Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 29, 2006, 10:20:14 AM
-
JUDGE FOR YOURSELF
It seems Holier Than Thou Advocate Barbe Stampe blatantly advertised Outward Board Programs - I wonder if the TWO kids that recently died in their programs in the past 30 days were recommended by Barbe? Wow, it is easy to point fingers isn't it? Not only did Barbe "promote" them - she blogged about them - Of course Mrs. or is it is Ms. now Stampe attempted to delete it, but those darn cached files will expose you. Seems she referred to a program that 2 kids died at IN 30 DAYS! - does that mean it is her fault? Of course we know you will justify this - like Barbe didn't know etc. WHERE IS THE SHAME NOW??????
Luckily I printed out her ADVERTISEMENT for Outwardbound that was on her site with the picture of OB and a link to their website. If I knew how to post it here I would - if any techy out there could tell me, please post it. To add salt in Elisa's family wound, Barbe has the nerve to post on her memory board! As a person that knows friends of this family - I think it is disgusting for this so called advocate to promote the very issue she claims to be against.
Again anyone out there that could help me post this ad from her site, let me know. The world and Elisa and Dillans family need to know - some of these advocates are no friends. :(
-
I smell bullshit.
Any idiot can edit a cached page.
-
No idiot here, it even states Barbe is a outdoor person, loves the outdoors, it is not a edited cached, just tell how to post this pdf that I printed and scanned and I will. She even had the outward bound logo boldly on her site. Now in its place is some no referral zone, probably after her two referrals died in outward bound programs, but that is just an assumption.
tell me how to post this, you will see clearly these advocates promoted Outward Bound!
-
So, let me get this straight. Even though you know about the existence of cached files, you made a PDF, printed it out, scanned it, and don't know how to post your "evidence" which will consist of a single screenshot.
...and you're just NOW telling us about this link which happened at some indeterminate time in the past.
RIGHT.
Anyone else want to take bets that this is just going to be a cheap hack job in MS Paint? Too stupid even to edit the HTML...
-
Stay tuned - you will see. The advocate against Wilderness promoted Outward Bound even advertised them on her site until a week or so ago. Ask Her! It seems she thought because the kids have to be willing to go, which she obviously didn't research enough, they were harmless. 2 deaths in 30 deaths doesn't sound harmless.
Talk about being a hypocrite! Wonder if they were paid advertising or if she got paid for the referrals. The post will be here. stay tuned.
-
If outward bound is truly consentual-ONLY, no coersion, and take you home if you say enough is enough, and people like that kind of thing and they want to do it for fun, thats fine.
However, I cant stand by and reccomend hiking as 'therapy' anymore than any other sport or hobby would be. Except hiking in remote areas has some risks and physically strains the hikers, which is why its commonly used to physically wear them down for the mindfuck slavemarch programs.
Anyway, I dont quite know what Barbe's doing. Shes more than capable of speaking for herself. People cry out for an "ALTERNATIVE!!!" other than "BE A PARENT!!!!!!" so I guess this is an attempt to meet that?
Regardless, hiking is no more therapy than any other sport or hobby. Its a sport or a fucking hobby!
-
Outward bound is an international movement. In most countries it is not necessarily just for troubled kids & is entirely consensual and has a long standing reputation. To claim that the outward bound movement is abusive in it's nature would be like claiming that the scouts is.
-
All of those programs are pure bullshit.
-
Bottom line is Barbe advertised for a program on her site where two kids died within a month. We have seen plenty of lashing at others on this forum for referring kids to programs, and none of those people referred to a program where a child died - let alone 2. So there is a problem here.
The sad part of this is that Barbe always sounds "holier than thou" but she's not any better than anyone else and she really has not business referring people to a program saying it is stricly voluntary when its not. She didn't do her homework that is for sure or she would have known they have programs for troubled teens. They contract out with states and take their overflow kids and start up behavior mod programs just like the rest of them. They are no better, they are in it to make a lot of money.
It seemed that she was definitely promoting their program, where she included a note to parents that read:
?OBW (Outward Bound Wilderness) courses are intended as an adventure-education experience and are not to be confused with for-profit wilderness therapy programs (AKA ?Brat Camp?). Participation is strictly voluntary meaning kids can not be forced to participate??
OB charges a lot of money for their programs and is very much for-profit and not always voluntary. These are important things to know. Parents who saw the ad hopefully will read this and see that even with OB they have to be careful.
They obviously do not value children's lives. Dillon Peak died because counselors at the program he was at - that was not voluntary - did not take proper care of him when he got sick.
Elisa died after being separated from her group for 10 hours. That's a long time to be alone in 110 degree weather. And OB admitted they allow these kids to hike alone but they don't tell the parents up front. Elisa's mom was promised her daughter would be supervised. She didn't want to send her daughter but the person who was helping her daughter with the scholarship she won promised her mom it would be safe, that no one had died and that she would be supervised.
i googled outward bound and barbe stampe and found this so she did support outward bound and that is where 2 kids just died.
I did just a little more digging and found this old cached file where Barbe, in 2005, was apparently in support of Outward Bound and appeared to be recommending them to parents. She stated:
?Second, as an outdoor enthusiast myself, I have no problem with kids learning wilderness survival skills such as those taught by the OUTWARD BOUND programs.
In fact, my best advice to parents considering sending their child to a wilderness therapy camp is to look into the INDIVIDUAL and FAMILY wilderness adventure programs and experiential training offered by Outward Bound. Strictly VOLUNTARY, these programs have an excellent safety record and are reasonably priced.? (see below)
here's the link: http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/threa ... &start=426 (http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/thread-view.asp?threadid=225&start=426)
Teen Advocates USA
Social Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: 2005-07-20
User Profile
Subject : RE: Brat Camp
Posted : 2005-07-30 10:08 PM
Post #5790 - In reply to #5788
Originally written by AtomicAnt on 2005-07-31 1:43 PM
Rusty,
I'm not willing to dismiss your anecdotal evidence as easily as others. If your son and other relatives had positive experiences then that is great. I'm really glad it worked out.
For me, the coercive part is the most objectionable aspect. It's the concept that a group of people can force an ideology onto someone against their will. In the case of Brat Camp, it is difficult to understand my objections. Who can object to turning drug abusing teens into well behaving teens? But did you know that some of these camps are designed to force a 'Christian' perspective on the students? Did you know there are camps that are designed to force gay kids into being straight? These kids are also in these camps against their will (parents can do this in the USA).
I watch the show and cringe thinking of how I would have reacted to these counselors and this form of therapy. My core values are not popular and often misunderstood. I formed these values during childhood. They are not my parents values. Had I been sent to one of these camps and forced to act in a certain way to progress through the program, knowing that if I did not give in, the chances would be good that I would end up in one of these oppressive boarding schools, I honestly think I would become either homicidal or suicidal; the tragic result of which the program would call my 'choice.' To me, this process is too close to 'A Clockwork Orange' and too Orwellian in nature to be ethical.
Even the language used. "We are giving these kids the opportunity to change." That implies choice where there really is not choice. The student must accept the program, period. The program will not the student go until he submits. That is coercion, which to me is intrinsically wrong. The ends does not justify the means.
____________
Barbe said:
Personally? I think parents would be very wise to steer clear of any so-called troubled teen program that equates CHANGE with INDOCTRINATION.
Second, as an outdoor enthusiast myself, I have no problem with kids learning wilderness survival skills such as those taught by the OUTWARD BOUND programs.
In fact, my best advice to parents considering sending their child to a wilderness therapy camp is to look into the INDIVIDUAL and FAMILY wilderness adventure programs and experiential training offered by Outward Bound. Strictly VOLUNTARY, these programs have an excellent safety record and are reasonably priced.
http://www.outwardbound.com (http://www.outwardbound.com)
Barbe
TAUSA
[Edited by Teen Advocates USA on 2005-07-30 10:11 PM]
* * * * * * * * *
And there were problems back in '93
07/29/03
Juveniles riot at Outward Bound
Six teens charged, transported to Manatee
DESOTO COUNTY -- Six juvenile residents of the Peace River Outward Bound Center were charged with inciting a riot and were transported to the Manatee County Juvenile Detention Center late Sunday night.
One staff member, whose name was not released, reportedly suffered a hand injury in the incident. No one else was hurt.
According to Maj. Will Wise of the DeSoto County Sheriff's Office, the riot began shortly after 10 p.m. Sunday when six juveniles were directed to return to their rooms. The juveniles, all boys, reportedly became physically aggressive and caused approximately 30 other residents to become unruly as well.
Phillip K. Johnson, 15; Michael R. Roshell, 13; Joshua Swartz, 14; Justin B. Williams, 14; Manny Rivera, 14; and Aron McQueen, 16, were all charged with inciting a riot, which is a felony. The boys come from throughout the state and from cities as far away as Tampa and Naples.
"(Several of the juveniles) became uncooperative when staff asked them to stay in their rooms," a sheriff's deputy wrote in a report. "(They) also encouraged the rest of the juveniles to participate in the protest."
Initially, deputies were concerned some of the residents had fled the facility and were hiding in nearby wooded areas. One officer wrote in a report he was concerned the juveniles were armed with weapons.
Outward Bound staff declined to comment Monday.
***************************
Now, I find this new website ?Referral Free Zone? where Barbe is listed. How can this be? http://www.referralfreezone.info/zonesites.html (http://www.referralfreezone.info/zonesites.html)
How can she profess to belong to the Referral Free Zone when just a few weeks ago she appeared to be promoting Outward Bound? What if the parents of Dillon and Elisa saw her ad, and thought that since she has all of this information, Oh Holy Thy Children, and all, that of course anything she refers to must be good. But somehow, it seems two kids are dead within 30 days.
And what made her believe she had the insight to refer to this program in the first place, when she is one of the first to point the finger at others, joining in the effort to discredit others who are working to expose the abuse and to protect children.
Just because Barbe has removed the Outward Bound advertisement from her website does not excuse the fact that she obviously did not do her homework.
Bottom line is she was referring kids to a program and two kids died there. You can make all the excuses you want for her but then stop accusing other advocates who try to help parents find good places for their kids. It is hypocritical and other ppl will see that too.
-
http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/t ... rcept.html (http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/type/intercept.html)
From their website:
Intercept - A Special Program for Troubled Teens
You find yourself trying to look at the world through your teen's eyes. You see a rocky and unsettling road from adolescence to adulthood, filled with potholes, perils and teen-age pitfalls. You want to lend a hand. We can help.
Who Is It For? Intercept is designed to help struggling teens ages 14 to 17 and young adults 18 to 20 years old from all over the United States wanting to transition their lives in more meaningful and positive directions. :
Poor school performance
Anger management
Defiance
Low motivation
Risky behaviors such as experimenting with drugs or alcohol, sneaking out, or truancy.
We fully understand that your teen may not be highly motivated to come here. We do, however, require that they agree to participate and follow our rules. For tips and suggestions on how to present this opportunity to your child, or to find out more about what's in it for you as parents or guardians, call one of our Admission Advisors at 866-467-7651.
-
Ah HA!
So she in fact did refer kids to Outward Bound. Okay. The evidence looks legit. I'll retract my statements.
She made a mistake and corrected it later. She was under the impression that they were totally voluntary. Bad Barbe. Bad. Don't do that again. Do your fucking homework, yes. A lot of posters on this forum were under the same impression.
And you're using that to get us to stop criticizing shitheads like Sue Scheff and Izzy who repeatedly and continually refer to abusive programs for money?
Not fucking happening, bub.
-
WTF
http://www.troubledteensprograms.com/pr ... og_id=2352 (http://www.troubledteensprograms.com/programs/programs.php?prog_id=2352)
Thompson Island Outward Bound
Brad M. Reedy, Ph.D., L.M.F.T.
Phone: (435)738-2040
Fax: (435)738-2046
Email: brad@snwp.com
Brad began his studies at Brigham Young University where he graduated Magna Cum Laude with a B.S. in Family Science. Next, he attended Loma Linda University where he received an M.S. in Marriage and Family Therapy. He returned to B.Y.U. and completed his Ph.D. in Marriage and Family Therapy. During school, Brad?s clinical experience included work with sexually abused children, domestically violent offenders, and adults/adolescents with Substance Abuse and Dependence.
Research and clinical interests include treatment with sexual abuse victims, family trauma and associated processes, chemical dependence, personality disorders, sexual perpetrators, and developmental psychology. Brad works with a variety of populations which often include students with dual diagnoses or gifted I.Q.?s.
In the public sector, Brad worked with young victims of physical and sexual abuse at Loma Linda University Hospital, domestic violence victims and perpetrators at Riverside Family Service Agency, and sexual perpetrators at Center for Family Development. In private practice, Brad has also worked with individuals and families with eating disorders and other addictions. Brad later worked as a field therapist and Clinical Director with Aspen Achievement Academy and Aspen Ranch.
Brad currently serves as one of the principal partners at Second Nature Wilderness Program and is the supervisor for the Clinical and Admissions Departments.
Born and raised in Orange County, California, the middle of three boys, Brad was raised by his mother. He grew up surfing, listening to Bob Dylan, and causing his mom a great deal of grief. Brad is married and has three children. He enjoys golf, wakeboarding, snow skiing, motocross, and running. He is an avid fan of the Los Angeles Lakers and the Anaheim Angels and can be easily engaged in a debate on any sports-related topic.
-
Outward Bound Voyageur School
http://www.teenprogram.info/schools/view/687 (http://www.teenprogram.info/schools/view/687)
TeenProgram.info - Outward Bound Voyageur School - Wilderness Program in Minnesota
Information and reasearch center for troubled teen programs, private schools, boarding schools, military schools, wilderness programs, bootcamps, etc. ... Home Page Program Search Troubled Teen Programs Contact Us Member Sign-Up School Sign-Up ... Outward Bound Voyageur School, MN. Voyageur lives and breathes our commitment to serving ...www.teenprogram.info/schools/view/687
-
http://www.parentteenguide.com/oba.html (http://www.parentteenguide.com/oba.html)
Looks so much like WWASP propoganda
What are the operational philosophies of Outward Bound Progr
Outward bound programs usually operate as short-term programs lasting only a few weeks of intense activity. Outward bound programs put a lot of emphasis on physical activity and calisthenics. Outward bound programs are notorious for there outdoor environment as being one of the key reasons for change in behavior. Outward bound programs operate by having the students do a lot of physical activities such as hiking, climbing, camping, water sports etc. Although changing the environment of a defiant teen may help temporarily, it is not likely the key to internalization and personal growth that must take place for a person to decide to change his or her behavior long term. Outward bound offers many outdoor courses for different ages and for different user needs.
What are typical results of an Outward Bound Program?
While there are obvious differences based upon factors such as student personality and the particular outward bound program. It cannot be emphasized enough that due to years of a troubled youth building non-working choices, habits and attitudes that it is near psychologically impossible to do an about face in a short period of time and maintain positive results long-term.
Outward Bound Alternatives
If you are looking to get help for a struggling teen and are considering some different options, check out: Troubled Teens - Tips For Parents. This may serve as an excellent guide to help you decide which are the best options for your struggling teen.
-
I have a real problem with OB operating or at least lending its corporate name to youth adjudication programs. That is a far cry from what the organization used to represent.
On the other hand, they DO still offer what I consider some interesting looking family adventures that include backpacking, canoeing, etc.:
http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/p ... ype=Family (http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/pageserver.cgi?tpl=course_info.tpl&name=course_search_cnf&type=Family)
Whether these are therapeutic or not is your call, but I personally think a family backpacking trip might be very rewarding if all members of the family want to do that.
-
I'm not real thriled with the idea of OB connected with adjudicated youth - the only instance of "captive" participants. HOWEVER, what they offer may - just may - be better than alternatives for the subject youth, and even may be an alternative to some other confinement. In other words, even in the adjudicated programs the kids may have some choice. [As a side note, at least one for-profit company running a good wilderness program (yes, there are some good ones -but lets not debate that now) and serving adjudicatedyouth, keeps the adjudicated kids separate and won't keep the most difficult ones - returning them to the sheriff/whoever, so there is still an option for the kid.]
The other point -- even the OB programs for "troubled" teens are not intended for what might be called "hard core" "troubled teens". Rather, they are better for providing a break and chance for reflection for kids without such entrenched behaviors - "early" intervention, if you will. AND, the programs do require participant consent, anthough not necessarily enthusiastic eagerness.
-
Barbe Stampe did promote Outward Bound, based on it being a "voluntary program."
It appears that Barbe Stampe did remove her "advertisement and support of Outward Bound." That is what anyone would do after the death of this 16 year old girl in the Outward Bound Program.
BUT, the OP's suggestion, accusation that Barbe Stampe had anythng to do with these recent tragic deaths of these too people in these Utah programs is absolutely absurd.
The 28 year old guy enrolled himself into this survival course.
The 16 year old girl, Elisa, WON THE TRIP to Outward Bound through her school. NEITHER was referred by anyone.
And yes, TSW is correct.
The likes of Isabelle at CAICA will continue to be highly criticized for supporting the likes of Sue Scheff /PUREwho makes big money referring children into abusive programs.
Falsely accusing Barbe Stampes of referring these two people into a program where they died is just wrong..
Then filling such a posting with personal unsubstaintiated remarks like "is it MRS. or MS?" is immature, vicious, uncalled-for and speaks volumes about the OP poster's small-mindedness and need to hurt Barbe Stamps.
It is obvious who this OP poster is, now isn't it?
-
And IZZY get this:
The guy who died in the Utah survival program was NOT A KID...he was 29 years old. That's a MAN in anyone's book.
-
No wonder you never move forward, your all so obsessed with the little problems and and you hatreds toward them to not see the bigger picture. Barbe maybe made a mistake, guess shes is allowed. Your obsession is so non productive, but I get see you get a high from it. Keep bashing Izzy, Sue, Pure, it is is really getting you somewhere. Oh, while you do that, WWASPS has about 20 new programs now, and how many new marketing agencies? :idea: :oops:
-
No one is obsessed or gets a high from pointing out that Izzy, CAICA supports Sue Scheff /PURE who refers children to abusive programs for money.
That is one of the main purposes of fornits, to make the public aware of abusive programs, and people who support abusive programs.
One would THINK that would be the main purpose of anyone calliing themself an ADVOCATE--to warn the public against anyone who sells children into abusive programs for financial gain.
People who read/post on fornits are very concerned and informed about WWASP, and do not need the likes of YOU to keep us so informed, thank you very much.
-
I'm curious as to what those 20 new programs are. Links please?
-
Just a point of clarification. Two kids died in OB
Dillon Peak, 14, at Peace River Outward Bound Camp Florida
Elisa Santry, 16, at Outward Bound Wilderness Utah
Peak was not voluntary, Santry was.
I'd still be curious to know who sold Santry on the idea that attending OB would help her overcome her shyness and build relationships. In fact, she was "bullied" by other participants.
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... try#208394 (http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php?p=208394&highlight=santry#208394)
Dave Buschow, 29, at Boulder Outdoor Survival School was also voluntary, but was denied adequate food and water as part of the "survival training".
In addition to Santry and Buschow, there was another death the same day in S Dakota where temps were 100+. An adult, not enrolled in any program or school.
In southwestern South Dakota, a woman hiking on a short but steep Badlands trail died Sunday, when the temperature was well over 100 degrees.
Other hikers found the body of Joan Kovach, 52, of Canfield, Ohio, Chief Ranger Mark Gorman said.
``Where she eventually gave in, her water bottles were empty and unfortunately she just did not have enough water for the conditions,'' Gorman said. He said people hiking in the park during extreme heat should carry at least a gallon of water.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/stor ... 54,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-5962354,00.html)
http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regi ... 546192.php (http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regional/368162412546192.php)
-
Seems Outward Bound doesn't fall under the Utah's regulations that kids can't hike in temps over 110 or alone because they are voluntary. so voluntary isn't always good, especially not in this situation.
the bottom line that ppl don't get here is that what you do is getting old. you really don't have your facts straight and you twist and turn the truth so as to mislead ppl. it will all come out in the end. in the meantime there are tons of wwasp programs opening just maybe not listed under wwasp. but it appears lichfiled is stil behind them all.
ivy ridge supposedly withdrew from being part of wwasp so did spring creek. luckily the new $100 MILLION lawuit includes Lichfield. none of them want to look lliek they are part of wwasp but there is plenty of evidence out there that shows they are.
as everyone sits here pissing and moaning about Scheff and the tiny whitmore which is closed wwasp continued to grow. that's where ppl need to start putting their focus and attnetion. they're not the only ones. ther are other huge corproations jumpin on the bandwagon becuase they see the money to be made in the troubled teen and child industry.
And about Barbe - she isn't responsible for killing those two kids any more than Scheff is responsible what happened at the Whtimore - and like i said the truth will come out i'm sure during the trial.
rmemeber no matter how much we don't want programs and kids sent to programs its not real to htink they will all be shut down so we'd better figure out a way to get a better system in place and alert parents to be careful where ther kids go. they do have a say when their kid gets in trouble and is in the system. usually. so they should do theyr homewrok.
and ya other ppl died in utah from heat - so what - elisa shoudl have been supervised and not left alone for 10 hours to die in the heat. dillon should have been given antibiotics when they knew he had strep throat instead of throwing him back in his tent. they should have notified his mom. elisa's mom was talked into sending her there by some counselor who was working on the scholarship. who knows why they thought it would help her shyness but from what i read it was elisa who thought it woudl so that must be how the program is being sold to them.
Outward bound was very negligent in both Dillon's and Elisa's deaths.
-
smells like wwasp
http://www.troubledteenprograms.org/tro ... -programs/ (http://www.troubledteenprograms.org/troubled-teen-programs/)
-
Deborah, it was Summer Search who awarded the scholarship to Elisa Santry. Here is a link to their org. which apparently partners with schools in certain parts of the country like Elisa's in Boston.
http://www.summersearch.org/s.php (http://www.summersearch.org/s.php)
The program where Dillon Peak died is for low risk adjudicated youth. It is part of the Florida Department of Juvenile Justice. It is not a volunteer adventure program, you are correct. He was placed there by the court. Autopsy reports are still pending but there is considerable controversy surrounding who is at fault for his death (OB for not providing better care or the hospital who treated him for strep throat and released him). His family doctors believe he died as a result of sustaining a rare type of encephalitis on top of the strep throat.
http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive2/ ... 06&story=t (http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive2/062506/tp2ch5.htm?date=062506&story=t)
-
Sue Scheff does hold a great amount of responsibilty to the children abused at Whitmore Academy:
Sue Scheff/PURE continued to refer children to Whitmore Academy AFTER the investigation of child abuse against the Sudweeks began in November 2004.
Sue Scheff continued to support the Sudweeks after Cheryl Sudweeks was CHARGED with criminal child abuse.
The poster may consider Whitmore to be "tiny" but the 4 children Cherly Sudweeks is charged with abusing, and who are facing a criminal trial may disagree.
-
Seems Outward Bound doesn't fall under the Utah's regulations that kids can't hike in temps over 110 or alone because they are voluntary. so voluntary isn't always good, especially not in this situation.
the bottom line that ppl don't get here is that what you do is getting old. you really don't have your facts straight and you twist and turn the truth so as to mislead ppl. it will all come out in the end. in the meantime there are tons of wwasp programs opening just maybe not listed under wwasp. but it appears lichfiled is stil behind them all.
ivy ridge supposedly withdrew from being part of wwasp so did spring creek. luckily the new $100 MILLION lawuit includes Lichfield. none of them want to look lliek they are part of wwasp but there is plenty of evidence out there that shows they are.
as everyone sits here pissing and moaning about Scheff and the tiny whitmore which is closed wwasp continued to grow. that's where ppl need to start putting their focus and attnetion. they're not the only ones. ther are other huge corproations jumpin on the bandwagon becuase they see the money to be made in the troubled teen and child industry.
And about Barbe - she isn't responsible for killing those two kids any more than Scheff is responsible what happened at the Whtimore - and like i said the truth will come out i'm sure during the trial.
rmemeber no matter how much we don't want programs and kids sent to programs its not real to htink they will all be shut down so we'd better figure out a way to get a better system in place and alert parents to be careful where ther kids go. they do have a say when their kid gets in trouble and is in the system. usually. so they should do theyr homewrok.
and ya other ppl died in utah from heat - so what - elisa shoudl have been supervised and not left alone for 10 hours to die in the heat. dillon should have been given antibiotics when they knew he had strep throat instead of throwing him back in his tent. they should have notified his mom. elisa's mom was talked into sending her there by some counselor who was working on the scholarship. who knows why they thought it would help her shyness but from what i read it was elisa who thought it woudl so that must be how the program is being sold to them.
Outward bound was very negligent in both Dillon's and Elisa's deaths.
Like someone asked before, why is it okay for any kid to be abused or parents defrauded? So what if Whitmore isn't as big as WWASPS. That's not the issue. They had 40 something kids, didn't they? Many of whom were referred for profit by PURE? Parents have alleged the Whitmore program sold to them was not the program they got. Just like WWASPS parents. Also, what about the allegations that PURE continued to refer to Whitmore during the criminal investigation? Is that true? If so, why? Doesn't it make more sense to err on the side of caution? Put referrals on hold until the matter was resolved one way or another?
Your post doesn't make a whole lot of sense in light of these issues.
-
***Seems Outward Bound doesn't fall under the Utah's regulations that kids can't hike in temps over 110 or alone because they are voluntary. so voluntary isn't always good, especially not in this situation.
I agree. And if you had read my posts in the other thread you?d know that. Further, my mention of other deaths was not intended to excuse what happened to Santry and Peak. Both deaths were avoidable, imo. You?re making some wrong assumptions if your comments were directed to me.
***you really don't have your facts straight and you twist and turn the truth so as to mislead ppl.
Who and what, specifically are you referring to?
Suggesting that people drop everything and put their entire focus on WWASPS is about as realistic as believing that the industry will be shut down or that Federal regulations will ensure that kids in programs will not continue to be abused, drugged, or killed. I understand your urgency, but people will focus on what is most important to them at any given moment.
BTW, ?everyone? is not sitting her pissing and moaning about Scheff. Direct your comments to those who you feel are.
What are you doing to stop WWASPS? What might a ?system to alert parents? look like? Just curious about what scathingly brilliant actions you think others should be taking.
-
To add some perspective here, it seems to me the risk in any kind of outdoor activity must be taken into account by children and adults who participate in them. No organization is immune to accidents caused by human error or negligence. Does that mean we should ban them? Get rid of the Boy and Girl Scouts? Outward Bound? How about Catherine Freer Wilderness? A boy died there after a tree branch fell on him. Ruled an accident but common sense seems to dictate you don't set up a tent under a big tree covered with SNOW. CFW is touted as one of the safest wilderenss therapy programs and plenty of ed cons refer parents to them I would imagine. A young girl also died in one of their programs, Erica Harvey. Forced wilderness therapy programs are a bad idea, IMO. Kids have no options in the middle of nowhere and when they have died, no one is ever held accountable, except in civil court. The penalities just aren't severe enough, IMO.
Out of curiousity, I searched for any reports of fatalities and serious injuries in Boy Scout programs. Not sure about other camps, or OB, but I think I did read somewhere they had never had a child die from heat stroke or dehydration in 45 years. Well, there is always a first time and tragically, it looks like that may be what happened with Elisa Santry.
Boy ScoutsYour search for ACCIDENTS AND SAFETY in Boy Scouts returned 10 articles
ARTICLES ABOUT THE BOY SCOUTS
Page: 1 Newest First | Oldest First | Closest Match 4 Scouting Deaths Are Ruled Accident
RICHMOND, Va., Jan. 7 (AP) - The electrocution deaths of four Boy Scout leaders at the National Scout Jamboree last summer were found to be accidental, an Army spokesman said Friday.
January 8, 2006 News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA Questions Remain as Scouts Try to Deal With Four Deaths
By FELICITY BARRINGER
Officials in Virginia began investigating how electricity from a live power line killed four leaders of a Boy Scout troop.
July 27, 2005 U.S. News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: ELECTRIC LIGHT AND POWER, ELECTROCUTIONS, BUSH, GEORGE W, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, VIRGINIA, FORT ASHBY (W VA), WASHINGTON (STATE), ALASKA Electrical Accident Kills 4 Boy Scout Leaders in Virginia
By MICHELLE O'DONNELL; MICHELLE O'DONNELL REPORTED FROM NEW YORK FOR THIS ARTICLE, and LISA BACON FROM FORT A.P. HILL, VA.
Four volunteer Boy Scout leaders from Alaska were accidentally electrocuted as they set up camp on the first day of the scouts' national jamboree.
July 26, 2005 U.S. News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: FORT A P HILL (VA), ELECTROCUTIONS, VIRGINIA, ALASKA Bad Weather Delays Search For Boy Scout
By ANN FARMER
The search for the body of a Boy Scout from Staten Island who fell off a boat during a whale-watching expedition off Cape May, N.J., was postponed yesterday after eight-foot swells made conditions dangerous, officials said.
May 2, 2005 New York and Region News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: RESCUES, WHALES AND WHALING, CHILDREN AND YOUTH, BOATS AND BOATING, JOHS, NICHOLAS, CAPE MAY POINT (NJ), NEW JERSEY, STATEN ISLAND (NYC) METRO NEWS BRIEFS: NEW YORK; Boy Scout Is Wounded On a Camping Trip
Stephen Schuster, 13-year-old Boy Scout, is struck in side by stray bullet while on weekend camping trip in Old Bethpage Restoration Village Park on Long Island; police speculate that bullet came from nearby rifle range
May 4, 1998 New York and Region News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: FIREARMS, SCHUSTER, STEPHEN, OLD BETHPAGE RESTORATION VILLAGE PARK EARNING IT;Doing Good May Be No Shield When Bad Happens
By DEBRA NUSSBAUM
IN Richmond, a man who was a volunteer with the Red Cross drove a woman to a medical appointment. In Oregon, two men accompanied a Boy Scout troop on a camping trip. Though the three men were unpaid workers, giving their time for what they considered good causes, they were all eventually sued after someone in their care was injured in an accident. The suit against the Red Cross volunteer was dismissed. But a jury in Portland, Ore., ruled that the Scout leaders, Howard J. Ryburn and Craig A. Nordling, were negligent when a boy was paralyzed during a touch football game on the 1991 camping trip, and the two men were hit with a $7 million judgment in 1994. Though the Boy Scouts and its insurance paid the judgment and the legal costs for both men, Mr. Ryburn, who is 28, said he would not be a volunteer for a while.
May 19, 1996 Business News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: SUITS AND LITIGATION, VOLUNTEERS, NORDLING, CRAIG A, RYBURN, HOWARD J, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICABear Mauls 2 More Scouts
AP
Officials at a Boy Scout ranch are tightening security after five bear attacks in two weeks, including weekend incidents in which two boys were mauled. In the latest incidents, 14-year-old Kevin Unruh of Salina, Kan., and Joey McKinney, 13, of Danville, Ark., were attacked by a black bear early Sunday while camping seven miles from the headquarters of the Philmont Scout Ranch, a 215-square-mile Boy Scout camp that draws scouts from around the country. Officials killed the bear.
July 30, 1986 U.S. News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: BEARS, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, CIMARRON (NM)Sourly, the Poles Offer Blankets to New York
AP
Poland, irked that an American donation of powdered milk carries the condition that it must be distributed by non-Government agencies, said today that it would give 5,000 blankets and sleeping bags to the homeless of New York City - and insist on the same condition. In response, Mayor Koch said blankets and sleeping bags were not needed, especially to make a political point, and suggested they be donated to the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts instead. Jerzy Urban, the Polish Government's chief spokesman, said Poland would require that the blankets be distributed by private charities rather than by American Government officials.
May 14, 1986 World News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: SLEEPING BAGS, RADIATION, GIFTS, ATOMIC ENERGY, MILK, CHERNOBYL NUCLEAR POWER PLANT (USSR), DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES, FIRES AND FIREMEN, HOMELESS PERSONS, EXPLOSIONS, POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT, GRAPHITE, ELECTRIC LIGHT AND POWER, BLANKETS, FOOD CONTAMINATION AND POISONING, KOCH, EDWARD I, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, GIRL SCOUTS, NEW YORK CITYHiking Scout Falls to Death
UPI
Henry J. Herrman, a 16-year-old Boy Scout from Red Lion, Pa., slipped on a ledge while hiking on the Philmont Scout Ranch and fell 70 feet to his death, officials said.
July 1, 1985 U.S. News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: HERRMAN, HENRY J, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, PENNSYLVANIA
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference ... atch=exact (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/b/boy_scouts/index.html?query=ACCIDENTS%20AND%20SAFETY&field=des&match=exact)
-
More Recent:
Bear killed after biting Boy Scout in Utah scout camp
By The Associated Press - 07/22/06
SPRINGVILLE, Utah (AP) ? A black bear that bit the arm of a sleeping Boy Scout through the wall of his tent was killed when it returned to the camp later in the day and showed no sign of fear of humans, authorities say.
Colton Stewart, 14, of Spanish Fork was awakened early Wednesday at the Adventure Park Scout Camp near Springville in central Utah by a burning sensation in his upper arm.
He realized that burning was a black bear slowly biting down on his arm through the tent. He pulled away and heard the bear run through the brush and into the night.
??It wasn?t biting viciously. They put their mouth on things to see what they taste like,?? said Anis Aoude, regional wildlife manager for the state Division of Wildlife Resources. ??In this case there just happened to be a kid?s arm on the other side of the tent.??
The bite was not serious and did not require medical attention. However, camp officials notified the state, which sent a game warden to the scene.
That evening, as barbecued ribs were being prepared for the 90 Scouts, the 2- to 3-year-old female bear wandered back into the area, DWR Central Region Supervisor John Fairchild said.
??It wasn?t afraid of anybody,?? Fairchild said. ??It paralleled the camp, and the conservation officer waited for the bear to get away from the people in a safe area before he shot it. ...
??We had to put the bear down because it lost its fear of humans and has become habituated to eating human food,?? Aoude said.
Fairchild said the officer assembled the Scouts after the incident and explained why the animal had to be killed.
---------------
Jeez, did they have to kill the bear so we, mankind, could take over their natural habitat? Drugging kids into forced compliance is bad enough but what does this say about a society that socializes bears and then kills them when they wander into our "society"?
-
Anyway you cut it, voluntary is still a hell of a lot better than being abducted and taken to one of these wilderness therapy cash cow camps in handcuffs and then forced to hike your way to hell and back as a condition for reclaiming your liberty --- and um, your parents approval and love.
The Brat Camp series proved that. And how are those kids doing by the way? Did the therapy in the woods work? Personally I thought those Brat Camp therapists were obnoxious as hell. Arrogant and Intolerant. Anti-Teen profiteers.
-
Nah, can't compare boy scouts with outward bound. good try though. thing is outward bound has programs for kids who are locked up just like any of the programs you peple here are so against.
i think it's time people admit Barbe Stamps did not do her homework about OUtward Bound because if she did to her homework she would have known they put kids in programs against their will and that there were problems in their wilderness programs.
Now two kids are dead after she referred to that place. Those deaths were both from negligence. One boy died because he did not get the rigth medical treatment and he was in a program because some state didn't have programs to help him. So Outward Bound has contracted iwht some states and has joined in the RTC for youth . They are proving to be just as bad, if not worse.
Then Elisa died because they did not use good judgment. she sai dshe was sick in the morning so they as the adults should not let her hike in 100 degree weather by herself. Maybe these progrmas shoul dread the regulations in th estates where they are taking the kids. Utah has a good reason for having a regulation in place that does not allow kids to hike in over 90 degree weather and no hiker to be alone. THen, once they even reaslized she was missing they spent ano ther 5 hours until 11 at night (it's all on caica's website, the made a page for her) looking for her before calling for help. THat sounds crazy. They found her dead. THen they called for help. If the did it sooner she might still be alive. I don't konw that. No one does but we know there is a chance she woudl be alive.
THe point is your fingerpointing is old and needs to stop. you people amaze more than me by trhying to justify this fo ryour pal Barbe. THis webstie is annoying and I don' t come here often. Neither do a lot of other people who got tired of it.
-
I meant 110 degree weather
-
Fuck off, Sue.
-
::bwahaha::
-
Nope, can assure you that wasn't Sue, I supose you mean Sue schiff. There are others who feel the same way you should undersatnd that there are poeple who think what you do here is wrong
-
:wstupid: ::crybaby::
-
the milk gargling name seems very disrespectful sinde a little girl died. i don't think you people really get it. not sure why some of us ever bother to try. not worth the time or th eenergy relaly
-
Post, then drink!
-
Nope, can assure you that wasn't Sue, I supose you mean Sue schiff. There are others who feel the same way you should undersatnd that there are poeple who think what you do here is wrong
Please explain that. What do we do here that's wrong?
-
the milk gargling name seems very disrespectful sinde a little girl died.
:roll: You really are dense aren't you?
i don't think you people really get it. not sure why some of us ever bother to try. not worth the time or th eenergy relaly
Get what?
-
This thread is a perect example of why the troubled teen industry is kicking our arses. We're too busy backstabbing and pointscoring to do anything useful.
fucking losers.
-
last post--truth spoken
-
sorry, guest post was me.
Should've logged in.
-
This thread is a perect example of why the troubled teen industry is kicking our arses. We're too busy backstabbing and pointscoring to do anything useful.
fucking losers.
:-? :roll:
-
It's nice to see others are finally realizing this
-
WTF
http://www.troubledteensprograms.com/pr ... og_id=2352 (http://www.troubledteensprograms.com/programs/programs.php?prog_id=2352)
Thompson Island Outward Bound
Brad M. Reedy, Ph.D., L.M.F.T.
Phone: (435)738-2040
Fax: (435)738-2046
Email: brad@snwp.com
Brad began his studies at Brigham Young University where he graduated Magna Cum Laude with a B.S. in Family Science. Next, he attended Loma Linda University where he received an M.S. in Marriage and Family Therapy. He returned to B.Y.U. and completed his Ph.D. in Marriage and Family Therapy. During school, Brad?s clinical experience included work with sexually abused children, domestically violent offenders, and adults/adolescents with Substance Abuse and Dependence.
Research and clinical interests include treatment with sexual abuse victims, family trauma and associated processes, chemical dependence, personality disorders, sexual perpetrators, and developmental psychology. Brad works with a variety of populations which often include students with dual diagnoses or gifted I.Q.?s.
In the public sector, Brad worked with young victims of physical and sexual abuse at Loma Linda University Hospital, domestic violence victims and perpetrators at Riverside Family Service Agency, and sexual perpetrators at Center for Family Development. In private practice, Brad has also worked with individuals and families with eating disorders and other addictions. Brad later worked as a field therapist and Clinical Director with Aspen Achievement Academy and Aspen Ranch.
Brad currently serves as one of the principal partners at Second Nature Wilderness Program and is the supervisor for the Clinical and Admissions Departments.
Born and raised in Orange County, California, the middle of three boys, Brad was raised by his mother. He grew up surfing, listening to Bob Dylan, and causing his mom a great deal of grief. Brad is married and has three children. He enjoys golf, wakeboarding, snow skiing, motocross, and running. He is an avid fan of the Los Angeles Lakers and the Anaheim Angels and can be easily engaged in a debate on any sports-related topic.
Dude, that guy was my best friend in treatment's counselor when she was at Second Nature. Wierd.
-
Teen Advocates USA
Social Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: 2005-07-20
User Profile Subject : RE: Brat Camp
Posted : 2005-07-30 10:08 PM
Post #5790 - In reply to #5788
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally written by AtomicAnt on 2005-07-31 1:43 PM
Rusty,
I'm not willing to dismiss your anecdotal evidence as easily as others. If your son and other relatives had positive experiences then that is great. I'm really glad it worked out.
For me, the coercive part is the most objectionable aspect. It's the concept that a group of people can force an ideology onto someone against their will. In the case of Brat Camp, it is difficult to understand my objections. Who can object to turning drug abusing teens into well behaving teens? But did you know that some of these camps are designed to force a 'Christian' perspective on the students? Did you know there are camps that are designed to force gay kids into being straight? These kids are also in these camps against their will (parents can do this in the USA).
I watch the show and cringe thinking of how I would have reacted to these counselors and this form of therapy. My core values are not popular and often misunderstood. I formed these values during childhood. They are not my parents values. Had I been sent to one of these camps and forced to act in a certain way to progress through the program, knowing that if I did not give in, the chances would be good that I would end up in one of these oppressive boarding schools, I honestly think I would become either homicidal or suicidal; the tragic result of which the program would call my 'choice.' To me, this process is too close to 'A Clockwork Orange' and too Orwellian in nature to be ethical.
Even the language used. "We are giving these kids the opportunity to change." That implies choice where there really is not choice. The student must accept the program, period. The program will not the student go until he submits. That is coercion, which to me is intrinsically wrong. The ends does not justify the means.
Personally? I think parents would be very wise to steer clear of any so-called troubled teen program that equates CHANGE with INDOCTRINATION.
Second, as an outdoor enthusiast myself, I have no problem with kids learning wilderness survival skills such as those taught by the OUTWARD BOUND programs.
In fact, my best advice to parents considering sending their child to a wilderness therapy camp is to look into the INDIVIDUAL and FAMILY wilderness adventure programs and experiential training offered by Outward Bound. Strictly VOLUNTARY, these programs have an excellent safety record and are reasonably priced.
http://www.outwardbound.com (http://www.outwardbound.com)
Barbe
TAUSA
[Edited by Teen Advocates USA on 2005-07-30 10:11 PM]
-
http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/threa ... &start=401 (http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/thread-view.asp?threadid=225&start=401)
Anybody bother to read the other posts? Might help to put things in perspective. These were parents boasting about how forced wilderness therapy programs savedtheirkidsfromdeathorjail and in that context, the recommendation to those parents to consider alternatives like Outward Bound doesn't look like a referral for profit as you are trying to allege.
Also, if any of you read Help At Any Cost, you may be interested in the author's recommendation that Outward Bound might be appropriate for kids who have an interest in nature and want to participate in one of their programs. It's in the back of the book. Would you consider that a referral for profit or an alternative resource?
There is a big difference between wilderness therapy programs like Brat Camps and Outward Bound. Nobody was recommending the OBW programs for troubled teens, but even there, they don't take kids who won't go voluntarily so that eliminates teens taken by forced escort. All outdoor programs have risk. In this case it sounds like the staff is to blame and that OBW will be held accountable.
If you're really that worried about it write to the people who offer scholarships to high school students like Elisa. She was awarded a scholarship to attend the program along with hundreds of other kids in certain parts of the country who also attended one of their programs.
http://www.summersearch.org/s.php (http://www.summersearch.org/s.php)
-
Aren't you worried about it? Why haven't people taken this very seriously, two kids died in one program due to negligence, all within a month. Seems like something you'd want to address.
-
What do you suggest we do? Outward Bound will be held accountable for that girl's death in Utah. That's obvious and what one would expect in light of the circumstances. The other one is a different kind of program all together. It's for juveniles in trouble with the law. That program contracts with Florida's juvenile justice system. It's not a voluntary adventure type program. Kids are court ordered there instead of a jail, I gather. If you read the news stories, they aren't sure who is to blame, the program or the hospital who examined the boy and is the one who released the kid back to the program. If they are to blame, Outward Bound will have to accept responsibility and make changes or get out business. Seems pretty straight forward to me. They are ONE of many companies contracting with the state of Florida juvenile justice system. What else would you suggest anyone do? There is an advocacy group in Florida who is active in pushing for reforms in juvenile justice system. Why don't you join that group and help them? Or Write to Summer Search as suggested? In fairness, it's easy to point the finger at others but a lot of good that does since it's these companies who are responsible. Fornits is a good place for parents to get info. so in that sense, people are doing something. There are many many subjects here that are valuable to building parent awarenesss. If you don't think that's important, well, you are free to pursue other options. Have you written to the outfit where that adult died? Its a company in Colorado called BOULDER OUTDOOR SURVIVAL SCHOOL. He died the same week the girl did. Point is these are two different companies, 2 different programs (in case you didn't realize that). He was a grown man but no excuse for dying because they didn't give him access to water in the Utah desert. It's good you are concerned but not real productive blaming people who had nothing to do with any of these deaths. The girl was referred by her own high school and Summer Search. The boy was placed by the Florida Juvenile Justice system. The 29 year old man signed up for the course offered by Boulder Outdoor Survival School on his own.
-
The Teen Torture industry isn't kicking our asses, it's just a Hydra -you lop off one head and go for another, the old one pops back up.This is still grassroots. There will always be gullible, ineffective parents who'll send little Alphonse off for "Tough Love" to save him from cigarettes and his passion for greased midget porn.
One good thing...I know one abusive shithole facility in Tennesee is getting an unnanounced inspection as I write this. I know, because I called the State gov't team that's administering what I pray is a brutal, loveless cavity search on every psycho-staffer and Sado-counselor who's ever assaulted a teen. The dep't head called and said they had started, and I'm hoping to talk to a patient there I've been missing. Those uneducated, abusive fat bastards thought they were above the law, now they're nose-deep in shit .
-
Good for you, Zen!
-
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=259462#259462 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=259462#259462)
-
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adven ... bound.html (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/news/outward-bound.html)
After heatstroke claims a student in Utah's Canyon Country, the 46-year-old institution faces America's shrinking tolerance for risk.
THE temperature had hit 104ºF (40ºC), yet the students continued down Lockhart Canyon to the Colorado River, where boats waited to take them into the cool of the water. To Elisa Santry, who had rarely been west of Boston and never known wilderness, Lockhart Canyon must have seemed a strange place.
The walls were mudstone, formed in the Triassic period, the soft kind of rock that erodes into drips, blobs, grotesqueries: Here were ogling beasts the color of red wine or old blood, and troglodytic dwarves, and men with no necks, necks with no heads. The heat was nauseating, disorienting. It sucked at the resolve of 16-year-old Elisa, who was fair-skinned and thin-armed. The pack she wore, at 40-some pounds (18-some kilograms), was nearly half her body weight, but according to her letters, she was proud of carrying it. By dusk that day, July 16, 2006, Elisa was supposed to have completed the 16th day of a 22-day trek across the wilds of southern Utah as a student with Outward Bound, the premier wilderness school for young Americans. She was proud of that too.
Around 6 p.m., as the other students in her group made their way under the fading sun, instructors noticed that Elisa had disappeared. A search ensued, and for five hours the five remaining students and several instructors combed the canyon, donning headlamps after darkness fell. Finally, around 11 p.m., the instructors found Elisa facedown not far off the trail, her pack still shouldered. She was a half mile (one kilometer) from the river.
Elisa was the first Outward Bound student to die in almost a decade and the 24th fatality in the nonprofit's 46-year history in the U.S. (most of those deaths occurred prior to 1980). The organization's response was a near-total silence about the specifics of the case, but a small group of insiders broke form and spoke out, warning that Outward Bound's safety standards had fallen disturbingly low. When I contacted Elisa's mother, Elisa Woods, a few days after her daughter was found, she was outraged. "They told me my daughter was going to be well supervised . . . and she obviously wasn't," she said. "They killed my baby." The organization allowed no such notion: The wilderness killed Elisa Santry, spokespeople for the group told me, and, as a senior instructor in Moab put it, that is sometimes to be expected—a hard-line ethic perhaps, but one that Outward Bound says will not change as a result of Elisa's death.
Named after the nautical term for a boat leaving its pier, Outward Bound was the brainchild of a progressive German educator named Kurt Hahn, who wanted to raise survival rates among sailors at sea during World War II. His hope was to toughen young men's resolve through teamwork and compassion and a sense of shared mission. When Outward Bound came to the U.S., in 1961, its curriculum was adjusted to meet the American landscape head on: Every student in Elisa's nine-person "patrol," for example, would summit a high peak, rappel a cliff, climb a rock face, live for weeks in the wilderness, and, as the climax of their experience, sojourn alone for two days in the rite of passage known as the "solo."
The success of Outward Bound in the U.S. spawned scores of imitators (I attended an Outward Bound type program when I was 14), and it remains the ur-wilderness school, with more than 680,000 participants to date. Elisa, a gifted student from the Southie neighborhood in Boston, had won a scholarship from Summer Search, a national nonprofit, to attend one of Outward Bound's most popular programs, combining mountaineering, canyoneering, and rafting. Elisa was to hike and raft some 180 miles (290 kilometers) over three weeks, through alpine tundra and hardwood forests into the red-rock canyons and the rivers beyond.
Her mother objected, worrying for a city girl's safety in a desert 2,000 miles (3,219 kilometers) away. In a family of three boys, Elisa, who had blond hair and was born with a lazy left eye, was the only daughter and the youngest child. "My miracle baby," Elisa Woods said. "I spent ten weeks in the hospital with that baby. She wasn't supposed to make it." Elisa's oldest brother, Michael Woods, 32, was thrilled for his sister, whom he had taken hiking in the green hills outside Boston. Michael reassured his mother that Elisa would be in good hands. "My excitement for Elisa," he said, "was that she was going to have a truly wild experience in the American West."
They began the course in the La Sal Mountains east of Moab, nine teenagers and two instructors, dropped off by van at 8,000 feet (2,438 meters) in the aspen forests. Here there were black bears, rumors of cougars, and the sign of elk in the pine beds. A pounding rain and bleak thunderheads barred their way to the region's tallest peaks, so the group was forced to settle for a 11,600-footer (3,536-meter) they called "Mount Tapatío" (after a hot sauce they'd come to love).
According to a letter that instructor Rob Neilson, 26, later wrote to her family, Elisa was intrigued by the tools of survival. She learned how to route-find, use a compass, read a topo, march by starlight—to lead and trust to be led. She liked knots: the trucker's hitch and clove hitch for lashing her tarp as shelter in lieu of a tent, the figure-eight follow-through and water knot for tying into a top rope. She learned how to jury-rig a harness out of webbing, how to attack a rock face, and how to belay. But as the students experienced true wilderness for the first time, the instructors also taught them to be wary of it. This was key to the lesson, according to Outward Bound: to watch out for the health of the group, to recognize the signs of hypothermia and dehydration and heat sickness.
The rigors of the expedition naturally wore on Elisa and her companions, enough that one of the girls quit on day four due to a stomach ailment. By day nine, one of the boys was forced to withdraw because of a nagging ankle injury. Another girl, a 17-year-old Californian named Karen, consistently lagged behind. For this, she was shunned by the four remaining boys with whom Elisa, on the other hand, had no trouble keeping pace. Karen was "not quite as intellectually and emotionally mature as the other students," Neilson wrote. Elisa remarked in her own letters that Karen had trouble tying shoelaces and sometimes sucked her thumb. Elisa took Karen under her wing "when no one else was willing to help," Neilson's letter said. "Elisa was always trying to coach [Karen] to do well, to be timely, and to work well with the group." She took weight from Karen's pack, helped her fold tarps, clean pots, tie knots. Perhaps she recognized in Karen something of her own experience, sensitized as she was to the condition of the outcast: As a child, Elisa was laughed at for her wandering eye and later underwent surgery to correct the condition.
If Elisa's letters home are to be believed, the group's overall dynamic was less than ideal. Weeks in dusty tents and around campfires with nine unwashed strangers either leads to group coherence—a sense of shared mission, a brotherhood, a sisterhood—or group dysfunction and the breaking apart into cliques. Elisa's patrol, it seems, quietly broke apart. The boys had too much "attitude" and seemed to share a contempt for the girls, according to Elisa in her letters home (Stan from Colorado "used to be nice"; John from Wisconsin had "his mood swings"). Elisa at the same time failed to bond with the other girls. "The girls hike really slow," she wrote. Tina from California is described as "soo mean and aggravating." As for Karen, she "always complains." "I complain also," Elisa wrote on the 11th day of the trip, "but try to stop."
By the 11th day, the kids had reason to complain. There was a heat wave across the Southwest, and in southern Utah the temperatures rose in tandem with the patrol's descent from the juniper forests into the canyons. In the fluted narrows and under the high rims of West Coyote Gulch, 17 miles (27 kilometers) south of Moab, the group settled in for the long loneliness of the solo. Elisa, per the Outward Bound tradition, was allowed only minimal food, water, a pen, a journal, a sleeping bag, and a sleeping pad—alone for two nights with her thoughts, the cliffs, the heat, the darkness. "She said that at night, solo was really hard," wrote Neilson. Of the many letters Elisa penned in this solitude, there was one that she was instructed to write to herself and not read until six months had passed—this was also tradition. The note was dated July 11, and, given that it was the last thing Elisa Santry ever wrote, her family would not share it.
On the morning of July 16, four days after her solo, Elisa didn't eat much—just some nuts and crackers, according to Outward Bound. It was probably the heat. That day was to be one of the patrol's most demanding and rewarding, a seven-mile traverse of Lockhart Canyon to rafts waiting at the Colorado River; the culmination of eight hard days in the aridness of the Canyonlands basin.
The hike down Lockhart would be completed as a group, but without instructors present, with only their maps, compasses, and wits. The route was a simple one, an old jeep road that followed the drainage of the canyon to the sun-smashed cottonwoods and stands of tamarisk along the river. Neilson, as lead instructor, would walk on ahead, while the second instructor, a woman who Outward Bound will only identify as Alex, would act as "sweeper," trailing the group far behind to ensure that there would be no stragglers. Neilson and Alex issued the standard protocol: The patrol was to stay together at all times. The kids were provided ample food and water. Neilson and Alex were also not the only adults in the area. Tina, who Elisa had found so intolerably "mean," had sprained her ankle on a rappel and had to be trucked out. To help with the evacuation, the organization's top man in Utah, Mike DeHoff, director of the Southwest Region Program, had piloted down the Colorado River by boat and was hiking up Lockhart Canyon.
By afternoon, however, the protocol in Elisa's patrol started to unravel. DeHoff, for his part, said he noticed nothing amiss when he passed by the group on his way up canyon. There were two girls remaining of the original four—Elisa and Karen—and four impatient boys. After DeHoff had passed, Elisa at one point started weeping, according to Karen, the only member of the group Elisa's family has been able to contact.
The Needles ranger station in nearby Canyonlands National Park marked a temperature of 104ºF (40ºC) that afternoon. In the furnace effect of the canyon, the temperature was likely closer to 110ºF (43ºC). The effort to walk under the roaring sun was apparently too much for Elisa. She'd eaten almost nothing all day. She asked to take a rest break. She then requested another. It was late afternoon, the crest of the day's heat. There were one and a quarter miles (two kilometers) to the respite at the river.
The four boys later told Outward Bound investigators that a group decision was made at 4:45—the patrol would disband. The boys headed out and left the two girls to be swept up by Alex in the rear.
Elisa and Karen proceeded for a short while. Then the story clouds up. According to Karen, who was the last person to see her alive, Elisa now opted to strike out down canyon alone. Alex says she found Karen around 5:15 p.m., wandering down the middle of the jeep road.
As for Elisa, we can only guess what happened. We know that she had enough food with her and that she started the day with two bottles of water. What is most perplexing is the route she chose after she left Karen. She abandoned the jeep road altogether and walked a quarter mile south into a side canyon. Was she lost? The jeep road and drainage is clearly blazed at that point in the canyon. Had she lost her ability to reason? Heat exhaustion can lead to disorientation; heatstroke guarantees it. Both conditions result from a rise in the body's core temperature, and both can strike even if a hiker is hydrated, though heatstroke is deadly. Elisa walked up the side canyon with its weird mudstone walls, the rocks too hot to touch. Then she fell to her knees and pitched forward onto her face. A trickle of blood ran from her mouth. There she died, probably within minutes. The medical examiner later ruled "probable heatstroke" as the cause of death.
A day later, on July 17, a 29-year-old man named David Buschow died, reportedly of dehydration and electrolyte imbalance, on a wilderness survival program in Utah run by the Boulder Outdoor Survival School, of Boulder, Colorado. The two fatalities, one right after the other, made national headlines, and in the Santry case led Utah officials to review Outward Bound. Utah regulations prohibit compulsory outdoor programs that treat delinquent or troubled individuals from hiking in temperatures above 90ºF (32ºC), but groups that run voluntary programs, such as Outward Bound, function beyond the state's purview. "We took another look at Outward Bound," says LJ Dustman, supervisor for the licensing of Utah's outdoor programs. "But by definition they operate outside of our jurisdiction."
Richard "Rocky" Grossack of Boston, one of the lawyers hired by Elisa's family, sees an avenue for litigation, despite the fact that students and their parents are required to sign an extensive release form. "My goal," Grossack says, "is to get the family money. Why were the campers hiking in those conditions when the regulations suggest that you shouldn't? Having a kid hike in 110-degree (43-degree Celsius) heat, in a canyon, with a backpack that's nearly half her weight, without appropriate supervision checking in on her is gross negligence—and by that I mean negligence that was disgusting." Mickey Freeman, president of Outward Bound Wilderness and its top official fielding press inquiries about the incident, counters that the organization has "been operating similar trips in the same area during the same time of year for about 25 years without a heat-related fatality or, to our knowledge, a serious heat-related incident." He later elaborated, saying, "Our instructors made the right decisions and acted within our policies and guidelines."
Still, investigators with the San Juan County sheriff's office, which has jurisdiction in the Santry case, say that Outward Bound "has been less than cooperative." At press time, the organization had refused to divulge to investigators the names of the other students and the instructors—the key witnesses to what really happened in Lockhart Canyon. Nor would Outward Bound share the results of their own internal probe with the sheriff's investigators or Elisa's family. The sheriff's office considered issuing subpoenas to Outward Bound in late 2006. As of mid-March 2007 the organization still had not disclosed the results of its February 12 internal investigation.
Nonetheless, John Read, the president of Outward Bound USA, says the incident has deeply impacted his organization. He now has a picture of Elisa Santry hanging in his office. "A day doesn't go by that we don't think about Elisa," Read wrote in an October 2006 email to Elisa's brother Michael Woods, who has spearheaded the family's own investigation. "We have remembered her and celebrated her life and grieved her loss in so many ways."
Yet avowed sorrow does not translate into an admission of wrongdoing, nor apparently will it catalyze sweeping change at Outward Bound. After the organization completed its internal investigation, Freeman insisted that the report, whose purpose "was not to assess whether anyone acted negligently or was at fault," recommended "that we reexamine our heat-related travel protocols." And even in regard to temperature limits for travel, Freeman noted, "we want to carefully balance setting absolute limits versus relying on instructor judgment."
This, according to former and current Outward Bound employees, may be flawed policy in light of current training procedures. A former high-level Outward Bound program director who asked to remain anonymous says that after the organization's Pacific Crest and Colorado Schools merged in 2003, its risk-management procedures were pushed to the margins. The staff from the Colorado School, which for years had a higher accident rate than other schools, according to the former director, assumed control of training at the new entity, now called Outward Bound Wilderness. "Instructors need to know how to corral students to a safe zone, how to manage big groups on a top rope, how to persevere in a state of trouble, how to assess equipment, terrain, weather," says the former director, who resigned in the wake of the merger. "These things seemed to be missing from Outward Bound Wilderness. There was no sense of mentorship. There was no interest in maintaining an institutional standard for the application of written support material such as course area guidebooks and instructor manuals. And there was a huge lack of assessment of instructors' competence."
The merger, according to some former employees, also depressed morale, spurring an exodus of senior field instructors and program directors, who were replaced by younger staff. "People just saw the quality deteriorate," says the former director. "I believe in Outward Bound. I was a student at 18 and it changed my life. Risk in nature is an incredible teacher—it teaches boundaries. But today Outward Bound isn't teaching boundaries. And the dangers have spiraled out of control."
In December 2006 Arthur M. Blank, chairman of the board of Outward Bound USA, announced plans to donate one million dollars to fund a professionalized training institute for field instructors. According to Outward Bound, plans for the institute were underway prior to Elisa's death, and the donation was unrelated to the incident. "This will help us build a deeper instructor bench," says Freeman. "We'll start to see the work this year."
Still, the question remains: Even with a renewed commitment to risk management, has Outward Bound's wilderness philosophy, a philosophy forged in the American wilds in the 1960s, fallen out of step with society and, in particular, the risk aversion of modern parents? A 1991 study found that the radius around the home where parents allowed nine-year-olds to wander had shrunk to one-ninth of what it had been in 1970. Fear of risk—and of litigation—drives suburban homeowners to abide by "covenants" that prohibit basketball in streets, marbles-play on sidewalks, and fort-building in nearby woods. In California, Girl Scouts are often restricted from climbing trees at camp. The notion that accidents happen—especially fatal ones—is simply at odds with what most parents today are willing to accept.
"This is much larger than Outward Bound; it's what is happening to us as a society," says Richard Louv, author of Last Child in the Woods. "For almost the entirety of human history, children spent most of their time either playing or working in nature." That era, says Louv, may be coming to an end in the U.S. For this reason alone, supporters argue, Americans need Outward Bound now more than ever.
Elisa's family could not agree less. They want to know why she died, and they have yet to receive a clear answer from the organization's executives. Though Freeman continues to insist that "Outward Bound's number one priority is safety," even current employees disagree. "Outward Bound doesn't have a culture of safety," says a veteran instructor. "The leadership of Outward Bound is not being held accountable. In turn, they aren't holding the program directors and instructors accountable." Elisa's brother Michael asks an anguished question in this regard: Where were the instructors when Elisa was dying in Lockhart Canyon?
-
This is criminal negligence by Outward Bound and the individual trip leaders who decided to take the group from the higher elevations to the desert floor in mid-July. Those who live in the desert southwest have a healthy respect for the extremes of this climate, as well as a basic understanding of how the temperature changes with elevation and how heat exhaustion can kill you no matter how much water you've drank.
I have no problem with voluntary wilderness adventures, but the organization and individuals leading these expeditions have an obligation to exercise reasonable precautions. The American southwestern deserts are quite unique and exploring them can be a mystical experience -- best done in the late Fall through early Spring. In the summertime, smart people only do this kind of outdoor exertion above 6 or 7 thousand feet, where the daytime temperatures aren't deadly. Outward Bound and it's staff know this -- or they damn well ought to know it.
-
Stupid that they had those kids out hiking in the middle of the day. They could have done the same seven mile trek in the early morning hours before the bulk of the heat hit. For sure they should have been doing regular hydration stops. Doesn't sound like that happened at all, and if anything the young lady was basically baked dry on her solo and progressively worn farther down each passing day until she simply collapsed.
-
This entire philosophy and industry is based on "making kids uncomfortable", of course some of them are going to get hurt or die.
-
true that.. sadly though.
-
This entire philosophy and industry is based on "making kids uncomfortable", of course some of them are going to get hurt or die.
The shame of it is outward Bound has a long standing history and reputation outside of the US in numerous countries which has nothing to do with this industry. Outward Bound Australia, for instance has family options as well as kids ones. While it is designed for those who like a challenge, it is not punitive necessarily.
The Model of outward bound which has been so shockingly bastardised by this industry has been used at some prestigous private schools like Gorunstound in scotland or Timbertop in Australia. Even the few programs here based on its model that do take delinquent or disadvantaged kids do not take anyone who does not want to go.
it is a real shame that Outward bound in the US seems to have allowed its standards to drop so much because it is a well regarded international organisation.
-
The shame of it is outward Bound has a long standing history and reputation outside of the US in numerous countries which has nothing to do with this industry. Outward Bound Australia, for instance has family options as well as kids ones. While it is designed for those who like a challenge, it is not punitive necessarily.
Outward Bound had that same reputation in the U.S., and maybe it still does in some circles -- and they still have adventure outings for families too.
it is a real shame that Outward bound in the US seems to have allowed its standards to drop so much because it is a well regarded international organisation.
I seem to recall that O.B. has leant (sold) its name to some state-run bootcamps in the U.S., but that's not what this incident was about. Remember, Elisa won this trip and was looking forward to it. It was supposed to be physically demanding, but safe. But the trip leaders should have known better than to do a desert hike on a summer afternoon.
That was me earlier, talking about the southwest deserts and elevation (too lazy to login). In this part of the country, anyone who does any remote outdoor activity -- camping, riding dirt bikes, etc. -- knows the dangers of the summer temperatures in the desert, and also knows where to go -- higher elevation -- to enjoy the wild outdoors without risking heat stroke. A "professional" leading something like an O.B. expedition should know this a lot better than someone like me. There's no excuse for taking that kind of risk with someone else's life -- or even your own. If you want to see the desert instead of the mountains, you do it in the colder months. period.
Oz girl, I don't know how much you have explored the wilder parts of Oz, but I think Aussies have a similar situation and a similar respect for climate as we southwestern Americans. You wouldn't do a hiking trip in north Western Australia in summertime, but if you really want to explore that place, there's a time that's appropriate. I suspect that even Marble Bar is quite nice right about now, in Oz wintertime.
-
Oz girl, I don't know how much you have explored the wilder parts of Oz, but I think Aussies have a similar situation and a similar respect for climate as we southwestern Americans. You wouldn't do a hiking trip in north Western Australia in summertime, but if you really want to explore that place, there's a time that's appropriate. I suspect that even Marble Bar is quite nice right about now, in Oz wintertime.
Absolutely not. Even in winter you dont go unless it is with a really highly trained instrucotr because it still gets hot as hell. particularly in places like marble Bar and the Pilbara. The other danger is falling down a mine shaft as most Oz mining is in the middle of nowhere. many an English or German backpacker has tragically lost their life and litereally just disappeared because they dont have an appreciation of how dangerous the Oz desert is and take ill equipt bomb cars which break down ffar from any help. The other reason whyt ppl exerciase caution here is because in areas with a lot of scrub and trees there is a strong risk of bushfire in the summer.
In summermost of this sort of thing begins in the early morning. this way you are done by about 11 in the morning and spend the danger part of the day safely in the shade. Dusk hikes are popular for the same reason.
Given that the difference between here and the Us is that people actually live in outback american states like Utah, arizona and new mexico, it always astounds me that this industry seems to be so cavilier about the risks. Afterall if a reasonable amount of ppl live with desert heat you would think there would be more respect for such a formidable landscape. Perhaps familiarity breeds contempt
-
I remember when Outward Bound was still in its early days in this country, and it was a whole different ballgame than it apparently is now. Safety precautions and safety instructions to the participants were strongly stressed, to the point of almost being a pain in the neck. Part of enjoying and respecting that great wilderness lay in respecting the inherent dangers certain situations entailed and proceeding accordingly. It was called "being smart."
Nowadays it appears you get a lot of personalities involved who are attracted to this sort of thing for all the wrong reasons. It seems like it is now a predominantly macho thing to brave the elements and take foolish risks; to do any less would risk one being called a wuss in certain circles. All very well for a grown individual to make such choices for themselves; not so when it comes to making such choices for less experienced individuals one is entrusted with, let alone minors.
And then you have the involvement of the troubled teen industry. Braving the big bad outdoors becomes an obligatory part of "character development," not to mention a punitive one in certain programs.
I think Outward Bound's problem is primarily two-fold. First, the organization in this country has changed hands, spread itself out and too thin, and has made some regrettable choices which have all resulted in a tremendous decrease in standards. Second, who do you hire to head these expeditions and what is their training, background? You no longer have the disciplined purists for whom safety comes first; you have a very mixed bag of applicants, some of whom trained under fanatics, who--as I mentioned above--have all the wrong reasons for going into this business.
-
Given that the difference between here and the Us is that people actually live in outback american states like Utah, arizona and new mexico, it always astounds me that this industry seems to be so cavilier about the risks. Afterall if a reasonable amount of ppl live with desert heat you would think there would be more respect for such a formidable landscape. Perhaps familiarity breeds contempt
The similarities might be greater than the differences. In AZ and UT, for example, the vast majority of the population lives in just a couple of larger cities & towns -- most of the land area of those states is uninhabited. Sadly, that makes them good candidates for programs -- from the program owner's viewpoint.
I would hope that in the case of this Outward Bound tragedy, that it was ignorance rather than "familiarity breeds contempt." It's really unbelievable that if this had been a wilderness therapy program instead of a voluntary adventure, the Utah regulations would've probhibited a hike at those temperatures. Some of the wilderness programs in these extreme climates even have a summer range in the mountains and a winter range in the deserts, specifically so they can operate year-round without subjecting anyone (including their field staff employees) to the worst extremes of the climate.
One would expect that a voluntary adventure expedition would at least follow the same rules and take the same precautions as an involuntary "troubled teen" program. Had they done so, Elisa and the gentleman who also died in Utah that same month might both still be alive.
-
Even if the forced hike deaths cease altogether something need to be done about restraint deaths as well. They are both brutally and lonely ways to die.