Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 13, 2006, 02:43:38 AM
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Anyone who wants to do the things we talk about to Fornits to children, anyone who thinks it might be a good idea to keep kids in isolation for weeks at a time or subject them to humiliation or brainwash them in LGATs, anyone who thinks that years in some warehouse being treated like shit and forced to say that they are shit will ultimately help them become better people, is seriously mentally diseased, probably beyond hope of recovery.
And any parent who can want this to be done to his kid, let alone pay for it, is seriously mentally diseased and should probably seek help for himself.
This isn't the kind of thing people can do to kids and get away with. This is the kind of thing people can fantasize about behind a homepage with a massive disclaimer, and if anyone finds out they're in the wrong profession (e.g. teaching, day care, school bus driver), they're getting their asses kicked anyway.
When I am dictator, anyone who even seriously considers doing this will be killed in such an unbelievably brutal and horrific fashion that the next asshole who comes around can see the head on the spike and be warned.
There's your dose of moral clarity for the evening. Enjoy.
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Needs something about eye gouging and gentital mutilation.
TSW
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Yeah well when I'm king, the people who did this shit are going to get the 'Silent Hill' treatment.
(http://http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5995/pyramidheadnr9.jpg)
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anyone who thinks it might be a good idea to keep kids in isolation for weeks at a time
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Does this include groundings?
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Do you keep your kids physically locked up in their rooms for weeks on end, prevented from seeing or even talking to any of their friends at all?
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anyone who thinks it might be a good idea to keep kids in isolation for weeks at a time
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Does this include groundings?
Isolation as in they are COMPLETELY CUT OFF FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD. EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE PROGRAM.
Parents, family, friends, the news, music, any non-approved reading, television, any and all media and any and all (non-apporoved) meetings with family members.
Grounding is not isolation... unless you lock them up in their room with the windows blocked, dont let them go to school or speak to family members or friends, and you do not do that, now do you?
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They aren't allowed their friends round no, they also aren't allowed the TV, they have to earn that one back, but no it's not total isolation, maybe I should try that next :D
Oh and the non approved reading, should I take their stash of porn mags away :P
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They aren't allowed their friends round no, they also aren't allowed the TV, they have to earn that one back, but no it's not total isolation, maybe I should try that next :D
Oh and the non approved reading, should I take their stash of porn mags away :P
Good idea, stimulate their imagination! I do hope you're not stuck doing their laundry :(
In all seriousness, unless you keep them under lock in key, isolated from you and your entire family (themself by themself in their room) with no contact with the outside world, you are not really isolating them. It does not compare one iota.
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If they had anymore they could open a shop TSW :roll:
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program parents choose not to make the distinction that the ends just might not justify the means. or that we are people and we cannot just forget the proccess used. it doesn't work. this is the entire program philosophy. take my kid for a while, don't really tell me or show me what you are doing, just fix my kid and give them back after a year or two.
that's really all it is. they believe the ends justify any means. and if you choose an end as righteous as saving a life, then all sorts of shit is going to be done in it's name.
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I don't think there's a kid on this panet who can do a deal and make the buyer think they've got a bargain like they can - they'll never be poor that's a cert !!
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Hmmmm...don't know, we've had a few pretty good days, and I've made sure they've known it's been nice to have them around
However, this morning, the 13 year old wanted money, I said no because I wont give him the amount it takes to buy cigarettes or alcohol, I also had given him a small amount of sweet money yesterday - anyroad the outcome was, that if I didn't give him money he was going to smash someone's car window.... I just caught him throwing the stone in broad daylight in front of my house for all to see, tried to grab him but he ran away from me, so I guess I'm going to have to get used to those few steps forward meaning giant leaps back at times :( I was so pleased they were settling in to some normal behaviour too
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Hmmmm...don't know, we've had a few pretty good days, and I've made sure they've known it's been nice to have them around
However, this morning, the 13 year old wanted money, I said no because I wont give him the amount it takes to buy cigarettes or alcohol, I also had given him a small amount of sweet money yesterday - anyroad the outcome was, that if I didn't give him money he was going to smash someone's car window.... I just caught him throwing the stone in broad daylight in front of my house for all to see, tried to grab him but he ran away from me, so I guess I'm going to have to get used to those few steps forward meaning giant leaps back at times :( I was so pleased they were settling in to some normal behaviour too
Tell him to get a job or do something for you that is worth money, and tell him if he can't handle that he can go suck a yob off for some cash.
You might be amazed!
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You can't work here at his age, he can do a paper round I think now he's 13 but theres none here, they've been taken years ago and no one will let go of them as we live remote and thats the only work a school age kid can get
Anyways I'm not giving him money for doing jobs for me either, I wont finance his dangerous train journeys and smoking
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so I guess I'm going to have to get used to those few steps forward meaning giant leaps back at times :( I was so pleased they were settling in to some normal behaviour too
Yeah, it does mean giant leaps backwards sometimes. Sucks, I know. I went through this for about 6 years with my oldest one. She's now 21 and finally has a direction in her life and is doing well, but it's been a long, hard road for both of us. From what I've been reading (I haven't gotten all of it, but the general gist) you're not doing so badly a job. If he breaks someone's window, let him suffer the natural consequences. Your job is to help guide them through this period of thier lives, not to make them behave...although I understand the desire to do so. All you can do is teach them right from wrong, try to set the example and above all, be realistic with them. Realistic in expectations of them (letting them figure out what they want for their lives, not what you want for them), realistic about drugs and sex (not spreading the propaganda about pot being dangerous, give them condoms instead of preaching abstinence) and realistic in what the natural consequences of their actions are. If they steal and get caught, they pay the price. Mom doesn't pay the fine, ground them and let it go.
It does eventually get better, really it does. Just be real with them. Both of mine tell me that's the best thing I ever did for them. I didn't talk just to hear myself talk, there weren't arbitrary rules in our house and I was pretty damn open and honest with them about my own life and what happened due to some of the choices I made. I didn't buy into or teach them the anti-drug crap that's shoved down our throats in this country or freak out when they wore stupid, freakish clothes or hung out with idiots. Teenagers are idiots a lot of the time, it's normal. It's a part of cutting the apron strings and figuring out who they are and what they want for their own lives. It's easy to get caught up in the kind of thinking like "I'm just trying to ensure their future" or "if they don't finish school life will suck" or "I'm trying to keep them away from bad influences". None of that kind of thinking works. They're supposed to be stupid morons for a while. They're supposed to hate us for a while. They're supposed to do crazy things that keep us awake all night and jumpy, waiting for a phone call. It sucks, but it's true and it's all necessary for them to grow up.
I wish you the best. It will get better...someday.
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so I guess I'm going to have to get used to those few steps forward meaning giant leaps back at times :( I was so pleased they were settling in to some normal behaviour too
It does eventually get better, really it does. Just be real with them. Both of mine tell me that's the best thing I ever did for them. I didn't talk just to hear myself talk, there weren't arbitrary rules in our house and I was pretty damn open and honest with them about my own life and what happened due to some of the choices I made.
I wish you the best. It will get better...someday.
Well kudos to you Anne. I know of few parents who are able to do this. I remember finding what my brother and I nicknamed the Giant Comedy Bong in my parents attic to have my poor mother snap Tobacco was the only thing ever smoked through that! She is mocked for that reaction to this day. There are few parents who can actually step back and be calm about the issue of illegal drug use. I dont know why.
I know of many who suck it up when it comes to underage drinking, sex and other vices but panic about drug use and tell their kids that one puff of weed will eventually make them a homeless smack addict. I know in the case of my own parents they did not even believe this themselves. But they still trotted it out. I wonder why this is?
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Thanks for the words of encouragement Anne,
Like you i don't go on about what clothes they wear and stuff like that, I couldn't care less what they wear, I have talked with them about a certain few lads they are involved with who are really big trouble, just said I know I can't chose their friends, but it might be wise to look at the route their 'friends' are going down and make a decision based on that, as for sex, we've always been open in this house about it, it's not a taboo subject, my lads all know they can come to me if they need to get some info or condoms or whatever they need, they also know if they don't want to talk to me that I'll take them to a clinic where they can talk to someone else - drugs, I do express a lot of concern, not because I think everyone who smokes weed is going to go on to harder drugs (but it has to start somewhere) but because of a personal issue that started with weed and unfortunately it had a very bad affect on a person and eventually lead to their death, so i do talk alot about the dangers of anxiety attacks, paranoia, psychosis, it does scare me shitless to be honest so maybe I go on quite a bit about that.
you're right about not trying to live your life through your children, or wanting them to be what you want them to be, i think I've done that in the past, I wanted stepford children and was really upset I didn't get them, I have learnt that they are individuals who don't necessarily have the same values or wants or needs as me, so have pretty much 'let go' in the sense I am letting them be themselves without any aggro from me
i do however resent the fines, the calls from the police, the angry neighbours, I am being punished for their crimes, i don't commit crimes yet I'm the one held responsible, and as the parent I do have to pay those fines, I am also 100% held responsible for them going to school and staying there, every time they don't go I am one step closer to going to court, in the UK ppl are imprisoned for this, even if they've tried their absolute hardest to make the kid go and stay, it makes no difference, the parent faces the consequence.....you can see how stressful it is, facing fines and possible prison for something you didn't do and have tried your upmost to put right
But thank you for the light at the end of the tunnel....lets hope my boys are two of those who just come out the other side, the eldest hasn't, he's hell bent on being in and out of jail forever...I guess I have to accept it's his choice, but it is my choice that he don't ever come back to this house again.
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Thanks for the words of encouragement Anne,
Like you i don't go on about what clothes they wear and stuff like that, I couldn't care less what they wear, I have talked with them about a certain few lads they are involved with who are really big trouble, just said I know I can't chose their friends, but it might be wise to look at the route their 'friends' are going down and make a decision based on that, as for sex, we've always been open in this house about it, it's not a taboo subject, my lads all know they can come to me if they need to get some info or condoms or whatever they need, they also know if they don't want to talk to me that I'll take them to a clinic where they can talk to someone else - drugs, I do express a lot of concern, not because I think everyone who smokes weed is going to go on to harder drugs (but it has to start somewhere) but because of a personal issue that started with weed and unfortunately it had a very bad affect on a person and eventually lead to their death, so i do talk alot about the dangers of anxiety attacks, paranoia, psychosis, it does scare me shitless to be honest so maybe I go on quite a bit about that.
That's really all you can do. If I had lied to them about MJ and fed them the 'you'll die' crap, when they eventually did try it and found out I was full of shit it would blow my credibility with anything else that I told them. That doesn't mean I just said it was perfectly fine with me and there were no problems. The biggest one I find for teenagers using pot is that they get really, really lazy. I was honest. That included both the good and the bad. I didn't spin it either way, I just gave them the facts.
you're right about not trying to live your life through your children, or wanting them to be what you want them to be, i think I've done that in the past, I wanted stepford children and was really upset I didn't get them, I have learnt that they are individuals who don't necessarily have the same values or wants or needs as me, so have pretty much 'let go' in the sense I am letting them be themselves without any aggro from me
That doesn't mean you can't still say the pain in the ass mom things that we all do. :wink: You can try and steer them in what you think is a more productive direction, but you just can't force it.
i do however resent the fines, the calls from the police, the angry neighbours, I am being punished for their crimes, i don't commit crimes yet I'm the one held responsible, and as the parent I do have to pay those fines, I am also 100% held responsible for them going to school and staying there, every time they don't go I am one step closer to going to court, in the UK ppl are imprisoned for this, even if they've tried their absolute hardest to make the kid go and stay, it makes no difference, the parent faces the consequence.....you can see how stressful it is, facing fines and possible prison for something you didn't do and have tried your upmost to put right
I don't blame you for resenting that. It would piss me off too. That's where some of the other suggestions come in. Make them work for it. It'll accomplish a few things. You'll get help, they'll get consequences, if they do work for you it'll help their sense of accomplishment (even if it's not readily apparent to you or them), it'll make them feel more a part of the family (even if it's not readily apparent to you or them). They need to understand that there are natural consequences for their actions. Make sure you follow through with it and let whatever fallout that comes from other sources stand. Don't bail them out of what they get themselves into.
But thank you for the light at the end of the tunnel....lets hope my boys are two of those who just come out the other side, the eldest hasn't, he's hell bent on being in and out of jail forever...I guess I have to accept it's his choice, but it is my choice that he don't ever come back to this house again.
I know, I'm sorry. That's the toughest thing for parents sometimes. They're going to make the choices they do and we can't change that. We can try and help them, teach them and guide them but ultimately it's up to them. I wish you all the luck in the world. You're doing better than most and obviously infinitely better than the idiots who ship them off somewhere.
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Anyone who wants to do the things we talk about to Fornits to children, anyone who thinks it might be a good idea to keep kids in isolation for weeks at a time or subject them to humiliation or brainwash them in LGATs, anyone who thinks that years in some warehouse being treated like shit and forced to say that they are shit will ultimately help them become better people, is seriously mentally diseased, probably beyond hope of recovery.
And any parent who can want this to be done to his kid, let alone pay for it, is seriously mentally diseased and should probably seek help for himself.
This isn't the kind of thing people can do to kids and get away with. This is the kind of thing people can fantasize about behind a homepage with a massive disclaimer, and if anyone finds out they're in the wrong profession (e.g. teaching, day care, school bus driver), they're getting their asses kicked anyway.
When I am dictator, anyone who even seriously considers doing this will be killed in such an unbelievably brutal and horrific fashion that the next asshole who comes around can see the head on the spike and be warned.
There's your dose of moral clarity for the evening. Enjoy.
Translates to: I really want to be a dictator so I can move out of my mom's basement.
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Anyone who wants to do the things we talk about to Fornits to children, anyone who thinks it might be a good idea to keep kids in isolation for weeks at a time or subject them to humiliation or brainwash them in LGATs, anyone who thinks that years in some warehouse being treated like shit and forced to say that they are shit will ultimately help them become better people, is seriously mentally diseased, probably beyond hope of recovery.
And any parent who can want this to be done to his kid, let alone pay for it, is seriously mentally diseased and should probably seek help for himself.
This isn't the kind of thing people can do to kids and get away with. This is the kind of thing people can fantasize about behind a homepage with a massive disclaimer, and if anyone finds out they're in the wrong profession (e.g. teaching, day care, school bus driver), they're getting their asses kicked anyway.
When I am dictator, anyone who even seriously considers doing this will be killed in such an unbelievably brutal and horrific fashion that the next asshole who comes around can see the head on the spike and be warned.
There's your dose of moral clarity for the evening. Enjoy.
Translates to: I really want to be a dictator so I can move out of my mom's basement.
[troll1] And it's not even that funny.
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Everybody gather 'round, I've got another hot dose of clarity. This one goes out to all the program parents out there, and I guarantee you're not gonna like what I have to say.
It doesn't matter what the hell your kid was doing. Paying people to incarcerate and brainwash him is flat fucking wrong. You might have been desperate or deluded as all hell. It seriously doesn't matter. Your kids might have been chaotic as adolescents usually are, but you have committed a true evil, an evil that no one (except maybe your kids..) is going to punish you for and that you will probably never be able to make real restitution for. Understanding this is the only way to forgiveness and redemption.
"But his behaviors were.." Nope! Doesn't matter. If his behaviors were really that bad then that's why we have a criminal justice system, and the things done in American juvenile detention centers are much less damaging than the things done in places like WWASPS, CEDU, and Aspen. And even Saddam Hussein was given a trial, and is sentenced to die in a relatively merciful way. By paying people to abduct your children in the middle of the night to go to a place that is worse than jail, you have given your own children less accord than society gives adult, unrepentant murderers.
This isn't something I pulled out of my ass. This is a simple comparison to the actions of program parents versus that of societal norms.
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Although what you say may be true Milk - these are parents, parents are people who wil do anythingit takes to help their kids, protect themn, die for them, if they truly believe they are helping their child, they shouldn't be slated for that, how many people post how easy it is to manipulate a desperate parent into believing their child will die if they are not saved? If you as a parent are faced with that, and are convinced it is FACT, you'll send them where ever to save them, there are always two sides to every coin, you're being a bit harsh imo
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Just because you don't know a thing is wrong, doesn't make it any less wrong. For example, Randall Hinton of WWASPS has locked his three-year-old daughter out of the house as punishment. To Randall this is perfectly right. To the rest of us this is fucking insane. Similar examples abound. In the 1800's, the Chinese would prevent their girls' feet from growing, resulting in a three-inch-long "golden lotus". It took quite some time before they realized how fucking sick that was and abolished the practice.
Ignorance might make reconciliation and forgiveness a lot easier, but it doesn't change the moral quality of the actions.
Assuming we're going to believe in morals at all, of course. If we're going to forsake the concept (and really, the concept of actions being 'bad' is annoying, isn't it?), then the programmies can do whatever they want to children, and I can do whatever I want to programmies. So much easier that way...
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Although what you say may be true Milk - these are parents, parents are people who wil do anythingit takes to help their kids, protect themn, die for them, if they truly believe they are helping their child, they shouldn't be slated for that, how many people post how easy it is to manipulate a desperate parent into believing their child will die if they are not saved? If you as a parent are faced with that, and are convinced it is FACT, you'll send them where ever to save them, there are always two sides to every coin, you're being a bit harsh imo
I aggree with you 100%
Parents are victims as well. Milk. Put yourself in a parent's position. You're desperate, you have no idea what to do. Some parent who you know comes to you and says "you should send your kid where mind is. she loves it and it's helping her change into a new person". You contact an educational consultand he/she recommends. The ed-con tells you "my god.. your son will be dead if he continues along his self destructive path. I've seen a lot of kids like your son in my time and he needs help." etc etc etc... you know how the story goes.
But I can tell you that my parents did NOT know what was going on where I was. They were stupid, they were naive, they were desperate, they were afraid, they were manipulated.... they were victims of a con. But there was never any malice in them. I cannot judge them based on things they did intending to help me. Let's not lose sight of who is the enemy here. Program is the enemy. I thought my parents knew, i thought they didn't care, i thought they had abandoned me. Program played on their fears, their prejudices, their hopes and dreams for me. They promised a new me, and they almost delivered. I was overwritten, with who they wanted me to be, a victimizer, he who had hurt his parents for fun and spite, an evil being, a slayer of the innocent. I was a sinner in need of redempetion. They could sell me salvation, and send my parents the bill. They never underwent the abuse I did, but they have to live with the knowledge that they made it happen, that is the cross that they have to bear. Living with the knowledge that i cried out for help, and they ignored my pleas. They have to live with that knowledge for the rest of their lives. Given a choice, I'm not sure i would rather be in their shoes. Guilt.... That is parent's punishment.
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We're talking around each other, really.
Of course they feel guilt for it. Guilt is the normal reaction to realizing you've done something horribly wrong. This is what separates the parents- their reaction to it. We have the real scumbags who say things like "they deserved that" (or flat willful-blindness denial that anything bad ever happened) and the otherwise innocent parents who say "oh Jesus what have I done". The latter is a lot easier to forgive (as Psy has done).
Consider a woman driving around looking at Christmas lights. Her gaze spends too long on one particular house and not enough at the road, some six-year-old runs out in front of her, and suddenly there's a bumping sound as she runs over a semi-solid object. It wasn't her fault per se- who'd think that a six-year-old would be running out in the street at night?!- and she most certainly didn't mean to do it, but that doesn't change the fact that her inattention cost a six-year-old his life. Odds are she'll lose a lot of sleep over it and tearfully attend the funeral, never thinking of herself the same way again, even if the child's family understands and forgives her. I don't intend to end up like her so when I'm driving, I keep my eyes open for kids running into the street.
Exhausted, when Aspen sent you that email saying to take your kids to the airport as soon as possible, they really weren't kidding. They honestly thought you'd do that, take your kids sight-unseen to people who you don't know. They wouldn't take that attitude if there weren't parents out there who do exactly this. A lot of them want to be conned, to get the easy fix which isn't, just so they can say to themselves that they have a final solution for their problem children.
And yes, the programmies are flat-out evil. They have constructed a new moral hierarchy for themselves, which holds themselves and their wishes inviolate and the rights of children as nothing, with plenty of bullshit to justify what they do. Taking them from their fantasy to the reality of the society everyone else lives in is what a lot of people here want to do (even if we don't put it in quite those terms). Consider HLA. Len Buccellato is still in fantasyland, still desperately trying to hold up his little kingdom, even among the massive layoffs, bouncing paychecks, and impending lawsuit. Why? Because when the illusion comes shattering down, he has to either completely deny reality to the point of schizophrenia, or come to terms with what he really is and what he's really been doing.
When the choice is "realize you've done something wrong" or "keep believing it was for the best", it's all too easy to choose the latter.
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When the choice is "realize you've done something wrong" or "keep believing it was for the best", it's all too easy to choose the latter.
Milk - this is a sad profound truth. What motivates parents to make placement? Panic. Frustration. More panic. The desire to keep them from suicide.
But, I think it it erroneous to believe that most parents "want to be conned". Believe me when I tell you that it was an "easy fix".
I believe there are really lousy - filthy rich parents out there who just don't want to deal with teenage angst. And they may ship their kids off so that they don't have to deal with them.
But, there are others who desperately love their children. Who have tried every community resource, mental health resource, and program available to us. Our children weren't experimenting with a little pot, or occasional weekend drugs. We weren't worried about casual safe sex. Or mouthy disrespect ... or lousy grades. Some of us were truly afraid for the very lives of our children.
And in terms of the juvenile court system helping our kids ... that is just plain laughable. The jurisprudence system (even the juvenile system) is punitive not rehabilitative. Most kids who travel through the juvenile court systems end up as adults lost in a prison system that don't give a flying fart about their lives. The penal system doesn't care to help a child figure out why they use drugs or cut themselves or attempt suicide or run away ... they just want to incarcerate them for doing so. It puts a band-aid on a cancer.
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But I can tell you that my parents did NOT know what was going on where I was. They were stupid, they were naive, they were desperate, they were afraid, they were manipulated.... they were victims of a con. But there was never any malice in them. I cannot judge them based on things they did intending to help me.
My sentiments exactly. The worst I can accuse my parents of was being ignorant and freaked out.
There was a guy in my peer group who had a dad that could definitely fit into the "uncaring rich asshole parent" category. (Poor bastard, he really had it rough.) But for most of us, our parents were just suckered and didn't know any better.
American juvenile detention centers are much less damaging than the things done in places like WWASPS, CEDU, and Aspen.
You are obviously unfamiliar with the California Youth Authority. (CYA) They don't call it "cover your ass" for nothing. Abuse is abuse.
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This was the ending to my life's story (a writing assignment at Benchmark)
Somehow I think my parents knew that Benchmark was not really that much of a school but that is in the past and I don't know if I really care anymore. I'm here and I know that I need this place. I'm not entirely sure if for any ?one? reason alone but I do now that the way I have been living my life hasn't been working and I need to be shown a better way.
I have been typing up my journals from benchmark, which I have not read since written. No emphasis added. The underlines were there in the original.
Now can anybody say "mind fuck"!
This was written just after they first broke me.
I truly believed that shit when i wrote it.... ::bangin:: :silly: ::puke::
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Don't be too hard on yourself, Psy; think of it as having been under the influence of a bad trip....
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I still don't understand how any parent justifies the lynchpin of a program:
Not believing your kid, if not having zero contact outright.
I just don't get it.
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Excellent point. Ask a progrm parent, the best answer you'll ever get is ignorance. Kind of leaves a btiter taste in your mouth, doesn't it?
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Fear and the promise of an end to their hysteria (most of which is brought upon by society's bullshit, or the programs bullshit...) can make people be idiots I guess.
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I wouldnt' do to my dog what program parents do to their kid.
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I wouldnt' do to my dog what program parents do to their kid.
You got that right, buddy. Me neither, and those are some pretty sick motherfuckers who do it.
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Guest, programme paremnts don't do it to their kids, the programs do, the parents sendd their kids away because they realy believe their kid will die in a horrific way if they don't take action, Milk is right that it doesn't make it right, but I certainly wouldn't slate anyone for trying to do whatever it takes to save their kid when they really really believe they are in danger....for example, let's turn the woman distracted from the road by the lights and killing the 6 yo into a different scenario
The woman is looking at the lights all distracted and the car wanders across the road, a 6 year old has run into the street, because she is distracted, she has wandered off course and missed the child, if she'd been going in a straight line, the kid would have been hit as he appeared from between two cars on a bycicle for arguments sake....now we have a scenario worth discussing - is the woman still wrong for not concentrating on the road? Or do we count our blessings that she did so? Was her action of doing the wrong thing, that consequently saved the child's life ok? She did the wrong thing after all! but a child's life was saved because of it
discuss, it's interesting to hear the different views.
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How about if the mother's daughter start talking back to her, and ditching school. One day the mother goes into her room while she's at school and finds a pack of ciggarettes, and condoms. Her daughter is only 14. So the mother searches on the internet for key words "bad teens" and finds a small website that claims there is a facility that wil fix her kid. She calls the phone number and the people on the phone tell her her kid will die if she doens't send her away. The mother agrees and goes to the bank to transfer the funds necessary to hire private kidnappers to come take her daughter out of her room the next night at 3 a.m. and have her whisked away to a facility that the mother has never seen. The girl spends the next two years at this facility and is emotinally and physically abused. When she gets out she tells her mother the truth and her mother tells her that she didn't know. The mother asks why did the daughter pretend that everything was okay when it wasn't. The daughter rolls her eyes and walks out.
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Kids don't deserve no goddamn rights, cuz they ain't no better than a bunch of fuckin' NIGGERS! If mine ever try to "assert their rights" I'm gonna drag 'em out to the woodshed and tear up their uppity little asses![/i]
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and tear up their uppity little asses!
Kinky.
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Guest that's the reality, I was talking hypothetically
I want to tell everyone something that happened yesterday, well 2 things actually but they are related in my mind anyway
My daughter came in after being out with her friends, we are having serious fog problems here, the lad who as driving them wasn't drinking and was driving really slowly, but he misjudged and they had a crash
She came in really upset that I was going to go mad at her friend, i told her it was okay, it's only a bit of metal and as long as they are all okay it didn't matter
Why? Why didn't I tell the lad he shouldn't have risked going out in that weather, puting my daughter in danger ...because
An hour earlier my 13 yo got a phone call, it was a friend of his to tell him another friend of theirs had been killed in a high speed car crash, a 16 yo's life had been taken 2 days before Xmas (any day is bad enough) because he stole a car that he wasn't able to drive (you cannot drive here until you are 17)
Now taking the two different crashes, the lad who crashed and everyone was okay made a bad judgement, no one got hurt but it could have been different, does that make him wrong? Even though he didn't mean it
The lad who stole the car, knew he was doing wrong, he knew he had stolen the car, he knew he was running from the law, he knew he wasn't supposed to be driving, did he deserve to die for it? Can we say too bad, it's his own fault because he knew it was wrong?
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I don't think either one of them deserve to die. The kid who stole the car, at most, deserved whatever punishment it is you get over there for grand theft auto. (a 50 dollar fine maybe? :wink: )
Here is an anology of mine. What if your daughter had gotten into the car with the boy who had stolen it. She knew he didn't own a car, but he didn't tell her it was stolen and got in anyways. She is ignorant, but maybe she should of asked a question or two? I don't know. Now let's say that the boy is drunk. Your daughter isn't sure, but has suspicions. The driver's words are slurry, he's acting kind of funny, driving a car that she's never seen. In her gut it doesn't feel right but he convinces her to stay. Things don't add up, but she's keeps quiet because he's the man and trust him. Driving down the road a young boy walks in the street and the drunk teen driver, with your daughter along side as passenger, strike and kill that young boy. What should happen to the daughter? She could have stopped it if she just raised her voice.
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Guest, programme paremnts don't do it to their kids, the programs do, the parents sendd their kids away because they realy believe their kid will die in a horrific way if they don't take action, Milk is right that it doesn't make it right, but I certainly wouldn't slate anyone for trying to do whatever it takes to save their kid when they really really believe they are in danger...
Exhausted, the intentional abuse factor varies from (parental) unit to unit. The logic in inescapable.
There are some parents that desperately need a good kick in the head with a steel-toed boot. It's the 'rents that supply these places with what they need most in order to stay in operation -- MONEY!!
Soon, if I have my way, ignorance will no longer be an excuse and there will be horrible consequences dealt out & the blood of parental unit after unit will be spilled. Their kids will be standing there with knives and big ol' grins on their faces. Parents, your time has come. :skull:
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Also we must not forget about the program parents who become full fledge programmies. Parent slike Sue Scheff, and she is not alone, there are many many parents like her. They get introduced to programs, and embrace it with their entire soul. I wouldn't believe something so ridiculous would be possible until I saw it with my own eyes. Each program usually has a very hardcore support group of parents who are better than program employees. They market, do PR, take on program critics, a group of wwasps parents even produced their own informercial (a 15 minute video promoting wwasp). The reason why most people knew to this industry think ignorance can explain it all away is because that is the logical deduction. I thought that too. That's what normal human beings think. Sadly, it's not any more than slightly true.
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Exhausted, I understand what you are saying but how can parents send their child away without even doing research as many do? And of course, what one sees as something typical another sees as a need for intervention. that is why many feel it should be up to a third party. if someone's son kills someone, their parents do not decide the outcome, the law does.
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Exhausted I am curious if you had sent your son off after you got that email (as many parents do) and he came back and reported cult like activity, emotional abuse, the kind of stuff you hear about here... how would you react to that? What would you say to your kid when you look them in the eyes? That's what I really want to know from program parents, what answer could you possibly give?
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Good point Dr Evil - however, I'd like to remind you that no matter how much research a parent does, they are led to believe their program choice is the perfect place, look at what Psy wrote, he was a victim and even he believed it was the right thing for him in the end! If a parent is able to talk to kids in the program and they are saying it's all good and they are so glad someone stepped in, what are they meant to believe?
We all make serious mistake sin life as parents, kids and non parents, sometimes it's through ignorance
Anyone who sends their kid away because they cant be bothered to deal with the teen years (oh they are so trying) with the attitude of 'bring em back when they're 18, deserves to be shot at dawn, that kind of crap is a concious wrong
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And that's why I am so adimate about the distinction. Don't give program parents a blanket excuse of ignorance, because for some of them it isn't true. There is a VERY fine line between ignorance, and purposefully not educating yourself. Why don't fundamentalist christians have a copy of origina of species next to their bible on their bookshelf? The same reason program parents don't google the name of their program.
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Exhausted I am curious if you had sent your son off after you got that email (as many parents do) and he came back and reported cult like activity, emotional abuse, the kind of stuff you hear about here... how would you react to that? What would you say to your kid when you look them in the eyes? That's what I really want to know from program parents, what answer could you possibly give?
Oh God don't....I'm not sure I can answer that, I think you'd have to have been in that position....I think my 1st concern would be to make sure my son was 100% okay mentally and if not, do whatever i could do try and undo any damage, beg forgiveness form my son would be the second thing on my list, expain my reasons and also tell him i understand if he can't find it in his heart to forgive me for putting him in that position...
Then i'd go after the program....and probably end up doing life for several murders
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Guest, programme paremnts don't do it to their kids, the programs do, the parents sendd their kids away because they realy believe their kid will die in a horrific way if they don't take action, Milk is right that it doesn't make it right, but I certainly wouldn't slate anyone for trying to do whatever it takes to save their kid when they really really believe they are in danger...
Exhausted, the intentional abuse factor varies from (parental) unit to unit. The logic in inescapable.
There are some parents that desperately need a good kick in the head with a steel-toed boot. It's the 'rents that supply these places with what they need most in order to stay in operation -- MONEY!!
Soon, if I have my way, ignorance will no longer be an excuse and there will be horrible consequences dealt out & the blood of parental unit after unit will be spilled. Their kids will be standing there with knives and big ol' grins on their faces. Parents, your time has come. :skull:
I couldn't agree more; you're dead on! Ignorance should no longer be used as a defense! Parents who pay to have their kids abused deserve to die! Enough said!
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Exhausted, if some Aspen kid said that some program is great, do you change your mind and get escorts to drag him out of bed at 3 am in handcuffs?I know the answer to that but I am trying to make a point.
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I asked the wrong person then because you seem to be a normal caring parent.
I'll tell you the best answer I ever got after years of asking was, "it was either that or you would have died, i did it to save your life". According to my parent this is the conversation end all. It's the ultimate righteous act that once attempted, can never receive criticism no matter the result. You know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Or course in my own head I know that I wasn't about to die, so it doesn't make any sense to me. It's all a matter of perception, in the case of my parent, a perversely skewed perspective. It's like that old horror story where you go into the hospital for stitches, and leave without your appendix, and the best explanation you get is, well sorry buddy, we save lives.
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I asked the wrong person then because you seem to be a normal caring parent.
I'll tell you the best answer I ever got after years of asking was, "it was either that or you would have died, i did it to save your life". According to my parent this is the conversation end all. It's the ultimate righteous act that once attempted, can never receive criticism no matter the result. You know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Or course in my own head I know that I wasn't about to die, so it doesn't make any sense to me. It's all a matter of perception, in the case of my parent, a perversely skewed perspective. It's like that old horror story where you go into the hospital for stitches, and leave without your appendix, and the best explanation you get is, well sorry buddy, we save lives.
Your parents know you aren't lying about what happened and they feel guilt, they just aren't ready to admit it yet, not to themselves or anyone else....I ask my mother all the time why didn't she care enough to pull the reins in on me, she denies it because she still doesn't care enough to let me have some sort of closure, I don't want to slate your parents because I dont know how you were or what was going on in their heads at the time, but you must try to deal with the fact you may NEVER get an answer, they may never admit this to themselves because it's too painful
One day my own kids may resent me because I refuse to send them to 'straighten up' I don't know, all i can do is try, try and try again
No Dr Evil it doesn't change my mind because I am determined to do this as a family, and now I also know how bad it can be - but none of you will ever get me to slate the parents who genuinely send their kids away because they believe it's a choice between life & death, I have to defend them on this.
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The only reason my father (one parent family) thought it was a life or death situation, was because he didn't know me. He was into dating his girls and hanging out with their kids (don't ask me why) maybe he got bored with us, but for whatever reason he wasn't around my teenage years. He knew me as the teen he wanted me to be, not for who I was. The reason so many parents freak out at the first sign of trouble, is because they have no clue what is really going on in their teenager's life. What they believe is a matter of life and death, is just tuesday, for their teen. Is this negligence and overreaction, or simply ignorance? I think it's more complicated than some parents would want others to believe.
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I think that depends on what the teen is doing, if you've got a 13 yo smoking a bit of pot and being rude, you've got a naughty but normal kid, if you've got a 9 yo carrying a knife and shooting up heroin, you have a life or death situation that you as a parent are not qualified to deal with
I'm sorry you feel your dad didn't take enough notice of you to actually know you as a person - my mum didn't either, luckily she was too lazy to send me to a program she was that uninterested!
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Guest, programme paremnts don't do it to their kids, the programs do, the parents sendd their kids away because they realy believe their kid will die in a horrific way if they don't take action, Milk is right that it doesn't make it right, but I certainly wouldn't slate anyone for trying to do whatever it takes to save their kid when they really really believe they are in danger...
Exhausted, the intentional abuse factor varies from (parental) unit to unit. The logic in inescapable.
There are some parents that desperately need a good kick in the head with a steel-toed boot. It's the 'rents that supply these places with what they need most in order to stay in operation -- MONEY!!
Soon, if I have my way, ignorance will no longer be an excuse and there will be horrible consequences dealt out & the blood of parental unit after unit will be spilled. Their kids will be standing there with knives and big ol' grins on their faces. Parents, your time has come. :skull:
I couldn't agree more; you're dead on! Ignorance should no longer be used as a defense! Parents who pay to have their kids abused deserve to die! Enough said!
Mmm, I didn't realize there were guys like this on this forum. Just don't tell me you boys are all talk and no action.
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I asked the wrong person then because you seem to be a normal caring parent.
I'll tell you the best answer I ever got after years of asking was, "it was either that or you would have died, i did it to save your life". According to my parent this is the conversation end all. It's the ultimate righteous act that once attempted, can never receive criticism no matter the result. You know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Can you imagine the guilt they would feel if they acknowledged the truth. Might it be too painful for them. Might they be protecting their psyche on some level? Imagine realizing that "I sent my kid off to be abused".
Or course in my own head I know that I wasn't about to die, so it doesn't make any sense to me. It's all a matter of perception, in the case of my parent, a perversely skewed perspective.
And who did the skewing? Put blame on the ed-cons and the program. As many kids as parents are used as "testimonials"/"sucess stories" on programmie websites. Nobody is invulnerable to brainwashing.
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And who did the skewing? Put blame on the ed-cons and the program. As many kids as parents are used as "testimonials"/"sucess stories" on programmie websites. Nobody is invulnerable to brainwashing.
Before a program, I blame AA, and my mom's alcoholism for turning my dad into a alanon AA fundamentalist before I could walk. It goes way back with him. :-? :cry: :rofl:
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THERE IS STILL NO EXCUSE TO REMAIN WILLINGLY IGNORANT OF WHAT IS DONE TO YOUR CHILD IN A PROGRAM!
:flame:
THERE IS NO EXCUSE TO BUY INTO THEIR NONSENSE SAYING YOU MSUT STAY IGNORANT OF WHAT THEY DO, AND TO NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOUR CHILD SAYS, AND TO VISIT WHEN THEY SAY SO!
PERIOD. THAT IS NEGLIGENCE!
There is also no excuse to not use google to check on these places if you find them on the internet in the first place, but oh well.
Scaring a parent into "we must help or they die" is one thing, scaring them into "We can't let you know what goes on, and as a matter of fact you can't even talk to your kid or believe them when they're allowed to speak to you" is completely different. There is a huge distinction.
If you have a kid in a program and you don't know, find the fuck out, or get your child out until you do. If you WERE fooled but now pulled your kid out, its time to get some therapy for the kid, time to do something about these places and sue them, go to the media, and go to ISAC, and its time to admit you messed up and start doing what you need to do...
...and thats all I have left to say on this subject.
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Scaring a parent into "we must help or they die" is one thing, scaring them into "We can't let you know what goes on, and as a matter of fact you can't even talk to your kid or believe them when they're allowed to speak to you" is completely different. There is a huge distinction.
Is it really? They've had a long time to rehearse. Here's what they say: "The first month we call the "honeymoon period" where the kids are just getting used to the program. Let's be honest, not many of the kids really want to be here, and they'll say anything to get out. You know how manipulative they can be. So here's what we do, we teach them that they have to earn everything. Many parents spoil their kids and that's what often gets them in this situation. We teach them that everything must be earned. If they are good, and following their program, they get to make a phone call, if not, you can get updates through his councelor. At any time you can mail them though, but I must warn you, many kids are bitter about being in program , and as a result often neglect to respond for a while."
you get the point. They have a good reason for everything and it all sounds plausible. With the hollowed out program kids chanting "we love this place", the smiling kids in the brochures, and the re-assuring staff, parents feel at ease. These people are expert expert cons. If they weren't so good, this industry would have tanked long ago. They make their living lying to parents, and they get to rehearse the same shtick every single day.
If you have a kid in a program and you don't know, find the fuck out, or get your child out until you do. If you WERE fooled but now pulled your kid out, its time to get some therapy for the kid, time to do something about these places and sue them, go to the media, and go to ISAC, and its time to admit you messed up
And how would that look for future employers. That was my parent's concern when I wanted to go public initially. "fucked up program reject" is what they would think. Just ask "Lunatic fringe" what happens to her when the judge finds out she was in Str8. Everybody believes the program. After all, they're professionals.
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And how would that look for future employers. That was my parent's concern when I wanted to go public initially. "fucked up program reject" is what they would think. Just ask "Lunatic fringe" what happens to her when the judge finds out she was in Str8. Everybody believes the program. After all, they're professionals.
Yeah, str8's not something you want to put on your resumé.
What happened??
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For one they're not professionals. Nobody had any credentials.
For two, Straight was CLOSED...??
For three, there is no Dx made by a doctor anywhere, so if they say that with no diagnosis and no credentials and no PhD (or even a masters...) any decent lawyer would poke holes in that.
Nevertheless, when I asked my own parents and my family members, they said they'd never fall for someone trying to cut off communication. I know at least some of them are cunning and distrustful eough to know better, but I guess some do get sucked in.
At any rate, if your kid is getting treated for depression, ADD, or whatever, why the fucking hell would you need to go through the "do anything to get out" thing anyway? Where the hell did that entire paradigm of "something necessary is painful and hard and anything hard and painful is necessary" come from anyway?
Ugh... there I go being logical again with my 20/20 "hindsight". I guess education is the only answer.
Regardless, anyone who comes HERE has no excuse, having seen what programs do to the kids, the staff, the parents, having links provided to all of the facts available, and being told point blank to get through the program bullshit and find out for themselves.
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also the "yo.u ne.eed to" = I want you to filter got me again.
lol.
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also the "yo.u ne.eed to" = I want you to filter got me again.
lol.
i noticed that before... i thought i was going insane. I kept going back and checking my post. WTF is that about?!?!?
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In a nutshell, when programmies tell someone YOU NE.ED TO its changed to "I WANT you to" to kind of disarm the words, I guess :lol:
The problem is that sometimes it can mess up other instances of "you need" :rofl:
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For one they're not professionals. Nobody had any credentials.
So. I can call myself a professional without qualifications. Nothing illegal about that. I can set up a school in California by filling out a form, and signing it "Micky Mouse". i did mean to put the "professionals" in quotations though. it was sarcasm.
My point is that parents often assume that since these schools are referred to by "certified" educational consultants, they must be legit. They assume a lot. My parents assumed counselors would have been licensed. Lots of parents assume there are safeguards in place when in reality there are few, and those that exist are not enforced.
For two, Straight was CLOSED...??
Still blows to have a program on your resumé. I went through two years of the shittiest college in Virginia because I had a "Redlands Adult School" HS diploma. Try explaining that shit to a decent college: "well i was in this place.. and ...well what were you there for.. you wouldn't believe me if i told you...we know why you were there you worthless junkie scum"(i was there for the stupidest reason ever... just don't ask. Hint: not drugs/alcohol) Now, after two years, and a year off at a job, i'm back in an ok college... Still. It's nothign compared to where i would be had i been able to graduate high school at a reputable place.
Oh. And try getting a security clearance, and having the school tell the investigators "he wrote inflamatory things about us on the internet"(well why didn't you sue fucktards). Program can fuck your life up logistically in all sorts of ways. It matters little if the place is still open or not.
For three, there is no Dx made by a doctor anywhere, so if they say that with no diagnosis and no credentials and no PhD (or even a masters...) any decent lawyer would poke holes in that.
Yeah. so what's your point. There's no diagnosis, and there's no treatment either. It's "emotional growth". Most programs (not all) are careful about the wording of their advertising literature to avoid technically claiming to provide therapy. Whether they can say "therapeutic" is up to the lawyers to quibble over.
Nevertheless, when I asked my own parents and my family members, they said they'd never fall for someone trying to cut off communication. I know at least some of them are cunning and distrustful eough to know better, but I guess some do get sucked in.
Programs are not always as advertised. I was told i would be able to write my GF. nope. call her too. nope. use my computer, nope. False advertising all over the map. And once you've aggreed to it all, paid for 6 months in advance(with a 5 day refund period, and a no phone calls for the first 30 days), what can you do? Parents think "well it can't be that bad, he hasn't written us about it(gee i wonder why)". They think "we've already paid for it, and other students are doing fine, why can't my son?"
Go ahead and think your parents can't be conned. My mom was a PO, dealt with criminals and con artists on a daily basis, and even she wa sucked in.
From my experience, the more arrogant, the more overconfident you are, the more intelligent -- the easier it is to manipulate your mind. Ask a hypnotist. The more intelligent, the easier to hypnotize. Everybody breaks at some point. No exceptions. It has to do with hope, and other emotions rather than rational thought.
At any rate, if your kid is getting treated for depression, ADD, or whatever, why the fucking hell would I want you to go through the "do anything to get out" thing anyway? Where the hell did that entire paradigm of "something necessary is painful and hard and anything hard and painful is necessary" come from anyway?
"emotional growth". That's why. Not all parents get the "dead insane in-jail" shtick right off the bat. They customize their delivery pitch to the parent. They make it sound right for everybody. Just look at the page source for any program homepage and look at the keywords they use.
Regardless, anyone who comes HERE has no excuse, having seen what programs do to the kids, the staff, the parents, having links provided to all of the facts available, and being told point blank to get through the program bullshit and find out for themselves.
That i aggree with you on.... unless they are flat out scared off the board once they get here *cough*...
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Well, Psy, you hit the nail right on the head there.
And I'll take the hint to not bite anyone's head off anymore... :)
We REALLY need some FAQs and stickies. Seriously.
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Well, Psy, you hit the nail right on the head there.
And I'll take the hint to not bite anyone's head off anymore... :)
We REALLY need some FAQs and stickies. Seriously.
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FAQs... now there's a seriously great idea. It would save a lot of typing.
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FAQ 1: Should I send my kid to a program?
Answer: No
FAQ 2: But I really really think I need a program, are you sure?
Answer: Yes
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:rofl:
I think I'm going to go around calling the above post the Official Fornits FAQ and link to it accordingly.
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FAQ 1: Should I send my kid to a program?
Answer: No
FAQ 2: But I really really think I need a program, are you sure?
Answer: Yes
I want to ask everyone is it really as black & white as this, are the shades of grey?
The reasoning behind my question is....
Does anyone know of, or can they find perhaps a suicide or a terrible outcome because their parents didn't send them to a program of some sort?
I know this is a little 'you will never know what would or wouldn't have happened either way'
I guess I just like to look at both sides of the story
Personally, if I hadn't had been taken into care myself, I hate to think how I would have turned out, although I was never put in an abusive situation by staff, the other kids pretty much did what they liked when no one else was around, but I will never regret having been taken away, and trust me, there is no program like brainwashing here, I just know I am grateful for it.
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No.
They don't provide therapy. They have zero evidence they do anything beneficial at all! Actually the programs just have zero FACT and evidence... period.
Obviously being black and white such as that without backing up what we have to say would be... well, stupid, and be stooping nearly as low as ST, but considering there is zero proof programs do anything good at all, zero proof any of the children in them need any help at all or have anything wrong, as there is no screening and no non-admissions, how can you say that?
How does a "emotional growth"/B.M. program prevent a suicide anyway?
How many people have committed suicide after a program, either showing it did not prevent it or it caused it? I dont know, Deborah has actually compiled a list and Im not gonna go look for that on this day, but there have been quite a few people who have died because of programs and not one person who it has been shown has been saved becuase of one.
Period.
Merry Christmas.
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but I will never regret having been taken away,
The government taking kids out of the home because of abuse or neglect isn't even remotely in the same ballpark as what we usually talk about here. The only thing the two concepts have in common is that the kids aren't at home anymore and.. that's seriously about it.
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Okay fair enough points:
2nd question: There's a lot said here about children who say they feel the program saved their lives, helped turn them around, they are eternally grateful to theior paremnts for sending them (I'm going to make TB an exception because that is just sick as hell)
It seems posters here straight away come to the conclusion that the kid says this because they are programmed to think that way, the whole 'fake it to make it'
How do we know if there are really kids who aren't faking it? That they really didn't know how to get out of that hole they were digging themselves? Surely of those who say this is the facts, 100% of them can't be just brainwashed program kids, can they? Or can they?
And Happy Xmas to you all, sorry it's a bit late in the day
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well, i would say how could anyone say that whatever they say helped them could not be achieved by local resources or whatever. that is part of the brainwashing, we are saving you etc., we are the only ones who can save you, also there are many programs who are close to tb in terms of abuse.
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It still seems you don't completely grasp how a program works, and what it does, to do what it does.
First of all, to re-iterate, it is NOT therapy, or therapeutic!Furthermore, they say they are not therapeutic and not set up to provide therapy! Any program that does so uses someone who is an actual therapist to give it to a kid on their 'campus'.
What a program does is "behavior modification" and "emotional growth". Behavior modification boils down to "do what we want and we won't hurt you, and we just might slowly give you back normal rights, but call them priviladges, you bad little kid!" and "emotional growth" is that nonsensical psycho-cryfest nonsense with the seminars and the loaded language and the mind-games, blah blah blah screaming until you cough up blood and thinking that emotional outbursts and the euphoria after traumatic events are 'good'.
Factor in the isolation from the outside world AND THEIR OWN PARENTS, in addition to telling everyone to not believe them and to EXPECT the child to try to escape the place, and you basically have something set up to keep the kid cut off from any means of escape or outreach to help, and to keep them in their own little 'program world'. Naturally, in those conditions, you can instigate any sort of "Behavior modification" (what we call brainwashing or mind control) you want. Why? You have all the essentials needed to do that!
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html) <- BITE model. Behavior, information, thoughts, emotions. Programs control how they behave, control what information gets to them, challenges and undermines their thoughts through the seminars, stress, isolation and loaded language, and also fucks with their emotions.
Waking up with someone shireking at you, and being forced to make a bed perfectly or face humiliation, physical punishment or more time in the program, marching "nut to butt" heel to toe to eat breakfast and finish the plate or you're threatened with more of the same from above for anorexia or whatever, then doing self-taught school work with no teacher, tons of 'worksheets' for any rules you have broken (and belive me, you've broken something) and forced to rat out everyone else to move up the program as well as their bullshit "raps", "propheets" or "seminars" does not fix anything, does not treat anything, does not prevent anything, except possibly a normal life.
Any changes that occur in a program is a function of their age. You grow up in your teens, no matter were you are while you are in that age!
Again, there is ZERO proof of changed recidivism for a program (except I have heard STRAIGHT increased drug use but I don't have the statistic on me, nor do I have the inclination to go look) and zero proof of any positive change or benefit at all to anyone except the people who own a program making money!
Someone can SAY that it saved them because if they were acting bad before a program, and get out and they don't, someone looking for some explanation or reason or meaning might pin it on the program, especially after being the programs property and having thier mind fucked with for such a long time and their pro-program family reinforcing it while they were still in the program, but again there is basically no justification or substance to such a statement.
Again, because there is no proof programs have done anything except warehouse a kid while he grows up (thats like saying WWASPS cured you of a cold if you were put in a program while you had a cold and when you got out you did not have one..) and say coallation is causation.
Additionally, I remember someone saying most kids who "go off the path" do so for 18 months said and done. Most people just need to act out in their teens anyway becuase they're teenagers and they're going from being a child to an adult even though society and thier parents don't want them to, and there is a lack of maturity as well.
Programs are very good at presenting themselves as a fix to certain death or failure (dead insane or in jail) but humanity got by fine without them, MOST people get by fine without programs (never heard of them or just can not afford them) and when they're gone we'll be fine as well. They just say they treat everything, prey on or create parental hysteria, and once they sink their teeth into a kid they use every hook they can to make sure the kid stays there and the money keeps rolling in.
Sorry to be so long winded but there is a lot to say.
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well, i would say how could anyone say that whatever they say helped them could not be achieved by local resources or whatever. that is part of the brainwashing, we are saving you etc., we are the only ones who can save you, also there are many programs who are close to tb in terms of abuse.
ALL 'programs' (isolation-based culty BM warehouses) are traumatizing becuase of the isolation and daily fear, humiliation and emotional attack, physical injury or not.
Tranquility Bay is worse because they can get away with more, and its apparently filthy, the diet really sucks and they do lots of restraint, O.P. and tropical diseases, but saying "not as bad as tranquilty bay" is like saying "not as bad as auschwitz". Its still double-plus-un-good!
But at any rate the whole "you need saving" thing can be easily drilled into someones head who has been stuck in 'saving' for a few months...
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It still seems you don't completely grasp how a program works, and what it does, to do what it does.
I am trying to learn Niles
Additionally, I remember someone saying most kids who "go off the path" do so for 18 months said and done. Most people just need to act out in their teens anyway becuase they're teenagers and they're going from being a child to an adult even though society and thier parents don't want them to, and there is a lack of maturity as well.
Programs are very good at presenting themselves as a fix to certain death or failure (dead insane or in jail) but humanity got by fine without them, MOST people get by fine without programs (never heard of them or just can not afford them) and when they're gone we'll be fine as well.
Well yer, in the UK we have serious teen yob culture going on - but we don't have programs here, yet (God forbid, read my post) and most teens turn out okay in the end, although there does seem to be a huge mental problem culture going on once into adulthood...me thinks it's because one can claim welfare rather than work due to mental health probs, either that or the fact we don't have programs, who knows? Hope we don't find out!
Sorry to be so long winded but there is a lot to say.
Not at all, I asked because I wanted to know, thank you.
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I explained that long winded reply because you're still learning. It wasn't an insult, just... you're still learning :P
It took me a long time to fully grasp all of this too, I've been here since about April 04.
UGH... I bet the programs have had at least one and a half full 'classes' of program kids come and go since then. Yuck.
But yeah, the UK is messed up, but on the OTHER side of the spectrum it seems. And just between you and me making light of actual mental problems is not a good thing. Whining and taking advantage of mental health programs and making everyone with actual issues look like whiners or not be able to get help isn't going to help anything :(
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About suicide and age. Having lived next to a person about 35 years of age who just had been to the hospital for a slow suicide attempt (Stopped taking vital medicine - would have killed her in two weeks), I will state that being suicidal has nothing to do with growing up. People at old people's home are commiting suicide. They just stop eat and drink. It took the grandmother of a relative 5 days to die from fluid in the lungs and she was 94 years old. (She had been partly paralysed due to a stroke and refused to eat and drink.) As it is custom in Denmark the hospital staffs accepts such a wish, so they allowed her to die.
Then there is alcohol and sex. I have told you about our laws in Denmark. A lot of children are introduced to alcohol at their confirmation. In old days children in Denmark were going to their first job as housemaid etc. when they were about 14-15 years old. They were regarded as partly adults. So until they reachs 16 years of age it is regarded as acceptable if the parents provide them with alcohol. When they are 16 years old, they can buy a ID-card at the city hall which enables them to buy alcohol on their own. It is a kind of trial period. Can they manage to drink and do their schoolwork? Most of them can and their parents can invest in a driving license for them. It is rather expensive in Denmark. (About 1000 dollars covering time a racing tracks before being trained in the streets.)
Our 16 years limit has resulted in the lowest casualty figures in the trafic since 1950, so it do work to let them find out how alcohol works at that age.
Why finds children it acceptable when they are sent somewhere? It seems that the staff in such places often are the first ones to talk with them. Some parents can not talk with their children - only to their children.
So they are sent away. It is a shock. But once many of them has overcome the shock, suddenly they find that someone is actually talking with them. Of course it is a skilled person (therapist) trained to make them believe that the staff at such places cares for them. They are simply tricked into believing that the staff cares for them.
The children are not faking it. Their own minds trick them. I have talked with several soldiers with have been in winter storms 30 years back losing toes in the cold. All they can remember now is the good time with buddies. Why is it so? Because our brain has a kind of protection mechanism. Hard times are wiped out, if the memory can hurt you. Even rapes done by sick parents are blocked out of a childs own brain so the child can survive.
Regrettably our brains store even the bad memories in our subconscious mind. They can come back by being provoked by a therapist or through nightmares.
Another sideeffect is the feeling of being abandoned. Some former students are unable to bond with people. The reason is very clear. They have lost their family once, so they will not bond to new people because then there is a person more which they could loose.
Generally I wont say that one named program is worse than others. But I will state that programs that allows both parents and the child to go the program together is way better than programs where the childs goes alone. I miss observation houses in your country as a method to fix a broken family. A lot of Danish family are ordered to leave their home a live in a semi-locked up environment where therapist look into how they live and interact. Some problems calls for a removal of the child from its home(drugs), but there is nothing that prevents the parents from following the child.
Then there is the lenght of the stay in a RTC. In Denmark our laws dictate both the length of the stay and to who a report of the use of restraints are going to. Every incident where restraints is used in a RTC has to be reported to authorities outside the facility. Every stay beyound 6 months has to be reported to the city hall. Politicians - not therapist - from the childs home town can come a visit the facility unannouce if they like to. And of course the most important detail: It is not the parents which sends a child to a RTC. It is our authorties (In fact politicians in the city hall based on reports from therapists.).
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Is that how I came across...making light of peples mental problems? :( Oh no, no no no, what with the mental issues my own son has? Not at all! mental illness is to me, worse than physical, I'd rather a smack in the mouth every day than mental torture
But it is fact that in this country, many many ppl take advantage of the can't see it so can't disprove it - and claim welfare on the back of that.....it's not caled the nanny state for no reason...really
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Seems the state of Denmark isn't so rotten anymore.
How did Denmark turn itself into what it is now? Whats the socio-cultural trigger for it? Learning the lesson the Nazis and the Eastern Bloc taught us for the better part of the 20th century or just some sort of post-modern enligthenment?
Exhausted - no....
What I was trying to say is I'm afraid that when the inevitable political REACTION happens they will come accross as anyone with mental illness will be a whiner trying to get out of this or that and severely cut any benefits, including those to people who need it. Not that YOU come accross that way.
And just FYI the USA is turning into a nanny state but in other ways. Mostly censorship nonsense. I really hate how people flip out about kids using "cuss words" (can't you say CURSE? You're a teacher!! anyway...) but then curse at their own children at home and to eachother. It really helped undermind my whole childlike awe of adults at an early age :rofl:
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What I was trying to say is I'm afraid that when the inevitable political REACTION happens they will come accross as anyone with mental illness will be a whiner trying to get out of this or that and severely cut any benefits, including those to people who need it. Not that YOU come accross that way.
Denmark's programs are government regulated? That seems to be the reason why it's all so different
The UK government are already cutting benefits from the people who actually need it because of the ones who dont, it's becoming more and more difficult to get welfare here, this country does seem to have adopted a huge over diagnoses problem though, everything is down to stress, anxiety, PTSD, I'm not saying these things don't exist, they do - but the average guy can die of a brain tumour quite easily because his headaches are generally put down to stress, we live in a stressful, fast paced world with technology racing ahead every day, life is stressful! Going to the doctor is stressful here, you get 3 minutes and you're out the door, wether you're dying in front of him/her or not (there is a story behind that) There does need to be some kind of balance here
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what niles said is right of course but just to add you have to consider some kids are more sensitive than others. one kid could stay at tb for a year and be better off than a kid who was in foster care for a year. that is something that is not talked about alot. INDIVIDUAL CHILDREN. But the main point is as niles said abuse is abuse one program is NEVER Beter than the other.
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Has anyone ever made an unbiased film about boot camps, programs etc? A factual one that takes in all sides of the story?
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How can you?
That's like trying to tell the history of Cambodia when giving the pro-massacre side equal weight.
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I don't know do I? I was just wondering if anyone has done a documentary or a film gathering as much evidence as possible, in the end it would of course come down to the viewer's own decision on what the 'right' thing to do really is.
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Has anyone ever made an unbiased film about boot camps, programs etc? A factual one that takes in all sides of the story?
Fornits is as close as it gets. The unfortunate side is someone can say "OMG THATS BIAS!!!" when we don't come up with non-existant facts supporting them, when they're intrinsically ineffective and abusive, and we don't spin stuff to support it for them!
You can't 'comprimise' something bad into something good for the sake of an arguement or some fallacious middleground.
This is the only place this is discussed openly, with no limits, with people who KNOW what is going on present, exhausted. This is what it is, this is how it is, this is what it does to people.
We're here during Christmas instead of with our families. That alone speaks volumes.
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*phew. fuckin dinner party finally over...* two in a row.
okay. now to answer this:
How do we know if there are really kids who aren't faking it?
Most of them, if they are out of program, aren't faking it. They believe program saved their lives. The BM (brainwashing) is still effective for a while after "release". Watch those "pro program" kids for a while. Most of them "blow up" after a few months / years.
I love quizzing these pro-program kids. it usually goes something like this:
Program kid: Program saved my life. If i wasn't sent there i'd be dead now.
Me:Why? How do you know that?
Program kid: Because i was headed in the wrong direction.
Me: How can you possably predict the future: what might have been? And how did program change that future for you?
Program kid: Program gave me the tools i need to succeed... they saved my life.
Me: What tools exactly are you talking about?
Program kid: .... look... i don't know... but they helped me and i know that?
Me: *bangs head on keyboard* So you think being publicly humiliated helped you? So you think making your [private issue] subject to public discussion and ridicule helped you grow emotionally? You think living on the streets, having never done any drugs before that, yet turning into a junkie because you had nothing left to lose, helped you?
Program kid: Those things had to happen to make me who I am today, and I am thankful to be given the opportunity to learn those lessons. I'm stronger for it. Look. I know they helped me and there is nothing you can do to convince me otherwise.
Me: Are you truly Stronger? or completely numb... shut off... Can you live without your Saviour holding you up on crutches: on the beliefs know are false but cling to to survive? Can you face the pain... the knowledge that those who you looked up to were actually just using you?
To explain the above: In program, every problem, from depression to ADHD becomes an "addiction". "falling back into old behavior" is called a "relapse". They emphasize the AA philosophy that recovery never ends, that there is no cure for [generic problem]. They emphasize that without the program: you will die. Many program kids, after leaving program, fear that if they reject the program or it's philosophies, they will doom themselves. The program becomes the reason you are alive.
Another possability. There is usually a different story behind theses "testimonials" or positive responses from ex-program kids. There are some, however, that were allowed to suceed:
[quote=""my website's (http://http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/":2dbybrk2) intro"]You may wonder, ?well what of the 'success stories?'? in which the program completion time is carefully emphasized (http://http://www.benchmarkyoungadultschool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=1). If you've ever spent time at a carnival you know that that any carnie can easily demonstrate that somebody ?can? win in order to lure you into playing more or avoid getting arrested. You might even be allowed to win the first time, to hook you into thinking you can win more. Benchmark always makes sure there is at least one or two exceptions so they can easily deny accusations of fraud with brainwashed eye-witness students who repeating obediently on command: ?I love it here, they treat us fantastically and are fair in their punishments. They've saved my life. Without them I'd be dead, insane, or in jail (http://http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:qWfDhgqoIawJ:kathymoya.com/FICA/Research/programpsychology/con_game.htm).? From that student's perspective, the assessment is probably correct, however it is most definitely not the norm. The student allowed to succeed, carefully cherry picked for maximum marketing impact, is often oblivious to just how easy he has it. As an ?investment? the chosen student more than makes up for the lost tuition by the new batch of warm bodies the testimonial brings.[/quote]
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"cuss words" (can't you say CURSE? You're a teacher!! anyway...)
This has a Biblical origin. Somewhere in the old testiment (i forget where) it says not to "curse" so people that take the bible literally ( :silly: ) believe that even the word "curse" should not be uttered. Of course the definition, context, etc.... were all different but ...
I know this because i grew up in and around a lot of fundies and was corrected on many occasions for not saying "cuss" instead of "curse". I got a good long lecture when i blurted out "asshole" one time. It's probably good I never learned the F word until i was 11. (homeschooled)
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So the kid in question has survived the program and is doing well in life....does it matter wether they in that state of mind because they have been programmed to believe it or wether it is fact or not?
Personally I'd love for someone to be able to implant something in my brain and take away all bad memories, fears, worries from the past and present if it made me more stable & happier in myself
I'm not suggesting abuse makes it okay to get the end result before y'all start jumping all over me, I'm saying, if they truly believe they have been helped and are happy, then why not let them think that?
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Personally I'd love for someone to be able to implant something in my brain and take away all bad memories, fears, worries from the past and present if it made me more stable & happier in myself
Be extremely careful what you wish for.
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because it would be like saying you wish someone to have altzeimer's so they do not have to suffer knowing the truth.
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So the kid in question has survived the program and is doing well in life....does it matter wether they in that state of mind because they have been programmed to believe it or wether it is fact or not?
Although i tried to make the example as generic as possible, i did base it partially on somebody i know. To answer your question about the kid in question... i will be as vague as possable:
Does it matter how? Staff told this girl she looked like a boy and forced her to change her dress habits. They tried to primp her up. (i imagine her parents complained about it). They made her sing "santa baby" in a skimpy santa outfit in front of everybody at the christmas party. She did NOT want to do that.
She was sent to program for depression and some compulsive behaviours. She had never tried drugs. She was a virgin. She didn't smoke. She didn't drink...
The person in question who "survived" the program ended up on the streets, (parents wouldn't take her back when she ran away). With nothing else to lose, she turned to meth, and got heavy into it. After several years, she decided to go into the army to get clean. It worked.
Did she have to go through that? do the ends justify the means? I keep telling myself there are no stupid questions... but "does it matter wether they in that state of mind because they have been programmed to believe it or wether it is fact or not?" pushes the envelope. No offense. But i think you see my point.
It is an issue of free will. An issue of reality. An issue of whether I am talking to the friend I knew, or a shell running a program. You seem to forget that the program works by obliterating your self concept, overwriting it with an entirely different identity. It's essentially psychic murder... a hijacking. a burglery, a violation of the mind, a mind rape, a mind fuck. You see why the term is used here so much?
Personally I'd love for someone to be able to implant something in my brain and take away all bad memories, fears, worries from the past and present if it made me more stable & happier in myself
Be careful what you wish for. Are you sure you would want to give up your free will.... let somebody into your mind to tinker with things.
Here's what you can do, and what you are obligated to do: As a survivor, you bear witness for those who cannot speak for themselves. It might be different if the things that happen in programs today were no longer happening but i see it like this: If you know about abuse, and you do nothing to prevent it from happening again and again, you are as culpable as the abusers themselves.
Take your pain, and turn in into something positive, use your knowledge and experience of what happened to you to make sure it doesn't happen to others.
If you can't forget, it is for a reason...
If you choose to ignore, it is selfish...
I'm not suggesting abuse makes it okay to get the end result before y'all start jumping all over me, I'm saying, if they truly believe they have been helped and are happy, then why not let them think that?
Whoops. should have read the whole message... shit. well.
Why? Like i said above. It is an issue of personal identity and truth. Running a program is not living.. and I don't like seeing my friends into such a computerized state.
"I'd rather be a free man in my grave
than living as a puppet or a slave" - Bob Dylan (i think)
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"cuss words" (can't you say CURSE? You're a teacher!! anyway...)
This has a Biblical origin. Somewhere in the old testiment (i forget where) it says not to "curse" so people that take the bible literally ( :silly: ) believe that even the word "curse" should not be uttered. Of course the definition, context, etc.... were all different but ...
I know this because i grew up in and around a lot of fundies and was corrected on many occasions for not saying "cuss" instead of "curse". I got a good long lecture when i blurted out "asshole" one time. It's probably good I never learned the F word until i was 11. (homeschooled)
Oh, I know the biblical origin... that's why I wish they would say CURSE instead of 'cuss'!
At any rate, I curse like a fuckin' sailor, so I don't care if they tell me to watch my god-damned mouth. Well, that and PEN AND TELLER debunked the whole 'watch your mouth' twits who get all pissed off becuase of a subjective auditory emission :rofl:
To me, using 'foul language' is not bad. To be malicious or mean to another person or degrading is bad. Tearing someone down without a curse word is not good! And I can say "happy fucking birthday" and not be mean!
But I'm getting off topic at any rate... and I HATE loaded language. Speak what you mean, dammit.
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They made her sing "santa baby" in a skimpy santa outfit in front of everybody at the christmas party. She did NOT want to do that.
That in a nutshell (IMHO...) is a program's idea of 'therapy' and 'emotional growth' in a nutshell, it seems to me.
Lets all face it dramatically and all have a sobfest afterwards and have lots and lots of humiliation! This is also a good example of how these places can be so abusive without even needing to hit anyone.
BTW, how did the rest of that party go?