and claim to hate your parents. But as Deborah pointed out most kids dont maintain the rage for long. Not if their parents love them in spite of their mistakes and flaws. This is what is so fucked up about a system that encourages such an absolutist approach. Parents become too harsh and when their kids become adults they often hate them, or are not truly close. I hope parents keep this in mind when it is time for the nursing home!
Unconditional love is also what bridges the gap between clashes of personal values and of differing political and religious ideas in families. i dont see how anyone can be a real parent without it because they will never know who their child really is!
I think this speaks more towards understanding and open-mindedness than unconditional love. Parents need to create an atmosphere in the home that is free from judgment, encourage debate and free thinking, allowing the child to have their own political views and religious values. I know this can be an added challenge if the family is heavily involved in a church organization or political affiliated and the child chooses to step outside of it.
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Well, let me clarify a little, I think most people understand. When I was in college we were required to take liberal arts electives, I believe a psych course was required. Anyway, we were dating at the time and we would sit around an sometimes talk about stuff, how the world works, is marriage necessary? How does one know if they are in love?and another was unconditional love and we would joke about blowing up the school or something outrageous like that and wondering if our parents would still love us or would they write us off?anyway that?s where that comes from?.if this doesn?t sit well with you or you don?t believe it, Bob .. it is really okay with me.
So youve gone from when you were in college to when you were college age to in college but not part of the class just normal discussions pertaining to committing acts of terrorism against your school.
Keep digging that hole Cindy, you'll get out eventually. :wink:
Hmmm.. alrighty then !!! Ha..Ha..Ha.. I guess we are all happy tonight!!!
I guess so! At least until you do any of the afore mentioned things again. Shouldnt be long now!
You know Cindy theres still a whole discussion waiting for you on the Aspen thread. Did you get bored with that? If so I have a question for you pertaining to this one: Do you believe in God?
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Okay, Bob, we need to go back to Fridays since you cant be nice and stop trolling all the threads. This isn?t fair to the other readers.
So here is how it will work for me, you save up all your questions and present them on Thursday nights and post them to ?TheWho? thread. But before you post them I want you to answer your own questions so we can get you to participate in the topics at hand and contribute some thoughts of your own instead of asking others to do all the work. Talk to you Friday.
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Awwww did Cindy get his feelings hurt?
:cry:
Okay, Bob, we need to go back to Fridays since you cant be nice and stop trolling all the threads.
This coming from the guy who has not one but two threads set up entirely dedicated to his own bullshit, plus a new thread set up pleading with posters not to respond to your idiocy.
Who's the troll here Cindy? You.
Of course with your double standards whenever you call someone a troll its a negative, whenever someone calls you a troll youre a hero.
One thing about your friday policy, you were too afraid to answer the questions for last friday so does that mean next friday there will be a double helping?
So here is how it will work for me, you save up all your questions and present them on Thursday nights and post them to ?TheWho? thread. But before you post them I want you to answer your own questions so we can get you to participate in the topics at hand and contribute some thoughts of your own instead of asking others to do all the work. Talk to you Friday.
I understand Cindy, you need at least 24 hours to come up with appropriate bullshit answers, as to answering my own questions towards you, this would be pointless. What do my answers have to do with your misguided opinions? I've contributed much more to these conversations then you ever could or would, Ive also never been afraid to own or back up my own position or answer pertinant questions. You of course being a coward stooge cannot say the same thing.
That being the case you take all the time you need to clear your answers to me with your boss and your propoganda writers, in the meantime any questions you have for me I'll be glad to answer anytime. You just fire away, and when you feel safe and have been sufficently programmed, you answer mine.
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]a new thread set up pleading with posters not to respond to your idiocy.
AND YOU STILL WILL NOT LISTEN TO THEM FOR THE SAKE OF GOD AND MAN
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You still dont feel its neccesary to show parents exactly what kind of sick fuck wants to control their kids?
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I think they more than got the hint TWO THOUSAND REPLIES AGO.
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Look at his comments on the aspen thread. You dont think his bullshit is putting kids in danger?
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I'm also known for pulling large pieces of furniture from my ass. I'm the best.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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