Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 18, 2006, 06:03:26 PM
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I am considering sending my son to Abundant Life Academy. I am loking for peoples opinions and thoughts in regards to this program. Thanks in advance for your feedback.
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"Hey! I'm just a random person on the Internet. Hey look. a board filled with hundreds upon hundreds of topics and tens of thousands of posts detailing why it's a mistake to send my kid to religious fundamentalists in Utah.
Hey! I know what I'll do! I'll send my kid to a place run by religious fundamentalists in Utah! Hmm, maybe I should ask first?"
http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/lead ... ition.html (http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/leadpage/definition.html)
READ this crap. The pure sadism and concentrated evil shows up right through the monitor. Please do not tell us you're stupid enough to actually send your child to a place like this.
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Word choice helps us tell fact from fiction
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their website states
Jesus is the only answer for your troubled teen
I hope your kid is not jewish or muslim!
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I'd like to think the OP is fictional. (I'd like to think this whole business is fictional, actually.)
Three thousand, seven hundred and fifty dollars a month to keep your kid incarcerated in the name of Jesus?
I don't know how much you all pay, but I can get Jesus for free.
I really need to get in on this racket. Pay me three thousand bucks a month to take care of your kid.
Hell, if twenty of you do that, I'll pay for a mortgage on a mansion with the cash and everybody gets his own room and damn near all the material goods they could possibly need, because with sixty thousand fucking dollars a month there's little I can't do. I'll even throw in a "no child abuse" stipulation.
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http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ig&start=0 (http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php?t=7680&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=craig&start=0)
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ig&start=0 (http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php?t=6837&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=craig&start=0)
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ight=craig (http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php?t=5533&highlight=craig)
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Woops, forgot the best one. Dialogue with Craig Rogers.
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ig&start=0 (http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php?t=4819&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=craig&start=0)
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///their website states
Jesus is the only answer for your troubled teen
I hope your kid is not jewish or muslim!///
Well really - what chance is there a non Christian family would even consider ALA? About zero I would think.
What ever faults may be present at ALA, at least they aren't pretending to be something other than what they are.
For example, they aren't claming to be free of any religious focus - only to then use the teens as a captive mission field.
Before anyone jumps on me and chews me up - I know I know nothing about how ALA is operating these days. But the fact remains they were good to us. That's all.
Not saying this parent, or any parent, should use ALA, or any program. I'm only saying they were good to us when my son was there in 02 / 03.
I really don't have anything to add to the debate these days, as I am so out of touch with the current situation at ALA. I did want to comment on that one comment from Pls help tho; as it struck me as somewhat amusing - to think of a Jewish or Muslem mom or dad reading ALA's web site, and then somehow remaining ignorant of the fact it is an overtly Christian program. ;)
And as for Christians - we do believe Jesus is the answer.
Now - again - before you guys crucify me - I know some of the most horrible abuses in this industry take place in so called Christian programs. I find this appalling and outrageous and have been very clear on that fact many times. Please keep in mind, one may call themselves Christian, and be anything but.
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Buzzkill, you state that ALA 'was good to us." Exactly how many days did YOU spend in this program, HUH?
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What was the question?
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BuzzKIll here -
Do you imagian I have'nt talked a good deal with my son about ALA and his time there? If so, then your wrong.
Frankly - he had a lot of fun.
Things at ALA then were pretty relaxed and open. I talked to him almost daily - every other day anyway. I could call him and he could call me anytime for any reason. He held a job in town and managed to save a good deal of money. They went hiking and camping and snow boarding; on trips to San Fancisco and Disney world. They went to movies and ball games and generally were active in the community.
But I am not saying it would be the same now for other kids - I simply do not know. I do know it is not the same as it was - but weather this is good or bad or neutral - I don't know.
All I wanted to comment on was the idea of a Jewish or Muslem family sending their teen to ALA unaware it is what it is - a Christian focused program.. Struck me as amusing - thats all. Amusing b/c it would be impossible - ALA is very clear on that point.
Unlike some wwasps programs, that insit there is no religious focus - then hand out the book of Mormon to kids invited to Bible stuidies.
Not to mention indoctrnating masses of people with New Age beliefes in the Seminairs.
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What is it with these topics? Some retard says "wow I think I'll send my kid" and then someone else comes completely out of the woodwork to reply with crap? Hey "Guest", where were you on the rest of the Fornits topics?
I talked to him almost daily - every other day anyway. I could call him and he could call me anytime for any reason.
From the website itself: "In the first few weeks of the program students are given one ten minute phone call home per week. Once he/she has attained Step 2 he/she receives 2 ten minute phone calls home per week. In Step 3 students receive 2 fifteen phones per week, and with Step 4 and beyond phone calls are unlimited."
Who wants to bet that they're heavily monitored?
They went hiking and camping and snow boarding; on trips to San Fancisco and Disney world. They went to movies and ball games and generally were active in the community.
I'll bet a kilovolt of Lukination versus your cardiac muscles that this is complete falsehood.
You don't even have a son in real life, do you?
No trolls plz kthxdie
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Just sounds like the same old crap:
If it ain't a WWAP PROGRAM, then it can't be all that bad, right?
Being anti-WWASP isn't what it is about.
Being anti-program for these kids is what it is about.
I doubt is ANY KID is going to say they had FUN, in any program. That is a total bullshit statement.
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Milk Gagargaling -
I'm telling you the gold plated truth. I'm trying to be clear - I know nothing abut how things are done now. The phone call policy has changed - many other things have also changed. I am only referring to how it was in 02/03.
Again - my only point was - no way a non-Christian could send a kid to ALA ignorant of the fact it is an overtly Christian program.
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From the website itself: "In the first few weeks of the program students are given one ten minute phone call home per week. Once he/she has attained Step 2 he/she receives 2 ten minute phone calls home per week. In Step 3 students receive 2 fifteen phones per week, and with Step 4 and beyond phone calls are unlimited."
Who wants to bet that they're heavily monitored?
Of course they are. Can't have any dissenters in the bunch. Not to mention the set of arbitrary rules or hoops they have to jump through to "attain" the different steps and the fact that any progress they've made can be yanked from them at any minute for any reason. The amount of control ANY of these places has on someone, especially a developing child, is not, has never been and never will be healthy no matter how you try and dress it up.
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And I say that any kid who relayed to a parent that he had FUN in any program is either severely brainwashed, or is just lying to make his mom feel better.
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Well he thought snowboarding was fun. So was Disneyland and the hikes through Bryce Canyons and so on. I don't think that means he was brainwashed - or lying. He had a lot of fun. There was always a lot of laughing and joking going on - it wasn't at all what you might imagine.
It was a much smaller program then - and these "field trips" were common.
I wouldn't lie to you about it. I'd tell you the truth, if it had been in any way abusive or negligent.
I do know it is a larger program now; and no doubt also not as open as it was. The change in size alone seems to make this inevitable. Still, I have not heard anything from anyone suggesting the kids are mistreated. I guess the best place to check for any report of that nature would be ISAC.
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I've been thinking about you, BK, and your post record on this board.
All right.. coming from you, I'll believe it to be true, although I've never heard of an actual program doing things like that.
Doesn't look like they do the fun stuff anymore, though.
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If Jesus is the answer, what was the question?
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ok fair enough, sure they advertise their unique brand of christianity & i accept that things have probably changed since you sent your son there but cmon. The website was about as jackboot in it's approach to christianty & childrearing as possible. They also were not coy about how strong their focus on discipline was. I can only go on what the school itself advertises & that is a mentality that its kids are in need of punishment automatically. Their euphamism was "adversity" & that this & christ is the only saviour. they also made the huge assumption that troubled kids are undisciplined by their nature.
I am not suggesting that a school with any kind of religious ehos is bad per se, but the blanket slogan "christ is the answer" is an irresponsible thing to teach kids who live in a diverse and multicultural society as it is not the answer for many of the people that kids may have to meet throughout their lifetime. Shouldnt a school with christian values place the emphasis on tolerance for diversity & social justice. Shouldnt it not have room for students to ask questions about faith based issues in the spirit of inellectual inquiry the way they would in any other lesson?
Moreover the student handook had minor emphasis on practical things kids needed to know like what the requred book list was, or what time meals or even church times were but placed a big emphasis on random biblical quotes & ways for student who have been there for a while to discipline the newbies. If a school has theology or divinity classes & regular church services it is one thing but the "jesus wants your sinning kid to be punished" mentality that the website promoted was disturbing.
What if your "troubled" kid has problems that revolve around not getting along with the parents new partner, or strongly questioning the parents faith? What if the kid does not act in a spoilt and entitled manner but is displaying signs of being gay? Nothing suggested to me that this kid would gain acceptance & support within the school. Nothing suggested that conservative but loving parents would be encouraged by the school to accept a kid like this for who they are or work together to overcome the communication issues which pervade the whole family or find out what it was that their kid believed in.
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that above poster was we. seemed to be logged off again!
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Well if the focus is on punishment as you say (I've not seen this) then things have changed a great deal. Punishment was not the focus. There were reasonable consequences for breaking rules - but they were in fact very reasonable; and by typical industry standards, quit lenient. As I've pointed out, I don't know anything about what may or may not have changed.
I really don't want to come across as the apologist for ALA on Fornits. I am far to out of touch with current events to attempt any such thing.
However, speaking generally about Christian programs, I will make some comments.
As for taking issue with the apparent intolerance - that is not an unusual complaint. However - I would hope that the families who make use of the school would be of like mind.
There is of corse the potential for some teens to find themselves in such a program b/c it is what their parents believe - not what they believe. This has the potential for being most uncomfortable for some. I grant you this is a concern.
I would hope, that altho many attitudes, beliefs and behaviors would not be acceptable (acceptable defined as "not a problem") in a Christian program - the people holding such views would be treated with respect and consideration - even as they are disagreed with.
However, I would disagree with your comment: "the blanket slogan "Christ is the answer" is an irresponsible thing to teach kids who live in a diverse and multicultural society . . ."
If one believes the only real and lasting solution to the problem of sin (and all life's problems are the result of sin) is a relationship with Jesus the Messiah, then it would be irresponsible to not be clear on that point.
However - it is not a point to be forced - and that is an important thing to remember.
You ask: "Shouldnt a school with Christian values place the emphasis on tolerance for diversity & social justice. "
As to tolerance, I don't think so. There is a great deal that should not be tolerated in the Christian church. If it is, then what you have is something other than a Christian church. But this doesn't mean those who disagree should be guilt tripped or shamed. That is where to many Christian programs cross the line. I wish there were more effort to remember we are all sinners in need of grace and salvation; and that none of us has any business shaming others - for how are we any better? When it comes to being sinners in need of salvation, students and staff are on equal footing. Neither should be held up to public ridicule. And this business of public confession is something that needs to be halted absolutely - no matter what kind of program it is. Confession and repentance is between the person and God, an is no one else's business at all.
As to social justice - I am tempted to say, yes of corse this is always needed - but maybe we need to clarify what you mean by social justice. If you mean people treated fairly and equally despite their differences, then yes, of corse I agree.
Diversity is always good - but if your talking diversity of faiths - then you aren't talking a Christian program. It may be operated by a church - but if their is no focus on faith, then it is secular in its focus. Not a problem - but this isn't what we're talking about here. Of corse it is a Big problem, if the program is claiming to be non faith based - and then the students are required to attend Mass, or read the book of Mormon, or bow to Allah, or have new age beliefs forced upon them in LGAT seminars.
As for the Christian programs with questioning or disbelieving students, It is possible to debate the various issues and not attack one another. I consider it vitally important for the Christian program to remember you can not force repentance on people. That is between them and the Holy Sprit.
You can present the gospel message, and explain why we are to live one way, and not another - but weather or not this is accepted as truth by another is a deeply personal thing - between them and God.
Pounding anyone with guilt and shame will be far more likely to harden their heart, and drive them further into the darkness, than if you present the message with patience and kindness, and maybe even a little humor - and pray for them - and leave the convicting up to the Holy Sprit. Anything else is pointless and counter productive.
But please note - none of this means the gospel message, or the lessons in the scripture, should be watered down to suit another's personal taste. I'm just saying you can't force it. No matter how refreshing the water - if you force it down another persons throat, they will chock on it. They must drink willingly, b/c they want it, for it to do anygood.
You say "If a school has theology or divinity classes & regular church services it is one thing but the "Jesus wants your sinning kid to be punished" mentality that the website promoted was disturbing. "
If that's the message then your right, it is disturbing. I would be surprised. Punishment was not ever the focus - repentance and redemption - but not punishment. As I explained, repentance/redemption can not be forced. I know many "Christian" programs ignore this fact - but I hope ALA will never be one of them.
As to your final paragraph - As we all know, many kids end up in all kinds of programs, who don't need or "deserve" to be there. I would hope that these kids would be treated with the kindness and compassion - just like the kids who are more in need of intervention. Of corse, tragically, kindness and compassion are seriously lacking in this industry as a whole.
As for working with the parents to improve communication - Hopefully, there are always such efforts made - As you know - the Parents are often the problem.
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their website states
Jesus is the only answer for your troubled teen
I hope your kid is not jewish or muslim!
Why not Jewish? Jesus was . . .
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Your comment reminds me of something I heard just yesterday. . .
I was watching this older movie about this Jewish kid who was struggling with the issue involving tolerance and family expectations.
I was waiting for "the Chosen" and this was on first. I didn't catch the name.
Anyway, at one point there is this "brotherhood" day celebration to take place; and the kid is asking his Rabbi why people pretend to be so nice when underneath is all this meanness. He ends up providing the Rabbi with a number of small town "secretes" - things everyone knows, but which are never said out loud. The Rabbi uses this into to make some good points during his chance at the podium on Brotherhood day.
But to get started, he began with some humor -
A Jewish father went to his good friend and lamented: My son is leaving for Jerusalem tomorrow - he is going to become a Christian!
His friend in a state of amazement says: Funny you should mention that - my son also has left for Jerusalem - and says he is going to become a Christian - what shall we do?!
So, they go to confer with their Rabbi - Rabbi, they say - our sons are heading for Jerusalem - to become Christians - what shall we do?!
The Rabbi says - Funny you should mention that! My son also has gone to Jerusalem and become a Christian! Let us fast, cover our heads with ashes, rend our clothes, and pray -
And so they did.
After some days of this, The All Mighty speaks to them - What is it that is so disturbing you? He asks. So they tell Him: Our sons have left for Jerusalem to become Christians! and a voice Booms forth from the Heavens - Funny you should mention that!
Made me smile.
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as far as religion goes, I feel every religion has to respect the other. Unless it is a radical religion of course. I have no problem with any religious person unless they try to convert me or whatever. My cousin is in a mixed race/ mixed faith religion and from what I have seen they saeem very happy. Her husband seems pretty down to earth , cracking jokes etc. He is a Jehovah's Witness. She is Roman Catholic. BSarro,I know you will have something to say about that but I do not care. As for Buzzkill, I disagree on the program stuff with her, but I have alot of respect for her. I have had dialogue with Buzzkill and she does seem like a very nice person. And I was talking with her a little while back about my life a little bit and she not once tried to hammer christianity. I appreciate that very much. In my life I had so many people who said they were christians and said embrace christianity or burn in eternal hell. I never got that from Buzzkill. But I do very respectfully disagree with Buzzkill about Jesus being the answer to everything. If he was , we would not be here discussing abusive programs and the like. Just my two cents.
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Mikey, Your cousin is going to be locked out of the promised land for getting married to a person who practices a false religion.
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Thank you Mikey
As to your final comment "if He was, we wouldn't be here talking about abusive programs" - I still say He is, and if people lived lives according to this His principals, there would be no such thing as an abusive program.
The people operating these abusive programs are not concerning themselves at all with Christian living or behavior toward others.
As for correct Christian attitudes towards our Jewish brothers:
Zechariah 8 V 23: In those days ten men from ten different nations will clutch at the coat sleeve of one Jew and say " Please let us go with you, for God is with you,"
And another Z Prophet:
Zephaniah 3 18- 20: I have gathered your wounded and taken away your reproach. And I will deal severely with all who have oppressed you, I will save the weak and helpless ones, and bring together those who were chased away. I will give glory to my former exiles, mocked and ashamed. At that time I will gather you together and bring you home again, and give you distinction among the peoples of the earth, and they will praise you when I restore your fortunes before your very eyes, Says the Lord.
(Hope your paying attention BS arro.)
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What is a Z Prophet? What is Zephaniah?
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There is no such thing as a true "Christian" school unless the kids are all being taught and required to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, take care of the old and infirm, become compassionate and doing for "the least" among us. Jesus was anti-religious dogma, anti-materialism and wanted people to take care of and love each other IN THIS WORLD. There is really only one person in the world who came close to living the way Jesus preached: Mother Theresa. He did not want people to screw over each other in this world, pray a lot so they could get a good seat in the next world. He said the kingdom of heaven is HERE (or could be if we practiced love and justice, treating each other as we would wish to be treated and loving each other as we love ourselves). Everything else is hogwash, various (thousands of) people's ideas (some reeeeeeeeeeeeeealy crazy) of what was written down by many many people over a number of years and put down in a book that was supposed to be ALLEGORICAL, not dogma. Most "christians" I have come in contact with, especially the "born again" flavor, revel in the idea of eternal torture in store for those who do not subscribe to their particular brand of craziness.
Just because they don't hammer it into you doesn't mean it isn't there in the back of their self-righteous minds. Which is par for the course for just about ALL religions. Jesus may not be the answer but his teachings could be if people really paid attention: you know, take care of the sick, homeless, hungry, elderly, each other. Don't be greedy, petty, avaricious etc. Fat chance in this world. No one really KNOWS what the next one is going to be like not matter how much they try to convince everyone that they do.
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To the person who posted the jewish joke
::bigsmilebounce:: ::bwahaha::
To buzzkill. Please do not get me wrong. my aim was not to criticise your faith or to dispute your son's experience there. i suspect that if its current marketing is a true picture, it has grown into another school entirely. i also agree that schools which claim to be secular but push some kind of crazy new age therapy confessional groups onto kids should also be strongly taken to task. Or worse schools like thayer who claim to be secular but are accused of things like making hindu kids eat meat till they throw up.
What i objected to was the tone of the schools current marketing which was extremely fire and brimstone and which gave the strong impression of taking a "tough love" approach and claiming it was in the name of christian love. it also openly advertised the monitored ph calls and that "adversity" which i read as punishment was good foor spoilt young people. It was not at all dissimilar to the website of New Horizons ministrys which used to be Escuela Caribe. After reading jesus land I felt immediately uncomfortable with the extremely hard line the school pushed. As to the debate about jesus being the answer to all human ills, i guess we will have to agree to disagree. I have never understood the whole original sin concept (the brand of christianity I was raised with was Catholicism but i tend to think they are all similar once you get past the bells and smells) why focus on what is wrong with people, why not focus on what it right? I don't really hink most curious, hormonal naughty kids are so much sinners as just eager to have some fun and too young to have really thought out the consequencesa to some of their actions. i certainly don't view my adult self as a sinner. More just a stubborn smart alec with too much to say.
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All I meant by "Z Prophet" is an Old Testament Prophet whose name begins with the letter Z.
Zephaniah & Zechariah are both old testament Prophets.
Pls Help - You make some valid points and I am in no way intending to dismiss them. Certainly we can agree to disagree on some of these things - I think in most things we are like minded.
Being a good protestant, I have many problems with Roman Catholicism - one of which is the concept of infant baptism to remove original sin. Maybe we can talk about it some other time
As to Thayer - if I'm not mistaken (and I could be) they actually bill themselves as Christian. There are several very disturbing programs that call themselves Christian - and like other Christians who have become aware of this, I am outraged by it. I don't pretend to have a complete understanding of what Hell is, and what it will be like - we are not given a great deal of information on the subject - but it is certainly spoken of as a real place - Jesus describes it as the outer darkness, where there is weeping and nashing of teeth. I think these so called Christians, who use the cloak of their supposed faith as a masquerade for their sadism, will find a very dark and cold and lonely place in Hell. My opinion only, of corse. Luckily for them - I don't get to make that decision.
I'm glad you enjoyed the joke. It was a good little movie - I'l have to try and look it up and get the title.
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Why are we waffling over the 'christian' angle to a program.
Programs are wrong intrinsically, you cant just throw a religion (ANY religion) at it to make it 'work', its just to attract stupid religious people vs stupid secular people to send their kids off.
A christian program just brainwashes kids for jesus and money instead of just money, big whoop. Its still psychologically abusive, its still based on coersion, and its still about as therapeutic and safe as a non christian program. :roll:
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Hello Niles :D
Naturally, I don't agree that Christian teaching is brainwashing - but there are so many problems with the industry on the whole, that one can not be to careful.
And there are some Christian groups that operate very much like a cult. It pays to be aware of the signs to watch for; as you can't assume a church or group is helpful and beneficial just because they use Jesus' name.
I have recommended it on Fornits already - but its worth repeating - Cults in Our Midst. A most valuable read.
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Buzzkil, I understand what you are saying but I just do not understand why Jesus would just stand by and not act on evil. For example, lets say a mother always tells her daughter Jesus will always be there to protect her and make sure no harm comes her way. One day that same girl is kidnapped, raped, killed by some sicko pedophile. Imagine that same girl saying to herself in her last moments of life. Jesus is gonna come save me. He will not let this sicko do any harm to me. But he doesn't come. Sicko pedophile kills her.I do not like to speak for others but I fell confident that you would do everything in your power to save this girl if you witnessed such an attack. I just do not understand why Jesus would not intervene. I am afraid the best response you may be able to ofer is Jesus works in mysterious ways and that he always has a plan. But why does his plan have to include a young girl being brutally murdered by a sicko pedophile? I think that is a good question to ask any religion.
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Why are we waffling over the 'christian' angle to a program.
My objection was not about the programme being christian it was because it looked like brainwashing under any other name. "jesus is the only answer" a student handbook whihc was full of random biblical quotes but had few details about the running of the school. A picture which had a large sea of kids kneeling (not dissimilar to the pictures the media puts out showing masses of findamentalist muslims) & the idea that "troubled kids" can be fixed through adversity.
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Hi Mikey.
You have presented an age old problem/question - why do the evil proper, is another way of putting it. I don't know how you would feel about it - but you might want to consider reading C S Lewis' "the Problem of Pain". He deals with these issues far better than anything I could say would.
I suspect there are also Rabbis who have taken a stab at grappling with this subject. In fact, heres a link for you: http://www.torah.org/learning/issues/badgood.html (http://www.torah.org/learning/issues/badgood.html)
Another often recommended book on the subject by a Christian author is: "When God Doesn't Make Sense" by James Dobson.
There is also a book "When bad things happen to Good People" - and I think it's author is Jewish. I'm not sure.
As for your tragic scenario - I would say the mother was wrong to promise her child any such thing. This is an idea common in some Christian groups (protection and prosperity) but it is totally un-Biblical. I do realize many a mom or dad has made such promises to a child with out really giving the matter much thought.
Still, this kind of teaching is in fact a New Age teaching, not Christian. Its the idea we create our own reality - good comes to those who expect it - who think it into being. A church teaching this may say: you'll prosper if you have faith. Speak it into being, is another idea they teach. If you want money you should say out loud: I have lots of money - and you will, is the idea. If you are ill or have hard ships, it is b./c you are harboring sin, or you do not have enough faith.
No where does the Bible say anything like this. In fact - it says quite the opposite. I'm of the opinion those who teach this are attempting to turn the All Mighty Creator, into a genie they can manipulate.
At its most extreme, as described above, I feel it is a kind of Sorcery. I believe when this kind of thing is taught in a Church, it amounts to inviting Satan into the Sanctuary.
As to the child in your scenario - My personal belief is, her confusion, fear, and pain would dissolve and disappear; and she would find herself in the company of Jesus, waiting to take her were such things never were, and never will be.
We would of corse view her death as tragic beyond words. And from our perspective, it is. No question. But I suspect, God, being eternal; and having made us with an eternal soul and destination; would not see it that way. For us, death is tragically, horribly final. But from an eternal perspective it doesn't seem that way at all.
But to be clear on another point, the one doing harm to a child is under harsh judgment. Jesus will not just stand by and let it go un noticed. He is the one about which Jesus said, he would be better off having a millstone tied around his neck, and thrown into the sea, than to face the judgment awaiting him.
Of corse, all of this is beyond the scope of the thread topic. If you want to "talk" about it some more, maybe we can go to email or PMs?
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I just jogged over to take a look at the current web site; see what I thought. Guess you guys will want to flay me - but I didn't get what your getting out of it at all.
I *think* what is meant by adversity is simply teaching the kid they can't have their every whim fulfilled the moment they think of it. You know - helping them learn how good it is to wait until they can pay for it themselves -and earn the money to do so for themselves. That kind of adversity. So many kids today really don't know what its like to want something they can't have - or to have to wait weeks or months or years to earn the money to buy it.
I think Craig is right, when he says the general problem is the average kid gets to much just handed to him. Also, I believe this is about allowing Jr to suffer the Natural consequences of his irresponsibility - not some falsely sever version of consequence - but the normal, everyday consequence to many parents tend to pave over for their kids; so as to keep them from feeling any sense of "adversity".
Now again, I am so out of touch with ALA and the current situation, I can not speak to what one should expect there - but I don't get the same sense of concern you guys do from the web site. I didn't see the photo of the kids praying - but I doubt that would seem anything like the masses of Islamic jihadist to my eyes. (smiling)
TSW mentions methodology - I can attest to the fact when my son was there, it was not at all forceful or harsh. I certainly disagree it is anything like the Spanish inquisition - which was bloody and murderous in its methods - as you well know. (your over stating your case a bit) One can argue as to weather or not a program can effect change in a kid with out the risk of doing harm; But to say ALA amounts to forced conversion is a bit of a stretch.
(Maybe we can "talk" about your views on abortion some time - eh?)
A reminder since we're talking web sites: Naturally, I would caution anyone to never take their good impression of a web site as proof of any programs value. Its important to be aware of the warning signs and red flags. Many of the most horrible have beautiful web sites. That being said - I think ALA has put up an honest web site. This is what they believe.
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http://abundantlifeacademy.com/contact.php (http://abundantlifeacademy.com/contact.php)
The sea of kids kneeling. :-?
One general thrust of the site that i strongly disagreed with & 1 idea that gets bandied around a lot by the industry is that today's kids have a greater sense of entitlement than the previous generation. I notice that this claim is not usually backed up by anything statistically. there are also plenty of home remedies to this issue which programmes have a financial interest in not suggesting. I am sure every kid has heard about how in mum & dads day they had to walk to school for 50 miles wearing only tyres for shoes.
If i could add a random outside observation here, One thing that i have also noticed from my various trips to the US is that if your teens are largely out of control & in need of a firmer hand it is certainly not apparent to the naked eye. From the tough looking kids in new York who stood up for me on the subway to the texan kids who insisted on calling me Maam all the time, I never encountered any out of control kids. Moreover there seems to be a tradition that does not exist here of kids being involved in voluntary activities like Candy Striping or coaching sporting teams. One kid told me this was because it looked good on the uni application, but still it is obviously somewhat encouraged in a way that it is not in Australia. The only eq we have are surf lifesavers & they spend 1 hr patroling the beach & 3 drinking beer in the club rooms.
Academics like mike Males have also pointed out that teen pregnancy rates and violent crimes have been on the decline with American kids for years. In spite of this the behaviour mod industry has been growing. Could it be that the media are lying to the country & scaring decent, concerned parents & the industry is cashing in? One of the Time magazine headlines around the time of the columbine shootings was "A lost generation" Only 2 kids did this, but somehow they represent a whole generation.
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Well, I was right - we don't see the sea of kids kneeling the same way at all. (smiling) Looks like relatively small group of people, sitting around in chairs, to me. Looks like it is probably a Bible study, as the one to the front has a Bible on his lap. No way to tell if they are in prayer or not - but it doesn't look like it to me.
I do think kids have to much handed to them. I do think in some cases this makes it hard for them to learn to deal with the frustration of having to wait, and work for something. But of corse I have no statistics.
I will agree that in most cases the kids seem to do just fine anyway. It seldom leads to serious problems for the teen, or the family. But when you combine this habit of instant gratification with drug usage, you can get a rather troublesome set of behaviors as a result.
Even so, it must be acknowledged that programs seldom (if ever) solve these problems. I do think, that for some kids, in some cases, a program such as ALA can be helpful (based on my family's experience) If nothing else, it can get them in a new environment and away from the drugs (one hopes) and help them focus with a clear head on their education and future goals; and the value of public service and charity. They may learn skills that will help them in future, even if they do have a spell of increased drug usage after the return home; which seems to be extremely common.
As to your other observations, I do agree that American's are dealing with a propaganda war against their children. I agree it is feeding the growth of this industry. I agree this is creating an environment where the potentional for abuse and neglect are so profound and serious, that a parent really can not be to careful. I agree that most of the "troubled" teens will mature out of their troubles on there own, with or with out the extremes of residentional intervention. Many of those who don't, are dealing with more serious issues of mental illness - and they certainly do not benefit from the typical program experience.
I just can't get as alarmed as you folks over ALA and their web site. I just don't see it the same way. And knowing what I know of this industry - and based on my personal experience - I find myself wishing there were more like ALA, (weather Christian or secular) as opposed to Thayer, or Bethel, or Living Waters Refuge, or Majestic Ranch, etcetera. Far less harm would be done (and maybe some good) if such were the case - as far as I'm concerned.
All this being said - let me reiterate - I know nothing about the current situation - and there have clearly been changes. Still, I find myself feeling the above paragraph is very likely accurate.
As to your observations of American kids - well I'm very glad to hear it - and not really surprised. Still, the fact is, that kid who insisted on calling you Mamme, might well more often than not, call his mom Stupid Bitch.
One thing I've noticed over and over - kids behave much better when not at home; or with people not their parents. I believe this is where the old tradition of sending a teen to live with relatives comes from. They often do better. I think this factor plays into the idea of boarding schools - and summer camps - as well as the growth of residentional programs.
One major (and most harmful) difference in the traditional methods and the current situation with the program is a lack of communication. I could go on - but I have things I need to get off my rump and go do - I am sure I need not explain it anyway.
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TSW, if you want to get a sense of how Craig might run a bunch of impressionable kids and their gullible parents around, check out his correspondence at Dewey Cheetham & Howe
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Heh sorry pls help but American kids get just about anything they want, plus their rights to be entilted to whatever they pretty much want is protected by the governent.
If this is indeed the case wouldnt the remedy be to just be a little less materially indulgent. Does your govt say that parents have to buy their kids a car ect?
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Alternatively you could be a little more materially indulgent and use the money not spent on sending them to a Hell made by Christians to buy them a Dodge Viper instead.
Time to go dig up that thread...
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Academics like mike Males have also pointed out that teen pregnancy rates and violent crimes have been on the decline with American kids for years. In spite of this the behaviour mod industry has been growing. Could it be that the media are lying to the country & scaring decent, concerned parents & the industry is cashing in? One of the Time magazine headlines around the time of the columbine shootings was "A lost generation" Only 2 kids did this, but somehow they represent a whole generation.
I was just talking to a young guy and my 10yo daughter about this earlier today. Kid is about mid `20's I guess. Neither one could believe that, when I was a kid, it was legal and pretty normal for a teenager or even pre-teen ride a moped, own a small boat and use it freely, drive their own car or the family car, have a job and their own money unsuveiled and go out on the weekends w/o having to submit a detailed ittinerary to the parental units.
The way it used to work, all the kids were all over the neighborhood all the time. The teenagers drifted in and out as their lives and babysitting money led them. Between the grapevine at their hang outs, like under the pier or down at the burger joint, and the neighborhood grapevine among us younger kids, not much happened that didn't eventually get back around to everybody. I caught hell the whole way. There was a girl a few years older than me who looked so much like me that I caught shit for everything she did. Never did meet her even once, but my brother cut a cop off in traffic to keep her from getting hit crossing the street and I met a good many of her patrons from the PlayPen a few years later looking for directions, usually to the Cheetah.
Now? Nobody knows nuthin. Everybody's locked away in their narrow tracks of activity and couch potatoing.
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Well Ginger - you've must've gotten quite a Hoot out of Tom's replies.
Almost made it all worth while, I bet.
TSW - As to your questions - Well really, I don't know. My guess would be they could hold to any faith they wanted - but it wouldn't be encouraged or treated equally - but again - no one is pretending otherwise. I honestly have no idea weather or not the Bible studies are required.
You say:
Try this.. swap bible study for LGAT and in the end you have about the same thing.
I couldn't disagree more.
Milk G - I don't think the Viper is such a good idea. I have often wondered if it might not be better in many ways to take a really awesome family vacation. I think this could afford many opportunities to talk that would never be found at home - and seeing new places and enjoying the sites can be a bonding experience. Or I guess it could also be a nightmare. I suppose like anything else, weather or not this would be good or bad, would depend on the particular family dynamics.
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http://www.habitat.org/ccyp/intl_programs/default.aspx (http://www.habitat.org/ccyp/intl_programs/default.aspx)
In the spirit of not just bashing faith based programmes such as Abundance, above is a link to Habitat for humanity's youth programme. This would look great on the College application, encourage a kid to do something for the less fortunate and "entitled" in the community community & if they are really beginning to run off the rails lead them not into temptation! It is also run by a christian organisation so would be great for a kid from a christian family. A concerned parent could have their kid do this without having to worry about somebody cynically making buckets of money out of their families problems. A reward for their child's selflessness could be a mutually agreed upon family vacation. Everybody wins. :wink:
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TSW - Clearly, ALA is not "open" to anything other than Christianity. My point is, they don't pretend to be "open" and then force attendance at Mass, or studies of "the Pearl of Great Price" or sessions with the Mahareshe mo Heshe Yogi.
I don't actually *know* if they would accept a Hindu or Buddest child if asked to by Christian parents. If so, then I do feel safe saying that while the little Hindu might be exposed to vast amounts of Christian thought - they would never be forced to eat meat. I feel safe saying they would not have their food spit on, or be limited from activities others were allowed to enjoy. I feel I know that this kind of thing would never be tolerated at ALA. I believe I know them well enough to know this much.
Depending on what you mean by Fundamentalist - I might qualify for that definition, and so might ALA. It used to simply mean a person who believed the Bible to be true - But has come to mean other things, these days. They (and I) are not Baptist as someone has suggested. I believe they (and I) hold to a more non denominational form of Christianity. There is nothing forceful or militant about it.
And again - to be very clear - I don't know how things are done now - but when my son was there, they in no way sought to stifle creativity or freedom of thought. In fact, it seemed to me that Craig tried to help the boys learn to think things through - and to explore their interests and creative sprit. He got tutors to teach those who were interested, how to build web sites, for example. He encouraged my son's skills as a stand up comic - laughing hilariously at his stories and antics.
And of corse, as a Christian, I have no problem with God being part of a person's healing process. I do happen to believe there is healing that takes place when we turn to Christ. This is not an involuntary change. It is sought after, and prayed for, and given as a gift from a merciful God.
As I explained in an earlier post - any program that tries to force the issue will do more harm than good - but I hope ALA will never be one of those.
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One of the main things wrong with ALA is the same thing that is wrong with ALL tbs: the focus is on the kid, not the family system produced him or her. The ALA website clearly discounts almost all diagnoses and insists the kids they deal with are mainly "spoiled brats" but nowhere do they ask who in the hell "spoiled" them. Its the same old thing; the parents always get off the hook (because they control the purse strings) and the kid, the designated scapegoat for all the families problems, gets sent away to be "fixed".
It is the adults who spoil, indulge and allow their kids to feel entitled, if indeed that is the case. It does not happen over night. It is adults who have developed faster and faster instant gratification toys marketed to kids and it is their parents who buy them but it is the kids who get labeled "spoiled brats". And it is the WWASPS of the world who get rich off of the parents inability to properly parent.
Again unless the schools are teaching and requiring the kids to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, treating each other as they want to be treated and loving their neighbors as themselves the label "Christian" is phony, hypocritial and these are the first schools Jesus himself would shut down in anger if he was here today.
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I think we can all agree that religion is not therapy and therapy is not a religion (despite all the culty programs running around...) and they should be kept seperate.
Trying to make religious therapy or therapeutic religion is quackery in the first case and taking advantage of the weak on the other.
Kinda like Prison conversions. Lets put someone in a living hell and offer them an easy way out at their mentally and psychologically weakest! :roll:
Yanno, kind of like buying into the program when youre being mentally beaten down, or the prison NOI converts?
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Emailed them asking questions, we will see if they repsond.
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http://www.isaccorp.org/documents/mexic ... 10.04.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/documents/mexico-closures.12.10.04.html)
:evil:
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Buzzkill, do you reccemend I send my son to Abundant Life Academy?
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What do y'all hav against the great state of ALA?