Post by: the sunday stealer on February 10, 2007, 11:33:29 AM
I think the middle ground tendency comes from a fear that program survivors/advocates/former program parents feel if they don't have an alternative to offer that the parents they are warning will ignore it simply out of the fact they perceive to have no other option.
Post by: Ursus on February 10, 2007, 11:33:59 AM
Post by: Ursus on February 10, 2007, 11:46:25 AM
Post by: the sunday stealer on February 10, 2007, 11:57:40 AM
TBS are bad places. You can deal with these problems on your own at home in creative ways that don't cost much money at all!
Post by: Ganja on February 10, 2007, 11:57:52 AM
Post by: Ganja on February 10, 2007, 11:59:39 AM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
If these namby pamby tit suckers want to have a safe place to talk they can start their own damn board.
:rofl: You're a gentleman; TSW. I like you. :lol:
Post by: Ganja on February 10, 2007, 12:04:02 PM
Quote from: ""a fat kid named sky""
Good post... I would add something but I pretty much agree with everything you said . Preach on.
I think the middle ground tendency comes from a fear that program survivors/advocates/former program parents feel if they don't have an alternative to offer that the parents they are warning will ignore it simply out of the fact they perceive to have no other option.
Yes. God damn people make me sick.
Post by: Ursus on February 10, 2007, 12:06:04 PM
Quote
I now realize the proof actually is right in front of me. The sheer explosion of TBS programs shows me everything I need to know about the indoctrination of the working class to accept these tough love ideas as the opiate of the masses.
Oh, it's not just working class! I'm talking well-educated bleeding liberal upper middle class! Ex-1960's hippies, that still think they are pretty much just as radical as they used to be. People you would never dream of having this mindset! The cultural norm surrounding us has lulled all their warning bells to sleep. Most people have a hard time seeing things in their historical context.
Post by: Ganja on February 10, 2007, 12:07:03 PM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
I also think there is a whole cultural or societal problem in that parents think acting out teenagers need to be subdued and controlled. And this seems to have gotten a lot worse at some point during the 1970/1980's and increased 'till today (the parental mindset). And it would appear that the last several presidential adminstrations and associates have really bought into this fear for their own personal financial interests and the "troubled teen industry" has skyrocketed. And I think it is going to get worse before it gets better, because the general populace still doesn't quite believe this is happening. Just my own thoughts, observations...
Absolutely! And to that I say, "Your pain makes me hungry! I'm hungry for pain! Your death is mine motherfucker! Don't even try to escape! Because you're mine! You are all mine! You're all in my thoughts! I will peel you like a potato! I will take out your brains and throw them to my dogs! Oh shit, you're gonna die! I'm gonna peel off your toenails like they were... cupcakes! Like they were... twinkies! You're dead, motherfucker! My life is nothing but to kill you! Revenge is mine! My words make you wanna scream like a dead dog dying from anger-- and pain-- of a dead dog! Uhhhhhh... We're gonna kick some ass tonite, motherfucker! Life! Life is mine! I take you with me! I take you, I crumble you up, I wad you into a little ball! Death picks its teeth with your head! Life! Life is mine! Yup! Revenge is mine! My war jacks off when it sees your revenge! My war is not alone! It's the only war! Anytime you get your ass down here, kick my ass, no problem! My life is better! Don't fuck with me whatsoever! Yup! Revenge is mine! I take it and I leave it! But this one, motherfucker, is mine! And you're not gettin' it! You're the one that's gonna pay this time, buddy! No prob!"
Post by: Ganja on February 10, 2007, 12:09:04 PM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
Oz Girl made some of the same observations when we were talking in pm earlier. I pointed out to her that while her theory is sound she was going to have trouble backing it up.
I now realize the proof actually is right in front of me. The sheer explosion of TBS programs shows me everything I need to know about the indoctrination of the working class to accept these tough love ideas as the opiate of the masses.
Working class? Shit....
Most of the kids shipped off are from upper class families with money to burn...aren't they?
I hear ya about the masses' acceptance and Dr. Philtard, though.. maybe that's what you were getting at..?
Post by: the sunday stealer on February 10, 2007, 12:24:56 PM
Post by: Ursus on February 10, 2007, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
Read my last post my good man. It was a sly attempt at humor that obviously has backfired on me.
:rofl: Okay, I am notoriously obtuse. I hear you now.
Post by: Antigen on February 10, 2007, 12:33:13 PM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
Remember now my brothers and sisters it was in the USSR where the secret police would swoop in and ship you off to Siberia to never be heard of again. Not quite so bad here in the USA, but it isn't looking pretty.
And this is what's so maddening about brainwashing. My dad, mine! Crazy Mac, hard workin, sharp witted WWII vet that he was actually fell for this bullshit for awhile!
There's a thread in the Straight Vets' forum called something like "29 years ago today" where Woof-a-Doof talks about understanding in a very personal way those summer headlines that seem so bizarre to everyone else. He cited Jim Jone's son's memory of the People's Temple and a couple of boys who were held captive in a regular old residential area for up to 4 years and never made any effort to escape or call for help. I would add the kid who was sniping at random strangers in DC a few years ago and the whole lot of Program parents.
How do you wake somebody up from that, though? I don't think it's really possible to surely unbrainwash someone. I think you can try. My dad snapped out of it and I can make an educated guess or three as to why. My mom and most of my older brothers and sisters never have and I can't imagine why. Anybody understand that at all? Please fill me in.
For everybody else, here's a nice read on the topic.
Quote
Gulag
When we hear of arrests in western society?
When we hear what is described as unfair treatment abusing the ?rights? of the arrested person?
It would be enlightening to know what being ?arrested? can mean.
The meaning of arrest cannot be more graphically explained than through the words of Alexandor Solzhaneetsyn in the opening chapter of Gulag Archepalego, his Pulitzer Prize winning book about life in Russia. Then, ?arrest? terrorized to tens of thousands.(Page 3)
He described arrest as? a blinding flash and a blow which shifts the present instantly into the past?.The traditional image of arrest became trembling hands packing for the victim and no one knows what is permitted.? His words scorch the pages as though synapsed from raw nerve endings to raw nerve endings, arking from memory to fingertips, to be revealed stark and real on the page so that the reader is conjoined to Solzhaneetsyns? soul searching account of what life in Russia became after 1917 when Tzarist ruled was ended by the rebellion and take over by the workers.
He revealed a history of decades of human suffering that surpassed any before it and yet was unknown to the rest of the world And how did this man describe it?
?We didn?t love freedom enough. In 1917 we hurried to submit. We submitted with pleasure. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.?
Support Fornits by buying a copy through this link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FArchipelago-1918-1956-Aleksandr-Isaevich-Solzhenitsyn%2Fdp%2F0060803452%2Fsr%3D1-2%2Fqid%3D1171128525%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks&tag=circlofmiamithem&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)(and anything else that might strike your fancy while you're there)
Post by: Ganja on February 10, 2007, 12:48:56 PM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
Read my last post my good man. It was a sly attempt at humor that obviously has backfired on me.
Gotcha, Mr. Orwell. :lol:
Post by: Ganja on February 10, 2007, 01:09:41 PM
Quote from: ""Cassandra""
How do you wake somebody up from that, though? I don't think it's really possible to surely unbrainwash someone. I think you can try. My dad snapped out of it and I can make an educated guess or three as to why. My mom and most of my older brothers and sisters never have and I can't imagine why. Anybody understand that at all? Please fill me in.
Make them smoke weed.
Post by: the sunday stealer on February 10, 2007, 01:14:20 PM
Post by: Ganja on February 10, 2007, 01:17:41 PM
Quote from: ""a fat kid named sky""
They believe we are brainwashed by the marijuana plant and drug culture. There is no real truth in this reality, just various competing sets of ideas. Personally I'd rather enjoy the more enjoyable sets of values and experiences, but there's a lot of masochistic people who love to torture themselves their whole life in search of an imaginary prize, ironically no better than their bland existence on this plane...
Well said.
Post by: the sunday stealer on February 10, 2007, 01:19:43 PM
Post by: the sunday stealer on February 10, 2007, 01:26:12 PM
Post by: Ursus on February 10, 2007, 01:27:40 PM
Quote from: ""Cassandra""
And this is what's so maddening about brainwashing. My dad, mine! Crazy Mac, hard workin, sharp witted WWII vet that he was actually fell for this bullshit for awhile!
Quote from: ""Cassandra""
How do you wake somebody up from that, though? I don't think it's really possible to surely unbrainwash someone. I think you can try. My dad snapped out of it and I can make an educated guess or three as to why. My mom and most of my older brothers and sisters never have and I can't imagine why. Anybody understand that at all? Please fill me in.
Brainwashing. Okay, my dad was a WWII vet too, but for the other side. So he spent a good part of his youth being brainwashed. At the end of the war, he was imprisoned as a POW of the Americans (Guantanamo Bay is nothing new, folks). And this is a guy who never actually participated in any of the fighting. He taught glider plane flying. After he got out, he weighed 95 lbs (he was close to 6ft tall and always had been heavyset). And then he has to finish high school. Life goes on, he goes to college, goes further and gets a PhD; during the course of all this he receives a Fulbright Scholarship to the U.S., likes what he sees, and after he's done getting his degree, he comes here to make a new start.
Flash forward 15 years, and I, his offspring, end up in a mindrape mill for a summer and 3 yrs. Let us not forget the time spent in JuVie and being locked up in mental institution for running away that preceded that.
What is wrong with our world that begets this pernicious need to orchestrate and control others? The history of human society progressed from the Feudal period in a hurry, relatively speaking. But some interests, and the means of expressing them, have died hard. Perhaps, I rather think, they haven't died at all.
Beyond the coming of age years you have all these psychobabble pyramid scams - Landmark Forum, est, Lifespring, etc., not to mention the religious cults that abound.
From physical control and repression we progress to mental control and repression, albeit sloppily, with all forms still in co-existence at the moment.
Scary times. Troubling times...
Post by: the sunday stealer on February 10, 2007, 01:31:39 PM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
How we wax poetically about the past. Yet what do we intend to do about the future?
Who balls shall we kick my good brothers and sisters?
Our parents? Or we could always blame society...
Post by: the sunday stealer on February 10, 2007, 01:41:43 PM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
The blame game is like playing grand theft auto. Its good for quick thrills, some gore, and a few laughs. In the end you are left with nothing but a crappy game you wished you hadn't spent the money on in the first place.
We could indulge in the blame game, but it won't achieve that desired end goal.
So again I ask, whose balls shall we kick? I'm not talking about one of those sissy World Cup Soccer kicks either. I talking about a 6 Nations Rugby Tournament kick to the metaphorical testicles of some group, program, or random individual.
And tee hee hee.. the random individual doesn't even have to have anything to do with programs. It would just be hella fun to do anyway for giggles!
Great question.. and it runs your brain in circles because the answer is everybody is to blame. This is a bottom up societal phenomenon, not some dictated mandate from Fuhrer Reagan. They didn't force parents to send their kids away to private programs. The legal system will not lock a kid up for as long as private programs for the things these kids are doing. A kid would have to commit murder or something to get years of lockup, and parents send their kids away for smoking pot and ditching school. There is a serious disconnect there. I don't think it's society pushing the idea on the masses, I think it's an obvious idea that anyone could come up with, that creeps into existence through various economic, political and social forces are fertile. The seed was planted a hell of a long time ago, and it's now bearing fruit in full season. Many of fruit drop from this tree and set seed.
Post by: Antigen on February 10, 2007, 01:52:58 PM
Quote from: ""a fat kid named sky""
There were some working class kids including me in the wwasps owned program I was at. The really sickening thing is its usually the poorer families who end up getting into the referring thing, out of a fear of keeping their own kid there because the family rep is telling them they are doing horrible and will die if they come home, and that bull crap. My dad was definitely not rich when I was sent away... he works as a manager at a fast food restaurant.. but my grandfather had left a 20 thousand dollar college savings account for me when I was born, and since I was 17 already it was almost up and he used that. When I came home finally a while later his house was gone and he was living in an apt. with no furniture. All those creditors finally caught up with him. I hear that the college savings thing is a common trend. All the other places I was at prior were payed for by the state or by mediCal insurance. So the last seven months until I turned 18 in a private program cost 20g plus he refered one kid to the program. ::noway:: ::noway:: ::puke:: The best part was the letters saying how I was ruining him financially and he was going to lose the house because of me. For a while I had believed that, until I found out how he really payed for it. I never understood that.. did the program tell him to say those things or was he purposely lying to make me feel bad? None of the other facilities or programs I was at worked so hard at turning father against son, it was the opposite. Fuck people who support this kind of destructive ideology.
All of this is lifted, verbatim, from as far back as the Seed daze starting in 1970 in Florida. And I'd bet dollars to donuts the RMA/CEDU and Elan and Bob Meehan parents and others all got exactly the same line of bullshit. "Well, he wasn't headed for college anyway" and "What's more important, a building (your home) or your son?" One time only, some couple of years after I got out, my mom tried to guilt trip me about all the money I made them spend on me. I just said "Well, Mom, ya know, if you had asked my opinion I could have saved you a bundle."
Mom and I don't get along so well. She's as irritated by frankness as I am by program culture. I'm just glad to be here to tell you I know just exactly what you're talking about. My mom pilfered all of our college funds except for my oldest sister, who was already of age. And she kept her mouth shut, too! We didn't even know we had an inheritance till one of the cousins slipped one summer visit. I don't think they knew it was supposed to be secret.
Nice to be able to sit here and tell you I know just what you're talking about, it's fucked up beyond belief and I know you're not exaggerating or making it up. Would have made a world of difference to me if the old heads had been around to do that 20 odd years ago instead of everybody gas-lighting us all the time. Hope it helps some.
Post by: Anonymous on February 10, 2007, 01:59:10 PM
Quote from: ""a fat kid named sky""
This is a bottom up societal phenomenon
:roll: Not this shit again. Let's see how bottom-up it is when the fine folks of a Boise County grassroots effort reply to a mild-mannered 30-something accountant type's description of this business.
TSW, the answer is: A whole lot of people.
It's my experience that ball-kicking is done best when it's done in series. You can chain these things, like a Mortal Kombat combo, and it's much more effective when you do. You don't limit yourself to "I think I'll kick the balls of these people, or maybe these people, or the people over here". No. You find out who's involved, you find the guy whose balls are gonna get kicked first, and then you kick his and immediately start going down the line. It's usually best to start on the top. Find the guy in charge of one of these major medical conglomerates, like I posted before, and kick his balls. I don't mean the guy in CHARGE charge- not the CEO- but some upper management guy whose province it is to deal with the programs. Kick his balls. Then continue to the holdings themselves. Then on to the local regulatory authorities, the local churches, the local communities. Kick their leaders' balls. Anything gets in your way, it's time for another ball kicking. Ball-kick parents only if you can score PR points in the process (or you want to, for the fun of it). Don't be conservative in your ball-kicking ("Hmm, maybe I'll kick this guy's balls, or maybe this guy's balls..."), be liberal! Kick all their balls. Worry about whether they really *needed* their balls kicked some other time. Kick balls first, ask questions later. It takes more time worrying about kicking balls, and discussing kicking balls, than it does to actually kick balls. Remember, ball-kicking is fundamentally free of charge and usually leaves no residue, depending on how hard you kick.
To sum up: Find guys who look like they deserve it, and give 'em all a good kick in the balls.
Post by: Ganja on February 10, 2007, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: ""Cassandra""
Would have made a world of difference to me if the old heads had been around to do that 20 odd years ago instead of everybody gas-lighting us all the time.
Goddamn... to think of certain times when people I've been intimate with attempt to do just that by saying things like "You're insane." to me during an argument (and mean it)..my reaction was always a big FUCK YOU, who gives a shit what you think anyway.
Post by: the sunday stealer on February 10, 2007, 02:27:11 PM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
:roll: Not this shit again. Let's see how bottom-up it is when the fine folks of a Boise County grassroots effort reply to a mild-mannered 30-something accountant type's description of this business.
And then link them to a forum where Milk and luke conspire to kill parents? yeah.. very effective. :roll:
Post by: Antigen on February 10, 2007, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
What is wrong with our world that begets this pernicious need to orchestrate and control others? The history of human society progressed from the Feudal period in a hurry, relatively speaking. But some interests, and the means of expressing them, have died hard. Perhaps, I rather think, they haven't died at all.
Well, I don't know that it's always or entirely pernicious. There must be some evolutionary benefit or we wouldn't all be cursed with the same condition. I think then when things go this wrong, which I'm convinced is a good long ways down the path toward as wrong as Stalin or Hitler or Chairman Mao or Cesar or King George (take your pick...) It's because there is an imbalance of power. Human beings were not meant to live as one global village any more than honey bees were meant to live all in one gargantuan hive or wolves all in one global pack. We're just not equipped to function this way. Someone around here recently noted that it is not a sign of good mental health to be well adjusted to a sick society. But every society, bar none, demands a certain degree of conformity, or at least respect.
When Rome started falling apart, the Goths had more influence. Satire (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?f=7) best. Old Crazy Mac was a master at making people think. I sure wish he hadn't checked out just as I started researching all of this. I bet he would have had an interesting take.
Post by: Antigen on February 10, 2007, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: ""noble program warrior""
A kid would have to commit murder or something to get years of lockup, and parents send their kids away for smoking pot and ditching school. There is a serious disconnect there.
That's still true in some places, but Florida is not one of them. They sent Martin Lee Anderson to the DFAF (fka Straight, Inc.) run Bay County Boot Camp for the heinous crime of violating probation by riding along w/ his cousin in Granny's car. Granny protested, but the state charged him anyway.
Florida is, in many ways, the darkest, coldest state in the union. But this is a growing trend too; cultivated with what used to be our money by way of Community Anti Drug Coalitions of America. http://cadca.org/AboutCADCA/Supporters.asp (http://cadca.org/AboutCADCA/Supporters.asp)
Note the similarities between their sponsorship structure, their branding and layout and overall tone to that of the grand old party? Check the BOD and other influence; this is yet another Sembler production. And, just like Ybor City, if you don't like the way they run the public space, why you can just move along, nothing to see here unless you'd like to get arrested and harassed.
If you think it can't happen here, we're halfway there. Isn't this just precisely the way these same dominion banking and holding interests went about taking over the German, Austrian, Italian, Argentine and some African economies and cultures?
Post by: Antigen on February 10, 2007, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: ""Ganja""
Quote from: ""Cassandra""Would have made a world of difference to me if the old heads had been around to do that 20 odd years ago instead of everybody gas-lighting us all the time.Goddamn... to think of certain times when people I've been intimate with attempt to do just that by saying things like "You're insane." to me during an argument (and mean it)..my reaction was always a big FUCK YOU, who gives a shit what you think anyway.
It's worse somehow when they don't say it in anger; when it's out of benevolence that your close friends and confidants tell you to ignore your gut and experience and enjoy the cakes and circuses. Now, nothing wrong with cake or circuses. I love em and all kinds of artists and performers. But there's a place for the dark humor and savory fare in balance with the light and sweet stuff.
Post by: Antigen on February 10, 2007, 03:40:31 PM
:nworthy: ::cheers::
Post by: try another castle on February 10, 2007, 10:51:10 PM
Quote
How do you wake somebody up from that, though? I don't think it's really possible to surely unbrainwash someone. I think you can try. My dad snapped out of it and I can make an educated guess or three as to why. My mom and most of my older brothers and sisters never have and I can't imagine why. Anybody understand that at all? Please fill me in.
There is this incredibly cheesy TV movie from ages ago called Ticket To Heaven. It's apparently based on a true story (for what that's worth) and it's about a guy who gets caught up in a cult, and then his friends and family kidnap him, lock him in a room, and deprogram him with the help of a "professional" deprogrammer. I remember seeing the film and thinking "damn, the deprogramming stuff was just as bad as the cult stuff." But that's a movie. Have no idea if real shit like that happens. So I guess I have no point. (surprise.)
Quote
What do we plan to do to make it a bright better tommorrow and all that happy horse shite?
Whatever it is, I think ducks need to be involved somehow.
Post by: Anonymous on February 11, 2007, 12:44:18 AM
Quote from: ""try another castle""
a "professional" deprogrammer
*blinks*
I wonder how rich one of those would get, hanging around this board?
Post by: Anonymous on February 11, 2007, 12:52:02 AM
60/oz mexi
pack of seeds and patience.. priceless.
best deprogrammer around
Post by: Antigen on February 11, 2007, 11:47:45 PM
But what do you mean what do we do? We're doing it. When all these sites started cropping up just a few years ago, nobody I talked to but a rare few could wrap their minds around this whole thing. That's changing somewhat. I think there are more people bouncing around who have some direct contact w/ the industry, but also there's kind of a growing generalized anxiety over all things toughlove and zerotolerance. Anything you can think of to generate a little more buzz, that'd be cool!
Post by: MightyAardvark on February 12, 2007, 03:06:04 AM
In fact I don't think there is a middleground to be occupied.
Some people look at this business as a sort of sliding scale. Hardcore in your face bootcamp style large group awareness therapy etc at the one end and softly softly "power of nature" sobfests at the other, and somewhere in the the middle is the ground for compromise.
That ain't so.
There are three assumptions that underpin the ethical framework of the teenhelp industry
1) children are not entitled to due process before incarceration
2) it is okay to recondition a child that does not want to be reconditioned
3) A window of loss is acceptable.
There is no middle ground, there is only evil and not evil.
I'm sorry in order to buy into these programs you have to accept the above and if you do then point blank you are my enemy. I will have no compromise with you. I will fight you until all of your works and all of your evil is dust.
Post by: MightyAardvark on February 12, 2007, 03:11:46 AM
Quote from: ""try another castle""
There is this incredibly cheesy TV movie from ages ago called Ticket To Heaven. It's apparently based on a true story (for what that's worth) and it's about a guy who gets caught up in a cult, and then his friends and family kidnap him, lock him in a room, and deprogram him with the help of a "professional" deprogrammer. I remember seeing the film and thinking "damn, the deprogramming stuff was just as bad as the cult stuff." But that's a movie. Have no idea if real shit like that happens. So I guess I have no point. (surprise.)
Whatever it is, I think ducks need to be involved somehow.
Deprogramming can be extremely brutal if it needs to be done fast. I knew a guy professionally who'd spent a long time as a "guest" of some of our Irish Republican friends. This guy could be described as "Hardened" and after some considerable time in their company they basically rewired him. It took two years of counselling and medication before we got the poor guy back.
Post by: try another castle on February 12, 2007, 04:27:08 AM
Quote from: ""MightyAardvark""
Quote from: ""try another castle""
There is this incredibly cheesy TV movie from ages ago called Ticket To Heaven. It's apparently based on a true story (for what that's worth) and it's about a guy who gets caught up in a cult, and then his friends and family kidnap him, lock him in a room, and deprogram him with the help of a "professional" deprogrammer. I remember seeing the film and thinking "damn, the deprogramming stuff was just as bad as the cult stuff." But that's a movie. Have no idea if real shit like that happens. So I guess I have no point. (surprise.)
Whatever it is, I think ducks need to be involved somehow.
Deprogramming can be extremely brutal if it needs to be done fast. I knew a guy professionally who'd spent a long time as a "guest" of some of our Irish Republican friends. This guy could be described as "Hardened" and after some considerable time in their company they basically rewired him. It took two years of counselling and medication before we got the poor guy back.
It sounds like this was more of a therapy thing. The deprogramming thing they depicted in the movie was incredibly heavy handed and confrontational. A lot like a rap. Especially since they kidnapped him against his will and kept him locked in a room. It was one of those things where they expected a very fast result. But like I said, it was a movie.