Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: psy on October 28, 2006, 04:56:34 AM
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It's all fine and dandy to swat programs like flies but it seems as if they breed faster than they die. I would think that in order to stop them from popping back up, enforced regulation (or abolition) of the industry would have to instituted.
I realize, in order to do this, legislation must be passed. The problem with that, as I see it, is that there is little motive for politicians to do so. I do not think making them (directly) aware of the situation would be productive in most cases. In order for politicians to care about an issue, it must be one that is important enough to the voters so that it could be spun into an issue of use to them(this is, of course, assuming lobbyists don't enter the situation).
Do programs as an issue hold this potential? I think they do, if the truth is exposed to enough people. Even if it did not affect legislature, it would hold the potential of creating a wider public awareness of the realities of program life.
There is a problem here. Programs have a lot bigger of a megaphone. In terms of the lobbyists they could churn out of K street, the lawyers they could hire, the press contacts they could arrainge, the talk show hosts they could buy, and the sheer amount of resources at their disposal, it would seem they have the upper hand by a large margin.
One would have to have some sort of means of publicity to match or beat whatever programs could throw out as damage control. Since most of the media seems to parrot press releases rather than actually do research they cannot be relied upon to do their jobs and investigate program claims on their own. Somebody would have to help them out.
The question is, and i'm suggesting we brainstorm here: how is it possable to create a loud enough noise to drown out the programs? I have some ideas, but i'd like to hear what other people have to say.
It has to be possable, because otherwise, i don't see a way (legal or illegal) the grim program situation is ever going to change.
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Create outrage and direct it into something political and/or a media frenzy.
Its really the only way to do a GOD DAMNED THING these days.
So, get teen help to pick on 'ethnic kids' or whatever, and there ya go.
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How 'bout getting a hundred people to send a copy of Help at Any Cost to Larry King? (or some such person) Also of corse their own reps in DC. If Larry King ( or any media person) got even ten copies in one week, don't you think he'd feel maybe he should read it? And if he read it, don't you think he might realize what a story this is?
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Send them to Michael Moore. I'm sure he would love to do a film that allows him to address a real social wrong and at the same time take a swipe at the Republicans who support the sadistic hell camps.
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It would be a film that is in essence a sequel to Bowling for Columbine. These programs thrive on the Columbine fallout and parents' fear of their child being a shooter, and the damage it would do to their standing in the community.
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Find out all the publications that advertise these programs. Sunset magazine for years has always had several pages devoted to advertisements from CEDU etc. Send them info about programs, especially the ones that advertise in their magazine pointing out the many lawsuits that have and are being pursued. Ask them to descontinue Find the law firms that are pursuing the suits and let them know what publications the programs advertise in because when they throw out that big net they should not leave anyone out, especially those publications that aid and abet by allowing the advertising.
To every school district psychologist, child psychiatrist and other professional who may be tempted to recommend a program, send them regulary info about the lawsuits, deaths etc at these programs.
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I'm jazzed about Michael Moore getting into this. I've got a child in a program now (I'm a regular - incognito for reasons I can't divulge, but it's a good thing) and the idea of MM showing up at the hell-hole asking program staff questions they know they can't answer and trying furiously to spin from the hip would be a treat. Maia Szalavitz is good on camera, Alexia Parks I've never seen. The Scheff vs. Bock debacle is an example of a program Goliath running roughshod over a hurricane-displaced single mom. Whitmore, HLA, the whole lot of shitholes currently under fire would be a field day for Moore. I can give him access to a facility virtually unknown but brutal as hell and take him to the front door.
Here's Michael Moore's e-mail address from his website at www.michaelmoore.com (http://www.michaelmoore.com): mmflint@aol.com
Let's start sending him our stories and see if we can get any interest.
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Just ask very nicley will you all close down.
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Here's a technique I've used in groups of activists before... Guerilla Media.
Write two articles/press releases.
One is positive and appreciates the target for taking measures to remedy x,y,z complaints.
The second is negative-outlines the complaints and the target's refusal to respond to reasonable demands.
Send both to said target and ask which article/pr they'd like to see in a full-page ad in whatever newspaper/publication.
Give them a deadline to respond.
Media adv't costs money, but well placed, it can significantly cripple a business. If they're terribly resistent, you may have to publish the piece until drops in profit compell them to comply.
If you want to build a strong Guerilla Media group you must function with integrity. Cite your complaints and be prepared with ample documentation to support them, if the negative article is published.
It's been useful in many situations and I think it could be in many scenerios with the industry.
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I was thinking of, among other things, a wiki (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki) (for registered users only). This would allow a large amount of information to be compiled in an organized fashion relatively quickly. It could provide an easily searchable library of information regarding all things having to do with programs.
Besides the obvious things, such as a list of known abusive programs, It could include possable techniques for action against programs from a variety of different angles (legal, media, etc.) A section of common program abuses could be coupled with suggested actions for each. For example, a program forcing children to wade through manure could be reported to the sanitation authorities.
Of course the wiki is likely to be vandalized by programs/ed-cons on a semi-regular baisis, however a wiki allow one to easily revert changes.
Functionally a wiki would provide a similar facility to Fornits, but would be organized in a different fashion. A discussion board is great for some things but i would think a wiki would allow information to be collected and organized more effeciently. This could allow easier research as well as a place to point people looking for information regarding programs.
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Let's phrase the question another way: "What *has* worked?"
Why is HLA eating it? What causes shutdowns? Why do authorities decide to raid at one time and not another?
The way to get the ball rolling is to let enough people, both in authority and not, know just what the hell goes on in these places and that it's up to them to stop it. Not much else will suffice. When enough people say "I'm not going to stand for this to exist", it won't anymore. It'll get closed the fuck down- not just one at a time but the whole mess. When enough outrage, fury, and political momentum gets directed at this crap, that's when the ass kicking starts.
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The way to get the ball rolling is to let enough people, both in authority and not, know just what the hell goes on in these places and that it's up to them to stop it.
I agree. I thought that was what i had originaly stated. If i wasn't clear enough that was my bad. My question revolves around: How do you get enough people to know about, and give a damn about programs? By what means is it possable?
I know what needs to be accomplished. I'm asking how. People need to be appalled. How do you do that on a large enough scale to affect change?
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If I knew the answer to that, Fornits would be a place to talk about the bad old days in which people did things like torture children for fun and profit.
Start appalling everyone you know and hopefully it'll spread. There's no limit to the shocking shit, and it's even more effective if they're physically close. Just the words "Milk Gargling Death Penalty" might be enough for some people..
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If I knew the answer to that, Fornits would be a place to talk about the bad old days in which people did things like torture children for fun and profit.
Well i guess i'm trying to find the answer.
Start appalling everyone you know and hopefully it'll spread. There's no limit to the shocking shit, and it's even more effective if they're physically close. Just the words "Milk Gargling Death Penalty" might be enough for some people..
These are the days of goatse and rotten.com and ogrish. It's a lot harder to shock people than it used to be. Have you seen any record turn-outs for anti-war protests? They're actually bigger overseas. I live just outside DC and the last one was all of 200-300 people.
Sure people leave two shits in front of their TV or computer, but it does not make a damn bit of difference if action is not taken elsewhere. How many users are there on Fornits? If those "resources" were diverted into a project with the purpose of influencing the public, i believe it would be possable to have enough of a voice to compete with the programs.
Perhaps some sort of collaborative project could be possable to create videos, panphlets, fliers, press releases, etc. Once the content is collectively aggreed upon (god help us all), it could be distrobuted via every media possable at once. A flood of information is more likely to get noticed than a steady trickle.
I'm asking the unreasonable yes, but I believe progress depends on those who do. There are a lot of smart people on Fornits, and I truly do not believe the programs stand a chance if we work together rather than against each other. It's just a matter of organization in my mind.
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I don't put much faith in Federal Regs, but support any effort that might bring improvement. State licensing is another matter.
Here's something you could do with a group of committed people. Power in numbers. Preferably this would be parents, participants, advocates. You might even name your group and pick a rep who interacts with the state on the group's behalf.
Target one state at a time. Pick one that has a large number of residential programs and or a high number of deaths in programs.
Lists of deaths can be found at FICA and CAICA:
http://kathymoya.com/FICA/deaths.htm (http://kathymoya.com/FICA/deaths.htm)
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Li ... mitted.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20List%20of%20Names%20-names%20omitted.htm)
Lists of programs can be found at NATSAP and
at Bozak's site:
http://www.natsap.org/search.asp (http://www.natsap.org/search.asp)
http://www.school-placement.com/therapeuticlist.html (http://www.school-placement.com/therapeuticlist.html)
Research licensing in that state. This link is primarily for Daycare Licensing in all states, but when you click on a state you should be able to link to Licensing for Residential/Outdoor programs from there.
http://nrc.uchsc.edu/STATES/states.htm (http://nrc.uchsc.edu/STATES/states.htm)
Does that state have regs for RTCs/ TBSs/ Wilderness? Are the regulations adequate? Most have not kept up with the Industry. For instance, Ga has regs for RTCs, but they're lame in comparison to Utah's regs for TBSs. Utah's regs for Wilderness are also superior to Ga's. You can read more about that in the HLA forum:
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=19064 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=19064)
We found that Ga had no idea so many programs were operating in their state. Don't assume they know.
Check to see if all the programs in that state are properly licensed. If not, demand that they become licensed. If previously 'exempted', why? Claim to be a 'boarding school'? Provide proof they aren't.
Licensing may drag their feet. If so, go up the chain of command until you get someone's attention.
Chain of command: Licensing -> Dept of Human Resources -> Governor
Resort to Guerilla Media if necessary.
There are many other agencies you can file complaints with.
Check the credentials of 'professional' staff. Do they possess the degrees and licenses they claim? If not, report them to the Board of Examiners.
Is the program refering to babysitters as "counselors" and having them lead group therapy? Report it.
Known and documented abuses and negligence? Involve CPS.
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Many advocates have given up on state licensing for good reason. The regs are useless if not enforced, but there are numerous other reasons it's important for programs to be licensed, given that they aren't going to go away.
*They are requried to report incidences of assault, rape, injury, death. And the info becomes public. We need this data if we ever hope to show ineffectiveness.
*Until a program is licensed, it is difficult for Licensing or CPS to gain access to investigate abuse/neglect because they are a private corporation with all the rights that entails. It's a huge rigamaroll.
*Once licensed, all complaints lodged against the program can be requested by potential parents.
*All violations of regs then become public as well.
Licensing is not insurance that kids will be treated with respect and dignity, or that they'll be much safer, but they are important for the reasons stated.
And, if licensing isn't your bag, start a campaign in your state advocating for a Wraparound program similar to Milwaukee's-
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=19038 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=19038)
While this program appears to target low-income families, it would be easy to include all families and those with the ability to pay would do so.
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I suppose after watching, year after year, the same programs grow bigger and more profitable than ever before, and I tend to be pessimistic on the subject. WWASPS has received an unrecendented amount of negative media attention the past few years. We couldn't buy that amount of press coverage if we were multi millionaires. Magazines, prime-time news magazine shows, Montel, etc. I also notice that you don't see any daytime talk shows where the entire point is to send teens to boot camp, I am sure people remember sally jesse raphael, and the like when this tv show format was possible. Yet, even with an increase in negative attention, and positve attention in the sense that they don't advertise boot camps for teens on talk shows as much anymore, they still grow.
I think this all goes way beyond simple parental ignorance. As well, I don't believe that parents are going to vote for people who want to restrict their parental rights even more. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, and he told me he brings up the subject of abusive programs to influential people he comes into contact with in his job, and about half will start a tirade about how wrong he is to criticize programs and how they save lives. College professors, lawyers, doctors, politicians (especially), cops, social workers, etc. We are in the minoriy. We are considered 'broken souls', the poor schmucks who the program didn't fix, and because of that we are bitter. That is what they believe. They do not believe we were normal people who didn't deserve to be locked up in the first place and be abused. Look at people's faces when you say something like that, then watch the wheels turn as they construct in their mind why you are exaggerating or lying. Afterall, we live in america, the greatest country on earth, this couldn't happen here, if it did it would be shut down already. People live in the naivety of tv land where problems are addressed and solved, everything is black and white and all is well in the world of middle and upper class white america. It's hard to convince people of truth when they don't want to believe it.
Now, to parents. How many families have two working parents? How many families don't live near their family, or don't get along with them so they are totally on their own? A lot. So when there kid starts acting like a teenager or does something noticeable enough for their parent to finally take notice, they don't know where to go for help. Parents absolutely love the idea of programs. They have a romanticized sense of 'getting away' and improving their kid, from an adult perspective it does sound great. Hell, give me a year vacation in the mountains and I'll take it. But they don't get it, that they are signing over their kid to people who don't give a crap about them. The kid already has problems and the parent obviously doesn't have the time to address them, but why do they think that a 1/20 staff to kid ratio is going to somehow give them what they need. Parents want to believe kids are getting therapy, riding horses, playing guitar and singing kumbaya while in fact we are treated like cattle, wharehoused and kept in secret, forced through physical and emotional manipulation to do one thing -- keep our parents on the hook.That's all we were, a comoddity. You cannot pay a stranger to love a kid, you cannot pay a stranger to get to know 100 kids and help them through issues which they are dependent on the kid to tell them about. But they don't even believe the kid, so the parents diagnose the kid at entry and the staff assume everything the parent says is true. Accoding to my parent I was a fucked up dude, but that just wasn't true. But if the kid says anything they are not given the benefit of the doubt from parent or staff, they are automatically assumed to be lying. What does that teach a kid?
I've said it before, if I had no moral standards, or my own bad experience, I would start a program or referal business this minute. Why? Beccause it is such an easy sell to today's urban middle/upper class parents. It's too easy, it's such a good scam, one corporation alone is pulling in over a hundred million dollars a year.
People create problems in their life and others, and then look elsewhere for someone else to solve it. This is the behavior of children. But that's what the US is becoming, a country of children who look to big brother for help with every issue they perceive wrong in their life. It's ironic to look to help to a govt. which enabled socialists policies (drug war, high taxes, public school) to solve the negative symptoms of said policies. Families, individuals and communities need to look to themselves to solve their problems, not a huge beuaracratic entity that has done so much damage already, and is partly responsible for the situation today regarding teen programs.
Things I would like to see in this industry:
1. Active criminal prosecution of child abusers (randall hilton for example) . I don't know why parents are suing WWASPS for money, who wants their blood money? They deserve to be in jail, they commit fraud (all the people selling and refering the program including parents) that ultimately ends in physical and emotional abuse. If I get a ticket and harrassed for cops for crossing the street not in a crosswalk, certainly these people deserve a trip to the criminal justice system.
2. I would love to see kids who were abused start to sue their parents. I was tempted to do this myself. I am not talkin gabout parents who were genuinely duped, but with a program like WWASPS if you kept your kid in past discovery seminar then the parent should be sued for wrongful imprisonment, and infringing upon the rights of their child, especially if they hired kidnappers.
It's time to stop being politically correct and beating around the bush -- this is a parent driven industry. I know it's more comfortable to blame the evil corporations run by the 'evil elite' program owners but they are not the problem. There will always be snake oil salesmen, ready to sell their soul for a quick buck, they should be expected. These parents have money, they are not retarded, yes some are duped but most are not. The teen help industry is a sick sick world of people with one thing in common, the are all the most self righteous people you will ever meet. You cannot debate with these kind of people, they think they are saving the world. Fanatics are good at recruiting new members, and convincing everyone that their ditractors are crazy and stupid.
If you are serious about wanting to shut down programs, I would ask yourself these questions. Why hasn't scientology been shut down? Why haven't cults that have sex with children ben shut down? Why can parents let their kids die because of their religious beliefs, even if they need a simple medication? Why does CPS love to take people's kids away, but won't set foot in programs? This isn't a black and white situation at all, it involves shitloads of money, politics, and power -- if you want to take down powerful wealthy people who are deriving that power and money from what you are trying to dissolve, good luck. It's kind of like asking, how can you dismantle the military industrial complex. Even the people involved in the defense industry think its out of control, yet it still grows. Sometimes things get to a point where they take on a life of their own, and become an integrated part of society in which thousands of people derive their livelihoods from it. So the discussion of whether it is moral or not takes a back seat to economics, politics and money.
I finally came to the concluion that looking at the industry as a goliath that needs to be slain by the anti-program david is naive at this point. There are too many forces working against us, including 'our own'. So I choose to tell my story to everyone who wants to know, and try to save kids from a tormented program experience one at a time, through advice to their parents. This worked for a couple cousins of mine already. Not sure what else to do at this point. :-?
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It's times like this that I'm glad I'm a total outsider. The people I know outside of Fornits are sickened by the existence of any of this. The people I know don't have any people they know who are involved in this or who would ever consider sending their kid to one of these hellholes. It's just not done, just as putting your kid's hand on a stove to teach him it's hot isn't done. The people that know the people I know don't have anyone THEY know who does this shit... etc, etc, probably for quite a number of degrees of separation before you find someone crazy enough to send a kid to Mormons in Utah.
If people really approved of this, these places would never get shut down- and yet they are. Straight and The Seed are long gone. CEDU is toast. Multiple hardcore government-raid shutdowns have been performed against WWASPS in other countries. HLA is getting fried as we speak. It's just not happening fast enough; after enough repeated shutdowns, I assure you, they'll stay down- simply because they won't be able to get back up. There are some states in which none of this can exist because they figured out what it really was. The goal is simply to raise the number of states to 50.
TSW: Quit being a goddamn pussy. The legislation you came up with wasn't going to accomplish shit. Isn't that what I told you at the beginning of this? Try something with teeth next time. Of course the government can shut it down- the government can do damn near anything they want, that's why they call it government. It's just about making organized child torture politically untenable.
Jesus I can't believe I had to type that. Make organized child abuse politically untenable? You mean it's not already?
And there's only two "professional advocates" I can think of who are in it for profit: Sue and Izzy, and they aren't advocates, just dressed-up programmies.
OHE: Where the fuck do you live? No, seriously. Cops and judges and politicians are in favor of incarcerating kids without trial?
I'm so sick of the defeatist bullshit that comes up every time someone makes a thread like this. People, if there isn't any hope then I'm leaving and pretending none of this ever existed, because for me, it doesn't, just as the rampant slaughters and genocides in Africa don't exist for me.
Scientology has been almost completely destroyed from the inside out- they can't even afford to go after their detractors anymore like they used to. They've become a subject of mockery rather than a serious threat. One hellhole- I forget the name- in North Carolina was completely shut down after CPS got wind of what really went on there. How many times does this happen? How many places have been shut down by now? HLA is being boiled to death because of Fornits. There's one big WWASPS lawsuit that got started here. A lot of the things that get started here, we can't talk about for legal reasons (*waves to ZA*).
It works when people get serious about kicking ass. Pretend you're a program owner. What's the worst thing that can happen to you? What's the most horrible thing that someone can legally do to you? But since you're a Fornits member, it's up to you to make that happen.
You heard me. It's up to the members on this board. Who else is going to start the ass kicking? If you know people who are sickened by this shit, then get them to start expressing that to politicians and friends. If you don't, well then, it's just going to have to be YOU, isn't it?
It doesn't work? People aren't listening? Turn up the heat. Throw more evidence out there. The method of distribution isn't really important. There's no limit to the possibilities, seriously. Remember, these people kill kids for gargling milk- there's nothing you can conceivably do to them that's worse than that. If what you're trying to destroy isn't destroyed, then by definition, you haven't kicked enough ass. Still not gone? Turn up the heat, kick more ass. Get the youngest, most innocent-looking kid on TV to tell, in detail, just what was done to him, and be sure he names the facility and every one of the 'counselors' who abused him. That politician in your way? Wow, I bet everyone in HIS district doesn't know he supports child abuse. Hey, guess who just posted a massive billboard detailing the abuses of the programs that he supports (and make sure to quote him on that!). Lon Woodbury still in that building in Georgia? Hey, I wonder what would happen if EVERYONE IN HIS BUILDING knew what he does for a living? Sending kids to be beaten up by their peers at the command of "counselors"? Wow, really? I bet they didn't know that. Until someone stuck little fliers under each and every one of their doors. (Anyone in Georgia willing to pull this one off? Be sure to be detailed with your evidence.)
The choice is simple, folks: Either we say "That's it. I'm going to put an end to this shit." or we say "There's too many of them and they have too much support." I don't give a good healthy damn if there are too many of them and they do have too much support. I say we kick their asses anyway.
Have we all forgotten what the stakes are? Every time a parent shows up here and gets talked out of sending her kid to some shitpit, that's months, years of that kid's life that he's hanging out with his friends and enjoying his youth, instead of being subject to LGATs and forced into a mind-destroying regimented life.
Every time a hellhole gets shut down, that's another hundred kids being able to go skateboarding and drive around, instead of being in some warped 'level system' where they have to 'earn privileges' just to be able to talk to anyone.
And once this whole thing goes crashing to the ground, that's several thousand kids being with their friends and families and not subject to the whims of sadists.
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OHE: Where the fuck do you live? No, seriously. Cops and judges and politicians are in favor of incarcerating kids without trial?
Southern California. The judges and politicians send their kids to programs, along with the DA and all their lawyer buddies, they love programs. The cops don't make enough to even know about programs other than juve, besides, they just beat their kids.
The choice is simple, folks: Either we say "That's it. I'm going to put an end to this shit." or we say "There's too many of them and they have too much support." I don't give a good healthy damn if there are too many of them and they do have too much support. I say we kick their asses anyway.
I don't see anybody saying that. What I am saying is I focus on attainable goals rather than thinking that I am going to defeat an entire industry in one whole swoop. I don't throw up my hands, even with my opinions, through talking to family, posting on various blogs, making a website and talking to people I know I've influenced at least a dozen families from placing their kids. If every former program kid did this it would be an effective grass roots effort. We are the generation of parents now, tell your friends, and tell them to tell their friends. It's not as sexy as 'kicking their ass', but it's the most effective tool I've found.
Pretend you're a program owner. What's the worst thing that can happen to you?
Parents stop calling me.
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I think this all goes way beyond simple parental ignorance. As well, I don't believe that parents are going to vote for people who want to restrict their parental rights even more.
Very true. People have already lost enough of their liberties to Big Government. They won't vote to have any more of their rights -- especially their parental rights -- further restricted. They will want to retain their right to raise their child as they see fit. Sadly, that includes the right to ship the kid off to let someone else raise him for awhile.
People know how bad the places can be, there is no question in my mind about that. I have met to many parents who have asked me questions about things like restraints and other abusive practices. They do their research. They just don't see what we tend to see that tough love is a poison to the soul of a child. Not to mention a killer of well over a hundred children in the USA alone.
I think there are two basic categories of program parents: the first is those who genuinely don't know the truth, who think the program really is going to offer their kid therapy, education & life skills that for whatever reasons, the parents believe they cannot provide at home. The second category is the 'tough love' crowd who have a pretty good idea of what these programs are about, and who feel that what their kid needs is punishment for real or imagined wrongdoings.
I don't know how one goes about trying to stop abusive parents from hiring a third party to commit abuse. Many of the worst atrocities committed by some programs are already illegal, but enforcement is sorely lacking, as is hard evidence in most cases.
I suspect that the negative publicity about WWASPS has not hurt business at all when it comes to the 'tough love' group of parents. Publicity is publicity, and there are parents who will hear the negative stuff about WWASPS and think, "hey, here's an outfit that might knock some sense into that unruly little beast of a teenager that I can't stand to have around anymore."
I finally came to the concluion that looking at the industry as a goliath that needs to be slain by the anti-program david is naive at this point. There are too many forces working against us, including 'our own'. So I choose to tell my story to everyone who wants to know, and try to save kids from a tormented program experience one at a time, through advice to their parents. This worked for a couple cousins of mine already. Not sure what else to do at this point.
Small though it may seem, there is a lot to be said for large numbers of people each doing what they can to save one life at a time. It's not a real solution, but it sure makes a difference to those kids whose parents were educated about this industry and chose a different course before they made a terrible life-altering mistake.
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I've been here a long time. When I first started posting five years ago there wasn't near as much activity as there is today. There weren't many blogs and forums on the internet. Many that I participated on folded under the threat of slap suits. Fornits perservered. Participation seemed to explode a couple of years ago.
This is a huge social issue to tackle. Enthusiasm/Hopelessness ebbs and flows. If you reach the pit of hopelessness, take a break and come back refreshed. For me, I'm useless when hopelessness.
People work in the area of activism that most appeals to them, whether that be legislation or simply disseminating information. It's all good.
But, when the day is done it may prove that Fornits, and sites like it are the most effective, because this is a parent-driven industry, and discerning parents will do due diligence before placing their child.
You may not have a view of the bigger picture, but Fornits and other sites are getting notice.
Witness all the
*Advocate Sites, Blogs, Forums, and other Initiatives
*Recent presentation to APA by Pinto etal
*Lawsuits- which may not have happened had people not connected here and elsewhere.
*White papers (read Whitewash) being issued by the industry
*Or putting out "studies" tauting the safeness in Wilderness to efficacy of Residential programs
The Industry is in Defense Mode, which is new and exciting!
Do you think they'd go to all this effort if critics weren't affecting their bottomline? I think not, given they did nothing to defend themselves for a couple of decades.
Programs read forums and blogs and respond to their critics. I've seen this happen more the last couple of years than ever before. If a particular term is criticised, then they change it. Most recently an HLA supporter posting asked if we expected a 'school' to exist without any behavior "altercations". Clearly, he meant alterations. So, might this be a new term well hear in the future, since BM is getting such a bad rap?
You have to know your enemy. That requires research. Who's who, and what they're doing. Be prepared to respond to their latest effort/scam to ease public concerns.
NATSAPs President is fast peddling to put a new face of professionalism on the industry.... boy does he have his work cut out for him. He's prodding programs to move away from the 'experiemental, new agey, woo-woo' methods (or appear to anyway) that all programs use which goes back to CEDU/Synanon; and move to Evidence Based methods.
But, even if they totally restructured their programs, there aren't any EB models, save the pathetic "study" put out by Canyon Research (Ex Aspen employee and funded by NATSAP). Everywhere you see this study cited, the direct connection between Behrens and Aspen, and the research methods needs to be exposed.
Ex:http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=49908
We need MH professionals who can critque the 'study' in a professional manner and connect the dots between the players, showing it wasn't Independent. Ten of CRCs 14 clients are Aspen.
Evidence Based practice supports family involvement. Here's how one of CRCs clients who claims to be EB, is spinning that-
Q. How can I do family therapy if my family does not live in Utah?
A. We recognize the importance of family therapy and will make every effort to work with family and individual?s schedules. We will offer your family web cam, telephone conferencing, or intensives for family therapy. The web cam will be via secured, encrypted service to ensure confidentiality.
http://www.newlifecenters.org/faq.html (http://www.newlifecenters.org/faq.html)
They just won't be able to get around the fact that "treatment in isolation" doesn't work. So.... send your kid to us for a year or two, then get the community services you need when the kid comes home.
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Evidence Based practice supports family involvement. Here's how one of CRCs clients who claims to be EB, is spinning that-
Q. How can I do family therapy if my family does not live in Utah?
A. We recognize the importance of family therapy and will make every effort to work with family and individual?s schedules. We will offer your family web cam, telephone conferencing, or intensives for family therapy. The web cam will be via secured, encrypted service to ensure confidentiality.
http://www.newlifecenters.org/faq.html (http://www.newlifecenters.org/faq.html)
That would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. Teen problems almost always involve family dysfunction, but rather than treat the whole family together, the new program philosophy is "we still want you to give us your child and all your money, but we'll sort of virtually keep the family together with webcams and conference calls." Too bad physical touch -- hugs & kisses -- can't be virtualized over the internet or the telephone.
They just won't be able to get around the fact that "treatment in isolation" doesn't work. So.... send your kid to us for a year or two, then get the community services you need when the kid comes home.
Sadly, I think one of the biggest factors that keeps this parent-driven industry going is the lack of appropriate community services in many cities. Programs are responding to an unmet demand by parent-consumers. Nevermind that the "services" provided by the programs don't really do what they claim. Just the fact that they claim to offer solutions seems, to many parents, better than any local alternatives -- simply because local alternatives are sometimes non-existent.
You wanna kill the programs? Then let's work on beefing up those community-based options that advocates always talk about.
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http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=19038 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=19038)
Yes, when you're not putting out fires on Fornits, pitch WrapAround services to any and all agencies in your state. Identify the Human Rights orgs who might pitch it to the state and legislature. Get the public discussion going. Get it to the media. Challenge the state to act in kids best interest. The creation of WrapAround could kill multiple birds with one stone- RTCs, CPS, Foster, etc. There's ample evidence of efficacy. I despise PharmCo and the drugging of kids, but I'd risk it (because that can be addressed as a separate issue), if it keeps kids out of warehouses.
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I tend to aggree more with everybody but OHE. Although small scale dissemination of information is good, I think it would be better to attempt to make a loud a noise as possable. If you don't believe this is possable than like MGDP said, you should just give up. Yes the problem seems impossable to fix, but programs have been falling apart as of recently, mainly as a result of places like Fornits, and the people who post here.
Parents will always say, "My program for my kid isn't like WWASP, therefore its a good program."
This is why I would almost argue it would be more productive to go after the lesser programs first, in order to set the bar for what is considered "abuse" lower. CEDU would have been better to take out first IMO.
In any case, making parents see the truth of what really goes on in the "best of programs" would probably shock them. I would like to think most parents are in denial. Until you put the putrid truth right under their noses, it's unlikely they will wake up.
It doesn't work? People aren't listening? Turn up the heat. Throw more evidence out there. The method of distribution isn't really important. There's no limit to the possibilities, seriously.
This is more of what i was looking for when i started this thread. Means of collecting and disseminating information on a mass scale. There are, as MGDP suggests, limitless possabilities for doing this. I just think it would be useful to start listing them in one useful place.
Deborah has also given some useful suggestions, of the type i would think would be very useful it they were elaborated on and collaboratively added to. This is the type of thing i would think a Wiki could be of aid to.
Regarding WrapAround, i am not so sure how good an idea it is to possably create another monster. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Although WrapAround seems by far a better alternative than programs, especially at the moment, i'm a bit cynical regarding where things could possably head in the future. Organizations are not incorruptable. That being said, it is a better alternative to programs at the moment so it's probably a good idea to do what Deborah mentions.
It works when people get serious about kicking ass. Pretend you're a program owner. What's the worst thing that can happen to you? What's the most horrible thing that someone can legally do to you?
This is where i optimally see the discussion heading.
Although it would be nice to figure out a way to take out more than just one program at a time The Michael Moore idea was a good step in this direction i think although i'm not sure he would be such a good choice given his political leanings and the tendency of the right to completely ignore anything he has to say (whether it has merit or not).
So here is one of the ideas i was thinking of:
flier / handout / dvd campaign
Compile information about programs and distrobute them via a website. People could hand out the information locally on a given day, across the country (for maximum effect). Hand them out in shopping malls, in front of movie theatres, churches (yes the "think about the children" crowd can help as well), anywhere where there is enough human traffic. If a documentary was produced a leaflet campaign could turn into a DVD campaign. Blank dvd media is cheap. If the media got wind of what was happening it could open up even more possabilities.
Any more?
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If you don't believe this is possable than like MGDP said, you should just give up.
:roll:
but programs have been falling apart as of recently
There are more programs than ever, they are expanding.
I would like to think most parents are in denial.
That's why you'll be another in a long line of ineffective activists, and ultimately disallusioned when you find out the truth.
flier / handout / dvd campaign
Compile information about programs and distrobute them via a website. People could hand out the information locally on a given day, across the country (for maximum effect). Hand them out in shopping malls, in front of movie theatres, churches (yes the "think about the children" crowd can help as well), anywhere where there is enough human traffic. If a documentary was produced a leaflet campaign could turn into a DVD campaign. Blank dvd media is cheap. If the media got wind of what was happening it could open up even more possabilities.
Not sure whether to laugh or cry.
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Parents will always say, "My program for my kid isn't like WWASP, therefore its a good program."
And the parents with kids in WWASP give the old addage... "better my kid is in WWASP'S care than on the street, dead or in jail". It's an effectiv thought-terminating cliche taught to programmies.
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:idea: What about a substantial donation to a credible advocating reporting entity for the purpose of developing TV commercials? If Millions of Americans saw TV ads about the harmful effects of treatment abuse, maybe the customer bases of all of these programs would dwindle away... TV Commercials are very expensive, but, you get what you pay for, right? The abusive programs have $$$$$$$$ overflowing their toilets without advertising on TV. A countering website here and there doesn't do the trick like what is really needed. Furthermore,the mainstream media usually only covers deaths and major events, not the everyday hell that kids go through in programs. If, during every primetime, people saw a commercial about harmful treatment programs, maybe people would start to wake up, make more donations and get some $$$$ going the opposite direction. Without substantial $$$$ resources, efforts to abdicate abusive treatment programs may ultimately and/or continuously fall short. :idea:
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who are these mysterious millionaires that will finanace all these projects everyone is coming up with??
have you all not heard of google video?
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you are all fools. look at you -- keyboard jockies who talk big with no follow through -- get over yourselves. go pick up a book and read the example of great men like ghandi, jesus and MLK jr. -- these are the real leaders of our time and they weren't hiding in momma's basement talking big under a fake name in cyberspace. unless you are willing to go hunger strike in front of programs full time then shut up. unless you are willing to cause civil disobedience and go to jail then shut up. if you are willing to follow the example of so many martyrs of our time i would respect you -- until then you are all just talk. you fools don't even know what committment is look at these people willing to give their live for their cause.
(http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/280000/images/_281195_300_athens.jpg)
A Kurdish protester sets fire to himself outside the Greek Parliament in Athens
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http://list.of.millionaires.businesscle ... llionaires (http://list.of.millionaires.businessclerical.com/sh.cfm?sq=List%20Of%20Millionaires) 8)
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I was wondering when the trolls would show up.
Hi, trolls! :wave: Ready to get owned? Welcome to the rest of the world, assholes- your particular blend of mindless bullshit and emotional jerking just doesn't work here.
Nobody here is going to set himself on fire.
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Ready to get owned?
:x :rofl: :roll: :wave:
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If you don't believe this is possable than like MGDP said, you should just give up.
:roll:
but programs have been falling apart as of recently
There are more programs than ever, they are expanding.
I would like to think most parents are in denial.
That's why you'll be another in a long line of ineffective activists, and ultimately disallusioned when you find out the truth.
flier / handout / dvd campaign
Compile information about programs and distrobute them via a website. People could hand out the information locally on a given day, across the country (for maximum effect). Hand them out in shopping malls, in front of movie theatres, churches (yes the "think about the children" crowd can help as well), anywhere where there is enough human traffic. If a documentary was produced a leaflet campaign could turn into a DVD campaign. Blank dvd media is cheap. If the media got wind of what was happening it could open up even more possabilities.
Not sure whether to laugh or cry.
Ok. That was not nice, or productive. So. Unless you have something to add, or suggest, why are you posting? I don't expect or really want an answer from you. Just move along back to the dim world of pessimism and leave us alone.
What "truth"? I know how bad it is. I know full well how much of a nearly impossable task abolishing programs would be (and as TSW suggests, I believe that would probably be the most effective course of action). However, i am not as easily disallusioned as you seem to be. Yes I get depressed at times, especially when things don't turn out so well, but after a while I pick myself up, consider what is at stake, analyze what failed, and try again.
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you are all fools. look at you -- keyboard jockies who talk big with no follow through -- get over yourselves. go pick up a book and read the example of great men like ghandi, jesus and MLK jr. -- these are the real leaders of our time and they weren't hiding in momma's basement talking big under a fake name in cyberspace. unless you are willing to go hunger strike in front of programs full time then shut up. unless you are willing to cause civil disobedience and go to jail then shut up. if you are willing to follow the example of so many martyrs of our time i would respect you -- until then you are all just talk. you fools don't even know what committment is look at these people willing to give their live for their cause.
(http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/280000/images/_281195_300_athens.jpg)
A Kurdish protester sets fire to himself outside the Greek Parliament in Athens
Well if you think setting yourself on fire would help the situation -- be my guest.
Be sure and send me a tape.
Besides, what do you know about what lengths I would go to if it would stop the suffering. I simply believe legal options should always come first.
Keep in mind also, that what i say online is my public persona, and may be a bit more "diplomatic" than if i were not on record.
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Funny..................I never, ever saw Ghandi, Jesus or MLK, Jr., set themselves on fire. Trying to create some macabre dramatic point???? If so, please explain. I'm lost. Call me stupid, ignorant (which is entirely possible) or closed-minded........but PLEASE explain that correlation.
you are all fools. look at you -- keyboard jockies who talk big with no follow through -- get over yourselves. go pick up a book and read the example of great men like ghandi, jesus and MLK jr. --
(http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/280000/images/_281195_300_athens.jpg)
A Kurdish protester sets fire to himself outside the Greek Parliament in Athens
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So is that a Kurd Kebab or a Fried Kurd with curried rice?
::bwahaha2::
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I remember the Buddhist monks self-immolating in Vietnam...as I recall, they sat peacefully as they burned. These Kurds are hopping about like headless chickens. No dignity. No diggity.
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Straight and The Seed are long gone.
Only in name. Pathway in Detroit, SAFE in Orlando and Growing Together in Lake Worth are all former Straights. They just changed the name.
Every time a hellhole gets shut down, that's another hundred kids being able to go skateboarding and drive around, instead of being in some warped 'level system' where they have to 'earn privileges' just to be able to talk to anyone.
The entire industry is based on pretty much the exact same philosophy and that was created by a certifiable lunatic and attempted murderer. Read up on Synanon's history. That and AA is where this whole 'therapeutic community' approach began.
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Read up on Synanon's history. That and AA is where this whole 'therapeutic community' approach began.
Whats with all the anti AA bs on this forum? Did you go to a 'therapeutic community' run by AA? I don't think so cause they dont exist.
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The only thing that will fix this is children's rights, enforceable separately from their parents' wishes.
Family court judges, in custody cases, have set all kinds of precedent for the kind of input kids are competent to make as to their own best interests, at various ages. That needs to be extended to making it a custody issue for family court whenever parents try to transfer care of their child to a facility for more than three weeks.
When parents transfer their child to a facility, they're admitting they cannot, at that time, care for that child--unless the facility is a strictly academic one.
This admission of inability should automatically trigger close scrutiny by social services and family courts.
Methinks the kinds of parents that send their kids to Programs frequently have parenting practices that would not stand up well to such scrutiny.
An example would be Joan Crawford sending Christina and her brother to ultra-strict "boarding school" in the middle of nowhere--basically a program---because Mommie Dearest had Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I strongly suspect that a lot of these Program Parents are narcissists, or share many traits with narcissists.
It's glaring in the online "parent support" forums--it really is all about them.
Control freaks are, apparently, usually highly narcissistic.
Julie
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Did you go to a 'therapeutic community' run by AA?
Programs, from psychiatric hospitals to wilderness programs, use the AA model as part of their program to address the kids alleged drug issues. AA is not a hierarchial organization, it's an ideology that can be adapted to fit many different people's agenda.
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Whats with all the anti AA bs on this forum? Did you go to a 'therapeutic community' run by AA? I don't think so cause they dont exist.
AA is a sham and a religion. AA may not actually run a therapeutic community in the sense that we're speaking of here but it works on the same premise. It uses forced confessions, teaches the powerless crap and in general has unqualified people trying to diagnose and treat everyone the same way. It's really not that different from programs.
The "success" rate for AA is a whopping 5%. The rate for spontaneous remission (people just quitting on their own) is the same.
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bla bla bla. AA sucks.
Waaaah. how dare you. AA is great
no is isn't. it is the most suckiest
not is isn't it's the bestest.
is too
is not
is too...
Could you guys take it to the AA bashing / defending thread please. :roll:
Next time somebody brings up Synanon's history, please be sure to mention it had a break with AA so the twelve steppers (better than programmies though) don't freak out.
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i think that the only thing that will shut down programmes is cultural change.
If kids who go to programmes lived in countries where there is no such thing as a programme, they would possibly be labelled "quite a handful" or "a bit of a livewire" but the family would have more support from the wider community and would be forced to come up with other ways of dealing with the kid or would just ride out their kids difficult phase.
if kids did not have really excessivel strict drug laws to follow and things like youth cerfews, parents would possibly be less fearful that their kid would end up in jail for every act of adolescent stupidity.
I think it is easy to label every parent who sends their kid to one of these terrible places a selfish monster but I am not convinced that this is the case every time. Many are probably genuinely scared for their kids and easily manipulated at a time when they are feeling vulnerable. Sure there will always be mommie dearests, stepbitches and control freak dads, but it is as unfair to label all progamme parents this way as it is for programmes to call all the kids manipulators and liars.
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Above poster was me- there were login dramas oz girl
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You have to network. You need to get your stories told outside the reach of WWASP and Aspens lawyers.
That means Europe, where your parents would get no understanding about hireing someone to take you out of your bed in the middle of the night just because they fell like it.
As hard and tearful it is to remember you torment, it is important to get your story told.
We have done a lot in our country, but still we have people living that have gone through the same kind of torment and abuse some 40 years ago.
One of those groups are:
http://groups.msn.com/GODHAVN (http://groups.msn.com/GODHAVN)
I would personally also try to create websites on the Danish version of wikipedia, so the stories can be told. The public eye should be on what is going on in those institutions. Abuse is only possible when it is hidden.
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Many are probably genuinely scared for their kids and easily manipulated at a time when they are feeling vulnerable.
Bingo. Yet cultural change is a hard thing to do, especially when you live in a country where the solution to every problem seems to be "throw money at it".
Any suggestions as to how to go about doing that (changing public opinion)? I'm not saying it's not feasable, I just don't see a way how. That's why I started this thread.
I have my own personal monster which i plan to slay, but it would be nice to address the larger issue(s) here as well.
Personally, i believe it's just a matter of creating something that is powerful enough to move people, entertaining enough to catch people's attention, and supported well enough to not be ignored. Such things normally come around only once in a lifetime, yet i am convinced it is possable since it has been done.
We live in a culture of sound bites and 15 second news clips. It is possable to get the attention of the public masses, and keep it long enough to say what is necessary to influence them? I believe it is. How? Make it entertaining enough.
Let's try to think outside the box, consider what has not been done, consider the resources we have at our disposal, etc... If enough minds come together on this one we will be able to shove a stake through this entire industry eventually. I have no illusions that the first try will work, or that it will be easy, but i believe determination always pays off.
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I have seen that several mothers had written books about their mother / daughter relationship and how they saved their childs life by the so-called hard decision to send it away.
Suchs books is about polish their own halo.
But I have also seen books like 63days which is in progress. It is such personal stories about an unhuman system, we European people would like to read about.
If several survivors join together in a single book and it could be published, I would throw light on the abuse.
I know from this forum that all the programs try to avoid that you talk with each other after you have left the institution. Their goal is that you all just stand a single person claiming the abuse so that the general public can not see that there is a system of abuse going on there.
At first hand it seems that is far out that you need to turn some 6000 miles away to get help, but as you had written yourself:
Money rules!
And there is a hell of a lot of money in exploiting families in crisis.
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But I have also seen books like 63days which is in progress. It is such personal stories about an unhuman system, we European people would like to read about.
Great. I'm talking about making something for an audience with the education of the average 12 year old over there. I used to live in Europe, i know how it is. The educational system is not that great over here. In the end, it does not matter if Europeans read such books, what say do they have over here?
I know from this forum that all the programs try to avoid that you talk with each other after you have left the institution. Their goal is that you all just stand a single person claiming the abuse so that the general public can not see that there is a system of abuse going on there.
Well after five years of looking around i finally found enough of them to make a difference in my case. It's not easy, but for me, things are really starting to accelerate. I'm wondering, now, what will I do once the devil is dead (not literally).
I suspect, unfortunately, that someone will see a money-making opportunity, and resurrect the program under another name. I'm wondering what the particular wooden stake is for these programs so they don't come back to life. (yes it's halloween, so i get to use vampire analogies) This is why i started this thread. It's pointless to keep on killing zombies if they breed faster than you can shoot. (zombie analogies too)
At first hand it seems that is far out that I want you to turn some 6000 miles away to get help, but as you had written yourself:
Money rules!
And there is a hell of a lot of money in exploiting families in crisis.
Aha. Now it makes a little sense. But money is useless if one cannot figure out what to spend it on. On the other hand, if one can use money to buy an election via repetition of publicity, it is possable to ... aha. i see where you are going. Good suggestion. more please.
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Don't forget psy that 44 of the top 100 universities of the world are American Universities. Whilst we do have the average unmotivated dullards who drop out, or do the bare minimum to get by there are plenty of hard working kids who want to get educated. The American education system is superior in the sense that we don't train kids to regurgitate crap like a trained monkey. Go check out the so called Japanese system of education and along with the majority of the more developed Asian countries.
Europe has a swell education system, but given they haven't won a war yet that they haven't started I just don't hold my breathe that they will go the distance as time goes on. Europeans are lazier than Americans, they work less, and European women are still treated as inferior by products of the workplace.
Don't crap on America just because some bleeding hearts cried about some retarded football players in Cleveland not knowing what state they are in. Of course most footballers won't know what state they are in. They play football for a reason, they simply haven't the mental capacity to function well enough to understand complex things like the Alphabet.
Next a book released to the European audience isn't going to do much for the American TBS problem. Anyone who has any sense will know that their is this rather large ocean in between the two continents. Simple geography makes it difficult for Europeans to do much about the problem. Releasing books, movies, articles, and other multimedia materiels in the United States creates a wider body of literature to dispell the myths surrounding TBS programs. The more people here about "ongoing" abuses in programs the more relavent it is to them. Rather than regurgitating the same tired old lists to people who have had their senses numbed by looking at lists such as the Vietnam War Memorial, try to keep the events current and local if at all possible.
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Teen programs will stop the same day parents stop calling them. Spend a hundred million dollars (people in this thread sure talk like they have access to money) on TV ads and see how many parents that stops from calling.
Look how many parents you see on this board, and in other advocacy groups. Only a handful, why? Because most were not 'duped' they signed on willingly and still to this day the program worked out great. If, like people suggest, so many parents feel double-crossed, lied to and ripped off, where are they? They have the money, the bigger voices in media and professional arenas. There's some in court suing, I guess that's how they view vindication, with money, but it won't keep any new parents from signing up now will it.
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I think it is easy to label every parent who sends their kid to one of these terrible places a selfish monster but I am not convinced that this is the case every time. Many are probably genuinely scared for their kids and easily manipulated at a time when they are feeling vulnerable. Sure there will always be mommie dearests, stepbitches and control freak dads, but it is as unfair to label all progamme parents this way as it is for programmes to call all the kids manipulators and liars.
I don't think it's honest to limit the choice to monster/stepbitch or a poor ignorant, good hearted fool. Somewhere in the middle lies negligence and risk assumption on the part of the child.
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Go check out the so called Japanese system of education and along with the majority of the more developed Asian countries.
Europeans are lazier than Americans, they work less, and European women are still treated as inferior by products of the workplace.
Don't crap on America just because some bleeding hearts cried about some retarded football players in Cleveland not knowing what state they are in. Of course most footballers won't know what state they are in. They play football for a reason, they simply haven't the mental capacity to function well enough to understand complex things like the Alphabet.
.
Have you been to any of these countries? Met any Japanese kids? If you have you must realise that they have an outstanding public education system and that their kids are raised to strongly value learning.
And which countries in europe mistreat women in the work place. Sweden which has paid maternity and paternity pay for over a year after the kid is born?
How are europeans lazy? I assume you are referring to individual countries within Europe as opposed to considering it one big country. If you are referring to countries like Italy Spain or Greece which still observe a siesta but also have shops and restuarants open till late at night you may do well to remember that all of these nations place an emphasis on work life balance. People here work to live not the other way around. One countries idea of lazy is anothers balanced. Of course you might mean Germany which has a guaranteed 6 weeks annual leave for all full time workers. last time i went there i did not see anyone lazing around. Perhaps you just dont like the French. Afterall if the book is correct their women dont get fat! Nobody knows because you did not specify which countries were lazy!
I don't think anyone was dissing Americans but your comments have hardly made you look like one of its intellectual elite!
I do agree though that in addition to international exposure the focus needs to be within the US as it appears that the majority of the TBS industry kids are American.
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:roll:
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Don't forget psy that 44 of the top 100 universities of the world are American Universities. Whilst we do have the average unmotivated dullards who drop out, or do the bare minimum to get by there are plenty of hard working kids who want to get educated. The American education system is superior in the sense that we don't train kids to regurgitate crap like a trained monkey. Go check out the so called Japanese system of education and along with the majority of the more developed Asian countries.
Europe has a swell education system, but given they haven't won a war yet that they haven't started I just don't hold my breathe that they will go the distance as time goes on. Europeans are lazier than Americans, they work less, and European women are still treated as inferior by products of the workplace.
Don't crap on America just because some bleeding hearts cried about some retarded football players in Cleveland not knowing what state they are in. Of course most footballers won't know what state they are in. They play football for a reason, they simply haven't the mental capacity to function well enough to understand complex things like the Alphabet.
Next a book released to the European audience isn't going to do much for the American TBS problem. Anyone who has any sense will know that their is this rather large ocean in between the two continents. Simple geography makes it difficult for Europeans to do much about the problem. Releasing books, movies, articles, and other multimedia materiels in the United States creates a wider body of literature to dispell the myths surrounding TBS programs. The more people here about "ongoing" abuses in programs the more relavent it is to them. Rather than regurgitating the same tired old lists to people who have had their senses numbed by looking at lists such as the Vietnam War Memorial, try to keep the events current and local if at all possible.
Okey dokey. I was not crapping on America TSW. I assume that is you with the "bleeding hearts" expression. If you want you can blame the liberals (rightly) for the pathetic state of public school education. ("Oh we can't have them getting bad grades, it would hurt their feewings") Since when is critique, or pointing out that the emperor has no clothes on, taking a dump on America?
Also, the whole European winning war thing is kind of stupid. If the United States had not intervened in WWII, or WWI, a european country would have won the war. There are no winners in war. Sure we're the best in the world at blowing shit up but has it really done that much good? Has it really made us popular? Is that what you really want our country to be known for? It's war making capability?
Europeans are not lazier, they just have not let themselves become slaves to the wage yet. They know when to relax and take things easy. As far as the glass cieling goes, when was the last time you saw a female president elected? A female prime minister? Thought so.
I lived in europe for a good portion of my life and most of what Americans think about other countries is nationalist propoganda they have been spoonfed since a very early age. (Our country is the best in the world, and all other countries should be like us bla bla bla") It's an arrogant attitude which is disasterous when applied to foreign policy. For example see Iraq, or the nation building experiment before that, Cuba. Gee that one turned out swell. Read your history.
George Bush is an asshole, and an idiot, and Hillary is a machivellian bitch who i wouldn't trust to walk my dog. Please cut the partisan crap out on both sides of this. Can we just put aside our petty political bitching for just a few moments and actually productively explore some options about what is really important here: trying to stop institutionalized abuse by creating a loud enough noise.
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Go check out the so called Japanese system of education and along with the majority of the more developed Asian countries.
Europeans are lazier than Americans, they work less, and European women are still treated as inferior by products of the workplace.
Don't crap on America just because some bleeding hearts cried about some retarded football players in Cleveland not knowing what state they are in. Of course most footballers won't know what state they are in. They play football for a reason, they simply haven't the mental capacity to function well enough to understand complex things like the Alphabet.
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Have you been to any of these countries? Met any Japanese kids? If you have you must realise that they have an outstanding public education system and that their kids are raised to strongly value learning.
And which countries in europe mistreat women in the work place. Sweden which has paid maternity and paternity pay for over a year after the kid is born?
How are europeans lazy? I assume you are referring to individual countries within Europe as opposed to considering it one big country. If you are referring to countries like Italy Spain or Greece which still observe a siesta but also have shops and restuarants open till late at night you may do well to remember that all of these nations place an emphasis on work life balance. People here work to live not the other way around. One countries idea of lazy is anothers balanced. Of course you might mean Germany which has a guaranteed 6 weeks annual leave for all full time workers. last time i went there i did not see anyone lazing around. Perhaps you just dont like the French. Afterall if the book is correct their women dont get fat! Nobody knows because you did not specify which countries were lazy!
I don't think anyone was dissing Americans but your comments have hardly made you look like one of its intellectual elite!
I do agree though that in addition to international exposure the focus needs to be within the US as it appears that the majority of the TBS industry kids are American.
Yes I have been to Japan on three different occasions. I have also interacted with numerous teachers, or survivors, of the Japanese educational system. Who does like the French anyway? They get 8 weeks of annual leave to go roast their sorry asses on the Riveria.
Didn't say I was trying to look like I was an elite of sorts. I leave that psuedo babble nonsense to the Europeans. I have a living to make and a family to raise thank you very much.
International Exposure on TBS??? HAHAHAHAHAHAAH Woman you know so little about this country and the average American reaction to foreign intervention.
GET A CLUE!
Also pm me later on yahoo. I want to make fun of you more.. wink wink wink.. ahahahahahahah
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So mr International man of mystery. How many Eorupean countries have you visited? :wink:
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How many times have you spelled European right?
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So I made up a bunch of DVD's about programs and handed them out at my local church and supermarket and guess what!?!? !All the parents were asking me how can they send their kid away?! :D
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which is est repackaged. A lot of the stuff you all have written on these forums is very similar to the whole large group awareness training industry, where there is no regulation and a lot of abuse, in the name of helping.
There is a lot of info about the you tube video exposing landmark forum on the Rick Ross website. The rickross.com message board would welcome all the info, pro and con, anyone has about these boot camps and wilderness academies. That forum just registered it's 20,000th post, not to mention the thousands and thousands of views it has received.
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KK, can you do us a favor as well? If anyone on that forum has firsthand information about the things we talk about on Fornits, directly knows anyone who was subjected to this, or (most importantly!) is in a position to help stop it at least locally, can you please bring that person over here?
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Will do. People were posting there looking for help about a 1-1/2 yrs ago, but the forum really took off over the last year. Has anyone contacted Phil Elberg, who presented at the recent ICSA conference? He is an attorney who represented survivors of Kids of Bergen County, an abusive "mental health" residential program in NJ.
I'm just amazed at all I've learned in the last day about this - and it is so similar to LGATS, which I have experience with.
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Elberg is known on this forum. Search for his last name.
And what, the content of this forum is so disgusting that you can't even finish your sentences? Stick around- it only gets worse.
I've got the name Milk Gargling Death Penalty for a reason (http://http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16873863&BRD=1132&PAG=461&dept_id=157660&rfi=6).