Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Elan School => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 01, 2006, 03:09:30 AM
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This board is pretty funny.
Ok I lied. It isnt funny at all.
I graduated Elan In October of 2001 after serving 14 months.
Elan was a scarry place to be.
But it had nothing to do with the people, or the program.
Witnessing the September 11th terrorist attacks made being in Elan very unsettling.
October 28th, I enlisted in the Marines and reported for basic training on January 15th 2002 at Parris Island South Carolina.
After basic training, I was moved to San Diego for tactical weapons training.
I spent 16 months working my ass off, learned how to hit a target with a bullet from 2000 yards away, and learned how to be invisible.
On August 4th, 2004 I boarded a plane.
6 days, 5 planes, two helicopters, and 4 continents later, I was in Iraq.
I was 22 years old, in a foreign country full of people who hated me.
Ive been home for 12 days.
While I was there, I saw children die. I saw children kill. I saw children suffer, and steal. I saw adults rape children, beat children, and I saw children as young as 13 give birth to more children. I saw some of those children starved to death, or burried in a hole at birth. I saw children who did the same thing every day. Beg for food, beg for water. Mothers begged me to shoot their children.
I was forced to kill children as young as 16.
If they had a weapon, and discharged that weapon, I was ordered to terminate them.
Period.
4 months ago I was shot in the head.
Nothing on the left side of my body works any more.
I spent 1 month in Germany, and 2 months in a US military hospital in London.
I have absolutely nothing to complain about except one thing.
What the fuck did any of you do after Elan?
What the fuck have you done for someone else after our country was attacked, and almost 3000 people died in New York City?
What the fuck have you been doing while 3000+ US soldiers have been killed in Iraq?
Sitting in here complaining about some guy named Marty?
Making up some stupid fucking story about Art, and Dave, and Phil and Bob and Joe fucking blow?
What the fuck do ANY of you have to complain about?
A silly fucking school in Maine that treated you with little or no respect? How many of you fucks deserved respect?
For what? Because your a fucking human being?
You assholes had a warm fucking bed to sleep in every night. You had food, you had television.
You had someone else PAYING for you to be in Elan regardless if they knew what goes on there or not.
Most of all, you fucks had an END in sight.
I went to Elan because I fucked up.
Illinois paid for me to be in Elan.
Let me rephrase that. Illinois TAXPAYERS paid for me to be in Elan.
I joined the military to pay Illinois back with my service regardless of the fact that I didnt like Elan, and Elan is a fucked up place I learned that nothing, even what you dont want is free.
Nobody in Elan is a demon. theres not one staff member there who wouldnt give up thier happiness for yours. I doubt anyone can disagree because every staff member in Elan gives up a normal life to BE a staff member.
Whether they did a good job with YOU or not, are they due a "thanks for trying"
They didnt fucking put you there! They didnt decide if you needed to be in Elan or not.
You fucking people are lost.
If you care so much about Elan and the children that are exposed to the people and the practices there tell me, what the fuck do you DO about it?
Join a website called "Fornits" and complain about what YOU went through. FUCK what YOU went through. Nobody fucking cares, especially when you are all foul mouthed disrespectful anonymous fucking punks who dont have the BALLS to stand up and say
THIS IS MY NAME AND THIS IS HOW I FEEL.
I thought I hated Elan once until I got back into the real world.
Heres what the real world is.
Fight for your country who will let you sit and rot in a foreign hospital.
Fight for your country who doesnt even know your name.
Fight and die for a country that takes its freedom for granted so much that it abuses that freedom by participating in websites like these the SAY but never DO.
Fuck all you snivelers. All this shit, and then some more about how "FORNITS" could be such a productive place?
Bullshit.
Fornits will never beanything but a place for all you god damned crybabies to park you ass in a chair and complain.
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I see big words from an anoynmous from this point of view too.
You dare complain about us not logging in? But yet you don't identify yourself?
Hypocrit...
Are we suppose to feel sorry for you cause you decided to join the Marines and got seriously injured? Though I have great respect for all the men and women who are currently in tours of duty, don't come here and paint a bad picture of us just because you fell like you can.
Where were you when the 9-11 attacks took place? Oh yea, thats right you were in Elan. Thats the same dumb statement like me saying I was helping dig through the rubble finding surviors. Who the fuck are you to come and judge us?
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We don't complain about Marty. We ridicule him. Marty is too feeble-minded to complain about.
I agree with most of what you said except for the part about the staff "giving up their happiness" for ours. Some could care less if we were happy. Do you really think Tania Merette gave a shit?
While I respect your service to the country especially in light of a president's treason in sending you to get shot to Iraq for a bullshit war do you really think people are going to listen? You're wasting your breath.
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I see big words from an anoynmous from this point of view too.
You dare complain about us not logging in? But yet you don't identify yourself?
Hypocrit...
Are we suppose to feel sorry for you cause you decided to join the Marines and got seriously injured? Though I have great respect for all the men and women who are currently in tours of duty, don't come here and paint a bad picture of us just because you fell like you can.
Where were you when the 9-11 attacks took place? Oh yea, thats right you were in Elan. Thats the same dumb statement like me saying I was helping dig through the rubble finding surviors. Who the fuck are you to come and judge us?
Im not judging you, Im asking you what the fuck you have to complain about from your comfy fucking chair.
Paint a picture of you just because I can?
Youve been holding the fucking paint brush all along.
Yes, I dare to post anon and criticize you for doing the same because my comments have nothing to do with anons who DONT spew shit all over this board.
Its a little like war. I kill people who kill people.
Is that hypocrisy?
Sorry I didnt write my name on the bullet that shot you down.
And dont tell me this shit about your great respect for military. Every time someone has something objective to say about the people who fight for this country, it starts with "I'd like to say that I have great respect for the men and women of the military BUT..."
This isnt about me, its about you and the rest of the lazy no good crybabies here who run your fucking mouths about injustice but dont do a fucking thing to change it.
A bullshit war?
Tell me about a war that isnt bullshit. Saddam Hussein murdered thousands and thousands of people.
This war isnt about oil, or WMD its about an oppressive, murderous, corrupt dictatorship that threatened and took the lives of innocent people. Thousands of them.
This war is about providing all people with freedom and equal rights who have been denied the basic freedoms you take for granted.
Listening to you fucks and reading complaints about the war with your bandwagon ideas and theories is nauseating.
Tell me, if your president and his crew of cronies murdered your family for their religious views...If your president was the wealthiest person in your country because his resolve to competition was murder. If your president counterfeited millions and millions of dollars (exactly the way Hitler did) that drive your economy into the ground, if your president was appointed to office rather than voted by a majority...would you give a fucking rats ass who came to your country and took him to jail?
Would you give a shit who it was in your country attempting to make peace between the four major religious groups who have been killing each other far longer than your president has even been alive?
Would you give a fucking shit who was offering you and your children equal rights and freedom?
Shit the fuck up.
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Well, obviously a lot of people DO give a shit. That's why there's a civil war in Iraq now. Even the GOP recognizes that. In the past two days, Colin Powell and Newt Gingrich, STAUNCH Republicans who supported the war, said this war is bullshit and a failure.
And this isn't about spreading freedom or taking down terrorists. If that was the case, we'd go into Afghanistan or Pakistan. This is Bush getting revenge for his daddy's unfinished business and inflating claims of WMDs and spreading false truths about links between Iraq and al Qaeda.
Bush doesn't "spread freedom." He squashes it. Anyone with a brain knows that. This war is stupider than Vietnam and like Vietnam, the government KNOWS we can't win and stays there anyway. All because Bush is insecure about his legacy and his dick size.
You, Mr. Marine, are the one who doesn't support your own troops if you believe this horseshit. As a paralyzed vet, you'd be a lot more useful at the forefront of anti-war protests. Think about it.
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Tell me about a war that isnt bullshit. Saddam Hussein murdered thousands and thousands of people.
This war isnt about oil, or WMD its about an oppressive, murderous, corrupt dictatorship that threatened and took the lives of innocent people. Thousands of them.
This war is about providing all people with freedom and equal rights who have been denied the basic freedoms you take for granted
Very well said, I agree with your views 100%. Saddam was using Genocide on his own people.
Marty will always be that hi-yuh-yuh perverted Indian in my book.
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How many of you fucks deserved respect?
For what? Because your a fucking human being?
Um, yes.
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This war isnt about oil, or WMD its about an oppressive, murderous, corrupt dictatorship that threatened and took the lives of innocent people. Thousands of them.
This war is about providing all people with freedom and equal rights who have been denied the basic freedoms you take for granted.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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This board is pretty funny.
Ok I lied. It isnt funny at all.
I graduated Elan In October of 2001 after serving 14 months.
Elan was a scarry place to be.
But it had nothing to do with the people, or the program.
Witnessing the September 11th terrorist attacks made being in Elan very unsettling.
October 28th, I enlisted in the Marines and reported for basic training on January 15th 2002 at Parris Island South Carolina.
After basic training, I was moved to San Diego for tactical weapons training.
I spent 16 months working my ass off, learned how to hit a target with a bullet from 2000 yards away, and learned how to be invisible.
On August 4th, 2004 I boarded a plane.
6 days, 5 planes, two helicopters, and 4 continents later, I was in Iraq.
I was 22 years old, in a foreign country full of people who hated me.
Ive been home for 12 days.
While I was there, I saw children die. I saw children kill. I saw children suffer, and steal. I saw adults rape children, beat children, and I saw children as young as 13 give birth to more children. I saw some of those children starved to death, or burried in a hole at birth. I saw children who did the same thing every day. Beg for food, beg for water. Mothers begged me to shoot their children.
I was forced to kill children as young as 16.
If they had a weapon, and discharged that weapon, I was ordered to terminate them.
Period.
4 months ago I was shot in the head.
Nothing on the left side of my body works any more.
I spent 1 month in Germany, and 2 months in a US military hospital in London.
I have absolutely nothing to complain about except one thing.
What the fuck did any of you do after Elan?
What the fuck have you done for someone else after our country was attacked, and almost 3000 people died in New York City?
What the fuck have you been doing while 3000+ US soldiers have been killed in Iraq?
Sitting in here complaining about some guy named Marty?
Making up some stupid fucking story about Art, and Dave, and Phil and Bob and Joe fucking blow?
What the fuck do ANY of you have to complain about?
A silly fucking school in Maine that treated you with little or no respect? How many of you fucks deserved respect?
For what? Because your a fucking human being?
You assholes had a warm fucking bed to sleep in every night. You had food, you had television.
You had someone else PAYING for you to be in Elan regardless if they knew what goes on there or not.
Most of all, you fucks had an END in sight.
I went to Elan because I fucked up.
Illinois paid for me to be in Elan.
Let me rephrase that. Illinois TAXPAYERS paid for me to be in Elan.
I joined the military to pay Illinois back with my service regardless of the fact that I didnt like Elan, and Elan is a fucked up place I learned that nothing, even what you dont want is free.
Nobody in Elan is a demon. theres not one staff member there who wouldnt give up thier happiness for yours. I doubt anyone can disagree because every staff member in Elan gives up a normal life to BE a staff member.
Whether they did a good job with YOU or not, are they due a "thanks for trying"
They didnt fucking put you there! They didnt decide if you needed to be in Elan or not.
You fucking people are lost.
If you care so much about Elan and the children that are exposed to the people and the practices there tell me, what the fuck do you DO about it?
Join a website called "Fornits" and complain about what YOU went through. FUCK what YOU went through. Nobody fucking cares, especially when you are all foul mouthed disrespectful anonymous fucking punks who dont have the BALLS to stand up and say
THIS IS MY NAME AND THIS IS HOW I FEEL.
I thought I hated Elan once until I got back into the real world.
Heres what the real world is.
Fight for your country who will let you sit and rot in a foreign hospital.
Fight for your country who doesnt even know your name.
Fight and die for a country that takes its freedom for granted so much that it abuses that freedom by participating in websites like these the SAY but never DO.
Fuck all you snivelers. All this shit, and then some more about how "FORNITS" could be such a productive place?
Bullshit.
Fornits will never beanything but a place for all you god damned crybabies to park you ass in a chair and complain.
Congratulations for being a true american hero. Also a heartfelt thank you and I hope you recover fully from your disability. Before you judge the people that whine about their TC experience, contemplate the possibility that some may not have been prepared to deal with the situation the way you did. Personally I got out of Elan much the way I went in. Skeptical of the way I was being guided by authority figures. I always knew what I wanted to do, but I couldn't find anyone to help me get there. Anyway I also joined the military after elan,was a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne division,stationed at Ft. Bragg, N.C. and went for a ride to Grenada. Nothing compared to what todays G.I.'s are seeing. When I was in Elan I witnessed people being treated inhumanely by people who were not qualified to deal with mental illness. It was very disturbing. Surely you can understand that. I assume that you were there in the last 10 years and from what I've learned here things have changed there considerably. Maybe if you have the free time we could discuss how the program works now and your opinions about it's benefits. I am so sorry you had to take a bullet in the head,because of some scumbags oppression. I hope you got at least a silver star, and make sure you use you govt benefits
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Well, obviously a lot of people DO give a shit. That's why there's a civil war in Iraq now. Even the GOP recognizes that. In the past two days, Colin Powell and Newt Gingrich, STAUNCH Republicans who supported the war, said this war is bullshit and a failure.
And this isn't about spreading freedom or taking down terrorists. If that was the case, we'd go into Afghanistan or Pakistan. This is Bush getting revenge for his daddy's unfinished business and inflating claims of WMDs and spreading false truths about links between Iraq and al Qaeda.
Bush doesn't "spread freedom." He squashes it. Anyone with a brain knows that. This war is stupider than Vietnam and like Vietnam, the government KNOWS we can't win and stays there anyway. All because Bush is insecure about his legacy and his dick size.
You, Mr. Marine, are the one who doesn't support your own troops if you believe this horseshit. As a paralyzed vet, you'd be a lot more useful at the forefront of anti-war protests. Think about it.
Enjoy your anon status.
Youre obviously influenced by liberal media. Conspiracy theorists. And delusion.
Youre an idiot. You say GW is finishing his dads business. WHAT business?
SR went to Iraq to defend Saudi Arabia moron.
Saddam was removed from power by the US because Saddam is a murderous dictator and was a legitimate threat to peace in the middle east.
You think its a worthless war only because you have no IDEA what is going on there.
Heres a hint moron. The UN did not give unilateral support to a declaration of war NOT because it doubted or questioned the legitimacy of removing Hussein....
Several UN countries had, and still have monetary interest in Iraq.
Try to picture reality for just a second. The war in Iraq would still exist if the US and its allies left. There are 4 different groups who want not only control, but simply a voice in government. Some of these groups are radical, violent, and murderous.
Then theres insurgents. Iranians, Turks, etc. Who would LOVE to take control of Iraqs resources. If the US pulled out now the middle east would erupt in violence murder and genocide.
Whats so difficult to understand about that?
You armchair theorists with your "the war is illegal"
Just because you heard it on the TV doesnt mean its anywhere near accurate idiot.
The US and many other countries removed Saddam from power as a final option. SR didnt "fail" to finish a job asshole, and if thats your reasoning, how would it have been OK if SR DID "finish the job"during the dessert shield campaign?
You are an idiot and know nothing about this war and the US involvement. Shut up and eat your corn flakes.
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..But this isnt about the war and your uneducated opinion of it or that you'd prefer to jump on a conspiracy theory bandwagon because youre too stupid to seek the truth by your own means.
Its not about the fact that you are a fucking idiot and know nothing about why your country is in the middle east.
Its not about the fact that you are a fucking SHEEP and a victim of popular media.
Its about the fact that your a crybaby. Elan this and Elan that, Marty this and Marty that. Art this and Art that.
Just because soldiers fight and die together doesnt mean they like each other. We work towards a common goal.
You people have no idea about functional relationships. You all lash out at each other, and ridicule each other, critisize each other with insults and pure fucking vulgar fiction.
This is about Elan, not YOUR opinion of the people who went there and your vulgar musings.
Agree to disagree and get back to the goal of this site. To confront the people responsible for doing what they do to children and either stick up for whats going on there, or do something to change it instead of running your fucking mouth..
Selfish fucks.
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How many of you fucks deserved respect?
For what? Because your a fucking human being?
Um, yes.
Uhhm, no stupid.
Just because youre a human being doesnt mean you deserve anything more than the air you fucking breath...
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..But this isnt about the war and your uneducated opinion of it or that you'd prefer to jump on a conspiracy theory bandwagon because youre too stupid to seek the truth by your own means.
Its not about the fact that you are a fucking idiot and know nothing about why your country is in the middle east.
Its not about the fact that you are a fucking SHEEP and a victim of popular media.
Its about the fact that your a crybaby. Elan this and Elan that, Marty this and Marty that. Art this and Art that.
Just because soldiers fight and die together doesnt mean they like each other. We work towards a common goal.
You people have no idea about functional relationships. You all lash out at each other, and ridicule each other, critisize each other with insults and pure fucking vulgar fiction.
This is about Elan, not YOUR opinion of the people who went there and your vulgar musings.
Agree to disagree and get back to the goal of this site. To confront the people responsible for doing what they do to children and either stick up for whats going on there, or do something to change it instead of running your fucking mouth..
Selfish fucks.
:tup:
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Well, obviously a lot of people DO give a shit. That's why there's a civil war in Iraq now. Even the GOP recognizes that. In the past two days, Colin Powell and Newt Gingrich, STAUNCH Republicans who supported the war, said this war is bullshit and a failure.
And this isn't about spreading freedom or taking down terrorists. If that was the case, we'd go into Afghanistan or Pakistan. This is Bush getting revenge for his daddy's unfinished business and inflating claims of WMDs and spreading false truths about links between Iraq and al Qaeda.
Bush doesn't "spread freedom." He squashes it. Anyone with a brain knows that. This war is stupider than Vietnam and like Vietnam, the government KNOWS we can't win and stays there anyway. All because Bush is insecure about his legacy and his dick size.
You, Mr. Marine, are the one who doesn't support your own troops if you believe this horseshit. As a paralyzed vet, you'd be a lot more useful at the forefront of anti-war protests. Think about it.
Enjoy your anon status.
Youre obviously influenced by liberal media. Conspiracy theorists. And delusion.
Youre an idiot. You say GW is finishing his dads business. WHAT business?
SR went to Iraq to defend Saudi Arabia moron.
Saddam was removed from power by the US because Saddam is a murderous dictator and was a legitimate threat to peace in the middle east.
You think its a worthless war only because you have no IDEA what is going on there.
Heres a hint moron. The UN did not give unilateral support to a declaration of war NOT because it doubted or questioned the legitimacy of removing Hussein....
Several UN countries had, and still have monetary interest in Iraq.
Try to picture reality for just a second. The war in Iraq would still exist if the US and its allies left. There are 4 different groups who want not only control, but simply a voice in government. Some of these groups are radical, violent, and murderous.
Then theres insurgents. Iranians, Turks, etc. Who would LOVE to take control of Iraqs resources. If the US pulled out now the middle east would erupt in violence murder and genocide.
Whats so difficult to understand about that?
You armchair theorists with your "the war is illegal"
Just because you heard it on the TV doesnt mean its anywhere near accurate idiot.
The US and many other countries removed Saddam from power as a final option. SR didnt "fail" to finish a job asshole, and if thats your reasoning, how would it have been OK if SR DID "finish the job"during the dessert shield campaign?
You are an idiot and know nothing about this war and the US involvement. Shut up and eat your corn flakes.
Very well said. I couldn't have said it any better. The people complaining about the war are nothing but liberal democrap jackasses who want to give away money to the lazy poor ghetto trash and raise taxes and fuck up the economy even more.
If the US hadn't taken action against Saddam, the outcome would have progressed far worse. We the United States don't use Genocide on our people, we are civil and often to generous of a nation.
Our Nation was at a risk from these Terroists, 9-11 is a perfect example Bunch of fuckin idiot cowards that blow themselves up thinking that they will go to a better place and be allowed to bring 10 close relatives/ friends with them.
Taking over Iraq was a great descion and stopping Saddam and holding him accountable was another great descion.
You were there, and you know the truth because you experienced first hand what it is like over there.
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Very well said. I couldn't have said it any better
No shit you couldnt have said it any better, because your a fucking moron.
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Enjoy your anon status.
Enjoy yours.
Youre obviously influenced by liberal media. Conspiracy theorists. And delusion.
You're obviously influenced by a liar, control freak and a war mongerer.
Youre an idiot. You say GW is finishing his dads business. WHAT business?
SR went to Iraq to defend Saudi Arabia moron.
Kuwait actually, but hey....you haven't let the facts stand in the way of your opinions yet.
Saddam was removed from power by the US because Saddam is a murderous dictator and was a legitimate threat to peace in the middle east.
Saddam is a murderous dictator, yes but he was no where near a legitimate threat to peace until "W" decided to go in and "liberate" his people. Iraq was not the hotbed of terrorism that it has become since our "liberation".
You think its a worthless war only because you have no IDEA what is going on there.
I know plenty of what's going on there. I come from a military family and I read. And not mainstream media either. You have to dig for facts.
Heres a hint moron. The UN did not give unilateral support to a declaration of war NOT because it doubted or questioned the legitimacy of removing Hussein....
Several UN countries had, and still have monetary interest in Iraq.
Finish your thought, moron. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Try to picture reality for just a second. The war in Iraq would still exist if the US and its allies left. There are 4 different groups who want not only control, but simply a voice in government. Some of these groups are radical, violent, and murderous.
Then theres insurgents. Iranians, Turks, etc. Who would LOVE to take control of Iraqs resources. If the US pulled out now the middle east would erupt in violence murder and genocide.
Whats so difficult to understand about that?
A lot of what you say here is true but the reason why it would be that way if we left is because we went in and made such a mess of it in the first place. What's so difficult to understand about that?
You armchair theorists with your "the war is illegal"
Just because you heard it on the TV doesnt mean its anywhere near accurate idiot.
"W" took us to war under false pretenses. "WMDs are there! We know for a fact where they are" :roll:
The US and many other countries removed Saddam from power as a final option. SR didnt "fail" to finish a job asshole, and if thats your reasoning, how would it have been OK if SR DID "finish the job"during the dessert shield campaign?
Yes he did. It would be different because Saddam would have been removed from power back then. You seem to have problems with simple reading comprehension.
You are an idiot and know nothing about this war and the US involvement. Shut up and eat your corn flakes.
You're an idiot who thinks he knows all there is to know about this war and the US involvement. Shut up and go polish your pretty, pretty guns.
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Sorry, I had a hard time getting past "War Mongerer"
:rofl:
Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, what difference does it make. If Iraq gained control of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia was next on the list.
Keep digging for your facts....over 500 WMD have been found since US military occupation of Iraq.
Saddam sold components on the open market (terrorists)
He also planned to use them for a new campaign in Kuwait.
Whats in between Kuwait and Iraq?......Saudi Arabia. Duh. More Saudi lives were lost when Iraq pursued Kuwait.
SR had UN support to keep Iraqis out of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (You cant get to Kuwait without going through SA)
So as for your "unfinished business" theory is concerned...its invalid. The UN did not approve anything more than a defense effort.
The rest of your post is irrelevant and rhetoric. Like most liberal fucking unsolicited commentary based on "conspiracy theories, media spin, and delusion"
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Kuwait is between Iraq and Saudi Arabia kids.
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Keep digging for your facts....over 500 WMD have been found since US military occupation of Iraq.
Keep spinning yours. No useable WMDs. The smattering that were found were so old and deteriorated the were of no use.
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Like most liberal fucking unsolicited commentary based on "conspiracy theories, media spin, and delusion"
I don't buy into conspiracy theories and I'm not a liberal.
Typical kneejerk reaction of your kind though. You see things as black and white, us and them. I look at individual situations, circumstances and people before forming an opinion on any given matter.
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Very well said. I couldn't have said it any better
No shit you couldnt have said it any better, because your a fucking moron.
No, your mother is a moron, she gave birth to you.
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I love it how conservatives use the word "liberal" as if it's an insult. Being forward-thinking, open-minded, generous, compassionate and progressive is hardly a bad thing. Society's trends have almost invariably turned more liberal over any significant period of time.
I'm proud to be a liberal.
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i say it to vietnam vets, i say it to you,
thank you
but words are meaningless in such a situation,as proud as the marines can be, they still got used. you got injured for haliburton, and the american political machine. bush has put the E at the end of the marine corps .
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Yahoo! News
Panel: Bush Iraq policy 'not working'
By ANNE PLUMMER FLAHERTY and DAVID ESPO, Associated Press Writers 1 minute ago
President Bush's policy in Iraq "is not working," a high-level commission said bluntly on Wednesday, prodding the administration to embrace diplomacy to stabilize the country and allow withdrawal of most combat troops by early 2008.
After four years of war and the deaths of more than 2,900 U.S. troops, the situation is "grave and deteriorating," and the United States' ability "to influence events within Iraq is diminishing," the commission warned in an unsparing report.
It recommended the United States reduce "political, military or economic support" for Iraq if the government in Baghdad cannot make substantial progress toward providing for its own security.
President Bush received the report in an early morning meeting at the White House with commission members. He pledged to treat each proposal seriously and act in a "timely fashion."
He was flanked by the commission's co-chairmen, former Secretary of State James A. Baker III, and former Rep. Lee Hamilton in a remarkable scene ? a president praising the work of a group that had just concluded his policy had led to chaos.
"Many Americans are understandably dissatisfied," Hamilton said later at a news conference that marked the formal release of the results of the commission's eight-month labors.
"There is no magic bullet," said Baker.
The report painted a grim picture of Iraq nearly four years after U.S. forces toppled Saddam Hussein. It urged Bush to embrace steps he has thus far rejected, including involving Syria and Iran in negotiations over Iraq's future.
It warned that if the situation continues to deteriorate, there is a risk of a "slide toward chaos (that) could trigger the collapse of Iraq's government and a humanitarian catastrophe."
"Neighboring countries could intervene. ... The global standing of the United States could be diminished. Americans could become more polarized," commissioners said.
With diplomacy under way, the report said, the U.S. should increase the number of combat and other troops that are embedded with and supporting Iraqi Army units.
"As these actions proceed, U.S. combat forces could begin to move out of Iraq," it said. "By the first quarter of 2008, subject to unexpected developments in the security situation on the ground, all combat brigades not necessary for force protection could be out of Iraq."
More broadly, the commission recommended a renewed push to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict, saying the United States cannot otherwise achieve its goals in the Middle East.
Baker, Hamilton and the other members of the commission traveled to the Capitol from the White House to present their findings to senior lawmakers. The report makes 79 separate recommendations on Iraq policy.
"If the president is serious about the need for change in Iraq, he will find Democrats ready to work with him in a bipartisan fashion to find a way to end the war as quickly as possible," said Rep. Nancy Pelosi (news, bio, voting record), the California Democrat who is in line to become speaker when the new Congress convenes in January.
The recommendations came at a pivotal time, with Bush under domestic pressure to change course and with the new, Democratic-controlled Congress certain to cast a skeptical look at administration policy.
Additionally, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, the architect of the administration's war policy, has resigned. His replacement, Robert Gates, is on track for Senate confirmation this week after a remarkable assessment of his own ? that the United States is not winning the war.
Bush has rejected establishing timetables for withdrawing the 140,000 U.S. troops and has said he isn't looking for "some kind of graceful exit out of Iraq."
There was no letup Wednesday in the killing in Iraq, where a mortar attack killed at least eight people and wounded dozens in a secondhand goods market. Police said the shelling was followed closely by a suicide bombing in the Sadr City Shiite district of the capital.
It was the type of violence that has led many to declare that Iraq is in the throes of a civil war ? an assessment that Bush has refused to accept.
By whatever name, Baker, Hamilton and the other eight members of the commission said the status quo was unacceptable.
"Violence is increasing in scope and lethality. It is fed by a Sunni Arab insurgency, Shiite militias, death squads, al-Qaida and widespread criminality. Sectarian conflict is the principal challenge to stability," the report said.
Bush said the report "gives a very tough assessment of the situation in Iraq. It is a report that brings some really very interesting proposals, and we will take every proposal seriously and we will act in a timely fashion."
He also urged members of Congress to give serious consideration to the recommendations.
"While they won't agree with every proposal, and we probably won't agree with every proposal, it nevertheless is an opportunity to come together and to work together on this important issue," he said.
The commission's recommendation to have U.S. forces embedded with Iraqi units reflects an approach the military already has been emphasizing in recent months. But administration officials say Iraqis are not yet ready to go it alone against the insurgency.
U.S. allies in the region, including the powerful Sunni leadership in Saudi Arabia, say the Arab-Israeli conflict underlies other Mideast problems and that rancor from the impasse makes other issues harder to solve.
The commission recommended that a "diplomatic offensive" be aimed at building an international consensus for stability in Iraq, and that it include every country in the region.
The United States accuses Syria and Iran of bankrolling terrorism and stirring up trouble in the region. The United States has had no diplomatic ties to Iran for nearly three decades, and pulled its ambassador from Syria last year.
Still, the commission said, "Given the ability of Iran and Syria to influence events within Iraq and their interest in avoiding chaos in Iraq, the United States should try to engage them constructively."
Ahead of the report's release, the White House said it would consider talking to Iran and Syria if the commission recommended it.
Yet the administration's overall tone has been one of skepticism about reaching accommodation with Tehran and Damascus. Administration officials have suggested there is more to lose than to gain by rewarding Iran and Syria with high-profile discourse with American diplomats, and warn that Iran in particular could try to use contact with U.S. officials to gain leverage in ongoing separate diplomacy over its nuclear program.
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Saudis are funding the Sunnis in Iraq
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061208/ap_ ... ency_saudi (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061208/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_insurgency_saudi)
CAIRO, Egypt - Private Saudi citizens are giving millions of dollars to Sunni insurgents in Iraq and much of the money is used to buy weapons, including shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles, according to key Iraqi officials and others familiar with the flow of cash.
Saudi government officials deny that any money from their country is being sent to Iraqis fighting the government and the U.S.-led coalition.
But the U.S. Iraq Study Group report said Saudis are a source of funding for Sunni Arab insurgents. Several truck drivers interviewed by The Associated Press described carrying boxes of cash from Saudi Arabia into Iraq, money they said was headed for insurgents.
Two high-ranking Iraqi officials, speaking on condition of 96 because of the issue's sensitivity, told the AP most of the Saudi money comes from private donations, called zaqat, collected for Islamic causes and charities.
Some Saudis appear to know the money is headed to Iraq's insurgents, but others merely give it to clerics who channel it to anti-coalition forces, the officials said.
In one recent case, an Iraqi official said $25 million in Saudi money went to a top Iraqi Sunni cleric and was used to buy weapons, including Strela, a Russian shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile. The missiles were purchased from someone in Romania, apparently through the black market, he said.
Overall, the Iraqi officials said, money has been pouring into Iraq from oil-rich Saudi Arabia, a Sunni bastion, since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq toppled the Sunni-controlled regime of
Saddam Hussein in 2003.
Saudi officials vehemently deny their country is a major source of financial support for the insurgents.
"There isn't any organized terror finance, and we will not permit any such unorganized acts," said Brig. Gen. Mansour al-Turki, a spokesman for the Saudi Interior Ministry. About a year ago the Saudi government set up a unit to track any "suspicious financial operations," he said.
But the Iraq Study Group said "funding for the Sunni insurgency comes from private individuals within Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states."
Saudi officials say they cracked down on zakat abuses, under pressure from the United States, after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington.
The Iraqi officials, however, said some funding goes to Iraq's Sunni Arab political leadership, who then disburse it. Other money, they said, is funneled directly to insurgents. The distribution network includes Iraqi truck and bus drivers.
Several drivers interviewed by the AP in Middle East capitals said Saudis have been using religious events, like the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca and a smaller pilgrimage, as cover for illicit money transfers. Some money, they said, is carried into Iraq on buses with returning pilgrims.
"They sent boxes full of dollars and asked me to deliver them to certain addresses in Iraq," said one driver, who gave his name only as Hussein, out of fear of reprisal. "I know it is being sent to the resistance, and if I don't take it with me, they will kill me."
He was told what was in the boxes, he said, to ensure he hid the money from authorities at the border.
The two Iraqi officials would not name specific Iraqi Sunnis who have received money from Saudi Arabia. But Iraq issued an arrest warrant for Harith al-Dhari, a Sunni opponent of the Iraqi government, shortly after he visited Saudi Arabia in October. He was accused of sectarian incitement.
Saudi Arabia is a key U.S. ally in the Middle East. The Iraq Study Group report noted that its government has assisted the U.S. military with intelligence on Iraq.
But Saudi citizens have close tribal ties with Sunni Arabs in Iraq, and sympathize with their brethren in what they see as a fight for political control ? and survival ? with Iraq's Shiites.
The Saudi government is determined to curb the growing influence of its chief rival in the region,
Iran. Tehran is closely linked to Shiite parties that dominate the Iraqi government.
Saudi officials say the kingdom has worked with all sides to reconcile Iraq's warring factions. They have, they point out, held talks in Saudi Arabia with Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, whose militia is accused of killing Sunnis.
These officials say zakat donations are now channeled through supervised bank accounts. Cash donation boxes, once prevalent in supermarkets and shopping malls, have been eliminated.
Still, Iraq's foreign minister expressed concern about the influence of neighboring Sunni states at a recent Arab foreign ministers meeting in Cairo.
"We hope that Saudi Arabia will keep the same distance from each and all Iraqi parties," Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari later told the AP.
Last month, the New York Times reported that a classified U.S. government report said Iraq's Sunni Arab insurgency had become self-sufficient financially, raising millions from oil smuggling, kidnapping and Islamic charities. The report did not say whether any money came from Saudi Arabia.
Allegations the insurgents have purchased shoulder-fired Strela missiles raise concerns that they are obtaining increasingly sophisticated weapons.
On Nov. 27, a U.S. Air Force F-16 jet crashed while flying in support of American soldiers fighting Anbar province, a Sunni insurgent hotbed. The U.S. military said it had no information about the cause of the crash. Gen. William Caldwell, a U.S. military spokesman, said he would be surprised if the jet was shot down because F-16's have not encountered weapons capable of taking them down in Iraq.
But last week, a spokesman for Saddam's ousted Baath party claimed that fighters armed with a Strela missile had shot down the jet.
"We have stockpiles of Strelas and we are going to surprise them (the Americans)," Khudair al-Murshidi, the spokesman told the AP in Damascus,
Syria. He would not say how the Strelas were obtained.
Saddam's army had Strelas; it is not known how many survived the 2003 war. The Strela is a shoulder-fired, low-altitude system with a passive infrared guidance system.
The issue of Saudi funding for the insurgency could gain new prominence as the Bush administration reviews its Iraq policy, especially if it seeks to engage Iran and Syria in peace efforts.
Bush's national security adviser,
Stephen Hadley, wrote in a recent leaked memo that Washington should "step up efforts to get Saudi Arabia to take a leadership role in supporting Iraq, by using its influence to move Sunni populations out of violence into politics."
Last week, a Saudi who headed a security consulting group close to the Saudi government, Nawaf Obaid, wrote in the Washington Post that Saudi Arabia would use money, oil and support for Sunnis to thwart Iranian efforts to dominate Iraq if American troops pulled out. The Saudi government denied the report and fired Obaid.