Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Facility Question and Answers => Topic started by: psy on February 05, 2007, 03:49:42 AM
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Hopefully this will get moved later into the main thread which is now locked...
So... Let's pick apart the staff shall we... comments in blue.
Advising
Amy R. McCormick, M.S.W., L.C.S.W
Assistant Dean of Advising
A Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Ms. McCormick graduated magna cum laude with her Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and Master of Social Work degrees from the University of Maine. Prior to to joining the Carlbrook team, Ms. McCormick served as a Residence Director at the University of Maine and as a Program Manager at Shaw House, a residential facility for adolescents.
Shaw House is an emergency shelter in eastern maine. I have not confirmed her employment there, but based on the website it seems it is a volunteer only thing. She is not a psychologist. She got her masters in social work.
Angela Caine, M.S.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Caine received her Bachelor of Social Science in Psychology from Indiana University and her Master of Science in Social Work from the University of Louisville, where she was selected for the National Dean?s List. She has several years of experience in individual, group and family counseling, most recently worked as a Therapist for Wellstone Regional Hospital and LifeSpring Mental Health Services in southern Indiana.
Well that's bull right there. Therapist? Without a licence... For a cult? Hint: Google Lifespring! it's est's cousin. CEDU was borne out of est and Lifespring.. no wonder they hired her.
If that's not convincing.. simply ask and i can provide lots and lots of information on LifeSpring.
Not a licensed therapist
Julie Dyer, M.S.
Advisor
Ms. Dyer holds both a Bachelor of Science degree in Psychology from Florida Atlantic University and a Master of Science degree in Clinical Psychology from Radford University. She has worked as an adolescent therapist for several years, first with young females at Tekoa Residential Treatment Center and later as a substance abuse counselor at the Division of Addiction Services in Richmond.
Okey dokey.. You are going to want to check out her former place of employment...
From the webpage "Tekoa utilizes experiential therapies to address the self-defeating coping strategies..."
http://http://www.tekoa.org/
includes the "Flying Changes Equine Program"
Well i guess there are programs in virginia..
Not a licensed therapist.
Bridget Gitthens, M.A.
Advisor
Mrs. Gitthens holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and a Master of Arts in Marriage and Family Therapy from Appalachian State University. During her years of counseling experience she has served both individuals and families in the areas of substance abuse, domestic violence and sexual assault. Her recent work experience includes positions at OASIS and Kaiser Permanente.
Unable to find information on previous employment.
not a licensed therapist
Trevor Grimes, M.A.
Advisor
Mr. Grimes received his Bachelor of Arts in Sociology from the State University of New York at Geneseo and his Master of Arts in Social Work from the State University of New York at Stony Brook. His counseling experience includes work in educational and clinical settings, including the Lindenhurst School District (NY) and the Dept. of Family Medicine at Stony Brook University Hospital.
Unable to find information on previous employment.
not a licensed therapist
Brandy Litwin, M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Litwin received both her Bachelor of Science in Psychology and her Master of Social Work degree from Western Michigan University. She possesses counseling experience with both adolescent and adult populations, having been a counseling supervisor for an adult foster care home as well as a high school counselor. Most recently she served as a school social worker at Harbor Creek School in Michigan
Unable to find information on previous employment.
not a licensed therapist
Jen McArthur, M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. McArthur, who holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from Warren Wilson College and a Master of Social Work from Brigham Young University, has worked with adolescents for several years, including at-risk youth and socio-economically challenged populations. Her experience includes counseling positions with Wasatch Mental Health, Trend Community Mental Health, and Alldredge Academy.
Hmm... Alldredge Academy again?
Hmm... Wonder if she was there when the kid died... have to check on that.
Wasatch Mental Health in Provo UT.
http://http://www.wasatch.org/
Wilderness program brought to you by the United Way!
not a licensed therapist
Johan Madson, M.Ed.
Advisor
With a Bachelor of Arts from Oberlin College and a Master of Education in Human Development Counseling from Vanderbilt University, Mr. Madson?s experience includes several school counseling positions in Tennessee and North Carolina (in both public and private settings). Most recently he was employed by the Office of Residence Life at Portland State University in Oregon.
Unable to find information on previous employment.
not a licensed therapist
Sally Martin, M.S.W.
Advisor
Mrs. Martin received her Bachelor of Social Work from James Madison University and her Master of Social Work from Virginia Commonwealth University. Mrs. Martin has worked her entire career with adolescents experiencing emotional and/or behavioral difficulties, whether as a Residential Counselor at Seneca in California, a Child and Family Counselor at Devereaux in Arizona, or as Assistant Clinical Director at Phoenix Outdoor in North Carolina.
(http://http://www.pcma.com/crisis_intervention_news/deadly_restraint/graphics/pix1.jpg)
Robert Rollins, 12
Died: April 21, 1997
Cause: Asphyxiation
Patient at: Devereaux School, Rutland, Mass.
Robert was restrained for 10 minutes, face down on the floor, after a dispute escalated over his missing teddy bear. Investigators found a significant delay in emergency response. The staffer who restrained the boy left him lying, unresponsive, on the floor. No criminal charges were filed."
Yup.. she's qualified.
Phoenix was also a Brown school (CEDU)
not a licensed therapist
Daniel Perry, M.A., L.L.P.C.
Advisor
Mr. Perry holds a Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice from Lake Superior State University in Michigan and a Master of Arts in Counseling from Central Michigan University. He has worked with adolescents for several years in both residential and private practice settings, and was previously the director of a day-treatment program for adolescents with substance abuse problems.
Curious they don't mention the name of the day-treatment program he worked at.
not a licensed therapist
i'll finish the rest tomorrow
Mindi Perry, M.S.W., L.M.S.W.
Advisor
Mrs. Perry earned a Bachelor of Science in Sociology from Lake Superior State University and a Master of Social Work from Grand Valley State University. With extensive experience in individual and family counseling, she has held a private practice specializing in children and adolescents, worked with Child and Family Services and Community Mental Health of Northeast Michigan, and most recently was a behavioral health consultant at Alcona Health Center.
Denise Prendergast, M.S.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Prendergast earned a Bachelor of Science in Psychology at Michigan State University and a Masters of Science in the School of Social Work at Columbia University. She most recently served as a volunteer in the Peace Corps in Botswana where she counseled those infected and affected with HIV/AIDS. Prior to that Ms. Prendergast worked extensively with children and adolescents in both residential and outpatient settings and was a counseling supervisor at the San Diego Center for Children.
Natalie Sisson, M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Sisson received her Bachelor of Science in Social Work from Illinois State University and later graduated cum laude with a Master of Social Work from the University of Georgia. A member of the National Association of Social Workers, she has previously worked with adolescents as a residential counselor at Chestnut Health Systems and most recently as a therapist at Peace Place.
Kathianne Smith, M.S.W., L.C.S.W.
Advisor
Mrs. Smith earned a Bachelor of Science from Barat College and a Masters in Social Work from the University of Illinois. She has over 20 years experience in the field and has worked with adolescents and families in both outpatient and inpatient settings. Certified in the Commonwealth of Virginia as an expert witness, Mrs. Smith has worked in private practice and holds over 12 years post-license experience.
one is licensed as a counselor... yay. still not a psychologist
Nathan Webber, B.A., M.A. candidate
Advisor
Mr. Webber holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from the University of Toledo and is a candidate for a Master of Arts in Professional Counseling from Argosy University. He has worked with adolescents for several years, first as a Counselor at Three Springs and then as a Therapist at Cumberland Mental Health. A member of the National Guard, he completed a tour of duty in Iraq in 2003.
well TSW should be able to tell you about where he worked
Alicia Woodworth, M.S., L.P.C.
Advisor
A Licensed Professional Counselor, Ms. Woodworth earned a Bachelor of Arts in Communication from Western Michigan University and a Master of Science in Clinical Counseling Psychology from Francis Marion University. For the past several years she has worked with adolescents as a Clinical Counselor at Circle Park Behavioral Health Services, conducting individual, group and family sessions.
one is licensed as a counselor... yay. still not a psychologist
Frank A. Chesno, Ph.D.
Consulting Psychologist
Dr. Chesno, a licensed clinical psychologist with almost 30 years experience working with families, earned his doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Georgia, with pre-doctoral training completed at the College of William and Mary. He is a member of the American Psychological Association and has served as president of the South Carolina Academy of Professional Psychologists. Currently, Dr. Chesno serves as Director of Behavioral Medicine Services at Baptist Medical Center.
I'm going to check and see if this guy is licensed.
Karen.
So two of the programs some of these staff worked for have caused the deaths of children.
Do you think it's ok for people without licenses to practice medicine?
Just because your son wasn't harmed doesn't mean that others weren't. Does your son think Carlbrook was harmless (not to him, to others)?
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I think what might be confusing for parents is when they read (if they bother to) the credentials of these people, in addition to not being knowledgeable about prior employment, is that they look at the degree and assume that means licensed. "Oh, they got a masters in Marriage and Family Therapy, so they are a licensed therapist." From my understanding, you get the degree, which enables you to then apply for certification. Once you pass the certification, you get a license number. I looked on my therapist's card, there is a license number printed right there. I looked on my psychiatrist's card, he has a medical license number on it.
Wouldn't it be prudent for parents to request license numbers for these staff, and then cross check them?
If Carlbrook is as legit as it pretends to be, shouldn't they be posting the license numbers along with the staff descriptions? I mean, it should be RIGHT THERE, right next to their degree status, by the name.
Parents should also bother to ask about the differences between a social worker and a therapist. (Obviously, not from the TBS facility.) I'm a little fuzzy on them myself. I always thought social workers were the ones who did stuff like work for CPA.
My ex has a degree in social work, and I honestly don't know if he ever had to get a license. He used to work at Walden House (he hated it. Frighteningly enough, the synanon site links to it.) but now he's working at a rehab in New York.
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i have to aggree with Deborah.. none of these people appear to be Licenced according to the state.
http://https://secure01.virginiainteractive.org/dhp/cgi-bin/search_publicdb.cgi
Use zipcode 24558 (Halifax, VA)
Lots of people listed... none from Carlbrook's website.
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Thanks for your post. You are one of the very few actual Carlbrook students who have found this forum. I would love to hear about your experience, whether you think the program was beneficial, and whether you felt it was abusive in any way.
Did you go directly to college from Carlbrook?
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Not directed at you Irv, but if this thread turns into a flame fest I'll lock it like the other one.
I'm in the middle of conducting a question and answer with some students from PV so I'm not to keen on having my forum turn into a war zone.
To Irv,
Welcome to fornits, and it will be interesting to see the differences in responses between yourself and Charly. You can either go back and re-answer the questions, or when I have time I'd be happy to ask you some new ones.
I'll say the same thing I said to Charly. Don't get caught up in the internet bullshit. Just focus on the questions and ignore the caustic comments. People here have been abused by programs or have had their kids abused in programs. Hence, their very negative impression of all programs of any sort.
To Charly,
Same for you young lady! No getting involved in troll wars!
Also congrats on that graduation. Very big occasion for your whole family. Maybe it will give your other one a bit of a prompt. Lols.
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I graduated August 04 and went straight to Rutgers. And yes, my first semester I flew off the handle. I partied just as much as most of the freshmen I knew, but by second semester, I hadn't gotten kicked out, cut back on the partying, and got my act together.
Can you elaborate on what it was like in CB? Good, Bad, Ugly... Workshops, group...
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This Carlbrook grad is good friends with my son and is recounting his experience the way he sees it. He sure knows more than I do!
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Already did. You aren't near or even in the same state as Carlbrook.
carry on.
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Okay, this is going to be a long post, so bear with me
It was......different. I've been out for 3 years now and it was literally being "removed from the stream of reality" for 16 months.
The students were broken up into teams. Boys and girls, all different peer classes. Each team had an adviser and an assistant adviser.
There were 5 workshops. One of our students went to CEDU middle school and ended up at Carlbrook for High School. He said that they were almost exactly like the Cedu workshops. Hell, the night I got out of Veneratio (the last workshop; Honor) he dropped one of the tools on me and he had only gone through the first three (Integritas (Integrity), Amicitia (Friendship), and Animus (Passion)). The tools and exercises and music...well, if you have specific questions, I'll tell you what I remember.
"Tell it all brother"... What does that song mean to you?
Groups 3 times a week. Monday and Friday were request groups, Wednesday was Team group. Request groups were always scary for me, mostly because I was what you could call...well an Omega Male. All groups had at least one adviser, if not two. Sometimes the deans and/or directors would go to group.
I didn't deal well with confrontation and I took every bit of feedback as a reflection of character (read:permanent and irrevocable) and had to be reminded a number of times, by myself, my peers, and the advisers that it wasn't.
Rules were called standards, and when you were "out of standard" you'd usually get a crew. This was disciplinary action. An hour of physically demanding cleaning. You ran around and cleaned, on the hop. The "crew leaders" were all students.
yeah.. where I was, they called it "work ethic"
In "Lower School" we were allowed 1 phone call a week, and as many letters as we'd like.
Middle School upped us to two phone calls a week.
Our letters were never censored,
How sure are you? I thought that as well until talking to my parents in detail, and realizing I didn't get many of the letters they sent me.
but they were read. Our parents had one call with our advisors every week.
Wilderness was a pre-requisite. We were all given aptitude tests before we were even considered for enrollment. I can tell you that everyone at Carlbrook was bright. The intellectual prowess was there, however neglected or misused it was.
Case in point: I got a 1380 on my SATs.....without trying.
Not bad, not bad. Similar score here, same situation (not trying).
It was enough to get me into Rutgers Engineering. (R-U-RAH-RAH) I actually recently met with a girl who was on a college visit with her parents. Things have changed some since my tenure there, but I'll get into that later.
If you were stuck, acting out, or what have you, you'd get put on a program (this has since been turned into suspension). I was put on a program because I had "flown under the radar" through three workshops, avoiding many of my deeper issues. If anyone wants to hear more about that, I'll share.
Please do. I am a rock... you know the shtick. It's all the same in all the programs. However, there is a sceptical parent reading, who I tried to convince of this, but she still remains sceptical.
From personal experience.. I know it's hard to write about, remember, or really even think about... But if you can , please. I'd like to hear about it, and it might open the eyes of a few people.
Umm..lets see. A few of my close friends didn't make it through the program. When I was there, noone had yet to turn 18 and walk. However, from what I heard from the girl on her college visit, that's changed some. We had a few runners, and runners were sent back to wilderness. After I graduated, a few students went on home visits and never returned.
Visit schedule....hmmm: Okay, first visit is after the first workshop. Its 2 days on campus. Second is after the second workshop, 2 days off campus in a 150 mile or so radius. If you lived in that area, you weren't allowed to go home though. Some of my friends while I was there were actually fairly local to the area. Third visit was 3 days off campus. Fourth visit was a home visit, 1 week. Fifth visit was another home visit. Second visit you can drive, and its almost like a precursor to assimilation back into society.
I've recieved a few e-mails from our alumni relations. One was a survey on what could've been done better to help us post graduation. As a result of this, they've been working on putting together a reintroduction curriculum.
At least in my experience, they try and convince students they are changing... So they won't start a crusade... Have you talked to recent graduates? My guess is that nothing ha (or will) change. It hasn't cince CEDU's inception... and it won't. It works (makes money)... why break it.
They make no pretenses that we're going to graduate and be little angels. They know that some of us will make mistakes. Some of us have. Carlbrook's first graduation was in May 03. It's still young, still changing. However, from what I've heard, it's become stricter and the students have been acting out worse and worse.
I haven't been back, although a number of my friends have. I do know that although it's very intense, it's also a very nurturing environment. Yes, the potential for abuse is there, with the monitoring of letters and limited phone calls. However, I never saw emotional abuse. Unless you call stark, clean, no bullshit honesty abusive.
Ok... Could you describe an example of "no bullshit honesty".
I don't, but I'm fairly conservative about these things.
I honestly can't say that I recommend the program to anyone anymore, because I haven't seen all the changes that have taken place since I graduated so my recommendation wouldn't be entirely in full faith.
Wise decision. Programs lie. I would be very interested in talking to you via phone or IM about your experiences. Can you PM me?
My personal experience....I can't say I enjoyed the experience. And I can't say that I've gotten nothing out of it.
All the people who know me say that I went to college a shit-ton more confident than I was when I went in. I don't reflect often on my experience there, but I know that I'm different and better off for it.
Do you feel you have an almost paranormal insight into other people's heads? Can you tell when they're lying? (You can't con a con)...
Do you feel you discovered a "new you".. or that you took off masks you wore before program?
The morning I went to the woods (wasn't escorted) I had barely turned 16, and I had it in my head that I was gonna drop out of high school. I was on my second public high school. I would go days without coming home; I had, at that point, regrettably gotten into a few physical altercations with my father.....home wasn't a pretty place. I was a full of shit high schooler...I lied to most of the people in my life.
Were you encouraged to rewrite your "Life story"? Multiple times?
Was what you wrote accepted... or did you have to put down what they wanted to hear to progress?
Did you ever believe what you put down? Was it true? What is truth to you? Is it what others see, or what you know? What do you know? Did fiction become reality? What were the facts?
I'm asking these questions, not for you to give me answers, but for you to think about them. The answers are your own. I've been there. I know what I went through. No. I don't know you. I can't see into your heart... And neither could they. They made a guess, and you had to accept it... How deeply did you accept it? Pretending enough.... eventually you aren't pretending anymore.
Did my parents fuck up? Yes. Did they take responsibility for that? Yes. I'm in a unique situation for being Thai, with old country parents. Thailand is a country of corporal punishment, verbal abuse, and general strictness. I kinda feel that they didn't have a chance. The differences in cultures were tough enough.
For the record: I NEVER saw a student being physically restrained by a staff member.
Oh, and I've been pmming with Charly. I can vouch for her because I am close friends with her son.
And in terms of the women that I referenced earlier, they were very nurturing, caring, and good to me. Julie Dyer and Bridget Martinson were my advisors for the second half of my stay, Amy supported my first workshop and actually was hired right after I got there, and Jen, IIRC, supported my 4th workshop.
Oh cool.. You know Karen and her son. She knows me too.
You seem to like the adcisors you were in your workshops with. I'm not surprised. Ever wonder why every student's favorite counselor/advisor is the workshop one?
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This Carlbrook grad is good friends with my son and is recounting his experience the way he sees it. He sure knows more than I do!
Well... We know now that The CEDU workshops are identical to those at CB (similar to Benchmark).
I'm very interested in what is "honesty" as well... This is most likely an example of what Lifton called "loading the language". Take note.... My guess is that honesty is something like "the harsher the truth to tell, the truer the friend who tells it"... and likewise, friendship is redefined as well ("you are your brothers keeper"(monitor, rat, snitch))... Brotherly love indeed.
Do those phraises sounds familiar?
how about "this is the first day of the rest of your life"?
Do you know how that phraise got into CEDU/Carlbrook? Where it came from?
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"Tell it all brother"... What does that song mean to you?
Honestly, I remember it being a workshop song, and that the room was dark, and I was probably crying because I was recounting some experience that I hadn't thought about for a long time.
I left a lot of my experience there. I took what I needed, threw away the rest, and integrated it with what I've come to learn about myself since then.
Have you ever tried to listen to that song? It's by Kenny Rogers.
That is an example of what Robert Lifton called the "cult of confession"... Ever wonder why you remember so little?
How sure are you? I thought that as well until talking to my parents in detail, and realizing I didn't get many of the letters they sent me.
Pretty damned sure.....my parents always asked about the letters/packages in our phone calls. And we were never barred from our phone calls. I was "on bans" with talking for two weeks while on my program and had to write everything I would have said to anyone...teachers, my student supports, advisers, everyone.
LOL... I was on bans too.. a lot. Had to do the same thing (scribble down notes)
However, I was still allowed to breach that for my calls.
Please do. I am a rock... you know the shtick. It's all the same in all the programs. However, there is a sceptical parent reading, who I tried to convince of this, but she still remains sceptical.
From personal experience.. I know it's hard to write about, remember, or really even think about... But if you can , please. I'd like to hear about it, and it might open the eyes of a few people.
Like I mentioned earlier, I was an "Omega Male". I was subservient, pleasing, accomodating, and had no personality of my own. I was a social chameleon (fake)
When did you figure that out? Program?
Are you saying that you were fake? that program helped you to be willing to show the "real you" to others? Did you "put up walls" and "wear masks"?
That is what Ofshe might described as an attack on self-image. During the teenage years, when you are still figuring out who you are, of course you are confused. All the easier to meddle with your identity. No you don't notice it.
I felt like I was discovering who I really was, that I was finally ready and willing, and "not afraid anymore" to show the "real me"...
After 5 years of thinking about it... I realize the "mask" i took off, was actually my face, and let it decay while I forgot who I really was.
It is natural to be scared, natural to be afraid, to have defense mechanisms under stressful situations. They wanted you to trust them enough to be vulnerable with them.
because that's what I thought I had to do to be accepted/loved. Three workshops didn't change a thing, even though my friends/peers/staff would call me on it all the time.
Then one day my adviser called me out in group. She told me that I had been doing the bare minimum to get by, trying to bullshit the program and what not. And it was affecting my social life. People can smell lack of self-worth a mile away, and it's toxic. You don't want that on your life. It's needy and overbearing.
And she was right. I can safely say, three years after having graduated, and completely turning both my social life and my scholastic life around, that she was right.
So she put me on a program. I still went to school and what not, but when I wasn't in school, I was sitting at a program desk, on bans with everyone but my supports, and had to do writing assignments and write in an emotional journal. I also had to read The Five Love Languages for Teens......and my advisers made my parents do it too. My mother did, my father didn't.
At least in my experience, they try and convince students they are changing... So they won't start a crusade... Have you talked to recent graduates? My guess is that nothing ha (or will) change. It hasn't cince CEDU's inception... and it won't. It works (makes money)... why break it.
Well, when the current student came to visit Rutgers, they had already implemented parts of it. Groups focused on reintegration, as well as classes and such. Yeah, it might be a half-hearted effort, but it's something.
Ok... Could you describe an example of "no bullshit honesty".
"I'm sick of seeing you act like you don't deserve the people in your life. The rest of your friends are sick of it too. You know what? Just because you tell yourself that you're not worth us, doesn't mean you get to take it out on us."
That's an example.
One of the standards for group was "no personal attacks and no attacks on things the recipient of the feedback can change. This was strongly enforced, and generally made for safer groups.
Do you feel you have an almost paranormal insight into other people's heads? Can you tell when they're lying? (You can't con a con)...
Do you feel you discovered a "new you".. or that you took off masks you wore before program?
In a sense. I found a genuine sense of confidence/self respect, something that I
a. hadn't experienced before
b. hasn't left me since I graduated.
I don't know about you, but it's pretty damned real to me.
It seemed real to me too. It's been 5 years for me... Things change.
Were you encouraged to rewrite your "Life story"? Multiple times?
Was what you wrote accepted... or did you have to put down what they wanted to hear to progress?
Did you ever believe what you put down? Was it true? What is truth to you? Is it what others see, or what you know? What do you know? Did fiction become reality? What were the facts?
I think I know what you're getting at, and you really do have my sincerest condolences that your program was twisted like that.
However, I never wrote my life story. It was never doubted, and I the only times I ever saw life stories called into question was when outlandish claims were made.....like a 15 yr old 5'0" tiny white boy from the suburbs claiming to be a member of "The Folk" (Crips)
They made a guess, and you had to accept it... How deeply did you accept it. Pretending enough.... eventually you aren't pretending anymore.
I'm not sure that they did make a guess. Every person's growth was self guided. Generally, that was accepted. They were on the money when they told me what I could be.
Well.. They were not psychic, and they were not psychologists (I looked into this). So they were guessing essentially, but with a great deal of confidence. Could you dissent? Realistically, if they said something about you, and you disagreed... who would win. In that manner, I am implying, you were influenced.
"Fake it 'till you make it."
I heard that a lot. I assume that's what you're referring to. Yeah, I tried that. It didn't work until I actually believed that I was worth more than begging for people's scraps of attention.
If there's one thing easier to spot than someone who has no self-respect, its someone who's trying to fake that they do.
What is self-respect to you?
Did you consider yourself "fake" before program?
You seem to like the adcisors you were in your workshops with. I'm not surprised. Ever wonder why every student's favorite counselor/advisor is the workshop one?
Well, when I was there, I was on fairly good terms with most of the staff. Yeah, they called me out, but it almost seemed policy to never hold grudges.
As it was in CEDU's cult predecessor, Synanon. That is where the group dynamic came from (Synanon's "Game").
There were points where I was way out of standard, and I was caught/called out/hollered at for it. But once they had made their point clear, there were no "bad terms".
Could you disagree? Who won? Every time?
What if they were wrong? And they won? Every time?
What if it didn't matter whether it was true or not... just whether you accepted it?
My experience of the staff was that they generally weren't petty like that. I've seen advisers called out in group before; either being asked to talk about themselves or to expose an underlying feeling of resentment on the part of a student. Lines of communication weren't closed.
But they were controlled...
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Well... We know now that The CEDU workshops are identical to those at CB (similar to Benchmark).
I'm very interested in what is "honesty" as well... This is most likely an example of what Lifton called "loading the language". Take note.... My guess is that honesty is something like "the harsher the truth to tell, the truer the friend who tells it"... and likewise, friendship is redefined as well ("you are your brothers keeper"(monitor, rat, snitch))... Brotherly love indeed.
Do those phraises sounds familiar?
how about "this is the first day of the rest of your life"?
Do you know how that phraise got into CEDU/Carlbrook? Where it came from?
The whole "harder truth" thing, in what I had seen of it, is something I practice in my daily life now. I have close friends now that that I can tell harder truths too. If my close friend is acting ridiculous, I will definitely hand them my two cents. That is what true friendship is. If you can't be honest with people you claim to care about, then who can you be honest with.
If you felt a friend was "fake", would you tell him/her? Are you psychic? Were the staff? Do you see a pattern?
Is it possible, that everybody was "fake"?
Being my brother's keeper?
Well, the whole "holding each other accountable" thing......there was a lot of that. However, I've seen people being called out (by both students and staff) for being a standards Nazi and a suck up. That was for the smaller stuff, like tucking in shirts, swearing, cutting across the grass.....
For the bigger stuff...well, I don't really remember. But I think I would've piped up if I walked in on two people doing lines in the bathroom. I was/am a proponent of the "safety" of a school. When shit like that starts, the whole environment is shattered and nobody is going to get anything accomplished. That's just my opinion though.
Well of course people doing lines in the bathroom would be somethign to raise an eyebrow about... But the level of control, of rules you are describing, is an example of a totalistic envriornment. Most of the rules (bans, silly stuff) were not there to make sense, but there to get you to obey rules that did not make sense.. to obey without question. It's a conditioning process.
Were you encouraged to reform your values? To write your "code of ethics" down?
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Can you tell us a bit about what the workshops entailed?
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This statement about workshops: True or false:
You were made to feel as miserable as possible (confessions, digging up childhood trauma) for the express purpose of comforting you... To build up an artificial sense of camaraderie, loyalty, and love towards your advisory/counselor and the rest of the group.
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You're right. It was a controlled environment. Completely artificial. Hell, Grant (Price, co-founder and Cascade grad) even told us that. Everything was controlled. However, you seem to be alluding to the fact that I was brainwashed to a degree. I'd say that I wasn't, but that looks to have the makings of a cyclic argument.
I won't say you were brainwashed. That is for you to decide. Let's face it, if you are/were, you wouldn't know it.
However, I can retort to the sense of fakeness/real me and all of that jazz. This is going to be a lot of disclosure, but it's somewhat necessary for me to explain to you my side of this.
Funny enough, before I even was sent away, I got into a verbal argument with some girl at my high school, and she called me out for being fake and always trying to impress people with bullshit. Yeah, that shut me right the fuck up.
Through my years in middle/high school, I rolled with the right crowd, but I was their scapegoat. I let them use/abuse me in exchange for their acceptance. I "knew" I was expendable to them, and that they just let me hang around for my overeagerness to finance things for them. I had, half-heartedly once, and seriously once, attempted to commit suicide at points in high school, and of course, played that "If I die, who'll be at my funeral, and more importantly, who'll cry."
It would suffice to say I was emo; just a few crap bands and shitty poetry away from painting my nails black. That's what I define as lacking self respect.
How does painting your nails black show a lack of self-respect?
I was insecure, and I hated it. I knew that even before I was sent away. That, for the most part, is gone now. I have good friends; people I trust. I don't worry that my parents are going to up and stop loving me because I screw up, and they actually are interested in my happiness, not just my grades.
I'm not sure why you need me to justify my satisfaction with my life, but there it is.
I suspect you'll have information to dispel some of this, and I'd like to hear it.
Well I'm not trying to argue with you at all. I'm just asking questions. Occasionally, I might share similar experiences or comment on the structure of the program... In no manner, am I trying to ask you to justify your satisfaction with life.
During my teens, I was insecure. I was just forming my identity, becoming independant, breaking away from my parents. Everybody hurts sometimes. I was "goth" (now called "emo")... as well. To a large extent, I still am (in terms of philosophy, not dress). It helped me, through art, introspection, and "crappy poetry" to explore myself, an not be afraid to show that externally. Acting class also helped.
Goth, to me, meant accepting people who for who they were, not demanding change, letting people grow on their own. It meant accepting that the world sucks, that it's fucked up, that there is no point pretending that things are fine when they're not. It was about introspection, self-exploration, and a willingness to show who you are artistically, externally, without being afraid of the condemnation of others. Granted, this was the goth movement in Ireland, and probably a bit more mature than that in the US.
In any case, the goth/emo movement is very artistic, and I find art to be a very therapeutic thing. I don't feel the movement is nearly as harmful as many make it out to be.
In program, I was told such things were to cover up who I really was... That I was fake. At first, I resisted it. I did not progress. I couldn't make it unless i "worked the program" (saying "i'm fake..."). Long story short... Eventually, I "accepted the truth" and had a dramatic realization: I really was wearing masks. All that stuff from before was just a safety blanket that I clung to. In reality, They just wanted to sever any anchor I had to self-concept. I realized this in part before I started research (suspected it, journaled about it...)... and after reading about how brainwashing actually works, I realized that portraying who I was as "fake" was integral to program's design for thought reform. I also researched into CEDU, and it's roots and discovered that I was not the only person to make these observations. when many different people come to the same conclusion independantly, it probably is worth looking into. I don't expect, or want you to say "oh my god, that is what happend to me"... If it did, you must, as I did, come to that conclusion on your own. If you like, I can point you towards some research that might make you ask a few questions.
Self confidence? After program, I felt I was more confident. In a sense, i was. I was more confident that "if i believed it, i could make it happen"... I was, on the other hand, less confident to be myself. At the same time, I thought I was the "real me".
If you want to talk about this on the phone.. gimme a call at 571 277 5341
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This statement about workshops: True or false:
You were made to feel as miserable as possible (confessions, digging up childhood trauma) for the express purpose of comforting you... To build up an artificial sense of camaraderie, loyalty, and love towards your advisory/counselor and the rest of the group.
Slow down buddy. It's taking me a while to catch up and respond to these posts.
Sorry. I'll go study for a bit and come back. Take your time at responding. Don't feel rushed or pressured, and you don't have to answer anything if it's too personal. This isn't group. You can say "i don't feel like talking about that".
And in response to that, no. Not at all. I wasn't close to some of the members of my peer group. Hell, I straight up publicly disliked some of them And I didn't feel any closer to those specific people after we had gone through the workshop. And there were staff members that had supported workshops for me, (These I do remember) that I wasn't any closer too after I had gone through said workshops.
I can say that yes, we did dig up trauma. However, I call that healing, as do most of the people who I've gotten close enough to share both my experience and the more sordid parts of my life with.
Self disclosure always makes people feel better. There is no question about that... But the purpose behind it, is not always as benign..
just read with an open mind (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html#The%20Demand%20for%20Purity) (particularly, "Demand for purity" and "cult of confession")
Synanon, CEDU's predicessor(source: Slavitz), had all of those 8 elements(source: Ofshe, Singer) described in that paper.
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On a simpler note perhaps you might elaborate on your reasons for not suggesting the program to others?
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Well... After a very lengthy phone conversation, I've come to the conclusion that Carlbrook is "CEDU lite". It shares the structure, but the severity is toned down. This probably has to do with somewhat more qualified staff.
That being said, it's still thought reform in my opinion. You must accept, or you don't progress.
Info for irvbulldogs72:
General brainwashing:
Lifton's Principles (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html)
Ofshe and Singer describe second gen thought reform (us) (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing8.html)
note... above Ofshe link just edited... if you clicked it... click again
Workshop information:
Out of the wacky sixties (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2004/4/sixties0404.html) (written by an educational consultant who thinks Synanon, est, Lifespring, and probably Dianetics (Hail Xenu!!!), are the cutting edge of modern therapy)
Ofshe and Singer's APA report on LGATs (est, Lifespring, et al.) (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html#LHistorical%20Background)
I'd be interested in the similarites between the principles described, and Carlbrook. Thanks for your info. Gotta go study though... I'll be on tomorrow sometime or later tonight.
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Okay, my conversation with psy, and some of the things I've read have been bothering me and keeping me up. Well that, and someone posted a random scream image in one of the threads that I was reading around 3:30. My speakers were turned all the way up. It howled like the bejeezus and my asshole's been clenched ever since. So yeah, I'm a little on edge
chuckles.. That is the scream of tortured children that follows the poster named the Who around the forums to remind him of his sins.
Actually it is a voice segment taken off a porno film involving an acteress named Cream Pie Cathy and Big Ron. The first time I heard it my earns rang for about an hour afterwards.
Excellent retelling of your journal workshops.
What is your impression of Grant Price?
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You go in, there's music and your supporting advisers. You assign yourself a Truth (what is true about me), get a workshop journal (I don't believe these are ever read by staff) and then start learning some tools.
Where were the journals kept and what exactly are these tools? One of the recurring themes on these forums by program supporters is their children or the program attendant claims to have learned tools. Yet for some reason they have very little success in explaining what these tools are.
Could you elaborate for us?
Also psy is a pretty smart fellow and if he thinks those links are worth looking over I'd say its a good bet that they are worth looking over. I personally tend to rely on my own experience as a staff member rather than academic papers, but then I'm not so very interested in the theory behind it all either. I'm more of a hands on sort that focuses on the practical nuts and bolts of programs.
So in conclusion, give them a read it really couldn't hurt.
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Fun fun movie: This is part of what the program's workshop techniques originated from. The psychologist's explanations on how it works... You might find intreresting. (http://http://www.caic.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1243&Itemid=12) "Landmark Forum" is "est", renamed.
Would what happened to that woman on stage be more or less severe than a typical "calling out" in group? Workshops?
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You know what happened there? That guy got Greg House-d.
So in short.....oh hell no. On the off chance that someone was trying to browbeat another student, someone, hell, usually another student would step in and let the kid respond. And our staff (save for a few members, but they generally didn't last long) were never anywhere near that cocksure.
Our groups/workshops were never that assertive. Assumptions were usually kept in check and a shit ton more questions were asked. There was actual discussion in request groups, even the more passionate and inflamed ones.
keep watching... Is it possible that it was scripted like that?
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In a similar fashion. Feedback, memory, affirmation. But goddamn was that heavy handed. Jesus. There was no nurturing there at all.
and yet... That very same woman decides to continue... and complains about this documentary when it is released (explaining how much he helped her realize the truth)... She ended up loving the "program".
See what happens when they explain how it works to that elderly lady.
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Good assessment of Grant. "Asshole" seems to be the universal descriptor. He does believe in his product and doesn't want anyone to interfere. He is willing to modify it- especially if he sees undercurrents.
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In a similar fashion. Feedback, memory, affirmation. But goddamn was that heavy handed. Jesus. There was no nurturing there at all.
and yet... That very same woman decides to continue... and complains about this documentary when it is released (explaining how much he helped her realize the truth)... She ended up loving the "program".
See what happens when they explain how it works to that elderly lady.
I did. It was plain and simple manipulation. Dude....I've seen workshop scripts. They're nowhere near that exciting. It listed the tools in the order that they were supposed to be in, and obviously how to set up the excercises, and what music went with what exercise.
And the thing that I can say as a fact differentiates the post workshop experience from this.....we don't look back fondly on all of our workshops. Hell, some people absolutely hate certain workshops. And although we get that workshop high/euphoric feeling, there is no confusion as to to the fact that it was in no way puppies and kittens.
Well. Ok. I can get that maybe it was toned down a bit from that (where I was it certainly wasn't...)..
see what these from CEDU have to say about the workshops (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=188260#188260)
Any hypotheses on why nobody remembers?
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http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/est/estpt1.html
The last exercise of the evening is the "Red and Black" game. This is a type of "prisoner's dilemma" game popular in social psychology experiments. Participants are encouraged by the trainer and by staff to "win" the game, really pour it on. Staffers become like cheerleaders, and, after the trainer has explained the game ("The purpose is to win"), participants are divided into two teams and are left on their own to elect captains and figure out how to win the game.
[COMMENT: The game, of course. is rigged. It directly follows the long "parent process," when participants are in an euphoric, emotionally primitive state in which they experience the ultimate gratifications of childhood: unconditional love and unlimited attention. After all the importance the trainer has placid an "winning," "doing whatever is necessary to win," and "creating your own reality," it turns out this game can be won only if the two sides cooperate. In the 18 trainings subjects reported on only once did participants figure out how to cooperate.)
By the time the game has to be stopped, 3 of 3"behavior" subjects (100%) reported that many people had become very excited. driven, and frustrated about winning. it is at this point the trainer steps in and harangues and humiliates the participants. He swears at them, he calls them names, he blames the arms race and world hunger on people like them, who "can't imagine winning without killing the other side."
The recrimination is very strong, and very effective. All subjects reported being affected by it and remembering it. The pattern was the same for 14 of 15 "experience" subjects (93%). Either subjects felt distraught because they tried to win by making the other side lose, or they figured out the key to winning, but they were too frightened to speak up or too self-critical to believe they knew the answer. Either way, one "experience" subject noted, everyone seemed to feel embarrassed and crushed. As one "behavior" subject noted, it was, paradoxically, a no-win situation.
Did they play the red/black game at Carlbrook?
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Sorry.. forgot to post the second part of that:
Day three, event seven:
Three of 3 "behavior" subjects (100%) reported that the homework assignment was to look at their behavior in the game and determine what was underneath the display of competitive activity. They are instructed to stay in the training room for sixty minutes of silence. During this time and at home they are to face themselves and determine what is their "ground of being," their "core." one "experience" subject recalled that the song "Games People Play" is played on the sound system.
Three of 3 "behavior" subjects reported that everyone seemed just crushed by the heavy disapproval they faced. The trainer's disgust and anger appeared devastating to many participants.
[COMMENT: The pattern that was recognized in the first night again emerges: leniency and then attack. Several messages seem to be communicated in the "Red and Black" game: (a) the trainer's values must be agreed with, even if they keep changing; (b) regression, compliance, and merging are the primary psychological states of the training; (c) humiliation and euphoria are the primary emotional states of the training; (d) the trainer's expectations for the participants obviously does not apply to the trainer or the training (e.g., they may set the participants up, lie to them, win at any cost, be dishonest, or double cross them). The double standard is a common occurrence in restrictive groups. In Vitality the trainer continually does many of the things he criticizes the participants for. The rules are for the participants, not for the trainer; he is not held to the same standards to which participants must adhere. The double standard in restrictive groups is often the cause of verbal, financial, or sexual abuses. This is a good example of the limits a restrictive group places on the participants: in Vitality it is considered to be unacceptable for participants to comment on elements of the training that break the training's own rules. It is a well kept secret, like the Emperor's non-existent new clothes.
I'd be interested in seeing how many of these you recognize: here (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/est/estpt3.html)
Again.. I have to thank you for this. It's clearing up a lot of unanswered questions.
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Sorry.. forgot to post the second part of that:
Day three, event seven:
Three of 3 "behavior" subjects (100%) reported that the homework assignment was to look at their behavior in the game and determine what was underneath the display of competitive activity. They are instructed to stay in the training room for sixty minutes of silence. During this time and at home they are to face themselves and determine what is their "ground of being," their "core." one "experience" subject recalled that the song "Games People Play" is played on the sound system.
Three of 3 "behavior" subjects reported that everyone seemed just crushed by the heavy disapproval they faced. The trainer's disgust and anger appeared devastating to many participants.
[COMMENT: The pattern that was recognized in the first night again emerges: leniency and then attack. Several messages seem to be communicated in the "Red and Black" game: (a) the trainer's values must be agreed with, even if they keep changing; (b) regression, compliance, and merging are the primary psychological states of the training; (c) humiliation and euphoria are the primary emotional states of the training; (d) the trainer's expectations for the participants obviously does not apply to the trainer or the training (e.g., they may set the participants up, lie to them, win at any cost, be dishonest, or double cross them). The double standard is a common occurrence in restrictive groups. In Vitality the trainer continually does many of the things he criticizes the participants for. The rules are for the participants, not for the trainer; he is not held to the same standards to which participants must adhere. The double standard in restrictive groups is often the cause of verbal, financial, or sexual abuses. This is a good example of the limits a restrictive group places on the participants: in Vitality it is considered to be unacceptable for participants to comment on elements of the training that break the training's own rules. It is a well kept secret, like the Emperor's non-existent new clothes.
I'd be interested in seeing how many of these you recognize: here (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/est/estpt3.html)
Again.. I have to thank you for this. It's clearing up a lot of unanswered questions.
Event One: Hallmark Reader's Digest Diet Decaf version of that. Same basic message, much more lenient undertone.
Event Three. Something akin to that.
The concept of Event Four...the localization of emotional pain bit. We used that to help focus, but we didn't do that exercise.
And Event Seven.....that's just fucked up. We did the first half, the recollection part. We sure as hell didn't transfer blame though.
cool.. what about the day three's events etc?
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I guess I'm too lazy to do my own homework, but due to the fact that at this point, based on what I've read, Carlbrook is more than just coincidentally identical to 80s era CEDU down to the terminology, the (albeit mostly less rigorous) schedule, the parental visits and correspondence policies, workshops, groups, slogans, the only difference is the inclusion of academics.
Seriously, I'm reading all of this, and going "holy crap." I know that there are similarities between all programs to some extent, but this stuff almost sounds like a CEDU clone school, such as Benchmark and Monarch. Is Carlbrook technically a CEDU clone? Does anyone know?
I'd very much like to know, Irv, did they ever tell you an origin story? Who started Carlbrook? Where the founder or group of founders got their inspiration?
I know that Brace works there, he was my old headmaster, but as far as I know, he *apparently* had no part in actually starting the school, did he? I thought he was simply the dean of students.
BTW, I congratulate you on your success. I went to 80s era RMA, got about a 1250 on my SATs, started college pretty soon after leaving RMA, graduated from Syracuse University with a BFA in painting, and think about the program very differently than you. I feel that I managed to make it in spite of my experience at RMA, as opposed to because of it. There were a lot of things that I had to "unlearn".
In addition, like you, I was the baby of my peer group, and definitely one of the omega wolves of the school. I got sent back through the first workshop while I was in middle school for the same reason you were put on a "program". I was considered to be "flying under the radar" and "not growing."
We have some similarities, it seems, (except that you chose a major in college that was much more sensible than mine.) :P
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Were any of these determinations to put people back in the program made objectively or were they the results of subjective thinking?
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For instance... was the restarting of the program done because staff just had this instinctive feeling? Or was it based on tangible measured observed data?
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Interesting. I saw several examples of both subjective and attempts at objective at three springs. Neither impressed me in any way shape or form.
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I guess I'm too lazy to do my own homework, but due to the fact that at this point, based on what I've read, Carlbrook is more than just coincidentally identical to 80s era CEDU down to the terminology, the (albeit mostly less rigorous) schedule, the parental visits and correspondence policies, workshops, groups, slogans, the only difference is the inclusion of academics.
Seriously, I'm reading all of this, and going "holy crap." I know that there are similarities between all programs to some extent, but this stuff almost sounds like a CEDU clone school, such as Benchmark and Monarch. Is Carlbrook technically a CEDU clone? Does anyone know?
I'd very much like to know, Irv, did they ever tell you an origin story? Who started Carlbrook? Where the founder or group of founders got their inspiration?
I know that Brace works there, he was my old headmaster, but as far as I know, he *apparently* had no part in actually starting the school, did he? I thought he was simply the dean of students.
BTW, I congratulate you on your success. I went to 80s era RMA, got about a 1250 on my SATs, started college pretty soon after leaving RMA, graduated from Syracuse University with a BFA in painting, and think about the program very differently than you. I feel that I managed to make it in spite of my experience at RMA, as opposed to because of it. There were a lot of things that I had to "unlearn".
In addition, like you, I was the baby of my peer group, and definitely one of the omega wolves of the school. I got sent back through the first workshop while I was in middle school for the same reason you were put on a "program". I was considered to be "flying under the radar" and "not growing."
We have some similarities, it seems, (except that you chose a major in college that was much more sensible than mine.) :P
Heh....origin story? The founding peer class hadn't even graduated by the time I got there. Hell, I feel like I was a small part of the founding legacy.
Origin story, Reader's Digest Version:
Grant Price and Justin Merritt both graduated from Cascade together in the 80's. They were close friends...blah blah. They always told themselves "We can do this better. We need better academics. We need better qualifications. And half of these people are idiots (students and staff). It takes a smart person to understand what the hell we do at TBS-es. And no corporations."
So, 15 or so years later, they went out and tried to grab big names in the industry and started their own school. Gurney, Brace, Bender, Price, and Merritt... they all cooperated in the design of the therapeutic program. So it is technically a Synanon/CEDU/LGAT based program. The debate on the fundamentally abusive nature of that aside, there were no blatant abuses on the part of the staff when I was there.
(Don't tell me, I know. I read like a goddamned brochure. But I can't help that that's the only version that I know.)
The school was founded in 2002. The first graduating class was 2003. I graduated 2004. Carlbrook is YOUNG.
The differences I've seen between this school and others.
More freedoms.
Academics.
Third party intelligence and psychological screening. You had to be smart and you had to have no clinical psychological problems. The school wouldn't take you.
Wilderness prerequisite.
Very nurturing staff. There was a point where I stepped on a lot of toes; pissed off a lot of people. There were no grudges held. And a (possibly false/illusion) sense of actual dialogue between staff and students. Like I've said, if a student though staff was wrong, totally off base, and spoke up, the hammer was not dropped on the student. Unless the student was being a bit delusional. Hell, I know people like that now.
"I'm sick of guys checking me out at the bar."
"Stop dressing like a skank and they will."
"I am not!"
"Babe, when your skirt is the shortest one in the room and you're wearing the only tube top in the middle of November...you're the skankiest girl in the bar."
I dunno...that's my definition of harder truth. I'm opinionated and I'll pipe up.
Never had to repeat a workshop. And I wouldn't say I've had to unlearn things....I've just discarded what I don't need. I have no use for "passion for my life" and I haven't "run shit on myself" in years. There's no little "you're worthless" sentiment in my head anymore. I accept my qualities, alongside my flaws, and those opinions of myself are fairly objective. I've thrown out most of the tools, possibly why they're trickling back to me so slowly. I regard the experience as rough and tough (workshops, and Carlbrook), somewhat like a rite of passage, but something that looking back, I'd rather have gone through there than somewhere where I would've flown off the handle and hurt myself or done something stupid. Was it reprogramming? Yes, I guess it was. But it's better than the shit "programming" I got from my parents at home. We're closer now. Still butt heads on things, but they've toned down the "do this or else" rhetoric and are much more focused on what's going to make me happy.
That's why my father didn't freak out and disown me when I dropped engineering for polisci and essentially had to start college over in my junior year. Well, that, and I'm pulling full student loans now, so there's a lot less coming out of his pocket.
I hope this didn't sound too much like a glowing review of the place.
Interesting. I had no idea Carlbrook spawned from Cascade. (Maybe I am behind the learning curve in not knowing that, though.)
What a web there is, no?
I think it will be curious within the next ten years to hear from other alumni from that place and see what all of their viewpoints are on Carlbrook.
Do you keep in touch with anyone from your graduating class?
Also, you spoke about it getting "more strict" and that people were "acting out" more and more than when you were there. Do you have any details on that, by any chance?
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Dude have you read the book on ASR called "What it Takes to Pull Me Through" (http://http://www.amazon.com/What-Takes-Pull-Through-Teenagers/dp/0618145451). Your descriptions of the workshops are damn near identical to what was in that book. The rock/burden thing the pictures complete with stuffed animals.... Scary to me. I'm not sure if psy linked to the article by Margaret Singer titled: How Thought Reform works (http://http://www.freeminds.org/psych/thought_reform.htm) :but it may be worth checking out. It won't give much insight into the specifics of your cedu-like(lite?) program but it may give you an idea of the mechanics of thought reform and how it works(duh). If you're wondering about the honeymoon phase it may profit you to look into "regular" cults and cult survivors.
Good questions and answers folks
*watches
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For instance... was the restarting of the program done because staff just had this instinctive feeling? Or was it based on tangible measured observed data?
Data? No. Observations yes. I sort of replied to your question above.
Unfortunately, and even MHP's will agree, there is no science to therapy. (By science I mean formula. I guess I should have said math.) It's very hard to quantify behavior. Statistical data doesn't really help on a day to day basis that much. I'm sure from your experience at Three Springs, you understand where I'm coming from.
Regardless of what it was called.. "emotional growth" is is not therapy. It's pseudoscience with a smattering of pop psychology and a heavy dose of new-age philosophy. And that's the kind description. Even programs supporters advertise it as "behavior modification" and sing the praises of it's origins in well known cults. (See the prior "out of the sixties" article)
See chart here (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html)
To change a person without consent is not ethical. You admitted that people had to at least pretend to follow the program in order to suceed... Karen's son did not suceed becuase he refused to compromise his values. Essentially... What this means, is that a person has to compromise his values (conform to the group) in order to suceed in program.
Moreover, you are forced, at the very least, to re-evaluate your self image (you said you were fake)... Attacks on self identity... workshops are loaded with examples of that. It's not blatant. It's subtle, and it's done in such a manner as to make you think you are guiding the changes. Yet... you admitted that staff did "guide" your "growth"... Of course they don't blatantly say "you will be this"... It doesn't work.. it backfires.
Think about this... If they had nothign to hide, why did they forbid you from telling your parents (they did this where I was as well).
At Benchmark... You were allowed to discuss the workshops in general with those who had been through (eg... i liked this exercise)... But mentioning the contents of the workshop to an outsider (such as a parent) was seen as probably the most severe crime you could commit in program. If my parents had been around for the parent workshop, my mother would probably have caused a huge scene after realizing it's repackaged est... She has a degree in psychology... she knows it's a cult. She would most definitely not have approved.
Why do they use these techniques? Because they produce "results"... They make the participants think they're learning something... when in reality, it's not only bullshit, but has little or no basis in accepted psychology. You don't know what you're in for until you get into the workshop. That, in itself is unethical. Therapy, in any legitimate form, has no "secrets" kept from the patient. Furthermore... in order to suceed in the workshop, you were forced to disclose things that you most likely felt uncomfortable with. Yes.. Forced. Group pressure combined with the need to comply to proceed in program. This builds an artificial sense of trust with those around you. Is this learning to trust others? No. It's fake. It's completely fake. Its' coerced. That is not right. Dragging painful memories out of a person, when they are not ready, can, and does cause serious trauma. This isn't even to mention the guided imagery, regression, and hypnosis used (on the topic of traumatic childhood experiences)...
No psychologist in the world (except maybe one I can think of) would dare use such techniques on patients. Their license would be yanked so fast... And Yet... Unqualified personnel, use such techniques on not just kids, but kids known to already be (and this is their term)... "troubled".
The only way they get away with it, legally, is by not calling it "therapy". And even then, they often forget that, unless it's in writing. That is why these schools are known as "Emotional Growth" boarding schools. They used to be more commonly known as "Behavior Modification Programs"... but as with most cults, change names and terminology often to avoid being pinned down.
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a little more about group pressure (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst4.html) (what i meant when I said you were forced to confess)
Cult members often say to their families and friends, "No one orders me around. I choose to do what I do." Getting members to think that way is one of the manipulations mastered by cult leaders who have become skillful at getting acts carried out through indirection and implication. Accomplishing this task is easier when the member is in an altered state, fatigued, or otherwise anxious or under stress.
Or all three.
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I do have a point of contention there. We weren't forbidden to discuss our later workshops with our parents. I wrote a long letter detailing my fourth workshop to my parents, which they confirmed having received and we sort of talked through the experience over the phone.
I have yet to see negative repercussions pulsing through the graduate base, and I'm in at least arm's length contact with a good majority of them, and I could get in touch with a good 70% of the graduates that I knew when I was there, and a good deal that arrived after I graduated. I understand that you are in firm belief of the fact that this is cult behavior and is unethical.....
is anyone doing anything about it? I mean, there are ways, through contact with legislation, dropping tips, CPS hotlines, and all of that, for you to enact change or regulation. And I'm sure that you'd be able to find a great number of graduates who share your opinion, having left, gone through their honeymoon phase, and then had their lives crash/PTSD/whatever is supposed to happen. You're very knowledgeable an you have strong research. Have you inquired to RRI about the cultish behavior of the emotional growth boarding schools. I mean, if they're cult busters.....you'd think they'd want to know, have some insight, or any of that.
Rick Ross already has a few programs... Since the industry is so large, i doubt it would be feasible to include every single one (maybe groups)... But for the most part, Fornits is the best place for information on the industry, and Rick Ross is just another advocate.
For every person that tries to enact legislation changing things, there are entire organizations such as NATSAP, a program protection racket, doing exactly the opposite.
Take Montana for example (http://http://www.montanapbs.org/WhosWatchingTheKids/)
Your questions in that last paragraph would take pages to answer. We're all doing what we can here....
Finding graduates... Er.. In my program... There were like 3 of those a year. Finding those program otherwise finished with... It's difficult... but i'm collecting em slowly.
Clarification... I meant to say that you couldn't mention the details until they went through thier own workshop.
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Yeah I read the book and the author does give a small post graduate thing but it's all mostly surface. The similarities are beyond the influence of a few staff people. This place(ASR) and Carlbrook are cedu-reduxs. The author doesn't ask to many questions regarding the efficacy of this kind of "treatment" but at the end does show some skepticism about whether or not ASR made any real change in the kids beyond keeping them alive. Staff also make remarks that hints at dissatisfaction with the "school". At the end some staff lamented about not being able to break a student, yet they said nothing about the student they drove to attempt suicide twice. The author also avoided talking about the girl who attempted suicide while screaming "I want to get out of here" during the post-grad update. After that first suicide attempt she was forced to tell her peer group and parents that she had sex with a boy three times(once in a restroom). The staff made her repeat the program(peer group drop) a few weeks before graduation. That very day she walked off of the grounds and threw her self at a bus(or something). She lived but you don't find out what happened to her.
This whole thing with cedu reminds me of straight. Straight, inc. programs no longer operate with that name but the programs still exist with the same problems. The cedu clones are tougher to crack due to a lack of overt physical abuse. Also the "loaded language" is like trying to understand gibberish for those who never went through the program(isn't that one of the tactic types of thought reform?).
"The harder truth"? Getting called out on your bullshit? Flying under the radar? Journals? The similarities are mind bending!!
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In the past here on fornits we've made connections from CEDU to all sorts of other programs. Almost as if the ex-cedu staff emigrated enmasse to other programs once CEDU went bankrupt over the lawsuit they lost.
Spread like a toxic sludge the little motards did.
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TSW and TAC....when/how long did it take for you guys to see things in the strong negative light that you do now. I mean, I know you worked at a facility TSW so you might have a different take on this. But people continually refer to this honeymoon period in which they have nothing but glowing reviews for their program and such, and in trying to objectively reviewing my opinion of Carlbrook, I'm taking into account for the fact that I could, very well, be in that. A little insight into that would be nice.
Sorry for the late reply. I forgot to mark this thread to watch, so I wasn't getting any alerts.
Things are gradual. I exhibited contradictory behavior to my programming the minute I got out, yet in my mind, the program was still fantastic, even though I was doing things that were understood as "part of my death", as CEDU used to say. So I existed in this contradictory state for about 2 or 3 years, and then my first girlfriend kind of gave me a wake up call when I was going on about how great CEDU was. Had she reached me about a year or so earlier, I would have dismissed her outright, so I was essentially receptive.
So, technically, 3 years for wake up, in my case. After that, years and years to process and let go of all the resentment, anger and hate. By myself. With no sounding board, no other survivors, no therapy. (I had a therapist for a while, but it never occurred to me to talk with her about CEDU.) Like I was telling silent1 in the CEDU forum, it's like a coma. People don't just wake up out of a coma and open their eyes and say "mom??" like they do in the movies. When you first wake up, you may not be able to talk, or even be aware of where you are. Your motor skills may be completely shut down, or only marginal. Depending on how severe the coma was, a person could go through weeks to months to years of rehabilitation, gradually regaining their bearings, lucidity and mobility. Sometimes, they never fully recover.
I used to think CEDU was soft-core compared to some of the other stuff I've read about places like WWASPS and Straight, (and in some ways, it is) but then when I came to fornits I read about the state some CEDU survivors are in, and it broke my heart. Others of us, however, are doing fine. Or as fine as can be expected. I don't know what makes one person weather something like that better than another, though. There are just too many variables to account for. Same way one really can't account for how someone will recover from a coma.
Recovering from the program is a cyclic process for me. You come to new understandings years later, after you think you've worked it all out. Then it goes away. Then it comes back. At least for me, that's how it is. This January, I pulled my workshop and full-time notebooks out for the first time since I graduated, to re-read and to show my therapist. It was really the first time I had actually shown what I had written to anyone else. I was surprised I even cared to look at these things again.
As for PTSD, (which I think you mentioned in another post.) I always dismissed the possibility that I had it. But I have symptoms that for the life of me I could never account for... until I realized they didn't manifest themselves until after the program... and then verified with my therapist that they are indeed long term PTSD symptoms.
In the past here on fornits we've made connections from CEDU to all sorts of other programs. Almost as if the ex-cedu staff emigrated enmasse to other programs once CEDU went bankrupt over the lawsuit they lost.
Spread like a toxic sludge the little motards did.
You know, it really freaks me out this gradual reveal which is happening about CEDU's influence. I always thought it was the obscure little place off in the corner that kept to itself and was routinely dismissed by the anti-TBS advocates because it wasn't huge enough to cause that much of a stir or be that much of an influence. Especially when there were/are places like WWASPS and Straight and the Aspen Schools to contend with.
Surprise surprise. I guess we should have expected more from Synanon's first bastard child.
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In the past here on fornits we've made connections from CEDU to all sorts of other programs. Almost as if the ex-cedu staff emigrated enmasse to other programs once CEDU went bankrupt over the lawsuit they lost.
Spread like a toxic sludge the little motards did.
Same ol'e same ol'e. It's not just the group level staff, either. Typically, program owners get a little more of a shakeup, but most stay in the biz. Very often, they'll just change the name, shuffle the officers and file new paper work. In Orlando, they didn't even shut down for a day. Kids went into Straight, Inc. in the morning and, at some point during the day, were informed that they were thenceforth clients of SAFE. They're zealots like that. That's why going after one program individually at a time is like playing whack a mole. That's why, even though I'm pretty obviously burnt out on discussion and can't really bring myself to fully engage, I'm thrilled to death over how many people are chatting it up w/ ppl from similar programs and how many outlanders are turning up and showing a sustained interest.
But people continually refer to this honeymoon period in which they have nothing but glowing reviews for their program and such, and in trying to objectively reviewing my opinion of Carlbrook, I'm taking into account for the fact that I could, very well, be in that. A little insight into that would be nice.
The Straight Virginia ppl had a turn of a phrase for coming out of that. They called it really 7th stepping. 7th stepping = graduation from regular program to aftercare. Some people never come out of it. I just talked to my sister the other night. After 30 years, she's still grateful for the psychological abuse we all received from the Seed. So much so that she pretty much threatened to have me locked up as a mental case because I still don't agree with that assessment.
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i went to carlbrook and many things people say are true i'll share details later rock on.
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First, disclaimer: I'm pretty sure I knew Charly's son. Not extremely well, but better than most there knew him, I think. He is a good guy, but as Charly said, Carlbrook didn't really get through to him...which was actually very rare.
I graduated from Carlbrook 5 years ago. I've been thinking about it a bit lately (saw some faculty recently) so I decided to Google it and came across this. I read the first 5 pages or so of the first thread, and then realized this was all from 2 years ago, but whatever. I'd still like to respond to a couple of the points I saw being discussed.
- There were some staff/faculty at Carlbrook that I didn't get along with personally, but all of them (the ones I didn't get along with included) were there because they wanted to help people. Anyone who didn't, or wasn't competent, got fired pretty fast...I was there for 16 months and I can think of two advisors that I saw get fired...one was not competent and only lasted 6 weeks or so. The other (Mark Dunn) was very competent but Carlbrook wasn't the right fit for him - he was used to a more clinical environment and had a hard time treating us like friends rather than patients. Many of his students were extremely upset when he left to start a new (and more "hardcore") school. I guess it might be surprising that that made him a poor fit for Carlbrook, but it's true. Advisors were there to keep us in line, sure, but their main job seemed to track how we were doing and update our parents on it. Almost all the time students liked their advisors, and I am still loosely in touch with a few advisors from when I was there, some of whom have moved on themselves.
- Glenn Bender is an unusual man, but he's also bright and extremely kind. I can understand that some parents might not "get" him, and if you meet him expecting not to like him you might end up not liking him...but once you get to know him he's a great guy.
- I'm a little upset about the insinuations that Tim Brace would abuse people. The worst I could say about Tim is that he can be a little intimidating because he's got a strong personality...but he would NEVER hurt anyone and it's ridiculous to suggest he would. He's the heart of Carlbrook and he's really just a wonderful man. He's like a warm and caring grandpa. He'd yell at you in group if you did something really stupid/against the rules (like drinking window cleaner to try and get high; yes, people did stuff like that), but it would be because he was disappointed/frustrated that you were impeding your own progress. It's really hard to describe Tim to someone who hasn't met him, so I'll just say this: if everyone was a little more like Tim Brace, the world would be a much better place.
- The rest of the board of regents is awesome. Justin Merritt and Grant Price are the founders of the school, and were Cascade students themselves once. Justin, at least back when I was there, was in charge of pizza, movies, and getting us into college. Grant did admissions, and he'd also make time to tell people what jackasses they were when they...well, acted like jackasses. Kelly Dunbar does admissions now; I didn't know her that well but whenever I talked to her she seemed nice and intelligent. Andy Coe is one of the smartest people I have ever met, and I don't think I've ever seen him be wrong about anything. I never felt like I knew him that well, but somehow he seemed to be able to read me like a book. Jonathan Gurney is an extremely sweet and funny man, and I'm glad he's the Dean of Alumni because it means I still get to talk to him. John Henson...didn't interact much with students, though I was lucky enough to spend some time with him and he's just a fun guy to hang out with. Gillan Smith got to Carlbrook after I graduated and I don't really know him. Pretty much every student liked pretty much every board member (yes, even Grant, who I'll admit can be a bit scary the first time you're in group with him).
- Groups were often (though not always) very aggressive/confrontational, and I was on the receiving end more than once. Sometimes I deserved it, sometimes I didn't. I think that in general, aggression in group was appropriate/on target around 90-95% of the time. Which is, I want to emphasize, not 100%. It could be very frustrating and stressful, but in most cases it helped people in the long term.
- Workshops were awesome experiences...they were transformative. It was amazing to see some people go into a workshop and come out a few days later a changed person. It seems creepy and cultlike when you first get there, but once you go through it yourself you understand. It's like an emotional cleansing...no one is perfect, and most of us live our lives under layers upon layers of stress and emotional "gunk". Especially the kind of people who end up at Carlbrook. Workshops are intense because they peel away those layers, which leaves you feeling emotionally raw for a while but stronger and happier in the long run. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a very small amount of overlap with brainwashing techniques, but that doesn't make CB workshops brainwashing. When our parents visited, they would go through truncated versions of the same stuff, and many parents, including my own, found them just as moving and powerful as we did. And most of those parents were not vulnerable/confused/"messed up"/whatever in the way that we were, so I don't see how 50 of them could have sat in a room and been brainwashed over the course of 3-4 hours. For what it's worth, my workshop preference ordering was Teneo > Veneratio = Integritas > Animus > Amicitia. There are something like workshop preference archetypes (in that a lot of people would share my preferences), but they are pretty varied (many people would also have very different preferences, though perhaps similar to each other).
- I was on a program once. I don't want to compromise my anonymity so I'm going to be a bit vague, but I will say that I was very angry at first, which gave way to confusion, then tentative confidence, and finally things clicked into place for me. It lasted 5 weeks or so and it was probably the hardest thing I did at Carlbrook but also the most important. Programs can be unpleasant but they are basically how Carlbrook delivers personalized and focused therapy (as opposed to workshops, which are the same for everyone). They work, and it's worth being unhappy for a few weeks if it helps you grok something important about yourself.
I'll try and remember to check this thread, so if anyone has questions I'd be happy to answer them, though I mostly know the school as it was 5 years ago as opposed to now.
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The other (Mark Dunn) was very competent but Carlbrook wasn't the right fit for him - he was used to a more clinical environment and had a hard time treating us like friends rather than patients. Many of his students were extremely upset when he left to start a new (and more "hardcore") school.
Sorry, just realized this was a bit unclear. Mark wasn't the right fit for Carlbrook overall, but many of his students still liked him a lot, including a couple students who were themselves not quite typical Carlbrook students. So when he left, they were upset. And what he left to do was start a new school which better fit his style. Hope that clarifies things.
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Hopefully this will get moved later into the main thread which is now locked...
So... Let's pick apart the staff shall we... comments in blue.
Advising
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Last response for now...I don't know all of these advisors, and didn't know any of them extremely well, but I knew a few Amy, Julie, Jen, and Sally. I wouldn't call any of them unqualified. Sally in particular is one of the coolest people I've ever met.
Because of the CB demographic/style (less clinical, most kids have emotional issues but not personality disorders) I don't think being a good CB advisor requires a degree in psychology. It requires being smart and being caring. A good advisor is like a wise big brother/sister...they're looking out for you and trying to keep you in line, but they're also your friend.
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See this is just what I don't understand... I stumbled upon this thread weeks ago while googling my therapist that I see privately... she is mentioned various times on here... including in some of these most recent posts... I guess I just don't understand how the opinions can differ so drastically about this school... terms ranging from torture- thought reform- abuse- and brainwashing... to- the best experience of my life... and really helped me...
I understand that people often differ in opinions... but this is truly strange. I can't decide whether I believe that my therapist was part of one of the kewlest therapeutic boarding homes on the planet... or whether she was part of some creepy cult like institute...
this is all so very inconsistant.