Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Gregg on September 12, 2006, 10:58:43 PM
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http://http://www.garynull.com
Video here: (Must See..)
http://mms://wm.kinodigital.na-central.speedera.net/wm.kinodigital.na-central/garynull/trailers/druging_of_tr_new.wmv[/url]
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Warning: This poster is a clam (Scientology adherent).
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=216137#216137 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=216137#216137)
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Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong..
Don't like what Garl Knull and Michael Moore have to say now do you?
That's too bad but this is still a free country..
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Many years ago children in the city needed a place to stay during the day. Due to lack of space in the cities, we like many other countries developed kindergartens where they parents dropped their kids down in the town, whereafter the children rode by bus to a protected wood outside the city. There they play and eat outside until it is time for a busride back to the city.
It happens every day the year around unless we have a storm approaching.
Dont they kids get hurt from time to time? Yes, they do. It is wood. Not a playground. Broken parts of the body is something that happens every year.
Why continue now that city-planning have eliminated the original problem? Because our research have shown, that certain kind of childrens can benefit by staying out regardsless of the weather: Kids that are overactive regardless of the cause. Kids that otherwise would have been medicated because they would have been too demanding to the often short-handed staff.
Some children are ill and would need medication at some point. But the point can be postponed. Some children would benefit from "being out in the woods" fra the age of 3 to the age of 7 blowing steem of because it is a kind of phase in their life. But our results are good and medication for that agegroup of children are down.
However, some things are yet not researched fully. This group of children have less sickness compared with children from an ordinary kindergarten. Cold is almost not known. We are looking into that at the moment in order improve the healtcare for the other children.
Do you have kindergartens like that overthere or is the risk of a lawsuit too high?
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Growing up we had a form of Kindegarten, it started for children at 5 years of age and the next year we entered school..
What we also has was recesses, at least twice a day besides lunch at that's when we ran off all the extra energy. And later on came organised sports, that worked especially well for kids with too much energy.
And in the classroom our ADD-ADHD symtoms were kept in check by a big paddle that hung from the wall, the one I remember best was called "The Board Of Education" and we all knew exactly what it was there for..
This was the day of when medicating children meant an occasional aspirin at times from the school nurse, this was long before Big Pharma had invaded the schools..
There was a special education class for slow learners but they could all read and usually went onto some type of vocational training, many of them did very well in life later on..
No..., in my school not one child was stigmitized with some psychiatric disorder.., there was really nothing at all wrong with any of them. They respected their parents and they respected authority. It was a far different and better world back then, and that's only going back about 40 years.
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Covergaard: No. Not even close, as far as my knowledge. Best thing you'd get here is a day care that does that sort of thing, or the parents doing it themselves. But you've walked into a minefield of a thread and probably should have posted that in a new topic.
Original retard: Gary Null is at best a swindler and at worst an outright fraud, notable for his demented conspiracy shit and quack products.
And yes, he's a clam, or at least allied with them: http://gnhealth.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1120 (http://gnhealth.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1120) (the "Citizens Commission on Human Rights" is a Scientology front)
Gregg: Like I said, you've come to the wrong fucking forum. Nobody here is going to let bullshit slide.
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Gary Null is a fine doctor and to call him a swindler is pure nonsense..
And what do you call Michael Moore? Another fraud is he? What does he have to do with Scientology..
Sorry, most of the folks apposed to the abused of psychiatry have nothing to do with Scientology. Why don't you address the charges they are making instead of assaulting their character like you've done to Gary Null?
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::troll:: ::troll:: ::troll::
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Boring.
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Covergaard,
There is research that indicates that children are happier and fare better when they spend time in nature.
When I was growing up kids walked home from school and played outside until their parent forced them in for dinner. Anymore, you never see a kid outside unless they're participating in an organized sporting activity. Have you ever observed what happens when you take a fussy baby outside? Kids need lots of time outdoors. They are living in bubbles these days, much to their detriment. No sunshine, no exercise, no fresh air. It's an unhealthy lifestyle for which the "cure" is not drugs. Kids don't have a Ritalin deficiet.
Excerpt from an article on the research:
In ongoing studies by the Human-Environment Research Laboratory at the University of Illinois, researchers have discovered tantalizing evidence for a new view of the syndrome. In a 2004 study published in the American Journal of Public Health, the laboratory found that children as young as five showed a significant reduction in ADHD symptoms when they engaged with nature.
Parents and guardians were asked to identify after-school or weekend activities that left their children functioning particularly well or poorly. The study measured responses to two types of activities: those in green landscapes?such as grassy backyards, parks, and farmland?and those in indoor playgrounds and paved recreation areas. The researchers designed the study to account for any effects of physical exercise so they could measure only the influence of green settings. They also factored out age, gender, family income, geographic region, size of community, and the severity of diagnosis.
In fifty-four of fifty-six cases, outdoor activities in more natural settings led to a greater reduction in ADHD symptoms than activities in less natural areas. The only instances when symptoms worsened occurred in the artificial environments. In a related experiment, the laboratory found that children could focus on specific tasks better in green settings.
http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/05-4om/Louv.html (http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/05-4om/Louv.html)
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Milk,
Do you know that CCHR is staunchly opposed to Restraints in RTCs and is responsible for bring us the Hartford Courant Investigative Report "Deadly Restraint"?
http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB05/1998 ... ant11.html (http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB05/1998hartfordcourant11.html)
Does that mean you're a shill for Scientology?
It sometimes happens that one's values overlap with organizations they otherwise may not have anything else in common with. I have often been accused of being a Scientologist for my outspoken opinion on the Quack industry of Psychiatry.
And as Gregg said, there are many who oppose Psychiatry who aren't Scientologists.
Remember Scheff vs WWASP? Who do you support in that fight? Well many supported Scheff. It was important that she win that case to set a precedent. Doesn't mean any of us approve of her Ed Con business.
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Yeh, I can see where dodge ball could be effective, especially with 10 balls!! Might serve to push them over the bell curve like the drugs do.
I think it's both, being in nature and being without structured activities. But, any nature is better than no nature. There are many important factors involved with being outside. Fresh air, Sunshine (melatonin is important to good sleep and general well being), can be noisy without being shushed, a sense of boundless freedom, etc.etc. Perfect place for kids.
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i think that discounting psychiatry all together is throwing the baby out with the bath water. I would agree that drugs should not nececarily be the first port of call particularly in kids. I also agree that many things are possibly over diagnosed or could be fixed by diet, excercise more attentive parenting, counselling etc. ADD in kids and mild depression in teens for example.
But mental illness is real and if untreated can potentially be devistating for both the patient and their loved ones. I know that if i had scitzophrenia (i know that is not spelt correctly) and there was a drug that could ease the symptoms and help me function, i would take it.
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the above poster was me. Dramas logging in :)
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Well first let's understand a few facts about ADD-ADHD. It is not a disease by any legitimate definition. There is no biopsy, blood test, not one diagnostic test can authenticate the existance of this alledged disease. Rather it is a abitrary group of perfectly normal behavior mannerisms that are now called a disease.. This is the real lunacy. Yes, there are allergic reactions to processed foods, there are undiagnosed REAL medical conditions, there is poor diet and living enviroments and there is especially the harmful reactions to the drugs (poison) given to treat this fake disorder - especially when withdrawel symptoms begin to occur and the next dose is needed. (No, that is not evidence of any disorder but addiction instead..)
So to discuss alternative methods of treating so-called ADD-ADHD there in reality only one. Evict the therapists and counselors from the schools and don't let them near another child again. That is the only real cure for ADD-ADHD.
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You're totally full of shit. ADD/ADHD may not be detectable by a biopsy or a blood test, but the symptoms are real -- in kids who truly have the disorder -- and certain meds do actually help those symptoms.
I agree ADD/ADHD is way over-diagnosed these days. But for some small percentage of kids, the problems are real and the pharmaceutical treatment provides some relief.
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You're totally full of shit. ADD/ADHD may not be detectable by a biopsy or a blood test, but the symptoms are real -- in kids who truly have the disorder -- and certain meds do actually help those symptoms.
Prove it.
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No, you prove it, retard.
And stop hiding behind guest postings when you have a username. You're not fooling anyone.
When dealing with something as ugly and monolithic as a massively bloated psychomedical establishment, the last thing we need is the usual array of quacks and charlatans like Gary Null and the Church of Clamology.
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I agree ADD/ADHD is way over-diagnosed these days. But for some small percentage of kids, the problems are real and the pharmaceutical treatment provides some relief.
Can you clarify how they work?
What is the chemical composition of Ritalin?
Is Cocaine really the "cure" for any disease?
The question for drugs is the same as for programs: Does the means justify the end, when there are safer alternative?
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No, you prove it, retard.
And stop hiding behind guest postings when you have a username. You're not fooling anyone.
When dealing with something as ugly and monolithic as a massively bloated psychomedical establishment, the last thing we need is the usual array of quacks and charlatans like Gary Null and the Church of Clamology.
Relax, I'm agreeing with you. And I'll post however the fuck I wanna post.
:D
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Look MGDP, you're the one who is obviously disturbed and needs to be helped. How the helpless and innocent victims who speak out about the harm done to them in that video can fail to move anyone is beyond comprehension. Your rants, accusation and slander are those of someone with no real caring & compassion in their heart at all. One part of the video speaks of 65 set of parents who lost children for being medicated (that's 65 dead children btw who should still be living..) and all you can do is attack the folks who bring awareness about these issues to those who need know about them..
Why should that be a problem for you???
Explain yourself..
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First Guest: Do you have ADD or something? Shouldn't it have been obvious which one of you I was replying to?
Gregg posting under Guest name: Shut the fuck up. You're nowhere near as good at the ad hominem as I am, so quit trying to pretend.
I don't even have a player that will take that video link, and frankly if it's as full of shit as the rest of that useless site, I'm not interested in watching it.
THIS link will show the reality of Ritalin: http://www.capecodonline.com/special/add/day1main.htm (http://www.capecodonline.com/special/add/day1main.htm)
Ritalin isn't dope. Ritalin is the opposite of dope, which is why college students use it to study. Ritalin works because they were either born doped or had brain damage done to them in very early childhood. It turns on circuitry that should have already been on to begin with. Chocolate-covered espresso beans, as you so laughably posted elsewhere? Guess what, coffee and chocolate are both stimulants, so of course it works! Way to accomplish the exact same thing, although probably less effectively. Maybe there should be a clinical trial done with that versus Ritalin.
This, of course, ought to be even more disturbing than the "our kids are being drugged!" line. These kids are born fucked up. Something happened to them to make them that way. What? Considering the enormous rate of pregnant women smoking in this country, I'd love to point a good, solid finger there. Other chemicals might have a similar effect on the developing fetal brain. In other words, what we really need is a good, long, biochemical investigation of what's gone wrong with these children, what influence is causing this, and how we can take it out of the environment.
Thing is, almost no one wants this, not the pharmaceutical industry and especially not quack "naturopaths" who don't want to admit that the human body is, indeed, governed by chemical reactions.
No no no, it's just more clam-like bullshit for you.
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First Guest: Do you have ADD or something? Shouldn't it have been obvious which one of you I was replying to?.
Yeah, I said "prove it" to the person who posted about meds working for ADD/HD and you said..........
"No, you prove it, retard.
And stop hiding behind guest postings when you have a username. You're not fooling anyone. "
Looks like you were addressing me but I guess I could be wrong.
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Ah, I figured you were the same smacktard as Gregg, then. We're not on the same side at all.
The problem isn't that Ritalin doesn't work.
The problem is that it does work, and it shouldn't.
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Ok, ok. You win. We're not on the same side at all.
:roll:
I think this country has flipped it's fucking lid with this ADD/HD, bipolar, depression bullshit. I really do. It's one thing to try and identify difficulties a kid may be having in school, or a person in their lives but it's quite another to dope practically an entire generation.
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but it's quite another to dope practically an entire generation.
You're not even going to address where I said that Ritalin isn't dope? Do you have... attention span problems?
See, if I were a monomaniacal, diabolical, control freak out to subjugate American kids through prescription drugs, the last thing I would give them is something to stimulate their brain and increase their focus. (This much is proven, by the college students taking it for that exact purpose.) Focused people are many, many times more dangerous when pissed off. An unfocused adolescent who hates you will commit minor acts of vandalism and write anarchy symbols on the walls in pen. A focused one will systematically destroy everything you stand for.
Sio the whole "they're all out to drug our kids!" conspiracy theory, like almost every other one, falls right through.
Now is anyone willing to address the issue of what the hell happened to these kids to make them need Ritalin for basic self control?
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Milk,
I appreciate you in many ways, so don't take this the wrong way, but you are gravely misinformed on Ritalin and ADD/HD.
Ritalin doesn't "work" because kids have brain damage or were born defective. It works because it is an amphetamine and speed pushed hyper people over the bell curve. Ritalin doesn't turn on any "circuitry". Who is hawking that theory?
College kids take/snort Ritalin to get a buzz. They like it so much and it's so readily available there's a burgeoning black market for it and other legal drugs.
No one, even the Scientologists you despise, claims that people/kids don't have emotional distresses. Consumers need to know that most of psychiatry is not based in science. They are in fact volunteering to be guniea pigs. And if they are informed, then it's their choice. Most advocates of any persuasion, want transparency and informed consent.
And if you really believe that the pharmaceutical industry isn't loving life right now, you are again wrong. Every child and adult involved with a public school, every pregnant women or elderly person will be screened for mental illness in the next few years, unless it's stopped, to find the estimated 40% of the population who are "mentally ill" and in need of treatment. Do you believe that statistic? I don't.
Chemical restraint, program restraint, not much difference.
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Again MGDP, you're the one that has problem, not the kids you're stigmitizing and advocating drugging for fake illnesses.. According to these experts, Ritalin is more powerful that Cocaine..
http://http://www.slate.com/id/2076413/
Dr. Peter Breggin on Ritalin
http://http://www.breggin.com/congress.html
Table I summarizes many of the most salient adverse effects of all the commonly used stimulant drugs. It is important to note that the Drug Enforcement Administration, and all other drug enforcement agencies worldwide, classify methylphenidate (Ritalin) and amphetamine (Dexedrine and Adderall) in the same Schedule II category as methamphetamine, cocaine, and the most potent opiates and barbiturates. Schedule II includes only those drugs with the very highest potential for addiction and abuse.
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It works because it is an amphetamine and speed pushed hyper people over the bell curve.
This doesn't even make sense. Pushed them in which direction?
And if you read xenu.net for a while, you'd quickly despise the clams too. Or google for child abuse and Scientology for a while.
College kids take/snort Ritalin to get a buzz.
Some, yes- but far from all. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 81_pf.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/10/AR2006061001181_pf.html)
"What was a surprise, though, was the alarming rate of senior business majors who have used" the drugs, he writes. Almost 90 percent reported at least occasional use of "smart pills" at crunch times such as final exams, including Adderall, Ritalin, Strattera and others.
They wouldn't be using it if it didn't work.
Here's the real, experimental, they-looked-inside-the-brain data on Ritalin:
http://www.the-aps.org/press/journal/06/11.htm (http://www.the-aps.org/press/journal/06/11.htm)
Oh, and retard? Check your own links. That Slate article destroys your point.
those who naturally lack an adequate amount of dopamine, such as people diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder,
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ok youve got me. i cant prove the existence of ADD by pointing to a particular imbalance in the brain & I understand that the jury is still out. What i am about to say is based solely on my own observations
I have worked (on both a paid and voluntary basis) with kids on and off for 12 years . Usually coachng sporting teams. Un fortunately wihle diagnosis does not seem to have reached the fever pitch of the US here it is on the rise and it seems to be on the rise for any kid who is "difficult". This is of concern. But there are a few kids who do seem to geniunely be unable to focus on anything and who have real troubles sleeping at any time and whose doctors do diagnose them. When i was growing up it was called being "hyperactive". Perhaps for them this is a real condition and for a smal percentage of these kids drugs when everything else has been tried works.
Moreover there are many medical conditions that doctors diagnose with a series of symptoms rather than pinpointign a spot in the brain. Look at epilepsy. When doctors take a series of tests and scans to diagnose this what they are doing is simply ruling out other things that they can see llike tumors and trauma or bruising to explain the fact that the patient is siezing. medication in addition to lifestyle changes works in controlling this condition and gives the patient a normal life.
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Again with the login issues! :roll:
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Ritalin works because they were either born doped or had brain damage done to them in very early childhood. It turns on circuitry that should have already been on to begin with. Chocolate-covered espresso beans, as you so laughably posted elsewhere? Guess what, coffee and chocolate are both stimulants, so of course it works! Way to accomplish the exact same thing, although probably less effectively. Maybe there should be a clinical trial done with that versus Ritalin.
Caffeine actually is helpful for many people (including adults of all ages) who have some degree of ADD symptoms. Caffeine is probably the most widely used drug for treating undiagnosed and otherwise untreated ADD in adults. They may not know or believe they have ADD -- they just know that 5 or 6 cups of coffee a day, starting in the morning and continuing well into the afternoon, helps them "stay focused" and "concentrate" and "get things done." I am one of them. And I also know that I can drink a cup of coffee at midnight and still fall asleep a half hour later.
Could I achieve the same thing with other drugs? Sure. But I like my coffee, and my ADD isn't so severe -- I can actually concentrate for more than 10 seconds even without my daily coffee fix.
Drugs have side effects and risks, even moderate doses of caffeine. That's a trade-off some of us are willing to make, in exchange for the kind of life and the kind of school and/or job success we want.
You don't have to prove or disprove anything about ADD/ADHD. All you have to do is try the meds and ask, "is this better or worse than before?" If the answer is "much better than before," then you (or your parents if you are a minor) must evaluate that trade-off between risk and quality of life.
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***Despite its wide use, little is known about how the drug, a chemical cousin of amphetamines, produces its therapeutic effects. Researchers want to unlock the mystery of why the drug has the paradoxical effect of decreasing hyperactive behavior and increasing the ability to focus, even though it is a stimulant, said Barry Waterhouse, the study?s senior author.
From the article you linked to.
Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't ya want to know how/why the drug worked and it's negative side-effects before you gave it to your child?
How long have they been prescribing and 'researching' Ritalin? Three decades? Shouldn't they have some clue by now? Truth is, they still don't know. All the while, Ritalin has become a Lifestyle enhancement drug. It enhances performance, just like Cocaine, therefore people who take it will ferociously defend it. Fine, defend it, use it; but don't delude yourself that it is a miracle drug that "cures" anything. There are doctors and consumers who firmly believe, based on the fraudulent information they've read, that there are tests to verify ADD/HD- and that Ritalin is the cure. It's just not the case. The unse of amphetamines for "hyperactive" people was an accident. They're still trying to explain 'why' it works. I feel certain it's the bell curve theory I mentioned. If you choose to take them, be sure to have your liver, heart, kidney function checked frequently. Oh, might also want an MRI to see if your brain is shrinking, if that's important.
It's always a trade-off with any drug. One has the freedom to decide if Grades and salary over-ride health, ultimately. Again, the issue for all activists is transparency- Ensuring that the consumer is informed. And ruling out all medical, neurological, environmental factors first. I think kids deserve that much.
Pls help, Epilepsy is a bonafide neurological disorder, which can't be compared to ADD. I took phenabarbitol and dilantin for a couple of years to control A-typical epilepsy. What "cured" my mild epileptic attacks was getting out of the city and reducing stress. It was nothing short of miraculous. While away, I learned to better manage stress, not intentionally, but by chance. Back in the city, sometimes extreme distress, I've had 3-4 seizures in 5 years. This after being medication/seizure free for 22 years. I firmly believe they're directly related to stress, and possibly environmental toxins.
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I would agree with most of what the article you have posted has to say. I dont think any drug can "cure" any medical condition but it can control the symptoms. I also dont like the idea of sticking a kid on a drug and making it a permanent thing. i also accept that the symptoms of epilepsy or some mental illnesses ( i am not suggesting that epliepsy is a mental illness btw. i know it is a nurological disorder) are far more literally definable.
However how do we know whether it is a bonafide condition or not if the medical jury is still out? If in the rare event that all other methods of controlling the symptoms have been tried and have had litle to no effect, putting a kid on medication- which has been prescribed afer considerable discussion with a qualified doctor may be the answer for a few people. I would be more concerned that any random person who is working with kids (teachers coaches etc) seem to have the power to recommend the parent have their kid diagnosed with anything when they have absolutely no medical qualification to make that call. i would be alarmed if a parent asked for my medical opinion when my job is to teach the kid to swim!
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***However how do we know whether it is a bonafide condition or not if the medical jury is still out?
That?s a good question for the APA and all their mouthpieces who preach that it?s genetic/hereditary, brain chemical imbalance, a ?disease?- implying that it is a medical condition supported by science, turns off circuits (never heard that one before), ADDers have smaller brains (when in fact the research participants had already been taking Ritalin prior to the scans). Instead of rumor mongering, they should be up front- we don?t know what the hell causes it, we can't cure it, we can only minimize your symptoms at best, and here are the potential health risks associated with the drugs. So, back to the scans for a moment? why hasn?t anyone bothered to redo that research with ?clean? participants?. Um, I?m guessing they know it will prove nothing, except that Ritalin is capable of shrinking kids brains.
Full disclosure and honesty. Exactly what we ask of programs. Isolation, torture, humiliation appear to ?work? well for a few, in terms of diminishing the symptoms of ?ODD?, but do the means justify the end? For some, they do. Same with drugs. I think drugging our kids is a sign of the times and will get much worse before it gets better. It?s been suggested that about 1% (correct me if I?ve misquoted) of kids actually could benefit from some humane residential treatment until stable, might that be about the percentage of kids who may actually need drugs until the ?real? issue can be identified and remedied? That?s my guess.
Thanks to some dear friends of mine, Texas teachers and school districts are no longer allowed to ?practice without a license? by referring kids for drugs. They can not deny a child an education if their parent refuses to drug him/her. A few other states have followed our lead, but it continues in most states.
Parents have options, just as they have options other than programs. They are not as easily accessible or a quick fix, and more times than not, the parent has to change to make any lasting change in an ADD child. A pill a day is unfortunately much easier to manage.
If you don?t use the terms illness/disease, no insurance payments, no special services, no peer sympathy, come to think of it? no drugs. Can?t prescribe drugs without an illness, then you're just a pusher.
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I won't pretend to be an expert on psychiatry, so I consulted my own expert. My ex is a board certified psychiatrist. She seems to be aligned more or less with Deborah's view.
The first thing she said was, "Ritalin is speed."
My ex says ADHD, if it exists at all, is way over diagnosed and often used as an excuse for poor parenting. She says Ritalin is dangerous and the latest long term studies show that long-term, irreversable changes in the brain (damage) can result from its continued use. ADHD (the APA has dropped ADD), is diagnosed as a subset of Bi-Polar disorder; which means bi-polar must be ruled out before even considering ADHD. She also agrees that no one knows why a stimulant works to calm some people down. They just know it works based on the results.
She does, however, feel that bi-polar disorder is a very real and serious condition. People that really are bi-polar, have a difficult time managing their lives.
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Texas teachers and school districts are no longer allowed to ?practice without a license? by referring kids for drugs.
I don't think anyone is going to argue with you on this one.
All psychiatric evaluations should be done independently, by an unbiased, independent, qualified professional who is not beholden to anyone, and that person's recommendations should only be advice for the parents. The idea of unqualified people, possibly with their own axes to grind and products to promote, diagnosing children is obscene, and the idea of anyone in government being legally allowed to ram drugs down children's throats is even more obscene and those people need to suffer the eventual fate of the programmies (painful, violent death). Similarly, parents who give Ritalin to their kids with the impression that it's some sort of 'magic quiet pill' need to be smacked upside the head.. with a crowbar.. at 250 mph.
On the other hand, it really does cure the basic condition of not being able to concentrate, as reported first-hand by numerous college students using it.
And still nobody on either side of the fence wants to ask why they're not able to concentrate, as if this is normal among children. "Hyperactive" is a huge misnomer- most laymen think it means "highly active". No no no. We're talking about kids who can't do one thing, even something they like to do, for five minutes straight, kids who have their trains of thought constantly derailed. And there's also plain ADD (although they're calling it something else ---> link (http://http://www.kidsource.com/LDA-CA/ADD_WO.html)), which contains no hyperactivity element at all- they're still being distracted, they're just not reacting to it in the same way. What are, or aren't, these kids getting to make them like this? Biochemical answers only, please.
One side doesn't want to look at the cause of the problem, and the other side doesn't want to admit there might be a problem at all. Lovely.
Independence, evaluation, and sound science.. is that really so much to ask?
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Milk,
You're misrepresenting the side that you say "doesn't want to admit there's a problem at all". I've addressed that a couple of times now and what activists want.
If you think there's a biochemical explanation, go find it and post it. I'm not wasting my time searching for something I know doesn't exist.
While you're researching, see if you can find what conditions stimulate the production of adreneline in children, and the ill effects of long-term over-production of adreneline might have.
Every case is different, there will never be a pat answer for ADD. It's like working a jigsaw puzzle, but there are certainly lists or priorities one would work through in searching for the cause of a childs inattentiveness. Every aspect of the seriously distracted child's life should be evaluated. Starting with an observation of the family dynamics.
PS I think you took my comment literally. Teachers can't diagnose, but they sure were telling parents their kid was ADD and needed medication and the system was backing them, in effect, diagnosing.
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I'm not wasting my time searching for something I know doesn't exist.
If you're that convinced, why should I waste my time replying to you at all?
I mean I have better things to- ooh, shiny!
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This one lady here in california got a prescription for medical cannabis for her son, he was like eight or something, young kid. He had really bad medical problems, seizures and stuff like that, and ADHD. The kid never new he was getting 'pot', and probably too young to be freaked out anyways because he hadn't gone through his drug-fearing brainwashing yet... anyways, she fed him in cookies. His seizures stopped completely and his health got a lot better and calmed down and his diet increase. his doctor thought it was a good idea, his mom, but aparently the dea did not and raided this ladies house and arrested her and charged her with supplying drugs to a youth and all that shit. problem was... she was too open about it. they dont want any activists out there aparently. isnt it weird this govt will raid your house and risk shooting you and your family over and herb but loves the idea of feeding pills to everyone? if adhd is real i support cannabis for kids! :P
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Independence, evaluation, and sound science.. is that really so much to ask?
Sound science you ask???
Whenever sound scientific principles are applied to the ADHD issue it becomes immediatly clear the this alledged disease doesn't meet even the most basic requirement that every real disease does, so what your are asking for again..
Independence, evaluation, and sound science.. is that really so much to ask?
Is what you are constantly arguing against when that very issue of "sound science" enters this debate though you did sidestep this dose of "sound science"..
According to these experts, Ritalin is more powerful that Cocaine..
http://http://www.slate.com/id/2076413/
Dr. Peter Breggin on Ritalin
http://http://www.breggin.com/congress.html
Table I summarizes many of the most salient adverse effects of all the commonly used stimulant drugs. It is important to note that the Drug Enforcement Administration, and all other drug enforcement agencies worldwide, classify methylphenidate (Ritalin) and amphetamine (Dexedrine and Adderall) in the same Schedule II category as methamphetamine, cocaine, and the most potent opiates and barbiturates. Schedule II includes only those drugs with the very highest potential for addiction and abuse.
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Don't you read, retard? The Slate article destroys your point.
those who naturally lack an adequate amount of dopamine, such as people diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder,
And Breggin thinks that by mashing all the effects of all the stimulants out there together and listing all the side effects as if they were all equally common, he can convince everyone that Ritalin is the same as cocaine.
That's just fear mongering, pure and simple. The reason the DEA classifies Ritalin with the others is because of drug abuse, not drug use. In this case that means grinding Ritalin up and snorting it, or making an injectable solution out of it, both of which have far more stark effects. Hey, wait, that was in the first link you posted!
Fear mongering, regurgitation or the same tired crap, reference to 'hundreds of studies' without mentioning where they're from... no wonder Congress obviously didn't listen to him.
And, again, nobody wants to even look at the rat brain data. "It's not there if we don't look at it..."
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You may want to speak to Tony Tommasello at the University Of Maryland about that.. He also stated in the USA Today that Ritalin is virtually identical to Cocaine, he heads the pharmacuetical college there btw..
Here's a pretty imformative article for you though they are wrong stating that ritalin in normal dosages is not addictive. I clearly recall the original manufacturer stating just the opposite in theor warning pamphlet..
Anyway, this should help you..
http://http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/units/addiction/issues/ritalin.cfm
ADHD children are typically taken off of Ritalin when they reach adulthood. Interestingly, these individuals seem to be more prone to cocaine addiction. Why is that? Because Ritalin and cocaine are similar drugs, it's possible that ADHD adults are unknowingly using cocaine as a replacement for Ritalin. In other words, it may be an attempt to self-medicate. Cocaine may help individuals with ADHD focus, feel calm and in control.
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Here's a pretty imformative article for you though they are wrong stating that ritalin in normal dosages is not addictive.
Do you have any idea how stupid that is? If I had about 70 less IQ points and had to resort to your excuse for logic, I could just as easily say "Well, they're dead right when they say that it's not addictive, but they're wrong when they compare it to cocaine."
Even though this is high school chemistry, I think I'm going to fly over everyone's heads here...
The molecules are similar in that they both contain one complete carbon (benzene) ring connected to the rest of the atom, and a similar structure on the other side. Cocaine has an additional oxygen-containing structure separating the two parts of the molecule. In Ritalin, one of the second benzene rings has a carbon molecule replaced by nitrogen; in cocaine, opposite sides of that molecule are connected by nitrogen. Cocaine also has a different 'tail' without the ammonia (CH3) at the end of it. They do contain significant similarities. They perform the same general function as stimulants. They're still not the exact same. Apes and humans have more in common.
Here's some skeletal images that are easier to look at.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Coca ... eletal.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cocaine-2D-skeletal.png)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Methylphenidate.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Methylphenidate.png)
But it still gives me an interesting idea. Let's make cocaine in a time-release form akin to the way Ritalin is released now, and do clinical trials on ADHD people with it.
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Good discussion MGDP. Just one correction -- the CH3 is a methyl group (derived from methane, CH4). Ammonia is NH3. Anyway, if you had this stuff in high school chemistry, you were way ahead of me. I didn't see this until college.
But your point is well taken: Cocaine and Ritalin are chemically related but they are definitely not the same thing, just as methanol and ethanol are related but not the same -- both can make you drunk, but one will also make you permanently blind.
All stimulants are chemically related, including caffeine. They may achieve their effects by different biochemical means, but the end result is the same -- increased levels of the neurotransmitter dopamine. (Some stimulants also affect other neurotransmitters, but that's a secondary effect). The differences in the "high" or how one chemical or another makes a person feel are mostly related to the time required for dopamine levels to increase and the level to which they increase. So in that sense, Ritalin or caffeine might be considered similar to a hypothetical slow-acting form of cocaine, or perhaps a slow-acting form of methamphetamine.
ADHD is not a disease, it is a disorder -- a collection of symptoms, the cause of which is not precisely known. If it is in fact true that ADHD is related to dopamine deficiency, then it makes perfect sense that stimulants would be one way to correct the deficiency. Any stimulant would do that, but some have worse addictive potential and other harmful side-effects. Ritalin or caffeine seem relatively innocuous if they help and if the side effects are tolerable. Cocaine or crystal meth could just as well do the job, but I wouldn't recommend giving either of those to ADD/ADHD sufferers for lots of reasons!
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Let us now wax philosophical.
One discussion has repeatedly cropped up between my ex and myself concerning psychiatry is the idea of what is normal. From my point of view, as an athiest, I view religious people as suffering from a delusion. In other words, if you believe in God, you must be delusional or mentally ill.
My ex laughs and explains that psychiatry and psychology openly use the concept of what is 'culturally normal.' For example, homosexuality was considered a psychological disorder in the same way as pedophilia still is. When homosexuality became more acceptable, psychiatry changed to say that homosexuality was only a disorder if the patient was uncomfortable with it. Then it was the only disorder classified as a disorder when the patient said so, and considered normal if the patient said so. Now, of course, it is not considered an abnormality or disorder at all.
Culture does determine what we consider a disorder.
So once again, does ADHD exist, or are these kids with lower than 'normal' dopamine levels just being marginalized by a cultural bias towards a particular behavior set? That is why she said, "...if it exists at all.." What constitutes abnormal dopamine levels? Who determines the range?
In my life, I see that children are pushed harder and expected to do more at ever earlier ages. I began kindergarten at age five. It lasted one-half day that included a nap time and a milk and cookies time. We learned the alphabet and how to count. I learned to read in first grade at age six.
Now, we expect kids to be reading by age four or five. Daycare is called preschool and lasts all day. By six they are doing book reports and presenting them to the class.
My personal feelings are that the greater expectations of children in general, in our one-size-fits all education system, are marginalizing children that during my childhood years, would not have been considered abnormal at all. Thus the diagnosis of ADHD is born.
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I love sand box fights!
I think its all that chicken meat with the chemicals.