Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Deborah on October 02, 2006, 03:00:58 PM
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Students shot dead at Amish school
Monday October 2, 2006
Guardian Unlimited
A lone gunman killed at least three young girls and critically wounded several others at an Amish school in Pennsylvania today, in the latest in a spate of school shootings.
The gunman, a truck driver who lived locally, took the schoolgirls hostage and tied them up before opening fire as negotiators surrounded the school. Troopers quickly stormed the small rural school and found the man dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.
Three girls, including one aged 11, are in a critical condition in hospital after suffering gunshot wounds. According to a statement from police, only three deaths were confirmed, but earlier the county coroner said six people were dead.
State police said the man, carrying a semi-automatic handgun and a shotgun, had sent all the boys out from the one-room school, along with the teacher and her assistants. Between 10 and 12 remaining girls, aged between six and 13 years old, were bound with wire.
Dozens of state troopers were dispatched to the school in Lancaster County, in south-east Pennsylvania, at 10.45 am local time (1445 GMT), nine minutes after an emergency call was received. The gunman threatened to open fire if the troopers did not leave the area. But before they could respond, police said, they heard shots being fired.
Police identified the gunman as Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, of Bart, Pennsylvania. The man had left suicide notes for his family. While no exact motive has been established, police said he had spoken of getting "revenge" for an incident that occurred 20 years ago.
The incident is the third fatal shooting at a US school in a week, but the first to hit the pacifist, isolated Amish community.
On Friday, a 15-year-old student fatally wounded his school headteacher in western Wisconsin. And a drifter in Colorado on Wednesday took six female high school students hostage, molesting them and shooting one, and himself, dead as police closed in.
Six confirmed dead
http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab= ... h%20school (http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&q=shooting%20amish%20school)
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Deborah, I hope you understand now why programs are needed.
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Not following your thinking.
32 is a little old for a program, don't ya think Be Sorry?
And who knows, maybe he attended a program 20 years ago, for which he was "seeking revenge".
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Another tragedy. These adults with issues from their schooldays exact a terrible and insane revenge. I'm sincerely glad I'm not a teenager in this generation, there's so much more to fear than just acne and alienation. Kids can't trust their moms and dads to deal with their teen angst, the parents are more likely to send them to an RTC to be "re-cooked". Now they have to worry about middle-aged adults taking out their childhood issues on them because they're young.
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I forgot to sign in above. BSarro, you're like an annoying insect, buzzing around and irritating people who have a better grip on reality. We're either program parents or survivors here. I don't know what the hell you are. I regard you as a parasite. Go suck somewhere else.
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Take this middle finger seriously. Once it goes up, it stays up, BSarro.
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Deborah, if this disturbed adult attended a program, there would have been at least hope for him. If he would have worked his program, he would have had a chance to live life the way God set forth for him. If he went to a program and did not work his program, then that is on him. But these great programs have to given a chance to do what the are doing the vast majrity of the time. And that is saving lives.
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D
help the rest of us out here please
1- what does this whacko shooter have to do with teen residential "programs", or is it a matter of "he might have gone to a program?
and B.S.
u help too - same basic question, but with a bit more justification for any connection to a "program"!
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My Justification for programs is simple. Apparently Special Ed can't help everyone. I said if the shooter ever attended a program, he might have never been a shooter. If he ever went to a program and worked his program, there is no way h would have shot anyone at all.
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:cry:
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B. ... u said "My Justification for programs is simple. Apparently Special Ed can't help everyone. I said if the shooter ever attended a program, he might have never been a shooter. If he ever went to a program and worked his program, there is no way h would have shot anyone at all."
a- if the kid's school district is paying for a tbs, as many in CA do, that falls under Special Ed. r u saying tbs etc can't help everyone or that some need the help only a tbs can give?
b- the very statement that if he ever went to and worked a "program" there is no way he would have shot is such utterly unsupportable, unreal nonsense as to defy belief that any even marginally logical person could have expressed it. that pro-program assertion is at least as far if not farther out of line as some of the unsupported anti-program assertions often seen. Indeed, if u r as proprogram as u say, u sure make a hell of a case against your own views.
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Deborah, if this disturbed adult attended a program, there would have been at least hope for him. If he would have worked his program, he would have had a chance to live life the way God set forth for him. If he went to a program and did not work his program, then that is on him. But these great programs have to given a chance to do what the are doing the vast majrity of the time. And that is saving lives.
http://www.fornits.com/SIBS (http://www.fornits.com/SIBS)
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:rofl:
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Im a bit confused about the term school shooting. I had always thought that it referred to either kids or perhaps teachers opening fire at school.
In this article the shooters were random adults unconnected with the school in any way. If this is included in the number counts of school shootings it potentially make it look like there are more kids doing these shootings than the case may really be.
On a sideline note. This is why i dont like civilians having the right to own guns.
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They havent said the reason for the revenge killings..but really, who needs a reason? there is no reason to kill innocent people. I dont care how crazy someone is. I think in these cases there is no explanation, their brains just snap and thats that. A person can go through horrific abuse growing up, and be fine as adults. Or they can go through just a little abuse or neglect, and grow up to kill hundreds. This man may have had a completely normal childhood. Or maybe something small, like an amish girl jilting him years ago set him off. He obviously had something wrong with him, but there may not have been any warning signs. There sure does seem to be alot of insanity going around lately though. Its very sad and disheartening.
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I have the same concern, about them being classified with the other school shootings. Gun restriction will never fly in this country. Talk about a revolution!! "The people" will tolerate all manner of abuse and oppression, but fuck with their guns and they'll come out shootin'. 'sides, they couldn't control liquor, how would they ever control guns? But.... enough of these episodes and the majority of sheeple might support gun control.
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gun control sounds like a good idea, on the surface. However, if someone wants to obtain a gun, they will get one, legal or not. I dont think gun control works. Stiffer fines for committing a crime with guns might help though. That and a better mental health support system for those in need. In my city they are shutting down a center for the mentally needy who dont have health insurance, and it is going to affect around 5,000 patients. Lack of funding is apparently the reason. These people have nowhere to turn. And its been a BIG deal in the news lately around here. Now my city is only about 70,000. 5,000 people is a big hunk of the population.
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yes. I am aware of the American love of guns. But i find it puzzling (see the Bowling for columbine thread)
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Ive seen the movie, dont need to read the link. I still dont agree with banning guns. Bad people will find a way to kill people whether they find guns illegally or stab people or bomb people. Its not the guns that kill the people, its the society that creates the people that want to shoot everybody to begin with. THATS the bottom line.
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D
help the rest of us out here please
1- what does this whacko shooter have to do with teen residential "programs", or is it a matter of "he might have gone to a program?
and B.S.
u help too - same basic question, but with a bit more justification for any connection to a "program"!
Duh!!!
"Revenge for something that happened 20 years ago".
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Wow! I was only going to post about the Paxton Boys cause it's a funny story about pacifism. The way I learned it from Francis Parkman (http://www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digital ... cifists%22 (http://www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/30053155/30053155.part_04.pdf#search=%22%2Bparkman%20paxton%20boys%20quaker%20pacifists%22)
But then this comes up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paxton_Boys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paxton_Boys)
and I just shake my head and wonder who wrote that and who believes it....
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Oz girl-
You are aware that "Bowling for Columbine" is a collection of clever edits, misrepresentations, and outright lies, right? Michael Moore is a funny guy, but his relationship with the truth is a loose one.
As for the "American love of guns"... well, that's just part of being a free man. Places like Australia are a lot like the programs some of us went through as teens. You think you're free, but when it comes down to it you have no means to resist coercion by any authority.
Just hope John Howard never decides that wearing black, talking about music, or having the occasional screw are verboten.
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i am aware of michael moores failings. I was referring to the thread discussing the issues the film raised more than giving a critique
As to John Howard. Most Australians dont have any false consciousness issues and are aware that our civil liberties and rights to free speech are more under threat than ever under this small petty little man. But this has little to do with gun control.
It is because howard likes to kiss bushes ass and play the me too game. Ie "you guys think it is reasonable to lock people up without charge for however long you want" So do we. If howard were a little leess concerned with what America thought of Australia we would have far more of the freedoms and liberties that have been lost.
So why did you people vote for such a fucktard you ask?
Greed. Economic prosperity. In the last election interest rates were down and unemployment was as well. Everyone took the money and ran.
Fact is Australia has always had fairly firm rules about who can own guns and why. They were tightened in the 90s further. Gun control laws work pretty well here. Most people here are happy to give up their right to a weapon that maimes & kills others for the greater good. Only a few people feel it is in the greater good to follow the US into this war on terror and all of the other alarming things that go with it.
but I too hope that John howard never decides
that wearing black, talking about music, or having the occasional screw are verboten because it is not just God that loves America it is little Johnny fucking howard!
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I got a newsflash for ya....NOBODY I know voted for Bush...either time....so..what does that tell ya....it wasnt the majority that voted for him....thanks to electronic voting machines, corrupt state govts, (florida), and other various "things", Bush was not the majority choice but got elected anyway. Dont think that WE as a nation like Bush....we dont. Some do, but the majority dont. The day cant come soon enough that that man gets elected out. Dont lump all us americans in with that man. Thats just plain insulting.
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Deborah, if this disturbed adult attended a program, there would have been at least hope for him. If he would have worked his program, he would have had a chance to live life the way God set forth for him. If he went to a program and did not work his program, then that is on him. But these great programs have to given a chance to do what the are doing the vast majrity of the time. And that is saving lives.
Here's a link to a kid who went to Peninsula Village and came OUT homicidal. http://www.newsobserver.com/196/story/192794.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/196/story/192794.html)
Saving lives? There's a list of a hundred kids whose lives weren't saved, their lives were ended by your beloved programs. BSarro, you sound like an Ed Con, which means you're a whore and some facility is your pimp.
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He was employed as a Milkman. Amish communties might be the only places that still have Milkmen. It would be insane to consider this a school shooting in the same catagory as Columbine and the others in which students, not outsiders were involved.
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Not a milkman. He worked for Land O Lakes and hauled large quantities of milk from area dairies.
He apparently was religious person, "he was angry at life and angry at God."
His father, also Charles Carl Roberts, a sergeant on the tiny Manor Township Police Department, retired from the force last year. He operates a 12-passenger shuttle van for Amish folks, who are prohibited from owning or operating motor vehicles.
The gunman's mother, Theresa, works at the vast Sound and Light Co. complex in nearby Strasburg, which bills itself as "the largest faith-based live theater in America" and "the Christian Broadway."
Roberts, who had no criminal record, was home-schooled. He married his local sweetheart, Marie Welk, and went to work for her father, who owned Northwest at the time.
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The fact that he targeted young girls, let the boys go, must play into the distress that motivated him to kill.
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Dont lump all us americans in with that man. Thats just plain insulting.
I dont really think i did that. I responded to the suggestion that Australia was less free because of Gun controls by pointing out that it is because of all these bullshit anti terror wars which our PM put in place to impress bush, who i believe is the leader of the US.
i am sorry if you found this unreasonable. I dont think that a criticism of what any govt is doing is necessarily a direct insult to its citizens.
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Thanks for clarifying Deborah. I only read the front page of one of the local papers here in NY.I have to read the rest of the story.
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Killer's sordid plan sharpens Amish pain
Wednesday Oct 4 06:16 AEST
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=149462 (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=149462)
Excerpts:
The truck driver who slaughtered five Amish schoolgirls meant to molest them first and confessed to sexually preying on young relatives 20 years ago, according to police.
Suicidal killer Charles Roberts, 32, was also "angry with God," hated himself over the death of his premature infant daughter nine years ago and dreamed of molesting again, State Police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller said.
With meticulous planning, Roberts took wood, latches and a lubricant to the one-room Pennsylvania schoolhouse, indicating intent to restrain and molest the schoolgirls before killing them, Miller said.
"With the kind of wood and I-bolts and flex cuffs and KY jelly and other things, ... it's very possible that he intended to victimize these children in many ways prior to executing them and killing himself," said the police chief.
"The KY jelly has no exact reason other than the potential for a sexual assault."
Roberts confessed to the past sexual assaults in a mobile phone call to his wife minutes before the slaughter, Miller said.
"He said 'I am not coming home,' and he states 'I molested some minor family members that were three or four years old, 20 years ago'," Miller said.
Roberts would have about 12 at the time.
"It's unknown what type of molestation whether it was fondling, or inappropriate touching or sexual assault or if anything occurred, we don't know."
"In his suicide note, he mentioned he was having dreams of molesting again," Miller said.
There was no evidence schoolhouse victims were molested before they were cut down in a hail of bullets which ended when Roberts turned the gun on himself.
The killer's wife said he was also traumatized by the loss of an infant daughter who lived for just 20 minutes after birth nine years ago.
"Roberts was angry with God for taking (her) as outlined in the suicide note," Miller said.
The tragic roll-call of the dead includes; Naomi Rose Eversole, 7; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lina Miller, 7.
Three girls, aged eight, 10 and 12, underwent surgery for gunshot wounds at Children's Hospital in Philadelphia, and remained in critical condition.
President George W. Bush said in California he and wife Laura were "saddened and deeply concerned" like other Americans over a string of school shootings in Pennsylvania, Colorado and Wisconsin.
"We grieve with the parents and we share the concerns of those who worry about safety in schools," he said and said his government was planning talks on school safety next week.
Roberts ordered the 15 boys aged six to 13 and their teacher, who summoned the police, to leave, keeping behind 10 girls.
Police said Roberts nailed lumber across the inside of doors of the school. The girls were bound with wire and plastic cord and lined up against the blackboard.
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I have the same concern, about them being classified with the other school shootings. Gun restriction will never fly in this country. Talk about a revolution!! "The people" will tolerate all manner of abuse and oppression, but fuck with their guns and they'll come out shootin'. 'sides, they couldn't control liquor, how would they ever control guns? But.... enough of these episodes and the majority of sheeple might support gun control.
They don't just snap:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/)
I believe that Myths 6, 9, and 10 are of great importance.
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...is a collection of clever edits, misrepresentations, and outright lies, right?
Just like Fox News.
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I believe that Myths 6, 9, and 10 are of great importance.
Great article!
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Re: #6 ?He was crazy.?
"Only one-third of the attackers had ever been seen by a mental health professional, and only one-fifth had been diagnosed with a mental disorder. Substance abuse problems were also not prevalent. ?However, most attackers showed some history of suicidal attempts or thoughts, or a history of feeling extreme depression or desperation.? Most attackers had difficulty coping with significant losses or personal failures."~~
Not sure who compiled this data, but it's inaccurate.
7 of the last 12 shooters have been confirmed to have been taking or withdrawing from psych drugs.
TODAY FOX NEWS ADDRESSED THE ISSUE OF ANTIDEPRESSANTS AND SCHOOL SHOOTERS.
Douglas Kennedy interview Sheila Matthews, founder of Able Child.
See video here:
http://mms.tveyes.com/ExpandGuest.asp?ln=140891 (http://mms.tveyes.com/ExpandGuest.asp?ln=140891)
(http://mms.tveyes.com/transcript.asp (http://mms.tveyes.com/transcript.asp))
30 million on antidepressants. 5% will develop mania. That's 1.5 million potential maniacs waiting to explode.
The Secret Services's findings on School Shooters:
http://www.ustreas.gov/usss/ntac/chicago_sun/find15.htm (http://www.ustreas.gov/usss/ntac/chicago_sun/find15.htm)
Why Prevention might not help
http://www.ustreas.gov/usss/ntac/chicag ... hoot16.htm (http://www.ustreas.gov/usss/ntac/chicago_sun/shoot16.htm)
And check out this unbelievable list of adverse effects/murders/suicides since 1988
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?sort=date (http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?sort=date)
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Perhaps they were taking them without being seen by a mental health professional?
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Some weird fanatical religious bunch, Baptists, plan on protesting at the funerals. They say that it was God's will that they were gunned down b/c they were heathens, blah blah blah...
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Yeah, Fred Phelps, Westboro Baptist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_phelps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_phelps)
Same asshole who was protesting Matthew Shepard's funeral in Laramie. Now they've agreed not to protest the funeral but only in exchange for air time on both radio and television to espouse his twisted beliefs.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217760,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217760,00.html)
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I wish someone would 'execute' god's will on some of those people. They should die before they have time to breed any more.
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The thing with Fred is that he's an honest, emotionally consistent person who maintains a steady message in the face of overwhelming opposition. He's even logical; his statements are direct products of what he believes to be true. It's just that what he believes to be true is complete fucking lunacy, which is where the problems come in...