Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Oz girl on February 16, 2007, 04:51:58 AM
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So. one thing i have been noticing a lot recently is discussion based around the idea of comparison of TBS/Wilderness to Normal School/ Summer camp. i am sure i am not alone in thinking that the comparison is silly on many levels so i thought i would take death counts and physical violence out of it and compare and contrast the other differences to see which is healthier
TBS kids are locked up witout trial for indefinite sentences
Jailed convicted criminals have the right to representation and an appeal. They have a good idea of when they will be free
Normal kids either live among the community or go home to it regularly.
TBS kids get 1/2 an academic education because so much time is devoted to "therapy"
Normal BS/ school first and foremost about school
TBS stops kids from making realistic choices
Normal school kids learn about life from making mistakes and choices
TBS Forces therapy
Normal therapy is voluntary. if the patient is just not feeling it they go somewhere better for them.
TBS uses exercise to punish
Normal school offers recreational activities and opportunities for healthy competition. Sullen chess players are not forced to run if it is not their thing. Blokey boys are not forced to dress in drag to get out of their comfort zone!
Summer camp keeps kids busy and entertained
Wilderness keeps kids busy and penalised for their sins and transgressions
Normal BS sometimes has strict but usually fair rules. The whole family makes the decision as to whether this is what their child will benefit from this
TBS has rules which apply in a focault thesis but not in any actual world setting
Normal BS has houses and year levels appropriate ot age and academic skill. These build comraderie but do not replace the family
TBS has pretend "families" and Peer Groups made up of perfect stangers which replace a real family.
When a normal boarding school kid tells mum that they are homesick and cant wait to be home they are reminded of how the holidays, next home weekend etc is just around the corner. Worried mums who follow up with those in charge are encouraged to call in or see how their child is doing in a day or 2
At TBS a home sick kids is made to suck it up for a year. Worried parents aretold the kids is just making shit up
At normal BS mail and phone calls are uncensored. parents would be puzzled at the suggestion that somebody else would have the right to interfere with the relationship between them and their child
At most TBS censorship is encouraged. Parents apparently have no issue with assuming a stanger knows their child better than they
PPL feel free to add your own comparisons
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at BM programs children are tortured
at summer camp children are not tortured
(BM ? so aptly named)
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In a TBS, masturbation is a punishable offense.
In real life, masturbation is a fun thing to do when bored.
In a TBS, isolation is used as punishment. .
In real life, people don't lock other people in cages in the name of help.
In a TBS, parents are praised for their deficiencies and abusive stance.
In real life, these people would have ended up in prison.
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A couple more:
In a PS kids are exposed to violence
In a TBS they are not
In a PS kids are exposed to Drugs
In a TBS they are not
In a PS kids are ridiculed by teachers and other kids for being different
In a TBS they are not
In a PS kids parents can typically only get updates on their child?s development a few times a year
In a TBS parents get weekly updates.
In a PS kids are given detention (held after school against their will) for breaking the rules.
In a TBS they are not but are given writing assignments instead or more constructive ways to spend their time.
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In a PS kids are exposed to violence
In a TBS they are not
Granted school has violence, it doesn't compare to what I personally experienced in a private program. At PS the danger was from rival kids and gangs, not the teachers and the admins of the school.
In a PS kids are exposed to Drugs
In a TBS they are not
Not true. Even the most restrictive program like I was in, you can get drugs if you really want them. Suck a staff's cock, something like that, it can go a long way to score some meth to smoke out with a staff.
In a PS kids are ridiculed by teachers and other kids for being different
In a TBS they are not
Oh please man. Ridicule is their therapy of choice in most programs. At least the one's I've been through! If we talked back to teachers in school we'd get detention, not 5 days in an animal cage isolation hole.
In a PS kids parents can typically only get updates on their child?s development a few times a year
In a TBS parents get weekly updates.
So you weren't asking your kid what they learned in school? I thought all parents did that? Do you not believe your kid? Could you not call the teachers? You can get involved, they will not arrest you for taking interest in your child's schooling Who.
In a PS kids are given detention (held after school against their will) for breaking the rules.
In a TBS they are not but are given writing assignments instead or more constructive ways to spend their time.
I never went to detnetion. So they gave me staurday school. Never went to that, so I got in school suspension. Skipped that, so I got out of school suspension.
In the program, I was physically dragged to a small, cold, isolation room for days at a time, given limited meals and water and not allowed to shower or wear more than dirty sweats and tshirt while sleeping on a piss and shit and cum stained floor.
I am assuming you were trying to be funny, but your comparisons do not reflect the reality of programs, sorry to be the one to inform you of that.
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I am assuming you were trying to be funny, but your comparisons do not reflect the reality of programs, sorry to be the one to inform you of that.
No actually I wasnt. This was our experience at a TBS, you seem to have attended some place different. This is why I try to tell parents to look around and do their homework before choosing a path for their child. These schools can run full spectrum.....
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I am assuming you were trying to be funny, but your comparisons do not reflect the reality of programs, sorry to be the one to inform you of that.
No actually I wasnt. This was our experience at a TBS, you seem to have attended some place different. This is why I try to tell parents to look around and do their homework before choosing a path for their child. These schools can run full spectrum.....
You take a lot of ownership over your daughter's experience, my father does the same. That's why I take everything you say with a grain of salt, because my father still to this day sounds exactly like you, too. Obviously, my own experience was a little more graphic than he likes to tell other people. If you listen to his story and mine they sound completely different. If he called my stay at a program 'our experience at a TBS' I would be offended. He has no idea. How can you show someone something they can't even contemplate exists? How can you draw a picture so vivid, in colors they don't know of?
What program specifically were you talking about so we can avoid confusion? I was talking about WWASPS.
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If you listen to his story and mine they sound completely different.
Yea, heard about some of the WWASP programs
That?s too bad that you both don?t see it the same way?. My daughter attended ASR?.. I can see calling it our experience because it effects the entire family not just the one child. I am sure the child feels that way and the kids that stay home feel they were effected and the parents feel they were the ones effected (if you talked to them individually) but in reality it effects everyone.
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So you weren't asking your kid what they learned in school? I thought all parents did that? Do you not believe your kid? Could you not call the teachers? You can get involved, they will not arrest you for taking interest in your child's schooling Who.
Oh, we were very much involved at all levels. I am referring to the general communication between the school and home. If a parent wants to they can talk to a teacher everyday at a TBS or PS but the PS system is set up for very infrequent communication with the teachers where as the TBS?s are set up to communicate at a minimum of once per week. This was a big difference for us.
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At our school a parent could request special progress reports, and the kid would have to carry a daily progress report around with them for a week for the teachers to write notes about how they were doing.
I see what you are saying about it being a shared experience. The reason I took notice of that is because it's still an issue in my family. How can you share an experience when it consists of two completely contradictory stories?
On the other hand, given the choice, of rather being tortured myself, or being the one responsible for the torture of my loved one, I'd take the first option any day. I got off light. Can't imagine what a parent must go through, if they truly had good intentions, after finding out they paid to have their child abused.
I assume that's why my dad put up the roadblock to discussion on this topic.
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On the other hand, given the choice, of rather being tortured myself, or being the one responsible for the torture of my loved one, I'd take the first option any day. I got off light.
I agree, I would rather take the torture myself over my daughter or child. I think your dad would too if he had known it was going to be abusive, most parents would give their lives for their kids.
Can't imagine what a parent must go through, if they truly had good intentions, after finding out they paid to have their child abused.
I assume that's why my dad put up the roadblock to discussion on this topic..
It would be an awful feeling, I would imagine. I would bring a law suit in a heartbeat and organize other parents. Parents sue the local PS around here for having a book with the word ?God ? in it, I couldn?t imagine what would happen if they were abused.
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See why he's too stupid to be worth talking to, people?
We originally had a topic here.
WITHOUT REPLIES, THE TROLL DIES.
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See why he's too stupid to be worth talking to, people?
Nope... can't say I do.
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Wow. I told you he isnt a troll he's just a whackjob,
In a PS kids are exposed to violence
In a TBS they are not
Aside from the regular "restraints" from the staff and possible attacks from any Hannibal Lectors enrolled.
In a PS kids are exposed to Drugs
In a TBS they are not
Kids get creative off what to get high off of in a TBS. Unless of course they sneak real drugs in or simply buy some off the staff.
In a PS kids are ridiculed by teachers and other kids for being different
In a TBS they are not
Cindy I was ridiculed by staff because I hadnt done any drugs. Other kids were picked on by the spirtual staff for being jewish. The gay kids were torn apart almost daily.
In a PS kids parents can typically only get updates on their child?s development a few times a year
In a TBS parents get weekly updates.
Yeah censored and montiored updates from the kids and edited and sugar coated ones from the staff.
In a PS kids are given detention (held after school against their will) for breaking the rules.
In a TBS they are not but are given writing assignments instead or more constructive ways to spend their time.
Yes like carrying boulders around a lake for hours? Or moving railroad ties back and forth for no apparent reason? Is that constructive?
Cindy all youve done here is reinforce that you know nothing about the PTS. Nothing. With every post you lose more credibility. Give it up man, you havent got a clue.
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Here is one more I can think of:
PS doesn?t promote healthy social interaction mainly focuses on academics
TBS promotes/models and creates healthy relationships and builds self esteem.
I think PS has more flexibility built into their system than TBS's though as far as academics go.
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Speaking as someone who had a really lousy time in summer camp and grade school, where I was the object of ridicule, it PALED in comparison to what I went through at a TBS.
Peer bullying is a part of life as an adolescent and a teen, but it is not systemic. It's just social dynamics.
In a TBS, it is most certainly systemic, and is used to break down your resistance and modify your behavior. There is nothing resembling normal social interaction whatsoever.
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Here is one more I can think of:
Don't hurt yourself now.
PS doesn?t promote healthy social interaction mainly focuses on academics
Again Cindy believes he can dictate what does and does not count.
School athletics and extra circular activites are prime examples of what youre claiming doesnt exist.
TBS promotes/models and creates healthy relationships and builds self esteem.
TBS's put people on friendship bans when they see people becoming too good of friends. Forbid the forming of normal boy-girl relationships, and routinley belittle people, force them relive their worst moments and try to convince them they are garbage.
Once again Cindy with every post you reinforce that you know nothing about TBS's or the PTS in general. Nothing at all. You lose more and more credibility every time you post. There is nothing youve can said, no claim you've made thats been worth anything and hasnt been shot down. Your logic and claims are useless as you are.
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I went to PS for twelve years (k-12) and can state first hand that everything The Who said about PS is patently false. Everything was peaches and cream in our wonderful schools. We had good friends and good times. We liked our teachers and even visited them at their homes. We participated in activities and community service projects. We had sports. We had class trips. We learned lots of neat and useful stuff like reading, writing, and how to make a chemical volcano. Many students came back and said thanks to their favorite students. Some of my friends now teach at these schools. I never saw any violence at school.
My Dad taught public school for forty years and never had any violence in his class; not even once. He still has former students visit thank him for the job he did.
Not only does the Who know nothing of TBSs, he knows nothing about PS.
Gee, Who, there are good public schools out there. Who'd a thunk it?
There are ZERO good programs. They use coercive techniques that automatically disqualify them from being 'good.'
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why don't you all just start a thread down in my forum with the real facts and figures about TBS programs. Any attempt to interfer in that thread will be visciously and gleefully deleted.
I tried that ... many posts just disappear which makes it hard to follow along...someone has a delete button in that forum.
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I went to PS for twelve years (k-12) and can state first hand that everything The Who said about PS is patently false. Everything was peaches and cream in our wonderful schools. We had good friends and good times. We liked our teachers and even visited them at their homes. We participated in activities and community service projects. We had sports. We had class trips. We learned lots of neat and useful stuff like reading, writing, and how to make a chemical volcano. Many students came back and said thanks to their favorite students. Some of my friends now teach at these schools. I never saw any violence at school.
My Dad taught public school for forty years and never had any violence in his class; not even once. He still has former students visit thank him for the job he did.
Not only does the Who know nothing of TBSs, he knows nothing about PS.
Gee, Who, there are good public schools out there. Who'd a thunk it?
There are ZERO good programs. They use coercive techniques that automatically disqualify them from being 'good.'
So based on your experience we should conclude that all Public schools are the same? That all kids have a great time and look back on it the way you do? Good friends good times, no abuse? Hmmmm
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"Comparisons which dont involve death counts"
:rofl:
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Do you honestly think I would use the phrase "peaches and cream" without being facetious?
I went to school in the 1970s in a small town in the middle of no where. I did not attend school in a ghetto, which I am sure would be much different. The point that you missed is that the kids in programs tend to come from middle class families. They are not inner city kids in these programs. If they were, there would be more violence, riots, and escapes at these programs.
The point is there is no valid comparison between PS and programs. You're comparing onions and oranges.
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Do you honestly think I would use the phrase "peaches and cream" without being facetious?
I went to school in the 1970s in a small town in the middle of no where. I did not attend school in a ghetto, which I am sure would be much different. The point that you missed is that the kids in programs tend to come from middle class families. They are not inner city kids in these programs. If they were, there would be more violence, riots, and escapes at these programs.
The point is there is no valid comparison between PS and programs. You're comparing onions and oranges.
Good point AA -- I think this would mostly explain the difference or lack of homicides in TBS's but I think the suicide rates would be spread out throughout all regions (inner city and suburbia). Maybe higher in the suburbs, who knows. My daughter had a kid in her peer group from an inner city public school, but this may not be the norm.
So I don?t think the homicide stats will raise an eyebrow among parents because most are not concerned with their child being killed but more that their child will die as a result of the "at risk behavior" they are involved with. But the suicide rates should provide a benchmark that could be followed over time and maybe lead parents toward or away from specific TBS's.
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So I don?t think the homicide stats will raise an eyebrow among parents because most are not concerned with their child being killed by peers but more that their child will .
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Cindy,
So based on your experience we should conclude that all TBS's are the same? That all kids have a great time and look back on it the way you do? Good friends good times, no abuse? Hmmmm
Get back to me on that psychward.
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Cindy,
So based on your experience we should conclude that all TBS's are the same? That all kids have a great time and look back on it the way you do? Good friends good times, no abuse? Hmmmm
Get back to me on that psychward.
no -- Just the opposite, this has been my contention all along that not all TBS's or public schools are the same. There is variation in everything there are good TBS's and bad, Good PS and bad ones Etc. What I have been fighting is a mentality here on fornits that all TBS's are the same and every child that goes there is abused.... I find it amazing that you believe this and expect others to buy into it at the drop of a hat...no parent would ever buy into the belief that every PS is safe and has no violence the same way they would never buy into the mentality that all TBS's abuse kids, they walk away from this with a smile, its nuts.
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What I have been fighting is a mentality here on fornits that all TBS's are the same and every child that goes there is abused.... I find it amazing that you believe this and expect others to buy into it at the drop of a hat...
Fine a single statement from me even insinuating that I feel this way and I'll apologize to you for every comment Ive made, acknowledge that you are right, and never post on fornits again.
Or I could save you some time, you wont find anything even close to that from me.
At the same time you while you make occasional statements claiming otherwise your actions on fornits would seem to suggest you maintain the same mentality that youre claiming to fight against. Simply in the opposite. You often behave or make blanket statements suggesting that all TBS's are good, and that no kids are abused. Just as you seem to suggest that all PS are bad.
Cant have it both ways Cindy.
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What I have been fighting is a mentality here on fornits that all TBS's are the same and every child that goes there is abused.... I find it amazing that you believe this and expect others to buy into it at the drop of a hat...
Fine a single statement from me even insinuating that I feel this way and I'll apologize to you for every comment Ive made, acknowledge that you are right, and never post on fornits again.
Or I could save you some time, you wont find anything even close to that from me.
At the same time you while you make occasional statements claiming otherwise your actions on fornits would seem to suggest you maintain the same mentality that youre claiming to fight against. Simply in the opposite. You often behave or make blanket statements suggesting that all TBS's are good, and that no kids are abused. Just as you seem to suggest that all PS are bad.
Cant have it both ways Cindy.
sorry Bob, it is just the way I feel
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So you cant back up your claim (yet again) and you feel double standards are okay for you to use?
I told you, you were nothing more than an arrogant asshole.
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So you cant back up your claim (yet again) and you feel double standards are okay for you to use?
I told you, you were nothing more than an arrogant asshole.
Look this has been my position all along since day one, if you dont like it tough beans, Bob, stop your crying.
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So you cant back up your claim (yet again) and you feel double standards are okay for you to use?
I told you, you were nothing more than an arrogant asshole.
now clean yourself up and get back out there and bother some more people we need you, damit!!
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Oh theres no tears Cindy, again its just me being honest.
So for the record you are acknowledging that you believe all TBS's to be good and no children to have ever been abused at any of them?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
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You need me? Cindy Im the one hurting your paycheck remember?
Just out of curiosity Cindy and in all seriousness; are you by any chance Mormon?
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Do you honestly think I would use the phrase "peaches and cream" without being facetious?
I went to school in the 1970s in a small town in the middle of no where. I did not attend school in a ghetto, which I am sure would be much different. The point that you missed is that the kids in programs tend to come from middle class families. They are not inner city kids in these programs. If they were, there would be more violence, riots, and escapes at these programs.
The point is there is no valid comparison between PS and programs. You're comparing onions and oranges.
Good point AA -- I think this would mostly explain the difference or lack of homicides in TBS's but I think the suicide rates would be spread out throughout all regions (inner city and suburbia). Maybe higher in the suburbs, who knows. My daughter had a kid in her peer group from an inner city public school, but this may not be the norm.
So I don?t think the homicide stats will raise an eyebrow among parents because most are not concerned with their child being killed but more that their child will die as a result of the "at risk behavior" they are involved with. But the suicide rates should provide a benchmark that could be followed over time and maybe lead parents toward or away from specific TBS's.
uthorities yank youths from unsafe corrections facility
By Carol Kreck, Staff Writer
April 4 - The state of West Virginia was so concerned about the reports of abuse and a suicide at the Brush youth corrections facility that it made plans to send the governor's plane to pick up their residents.
Meanwhile, several other states with young offenders housed at the embattled High Plains Youth Center were making plans to either pull their residents or investigate the charges for themselves.
West Virginia did not even wait to learn if High Plains lost its license before officials there notified Colorado authorities of their intentions.
"West Virginia has notified us they're going to send out a plane,'' said Dwight Eisnach, spokesman for the state department of human services. "They have 15 and will take them all out. They're making arrangements to use the governor of West Virginia's plane.''
Meanwhile, all 40 Colorado youths incarcerated at High Plains were hauled out in a bus at noon Thursday and distributed among state-run youth detention centers.
Administrators at the for-profit detention center had until Friday to show why the Colorado Department of Human Services shouldn't revoke the facility's license, which would effectively shut down the facility to 115 boys from other states.
Rebound, the privately held Denver-based corporation that runs High Plains, delivered a response to Human Services executive director Barbara McDonnell late Friday afternoon explaining how they propose to be held accountable, said Rebound spokesman Tom Schilling.
There wasn't enough time on Friday for the department to review the document and make a decision, according to Eisnach.
Whether High Plains keeps its license may be irrelevant, since other states and municipalities are following Colorado's lead without waiting for a license revocation.
Nebraska, which has five kids at High Plains, was trying Friday afternoon to work out a deal with Colorado Division of Youth Corrections Director Jerry Adamek to take their kids on a short-term basis. "We're trying to find a place for them,'' Eisnach said.
Michigan is sending out an assessment team to do its own audit of the facility, he said, and "Connecticut has notified us of their concerns, but they haven't read the report yet.''
Released Wednesday, the report followed an investigation into the facility and a death by suicide there of 13-year-old Matthew Maloney of Utah on Feb. 22. It's a blistering indictment of High Plains, citing a child-abuse report rate so high that Morgan County Social Services hired a full-time worker to investigate the allegations.
As an outgrowth of the "positive peer culture'' system used at High Plains, a group of offenders called the Cougars seemed to have the run of the facility, the report said.
Staff were inadequately trained, and the staff-to-student ratio sometimes was in violation of licensure requirements. The night Maloney hanged himself, the ratio was 1 to 44 when it should have been 1 to 20, according to the report. Though Rebound officials claim more adults were in the building at the time, child-care license administrators say adult bodies don't count unless they're truly supervising youths.
In a criticism related directly to Maloney's suicide, High Plains administrators knew he had talked about killing himself - he even told them how he would do it - but warnings to keep a special eye on the boy apparently weren't conveyed to night staff.
Maloney had complained of a headache that night so staff skipped the child-care licensing requirement that workers checking on a youth's well-being actually are able to see his skin. In Maloney's case, staff checked every five minutes, but they were only checking on a lump of clothes he'd formed in the shape of a body under his bedspread.
In the meantime, he tied his bedsheets around a toilet, looped them over a shower stall and locker and hanged himself behind the locker, a spot hidden from checks through the window in his door.
Rebound operates other facilities for youths in Colorado: Grand Prairie, a facility smaller than High Plains outside Colorado Springs; the Mount Falcon boot camp at Pueblo; a group home called Adventures in Change in Denver; and they run the orientation and assessment program at Lookout Mountain Youth Services Center, a staterun facility.
The state has no plans to shut down any other Rebound facilities, Eisnach said.
Denver Post, April 4, 1998
http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4~id~570.php (http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4~id~570.php)
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Here is a better article on youth suicide:
http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/ ... d~1290.php (http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4~id~1290.php)
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Here is a better article on youth suicide:
http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/ ... d~1290.php (http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4~id~1290.php)
Good find, AA...... Looks like these lock down facilities need a spot light
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Theyre all lock down facilites idiot.
Now answer the question.
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A couple more:
In a PS kids are exposed to violence
In a TBS they are not
In a PS kids are exposed to Drugs
In a TBS they are not
In a PS kids are ridiculed by teachers and other kids for being different
In a TBS they are not
In a PS kids parents can typically only get updates on their child?s development a few times a year
In a TBS parents get weekly updates.
In a PS kids are given detention (held after school against their will) for breaking the rules.
In a TBS they are not but are given writing assignments instead or more constructive ways to spend their time.
[troll10]
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Would it be possible to change Cindy's from "Troll o Meter" to "Raging dumbass o meter"?
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A couple more:
In a PS kids are exposed to violence
In a TBS they are not
In a PS kids are exposed to Drugs
In a TBS they are not
In a PS kids are ridiculed by teachers and other kids for being different
In a TBS they are not
In a PS kids parents can typically only get updates on their child?s development a few times a year
In a TBS parents get weekly updates.
In a PS kids are given detention (held after school against their will) for breaking the rules.
In a TBS they are not but are given writing assignments instead or more constructive ways to spend their time.
[troll10]
You have been doing this so long you dont see it !!!...Love this... just reinforces what many of us think ......that any opposing argument is met with "Oh, they don?t agree, He/she must be a troll !!!"....Ha,Ha,Ha, I wont appologize for not being in line with the group think and refuse to have my answers approved before posting.
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Youve had this explained to you before. Just because you didnt get it the first time it was explained to you isnt reason for you to get angry with us.
A troll is not someone who simply goes against the majorities viewpoint. Its someone who purposely disrupts the conversation or pretends to be something they are not for whatever reason (even monetary).
Come down off your fucking cross and stop trying to make yourself a martyr.
Now go answer the question.
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Youve had this explained to you before. Just because you didnt get it the first time it was explained to you isnt reason for you to get angry with us.
A troll is not someone who simply goes against the majorities viewpoint. Its someone who purposely disrupts the conversation or pretends to be something they are not for whatever reason (even monetary).
Come down off your fucking cross and stop trying to make yourself a martyr.
Now go answer the question.
Ha,Ha,Ha,
Not until you get the questions approved first.... you could be a troll.
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Would it be possible to change Cindy's from "Troll o Meter" to "Raging dumbass o meter"?
Not unless you want to crash the server.
Oh yeah, standard warning time:
PARENTS! The above poster wants control of YOUR children!
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Its nice that you find your cowardice to be funny, if you cant laugh at yourself who can you laugh at right Cindy?
Here's the thing though:
Sure, I never pass on an honest question, there have been a ton of posts lately, go ahead....
There's you Cindy.
So now youre faced with a dilemia, you can either own up to your own position and statement
or
You can be a coward and a weakling.
No deal neccesary but slam away if it helps you.
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Its nice that you find your cowardice to be funny, if you cant laugh at yourself who can you laugh at right Cindy?
Here's the thing though:
Sure, I never pass on an honest question, there have been a ton of posts lately, go ahead....
There's you Cindy.
So now youre faced with a dilemia, you can either own up to your own position and statement
or
You can be a coward and a weakling.
No deal neccesary but slam away if it helps you.
Ha,Ha,Ha,
Sorry , Bob ..... your trolling..
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Its nice that you find your cowardice to be funny, if you cant laugh at yourself who can you laugh at right Cindy?
Here's the thing though:
Sure, I never pass on an honest question, there have been a ton of posts lately, go ahead....
There's you Cindy.
So now youre faced with a dilemia, you can either own up to your own position and statement
or
You can be a coward and a weakling.
No deal neccesary but slam away if it helps you.
Ha,Ha,Ha,
Sorry , Bob .....
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Its nice that you find your cowardice to be funny, if you cant laugh at yourself who can you laugh at right Cindy?
Here's the thing though:
Sure, I never pass on an honest question, there have been a ton of posts lately, go ahead....
There's you Cindy.
So now youre faced with a dilemia, you can either own up to your own position and statement
or
You can be a coward and a weakling.
No deal neccesary but slam away if it helps you.
Ha,Ha,Ha,
Sorry , Bob .....
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I see. Please Cindy tell us your definition of "trolling".
In the meantime it stands that you are both a coward and a liar.
You can't even stand behind your own beliefe? How pathetic is that.
If you really believe in something say so, be a fucking man about it, stop playing these little bitch games.
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I see. Please Cindy tell us your definition of "trolling".
In the meantime it stands that you are both a coward and a liar.
You can't even stand behind your own beliefe? How pathetic is that.
If you really believe in something say so, be a fucking man about it, stop playing these little bitch games.
Ha,Ha, okay Bob, calm down, Why all the anger? Just try to ask nicely... Here is the answer to your question:
troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, absurd, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. Trolls can also be existing members of such a community that rarely post and often contribute no useful information to the thread, but instead make argumentative posts in an attempt to discredit another person, more often than not based on what they thought was said rather than what was actually said by the other person, concentrating almost exclusively on facts irrelevant to the point of the conversation, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.
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So basically you.
Sounds great, I guess I was mistaken about you not being a troll.
I stand corrected.
Now any chance youre going to man up and answer the question or does the claim that you are nothing more than a lying coward bitch troll stand?
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I could look it up, but I'll attempt my own definition just for shits & giggles..
A troll seeks to disrupt a forum in some way or another. This is not necessarily a bad thing depending on the environment that surrounds the troll. A troll almost always poses as something they are not..
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A definition that fits Cindy perfectly. He claims to be a concerned parent wanting to help children, instead hes a paid stoolie.
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He's suceeded in trolling you quite well, RB; no offense.
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damn last response was lost. eh, ill do it eventually.
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Here is one more I can think of:
PS doesn?t promote healthy social interaction mainly focuses on academics
TBS promotes/models and creates healthy relationships and builds self esteem.
I think PS has more flexibility built into their system than TBS's though as far as academics go.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Nothing healthier than confronting your peers 3 to 5 times a week and "flexible" academics which give a 1/2 an education
:rofl:
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He's suceeded in trolling you quite well, RB; no offense.
I agree. At first I thought he was nothing more than an arrogant dumbass who believed his own bullshit and was a lying coward. Come to find out he's nothing more than an arrogant dumbass who believes his own bullshit and is a lying coward, but gets paid for it.
Once again my hat's off to him.
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Here is one more I can think of:
PS doesn?t promote healthy social interaction mainly focuses on academics
TBS promotes/models and creates healthy relationships and builds self esteem.
I think PS has more flexibility built into their system than TBS's though as far as academics go.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Nothing healthier than confronting your peers 3 to 5 times a week and "flexible" academics which give a 1/2 an education
:rofl:
Oz Girl, I do see your point and agree that some of the TBS?s hold the therapeutic segment higher than the academics. Part of this is because the education for some parents is secondary based on their immediate situation. I have spoken to some parents whose child hasn?t been to school in months and refuses to go back, so any level of education would be better than what they are getting.
Although the education may not be at the same level as most traditional boarding schools, they do provide enough education to keep them on track and allow them to enter the college of their choice or career path they choose.
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Enough education. Maybe for an idiot like you but not for the kids who want to be prepared for college. TBS's are full of unqualified teachers, classes you cannot fail, and remedial material.
Please challenge me on this. Before you do though go answer the question. If you can.
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Well, you have to understand this from a parent?s perspective. If a parent has a child who is ?at risk? and is not attending school, the reason typically is buried somewhere in what is causing the ?at risk? behavior and if that can be dealt with and rooted out then the academics will fall back into line. So, with that being said the focus should be put on getting to the root cause of the problem and if the TBS can provide some academic structure (as a minimum) with at least enough to keep them going so they don?t fall behind then it would be beneficial to the child, in my opinion and when the problems are resolved the child can reenter his previous school (or new school) and continue on, which many do.
It would be overkill in my opinion to seek out and pay Harvard grads to teach at TBS when the kids focus is elsewhere. These teachers would serve a better purpose at a high end boarding school or someplace where the kids are presently self motivated to learn.
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Harvard grads? How about just college grads? You can try and spin it anyway you like, anyone who has ever been locked up in one of these places can tell you the education is garbage. Plain and simple.
Im interested to know though why you continue to believe you are qualified to speak on what parents need. Your qualifications have already been dismissed. Did you have something new to share with us? If not you should stop.
Oh and go answer the question.
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Well, you have to understand this from a parent?s perspective. If a parent has a child who is ?at risk? and is not attending school, the reason typically is buried somewhere in what is causing the ?at risk? behavior and if that can be dealt with and rooted out then the academics will fall back into line. So, with that being said the focus should be put on getting to the root cause of the problem and if the TBS can provide some academic structure (as a minimum) with at least enough to keep them going so they don?t fall behind then it would be beneficial to the child, in my opinion and when the problems are resolved the child can reenter his previous school (or new school) and continue on, which many do.
It would be overkill in my opinion to seek out and pay Harvard grads to teach at TBS when the kids focus is elsewhere. These teachers would serve a better purpose at a high end boarding school or someplace where the kids are presently self motivated to learn.
So, for $6000 month you get 1 private counseling session per week (if that), 3 group confrontation/humiliation sessions, and "some" academics with uncertified teachers. What a bargain!!
BTW,
Academics
The Academy at Swift River is a private college prepatory boarding School in Massachusetts for underachieving girls and boys struggling in a traditional academic environment. Swift River?s college prep high school progam prepares students to continue their education at leading colleges and universities.
http://www.swiftriver.com/defaultacademics.htm (http://www.swiftriver.com/defaultacademics.htm)
Given they aren't accredited after what, 10 years, and provide "some" education, might it be fraudulent to claim to be a "college prep high school program"?
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Harvard grads? How about just college grads? You can try and spin it anyway you like, anyone who has ever been locked up in one of these places can tell you the education is garbage. Plain and simple.
Im interested to know though why you continue to believe you are qualified to speak on what parents need. Your qualifications have already been dismissed. Did you have something new to share with us? If not you should stop.
Oh and go answer the question.
Bob, I am not going to keep answering the same questions over and over again. Please go back and find my response to this, it hasnt changed.
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Given they aren't accredited after what, 10 years, and provide "some" education, might it be fraudulent to claim to be a "college prep high school program"?
Only one way to find out, and that's to round up enough dissatisfied parents to see if it holds up in court! :tup:
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Deborah wrote:
Given they aren't accredited after what, 10 years, and provide "some" education, might it be fraudulent to claim to be a "college prep high school program"?
No, I don?t think fraudulent, although I agree saying "College prep" does make it more appealing. When I was talking to them it was made very clear what the academic level was. They work with the local school district and I believe someone mentioned they can hand out diplomas now. The kids in my daughters peer group and many other parents I spoke to had their kids take the SATs and PSATs and they did very well and applied and many got early acceptances into the colleges of their choice. So yes, the education isn?t up to the same standards as some of your better known boarding and some public schools but the kids don?t suffer academically, they move forward.
I don?t think ASR will ever get fully accredited in Ma.(in my opinion) Because that state has an MCAS requirement which requires each grade to pass a standardize test before the child can move onto the next grade. These kids come to ASR for a year and a half from all over the world and each area teaches at different rates and each state may offer different subjects each year so it would be almost impossible to standardize their academic system and place these requirements on kids from out of state unless they get a special certificate of some sort. I think working along with the local school district is a big step and provides some oversight.
I may be speaking out of line because I don?t know what ASR?s position is, but I do know that Ma has strict rules for each grade which may explain this.
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someone mentioned they can hand out diplomas now.
Who, exactly, mentioned this? Are they actually handing out diplomas?
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someone mentioned they can hand out diplomas now.
Who, exactly, mentioned this? Are they actually handing out diplomas?
Ya know, I am not sure...before I left on my trip last year someone mentioned they were doing this. This wasnt the case when my daughter was there.... be nice to find out for sure.
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Given they aren't accredited after what, 10 years, and provide "some" education, might it be fraudulent to claim to be a "college prep high school program"?
Only one way to find out, and that's to round up enough dissatisfied parents to see if it holds up in court! :tup:
Let's do it. I'm going to be working on NATSAP, so I can throw in ASR - they have the NATSAP seal of approval! :roll:
College preperatory unaccredited classes taught by unlicensed teachers? Naw, that don't sound funny...
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Well, you have to understand this from a parent?s perspective. If a parent has a child who is ?at risk? and is not attending school, the reason typically is buried somewhere in what is causing the ?at risk? behavior and if that can be dealt with and rooted out then the academics will fall back into line. So, with that being said the focus should be put on getting to the root cause of the problem and if the TBS can provide some academic structure (as a minimum) with at least enough to keep them going so they don?t fall behind then it would be beneficial to the child, in my opinion and when the problems are resolved the child can reenter his previous school (or new school) and continue on, which many do.
It would be overkill in my opinion to seek out and pay Harvard grads to teach at TBS when the kids focus is elsewhere. These teachers would serve a better purpose at a high end boarding school or someplace where the kids are presently self motivated to learn.
So, what you're saying is that ASR isn't really a "school" per se, but rather a residential treatment center for adolescents?
Why do they call it a "school" with no accreditation or licensed teachers?
I know why they can't call it an RTC - they have no qualified mental health practitioners and no license to treat anyone for anything - but why do they call it a "college preperatory boarding school" when clearly, by your own admission, they have completely subpar, unfailable, remedial classes that they don't even place focus upon?
Sounds like they're squirming around trying to avoid proper oversight that would be afforded a school or an RTC, but since they don't qualify as either they avoid even trying to become licensed or accredited. They know they can't pass muster either academically or treatment-wise.
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someone mentioned they can hand out diplomas now.
Who, exactly, mentioned this? Are they actually handing out diplomas?
Ya know, I am not sure...before I left on my trip last year someone mentioned they were doing this. This wasnt the case when my daughter was there.... be nice to find out for sure.
they are, in fact, legally barred from issuing state diplomas. If they are doing it, it is a crime and a tort. Cannon fodder for a huge lawsuit in my estimation if they are representing themselves as an entity that is allowed to issue diplomas.
This is why ASR "grads" have to get a GED before applying to or being accepted by colleges.
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:roll:
DJ! Don't give it away next time! I was trying to see if I could get some info out of him.. info used to shut the place down with.
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Bob, I am not going to keep answering the same questions over and over again. Please go back and find my response to this, it hasnt changed.
So you still believe that your kid going to a single school qualifies you to not only commentate on the entire industry but enables you to determine what information parents do or do not need.
???
Do you at least recognize that youre an arrogant asshole?
You know under your philosphy I could be a doctor, afterall Ive seen an episode or two of ER, so that should qualify me under your standards correct?
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:roll:
DJ! Don't give it away next time! I was trying to see if I could get some info out of him.. info used to shut the place down with.
No worries, Milk. There's plenty of public record information out there to shutter ASR (or at least cripple it). We just need some motivated people to start digging up the "facts" that ASR has presented to regulatory bodies in order to undermine oversight of its practices. Find those written submissions and you'll find enough false representation to, at a minimum, organize a lawsuit or even to get the state to start up a full-blown investigation into exactly how ASR provides casework services and unlicensed therapy at a "school." Blow the whistle, Milk!
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This is why ASR "grads" have to get a GED before applying to or being accepted by colleges.
All the kids I knew would take time off from ASR to visit colleges, try to get early acceptance (if that was the stage they were in) and then finish up and get their diploma at home. Most kids were transfering their credits back to their home school...... if ASR is able to give diplomas that would be a leg up to the kids. Does anyone know if this is true?
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:roll:
DJ! Don't give it away next time! I was trying to see if I could get some info out of him.. info used to shut the place down with.
No worries, Milk. There's plenty of public record information out there to shutter ASR (or at least cripple it). We just need some motivated people to start digging up the "facts" that ASR has presented to regulatory bodies in order to undermine oversight of its practices. Find those written submissions and you'll find enough false representation to, at a minimum, organize a lawsuit or even to get the state to start up a full-blown investigation into exactly how ASR provides casework services and unlicensed therapy at a "school." Blow the whistle, Milk!
Any light we can bring to this would be great. If there are holes we can expose them, bring it to their attention and get them resolved.
If they are deficient in any area we should find it and put it under a microscope. This is what makes schools improve themselves and make it better for the next group of kids. If the state isn?t doing it then the parents typically step in and voice their concerns.
I know when my daughter attended, a group of parents got together and spoke to ASR about some of the restrictions, rules and home visits. ASR listened to our concerns, expressed their opinions and changes where made upon a consensus. We were able to affect some changes which benefited the next group of kids. What we need to do is realize that any organization or business is an ever evolving entity and constant input and feed back is needed to keep it growing and viable. If there are state regulations that are not being followed then we need to understand why or if there are special circumstances and gain some understanding.
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Most kids were transfering their credits back to their home school......
I'm not sure how this is possible. Why would any bona-fide school accept credits from an unaccredited treatment center without licensed teachers? Doesn't pass the smell test.
Milk, this may be another avenue for you to pursue with ASR. Like AIR and HLA have learned, lying to the state to avoid oversight or to issue diplomas is a serious no-no.
If schools are accepting "credits" from ASR, it seems they must necessarily have been lied to as to ASR's status as a "school."
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This is what makes schools improve themselves and make it better for the next group of kids.
This just isn't true. Invariably, and the public record supports this, these places will shut down, move, change their name and open an entirely new facility where regulations do not exist before they will "improve themselves" for "the kids."
TheWho's notion just isn't supported by facts.
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This is what makes schools improve themselves and make it better for the next group of kids.
This just isn't true. Invariably, and the public record supports this, these places will shut down, move, change their name and open an entirely new facility where regulations do not exist before they will "improve themselves" for "the kids."
TheWho's notion just isn't supported by facts.
I have seen it happen first hand. I am sure , DJ, there are some who wouldn?t want to adhere, but I dont think that is the norm. They all have the kids best interest at heart, but sometimes deficiencies need to be brought forward to get their attention. Either way this can only result in improvements and make it better for the kids.
Oversight is good for us parents and the kids, but it is a pain in the butt for the ones having to adhere to all the rules and regs and unless someones insists (like the state) it isnt going to happen, I assure you.
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They all have the kids best interest at heart
I know first-hand that this is wildly inaccurate. Who, why would you make an absolutist statement like this when you know you have no way to support it, not to mention that you don't know any of the people running programs except at ASR, where you showered praise upon a child abusing, drunk driving manslaughterer, Rudy Bentz? Your perception of the state of affairs in this industry is pure fantasy. You've never had inside access to any facility as a prisoner or employee, so you really just don't know what you're talking about - you only know the brochures.
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I have seen it happen first hand
I wish I could take your word for it. Unfortunately, due to all of your past fabricating, I can't take anything you say seriously or put any weight on it. For me (or almost anyone else reading for that matter) you virtually would have to provide third-party authenticated video and signed affadavits from witnesses before I could lend you any credibility - you've just scored too many ground-zero credibility hits on yourself at this point to be believed.
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I have seen it happen first hand
I wish I could take your word for it. Unfortunately, due to all of your past fabricating, I can't take anything you say seriously or put any weight on it. For me (or almost anyone else reading for that matter) you virtually would have to provide third-party authenticated video and signed affadavits from witnesses before I could lend you any credibility - you've just scored too many ground-zero credibility hits on yourself at this point to be believed.
All we have is how reliable we are and it goes both ways, I would need the same from you.... it is unfortunate, though.
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Well, there is an important distinction to be made here: You have been caught lying over and again, changing your posts post facto to try to win arguments and relentlessly trolling while anonymous.
See, that's the difference. You have no personal credibilty because of your own behavior and you have no academic or professional credibility because you have no understanding of the subject matter. It's the double-whammy to your believablity - you have none.
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According to their website, they are issuing diplomas:
Human Ecology, the course of emotional growth work that all students follow, also carries academic credit. 26 credits are required for a student to earn a high school diploma from ASR, and must include four years of English; three years each of Mathematics (through Algebra 2), Laboratory Science, and Social Sciences (including U.S. History).
The School operates under the approval of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Department of Education through the Mohawk Trails Regional School District, and is a candidate for accreditation through the New England Association of Schools and Colleges.
What does "through the Mohawk Trails Regional SD" mean? HLA only had to report the number of kids they had enrolled on a quarterly basis. If that is what this consists of, ASR is being deceptive with this statement.
Mass requirements are inconsequential if the program is accredited through NEASC. Anyone willing to research NEASC's requirements and compile a list of things they should know when considering ASR's accreditation?
The Academic Program at the Academy at Swift River presents a challenging college preparatory high school curriculum to young men and women in grades 9 through 12.
Sounds fraudulent to me. Shouldn't they speak the truth as you did Who. Kids will get "some" education, but the focus in on our special brand of "treatment" for 16-19 months.
Nation's First Study of Private Residential Treatment Programs Shows: Teens Improve at Aspen Education Group
Why This May Be Important To You: Aspen?s residential programs provided more than just hope for these teens and their families. Teens who have not responded to other treatments improve during treatment at Aspen?s private residential treatment programs.
ASR, parents, and everyone in this discussion knows what ASR is. When it's to their advantage, they even admit it. They are an upscale RTC. The state of Mass is not protecting kids, just as Ga didn't in the case of HLA. They are sanctioned by law to determine the "services provided" and license a program if they are providing "treatment". The only reason ASR remains unlicensed and unmonitored by the state is because no one has taken the initiative to make this an issue. In the case of HLA, it took multiple attempts and appealing all the way to the Governor.
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I have seen it happen first hand.
You also claimed to have attended a secret meeting of fornits posters, you claimed to have spoken a captain who threw me off his ship, you claim to be in regular contact with multiple posters on fornits who believe in your drivel, you claimed there wasnt a problem with HLA not having a school nurse, and you claimed there were only 10,000 psychologist in the US.
Sorry Cindy, you have zero credibility.
I am sure , DJ, there are some who wouldn?t want to adhere, but I dont think that is the norm.
How would you know this?
They all have the kids best interest at heart
They all have the kids best interest at heart? All of them? Change that quickly Cindy, very quickly.
but sometimes deficiencies need to be brought forward to get their attention. Either way this can only result in improvements and make it better for the kids.
What if the school doesnt see the need to change an abusive policy?
Oversight is good for us parents and the kids, but it is a pain in the butt for the ones having to adhere to all the rules and regs and unless someones insists (like the state) it isnt going to happen, I assure you.
This contridicts your earlier comment, if the schools truly had the kids best interest at heart they would embrace the regulation and oversight. As it stands many of them avoid regulation like the plauge and claim they "self regulate".
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All we have is how reliable we are and it goes both ways, I would need the same from you.... it is unfortunate, though.
Here's the thing though, we can prove that youve lied on several occasions or refused to acknowledge when wrong despite how obvious it was.
You cannot do the same thing to Dysfunction or most of the anti-program posters on here.
Our credibility with parents is solid, yours is in the gutter. For that you have no one to blame but yourself.
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Well, ASR is hitting what I call the "magical threshold." It seems to me that these places get away with rampant fraud for about ten years until the weight of the evidence supports a state investigation.
For anyone looking to shutter this place, this is the logical start-point: Is it a school or a treatment center?
If they are calling themnselves a "school" then they must be accredited and must not provide casework or treatment planning. It's obvious that ASR does both and therefore cannot be a "school."
This is what took us over two years to prove to georgia ORS, but once the evidence was provided it was only a matter of days until HLA was ordered to get licensed to provide services, quit providing services or cease and desist completely.
Same deal with AIR. It is no longer called an "academy" - it's now called a "Behavior Modification Center" by New York State.
I'd go to the regulating agencies in Mass first and follow up with the Attorney General's office. You'd be surprised at how swift (no pun intended) action will be taken once authorities are afforded the opportunity to review documents and interview employees/prisoners. It happens quick.
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According to their website, they are issuing diplomas:
I thought I read it somewhere
What does "through the Mohawk Trails Regional SD" mean?
I believe that is the School District
Sounds fraudulent to me. Shouldn't they speak the truth as you did Who. Kids will get "some" education, but the focus in on our special brand of "treatment" for 16-19 months.
Sounds like they have beefed up there academics. I had heard they built a new building, so they probably expanded. All the kids that are perusing college do get in I believe.
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I thought I read it somewhere
How can they be handing out diplomas if they arent accredited? Under that rationale I could write out a PhD on a piece of toilet paper and start calling myself Dr. Bruce correct?
Sounds like they have beefed up there academics. I had heard they built a new building, so they probably expanded. All the kids that are perusing college do get in I believe.
A new building somehow means their academics are better? Have they hired licensed teachers? Are they accredited? Do the kids still have to earn a GED in order to get into college after getting a worthless diploma from this place?
........
Sorry Cindy, new buildings just dont cut it, all theyve apparently done is increased the space for more substandard education. They can build a football arena if they want to and have classes in that, it wont change a thing but bring in more suckers like yourself.
"Oh look Honey, they just painted the wall, you know that means this is a great place!"
Idiot.
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??.. but once the evidence was provided it was only a matter of days until HLA was ordered to get licensed to provide services, quit providing services or cease and desist completely.
Exactly what I have been saying all along. The schools need to be forced into oversight, no one in their right mind is going to volunteer for it !! just like we all need to be forced to get a drivers license, does it make us better drivers?maybe/maybe not, but the regulation is good for everyone. The schools feel they are doing a great job and probably are but it takes an outside force to get oversight and in the end it is good for the kids!!!
This will make for a better school and give them one more thing to write on their shingle, it?s a win, win?.
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Exactly what I have been saying all along. The schools need to be forced into oversight, no one in their right mind is going to volunteer for it !! just like we all need to be forced to get a drivers license, does it make us better drivers?maybe/maybe not, but the regulation is good for everyone. The schools feel they are doing a great job and probably are but it takes an outside force to get oversight and in the end it is good for the kids!!!
This will make for a better school and give them one more thing to write on their shingle, it?s a win, win?.
Yet what you still dont get idiot is that this goes against what you and they are both saying. If the kids safety and best interest was really at the forefront of these places they would do this on their own. It wouldnt even be a question they would simply be forthright with the state from the get go and allow regulation and oversight because as you say, "It is good for the kids." Instead these places avoid regulation like the plauge, lie to the state, and search for any possible loop hole to avoid regulation. Why? Because they dont give a shit about the kids, its all about the money.
Thats what youre too stupid and too blind to understand.
One more thing.
I'm interested to see if you can base this on anything other than what you normally pull out of your ass.
The schools feel they are doing a great job and probably are
What qualifies you to make that assertion? What is it based on?
Looking forward to watching you evade things as per your cowardly custom.
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??.. but once the evidence was provided it was only a matter of days until HLA was ordered to get licensed to provide services, quit providing services or cease and desist completely.
Exactly what I have been saying all along. The schools need to be forced into oversight, no one in their right mind is going to volunteer for it !! just like we all need to be forced to get a drivers license, does it make us better drivers?maybe/maybe not, but the regulation is good for everyone. The schools feel they are doing a great job and probably are but it takes an outside force to get oversight and in the end it is good for the kids!!!
This will make for a better school and give them one more thing to write on their shingle, it?s a win, win?.
Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who? How can they claim to care about the kids and avoid regulations that would prohibit certain aspects of their abusive "treatment"?
A friend of a friend lasted less than a week at Aspen's Stone Mountain School. He was very distressed by the "treatment" he witnessed. A seasoned staff justified it by saying that it was better that the kids have their Wills broken gently there than elsewhere.
Funny, we don't read anything about their will being broken in program literature. Guess that would just be too harsh for even the most angry and sadistic parent.
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Guess that would just be too harsh for even the most angry and sadistic parent.
Not for Cindy it wouldnt.
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TheWho said:
"Sounds like they have beefed up there academics."
Oh, the irony.
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If the kids safety and best interest was really at the forefront of these places they would do this on their own. It wouldnt even be a question they would simply be forthright with the state from the get go and allow regulation and oversight because as you say, "It is good for the kids." Instead these places avoid regulation like the plauge, lie to the state, and search for any possible loop hole to avoid regulation. Why? Because they dont give a shit about the kids, its all about the money.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!
If the obviousness of this is lost on TheWho, he's in worse shape than I had estimated earlier...
Robert, you're right on. It's axiomatic that if the best interest of the kids were the driving force behind program policies that there would be complete transparency to parents and the state. In fact, it's the opposite.
If programs like ASR are so good, then why the heck are they hiding what they do from every single interested party?
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Deborah wrote:
Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who? How can they claim to care about the kids and avoid regulations that would prohibit certain aspects of their abusive "treatment"?
Yes but oversight applies to all, not just schools who are trying to hide something. If a kid doesn?t want to take his drivers test it doesn?t mean he is a bad driver. Sure they could be hiding something or they may not be. If they are hiding something they would not want to be regulated and if they are not hiding anything they would not want to be regulated either.
I don?t call OSHA up to come inspect my place every 3 months. If they call me and say they are going to miss their normal inspection I don?t get upset. I adhere to all the rules I don?t have time to have someone walk them around, take a man off the job. We have nothing to hide but its a lot of work and for us it is no value added because we do a good job anyway.
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Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who?
Oh, Deb, you make me laugh. If you were talking about the "make a referral to ASR despite all the evidence that they are abusive to children" movement, TheWho would spearhead it!
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If a kid doesn?t want to take his drivers test it doesn?t mean he is a bad driver
Yes but if he wants to follow the law he will, good driver or not.
Whatsmore, he should not advertise himself as a licensed or obeying the law if he isnt.
Yet you seem to have no problem with these places doing just that.
More proof that you are just a brainwashed puppet.
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Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who? How can they claim to care about the kids and avoid regulations that would prohibit certain aspects of their abusive "treatment"?
Let me give you a different example:
If DSS called you up and said they are starting a new procedure and would like to come over your house every other Thursday and talk to your kids, inspect their rooms etc. (maybe 2 hours max) You would need to take time off of work to do this and get the kids home.
If you found out about this would you be the first in line to sign up?
If someone told you if you told DSS ?No? they would not call you back for another year because they are short staffed and you could put it off, would you?
By accepting, would this make you a better parent and benefit the kids?
By saying no thanks or avoiding it, would this make you a bad parent and hurt your kids?
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No, the question is "Would you lie and say you have no kids?" or "Would you lie and say you don't provide parenting at your home, just lodging?"
Because this is what TBS's do: They lie to regulating bodies for the express purpose of avoiding their scrutiny which would necessarily lead to regulation.
Bad analogy, Who. No surprises there!
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Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who? How can they claim to care about the kids and avoid regulations that would prohibit certain aspects of their abusive "treatment"?
Let me give you a different example:
If DSS called you up and said they are starting a new procedure and would like to come over your house every other Thursday and talk to your kids, inspect their rooms etc. (maybe 2 hours max) You would need to take time off of work to do this and get the kids home.
If you found out about this would you be the first in line to sign up?
If someone told you if you told DSS ?No? they would not call you back for another year because they are short staffed and you could put it off, would you?
By accepting, would this make you a better parent and benefit the kids?
By saying no thanks or avoiding it, would this make you a bad parent and hurt your kids?
Avoiding the questions yourself, just like you claim schools do to regulation..... Hmmmm
See, DJ, by avoiding my questions should that make me suspicious that there is some abuse in your household? Does it make you a bad parent?
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By saying no thanks or avoiding it, would this make you a bad parent and hurt your kids?
For fuck's sake, Who, these are our kids in our home.
How in the world do you draw a parallel with this scenario and "TBS" where kids are often forcibly removed from their homes to be sent to another state to be watched and raised by strangers?
Doesn't it stand to reason that if these strangers are watching and raising our kids in exchange for fees that someone should be watching them? That they should be accountable for their actions? That they deliver the services promised? That they are operating in accordance with the law?
You're out in left field here, Who.
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You're an idiot, he's pointing out to you that youre using a faulty analogy, youre just too stupid to understand.
Here I'll answer your stupid and questions and then improve upon your faulty analogy and maybe then you can understand, but I doubt it.
Let me give you a different example:
If DSS called you up and said they are starting a new procedure and would like to come over your house every other Thursday and talk to your kids, inspect their rooms etc. (maybe 2 hours max) You would need to take time off of work to do this and get the kids home.
I wouldnt like it, but if the consequences could mean losing my kids of course I would do it without a moments hesitation. You not giving a shit about your own kids or anyone elses wouldnt understand this.
If you found out about this would you be the first in line to sign up?
First? I dont know about that, as I said I probably wouldnt like it, but I would still sign up regardless.
If someone told you if you told DSS ?No? they would not call you back for another year because they are short staffed and you could put it off, would you?
No, because eventually they will catch up with me and that would make the consequences that much worse.
By accepting, would this make you a better parent and benefit the kids?
Yes.
By saying no thanks or avoiding it, would this make you a bad parent and hurt your kids?
Yes.
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Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who? How can they claim to care about the kids and avoid regulations that would prohibit certain aspects of their abusive "treatment"?
Let me give you a different example:
If DSS called you up and said they are starting a new procedure and would like to come over your house every other Thursday and talk to your kids, inspect their rooms etc. (maybe 2 hours max) You would need to take time off of work to do this and get the kids home.
If you found out about this would you be the first in line to sign up?
If someone told you if you told DSS ?No? they would not call you back for another year because they are short staffed and you could put it off, would you?
By accepting, would this make you a better parent and benefit the kids?
By saying no thanks or avoiding it, would this make you a bad parent and hurt your kids?
Avoiding the questions yourself, just like you claim schools do to regulation..... Hmmmm
See, DJ, by avoiding my questions should that make me suspicious that there is some abuse in your household? Does it make you a bad parent?
What the hell are you talking about? Those questions are idiotic and I addressed them in my previous post.
See, your scenario is hypothetical and the chances of its transpiring are zero.
In my scenario, exact, real world observations are used, not some hypothetical mumbo-jumbo.
What you're asking is like me asking you "When are you going to stop beating your grandmother?"
I've seen before how disjointed and detached from reality your thinking is, but now you say that because I didn't answer one of your lame hypotheticals quickly enough for your pleasure that I abuse children in my home?
You're fucking crazy.
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Avoiding the questions yourself, just like you claim schools do to regulation
One, I answered your question. Two, I never said there was avoidance of questioning by TBS's; I said they lie when questioned. They have to answer/respond to inquiries or risk a full investigation, so they lie to regulators.
Once again you have used a completely retarded analogy by which to draw a false conclusion and to launch an ad hominem by calling me a child abuser. Let's not forget who sent his kid to be abused by proxy now, Who. If I were going to abuse someone, I'd have the balls to do it myself, not hire some treatment thugs to do it for me.
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Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who? How can they claim to care about the kids and avoid regulations that would prohibit certain aspects of their abusive "treatment"?
Let me give you a different example:
If DSS called you up and said they are starting a new procedure and would like to come over your house every other Thursday and talk to your kids, inspect their rooms etc. (maybe 2 hours max) You would need to take time off of work to do this and get the kids home.
If you found out about this would you be the first in line to sign up?
If someone told you if you told DSS ?No? they would not call you back for another year because they are short staffed and you could put it off, would you?
By accepting, would this make you a better parent and benefit the kids?
By saying no thanks or avoiding it, would this make you a bad parent and hurt your kids?
Avoiding the questions yourself, just like you claim schools do to regulation..... Hmmmm
See, DJ, by avoiding my questions should that make me suspicious that there is some abuse in your household? Does it make you a bad parent?
What the hell are you talking about? Those questions are idiotic and I addressed them in my previous post.
See, your scenario is hypothetical and the chances of its transpiring are zero.
In my scenario, exact, real world observations are used, not some hypothetical mumbo-jumbo.
What you're asking is like me asking you "When are you going to stop beating your grandmother?"
I've seen before how disjointed and detached from reality your thinking is, but now you say that because I didn't answer one of your lame hypotheticals quickly enough for your pleasure that I abuse children in my home?
You're fucking crazy.
Ha,Ha, so you get mad and don?t answer my questions and avoid them, resort to other questions that you like better (avoid regulation? I see a parallel as do the readers). I should assume you don?t want DSS to come over to your house to visit then. Should we assume abuse?
I think I made my point, you just acted out what the TBS go thru. They may avoid regulation (as you did my questions and tried to steer us to your questions) and that comes to my point.
Does it make them a bad school or does it conclude they are trying to hide something?
No
Does the fact that you evaded my questions about DSS coming to visit you make you a bad parent?
No we cant conclude that either.
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Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who? How can they claim to care about the kids and avoid regulations that would prohibit certain aspects of their abusive "treatment"?
Let me give you a different example:
If DSS called you up and said they are starting a new procedure and would like to come over your house every other Thursday and talk to your kids, inspect their rooms etc. (maybe 2 hours max) You would need to take time off of work to do this and get the kids home.
If you found out about this would you be the first in line to sign up?
If someone told you if you told DSS ?No? they would not call you back for another year because they are short staffed and you could put it off, would you?
By accepting, would this make you a better parent and benefit the kids?
By saying no thanks or avoiding it, would this make you a bad parent and hurt your kids?
I take your non response as a No, you won't be advocating for ASR to be properly licensed and regulated by the state, because you believe it would add no value?
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Now let's create a more accurate analogy.
Let's say you not having any children of your own decide you want to raise other peoples kids.
So you buy a house in a neighborhood thats full of people doing the same thing, many of whom have gotten into trouble for abusing children. A number of you get together and form a neighborhood association designed to make sure that no one is abusing any kids, in essence you "self-regulate". There is no real regulation but its the thought that counts right?
You decide to tell the state that you dont have any kids because you dont want them poking their nose in your business, but at the same time you tell the federal gov't youve got a whole boat load of them all so can get tax breaks and other such funds designed for people with children.
At the same time while youre telling the state you dont have any kids youre telling anyone who might be looking to off load their kids that you do. You go so far as to give presents to friends that will refer people to you. You eventually decide to advertise telling anyone and everyone (other than the state) that you take kids and you follow the letter of the law and are licensed, and safe, and give these kids and education, and on and on and on.
Eventually some of the kids get too old and leave your house, or their parents come back and get them. Some of those kids start claiming that you abused them, that you mistreated them. In response you decide to sue anyone who says anything bad about you. You decide people are not allowed to say bad things about you.
After enough kids have complained the state finally gets wind of what youre doing and comes down to see you.
"Get properly licensed", they say, "Or we're going to close you down."
"What all does being licensed involve?" you ask.
"Well, it basically means that you have to acknowledge to us that youre taking these kids. It also means that you have to stop doing alot of the things youre doing."
"Like what?"
"Well, namely the things these kids are citing as abuse. Youre going to have to fill out some forms and pay a $30.00 licensing fee once a year. Once every six months someone from our office will come by and make sure everything is running okay and none of the kids are being abused. We're also going to have someone here fulltime that you dont have to pay for, but will stay on in case any of the kids feel they are being mistreated. I know you have these kids best interest at heart and you'll have no problem agreeing to all of this. Right? "
How about it Cindy?
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Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who? How can they claim to care about the kids and avoid regulations that would prohibit certain aspects of their abusive "treatment"?
Let me give you a different example:
If DSS called you up and said they are starting a new procedure and would like to come over your house every other Thursday and talk to your kids, inspect their rooms etc. (maybe 2 hours max) You would need to take time off of work to do this and get the kids home.
If you found out about this would you be the first in line to sign up?
If someone told you if you told DSS ?No? they would not call you back for another year because they are short staffed and you could put it off, would you?
By accepting, would this make you a better parent and benefit the kids?
By saying no thanks or avoiding it, would this make you a bad parent and hurt your kids?
I take your non response as a No, you won't be advocating for ASR to be properly licensed and regulated by the state, because you believe it would add no value?
Sorry, I didnt respond.... Yes, I would advocate for licensing and regulation where required. It is a win, win situation for kids and parents.
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Good, so you'll lead that movement, Who? How can they claim to care about the kids and avoid regulations that would prohibit certain aspects of their abusive "treatment"?
Let me give you a different example:
If DSS called you up and said they are starting a new procedure and would like to come over your house every other Thursday and talk to your kids, inspect their rooms etc. (maybe 2 hours max) You would need to take time off of work to do this and get the kids home.
If you found out about this would you be the first in line to sign up?
If someone told you if you told DSS ?No? they would not call you back for another year because they are short staffed and you could put it off, would you?
By accepting, would this make you a better parent and benefit the kids?
By saying no thanks or avoiding it, would this make you a bad parent and hurt your kids?
Avoiding the questions yourself, just like you claim schools do to regulation..... Hmmmm
See, DJ, by avoiding my questions should that make me suspicious that there is some abuse in your household? Does it make you a bad parent?
What the hell are you talking about? Those questions are idiotic and I addressed them in my previous post.
See, your scenario is hypothetical and the chances of its transpiring are zero.
In my scenario, exact, real world observations are used, not some hypothetical mumbo-jumbo.
What you're asking is like me asking you "When are you going to stop beating your grandmother?"
I've seen before how disjointed and detached from reality your thinking is, but now you say that because I didn't answer one of your lame hypotheticals quickly enough for your pleasure that I abuse children in my home?
You're fucking crazy.
Ha,Ha, so you get mad and don?t answer my questions and avoid them, resort to other questions that you like better (avoid regulation? I see a parallel as do the readers). I should assume you don?t want DSS to come over to your house to visit then. Should we assume abuse?
I think I made my point, you just acted out what the TBS go thru. They may avoid regulation (as you did my questions and tried to steer us to your questions) and that comes to my point.
Does it make them a bad school or does it conclude they are trying to hide something?
No
Does the fact that you evaded my questions about DSS coming to visit you make you a bad parent?
No we cant conclude that either.
I'm not mad. You don't make me mad. I just made the observation that you're fucking crazy. Which I firmly believe is actually true and not just rhetoric.
I do genuinely believe there is something very, very wrong with you mentally. Maybe adult ADD and a healthy dose of the stupids to go with it...? Certainly narcissistic and disorganized thinking, short term memory defecits (can't remember who wrote what in less than five minutes) and just general lack of education to boot.
BTW, I thought you were going to have your daughter read the forum, too? What happened to that?
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So then why do these places avoid it Cindy? If its true as you claim that they have the kids best interest at heart why would they avoid regulation?
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DJ, You dont need to answer my questions now. You proved the point I was trying to make.
The actual avoiding regulations doesnt make any school bad or abusive the same as you avoiding my questions or DSS doesnt make you abusive towards your children.
Answering them now is a moot point.......
My daughter can come any time she wants.
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You say that now because theyve been answered and your stupid analogy has been put to shame.
Dysfunction didnt respond because it was a stupid analogy that is so far from reality it made no sense. The TBS's dont tell the state what they really are because they are more interested in making money then the well being of children.
No need to respond the point has been made.
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DJ, You dont need to answer my questions now. You proved the point I was trying to make.
The actual avoiding regulations doesnt make any school bad or abusive the same as you avoiding my questions or DSS doesnt make you abusive towards your children.
Answering them now is a mute point.......
My daughter can come any time she wants.
Once again, the question is not avoidance of questioning. No facilities are capable of doing this and continuing to operate. The question is "Why do they lie to regulators when questioned?" Answer that one, please.
And how is your daughter going to find the site you so carefully hide from her? I mean, you've never told her what you do here, so how would she just "come any time she wants"?
What's a "mute point"? I think the word you're looking for is "moot." That graduate degree must have been from a diploma mill... Oy.
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DJ, You dont need to answer my questions now. You proved the point I was trying to make.
The actual avoiding regulations doesnt make any school bad or abusive the same as you avoiding my questions or DSS doesnt make you abusive towards your children.
Answering them now is a mute point.......
My daughter can come any time she wants.
Once again, the question is not avoidance of questioning. No facilities are capable fo doing this and continuing to operate. The question is "Why do they lie when questioned?" Answer that one, please.
And how is your daughter going to find the site you so carefully hide from her? I mean, you've never told her what you do here, so how would she just "come any time she wants"?
My point was made....lets move on.
I am not aware that they lie when questioned...... my daughter can enter this site when she likes. I dont control her movements
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Your point was lost, and everyone knows it, so yes let's move on.
You are not aware that they lie when questioned? Thats because you don't want to know. You avoid the truth about these places like they avoid regulation.
A school in Northern Georgia had ORS sent in three times. Each time the school claimed there was no therapy, they claimed to be just a run of the mill boarding school, despite all their numerous advertisements to the contrary.
Thats just one school among many, these places deny what they are to the state up and down to avoid regulation. When it comes to advertise however its a very different story.
Justify this for me.
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No, you just hide from her what you do here because you know as well as I that she will be horrified to find out what her father really is...
And why would you lie again and say you're not aware that facilities lie to regulators when you are very familiar with the cases of HLA, AIR and WWASPS? You already know that these facilites have been caught lying to regulators and are now facing the penalties for so doing. You've been educated on this subject many times by me personally and provided links to news stories delineating such.
Why would you now claim ignorance of these facts?
That credibility just took another big hit, buddy. You lie straight through your teeth repeatedly and with forethought.
The problem is you're not smart enough to get away with it - you get caught lying all the time, over and over.
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Awwww Cindy cant respond. :(
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What's a "mute point"? I think the word you're looking for is "moot." That graduate degree must have been from a diploma mill... Oy.
I have been going a mile a minute on some of the responses
and Yea, I meant, "Moot point"...tough crowd......, see there you go again discarding someone totally and their degree because of a minor flaw. This is why I dont rely on your conclusions or judgement of character, DJ.
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Dont cry because youve been owned Cindy. You painted yourself into a corner and it came back to bite you in the ass.
Accept it and move on.
As to your opinion of DJ or anyone else on here, remember youve been now proven to be not only a weakling and a troll, but a liar as well.
You have no credibility whatsoever, none. Whatever designs you had, whatever your agenda was, it will not happen as a result of your actions on fornits. Never again will anyone take you seriously on here. Not us, not parents, not even other programmies.
Youve been burned and you have no one to blame but yourself.
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(http://http://www.load.dk/fun/bil_lpic/owned.jpg)
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Your point was lost, and everyone knows it, so yes let's move on.
You are not aware that they lie when questioned? Thats because you don't want to know. You avoid the truth about these places like they avoid regulation.
A school in Northern Georgia had ORS sent in three times. Each time the school claimed there was no therapy, they claimed to be just a run of the mill boarding school, despite all their numerous advertisements to the contrary.
Thats just one school among many, these places deny what they are to the state up and down to avoid regulation. When it comes to advertise however its a very different story.
Justify this for me.
Benchmark does the same exact thing... Getting anything done about it, however... Well you try dealing with government beaurocracy and/or incompetance and/or corruption and/or special interests. God damn. it's like pulling teeth. Shit. you know how much it took for the Georgia govt inspectors to get off their fat asses...
*dee dee dee*
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Here is one more I can think of:
PS doesn?t promote healthy social interaction mainly focuses on academics
TBS promotes/models and creates healthy relationships and builds self esteem.
I think PS has more flexibility built into their system than TBS's though as far as academics go.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Nothing healthier than confronting your peers 3 to 5 times a week and "flexible" academics which give a 1/2 an education
:rofl:
Oz Girl, I do see your point and agree that some of the TBS?s hold the therapeutic segment higher than the academics. Part of this is because the education for some parents is secondary based on their immediate situation. I have spoken to some parents whose child hasn?t been to school in months and refuses to go back, so any level of education would be better than what they are getting.
Although the education may not be at the same level as most traditional boarding schools, they do provide enough education to keep them on track and allow them to enter the college of their choice or career path they choose.
Oh Who i think you only took half of my point there. I was saying that both the academics were half hearted and the thrapy shitty. A big part of school is socialization. Wider society does not spill their most mortifying secrets to their peers and rivals. Nor does any regular adult ot teen walk around telling people what they think their issues are with "loving confrontation" because ti makes them look like freaks. Wehn these kids are eventually released into highschool or worse the drunken debauched 4 years that is college they are likely to be pretty lonely and miseable because nobody likes being told how to run their life and too much sharing is anti social.
Moreover you mentioned all the things kids are not exposed to and made "safe" from at TBS. Why is it a good thing to institutionalize kids in a bubble with a fear of the world? Sooner or later these kids will be confronted with sex drugs and life in general. If the world of highschool is so terrible and dangerous why not lock them in the basement for free?
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Oz Girl wrote:
Oh Who i think you only took half of my point there. I was saying that both the academics were half hearted and the thrapy shitty. A big part of school is socialization. Wider society does not spill their most mortifying secrets to their peers and rivals. Nor does any regular adult ot teen walk around telling people what they think their issues are with "loving confrontation" because ti makes them look like freaks.
The therapy seemed to be in-line with what she was receiving at home. It was a good hand off when she got there. The kids did have socialization, maybe more so than at home, but it was with a limited amount of kids. Typically kids don?t share their secrets to everyone in high school, I agree, but these kids are there for a reason and have issues that need to be addressed. The sharing of their experiences brought them all closer together as friends
Wehn these kids are eventually released into highschool or worse the drunken debauched 4 years that is college they are likely to be pretty lonely and miseable because nobody likes being told how to run their life and too much sharing is anti social.
Yes, I agree the transition back into the real world was difficult for my daughter (I called it the slingshot effect) . She needed to go back and check out everything she missed and after she was done she moved on with her life. But we approached the school with this and they addressed the concern and I believe it is better now.
Moreover you mentioned all the things kids are not exposed to and made "safe" from at TBS. Why is it a good thing to institutionalize kids in a bubble with a fear of the world? Sooner or later these kids will be confronted with sex drugs and life in general. If the world of highschool is so terrible and dangerous why not lock them in the basement for free?
This is a good question, most kids do fine out in the unsafe world and make good decisions, thrive and have a healthy life. But a very few become ?At risk?, have difficulty thriving and need help and protection so they can grow and thrive. Once they have the tools and skills or have resolved their issues they go back into the unsafe world of sex and drugs, violence etc. ,like the rest of us, and hopefully handle it in a safer manner (more mature may be a better word).
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No matter how many times you say it, it will never be true.
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TheWho said:
But a very few become ?At risk?, have difficulty thriving and need help and protection so they can grow and thrive. Once they have the tools and skills or have resolved their issues they go back into the unsafe world of sex and drugs, violence etc. ,like the rest of us, and hopefully handle it in a safer manner
This is so laden with program-speak. Did you quote the brochure, Who?
The more you write the less I believe anything you say. You already admitted referring kids to programs and half-way admitted you take money for it. I think you're just a marketer getting paid to troll and make referrals. Probably don't even have a kid at all. There are just too many shady things about you, too many proven lies and too much that just doesn't add up...
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but these kids are there for a reason and have issues that need to be addressed
You know this how?
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If a kid is only allowed to make good choices without risk of their parents incarcerating them for 18 months, then they are not allowed to really live in the real world at all.
Have you ever stopped to think that the threat of one of these places is what stops kids who get into trouble from seeking help? If i were developing a dependency on drugs I would prolly not go to the family if I thought it would land me in a TBS. It is the "my parents will go postal" factor that encourages kids to lie.
If you actually think that the kind of "socialisation" that Dave Marcus outlined with your daughters school is healthy you are a strange man. In life ppl choose their friends based on whether they like them. A shared love of a common interest like say card games is not considered an unhealthy avoidance tactic.
At TBS anytime a kid becomes close to anyone person they are "banned" so that they can spend hours spilling their guts to random aquaintances. In the event that they god forbid develop any kind of romance, it is seen as some bizarre cardinal sin.
Tell me who how would you like to have to confess what you and the wife got up to on saturday night to all of your colleagues? How would you like the boss and your parents to grill you about it for hours on end?
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Oz Girl wrote:
If a kid is only allowed to make good choices without risk of their parents incarcerating them for 18 months, then they are not allowed to really live in the real world at all.
Have you ever stopped to think that the threat of one of these places is what stops kids who get into trouble from seeking help? If i were developing a dependency on drugs I would prolly not go to the family if I thought it would land me in a TBS. It is the "my parents will go postal" factor that encourages kids to lie.
Well, that?s a good point, I think it would break the trust between the parents and child if the child thought the parents would freak and send them away. If the parents say? Keep it up and you are off to boarding school? then the child knows the consequence and the communication would break down?.never thought of it that way.
If you actually think that the kind of "socialisation" that Dave Marcus outlined with your daughters school is healthy you are a strange man. In life ppl choose their friends based on whether they like them. A shared love of a common interest like say card games is not considered an unhealthy avoidance tactic.
At TBS anytime a kid becomes close to anyone person they are "banned" so that they can spend hours spilling their guts to random aquaintances. In the event that they god forbid develop any kind of romance, it is seen as some bizarre cardinal sin.
Well, I remember my daughter had several really good friends and they would run off together have fun and goof about. They would try to plan their schedules so they could meet at the pool and spend the afternoon on Saturday if they were not going off campus.
But I remember a friend of my daughter had a crush on another boy there (and vice versa) and they tried to get time alone and succeeded many times and eventually got caught. It was taken very seriously and they almost got kicked out or sent back to another peer group. The kids do stuff and get caught but hey they are young and it happens, its life. The last thing they need is for a girl to be sent home pregnant, though, so I could see the worry!!
Tell me who how would you like to have to confess what you and the wife got up to on Saturday night to all of your colleagues? How would you like the boss and your parents to grill you about it for hours on end?
That would be very bazaar to say the least and it is not something I would volunteer to do. I think it would make it a little easier if everyone had to do it so I wouldn?t feel I was singled out. I don?t have a boss, but I know what you mean, I wouldn?t want to go thru that with my colleagues.
But if I was gambling all my money away and waking up with people I didn?t know in strange cities I might understand someone stepping in and confronting me.
I think you made some valid points Ozzy ?G? thanks for giving me a fesh perspective.
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The Who wrote
Typically kids don?t share their secrets to everyone in high school, I agree, but these kids are there for a reason and have issues that need to be addressed. The sharing of their experiences brought them all closer together as friends
These issues do not need to be addressed in a room full of other children. I think is abhorrent that children should be required to expose their sexual experiences to other children. I would the opposite should hold true. I would not want my child to hear these detailed horror stories.
I remember the Brat Camp episode where a girl was confronted with her history of being sexually molested, not just in front of the entire group of children, but on national television. I was shocked and outraged that this could even be legal. The press does not normally report the names of victims of sexual crimes to protect these people.
Once again, I refer to the recent case of the two Missouri boys who were abducted. All of the psychologists and experts insist they should not be pressured into talking about their experiences. I did not hear one dissenting opinion that they should be confronted and forced to deal with their issues.
Also, in a room full of dysfunctional children, is there no concern that these children will come to think that being dysfunctional is normal? How about being in a school full of dysfunctional children? Without exposure to 'normal' people, how are these kids supposed to see what that looks like?
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Good point Ant. Aside from ther level of humiliation involved in all of this forced confession, one thing that gets overlooked, particularly with boys is the "locker room factor". Given that these schools are meant to be about better behaviour, they dont exactly teach good taste.
Normally when there is a BS session among highschool boys any trusted adult like a coach etc with a brain tries to impart the idea that a gentleman doesnt tell!
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You have to remember that Cindy respects and admires Rudy Bentz, the man who at HLA while in a campus meeting not only encouraged the kids to masturbate as often as possible, but to talk about it.
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AA Wrote:
These issues do not need to be addressed in a room full of other children. I think is abhorrent that children should be required to expose their sexual experiences to other children. I would the opposite should hold true. I would not want my child to hear these detailed horror stories.
Nah, agreed, Coming from a concerned parent, kids shouldn?t be exposed to sexual details of others. I would pull my kid in a heart beat, if she was exposed to that.
I remember the Brat Camp episode where a girl was confronted with her history of being sexually molested, not just in front of the entire group of children, but on national television. I was shocked and outraged that this could even be legal. The press does not normally report the names of victims of sexual crimes to protect these people.
I?ll pass on commenting, it was a TV show?..sorry.
Once again, I refer to the recent case of the two Missouri boys who were abducted. All of the psychologists and experts insist they should not be pressured into talking about their experiences. I did not hear one dissenting opinion that they should be confronted and forced to deal with their issues.
Good point Ant,
I think what the therapists are trying to say is with time it will come out naturally. If a child has been sexually assaulted or has gone thru a traumatic episode the latest methods and research show you should not confront these children, but rather to place them back into their environment and allow them to process what happened to them at their own pace. A therapist needs to be there to receive the signals of when they are ready to talk??.
Also, in a room full of dysfunctional children, is there no concern that these children will come to think that being dysfunctional is normal? How about being in a school full of dysfunctional children? Without exposure to 'normal' people, how are these kids supposed to see what that looks like?
I believe there is a risk, but I also believe it would be over a longer period of time. You have to remember that these kids or most of them come to these schools after being in their own environment for 12 + years. They have the values set out for them by their parents. So a few months with other kids with similar problems isn?t going to shake their value systems too much. Plus you have to weigh the exposure to the peers they were hanging out with prior to the TBS. They may not have had ?Normal? people to model after before.
I think the counselors help to set an example and move them along a better path.
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You have to remember that Cindy respects and admires Rudy Bentz, the man who at HLA while in a campus meeting not only encouraged the kids to masturbate as often as possible, but to talk about it.
Was that a 'bait and punish' technique?
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You have to remember that Cindy respects and admires Rudy Bentz, the man who at HLA while in a campus meeting not only encouraged the kids to masturbate as often as possible, but to talk about it.
Was that a 'bait and punish' technique?
Sure sounds like it. Good thing that Charles Cates never did that shit. I can't say he didn't do it behind closed doors though...
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I dont think I have ever come across a system where grownups have such a level of fascination with what a young person does with their own private parts. Very creepy! This lead me to another comparison
At normal school a student's body is their own. nobody wants to know the gory details
At TBS many unsavoury things can garner an unwholesome level of interest from the adults in charge
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Also, in a room full of dysfunctional children, is there no concern that these children will come to think that being dysfunctional is normal? How about being in a school full of dysfunctional children? Without exposure to 'normal' people, how are these kids supposed to see what that looks like?
Once again, AA, common sense jives with clinical research. Many studies show that the aggregation of distressed teens exacerbates their problems and that, further, they do not learn the modeled behaviors of the adults in the system, but rather learn the behaviors of their peers, the true models. TheWho is dead wrong on this point and it has been abundantly proven since the 1950's.
Who, you say you'd pull your daughter if she had to go thru this nonsense. Well, fact is, she did and you sat on your hands. Now you refer more kids to the same facility.
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AA said:
Also, in a room full of dysfunctional children, is there no concern that these children will come to think that being dysfunctional is normal? How about being in a school full of dysfunctional children? Without exposure to 'normal' people, how are these kids supposed to see what that looks like?
Scooter responded:
I believe there is a risk, but I also believe it would be over a longer period of time. You have to remember that these kids or most of them come to these schools after being in their own environment for 12 + years. They have the values set out for them by their parents. So a few months with other kids with similar problems isn?t going to shake their value systems too much. Plus you have to weigh the exposure to the peers they were hanging out with prior to the TBS. They may not have had ?Normal? people to model after before.
I think the counselors help to set an example and move them along a better path.
Back to this debunked myth once again, Scooter?
Look here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... %2A#193959 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=193959&highlight=iatro%2A#193959)
The Who wrote:
"Kids actually do typically look up to their counselors and want to be like them because they seem confident, happy and are helping others."
Factually this is wrong again. Big surprise there.
Let me give you some terms to look up since you're so fond of having others do so. Look up "iatrogenic juvenile delinquency" and you'll see that through many studies (try to grasp that one) since the 1950's it has been proven without doubt that aggregating distressed teens/juvenile delinquents INCREASES maladaptive behavior because the kids view OTHER KIDS as the role models NOT the counselors.
You are just really factually mistaken on this subject, as usual. The research exists, you're ignorant of it and you make ignorant conclusions based soley on your own opinion and no evidence whatsoever.
What a surprise, Scooter. You ignored the research and went back to beating that dead horse.
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Wow DJ, You are really pissed I proved you wrong about the counselors at ASR being licensed?. I stand by what I said in both of those posts. I think if you bothered to Read the studies instead of copying someone else?s post you would see this applies to Juvenile detention centers and juvy halls. Like adults in prison if the rehabilitation is left uncheck and the people/ kids are left to experience and learn from each other they will take on each others traits thereby increasing the bad behavior that got them their in the first place.
This isn?t the 1050?s folks, wake up!!! They have Therapeutic Boarding schools which recognizes this problem and the kids grow together with healthy peer and adult modeling. Instead of bickering about whether this works or not the parents should ask to talk to other parents who had kids at the school.
The proof is in the pudding as they say.
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Wow DJ, You are really pissed I proved you wrong about the counselors at ASR being licensed?. I stand by what I said in both of those posts. I think if you bothered to Read the studies instead of copying someone else?s post you would see this applies to Juvenile detention centers and juvy halls. Like adults in prison if the rehabilitation is left uncheck and the people/ kids are left to experience and learn from each other they will take on each others traits thereby increasing the bad behavior that got them their in the first place.
This isn?t the 1050?s folks, wake up!!! They have Therapeutic Boarding schools which recognizes this problem and the kids grow together with healthy peer and adult modeling. Instead of bickering about whether this works or not the parents should ask to talk to other parents who had kids at the school.
The proof is in the pudding as they say.
Uh, yeah, speaking of reading posts, it's actually my post I quoted so I did read it. In fact, I wrote it. :roll:
You can read tea leaves or look to pudding for your answers, but this is what's called a "clinical study" and it it proves that what you're saying is false. Feel free to keep fingering your snack cups for the answers though, Scootie.
And, as far as ASR's "licensed counselors" go, can you provide the names of the licensed ones so I can verify through the state? Also, can you cite your source for making this claim? Thanks.
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DJ, Wrote:
Uh, yeah, speaking of reading posts, it's actually my post I quoted so I did read it. In fact, I wrote it.
Take a look at the previous page also?.Hmmmm
You can read tea leaves or look to pudding for your answers, but this is what's called a "clinical study" and it it proves that what you're saying is false. Feel free to keep fingering your snack cups for the answers though, Scootie.
So, we are discussing food groups at this point? I am a coffee drinker and I try to avoid dessert in a cup, if that helps ?. And they didn?t have schools, like they have today, when the studies were performed 60 years ago?.. I would like to see that study repeated at some of the present boarding schools, too much has changed in 60 years.
And, as far as ASR's "licensed counselors" go, can you provide the names of the licensed ones so I can verify through the state? Also, can you cite your source for making this claim? Thanks.
I wouldn?t put these peoples names on this web site. I don?t think the parents care to see them either.
If I were to give advice to parents I would tell them to call the school and ask them if they have licensed counselors and get comfortable with how many, what schools they attended, background, experience etc.
I don?t really need to know at this point.
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DJ, Wrote:
Uh, yeah, speaking of reading posts, it's actually my post I quoted so I did read it. In fact, I wrote it.
Take a look at the previous page also?.Hmmmm
You can read tea leaves or look to pudding for your answers, but this is what's called a "clinical study" and it it proves that what you're saying is false. Feel free to keep fingering your snack cups for the answers though, Scootie.
So, we are discussing food groups at this point? I am a coffee drinker and I try to avoid dessert in a cup, if that helps ?. And they didn?t have schools, like they have today, when the studies were performed 60 years ago?.. I would like to see that study repeated at some of the present boarding schools, too much has changed in 60 years.
And, as far as ASR's "licensed counselors" go, can you provide the names of the licensed ones so I can verify through the state? Also, can you cite your source for making this claim? Thanks.
I wouldn?t put these peoples names on this web site. I don?t think the parents care to see them either.
If I were to give advice to parents I would tell them to call the school and ask them if they have licensed counselors and get comfortable with how many, what schools they attended, background, experience etc.
I don?t really need to know at this point.
Scooter finally rolls over on yet another false claim he has made. Good boy, Scooter! Good, boy!
See, Scootie, this is why I go through these tedious exercises with you: because, in the end, you always roll over and say you "don't care" about issues you've been vehemently defending for days on end.
Now, you could just save some time and energy by just being honest up front. I know this is a foreign concept to you, but give it a try sometime. People might actually lend some creedence to what you say.
Keep carrying on like this with your plan of "lie, lie, lie, lie some more and then deny the issue entirely" and you'll keep getting the same results: everyone thinking you're a crackpot.
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Just to make sure he doesnt miss it, he's been trying to avoid me because I hurt his feelings so bad
Here's the easiest way to settle the matter.
http://www.parentcheckin.com/staff_pict ... 4F2D70%7D# (http://www.parentcheckin.com/staff_pictures_external.asp?progid=%7B9239C59D-474B-445B-9A54-C4C4AD4F2D70%7D#)
That is the entire staff list for ASR.
http://license.reg.state.ma.us/public/l ... lue&board= (http://license.reg.state.ma.us/public/licque.asp?query=personal&color=blue&board=)
That is the search engine for professional licenses in Massachusettes.
Just run every person who has a title of "counselor" or therapist" through the search engine and see if a license comes up.
Or I could save you the trouble.
Not a single one of them did.
In fact the only person on there with a position related to counseling who did come up is our old friend Ralph Cohen, who according to the state of Massachusettes has an expire licensed that he cannot renew.
So then we are left with the fact that ASR apparently has no licensed counselors of any kind. They have unlicensed staff performing not just individual counseling, but group therapy as well.
There is no question this illegal, let's get on it.
Oh and Cindy, just to move the conversation forward I went ahead and ran a search for a "Dr. Anna" as well, there are currently three Dr. Anna's operating in Mass. Their names begin with C, L, and M respectively. Run a search and see if any of them ring a bell for you.
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Sorry, DJ, you can jump up and down all you like, I am not going to put their names on this web site. I don?t think parents would want their names or their kids names posted here.
If there is a lack of belief, I would suggest to check it out themselves. It is really good advice, I believe and it can raise a persons comfort level to talk to the source
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Tom Moore-Clinical Counselor
Leslie Plumeri-Counselor
Rosemary Christoph-Clinical Counselor
Erica DeBlase-Clinical Counselor
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Frank Bartolomeo-Director of Counseling
Micheal Valuski-Asst. Director of Counseling
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Tanya Beecher-Clincial Counselor
Sabrina Herman-Clincial Counselor
Gina Cunningham-Clinical Counselor
Jessica Kuttner-Clincial Counselor
Ness Madeiros-Program Counselor
Ralph Cohen-Psychatrist
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Jay Brumberg-Clinical Counselor
Audrey Everson-Clinical Counselor
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Sorry, DJ, you can jump up and down all you like, I am not going to put their names on this web site. I don?t think parents would want their names or their kids names posted here.
If there is a lack of belief, I would suggest to check it out themselves. It is really good advice, I believe and it can raise a persons comfort level to talk to the source
Their names are already public record, Scootie. They are listed on the ASR website for the great, wide world to see, so no need for you to worry about their "confidentiality," Scootie.
Hey, no problem. I mean, you don't want to have to admit you were very, very wrong, so Robert did your work for you.
He ran every counselor's name listed on the website through the state licensing search engine (and provided links for both sources) and got the results you so bitterly want to avoid.
So, here's where we stand on the licensing status of ASR's counselors:
According to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts licensing authority, there are no licensed counselors at ASR.
So, now that's settled and we can move on to your next horrible, embarrassing failure, Scooter.
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Okay, everyone just shut the hell up for a bit.
I noticed that Ralph L. Cohen is licensed as a medical doctor, as a psychiatrist, and he presumably works at that facility. But he's not on the Massachusetts website as a psychologist. Should he be?
DJ, RB, STFU for a bit, fucking CALL Massachusetts licensing up, and find out where the hell the real information is supposed to be at, and where you can actually find lists of licenses for these people.
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Milk I noticed the same thing, ASR has Ralph Cohen listed as a psychatrist, when I run the search through he shows up as a psychologist who licensed has expired. Ive tried finding a registration for psychatrist, but so so far no luck.
Can you repost your link and maybe then we can settle the issue.
In the meantime the key thing to remember is that even if this Cohen is the psychatrist and he's licensed he's the only therapist there who is. None of the rest of them are.
I also wonder why ASR would want a psychatrist over a psychologist? The key difference between the two is that a psychatrist has been to medical school and can perscribe meds. Does ASR keep kids on meds or add new ones?
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Stooge ? The school is in Massachusetts not Connecticut.
The man has an active license!
http://profiles.massmedboard.org/MA-Phy ... sp?ID=7087 (http://profiles.massmedboard.org/MA-Physician-Profile-View-Doctor.asp?ID=7087)
you people are fumbling all over yourselves. If you are going to try to make a school look bad at least double check your sources.
This is why I don?t believe any of your back ground checks?. Of course they don?t have licenses if you check the wrong state or if they moved from one state to another they will let their license expire in the old state
Parents: Check with the schools, don?t believe this stuff, it is loaded with agenda!!!!!
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Again thank you for clearing the matter up Cindy.
So then weve established that one man provides individual therapy for 200 kids per week and supervises 11 unlicensed counselors.
Sounds like a great arrangement!
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Less arguing with the troll, more reporting to the relevant authorities. DJ, you've done this before.
(Can you all tell I'm really sick of the troll clogging up the forum?)
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RB said:
"In the meantime the key thing to remember is that even if this Cohen is the psychatrist and he's licensed he's the only therapist there who is. None of the rest of them are.
I also wonder why ASR would want a psychatrist over a psychologist? The key difference between the two is that a psychatrist has been to medical school and can perscribe meds. Does ASR keep kids on meds or add new ones?"
He's not a staff member. He's a consulting doc retained for the purpose of med management. This is very typical in the industry. They don't directly employ psychiatrists (too expensive) so they 1099 them as consulting docs.
He's not having any meaningful interactions with the kids; just adjusting/prescribing their meds.
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Less arguing with the troll, more reporting to the relevant authorities. DJ, you've done this before.
(Can you all tell I'm really sick of the troll clogging up the forum?)
Milk, What I found effective with trolls is to ignore them and/or indicate you will answer all their questions on a specific day. This saves a ton of memory space and posting/flaming etc. You can just skip over their posts like I do.
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Cindy he was talking about you, but youre right we should ignore you.
Get on finding out about those license issues and we'll see you when youre all finished.
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Okay, everyone just shut the hell up for a bit.
I noticed that Ralph L. Cohen is licensed as a medical doctor, as a psychiatrist, and he presumably works at that facility. But he's not on the Massachusetts website as a psychologist. Should he be?
DJ, RB, STFU for a bit, fucking CALL Massachusetts licensing up, and find out where the hell the real information is supposed to be at, and where you can actually find lists of licenses for these people.
Milk,
Not necessary to call. I ran all "counselors" through each catagory (Psychologist, Mental Health Professional, Social Workers) on Tuesday and posted the results- just as anyone can do. It is accurate for the staff listed on ASRs site.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20728 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20728)
2 of 11 were licensed.
As for Cohen, He is a Psychiatrist. I ran his name through that site under Psychology, assuming that covered Psychiatrists. That's not the case. They are considered MDs and have to be search through a different site. He appears to be licensed.
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OK, good catch, Deb. I followed up using ALL categories of providers and hit the same number as you : Two.
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I also wonder why ASR would want a psychatrist over a psychologist? The key difference between the two is that a psychatrist has been to medical school and can perscribe meds. Does ASR keep kids on meds or add new ones?
The staff who posted last year claimed that 60% of the kids were on meds. That's why they need a consulting shrink.
Shrinks have to have a degree in medicine as well as psych in order to rx drugs. Regular MDs can rx drugs. Psychologists can't.