Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: psy on December 19, 2006, 06:19:03 PM
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As for Fornits- Psy, you are over here on ST promoting Fornits as a "Second Opinion". Perhaps you should warn these parents how they will be treated over there. Perhaps you should mention that the moderators over there (of which there are many) do everything possible to track down the identity of any parent-posters. They check IP addresses every time you post and compare them to the IP addresses on these posts here on ST. They then look up who has the IP addresses registered. Then they do a Google search on you and print out all of your information, inclcuding addresses and phone numbers, your kids' names and locations. Then they send you harrassing IMs and emails, as well as phone calls. Then they threaten to notify your employer that you are posting during work hours. They they publish disgusting pictures claiming they are of the person they have "outed". Next they make up things such as that your spouse is gay and that your post-program child is a druggie and a flunkie.
You get to have whole threads dedicated just to YOU! Ask Anne from Minnesota and KareninDallas(my former log-in before I had to change it due to Fornits).
This occurs if you challenge their views or try to offer positive feedback on a particular program. It also occurs if you do what I did and drop to their level to fight back.
If you are like Exhausted, and want to get validation from anti-program people, you are welcome on Fornits. You will get lots of strokes. Otherwise, your experience will be exactly like Anne's and mine. It's a shame, because there ARE bad programs and they SHOULD be shut down. NO child should be abused in any way.
Oh- I should mention that if your child has done well in a program and was not abused, this is merely a fiction. The child will eventually realize that he or she was, in fact, abused, but suppressed it to appease the parents so he or she would not be sent away again.
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:o :rofl:
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PSY, guess you know that by now you are BANNED on ST, huh?
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PSY, guess you know that by now you are BANNED on ST, huh?
not yet
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since that is all that seems libelous ...
COULD YOU GUYS SUE HER?
i Can defenitely contribute a few thou to the lega fund
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If you have a few thousand to waste on something like that, don't you have a few thousand to maybe donate to Fornits?
Psy, this is why I said not to bother with that site. The place is a cesspool.
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If you have a few thousand to waste on something like that, don't you have a few thousand to maybe donate to Fornits?
Psy, this is why I said not to bother with that site. The place is a cesspool.
I wish I had a few thousand lying around that i could use for either of those purposes. Instead, i have contributed my time to make a donation graphic in the hopes that others would donate. I have too much school-wise going now for a full time job and must ration the money i have for the rest of the year.
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You guys ought to cut them some slack over there on ST. They have been over there in their cozy cocoon of "Love and Support" so long they have grown unaccustomed to honest feedback - never mind the verbal bitch slappin that is so common 'roun here. This forum has got to be a major shock to their systems.
That being said - they are a sanctimonious lot aren't they?
That being said - if someone really did do all that Karen in Dallas claims - then they did take it to far.
That being said - please, when you talk about this person, be clear it is Karen 'in Dallas' you are talking about.
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From ST-
Psy (Michael)- You are incorrect. I am not going to argue with you about the way I have been treated on Fornits. It is pretty obvious.
However, I will say that there are some extremely knowlegeable regulars on Fornits who, privately, can give some excellent advice on programs which are harmful. It is impossible for a parent to get meaningful information without doing so through private messages, though. I support the goal of the Fornits people who have actual knowledge of programs at which they worked or attended in RECENT YEARS.
I am tired of the anomosity and I am doing what I can to end it. If the goal is to close down abusive, negligently run programs, I support that.
If the goal is to offer a haven for former program kids who are traumatized and need support, I support that.
Let's end the fight, OK Michael? If you think the 99 page thread about me is justified, then fine. But let's just stop the whole thing. What's the point? Why hurt people and their families? Why the ugliness and insults? What does THAT do for your cause?
I apologize if I have offended you, but what I posted above was my view of how I (and other parents) have been treated on Fornits. Perhaps this can change- and should.
Karen
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If you think the 99 page thread about me is justified, then fine.
We all knew you read it, karen-sue. :wink:
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From ST-
Psy (Michael)- You are incorrect. I am not going to argue with you about the way I have been treated on Fornits. It is pretty obvious.
However, I will say that there are some extremely knowlegeable regulars on Fornits who, privately, can give some excellent advice on programs which are harmful. It is impossible for a parent to get meaningful information without doing so through private messages, though. I support the goal of the Fornits people who have actual knowledge of programs at which they worked or attended in RECENT YEARS.
I am tired of the anomosity and I am doing what I can to end it. If the goal is to close down abusive, negligently run programs, I support that.
If the goal is to offer a haven for former program kids who are traumatized and need support, I support that.
Let's end the fight, OK Michael? If you think the 99 page thread about me is justified, then fine. But let's just stop the whole thing. What's the point? Why hurt people and their families? Why the ugliness and insults? What does THAT do for your cause?
I apologize if I have offended you, but what I posted above was my view of how I (and other parents) have been treated on Fornits. Perhaps this can change- and should.
Karen
For once i aggree with you Karen, partially at least. Parents often do get harsh treatment on fornits and i think that does hurt our cause. So yes I accept your offer of peace. i didn't realize we (personally at least) were at war.
For everybody's sake, i hope the flaming of parents over here does stop. But as I explained in my post on ST, free speech is the concern here, and nothing will ever be here done to jeopardize that. As i'm sure exhausted will tell you, sometimes parents have to have pretty thick skin to hang around here, but now she is accepted here.
You have to understand that for survivors of abuse in bad programs parents are often seen as the enemy. If I had not seen the letters from my program to my parents, and how they were conned incessantly, I would probably still resent them for what happened.
Anyhoo,
Peace
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Dunno why this was deleted on ST. but this was the final post on the thread before this post was deleted and the thread closed. this site is a Wayward home for web fora indeed:
As for Fornits- Psy, you are over here on ST promoting Fornits as a "Second Opinion". Perhaps you should warn these parents how they will be treated over there. Perhaps you should mention that the moderators over there (of which there are many) do everything possible to track down the identity of any parent-posters.
Willie...Miss KinD,
No moderators ever ever try to identify posters (with the rare exception of staff in the HLA forum.) Ginger (board owner) would flip her lid if this happened.
Karen, you were outed, not by moderators, but by posters who have learned to recognize your writing style (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=330#120437), and were upset about your abusive treatment of them.
You're so hated over there you have a 99 page thread devoted entirely to you.
They check IP addresses every time you post and compare them to the IP addresses on these posts here on ST.
NO. Moderators did not do this on Fornits. Regular posters outed you (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=120417#120417) by comparing your writing style (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=120352#120352) with your ST posts. (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=120525#120525)
They then look up who has the IP addresses registered.
This is technically impossible. I worked for two years as a systems admin before heading back to college. Doing this would require law enforcement to send a subopoena to your isp. Don't make stuff up Karen.
Then they do a Google search on you and print out all of your information, inclcuding addresses and phone numbers, your kids' names and locations. Then they send you harrassing IMs and emails, as well as phone calls. Then they threaten to notify your employer that you are posting during work hours. They they publish disgusting pictures claiming they are of the person they have "outed". Next they make up things such as that your spouse is gay and that your post-program child is a druggie and a flunkie.
You get to have whole threads dedicated just to YOU! Ask Anne from Minnesota and KareninDallas(my former log-in before I had to change it due to Fornits).
Typical manipulations! You make rediculous accusations without mentioning what you did to provoke such things.
Your name was obtained from your e-mail address on ST (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=11072) (hidden for protection of all on fornits).
This occurs if you challenge their views or try to offer positive feedback on a particular program. It also occurs if you do what I did and drop to their level to fight back.
If you are like Exhausted, and want to get validation from anti-program people, you are welcome on Fornits. You will get lots of strokes. Otherwise, your experience will be exactly like Anne's and mine. It's a shame, because there ARE bad programs and they SHOULD be shut down. NO child should be abused in any way.
Oh- I should mention that if your child has done well in a program and was not abused, this is merely a fiction. The child will eventually realize that he or she was, in fact, abused, but suppressed it to appease the parents so he or she would not be sent away again.
There is a moderated "parent friendly" section of fornits (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?f=52) where parents an ask questions without being verbally abused.
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From ST-
Psy (Michael)- You are incorrect. I am not going to argue with you about the way I have been treated on Fornits. It is pretty obvious.
However, I will say that there are some extremely knowlegeable regulars on Fornits who, privately, can give some excellent advice on programs which are harmful. It is impossible for a parent to get meaningful information without doing so through private messages, though. I support the goal of the Fornits people who have actual knowledge of programs at which they worked or attended in RECENT YEARS.
I am tired of the anomosity and I am doing what I can to end it. If the goal is to close down abusive, negligently run programs, I support that.
If the goal is to offer a haven for former program kids who are traumatized and need support, I support that.
Let's end the fight, OK Michael? If you think the 99 page thread about me is justified, then fine. But let's just stop the whole thing. What's the point? Why hurt people and their families? Why the ugliness and insults? What does THAT do for your cause?
I apologize if I have offended you, but what I posted above was my view of how I (and other parents) have been treated on Fornits. Perhaps this can change- and should.
Karen
Karen your situation is a completely different animal. Some people may have done things to you that I[/i] wouldn't have done (although you've completely exaggerated and outright lied about things that were supposedly done to you) but I can't think of anyone who deserved it more. I've had many productive conversations with people here who thought a helluva lot differently than me. It's impossible to do that with you however because you're the most closed minded, arrogant, sanctimonious, self-righteous bitch I've come across in a long time.
If anyone really, honestly wants to have a civil discussion about any aspect of this industry, speak up. There are people here who, myself include, who would be glad to oblige and it happens all the time. No one ever said Fornits was nice or easy, but it damned sure is invaluable to anyone with an interest in this.
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Dunno why this was deleted on ST. but this was the final post on the thread before this post was deleted and the thread closed. this site is a Wayward home for web fora indeed:
What the hell are you people so afraid of? Why would you delete that? He didn't personally attack anyone. You absolutely refuse to tolerate any viewpoint that is different from your own. How sad for you and unfortunately, your children.
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WillieNelson at ST
"my mum stuck by me all the way...." I guess there are different ways to look at this. My son actually feels that we stuck by HIM, by making the difficult decision to send him to a wilderness program and TBS. We saved his future.
In the case of Exhausted, I don't see it as a case of "sticking by me all the way", but a willingness to put up with whateve her kids want to dish out and a selfish need to have them at home which outweighs the best interest of the kids. This is courage? Uh....
Of course you would see it that way. With you it's all about what your kid owes you, or how he reflects on you. It's about molding him and rewiring him to get on board with what YOU want for his future, not really finding out what he[/i] does. It's about control.
And why the need for the snide little remark at the end..."This is courage? Uh....?"
What a bitch. ::fuckoff::
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See, this is why I hold that even bothering to post publicly on Struggling Tards is a complete waste of time. Hanging around and sending PMs to new registrants to let them know what they're in for before they drink too much Kool-Aid might be a good idea, but posting in public there? You must be kidding. Of course it was deleted. They're programmies. What did you expect?!
outweighs the best interest of the kids.
How in the fuck would she know what the best interest of Exhausted's kids is?
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Don't worry about it, I'm not - even I don't know what's best for my kids, so I'm sure no one else does!
i don't understand this about me and not doing my best for them though, i have repeatedly said here and at ST I am not against programs - I am against child abuse though no matter where it comes from, programs, in the home, at school wherever ...... I just CHOOSE not to send my kids away because I don't think thats the right thing for them, no matter how tempting it may get at times ! All of our own personal situations are different, what may do one kid the world of good can destroy another for life, as we've seen on both forums, in my case I feel it is better to work through this as a family
That's what it's about right? Choice? For both kids and parents alike?
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Don't worry about it, I'm not - even I don't know what's best for my kids, so I'm sure no one else does!
i don't understand this about me and not doing my best for them though, i have repeatedly said here and at ST I am not against programs - I am against child abuse though no matter where it comes from, programs, in the home, at school wherever ...... I just CHOOSE not to send my kids away because I don't think thats the right thing for them, no matter how tempting it may get at times ! All of our own personal situations are different, what may do one kid the world of good can destroy another for life, as we've seen on both forums, in my case I feel it is better to work through this as a family
That's what it's about right? Choice? For both kids and parents alike?
fer sure u dont no whats best fer yer kids, and yer not antiprogram except u'd never send yer kids away, and yer aginst abuse no matter where it comes from, like yer eldest son beating his siblings, so get together and tell all here of the woes pray tell how the younger ones get protected
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They don't, the only protection is me, seeing the authorities are letting us all down left right and center, this isn't through lack of trying, and I don't see how sending them to a program they don't need to be on is going to help - that makes them the victim twice over does it not?
Please feel free to make a better job of it than I can, after all I'm sure you know my situation and family issues better than I do!
Exhausted (not logged in)
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fer sure u dont no whats best fer yer kids, and yer not antiprogram except u'd never send yer kids away, and yer aginst abuse no matter where it comes from, like yer eldest son beating his siblings, so get together and tell all here of the woes pray tell how the younger ones get protected
One more time, in English please. :roll:
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What is this thread about? I've read some of it and can not seem to make much sense out of it at all.. So Karen in Dallas = Willy Nelson? Why the gender shift, etc?
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Fornits on ST: They don't let us speak freely, any specific information (aka talking out of group) is cracked down on, any FACTS are cracked down on, it's just emotional bullshit and support for program parents:
ST on Fornits: THEY MAKE US FEEL BAD ABOUT SENDING OUR KIDS AWAY AND SAY IT DOESNT WORK OMG I CANT HANDLE THIS SOMEONE TELL ME IM A GOOD MOMMY!!!
Did I miss anything yet?
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Just find it strange that most of the posters on ST are parents who have kids who have already "served their time in a program." And these parents continue to post and post and post--and they admit that the PROGRAMS were unsuccesful:
Their kids came home and continued to take drugs, OR were not successful in school, OR wound up unmarried and pregnant. Some of them admit that they kicked-their-own-kids-to-the-curb because their children failed to live up to their EXIT PLANS.
Rarely are their postings from parents on ST who currently have their kids in a program.
It does seem obvious that these old-timers are there to get referrals and to make money....MOSE....WILLIE NELSON (KAREN)...KATSMOM...and crowd.
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Our daughter was accused of being in "collusion" with her mother and resisting treatment. Strange, considering the program kept them apart for four months. She didn't need their bullshit, and she knew it. The kids that "succeed" in these programs know how to work the counselors over. Long-term success is a joke, kids pick up worse habits from their peers than they had going in.
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Hello Psy,
I wanted to let you know why I closed the "Going it alone" thread and deleted your post.
Unlike other forums, this board does use moderation to keep parents safe from negative personal attacks. Your post was taken as a personal attack against one of the parents who posts here. This is not only a threat of safety, it is a direct violation of the agreement you electronically signed to become a registered user.
Furthermore, we do not allow links to other discussion forums on this forum. If parents want to go to the other forums, they are welcome to do so from a search elsewhere on the web.
I will not ban you at this time, but please keep in mind the agreements you made to become a registered user, and stay within the boundaries.
Thanks,
Kristie
Board Administrator
Whoo. Attacking Exhausted is OK (http://http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001312;p=1#000021). Attacking fornits is OK (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=232981#232981). Linking to fornits (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=233024#233024).... Heavens no. Defending fornits... Good god... of course not.
Horse poopie!
FUCK!.. did i just write "poopie"?!?!! EEHK need to stay away from that place for a little.
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Do you remember what your 'personal attack' was, verbatim?
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Do you remember what your 'personal attack' was, verbatim?
http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=233024#233024
it's a "negative" personal attack too :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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LOL.
Someone fucking sticky this shit and fax it to lon, along with a 7 page one letter per page christmas gift :wink:
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Just find it strange that most of the posters on ST are parents who have kids who have already "served their time in a program." And these parents continue to post and post and post--and they admit that the PROGRAMS were unsuccesful:
Their kids came home and continued to take drugs, OR were not successful in school, OR wound up unmarried and pregnant. Some of them admit that they kicked-their-own-kids-to-the-curb because their children failed to live up to their EXIT PLANS.
Rarely are their postings from parents on ST who currently have their kids in a program.
It does seem obvious that these old-timers are there to get referrals and to make money....MOSE....WILLIE NELSON (KAREN)...KATSMOM...and crowd.
nearly everything in the quoted post is backwards
sort of makes you wonder if the poster ever gets much right
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Shit! well i guess i'm just bursting with negativity today. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
From: jena@woodbury.com (http://mailto:jena@woodbury.com); lon@woodbury.com (http://mailto:lon@woodbury.com)
Subject: StrugglingTeens Discussion Moderator Alert
A user (psy at IP 70.174.129.21) has requested that you review the following post by WillieNelson in a forum you moderate:
As for Fornits- Psy, you are over here on ST promoting Fornits as a "Second Opinion". Perhaps you should warn these parents how they will be treated over there. Perhaps you should mention that the moderators over there (of which there are many) do everything possible to track down the identity of any parent-posters. They check IP addresses every time you post and compare them to the IP addresses on these posts here on ST. They then look up who has the IP addresses registered. Then they do a Google search on you and print out all of your information, inclcuding addresses and phone numbers, your kids' names and locations. Then they send you harrassing IMs and emails, as well as phone calls. Then they threaten to notify your employer that you are posting during work hours. They they publish disgusting pictures claiming they are of the person they have "outed". Next they make up things such as that your spouse is gay and that your post-program child is a druggie and a flunkie. You get to have whole threads dedicated just to YOU! Ask Anne from Minnesota and KareninDallas(my former log-in before I had to change it due to Fornits). This occurs if you challenge their views or try to offer positive feedback on a particular program. It also occurs if you do what I did and drop to their level to fight back. If you are like Exhausted, and want to get validation from anti-program people, you are welcome on Fornits. You will get lots of strokes. Otherwise, your experience will be exactly like Anne's and mine. It's a shame, because there ARE bad programs and they SHOULD be shut down. NO child should be abused in any way. Oh- I should mention that if your child has done well in a program and was not abused, this is merely a fiction. The child will eventually realize that he or she was, in fact, abused, but suppressed it to appease the parents so he or she would not be sent away again.
The user's reason for this request is: The information within is libelous. Please edit or delete this post. It is also offensive to me. If you want proof the information is libelous... you deleted it when you deleted my last post.
to which Kristie responded:
Psy,
This to me sounds like Getcha Gotcha? and your epiphany was not ?proof? of anything. This post may be ?offensive? to you, but it is not a personal attack on you, and therefore I see no reason to delete or edit it.
Kristie
PS? you might as her to edit it if you feel so strongly about it? she seems to want to make peace of sorts?
to which i responded:
Very well. I will do that. She and i have been chatting recently and i have no reason to be cross with here. My post was not an attempt to attack her, but rather an attempt to defend Fornits from what I felt were false accusations.
Jena used this rationale when she forbade specific names of programs on Fornits:
"They made outrageous claims which could not be verified, or worse were verified to be totally untrue...The final straw was when a poster made a very serious accusation against a particular program, claiming first hand knowledge of the incident. After it was investigated, the poster admitted to making it up. That's all well and good, but in the meantime, there had been significant damage done to a totally reputable program."
From my perspective, it seems as if false accusations, against programs = bad, false accusations against Fornits = good. Please explain to me why this is, because frankly, it confuses me.
PS... It also seems odd to me that an entire thread of Fornits bashing is allowed on ST if other discussion forums are not allowed to be mentioned.
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a selfish need to have them at home
Wow! How selfish to need to be close to your kids. Anne, know why I'm not rockin out on the bay at your li'll hotel right about now instead of shivering in the frozen north? That's right, cause I'm just that pathologically selfish, that's all! :roll:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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Hmmm...well I can't reply there because the threads locked, as they all seem to be avid readers of the hated Fornites I'l reply here...
ARE YOU READING THIS.....(those who attacked me - ish)
You don't know jack about how my family got into this situation - how dare you presume that it's not difficult to see how.....it is very difficult to see how because I live with it & I don't know at what point it turned this way.
Justification....ok, you want me to justify why I want to keep my boys at home and do my absolute upmost to help them here, amongst their family, friends, school and surroundings that are familiar to them? Out of luck birdy, I don't have to justify a thing to you, I know my kids, you don't
So what if the kid ends up flipping burgers, if they are happy then it makes no difference as to what job they end up in, and any kid who is really bright can go back to school later on when they are secure in themselves as adults, you concentrate on the whole education thing the whole time, it seems that being ablle to tell the neighbours your child is a lawyer/doctor/freakin millionaire is mnore important than their stability ... go ahead, keep your social standing while your kid is being looked after by someone else - evidently that's far more important than seeing your child well adjusted and happy.
So it seems I just let my kids run riot and accept their behaviour without helping them, Holy Moses - you know what? It would be easier of it were true, I wouldn't be on the edge of total breakdown knocking on every door trying to get help, trying to seek answers, trying to find out what exactly it is I have to do to help my kids if I was happy to just let it roll by me in the hope they'll turn out okay, only I know what i go through on a daily basis trying so hard with them, who do you think you are teling me I don't try to help them, when were you last at my house or living my life huh?
I do not 'blow off' their behaviour, i try to deal with it, as a parent it is ME who tries to deal wiht it, my children are not dogs who are going to be sent to obedience classes and come back all house trained and waggy tailed, even if they were, don't you know the owners have to learn how to continue with what the dog has learned?
You are way out of line - I don't criticise parents who have sent their kids away when they've done really dangerous shit, to both themselves and others, to me when a kid gets to that point you have 2 options, try a program when EVERYTHING else has failed or see them go to jail, but sending them away because they are not getting the grades you want, the girlfriend you want, the career path you want is absolutely ludricous - they are not your posessions to mould into mini-you's, they are people who have to make their opwn choices in life and accept there are consequences, both good and bad in every decision that is made
Give me a happy burger flipper anyday over a miserable scarred and hate filled 'mother's pride'
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Well Exhausted. That's one post that's for damn sure to get banned on st. This just about sums it up:
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
I would be more verbose but i'm feeling a bit under the weather.
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Deleted
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Drama queens.
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... I don't know at what point it turned this way.
Justification....ok, you want me to justify why I want to keep my boys at home and do my absolute upmost to help them here, amongst their family, friends, school and surroundings that are familiar to them? Out of luck birdy, I don't have to justify a thing to you, I know my kids, you don't
So what if the kid ends up flipping burgers, if they are happy then it makes no difference as to what job they end up in, and any kid who is really bright can go back to school later on when they are secure in themselves as adults, you concentrate on the whole education thing the whole time, it seems that being ablle to tell the neighbours your child is a lawyer/doctor/freakin millionaire is mnore important than their stability ... go ahead, keep your social standing while your kid is being looked after by someone else - evidently that's far more important than seeing your child well adjusted and happy.
So it seems I just let my kids run riot and accept their behaviour without helping them, Holy Moses - you know what? It would be easier of it were true, I wouldn't be on the edge of total breakdown knocking on every door trying to get help, trying to seek answers, trying to find out what exactly it is I have to do to help my kids if I was happy to just let it roll by me in the hope they'll turn out okay, only I know what i go through on a daily basis trying so hard with them, who do you think you are teling me I don't try to help them, when were you last at my house or living my life huh?
I do not 'blow off' their behaviour, i try to deal with it, as a parent it is ME who tries to deal wiht it, my children are not dogs who are going to be sent to obedience classes and come back all house trained and waggy tailed, even if they were, don't you know the owners have to learn how to continue with what the dog has learned?
You are way out of line - I don't criticise parents who have sent their kids away when they've done really dangerous shit, to both themselves and others, to me when a kid gets to that point you have 2 options, try a program when EVERYTHING else has failed or see them go to jail, but sending them away because they are not getting the grades you want, the girlfriend you want, the career path you want is absolutely ludricous - they are not your posessions to mould into mini-you's, they are people who have to make their opwn choices in life and accept there are consequences, both good and bad in every decision that is made
Give me a happy burger flipper anyday over a miserable scarred and hate filled 'mother's pride'
STILL, your kids are clearly not "well adjusted and happy"! Is that out of luck birdy? Or is that something else?
I have met many many parents who have "sent their kids away", and not one did it because the kid wasn't getting the grades, girfirend, boyfriend, or career path the parent wanted.
Right now, the second best thing for your kids and for yourself would be for you all to go away for a week or so - separately. You all need a break from current behaviors and patterns. perhaps the kids could go camping. perhaps you could go to a warm beach.
Take a break!!!!
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Pretty much Mighty Aaardvark, reading between the lines it seems I should be justifying why I wont send my kids to a program - don't get me wrong, I'm open minded enough to know that I could send them and it could be the best thing ever that happened to them, I'm just not prepared to take that risk at this stage.......I feel we as a family can work through this
Guest you are right, we do need a break from each other, the kids may appreciate me more and I would possibly come back to tackle our problems with fresh eyes and a more alert mind
You are also correct that my kids are not well adjusted and are certainly not happy, which is why I'm working really hard to help them break the mould of this current behaviour pattern, they are really unhappy at who they are, they need me, their mum to help them find themselves as people,to find what makes them happy, self esteem is a major issue, imagine telling your skanky 'mates' you don't want to commit a crime or make someone else's life miserable, the horror! Can you imagine being called a chicken or a grass??? I know, stupid isn't it? It's really that simple, simple when you look at it from an adult perspective - not quite so when you are 13 & 14 yr old boys, they don't know how to break the mould, they are afraid of breaking the mould, to them it's terrifying!! So it's up to me to help them .... I simply cannot see how a program can do this.
So for now I am not concentrating on their stupid school grades, I am not worrying about what they'll do for a living, I am worrying about giving them the opportunity to stay out of jail, away from drugs and a life of crime, right now, this is the most important thing to me - we as a family must pull together and work on this constantly, I am seeing little changes here & there, that mould isn't broken - but the cracks are appearing
If you read through some of the posts you will see people are worrying about their kids grades, their choice of boyfriend/girlfriend.....wasn't one lad sent away because he changed his girlfriend and didn't want to be a doctor, I mean c'mon!! So what??????
But to be fair I've had a lot of support form various ST posters, they have been really good and insightful, I've seen light at the end of the tunnel through some of them.....hoever, if I don't agree with something I say so, I won't fall in with what everyone else wants me to, you tell me your kid is taking drugs and is killing himself, mugging ppl for the fix, then i'd tell you I think you're doing the right thing sending him to a hospital or program, I won't agree it's the right thing to do if he/she is being a sulk off teenager and totally disrespectful, it's not on, I wouldn't suggest putting up with it, but sending them away for it, no.....
So - don't turn on me because I am trying to get insight from both parties, parents, kids, ex program parenst, ex program kids, I need to know the WHOLE picture before I take further steps, after all i am deciding my child's future well being ultimately.
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Do you have the financial resources to afford a program in the US? That would have been a minimum of five grand a month. If you have that available then I'm sure there are all sorts of solutions. Do you have that kind of money available, because medical insurance never would have paid for a program in the states. You would have been looking at fifty grand easy for a year's treatment.
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Program parents are proxy child abusers. If I paid someone to kill an associate of mine, I would be charged with murder. Why then when a parent pays a huge sum of money to someone to hurt their child, emotionally and physically, suddenly the pity party begins and they are the victims? Don't fall for their bullshit. They hurt kids, and build financial empires while doing so. All the while believing they are societies chosen few, to clean up the rest of us scum. Struggling Teens is an infectious, disease like plague of a forum that spreads it's death spores on anyone who listens. Fuck 'em all to hell.
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Do you have the financial resources to afford a program in the US? That would have been a minimum of five grand a month. If you have that available then I'm sure there are all sorts of solutions. Do you have that kind of money available, because medical insurance never would have paid for a program in the states. You would have been looking at fifty grand easy for a year's treatment.
No i don't have that sort of money, it'd be better spent on affording a private specialist here in the UK .... i just couldn't send my kids away to another country knowing i wouldn't get to see them when they needed me to - there is no way on this earth I'd sleep at night not knowing how they're doing, how they feel, what's happening in their daily lives .... I know I've been called selfish in my need to have them home with me, maybe it is selfish i don't know, what i do know is that they need me more than ever throguh turbulent times and I feel I am unselfish enough to put up with the crap they give me to see them through this, and hopefully come out the other side.....it's a gamble, but so is sending them away, no one can know the outcome either way, only time will tell.
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Selfish, according to karenindallas. That biatch is crazy. It takes crazy to know crazy, and she takes the cake. Maybe it was good her kids got away, who knows.
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I can smell her from here. Phew! :rofl:
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What you smell is that pile of shit that you're sitting in.
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What I smell is a cunt that needs a good douche. Like you, for instance. :rofl:
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it's really hard folowing conversations between loads of people called 'guest' can't you get a username or something?
Anyway guys & girls, all this nastiness isn't getting to the root of the cause is it? This is not a constructive converstaion, it doesn't help kids who are in abusive programs and it doesn't help parents make choices, it doesn't help anyone seek out the programs that may well be a life saver for certain kids and weed out those who'll end up traumatising the children for life
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Exhausted, you are not going to find any "life saving program" here. Guess you better kiss-and-make-up with your ST parents!
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it's really hard folowing conversations between loads of people called 'guest' can't you get a username or something?
Anyway guys & girls, all this nastiness isn't getting to the root of the cause is it? This is not a constructive converstaion, it doesn't help kids who are in abusive programs and it doesn't help parents make choices, it doesn't help anyone seek out the programs that may well be a life saver for certain kids and weed out those who'll end up traumatising the children for life
The problem is a "program" is intrinsically... not therapeutic!
A "program" is an institution that holds captive, isolates, and instigates coersive behavior modification, usually through psycho-bullshit like you're all too familiar with now.
ACTUALY THERAPY is... ACTUAL therapy! You can't coerse it!
I do agree that a real, non-coersive "therapeutic community" might be a good idea, but I have yet to see one!
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a selfish need to have them at home
Wow! How selfish to need to be close to your kids. Anne, know why I'm not rockin out on the bay at your li'll hotel right about now instead of shivering in the frozen north? That's right, cause I'm just that pathologically selfish, that's all! :roll:
Ya might want to go back and re-read that. I did not write that and how you could even entertain the notion that I did is beyond me. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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it's really hard folowing conversations between loads of people called 'guest' can't you get a username or something?
Anyway guys & girls, all this nastiness isn't getting to the root of the cause is it? This is not a constructive converstaion, it doesn't help kids who are in abusive programs and it doesn't help parents make choices, it doesn't help anyone seek out the programs that may well be a life saver for certain kids and weed out those who'll end up traumatising the children for life
The problem is a "program" is intrinsically... not therapeutic!
A "program" is an institution that holds captive, isolates, and instigates coersive behavior modification, usually through psycho-bullshit like you're all too familiar with now.
ACTUALY THERAPY is... ACTUAL therapy! You can't coerse it!
I do agree that a real, non-coersive "therapeutic community" might be a good idea, but I have yet to see one!
not knowing what you call a "program" vs. a residential therapeutic enviornment, or what would be therapy to you at all, it isn't easy to counter. Pray tell, what is therapy ... to you???
Life is full of coersive things. Get a drivers license or face posible fines. Register your car or face fines or impound. Give your kids a state-standard education of be subject to child abuse penalties. Work hard and well and get the legal means for a nice new car and fancy dinners, otherwise eat what you get at a shelter.
The concept of child suggests guidance/direction from parents etc is in order so they can learn generally accepted standards. Parents have a duty to impart those things. The concept of adult suggests maturity of independent judgment. Laws set the split between child and adult usually around 18 - 21, but there really is no magic "click".
Doesn't someone who has legal right to a home and shares that with another has the right to "demand" certain conduct in order to let that other person continue to reap the benefits of occupancy?? With kids, those "benefits" include food, clothes, etc. Are such "demands" as to conduct as a condition of continuing to get residency etc a coercive practice? Or are parents required to accept/allow whatever their kid does indefinitely without consequence? Are the parents obligated to provide the same benefits regardless of behavior or be deemed coercive?
Somewhere along the line, parents are morally and legally obligated to provide certain things for their kids, whether or not the kids ask for them. Parents are at least morally obligated to guide behavior, and often are legally responsible if the behavior doesn't conform to established standards.
So, if the kids behavior is not conforming to established standards, aren't the parents legally (forget morally for the moment) required to get that behavior to become modified? Or does that become the awful "behavior modification" to be avoided?
When the kid doesn't substantially conform to legal standards of conduct, what should a parent do - or not do - to meet their legal obligation? ...their moral obligation?
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a selfish need to have them at home
Wow! How selfish to need to be close to your kids. Anne, know why I'm not rockin out on the bay at your li'll hotel right about now instead of shivering in the frozen north? That's right, cause I'm just that pathologically selfish, that's all! :roll:
Ya might want to go back and re-read that. I did not write that and how you could even entertain the notion that I did is beyond me. :roll: :roll: :roll:
The more I think about this, the more it pisses me off. You really, honestly thought even for a second that I think that way? Wow, you really don't know me at all. At all.
Oh and btw....take your snide little remark about my boat and the offer and stick it up your ass.
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Fornits sure has been crazy past week or so. Can't wait to see what the new year brings!
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I can smell her from here. Phew! :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha2:: :nworthy: :tup:
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I was reading these posts. It reminded me of what my son said to a parent that stayed at our resort. She was in Jamaica touring the school. My son's first reaction was dont send him there. Then she told us her story of her son. He looked at me and said "i cant believe that was me once" Then he told her to send him to TB but just for a few months. Not any longer and dont by into the seminars.
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What I smell is a cunt that needs a good douche. Like you, for instance. :rofl:
::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha2:: :rofl: ::nod:: :wave: :rofl:
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Most of what my son has told me happened to other boys. Staff hit a boy in the face with a radio and slammed his head on the concrete. Now that boy has plates in his cheek and jaw. My son was trying to be forced into the bathroom where there are no cameras but instead he fought. The staff then punched him in the stomach on camera. He never saw that staff member again. He was severely infected from sand fleas. No treatment.
He looked at me and said "i cant believe that was me once" Then he told her to send him to TB but just for a few months.
::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke::
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Hey, I remember some fucker like that. He knew how bad a certain place was (don't even waste your time trying to figure it out), and he still said we deserved it because of our previous behaviors.
I painted the wall with his brains. First asshole I ever killed. Still chuckle thinking about it. :)
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Most of what my son has told me happened to other boys. Staff hit a boy in the face with a radio and slammed his head on the concrete. Now that boy has plates in his cheek and jaw. My son was trying to be forced into the bathroom where there are no cameras but instead he fought. The staff then punched him in the stomach on camera. He never saw that staff member again. He was severely infected from sand fleas. No treatment.
on camera? who exactly is reviewing the cameras, shouldn't you be in contact with them or something? there was a boy beaten to death in florida on tape and because of that tape they are on trial for manslaughter now. I didn't know wwasps had cameras, who watches the tapes? they assauled your son and torture other kids. are there authorities in jamaica to be contacted?
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a selfish need to have them at home
Wow! How selfish to need to be close to your kids. Anne, know why I'm not rockin out on the bay at your li'll hotel right about now instead of shivering in the frozen north? That's right, cause I'm just that pathologically selfish, that's all! :roll:
Ya might want to go back and re-read that. I did not write that and how you could even entertain the notion that I did is beyond me. :roll: :roll: :roll:
The more I think about this, the more it pisses me off. You really, honestly thought even for a second that I think that way? Wow, you really don't know me at all. At all.
Oh and btw....take your snide little remark about my boat and the offer and stick it up your ass.
Don't sweat it Anne, it was a misquote, we know WilieNelson said this and not you :wink:
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never lashed out at society either.
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I didn't lash out at society. society lashed out at me.
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I am society.
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Society is a hole.
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Don't sweat it Anne, it was a misquote, we know WilieNelson said this and not you :wink:
Thanks Ex, I appreciate that. As anyone who has been reading my posts even for just the past few weeks knows, that's not a philosophy I subscribe to in the least. Cassandra is a friend of mine and has been for a few years. For her to even think that I would have written that or think that way, and her shitty little remarks about my offer for her to stay with me if she wanted to come down says a lot about what I thought was a good friendship.
That's the last I'll say about this issue as it's personal and doesn't concern this topic, but that really pissed me off.
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Ex- you seem to be putting words in people's mouths. No one called you selfish. Hmmm- feeling that way perhaps?
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Karen Edited the offending post on ST, apologized to a whole bunch of people privately (about her role in the escalation of things), and posted this on ST:
I want to take this opportunity to wish all of you a happy and safe holiday, whether or not your families are together.
Going forward, I would like to work towards ending the animosity between our parents' forum and the Fornits forum. Perhaps Henry Kissinger would be willing to help us reach a common ground. [Smile]
I apologize to everyone-both on Fornits and here-for my role in the nasty threads on both forums. I believe there are many posters on Fornits with in-depth knowledge about specific programs. This has been gained either from working at the programs or from attending them. For now, it might be necessary to use Private Messaging on Fornits if you want information, because parent inquiries are still met with some skepticism and disdain. We, in turn, have been guilty of having the same attitude over here towards some of the program opponents.
Everyone's goal is the same- to find solutions for the troubles that confront our families and our teens. Residential placement is a LAST resort and NO program should be permitted to enroll teens if there is any abuse- physical or emotional. Many of us on this forum believe that there are, in fact, reputable and effective programs. Most of the Fornits posters believe that ALL teen help programs are inherently defective because there is no proven therapeutic value and there is no licensing oversight. I am willing to keep an open mind and be educated by both forums.
Where I reach a roadblock is when I look for alternatives. I honestly feel that I had NO alternative to the course we took with our son. We had tried everything before we resorted to wilderness. I welcome input from all concerned as to what could be presented to families in crisis as alternatives to residential programs.
I feel that there is too much anger and conflict in the world, and this is a step I want to take to try to eliminate some of it .
Peace and best wishes to all.
Karen
I actually think she should be given a second chance. I have recommended she register a username and come back and post in a little while after the hostilities have subsided. I told her it might be hard for others to believe she is sincere but let's give her the benefit of the doubt. We all know how stubborn some parents can be.
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not knowing what you call a "program" vs. a residential therapeutic enviornment, or what would be therapy to you at all, it isn't easy to counter. Pray tell, what is therapy ... to you???
Therapy can only be provided by licensed Psychologists / psychiatrists. Otherwise, it is "emotional growth" which tends to be anything but. See below:
Life is full of coersive things. Get a drivers license or face posible fines. Register your car or face fines or impound. Give your kids a state-standard education of be subject to child abuse penalties. Work hard and well and get the legal means for a nice new car and fancy dinners, otherwise eat what you get at a shelter.
I don't think the DMV uses lifespring / est / raps. That is what people are referring to as "coercive".
The concept of child suggests guidance/direction from parents etc is in order so they can learn generally accepted standards. Parents have a duty to impart those things. The concept of adult suggests maturity of independent judgment. Laws set the split between child and adult usually around 18 - 21, but there really is no magic "click".
Doesn't someone who has legal right to a home and shares that with another has the right to "demand" certain conduct in order to let that other person continue to reap the benefits of occupancy??
Within reason
With kids, those "benefits" include food, clothes, etc. Are such "demands" as to conduct as a condition of continuing to get residency etc a coercive practice?
It depends on the demands.
Or are parents required to accept/allow whatever their kid does indefinitely without consequence? Are the parents obligated to provide the same benefits regardless of behavior or be deemed coercive? Somewhere along the line, parents are morally and legally obligated to provide certain things for their kids, whether or not the kids ask for them. Parents are at least morally obligated to guide behavior, and often are legally responsible if the behavior doesn't conform to established standards.
This is true. However parents are not only responsable for this. If a child in program accuses the place of abuse, and the parent, on programs request, dismisses the accusations as "manipulations", the parent is liable if the child is found to be telling the truth.
So, if the kids behavior is not conforming to established standards, aren't the parents legally (forget morally for the moment) required to get that behavior to become modified? Or does that become the awful "behavior modification" to be avoided?
Modifying behavior does not equal "behavior modification". The behavior modification techniques practiced by many programs (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2004/4/sixties0404.html)( lifespring (http://http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html), est (http://http://www.rickross.com/groups/est.html), other LGAT techniques, confrontational therapy derived from Synanon (http://http://www.rickross.com/groups/synanon.html)), often by unqualified/licenced staff, are not what psychologists would define as "behavior modification". On the contrary, they would likely define it as abusive (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html#The%20Continuum%20of%20Influence:%20A%20Proposal) if not highly unethical. Parents do NOT have a right to do that, or have it done to their children. Parents are NOT permitted to modify their child's behavior by any means necessary; however more often than not they are not aware it happens. How many parents are full aware of the details of what happens in programs?
And this is just regarding emotional abuse. Do you think WWASP style (dog cages etc...) discipline is ok? It may modify behavior, but at a cost only paid by the child.
More info on LGAT techniques. (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html#Large-Group%20Awareness%20Training) - Source: APA
When the kid doesn't substantially conform to legal standards of conduct, what should a parent do - or not do - to meet their legal obligation? ...their moral obligation?
Buy a parenting book? Talk to a psychologist? Group therapy? Wrap-around (in home) programs? 30 day treatment/detox centers? Let it pass?
Practically any option is better than sending your kid into an industry that is completely unregulated, and recommended by another completely unregulated industry (educational consultants).
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Karen Edited the offending post on ST, apologized to a whole bunch of people privately (about her role in the escalation of things), and posted this on ST:
I want to take this opportunity to wish all of you a happy and safe holiday, whether or not your families are together.
Going forward, I would like to work towards ending the animosity between our parents' forum and the Fornits forum. Perhaps Henry Kissinger would be willing to help us reach a common ground. [Smile]
I apologize to everyone-both on Fornits and here-for my role in the nasty threads on both forums. I believe there are many posters on Fornits with in-depth knowledge about specific programs. This has been gained either from working at the programs or from attending them. For now, it might be necessary to use Private Messaging on Fornits if you want information, because parent inquiries are still met with some skepticism and disdain. We, in turn, have been guilty of having the same attitude over here towards some of the program opponents.
Everyone's goal is the same- to find solutions for the troubles that confront our families and our teens. Residential placement is a LAST resort and NO program should be permitted to enroll teens if there is any abuse- physical or emotional. Many of us on this forum believe that there are, in fact, reputable and effective programs. Most of the Fornits posters believe that ALL teen help programs are inherently defective because there is no proven therapeutic value and there is no licensing oversight. I am willing to keep an open mind and be educated by both forums.
Where I reach a roadblock is when I look for alternatives. I honestly feel that I had NO alternative to the course we took with our son. We had tried everything before we resorted to wilderness. I welcome input from all concerned as to what could be presented to families in crisis as alternatives to residential programs.
I feel that there is too much anger and conflict in the world, and this is a step I want to take to try to eliminate some of it .
Peace and best wishes to all.
Karen
I actually think she should be given a second chance. I have recommended she register a username and come back and post in a little while after the hostilities have subsided. I told her it might be hard for others to believe she is sincere but let's give her the benefit of the doubt. We all know how stubborn some parents can be.
FWIW, she took the initiative to reach out and settle things (uncomfortably eating a lot of crow along the way- humbly). She did this privately with a bunch of folks. We've been talking a little bit privately and have ironed things out. It's the holiday season after all, so try to give it a go...
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Karen Edited the offending post on ST, apologized to a whole bunch of people privately (about her role in the escalation of things), and posted this on ST:
I want to take this opportunity to wish all of you a happy and safe holiday, whether or not your families are together.
Going forward, I would like to work towards ending the animosity between our parents' forum and the Fornits forum. Perhaps Henry Kissinger would be willing to help us reach a common ground. [Smile]
I apologize to everyone-both on Fornits and here-for my role in the nasty threads on both forums. I believe there are many posters on Fornits with in-depth knowledge about specific programs. This has been gained either from working at the programs or from attending them. For now, it might be necessary to use Private Messaging on Fornits if you want information, because parent inquiries are still met with some skepticism and disdain. We, in turn, have been guilty of having the same attitude over here towards some of the program opponents.
Everyone's goal is the same- to find solutions for the troubles that confront our families and our teens. Residential placement is a LAST resort and NO program should be permitted to enroll teens if there is any abuse- physical or emotional. Many of us on this forum believe that there are, in fact, reputable and effective programs. Most of the Fornits posters believe that ALL teen help programs are inherently defective because there is no proven therapeutic value and there is no licensing oversight. I am willing to keep an open mind and be educated by both forums.
Where I reach a roadblock is when I look for alternatives. I honestly feel that I had NO alternative to the course we took with our son. We had tried everything before we resorted to wilderness. I welcome input from all concerned as to what could be presented to families in crisis as alternatives to residential programs.
I feel that there is too much anger and conflict in the world, and this is a step I want to take to try to eliminate some of it .
Peace and best wishes to all.
Karen
I actually think she should be given a second chance. I have recommended she register a username and come back and post in a little while after the hostilities have subsided. I told her it might be hard for others to believe she is sincere but let's give her the benefit of the doubt. We all know how stubborn some parents can be.
FWIW, she took the initiative to reach out and settle things (uncomfortably eating a lot of crow along the way- humbly). She did this privately with a bunch of folks. We've been talking a little bit privately and have ironed things out. It's the holiday season after all, so try to give it a go...
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Well then -- truce, it is.
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Thanks, Guys. My registered name is Charly.
Appreciate the posts.
Karen- no longer in Dallas
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Well then -- truce, it is.
yeah but you ain't karen. would the real Karen Austin Please stand up?
Ok well if you are which i highly doubt. what was the subject line of the most recent e-mail you sent me?
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yeah but you ain't karen.
Duh! :rofl:
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I am the real Karen.
Psy- "Teens/Parents Saga" or something to that effect was the subject line of our recent emails.
Merry Christmas all.
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I am the real Karen.
Psy- "Teens/Parents Saga" or something to that effect was the subject line of our recent emails.
Merry Christmas all.
Actually that was the second to last. But you couldn't have guessed that so i guess you're really Karen.
Merry Christmas to you too ::birthday::
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I'm willing to give it a shot myself.
Just a few points:
1) the proof shall be in the pudding...
2) one person being pissy doesn't ultimately matter in the end, anyway - what will happen is going to happen, ruffling our feathers or not. No offence, Karen :lol:
3) most likely karen is just as screwed up by now as everyone else here (and on ST...) being up to their eyeballs in this filth we've taken upon ourselves to shoulder the weight of. Guilt and a conscience are not fun things to have.
Too bad the people who most need them don't have them.
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Psy,
Absent a response from Nihilantic, whose answer may differ, I note the following:
1-Therapy, apart from physical therapy, massage therapy, etc, is often proved by (licensed) social workers. It also is provided in different form by environment, though that may be stretching things farther than necessary.
2-So, if its not "lifespring / est / raps", its not coercive??? Mop the floor or I'll beat the ___ out of you wouldn't be coercion? Or is that what lifespring does?
3- You said "If a child in program accuses the place of abuse, and the parent, on programs request, dismisses the accusations as "manipulations", the parent is liable if the child is found to be telling the truth." Legally liable? On what premise? Or morally responsible for something? And in the case of the "boy who called wolf"?
4- "Modifying behavior does not equal "behavior modification"." Now you got me! And, dog cages are beyond abusive. But what are acceptable ways to get behavior to change in a desired way?
5- "Buy a parenting book?" Which one? What parts are good? For what problem?
"Talk to a psychologist?" Been there, done that! More than one.
"Group therapy?" What group? Where? Actually, not so easily found.
"Wrap-around (in home) programs?" For what? How established?
"30 day treatment/detox centers?" Generally not lastingly effective the first time through, but yes, a good choice if drug abuse is the only issue. Even worth trying a second or third time IF drugs are the only issue. But if it is more than drugs??
"Let it pass?" But too often, "it" doesn't -- it worsens.
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Psy,
Absent a response from Nihilantic, whose answer may differ, I note the following:
1-Therapy, apart from physical therapy, massage therapy, etc, is often proved by (licensed) social workers. It also is provided in different form by environment, though that may be stretching things farther than necessary.
2-So, if its not "lifespring / est / raps", its not coercive??? Mop the floor or I'll beat the ___ out of you wouldn't be coercion? Or is that what lifespring does?
Read the links. The "mop the floor" would be direct coercion via threat of violence. Lifespring and est would be indirect methods. (again, read the friggin APA paper)
3- You said "If a child in program accuses the place of abuse, and the parent, on programs request, dismisses the accusations as "manipulations", the parent is liable if the child is found to be telling the truth." Legally liable? On what premise? Or morally responsible for something? And in the case of the "boy who called wolf"?
There have been cases of kids suing their parents over program treatment (and winning). I'm going to look up examples in a sec and post em here.
In no case should an accusation of abuse be ignored. You think programs don't know whose side parents are likely to take in a dispute? This gives them free reign to do whatever they please without fear of consequences. They know that teenagers likely have lied to their parents, and they tell the parents in advance: "your kid will say anything to get out"... That is proper program CYA(cover your ass) procedure.
"The boy who called wolf"..."The girl who cried rape"...
Need I mention what happend to the boy who cried wolf?
One day, the kid tells the truth about abuse, the parent ignores it repeatedly, and he learns to keep silent. He learns to suffer in silence. He learns even god has turned his back on him. He loses hope, he breaks, and he never trusts anybody again, most certainly not his parents. This happens. Not in all cases, but it happens a lot. (in my opinion, more often than not)
4- "Modifying behavior does not equal "behavior modification"." Now you got me! And, dog cages are beyond abusive. But what are acceptable ways to get behavior to change in a desired way?
read the link here. (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html#The%20Continuum%20of%20Influence:%20A%20Proposal) (i already linked to it last post)
See "Figure 1"
That will answer your question.
5- "Buy a parenting book?" Which one? What parts are good? For what problem?
"Talk to a psychologist?" Been there, done that! More than one.
"Group therapy?" What group? Where? Actually, not so easily found.
I was referring mainly to family therapy. Often problems stem from a combination of issues in both the kid and the parents. Only a licensed neutral moderator can effectively spot the problems and give advice.
"Wrap-around (in home) programs?" For what? How established?
here you go (http://http://www.rtc.pdx.edu/nwi/)
"30 day treatment/detox centers?" Generally not lastingly effective the first time through,
afaik, better results than programs... but it's impossible to truly know given that the industry is not regulated and there have been no comprehensive third party studies on the effectiveness of programs.
but yes, a good choice if drug abuse is the only issue. Even worth trying a second or third time IF drugs are the only issue. But if it is more than drugs??
Therapy, therapy, therapy. Worked for me when I was acting out at the age of 13. One shrink finally tried Prozac, and it worked. I had tantrums... for lack of a better word, and they stopped on medication.
"Let it pass?" But too often, "it" doesn't -- it worsens.
But it doesn't always and children should not be punished for "future crime" by fearful parents, egged on by an industry that profits from institution regardless of need. Just ask exhausted about her experience with Aspen. They admitted her son over email. Psych evals? none. And they keep spamming her. Are these examples of reputable programs?
Only psychologists can properly evaluate the mental condition of a child, and often their opinions differ vastly. Second and third opinions are necessary in these cases.
I was off the friggin walls when i was 13, doing all kinds of crazy shit. For me, it was just a case of depression needing medication. Only a psychologist could have figured that out. An educational consultant, would have referred to a program which would likely have failed miserably given that the problem was biochemical in nature.
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Ex- you seem to be putting words in people's mouths. No one called you selfish. Hmmm- feeling that way perhaps?
lol no, I know I am doing everything I can for my kids, you might want to go back and re read the thread before happily typing away without getting the facts straight, I didn't say anything about it, it was a misquote by Cassandra
Anne don't get pissed about it,I really I wasn't offended by it which is why I ignored it in the first place, I'm sure cassandra didn't mean it that way, good friends don't fall out over something like this, I'm sure you can sort it out, it's so easy to misquote, I really couldn't give it my time of day but 'Guest' seems to want to drag it out :roll: don't be angry at Xmas :D
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Psychiatrists give a shit about kids, they just want to pill you up with the flavor of the month. I was sent to a wwasp program by the head adolescent psychiatric doctor in a major city, after my dad brought in some brochures. My best advice to parents is don't be naive, nobody is going to care about your child other than you in this world, no matter how much you pay them, or how nice they seem.
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1. Real therapy has nothing to do with this sadistic bullshit. Most of the people involved in this have no licenses at all, and the ones that do should probably have them revoked. This "therapy" is not supported by the American Psychiatric Association, the Surgeon General's office, or much of anyone else.
2. Don't even pretend. There's a world of difference between "Do this task, or else" coercion and "I will use these practices to attempt to change who this person is". The first is occasionally necessary but is generally to be avoided. The second is absolutely unconscionable, a flat denial of its victims' humanity.
3. On the premise of neglect. Just because some idiot might sign his kid away to some hellhole doesn't make the parent any less responsible for what happens to him. If the kid claims abuse then the parent ought to have a one-on-one session with the kid in private, no programmies around, and ask just what the hell is going on. It is almost impossible for kids to craft real abusive practices out of thin air. Kids can't make this stuff up. What experience would they have to make it up with? How would they even get started?
4. The term "behavior modification" is Soviet. There's a major difference between a Family Functional Therapy guy sitting a kid and his parents down into a room and saying "all right, when you do this, your parents react like this, and then this happens and this happens, so next time you were going to go do something stupid, don't" (so the behavior is in fact modified, but it's not "behavior modification" as it is known today), and a brainwashing session in which techniques like food and sleep deprivation, along with humiliation and heavy amounts of force, are used to try to re-mold a child.
5. Most parenting books are full of crap because any idiot can write one, but quit trying to discredit real psychologists and real therapeutic techniques. It doesn't work. And it, in fact, does pass- take a look around this site at all the real parents who refused to send their kids to a program, despite what their kids happened to be doing. Julie and Ginger come to mind. The kids grew up! Fancy that. The only thing that's guaranteed to make things worse is paying tens of thousands of dollars to stamp a programmed kid's mind where a personality used to be.
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Ex- you seem to be putting words in people's mouths. No one called you selfish. Hmmm- feeling that way perhaps?
lol no, I know I am doing everything I can for my kids, you might want to go back and re read the thread before happily typing away without getting the facts straight, I didn't say anything about it, it was a misquote by Cassandra
I didn't write the above post either.
Anne don't get pissed about it,I really I wasn't offended by it which is why I ignored it in the first place, I'm sure cassandra didn't mean it that way, good friends don't fall out over something like this, I'm sure you can sort it out, it's so easy to misquote, I really couldn't give it my time of day but 'Guest' seems to want to drag it out :roll: don't be angry at Xmas :D
Yes, she misquoted me. That is a simple mistake, but she actually believed[/b] that I wrote that which means she believes that I think like that. THAT is what tells me that she doesn't know me in the least. And, as I said, the assholish comments about my offer for her to come stay with me were completely uncalled for.
It's not that big a deal and I'll get over it....it's just disappointing
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I know you didn't write that! I quoted it as Guest writing it....hmm wonder who guest could piossibly be? Any ideas anyone? :roll:
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I didn't lash out at society. society lashed out at me.
:tup:
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I know you didn't write that! I quoted it as Guest writing it....hmm wonder who guest could piossibly be? Any ideas anyone? :roll:
Yes, it was your mother!
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It's really amazing that we even have to debate over this shit. Most of you program parents are a fucking JOKE. And to those of you that the shoe fits (you know who you are) kindly fuck off! ::both::
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I know you didn't write that! I quoted it as Guest writing it....hmm wonder who guest could piossibly be? Any ideas anyone? :roll:
Yes, it was your mother!
Nominated as the most idiotic post of the year :silly:
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I know you didn't write that! I quoted it as Guest writing it....hmm wonder who guest could piossibly be? Any ideas anyone? :roll:
Yes, it was your mother!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :nworthy:
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:lol: you had a go at me ha ha ha ha
ok run along and get a life now
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I know you didn't write that! I quoted it as Guest writing it....hmm wonder who guest could piossibly be? Any ideas anyone? :roll:
I was just clarifying things, not necessarily just for you, I figured you knew it wasn't me. It just seems like some anon posts have been attributed to me that I have not written, not just in this forum but some of the others too, so I was just making sure that anyone reading was aware of what posts were mine and what weren't.
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:lol: you had a go at me ha ha ha ha
ok run along and get a life now
Say it with money.
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="Guest
Say it with money.
What's with all the "say it with money" crap? Damn, things are changing around here faster than you can say "What the fuck?"
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It wasn't my mother.
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="Guest
Say it with money.
What's with all the "say it with money" crap? Damn, things are changing around here faster than you can say "What the fuck?"
What's your point?
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It's really amazing that we even have to debate over this shit. Most of you program parents are a fucking JOKE. And to those of you that the shoe fits (you know who you are) kindly fuck off! ::both::
:nworthy: :nworthy: ::bwahaha:: ::both:: ::bwahaha2:: ::bangin:: :wave: ::argue:: ::bigsmilebounce:: :tup: :tup:
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="Guest
Say it with money.
What's with all the "say it with money" crap? Damn, things are changing around here faster than you can say "What the fuck?"
What's your point?
Her point is she's not interested in your stupidity, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out :wave:
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Wait, you mean that "Guest" is leaving Fornits for good? That guy always really annoyed me. All those different opinions coming from the exact same poster, sometimes one right after the other faster than anyone can type. He must have been copying and pasting with different windows. The amount of time he's been spending on this site makes me wonder how he eats and sleeps.
Bye, Guest. We'll miss you.
If you took the above as anything but a joke, kick yourself in the head.
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Wait, you mean that "Guest" is leaving Fornits for good? That guy always really annoyed me. All those different opinions coming from the exact same poster, sometimes one right after the other faster than anyone can type. He must have been copying and pasting with different windows. Makes me wonder how he eats and sleeps.
I always thought guest was a woman.
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Wait, you mean that "Guest" is leaving Fornits for good? That guy always really annoyed me. All those different opinions coming from the exact same poster, sometimes one right after the other faster than anyone can type. He must have been copying and pasting with different windows. The amount of time he's been spending on this site makes me wonder how he eats and sleeps.
Bye, Guest. We'll miss you.
If you took the above as anything but a joke, kick yourself in the head.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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="Guest
Say it with money.
What's with all the "say it with money" crap? Damn, things are changing around here faster than you can say "What the fuck?"
What's your point?
Her point is she's not interested in your stupidity, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out :wave:
Put your money where your fuckin' mouth is, penis face! :P
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Penis face....interesting, haven't been called that before, wonder what a psychiatrist would think of that
Do you have a underlying sexual problem?
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Underlying? No. My sexual problems are more of the "in your face" variety. I wonder what your mom would think of that.
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Penis face....interesting, haven't been called that before, wonder what a psychiatrist would think of that
Do you have a underlying sexual problem?
Get your masks on! Tie the fucking bitch up!
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Underlying? No. My sexual problems are more of the "in your face" variety. I wonder what your mom would think of that.
Probaby the same as me, that your sad, go away child
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More kinkiness. Now this is why I really come to fornits.
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Underlying? No. My sexual problems are more of the "in your face" variety. I wonder what your mom would think of that.
Is this the sort of in your face where your balls are slapping against her chin when you are getting busy?
That's exactly the sort of in your face I meant.
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:lol: In your dreams
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a selfish need to have them at home
Wow! How selfish to need to be close to your kids. Anne, know why I'm not rockin out on the bay at your li'll hotel right about now instead of shivering in the frozen north? That's right, cause I'm just that pathologically selfish, that's all! :roll:
Ya might want to go back and re-read that. I did not write that and how you could even entertain the notion that I did is beyond me. :roll: :roll: :roll:
I know you didn't write that. You quoted it and I was just chiming in. But w/e.
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And that's why you threw the comment about my boat in there? If I truly read that wrong, I apologize. It sure looked directed at me though, ya know with my name and all.