Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 05, 2006, 12:58:04 PM
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http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/ ... p/trailer/ (http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/)
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You will pardon the pun but Jesus Christ on a fucking crutch!!!
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Yeah its pretty creepy.
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Hey, if the Middle East can grow it's own twisted brand of fanatics, why not a Christian "god's army" in the West? Let the new crusades begin...
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gawd, this is fucked up.... i just caught a trailer tonight on tv and went and watched the whole trailer on youtube.. its really messed up!
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did anyone see this film yet? If so what were your thoughts?
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I am not even going to touch this one...
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Unwatchable for me. Literally unwatchable. There are some things I cannot stomach, and this is one of them (the WWASPS documentary is as well).
This shit just needs to be stopped.
Welcome to the fucking Dark Ages II, people.
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Shut the fuck down! (http://http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003365311_jesuscamp08.html)
Next!
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I'm laughing my ass off. I haven't seen the wretched movie, so I didn't know the Right Gay Reverend Haggard was in it. Cranked up on meth and preachin' the Gospel, all the while thinking of that next big gay massage. Hallelujah.
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One crazy religious camp down.
Hundreds of secular, nature based programs, to go.
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That's one to post... in case it disappears...
Pastor will shut down controversial kids camp
By Religion News Service and The Associated Press
In the film "Jesus Camp," the Rev. Ted Haggard is shown preaching. Haggard was fired by a Colorado church amid allegations of gay sex and drug use.
The Rev. Becky Fischer, of The Fire Center
The summer camp featured in the documentary "Jesus Camp," which includes scenes with disgraced preacher Ted Haggard, will shut down for at least several years because of negative reaction sparked by the film, according to the camp's director.
"Right now we're just not a safe ministry," Becky Fischer, the fiery Pentecostal pastor featured in "Jesus Camp," said Tuesday.
The documentary, which hit select U.S. theaters during the summer, portrays Fischer, 55, as drill instructor to a group of young evangelical children steeling themselves for spiritual and political warfare.
Led by Fischer, the children pray in tongues, as is common in charismatic strains of Pentecostalism; tearfully beg God to end abortion; and bless President Bush at a weeklong camp in Devils Lake, N.D. How ironic.
Fischer has drawn fire from some corners for "brainwashing" the children. After vandals damaged the campground last month and critics besieged Fischer with negative e-mails, phone calls and letters, the pastor said she's shutting down the camp for at least several years.
"I don't think we'll be doing it for a while," she said.
Fischer lives in Bismarck, N.D., and is chief pastor at The Fire Center, a church devoted to children's ministry there. She has run the weeklong "Kids on Fire" summer camp, which is featured in the film, since 2002, with 75 to 100 children attending each year.
Kids on fire, burning in hell, at Devil's Lake.
The documentary also includes scenes of Haggard, the evangelical leader accused of gay sex and drug use.
In one scene, directors Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady visit Haggard's 14,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo. He tells the vast audience, "We don't have to debate about what we should think about homosexual activity. It's written in the Bible."
Then Haggard looks into the camera and says kiddingly: "I think I know what you did last night," drawing laughs from the crowd. "If you send me a thousand dollars, I won't tell your wife."
Later, another joke for the filmmakers: "If you use any of this, I'll sue you."
The married, 50-year-old father of five admitted in a letter read Sunday to his followers that he was "guilty of sexual immorality." He has yet to address specific claims by a male escort that Haggard paid him for sex over the past three years.
Haggard also leads the audience in praying for President Bush to select a Supreme Court nominee who supports their beliefs (it would end up being Samuel Alito) and later brags about the rapid expansion of evangelicalism.
"It's got enough growth to essentially sway every election," Haggard says with a smile. "If the evangelicals vote, they determine the election."
Haggard has acknowledged that he paid Mike Jones of Denver for a massage and for methamphetamine, but said he didn't have sex with Jones and didn't take the drug.
:rofl:
He resigned last week as president of the National Association of Evangelicals, which represents 30 million people, and was removed Saturday as leader of his own church.
For the last three years, Fischer has rented a campground in Devils Lake from the Assemblies of God, one of the largest national churches in the Pentecostal movement. But Fischer said she was asked not to return after vandals broke windows and caused $1,500 in damage at the campground in October.
Fischer said she has asked the distributors of "Jesus Camp" not to release the film in Bismarck because she fears for the safety of the 70 children who attend The Fire Center.
Parents applies pressure?
Grady, the co-director of "Jesus Camp," said the negative reaction to the film "has weighed a little heavy on our hearts."
"Not that we had anything to do with it, but [the campground] wasn't getting vandalized before the film and it was after it, and we need to acknowledge that," Grady said.
Copyright © 2006 The Seattle Times Company
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Fischer has drawn fire from some corners for "brainwashing" the children. After vandals damaged the campground last month and critics besieged Fischer with negative e-mails, phone calls and letters, the pastor said she's shutting down the camp for at least several years.
I wonder why this didn't happen after the TB documentary came out.
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Again you gotta ask, "Where the hell were these parents?"
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Again you gotta ask, "Where the hell were these parents?"
Church?
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For the last three years, Fischer has rented a campground in Devils Lake from the Assemblies of God, one of the largest national churches in the Pentecostal movement. But Fischer said she was asked not to return after vandals broke windows and caused $1,500 in damage at the campground in October.
Because this film has not come out here i am yet to see it. I am certainly curious. But vandalising the woman's property seems inexcusable. Her brand of christianity looks pretty nutty and i am intrigued as to why a parent would think it is good and healthy way for a child to worship. But to desecrate what these people think is holy is just barbaric. Nazi germany started with some synagogues being vandalised. The good people of Iraq dont seem any too happy with their mosques being bombed by the US either. This kind of thing should have no place in a democratic country with the right to practice freedom of religion. it also plays right into the hands of those who claim it is a holy war because Christians are under seige
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look.. i'm speaking in tongues LOL~!
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For the last three years, Fischer has rented a campground in Devils Lake from the Assemblies of God, one of the largest national churches in the Pentecostal movement. But Fischer said she was asked not to return after vandals broke windows and caused $1,500 in damage at the campground in October.
Because this film has not come out here i am yet to see it. I am certainly curious. But vandalising the woman's property seems inexcusable. Her brand of christianity looks pretty nutty and i am intrigued as to why a parent would think it is good and healthy way for a child to worship. But to desecrate what these people think is holy is just barbaric. Nazi germany started with some synagogues being vandalised. The good people of Iraq dont seem any too happy with their mosques being bombed by the US either. This kind of thing should have no place in a democratic country with the right to practice freedom of religion. it also plays right into the hands of those who claim it is a holy war because Christians are under seige
We should never become so tolerant that we tolerate intolerance.
This was not a religious camp, it was a terrorist training camp. It was no different than those Muslim schools in Pakistan you hear about on the news (If forget what they are called) except Christian based instead of Muslim based. We as a society should not allow children to be brainwashed in manifest falsehood and hate.
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BTW, On the Daily Show, John Stewart showed the clip of Haggard at Jesus Camp. It was hilarious.
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qreyhdoigericnoeinqo[ernvcunernqoernfnuqednucqoerngqeornonervqenrgonuergoqnervonqogqneg erfgeinvoqenrgoqerngoernvongoeqrngoerg
look.. i'm speaking in tongues LOL~!
:rofl:
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This was not a religious camp, it was a terrorist training camp. It was no different than those Muslim schools in Pakistan you hear about on the news (If forget what they are called) except Christian based instead of Muslim based. We as a society should not allow children to be brainwashed in manifest falsehood and hate.
How many christians have you seen walking into hotels and blowing themselves up lately? How about attacking US embassies, murdering and beheading civilians, seen many christians doing that lately?
Yeah there's a differnece between Muslim terrorists, and christian kids with overzelous parents, and if you can't see that I'm not sure what to say.
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We should never become so tolerant that we tolerate intolerance.
Did people at Jesus Camp committ a crime? Or do we just label any person "terrorist" now who doesn't conform to mainstream standards?
Jesus Camp is the victim here, of intolerance from mainstream society, I know that irks people to hear it, but it's what happened.
Are groups of christians who just viewed "brokeback mountain" going and vandalizing movie theaters?
I am not even christian but I can see the blatant hypocrisy and I think it's hilarious.
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Did people at Jesus Camp committ a crime? Or do we just label any person "terrorist" now who doesn't conform to mainstream standards?
Technically no, those parents did not break any laws, since minor children are effectively the "property" of their parents. So the parents are free to brainwash those kids any way they see fit. There is no law against dressing young children in military fatigues, training them to live outside established society, and teaching them that they are the Lord's chosen few and that all people who are not "with them" are "against them" and are thus the enemies of God and they must be punished.
No legal problems with any of that. Ethical problems? In the eye of the beholder.
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We should never become so tolerant that we tolerate intolerance.
Did people at Jesus Camp committ a crime? Or do we just label any person "terrorist" now who doesn't conform to mainstream standards?
Jesus Camp is the victim here, of intolerance from mainstream society, I know that irks people to hear it, but it's what happened.
Are groups of christians who just viewed "brokeback mountain" going and vandalizing movie theaters?
I am not even christian but I can see the blatant hypocrisy and I think it's hilarious.
I don't think it is funny or hilarious. I think this is a serious issue. I do think your point has some merit that bears discussing.
Yes it is a difficult issue, but lines must be drawn. We live in a country that promotes freedom of religion and religious practice. At the same time we would never allow human sacrifice, would we? That may seem like an extreme example, but many States do not allow animal sacrifice, either. That means Santori is not permitted a basic tenet of its rituals.
Recently, a court sentenced a man to prison for circumsizing his daughter. Mutilating a child is not permitted, even though his actions could have been construed as religious or cultural.
Likewise, we don't allow Muslim men to force women to wear burkas in our country.
Lines must be drawn. We can argue where to draw them, but the statement is not hypocritical. I will repeat it; we should not tolerate intolerance.
Now I will go into controversial territory. I read an article about athiesm in Wired Magazine (November 2006). Richard Dawkins makes the statement:
"How much do we regard children as being the property of their parents?" Dawkins asks. "It's one thing to say people should be free to to believe whatever they like, but should they be free to impose their beliefs on their children? Is there something to be said for society stepping in? What about bringing up children to believe manifest falsehoods?"
From my perspective, Dawkins makes a valid point. We generally do not allow our public schools to teach things to kids we know are simply not true (at least in theory, we don't). But we do allow parents and churches to teach things that have no rational, historic or scientific basis.
After reading here on Fornit's, it is reasonable to see that parents could (can and probably have) sent kids to religious programs to force the child to adopt Christianity. I think this is very, very wrong and parents have no right to do this.
Jesus Camp is dangerous because it promotes an intolerant view and these are impressionable children. They will grow up with a value system that teaches them to attempt to force everyone else to adhere to their rules; based on their values. They are, in other words, teaching kids to be intolerant. My opinion is that in a free society we must have our limits and not tolerate intolerance, or the teaching of intolerance.
As for Christian terrorists blowing things up. I guess you missed Timothy McVeigh. Read up on the case and you will see what really motivated this young man.
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Jesus Camp is dangerous because it promotes an intolerant view and these are impressionable children. They will grow up with a value system that teaches them to attempt to force everyone else to adhere to their rules; based on their values. They are, in other words, teaching kids to be intolerant. My opinion is that in a free society we must have our limits and not tolerate intolerance, or the teaching of intolerance.
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This is quite possibly right. But vandalising their property I am sure is not going to change the views of the people who run such a place. If anything it just serves to reinforce the logic of this idea that christians are under seige, and should be fighting a holy war of some kind. It seems more likley to produce a bunch of budding tim mcveighs. By all means legally ban forcing kids into mock siesures and making them hysterical and teary but why be lowered to some kind of mob mentality?
As to the militant athiest quoted, if it is ok to let kids believe in santa and the easter bunny, then why not Jesus? or some other messiah? For a lot of perfectly normal people relgion brings comfort and provides a moral compass. Or is just a good way of meeting other likeminded people. Why ban it?
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Well, weather it should be banned or not - it will be.
As for the indoctrinating of the children - of corse I disagree with this POV. I would argue that it is a parents responsibility to teach their children about God. I don't know that I would go so far as this "Jesus Camp" but they should be given instruction and knowledge appropriate for their age.
As for this making an army of Tim McVeigh's (not that I'm aware of any Christian motivation his part) I don't think so. Most of them go on to live lives that suit them; Sometimes in service to God, trying always to live a Christian life; but quit often it has little or nothing to do with the Christian instruction they received as children. Some of the prodigals will in time return to the faith, but many others do not. As I have often tried to point out, God will not force Himself upon anyone.
I haven't seen this Jesus camp film; so I don't know what I would think about it. I will say there is much going on in the AofG churches that worry and distress me - and some things I am very much opposed to. I fear they are being over run with a strong delusion. They stray to far from the Word of God, in their practices and preaching.
That being said, I would guess that what is meant by warriors for Christ has more to do with the Sword of the Sprit (the Living Word of God) than with bombs and guns and so on. If children can be taught from an early age, that there is power and truth found in God's Word, worth living their lives in trust and obedience to, there would be a lot less grief and pain and strife in their lives. So says this Christian - whose advice and instruction has always been ignored. ;)
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would argue that it is a parents responsibility to teach their children about God.
Even if the lesson is that gods do not exist?
Just as people wish to protect their children from harmful media (violence and sex), there are those of us who feel that the religious believer's right to spread the word, ends where our children's eyes and ears begin. We don't want our children's impressionable minds to be twisted by myth and superstition.
In reality, this is impossible, of course. It is only when you are a non-believer that you see how our culture, which is a Christian culture, forces* it upon you at every turn. The only defence is to educate our children. Ultimately, they will decide for themselves.
I don't see how Dawkins is a 'militant.' Certainly no more so than those right wing fundies that voted to alter State Constitutions to ban gay marriage or boycott stores that say Happy Holidays to be inclusive instead of the Christian Merry Christmas. They appear to wish to impose their religious values on the larger society. Dawkins states an adult can believe anything they want, just don't teach junk science to the kids.
But we digress. The point still remains that Jesus Camp goes beyond normal religious freedom by teaching kids to be intolerant. They may not state 'guns and bombs' but they do state 'give your lives for Jesus' and 'be willing to die for Jesus'. Military fatigues are the preferred dress. I suggest you view the video clips. I think you would be as disturbed as the rest of us. Remember the flap in the press when it was reported that Saudi Arabian schoolbooks literally taught kids to 'hate the infidel?' Same thing.
I also want to revisit the whole thing that Christians don't go around hurting people like terrorists. Actually they do. I have been assaulted, beaten, had my property damaged or stolen, been verbally abused, and excluded from activities in the community and at school and even people's homes once they discovered I was a 'non-believer.' Mind, I never advertised my atheism. In fact, as a kid, if you straight out asked me, most of the time I would lie and say, "Of course I believe in God." just to avoid the inevitable fallout. These things happened to me as a child.
I understand that this behavior is not in keeping with mainstream Christian teaching; just as I understand that terrorism is not in keeping with mainstream Muslim thinking.
Timothy McVeigh was linked to a right-wing, racist group, that felt God was on their side.
* I don't mean literally. I mean through saturation of the culture.
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Ozgirl,
I never intended to advocate that vandalism, etc was okay.
I sincerely support the idea that legal, civilized measures should be employed to combat this kind of hate group. My preferred method is, education and publicity. Jesus Camp has been on more than a few news and talk shows in this country and has drawn wide-spread criticism from many sources, both liberal and conservative.
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Crazy parents who put there kids through weird shit come in all flavors and varieties.
Vegans/Vegetarianism
Anti-Vaccinationers
Christian Scientists
Amish
Polymorous
Gays
AA/NA fundies
Pagans
Role Players
Fundie Islamic
Native Americans
Swingers
Snake Handlers
etcetera
etcetera
etcetera
............
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Role Players
:lol:
I'd love to see the details of that one.
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As to the militant athiest quoted, if it is ok to let kids believe in santa and the easter bunny, then why not Jesus? or some other messiah? For a lot of perfectly normal people relgion brings comfort and provides a moral compass. Or is just a good way of meeting other likeminded people. Why ban it?
I won't defend Richard Dawkins. He is a world reknown scientist that has written many books. He can defend himself quite nicely.
I posted the quote because we are in a forum for the Troubled Teen Industry speaking about Jesus Camp. I felt Dawkins' questions were worth considering.
I sort of took the fact that a Jesus Camp thread exists as an implicit statement that Jesus Camp and programs are fundamentally related in some way. The lines are blurred. Both have been referred to as brainwashing children. So, should society step in to prevent brainwashing? Who gets to make the call? An athiest? Buzzkill? You? Me?
Could any religious indoctrination of children be considered brainwashing? I might think so, but Buzkill and you would object. So what lines get drawn? Who draws them? How are they enforced?
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/// I suggest you view the video clips. I think you would be as disturbed as the rest of us. ///
I'm not able to view it; but quit possibly you are right. If they are dressing little kids in military fatigues I would be alarmed, for sure. This would be something new to me.
But, not having seen it - I think maybe I would understand the message very differently from you.
See - you feel you are bombarded by an unwelcome saturation of Christian culture. You are concerned your children will be negatively effected and you resent this. You want to train them up in the way they should grow - away from what you believe is superstition and myth. You feel you can only escape this by educating them in your own home - and I suppose avoiding the malls at Christmas time ;)
Christian parents feel exactly the same way about the god less, hedonistic culture, that floods society with a constant barrage of hate and violence and vulgarity; and like you, the Christian parent commonly believes the only way to avoid it is to educate at home. Its a wonder anyone is still left in public schools. . .
Just as you arm your offspring with the tools you feel they need to deflect this Christian influence; Christian parents feel the need to arm their offspring with a firm foundation in Christian thinking and belief - so as not to be overwhelmed by the anti-Christian thought so flooding our culture.
I suspect this is largely what Jesus camp is about - but - again - I have not seen it, and I don't actually know - and I am often alarmed at what takes place in "Christian" groups. For example, I am currently in a debate with some Christian friends about this so called "Toronto Blessing". I have serious reservations about it. I find it deeply disturbing and there are aspects of it I am quite certain have nothing to do with God. So - it is possible I would be alarmed with this Jesus camp.
That being said, I can also understand how and why Christian parents might look for ways to strengthen the faith of their children.
I am wondering Atomic Ant - how freaked out would you be if your son or daughter came home an announced they had been Born Again? ;) How tolerant would you be? What if they were dating some straight laced primitive Baptist? I'm sorry - but its funny to think about. Did you read Opus this morning? The Volvo? (I love Opus, BTW)
But more seriously - I wonder, are you able to arm your offspring against the Christanity all around them, with out being hostile to Christians? Or, at least seeming so? I assume you don't intend to come across as hostile/hatefull towards anyone. . .
Do you not think Christian parents might also be struggling to express oposition to what they view as evil and destructive in the popular culture, with out sounding hatefull?
When it comes to tolerance - sometimes the most tolerant can be the most dangerously intolerant.
The Angry Man
The other day I chanced to meet
An angry man upon the street -
A man of wrath, a man of war,
A man who truculently bore
Over his shoulder, like a lance,
A banner labeled ?Tolerance.?
And when I asked him why he strode
Thus scowling down the human road,
Scowling, he answered, ?I am he
who champions total Liberty -
Intolerance being, Ma?am, a state
No tolerant man, can tolerate.
When I meet rogues,? he cried,
?Who choose, to cherish oppositional views,
Lady, like this, and in this manner,
I lay about me with my banner -
Till they cry Mercy, ma?am.?
His blows Rained proudly on prospective foes.
Fearful, I turned and left him there,
Still muttering, as he thrashed the air,
?Let the Intolerant beware!?
Phyllis Mc Ginely
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I guess maybe it is worth considering weather Jesus Camp is in fact brain washing - as we understand it to be practiced in the troubled teen industry. Not having seen the film - or even the trailer - I can't say.
How do you think it actually compares?
As to parental instruction - this is not brainwashing. Not in most families anyway.
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I think the main diference is the Jesus camp type religious camps don't invovle the "tear down" process of "brainwashing" like programs do. A common theme of programs is for the youth to sit around in a circle and criticize each other, or have a facilitator in a large group tear them down in front of everyone psychologically, and then try to rebuild them with better "tools" to take on the issues they were dealing wtih... or so goes the theory. The type of brainwashing the kids at jesus camp seem to get is similar in the same group induced euphoria sessions, but in their case it is based on the comforting and radical thought that there is an all powerful force watching over them, inhabiting them and it can be a powerful feeling. I think it might be unfortunate when the kids grow up and find out the pastor was a hypocrite, and maybe they will not be christians but I don't know if they feel they, their inner self, was attacked by their so called loved ones in order to destroy them, and try to invent a new person.
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I sort of took the fact that a Jesus Camp thread exists as an implicit statement that Jesus Camp and programs are fundamentally related in some way. The lines are blurred. Both have been referred to as brainwashing children. ?
Could any religious indoctrination of children be considered brainwashing?
quote]
Oh how i love these debates! I would say no. Afterall I survived 12 long yrs of catholic school and now dont believe in anything much. I think it is a matter of moderation. If kids are actually taught to approach faith and theology in an intellectual manner and study real philosophers and theologans as well as perfoming the wacky rituals of whichever faith they belong to, then it can be quite educational. if they are just made to memorise some random rules & quotes from a bible or any other "holy book", i am still not sure if it is brainwashing as much as just getting a shitty dumbded down education.
However I would say that with Jesus camp you are right, the lines are pretty blurry as those kids were at times in considerable distress and were being whipped into a frenzy. The ideas they seemed to be teaching those kids also did seem pretty crazy and intolerant if the trailer was anything to go by. it is probably never a good idea to get kids willing to lay down their lives for any cuase!
But throwing a brick through the window of their private property does not convince anyone of the insanity of what they are doing. If anything it just reinforces the ridiculous persecution complex that fundamentalists everywhere have. There are better ways of fighting zealotry than with violence and threats. You cant say that people should have freedom of religion as long as their faith is not a crappy one. They either do or they dont.
On a side line note, the one and only thing that makes me slightly more sympathetic to the headslapping religious zealots of Jesus Camp than programmes and wilderness death camps, it at least they seem to like the kids they are in charge of!
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Christian parents feel exactly the same way about the god less, hedonistic culture, that floods society with a constant barrage of hate and violence and vulgarity; and like you, the Christian parent commonly believes the only way to avoid it is to educate at home. Its a wonder anyone is still left in public schools. . .
But what happens to these kids when they discover or at least hear rumours of the contemporary earthly world? When sex rears its ugly head? or something makes them question what they have been brought up with? What happens when someone tells them about drugs or alcohol or god forbid halloween? They will be unarmed with any kind of common sense because they have been raised with a just say no-to everything- mentality. The real world will either terrify them or be so intoxicating that they will do everything that their overzealous familieswant to protect them from. That seems crazy. I wouldnt say that kids raised in such an insular way have been abused. But it sure seems like a pretty poorly thought out parenting strategy.
Also why would anyone want to have have a belief system so weak and shaky that exposing kids to any ideas or temptations outside of this is such a threat?
Ant i am a bit of a dick as i skimmed over one of your earlier posts. Ignore my reiteration on the vandalism point!
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last post was mine -could not log in
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The most traumatizing event for a child in jesus camp might very well be for the kids who start to realize they are gay. Obviously this wouldn't have the same kind of self-hatred effect on someone who isn't gay. But for kids who grow up in very reilgious homes and end up being gay, it can be really tough. A lot committ suicide.
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I think what was most upsetting about this Jesue Camp video was the young ages of these children.
Seeing them crying, and begging for forgivesness so earnestly just made was wonder: now what sort of dreadful "sins" have these young kids comitted that requires such intense feelings?
Then this woman, whipping these kids into such a frizzy over Harry Potter. Harry Potter is a make-believe, fantasy story that kids read in a BOOK, and go to see in a MOVIE--not some "devil worhip event" that is going to take over the world...or destroy these little kids' life.
These kids were weeping, as if someone dear to them had died.
There must be a better way to teach religion to children.
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http://caica.org/JESUS%20CAMP%20MAIN.htm (http://caica.org/JESUS%20CAMP%20MAIN.htm)
video and articles
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There must be a better way to teach religion to children.
This isn't about teaching religion to children -- it's about brainwashing future soldiers for the next crusade. The Christian Army needs it's jihadists too, dontcha know...
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At the referenced link above, watch East Side Phil's Video Blog 10: Jesus Camp is Child Abuse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=707NU1zf ... ed&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=707NU1zfv4Q&mode=related&search=)
I personally feel its right on order with programs, the manipulation of children's thoughts and feelings with fear and shame.
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Karen, are you jacking the thread to be an apologetic when thats really beside the point of JESUS CAMP IS BRAINWASHING?
Tch...
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I think what was most upsetting about this Jesue Camp video was the young ages of these children.
Seeing them crying, and begging for forgivesness so earnestly just made was wonder: now what sort of dreadful "sins" have these young kids comitted that requires such intense feelings?
Then this woman, whipping these kids into such a frizzy over Harry Potter. Harry Potter is a make-believe, fantasy story that kids read in a BOOK, and go to see in a MOVIE--not some "devil worhip event" that is going to take over the world...or destroy these little kids' life.
These kids were weeping, as if someone dear to them had died.
There must be a better way to teach religion to children.
That besmirks me of how kids act in seminars if they "internalize" it :-?
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Karen, are you jacking the thread to be an apologetic when thats really beside the point of JESUS CAMP IS BRAINWASHING?
Tch...
No - I am not.
Lets talk about it some. How is it brain washing in the same sense that we understand the Programs are brain washing? How are they similar or dis-similar?I am at a disadvantage not having seen the film, but judging from what I read here, I would oppose the kind of frantic hyper-emotionalism being described. But this still doesn't make it brain washing. Does it cross the line into brain washing? If so - how?
I'm concerned that this woman is talking about creating a Christian version of the Jihadist. That is most alarming. But I wonder if it wasn't just a very poor choice of words, that isn't representing what she actually means? There is some concern that Christian children are not being given the tools they need - the firm foundation required - to understand their faith and put it into practice in their lives. I wonder if she means she wants to help Christian children believe and live their faith as ardently as so many Muslems do - minus the strapping on of bombs to blow up the infidel.
I question the teaching about being willing to die for Christ, meaning what you seem to think it means. Keeping in mind any Christian should be wiling to do so - and indeed many have; and still are in much of the world - but as Martyrs - not terrorist. Its a very different kind of thing. But - while this is what I would Guess she means - I do not know - and maybe she is some kind of loon. I would be concerned about the age of her "campers". I see no need to tell young children they must be willing to die for anything. This is like feeding tuff meat to babes who need warm milk.
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"I'm concerned that this woman is talking about creating a Christian version of the Jihadist. That is most alarming. But I wonder if it wasn't just a very poor choice of words, that isn't representing what she actually means?"
She is pretty open about being a christian jihadist. She admires almost everything about them except the fact that they are on the wrong side! in one of the clips she is pretty clear about this. She also does seem to spend a lot of time making kids no older than about 10 cry and going on "hell aint no disneyland" style rants to terrify these kids. There is also a clip of her lecturing about harry potter and claiming that the old testament would have him executed. Some of the kids who have obviously read one of his books look they feel pretty guilty!
I am just wondering are such places common? Did anyone attend such summer camps as a kid?
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I am just wondering are such places common? Did anyone attend such summer camps as a kid?
Unfortunately they are very common. And i did attend several as a kid. Among other games there was "smear the queer". "Dying for Christ" is a fairly common theme (ie. martyrdom) though it is not meant to be interpreted as "killing for christ". Big difference. That's the job of the US Army. If the lady who was at this camp implied that killing for christ is good she is waaaaay out of the "mainstream", even for the far right.
These places are brainwash camps yes, but what organized religion does not do this to some extent. What are you going to do? Ban religion? The kids genuinely like it there at these camps and they are loved and treated well. As much as i have bitterness against some Christians, i grew up in such an enviornment and can tell you that much of what was shown in the trailer for the movie was taken out of context of it's meaning.
People are (usually) still free to disagree at these places and voice thier opinion. There are a lot of kids who are forced to be there yes, but if they aren't "believers" going in they are unlikely to be "believers" going out. Lots of these kids just pretend to fit in. Usually they're in the back of the room chuckling as the more enthusiastic Christians spaz out on the floor.
Personally I think we should just drop this thread. Kids aren't being abused at these camps unless you count religious indoctrination as abuse. Programs differ from religion in that they try to establish the program itself as the object of worship. These camps are temporary. It's not like the kids are forced to live there long term.
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Well I've attended many different kinds of Churches & Church groups & Sunday Schools & Retreats & I certainly never experienced anything remotely like what this is described as being - nor ever heard of anything like it. Nor have I ever heard of game like "smear the queer"! Or dying for Christ either. So - I would dispute any such thing as being common in Christian churches.
What kind of church did you attend where this was common??!!
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Karen, are you jacking the thread to be an apologetic when thats really beside the point of JESUS CAMP IS BRAINWASHING?
Tch...
No - I am not.
Lets talk about it some. How is it brain washing in the same sense that we understand the Programs are brain washing? How are they similar or dis-similar?I am at a disadvantage not having seen the film, but judging from what I read here, I would oppose the kind of frantic hyper-emotionalism being described. But this still doesn't make it brain washing. Does it cross the line into brain washing? If so - how?
I'm concerned that this woman is talking about creating a Christian version of the Jihadist. That is most alarming. But I wonder if it wasn't just a very poor choice of words, that isn't representing what she actually means? There is some concern that Christian children are not being given the tools they need - the firm foundation required - to understand their faith and put it into practice in their lives. I wonder if she means she wants to help Christian children believe and live their faith as ardently as so many Muslems do - minus the strapping on of bombs to blow up the infidel.
I question the teaching about being willing to die for Christ, meaning what you seem to think it means. Keeping in mind any Christian should be wiling to do so - and indeed many have; and still are in much of the world - but as Martyrs - not terrorist. Its a very different kind of thing. But - while this is what I would Guess she means - I do not know - and maybe she is some kind of loon. I would be concerned about the age of her "campers". I see no need to tell young children they must be willing to die for anything. This is like feeding tuff meat to babes who need warm milk.
"Hyperemotionalism" as you so eloquently put it IS brainwashing, in a nutshell!
It crosses the line into brainwashing by emotionally manipulating them based on very basal, primal and intense emotions to believe in what the person leading it wants them to believe... it doesnt matter if its 1+1=3, "there is no right or wrong only what works (plus the program)" or the dogma of any religion!
Get it?
There is a difference between believing in a religion (and its arguable that its just so much fairy tale baloney, but that is COMPLETELY BESIDE THE POINT HERE) and fucking with their emotions until they totally flip the fuck out about it and have terrors about being a sinner, sobbing for forgiveness, blah blah blah. To a believer its just an "affirmation of faith" becuase it meshes with what you believe and want to see, but psychologically speaking its all so much brain chemistry and psychological regression.
So yes, hyperemotionalism IS brainwashing, more or less by definition.
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I am just wondering are such places common? Did anyone attend such summer camps as a kid?
Unfortunately they are very common. And i did attend several as a kid. Among other games there was "smear the queer". "Dying for Christ" is a fairly common theme (ie. martyrdom) though it is not meant to be interpreted as "killing for christ". Big difference. That's the job of the US Army. If the lady who was at this camp implied that killing for christ is good she is waaaaay out of the "mainstream", even for the far right.
These places are brainwash camps yes, but what organized religion does not do this to some extent. What are you going to do? Ban religion? The kids genuinely like it there at these camps and they are loved and treated well. As much as i have bitterness against some Christians, i grew up in such an enviornment and can tell you that much of what was shown in the trailer for the movie was taken out of context of it's meaning.
People are (usually) still free to disagree at these places and voice thier opinion. There are a lot of kids who are forced to be there yes, but if they aren't "believers" going in they are unlikely to be "believers" going out. Lots of these kids just pretend to fit in. Usually they're in the back of the room chuckling as the more enthusiastic Christians spaz out on the floor.
Personally I think we should just drop this thread. Kids aren't being abused at these camps unless you count religious indoctrination as abuse. Programs differ from religion in that they try to establish the program itself as the object of worship. These camps are temporary. It's not like the kids are forced to live there long term.
The passive stuff you get in NORMAL (by my standards at least...) churches/sunday school/parenting is a FAR cry from the intentional, "hyperemotional", fits-an-LGAT-to-a-T shit Jesus Camp was employing. Emotional manipulation, regression... hello? Thats what brainwashing IS!
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I'm not so sure hyper emotionalism is, in an of itself, brain washing. I don't know that there are long lasting effects - either good or bad - as a result of attending such a service.
To call it brain washing I would think you'd need other accompanying factors - such as sleep depravation ; hunger; as well as other stressors.
I would argue a change must take place in the persons thinking, beliefs, and behavior, that is in opposition to what they formally believed, to call it brain washing.
Hyper emotionalism is part of it - but by itself - in other wise well feed and rested persons, who are generally in agreement with the message, can not accurately be called brain washing - IMO.
Now - I do realize when speaking of children, the picture may be changed dramatically; but I would still question the long term effect; or lack there of; and so weather it crosses the line into "brain washing".
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Well I've attended many different kinds of Churches & Church groups & Sunday Schools & Retreats & I certainly never experienced anything remotely like what this is described as being - nor ever heard of anything like it. Nor have I ever heard of game like "smear the queer"! Or dying for Christ either. So - I would dispute any such thing as being common in Christian churches.
What kind of church did you attend where this was common??!!
Well if you really need to have specifics: The Church of the Apostles in Fairfax, Va; Which had "Halleluja Parties" so kids wouldn't be polluted by halloween. My family also attended a host of other churches such as the Evangelical Free Church in Annandale (non demoninational, which was also the one in which "smear the queer" was played in youth group). In general. I'd say this type of thing is quite common among the "bible thumping" crowd.
Yes it is hyperemotional and it borders on brainwashing but it's not like propheets / Friendship Workshop where it's a marathon without food or sleep and traumatic experiences are brought up so you feel like shit and they can later console you. It's a lot different. The girl in the trailer was most likely crying tears of joy believe it or not. These are happy places and although one could argue the happiness is a bit "over the top" with people feeling the "love of god", i don't think it crosses the line of brainwashing any more than the effect of any other group phenomenon including political polarization.
I am not a Christian. Personally, i can't stand most of em, but i do think they are often unfarily picked on by those who see a snippet of somebody beeing "slain in the spirit" and take it out of context. Such experiences are rare (unless it's a group event specifically for that purpose) and most of them are probably pretending (i know i did). The kid flopping around like a fish was probably pretending. From what i have been told, it is a feeling of peace which "overcomes you". A lot of this stuff just has to be demystified and explained which was not apparantly the goal of the film, which was to present a carefully edited "freak show". I however do think, however, bringing a political figure (bush) into a religious institution to have kids look up to him is despicable.
So fucking what if people have wacky beliefs and teach it to their kids. I don't aggree with it, i think kids should have the choice; however it is a parent's right raise a kid as he/she wants as long as it does not cross the line into abuse. This is freedom of religion at it's best or worst depending on how you look at it.
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I must also epphasize the element of choice in this. Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives". Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to. Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.
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///My family also attended a host of other churches such as the Evangelical Free Church in Annandale (non demoninational, which was also the one in which "smear the queer" was played in youth group). In general. I'd say this type of thing is quite common among the "bible thumping" crowd. ///
Well again - I have never heard of anything like this - not even close - and I have associated with many a Bible Thumper and Bible Belt church. Frankly - I am shocked anything like this would ever go on in a Christian youth group. It sounds more like something that might take place at a Klan rally.
Speaking of the Klan, I once was friends with a gal who had grown up in the KKK - and she was raising her children with the same rabid hate she was raised with. Now that was upsetting - but it was her right as a parent to do so. I'll never forget her oldest telling me, with a sweet little girl's smile, how she hated a long list of peoples and cultures.
Still, there is every possibility her daughters could grow up to see the lies, and to reject totally all they were taught from the cradle. Same for any American kid being brought up with any ideology.
The thing is - in this country - most all people are exposed to a mix of ideas and beliefs and practices - and being individuals with minds of their own, can and do go there own way despite (or to spite) the old folks.
On the other hand - it is true family values and traditions and beliefs do tend to be persistent and hard to over come, even when one is trying.
My Klan friend had a terrible time coming to understand not all Jews were evil; and not all blacks were stupid; and not all Southern Whites were anything remotely like a superior race. Getting out into the working world and seeing evidence that all she had been taught was wrong, was a shock for her - but she lived threw it. You should have seen her face as she admitted to me, she had asked her priest, and he had confirmed that Jesus was Jewish!
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I'm not so sure hyper emotionalism is, in an of itself, brain washing. I don't know that there are long lasting effects - either good or bad - as a result of attending such a service.
To call it brain washing I would think you'd need other accompanying factors - such as sleep depravation ; hunger; as well as other stressors.
I would argue a change must take place in the persons thinking, beliefs, and behavior, that is in opposition to what they formally believed, to call it brain washing.
Hyper emotionalism is part of it - but by itself - in other wise well feed and rested persons, who are generally in agreement with the message, can not accurately be called brain washing - IMO.
Now - I do realize when speaking of children, the picture may be changed dramatically; but I would still question the long term effect; or lack there of; and so weather it crosses the line into "brain washing".
Do you even know what brainwashing is? In all seriousness, not an insult, do you actually know what it is, how its done, and what it entails?
Also, if you can twist religion into it, you dont NEED to starve them, the "fear of god" is enough to motivate you and to emotionally jolt you into belief without it.
Brainwashing boils down to fucking with someones emotions and feelings and breaking them down (thus psychological regression or hyperemotionalism, as you put it...) until they are full of what you want them to be full of, and their logical, rational, critical self is gone. There is no set criteria of "if its not this this and this its not brainwashing blah blah blah" so much as does whatever is being done manipulate them and break them down enough they are being unduly influenced or not.
Those children were rather clearly under extreme emotional stress (whether or not they were fed or slept is irrelevant...) and not only are you fucking with a childs mind but using religion to pry their head open so yes, I would say it is brainwashing.
Trying to define something else and say it is that might be useful for someone defending it but franky, what the hell is the difference between "hyperemotionalism" and brainwashing? Honestly, what good is being done to call it "hyperemotional" but not brainwashing?
Is that okay? is Hyperemotional nonsense with kids somehow justified?
NO!
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I must also epphasize the element of choice in this. Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives". Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to. Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.
The emotional attack of "you'll go to hell if you do not" is still present...
IMHO the biggest reason people turn to religion is the overriding terror of annihilation that believers have. Well, that and hell for the mental midgets, but whatever.
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IMHO the biggest reason people turn to religion is the overriding terror of annihilation that believers have. Well, that and hell for the mental midgets, but whatever.
I think for just as many people it's defining some sort of meaning, in an otherwise seeming meaningless existence. Why I am here? What's the point in waking up tomorrow? T
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I must also epphasize the element of choice in this. Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives". Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to. Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.
The emotional attack of "you'll go to hell if you do not" is still present...
IMHO the biggest reason people turn to religion is the overriding terror of annihilation that believers have. Well, that and hell for the mental midgets, but whatever.
Well duh. When i was four this was tried on me and it worked. By the time i was 10 i had realized it was bullshit. Not everybody buys that "hell" crap. I didn't for a simple reason, the logic does not add up:
A: Bible Says God is Just (gravity of crime = gravity of punishment)
B: Hell is eternal and thus infinite punishment.
There is no infinite crime (common friggin sense). so if A is true, B cannot be. (unless the inverse is true, god is not just, and thus we should kill him) But of course i'm questioning "god's wisdom" if i argue this to Christians.
There are a lot of people who will sit through these things and think what's being said is horse shit. Sure the existance of hell is a scary thing for kids, but not all of them believe what they are told. I just thought they were a bit wacky. For this reason, I thought whatever brainwashing my school, Benchmark Young Adult School, could throw at me, would magically bounce off. Wrong. Religion maybe be 10% proof kool-aid but Lifespring / Propheets / Raps, and the rest of the programs tools, will break even the most hardened.
Sleep deprivation, hunger, guided imagery, NLP, trances to remember / re-experience traumatic events, disclosure circles, pile-ups, Raps, dirt lists... These things are the tools of true brainwashing.
Even if religion was brainwashing, there are no practical ways to outlaw it and doing so, i feel, would be crossing the line. People have a right to their beliefs, and i don't think it's right to sit back and say "this is how they are and it's wrong". Everybody's religion / culture / whatever always has odd aspects when looked at from an outsider's POV. It is rather pointless to discuss whether or not something is "brainwashing" when stopping/banning it would be an infinately worse violation of ethics.
I have experienced both these "jesus camps" and a CEDU clone program and i tell you there is no comparison possable. Programs attempt to permanantly alter your thinking, your thought process, your loyalties, and your very image of yourself, not merely your beliefs.
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There has been a lot of discussion of this concept of choice. i dont think it is any real kind of choice for these kids as they are too little.
I am sure that most do want to attend the camp and I dont think i would go as far as to call it abuse, even if it is insane and bizarre. But how can anyone reasonably expect a small child to stand up to this woman and disagree or even question her authority? Small children are motivated by a desire to please those that they look up to. She is pretty formidable and scary. I could see how it would be easy for even a cynical 12 year old who is only there to play soccer to get caught up in the hysterical frenzy.
The thing about it is that while she agrees with the Islamic Jhadists methods she thinks that their god is the wrong guy. Given that both Muslm extemists and jackboot christians are both equally down on booze "the gays" any sins of the flesh and all the other fun stuff which constitues day to day life for most people perhaps they should just delcare a truce with each other and start a war on liberal athests!
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I must also epphasize the element of choice in this. Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives". Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to. Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.
The emotional attack of "you'll go to hell if you do not" is still present...
IMHO the biggest reason people turn to religion is the overriding terror of annihilation that believers have. Well, that and hell for the mental midgets, but whatever.
Not to hi-jack the thread - but I would like to respond. This is such a common miss-understanding of the Christian faith that a comment or two seems justified.
Yes, I know some preachers are "Hell Fire" preachers; and they seek to hold their congregation in fear of damnation. But I feel this is an error on their part - and believing this is the basis of the average Christian's belief is just plain wrong.
I think most believing Christians believe b/c they have seen evidence of the reality of God. They have come to recognize they have a Creator. Consequently, they begin to gather some sense of His awesome majesty, power and Holiness. Altho it is only the slightest glimpse of the reality of God, (as if through a glass darkly) it can be overwhelming - sometimes leaving them in tears, springing from a deep sense of Joy and Appreciation.
They believe, and try to serve, not from a fear of damnation - b./c they know they are saved - but out of Love for their Creator; and in thanks for the Gift of Grace - and in acknowledgment that the only safe place to be is in the center of His will.
Now - I know ya'll think this is majorly "midget-minded" ; and many of you no doubt believe such thoughts delusion of the highest order. Nevertheless - this is what its about (in a nut-shell) for the Christian.
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I have experienced both these "jesus camps" and a CEDU clone program and i tell you there is no comparison possable. Programs attempt to permanantly alter your thinking, your thought process, your loyalties, and your very image of yourself, not merely your beliefs.
Uh, and Jesus Camp (the one we are talking about) did not try to change thought processes, loyalties, and self image?
Brainwashing is and remains fucking with someones emotions to make them regress (aka become intensely emotional and not RATIONAL) and the specific methods used do not make it brainwashing or not, its a matter of fucking with emotions and breaking them down.
The VIDEO EVIDENCE of such effects are incontrovertible. No, they dont keep them for years, and no, they are not starved, or cut off from parents, so its not as effective, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a fucking DUCK.
Also, most parents putting a kid in such a place have at least some likelyhood of reinforcing what the "jesus camp"-ers tried to 'instill' into the kids there.
Anyway, there is no justification for what Jesus Camp is doing, and if its not brainwashing, just LIKE it, wtf is it?
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Uh, and Jesus Camp (the one we are talking about) did not try to change thought processes, loyalties, and self image?
Also, most parents putting a kid in such a place have at least some likelyhood of reinforcing what the "jesus camp"-ers tried to 'instill' into the kids there.[/quote]
I think that these kids already were "thinking" if you can call it that like this before they were sent to pastor Becky! It is not as if their parents would be religiously moderate! Afterall the parents were in attendence at the service.
But if these crazy homolies only go for a short amount of time and kids overall feel loved and are well cared while they are at the camp for i dont see how it can be termed abuse as much as religious zealotry. If this is a crime then about 20 million Americans should be in jail!
I would say though that it is highly manipulative of the wider community as well as the kids. When they had the cute little girl handing out religious cards in the Bowling alley, it is not like anyone could really say no to the kid without looking like cruella deville!
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I have experienced both these "jesus camps" and a CEDU clone program and i tell you there is no comparison possable. Programs attempt to permanantly alter your thinking, your thought process, your loyalties, and your very image of yourself, not merely your beliefs.
Uh, and Jesus Camp (the one we are talking about) did not try to change thought processes, loyalties, and self image?
Hahaha?
I'm reading these forums as an RTC survivor and quite frankly that's insulting.
I would really like you to spend a few months at an RTC and after the physical, emotional, and often sexual abuse tell me that this bible camp is within ten billion miles of the area brainwashing RTCs and TBCs are in. I fucking dare you. Do you even have any idea of what you're talking about? AT ALL?
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I have experienced both these "jesus camps" and a CEDU clone program and i tell you there is no comparison possable. Programs attempt to permanantly alter your thinking, your thought process, your loyalties, and your very image of yourself, not merely your beliefs.
Uh, and Jesus Camp (the one we are talking about) did not try to change thought processes, loyalties, and self image?
Hahaha?
I'm reading these forums as an RTC survivor and quite frankly that's insulting.
I would really like you to spend a few months at an RTC and after the physical, emotional, and often sexual abuse tell me that this bible camp is within ten billion miles of the area brainwashing RTCs and TBCs are in. I fucking dare you. Do you even have any idea of what you're talking about? AT ALL?
No he doesn't. I don't see how "Jesus Camp" relates to the troubled teen industry either. Sometimes I would like to just love to be able to trap people inside my head so I could force them to live through the memories of things I cant remember.
Bitterness against Christians is as petty as bitterness against any other religion. There are real problems in the US and it doesn't involve restricting people's practice of religion.
IANAC btw. But prejudice in all it's forms tends to annoy me.
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I would say though that it is highly manipulative of the wider community as well as the kids. When they had the cute little girl handing out religious cards in the Bowling alley, it is not like anyone could really say no to the kid without looking like cruella deville!
It's as manipulative as any marketing tactic. But honesly how manipulative is it? In order for something to be "manipulation" in my mind it would have to be effective. Most people say "oh gee thanks sweetie" and toss the flier in the nearest trash bin. Ever handed out fliers? If you ever do, my advice is: Don't do it near a trash can. It's really depressing.
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But that is the thing. Practicing any religious faith is a private thing. The idea of selling it and using kids as pawns is pretty distasteful!
if an adult was handing out fliers people would feel free to say not for me thank you or possibly something rude. But using a sincere little girl straddles the moral line. Also that kid walked away thinking she has saved a soul when really the ugly side of her families faith had been caught on camera. This seems pretty manipulative to me!
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But that is the thing. Practicing any religious faith is a private thing. The idea of selling it and using kids as pawns is pretty distasteful!
Oh i don't disagree. But that is marketing after all. Without some means of propogation, religions would simply die out. Christians believe it is their duty to "spread the word / good news / etc". They are teaching the kid how to "witness" probably becuase she wanted to or asked how to. I did. My friends did. We tought each other how to do it. We would practice "witnessing" to stuffed animals. In some christian circles, "witnessing" is a popular thing to do". It's almost a competitive act.
if an adult was handing out fliers people would feel free to say not for me thank you or possibly something rude.
More than likely something rude in my case, but it depends on what is said. If somebody starts off with "you're going to hell for your sins you [insert specific sin here]er" It usually is responded to with gratuitous use of the "F" word. Sometimes I quote scripture, which really fucks with thier mind. Other times I pretend to be demon possessed. That makes em go wild. Yes you're right. It is a lot more fun with the grown up preachers.
But let the little girl feel like she's doing something important, like she's learning something. It's only so long we have as a child, oblivious to the fucked up world around us. She'll think back on the memories and smile about it. How much harm is it actually doing anybody?
But using a sincere little girl straddles the moral line. Also that kid walked away thinking she has saved a soul
And why not. Kids believe in lies like Santa Claus. It makes them feel good. What is the harm in this. I don't really know personally since in my family, Christmas, was entirely religious in nature. I was told Santa Claus was a lie. I didn't mind. I didn't have any faith in him to lose. I was told, however, never to tell any other children this, since it would upset them.
You may see it as "manipulative" and to the definition of the word you're probably right; however there is no intent to do so. Seriously. Who was harmed by those hand-outs. Maybe the kid was fooled, but do you really want to dunk her head first into the ugly reality of the world? Let them believe a pleasant lie for a little.
when really the ugly side of her families faith had been caught on camera. This seems pretty manipulative to me!
WOW! I never thought i'd be defending theses nut-balls.
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But that is the thing. Practicing any religious faith is a private thing. The idea of selling it and using kids as pawns is pretty distasteful!
Oh i don't disagree. But that is marketing after all. Without some means of propogation, religions would simply die out. Christians believe it is their duty to "spread the word / good news / etc". They are teaching the kid how to "witness" probably becuase she wanted to or asked how to. I did. My friends did. We tought each other how to do it. We would practice "witnessing" to stuffed animals. In some christian circles, "witnessing" is a popular thing to do". It's almost a competitive act.
if an adult was handing out fliers people would feel free to say not for me thank you or possibly something rude.
More than likely something rude in my case, but it depends on what is said. If somebody starts off with "you're going to hell for your sins you [insert specific sin here]er" It usually is responded to with gratuitous use of the "F" word. Sometimes I quote scripture, which really fucks with thier mind. Other times I pretend to be demon possessed. That makes em go wild. Yes you're right. It is a lot more fun with the grown up preachers.
But let the little girl feel like she's doing something important, like she's learning something. It's only so long we have as a child, oblivious to the fucked up world around us. She'll think back on the memories and smile about it. How much harm is it actually doing anybody?
But using a sincere little girl straddles the moral line. Also that kid walked away thinking she has saved a soul
And why not. Kids believe in lies like Santa Claus. It makes them feel good. What is the harm in this. I don't really know personally since in my family, Christmas, was entirely religious in nature. I was told Santa Claus was a lie. I didn't mind. I didn't have any faith in him to lose. I was told, however, never to tell any other children this, since it would upset them.
You may see it as "manipulative" and to the definition of the word you're probably right; however there is no intent to do so. Seriously. Who was harmed by those hand-outs. Maybe the kid was fooled, but do you really want to dunk her head first into the ugly reality of the world? Let them believe a pleasant lie for a little.
when really the ugly side of her families faith had been caught on camera. This seems pretty manipulative to me!
Well i don't know about that. Depending on how you edit video, the shots you choose, the sequencing, etc... you can be pretty "manipulative" with the choice of edits. Let's face it. You want to know why this movie was/is sucessful when the WWASP documentary wasn't: sensationalism.
People want their entertainment factor not truth, they don't want to have to research, and dig up evidence, or even listen to more than a 30 second news clip. It's not possable to compress such information into such a small space without leaving out things and summarizing. In order to summarize, one must choose what is or is not important (which is subjective). Inevitably, in this process, an opinion is expressed.
WOW! I never thought i'd be defending theses nut-balls. I do not personally like these bible thumping twats at all, you know that Oz, you've heard my story, but I don't enjoy seeing a group unfairly slammed either. There are plenty of legitimate things to complain about without distorting their religious practices for maximum entertainment value, such as thier influence in government.
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oops. forgot to login. above post was me. sorry for the double post. i thought i hit the edit button but was not logged on and hit the .. oh nevermind. shouldn't post at 6 am.
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I have only seen the u tube clips not the whole film, but it actually looks reasonably balanced. i dont think the pastor is portrayed as an evil woman or someone who does not care about the kids, I also dont think the kids come across as being from "bad" homes. These people seem quite sincere and likable.
It is just that the "holy war" mentality, even if it is a battle for souls and not bodies is so arrogant and hysterical that those who believe in are not afraid to use children as pawns in the battle. Why should religious faith be something that is sold to anyone like a used car? It is a form of emotional blackmail. Particularly when chidren are used.
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I have been away for several days (traveling on business) and only now caught up on this thread.
I'm not sure it is productive to argue about whether Jesus Camp is brainwashing. Define the word brainwashing. How about indoctrination? Is that word better?
I visited my nine-year-old during my trip. Out of the blue he said he still believes in Santa but not God. Okaaay. I try not to impose any particular belief onto him, so I never contradict these statements. I will let him find his own way. He is convinced there must be a Santa because he believes there is no way his Mom would ever get up in the middle of the night for anyone. :wink: He's right, of course. I was always Santa. He stated this year will be the true test. If I am not there for Christmas and no presents magically appear over night, then Dad was Santa. If they do, then Santa must exist.
I wanted to respond to some other statements made:
psy writes:
I must also epphasize the element of choice in this. Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives". Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to. Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.
I beg to differ on the issue of force. While no one is forcing anyone to become 'born again' they are doing their best to enact laws that force everyone to conform to their values (gay marriage bans, abortion bans, stem cell research bans, etc). If passed, such legislation 'forces' people to comply with these religious values whether they are believers or not. There are still many States that have 'sodomy' laws banning oral sex and I live in a dry county.
psy writes:
So fucking what if people have wacky beliefs and teach it to their kids. I don't aggree with it, i think kids should have the choice; however it is a parent's right raise a kid as he/she wants as long as it does not cross the line into abuse. This is freedom of religion at it's best or worst depending on how you look at it.
But isn't this the crux of the issue with programs? If parents can raise their kids anyway they see fit, does that include sending them to programs? If we are not to question these Jesus Camp teachers, how can we question program parents? Isn't the program doctrine just another wacky belief?
How about abusive cults like this one?
http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes17.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes17.html)
Should parents be allowed to raise their kids like that?
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I'm not sure it is productive to argue about whether Jesus Camp is brainwashing. Define the word brainwashing. How about indoctrination? Is that word better?
I think the question is where does brainwashing end and indoctrination begin?
I'm more or less against both...
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I've successfully avoided this discussion so far and I don't intend to start now, but there is one thing I can't pass up...
AA, you let your 9-year-old continue to believe in Santa Claus? What the fuck is wrong with you? It looks like he's learning critical thinking skills on his own anyway, but jesus FUCK. Maybe this is because of my dad's adamant refusal to tell me anything but the truth about that (ever, at any age), but I'm absolutely mystified about how you of all people let a 9-year-old (NINE! FUCKING NINE!) continue to believe that.
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I. He is convinced there must be a Santa because he believes there is no way his Mom would ever get up in the middle of the night for anyone. :wink: He's right, of course. I was always Santa. He stated this year will be the true test.
Do you guys not leave beer out for santa & a carrot for rudolph? Everybody knows that this is the true test. Santa has been if he drank the beer and rudolph eats the carrot. He does not have to worry about Drunk driving laws as there is no traffic in the sky! Duh!
I would argue that people have been subjecting their kids to thousands of years of kooky religious indoctrination and in most cases there has not really been much harm. People either stay with the faith of their childhood or decide it is not for them and either go with another or become athiests or agniostics.
The key difference between these nutty head slapper camps and programmes is that programmes actively discourage parents from raising their kids at all. "Dont question the abuse, untested counselling methods, potential lack of qualifications or recidivism rates- Just trust the programme"
Fundamentalist Chrsitian parents who allow their kids to go to Pastor Becky are not kept in the dark, seemed to actively attend the services with the kids and therefore could see that the kids were well fed and overall happy (except for the tears & hysterics during the nutbar service) Moreover I doubt if the kid said that the scary lady made them cry they would be told they are liars. I am sure that they would say that this is not a bad thing but there is no evidence to suggest that the kid would not be comforted. Also the kids seemed to want to attend the crazy camp.
Where i do agree with Ant is that the religious right are dangerous because of their arrogant need to crush civil liberites. Abstenence training in schools that are public therefore meant to be spiritually neutral, the general interference with peoples sex lives, the belief that only a christian god should be worshiped. The genreal anti intellectualism! GRRR If i lived in the US i would give em a big bag of Fuck You! But I would be ok with them privately going to their crazy masses as long as they did not require me to go.
Ultimately stupidity & child abuse are not really the same thing.
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wanted to respond to some other statements made:
psy writes:
I must also epphasize the element of choice in this. Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives". Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to. Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.
I beg to differ on the issue of force. While no one is forcing anyone to become 'born again' they are doing their best to enact laws that force everyone to conform to their values (gay marriage bans, abortion bans, stem cell research bans, etc). If passed, such legislation 'forces' people to comply with these religious values whether they are believers or not. There are still many States that have 'sodomy' laws banning oral sex and I live in a dry county.
I agree with you that the republican party uses certain issues to rile up their "base" but I don't think it has anything to do with Jesus Camp (apart for the praying for Bush thing). Read the last sentence of my post. I think it's disgusting for the government to interfere in people's private lives; however i think that "private lives" includes religion as well. I personally find such indoctrination distasteful but i don't think it crosses the line into brainwashing. It is not like these kids are sleep deprived of starved. Nobody is using hypnosis / NLP / guided imagery to mess with these kids minds.
psy writes:
So fucking what if people have wacky beliefs and teach it to their kids. I don't aggree with it, i think kids should have the choice; however it is a parent's right raise a kid as he/she wants as long as it does not cross the line into abuse. This is freedom of religion at it's best or worst depending on how you look at it.
But isn't this the crux of the issue with programs? If parents can raise their kids anyway they see fit, does that include sending them to programs? If we are not to question these Jesus Camp teachers, how can we question program parents? Isn't the program doctrine just another wacky belief?
How about abusive cults like this one?
http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes17.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes17.html)
Should parents be allowed to raise their kids like that?
No. Beating kids is out of the question, as is brainwashing or forced labor, however, as i have said, i don't think Jesus Camp qualifies. Program doctrine is a "Wacky belief" but one is forced to accept it where in Jesus Camp one has a choice. That is the difference.
Although i don't particularly like the indoctrination they preach, I feel there is no ethical way to forbid it. As Voltaire said "I detest what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it".
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BTW ant. i am not sure i will even want to know the answer to this for fear that i will have an attack of the vapours and need to fortify myself with a G&t stat, but what is a Dry county? Please Please tell me it is not a county that bans Alcohol! That would be so terribly wrong!
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Wicca doesn't market. People find us.
Almost all of Neo-Paganism is the same way.
We answer questions if someone asks, but with very few oddball exceptions, we don't care if we get more members or not. We don't think anything bad is going to happen to the people who don't join up, so why bother?
Proselytizing is annoying to the person targetted and a pain in the neck when you could be out just living your life.
Yet various censuses and surveys list us as one of the fastest growing religions, if not the fastest.
Most of us find that interesting, maybe pretty cool, but not enough to go out and try to get people in. Many of us find the hordes of new people a bad thing as new people tend to come in on their own with no teaching and barely a nodding acquaintance with the religion, and can frequently be downright embarrassing in their ignorance when they represent us to others.
We get members from books, but it's not a marketing strategy. Individual neo-pagans want to write books and think they can sell books, so they do the free enterprise thing. The authors are more marketing themselves than us.
But people are beating down our doors. Go figure.
I guess some religions flourish without marketing themselves because people notice it's there and want in on their own.
Does a wild apple tree in an open field up next to the road, clearly on public land, have to market its fruit?
Go figure.
Julie
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PS--not a sales pitch. I'm just disputing the assertion that religions would die out without marketing.
The grass doesn't market itself to the soil, it just grows there.
Most of the religions of the world don't proselytize. Muslims and Christians are fairly unusual in that they do.
It's just that large numbers of people apparently want to have a religion, so they go out and find one on their own.
If it doesn't involve a deliberate effort to sell a product, it's not marketing.
My religion can't be unique in simply not caring if the children adopt it or not. We don't think anything bad is going to happen to people if they don't join up, so as long as our kids are nice people, almost none of us care whether they have a religion or what it is.
Julie
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Julie,
How can people be "beating down" your doors. I thought Wiccans worshipped outside. No doors, just a circle.
I like to shock the more conservative members of my family by informing them the minister that married me is an ordained witch. He is, of course, a Wiccan. He is also an ordained UU minister.
While I enjoyed Wiccan rituals, I found I could never take it seriously. It was like theatre, or a game, to me.
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BTW ant. i am not sure i will even want to know the answer to this for fear that i will have an attack of the vapours and need to fortify myself with a G&t stat, but what is a Dry county? Please Please tell me it is not a county that bans Alcohol! That would be so terribly wrong!
Yes indeed, a dry county bans the sale of alcohol. Actually, I was not really correct in saying that my county is dry. It was. They only ban sales on Sunday now. There are still dry counties, however. One of the most famous dry counties is also home to one of the Nation's largest whiskey producers. Go figure.
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I've successfully avoided this discussion so far and I don't intend to start now, but there is one thing I can't pass up...
AA, you let your 9-year-old continue to believe in Santa Claus? What the fuck is wrong with you? It looks like he's learning critical thinking skills on his own anyway, but jesus FUCK. Maybe this is because of my dad's adamant refusal to tell me anything but the truth about that (ever, at any age), but I'm absolutely mystified about how you of all people let a 9-year-old (NINE! FUCKING NINE!) continue to believe that.
My take is that he is pretending to believe in Santa because he fears that if he does not, the pretend Santas won't deliver the goods anymore. That is how I used to play it as a kid.
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Surely this must have a disasterous effect on the property values of the houses. This sounds just terrible. I am aghast.
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Julie,
How can people be "beating down" your doors. I thought Wiccans worshipped outside. No doors, just a circle.
I like to shock the more conservative members of my family by informing them the minister that married me is an ordained witch. He is, of course, a Wiccan. He is also an ordained UU minister.
While I enjoyed Wiccan rituals, I found I could never take it seriously. It was like theatre, or a game, to me.
You've never seen anyone cut a door in a circle? :-)
On the other, hey, whatever rakes your leaves.
Julie