Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Michelle. on April 08, 2003, 04:13:00 AM
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Hello everyone,
I want to get the truth out there --
I spent some time in these programs. I was first at Brightway for intake, evaluation, etc. then was moved to Cross Creek Manor for the majority of my time in Utah. I was 16 years old then. It was quite awhile ago (1994) and now I'm 25. I am a student at New York University and have decided that it is time for someone to compile a factual research paper on Cross Creek, WWASP, and specialty boarding schools in general. I've been doing lots of research online and came across these boards. I'd love it if anyone -- especially former attendees, parents, etc, could let me know anything specific you feel comfortable sharing in terms of your personal experieneces. I am also wondering if anyone would be interested/willing to do an online interview with me or take a survey about your time in the programs.
I'm doing my best to start going at my research from an objective angle, but do have my own experiences to share and will do so with anyone that contacts me. (if you are interested) I just want to get facts and put forth an accurate picture of what these places are about, what goes on, etc.
I'll keep any sources confidential and total discretion is assured.
Also -- here is one more question:
I want to gain access to the Cross Creek Programs. I'd like to get inside and take a tour, etc. I am fairly certain no one is going to let me in for this, but I figure it's worth a shot to ask. I'm ready and willing to head to LaVerkin if the opportunity presents itself. If anyone has any ideas as to the best way to go about this, gain access, etc. I'd appreciate it.
Basically I just want to get the truth out there, and I'll do anything/be a part of anything that anyone else has going on to try and do the same.
Feel free to contact me for any reason.
Thanks for reading and hope to hear from some of you soon.
Best,
Michelle.
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Michelle how would you sum up your time at Cross Creek?
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as I think I mentioned I was 16 when I was at cross creek. I didn't have a drug,alcohol, or abuse problem like a lot of people there. I had run away from home because of some differences between my folks and I. They sent me there because they felt I needed to be in a secure place.
Here's some of what I can recall:
At first I went to Brightway. It was demoralizing, to say the least. I felt like I was in jail and knew that I wouldn't move up and out until I "came to terms with my issues." Once I did and said I knew I needed to make changes they sent me to CCM. It was the scariest place I had ever been. I moved right on into the basement and was determined not to make waves. I was the quiet kid who didn't cause trouble or do anything wrong. Girls walked around like zombies. My roomates warned me about specifc girls to avoid. My second night there a fight broke out in the hallway and I saw one of the girls I had been warned about getting restrained for the first time. I was terrified. I started noticing that almost everyone used the same kind of speach (ie:"my experience of you is______," etc.) It seemed like everyone was programmed. Some of the girls were nice, I made a few friends, and thought I was learning how to navigate my way through. Then one night -- in the middle of the night -- staff came into my room with a flashlight, woke my up by sticking it in my face, roughly pulled me off of the top bunk, put my wrists in a lock (which was not necesary since I never resisted or would have had they just asked me to get up). I was horrified and confused being woken up this way. I kept asking what was happening and no one would answer me except to make snide remarks like, "you know damn well," et al. I was taken down the hall to the isolation rooms. I was left in there all night with no blankets -- just the mattress on the floor and the lights on. The next day I was moved down to the rec center and put in a room alone all day. Finally I was told what was happening . . .
some girls had told staff that I had "run plans," which was ridiculous, because I was smat enough to know there was no way out and knew that if I cooperated my parents would let me come home.I was told to write a minimum of 5,000 words on why I would not run. I did it all in one sitting. Staff belived that I didn't have plans to run and after another two nights in isolation I was let out.
Girls would often "nark off" other girls in order to curry favor with staff, even making things up to look better. It was frightening because you never knew what might happen.
Later I was back in the good graces of the staff and was going to be moved upstairs. I returned home from the rec center that night to be dragged into iso. again. This time I had no idea why. It turns out that Glenn Roach went into my room to take my stuff upstairs and found gym shoes in my bag of unused clothing. Her husband Steve yelled at me, called me a cheat and a liar, etc. I had no idea the shoes were there -- when I came in from Brightway they missed them when they went through my stuff and now I was again being acused of having shoes because I planned to run. Finally I was able to get out of iso., explain myself, my parents were called, etc. Then I was moved upstairs.
Things were better there -- but memories include being pushed and poked in the chest on three ocassions by staff.
Mainly I remember witnessing bad things happening to other girls left and right. The mentality that you had to adopt and verbiage that you were required to speak in bordered on cult-like. Guilt was prevalent and interwoven throughout therapy, group time, and daily activity in general.
School was a joke -- you sat there all afternoon doing modules out of work books with the radio on some easy listening St.George radio station. There was nothing that was simillar to a real classroom setting.
Over all my personal experineces there weren't as awful as some and there were some nice girls and staff, but it isn't what they present to parents, kids are abused physically and verbally, their rights are taken away, and you're made to feel very badly.
I could go on in more detail, but this post is already pretty long for now.
Thanks for reading. Let me know if you have any questions or would like to know more.
Also, keep in mind this was back in 1994 and I have not been there since then.
Best,
Michelle.
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One more question --
does anyone know where to look to find a list of what states allow children to be detained against their will, or where to look in state law code (in my favorite state Utah, for example)for this sort of info. I know that not every state allows for this. The great state of Washington, my home state, doesn't allow it, but I know that OR, ID, UT, MT and obviously a host of others do. I'm looking for resources to help clarify the very real legal question of, "how can they do this?" that so many ask.
If you have any advice on where to look, etc. please post it or let me know.
Thanks so much!
Best,
Michelle.
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They can do it because they don't mind ignoring such laws. Altho - I'd assume if there are states where a minor can't be held aginst their will they're careful to not set up shop in that state. However, I've been informed there is a Federal law which states, (I'll be paraphrasing), anyone held in such a place as these programs, has the right to speak with outside authorities to report abuse and or neglect - and This law is most certinly ignored by WWASP and others of this ilk.
Since your doing some reserch - see if you can find the actual statute.
I'd sure like a copy of it.
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Its also illegal in all states to send a kid across state lines for "treatment" or services that he could obtain in-state.
Interstate Compact on the Placement of children requires that both states approve the placement and be notified in advance. Its also illegal to send your kid across state lines to live with a non-relative unless the previous requirment was met.
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I was under the impression those laws only pretained to childern in state care.
The state can't send them out of state for care they can get in state. I believe its mostly a cost saving measure, and seldom actually helps the child in need of services. I don't know that it pretains to what parents do, in a private pay situation, at all.
I could be mistaken, but that was my understanding of it.
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Anasazi Wilderness (Arizona) enforces the Interstate Compact so Face Khan must be on to something. See their website for details about their admissions policies and procedures.
:cool:
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Thanks for the info. I saw on the anasazi website that they require parents get a Interstate Compact certificate. At least they're attempting to follow the rules. WWASP could care less. I've spoken with the fine folks at CCM on the premise of wanting to send a child there. All they want is a quick phone interview, assurance that you can pay, and then they'll be more than happy to get things going. They "strongly recommed" that you use Teen Escort Services to get your kid there and told me that the law says they have 24hrs to get your child from the place of pick up to the facility while holding them against their will. I'm going out for a visit within the next month to check it out. I'm curious/scared to see how it's changed/grown since I was there, and to keep my eyes open, ask questions, etc.
I'm still looking for exact verbaige/statues on which states allow this kind of imprisonment of children and which don't. I seem to find everything but that.
Michelle
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ICPC pertains to anyone sending a child across state lines for care or adoption. Programs hate this law. It requires time and they like to strike while the iron's hot.
Good luck getting anyone to enforce it. When my ex incarcerated our son out of state I tried. Texas deferred to Ga. Ga said the facility was exempt. Tx would not act. The stoolies at the state didn't even know what I was referring to. I sent them detailed information and they still did nothing. Letters to politicians didn't get a response.
The ONLY facilities that are exempt are traditional boarding schools that DO NOT include any kind of therapy or behavior modification.
The law and specifics are on-line for anyone to read.
There is also a copy of a letter to ICPC at Stuggling Teens (search ICPC-link not handy) in which someone wrote to ICPC for clarification. They said indeed Wilderness and TBS were NOT exempt from ICPC.
The Industry would like to change this law. Those of us who are actively involved need to watch closely for this and speak out if/when the time comes.
Deborah
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kids who are 18 (legal age of majority) should look into filing a lawsuit against the state(s) which failed to protect their rights under the provisions of the Interstate Compact. See Milonas v. Williams.
:cool:
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http://www.youthlawcenter.com/htm/ylc_omvw.htm (http://www.youthlawcenter.com/htm/ylc_omvw.htm)
In Milonas v. Williams, staff attorneys challenged conditions at a secure residential facility in Provo. After a four-week trial, the federal court permanently enjoined the owners of the school from using a lie detector as part of the "therapy" program, censoring students' mail, locking students up in tiny isolation cells for long periods of time, and using excessive physical force on students, including the common practice of grabbing students' hair and pulling backward, known as the "hair dance." The court's decision is particularly noteworthy inasmuch as it is the first federal ruling in the nation holding that children in "private" facilities may claim the protection of the federal Civil Rights Act in seeking relief from harmful institutional practices. The school's owners appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit, which unanimously rejected their arguments and affirmed the District Court's ruling. The owners then appealed to the United States Supreme Court, which also rejected their arguments.
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I'm confused. The first article I found stated that this took place in Nevada. I then found a link that stated Provo, Utah.
Anyone able to clear this up?
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-04-11 20:17 ]
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One of the defendants was an adjudicated youth from Nevada placed at Provo Canyon. The other was a private-pay placement. Here is a link that details the case - note the director of the Interstate Compact was also named in the complaint....
http://njda.msu.edu/Milonas%20vs%20Williams.doc (http://njda.msu.edu/Milonas%20vs%20Williams.doc)
Also note the distinction "color of state" (meaning federal funds were being used to pay for the so-called treatment ... ergo FEDERAL VIOLATIONS). Private programs who accept funding from Medicare would meet the criteria for COLOR OF STATE. Ditto adjudicated youth.
:cool:
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Make that one of the "plaintiffs" (not defendants) ... sorry about that.
:cool:
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Aah well its good to know its illegal what these places do in all. Of course that doesn't seem to be stopping them. I mean technically speaking if the ICPC was enforced it would shut down the entire industry except for a handful of programs like Anasazi which don't mind following the law.
FYI: Anasazi is a long-running wilderness program that has a pretty good reputation considering the industry it is in. I still don't consider it legitimate therapy but unlike the vast majority of these programs, I don't believe the operators should be hauled out in the middle of the night and shot for torturing teens. If a parent is absolutely set on sending their kid to one of these things it is probably a safe bet but I think there may have been a death there recently if memory serves.
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Unfortunately parents can send or take their minor child anywhere to any program they pay for. The Interstate Compact deals only with children under federal, state, or local government control not those under parental control. It was interesting reading some of the legalese of the above mentioned case. The kids didn't get any money but their lawyers were paid.
People trying to sue WWASP have had to go to the Utah district federal court and have not been very successful. However, the judge in the Virginia court was not kind to the father who sent his 12 year old son to Tranquility Bay.
It seems to me that you have to get out of the WWASP area of control.
I'm interested in WWASP because a now ex-friend sent her 17 year very timid daughter to CCM. The girl was kept there until she was nearly 19 and finished the 'program'. But was she allowed to go home and restart her life? Nooooh, she was made to live with her therapist in Utah and to go to Dixie College. Was this girl into drugs? I doubt it. She did drink some alcohol, ran away from home once, and was probably having sex with her boyfriend. (As far as sex was concerned, her older brother and sisters did that too at 17.) The parents had good reason to be angry and to punish her, but CCM was way over the line. I told the woman that she was breaking the law because her daughter was an adult, and that even when she was a minor she was entitled to privacy, free speech, and a social life. The mother told me that there would be dances and parties with boys at CCM. Is that true Michelle? :lol:
I told this ex-friend that if she were my mother I would never forgive her. Probably the only way to get to WWASP is by the back door. Have some kid sue his parents for hiring someone to brutalize them. This would have to be done in a court near the kid's home. If enough cases are won, perhaps there would be a precident for the parents to sue WWASP because many parents are thoroughly deceived by WWASP. I just don't think kids are that mean spirited to do that to their parents.
By the way Oregon does not allow lock-up schools for minors. There is, of course juvenile detention halls. Mt Batchelor Academy is a controversial school but kids can walk away from it and not return.
Michelle, from what my friend told me and from what little I could find on the net, it seems that girls arrived at CCM very late in the day. Did girls arrive at all different times?
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Janet,
Wow, how did your ex-friend manage to secure her daughter at CCM until she was 19? Or was the daughter just so warped by then that she believed she needed to stay on and finish The Program? That is really, really sad. I can't imagine anything worse than getting out and then having to stay in southern Utah, or thinking that you are so screwed up that you needed to.
When I went to CCM there were certainly no parties or dances with boys -- there was no nearby boys facility back then, but now I doubt they have any contact with them at all. There was nothing that resembled normal social functions of any kind while I was at CCM.
A lot of times girls did arrive late in the day. I was driven there from Brightway in St. George at night. I can remember the car ride there and thinking that I wished I could disappear into the darkness and knowing it was the last time I would see the outside world for awhile, save for those Dr.'s visits in Hurricane. Sometimes girls would be dragged in when we were still at the rec center -- I recall one time when a girl who has apparently been at CCM before was brought in, she was drunk or on something and resisting. We were all sitting around in groups in the large room/gym/whatever the hell it was. I was coloring in a kids colorbook (what I did to keep from going insane there) and all of a sudden the door opens and this girl is literally dragged down the stairway in restraints. Yes, she was resisting, but I remember thinking -- why did they have to treat her that way -- VERY roughly, saying degrading things, and bringing her in and humiliating her in front of everyone? It was one of those things that was supposed to scare us and make us see what would happenif we messed up when we got out, etc. It was a horrible thing to have to see and it's just one of the many things I'd blocked out, but obviously not forgotten about until you asked about girls coming in at night. I think maybe people usually arrive late so you don't really know where you are, but that could be speculation. Girls were came at all different times, but I do remember many late ariivals where there would be a new girl in the hall way for roll call at night.
Interesting what you said about Oregon -- right before my southern Utah experience my folks sent me to Pioneer Trails Adolescent Facility in Gresham, OR. right outside of Portland. We are from Seattle, so it was close. It was a lock up. I hated it, and begged to come home and they let me out very quickly. But, when I looked for it online it seems to no longer exist. I assumed you could have lock ups there because of that, but it's good to know that I may have been wrong.
I was probably a lot like your friend's daughter -- I was quiet, sometimes timid and shy. I had a few behaviour problems and ran away once when I turned 16. I had never done drugs and didn't smoke or drink like so many of the girls. My folks and I mainly disagreed on my choices of friends and the use of my time. The running away was what pushed them to this because they were scared. I, unlike the girl you mentioned, was able to get out of CCM in a relatively short period of time in comparison. My time there was damaging and I cannpt imagine what two years would have done.
That place seems to tear down, reprogram, and strip girls of their identity. It makes girls feel weaker and more damaged then they really are. Like if you don't work the program there is no help for you. It is really a sick thing. I can see how extreme behaviour modification is necessary in some cases, but not that kind of modification. The main thing is that these places are majorly misrepresented to parents. They aren't boarding schools with mixers and dances -- they are prison/institutions that aren't appropriate for the average "troubled teen."
Michelle.
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I could of course be wrong but my understanding the ICPC was that it did apply to parents. Why would Anasazi insist on it if it did not since I don't think they take state money being a religious organization.
I would speculate that there have been many cases where people were held beyond the age of majority in these places. WWASP is a cult like straight so I doubt they have any problem forcing someone to stay there even if they had every legal right to just walk out. In some of those places they are quite far from anything else so at the minimum a legal adult who wants to leave has zero money no one they can call and just the clothes on their back so what are they to do?
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Good point -- if someone has no resources and has been so isolated for so long they are probably scared to be out in the real world. I do remember that there was one 18 year old who was still at CCM when I was there and had been in since she was 14. She stayed because she wanted to, but from what I understood she could have left had she wanted to. I guess I just thought of being 18 as the magic number -- so many girls talked of wanting to be 18 to be away from the threat of the lock up.
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check out this website for more info on Provo. Note reference to senior staff named Litchfield and on the webpage STAFF, a guy named Karr F --
(Farnsworth?) Aren't these the same names seen associated with WWASP in news articles?
http://papamugz.tripod.com/page8.html (http://papamugz.tripod.com/page8.html)
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here's the url to the main page. Check out the links to other websites too.
http://papamugz.tripod.com (http://papamugz.tripod.com)
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Thanks for the links!
And yes, Litchfield = WWASP, so although PCS isn't listed on their site as one of their "schools", it looks as if they have their hands in everything. Karr Farnsworth has been heavily associated with WWASP almost since their beginning. He has held about a million different positions. They seem to move people around all the time, but the names are always the same.
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fixateen.com registered to roger litchfield
teenatrisk.com registered to narvin litchfield
not sure if these litchfields are related to each other but thought you might want to check it out. Good luck.
teen5000.net or teen5000.com registered to karr farnsworth.
All in Utah
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The compact DOES apply to parents unless they are sending the teen to another relative or to a traditional boarding school. See below.
http://icpc.aphsa.org/documents/Regulations1.htm (http://icpc.aphsa.org/documents/Regulations1.htm)
6. (a) Pursuant to Article VIII (a), this Compact does not apply to the sending or bringing of a child into a receiving state by the child's parent, stepparent, grandparent, adult brother or sister, adult uncle or aunt, or the child's guardian and leaving the child WITH ANY SUCH RELATIVE or NON-AGENCY GUARDIAN in the receiving state, provided that such person who brings, sends, or causes a child to be sent or brought to a receiving state is a person whose full legal right to plan for the child: (1) has been established by law at a time prior to initiation of the placement arrangement, and (2) has not been voluntarily terminated, or diminished or severed by the action or order of any court.
http://icpc.aphsa.org/documents/Guidebook_2002.pdf (http://icpc.aphsa.org/documents/Guidebook_2002.pdf)
Children placed out of state need to be assured of the same protections and services that would be provided if they remained in their home states. They must also be assured of a return to their original jurisdictions should placements prove not to be in their best interests or should the need for out-of-state services cease.
TYPES OF PLACEMENTS COVERED
The Compact applies to four types of situations in which children may be sent to other states:
? Placement preliminary to an adoption.
? Placements into foster care, including foster homes, group homes, RESIDENTIAL
TREATMENT FACILITIES, and institutions.
? Placements with parents and relatives when a parent or relative is not making the placement.
? Placements of adjudicated delinquents in institutions in other states.
1. In determining whether the sending or bringing of a child to another state is exempt from the provisions of the Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children by reason of the exemption for various classes of institutions in Article II (d), the following concepts and terms shall have the following meanings:
(a) ?Primarily educational institution? means an institution which operates one or more
programs that can be offered in satisfaction of compulsory school attendance laws, in which the PRIMARY PURPOSE of accepting children is to meet their EDUCATIONAL NEEDS; and which DOES NOT DO one or more of the following:
(1) accept responsibility for children during the entire year;
(2) provide or hold itself out as providing child care constituting nurture sufficient to
substitute for parental supervision and control or foster care;
(3) provide any other services to children, except for those customarily regarded as
extracurricular or cocurricular school activities, pupil support services, and those services necessary to make it possible for the children to be maintained on a residential basis in the aforementioned school program or programs.
5. The type of license, if any, held by an institution is evidence of its character, but DOES NOT determine the need for compliance with ICPC. Whether an institution is either generally exempt from the need to comply with the Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children or exempt in a particular instance is to be determined by the SERVICES IT ACTUALLY PROVIDES or offers to provide. In making any such determinations, the criteria set forth in this regulation shall be applied.
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The TBS my son attended listed with their state as a Boarding School. It appears to me that they, and others are attempting to catorgorize themselves as Traditional Boarding Schools with an "Emotional Growth Cirriculm".
[BTW, Even if they were classified as such, this would not cause them to be exempt from ICPC because they are offering more than standard extracurricular activities, administer behavior mod, and care for teens year round.]
This $5K/mo facility bragged about being a college prep facility and their accreditation with SACS. In fact, my son spent 20 mo there and was 5 credits behind his peers when he returned home. He was an A/B student prior.
Ways to ensure that the compact is enforced: States require Ed Cons and other agencies who refer or send teens to comply.
Officials require all programs in their state to inform parents of ICPC procedures.
The Ed Con who refered my son never met him, refered to an unlicensed facility, did not have the state required license to refer out of state, and it was questionable if she violated the ICPC because she did not personally take him to Ga(his father did).
Again, the state didn't have a clue how to proceed with this. Last I knew the Tx Ed
Con was under investigation by CPS. The TBS in Ga was being investigated for license violations. Unless they received a wavier to operate as an "experimental program", they were to be classified as a Residential Care Facility and subject to regs. Their Wilderness program was required to be licensed as such right away. I requested to be notified of each state's decisions in these matters but wasn't. I haven't followed up.
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Face,
In terms of Anasazi, the following is posted at Struggling Teens under Current News:
ANASAZI FOUNDATION
(February 13, 2003)
At the request of attorneys on both sides of the case regarding Anasazi, all press has been temporarily removed from this site until the case has been settled.
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Perhaps it is something minor that doesn't involve the abuse of a teen. Who knows?
Since Anasazi is a "non-profit" organization, there BOD may require them to be in compliance with ICPC.
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I think there may have been a death there recently and there is a wrongful death suit pending.
Still the reason I said those things is mainly from the policies they claim to abide by. For example they do not allow "escort services" to bring the teen there which I just see as a good sign.
Once again its not therapy and I don't believe it works, but its sorta like pointing a gun on your kid and pulling the trigger knowing that the guy who loaded it knows the difference between a blank and a bullet whereas with WWASP and many others could not care less whether they loaded it with a blank or a bullet they get their money either way.
Maybe I am being too generous but at least there are a few programs that can be looked at as not just a bunch of megalomaniacs who torture kids for fun and profit. At least I hope there are. It will be a lot easier to get the enforcement authorities to clean up this industry than it will be to get the congress to turn down all those donations and legislate it out of existence.
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This is about a doctor in private practice in Arizona. The teen advocates website has some links to information about the case/investigation.
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Deborah, that appears to apply to parents who do not have full custody of the child. WWASP has shown little regard for making sure they have the approval of both custodial parents.
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Janet,
It's not real clear to me what you're refering to.
If you are refering to ICPC, read the Articles at the links I provided and post the rule which you believe states that ICPC applies only to non-custodial parents.
Deborah
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Deborah, unfortunately in our democracy there are loopholes galore. This country has a rule that any law in one state that does not contradict something in the U.S. Constitution has to be respected by all the other states. If one state allows you to do something that you cannot do in the other states you can leave your state to go to that state. Parents with full custody of a MINOR child can send the child anywhere without getting permission from the ICPC. No law can be made to stop you from taking your own child across state lines or outside the country if the child had a passport. One law that state lawmakers are trying to pass is to make escort services unlawful. These schools do not like this law and work hard to stop the passing of such a law. Now if the school violates it's own state's laws, (and I doubt that any state says it is okay to abuse children), the ICPC MIGHT be able to step in.
Reading what TBS cannot do has loopholes that from what I know about CCM, WWASP covers. For instance, they may have parents come and visit the child before a year is up to eliminate the rule which states they cannot be responsible for the child for a full year. #3 which states the services they can provide, the "pupil support services" can be left open to a lot of interpetation. I am not a lawyer but I worked with medical insurance contracts so I know how people can read into long convoluted statements, and how they can elaborate on short undefined statements. One of the major WWASP players is a lawyer and he makes sure they meet absolutely minimum requirements, including licensing.
BTW, California has one of the strongest laws about lock up schools, even though CEDU schools have been in California. That's why so many parents from California send their children out of the state or country to WWASP schools. The District Attorney for Alameda County took the Van Blarigans(sp?) to an Oakland, California court for denying their 17 year old son his civil rights by sending him to Tranquility Bay. The judge ruled that since he was a minor they could send him to TB. From what I read the Van Blarigans were fundalmentalist Christians, and felt that their son was not Christian enough. Whatever the reason it was not because he was a child in trouble! If the DA for Alameda County can't keep a kid out of a WWASP school, the ICPC can't.
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Anon,
It's obvious to me that you did not read the Articles of ICPC and I'm not going to argue apples and oranges. Parents are required to get permission from ICPC. If they are placing their child in an out-of-state BM facility, they are required to comply with the requirements of ICPC. One of those requirements is to gain permission from both STATES, after a thourough evaluation has been conducted.
The only point we might agree on- It's unlikely the law (which carries penalties for violations) will be enforced. There are too many of "them" banging on ICPC's door for leniency.
Perhaps this letter from the Secretariat will end the confusion. Other links below.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1996/10/news02.html)
INTERSTATE COMPACT ON
THE PLACEMENT OF CHILDREN
(A Statement on how it relates to wilderness programs)
(The Interstate Compact was amended in the mid-seventies by all states as one part of the massive social legislation initiatives that swept the nation in the wake of the post-WATERGATE elections. The purpose of expanding the Interstate Compact was to give state governments notification and some control over placement of nonadjudicated youth from other states. This part of the Interstate Compact has not yet been consistently enforced. When it has been enforced, one important impact the Interstate Compact has is it requires parents to obtain permission from both state governments before they can place their child in a program in another state, even if the states have no other involvement. To my knowledge, there is no federal law relating to the interstate placement of nonadjudicated children. -LON)
May 21, 1996
The Honorable Richard Pombo
U.S. House of Representatives
Room 1519 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Dear Congressman Pombo:
You have asked our organization whether the Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children (ICPC) applies to the placement of children in ?Wilderness Camps.? The answer to your question is that ICPC does apply if the placement is ?interstate,? or in other words from one state into another. When children are removed from the care, custody, and control of their parents or other legal custodian(s) and placed into programs for behavior modification, the Compact applies just as it does to other placements into residential treatment facilities. These wilderness camps generally apply rigorous discipline as a means of dealing with behavioral deviations. Whether placement in such a camp is appropriate for a particular child is to be determined by evaluating each particular case. If the child is an adjudicated delinquent, the placement will be made by a court as required in Article VI of ICPC. If the child is not being sent as a delinquent, the placement may or may not be by a court. But I must stress that placement in a wilderness program is the same as placement in a residential facility or program and, as far as ICPC is concerned, it is the same as placement in a group home or treatment center which does not qualify as a hospital or similar medical facility. I hope this explanation of ICPC in relation to ?wilderness camps? is of help to you and your staff.
With best regards,
Frank Barthel, J.D.
Secretariat Association of Administrators of the Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children
An affiliate of the American Public Welfare Association
810 First Street, NE., Suite 500
Washington, DC 20002-4267
(202) 682-0100, Fax:(202) 289-6555
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A couple more links:
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1994/12/news01.html)
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1996/2/news01.html)
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1999/4/seen01.html)
Utah programs reported at the Outdoor Behavior Healthcare Industry Council (OBHIC), meeting in Clearwater, Florida, that in Utah the Interstate Compact for the Placement of Children (ICPC) state law is being tightened. The ICPC Utah law is similar to the law in all other 49 states and it mandates, among other things, that a child cannot be placed in a program in another state by his/her parents (or any agency) without prior approval by both state?s Compact Manager, who has the power to disapprove the placement if the Compact Manager thinks the placement is inappropriate.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-04-13 20:53 ]
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Deborah the standard exemptions are hospitals and boarding schools. Back to square one. The formation of the ICPC goes back to the '70s and the Oakland, California judge said the parents could send their son to TB in 1999. What I read from the secretary is that "when children ARE REMOVED from the care, etc. of their parents, etc.", it is talking about placing children in government custody not parents sending their non adjudicated minors to camp. When children are adjudicated, the parents may place them in a boot camp in lieu of jail or prison. (Some states have no qualms about putting juveniles in with convicted felons. So much for states looking out for children!) One of the witnesses at the Virginia (West Virginia?) trial was sent to TB by his parents in lieu of going to prison in Ohio. He had to stay there for several months after he turned 18.
Most of the WWASP programs are, and I use the term losely, boarding schools and, as far as I know, none in Utah are wilderness programs. So Utah tightening Outdoor Programs leaves WWASP alone. Utah has had some problems with their outdoor programs recently.
You are right, the ICPC does no good if it is not enforced. Quite frankly states are cutting funds for social services under which this would be covered. No money,no staff, no enforcement.
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Michelle, I wanted to get back to you to tell you how WWASP keeps kids over 18 years old. They have something like an exit strategy. They tell the parents to tell the now adult kids that if they leave before completing the program, the parents will only give them x amount of dollars, usually enough to live for several days in the student's hometown, and then will have nothing to do with them. This is what my ex-friend did.
Call up WWASP on Yahoo or google and look for a Denver newspaper series called "Desperate Measures" One young man who was a good student, an athlete, well-liked by his peers and teachers, and was not a substance abuser or a juvenile deliquent was sent to a WWASP program. The reason his parents sent him to a WWASP program was that he mouthed off to them. Surprise! Surprise! That is de rigueur for a teenager. A majority of parents would be thrilled to have that be the only problem with their teenager. When he turned 18 he opted for the money. As soon as he could he called one of his former teachers who, along with some old friends, picked him up and brought him to the teacher's home which happened to be a few houses from his parents home. From the teacher's house he called his parents who refused to speak with him. This happened in the late 1990s. Let's hope the parents have long since come to their senses and have tried to rebuild a relationship with young man who was just growing up.
I wanted to tell you, Michelle, that I had a father who was very intelligent, (he graduated from school in 10 years at the age of 16),generous to a fault, very loving and extremely responsible. Yet, at the age of 16 as a high school graduate, he ran away from home. So running away from home may not be the smartest thing you can do, but it is also not a sign that you are a potential felon.
I also wanted to say that my ex-friend's daughter was extremely fearful BEFORE she was sent to CCM. She was afraid to learn to drive a car. From what I've learned about CCM or any WWASP program, that was the LAST place this young woman should have been sent. I come to these posts in hopes she has finally been released from UTAH and comes here to vent her feelings.
Janet
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As for the exit plan wwasp encourages -
it is typically fifty dollars and a bus ticket to the nearest large town.
No futher help until they return to the care of WWASP and graduate.
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Hello Michelle.
I just read your account of experiences at cross creek. My niece is being sent to Ivy Ridge academy in NY. How can I be sure that bad things will not happen to her there? All the people that my sister talked to over the phone were very supportive and extremely congenial. After reading things posted on this web site, I'm basically freaking out.
Can you give me any advice?
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Get her out of there and into some kind of legitimate outpatient therapy. Show your sister these boards and the testimony of other wwasp inmates on this site. If that does not work its time to think about how far you are willing to go and whether you can bring the courts into it. Its been done most recently in virginia in an almost identical situation to yours. The kid was in a wwasp facility in jamaica and his relatives had a court order his father to bring him home. But Ivy Ridge is very new and it is unlikely that you will find people to testify to the conditions there.
You should probably also look into informing the New York child protection and mental health licensing authorities and getting them involved. If they find problems there they can remove the children and close the place very quickly.
[ This Message was edited by: FaceKhan on 2003-04-20 16:59 ]
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Here's a link to an article about this debate.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /icpc.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2003/4/icpc.html)
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Here's that testimony:
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/ (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/)He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
--Albert Einstein
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A family member of mine was recently sent to Majestic Ranch in Utah. Please comment or provide as much details as possible regarding Majestic Ranch and WWASP affiliation.
I am also extremely concerned.
Thanks for any info.
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MAJESTIC RANCH Randolph, Utah
8/1991 Jodi Tuttle and Carol Gundry refer for retainer, not commission
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1991/8/seen01.html)
6/1992 Majestic Ranch Review at Strugglingteens
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /np02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1992/6/np02.html)
2/1997 Purchase of land from Steve and Nancy Cowdrey of Spring Creek
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews04.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1997/2/news04.html)
Majestic part of WWASAP, opened in 1997
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg8-desperate.shtml)
Intrepid inquires about ownership, assoc with WWASAP
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... etter.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/karrletter.html)
Link may not work, but is cached at Google
http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:ub ... n&ie=UTF-8 (http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:ubkw0J219FoC:www.intrepidnetreporter.com/TeenHelp/karrletter.html+%22majestic+ranch%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)
6/2002 Att General Press Release
http://attygen.state.ut.us/Press (http://attygen.state.ut.us/Press)%
20Releases/pressreleases%20June%2014%202002.htm
6/2002 Dir Wayne E. Winder- felony charges, aggravated sexual abuse and dealing in material harmful to a minor, as well as three misdemeanor counts of child abuse.
http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jun/06152002/utah/745780.htm (http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jun/06152002/utah/745780.htm)
6/2002 AG?s Press Release
http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/PrRel/prjune142002.htm (http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/PrRel/prjune142002.htm)
12/2002 Winder- Felony charges dismissed. Two counts misdemeanor child abuse.
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:BT ... n&ie=UTF-8 (http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:BTqMmNh0LAUJ:www.sltrib.com/2002/Dec/12052002/utah/8391.htm+%22wayne+e.+winder%22+%2B+felony&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)
10/02 Rich Co stats from Workforce- Majestic one of largest employers.
http://jobs.utah.gov/wi/Regions/norther ... richfs.pdf (http://jobs.utah.gov/wi/Regions/northern/rich/richfs.pdf)
6/03
Wayne E. Winder was arrested and charged last year with one first-degree felony count of aggravated sexual abuse and three class A misdemeanors of child abuse while director of Majestic Ranch Academy. The boarding school is affiliated with World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools Inc. of St. George, the same company under which Dundee Ranch Academy operated in Costa Rica.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510033604,00.html (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510033604,00.html)
Wayne Winder is currently the Personnel Director and Daily Living Coordinator. He has been employed by Majestic since April, 2001. He has a Bachelors of Science degree in Criminal Justice Administration. Wayne has worked with children in the past as a Police Officer and a Youth Corrections Officer.
http://www.majesticranch.org/directors.html (http://www.majesticranch.org/directors.html)
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Michele - Good name as it's mine, also. Listen, I'm responding to your posting. I am a parent that had a child at Spring Creek Lodge. Luckily, I woke up before it was too late. My son was there for 2 1/2 months. Everything that they tell parents is a lie. If you would like more information you can contact me at michelezip@ comcast.net.
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Michelle,
I was hoping I may find out from you if you had been to visit CCM yet. I have a relative there and I am very worried about her being there but can not approach her aprents on the subject. I'm pretty sure they're going to keep her there until she's 17, she's only 15 now and has been there 3 years already.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
K
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She has been there since she was 12? 3 years and likely 3 more to go. Her parents should be shot.
They have got to be insane. What the hell is their daughter supposed to do when she gets out and has to exist outside of the cult? Of course considering what her homelife must have been like, she might be better off.
When Dr. Drew says you ought to have to get a license to have a kid these days I always hope he means because of parents like this.
"What a piece of work is man? How noble in reason. How infinite in facilities. In form and moving, how express and admirable. In action, how like an angel. In apprehension, how like a god. The beauty of the world. The Paragon of Animals. "
[ This Message was edited by: FaceKhan on 2003-06-20 22:59 ]
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you can do some legal research at lexis.com or westlaw and use natural language search terms. these services are not free. or you can go to your local law library, ask the librarian. they are usually more than happy to help assist with research. best of luck to you
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if one considers sending their child to theses facilities, the admission councelor/rep can arrange a visit.
take it from here.....
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That's the best advice I've seen in a long time. Instead of fearing a place that has been around for a long time and has a high success rate (no, no numbers, just real live humans) GO and visit, talk with everyone, even the kids alone without a staff person present and see for yourselves.
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fair enuf. but dont take your kid w/you. go see first. think long and hard. there are "consequences" to that decision.
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On 2003-06-20 22:34:00, FaceKhan wrote:
When Dr. Drew says you ought to have to get a license to have a kid these days I always hope he means because of parents like this.
Well, hope springs eternal. But, having stumbled accross a helping of Dr. Drew from time to time, I have a feeling he'd like for these parenting licenses to be issued by the Parent Corps. One has to multiply thoughts to the point where there aren't enough
policemen to control them
--Stanislaw Lec
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http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com/ (http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com/)
This is a documentary on WWASP.
click on movie at the top of the site and you
will get more info!
peace,
Z
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they won't let you speak unsupervised to students.
If you talk to a 'student' there I guarantee they've been there a min. of 9 months and are on level 5 or 6 and Already Brain Washed.
These institutions are a nightmare and I am appalled that parents are falling for the con!
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On 2004-03-17 08:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"they won't let you speak unsupervised to students.
If you talk to a 'student' there I guarantee they've been there a min. of 9 months and are on level 5 or 6 and Already Brain Washed.
These institutions are a nightmare and I am appalled that parents are falling for the con!
"
There's a sucker born every minute---P.T. Barnum
Unfortunately, this con (TBS industry) is worse than most in that it abuses children as a means to the end of sucking more money out of their parents.
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On 2004-03-17 08:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.coldwaterthemovie.com/
This is a documentary on WWASP.
click on movie at the top of the site and you
will get more info!
peace,
Z"
Not quite exactly a documentary on WWASP, as I understand it. I think this is a docudrama (fiction based on fact) on the entire troubled parent, private teen prison industry. Though WWASP is a big player in that arena, they are by NO means the entire industry or the source of all the problems.
Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln
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Hey, Peace Z - you're in some kind of la la land if you think this move would even resemble a wwasp school. Did you take a look at the "location" photos? Looks like some termite/rat infested podunk backwoods joke.
They better get in production cuz I heard that some of the parents involved in the movie industry are making one that is based on the truth.
Coldwater - better get some COLD water to wake them up! :rofl: :wave:
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On 2004-03-17 19:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey, Peace Z - you're in some kind of la la land if you think this move would even resemble a wwasp school. Did you take a look at the "location" photos? Looks like some termite/rat infested podunk backwoods joke.
They better get in production cuz I heard that some of the parents involved in the movie industry are making one that is based on the truth.
Coldwater - better get some COLD water to wake them up! :rofl: :wave: "
HAH! The Passion of the Parents ... yeah, right.
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Oh, you mean like Not My Kid and Gone Way Down so vaguely resembled Virgil's shinning vision of Straight, Inc.?
The more things change, the more they stay the same. :roll:
Seriously though. There's been a growing number of Program themed productions floating around through the years. There's a Disney movie called Holes, a few episodes of Twilight Zone and Outer Limits themed on brainwashing and BM schools. Hell, even going back as far as The Stepford Wives, which was based on the mischief of Dr. Cameron up in Canada, the arts have been treating the subject.
Now, it's actually only about 2% of the teenage population that land up in these godawful places. As you folks delude yourselves that you're so doggone right that you must, eventually, prevail and force your views on the rest of society, the arts and media will probably pick up on it more and more.
Let's not forget that Ryan didn't write Coldwater. The project was already well on it's way when he found out about it. This is the troubled parent industry's worst nightmare; professional outsiders interested in turning a buck by telling the story. It takes a thousand voices, but eventually every story gets told.
Applying computer technology is simply finding the right wrench to pound in the correct screw.
--Bastard Administrator
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Okay, now, my daughter has been there for 2 months now. Before we sent her to Cross Creek Manor we tried individual therapy, group therapy, inpatient, outpatient, changing schools, you name it...we tried it. My daughter has a manipulative behavior and has problems with cutting. Unfortunately now that I have read your posts, I am confused all over again. We thought that we were doing the right thing. She is very rebellious at the school. She goes up and down. Some good things have come from this. I can tell just from her letters to me each week. I communicate with other parents and graduates on a BBS service. Everyone there seems so supportive. No one ever seems to have anything bad to say. I have often wondered why that is. Maybe now that I have read this, I am just paranoid. Anyway, I think that I am going to ask to talk to my daughter this week. They suggested that we not do this for at least another month. I really do love my daughter. These posts that claim that the parents that send their children away are horrible must not understand. I was afraid for my daughters life. There was no place in our state that could keep her as an inpatient with schooling. CCM offered this. Even when we had her in the hospital they couldn't force her to take any medication that was prescribed for her without her consent. She's only 13! Aren't these doctors confident enough in their abilities to know better than a 13 year old? Please, if anyone has any comments that are constructive and not abusive, I am willing to listen. Believe me, if I find out that any of this stuff is true-I will help try to bring this group down.
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The wounds of sending your daughter away are still fresh. Reading the postings on this forum are going to bring fear, so I would ask you to talk to your daughter's Family Rep, or better yet, ask to speak to the Director and tell him about what you are reading here. WWASPS has not gone without noticing what is being posted here. There is a website they've created that tells the truth, and has many letters of support. http://www.wwaspsrebuttal.com (http://www.wwaspsrebuttal.com) - That's what I would focus on. The parents on the BBS can say anything they want to. Attacks are not allowed, and those are few and far between anyway. If you read the postings from the grads, it's clear that it's not all fun and games. But what they will all say is that they are living lives that are true, not fake anymore.
This forum hurts parents like you with its ugly attacks. It's human nature to look at the dark side, but that's not what your daughter needs you to focus on. If you have a support group in your area, go and meet the kids that have been in CC or the other schools. That tells a better story than anything you'll see written here or even on the BBS!
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Read the WWASP Crimes Report which can be found at:
http://http://www.isaccorp.com/wwasp.html
It contains some CCM-specific information but, more than that, it will give you some idea what kind of organization you re dealing with.
Some of the allegations, like corporate layering and false company registrations, can be easily verified from public records.
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your daughter needs professional help. read your enrollment agreement. are there educated, trained counselors, certified teachers, etc. there
not speaking to her in two months: check the isaccorp.com website for warning signs of abusive centers.
intrepidnetreporters.com i believe has an article about cross creek.
i doubt she will be able to work out her problems there in the very limited time during the day where the kids are allowed to speak. I suggest you go there today and check on her.
that would be my advice. the wasp "supportive" bbs and the people i talked to, what i found when my son got out of wasp was that was all quite frankly bullshit.
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I feel very strongly,If your daughter is cutting; is mentally ill; you could not have made a worse choice.
I understand why you did and I don't mean to be attacking you. I understand you think you finely found an answer to a horrible and extreamly troubling situation with your daughter; but in my opinion, you were sold what you were looking for but it is not at all what your going to get.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lastly, I want to make a statement of personal regret. There where occasions, during my time using the WWASPS board, that parents would ask about the appropriateness of the program for a mentally ill child. I?m thinking specifically of Borderline girls, altho, I think what I am about to say would apply to many others as well. I do have a better than average laymen?s understanding of BPD. Thinking I knew how the program was managed, I at times advised worried Moms and Dads that the highly structured environment and close therapeutic relationships could be good for their BPD daughters. I always pointed out how very much the condition could vary and that no blanket statement can ever be made. Thats still is true... But I am fearful now, having come to understand the realities of the Program better, that these girls, or any mentally ill child, could be made very much worse by the kind of stress and ill treatment they would be enduring. I am very fearful the kind of girl that most concerns me, could be made seriously suicidal; and it Must be understood, no one ever seems to be turned down for WWASPS placement, due to the Program being an inappropriate treatment for a child?s problem. I am deeply regretful that I may have added to the probability of causing real and lasting psychological harm.
http://strugglingteens.com/news/lettert ... karen.html (http://strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/burnettkaren.html)
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You might find some help and answers here. Lots of info on cutting:
http://www.mhsanctuary.com/borderline/ (http://www.mhsanctuary.com/borderline/)
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On 2004-03-30 03:00:00, Kiwi wrote:
"Read the WWASP Crimes Report which can be found at:
http://http://www.isaccorp.com/wwasp.html
It contains some CCM-specific information but, more than that, it will give you some idea what kind of organization you re dealing with.
Some of the allegations, like corporate layering and false company registrations, can be easily verified from public records."
Before you get too hung up on ISAC and their validity, you may notice that you will see a lot of "in our opinion", so you can see that it's not based on fact, but opinions. THey sure look legitimate, but I have my doubts, big time.
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I would not recommend a punitive "structured" program for any child with a major mental illness.
I also believe that because of the relatively high risk of suicide, BPD should be reclassified as one of the major mental illnesses.
Take a hint from the US military. They do not accept people with major mental illnesses, or even many of the minor ones, as recruits to go into Boot Camp. If they discover a major mental illness or even many of the minor ones, they will discharge the recruit "for the good of the service" right then.
They don't do that because they don't like people with mental health problems. They do that because they have long experience and recognize that the highly structured "break you down to build you up" format of boot camp works well for mentally healthy men and works okay for mentally healthy women, but has very bad results with mentally ill people.
While many of these programs aren't "boot camps," their punitive structure and confrontational therapeutic model is very much the same psychologically as boot camp.
Your daughter may well need residential treatment, but the kind of treatment appropriate to a child that shoplifts or gets in fistfights or breaks into neighborhood houses is *not* the type of treatment that will help her problem.
Any residential treatment program that accepts teens with those problems is going to be inappropriate for a teen with *your* teen's problem.
*Your* teen needs the facility to have enough control over the facility to keep her away from sharp objects, and a supportive therapeutic model focused on therapies that have good support in scientific studies for actually being effective in the treatment of her disorder.
Behavior Modification facilities almost universally lack rigorous clinical studies supporting their claims to "success" in treating specific mental illnesses. Instead, they generally rely on testimonials and the feelings of parents of being satisfied with the service---without any objective measure (and tests to make those measurements *do* exist) to show that improvement actually occurred.
At least one study I'm aware of showed that parents and former students referred to the researcher by a BM facility gave the researcher glowing reviews for how much they'd been "helped"---but objective measures of the depressive symptoms that they'd supposedly been helped with showed *no change*.
Buyer Beware. Big time.
There is a lot of bad residential treatment out there, and you can't tell by cost---some of the bad places cost an arm and a leg.
Look for a mental health facility that takes patients with mental illnesses but *doesn't take* patients with criminal misbehavior problems, that has a supportive rather than confrontational therapeutic model (group therapy, done right, can be good---but in residential centers, it may be a warning sign of confrontational approaches where newcomers are yelled at for their percieved failings by oldcomers--ask lots of questions. Buyer Beware).
Ask detailed questions about the food and water. With some facilities, the claim that the food is "plain, but nourishing" has been a euphemism for food that is calorically and nutritionally inadequate to the level of activity of the teen. The day's meals should have enough calories for an active teen of your child's body weight, and should be balanced by protein, carbs, and fat. Fresh fruit and vegetables should be abundant in the menus. Weigh your child on visits to check for sudden, unexplained weight loss. Ask, specifically, and get it signed and in writing, that your child's food will not be reduced or altered as punishment for rulebreaking.
Your child should *not* be carrying around and having to refill a plastic water bottle---those things build up e-coli like no tomorrow. Tap water should be clean and readily available. Look for water fountains or lots of disposable paper cups and trash cans.
Out of the blue on a visit, unannounced, ask to see your child's dorm room and where she keeps her clothes. Verify that there are plenty of clean changes of clothing in her size, as well as enough storage (dressers, closets) for ample change of clothing for any roommate(s).
Check her toiletries, unannounced. She should have plenty of soap and shampoo and toothpaste and a toothbrush (in good condition), there should be ample toilet paper in the bathrooms, as well as ample menstrual supplies wherever they're kept. Make sure the showers are clean.
Go to the cafeteria at a mealtime and verify that the children are actually eating what you've been told they are.
Check the kitchen and verify that the supplies on hand seem adequate to supporting that volume of children eating what you've been told they eat.
Talk to your child's therapist at the facility and ask him/her to discuss with you the therapeutic model he/she is using and his/her views on the relative merits of supportive versus confrontational therapeutic models.
Ask very detailed questions about exactly how infractions of the rules are dealt with, and with timeout kind of punishments, ask very detailed questions about where it takes place (ask to see the room---don't take "no" for an answer---if they try to put you off it's a major red flag). Make sure the room is neither too cold nor too hot. Ask if students being punished in this fashion are required to assume specific positions or postures and/or are restricted from changing positions or postures. Get what you are told signed and in writing.
There is good residential treatment out there.
There is also a lot of bad treatment and misleading if not outright fraudulent claims made to parents about the treatment of their child.
It's like hiring a contractor to do work on your house---fraud and bad practices are rife, you *really* have to do your homework.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't use residential treatment in situations that call for it, just that you have to check out the facility extremely carefully.
Any *good* facility will know there are bad facilities out there and won't be at all put off at you asking so many questions and wanting the answers in writing.
Any facility that *is* put off by that is likely worrying that you'd have too much proof in a fraud lawsuit if they mistreat your child or don't provide the services you're paying them for.
Buyer Beware.
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I dont know anything about the legal stuff that you are talking about. I was a CCM alumni, if you want to call it that. I was there in 1996. I stayed for nine months. I worked my way through the system and got out. I am still trying to recover from my experience there. The only thing I learned from CCM was how to be a really good liar. I would really like to get in touch with any one who was there the same time as me. I made some close friends durring my stay there. My name is Sarah, it used to be McCue, and I was from Alaska. I was in G Group. I don't even know if this forum is for this but I just was thinking about how horrible this place was and though that I would research it on the net... I am finding a lot of interesting things out. I believe that many girls were abused by staff and other girls durring there stays at CCM. Just thinking back on the seminars and how wierd and twisted they were gives me chills!!!!
Sarah
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I just wanted to check back in with all of you. I was the original author of the "my daughter has been there for 2 months now". My daughter has been there almost 1 year now and is doing great! She has not cut since April of 2004. Her self esteem is inching back up. She is brighter and not depressed any more. We talk to her every other week and also go to visit her. My initial fears were unfounded. My daughter has had to have glasses, dental visits and some other doctors appointments and they have all been handled with great care. I cannot speak highly enough about Cross Creek. I am sorry for anyone that may have had a bad experience, but I just don't understand that about CCM.
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On 2005-01-11 18:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just wanted to check back in with all of you. I was the original author of the "my daughter has been there for 2 months now". My daughter has been there almost 1 year now and is doing great! She has not cut since April of 2004. Her self esteem is inching back up. She is brighter and not depressed any more. We talk to her every other week and also go to visit her. My initial fears were unfounded. My daughter has had to have glasses, dental visits and some other doctors appointments and they have all been handled with great care. I cannot speak highly enough about Cross Creek. I am sorry for anyone that may have had a bad experience, but I just don't understand that about CCM."
I find it hard to believe you are the person who started this thread. You sound like a WWASPie who's trying to make use of the OP's message to spread some more of your bullshit about how wonderful your concentration camps are.
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Oh my goodness! What if it is really her and her daughter is really doing well? Sorry but not ALL of it is bs.
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Just another example of why this board is just a bunch of over reaction.
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Here's something to consider.
We have a lot of anon posts here. For all we know you posted the previous message so you could make the lame suggestion that the survivors and parents who post at Fornits over react.
That just isn't the case. Every message board is going to have its share of different opinions, arguments, and accusations. It is incumbent on parents or others who read, to weed through the riff raff and analyze the rational information provided.
Don't attempt to discredit all the survivors and parents here based on one anon post, which, as I stated, you could've made yourself.
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That's lame. I wouldn't do that. I don't need to set things up. Please. People will think what they want to. For all we know it was you who posted it. At least I have the balls to use my name.
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Perrigaud, the anon above you was responding to the anon who made the "over reaction" comment, not to you.
WWASPies lie. That's a well-known fact. I would not put it past a WWASPie to make up some story in order to build up an opportunity to glorify their sick, abusive treatment cult.
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That's a stupid generalization. No, people in general lie. Not just WWASPIES. I personally don't see the point in lying. Besides you people will think what you want to. That's the beauty of America.
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On 2005-01-12 06:43:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"That's a stupid generalization. No, people in general lie. Not just WWASPIES. I personally don't see the point in lying. Besides you people will think what you want to. That's the beauty of America. "
Of course, you're right.
But there's another likely explanation. What if this parent (who didn't start the thread, but who is indeed posting from the same account as the one who first gave a progress report on her daughter) is not lying, but is also not telling the truth?
What I mean by that is that everything she says is true to the best of her knowledge. The kid does seem more cheerful, more confident and hasn't cut herself in months. None of these are bad things. However, I never saw anyone on the higher phases of any of these programs project anything but a glowing, cheerul, entheusiastic image of themselves and the program (except for one or two just before they got started over)
Regardless of that seemiong 100% (of graduates) success rate, many graduates have serious difficulty after graduation. Very often, the original problems reemerge along w/ new issues.
Sometimes not. Some people really do just shrug it off and go on. My point is that this mother can't possibly know how this kid is feeling and thinking. The kid is hardly in a position to even take time to reflect, let alone be candid about it.
Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous
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I agree completely. It's an evironment that is so intoxicating. It's easy to get caught up in the positivity and growing. However, once out of the program they don't have the same system. Because of that a lot of kids that haven't picked up the skills will fail. I've seen a lot of my peers fall flat on their face. I didn't due to the fact that I knew what I was up for. I knew I wasn't going to be monitered and graded. CCM was safe and I knew it. If I made a mistake the worst case scenario was dropping levels and starting over. I still had a roof over my head, food, water, and people to help me pick myself up. If those kids don't prepare for the real world they are doomed. We were told that the program was easy. Some of us didn't really take into account the differences. So yes, the daughter may be doing well for now. Only time will tell if she really is doing well.
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hi everyone,
I got a awkward question, maybe it isnt permissible, but I see the importance of that:
How do the kids in WWASP treatment handle their sexuality? Is there any privacy left for this? (I can't imagine they tolerate this in public.)
Sorry if you think that question better not to mention.
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As I understand it, they are punished for masterbating.
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Ok, um... you realize what you just said?
"It's an evironment that is so intoxicating. It's easy to get caught up in the positivity and growing. However, once out of the program they don't have the same system. Because of that a lot of kids that haven't picked up the skills will fail. I've seen a lot of my peers fall flat on their face. I didn't due to the fact that I knew what I was up for. I knew I wasn't going to be monitered and graded. CCM was safe and I knew it. If I made a mistake the worst case scenario was dropping levels and starting over."
That really implies a lot of the things we're here and not liking, Perrigaud.
"Intoxicating environment" and "caught up in the positivity and growing" implies a lot about what we've heard about the seminars. Not the least of which is the manipulation (and brainwashing) that its accused of.
And.. busted back levels to 'start over' for not being perfectly compliant is unrealistic and coersive.
Finally that whole falling on their face in the real world becuase the program's unvierse is so differnet (if you fall for it instead of playing along to get out) is another problem.
All of this has still not been addressed! Why do you have to practically fall for the program like a religion for it to work? I dont need to believe in jack to go to a dentist.
For myself, I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
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On 2005-01-13 10:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"hi everyone,
I got a awkward question, maybe it isnt permissible, but I see the importance of that:
How do the kids in WWASP treatment handle their sexuality? Is there any privacy left for this? (I can't imagine they tolerate this in public.)
Sorry if you think that question better not to mention.
"
As far as I know, youre forced to make confessions about it because *EVERYONE* has apparently done something or entertained inappropriate fantasies. IF you dont have any, you make them up.
The sexes are apparently segregated on some level, and its not a good idea to even look at the other sex.
And like the anon said, I've heard from a mom of a child who used to be in wwasps who found out that her child was punished for masturbating in private but being caught. That was when she pulled him out, if I remember correctly.
Basically in WWASPS its an exploited vulnerability and something thats not allowed to properly grow and develop, from what I've heard. The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn
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According to program apologists, it's not allowed, and punished.
You can read their direct comments in this thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=10&Sort= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=4154&forum=9&start=10&Sort=)
Here's a story about how 'Displays of Public Affection' are dealth with. DPA being a hug or consoling someone who was sad not to go home during a holiday.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =220#31994 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3865&forum=9&start=220#31994)
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Niles,
Here we go again. Ok, if you go to a concert it's easy to get caught up in the ambiance. People collectively can set a mood that is influential. If I attack a girl in the program I could get lowered levels and lose privelages. In the real world I could go to court and get sued for assault. I could even maybe go to jail. I didn't say needing to be "perfectly compliant". Please the program knows people have bad days, weeks, months etc. Stop hyping it up!
"Caught up in the positivity and growing" I knew you would have something to say about that. But, ready for this? That's what goes on whether it's by everyone of not. I'm just saying that that is what the ambiance is. Like you didn't know that. Here's some more: We worked on ourselves to better our lives. More? Ok! I came out a better person. You ok? Of course not. Keep ranting. I feel for those cases of abuse and wish there were some way to help them.
Make no mistake. I am going off of my own experience and will not discredit other's be it negative or positive.
if you listened to what I was actually conveying you would understand that I was referring to the ambiance. This is common knowledge to even the most ignorant person (regarding the ignorance of what goes on in the program). Everyone knows that it's supposed to be a positive environment. So, go ahead and get in a tizzy about it if you wish. But don't dramatize what I say.
And that's so true for why people who graduate fall on their face. Other reasons would be that they were just going along until they got out. It was all a facade.
Example: It's easy to get caught up in the ambiance when at church. It's easy to start saying things like: Yeah I'm going to live a pure life and so on. However, when not in church how easy is it to follow that path of life? [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-14 01:58 ]
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Perrigaud, no offence, but considering I still really dont know how you got better and there still is a lot of mystery about day to day operations of the program and how semianrs work (the details are from those who DONT like it, remember that 30+ page thread called how about some damn answers?) excuse my skepticism.
I still dont know anything more than a general vague sense of you having 'gotten better'!
This isnt an attack on *YOU* just the ridiculous lack of information. Sheesh. The subway I go to is accredited and has to put on the wall their sanitation grade - which happens to be 101% - and say that I accused said subway of being unsanitary - they'd go check!!!
Plus, I can more or less see what goes on in a restaurant.
The programs are too secretive and too vague. They seek to retain the kid from their parents too much (albeit thats a good way to get tuition $$$, its UNETHICAL) and they take people who prolly dont need it.
The fatal pedagogical error is to throw answers, like stones, at the heads of those who have not yet asked the questions.
Paul Tillich
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All you got to do is ask me questions. Go ahead ask away. I'll answer. How I got better? I'll write an extensive report on me when I can.
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perri,
when were you in the program? what years? did you "graduate" the program or were you pulled? if you went back to another school, was it private or public? did your credits transfer? does anyone know of anyone who has only been out of the program a short period of time? were the seminars as difficult when u were there? did they make you tell the deepest secret in front of the whole group? was this information used against you? did you see anyone who was verbally abused while there or at the seminars? wow! that's a lot, sorry, but you said ask!
thanks for your help!
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On 2005-01-13 01:19:00, Perrigaud wrote:
It's easy to get caught up in the positivity and growing. However, once out of the program they don't have the same system. Because of that a lot of kids that haven't picked up the skills will fail. I've seen a lot of my peers fall flat on their face.
Well... I think there's also a lot about the Program that's decidely not positive or conducive to real growth. But I understand completely what you're saying about getting caught up in it all. We could discuss that just about forever and probably never come to an agreement. I think it'll just take you some time to sort it out. Maybe not. Maybe I just missed the point and will never get it as OWC and others insist. But, in all honesty, I think you'll realize at some point that a lot of kids graduate ill-equipped for the real world because the Program is not designed to do that. It's not an oversight, it's intentional.
But, be that as it may, I have a much simpler question for you. Based on people you know, how many program graduates succeed after the Program?
Ok, I guess that's not such a simple question because it depends so much on how you define success. But lets say, for the sake of argument, success means doing better than marginal at work, school and getting along w/ parents. Avoiding drug problems and legal problems. Just the typical, everytown American definition of "not a failure".
When parents ask for references from Teenhelp or from an edcon, they're given a list of people to contact who all seem to believe that the Program has worked a miracle and that they (or their son or daughter) has made a stunning turn-around. What's more, they all seem to believe, sincerely, that this is the usual result.
What's your take? Estimate how many kids you met in the program, how many graduated, how many didn't, how many you know about and, of those you know, how many are at least moderately successful afterward.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
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I was getting ready to have jaw surgery a few years back. The doctor gave me the names of three patients who had wonderful results AND the names of two who did not. I thought that was one of the best things he could have done. Why is it that these places can't (won't) do the same?? My doctor was obvioulsy confident enough in his skills and respectful enough of me to know that no one has THE answer. He knew this was an important decision and he wanted me to have ALL the information before making up my mind. He encouraged me to get a second opinion, to talk to the people for whom the surgery was unsuccessfull. If these programs have nothing to hide, then why not have an open policy???
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I am a graduate. I graduated from Browning Academy and went on to do the college program and had no troubles. All of the people I kept in contact have no grudge against the program. Only one person I know out of all my program friends were against it. 5 of them did not graduate. 6 did. 2 were pulled. 4 are from Casa.
Success-wise. Well Out of the 11 2 are not doing well.
I entered the program in the end of 99 and graduated in 2001. It was about 22 months.
Yes the seminars were challenging. At that point we were used to discolsing our secrets, fears, issues and such. My fears and issues were challenged but not held against me.
About 75% of the kids I know of (including those I don't communicate with) are doing well. That 25% are in jail, doing drugs, or just up to the same stuff if not worse. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-15 15:21 ]
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On 2005-01-15 15:15:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I am a graduate. I graduated from Browning Academy
Browning Academy does not physically exist. Since this is the first time you've mentioned it (you always say you graduated from CCM), this is another lead in that direction.
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"Yes the seminars were challenging. At that point we were used to discolsing our secrets, fears, issues and such. My fears and issues were challenged but not held against me."
Bullshit.
First... "At that point we were used to discolsing our secrets, fears, issues and such."
Thats complete, total, 100%, unadulterated, stinky bullshit. Its unnecessary unethical and potentially damaging. You seem to have a strong constitution but doing well DESPITE something isnt exactly a good thing for the program you were put into. Forced disclosure is only necessary for interrogation or to break down and bring about vulnerability and regression.
Maybe when you can disconnect from it and look from it from a 3rd person POV, or talk to a unbiased psychologist you'd understand it. But considering how people come out of that kind of seminar, you're not going to be convinced otherwise until it wears off and you can think freely of it.
Dont tell me I dont know what I'm talking about, I know two friends fucked from a kairos seminar. Yeah, I shouldnt be yelling at you, but I'm pissed off. I'm not chewing you out I'm CHALLENGING YOU :grin:
Which brinsg me to this turd: "My fears and issues were challenged but not held against me."
What a polite, sugarcoated PC way of saying they told you you were wrong and told you how to think otherwise! Challenged but not held against you. Hah! Thats just as amusing as the pentagon saying they dont use napalm anymore but yet use another sort of fuel-air incendeary ordinance.
Saying thats not "Napalm" is like saying "Jelly" is not "Jam".
And please, dont feed me a line about perceptions or the 'end result'. Youre a case where you have a strong will and came out of it. But torment and making strong willed people survive is not something that should be celebrated or even tolerated. Its needless and more about your fortitude than any kind of help. All your peers falling on their faces should speak for itself.When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
--
Anonymous . . . for obvious reasons
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8th step states that Browning doesn't physically exist.
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/the8 ... /id69.html (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/the8thstep2/id69.html)
But, they certainly appear to:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2 ... academy%22 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22browning+academy%22)
Explain.
http://www.teenpaths.org/financial.htm (http://www.teenpaths.org/financial.htm)
Notes on applying for your loan:
Part of the application will ask what school will be paid. In the field "School to be Paid", please be sure to list "Browning Academy" (Code 003948kn) City: St. George State: UT. The Browning Academy choice is applicable to any school in our program. The average expense of completing one of our programs is $45,000 so you may want to utilize that amount when they ask for an amount requested. This covers an average length of stay equal to 15 months in the program. Just as an example, assuming interest rates as of May 2004 and a payback over 20 years; your monthly payment would be $299.48 (Remember, this estimate can change as interest rates change or if you choose a shorter payback term. However, this particular estimate is based on an annual percentage rate of 5.20%). Amount necessary can be more or less depending on which school you finally decide to send you child to.
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On 2005-01-15 15:15:00, Perrigaud wrote:
Only one person I know out of all my program friends were against it. 5 of them did not graduate. 6 did. 2 were pulled. 4 are from Casa.
Success-wise. Well Out of the 11 2 are not doing well.
Ok, I'm not asking how they all feel about the program. Just how they're faring at life. And I know it's only been a couple of years for you. But out of the 11 people you're in touch w/ only 6 are graduates and all but 2 are doing well enough. So graduating doesn't really seem to be an issue then?
About 75% of the kids I know of (including those I don't communicate with) are doing well.
How do you come by info about the ones you don't communicate with? Here's why I ask. I remember when our family was very much involved w/ The Seed. And I remember believing, unquestioningly, the 99% success rate story. It seemed obvious and unquestionable! We'd see oldtimers (graduates) who came to an open meeting once in awhile and talk about their latest accomplishments or parents would drop in and do the same. It seemed like almost everyone we'd ever seen on front row was now doing well out there.
Under normal circumstances, this would be good enough for a decent assessment. But there's one caveate; no talking behind backs! When someone was deemed not doing well and they didn't land up on front row (started over), they were never spoken to or of again. And I've heard the same thing from former WWASP families. Not only the kid, but the parents are shunned if they're not in compliance.
This sounds very much the same, Perrigaud. You must have seen at least dozens of kids go through your program while you were there. And you only speak w/ a dozen of them? What do you know about the rest?
Never let your sense of
morals get in the way of
doing what's right
--Isaac Asimov
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Niles,
Oh my god you will never give it a rest will you? Go ahead and yell at me. I brought up my issues knowing I needed help with them. EVERYONE has got issues. I obviously wasn't handling them well. In the end it personally helped me. No I will never realize what was happening to me. Why? Because I know what happened. After 3.5 years it hasn't worn off 'cause there's nothing to wear off. Please they didn't do hypmotism on us. But whatever. I do know that it helped me get a shitload off of my chest. Call it bullshit. I'm not here to change your mind.
Seriously I can't say anything without you twisting the words up. No one told me I was wrong for thinking the way I did. Please. My issues were not ones to take lightly. I needed them off of my chest and took the oppurtunity to start working on relieving the pain I had from them.
And the whole bit of us being used to disclosing our fears, issues and such is not bullshit. How the hell would you know? Were you there? No! So stop. That is the truth. We were used to being honest. Was it bad? You think so. I don't. In the end I found out that there were others there who had a one time felt the way I did. That gave me comfort. Also, I have no problem speaking my mind nowadays. I do so so I don't revert to being the same person I once was. If a person is doing something I don't appreciate to me I will speak up.
Timoclea,
Well, just because I don't communicate with someone on a daily basis doesn't mean I haven't had any contact with them. I ran across a couple of the kids that weren't on the up and up. Others I heard about from my friends.
It's been 3.5 years since I've been out. When I say in touch I'm talking about the ones I regularly talk to and visit. The rest I don't. When graduating we are not to exchange residing information. The 5 that didn't graduated: 2 chose there exit plan (they turned 18). 1 Her family ran out of money and couldn't keep her there. 2 Were pulled.
[ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-18 03:21 ]
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Perri,
You said:
When graduating we are not to exchange residing information.
Why do you think they have that policy? It's pretty standard for the industry, btw.
Here you've spent an average of 2 years with a group of peers, doing all the 'emotional growth' work, divulging your deepest secrets and pain, apparently building close relationships, and you're not allowed to get their contact information when you leave. That has never made sense to me.
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They don't encourage getting together for about a year or so. This is to prevent us from bringing each other down. They want us to succeed and stand on our own. Once we are stable we are ok to meet up with each other. They say we shouldn't but most do anyway. That was the answer I got when I asked why.
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FYI, a parent can speak with their child or see their child at anytime they want. They probably choose not to because they don't want to put up with the manipulation, dealing, threats, whatever the child would put out when they did.
I actually was a staff when Perrigaud was there. She was nothing but real, so I have no doubt that it worked for her. Let me guess, you didn't graduate were never a student or slid your way through?
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On 2005-01-18 13:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
Let me guess, you didn't graduate were never a student or slid your way through?"
There it is again. All critics of the program are just disgruntled kids who didn't really "work" the program. :roll: :roll: Hope you just watched Montel. They were talking about how that is exactly how these places get away with the abuse they dish out. They're all just manipulating liars. :roll: Get a new line. That one's getting pretty thin.
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On 2005-01-18 13:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"FYI, a parent can speak with their child or see their child at anytime they want.
Bullshit. A parent can only talk to their child when the child reaches level 3, and the conversation must be monitored by the staff. A parent may only come to visit when a child reaches level 4 and the parent completes the parents' seminar.
Any attempt on the parents' part to do otherwise leads to intense manipulation and intidation from WWASP, because the parents dared breaking WWASP's holy rules, and disturb WWASP's attempt to establish itself as the main authority in the family.
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Torment? How were you tormented Nihilanthic? By not being able to watch TV, by not having access to drugs, by having to do some chores, by having some structure in your life, by having therapy? Sounds like torment to me. Why are you so ticked about the program?
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On 2005-01-18 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
" by having therapy?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Therapy. You're funny!!! :lol: :lol:
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ok, so let's be honest. what are you? Did you graduate? Are you a parent? Yes I watched Montel. Were you one of the kids on there?
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On 2005-01-18 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Torment? How were you tormented Nihilanthic? By not being able to watch TV, by not having access to drugs, by having to do some chores, by having some structure in your life, by having therapy? Sounds like torment to me. Why are you so ticked about the program? "
I can't speak for Niles, but I'm guessing he's ticked off for the same reason I am: Because the program is abusive, dangerous, and damaging.
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On 2005-01-18 13:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ok, so let's be honest. what are you? Did you graduate? Are you a parent? Yes I watched Montel. Were you one of the kids on there?"
No, I wasn't on the show. I was in an abusive rehab as a teen. I now have two teenagers (who have never been to a program). I can speak to BOTH sides.
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Have you read the enrollment? You are so quick to say things you really don't know the facts on. Parents do not sign over there rights and yes indeed can see or speak w/ there child at anytime. with out any incentives what would make a child want to move? You know what before I do on further, I don't have time to waste with your comments that has no substance behind it besides negativism.
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ok, I can back off a bit, because what you had to go through is not right. but that does not happen at these schools, and if you haven't been through them, where are you getting your incorrect info and why so negative toward them?
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On 2005-01-18 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
You know what before I do on further, I don't have time to waste with your comments that has no substance behind it besides negativism."
No, they're not negative. They're very positive about parents taking responsibility for their own kids instead of shipping them off to strangers to be re-programmed into good little Stepfor kids so they'll be a good reflection on their parents.
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how so?
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Ok, they're negative in regards to sending kids off to programs, but that in itself is positive, I believe. Telling parents what really goes on in these places is positive. Being a voice for the kids that are in there now and have no voice is positive.
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On 2005-01-18 04:52:00, Perrigaud wrote:
Once we are stable we are ok to meet up with each other. They say we shouldn't but most do anyway.
Why do they say you shouldn't even after the specified time?
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Anyone seen this? I hadn't before.
http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/emancip ... tories.htm (http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/emancipation/links-to-stories.htm)
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On 2005-01-18 15:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-01-18 04:52:00, Perrigaud wrote:
Once we are stable we are ok to meet up with each other. They say we shouldn't but most do anyway.
Why do they say you shouldn't even after the specified time?"
I take that to mean that after the specified time then they do get the ok to meet up. But think about this. The other kids have to be a year out as well. How many kids are considered to be "worthy cohorts" after a year? What if you want to hook up w/ somebody who's considered out of compliance?
Any Irishman who doubts the reality of selective enforcement ought to take just a moment to comtemplate the etymology of the term "paddy waggon".
--Antigen
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On 2005-01-18 15:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anyone seen this? I hadn't before.
http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/emancip ... tories.htm (http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/emancipation/links-to-stories.htm)"
Interesting site! Did you wander around much?Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
George Washington
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On 2005-01-18 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Have you read the enrollment? You are so quick to say things you really don't know the facts on. Parents do not sign over there rights and yes indeed can see or speak w/ there child at anytime.
As an earlier Anonymous said, bullshit. Double bullshit! Our experience was EXACTLY as described earlier. NO contact without "points" for levels, seminars, merit points. THEN contact is monitored, child has behavior threats issued before contact. Any attempts to phone directly to talk with a child are NOT ALLOWED until a certain level is achieved, and in our case, our child never caved enough to toe the Program line and achieve that level. Hence, NO contact was made beyond stilted, censored emails for the entire 10 months of incarceration. When The Program finally relented and "allowed" contact [how can a parent let a boarding school tell them they MAY NOT talk to their child for nearly a year?], it was not a fun time. It was within a seminar setting, with each "side" sitting facing each other and discussing how much the child had/will change to fit back into the family and/or meet Program demands.
If you insist upon seeing your child "before time"?.... Some very dear friends were increasingly uneasy with their son's situation in The Program, felt they really did not know what was going on, and finally demanded to see him personally and talk about it. The Program's response, when they simply showed up in the facility lobby? After repeated and adamant refusals to allow seeing their son [see, "how can a school do that?", above], they were told that visiting their child before he had achieved certain parameters (4½ months without contact, in this case) would void their "warranty". Nowhere in any contract or enrollment agreement was this stipulated. The Program made up this rule as it went along. The parents, threatened with a loss of warranty, a loss of a whole lot of prepaid money, and defying a bullying staff, finally agreed to simply watch him through a one-way mirror as he was brougt into the common area...an area where he had never before been allowed. Through tears, the parents left, and have ALWAYS regretted allowing The Program to override their common sense and gut feelings. They returned to pull their son just days later, and discovered horrors of WWASPS they child had lived through beyond their wildest imagination.
I am simply amazed at the outright lying from a self-admitted staffer at WWASPS, because every Program facility has exactly the same "not till they're ready" policy for visitation. NO EXCEPTIONS. How can some jerk say parents can visit whenever? It simply is not true, and parents need to know that going in.
Who could say such a bald-faced lie?
...with out any incentives what would make a child want to move? You know what before I do on further, I don't have time to waste with your comments that has no substance behind it besides negativism."
Perhaps the same jerk who has more errors in one paragraph of written expression than I can count on all my fingers and all my toes. Parents, this is a staffer who you trust to guard, teach, and mentor your child? And you were worried enough about the quality of friends and cohorts at home that you sent your kid off to live with this Creton? WWASPS is simply not to be believed, and makes an art form out of lying that will come full circle someday when their Mormon god tallies the score.
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Explain the many, many programs that follow the WWASPS model? Do the ones that PURE or "real" educational consultants refer to follow the same model?? Do they do it because it doesn't work and they want to set themselves up for failure? No one said it works 100% of the time, but be sure that it works way more often than it doesn't, but ultimately it's up to each individual to use what they've learned or they're back to square one or worse.
Now...on the visitation - what's all this ranting about zero contact? I personally saw my son long before he was at Level 3. It was therapist recommended at Cross Creek. It IS recommended that the kid earn it, because they damn sure didn't care about contact with their parents at home. They avoided it at all costs most of the time. It is NOT forbidden.
Cut the crap on censored letters. No one wants to hear the facts, and it's been said many times, letters are NOT censored!
What is the agenda of some of you to keep saying these things over and over again? Sure, feed anyone that happens on this site the cult, brainwashing, abuse, no education crap. Maybe they won't choose WWASPS, and that's okay,but it will scare the crap out of THEM to not get the help their family needs through any program when nothing they've done is helping. Is that okay?
It's NOT wrong to ask for effective intervention - that's my experience and opinion.
B etsy
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hrm...
"Now...on the visitation - what's all this ranting about zero contact? I personally saw my son long before he was at Level 3. It was therapist recommended at Cross Creek. It IS recommended that the kid earn it, because they damn sure didn't care about contact with their parents at home. They avoided it at all costs most of the time. It is NOT forbidden. "
Earning access to the outside world, that is isolation until you conform... lesse... if you had read anything about brainwashing youd know thats a common tactic used. Yeah, what a good way to make them 'love you' by forcing conformity or years trapped in a program.
And, what A LOVELY selfrightous attitude about how they should EARN seeing you back. You're their damned parent! You've got some serious issues if you think its okay to have your kid locked up and cut off from EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in the world, even legal representation, and have to EARN the right to see you again!
Also, about censored letters... Funny how you couldnt have just... SCANNED A UNCENSORED ONE? Wow thats so hard.
Our LEGITIMATE complaints about the abuse, secrecy, questionable methods, and political connections are still unanswered.
Theres no reform, regulation, or oversight, even still. These people wouldn't STILL say this stuff YEARS afterwards if it was untrue! Prisoners get visits, oversight, often times cameras up on the walls, lawyers, and civil rights. These kids do not.
Come on ANON, theres still no info about any actual therapy at all, just conditions requiring obedience. Everyone defers to seminars for any sort of 'therapy' which consist of nothing more than warmed over sensitivity training and psychological mindgames.
We do agree on one thing, though. It's NOT wrong to ask for effective intervention - but theres a difference between 'ask', and kidnapping and captivity for months to years in secretive programs isolated from everyone accused of brainwashing and abuse to force obedience.
Talk to antigen about how to help and get through to people without hiring kidnappers and having people terrify and soften up your kid and put them in seminars and 'restrain' them, and make them miss out on normal socialization and education opportunties for months or years of their life.
The other sad thing is a lot of the time, they're just GROWING UP. I've said it before and I'll say it again - if I went to a program for a cold, and I got out after my cold went away, the program would claim they fixed it. Coallation is not causation. Acting good enough for you so they dont have to suffer again isnot being fixed nor does it indicate a real problem in the first place!
Give us "sunshine"(oversight, reform, regulation, transparency and access to ombudsmen and lawyers. and advocatsy groups) and only send those who ACTUALLY need it to a lockup, and not those who dont, and PROVE that the methods work, and we'll shut up.
Using kidnapping, captivity, coersion and domination as a cookie cutter treatment for anything for profit, and we're gonna keep bitching at you, ANON. You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough.
--Aldous Huxley, author
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That's the thing you all don't understand. No one is perfect. I know I make mistakes. The program is not a fix it all. They never told me I had to be perfect. I wasn't abused only helped. If you all want to see it as abuse then fine. In the end that "abuse" was another source that helped me find myself. Now, I'm sure this will set a lot of you off on a tangent of how it's all brainwashing bullshit. Go right ahead. I was never one to listen to what other's had to say if I truly didn't believe in that way myself. :razz: :razz: :razz:
Why not communication after the specified time? The given time frame is a mere guidline. It is not an order sent from the head of the "brainwashing" WWASP. If I had decided to keep in contact the very day I graduated I could do so. But it was my discretion. Now, as for the ones that weren't doing well; I kept in contact with a couple. I don't fear that they'll bring me down with them. They are struggling. That sucks for them. But for the most part I will not put myself around people I don't respect or value. I don't want to come off as a bitch but I have no time for BS. So why would I want to be around them? I kept in contact with girls in my same state since the day we graduated. I didn't care about the whole crabs in a barrel theory.
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The program is not a fix it all.
The program presents itself as a fix it all. It doesn't matter what the kid's problem is-- whether it's failing grades, drug use, psychological disorders, or not getting along with a new step-parent-- WWASP presents itself as the perfect solution to any problem.
They never told me I had to be perfect. I wasn't abused only helped. If you all want to see it as abuse then fine. In the end that "abuse" was another source that helped me find myself.
This sound so sad and pathetic. They did a good job on you, Perrigaud.
Now, I'm sure this will set a lot of you off on a tangent of how it's all brainwashing bullshit. Go right ahead. I was never one to listen to what other's had to say if I truly didn't believe in that way myself. :razz: :razz: :razz:
Same goes for plenty of other people. But people will listen-- or, to put it more accurately, will be forced to listen-- when they are pressured and stressed out and worked into a frenzy and have their own sense of judgement and perception of reality constantly challenged, which is what happens 24/7 in WWASP. You are proving this time and time again in your posts. To use Jay Kay's words, the program conssits of "re-wiring" of the child's brain so that the child will become compliant with WWASP and will become convinced that they were saved by the Holy Program.
And, yes, that is considered psychological abuse. And that is what the program offers. The program is dangerous, abusive, and harmful, and must be shut down.
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blah blah blah. Same stuff I keep hearing. Rewiring. Wow, you must really be weak. Nevermind ANONYMOUS. You won't understand. Brainwashed? Ok, if that's what you want to call it. Stop with the whole black or white attitude. You are just as bad as the program. I didn't say it was a fix it all for me. Dear god are you dense. It helped me. Sorry it ruined others, sorry you're so close minded and hellbent on it being all about brainwashing. Thanks but I am not as weak as you and I do have my own mind. I'm so sick of you people saying it's all brainwash and it's evil. Sure, it helped me, I'm happy, and no it's not the only thing. Nevermind.
PS Anonymous: Wait a be predictable you dense sad excuse for an anti-advocate. Sad and pathetic? Maybe if I was one of those graduates who didn't do well. I'm a better person thanks to the program. Here's the tricky part NOT ENTIRELY TO THE PROGRAM (DO I THANK FOR MY SUCCESS) BUT THANKS FOR CONTRIBUTING. Here's some more for you to rant about: You're just upset I'm not one that encountered abuse and don't think like you at all. Sorry. Chew on that and go ahead and write about how brainwashed I am. Shut up. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-19 03:30 ][ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-19 03:36 ]
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Hey Betsy,
Aren't you the one who came to Fornits during the heated WWASP debate last year, and deceived readers about who you were and your intention?
Presenting yourself as a neutral, objective party. And after a week had decided that W wasn't the Evil Empire it was presented to be?
How credible is your opinion? How many free months of tuition have you received for referals?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2739&forum=9&start=10)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2737&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2737&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2730&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2730&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... =9&start=0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=2821&forum=9&start=0)
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"blah blah blah. Same stuff I keep hearing. Rewiring. Wow, you must really be weak. Nevermind ANONYMOUS. You won't understand.
Oh, I undersand alright. I've read enough testimonies and I've talked to people who's been there but who, unlike you, managed to resist the rewiring. The program is abusive and dangerous, and that's a documented fact.
Brainwashed? Ok, if that's what you want to call it. Stop with the whole black or white attitude.
No black and white attitude here. When I first heard about the program, I listened to people like you, who thought highly of the program and talked about how it helped them. Then I started asking questions, and doing research. I'm sorry, Perrigaud, but the facts say otherwise.
You are just as bad as the program.
Oh, really?
I don't abuse children. I don't make money out of manipulating vulnerable parents and crushing the minds and spirits of children.
So, no, I'm not "as bad as the program".
I didn't say it was a fix it all for me. Dear god are you dense. It helped me. Sorry it ruined others, sorry you're so close minded and hellbent on it being all about brainwashing.
Close minded? no, hon, that would be you. Just look how extremely hostile you because when someone dares to express an opinion different from your own.
This is one of the first things that striked me as odd when I first talked to WWASPies like you: your complete inability to accept that people disagree with you.
Thanks but I am not as weak as you and I do have my own mind.
It doesn't sound like it.
I'm so sick of you people saying it's all brainwash and it's evil.
Yeah, facing the facts can be tough, eh?
PS Anonymous: Wait a be predictable you dense sad excuse for an anti-advocate.
A little tip, Perrigaud: this is not a seminar or a group session. So you can lay off the swearing and the personal attacks. I understand that that is what you're used to, after being at Casa and Cross Creek for so long, but this is the real world, and normal people don't talk like that.
Sad and pathetic? Maybe if I was one of those graduates who didn't do well. I'm a better person thanks to the program.
Yeah, you keep telling yourself that...
Here's the tricky part NOT ENTIRELY TO THE PROGRAM (DO I THANK FOR MY SUCCESS) BUT THANKS FOR CONTRIBUTING.
Well, at least you give youself some credit. That's good.
Here's some more for you to rant about: You're just upset I'm not one that encountered abuse and don't think like you at all.
I believe you've encountered abuse. The fact that you don't consider it abuse right now doesn't mean it isn't abuse.
I'm not agry because you think differently from me. I'm angry because I've been reading your posts for quite some time now, and you sound like a fairly intelligent person. And yet you spew program ideology almost non-stop. And, yes, it makes me angry to see another young person under the influence of the WWASP coercive persuasion techniques.
Sorry. Chew on that and go ahead and write about how brainwashed I am. Shut up.
Yeah, you'd like that, wouldn't you? You'd like me to shut up and you'd ISAC to shut up and you'd like Ginger to shut up and everybody who dares to criticize your beloeved program to just shut up already.
Sorry, hon. That's not going to happen. The secret is out. More and more people are finding out exactly what kind of program WWASP is. Your dear program's time is running out.
WWASP's going down.
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Yes believe what you want to. And no I actually respect Ginger and Timoclea. I even respect Niles. But you I don't. I see no validity behind what you bring up. Therefore I'll let you run your mouth. You're right I don't need to swear or even speak my mind about you. I haven't been abused. I've been helped. I'll leave it at that. Open, yes I am. If you had really been reading all of my posts as you claim to have been you'd have seen that. I don't respect ASSumptions. Why do you think that I am here. I debate, listen, form opinions, and allow for what I see fit and block out what I don't. Facts? No dear. The facts are that it helped me, that it is corrupt, that it does need improvement, that it isn't 100% a fix it all, that I and other non-program people do talk like that, and I am a better person. But unless you read my past you are going off of assumptions. Go right ahead. You're the one saying it was all brainwash and abuse and not one ounce of it was helpful. Sure. Look at me and my results. There's proof that it isn't all bad. I'll never consider it abuse. I gladly embrace anyone to express their opinions. I'll listen and have rebuttals as I see fit. Again, I do respect other's opinions along with validation. My dear program? Please, it's not mine. It's just a helping stone. Not a religion.
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Deborah - Maybe I should have been clear. I'm a Cross Creek supporter. Deceive, no. I wasn't as familiar with the other schools in the WWASPS family. Just Feeling things out...
I stopped posting with my name when someone decided it would be fun to use my name on immature posts.
As for the tuition - honestly - one - Despite the popular belief that we all go out and preach the program - it was a friend who was in the same place I was. I didn't talk her into anything, she decided for herself.
B
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I'm a Cross Creek supporter. Deceive. no...
Yeh.
11 Aug 03
I can't judge WWASPS, but from what I'm learning here, it requires a lot more than believing what's on the surface. This could be interesting...bring it on!
"I've been accused of being a WWASP supporter. I just like to hear real stories from real people and tell it like I see it."
"Deborah - read anything into it that fits. I was neutral. I'm still not a WWASPS supporter, but I see their credibility and integrity far exceeds anything I'm reading on this forum. My neutrality has shifted."
"In answer to your inquiry about the satisfaction rate - what does that have to do with me? I don't think unless I'm a parent, graduate, employee or PR that information would be available to me."
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Betsy, I have avoided responding to you because you are so obviously drunk on the Kool Aid; but I am going to go ahead and jump in here.
Spots is correct on the visitation. It is not allowed on the lower levels - and it matters not how long the kid is on the lower levels. When I was on the BBS it was not uncommon for a parent to lament their son or daughter had been on level one or two a year - and when will they get with it and start working their program so the family can visit? The advice is, don't worry about it, Trust the program (I have been told they have now changed this to trust the process; same thing) when they want to see you they will work the program and until then, a visit will just set them back; start them manipulating. If a parent gets uneasy with this and insist on a visit - they are told to pull. Its get with the program or get out. You trust the program or you leave the program. There is no in between. Lots of program parents have gone a year and not laid eyes on their kid. Not even had a phone call. Because the kid isn't working their program and has remained on a lower level. This is not unusual. If you say different, you are a liar.
As for the mail being censored - you might be truly ignorant of this - but the fact is, it is censored. There are plenty of accounts by kids who report not all their mail got through; that they were "consequenced" because of something they wrote; and that staff routinely alters the email. Staff have admitted this. I can personally tell you several important letters written by my son never got through; and his email was routinely screened and on occasion not sent at all. It was an odd thing with the email. . . After I had pulled him, weeks later, I got some email he had written in the program. It had been written long before, and never sent - until then. Had to do with a serious bout of illness, and some shots they gave him. To this day, I don't know if someone goofed and accidentally sent it; or if the family rep decided since he was already gone, maybe I ought to see it after all. But what is beyond doubt: It was held and not sent when written, and I suspect b/c it would have been something they didn't want me asking about. As the whole of the email was about this disturbing episode, it couldn't easily be altered; so they just didn't send it. That much is clear.
So yes Betsy - they do censor and alter the mail.
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Betsy,
YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT! I know for a fact that what Buzzkill is saying is absolutely true!!!! How do I know this? My child is in a wwasp school at this very minute!If she writes negative things, even just saying she's tired of this place and wants to come home, she gets a correction. In case you don't know, that means a loss of apprx. 50 pts. She hasn't written anything too bad, and I know she wants to. She is my child after all. Plus, you just try to go see a child there! No damn way! If you do, you are asked to leave the program because you are not following the "program." Yes, it's still referred to as the "program." We don't get any e-mail from our child. The staff e-mails us brief information, but nothing deep. We were totally misled about this whole program. We were told that we could speak w/ her in the first couple of weeks, that she needed to "settle in." Well, it's been months and months, now, so how do you explain that?????? Parents are forced to go to the seminars, or not allowed visitation. They are also, "black-balled" by the other parents and staff. As for the brainwahing, you are totally full of it there, dearie. I have met many, many staff, parents, and former students who were happy in the program. They are as "brainwashed" as any Stepford could be! I know this because I knew some of these people before they went to the seminars, and they were normal. Afterward, they didn't have an independent thought in their head. You obviously need to up-date your info, or go along back to your little stepford club.
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Perrigaud - thank you for your respect! That means more than youd realize. :grin:
I just have two things to say about the Hannibal Lecter-wannabe Anon and yourself, however.
1. Anon, I know what youre trying to do, but stop it. Doing the same crap as the seminars over a forum isnt gonna work. Its just gonna piss her off or make her feel some other negative emotion. DONT do what the damn seminars did, PLEASE.
2. Perrigaud - You seem to be thriving, in spite of the treatment you got. If anything you just fixed yourself to get out because of unpleasantness, but that means that poking you in the ear with my finger until you got so fed up you acted correctly is about as effective as a program.
I'm not here to put you down - far from it. But I've seen first hand what regressional seminars can and can not do. The few details I have seem to indicate you're just a strong person. Maybe you were able to isolate the BS from reality and fix it yourself when your mind got pried open with Gilcrease's crowbar! But thats your own human will, not something the seminars are known for doing well. You're doing well in spite of it.
As far as the program goes... its just a regime of control. You say you went out to do stuff (after 'earning' it). Thats great. I just dont see any evidence of it. Or of a regulat education for that mater.
I would *LOVE* to see it, though! But, at any rate, WetWillyASPS calls me, I need to go pay off some Utah politicians and make my fortune!I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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Perri, thanks for the kudos. I agree w/ Nil, you're pretty tough. I also believe you when you say you didn't get abused. That's OK. I don't need for you to hate WWASP or anything. I didn't think I had been abused in Straight. I thought I'd ducked it. It took me a very long time and the perspective of being an adult w/ children in my care to understand some of it. I suspect, but don't know (of course), that you'll probably come to some of the same conclusions as time goes on.
I apreciate your being willing to answer our questions. Like any other topic under discussion, it's up to the reader to decide what to make of it.
Here's another. What do you think of the parents who send kids there who either are not fit for the rigors of it or who just don't have any problems serious enough to warrant that kind of program? I don't mean do you like them or not. What I'm asking is what you think makes them tick. Why do they do it? Why do they continue their support of the Program. There's one pretty well known case where, after graduation, the kid blew his brains out right in front of the mother while arguing about sending him back to the Program. That woman still thought the Program had saved her son. How do things like that happen?Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following
pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them
general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong,
gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises
at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But the
tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
Thomas Paine, Common Sense
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I'd just like to urge the mother of the child in the WWASP program to get her out as soon as possible. They may threaten you with hidden charges for leaving early - but they wont be able to enforce it. There's something called breach of contract. If they breach their end then you can breach yours. If they said you can talk to your child in a week and it's been months - then they are not owning up to their end of the bargain.
My suggestion as a professional myself - call CPS in the area of the facility and let them know that they are censoring your child's mail and refusing to allow any parental contact. Demand that they place your child into protective custody as soon as possible. Then you will not have to deal with the people at the facility. You can also request the police to do this.
Do not delay - your child is in danger. If you feel that there's a problem - don't ignor it.
I believe that God gave mothers a special sixth sence when it comes to their chidren - an ability to sense when they are in danger. If you are feeling this is the case - don't delay.
Best wishes.I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I'm a human being first and foremost, and as such I am for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole
--Malcolm X
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On 2005-01-19 09:20:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Betsy, I have avoided responding to you because you are so obviously drunk on the Kool Aid; but I am going to go ahead and jump in here.
Spots is correct on the visitation. It is not allowed on the lower levels - and it matters not how long the kid is on the lower levels. When I was on the BBS it was not uncommon for a parent to lament their son or daughter had been on level one or two a year - and when will they get with it and start working their program so the family can visit? The advice is, don't worry about it, Trust the program (I have been told they have now changed this to trust the process; same thing) when they want to see you they will work the program and until then, a visit will just set them back; start them manipulating. If a parent gets uneasy with this and insist on a visit - they are told to pull. Its get with the program or get out. You trust the program or you leave the program. There is no in between. Lots of program parents have gone a year and not laid eyes on their kid. Not even had a phone call. Because the kid isn't working their program and has remained on a lower level. This is not unusual. If you say different, you are a liar.
As for the mail being censored - you might be truly ignorant of this - but the fact is, it is censored. There are plenty of accounts by kids who report not all their mail got through; that they were "consequenced" because of something they wrote; and that staff routinely alters the email. Staff have admitted this. I can personally tell you several important letters written by my son never got through; and his email was routinely screened and on occasion not sent at all. It was an odd thing with the email. . . After I had pulled him, weeks later, I got some email he had written in the program. It had been written long before, and never sent - until then. Had to do with a serious bout of illness, and some shots they gave him. To this day, I don't know if someone goofed and accidentally sent it; or if the family rep decided since he was already gone, maybe I ought to see it after all. But what is beyond doubt: It was held and not sent when written, and I suspect b/c it would have been something they didn't want me asking about. As the whole of the email was about this disturbing episode, it couldn't easily be altered; so they just didn't send it. That much is clear.
So yes Betsy - they do censor and alter the mail."
It looks like Betsy was talking about Cross Creek. Cross Creek does not censor mail and visitation is recommended by the therapists prior to the level status, on a regular basis.
I've been feeling out this board too, so you wanna make something of that?
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Betsy....any of these ring any bells with you?
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
1. MILIEU CONTROL - Control of the Environment and Communication
The control of human communication is the most basic feature of the
thought reform environment. This is the control of what the individual
sees, hears, reads, writes, experiences and expresses. It goes even
further than that, and controls the individuals communication with
himself - his own thoughts.
4. CULT OF CONFESSION - Reporting to leadership
This is closely related to the demand for purity. Confession is
carried beyond the ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions
to the point of becoming a cult in itself. In totalist hands,
confession becomes a means of exploiting, rather than offering solace
for these vulnerabilities.
Totalist confession is an act of self-surrender, the expression of
the merging of the individual and environment. There is a dissolution of
self, talents and money. Conformity.
The cult of confession has effects quite the reverse of its ideal
of total exposure; rather than eliminating personal secrets, it
increases and intensifies them.
The individual becomes caught up in continuous conflict over which
secrets to preserve and which to surrender, over ways to reveal lesser
secrets can be revealed and ways to protect more important ones.
The cult of confession makes it virtually impossible to attain
reasonable balance between worth and humility.
6. LOADING THE LANGUAGE - Thought terminating cliches
Everything is compressed into brief, highly reductive,
definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorised and easily expressed.
There are "good" terms which represents the groups ideology and
"evil" terms to represent everything outside which is to be rejected.
Totalist language is intensely divisive, all-encompassing jargon,
unmercifully judging. To those outside the group this language is
tedious - the language of non-thought.
This effectively isolates members from outside world. The only
people who understand you are other members. Other members can tell if
you are really one of them by how you talk.
This narrowness of the language is constricting. The individual is
linguistically deprived because language is central to the human
experience and his capacities for thinking and feeling are immensely
restricted.
While initially this loaded language can give a sense of security
to the new believer, an uneasiness develops over time. This uneasiness
may result in a withdrawal into the system and he preaches even harder
to hide his problem and demonstrate his loyalty. It may also produce
an inner division and the individual will publicly give the right
performance while privately have his own thoughts.
Either way, his imagination becomes increasingly disassociated from
his actual life experiences and may even tend to atrophy from disuse.
8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE - Who is worthy to live
They have the right to decide who is worthy of life and who isn't.
They also decide which history books are accurate and which are not.
Those in the organisation are worthy of life; those outside worthy
of death. The outsiders can be permitted to live if they change and
become an insider. Members live in fear of being pronounced "dead".
They have a fear of annihilation or extinction. The emotional conflict
is one of "being vs nothingness".
Existence comes to depend upon creed (I believe, therefore I am),
upon mission (I obey, therefore I am) and beyond these, upon a sense of
total merger with the organisation. Should he stray from the "truth"
his right to exist may be withdrawn and he is pronounced "dead".
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Antigen,
Well I really am highly against sending the kids that aren't equipped to these places. I met a few of those cases and I truly felt for those kids. That can really damage a person and it did. I wasn't shocked to know that once those kids returned they were pissed and some even severed all contact with their families. Sending a kid to a program because they are being rebellious and talking back is not ok in my book. It's like spanking your 2 year old for touching everything (the kid is just being a kid). I admit that some kids didn't need to be there. Adolescence is not a fun time. It's a stage we all go through. I hate (I never use this word cause it's so strong) that abuse and corruption exists amongst these programs. My fellow peers (for the majority) are as strong willed as I am. We often talk about how that is what kept us sane in these places. These places are a last resort and no place for a kid who is acting out a little. Parents should really stop being lazy and start using different options before sending their kids away.
[ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-20 00:29 ]
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Niles,
Well, the education is another weak point in the program. I am the type of person that learns really easily. School was a joke to tell the truth. It consisted of reading a text book, taking a multiple choice test, passing all the tests on each chapter, moving on to the next subject. Well, I can read and retain that information really easily. However, someone like my brother who requires detailed explanations, repetition, and a teacher would easily fail. They may pass the test but the information wouldn't be retained. That's harmful to them. My IQ is high but that I don't owe to the program's sorry excuse for schooling.
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Yet again, Perrigaud, you 'getting' something out of this treatment is a testament to your own will, and not the program.
Its "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger".
You didnt go work out or go to a VOLUNTARY bootcamp, you basically went through a drawn out kidnapping and torture session in much less vile and intense ways.
Sure, a strong person, maybe even yourself might get kidnapped and raped, survive, and come out like "Yeah, is that all you got? I'm stronger than you!" and 'grow' from it in the sense that scarred skin gets tougher - but its not like its a good thing.
Back to education - lack of it makes you dependant on your parents and therefore the PROGRAM even more! Without an education you cant do diddly squat in this day and age except the Military. I really dont see why your parents had to shell out such insane money to get low-paid dolts to boss you around and dominate you all day and put you through kiddy classes (or make you teach yourself) and cover the rent in your private jail.
Where does that money go?
There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington
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The money (some of it) goes to the food they would buy in bulk. Also, the rest goes to their (CEO's)lavish homes. We were always wondering ourselves. We figured it went to their homes cause they sure did have some nice ones.
My whole mentality is my philosophy on how to approach situations that are out of my control. It doesn't make it right(by it I mean what the situation is). The way I figured it at that time was I could hate it and spend more time in it or I can look at it as an oppurtunity to pick up some useful things. That's what I did. I made it work for me. I'm a survivor in many ways. Survivor of the program? Sure. Survivor in life? Of course. I've been through so much in my short life span. I don't blame anything on my past. That includes all that happened before the program. My life's too short for me to go around holding grudges. I may not always forgive. But I won't dwell on it and let it consume me. Shit happens and in the end I can't change it. But I sure as hell will learn from it and use it to my advantage. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-20 04:22 ]
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The "shit that's happening" is happening to other kids too. At this time. As we write.It continues and gets worse.
Parents are not aware they are paying for the CEO's houses. They truly believe their children are getting fed and educated with real credentialed staff.Staff who also should be properly paid.
Your attitude is why and how they are able to continue with their deceit.
Buying lavish houses for the Utah slobs was never my intent.
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You got a fatalistic survivor mentality. Thats NOT therapeutic. It means you know how to survive trauma and come out of it okay or stronger.
That doesnt mean trauma-for-profit is ever going to be a good thing.
All it means is youre a strong person. For every person like you there are several people who were broken and destroyed, or people who just manipulated their way out playing the game right back at the program. All this has shown to be good is... you. Not what was done to or 'for' you. Although, I'm sure the program would say otherwise.
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
-- Quentin Crisp
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On 2005-01-20 04:08:00, Perrigaud wrote:
I may not always forgive. But I won't dwell on it and let it consume me. Shit happens and in the end I can't change it. But I sure as hell will learn from it and use it to my advantage.
Forgiveness is devine. Forgetfulness is just a mental dysfunction. :nworthy:
Perri, I was thinking just about the same way 20 years ago. You're right, there's nothing you can do to change the past. But the future is another story. If you're really curious about where the money went, look into politics. That's where it usually lands up. And that's a matter of interest to all of us. You have your views and your experience with how these people ran a rehab. Do you think they'd do a good job at making laws?
Religion is all bunk.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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Antigen,
Laws; out of the question. I'll adress this as soon as I can in full detail.
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To NiteOwl,
I am working with CPS to get my child back. I am planning on going soon, will let you all know how it goes. I don't owe those people a penny! I pay month to month. Also, I have full custody of my child. I am not going to let those people keep me from her. I didn't allow her useless, abusive father have her, and I'm not letting these assholes keep her!
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You dont have her back yet? ::jawdrop::
Show up in person and state clearly who has custody of the child and if they give you shit, call the damn cops!!!
THIS IS RIDICULOUS! ITS YOUR KID! :flame: Do you programmmies STILL Support this ridiculousness? Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind...it doesn't matter!
-- Chuck Gauran
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This situation? No. Chi get her out.
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This situation really blows my mind. I'm trying to imagine why a parent doesn't feel they can walk into a program and retrieve their own child. It just doesn't make sense to me. Please help me understand you reluctance to do just that. I personally would feel great satisfaction in doing so.
What message does that send the kids too, that even their parent is 'afraid' of the program. Model strentgh and integrity for your child. You can always feed information to CPS when she's free. They can only bully you if you 'let them'.
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Chi3, why not plan a short vacation for you and your daughter? Nothing formally therapeutic. Just some time away from everything and everyone. Go get her and take her down to someplace warm and relaxing this time of year and just talk a little bit about what to do next.
It's our goddamn duty to get these people back on drugs so they can think for themselves again!!!
RTP2003
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Excellent suggestion Antigen. Worked wonders for my daughter and I. Took a road trip and had a blast! It ended up really giving us an understanding of each other that we had previously not had...and I always had a fairly good relationship with her, even through her 'troubled years'.
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Be a MOM and not a program or school customer. Take her home and do what nature intended!
We went for thousands of years without programs or places where people come take your kid away from you.
If youre afraid of her friends, the best way to fix this is to get everyone to talk without emotions like anger or fear and just start to communicate. If they, or you, cant talk to them, get a restraining order!
The program lied to you and you mistakenly sent her off, but youre now fixing that mistake. Take her home! Her friends were acting weird because she was kidnapped and taken away! They're weird but thats it! Dont let more people who want your money prey on your family anymore. They just want to make a profit!
Trust your gut instinct and put her in your arms instead of someone elses, PLEASE! MOM KNOWS BEST. Keep her with YOU! Not someone elses business!Under the benign influence of our republican institutions, and the maintenance of peace with all nations whilst so many of them were engaged in bloody and wasteful wars, the fruits of a just policy were enjoyed in an unrivaled growth of our faculties and resources.
James Madison
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On 2005-01-20 23:39:00, chi3 wrote:
"To NiteOwl,
I am working with CPS to get my child back. I am planning on going soon, will let you all know how it goes. I don't owe those people a penny! I pay month to month. Also, I have full custody of my child. I am not going to let those people keep me from her. I didn't allow her useless, abusive father have her, and I'm not letting these assholes keep her!"
Chi3, be careful w/ CPS. They are some sneaky people as well. Be careful in what you tell them because you may wake up to a surprise court hearing one day and have to prove you are a fit parent so your child does not become ward of the court and shipped off to one of their own training schools or the wretched foster care system. I've wittnessed to many horrible things like this. CPS are not on most people's sides. It's not uncommon for them to support places like your daugher is in. They enage in a lot of trickery and seem to make a lot of bad judgements when it comes to taking kids away from their parents. Ever notice the kids that are truly in dire need of someone to lookout for them usually stay in the home? Cynical, but I've seen it happened too many times.
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This is ridiculous. Chi.....do you not have sole custody of her? If so, then just go get her. PERIOD. What are they gonna do? They can't legally keep her there unless you signed over your parental rights to her. I'm assuming you didn't. Go, take your custody papers with you and DEMAND that the furnish your daughter to you IMMEDIATELY!! If they don't, call the police.
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and be prepared for a whole lot of heavy-handedness with them trying to talk you out of it. I'm absolutely SURE you'll hear the phrase DEADINSANEORINJAIL, or something to that effect. Stand your ground. DON'T be intimidated or scared. The COUNT on that. That's how they hook 'em, that's how they keep 'em. Fear.
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Reporters also like to tag along and can be helpful in recording events.
But by all means - just go get her!
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I like Antigen's suggestion. Some time away together can really do wonders.
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I agree! I agree! I haven't gone to get her not because I'm afraid of those people! I don't give a rat's ass what they think!!!! I had to wait until this weekend because I have some really serious health problems, and can't go alone. I had to wait until my husband got home from working out of state. He just got home tonite, we are going tommorrow. CPS can kiss my ass,too. I don't mind helping get some info for them or anyone else, but my kid stays with me. Just because we were told a bunch of lies by those damn people, doesn't mean we are stupid. I was weirded out about it from day 1, but my husband thought it would be rough, but o.k. Once he really found out what went on and believed it, he was pissed, too. I will let you all know what happens as soon as I can. I have heard the deadorinjail shit til I sick of it. I am upset because I made friends with a lady who put her kid there about the same time we did. She was really skeptical, too, but now that she has been to Focus, she has become "one of them." She now plans to keep her daughter there for as long as it takes. I wish I could convince her!!
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Well unfortunatly she will think how she wants to. I can only hope that her daughter ends up ok like me and others. It's a gamble. Glad to hear you are doing what you need to do. Again, don't let her slip any more. It sounds as though this girl really needs some help. I'm sure you'll give it to her. Biggest thing: let her know you love her regardless. You may not like what she does but please don't do the conditional thing. That is really hurtful for a child to hear.
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Don't worry Perri, she has our love, always has always will. She is so important to me! I love her with all of my heart. She is actually doing better, believe it or not. She has made some good decisions for herself. I am so excited to see her!
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I'm very glad shes okay! We all want to hear from her!
And as far as going there... bring some cameras along! Actually, make DAMN sure you have some, if she has any bruises or a different apperance, record it for evidence! If shes been drugged up, get her to a doc and get him to sign off on it. Keep HARD evidence, that will help us all a lot.
OWC, looks like you got some splanin' to do. :grin: I cant WAIT to see you squirm and try to make up some more grammatically retarded responces. Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.
--Thomas Jefferson
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I don't doubt that you love her. However, that's not to say she may have some resentments towards the situation. Then again I could be wrong and she may just feel closer to you. Keep and open mind and be ready for anything situation-wise. I hope she is ok with everything.
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I will, Perri. I think she will be o.k. She has actually gotten closer to her step-dad since she has been gone than before she left. They have always had a decent relationship, but my daughter has told him she didn't realize how she felt about him until he wasn't there. She has started calling him "daddy." Will this last? I dunno. I hope we can all be a better family now that we have had to go through this. I am trying to keep positive thoughts. I am going to go shower soon, and start getting ready for the trip there. Wish us luck!
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GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!! Don't let them talk you out of it. If you feel that it's right than do what you feel.
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Apparently Arizona doesnt honor any Interstate Compact law. I asked about this when I was trying to get my son out of Cross Creek- the probation super said it was not required because my son was not court ordered to be at Cross Creek.
BIG OOHPS! I removed him from Cross Creek and was charged with contempt ( up to six months in jail) and ordered to return him to Cross Creek by the weeks end. ( WIthout anyone listening to testimony on my concerns/reasons for removal.)
My son has been court ordered to be returned to Cross Creek, and I am facing jail for trying to get him out of a treatment nightmare he has been in for 6 months. He even requested to serve 60 days detention rather than return to Cross Creek ( the original sentence) but was denied that right.
So much for any sort of legalities, huh? The judge has ordered him to return to Cross Creek without providing an Interstate Compact for his protection. I am holding him responsible morally, legally, ethically for anything that happens to my son.
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Whoa whoa whoa!!! Talk about misfreakin information!!!!
My son was in Cross Creek for six months prior to my removing him-
I was not allowed ANY visitation- and monitored phone calls only after the first 3 months.
In order to visit, he had to obtain a certain level- AND I had to go to TWO of thier lovely seminars where the koolaid flows freely. I was not able to attend right away due to the COST ( Hotel, airfare..) as I have a husband fighting a war overseas and we are living off a private's salary. But hey what do they care about a mother - they have daddy paying the bill and looking forward to making nice little commissions while he does his keys...
Moms are overrated anyway, right?
IF I went to the seminars - it will still be almost a YEAR before I got a supervised visit with my son.
As to mail- absolutely it is monitored and the kids all know they get categories if they complain, the same as the phone calls.
WAKE Up already and figure this out... no more lies!
TEAM TOGETHER and stop these places - and thier big money campaign contributions so that parents who dont want thier kids institutionalised and brainwashed can fight the system and get thier kids out!!!!
Maybe I should just show up at my contempt trial with duct tape over my mouth because WWASP cronies have it all SEWN UP!
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Yikes .. another post I just have to respond to-
Did Deborah say that Cross Creek had integrity?
Are you kidding me? Have you done any research on these people?
Check out the campaign contributions- buying off legislators and judges..
Robert Lichfield ( founder CC, owner of property at CC, and receives his mail at CC) in trouble with Romney.. after already paying a fine and admitting wrongdoing according to the FEC, director of a Provo facility that closed down... Karr Farnsworth, current administrator of CC, also involved with Provo school closed down for abuse and neglect, as well as another facility in So Carolina. Numerous lawsuits and affidavits from survivors and parents.. almost as many as the names of corporations they use to throw up a smokescreen on thier misdoings.
Using misleading advertising and websites acting as referral services to tie up the web and multilevel market children...
Lying to parents about the length of the program in the presell- as well as thier qualifications in dealing with mental illness?
And just tell me, dear friend, why on EARTH is there that pretty little clause in the enrollment agreement "RIGHT TO ACT".. you know what I am talking about. WHy exactly do they need to obtain visas and passports in a parents stead? Hello! I have the contract. My son has even been coerced to try to sell my and my ex husband on the "Jamaica" program ( which he knows nothing about the reality of).., can you say "third world country and human rights violations?"
Integrity? my freaking lack of assets.
You have sold your soul- and your child. Wake up and face the guilt.
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Please understand, it is the nature of webboards to show dissent...
except maybe at the Cross Creek webboard- perhaps because it is just as censored as your daughters mail and phone calls t you?
Also- think about this, when ever I have asked a questioned or expressed a fear regarding Cross Creek - I am told to "talk to the support group or the family rep" both are being paid to tell me how great the program is (a) and (b) parents have thier kids at cross creek for a multitude of reasons- why would the mom of suzy with an eating disorder know whether or not the program was appropriate for my son with bipolar? What makes them qualified to refer or to reccommend anything regarding mental health?
Lastly, Those support groups DO attack>I forwarded a long list of concerns to my ex husband when I first learned what Cross Creek was all about- I was panicked and I wanted to know the truth- his "Key" pals, rather than explaining the info I had or acting like normal thinking humans and saying, wow.. whats that all about? - instead called me "hysterical", "guilty". "ridiculous" "bitter", "ignorant" etc etc. And then the family rep and the school encouraged me to go the local support group- to go be with those people who just said all my fears about my sons welfare were poppycock and that I was basically an ignorant bitter exwife. Hmmm
Yeah I really want to go face that mob.
Thanks, I would rather have a real psychiatrist or clinical psychologist diagnose my son- not a parent support group OR a social worker at Cross Creek. ( Not real pleased about having a judge diagnose him and decide he needed 2 years therapy when most rehabs are 30-90 days in some judicious whim, either)
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You considered going to the Media?
Call CNN... and the BBC while you're at it.
Go make a blog on 'blogspot' or whatever and Ill try to post it on fark.
Times like this make me wonder why I don't just take off like a bat out of hell to Alberta and make some money as a roughneck and then save up and move to Sweden or something.
:roll:
America's dead and we're just pissing on the grave.
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Yikes .. another post I just have to respond to-
Did Deborah say that Cross Creek had integrity?
Are you kidding me? Have you done any research on these people?
What are you referring to? You have me confused with someone else. I too fought to get my son out of a program under different circumstances. Integrity is not a word I associate with any program, or the industry in general.
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I am sorry! I got the wrong name! There was someone on one of the posts farther back talking about the "integrity of Cross Creek" and it really upset me in light of what my son and I are going through.
I am sure you can understand my being totally frantic and upset about all this and the neckhold WWASP has on my son....
I am glad you got your son out- good for you! !
As for as the media thing- thanks for the suggestion. The advocacy groups that I am working with have told me to hold off, but I have contacted Dr Phil, Montel Williams show, Rose Moore show, etc...
The problem is the disposition of this judge- if I do too much to anger him it could make things even worse when I am tried for contempt.
At this point I dont care- I hold this whole sytem in contempt- but they insist I cant help my son if I get put in jail right now. If I do get put in jail, trust me I am going to try to do it in as public of a way as possible. I will gladly serve jailtime if it means getting these people exposed and my son out of this nightmare!!!!!
Anyway if anyone knows anything about interstate compact and if the judge may be violating a law of any sort- or anything that might help - please email me or post it here. THANK YOU!!
AZTreefrog34@AOL.com
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Catherine Sutton of Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund has infinate knowledge of the ICPC and other issues you may be facing in AZ. I will contact you by email, please reply and I will give you her direct line.
She may be of great help to you and your son.
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ICPC is not a law, it's a compact.
Waste of time even going down that road as many parents who have tried can tell you.
Best way to get your kid out is by court order if you can't convince custodial parent/guardian to remove child.
Ex-WWASPS kids have testified in court to help in this regard.
Good Luck!
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BEE:
You may not want to count on Dr. Phil or Montel--they have placed children into programs as part of their TV shows.
Rose Moore: She features ISABELLE ZEHNDER (CAICA) on her radio show --- and if you read postings here on FORNITS: it has recently been disclosed that Zehnder refers children to Sue Scheff /PURE; and to Sunrise Adolescent Transports--which is owned by a former WWASP employee who worked for TEEN HELP.
You may want to read the PURE BULLSHIT AND CAICA thread to inform yourself about these issues.
Do you have an attorney, Bee?
That is what you need--and a good one.
The Interstate Compact Act seems to be a regulation that is rarely followed by these programs---and may be a weak legal "fight" for securing your son's release from this program.
Trying to "discredit a Judge" does not appear to be the best legal strategy, either---since you need a LEGAL OPTION that can work FAST to benefit your son.
You do seem to need a competent, attorney who is dedicated to "what's in the best interest of your son...and his immediate well-being, and safety."
THE BEST OF LUCK TO YOU !
You also need to BEWARE of people who self-label themselves as "ADVOCATES"--many have their own agendas and it is not always "saving children from abusive programs." Many so-called "Acvocates" actually make money by placing children into programs for a fee.
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Bee,
No apology necessary, just wanted to correct the confusion. I understand your upset and frustration, as many other parents will who found themselves fighting to get their child out of a placement. Difficult to do once the placement has been made. The program will do everything in their power to support the parent who made the placement, including providing perjured testimony.
Unfortunately, I didn't get my son out.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 512#188512 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=188512#188512)
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=91673#91673 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=91673#91673)
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=60983#60983 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=60983#60983)
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 535#215535 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=215535#215535)
Many parents have found themselves in the same situation, but I can't remember a case in which the child was court ordered. Usually it's one parent enrolling the kid without the other parents knowledge or consent.
The ICPC didn't help in my situation and dealing with Tx and Ga ICPC offices was a frustrating nightmare.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=55663#55663 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=55663#55663)
You can forget about the Compact anyway. Although.... I'm not sure, it may still apply to court-ordered placements, but it no longer applies to parent placements. We have Robin Arnold-Williams, Executive Director of the Utah Department of Human Services and NATSAP to thank for that.
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings. ... ew&id=1748 (http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmode=view&id=1748)
July 04
Reform of the Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children
The Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children plays a necessary role for ensuring that children placed across state lines receive appropriate care and supervision. However, it has not been sufficiently amended in its 44-year existence. APHSA, as the Secretariat of the Association of Administrators of the ICPC, and based on recommendations from its’ ICPC reform task force, has embarked on a comprehensive reform of the ICPC. A drafting and development team comprised of a broad and diverse set of stakeholders representing state commissioners, state and local child welfare directors, ICPC administrators, the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys, court administrators, the American Bar Association, Juvenile and Family Court Judges, National Indian Child Welfare Association, Child Welfare League of America, and the National CASA Association. We begin the work of redrafting the compact next week and will complete the process by the end of this year.
Litchfield particulary disliked the ICPC.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=55532#55532 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=55532#55532)
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BTW stay away from Dr. Phil.... he has a nasty habit of sending kids to programs himself.
Montel actually admits abuse happens in programs though, he had a show just about that once. He's alright.
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I am leaving for Cross Creek tomorrow, under court order, to return my son. We put in a motion for a "stay" but it didn't come through yet.
My heart is breaking.
I really cant believe how crazy this whole thing is.. and how many people involved. I am beginning to really think the WWASP has the legal system in Arizona in its pocket.
I have joint custody, my son has always lived with me and only visited his father.. how did I end up not having a say?
As I said before, I hold the judge personally responsible for any harm that comes to my son. I also hold myself- but at least I was willing to look into what was going on. I have a hard time holding my ex husband responsible even though I blame him for a lot of things..
I really believe he has been totally brainwashed by these people. It is almost pathetic.
My son and him speak in this strange language that I don't understand.
I catch my son in phrases and ideas that I cannot really understand.
Has anyone heard about this stuff?
Why is everything " scandalous"?
My son told me they have to ask for "permission to pass" across thresholds and such... when I said that was odd, he told me was for his own protection- that if he didn't he might die. I questioned that and he said- "well maybe not die but being scandalous".
He seemed confused that I didnt understand.
Little things leak out but even though he wants to leave the program, he is still protecting it in some odd way. Perhaps because he has to go back.
Or perhaps because 6 months was enough to program him more than I could have anticipated...
How can you get testimony about abuse from a kid who no longer seems to see abuse as abusive, or even questionable? How can you get them to tell you about strange things they have experienced when they no longer seem to understand what is strange?
I have a question perhaps those survivors among you can answer...
my son has always been extremely creative-
have any of you found that you have lost your ability to be creative or to find inspiration? Does that come back over time if lost? Is there any ability to be spontaneous after this sort of programming?
Thanks for your advice and answers.
I will check in on Monday when I get back in town.
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I am sorry to hear about your awful situation. i once heard a radio interview with Shelby Earnshaw from Isaccorp on this show
http://www.anniearmenlive.org (http://www.anniearmenlive.org)
Perhaps you might want to give them a try.
The broadcast station is called World Talk Radio.
I would not place any hope in Dr Phil. While Aspen is his favourite place to send kids he also once sent a Girl to Provo Canyon School. This is where WWASP king pin Robert Litchfield got his start. Good luck
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Habeas corpus is a wonderful thing.
Also, check with www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org).
I'm bowing out of this thread now. I'm really tired of seeing shit I can't do anything about and it bringing me down. No offence to you but I've been at this since april 2004.
Unless I can do something about it I'd rather not know. I'm sorry about what you and him are going through... all I can say is be mean, get a lawyer, find out your rights, and be as cruel and mean as you can to his father. The less money he has the less he can do to you in court. He's done this to your child, and you need to do something about it.
And do not let him get transfered to Tranquiltiy Bay... not on your life.
Good luck,
Niles
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I am leaving for Cross Creek tomorrow, under court order, to return my son.
How can you possibly help it if he runs away, though?
I mean, what if he were to somehow get his hands on a bus ticket and end up in some other state, with somebody you definitely don't know and completely out of your hands?
What if you were to leave a few hundred dollars in cash lying around and he just kinda took it and went?
And what if he were to realize the error of his ways and, by pure coincidence, come back after the stay was issued?
Use your brain, lady!!
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How can you get testimony about abuse from a kid who no longer seems to see abuse as abusive, or even questionable? How can you get them to tell you about strange things they have experienced when they no longer seem to understand what is strange?
They have to be re-educated on what constitutes abuse. It can take some time and may require a therapist's help in sorting out the confusion.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 692#152692 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=152692#152692)
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=37315#37315 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=37315#37315)
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=37375#37375 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=37375#37375)
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I was sent to Cross Creek Manor in December of 2004(the 22nd to be exact.) This place was awful. I'm not going to say that the living conditions were horrible, because they weren't. It was the mental abuse. I have always been rather independent and from the moment I got there I knew it wasn't for me. After I had been there for a month I had finally succumbed to the fact that I wasn't going to work the program,( and I had 2½ years until I would be 18.) It was January and I hadn't spoke or seen my parents in 1 month. I got one of the first few letters from my father. My older sister had passed away and they had her funeral the day I arrived in LaVerkin, UT.
From this point on I was lost. The director, Ron Garrett, was constantly picking your mind, calling you horrible things, slut, whore ext. Every wonderful expierence I have ever hadI was told was "not-working", from even the most innocent ones like canoeing with my father, or hunting etc. Garrett would ask you questions, and you had to be honest, because if you lie he'll put you on staff budy, however I was also put on staff budy Many times for giving an answer that he didn't like.
now if you wonder waht "staff budy" is let me explain:
no hairties, talking, eye contact, pen, pencils, books, shoe laces, only 1 thin sweatshirt(and it gets quite cold in Utah, especially coming from FL), 5 minutes to undress, shower, wash your hai and body, get dressed brush your teeth, with the bathroom door open. This brings in the humiliation aspect of it. you couldn't blow your nose, scrath your head,face or anywhere with out prior permission. you went to the bathroom with 5 girls at a time, usually about 4 times a day, or as soon as the staff felt like taking you. leaving the door unlocked,with you feet on your hands, once you moved your hands you had 10 seconds to be out of the stall. and when you weren't in school, you were in the punishment room: "worksheets" in this room you would sit for about 10-13 hours per day. the only thing you did in this room is listen to tapes about authors, inventors,artists etc, along with the tapes were questionarres. no breaks, no talking, no human contact. aat one point Ron Garrett kept me on this punishment for 3½ weeks, during which I was restrained by 2 staff members for asking a question. I weigh about 120 they together about 400. My hardest point was when Ron and I had a fight, he drug me into the bathroom and I was forced to look into the mirror and ask to repeat these words: I am a mean, nasty girl, and I deserve every pain I have gotten. Shortly after this my parents came and took me home. I spent 10 months and 6 days in hell.
IF YOU ARE A PARENT READING THIS AND CONDSIDERING SENDING YOUR CHILD AWAY. DON'T!!! I AM 18 YEARS OLD NOW, AND I WAKE UP CRYING 4 TIMES A WEEK FROM NIGHTMARES. I HAVE NOT FORGIVEN MY PARENTS, BECAUSE UNLESS YOU LIVE EVERYDAY IN A PLACE LIKE THAT NOT KNOWING WHEN YOU WILL SEE HOME AGAIN YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND. THINK ABOUT, THEY PROMISE YOU A BETTER CHILD, BUT I WAS NEVER ALLOWED ANY EXPERIENCES, OTHER THAN WHAT THEY WANTED YOU TO EEXPERIENCE. THAT IS BRAIN WAHSING. TALK TO YOUR KIDS. MY ENTIRE FUTURE WAS AFFECTED. WHEN I WAS SENT AWAY I HAD A 3.8 GPA. THE CLASSES THEY OFFERD THERE HAD NO AP CREDIT AND MY GRADUATING GPA WAS A 2.4. DONT DO IT. PLEASE IT'S NOT WORTH WHAT ME AND YOUR KIDS WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES.
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How can you get testimony about abuse from a kid who no longer seems to see abuse as abusive, or even questionable?
Very simple. Ask them in detail how they were helped. Get that on record. That speaks volumes more than descriptions of abuse ever could hope to.
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I was sent to Cross Creek Manor in December of 2004(the 22nd to be exact.) This place was awful. I'm not going to say that the living conditions were horrible, because they weren't. It was the mental abuse. I have always been rather independent and from the moment I got there I knew it wasn't for me. After I had been there for a month I had finally succumbed to the fact that I wasn't going to work the program,( and I had 2½ years until I would be 18.) It was January and I hadn't spoke or seen my parents in 1 month. I got one of the first few letters from my father. My older sister had passed away and they had her funeral the day I arrived in LaVerkin, UT.
From this point on I was lost. The director, Ron Garrett, was constantly picking your mind, calling you horrible things, slut, whore ext. Every wonderful expierence I have ever hadI was told was "not-working", from even the most innocent ones like canoeing with my father, or hunting etc. Garrett would ask you questions, and you had to be honest, because if you lie he'll put you on staff budy, however I was also put on staff budy Many times for giving an answer that he didn't like.
now if you wonder waht "staff budy" is let me explain:
no hairties, talking, eye contact, pen, pencils, books, shoe laces, only 1 thin sweatshirt(and it gets quite cold in Utah, especially coming from FL), 5 minutes to undress, shower, wash your hai and body, get dressed brush your teeth, with the bathroom door open. This brings in the humiliation aspect of it. you couldn't blow your nose, scrath your head,face or anywhere with out prior permission. you went to the bathroom with 5 girls at a time, usually about 4 times a day, or as soon as the staff felt like taking you. leaving the door unlocked,with you feet on your hands, once you moved your hands you had 10 seconds to be out of the stall. and when you weren't in school, you were in the punishment room: "worksheets" in this room you would sit for about 10-13 hours per day. the only thing you did in this room is listen to tapes about authors, inventors,artists etc, along with the tapes were questionarres. no breaks, no talking, no human contact. aat one point Ron Garrett kept me on this punishment for 3½ weeks, during which I was restrained by 2 staff members for asking a question. I weigh about 120 they together about 400. My hardest point was when Ron and I had a fight, he drug me into the bathroom and I was forced to look into the mirror and ask to repeat these words: I am a mean, nasty girl, and I deserve every pain I have gotten. Shortly after this my parents came and took me home. I spent 10 months and 6 days in hell.
IF YOU ARE A PARENT READING THIS AND CONDSIDERING SENDING YOUR CHILD AWAY. DON'T!!! I AM 18 YEARS OLD NOW, AND I WAKE UP CRYING 4 TIMES A WEEK FROM NIGHTMARES. I HAVE NOT FORGIVEN MY PARENTS, BECAUSE UNLESS YOU LIVE EVERYDAY IN A PLACE LIKE THAT NOT KNOWING WHEN YOU WILL SEE HOME AGAIN YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND. THINK ABOUT, THEY PROMISE YOU A BETTER CHILD, BUT I WAS NEVER ALLOWED ANY EXPERIENCES, OTHER THAN WHAT THEY WANTED YOU TO EEXPERIENCE. THAT IS BRAIN WAHSING. TALK TO YOUR KIDS. MY ENTIRE FUTURE WAS AFFECTED. WHEN I WAS SENT AWAY I HAD A 3.8 GPA. THE CLASSES THEY OFFERD THERE HAD NO AP CREDIT AND MY GRADUATING GPA WAS A 2.4. DONT DO IT. PLEASE IT'S NOT WORTH WHAT ME AND YOUR KIDS WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES.
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bump for this warning to parents
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bump for this warning to parents
For the few that bother to take the time.