Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: psy on January 01, 2007, 05:40:51 PM
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Hi. I'm a generic parent.
My kid does not have substance abuse problems, but is otherwise causing all kinds of trouble at home. He/she is fucking everything that walks / cutting his/herself. He/she is throwing things around the house, getting kicked out of school, flunking out of courses, otherwise generically raising hell. He/she is depressed also, has ADHD, anxiety, and a host of other things programs promise to fix.
Other than a program... What can i do?
Clarification for moro^H^H^H^H people who don't get the reason i am posting this. The purpose of this thread is to find alternatives to programs. No i am not an actual parent (at least i hope not)
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Generic mocking reply, with situationally-dependent barbed insult.
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Add up the cost of the program you were considering, and average stay. Then write up a contract with the behaviors you would like your kid to follow, and things that the family should work on. Then if the kid follows the contract for the amount of time the program would be, give them the money you would have spent on a program in cash, for whatever they want.
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Hi. I'm a generic parent.
My kid does not have substance abuse problems, but is otherwise causing all kinds of trouble at home. He/she is fucking everything that walks / cutting his/herself. He/she is throwing things around the house, getting kicked out of school, flunking out of courses, otherwise generically raising hell. He/she is depressed also, has ADHD, anxiety, and a host of other things programs promise to fix.
Other than a program... What can i do?
Find out where you went wrong with your child and work your butt off to help your child heal him/herself - you won't be able to go out and socialise, your life will be on hold, but it is your job to see your kid through it, talk to your kid, take your kid out, share their interests, give them the choice to either go wrong or do the right thing, allow their consequences to be theirs and theirs alone - do not bail them out, you love your generic child, but you do not have to like him/her, neither do you have to be punished for their actions
Tough it out, kids don't come with a manual, but as a parent (generic or not) you will know what is required and NOT required of you to deal with this.
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Hi. I'm a generic parent.
My kid does not have substance abuse problems, but is otherwise causing all kinds of trouble at home. He/she is fucking everything that walks / cutting his/herself. He/she is throwing things around the house, getting kicked out of school, flunking out of courses, otherwise generically raising hell. He/she is depressed also, has ADHD, anxiety, and a host of other things programs promise to fix.
Other than a program... What can i do?
I'm going to presume you're not trolling and it's a serious question.
Our foster daughter has some similar issues, which I am not going to list for the sake of her privacy.
What we are doing is taking her to a good psychiatrist to treat mental health issues, and a good therapist to work on day to day behavioral function and coping skills.
We have brought everybody from her bio mom to her adult friends on board to make sure that the rules are the same no matter where she goes. It matters that a kid who's going through a rough time not have a place to get away from reasonable rules. We don't do like the Programs and put stupid rules on just to get her used to knee jerk following of rules.
It's like dealing with a toddler---just like it. Anticipate and outmaneuver.
You figure out the payoff behind the behaviors, and you make sure you keep the bad behaviors from being rewarded. Then reward what you want to see again.
You totally ignore the cutting. Tell him you know cutters do it to release anxiety and if he has to cut, to please clean up after himself. Treat the anxiety and the cutting will eventually go away. Meanwhile, ignore it unless a cut gets infected, then get it treated.
Do Not let cutting be some kind of way for him to tell you when he's upset. Be blithe about it. You don't want to add an extra payoff over and above the anxiety relief.
Ignore the schooling--he's doing it partly to get attention and you don't want to reward it.
Give him attention for good behavior, not bad.
The worst that can happen with the schooling is that it's up to him to take his GED and make up for lost time later. If you're worried about loss of education beyond GED level that's in a high school diploma, by all accounts that happens anyway in a Program. Ignore it, he's old enough that it's his problem, not yours.
Yeah, that's what I said. You have to have healthy boundaries, you have to have healthy patterns of control in your parenting relationship.
That means you have to know and acknowledge what's in his sphere of control and let him control it, and you have to know your sphere of control and not let him control that.
If you try to control his schooling, then it's a battle between you he can try to "win." If you recognize that--at his age--nobody can control whether he learns but him, then you can make schooling outside the realm of parent-teen battles. He can decide whether to be pig ignorant for awhile or not. They're his consequences and you really, truly can't do squat to prevent him from choosing ignorance. So if you don't try, and it's not a battleground between you, that's your best chance of him possibly choosing education over ignorance.
Throwing things is different. If he breaks a lot of stuff around the house, it's vandalism. If he throws stuff at people, it's assault. Criminal stuff? Call the cops. Full stop. Whatever they do to him is more humane than the Program and more effective. Natural life consequences---by which I mean what the adult world would inflict on him if he pulled that crap as an adult--are always preferable to artificial, manufactured consequences.
In other words, if the raising of a kid has already been thoroughly screwed up--by yourself or others, you have to apply, functional, normal, healthy parenting techniques and take whatever improvement that gets you.
If you let your rose bush fall apart with black spot, then once you start with the anti-fungal and proper plant care, it doesn't get better overnight, and it still has a whole lot of damage that doesn't get better for a long time past its next blooming season.
What, you're going to screw up by the numbers in raising the kid and then expect not only a quick fix but for someone else to do your quick fix for you for money?
I feel sorry for the Program survivors, but the parents deserve what they get for being so shallow and stupid as to expect someone else to carry their relationship obligations, for money, and deliver an impossible, unrealistic, overnight fix.
You know those ads that show people having an "easy button"? Program Parents are looking for an easy button and ought to be bumped back to childhood themselves and turned over someone's knee! Is there any better illustration of how the kid got screwed up in the first place than to have parents who flubbed the job then expected someone else to deliver a quick fix for money?
And please, a year or two and all better is expecting a quick fix.
If you've screwed up raising your kid, you get competent, apply normal, healthy parenting techniques, and live with whatever improvement you get. You'll at least get some improvement. Good parenting techniques have been handed down for thousands of years--good parents know what works without going overboard and abusing the kid.
In our case, someone else messed up raising our foster daughter and we're, again, getting what improvement we can.
You work within your own healthy boundaries and take what you can get.
The depression and anxiety are the potentially life-threatening issues. Address those first. As long as you're getting the kid to the psychiatrist to deal with the life threatening part, let the rest hang fire--make it not a battleground between you and hope for the best.
Julie
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Add up the cost of the program you were considering, and average stay. Then write up a contract with the behaviors you would like your kid to follow, and things that the family should work on. Then if the kid follows the contract for the amount of time the program would be, give them the money you would have spent on a program in cash, for whatever they want.
Now there's an idea.
Alternatively you can send your kids to me for half the price of a program. No, seriously. I am the choice of last resort, and I can absolutely guarantee I can take care of your kids full-time for a mere hundred dollars a day. (This is not a joke, actually. I really will do this. A hundred bucks a day to deal with kids almost as nasty as I am beats most other jobs I've had.)
But if you don't trust me, think: If you wouldn't pay me that much money to take care of your kids and keep them out of trouble, why would you pay programmies? They have about the same amount of credentials that I do, and a much larger history of abuse.
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If you didn't like the long version, short version:
Pick the most immediately dangerous issue as your battle.
Call the cops for criminality that threatens your family or home.
Make the other issues not a battleground by ignoring them. If a teen can't fight with you over an issue, after awhile throwing it in your face becomes much less fun.
Emphasize healthy boundaries and recognize where his healthy control begins and yours ends. His "healthy control" can and often will include making self-destructive decisions. He'll get over that faster if you don't make it a tool he can use to tick off his parents.
You can't screw up for fifteen years and fix it all in three. Neither can anybody else.
The anti-fraud experts all say the same thing: If it sounds too good to be true, it is.
Take the real over the gilded lily false promise.
Julie
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Program Parents are looking for an easy button and ought to be bumped back to childhood themselves and turned over someone's knee!
Dark chuckling ensues.
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Call the cops. Full stop. Whatever they do to him is more humane than the Program and more effective. Natural life consequences---by which I mean what the adult world would inflict on him if he pulled that crap as an adult--are always preferable to artificial, manufactured consequences.
Cops + Court = state run program
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Julie- getting your kid into the legal system is the worst thing you can do. We had this discussion on a thread yesterday. It is simply a terrible choice. Anything is preferable to the legal system.
While 15 years of anything can not be undone in one or two, sometimes the teen needs to be kept safe until he or she figures some things out. This is AFTER local psychiatric/psychological care has failed.
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sometimes the teen needs to be kept safe until he or she figures some things out.
So we're agreed, then? You're endorsing my plan?
Excellent!
I hope to see the kids and the money start rolling in any time now.
Remember, folks, a hundred bucks a day and I'll even let you call them when you want.
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Julie. I had a question. I'm not a parent, so I wouldn't know for certain. My initial belief, when a kid goes 5150, was as yours, to call the cops. However, now that courts can and do sentence children to public sector boot camps and other questionable programs (I think Daytop Villiage took kids sentenced from the courts, too), would there possibly be some other way of dealing with this, since this could also potentially put a kid in a program? (Of course, the other option is juvenile hall, and if I had no choice but to pick one of those two, I'd go with juvie.)
Having been in program, i'd have to agree that i would have preferred juvie to what i had to go through.
Look. I believe this industry remains so attractive because of the lack of alternatives, and may parents fear the justice system more than any program (with some reason). Many parents are just not aware of how bad programs are.
Regardless of how bad they are, they will remain the preferable alternative as long as they can't find anything else to do with their kids,
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sorry, psy. I deleted it, when I noticed that other people had already brought up the issue in the thread as I was penning it. It seemed redundant. But I guess it wasn't after all.
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Julie- getting your kid into the legal system is the worst thing you can do. We had this discussion on a thread yesterday. It is simply a terrible choice. Anything is preferable to the legal system.
WWASP even? CEDU clone? locked in a basement? Which is more abusive? Which, including the legal system, would, in your opinion, be most likely to yield the results desired by parents? The kids? You've already heard from two ex-CEDU / CEDU clone students who would have preferred juvie. Can you force somebody to change if they don't want to? Should you?
In programs, parents often have no idea what is done to their kids in order to attain a desired result. What the parents don't know can't hurt them. Do the ends justify the means as long as it changes your child's behavior?
Is coerced change ethical or long lasting?
What in your mind defines unethical coercion?
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Carlbrook was far preferable to the legal system. I am very familiar with the juvie system and facilities- it is not where you EVER want to be.
No, the ends don't justify the means. But you have to look ahead. You think you lose control of your kid when you send them to a program? Try letting them get into the legal system.
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Carlbrook was far preferable to the legal system. I am very familiar with the juvie system and facilities- it is not where you EVER want to be.
No, the ends don't justify the means. But you have to look ahead. You think you lose control of your kid when you send them to a program? Try letting them get into the legal system.
The questions about coerced change?
Forgive my pushing, but what do you feel is coercion? Is it justified to obtain a well behaved (but not truly changed) kid? Is it preferable to address the root of the problem?
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You think you lose control of your kid when you send them to a program?
It really is all about the control for you, isn't it?
How many years on this forum and you've still learned nothing?
Cripes, Exhausted got it in less than a week.
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You think you lose control of your kid when you send them to a program? Try letting them get into the legal system.
On the contrary. I think many parents gain far more control over their kids in program. Does that make it right? Does forcing a kid to behave the right way truly change his attitude, or does it merely force the kid to "act nice" while he is in the house?
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Carlbrook was far preferable to the legal system. I am very familiar with the juvie system and facilities- it is not where you EVER want to be.
I HAVE been. To both a program and through the legal system. Give me the legal system ANY day.
No, the ends don't justify the means. But you have to look ahead. You think you lose control of your kid when you send them to a program? Try letting them get into the legal system.
It ain't as hard as undoing the damage from a program.
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Carlbrook was far preferable to the legal system. I am very familiar with the juvie system and facilities- it is not where you EVER want to be.
I HAVE been. To both a program and through the legal system. Give me the legal system ANY day.
No, the ends don't justify the means. But you have to look ahead. You think you lose control of your kid when you send them to a program? Try letting them get into the legal system.
It ain't as hard as undoing the damage from a program.
So now you've heard from three people who would have preferred the legal system. Are you still so sure program was worth it? Harmless?
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I have been through both too and I think they are equally ridiculous. In california you don't just sit in a cell or something they have outdoor camps and shit just like casa by the sea so it really is no different. Dont fall into the trap of offering parents solutions just beause you know what doesn't work. Because there is a whole other sector of industrialized abuse being done int he name of the state and it doesn't get discussed musch around here.
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I have been through both too and I think they are equally ridiculous. In california you don't just sit in a cell or something they have outdoor camps and shit just like casa by the sea so it really is no different. Dont fall into the trap of offering parents solutions just beause you know what doesn't work. Because there is a whole other sector of industrialized abuse being done int he name of the state and it doesn't get discussed musch around here.
Don't get me wrong. In way am i recommending Juvie or anything like that. I'm asking primarly about at-home solutions such as "Wraparound"-like programs.
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I have been through both too and I think they are equally ridiculous. In california you don't just sit in a cell or something they have outdoor camps and shit just like casa by the sea so it really is no different. Dont fall into the trap of offering parents solutions just beause you know what doesn't work. Because there is a whole other sector of industrialized abuse being done int he name of the state and it doesn't get discussed musch around here.
Yeah, the CYA is pretty brutal.
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I have been through both too and I think they are equally ridiculous. In california you don't just sit in a cell or something they have outdoor camps and shit just like casa by the sea so it really is no different. Dont fall into the trap of offering parents solutions just beause you know what doesn't work. Because there is a whole other sector of industrialized abuse being done int he name of the state and it doesn't get discussed musch around here.
True. I wasn't suggesting either one but at least there's some attempt at regulation and basic human rights in a lot of the state run shitholes. Not that it makes them safe or good by any means, just that I had an easier time dealing with them than with the private kiddie prisons.
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I agree. I felt I had more access to advocates or whatever in public facilities, but really so what. The reality is shit still goes down no matter what. So why would a parent EVER want to bring their kid into that willingly? I have seen both Niles and Julie now suggest calling the cops is a "natural consequence". What if your kid freaks and pulls his cell phone out and the unload their clips into him in his bedroom? Did the parents think of that outcome? Sorry, but that shit really gets to me.
If I was giving advice to parents I would say avoid the justice system as well as private programs offering solutions. It's all poison. Stay as far away from that shit as possible. And if you are forced into it, my god, do not embrace it, fight for you kid, don't take the side of the state and it's "experts" who want to drug up your kid until they are a vegetable.
Parents need to be on the side of THEIR KID. Be aware that when asking for help in dealing with a trouble teen there are countless forces with their own agenda who want to suck you in. Resist it with all your might, help your kid over the hurdle and they will repay you with the best natural consequence of all, love... even if it takes them a while.
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Yeah the legal system can equal state or private run programs like TB and the others. Some Juvis are so bad international human rights groups have spoke out against them. The dangerous thing with programs is the parents that keep their kids there, with the legal system it's the judge that keeps them there. However a kid in juvi has more hope in fighting mistreatment then a kid(with program parent) does fighting a program.
I would suggest if parents need a time out and their kid is hurting themselves or others send them to a hospital psych ward. They can be tested for mental illness, keep safe in a regulated and licensed facility with properly trained doctors/nurses, and offered rEaL TrEatMeNt not forced bullshit.
Psych wards can't and won't promise a 100% problem solved child, but most hospitals won't offer abuse either. Oversight exist in a hospital psych unit, in a Program? nope
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Anyone who suggests parents should call the cops on their own child and that the justice system is "natural consequences" obviously has no personal experience with the justice system. The worst juvie might be better than TB or Casa, but it might be a lot worse than the 'softest' private program.
"Justice" has nothing to do with it and the punishment rarely fits the crime. And in the modern day, where fucking cops are ever-present in every junior high and high school, things that used to be "youthful indiscretions" in my teen years are now felonies with life-altering consequences.
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I think we can all agree that parents need more alternatives and that under no circumstance should they risk sending a kid to a program that lacks licensing, oversight, or properly trained and qualified staff...
The problems with alternatives is that each case is different, in both the kids issue and the parents level of desperation and ignorance. Sad to say the one thing most parents have in common is that a program will seem the most attractive no matter the alternatives. The programs can promise peace in the home, a sure fix, and little action from the parent. Real therapy can't compete with that because it's real therapy, not thought reform.
@TSW, I'll checkout Intermountain Hospital... Thanks for the info
EDIT: Hey TSW, you got a link to any abuse allegations are something I'm only getting links to their site.
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I think we can all agree that parents need more alternatives and that under no circumstance should they risk sending a kid to a program that lacks licensing, oversight, or properly trained and qualified staff...
The problems with alternatives is that each case is different, in both the kids issue and the parents level of desperation and ignorance. Sad to say the one thing most parents have in common is that a program will seem the most attractive no matter the alternatives. The programs can promise peace in the home, a sure fix, and little action from the parent. Real therapy can't compete with that because it's real therapy, not thought reform.
@TSW, I'll checkout Intermountain Hospital... Thanks for the info
"desperation and ignorance" is what makes the big $ for The Industry. I didn't even know about Fornits or ST until after my kid was already marching through the Utah wilderness. I'm damn glad I got educated before we had to decide on the "next steps" before he finished his time there.
I did, however, have some second-hand experience -- a nephew who my sister sent to a mindfuck TBS. When we had exhausted all local alternatives and he still seemed to be on a death spiral, we got desperate enough to send him to wilderness. It was specifically chosen as an alternative to a mindfuck TBS, and as an alternative to all the shitty local options we had tried with no success. With our family's many journeys to the middle of nowhere, it seemed somewhat appropriate. Little did I know at the time that Wilderness & TBS were related. I still don't get that, at all. A wilderness experience should be nothing like a mindfuck TBS experience. Yes, BM techniques can be applied in any setting, but I just don't get the connection, or how it got this way. I have always found the wilderness to be a very cool place, one where you can let go of the stresses of urban life and experience something very different, and I thought my son would draw on happy childhood memories there while he "figured things out." On the other hand, a so-called "school" where you have to work through Levels or points, and can get in trouble for stupid shit like relationships with the opposite sex just doesn't make any sense. Not that the wilderness seems so damn therapeutic, but the TBS model seems really anti-therapeutic.
The other thing is, we weren't expecting any 'quick fix' or any real therapeutic breakthroughs -- more like a starting point. A starting point for what exactly, I don't know. Maybe just a starting point for living as opposed to dying. And a starting point for understanding exactly what was so bad about living that made dying look like a reasonable alternative.
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You get the parents who spend countless hours at work. Their kids are at home doing the latch key kid thing, ignored for the most part, the parents are consumed doing the career thing. Or the parents got divorced and Jr. is bouncing back and forth on visitations. Or the parents are just a couple of fuckwad cokeheads. Or the one of the parents gets their rocks off beating on Jr.
This is the population of kid that tends to clog up the TBS industry.
TSW, you scare me sometimes.
BTW, I think Intermountain Hospital of Idaho was where I was supposed to go if I started acting up on the ride from Spokane to Bonners Ferry.
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Re: Intermountain
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 589#232589 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=232589#232589)
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... ain#232622 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=232622&highlight=intermountain#232622)
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Em, a study showed that children who's parents work and have a good social life actually perform better at school, are more independant and are generally more balanced than those who have stay at home parents (will try to find the study i speak of)
Personally I had to give my job up to work from home because I couldn't trust my boys any more - I didn't want my house burnt down or one of them killing the other.....they are more dependant on me than ever since I have been at home, I think it's made things worse
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There is a study showing families that have dogs instead of cats live much healthier lives.
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There is a study showing families that have dogs instead of cats live much healthier lives.
Screw you, mary. I'm a cat person. :P
Oh wait, I went to a program. hmmmmm...
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I've found in my own experience that parents will let other people do things to their kid they would never do themselves.
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There is a study showing families that have dogs instead of cats live much healthier lives.
Screw you, mary. I'm a cat person. :P
Oh wait, I went to a program. hmmmmm...
I don't think the problem is the program so much as being so gay as far as cats go, girlfriend.
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I've found in my own experience that parents will let other people do things to their kid they would never do themselves.
You apparently have known some pretty fucked up parents. Most of the ones I know are more guilty of the "over-protective mama bear" syndrome, which might help explain how they contribute to their kids growing up to be less than responsible, self-sufficient young adults.
A long list of things comes to mind, but I'll try to be brief: obsession with safety (car seats, bicycle helmets, etc.), panic over minor schoolyard scuffles (OMG a kid at school gave my kid a bloody nose! Where were the adults in charge?), panic at the first sign of sexuality (next thing you know she'll be pregnant!) and panic at the first sign of drug or alcohol use (insanedeadorinjail!!!).
As their kids get older, these same over-protective coddling parents buy them everything they could possibly want, never make them do household chores or get a job or learn the value of a dollar.
These are the kind of upper middle class parents who might be prime targets for a program sales pitch if their kid starts to go south. But I guarantee they're going to need to be heavily conned and lied to about the program, because they're the same kind of parents who will get ready to kick some ass (literally or in court) if someone harms a hair on their kids' head.
Hell, when I was a kid we didn't have car seats or even care about seat belts -- we laid on the deck under the rear window on long trips -- and you would be ostracized as a retard or worse if you got caught wearing a helmet while riding your bike! You mowed lawns for money when you were 12 or 13 (or girls did babysitting), and when you were 14 or 15 you lied about your age to get a real job at a restaurant, gas station or whatever. If you snuck out at 2 a.m. or got caught with a bag of weed or pot plants growing in mom's vegetable garden, you either got your ass kicked or you got grounded for a few weeks. Somehow we survived. And we didn't need no stinking programs -- or over-protective mama bears.
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I've found in my own experience that parents will let other people do things to their kid they would never do themselves.
Yup, including love them.
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I'd wager it's about 20% program parents who are like you explain 70's, the other half just want to get rid of their problem kid. Don't believe me? I wouldn't either (nor would I want to).
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I've found in my own experience that parents will let other people do things to their kid they would never do themselves.
Yup, including love them.
::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke::
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There is a study showing families that have dogs instead of cats live much healthier lives.
Screw you, mary. I'm a cat person. :P
Oh wait, I went to a program. hmmmmm...
I don't think the problem is the program so much as being so gay as far as cats go, girlfriend.
Well, I was inferring that since I came from a cat household instead of a dog one, the family was less healthy, and I thusly ended up in a program. As opposed to the program making me a cat person.
But yes, you're right, being a fag makes me a cat person also, and since one of the possible reasons I was sent to a program was because I was a fag, you can essentially, blame the fucking cat for that, too.
I don't even know what the fuck I'm trying to say anymore, except that somehow, this all goes back to gay cats.
This particular discussion has officially run its course.
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I've found in my own experience that parents will let other people do things to their kid they would never do themselves.
You apparently have known some pretty fucked up parents. Most of the ones I know are more guilty of the "over-protective mama bear" syndrome, which might help explain how they contribute to their kids growing up to be less than responsible, self-sufficient young adults.
A long list of things comes to mind, but I'll try to be brief: obsession with safety (car seats, bicycle helmets, etc.), panic over minor schoolyard scuffles (OMG a kid at school gave my kid a bloody nose! Where were the adults in charge?), panic at the first sign of sexuality (next thing you know she'll be pregnant!) and panic at the first sign of drug or alcohol use (insanedeadorinjail!!!).
As their kids get older, these same over-protective coddling parents buy them everything they could possibly want, never make them do household chores or get a job or learn the value of a dollar.
These are the kind of upper middle class parents who might be prime targets for a program sales pitch if their kid starts to go south. But I guarantee they're going to need to be heavily conned and lied to about the program, because they're the same kind of parents who will get ready to kick some ass (literally or in court) if someone harms a hair on their kids' head.
Hell, when I was a kid we didn't have car seats or even care about seat belts -- we laid on the deck under the rear window on long trips -- and you would be ostracized as a retard or worse if you got caught wearing a helmet while riding your bike! You mowed lawns for money when you were 12 or 13 (or girls did babysitting), and when you were 14 or 15 you lied about your age to get a real job at a restaurant, gas station or whatever. If you snuck out at 2 a.m. or got caught with a bag of weed or pot plants growing in mom's vegetable garden, you either got your ass kicked or you got grounded for a few weeks. Somehow we survived. And we didn't need no stinking programs -- or over-protective mama bears.
So overprotective parents are to blame for programs like WWASPS? :roll: I am not convinced in the slightest.
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I can understand the need for car seats and bike helmets because they actually do save lives. I cant understand the hysteria over minor drug, taking underage drinking or sex.
i think the irony is that older kids would be a lot safer if they were given accurate information abut sexuality and drug taking. Theyd wear the condom, leave the car at home more and in the event of actually beginning to develop a concerning drug habit seek help early.
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Oz Girl I thought you said you've been to the US. Surely you understand how brainwashed most people are. They drug war is not something that the govt imposes on the population without it's consent. Most people still support this stuff. Coastal parents sending their kid into mormon country to get their kid bent back into shape.. lol.
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Well in fairness it does not come up in casual conversation with aquaintances. If you went to another country would you open conversation with one of the friendly and congenial locals by saying something to the effect of
"So If you dont mind me saying so you guys seem pretty upotight about XYZ. Please let me tell you without asking what you personally think why I think these ideas are wrong! And let me just add I think that people who do this are crazy"
i didnt think so either. There is a big difference between an internet forum with random strangers who have come on in the spirit of open debate and being a guest in someones home or country.
Oz girl
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So overprotective parents are to blame for programs like WWASPS? :roll: I am not convinced in the slightest.
Well I don't know what kind of morons send their kids to a WWASPS program, but as for The Programs in general, yes, I think a lot of it is overprotective or at least over-worried parents who fall in the upper middle class income brackets. (sidebar -- I have been told that WWASPS are among the least expensive programs, if that tells you anything).
I hope the Guest was wrong who basically said 20% caring parents and 70% just want to get rid of a problem kid. It's just hard for me to imagine that so many parents are indifferent about their kids.
If you read ST enough (difficult though that may be) I think you will see a pattern of genuinely loving, caring parents who are absolutely clueless about what to do with their 'problem' kids. Many of them even fall in the over-protective mama bear category. Many or most of them were not 'problem' kids when they were teens -- I definitely was, and as karma would have it, my oldest is a chip off the old block -- so they don't even have a frame of reference except the distorted b.s. they get from the media and the War On Drugs hype (a.k.a. the War On Teens). They really do mean well and want what they think is best for their kids, and they definitely don't want to pay someone to do nasty things to their kid that they themselves are unwilling to do.
Notice that ST overall is very anti-WWASPS. That's called "Marketing." Selling upscale "soft" programs to upscale "soft" parents, who only want what's best for their kid and don't have enough street smarts to know when they're being conned.
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Selling upscale "soft" programs to upscale "soft" parents
Most accurate and succinct way I've heard ST described yet. :tup:
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There is a study showing families that have dogs instead of cats live much healthier lives.
Screw you, mary. I'm a cat person. :P
Oh wait, I went to a program. hmmmmm...
I don't think the problem is the program so much as being so gay as far as cats go, girlfriend.
Well, I was inferring that since I came from a cat household instead of a dog one, the family was less healthy, and I thusly ended up in a program. As opposed to the program making me a cat person.
But yes, you're right, being a fag makes me a cat person also, and since one of the possible reasons I was sent to a program was because I was a fag, you can essentially, blame the fucking cat for that, too.
I don't even know what the fuck I'm trying to say anymore, except that somehow, this all goes back to gay cats.
This particular discussion has officially run its course.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Going after WWASPS is like the straw man used by every goddamn program nowadays. They are the easy and largest target. Hey look -- we are better than wwaspies, like that's something to be proud of! :rofl: It's a good scam.
It really is the same ideology just a different level of implementation. In theory wwasps schools should not be as horrible as they are, but it still happens anyways. Maybe its economics. I thought 3-4 granda month per kid was plenty to keep from having to put them in abusive conditions, but aparently not.
Is wwasps really looked down upon within this teen help community? If every family here as rich as karens? I guess I came from more of a regular class family. My dad had to use my college fund savings bond left by my grandparents to pay for the private program and I think he even referred a kid to pay for my last month. And when I got home our house was gone the bank took it. But I was gone anyways so it didn't matter.
Of course I will always have mixed feelings about program parents. Only you guys know in your head what's up and whether you did all you could, etc. I sent letters home and explained it pretty well.. and nothing.. so I have a pretty good idea of what was up.
We were not a perfect family that got duped by a program... this was an end of the road type of thing. Last chance to save our relationship. Instead of was the preverbial stake in the heart.. if youwill.
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I don't doubt that at all. Not saying you should completely quit your job when you have children either. However, what do you expect from children who come up going straight into day care, are given a key to get in the house after school, and have anemically low levels of parental involvement on just about all levels?
Remember.. kids are an open vessel.. they start learning how to behave from the very day they are born. If you are subcontracting their raising during their formative years you completely disregard your parental responsibilities.
The ongoing process of acculturating a child is soley the responsibility of the parents. The parents decide, for the most part, what, who, where, when, and how their child recieves their mental stimuli. Throwing their kid in front of the TV rather than teaching them to read hardly is an appropriate method of parenting. Sending them to a day care rather than teaching Jr. how to shoot a bb gun hardly is an appropriate method of child care.
So no I am not talking about not working all together. I am talking about adjusting your schedule or even your choice of professions so that it allows you the time to spend more time raising your children.
Agreed, when mine were little (babies - toddlers) I worked part time, they went to nursery school as I didn't want them with a child minder, i wanted them in education, fun time, play time from the start, so that's what i did, I'd personally go pick them up and then we'd go swimming or picnicking in the park or something, as they got older, i went into full time work, this did mean they had to let themselves in, I'd put out sandwiches and fruit or crisps for them which meant they had an hour and a half before I came home from work, this was working really well as they did homework, the odds chores that were laying about and quite often they'd get dinner on the go ready for me to finish when I got home, all of a sudden there was a big change and everyone refused to do anything, I'd come home & find the place trashed, the kids out causing trouble on the street etc and so I left my job to work from home, not everyone has that choice - it hasn't made any difference though
I really wish I could poinpoint what exactly happened when everything went tits up - I've done nothing but think on it for about 18 months now and I just can't find one thing or even a combination of things that started this behaviour off except for they all became another year older :-?
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@exhausted, let me tell ya.... Everyone that knows me would have nothing but good things to say about me. I was doing great in till 2001. I've always suffered with Tourette's Syndrome(TS) but it never caused me any serious problems. In 2001 it mutated into a very debilitating form of OCD. What I didn't know at the time was that a serious bout of clinical depression was just around the corner.
Basically I was downhill from that point on. I missed alot of school, couldn't get out of bed.... I basically was a non-functioning human being. The hopelessness of depression allowed me to be very destructive.. self-destructive... By 2002 I was stealing my mom's pain meds, eating aerosol cans like skittles, cutting, thinking suicide, and all of that troubled-teen stuff. I went from normal to fucked up in less then a year and nothing in my environment caused it.
My mom took me to doctors who gave me meds that made things worse,... I'll just say that SSRIs can make a person violent. Anyway, I had to go into a public school "home school" program were I would meet with teachers at the local library because I was to sick to attend regular school. The next school year things started fine but soon went straight to hell. This all came to a climax when my mom mistook my cutting for a suicide attempt(maybe it was a suicide attempt, I'm not really sure) and sent me to the hospital psych ward. I was only there for a day because we both realized that they had no intention of treating me(The Doctor calls my mom, says nothing about me, and ask her about his cell phone bill, she worked for sprint).
I continued in this fucked up state for the rest of high-school(2 more years) and about a year after. Then suddenly in early 05(?) I snapped out of it, I was back to normal... sort of.. I'm still in a low-grade depression most of the time but I can function. I'm not tying to say that your kid/s are mentally ill, but what I am saying is that your kid/s are probably facing something that they can't even identify. That's usually the case when kids change all of a sudden. I've read some of your other post and you sound like my mom, you're sticking with your kid/s no matter what. This worked out great for me and your kid/s will(and probable already do) appreciate it. So trust me those "tits"[/b] will be pointing down in no time ;)
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Hey I'm 40 next month, the tits are already pointing down (it gets us all in the end)
I'm pretty sure the boys are going to turn out okay, a mother's instinct I suppose tells me it's rough ride but it'll be over one day, I just worry so much about the here and now, especially with the 14 year old, it seems like he has the next 2 years to really shape up or he'll be on a road he can't walk back on and i seem to be helpless to do anything about it.....it makes me so sad because I love them with all my heart and don't want to see this path of destruction happen
Maybe you should read this particular post to your mum, she may have something to say on it as she's been there with you, I don't know, but right now I feel helpless and afraid for my family
No tit pics TSW (perve) :P
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Yeah sure, I'll talk with her about it......
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Well you know the old adage, there are no bad kids only bad parents.
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:oops: sorry to dissapoint
get over it :D