Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Hyde Schools => Topic started by: MisfitParent on August 17, 2006, 01:49:25 PM
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Over 60 kids graduated this year and seemed to be very grateful for their Hyde experience. A few people on this site seem to be very negative towards Hyde, but most of it seems like misguided anger. Maturity helps you realize things about yourself and there seems to be lots of immaturity here, often disguised by big words and seemingly concerned rhetoric.
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Over 60 kids graduated this year and seemed to be very grateful for their Hyde experience. A few people on this site seem to be very negative towards Hyde, but most of it seems like misguided anger. Maturity helps you realize things about yourself and there seems to be lots of immaturity here, often disguised by big words and seemingly concerned rhetoric.
That's great that 60 kids graduated. I wish them well and hope Hyde was a valuable experience.
I have several questions: Is that a total of 60 for Woodstock and Bath? How many kids started at Hyde and left before graduation? What percentage does this 60 represent? Of the kids who left before graduating, why did they leave? I think that will give a more complete picture of who succeeds at Hyde and who doesn't. I'd like to know what Hyde's attrition rate is like and I'd like feedback about what doesn't work at Hyde. Isn't that important too? My impression is that Hyde has an unusually high attrition rate.
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Over 60 kids graduated this year and seemed to be very grateful for their Hyde experience. A few people on this site seem to be very negative towards Hyde, but most of it seems like misguided anger. Maturity helps you realize things about yourself and there seems to be lots of immaturity here, often disguised by big words and seemingly concerned rhetoric.
Why is it that anyone that has any criticism about Hyde is automatically labeled as "misguided" or "angry" or "disgruntled" or "not working their program" or "immature" or "haven't looked at their own issues" or "disturbed" or......well, you see what I'm getting at.
Do you people ever answer for your own behavior? I also notice that you guys go after the easy targets here. Kids (or grown adults now) are angry. They've got a right to be. Some lash out and get a little outrageous here, I've got no problem with it....I get it. But there are also people here who are asking relevant questions and y'all ignore those and always seem to find the time to address the angry posts. What about answering some of the salient questions and concerns that have been posted?
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I wasn't in Hyde. I was in one of it's predecessors years ago and I recongnize the bullshit when I see it.
Do you people ever answer for your own behavior? I also notice that you guys go after the easy targets here. Kids (or grown adults now) are angry. They've got a right to be. Some lash out and get a little outrageous here, I've got no problem with it....I get it. But there are also people here who are asking relevant questions and y'all ignore those and always seem to find the time to address the angry posts. What about answering some of the salient questions and concerns that have been posted?
Anne... you know nothing, and it's clear from your writing. You never even went to this school, but yet you "know" all about it. Salient questions and concerns should NEVER be addressed in this forum, as they are only distorted and attacked by your type, who have nothing better to do with their lives. As was said before, why don't you just go away...
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Over 60 kids graduated this year and seemed to be very grateful for their Hyde experience. A few people on this site seem to be very negative towards Hyde, but most of it seems like misguided anger. Maturity helps you realize things about yourself and there seems to be lots of immaturity here, often disguised by big words and seemingly concerned rhetoric.
Misfitparent, you are entitled to your own opinion, but the consensus seems to be that Hyde has harmed an awful lot of families. Yes, they might have helped some families, but your figures are far off. Did you go to school at Hyde? Where do you get your info from? Instead of attacking Anne, maybe you ought to go preach your gospel somewhere else because it is clear you don't know what you are talking about. Give us some proof that Hyde graduated 60 students and that the families are grateful. Look at the alumni list and you will see there ain't too many "grateful" families!! At the same time you are giving us those stats why don't you also give us the stats on the kids who start Hyde and never finish.
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Anne... you know nothing, and it's clear from your writing. You never even went to this school, but yet you "know" all about it. Salient questions and concerns should NEVER be addressed in this forum, as they are only distorted and attacked by your type, who have nothing better to do with their lives. As was said before, why don't you just go away...
Why don't you? :rofl:
I never said I knew all about it, I said I reconize bullshit when I see it. Once again, you ignore relevant questions and go after the easy, ad hominems. You continually show that you've got nothing to add to the conversation except personal attacks on those who disagree with you. You can't refute the points we make so instead you just attack the messenger. That's usually what happens when someone realizes they're losing an argument or debate.
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Over 60 kids graduated this year and seemed to be very grateful for their Hyde experience. A few people on this site seem to be very negative towards Hyde, but most of it seems like misguided anger. Maturity helps you realize things about yourself and there seems to be lots of immaturity here, often disguised by big words and seemingly concerned rhetoric.
That's great that 60 kids graduated. I wish them well and hope Hyde was a valuable experience.
I have several questions: Is that a total of 60 for Woodstock and Bath? How many kids started at Hyde and left before graduation? What percentage does this 60 represent? Of the kids who left before graduating, why did they leave? I think that will give a more complete picture of who succeeds at Hyde and who doesn't. I'd like to know what Hyde's attrition rate is like and I'd like feedback about what doesn't work at Hyde. Isn't that important too? My impression is that Hyde has an unusually high attrition rate.
That number was for Bath. Don't know about Woodstock, but I think it was somewhere in the mid-40s. You could probably get that info from Hyde in Woodstock. I can't speak to the attrition numbers or your impression of them, but I believe the ones who graduated would speak to their own experience in a positive way. That was the point of my post.
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Over 60 kids graduated this year and seemed to be very grateful for their Hyde experience. A few people on this site seem to be very negative towards Hyde, but most of it seems like misguided anger. Maturity helps you realize things about yourself and there seems to be lots of immaturity here, often disguised by big words and seemingly concerned rhetoric.
Why is it that anyone that has any criticism about Hyde is automatically labeled as "misguided" or "angry" or "disgruntled" or "not working their program" or "immature" or "haven't looked at their own issues" or "disturbed" or......well, you see what I'm getting at.
Do you people ever answer for your own behavior? I also notice that you guys go after the easy targets here. Kids (or grown adults now) are angry. They've got a right to be. Some lash out and get a little outrageous here, I've got no problem with it....I get it. But there are also people here who are asking relevant questions and y'all ignore those and always seem to find the time to address the angry posts. What about answering some of the salient questions and concerns that have been posted?
Not sure what you mean by "you people" Bonney and not sure I was going after any "easy targets". I didn't say anyone was misguided or angry, I said that in the case of a few negative people, their anger seemed perhaps misguided. Please don't put words in my mouth and twist my post to sound as if I am attacking anyone (as you seem to). I think anonymous might be giving you some good advice...
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Over 60 kids graduated this year and seemed to be very grateful for their Hyde experience. A few people on this site seem to be very negative towards Hyde, but most of it seems like misguided anger. Maturity helps you realize things about yourself and there seems to be lots of immaturity here, often disguised by big words and seemingly concerned rhetoric.
Misfitparent, you are entitled to your own opinion, but the consensus seems to be that Hyde has harmed an awful lot of families. Yes, they might have helped some families, but your figures are far off. Did you go to school at Hyde? Where do you get your info from? Instead of attacking Anne, maybe you ought to go preach your gospel somewhere else because it is clear you don't know what you are talking about. Give us some proof that Hyde graduated 60 students and that the families are grateful. Look at the alumni list and you will see there ain't too many "grateful" families!! At the same time you are giving us those stats why don't you also give us the stats on the kids who start Hyde and never finish.
Guest, Consensus of whom? The consensus of the people I know seems to be that Hyde offers a challenging and rewarding experience. I don't see how my comments are an attack leveled at Anne, and I don't see where you get off telling me to go somewhere else for noting the number of graduates this year (66 on the program), who spoke well of their experience at their graduation. I might ask you to re-read my comment about misguided anger, as you seem to be supporting it.
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Not sure what you mean by "you people" Bonney and not sure I was going after any "easy targets". I didn't say anyone was misguided or angry, I said that in the case of a few negative people, their anger seemed perhaps misguided. Please don't put words in my mouth and twist my post to sound as if I am attacking anyone (as you seem to). I think anonymous might be giving you some good advice...
These two posts look like personal attacks to me. Questioning someone else's maturity level, dismissing anything negative about Hyde as "rhetoric" or said out of a "lack of maturity", telling me to "just go away".
Over 60 kids graduated this year and seemed to be very grateful for their Hyde experience. A few people on this site seem to be very negative towards Hyde, but most of it seems like misguided anger. Maturity helps you realize things about yourself and there seems to be lots of immaturity here, often disguised by big words and seemingly concerned rhetoric.
Anne... you know nothing, and it's clear from your writing. You never even went to this school, but yet you "know" all about it. Salient questions and concerns should NEVER be addressed in this forum, as they are only distorted and attacked by your type, who have nothing better to do with their lives. As was said before, why don't you just go away...
So, how does Hyde bring about these miraculous changes in their "students"? What's the process? How does the "character based education" that's advertised at Hyde work?
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At the same time you are giving us those stats why don't you also give us the stats on the kids who start Hyde and never finish.
I'd like to see that too.
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Not sure what you mean by "you people" Bonney and not sure I was going after any "easy targets". I didn't say anyone was misguided or angry, I said that in the case of a few negative people, their anger seemed perhaps misguided. Please don't put words in my mouth and twist my post to sound as if I am attacking anyone (as you seem to). I think anonymous might be giving you some good advice...
These two posts look like personal attacks to me. Questioning someone else's maturity level, dismissing anything negative about Hyde as "rhetoric" or said out of a "lack of maturity", telling me to "just go away".
Over 60 kids graduated this year and seemed to be very grateful for their Hyde experience. A few people on this site seem to be very negative towards Hyde, but most of it seems like misguided anger. Maturity helps you realize things about yourself and there seems to be lots of immaturity here, often disguised by big words and seemingly concerned rhetoric.
Anne... you know nothing, and it's clear from your writing. You never even went to this school, but yet you "know" all about it. Salient questions and concerns should NEVER be addressed in this forum, as they are only distorted and attacked by your type, who have nothing better to do with their lives. As was said before, why don't you just go away...
So, how does Hyde bring about these miraculous changes in their "students"? What's the process? How does the "character based education" that's advertised at Hyde work?
Alas Bonney, I'm afraid it may be too late for you. If you wish knowledge, seek it at the source, don't ask others to do what you can do better yourself. As for attacks, my comments were not intended as such, but it seems you do have a way of inviting them with the way you lash out at visitors to this site.
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Alas Bonney, I'm afraid it may be too late for you. If you wish knowledge, seek it at the source, don't ask others to do what you can do better yourself. As for attacks, my comments were not intended as such, but it seems you do have a way of inviting them with the way you lash out at visitors to this site.
You seem to have appointed yourself spokesperson, so I was asking. What, can't answer the question? If you've got so much faith in Hyde and what they do for kids, what's the problem with asking some questions about how it works?
Where did I lash out at anyone?
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I ask you again Misfit, what about all the students who start Hyde and drop out? I can answer that for you. More students drop out than stay at Hyde and guess what? Every single one of those parents lose thousands and thousands of dollars while Joe Gauld's pockets get bigger and bigger. When he stands up there on his throne talking about how he doesn't get rich off of Hyde and he isn't in it for the money, he is full of it!! The guy is very wealthy and the empire they are building is off of false promises to families.
Oh and by the way, if indeed you do have anything to do with this school which I doubt, you would know that those happy faces up there at graduation is because we couldn't wait to get out of that hell hole!! Believe it or not we were told to kiss Joe Gauld upon getting our diploma. He likes to put on a good show for the parents.
I've seen it over and over again on this website about Hyde being a Cult. There is no doubt that it does fall under that definition.
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I ask you again Misfit, what about all the students who start Hyde and drop out? I can answer that for you. More students drop out than stay at Hyde and guess what? Every single one of those parents lose thousands and thousands of dollars while Joe Gauld's pockets get bigger and bigger. When he stands up there on his throne talking about how he doesn't get rich off of Hyde and he isn't in it for the money, he is full of it!! The guy is very wealthy and the empire they are building is off of false promises to families.
Oh and by the way, if indeed you do have anything to do with this school which I doubt, you would know that those happy faces up there at graduation is because we couldn't wait to get out of that hell hole!! Believe it or not we were told to kiss Joe Gauld upon getting our diploma. He likes to put on a good show for the parents.
I've seen it over and over again on this website about Hyde being a Cult. There is no doubt that it does fall under that definition.
As I understand it, Hyde is a non-profit organization run by a Board of Trustees. No money, other than a salary, goes into anyone's pocket there. Did you graduate from Hyde? Funny, I talked to several at length after the ceremony, and they all seemed to be very proud, pleased and grateful of their experience. Not sure that everyone kissed Joe Gauld, and I recall one rather brushed him off. Oh well. Did he try to slip you some tongue when he kissed you? If you look up the definition of cult, I find it hard to see where Hyde would fit within it. It's easy to name-call and that seems to happen a lot here as well.
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Alas Bonney, I'm afraid it may be too late for you. If you wish knowledge, seek it at the source, don't ask others to do what you can do better yourself. As for attacks, my comments were not intended as such, but it seems you do have a way of inviting them with the way you lash out at visitors to this site.
You seem to have appointed yourself spokesperson, so I was asking. What, can't answer the question? If you've got so much faith in Hyde and what they do for kids, what's the problem with asking some questions about how it works?
Where did I lash out at anyone?
In no way did I appoint myself spokesperson, but rather I posted an observation and commentary about Hyde and some posters on this website. I'm not in a postion to answer many of these questions, so therefore they need to be addressed elsewhere. I'm not going to spend my time doing your legwork for you. If you want to know, ask someone at Hyde School. Your initial response to my post is as follows:
Why is it that anyone that has any criticism about Hyde is automatically labeled as "misguided" or "angry" or "disgruntled" or "not working their program" or "immature" or "haven't looked at their own issues" or "disturbed" or......well, you see what I'm getting at.
Do you people ever answer for your own behavior? I also notice that you guys go after the easy targets here. Kids (or grown adults now) are angry. They've got a right to be. Some lash out and get a little outrageous here, I've got no problem with it....I get it. But there are also people here who are asking relevant questions and y'all ignore those and always seem to find the time to address the angry posts. What about answering some of the salient questions and concerns that have been posted?
Sounds like a lash to me. I can understand why people would ask you to go away. You probably get comments like that wherever you slither. I'd prefer not to address you anymore, as you're pretty much a waste of time and energy. Thanks for understanding.
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In no way did I appoint myself spokesperson, but rather I posted an observation and commentary about Hyde and some posters on this website.
Ok, you didn't officially say you were a spokesperson but you sure came on here implying you had a good deal of knowledge about Hyde and I was asking you about it.
I'm not in a postion to answer many of these questions, so therefore they need to be addressed elsewhere. I'm not going to spend my time doing your legwork for you. If you want to know, ask someone at Hyde School.
You are in a position to answer questions about your understanding of how Hyde works. Your impressions and why you feel that way aren't you? I'm not asking for Hyde's explanation, I've read what they have to say. I'm asking you why you feel the way you do.
Your initial response to my post is as follows:
Why is it that anyone that has any criticism about Hyde is automatically labeled as "misguided" or "angry" or "disgruntled" or "not working their program" or "immature" or "haven't looked at their own issues" or "disturbed" or......well, you see what I'm getting at.
Do you people ever answer for your own behavior? I also notice that you guys go after the easy targets here. Kids (or grown adults now) are angry. They've got a right to be. Some lash out and get a little outrageous here, I've got no problem with it....I get it. But there are also people here who are asking relevant questions and y'all ignore those and always seem to find the time to address the angry posts. What about answering some of the salient questions and concerns that have been posted?
Sounds like a lash to me. I can understand why people would ask you to go away. You probably get comments like that wherever you slither. I'd prefer not to address you anymore, as you're pretty much a waste of time and energy. Thanks for understanding.
I don't think that was an attack. Lashing out in frustration, maybe. It seems that any time anyone has a criticism of Hyde they automatically dismissed as being one of those things I mentioned above. Aside from the tone the point is valid. You just will not engage in any discussion about your beliefs or what you've posted here. I haven't called anyone names, that I recall, although I have been known to do that too sometimes.
Here's a peace offering. Let's start over. Let's be civil and adult and discuss the issues. I apologize for my frustrated and arrogant tone. I seriously would like to know more about this place. From everything I've read, including the supportive things, about Joe Gauld it reminds me of Miller Newton and that interests me very much. I've seen and researched a lot of these places and I haven't come up against one that reminds me of him in quite the way that Gauld does. If I'm wrong I promise, I'll admit it but the things I've seen so far disturb me greatly. Since you seem to have so much faith in him I would honestly like to hear why. Even if I don't agree with you it might give both of us a better understanding of the others point of view. Deal? ::dove::
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Alas Bonney, I'm afraid it may be too late for you. If you wish knowledge, seek it at the source, don't ask others to do what you can do better yourself. As for attacks, my comments were not intended as such, but it seems you do have a way of inviting them with the way you lash out at visitors to this site.
You seem to have appointed yourself spokesperson, so I was asking. What, can't answer the question? If you've got so much faith in Hyde and what they do for kids, what's the problem with asking some questions about how it works?
Where did I lash out at anyone?
In no way did I appoint myself spokesperson, but rather I posted an observation and commentary about Hyde and some posters on this website. I'm not in a postion to answer many of these questions, so therefore they need to be addressed elsewhere. I'm not going to spend my time doing your legwork for you. If you want to know, ask someone at Hyde School. Your initial response to my post is as follows:
Why is it that anyone that has any criticism about Hyde is automatically labeled as "misguided" or "angry" or "disgruntled" or "not working their program" or "immature" or "haven't looked at their own issues" or "disturbed" or......well, you see what I'm getting at.
Do you people ever answer for your own behavior? I also notice that you guys go after the easy targets here. Kids (or grown adults now) are angry. They've got a right to be. Some lash out and get a little outrageous here, I've got no problem with it....I get it. But there are also people here who are asking relevant questions and y'all ignore those and always seem to find the time to address the angry posts. What about answering some of the salient questions and concerns that have been posted?
Sounds like a lash to me. I can understand why people would ask you to go away. You probably get comments like that wherever you slither. I'd prefer not to address you anymore, as you're pretty much a waste of time and energy. Thanks for understanding.
Why is do you say "you people" like everyone who supports Hyde is lumped together with one way of thinking? You insult us, but then want to know things from us.
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Why is do you say "you people" like everyone who supports Hyde is lumped together with one way of thinking? You insult us, but then want to know things from us.
You mean the same way that you lumped all "anti-programmies" together?
Are you going to answer any of the questions or just dodge and perry?
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That's parry. Perry was the guy who posted elsewhere that he was willing to have a vigorous debate with you, buth then you drove him off...
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That's parry. Perry was the guy who posted elsewhere that he was willing to have a vigorous debate with you, buth then you drove him off...
By asking him pointed and direct questions? Wow. I don't know about Hyde other than what I've read on their site, here and a few other places. That's why I'm asking. Why is that so hard to understand?
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So then maybe if you said " I am interested in learning more about this sometimes-controversial place called Hyde School. Can someone please tell me more about XXX", rather than insulting people and pre-loading the gun with anger, ready to shoot back at whoever is foolish enough to respond to you in this forum? Who would waste their time (other than me) to subject themself to the abuse?
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So then maybe if you said " I am interested in learning more about this sometimes-controversial place called Hyde School. Can someone please tell me more about XXX", rather than insulting people and pre-loading the gun with anger, ready to shoot back at whoever is foolish enough to respond to you in this forum? Who would waste their time (other than me) to subject themself to the abuse?
How the hell have i abused anyone? Yes, I have some opinions about Hyde based on what I've read so far. So what? That means I can't ask for more info? Especially from the people that went and taught there? Instead of questioning my motives for wanting to know (does it really matter what my motives are?) why not just address the issues?
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So then maybe if you said " I am interested in learning more about this sometimes-controversial place called Hyde School. Can someone please tell me more about XXX", rather than insulting people and pre-loading the gun with anger, ready to shoot back at whoever is foolish enough to respond to you in this forum? Who would waste their time (other than me) to subject themself to the abuse?
How the hell have i abused anyone? Yes, I have some opinions about Hyde based on what I've read so far. So what? That means I can't ask for more info? Especially from the people that went and taught there? Instead of questioning my motives for wanting to know (does it really matter what my motives are?) why not just address the issues?
Seems to me you first have some anger to work through Bonney, before anyone will be willing play (or "debate") with you.
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How typically program of you to say that. Anyone who won't play the way you want just isn't worth talking to.
I'm arrogant. You're arrogant. So what? Can we talk about the issues now? I've held out the olive branch before and I'm always told that I have to ask a certain way or the right questions. What's the point if I can't speak my mind and ask you direct questions about your experience in Hyde?
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Hyde teaches us to speak out and to confront. Only problem is, Hyde doesn't want you to speak out or confront THEM!!
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Hyde teaches us to speak out and to confront. Only problem is, Hyde doesn't want you to speak out or confront THEM!!
Such courage of you to lob hand grenades at Hyde from the anonymity of this site! If you truly believe Hyde is so dangerous and destructive, why not confront them directly, and with some facts.
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No need to confront. Hyde doesn't care. Have tried to talk to them and sent letters. They don't want to hear it.
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No need to confront. Hyde doesn't care. Have tried to talk to them and sent letters. They don't want to hear it.
How do you know they don't listen to what you say? My experience has been that rational, constructive, meaningful observation or criticism is considered and can contribute to changes, but sometimes slowly over time. I could take the position that a letter to George Bush against the Iraq war will be ignored, but if enough of them come, it may affect policy over time. If something is important enough, don't just give up and resign yourself to accepting it, or you'll ensure things will not change.
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Why is it that being disgruntled is seen as a bad thing in and of itself. If i buy a product which is faulty I then feel disgruntled. This is not unreasonable. If someone feels their education at a private school which they paid money to attend is inadequate then why should being disgruntled about this be dismissed?
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If someone is just disgruntled, who cares except them?
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If someone is just disgruntled, who cares except them?
If you're disgruntled, take your business elsewhere and live your life. If you're trying to justify it by coming here and whining and bitching and looking for others to whine and bitch with you, you're holding yourself back from moving on. And I don't thing anyone with much intelligence would take seriously the crap that flows from this site. I certainly don't, but I do find it amusing...
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Let's try and keep this meaningful...
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Most of what is here is crap...don't see much meaningful except the rants of losers.
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You have to look very closely to find anything reasonable.
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Hyde is not exactly a reasonable place! :em:
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If someone is just disgruntled, who cares except them?
If you're disgruntled, take your business elsewhere and live your life. If you're trying to justify it by coming here and whining and bitching and looking for others to whine and bitch with you, you're holding yourself back from moving on. And I don't thing anyone with much intelligence would take seriously the crap that flows from this site. I certainly don't, but I do find it amusing...
The process of bitching and whining is part of the process of healing and moving on. An experience like Hyde, which of it's own spin, is not normal leaves marks on your life. If your indoctrination into the Gauld Cabal of Character works in your life, then good for you. The problem is it does not work for most. Only a fraction of those that survive the process to graduation are deemed worthy of diplomas and many never make it that far. Those that fail are told it is because they are some how deficient, which IMHO is a bunch of crap and has caused damage in the name of growth and healing.
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I second the comments of the last poster. And I would also go so far as to apply them to those for whom Hyde has been an alledgedly positive experience. Coercion, which is the blandest way I can put it, will -- sooner or later -- have its price.
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It's weird to me to see Program people come on here and describe Fornits participants as "losers."
Their definition of "loser" seems to be: "Someone who is a vocal Program critic."
Or, more accurately, their definition of loser seems to be: "Someone who's saying things I don't want to hear."
There's no objective definition of "loser" that seems to apply to the disillusioned Program survivors on Fornits. One of the Program survivors is a millionare--no thanks to the Program. Ginger is a successful small business owner--no thanks to the Program.
I can cite all kinds of financial and professional success various Program critics on Fornits have had. I'm not the only one who's racked up substantial bragging right in my professional life.
That's nice, but I think the real measure of our success in life is our ability to form and sustain close, long-term relationships with other people. Also, our success can be measured in the extent to which our moral, ethical, and spiritual development motivates us to seek to alleviate the suffering of people weaker and more vulnerable than ourselves.
The Program critics on Fornits almost universally have strong and well-developed moral and ethical beliefs, and a deep sense of responsibility to challenge injustice and seek to improve the lot in life of people who we believe are suffering.
Very likely, most Program critics engage in substantial charity and volunteering unrelated to their advocacy here---charity and volunteering for which they neither seek nor get money, recognition, or credit. We seek healthy opportunities to alleviate the suffering of those weaker and more vulnerable for their own sake.
A whole lot of the Program critics on Fornits have healthy, deep, human relationships--whether with a spouse, long-term friends, their children, extended family members, or one or more members of their childhood immediate family. We know this because many of us have come to know each other and have talked in passing about various of our loved ones in our lives. We critics' success in building and maintaining close bonds with chosen loved ones is probably near universal.
By those measures, arguably the very best measures of success in life, NONE of these Program critics are "losers."
Comparatively, Program Shills' personal lives rarely seem to pass the sniff test.
Julie