Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 15, 2007, 12:08:09 PM
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Hypothetical question: If you decided to kill yourself, how would you do it? Why?
Is there a painless way to kill yourself?
Do you think it is right for suicide to be considered a criminal act? Why?
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Hypothetical question: If you decided to kill yourself, how would you do it?
I would start running up debt splurging on every good high known to man, run up huge debts gambling and getting high, wait to either overdose or someone shoot me over an unpaid debt.
Why?
Because it would be more fun than jumping off a bridge or shooting yourself alone in an apartment.
Is there a painless way to kill yourself?
I think there's lots of ways. Headshot, jumping off a high bridge, driving 100MPH into a center divide.. I think the scary part is actually going through with it, but I don't think it would be phsyically painful ...?
Do you think it is right for suicide to be considered a criminal act? Why?
Its wrong because God gave you life and your life belongs to him. Just kidding, of course it should not be criminal. Besides, what are they going to do, arrest you postmortem? I think it's deterrent mainly, to deter other people from helping you or charging you money or something maybe. A lot of people who would of killed themselves then go on with life and later thank their blessings that they were too inept or afraid to go through with it. I think people who have medical reasons like terminal illness should be able to do it with a doctors help though.
Personally I hope to go out like Aldous Huxley.
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Blow my brains out. It's' the only way to be sure. Of course, one guy failed with a shotgun, and messed up his face for life. So I guess I wouldn't use a shotgun.
I wouldn't know if there was a painless way to kill yourself, since I haven't killed myself.
As for the legality, people should be allowed to do whatever they want to their bodies. Drugs, suicide, what have you.
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The guy who failed to kill himself with a shotgun was a moron, If you can't destroy your brainstem with one of those, you deserve to.. oh, wait. :rofl:
Just remember, if you've already decided you're going to kill yourself, you can do whatever you want before you die. What are they going to do, arrest you?
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There are plenty I'd take with me if I could.
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The guy who failed to kill himself with a shotgun was a moron, If you can't destroy your brainstem with one of those, you deserve to.. oh, wait. :rofl:
Just remember, if you've already decided you're going to kill yourself, you can do whatever you want before you die. What are they going to do, arrest you?
I worked in the ME's office and we heard about or saw most of the gun shot suicides as well as the attempts and more people survive than you would think and for all kinds of variables.
There was one suicide I will never forget that happened one Halloween. It was a young guy and he was really into Goth and still living with his Mom. He waited until she had gone away on a business trip and hung himself from her front porch. They happened to live on a busy road so the porch was visable to all the people driving by.
He painted his face completely white and dressed himself in layers of all this dark clothing with gloves and boots and one of those masks/hoods that completely cover your entire head except for the cut out that shows your eyes topped off with a ball cap.
He hung there for almost 4 days before the people that were driving by realized he was not a Halloween decoration. It was really cold where this happened so there was very little decomposotion that took place, if it had been warmer..someone would have figured it out a lot faster. Sad really, but he obviousley wanted to go out in a way that people would not forget, so he was successful in both ways.
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Goth kids are gay attention whores. The world is better off.
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Goth kids are gay attention whores. The world is better off.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Is that all you really have to say?
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Non sequitor... joke much?
I have plenty more to say, thank you.
Subscribe to my newsletter if interested.
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Non sequitor... joke much?
I have plenty more to say, thank you.
Subscribe to my newsletter if interested.
Not interested...just so you know... :roll: :roll: :roll:
not a very good response either :roll: :roll:
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Non sequitor... joke much?
I have plenty more to say, thank you.
Subscribe to my newsletter if interested.
Not interested...just so you know... :roll: :roll: :roll:
not a very good response either :roll: :roll:
::mecry::
:rofl: :rofl:
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Non sequitor... joke much?
I have plenty more to say, thank you.
Subscribe to my newsletter if interested.
Not interested...just so you know... :roll: :roll: :roll:
not a very good response either :roll: :roll:
cries to your momma baby!
cuz I just dont care!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
::crybaby:: ::crybaby::
::deal:: ::deal:: ::deal::
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The reason suicide is illegal to allow insurance companies to void the life policy. They don't pay if it is suicide.
Also, by making suicide illegal, they make the attempt illegal. That way they can incarcerate the person who made the attempt and failed. Ostensibly, that is to 'help' them.
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It was illegal in Texas in the 80s, and I was never jailed for my attempt. (Although they would have put me in juvie, actually.) All that happened was that a police officer came to the hospital as I was being revived and took a report from my parents. It didn't even go on my record. Then he left my parents the number to a suicide help line that was disconnected when I tried it later.
They didn't even demand that I be put in a psych ward. That was optional, and up to the parents. I convinced my dad not to, and the fact that he didn't like the doctor didn't hurt, either. (The doctor was "presumptuous" enough to suggest that the problem lie with the quality of parenting, and not with me. How dare he. :P )
Dad wasn't too happy with that. So I got to go home. Ten months later... off to CEDU.
Anyway, if you are going to do it with a gun, apparently the best kind is a .22. The main reason for this is because the bullet is too small and there isn't enough power to create an exit wound. It just bounces off the inside of the skull and ricochets around, scrambling your brains. I honestly don't know if there is the possibility of it creating an exit wound if it's point blank, as a suicide would be. I just know that if you are going to shoot someone in the head and kill them, go with a .22.
My friend did it the smart way. She overdosed on heroin. This way, the coroner looked at it as an accidental overdose, and not a suicide, and her girlfriend was able to get the life insurance. All of us, though, knew it was a suicide.
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Some way that it would be sure to look like an accident. That way, nobody believes it was anything other than yet another person who died young, and my friends and relatives don't believe they were at fault. Not that they would be, anyway, but people are kind of stupid that way; they'll blame themselves for anything rather than feel helpless.
I used to say I'd just run out in front of a semi on the interstate; but when I got put in the hospital for depression, I told them that one, and if it happens now they'll know it was deliberate. Hopefully I'll never have to think up another plan like that, but it'd probably be along the same vein... a one-car accident, falling from a roof while cleaning out the gutters... that sort of thing. I'd want it to be certain to result in death and not just handicap, though. Spending the rest of my life in an institution would really suck.
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There's also always suicide by cop. This is easier to accomplish in some places more than others.
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Yeah, but would you want to do that to some poor innocent cop? I sure couldn't.
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I wonder how many people who tried and failed are so happy they did. I think people should have the autonomy to do what they want with their own life, but I hope more would try every other alternative first. Its an understandable option if you live with a lot of interior pain. So far, I've managed to retain enough hope or humor to get me though challenging times, and I think both these traits are necessary.
But there is nothing worse than the aftermath of losing someone you care about to suicide and wondering what you could have done differently...
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Yeah, but would you want to do that to some poor innocent cop? I sure couldn't.
What about the poor innocent semi-truck driver?
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What a macabre thread.
For those who have succeeded with a suicide attempt and for those of us who have been left behind by a suicide ... I find this thread really sad. Suicide is no joking matter.
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Don't fuckin' read it then. :roll:
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What a macabre thread.
For those who have succeeded with a suicide attempt and for those of us who have been left behind by a suicide ... I find this thread really sad. Suicide is no joking matter.
This thread wasn't intended as a joke.
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What about the poor innocent semi-truck driver?
You are right.
Still, he would probably be less traumatized than a cop who shot someone he thought was a threat, because he'd be passively unable to stop in time, rather than being tricked into making a bad decision, as a cop would be.
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Trains don't stop in time, either.
(http://http://www.pchorsepower.com/shock/media/suicide%20-%20train%20crush.jpg)
THIS COULD BE YOU!
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What a macabre thread.
For those who have succeeded with a suicide attempt and for those of us who have been left behind by a suicide ... I find this thread really sad. Suicide is no joking matter.
That is correct. Suicide is not a joking matter. This thread is discussing alternative attitudes towards suicide. Did you know that there are websites dedicated to encouraging and assisting people who wish to commit suicide? There is concern, particularly in Japan, that young people are finding community on these sites and these sites are influencing to take this drastic course of action. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Most religions condemn suicide. Unless am mistaken, the Catholic Church considers it a mortal sin and someone committing suicide can not enter heaven.
For those of us with a secular viewpoint, the issue is more complex. It involves the right of the State to force a person to live against that person's will. It involves determining at what point should we as as a society interfere to 'help' someone get past the mental issues causing them to consider this option. At what point does someone have a right to their depression? It involves a discussion of the ethics surrounding euthanasia. And, it of course it involves issues of medical expediency (who was that woman that gained national attention when the Christian Right wanted to force the husband to keep her on life support? Was she really alive?)
I really don't feel sorry for 'those left behind' by someone who commits suicide. Certainly, they can mourn the loss of the loved one, but to think the loved one did something to them, or to think they are at fault because they did not see it coming and interfere, is simply misguided. The person who takes his own life made that decision and it was ultimately his decision to make.
I have sometimes wondered what would happen if humans could simply stop themselves from living. What if a person lost the will to live and could simply down and stop breathing and stop their heart from beating. What would the suicide rate look like then?
I have read about Australian Aborigines that die in a matter of days if they are incarcerated. I don't know if these stories are true, but in the context of programs, it is interesting to contemplate. Would this phenomenon be considered suicide, or homicide?
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Atomic: What if the left behind are the small children, who may always feel on some level that their parent didn't love them enough to "stay?" There is no way to fill that hole... that lingering question... that possibility that you weren't lovable enough. I've seen this.
I still feel, ultimately, it is the individual's choice, and also question why people focus on the mortal sin component over the indiviual pain aspect, but let's not pretend that the "left behind" don't matter. Especially children.
Also, its been a looooooooooong time since I've done any biblical study (I'm secular), but where in the BIble is it described as a mortal sin? Does anyone know?
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MGDP: If I had the cash I'd pay you to remove that putrid photo. I'm not trying to get into a little war here with "fuck you, don't look then" but it is... deeply disturbing. And not in a good way.
Now I'm going to make a bet with myelf if I'm going to get some expletive laden comment or if you'll take it in good faith.
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I'm not an expert on Catholicism either, but I believe I read this in the context of history classes. As I recall, there was a time when suicide would preclude the person from being buried in a 'christian' cemetery or from receiving a Catholic burial. This could have been from the Middle Ages and the Church may have changed since then.
I hadn't thought about the children. That surprises me since I know at least one person who lost her father to suicide. I have also contemplated what it would mean for my own son to lose me (just in general terms, like illness or accident) and I know that he would be devastated. That makes the issue more complicated. I imagine someone would have to be really depressed and despairing to take their own life and leave young children behind. That is very sad, indeed.
You've changed my mind. I really would feel bad for the children.
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Yeah, I remember the fact suicide precludes you from entering the pearly gates, but wondered the justification of it. I mean, would a loving God really reject someone in so much pain? (Not that I believe in God, but the depiction of him doesn't always draw me into the fold, either.)
One of the most disturbing scenes I have ever scene (also funny) is when Jack Nicholas tells a room full of depressed, suicidal patients crying out for help and hope something like "what if it doesn't get any better? what if this is as good as it gets?!"
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You guys are bringing up a good point regarding someone's right to suicide. I ran into an ethical dilemma several years ago regarding that. Someone i knew online, who wasn't even really a person I knew well, but rather a friend of some friends, posted in her online journal describing pretty much that she had flown into a borderline rage, and had just taken enough pills to OD. Based on the time posted, it looked like I was pretty much the first person to read that entry. I knew that she was in enough of a state to not be bluffing this, either.
Most people would say that if she really wanted to die she wouldn't have posted that entry. I say, who the fuck cares? The took the fucking pills. She set the ball in motion. I didn't know what to do. I know it sounds stupid, but I questioned whether it would be right to interfere, because maybe this was her right to destroy herself.
But my selfish instincts took over, in the sense that I would not be able to live with myself if I just stood by and did nothing. And really, I didn't want this person to die. I checked her friends list, posted in their journals about what was going on. We all joined up in IRC chat to try to figure out who knew what area code she lived in so an ambulance could be called. Also, we were trying to contact her friends there so they could know.
Fortunately, the paramedics got there in time. I guess I say fortunately because she's still alive now and seems to be ok with that, but she is having a very hard time. I didn't even think about her until today when I was reading this thread, and then I wondered how she was, so I checked out her journal. I was happy to know she was still around.
The really brutal thing was the amount of hideous comments that people put in her suicide journal entry the day it happened. Really really mean stuff. I was so mad I was shaking. Which is weird, since I don't really even know this person well.
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It sounds more like a cry for help than a serious attempt. I think you and your friends did the right thing by trying to help. Maybe a person does have the right to end their own life. Maybe we also have the right to help them survive the attempt, if only for our own sake.
What about when that 'help' means keeping a person in restraints to physically prevent them from killing themselves. At that point, have we gone too far?
Does anyone think that we should keep a person alive at all costs like this?
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I found some websites that say, yes, suicide is a sin. Taking your own life is considered the same as murder.
http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LV ... deASin.htm (http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/WhyIsSuicideASin.htm)
http://www.thercg.org/questions/p080.a.html (http://www.thercg.org/questions/p080.a.html)
http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4.php?id=681 (http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4.php?id=681)
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I wuld have called, but restraints? No. I'm with Virginia Wolf on this one. I thinkpeople should stop criminalizing suicide
Also, the thing that sucks, is that some don't do it for attention, but probably were desperate for understanding and support at one point. But would never ask for help so they can forever be treated as some fragile lunatic by family and friends. If I considered suicide, I wouldn't tell anyone for just that reason. I couldn't take the indignity of that.
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AA: Good stuff, but as a secular I guess none it resonates. Nothing is compelling enough and at least two sites seem more judgmental than helpful which is why the church turns me off.
But now I see how they justify it as a sin. I don't agree, but I see where they point justify their argument.
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The last link I posted has an entire section on youth suicide. I just spent the past half hour reading through some it. Some of it is pretty good material from an academic perspective.
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The problem with suicide is twofold.
One, you'll never know what could have happened in this life... and few people are in such dire straights its better to die than to not die.
Secondly, if you fail, you're FUCKED... and you'll be wishing you were dead but unable to die stuck in an institution forever.
That alone is enough to keep me from considering it :-?
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Good point Niles ... I had a male friend in high school who attempted suicide and failed. It left him paralyzed and slightly mentally/physically impaired. His impairment is awful ... he is cognizant enough to understand his condition. He remembers what life was like before his suicide. He is caught in some terrible place where he is helpless ... and helpless to escape.
I know the Catholic church did categorize suicide as a mortal sin ... but there is much that Catholics ascribe to that is not necessarily Biblical (IE: divorce making one ineligible for the sacraments or remarriage in the church). I don't see anywhere in the Bible that there is any one sin that condemns us to hell. By my reading all sins are forgivable. That's the message of Christ.
Ant~ I am glad you have considered the devastation that suicide leaves behind for children. But, I would encourage you to further consider that ALL who are close to a person who chooses suicide suffer greatly. Adult children, parents, spouses, friends. There is a tremendous sense of "didn't he love me enough to want to stay alive?". And while in most adult's intellect they are able to recognize that it is about the victim's emotional/physical pain and suffering that are at the root of such a choice, there is still a very real sense of guilt, shame and overwhelming loss. Especially in cases where a suicide note is left that points fingers ...
We've all heard the old adage (ad-nauseum I'm sure) that suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem. That is true for the victim ... but for those who love the victim the solution really is permanent.
To "outlaw" suicide is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. And I don't know of a single instance where a person was held legally accountable for a suicide attempt. How counterproductive. Bear in mind that there are still laws in many states that prohibit fellatio. Yeah ... like that practical and enforced. :-? Amounts to the same attempt at controlling human behavior.
Life can get better. It takes work ... and lots of support. But there is always hope ...
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Good point Niles ... I had a male friend in high school who attempted suicide and failed. It left him paralyzed and slightly mentally/physically impaired. His impairment is awful ... he is cognizant enough to understand his condition. He remembers what life was like before his suicide. He is caught in some terrible place where he is helpless ... and helpless to escape.
And it is situations just like this one that reinforce the notion that suicide should be "safe", legal, and up to the individual.
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Perhaps it should be "safe" (what an oxymoron huh?), legal and up to the individual ... but the problem lies therein. The individual who is making the decision is usually not in a decision making capacity.
Ever lived with a depressed person? They oft can't decide what jeans to pull on ... let alone a decision regarding whether to breathe or not breathe.
Most people who get past the suicide ideation are glad that they did. Emotions are temporary ... and it is my belief that as family ... friends ... clergy ... professional mental health care givers ... that it is our responsibility to help depressed mentally ill people over that hump ... whenever it is in our power to do so.
If my family member is so sick with the flu that they want to lay in bed and dehydrate I feel it is my responsibility to force fluids ... to provide whatever relief I can. That may entail a trip to the doctor for meds. It may even entail a trip to the ER for acute care. Perhaps a hospitalization to get my loved one back on track. Although over simplistic ... this is sort of how I see suicide prevention.
Ultimately, my family member has to decide to get better ... or not. But, we who are well are responsible to those who are not.
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The legality issue is one of Religion and Capitalism? We need separation of church and state and the end of corp welfare.
Proposed Death with Dignity Bill Creates Deep Division
by Taylor Reed, The Caledonian-Record, St. Johnsbury, VT, 1/13/2005
Supporters of a proposed Death with Dignity bill are holding their breath, hoping the House will vote on it this year.
Last year lawmakers passed over the proposal.
"In my hand basket, one of the choices I want is to be able to end (my life)," said Pat Burnham of Waterford.
Burnham is a passionate supporter and a drafter of the proposed bill. She thinks it will be resubmitted to the House next week.
Burnham is a director on the Dartmouth Hitchcock Alliance Board and a member and former chairwoman of the Northeastern Vermont Regional Hospital Board of Trustees. Burnham has also written a book, "Life's Third Act: Taking Control of Your Mature Years," and teaches elder policy at the University of Vermont as an adjunct professor.
She has spent countless hours in the Statehouse lobbying for such senior citizen issues as rising prescription costs. Her focus, she said, has always been on improving health care. Burnham believes ending one's own life, in a terminal situation, is a right people should have in order to avoid unnecessary suffering.
"The question is, 'Don't I have a right to have this choice?'" Burnham said.
If a patient chooses to die under the proposed bill, he or she must go through a long process. The patient, Burnham said, must be sane and make the decision on his or her own.
Jim Newell, Vermont End of Life Choices treasurer, said patients approved for death would be given a drug to take on their own that would kill them.
Newell said patients can gather loved ones around them before taking the pill, and have some control over the process.
Newell adamantly objects to the term "physician-assisted suicide."
Burnham also objects to the term. She said physician-assisted suicide was a label created by the opposition.
"It is patient-controlled, physician-assisted death," Burnham said in response.
The term suicide, she contends, is a legal one and connotes somebody illegally taking their own life. Under the proposed bill, taking a death pill would not be illegal nor considered suicide for insurance purposes.
Aside from the shoving of religious values onto others, isn't this largely what the opposition is about? Money? Insurance? I own my body and should have the right to end my life when I choose. What is ethical or just about someone else imposing their values on MY life? As far as insurance... hell, we're all gonna die, just a matter of time. What gives the insurance companies the right to withhold the money I paid them for death benefits if I choose to end my mental/physical suffering before my body gives out? Are they more concerned about loosing a paying customer? Should there be a law to protect that?
Some in the local religious community strongly disagree with supporters of the bill.
"It's part of the continuing erosion of the value of life in our society," said the Rev. Joel Battaglia of Lyndon Bible Church.
I'd like to hear the good Rev's take on the "value" of the bazillion lives taken in the name of religion.
In Battaglia's mind, death with dignity is a nice way of saying committing suicide. He said murder is against the Ten Commandments and suicide is the murder of oneself.
That's not the issue. The issue is that this country is not supposed to be ruled by the 10 Commandments.
Associate Pastor Michael Murray of New Beginnings in St. Johnsbury said there is nothing dignified about suicide. Murray recently watched a sick parishioner die in agony and said that was real dignity - it was natural.
And, may he also die in gut-wrenching dignified agony as well. What's all the fuss? Where's the separation of church and state? No one will force Murray or anyone else to commit suicide. How will THEIR actions directly impact him? They won't. Control freaks. Was wiping out whole civilizations, raping and pillaging, "dignified"? Hell, it's not even "civilized". And what of the death penalty? "Dignified"? Their lives have no "value"? Correct, they aren't consumers.
Pastor Paul Essof of Newport lost his wife to liver and pancreatic cancer three years ago. The doctors, he said, could never control her pain.
Speaking for his wife, Essof said, she would have never killed herself to avoid the pain, even if it was legal. Essof feels the same way.
That's all well and good, and just as it should be. So, get about living your values and leave others alone. My how religious people love their pain and suffering paradigm. Sadistic. It's like they stopped growing socially/emotionally at 2 years of age.
Oregon is only state that allows terminal patients to end their lives.
State Sen. Julius Canns, R-Caledonia, said Oregon has been "plugging Vermont because it is the easiest state to turn on" regarding such issues.
"I'm not real enthused about it because the people aren't real enthused about it," Canns said of the proposed bill. He said the vast majority of constituents he has heard from are against it, as well as doctors with whom he has talked. Canns said he has not made a decision on the issue.
Sen. Jane Kitchel, D-Caledonia, is also undecided. She said the state does need to improve end-of-life care, but doesn't know if death with dignity is the proper means.
The State doesn't need to do anything except stay out of people's personal affairs. Stop forcing they personal values on all citizens.
"The opinions are very divided, even in the medical community," Kitchel said. Lawmakers, she said, may not have time to deal with the bill this session. Many state residents hope they do.
According to the Associated Press, a December Zogby International poll found that 78 percent of Vermonters support the legislation.
So, are Cann's constituents the religious right?
The poll was commissioned by two groups that back the bill - Death with Dignity Vermont and End of Life Choices.
Canns said to be wary of the figures due to who commissioned the poll.
Canns will work to defeat this bill to avoid feelings of grief/loss of control. Not very "dignified", Canns. Why are you trying to avoid suffering?
Burnham expects the proposal to at least be delayed while legislators deal with money issues, such as health care.
Newell said the bill has been heavily based on the Oregon Death with Dignity Act, which is seven years old. "In Oregon the major benefits have been the improvement of palliative, end of life care for terminal patients," Newell said. He said only about 150 people have ended their lives in Oregon under the act.
Burnham provided these major provisions for the proposed Vermont Death with Dignity Legislation:
? A written, witnessed request to the physician.
? Request must be voluntary with no evidence of coercion.
? Terminal diagnosis confirmed by two independent physicians.
? Evaluation of mental competency by a mental health professional if recommended by independent physician.
? A 15-day waiting period prior to receiving the requested prescription (for death).
? Revocable by the patient at any time.
? Medication (for death) must be prescribed by the doctor and self-administered by the patient.
? No criminal liability for a physician, family member or caring friend who is present.
? No effect on life insurance.
? Monitoring by the Vermont Department of Health and the Department of Developmental & Mental Health Services.
~~~
Typically, I think people (kids) have a hard time with a parent suiciding because there is no discussion and/or therapy following the event. The issue is taboo and stuffed in the closet, which leaves lots of room for the imagination to go wild. They need to be allowed to grieve (just as with any death/loss) and move on, rather than carrying it around. To talk with someone who is stable enough to help them put things in perspective. There's a reason we're equiped with tear ducts. Talking and crying are the way humans heal from grief and dispair. Hard to do in this religiously dominated culture which supports martyrdom and discourages discussion of taboo issues.
I don't think you should restrain a person who is hopeless unless you're pretty damn confident that you have the skill to genuinely help them regain their hope- desire to live. Short of that, how humane is it to dope them up or ECT them to the point of being a vegetable? What kind of life is that? Again, just saving others from experiencing grief.
And why, exactly, should a person who is in so much emotional/physical pain that they are ready to check out be manipulated to consider other's feelings? That is so selfish. "Live in utter misery, so I don't have to grieve a loss". Force another to suffer to avoid your own suffering. How "diginified" is that.
If they are to consider others feelings about thier planned death, perhaps they should arrange for it to appear to be an accident. Takes care of the insurance issue too. Accidents pay double. Just don't swerve into oncoming traffic like the young woman did, who left my ex-boss in a wheel chair. There are plenty other objects to slam your car into. No need to take out innocent bystanders.
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I don't know if you have ever experienced death by suicide up close and personal Deborah. If so, your objectivity is quite remarkable.
Perhaps I am a bit more subjective ...
Quoted by Deborah
I don't think you should restrain a person who is hopeless unless you're pretty damn confident that you have the skill to genuinely help them regain their hope- desire to live.
I don't think you should restrain a person either. I said "help". I am pretty damn confident that emotions pass ... depressive episodes come and go. The darkness turns to dawn. They are often able to regain their own hope and desire to live.
I don't find hanging on to hope for someone ... until they can find their hope again selfish at all. In fact I think it's selfless.
I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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I have. And I believe that people's grief and guilt can be aided by talking about it. Crying when that arises. Not having one's emotions suppressed by social conditioning or drugs.
More is needed than "hanging on to hope" for the other person, imo.
Re: restraint, I was responding to AA question- is it ethical to physically restrain.
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Thinking about the responses above, it occurred to me that we cannot discuss this without considering motive. People consider suicide for many different reasons:
1. To escape the pain of a terminal illness. This is the one form of suicide legal in some places.
2. To escape the pain of clinical depression. This may or may not be treatable by medication. The patient may or may not appreciate the interference of others. One could argue that intervention here is similar to saving the sick person's life by taking them to ER.
3. To escape situational depression. These people see little hope to escape their current situation which is so emotionally taxing that they are willing to kill themselves just to end the pain. Interference in this case, could just mean keeping them alive until the intensity of the emotion wears off.
4. To get even with the living. Kids might threaten to kill themselves so their parents 'will be sorry' for treating them in whatever fashion they are treating them. In this case, suicide is an act of agression. It is a big 'fuck you' to the living or to society. I would expect most these attempts or threats to be bluffs, but some may be serious and once again, intervention is just holding the person until the anger and frustration pass.
5. To escape oppression. This is complicated. Does the convict serving a life sentence attempt suicide as a result of situational depression or as an escape from society's control (could be both). Anyone under incarceration (especially if prolonged or accompanied by abuse) may try suicide as a means of escape. Hey it's one way to get out of a program, if you can pull it off. Someone may consider society itself so oppressive that suicide is the only escape from the oppression of society (read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley).
I think the terminally ill and the person escaping oppression are two situations where the person is making a rational choice guided by free will. Those people who forcibly prevent their suicide are simply oppressors. In my world view, individual rights generally trump society's, so I would say, "Let 'em do it."
When I spoke of restraint, I was not thinking of someone who grabs a person off a ledge or takes the gun away until the moment goes away. I was concerned with long term incarceration involving strait jackets, four point restraints, forced medication, and suicide watches. To me, this in an infringement on a person's free will. This is society oppressing someone with a different world view.
This may sound odd to some, but the person who I think should never be restrained or prevented from suicide is the one making the attempt as the big 'fuck you' to the living or to society. This person is making a statement of their own free will. Forcing this person to live is an act of oppression. This individual's right to determine their own existence trumps the grief of those left behind.[/u]
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:tup: I agree completely.
If you institutionalize someone and flatline them, how have you helped them regain their lust for living? It is oppressive. One of the biggest arguments I had with a professor was in psych when he told the class that the 'solution' for poor people was anti-depressants. Oh lord, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Totally absolves the blatant economic oppression, totally avoids the re-evaluation of all social issues. I told him the best thing they could do was take the meds, sell them, and buy some damn groceries for their kids.
What all those scenarios you presented have in common, to me, is a sense of hopelessness, no light at the end of the tunnel. That the current state of affairs is permanent and won't change.
It takes a very skilled person, in some cases it doesn't require a degree, to help someone restore their hope, their passion. It is conditioned out of us by society, to less or more degress depending on the personality. In the cases I've had direct experience with the person feels their situation is somehow unique and unusual. That's not the case. They need to know that their situation is not unique, and they aren't different, only the way they perceive their predicament is different.
In one case of suicide in my family, the woman was in so much physical pain following corrective surgery and meds that she felt she had explored all options and was at the end of the line. She couldn't live with the constant physical pain. She was a distant second cousin who I had hung out with in the 70s (the life of the party!!) but lost contact with after a long distance move. When I learned of her suicide I was saddened and wished I'd been close enough to offer other options, but oh well. I wasn't, and feel no blame in that situation.
In the other familial suicide, the woman was a single mom of 4 kids and struggling mightily to support them alone. She had recently remarried, I suspect mostly out of deparation, and the f'in shrinkydink she was seeing told her to quit her job because she'd had an affair with a man of a different race. She was conflicted, as her dad was a staunch racist. Left alone at home to contemplate her situation, under the influence of valium (I believe it was), felling no one understood or cared, shut off from the man she was attracted to, she decided to end it. I was very sad, but our family took her kids into the fold and have loved them well. They survived.
Life is messy. At the very least, we really need to explore our motivation to "help" anyone, and recognise our limitations. It happens that sometimes even the credentialed haven't a clue. When the day is done, we just need to genuinely love them, with no pre-set agenda and ask leading questions that might help them sort out the confusion and despair that has left them in such a life-less state.
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Ant/Deborah~
Very important distinctions you draw.
I totally agree that those who are in chronic pain due to a terminal disease should certainly have the right to a dignified ... controlled death. Although, I must say that in some terminal cases, the medical establishment can be helpful in managing end of life suffering.
My grandfather died of lung cancer a few years back. Our hospital/hospice was wonderful. They basically put him into a "drug coma" in his last days. He never suffered ... actually he was never really conscious. It was a blessing. I don't understand why physicians aren't able (willing?) to do that more often.
The type of suicide that I was referring to (in term of hanging on for a loved one) was more of the situational type. IE: A troubled young adult whose significant other walks out and leaves a person devastated. I believe that time will make that heartbreak better ... if time and therapy and lots of love and support are given a chance.
Long term depression is a more complex "situation". Some do recover from clinical depression once the right med(s) are found. Some do not and spend their entire lives on the emotional roller coaster. Good times, OK times and really horrid times. For those individuals I'm not sure what the correct response is .... as a family member. It is complicated. It is confusing. It is scary. Just as I wouldn't wish to lose that family member to cancer and would do anything in my power to see them well ... I don't wish to lose this person to depression via suicide. And I'm the first to admit I'm not as objective as I could/should be due to the proximity of the relationship.
It sucks. That is about the one thing I am sure of.
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I'm a Christian (closest to the Baptist variety, but without the ban on drinking and dancing, and having discarded all that legalist crap). So I can give you our viewpoint on the suicide thing:
Yes, it's a sin; and yes, it's murder.
As a Christian, you've sworn loyalty to God; so you're taking what doesn't belong to you when you kill yourself.
However, God doesn't turn away any Christian from heaven, no matter what they've done. The only way to keep yourself out of heaven is to reject God and say, "I don't need that salvation crap; I'm good enough on my own". (Which is silly, because God demands perfection and not even Mother Teresa is "good enough on her own".)
So... Kiling yourself won't keep you out of heaven. However, it is a sin.
That means you're going to have to face God, knowing you did something he thinks is wrong. Not that we don't all do stuff that's wrong; but suicide is special... it means you can't ever do anything right again, either.
However, God knows everything; and he knows your state of mind. If you were psychotic or totally depressed and not thinking straight, he'd know that. If you really just wanted help and killed yourself pretty much by accident, he'd know that too.
So... sin, yes, But forgivable, just like any other sin.
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Yeah, but would you want to do that to some poor innocent cop? I sure couldn't.
I don't think they exist. Innocent cops, that is.
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Yeah, but would you want to do that to some poor innocent cop? I sure couldn't.
I don't think they exist. Innocent cops, that is.
Not sure I get this "suicide by cop" thing...
What would you do, threaten his life in attempt to force him to kill you? What if he shoots you in the leg or something? Seems a bit risky.
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Yeah, but would you want to do that to some poor innocent cop? I sure couldn't.
I don't think they exist. Innocent cops, that is.
Not sure I get this "suicide by cop" thing...
What would you do, threaten his life in attempt to force him to kill you? What if he shoots you in the leg or something? Seems a bit risky.
For some reason, quite a few people actually try this, to the point that police officers are trained on how to deal with it. As to whether they decide to use non-lethal force or not, however, is debatable, and probably depends on where you live. I know in San Francisco, it would be very difficult to kill yourself via cop. However, if you jaunt on down to New Orleans, the cops will probably kill you even if you had no intention of committing suicide.
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I have just come across this thread. Suicide in most cases is something I just dont get. If nothing else the person has lost any curiosity about whether things can improve. So i would assume that an attempt is a cry for help. As a society we have a duty to help anyone in need. The question is how to help.
i agree with Ant that locking someone up for a long time is not the answer.
I also find the whole euthenasia thing a bit concerning on some levels. i can absolutely see that it is every persons right to die with dignity and in the case of a terminal patient end the discomfort. Nobody else should be abole to make that decision for someone.
By the same token I would have real concerns that many people would chose the euthenasia option because they no longer wish to be a burden of loved ones. i dont like this idea because it removes any moral duty to deal with the suffering of our loved ones in the name of social convenience. This is an isolating and depressing thought.
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This article was interesting
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/t ... 52589.html (http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/to-live-or-to-die-is-no-simple-choice/2007/03/05/1172943352589.html)
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I agree with the final sentence of the article. The potential for abuse and legal murder is too great.
On the other hand, a patient with advanced dementia - someone who has never indicated one way or other whether he wishes to live on in that state - may be deeply distressed and burdened by terrible suffering. Should we allow the close relatives or guardians of such patients to seek legally sanctioned euthanasia for the individual in their care? The argument for compassion in this instance seems to be just as compelling as it is in the case of the patient who had previously indicated an autonomous wish to die. And this argument seems to retain its force whether the patient's condition is terminal or not.
The danger is that the 'close relatives' are the same incompetents that would send kids into programs against their will. These people have no problem forcing misguided decisions onto others.
While I have little problem about someone ending their own life of their own free will, I have big problem with others making that decision for them.
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You can't die we need you for the army. Go outside to a field or something where no ones around, and try to meditate or something, nature is good, get away from abusive people if you can, no matter what they do to you ,you have a right to who you are, and your going to get out and be somewhere better. I believe in God of some sort, it's human's that do the harm. Nature makes a lot of sense if you find somewhere nice to be alone for a bit, it really helps. Mostly because it doesn't do anything horrible and it's calm and beautiful. It's good for hope. make a five year plan that might make you feel like you have something to fight for. you have to fight for your life, you have a right to live and have a good life. if you were in one of the behavior modification schools, they were trying to kill you don't let them. If people around you are abusing you get rid of them, and only keep friends that make you feel happy, Dogs are good, but they make it harder to find places to live. Abusive people are hard to get away from, i don't know just don't die, or try too you might do something to your health. get away from abusive people they really make it hard to be happy, your not alone, Go get a bunch of books on the civil rights movement, and some movies, it helps to see other people I find that have made it through hell
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There is no dying. don't let them kill you, that's so horrible, i am very sad for you, I think I might know some how you feel, there is no dying you'll just make yourself sick. are you in jail? otherwise get away from whatever is so bad that you want to die, if you can. I know why you don’t though, it is easy to say it, but considering my current situation I am one to talk, I’ll take my own advice, if I can afford it. I know some, I have had horrible things happen to me. We have a right to be happy, though, everyone. I am angry that people have to suffer through their lives and be abused, and then wish to die. Unless you are ninety and in pain, no death is not option. Although I do not blame you for this conversation topic. We have to fight for this world, I don't know why, there is just nothing else to do! we have to fight for ourselves. You have to fight against the things that made you feel like this, but don't get yourself shot by a cop, although the thugs are often trigger happy, We have to live and take over, by living and voicing what we know. If you keep going till ninety, just to piss the bastards off, then you will do some good, you’ll die eventually. I don’t think God hates suicides, the church is so somebody I look to for insight into God. Are you depressed chemically do you think? Or is your life causing so much stress? I think it might be relevant? You are in pain and I am sorry , I am in pain too some it‘s almost normal, If you were in one of the behavior modification places, I was, you probably have post traumatic stress, everyone else seems to, do you shake when talking about anything personal and have nightmares. There is a certain amount of pain that goes with such place, to say the least, not to mention sexual abuse or whatever happened before or after. It is what it is, but death is not an option, suffer on with everyone else I think. I'm trying to get a political science degree? I want to join a protest group? If I learn about law perhaps i can find how this is a legal and cause trouble. This is pretty much what keeps me going, Everything is pretty bad I think, I'm not being crazy, retail jobs are horrible, highschool is horrible, college is hard, sex is horrible, sexual abuse is horrible, sexual harrasment is horrible, men are jerks, women are jerks too, everyone else has power over you and they may or may not be horrible, no one believes you, people are prejudice, whatever it's pretty oppresive, feel better. It's like communist China, don't listen to me I need to get out of retail, I know lots of people have better jobs, mine is ok now, that i changed , but it pays nothing. Death again is not an option because you are one of the people on the non communist party side, you hear, we need you. There are good people and nature helps because it is not really horrible, don't watch the damn nature channel, just go outside to somewhere nice. There are horrible people to, The laws need to be better and people who know how abuse works are needed.
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It is hard i find dealing with issues of abuse from behavior modification places to watch t.v. and other media but especially t.v. and to see how stupid it is and how it almost supports the whole setup? Not to mention it is sexist. I can't articulate it exactly but does anyone else know what I'm talking about? It's like being in Russia out of a Gulag and watching party propaganda?
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There are a lot of good thing about people maybe, I like art and books, I've traveled some, if you have money to travel the world is very pretty otherwise you get mugged, but art and books, I really can't stand the media, right now? It's so ubber, if your not ubber just jump off a bridge, but at the same time it's ubber stupid. and sexist. I like history because it's depressing like my life and it helps me make sense of it. All I want is to be able to buy an apartment or live in a nice apartment in a safe neighborhood with my dog and finish school and have a safe ok life, I wouldn't mind some safe friends and a nice loving supportive boyfriend, that doesn't yell at me and listens to what I say, and doesn't hit on other women, or sleep with them. When I mean safe friends they shouldn't sleep with my boyfriend, hit on me, steal my stuff, bitch about me behind my back, they should be nice to me. I think that's not to much to ask, Dr. kavorkian you should get your own apartment too. Maybe you have on already, then you should get a dog, really they are great. So much better than people, they are cute and like you hope people are going to be when your a kid, they never do anything, and they make you walk.
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I really do believe in God, I know that sounds nuts, but I do and I think it has something to do with nature and the fact that its beautiful outside usually, no matter, what the hell people are throwing at me. That can also be kind of depressing to, where is a damn lighting bolt when you need one? I think what we have done with life is pretty unnatural, Meditating outside helps, It makes you feel better, I honestly saw the light once, and no I wasn't dying and it didn't tell me to hate gay people. I was really upset so I left my house and went to this field and was crying and i was out there for some time and the sun rose and I totally felt really peaceful and so much better and I felt like that for a few months, then all these jerks I was around depressed me and the light was gone? Or at least I lost that feeling of peace and joy almost, it was a noticeable thing, perhaps I was so depressed I kicked in the near death experience? I don't have strange light filled mood swings or anything, like it's pretty much the same old me throughout?
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creative hobbies are good? poetry, collage, bead work, sewing? who has the time? photography? No jumping they want us to be lemmings? Makes them money. I like collage and poetry can get pretty weird for sure, collage is fun can say a lot with pictures.
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While I have little problem about someone ending their own life of their own free will, I have big problem with others making that decision for them.
I've faced thi in my own family and witnessed it in others, so I've had to give it a lot of thought. The only real choices wrt decision making are the family or some codified formula cooked up by well intended but disconnected people.
"But look at the crack mamas!" is the argument of well intended dp gppders who don't have time to get personally involved. You're better than that, by far!
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no you cannot end your own life, also if you are in high school ,never ever ever ever say anything about wanting to kill your self, to anyone, that is one of the top three ways you end up in a behavioral modification hell hole!! Isn't that horrible you need help with feeling depressed and they put in a prison camp, damn. What are people who need help supposed to do? They feel bad and think about dying because they are abused so they abuse them more? For sure, i was in one, please listen too me and spare yourself the trouble, I don't think the adults around here should be talking about suicide either for the same reason, I think they can lock you up for for a little while at least, even if you are over eighteen! No killing oneself and no "accidentally" falling off a building or passing out in the bathtub or something. Life sucks for sure in many ways but as I get older it improves, I think getting away from abusive people really helps, again too, year old, house broken pound dog can't hurt if you have an apartment, don't get Bruno the wall eater, just some medium sized smart mutt. There are so many people, it hurts when people are jerks, but there are many many many of them, who cares what a few or one guy or girl is doing to you. Having a place of your own is big, at least to me. Money I hate money, I wish I had more of it so I could be free. Avoid legal troubles they cost much! and cops are abusive for sure.
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:D :lol: 8-) :cry: 8-) Don't get a dog if your life is too crazy for one, but maybe if your life is crazy, if it were calm enough for a dog, it would be calmer for you too, It's not good to get one if you are uncertain about places to live because you can rent a room without one easier and such, live on campus, no comment on my dumb life, i really like my dog. Learn from my mistakes.
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the guy who said he doesn't care and goth kids are attention whores should be ashamed of himself.
What are you some sixteen year old frat boy?
Stop that, I'm old and was in a prison camp.
Some of the people on here were in really bad prison camps and had really bad experiences.
No bullying. That is somewhat abusive.
and abusive people cause real harm and I am not fond at all of them.
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I am a pretty happy person despite my complaining about how difficult it can be, I just think Dr. Kavorkian sounded like he/she needed some support. It's not easy, and I know that. A lot of people go through stuff that really shakes them up! And the world can seem pretty cold and harsh, goth kids are attention whores, that is so stereotyped ignorant and stupid, come on now. some things are hard or abusive. Really so, I know. I hate it when people tell you it's all just great when you try to tell them about your fun day, when really no it's not especially great, this annoying guy is hitting on you in a creepy way, your roommate steals stuff, your boyfriend hits on your roommate. Whatever it's just depressing and even worse when everyone around you, like the boyfriend and roommate go " no, there is nothing wrong." And then they blame you or call you crazy. It's not easy though and once I accepted that some it didn't bother me as much. I also found it helped to realize I was right much of the time, and I had a right to do what I wanted in relation to my life. So I ditched the boyfriend and roommate, although the boyfriend, really hard to get rid off, speaking of crazy, but anyway. What you think is right for you probably is, ditch people who make you unhappy I have found or cause real trouble. Just try to do stuff to make yourself happy, be around people who are nice and make you happy. If you can't get away just try not to let them get you down too much, they are jerks you are fine, If you are being a jerk stop it. Life is nuts, it's hard, history tells us but there is lots of good stuff, don't let abusive or stupid people ruin what is good for you. Even if they have nice things about them, but still whenever you are around them, you feel upset let them go. Someday we will both have a nice safe, cool place to live and nobody that is a jerk to have to deal with, other than bosses and such, you get used to them after a while, avoid the hell out of all the jerks you can? It makes life better. I don't know what is making you depressed but there is a lot of good in this world, despite, so much. can you go to the beach? Death is serious to say the least, and it gives crazies the right to beat you up, like the behavioral modification people. Crazies are real and unpleasant but they are not everything don't let them win. Have you seen the travel commercial for a Bahamavention, it’s actually pretty funny, these people are all stressed and down and instead of a intervention they travel, sure they have money but it‘s better than a normal intervention. Before you off yourself dear, have some fun, it sounds like you deserve it, not destructive fun, like a nice life fun. Take your best friend and go camping, I think I might do that too it sounds like a good idea. We are hardly the first people ever to have to deal with real bastards, they are wrong you are right, shrinks everywhere are reading horrible things into that, but really in many cases it is true, and you know when it is true. Try to feel good about yourself, and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. And get away from trouble if you can everything gets much clearer.
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not addressing the real problem too, like i am upset because I need a new roommate and boyfriend, can lead to depression, so actually bitching about problems is good because then you change them, If I internalize them, I just get depressed, because whatever is causing the stress is still there. parents can be really crappy roommates? :wink: there are a lot of guys out there, dating helps get rid of love stress, although be careful I've had dates from hell!
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I hide myself inside the shadows of shame... The silent symphonies were playing their game... My body echoed to the dreams of my soul; it started something that I could not control.
Where can I run to now, the joke is on me... No sympathizing God, its insanity. Why don't you just get out of my life, yeah. Why don't you just get out of my life? Why doesn't everybody leave me alone? Why doesn't everybody leave me alone, yeah.
Obsessed with fantasy, possessed with my schemes; I mixed reality with pseudo god dreams. The ghost of violence was something I'd seen; I sold my soul to be the human obscene.
How could this poison be the dream of my soul? How did my fantasies take complete control?
Why don't you just get out of my life? Why don't you just get out of my life now? Why doesn't everybody leave me alone? Why doesn't everybody leave me alone, yeah..
Well I feel something's taking me I don't know where, it's like a trip inside a separate mind. The ghost of tomorrow from my favorite dream is telling me to leave it all behind. Feel it slipping away, slipping in tomorrow. Got to get to happiness, want no more of sorrow..
Realized when to hide how I tried to get away from you now. Now am I right if I fight? That I might just get away from you now..Sting me!
Well I feel something's giving me the chance to return, it's giving me the chance of saving my soul. Pictures of demigod are fading away, I'm going backwards but I'm in control... Feel it slipping away, slipping in tomorrow.. getting back to sanity, providence of sorrow.
Was it wise to disguise how I tried to get away from you? Is there a way that I could pay? Or is it true I have to stay with you now? How I lied, went to hide how I tried to get away from you now. Am I right in my fight? That I might just get away from you now.. Suck me!
I'm really digging schizophrenia, the best of the earth, I've chased my soul in the fires of hell! Peace of mind eluded me but now it's all mine, I simply try but he wants me to fail. Feel it slipping away, slipping in tomorrow... Now I've found my happiness, providence of sorrow.
No more lies, I got wise! I despise the way I worshipped you yeah.. Now I'm free, let me see, That now instead I won't be led by you now.. Free!
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I think your just stressed. I read a bunch of poetry and stuff, music, and what the human mind running around from whatever it has going on sounds pretty crazy I think, your pattern above sounds normal in comparison to other people who write? Life is odd? Stress does a lot. It’s just the wheels spinning under stress maybe? I know people here probably have like the limit as far as stress goes. I have problems with myself sometimes too, I know I said ditch people who cause real trouble, and I meant real of course, and I know this is the way to go, but I've been kicked out of a living room or two myself, post traumatic stress makes you just so fun really, Especially if you drink and such. It still is big to have your own places because while you may run from your own head in circles, at least you can spill stuff on the carpet and rail at the moon in peace right? My state is near the beach otherwise my ford taurus wagan eats too much gas to get there?
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Good song, thanks!
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I like the song too, it says much about dealing with abuse and the aftershock of it.
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I have been suicidal for years. Sometimes I think that it is a genetic thing as both my Fathers Father and his only sibling both committed suicide.
These are my thoughts.
1. Don't make it someone elses "accidental" responsibility such as "Death by Cop" or Jumping in front of a train etc. That way someone else has to live with the consequences also.
2. Don't try it yourself as many attempts are unsuccessful and even if it was successful, would you really want to have someone close to you find you after you "offed" yourself in whatever manner?
I am a member of Dignitas, a Swiss Organization founded by Ludwig A. Minelli.
The website is www.Dignitas.ch (http://www.Dignitas.ch)
In February of this year the Swiss High Court ruled that it is OK for them to proceed with voluntary euthanasia for people with severe depression.
I hope I never have to use their services and continue with therapy. However I have discussed it both with my Psychiatrist and Family and although they do not like the idea, they do understand.
I also believe in God, understand that it is a sin, and do not feel that God has abandoned me. I do believe that he will understand and forgive me also.
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When it is my time to go I'm gonna buy about 10 pit bulls.. Starve em all for about a week.. beat them with a stick a couple of times.. then tie a few steaks to my body and toss myself in the room.
nah wait.. be mean to the dogs...
Ok I'm gonna have a friend of mine who is a machinist make me the worlds biggest blender and jump in head first...
No wait.. that might suck for my friend to have to clean up.
Ok I'm gonna plop my ass down on my couch and take a bunch of pain killers...
No.. damn it knowing me I'd prolly take to few and wake up a week later hungry as hell.
OK OK OK... I'd put myself in a room with Sue Scheff, Izzy, and Lexie.. I'd then give them all sharp knifes.. and I'd throw in a dvd that has the Sue Scheff's hand videos burned on it.
LOLS.. perfect.. even if I wasn't suicidal I'd sure be after spending 3.2 nanoseconds in a room with those three fucking whores.
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I agree making a spectacle or other people responsible for suicide is messed up.
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The guy who failed to kill himself with a shotgun was a moron, If you can't destroy your brainstem with one of those, you deserve to.. oh, wait. :rofl:
Just remember, if you've already decided you're going to kill yourself, you can do whatever you want before you die. What are they going to do, arrest you?
I worked in the ME's office and we heard about or saw most of the gun shot suicides as well as the attempts and more people survive than you would think and for all kinds of variables.
There was one suicide I will never forget that happened one Halloween. It was a young guy and he was really into Goth and still living with his Mom. He waited until she had gone away on a business trip and hung himself from her front porch. They happened to live on a busy road so the porch was visable to all the people driving by.
He painted his face completely white and dressed himself in layers of all this dark clothing with gloves and boots and one of those masks/hoods that completely cover your entire head except for the cut out that shows your eyes topped off with a ball cap.
He hung there for almost 4 days before the people that were driving by realized he was not a Halloween decoration. It was really cold where this happened so there was very little decomposotion that took place, if it had been warmer..someone would have figured it out a lot faster. Sad really, but he obviousley wanted to go out in a way that people would not forget, so he was successful in both ways.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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I want Danny Bennison to commit suicide
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I want Danny Bennison to commit suicide
We all do Wayne. We all do
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:suicide: :suicide: :suicide: SUICIDE: A Civil Right :suicide: :suicide: :suicide:
by Lawrence Stevens, J.D.
Thinking about suicide is commonplace. In his book Suicide, published in 1988, Earl A. Grollman says "Almost everybody at one time or another contemplates suicide" (Second Edition, Beacon Press, p. 2). In his book Suicide: The Forever Decision, published in 1987, psychologist Paul G. Quinnett, Ph.D., says "Research has shown that a substantial majority of people have considered suicide at one time in their lives, and I mean considered it seriously" (Continuum, p. 12). Nevertheless, thinking about suicide is generally speaking frowned upon and by itself is enough to result in involuntary "hospitalization" and so-called treatment in a psychiatric "hospital", particularly if the person in question thinks about suicide seriously and refuses (so-called) outpatient psychotherapy to get this thinking changed. The fact that people are incarcerated in America for thinking and talking about suicide implies that despite what the U.S. Constitution says about free speech, and despite claims Americans often make about America being a free country, many if not most Americans do not really believe in freedom of thought and speech - in addition to rejecting an individual's right to commit suicide.
In contrast, the assertion that people have a right to not only think about but to commit suicide has been made by many people who believe in individual freedom. In his book Suicide in America, published in 1982, psychiatrist Herbert Hendin, M.D., says: "Partly as a response to the failure of suicide prevention, partly in reaction to commitment abuses, and perhaps mainly in the spirit of accepting anything that does not physically harm anyone else, we see suicide increasingly advocated as a fundamental human right. Many such advocates deplore all attempts to prevent suicide as an interference with that right. It is a position succinctly expressed by Nietzsche when he wrote, `There is a certain right by which we may deprive a man of life, but none by which we may deprive him of death.' Taken from its social and psychological context, suicide is regarded by some purely as an issue of personal freedom" (W. W. Norton & Co., p. 209). In his book The Death of Psychiatry, published in 1974, psychiatrist E. Fuller Torrey, M.D., said this: "It should not be possible to confine people against their wills in mental `hospitals.' ... This implies that people have the right to kill themselves if they wish. I believe this is so" (Chilton Book Co., p. 180). In 1968 in his book Why Suicide?, Dr. Eustace Chesser, a psychologist, asserted: "The right to choose one's time and manner of death seems to me unassailable. ... In my opinion the right to die is the last and greatest human freedom" (Arrow Books, London, pp. 123 & 125). In On Suicide, published in 1851, Arthur Schopenhauer said: "There is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person" (H. L. Mencken, A New Dictionary of Quotations, Knopf, 1942, p. 1161). In a books-on-tape audiocassette version of their book Life 101, published in 1990, John-Roger and Peter McWilliams tell us: "The consistency of descriptions from a broad range of individuals points to the possibility that death might not be so bad. ... Suicide is always an option. It is sometimes what makes life bearable. Knowing we don't absolutely have to be here can make being here a little easier." Suzy Szasz, a victim of Systemic Lupus Erythematosus, confirms this view in her book Living With It: Why You Don't Have To Be Healthy To Be Happy after an acute flare-up of her disease during which she contemplated suicide: "As many an ancient philosopher has noted, I found the very freedom to commit suicide liberating" (Prometheus Books, 1991, p. 226). In ancient times (circa 485-425 B.C.), Herodotus wrote: "When life is so burdensome death has become for man a sought after refuge." In his book The Untamed Tongue, published in 1990, psychiatrist Thomas Szasz asserts: "Suicide is a fundamental human right. ...society does not have the moral right to interfere, by force, with a person's decision to commit this act" (Open Court Publishing Co., p. 250-251).
To these statements of support for the right to commit suicide, I will add my own: In a truly free society, you own your life, and your only obligation is to respect the rights of others. I believe everyone is entitled to be treated as the sole owner of himself or herself and of his or her own life. Accordingly, I think a person who commits suicide is well within his or her rights in doing so provided he or she does so privately and without jeopardizing the physical safety of others. Family members, police officers, judges, and "therapists" who interfere with a person's decision to end his or her own life are violating that person's human rights. The often expressed view that the possibility of suicide justifies psychiatric treatment even if it must be imposed against the will of the potentially suicidal person is wrong. Provided the person in question is not violating the rights of others, that person's autonomy is of more value than enforcement of what other people consider rational or of what other people think is in a person's best interests. In a free society where self-ownership is recognized, "dangerousness to oneself" is irrelevant. In the words of the title of a movie starring Richard Dreyfuss: "Whose Life Is It, Anyway?" The greatest human right is the right of self-ownership, one aspect of which is the right to life, but another aspect of which is the right to end one's own life. Whether or not a person supports the right to commit suicide is a litmus test of whether or not that person truly believes in self-ownership and the individual freedom that comes with it, the individual freedom that many of us have been taught is the reason-for-being of American democracy.
One reason some oppose the right to commit suicide is theological belief that is sometimes expressed this way: "God gave you life, and only God has the right to take life from you." Using this reasoning to justify interfering with a person's right to commit suicide is imposing religious beliefs on people who may not share those beliefs. In America where we supposedly have freedom of (and from) religion, this is wrong.
Another reason some people believe it is ethical to interfere with a person's right to think about or commit suicide is belief in mental illness. But a so-called diagnosis of "mental illness" is a value judgment about a person's thinking or behavior, not a diagnosis of bona-fide brain disease. So-called mental illness does not deprive people of free will, but on the contrary is an expression of free will (which reaps the disapproval of others). Those who say mental illness destroys "meaningful" free will or who call the beliefs of others irrational (and therefore necessarily caused by mental illness) are accepting the idea of mental illness as brain disease without adequate evidence or are refusing to accept the beliefs of others only because they differ from their own.
Sometimes people oppose the right to commit suicide because of belief in a sort of entirely non-biological mental illness. The error of this way of thinking is that without a biological abnormality the only possible defining characteristic of mental illness is disapproval of some aspect of a person's mentality or thinking. But in a free society, it shouldn't matter if the thinking of a person meets with the disapproval of others, provided the person's actions do not violate the rights of others.
Furthermore, there isn't any good evidence that mental illness by any generally accepted definition is usually involved in a person's decision to commit suicide. In her book about teenage suicide, Marion Crook, B.Sc.N., says "teens considering suicide are not necessarily mentally disturbed. In fact, they are rarely mentally disturbed" (Every Parent's Guide To Understanding Teenagers & Suicide, Int'l Self-Counsel Press Ltd., Vancouver, 1988, p. 10). Psychologist Paul G. Quinnett, Ph.D., makes this observation in his book Suicide: The Forever Decision: "As we have already discussed, however, you do not have to be mentally ill to take your own life. In fact, most people who do commit suicide are not legally `insane.' So it seems we have a very interesting problem. To prevent you from killing yourself, doctors like myself will stand up in court and say something to the effect that, by reason of a mental illness, you are a danger to yourself and need treatment. But - and this is the weird part - you may, in a matter of a few hours to a couple of days, get up one morning and say, `I've decided not to kill myself, after all.' And if you can convince us you mean what you say, you can leave the hospital and go home. Question: Are you now completely cured of your so-called mental illness? Obviously not, since the chances are you were never `mentally ill' in the first place. ... As I have said, I do not believe you have to be mentally ill to think about suicide" (pp. 11-12). Dr. Quinnett's statement is a clear admission that allegations of mental illness to justify incarcerating suicidal people often are deliberate dishonesty, even by the definition of mental illness that exists in the minds of the professionals who make the allegations of mental illness. They make these allegations of mental illness even though they know they are false because involuntary psychiatric commitment laws require a finding of "mental illness" before involuntary commitment may take place. Making deliberately false accusations of "mental illness" under oath in a court of law to satisfy commitment laws for the purpose of discouraging suicidal thinking or preventing suicide is a way to avoid coming to terms with the fact that incarcerating people only because they happen to think their lives are not worth living or because they have attempted to end their own lives is a form of authoritarianism and despotism. In the case of people who have only thought about (not attempted) suicide, it is imprisonment for mere thought-crime similar to that illustrated by George Orwell in his novel 1984.
Even people who oppose the right to commit suicide because of their belief in mental illness sometimes can be made to understand the erroneousness of their biological theorizing or their belief in some kind of non-biological mental illness by asking them if they would see any point in living if they were suffering from a terminal disease involving excruciating, unrelievable physical pain or were completely paralyzed from the neck down with no chance of recovery. Once people admit there are any circumstances in which they would choose death, they often see suicide is the result of a person's personal judgment about his or her circumstances in life rather than a biological malfunction of the brain or some conception of non-biological mental illness.
Some may feel it is right to use force to prevent suicide because of their belief that the potentially suicidal person's desire to die is probably temporary and will probably go away or subside if he or she is forced to live a short time longer until the acute emotional reaction to a recent traumatic event has faded with time. Those advancing this argument sometimes acknowledge a person does have a right to commit suicide if he or she is not acting impulsively. But most evidence indicates few if any people who commit suicide do so impulsively. As Earl A. Grollman says in his book Suicide (in which he opposes the right to commit suicide): "Suicide does not occur suddenly, impulsively, unpredictably" (p. 63). In his book Suicide: The Forever Decision, psychologist Paul G. Quinnett, Ph.D., says: "I have talked to hundreds of suicidal people... If I can make another guess about what has been going on inside your head and heart, it is that you have had long and difficult discussions with yourself about whether to live or die" (pp. 18-19). Rather than being impulsive, suicide is something people do after long contemplation as part of their efforts to deal with what they consider intolerable life circumstances.
The usual justification for involuntary incarceration and so-called treatment of those considering or attempting suicide is alleged dangerousness to oneself. But even people who don't agree with the principle of self-ownership should ask themselves: dangerousness to oneself in the eyes of whom? To an onlooker, suicide may seem to always be harmful to the person ending his or her life. But that's not how the person committing suicide sees the situation. People commit suicide because they decide continued living in their particular circumstances is a greater harm to themselves than death. This is made abundantly clear by Francis Lear, editor-in-chief if Lear's magazine, in her autobiographical book, The Second Seduction: "I ALWAYS HAVE an `exitline.' A stash of lithium. A building tall enough to kill, not maim, for godsake, not maim. One goes out in suicide, one simply goes out, gets out, wriggles, bolts, and does not some back merely smashed up or, as the first priority, left with the ability to feel. One does not go out in a half-assed manner. Suicide has many consequences. It will hurt people who love you, it can splatter the sidewalks; but its purpose, the reason for its magnetism, is that it is the only guaranteed, surefire way to end, blitz, detonate a critical mass of suffering. Suicide, reduced to its pure essence, is a delivery system that moves us from pain to the absence of pain. If the gods contrive against us and the planets are in disarray, if the earth cracks open beneath us, we must always have a way out" (Harper-Perennial, 1992, p. 26). As Dr. Eustace Chesser said, "Suicide is a deliberate refusal to accept the only conditions on which it is possible to go on living" (Why Suicide?, op. cit., p. 122).
A person's reasons for choosing death may or may not make sense to other people. In a free society, however, that doesn't or at least shouldn't matter. It is a very personal and subjective determination, so how can anyone else reasonably claim to know that a suicidal person is making the "wrong" decision in terms of "dangerousness to himself" or herself as experienced by that person? As William Glasser, a psychiatrist, says in his book Positive Addiction: "we should keep in mind that we can never feel another person's pain" (Harper & Row, 1976, p. 8). In general, I agree with psychiatrist Mark S. Gold's assertion that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" (The Good News About Depression, Bantam Books, 1986, p. 290). However, the determination of whether it is best to suffer through a miserable present in the hope of getting to a possibly better future is a value judgment. A person could legitimately decide a hopefully better future does not justify choosing to experience an unbearable present. No one should claim the right override, by force, a person's value judgements and decisions about something as personal as this.
Another factor to consider is that mental health professionals, contrary to their claim that they are preventing suicide, more often are unwittingly promoting eventual suicide. In an article in the May-June 1974 New York University Law Review titled "Involuntary Psychiatric Commitments to Prevent Suicide", New York University sociology professor David F. Greenberg, Ph.D., says studies on psychiatric suicide prevention "have been either inconsistent or negative" and suggest "that institutionalization may not prevent suicide, but, in fact, may result in more suicides" (p. 256, emphasis in original). Considering the harmfulness of today's biological "treatments" in psychiatry, the dreariness and sometimes cruelty of institutional life, and the effects of psychiatric stigma, such as lowered self-esteem and discrimination in education and employment, increased rates of suicide among suicidal people who get psychiatric "treatment" compared with a similar population of suicidal people who do not get "treatment" should be expected. The value of recognizing the right to commit suicide is not only respecting individual freedom but preventing the harm and cruelty that often go on in the name of suicide prevention.
While courts have gone both ways in right-to-die cases, judicial decisions defending the right to die are not unusual and are gaining favor. In his book Death With Dignity, published in 1989, attorney Robert L. Risley points out that in general "court cases clearly established the right to bodily integrity, confirming that the basic right of self-determination includes the right to die, and that it overrides the state's duty to preserve life" (Hemlock Society, Eugene, Oregon, 1989, p. viii).
The U.S. Supreme Court addressed the question of whether the U.S. Constitution protects the right to die in 1990 in the case of Cruzan v. Missouri, 497 U.S. 261. In the words of Time magazine, in this case the U.S. Supreme Court "declared for the first time that there is indeed a right to die" (July 9, 1990, p. 59). Of the nine justices, all except Justice Scalia acknowledged the right to die is a federal constitutional right. In his concurring opinion, Justice Scalia argued vigorously against the reasoning of the majority and dissenting opinions, both of which acknowledged the right of self-determination is a constitutional right and that it includes the right to die. Justice Scalia opposed the view of the other eight justices, arguing vigorously against what he called the right to commit suicide. But in this respect he stood alone on the Court.
Since the rationale of these cases is that people have a right of self-determination that includes the right to die, they support my assertion that suicide is a civil right even though, at present, the right to die has been upheld only in cases involving physically ill or disabled people who are conscious enough to express their desire to die or who when healthy enough to express an opinion indicated death is what he or she would want in the circumstances. In fact, this justification is probably in many cases a mere excuse or rationalization to cover up the real reason. If the sole reason for permitting death was the desire of the ill or disabled person, involuntary psychiatric commitment of suicidal people would not take place. A bona-fide but unacknowledged reason ill or disabled people are allowed to deliberately end their lives is they have become a burden to other people. In other words, just as able-bodied suicidal people are incarcerated for their own supposed benefit (to prevent them from committing suicide) when the real reason is selfish concerns of others, people with severe, permanent disability or incurable disease are allowed to die for their own supposed benefit when a real but unacknowledged purpose is to relieve others ("society") of the burden of caring for them. However, the reasoning of judicial opinions upholding the right to die emphasize personal autonomy and self-determination as the basis for the decision and therefore support my opinion that each person is the sole owner of himself or herself, of his or her own body, and of his or her own life. They support my opinion that the right to commit suicide is a civil right.
If you are a legislator who supports the right of self-ownership you should introduce legislation to delete references to "dangerousness to oneself" in your state's psychiatric commitment laws. If you are a judge deciding questions of constitutional law, you should strike down as unconstitutional laws that imprison ("hospitalize") people only for supposed dangerousness or harm to oneself. Whoever you are, you should respect the autonomy of all of your fellow men and women whose conduct does not unlawfully harm others.
THE AUTHOR, Lawrence Stevens, is a lawyer whose practice has included representing psychiatric "patients". His pamphlets are not copyrighted. You are free to make copies for distribution to those you think will benefit.
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