Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: try another castle on January 08, 2007, 02:34:50 AM
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1. Type of restriction
2. Who ran it?
3. How many days?
4. What was your work detail?
5. What was your reading assignment?
6. What were your writing assignments? (optional)
7. What family/team were you in?
8. What were the "agreements"? (I have particular interest in hearing from people who were on jumpsuits/outdoor restrictions, since they didn't have this when I was there.)
9. What year? (optional) I'm interested in this because I'd like to see how these punishments have evolved over time.
10. Do you still have your notebook?
11. Did you make a sundial on your work detail so you could tell what time it was? 8-)
No need to mention why you were put on it, unless you want to.
Don't worry if you can't fill out everything on the list. Just say what you remember.
These questions are based off of the 1980s model of a full-time, so one size certainly does not fit all.
If you've been on more than one full-time or outdoor restriction, please feel free to give details about any or all of them, if you want.
Also, feel free to add any info that isn't on the list, if you want.
EDIT: Okay, now I'm confused. I originally thought that the jumpsuit included the outdoor restriction where you have to live in a tent, but what I've found of it on this site says that they would put you in a jumpsuit to do your work detail. However, there is no mention of the connection with the outdoor restriction. Can ANYONE shed light on this??? If the outdoor restriction was not a jumpsuit, what was it called?
My answers:
1. Full-time
2. Richard
3. 14 days
4. Building a rock wall
5. Old Man and the Sea - Hemmingway
6.
- Dirt List
- Lies I told at RMA
- Things I feel badly about (what I'm ashamed to share with anyone)
- What I hate about myself
- What I'm angry about
- How I push people away (what I do to be alone)
- How am I just like "the old man"? (re: reading assignment)
- What qualities do I admire in him?
- How I create pain in my life
- My flags
- What do I want? How am I going to get it?
- What's real about me?
- What I can give to myself and others.
7. Voyageurs
8. (note: mine are rather detailed, since I still have my notebook. Richard wrote them on the inside cover.)
- Restricted to table. You must ask faculty permission to leave for any reason. (cigarette, bathroom)
- There are no privileges
- Bans - Voyageurs, Discovery, Quest
- No smiling, laughing, singing or hugging
- No talking to people from your table.
- Ask questions about all assignments before you start them. (work, reading or writing.)
- Come prepared to work every day (boots, gloves, jacket, rain gear, etc.)
- Work hours: M-F 8:00-11:45, 1:00-4:45. Sat. 9:00-11:45, 1:00-4:45. Sun. 9:00-10:45, 12:30-3:45
- Dorm head or dorm support will walk you up and down from your dorm
- Total involvement in raps.
- Limited to 4 cigarettes per day
- Keep a daily journal of your thoughts and feelings for each day. Include raps, work, booth restriction, or whatever comes up that needs explaining.
9. 1987
10. Yes
11. No
Additional observation: I noticed that many of these writing assignments are simply variations of a disclosure list. In my notebook, there is a lot of repetition of information from one list to another. It's simply written in different ways, to tailor itself to the particular assignment.
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"- No smiling, laughing, singing or hugging " = spooky.
Limit on # of cigs per day... wtf?!?!
Were the 80s different than now somehow? Or did they figure they might as well let you get prison currency in their little hellhole?
Also, wtf are you talking about, exactly?
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The CEDU lingo thread goes into detail about full-times and jumpsuits, as well as descriptions on what dirt, work details, bans and flags are.
But for ease, I'll try to briefly explain here. Full-times and jumpsuits (EDIT: rather, outdoor restrictions, until I can work out the semantics of what the hell the real deal was) were a form of punishment for more "serious" violations of the rules.
Although there were lesser restriction-styled punishments that employed similar techniques for lesser violations, or for not "getting with the program".
I'm not sure how much different the 80's form of a full-time and the later forms were. One of the reasons why I posted this thread. To compare notes. I know that halfway through my stay, smoking was banned throughout the whole school, so nobody could smoke anymore.
I recall someone in this forum saying that his full time was about 60 days. He went to CEDU iin the 90s, much much longer than mine. I don't recall anyone having that long of a full-time when I was there.
EDIT: This was the only thread I could find that had some relevant information regarding later versions of restrictions. It still doesn't give me all I need to know, however.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=12451 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=12451)
Unfortunately, this forum seems to be pretty dead nowadays. A lot of the NWA and BCA survivors don't seem to post here any more. I'd really like to hear from someone like dniceo7, banana rama or "if you want to know.. then ask". They were there in the later years, and could shed some light on this for me.
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Oh man....Do NOT get me started on these damn fulltimes. Truth be told, I was NEVER put into a jumpsuit. It was too "comfortable" for me seeing as how I didn't give a shit about my stuff being taken away and work assignments, damn. I would finish ANY project given in a matter of days because manual labor was NOTHING to this diesal chick! (for those who don't believe me, ask around...I was cut) Anyway, I was on a fulltime every other month for three years. I also spent two outta of three years there on All Guy Bans. I was fucked over at every chance possible. I did learn some things on them, but when the school only works with you on ONE issue what the hell you supposed to learn after awhile that I didn't already know?! LOL! It was control thing for sho!
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Dom, do you have any info on the restrictions where someone was forced to sleep outside in a tent? Do you have any idea what those were called, and what the rules were?
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Sleepin in tents....hmmmm, don't really remember anything like that but I wouldn't put it past that place. Somethin like that would be considered a solo or something to that effect. The rules was probably something like...house down or depending on which staff were still there, God down bans. No smilin, touchin. LOL. Does this shit sound familiar to anyone else?
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I get so lost in program speak :(
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Sleepin in tents....hmmmm, don't really remember anything like that but I wouldn't put it past that place. Somethin like that would be considered a solo or something to that effect. The rules was probably something like...house down or depending on which staff were still there, God down bans. No smilin, touchin. LOL. Does this shit sound familiar to anyone else?
Maybe the outdoor restrictions were something only at NWA? Or maybe late RMA before it moved from the cow creek campus? I vaguely recall hearing that the person on the restriction had to live in a tent on that "island" between the garden house dorms and the main house. There was that circular path/road around it, and it was really hard to walk up when it iced over. I guess this wouldn't apply to BCA, since that was part of the NWA campus. I don't know if this is accurate, though.
Never heard the term "house down" or "down bans". We had "bans", though. The no touching, singing or smiling applied to full-times when I was there. (Maybe booths, too. I don't remember.)
I'm curious, Dom, what was the longest you were on a full-time for?
I get so lost in program speak
The CEDU lingo thread has a pretty good break down of it all.
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It was pretty long. A month and a half I believe. But the all guy bans was for two years. LOL. They LOVED fuckin with me.
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I noticed that the girls put on all guy bans were often guilty of nothing more than being attractive and charismatic. That's it. I also noticed that certain female staff members were jealous of these girls and took it out on them. I was the least flirtatious person at CEDU--too scared. And, pretty internal...but I remember a staff member (male) who I did not know haranguing me in a rap for giving boners to guys when I walked by... (Though I would rather be saluted by boners than rifles.) I think I just gave him a boner, but somehow, it was my fault.
Jesus-- between hormones and restrictions limiting their affections, the wind would make anyone hard.
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A trend that I have noticed, and I could be wrong, is that there seems to be a relationship between the effectiveness of the coercive ideology, and the nuts-and-bolts aspects of punishments and restrictions.
When I was there, it was no-tolerance. Everyone pretty much bought into the program, and were happy little brainwashed kids, at least that's how it appeared to me. The restrictions sucked, but people were certainly not on full-times for a month and a half, if memory serves. And if they were, it was an exception as opposed to a norm.
However, when the hypocrisy and the contradictions of the "emotional growth" aspect of the program started to become more evident, and the ideological underpinnings began to crumble upon themselves, (which is what inevitably happens with coercive practices, sooner or later), the punishments and restrictions became more severe and absurd, to counteract the fact that the kids were no longer going to be able to be kept in line by a bunch of cultish bullshit that was showing its age and obsolescence.
I've talked to people in this forum who attended in the mid to late 90s and said that they really never had much of a problem resisting the program's teachings. This was unheard of in my time. Everyone towed the line. We ratted on each other, we laid ourselves bare in raps, we disclosed our worst secrets, and we truly believed that if we didn't run our anger regularly, something bad would happen to our brains. People who didn't get with the program or tried to fake it were nailed, dropped peer groups or sent to wilderness. They were singled out.
I predicted CEDU's demise before I even knew it had been shut down. I came to my own conclusions that the theoretical garbage that was perpetuated there would eventually implode upon itself, and that would be paired with a rise in other, more blatant, physical forms of abuse, until finally, the entire thing would just run itself into the ground.
When I did find out about the closings, and the lawsuits, and the riot, it didn't surprise me in the least. It was still shocking, hearing about the kinds of things that happened there, but there was also that aspect of "Holy crap! I was right!" You would think that I would have felt validated, but it left a very bad, sickening taste in my mouth.
But this is what happens in every cult. It starts out with a coercive ideology that draws people in and makes them conform. Then, eventually, things start to fall apart, and the atmosphere of the cult changes to a much darker and/or more chaotic/disorganized one. Synanon, Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, Branch Dividians, and yes, CEDU.
I can tell you this, when I was there, kids weren't made to sit outside in a tent, regardless of the weather for up to 7 months sometimes (according to a fornits poster). People weren't made to sit out in the cold with no shelter for two days as punishment, they weren't made to cut an entire lawn with their hands, they weren't on full-times for two months, nor were they on bans from half the fucking school for two years. Why? Because the ideology was still working on keeping us complacent and brainwashed. But that kind of mumbo jumbo can't sustain itself forever. Something else has to step in and pick up the slack once that starts to crumble. Once one form of extremism subsides, another one has to replace it. The good news is, in CEDU's case, neither form was able to sustain itself forever. Its contradictions and hypocrisy were instrumental in its undoing.
And thank god for that, eh? Let's hope other places follow suit, with as few casualties as possible. The problem is, the more chinks in the armor, the more kids end up getting hurt in new and brutal ways.
Which brings me back to my reasons for this thread. I want to gain a better understanding of this inversely-proportional relationship between coercive ideology, and more "physical" forms of abuse. i.e. restrictions, full-times, work details, bans. This is why I am curious as to when people were there and what kinds of restrictions they were on. It would also be helpful to know how much of a "programmie" you were while you were there. There's no shame in admitting if you were. I know I was.
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When I wasn't getting with the program enough, I was on what amounted to a full time without really being one. I had a lot of this kind of treatment because I didn't do much to get in trouble. I was terrified of anything that couldv'e (constantly) been described as worse.
And (as I once mentioned after some words by Carmen Earl "not do anything wrong, ever") Until I made it to Challenge. Even after having an apocolyptic experience in the FIFTH propheet- The I Want To Live Propheet- I was found to have been "sliding by" and was put on bans for a long time. Work details lasted forever and I created an entire Storm drain system by hand. And I became interested in very little more than physical labor ( hated classes, anyhow) and self introspection. (Castle, and Also the longest full time I remember was in your peer group, I think it was at least four weeks!, It'd be interesting to contact BL and find out about how long it really was. I wonder if he's still sane/abovetheground.)
But I was on a shitload of restrictions and that was all day. I sat in a booth, all night. And it wasn't a full time. I hadn't really done anything wrong. Well, since I was now "with the program", (after the IWTL you were considered upper school) and set to go HOME MY GOD, for the first time, I was jumping through all sorts of un named hoops to get that significant acheivement. I recall it became the reason for my psuedo full time. Something terrible was going to happen to me that I couldn't control unless I "got with it". It was just a sick twisted mind game. There was no reason for it, except that I still hadn't really bonded with a staff yet. It was absolutely integral to the philosophy of the school that I LOVE THE STAFF, I thank them for allowing me to stay, and save me from the outside and the inside evil. The evil inside myself without the help of the skool was the major enemy created for me by the staff there.
I was anti authoritarian and very independent to begin with. When that shred was still there and I was prepared to go home, I think the leadership of Challenge VJ and Doug Kim- Brown, then newest Headmaster, saw that I was finally close to convincing my parents to get me out of there.
So after my punishments, I didn't have my own temperments anymore, and after I bonded with staff, I had the love that I needed so bad from HOME to begin with, and it was created by the restrictions, the writing assignments, and the labor. This great love of RMA was bonded terrificly in my mind as my resistance melted into ether and I cried and screamed and ranted in raps to put on the show for my peers, the upper school, and my new parents...CEDU.
And after that final year (which I can't even bring myself to admit how BRAINWASHED, I was, finally) , they kicked me out, counted their money from my parents and the rest in my group, and sent me out to the now psuedo world, with psuedo family, and psuedo self confidence and a half- baked ideology.
That's what happened to modify me and how, in as few words as possible. Guess I don't need this book anymore!
have a nice day. ruined mine.
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We've talked about BL, and now that you have reminded me, I do have vague memories of the full-time. There is one other student who was on a booth for what seemed like a very long time, too, and you and I both knew her and remember that. However, they seemed to be exceptions. I really could just have a muddled memory about all of this as well.
A lot of what I am referring to were things mentioned in the lawsuit, such as a student being buried, and students assaulting each other. (Nobody broke the no violence rule when I was there.) This, to me, was indicative of a collapse in organized mental coercion. Staff seemed more disorganized, chaotic and more brutal in their doling out of restrictions. Granted, the staff were equally as brutal when you and I were there, but it was via mindfuckery. The restrictions when you and I were there were of course, totally ridiculous, but it's a question of degrees.
The other aspect is, there was less restriction regarding things like music and privileges. They fucking played Metallica in the truth for fuck's sake, and some kids were allowed to have CD players in the dorms. (According to testimony in fornits threads.) I also read that it was much easier to get away with things like having sex. There really seemed to be a breaking down of what you and I were familiar with. However, the slack seemed to have been taken up by the method and level of punishment.
Ultimately, the only way we can know for sure if my theory holds any water is to hear from students who came after us, in the mid to late 90s and the 00s.
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1. Type of restriction
- Fulltime
2. Who ran it?
- Mike Bonner
3. How many days?
- 32 days
4. What was your work detail?
- Built a staircase, a rock garden, and cleared a hillside of brush and small trees.
5. What was your reading assignment?
- None that I recall.
6. What were your writing assignments? (optional)
- I don't remember. I was always verbose so I had 2 notebooks by the time I was done. I remember that there was list after list after list after list. It was pretty simple and I don't remember getting much out of what I wrote.
7. What family/team were you in?
- Discovery
8. What were the "agreements"? (I have particular interest in hearing from people who were on jumpsuits/outdoor restrictions, since they didn't have this when I was there.)
- Bans, some staff, and New Horizons down. They wanted me to be lonely, and I was.
9. What year? (optional) I'm interested in this because I'd like to see how these punishments have evolved over time.
- 1991
10. Do you still have your notebook?
- Yeah
11. Did you make a sundial on your work detail so you could tell what time it was?
- No. I had liked working. It stopped my mind and fatigued me. Sitting at the damn booth during non-working hours was the hard part for me.
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Never in the history of me posting on this site, has any thread hit me like this just did! I'm so pissed! As I sit back and think about my THIRD day at BCA I knew I was fucked.....
The only thing that anyone knew about me was that I was a good looking 14 year old who appeared to like to hang around guys more that I liked to hang around females. As a matter of fact, I couldn't really stand females who weren't tomboys like me. (Plus, I had the whole "gangster" image gettin thrown into my face because people knew THAT aspect about my life without knowing my name. Of course, they only knew the aspect of it that was ridiculed and used as a "tool") Next thing I knew, my team leader calls me into a room off the dining hall, (Old Eagle Team Room, later became the Bison Team Room) and thanks to an 'upper school student' throws me on All Guy Bans because i have dishonest relationships with men. Of course because no one had really taken any time to get to know anything about me yet, I had a hard time understanding who I even had a relationship with at that point that they were talkin about but I knew that this meant 'Do not speak with the boys in the school or I was gonna look like a mechanic' <---Jumpsuit :P
So these bans that I spent two years on (and if you can believe this, the only reason why I had gaps in the bans was because after awhile people really forgot I was on them) But almost as soon as they were forgotten, I was seen talkin with a member of the opposite sex, or laughin or smiling at them and they were re-instilled!
As far as the work assignments, I could turn the shit pile four times in a day! Manual labor had never been ANYTHING to me. The full time that affected me the most was the one where I had to make the island that used to sit behind the red shed at the farm at BCA. I spent some time in the dirt area that seperated RMA from BCA, not the soccer field, but more towards the wood correl at RMA. There used to be big piles of dirt filled with rocks of all sizes, (including pebbles and shit). I had to use dirt from that field, so I towed wheelbarrows from the wood correl at RMA to the farm at BCA. I also had to make sure that NONE of the dirt had ANY form of rock sediment in it. It was ridiculous. I also had to line this island I had made with large boulders. This was all to reflect that I wouldn't ask for help with this project as I don't ask for help in life. How are you gonna punish someone for being independant, because really if you look at it, that's all that's about.
Once I finished that work assignment in an insane amount of time, they took me off work assignments which took the place of my classes. All day unless I was using the bathroom, eating or sleeping, I sat at that damn table in Quixote Lodge. And when I DID eat, I sat at a table alone then too! They said that I hid out in the work assignments!
:roll:
I hadn't remembered these details until now. God Damn!
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It stopped my mind and fatigued me.
That's by design. It makes you nice and vulnerable for the raps and writing assignments you were going to be put through. They didn't want you thinking or resisting.
The tactic is literally called "mind-stopping" by cult experts, so it's very interesting that you used that choice of words.
'Do not speak with the boys in the school or I was gonna look like a mechanic' <---Jumpsuit
Just goes to show what they know. I happen to like female mechanics. :P
I love how any relationship that had be potential of being something more than platonic (real or simply imagined by staff) was immediately considered "dishonest". No wonder so many of us are fucked up about sex!
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LOL. It is rather ridiculous that after spending three years basically only working on 'guy' issues, I've had some FUCKED up relationships since I've gotten out....
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How exactly is a jumpsuit a punishment unless you're a fashion conscious gulag inmate?
Well, I should keep in mind who I'm asking and in what forum I'm asking that... :rofl:
Is it a run risk thing? I don't get it..
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How exactly is a jumpsuit a punishment unless you're a fashion conscious gulag inmate?
Well, I should keep in mind who I'm asking and in what forum I'm asking that... :rofl:
Is it a run risk thing? I don't get it..
A jumpsuite is a form of fulltime. It isn't necessarily the look that is unappealing (although it is regardless of how 'fashionable' you are or not) But it is the fact that you only get a few of other clothing items to put on under that, i.e. underwear. You also lose all of your stuff and have indefinite work assignments. Although I was never in a jumpsuit, I think I did more fulltimes that I would have had I broken some major agreements.
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The tactic is literally called "mind-stopping" by cult experts, so it's very interesting that you used that choice of words.
My mistake on this. The term, upon further recollection, is "thought-stopping" not "mind-stopping". It's the same thing, and that is what work details are designed to do, I'm just a sucker for semantics.
I've had some FUCKED up relationships since I've gotten out....
Me too. At one point, I just decided "fuck it", and chose to have meaningless, anonymous encounters instead. But now I have my eye on someone I'd like to have something more with, (possibly) and I'm being super careful about it. Doubt anything will come of it, though.
I have to say, my full-time was pretty instrumental in getting the ball rolling regarding guilt about sex, sexuality and gender. It was already headed in that direction, since I had already been there about four months, but that kind of pushed me over the edge. I was made to think I was predatory. That I forced unwilling partners to fool around with me before I got there. Granted, I was certainly manipulative, because that's how horny teens and adolescents are, but I didn't force anyone to do anything. Yet there is still that small bit of doubt in my head. You should see some of the crap I have written in my notebook about this.
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I remember being asked if I "actually like what happened to me" when I spoke of being molested at 11. He was like, "don't most kids mess around by then?" I was floored. For about a half of second, I had to second guess if I was actually molested due to the age I was.....bullshit!
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Boy, what helpful question. Let's take a girl who was violated and imply that perhaps she had something to gain from it. That will help her develop emotionally!
The sad thing is I could see them badgering you until you said yes. That is the type of thing that I saw often at CEDU, and the result is that you internalize more blame, and give up another little piece of yourself.
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I remember being asked if I "actually like what happened to me" when I spoke of being molested at 11. He was like, "don't most kids mess around by then?" I was floored. For about a half of second, I had to second guess if I was actually molested due to the age I was.....bullshit!
Makes me wonder if this guy hadn't done a little molesting himself. "Don't most kids mess around by then?" Maybe with their peers, you fucking lecherous prick.
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It sometimes happens that when a young person is molested, there are mixed feelings. They may have experienced physical pleasure and emotional pain simultaneously, therefore confusing the issue. It's a good direction for genuine therapy, if the client has any confusion.... somehow, knowing the way CEDU works, I feel certain this wasn't the intention.
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It sometimes happens that when a young person is molested, there are mixed feelings. They may have experienced physical pleasure and emotional pain simultaneously, therefore confusing the issue. It's a good direction for genuine therapy, if the client has any confusion.... somehow, knowing the way CEDU works, I feel certain this wasn't the intention.
Since any normal sexual thoughts and feelings were discouraged, that would be impossible.
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I fell in love with someone at CEDU. Everyone said it was just desert island syndrome, but I loved her and she loved me. We didn't wanna sneak around for 16+ months, biding our time till we got out. So we did what we were "supposed" to do. We "cleaned up our attraction" in a rap.
And we were promptly placed on bans. Someone posted in another thread, I believe it was Dom, about how she was just thrown on all guy bans and left on them until all the staff forgot about them 3 or so months down the line, and then immediately thrown back on them. I can atest to that.
But we loved each other so we said fuck CEDU. We'd have people look out for us just so we could sit behind the Quixote Lodge and talk. She'd fake sick so she could spend the night floor in her dorm, and I'd make a covert run from Quixote to Mary Cassat (the dorm on the pond) under darkness.
When we got caught (after 8 months....never write notes), we were crucified. We were lit up in raps, called dirty, deceitful, incapable of being honest, sick. My primary staff told me how disgusted they were with me for lying to them and how sick of a person I was to do such a thing. Raps for the next few weeks focused on staff trying to convince my friends to hate me because I had held the truth from them (when really, I was just a firm believer of AT BCA, THE LESS YOU KNOW ABOUT YOUR FRIENDS, THE BETTER!!).
As a result of a perfectly natural attraction, my graduation was delayed 6 months from August to February, which cost me Fall entrance into a prestigious post-grad school that would've saved the terrible quality of my high school education.
But hey, the staff knew what they were doing, so it's all good, right? They were professionals.
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This is exactly what I mean. CEDU twists normal sexual development by making the normal something that is abnormal, dirty, and shameful. To do so at such a pivotal time in a developing person's life can have far reaching implications on his or her psyche. Meanwhile, the perverse is often glorified, because you win brownie points for confessing.
UGH!
Shanlea
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This is exactly what I mean. CEDU twists normal sexual development by making the normal something that is abnormal, dirty, and shameful. To do so at such a pivotal time in a developing person's life can have far reaching implications on his or her psyche. Meanwhile, the perverse is often glorified, because you win brownie points for confessing.
UGH!
Shanlea
Unfortunately, my perversion was never glorified or encouraged. Yet, in spite of that, I managed to blossom into a beautifully sick and twisted fuck.
I'd love to say that CEDU helped me get my kink on, because that would be royally nasty. However, I think this was a preexisting "condition". I could be wrong, though. It sure felt good crying the first time I was caned. What a fuckin' rush. I'd be willing to bet there was some CEDU in there, needing to be exorcised.