Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 10, 2006, 06:30:00 PM
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Hi guys, need some advice, my 12 year old has severe emotional problems. He goes beserk at anything and everything. He recently started a fire on purpose because i told him to stop playing video to eat dinner. We have tried therapy , inpatient , outpatient. My question for you guys is where do we go from here?
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Stop trolling Fornits?
Actually if he's 12 and doing that stuff I have my own purposes for him. Relax, I'm not a pedo. I assure you, he has a bright future. I won't even charge you.
Shoot me an email. MGDP[AT]duumvirate[DOT]net. (at = @, dot = . )
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Need some advice.
Sorted in ASC Order
Anonymous
Unregistered User Posted: 2006-07-10 15:30:00
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Hi guys, need some advice, my 12 year old has severe emotional problems. He goes beserk at anything and everything. He recently started a fire on purpose because i told him to stop playing video to eat dinner. We have tried therapy , inpatient , outpatient. My question for you guys is where do we go from here?
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Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#206475 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=16399&forum=9&start=0#206475)
Milk Gargling Death Penalty
Familiar Face
Joined: 2006-06-25
Posts: 67 Posted: 2006-07-10 15:37:00
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Stop trolling Fornits?
Actually if he's 12 and doing that stuff I have my own purposes for him. Relax, I'm not a pedo. I assure you, he has a bright future. I won't even charge you.
WAY TO GO. WHAT HAPPENS if an anon is really looking for straight answers from non program people? Put downs? Insults? Both seem like such great ways to promote non-program approaches to kids needing help.
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When an anon is looking for straight answers, we give straight answers.
When an anon is trolling, we laugh at him and mock his miserable excuse for an existence.
What's so hard to understand?
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On 2006-07-10 15:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi guys, need some advice, my 12 year old has severe emotional problems. He goes beserk at anything and everything. He recently started a fire on purpose because i told him to stop playing video to eat dinner. We have tried therapy , inpatient , outpatient. My question for you guys is where do we go from here? "
If you've got a 12 year old that is THAT out of control then you've sucked as a parent and are now experiencing the consequences. Suck it up and fix it yourself!
But I have a feeling that Milk is dead on in his assessment of the situation. ::troll::
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Oh. My. God.
It's a troll, yeah.
Still, it's a good hypothetical case:
Truth? If a kid goes "berserk at anything" and starts fires, there certainly is no cure.
The only possible help is putting such a kid inpatient and trying to get him stabilized on medication.
He may end up in prison no matter what anyone does.
Programs won't help, we don't have squat that will help. If we had anything that would help, we wouldn't need juvie prisons or adult prisons now, would we.
Stabilizing on meds and trying to teach the kid empathy through a loving home are about the only chances he has.
Starting fires---in a hostile way, not just screwing around---is a very bad sign.
Which the troll knew.
Advocates of the Programs would say the parents might as well try them, even though the Programs don't work. Well, flaying the skin off his back doesn't work either, should we try that, too? Then should we go to cutting off fingers?
"Don't just stand there, do something" is the stupidest advice it is possible to give, if taken literally.
"Don't just stand there, pick one helpful thing and get started" is decent advice. Unfortunately, the people you have to tell that longer idea to are the ones most likely to misunderstand the short version above.
Julie
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I'm sorry for what your going through with your twelve year old but asking for help on this web sight is not the answer as you can tell from the replies you've recieved. Talk to an education consultant on what is best for your child. Read some books or even check out the tv show Supper Nanny. If your looking for treatment check out some programs and ask for referals. I wish we were perfect like the people who replied to your cry for help but I'm sure all they were trying to do is help.
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or even check out the tv show Supper Nanny.
BEST TROLL EVER! :lol:
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On 2006-07-11 06:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry for what your going through with your twelve year old but asking for help on this web sight is not the answer as you can tell from the replies you've recieved. Talk to an education consultant on what is best for your child. Read some books or even check out the tv show Supper Nanny. If your looking for treatment check out some programs and ask for referals. I wish we were perfect like the people who replied to your cry for help but I'm sure all they were trying to do is help. "
Bwahahahahaha
Program trolls like to defend their rotten behavior by sarcastically implying that everyone who behaves better than them is presenting themselves as perfect.
Of course we're not perfect parents. Neither were our own parents perfect. Some of the folks on here were the kids of Program Parents and have profitted by their parents' negative example---becoming good parents themselves.
Some folks, like me, had parents who weren't perfect but were sure as hell better than the Program Parents.
Obviously, I'm not a perfect parent. Just ask my kid. :smile: But I'm good enough to get by. Unlike the Program Parents.
Okay, the hard truth is that some parents give birth to the equivalent of Rosemary's Baby. Some kids are either born with serious damage, or get a bump on the head that does brain damage in some real bad places, or get abused by neighbors or relatives the parents had no reason to suspect.
I say this as someone with a Psychology degree from a top ten public university, who has kept up with this area of my field, including exhaustive reading on mental illness and criminology, since graduation sixteen years ago.
Some kids are damaged beyond repair.
Some of them are mentally ill. Medication will not cure them, but it can almost always stabilize them enough to be out of the psych ward almost all the time.
Programs won't cure the mentally ill. There is no cure. Researchers are trying to learn enough to find a cure, but they don't have one yet. They're close enough that they may have one in the kid's lifetime, but that's the best you can hope for.
Some of the kids are budding sociopaths. The problem with sociapaths is that their capacity for empathy is broken.
There is no cure for sociopathy, there are no effective treatments for sociopathy.
There is some evidence that budding sociopaths, in the critical years before about age fifteen, can be helped to learn empathy in a real family home with loving parents.
That is the only preventative criminal psychologists know of that can keep some of these at risk kids from becoming uncurable sociopaths.
For psychopaths, it's the same story only worse.
For sociopaths or psychopaths, the most critical thing broken is empathy. They don't have any.
The only thing that will help them at all is developing the capacity for empathy.
By forcing children to inform on, ridicule, be harsh with, and punish other children, the Program is a perfect prescription for how you turn an at risk kid into a hardened sociopath. It doesn't teach empathy, it does everything it can to squash it flat.
Setting fires is a very bad sign.
Sending a violently explosive kid who sets fires to a Program is like going out with him to kill kittens together.
Hey, let's squash any last vestiges of empathy and foster sadistic pleasure in the misery of others! What a great idea!
Not.
Julie
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"Advocates of the Programs would say the parents might as well try them, even though the Programs don't work." Not all "advocates of programs" would say "might as well try them." Programs do work -- if they are the "right" kind for a particular situation. And yes, there are a lot of inappropriate choices that can be made, and a fair number of places that claim to "take care" of everything but don't.
"Suck it up" is heard here often as well, and that is generally about as good.
Sure, the OP looks like a troll. And no "program" seems in order so much as a good psychiatrist and perhaps a hospitalization. I don't know, and since the issue seems fictional, who cares one might say. But for the next question???
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What kid has access to anything that could potentially start a fire, do you leave lighters around?
Seems to me the best course of action is to lock up anything that starts a fire, remove his video games (most of which are violent and shouldnt be played by a 12 yr old), limit his Television time.
The key here is telling him there are consequences for his actions. Does he act out at school? Likely not because the teacher has set forth consequences for his innapropriate actions. He knows if he shows his butt at school there are consequences that the teacher can enact.
I would then get him into an outpatient program with a qualified juvenile therapist.
Outpatient therapy only works if you send them consistently over a period of a year or more. The key is consistency.
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Hi guys, need some advice, my 12 year old has severe emotional problems. He goes beserk at anything and everything. He recently started a fire on purpose because i told him to stop playing video to eat dinner. We have tried therapy , inpatient , outpatient. My question for you guys is where do we go from here?
Clearly the proper thing to do is to either beat the shit out of him until hes a sobbing, drooling mess, and make him your slave, or...
Throw him into a place called a "therapeutic boarding school" and use your personal suffering for what your kid did and talk about how hard it was to 'make the right decision' and have the escorts take him away on http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ ... category=1 (http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?category=1) for attention with all the other parents who do the same thing, all wanting attention in a munchausen by institution sort of way...
Or, realize hes a figment of your imagination, and hold up a crucifix and invoke the name of JESVS to drive the evil spirits away...
Or go get a truck mechanic with a large vice to screw your head on straight?
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"Advocates of the Programs would say the parents might as well try them, even though the Programs don't work." Not all "advocates of programs" would say "might as well try them." Programs do work -- if they are the "right" kind for a particular situation. And yes, there are a lot of inappropriate choices that can be made, and a fair number of places that claim to "take care" of everything but don't.
"Suck it up" is heard here often as well, and that is generally about as good.
Sure, the OP looks like a troll. And no "program" seems in order so much as a good psychiatrist and perhaps a hospitalization. I don't know, and since the issue seems fictional, who cares one might say. But for the next question???
Oh really? Show me evidence that any program works at all.
:roll: We've been down this road. You cant custom tailor torture to a real problem to be therapy for it. You cant spin and bullshit me with it, TheWho tried and failed. Its nothing but bullshit regressional 'breaking' that fixes nothing, causes more problems down the road, and makes them lose out on some of the best years of their lives and the accompanying social development that comes with it by being kept in some hellhole institution filling them with rehashed new age nonsense from decades ago and using restraint as corporal punishment.
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Let him go live with Julie and little Katie. And, please, don't even think about lighting a candle and leaving the matches out.
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Let him go live with Julie and little Katie. And, please, don't even think about lighting a candle and leaving the matches out.
No, you tie him up and torture him with hot wax for being a bad little boy and sell a video of it to the Kays for use in a wwasps promotional film, doofus.
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Julie,
You aren't to the point where you might consider a program. You may be munching your words.
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"Best years of their lives"???? High School??? You've got to be fucking kidding.
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"Best years of their lives"???? High School??? You've got to be fucking kidding.
What SHOULD BE, not before we had to go and fuck it up by making kids socially inept and making schools gang and thug-wannabe ridden cliquey hellholes where you dont know if the spoiled kids acting thug or the actual ghetto kids are worse.
We really fucked up the teenage years, I tell ya. I hear someone whose not in Generation Y (why?!?!?!) fondly remember, and I remember my experience with authoritarian or slightly programmesque bullshit in highschool plus all the social detritus called the 'student body', and its two completely different things.
My stepdad was out building his own cars engine in shop class and doing burnouts during lunch, same for all the older guys on the car forums I hang out on, vs the control freak bullshit I see now, with the singular focus on obedience, not really any necessity.
But yeah, good point. Highschool years had good times OUTSIDE of highschool where youre SUPPOSED to be doing stupid shit, getting laid, getting in non-legal trouble, playing video games until 3 am and getting your friends mom drunk.
Er, wait... well, hey, I guess thats fun too :P
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Where is DJ?
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"Advocates of the Programs would say the parents might as well try them, even though the Programs don't work." Not all "advocates of programs" would say "might as well try them." Programs do work -- if they are the "right" kind for a particular situation. And yes, there are a lot of inappropriate choices that can be made, and a fair number of places that claim to "take care" of everything but don't.
"Suck it up" is heard here often as well, and that is generally about as good.
Sure, the OP looks like a troll. And no "program" seems in order so much as a good psychiatrist and perhaps a hospitalization. I don't know, and since the issue seems fictional, who cares one might say. But for the next question???
Oh really? Show me evidence that any program works at all.
:roll: We've been down this road. You cant custom tailor torture to a real problem to be therapy for it. You cant spin and bullshit me with it, TheWho tried and failed. Its nothing but bullshit regressional 'breaking' that fixes nothing, causes more problems down the road, and makes them lose out on some of the best years of their lives and the accompanying social development that comes with it by being kept in some hellhole institution filling them with rehashed new age nonsense from decades ago and using restraint as corporal punishment.
Ooohh ... that "you can't custom tailor torture to a real problem" bit .. means??? I bet oriental water torture would fix any of your problems, but of course you don't have any. Do tell me how much a teen gains by cutting virtually all classes, sneaking out, stealing, lying and using various drugs -- is that making them gain in the best years of their lives? Also please explain how to stop the behavior - even get the kid to stay home- without restricting what you view as the high and mighty "freedom". (Of course, that would be freedom to do as one wishes while snubbing parents except to demand financial support required by law or the like.)
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Ooh, we've got a live one here! Is this the first troll on the new board? From the sounds of it, it looks like one of the more desperate ones.
I'm not even going to bother with the whole "shut the hell up and be a parent" schtick. If he's doing all of those things repeatedly, you failed at that.
Send him to school.. at that point, why even bother? You can force him to go to school if you really want to but you can't make him learn anything. He probably won't graduate (in comparison, a TBS "graduation" means nothing except embarrassment) and his college chances are absolutely nil. There's no reason for him to stay and no reason to continue the charade; you might as well just pull him out.
If he's that determined to fuck himself up on drugs he WILL fuck himself up. If he's killing himself, a few run-ins with the cops will probably snap him out of it. You do know that the most popular thread on the Straight board here is the "I just smoked a huge bowl of pot" thread, don't you?
If he doesn't want to stay home, why make him? He's telling you loud and clear that he doesn't really need you anymore. Stop giving him money. (That last one can put an end to the drugs fairly fast, actually) Make it clear that any crimes against you will be met with, yes, cops. Give him food and shelter as, yes, required by law. You can still do that, right?
Bottom line: If he doesn't want to be your kid anymore, don't make him.
And then formally you let him go, as early as possible, and let him go grow up.
And if he ever comes back to you years later realizing how stupid he was and all the mistakes he made, you use all the money you saved by not sending him to some hellhole to send him to community college.
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Programs do work and thats a fact. A good program, therapist, atmosphere and support from a community of people that want to help sounds like a recipe for something good. The fact is not all doctors are good, not all mechanics are good but their not all bad either. Taking these kids out of their envirnment while they try to figure things out is really not a bad thing. the first part of healing is admitting you have a problem. Why wait until you hit rock bottom to realize it and get the help know. It's obvious you guys have had either a bad experience with a program you just don't like them. But like I said before, not all doctors are bad. One other thing, if a person did'nt have goog parenting, how do we expect them to parent. Another scary thought, how about the kids were talking about becoming parents. Now you can troll back.
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Programs do work and thats a fact.
Then by all means, cite your source for this "fact". Please show me the research (that does NOT mean parent surveys) that backs up this statement.
Taking these kids out of their envirnment while they try to figure things out is really not a bad thing.
Not in and of itself but when you combine it with forced treatment, isolation, coersion etc. not only makes it bad but dangerous.
the first part of healing is admitting you have a problem. Why wait until you hit rock bottom to realize it and get the help know.
:roll:
It's obvious you guys have had either a bad experience with a program you just don't like them. But like I said before, not all doctors are bad.
No comparison. The medical profession is not bad, some doctors are. The entire teen help methodology is fucked, based on fucked up games that a cult leader played with his followers. You can't make it into something good.
One other thing, if a person did'nt have goog parenting, how do we expect them to parent. Another scary thought, how about the kids were talking about becoming parents.
What the hell are you talking about? That's not written very clearly. Are you suggesting that kids will learn good parenting skills in these places? :o
Now you can troll back.
At least you admit what you are.
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Julie,
You aren't to the point where you might consider a program. You may be munching your words.
Your comment illustrates the cultish nature of The Program better than I could have ever done.
A normal parent criticizes you and you just assume that when their child is a teenager, they will "need" a program.
Ginger's right. You people do think that The Program is necessary for everyone, or nearly everyone, and that you must evangelize for it.
If you were rational and had a solid grip on reality, even if Programs worked you'd admit that the likelihood of a random child "needing" one as a teen are vanishingly small.
You might intellectually acknowledge that most parents of most teens have no need for The Program, but in your gut, the first thing you assume about a parent who criticizes you is that they will need The Program.
Lady*, your Reality Check just bounced.
Julie
* or dude, but your writing sounds feminine.
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The government statistics show that the best treatment for drug problems is community based care.
I had reminisced here about all the wild teenagers I'd seen and how they turned out okay, the kids who actually died and how they were garden variety teens and it was mostly bad luck, how the parents of wild children rode it out successfully with conventional parenting. It was too long, so I had to delete it.
Condensed version:
The ninnies among any generation of parents always believe that their kids' generation are the wildest generation in the history of the world. They're always wrong.
Ninnies make terrible parents.
Problem is, it's just about impossible to save a child from bad parents.
Keeping murderous parents from killing a child? Yeah, you can usually do that by removing the kids to another home.
But saving a child from garden variety bad parents? Just about impossible.
Some ninnies have enough money to harm their children, worse than average, by sending them to one of these Programs.
You can't educate ninnies out of being ninnies. The ignorant can be helped with education, but being a forty-year-old fool is virtually incurable.
That's why Programs need to be made illegal.
Julie
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:rofl: oh this is good shit.
The anon programmie cant post any proof a program works but say they do, and also tries to jsutify a useless program because a kid "isnt going anywhere" by cutting classes.
Theyre learning to SOCIALZE and HAVE FUN, and GROW UP, just not the way YOU want them to.
But yeah, you can custom tailor a nebulous 'program' that you cant name that works for a non existant problem and prove it with.... what?
Wishes and butts? Candy and nuts?
OH WHAT A WORLD IT WOULD BE!
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:rofl: oh this is good shit.
The anon programmie cant post any proof a program works but say they do, and also tries to jsutify a useless program because a kid "isnt going anywhere" by cutting classes.
Theyre learning to SOCIALZE and HAVE FUN, and GROW UP, just not the way YOU want them to.
But yeah, you can custom tailor a nebulous 'program' that you cant name that works for a non existant problem and prove it with.... what?
Wishes and butts? Candy and nuts?
OH WHAT A WORLD IT WOULD BE!
nihil .. after yoou get off th floor, pls say if u r goin to reply to the earlier " you can't custom tailor torture to a real problem" bit .. means??? also the "Do tell me how much a teen gains by cutting virtually all classes, sneaking out, stealing, lying and using various drugs -- is that making them gain in the best years of their lives? Also please explain how to stop the behavior - even get the kid to stay home- without restricting what you view as the high and mighty "freedom". (Of course, that would be freedom to do as one wishes while snubbing parents except to demand financial support required by law or the like.)
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So did you come up with any evidence that the programs are effective yet or are you going to continue to ignore the request?
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So did you come up with any evidence that the programs are effective yet or are you going to continue to ignore the request?
bt, dt
problem is u won't accept them
good studies on effectiveness of good wilderness programs done by established academician, but "the industry" [select programs subject of study] cooperated. so u figure study not good
other stuff mentioned by someone a few weeks ago got no counters
so, to repeat
bt, dt
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Links to those please. I'm not familiar with them and I'll decide on my own what I feel is qualified and reasonable thanks, but yes. If the camp commissioned the study, that would make it suspect.
I'll be waiting.
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All I'm saying is to have an open mind and give the good programs that are legitamite a break. I have personally witnessed the positive changes kids have made. We as a program do follow up on our kids for a year after treatment although not all are successful a good percentage are doing much better than pre treatment. As to my parenting quote, all I was implying was that something needs to be done because these kids will be parents one day and unless they are taught healthy behaviors they will fail as a parent.
Damn, these kids are surrounded by bad influences in this world wether it be in their home, friends, tv, parents, Radio, ect. Something needs to be done and if a parent won't do it than who ? Sure we can wait for them to become adults and they become incarcerated bacause we all know that incarceration will help better than an RTC. Wait, it's likely they will become productive members of society and live with their parents until they are 30 and finally figure it out themselves. SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.
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All I'm saying is to have an open mind and give the good programs that are legitamite a break.
I've yet to see one.
I have personally witnessed the positive changes kids have made. We as a program do follow up on our kids for a year after treatment although not all are successful a good percentage are doing much better than pre treatment.
Is this The Who? :lol: Who's to say it was due to your "treatment"? So I guess your answer to whether or not you can point to ANY evidence or research that says what you do works is a big fat no, huh? Hey, you're the one who said it, I just asked that you back it up with something. If you can't, just say so.
As to my parenting quote, all I was implying was that something needs to be done because these kids will be parents one day and unless they are taught healthy behaviors they will fail as a parent.
There are a lot of shitty parents out there. Are you suggesting that we remove all their kids and send them off to "camp"?
Damn, these kids are surrounded by bad influences in this world wether it be in their home, friends, tv, parents, Radio, ect. Something needs to be done and if a parent won't do it than who ?
Again, it appears that you're suggesting that someone forcibly remove these kids (and who would decide which parents are bad enough anyway).
Sure we can wait for them to become adults and they become incarcerated bacause we all know that incarceration will help better than an RTC.
While I understand you're being facetious, you have no idea how true that statement is.
Wait, it's likely they will become productive members of society and live with their parents until they are 30 and finally figure it out themselves.
Actually, most kids grow out of their destructive, impulsive behaviors.
SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.
What?
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***Hi guys, need some advice, my 12 year old has severe emotional problems. He goes beserk at anything and everything. He recently started a fire on purpose because i told him to stop playing video to eat dinner. We have tried therapy , inpatient , outpatient. My question for you guys is where do we go from here? ***
You might try changing your words and tone. You said you "told him to stop playing video to eat dinner".
Instead, how about announcing that dinner is ready and let him eat when HE's ready? "We're eating dinner, join us when you're ready". "We're done eating, would you like to make a plate before I put it away?" Kids aren't robots that respond to commands. It has never been realistic to expect that. They have their own needs that will frequently conflict with your wants. Show respect and you might receive respect.
Kids that age can be very emotional and dislike being 'bossed'. And rightfully so. Their whole life is about some adult telling them what to do, and when to do it. Get up on demand, eat on demand, pay attention to boring shit on demand, study boring shit on demand, show respect on demand, got to bed on demand. Get the picture? If you drop the demands, you might find that he's much less reactive (beserk).
Sending him to a program where there will be exponentially more of the same 24/7, where every thought/action is heavily judged and punished, is not a solution. While he may learn to perform, the anger will still be there only to surface later.
One fire does not a pyromanic make. Sounds like a release of emotion/tension, which he obvious has. Either way, set it up so that he has regular opportunities to make safe fires. If you over react to this, chances are good he will continue to do it because it gets a reaction from you. You're disrespect has caused a reaction in him, he's just modeling what you taught him by seeking a reaction from you.
Ultimately, you need to break the cycle of reacting to each other. Demonstrate some respect for him so he has less to react to. And yes, you can set some boundaries when necessary without all the emotion and disrespect. Lots of information about that. Start reading.
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***these kids will be parents one day and unless they are taught healthy behaviors they will fail as a parent.
Kids learn how to parent from their parents. No institution is going to teach that. Institutionalization teaches hopelessness. The parent can't/ won't figure out a different way to be with their kid, so the "problem" goes away to be fixed.
***Damn, these kids are surrounded by bad influences in this world wether it be in their home, friends, tv, parents, Radio, ect. Something needs to be done and if a parent won't do it than who ?
Institutions are unnatural. Growing up in an isolated bubble, away from the realities of the real world does not prepare one for dealing with those realities. If you weren't there to rescue parents, they may be forced to focus on their problems and find a humane solution.