Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Deborah on June 20, 2006, 05:00:00 PM
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Here's the challenge. A little informal 'study'.
For two months you eat nothing but rolled oats, rice, and lentils.
The first two weeks you must eat them uncooked.
Beginning the third week, you can cook them but may not add any salt or other condiment.
You'll eat this for all three meals.
Once a day you can throw in a carrot or apple
And of course, 2 quarts of water per day.
We'd like weekly, if not daily reports on how it's going, how you feel, etc.
Who's up for the challenge??
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LOL... These cowards are "do as I say, not as I do" types. I understand what you're driving at Deb, but the fact of the matter is that this is completely unacceptable to these people, but they have no problem inflicting it on their children.
Good luck getting volunteers... :lol:
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Now this would be interesting. If you make it through 3 weeks you will be amazed at how well you feel, it takes this long for your body to become completely cleansed of virtually all impurities. The rice needs to be rationed/ measured because you don?t want to bulk up too much during the process (I think it is under 1,200 calories/ Day). My room mate in college had a girlfriend who did this, (turned out she had an eating disorder), but after losing 10 pounds the balanced diet sustained her for 3 months and her weight leveled out. This is why I can not stomach lentils and garlic to this day; she had this on the stove constantly!
The major problem I see is it is one thing to do this in the woods when you are with a group, but if you are trying this at home with all kinds of foods around and driving past McDonalds etc. it will make it Very difficult. It would be easier to try this with other people so you can support each other in your efforts.
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Who, think about the point Deborah was trying to make with this challenge. These kids have their food severely limited while in the harshest of conditions most times. Little clothing and protection from the elements and the pittance they get has to be earned and can easily be taken away at the whim of the inexperienced counselor or group. Those not found to be line are often isolated within the isolation. They're shunned from the group for not behaving as expected. Not to mention the fact that these kids are in one of the major growth periods of their lives. The need good nutrition. But you're right. It would be easier to not have to deal with the temptation of McDonald's.
You know damn well what we're talking about and no matter how much information is put in front of you, even the most blatant and outright atrocities, you can't help trying to spin the shit out of it. I swear you remind me of the current administration.
You arrogant and obtuse man. ::fuckoff:: ::puke::
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you will have people who are severely constipated not to mention dehydrated. 2 quarts of water isnt enough.[ This Message was edited by: mbnh31782 on 2006-06-20 14:49 ]
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Who, think about the point Deborah was trying to make with this challenge. These kids have their food severely limited while in the harshest of conditions most times. Little clothing and protection from the elements and the pittance they get has to be earned and can easily be taken away at the whim of the inexperienced counselor or group. Those not found to be line are often isolated within the isolation. They're shunned from the group for not behaving as expected. Not to mention the fact that these kids are in one of the major growth periods of their lives. The need good nutrition. But you're right. It would be easier to not have to deal with the temptation of McDonald's.
Anon, you are wrong, no specific program was mentioned. I have experience with one wilderness program which is SUWS and they don?t do as you describe above. There may be other wilderness programs that are like you describe but if that is what you mean you have to be specific. Deborah never mentioned that the challenge was to isolate themselves and walk around with little clothing. I was trying to add to the challenge because I knew someone who had done that and some of the challenges that go along with it.
Why cant you see that instead of getting so angry. Go back and reread the challenge and read what I said, there is no arrogance. I was trying to be helpful.
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Two quarts seemed sufficient, given that Utah Licensing only requires a minimum of 3 in temps above 90*.
I know these people aren't hiking around the desert in +90* temps!!
"In temperatures above 90 degrees F., staff shall make sure consumer intake is a minimum of three quarts of water per day, electrolyte replacement shall be available with the expeditionary group at all times."
Who, no bitching and moaning about how hard it will be, either you're up for it or not. What a pansy, it's not like you have to march in blazing heat or sub zero temperatures, too. Or learn to build a fire before you can eat them cooked.
Doesn't matter that you don't like lentils. Some kids have never even seen a lentil, and sure as hell don't 'like' them. If you don't like lentils, guess you're limited to oats and rice. But, you won't get the full effect of the challenge- eating things you don't like.
Ya think it's any easier for them cause they're in the woods? If you need a support group, get Karen and few others and start one up. Bitch amongst yourselves. Not here.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-06-20 15:37 ]
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***I have experience with one wilderness program which is SUWS and they don?t do as you describe above.
It's your word against many, who actually experienced it.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... art=0&Sort (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=6233&forum=14&start=0&Sort)
Here's a couple of descriptive ones:
I was in Aspen's wilderness program in southern Utah for 2 1/2 months in the winter 0f 1994. I was subjected to long periods of forced fasting, and solitary placement, as well as malnourished severely. It doesn't surprise me to hear people say that they save money by skimping on the kids, because when I was there, we didn't even have real backpacks; we were forced to carry around tarps wrapped up with seatbelt straps on our shoulders, always at weights above 80 pounds.
? witholding of food and water to physical restraints all the way to serious danger from exposure and exhaustion. I was in no way an easy kid to deal with at that time, but I was also detoxing from a serious Herion and Cocaine problem, and was denied any type of medical assitance. Other members of my group who refused to eat or drink would still be marched up to and exceeding 10 miles a day, and many of them collapsed and were injured. On a solo period a boy in my group was cooking unsupervised with pork fat and received 3rd degree burns on his legs and pelvis. When I collapsed on the second day from lack of food(they give you no food for the first 72nd-ish hours), I was dragged by my backpack (which consisted of nothing more than a tarp tied together with a seatbelt strap, and weighing 100lbs.) for almost a mile over rocks and through dessert plants and the occasional stream, and all of this while only weighing 120lbs. myself
There are many more where that came from. Search WWF for SUWS.
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On 2006-06-20 15:24:00, TheWho wrote:
Anon, you are wrong, no specific program was mentioned. I have experience with one wilderness program which is SUWS and they don?t do as you describe above. There may be other wilderness programs that are like you describe but if that is what you mean you have to be specific. Deborah never mentioned that the challenge was to isolate themselves and walk around with little clothing. I was trying to add to the challenge because I knew someone who had done that and some of the challenges that go along with it.
Why cant you see that instead of getting so angry. Go back and reread the challenge and read what I said, there is no arrogance. I was trying to be helpful.
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No you weren't, you're just passive agressive. You remind me of my step-mother. You're well aware of the various types of programs that many of us here have been through, the trauma it's inflicted on us etc. You should know that there is a big difference in you being able to go about your normal life and choose to do this little experiment and the kids who have no choice in the matter and are doing it under completely different circumstances. You just enjoy how people get riled up at your refusal to see anything that we're talking about. When you first came on here I did have some respect for you even though we completely disagreed on most points but now I see you for what you are. I should have just stopped at your steadfast refusal to see what went on at Star Ranch (I think that's the name). If you can't even acknowledge that then there's really no point in continuing.
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On 2006-06-20 15:35:00, Deborah wrote:
"Two quarts seemed sufficient, given that Utah Licensing only requires a minimum of 3 in temps above 90*.
I know these people aren't hiking around the desert in +90* temps!!
"In temperatures above 90 degrees F., staff shall make sure consumer intake is a minimum of three quarts of water per day, electrolyte replacement shall be available with the expeditionary group at all times."
Who, no bitching and moaning about how hard it will be, either you're up for it or not. What a pansy, it's not like you have to march in blazing heat or sub zero temperatures, too. Or learn to build a fire before you can eat them cooked.
Doesn't matter that you don't like lentils. Some kids have never even seen a lentil, and sure as hell don't 'like' them. If you don't like lentils, guess you're limited to oats and rice. But, you won't get the full effect of the challenge- eating things you don't like.
Ya think it's any easier for them cause they're in the woods? If you need a support group, get Karen and few others and start one up. Bitch amongst yourselves. Not here.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-06-20 15:37 ]"
Ha,Ha, thats funny. I think you missed my post. It must be the moon, everyone is so confrontational today. We never got as far as when and who was doing the challenge. Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation. As a minimum I would like to learn to start a fire from scratch
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Douse yourself in gasoline and light a match.
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On 2006-06-20 16:08:00, TheWho wrote:
Ha,Ha, thats funny. I think you missed my post. It must be the moon, everyone is so confrontational today. We never got as far as when and who was doing the challenge. Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation. As a minimum I would like to learn to start a fire from scratch
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One of the main objectives in these places is to let the kids know they're not in charge. They're purposely taken down a peg or two. It's not to go learn to start fires, get close to the other kids, do any soul searching or any other of the fucking touchy feely descriptives you want to use. It's about showing the kids whos boss, period.
Who, there's no way in hell you could even begin to comprehend what we went through. You lack the capacity.
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I understand that people were hurt in the past (12 years ago) and there is nothing funny about it and you see it as my word against many, but it is clearly not the case.
Deborah and anon you can name any institution from a church to a school to a business and someone can come up with testimonials of abuse or how the school hurt them. We all know that, we are not playing dumb. I admit that abuses happen and the schools need to continually improve and change. What continues to amaze me is that no one acknowledges the good the school has done for so many, It has to be black and white with you.
Even though it is statistically nearly impossible for these institutions to continue to thrive and grow without ever producing success and no one here can see that just one kid has benefited. We continue to hear , oh the parents a duped, don?t know whats going on?.their kids are being abused but wont tell them?.etc
If someone does do well , we hear , wait a few years it will change. This is your out so you don?t have to deal with a success story or you produce a fornits link to person who had a bad experience 12 years ago. I make lite of the conversation sometimes because it seems crazy to me that everyone truly believes that every kid is handcuffed and chained and dragged off to these programs, abused and no kids are coming forward, every program is the same to you.
If someone mentions an improvement in a particular program there is no interest, if someone kills themselves fornits lights up like a 5 cent slot machine, go figure, shows where the interest is and how many are serious about helping the kids.
So if you see me laugh it is out of frustration that many of you are stuck in neutral and don?t seem to care about the kids out there that need help.
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***Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation.
Wrong, no one suggested that be part of the challenge. The details were simple. You either choose to experience a small sampling of what your child went through or you wimp out.
If you're wimping out, why?
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One of the main objectives in these places is to let the kids know they're not in charge. They're purposely taken down a peg or two. It's not to go learn to start fires, get close to the other kids, do any soul searching or any other of the fucking touchy feely descriptives you want to use. It's about showing the kids whos boss, period.
Who, there's no way in hell you could even begin to comprehend what we went through. You lack the capacity.
So you are really trying to make us believe that when the business plan went in for approval the starters of the business said ?lets figure out a way to make ourselves look big and feel in charge and maybe take kids down a peg or 2 and make money at the same time, maybe we will make them build fires and deprive them of food so we can sit around and laugh while we charge their parents?
and you believe that is their goal?
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On 2006-06-20 16:45:00, Deborah wrote:
"***Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation.
Wrong, no one suggested that be part of the challenge. The details were simple. You either choose to experience a small sampling of what your child went through or you wimp out.
If you're wimping out, why? "
Okay, I'm in. How many do we need in the study to make it meaningful would you think? Minimum sample sizes are typically 13 if I remember correctly.
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And I continue to be amazed at your refusal to see that these programs are fucked FROM THE INCEPTION!!! Yes, some kids are able to come through it relatively unscathed but that does not negate the vast majority, IMO, that have been harmed. I'v e stated a couple of times just in the past few days that it's not just the physical abuse. There are programs where that doesn't seem to be a problem but that doesn't mean they're helpful or even safe. The damage that was the most difficult for me to deal with came from the emotional and mental abuse. I was never beaten but I sure was fucked up for years afterward. There are 5 other people that went to the same place I did at the same time that I still stay in touch with. Two are family members. One has been married 5 times, she's 40. Her brother has two kids that he won't let out of his sight, literally. They (15 and 12) are not allowed to spend the night anywhere including with family members. A couple that met in there are both considered very successful. Both nurses, raising two kids, nice house, well respected etc. After 10 years of marriage it comes out that the husband has been seeing hookers once or twice a week the entire marriage and the wife decided 5 years ago that she was gay and began affairs with her friends. The last has been in and out of jail or rehab since getting out over 20 years ago. The point in telling you about all these people is that the damage from these places manifests itself in many different forms. The nursing couple I spoke of have both been 'sober' ever since getting out 20+ years ago. The program people consider them a great success. Never mind that they were so traumatized by what happened in there that their lives have completely fallen apart....they're sober dammit! It worked, damned the price.
I've spent the last 20 years trying to figure out what I did that was so god awful that I needed to be sent away for 2 years. Trying to live up to some unrealistic idea of the perfect child taht my parents had and that was reinforced in that place. It absolutely destroyed my family in so many ways that I didn't even begin to understand until about 5 years ago. You dont understand taht this is one of the most important periods in a person's development. You start mucking around inside their head and you're playing with fire.
It's not just a decade or more ago. It's happening now, all the time. You've been here long enough to see the recent reports of deaths at the various camps.
Obtuse. ::noway::
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On 2006-06-20 16:49:00, TheWho wrote:
So you are really trying to make us believe that when the business plan went in for approval the starters of the business said ?lets figure out a way to make ourselves look big and feel in charge and maybe take kids down a peg or 2 and make money at the same time, maybe we will make them build fires and deprive them of food so we can sit around and laugh while we charge their parents?
and you believe that is their goal?
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No, what I'm saying is that people like Ken Kay, Miller Newton and the like have some sick messaiah complex. They thrive on being viewed as the savior, the guru, the all knowing. They also have incredible egos and do enjoy showing people that they're in charge, they're number 1 and they enjoy proving that when challenged. Teens, especially in these circumstances, will push and challenge. These 'gurus' sell themselves as having 'the cure', the 'solution'.....they alone have what you need. The amount of power and control they wield over not just the kids lives but the entire family is quite intoxicating. I've seen it up close. Watched leaders rise up in the ranks and get better and better at what they do. Unfortunately that means they become more and more dangerous.
You don't get it and I hold out little hope that you ever will.
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You're lying, manipulating, and distracting from the topic, and that slot machine comment was just down right rude.
No more rice. Guess you're down to oats.
Search SUWS for recent accounts. And don't come back with how they've 'changed' all that. The truth is, you are not in a position to claim that they have changed a thing. In fact, you can't say with any degree of certainty exactly what your daughter experienced. You weren't there. And for that matter, you can not fathom how she might think of it five years down the road.
Just a tip- kids are reluctant to talk about abusive and humiliating things that have happened to them with anyone they don't trust, especially parents who are gung-ho program.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-06-20 17:29 ]
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They also might really buy into it and not understand what was done to them for a number of years depending on how deeply the surrounding family has drunk from the Kool Aid pitcher. For a long time after I got out I thought I deserved what I got. After all, I was a rebellious teen, right? I excused away all the horrible things that were said and done to me in there as part of the 'process' of getting me straightened out. It honestly wasn't until I had significant time away from that kind of thinking that I really began to understand what I had been through.
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On 2006-06-20 16:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And I continue to be amazed at your refusal to see that these programs are fucked FROM THE INCEPTION!!! Yes, some kids are able to come through it relatively unscathed but that does not negate the vast majority, IMO, that have been harmed. I'v e stated a couple of times just in the past few days that it's not just the physical abuse. There are programs where that doesn't seem to be a problem but that doesn't mean they're helpful or even safe. The damage that was the most difficult for me to deal with came from the emotional and mental abuse. I was never beaten but I sure was fucked up for years afterward. There are 5 other people that went to the same place I did at the same time that I still stay in touch with. Two are family members. One has been married 5 times, she's 40. Her brother has two kids that he won't let out of his sight, literally. They (15 and 12) are not allowed to spend the night anywhere including with family members. A couple that met in there are both considered very successful. Both nurses, raising two kids, nice house, well respected etc. After 10 years of marriage it comes out that the husband has been seeing hookers once or twice a week the entire marriage and the wife decided 5 years ago that she was gay and began affairs with her friends. The last has been in and out of jail or rehab since getting out over 20 years ago. The point in telling you about all these people is that the damage from these places manifests itself in many different forms. The nursing couple I spoke of have both been 'sober' ever since getting out 20+ years ago. The program people consider them a great success. Never mind that they were so traumatized by what happened in there that their lives have completely fallen apart....they're sober dammit! It worked, damned the price.
I've spent the last 20 years trying to figure out what I did that was so god awful that I needed to be sent away for 2 years. Trying to live up to some unrealistic idea of the perfect child taht my parents had and that was reinforced in that place. It absolutely destroyed my family in so many ways that I didn't even begin to understand until about 5 years ago. You dont understand taht this is one of the most important periods in a person's development. You start mucking around inside their head and you're playing with fire.
It's not just a decade or more ago. It's happening now, all the time. You've been here long enough to see the recent reports of deaths at the various camps.
Obtuse. ::noway:: "
That?s what I mean?. relatively unscathed? is about the best case scenario most see here. I am just one person and I have witnessed several kids who turned completely around and are doing great. I realize that there are places that abuse kids physically and mentally. I also admit that I am not familiar with these places so I accept peoples account of them and I do not discard their experiences. It seems TBS are different than the other RTCs because the accounts of mental and physical abuse don?t seem to be prevalent in TBS as they are in other places i.e. army camps, boot camps, RTC?s. It seems to me that maybe there should be a distinction made between some of these places, maybe categorize them differently, they are not all bad places and they are not all the same.
I here of broken bones, days in isolation, lack of food, kids trying to commit suicide, slamming their heads into the ground, counselors abusing the kids, jumping out of windows to escape, kids being dragged out of their house etc. and I believe this occurs, but they don?t occur at every TBS or maybe none. ASR is so different than the stories you read here but all the stories fall on deaf ears.
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No, what I'm saying is that people like Ken Kay, Miller Newton and the like have some sick messaiah complex. They thrive on being viewed as the savior, the guru, the all knowing. They also have incredible egos and do enjoy showing people that they're in charge, they're number 1 and they enjoy proving that when challenged. Teens, especially in these circumstances, will push and challenge. These 'gurus' sell themselves as having 'the cure', the 'solution'.....they alone have what you need. The amount of power and control they wield over not just the kids lives but the entire family is quite intoxicating. I've seen it up close. Watched leaders rise up in the ranks and get better and better at what they do. Unfortunately that means they become more and more dangerous.
Yes, that I can believe and if the power goes unchecked and unchallenged then it can become dangerous. People should be forced to rotate in and out of the power positions so this doesn?t occur or serve only so many years, I see what you are saying, good point.
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On 2006-06-20 17:27:00, TheWho wrote:
That?s what I mean?. relatively unscathed? is about the best case scenario most see here.
It's about the best we can hope for.
I am just one person and I have witnessed several kids who turned completely around and are doing great.
Just like all the program parents I know thought that the two nurses had completely turned their lives around. They looked like the perfect advertisement for the place. Little did everyone know.
I realize that there are places that abuse kids physically and mentally. I also admit that I am not familiar with these places so I accept peoples account of them and I do not discard their experiences. It seems TBS are different than the other RTCs because the accounts of mental and physical abuse don?t seem to be prevalent in TBS as they are in other places i.e. army camps, boot camps, RTC?s. It seems to me that maybe there should be a distinction made between some of these places, maybe categorize them differently, they are not all bad places and they are not all the same.
They all use the same basic methodology that all therapeutic communities use....from Synanon. It's flawed from the inception. This is getting redundant.
I here of broken bones, days in isolation, lack of food, kids trying to commit suicide, slamming their heads into the ground, counselors abusing the kids, jumping out of windows to escape, kids being dragged out of their house etc. and I believe this occurs, but they don?t occur at every TBS or maybe none. ASR is so different than the stories you read here but all the stories fall on deaf ears.
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Yes, well you've also heard me state several times that I wasn't beaten but the psychological effects were far worse IMO (levels, seminars, LGATs etc). That little tidbit seems to have fallen on your deaf ears.
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On 2006-06-20 17:34:00, TheWho wrote:
Yes, that I can believe and if the power goes unchecked and unchallenged then it can become dangerous. People should be forced to rotate in and out of the power positions so this doesn?t occur or serve only so many years, I see what you are saying, good point.
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But it doesn't happen. Just like politics the ones who want to be in charge are the one's who should NEVER be in charge. They just keep changing names, places or whatever else will get the heat off then continue on business as usual.
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On 2006-06-20 17:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-06-20 17:27:00, TheWho wrote:
That?s what I mean?. relatively unscathed? is about the best case scenario most see here.
It's about the best we can hope for.
I am just one person and I have witnessed several kids who turned completely around and are doing great.
Just like all the program parents I know thought that the two nurses had completely turned their lives around. They looked like the perfect advertisement for the place. Little did everyone know.
I realize that there are places that abuse kids physically and mentally. I also admit that I am not familiar with these places so I accept peoples account of them and I do not discard their experiences. It seems TBS are different than the other RTCs because the accounts of mental and physical abuse don?t seem to be prevalent in TBS as they are in other places i.e. army camps, boot camps, RTC?s. It seems to me that maybe there should be a distinction made between some of these places, maybe categorize them differently, they are not all bad places and they are not all the same.
They all use the same basic methodology that all therapeutic communities use....from Synanon. It's flawed from the inception. This is getting redundant.
I here of broken bones, days in isolation, lack of food, kids trying to commit suicide, slamming their heads into the ground, counselors abusing the kids, jumping out of windows to escape, kids being dragged out of their house etc. and I believe this occurs, but they don?t occur at every TBS or maybe none. ASR is so different than the stories you read here but all the stories fall on deaf ears.
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Yes, well you've also heard me state several times that I wasn't beaten but the psychological effects were far worse IMO (levels, seminars, LGATs etc). That little tidbit seems to have fallen on your deaf ears."
Well I guess we are at different ends of a normal curve. But that is okay, everyone has to follow what they believe and I respect your position. Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools and more and more kids benefiting from them.
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On 2006-06-20 17:42:00, TheWho wrote:
Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools and more and more kids benefiting from them."
Nice dreams. :smokin:
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On 2006-06-20 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-06-20 17:42:00, TheWho wrote:
Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools and more and more kids benefiting from them."
Nice dreams. :smokin: "
Yeah, I know, but someone has to take the high road.
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On 2006-06-20 17:47:00, TheWho wrote:
Yeah, I know, but someone has to take the high road."
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
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***It seems TBS are different than the other RTCs because the accounts of mental and physical abuse don?t seem to be prevalent in TBS as they are in other places i.e. army camps, boot camps, RTC?s.
No they're not. I know you've read the HLA forum, sister school to ASR. They work very hard to set themselves apart from the low-dollar facilities.
I'm embarassed to admit, that they even had me convinced for a while that they might be 'better'. And while they are somewhat better than say, Tranquility Bay, they're just more covert with their abuses. The same methods and techniques are at work in all of these programs, because they all sprouted from the same seed.
And yes, I do believe those who start these programs think that way. They follow the leader, a pattern or industry blueprint. Most cut their teeth working in some other program. They aren't looking at new research and improving- although I do believe they improve their methods of deceiving parents and abusing children when they congregate at association meetings. As parents get wiser, they must get more wiley. They make small concessions if/when their customers (parents- more than a few) demand it. They know what they have to do to break these kids.
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On 2006-06-20 16:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-06-20 16:08:00, TheWho wrote:
Ha,Ha, thats funny. I think you missed my post. It must be the moon, everyone is so confrontational today. We never got as far as when and who was doing the challenge. Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation. As a minimum I would like to learn to start a fire from scratch
"
One of the main objectives in these places is to let the kids know they're not in charge. They're purposely taken down a peg or two. It's not to go learn to start fires, get close to the other kids, do any soul searching or any other of the fucking touchy feely descriptives you want to use. It's about showing the kids whos boss, period.
Who, there's no way in hell you could even begin to comprehend what we went through. You lack the capacity."
u really dont get it
maybe part of the idea at some places is to show whos boss, but that isnt the only or even the main idea
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On 2006-06-20 17:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
u really dont get it
maybe part of the idea at some places is to show whos boss, but that isnt the only or even the main idea"
Oh I get it all too well sweetie. :roll: You bet your ass it's one of the main objectives. They'll never say that but the idea is to take out of control Johnny and turn him into a tame child creature (all hail Zappa). You gotta break 'em to do that.
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On 2006-06-20 17:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-06-20 17:47:00, TheWho wrote:
Yeah, I know, but someone has to take the high road."
What the hell is that supposed to mean? "
High road, Fight the underdogs battle, stand up for the kids and ensure they have options and places to go (other than the streets) if things don?t work out at home. Improve upon what we have?..move forward, do good ?..what?s morally right ?.
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On 2006-06-20 18:09:00, TheWho wrote:
High road, Fight the underdogs battle, stand up for the kids and ensure they have options and places to go (other than the streets) if things don?t work out at home. Improve upon what we have?..move forward, do good ?..what?s morally right ?."
Oh, I see now. You were being a condescending prick. OK. Just wanted to clear that up.
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On 2006-06-20 18:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-06-20 18:09:00, TheWho wrote:
High road, Fight the underdogs battle, stand up for the kids and ensure they have options and places to go (other than the streets) if things don?t work out at home. Improve upon what we have?..move forward, do good ?..what?s morally right ?."
Oh, I see now. You were being a condescending prick. OK. Just wanted to clear that up."
Why, is it only okay for you to be that way?
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On 2006-06-20 18:42:00, TheWho wrote:
Why, is it only okay for you to be that way?"
I haven't been that way at all in the past two days that I've been posting here. Other anons may have, but I didn't. I've watched your passive-agressive comments all over the place and still maintained my civility. You're high road comment put my tolerance for bullshit over the edge.
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u really dont get it
maybe part of the idea at some places is to show whos boss, but that isnt the only or even the main idea.
I think it's the foundation of the program. If the program didn't establish that they were the ultimate authority (boss) kids would be walking out by the droves. Without that foundation, there wouldn't be a program. It's fundamental.
In order to do that they limit contact with the parents. Tell the kid that their parents support the wacked shit they are doing. Call the parent and work out any concerns ahead of time so they have the parent's unwavering support on the next monitored call. Parent is warned to expect 'outrageous' stories.
Kid trys to talk about what's really happening and they call "manipulation". The call is ended if the kid doesn't change the subject.
They pit parent against child, for months before any real contact is reestablished.
The kid is being conditioned not to report anything negative, and the parent is being schooled on the program definition of manipulation and the importance of narcing on their kid. Everytime the parent narcs, it is further reinforced that the program is the ultimate authority over the kid.
It really is a very clever and effective method of establishing authority- who's boss- but nothing new or unique.
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On 2006-06-20 19:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-20 18:42:00, TheWho wrote:
Why, is it only okay for you to be that way?"
I haven't been that way at all in the past two days that I've been posting here. Other anons may have, but I didn't. I've watched your passive-agressive comments all over the place and still maintained my civility. You're high road comment put my tolerance for bullshit over the edge."
Your continuous narrow view that all schools are alike and the best any kid could ever do is survive, put my tolerance for bs over the top. You have blinders on, you cant even see how arrogant your own posts are.
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On 2006-06-20 19:36:00, TheWho wrote:
Your continuous narrow view that all schools are alike and the best any kid could ever do is survive, put my tolerance for bs over the top. You have blinders on, you cant even see how arrogant your own posts are."
I have no blinders on. I can look at this from both perspectives. Can you? No. You were never subjected to the kinds of things that myself and these kids have and continue to be. You couldn't possibly begin to fathom what we're talking about.
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And I must have hit a nerve with you somewhere cause you usually don't let people get under your skin. ::nod:: :lol:
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I understand that people were hurt in the past (12 years ago) and there is nothing funny about it and you see it as my word against many, but it is clearly not the case.
But that is the thing. Kids are still claiming that they are being hurt today! It does not seem to me that much has changed since Michelle Sutton and Aaron Bacon died! Every few months a kid in some facility seems to be dying. It is just NOT good enough to say that the kid was difficult or that it was a horrible acident when it is so frequent. It does not seem that there has been a change to the culture. A kid says they are unwell and they do not go to a medical professional who can make an independent diognisis, but get into trouble for lying. Many expensive reputable programmes talk openly of addressing "manipulation" without even defining what that is!
Aside from the deaths there seems to be a myriad of unhappy customers! Most of these are kids who are meant to have a geat time & come back fixed. There also seems to be a pretty devil may care attitude to the kids complaints!
As to those at the top. There is probably not conspiracy to torture kids, it is more that they dont give a shit. As long as the cash keeps rolling in! If this means employing someone with no experience of kids who is willing to work for bubkis then so be it. If it means feding kids cheap crap food to save a back they will do it!
If it means inventing some kooky levels system so that a kid can misbehave their way into a few more months "treatment" or better still recommending that the kid go from wildreness therapy straight to their gulag scool then all the better!
lets not forget Michelle Sutton wanted to go to a Wilderness camp. As soon as she realised that it was her worst nightmare she asked to call her mum and go home! At least part of the reason why she could not was that it would cost them the 15k her mum shelled out!
You say that was 15 years ago but which camp today lets a kid call home & tell mum that it is their worst night mare without accusing them of "manipulation"?
From where i sit as an accountant it would be a rare programme that does, because there is too much cash to be lost! perhaps the business end of these places does not torture kids for fun but if it happens along the way to a profit i dont see any of them exactly shedding any tears!
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The Who wrote:
"Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools..."
We have seen the "fruits" from these programs - that's why this site and so many other survivor and watchdog sites exist, Who. Don't you get it?
The fruit of misbegotten conception is rotten, plain and simple. Some of the "fruits" include PTSD, feelings of inadequacy, dependence, depression, social difficulties, continuing or worsening psychological pathology and suicide. We already know the results, Who. We don't agree with you based on relative merit not inexperience or lack of awareness.
Due to the fact that you are one of least experienced, least educated and least aware people on this board, your commentary on these issues comes across as the arrogance of dismissal of the viewpoints of those who know better than what you're pitching.
This is why people get frustrated with your dogmatism. You continually tell people not to believe their eyes, ears and personal history, but to believe your uneducated, inexperienced opinion based on anecdotes from a support group for program parents. Let's face facts, the only programs you know anything at all about are SUWS and ASR and what you know about how they administer their treatment is based solely on anecdotal missives of your child and some other program parents.
Stop trying to tell people who have direct experience with the industry how it is because your responses are the widely-known, widely-employed talking points of the programs and anyone who has direct experience already knows that they bear little resemblence to reality.
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As to those at the top. There is probably not conspiracy to torture kids, it is more that they dont give a shit. As long as the cash keeps rolling in! If this means employing someone with no experience of kids who is willing to work for bubkis then so be it. If it means feding kids cheap crap food to save a back they will do it!
If it means inventing some kooky levels system so that a kid can misbehave their way into a few more months "treatment" or better still recommending that the kid go from wildreness therapy straight to their gulag scool then all the better!
Spot on. Dead on the money.
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On 2006-06-21 05:27:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
The Who wrote:
"Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools..."
We have seen the "fruits" from these programs - that's why this site and so many other survivor and watchdog sites exist, Who. Don't you get it?
The fruit of misbegotten conception is rotten, plain and simple. Some of the "fruits" include PTSD, feelings of inadequacy, dependence, depression, social difficulties, continuing or worsening psychological pathology and suicide. We already know the results, Who. We don't agree with you based on relative merit not inexperience or lack of awareness.
Due to the fact that you are one of least experienced, least educated and least aware people on this board, your commentary on these issues comes across as the arrogance of dismissal of the viewpoints of those who know better than what you're pitching.
This is why people get frustrated with your dogmatism. You continually tell people not to believe their eyes, ears and personal history, but to believe your uneducated, inexperienced opinion based on anecdotes from a support group for program parents. Let's face facts, the only programs you know anything at all about are SUWS and ASR and what you know about how they administer their treatment is based solely on anecdotal missives of your child and some other program parents.
Stop trying to tell people who have direct experience with the industry how it is because your responses are the widely-known, widely-employed talking points of the programs and anyone who has direct experience already knows that they bear little resemblence to reality.
"
Well okay, DJ, what is your experience with SUWS and ASR? and which programs did you attend again?
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-06-21 05:43 ]
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Well, I'll tell you again...
I have six years of college education in psychology and social work and nearly a decade of experience working in the field.
I worked for two "programs," one of which is the largest and oldest one in existence and the other is widely regarded as the "model" for all "TBS's." ASR is based directly upon HLA and it's treatment methods, philosophy and "founding father" are well known to me personally.
My point is that I am trained and educated to evaluate and critique treatment programs. I read studies about them, have had dozens of clients with experience with them (including a few that attended SUWS) and generally have a solid, reality-based understanding of how they work and the model upon which they are based.
You, on the other hand, clearly and demonstrably have no concept of the following:
-the treatment model
-the effectiveness
-the side-effects
-the players in the industry
-the research surrounding these "schools"
...and many, many more - but I need not waste my time explaining this again, for the umpteenth time.
Are you going to tell me that we're on equal footing here? You, a completely uneducated program parent and me a licensed therapist with thousands of hours working inside facilities and with their participants? If that is what you are trying to imply, you are a woefully ignorant fellow.
Every time you open your maw to opine on the industry your pathetic utterances reveal the aforementioned facts and everybody knows it but you. Are you always the last one to know, or do you just never "get it"?
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On 2006-06-21 06:32:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"Why compare qualifications with a person who continues to ignore postings by survivors of the abuses at ASR and SUWS?
Seems like a waste of time to me. TheWho is just not willing to hear the truth, or is just very selective in what truth he wants to hear. This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Adolph Hitler
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True indeed, but I feel like I need to refute his nonsense periodically for the benefit of those who don't have the time or energy to read the previous refutations (the hundreds of them) on other threads.
This guy is as obtuse and ignorant as they come, but it would be a disservice to those of ungelled opinions to allow his nonsense to go unchallenged, lest it become defacto reinforcement of the sales pitches they've heard from the programs.
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What you feel the need to do periodically is to make sure everyone knows your wonderful qualifications to be an asshole.
Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? You seem to be in attack mode. It seems that you have been very quiet about HLA lately? Did someone slap your wrist? Did Stevie get in trouble?
Oops- Stevie feels insecure so it is time to drag out the Karen-stuff again.
You are so transparent, Steve. What a joke.
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Well okay, DJ, what is your experience with SUWS and ASR? and which programs did you attend again?
Well I read your posts and to boil it down, you have no experience with these two programs by your own accord and have never attended any program what so ever.
I think most of us knew this but we just wanted to hear it from you.
We all have been educated to some degree and most of us know the programs first hand and know people who have attended them.
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It seems that you have been very quiet about HLA lately? Did someone slap your wrist?
Not at all. The legal process is working - the wheels grind slowly as the saying goes.
Being exposed as ignorants really makes some of you angry. Look to yourself and correct your deficiencies. Why get all testy with me? You should be mad at yourself for being unable to respond intelligently and having to resort to raw speculations and completely false accusations. You only demean yourself.
Refute what I say or move on. I didn't attack you - I don't even know who you are (just as you don't know me). Why are you so heavily invested in me personally? Just because you can't support an argument? Pretty silly and childish. Grow up, log in and get a grip.
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On 2006-06-21 07:25:00, TheWho wrote:
"Well okay, DJ, what is your experience with SUWS and ASR? and which programs did you attend again?
Well I read your posts and to boil it down, you have no experience with these two programs by your own accord and have never attended any program what so ever.
I think most of us knew this but we just wanted to hear it from you.
We all have been educated to some degree and most of us know the programs first hand and know people who have attended them."
I have no experience taking complaints from callers either, but I don't try to challenge your area of expertise, do I? I leave customer service to you, leave the heavy lifting to me. You're just not qualified to assess the programs by education or experience.
Once again, I have worked thousands of hours inside of programs and with clients who needed real care after being in them.
You have how many years of experience working inside programs? Ah, yes, none. You have what education in mental health? Oops, none again. You are licensed to practice therapy? Uh, no again.
C'mon, Who, you're not fooling anyone here.
Here's your MO:
"Blather, rinse, repeat."
You're like a broken record. You have absolutely no qualifications whatsoever to make judgements about mental hygiene, Who. Let's just leave it at that.
Let's move on.
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"This guy is as obtuse and ignorant as they come,"
Sorry DJ, you are attacking him. You always do.[ This Message was edited by: wild fig on 2006-06-21 07:38 ]
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Okay, DJ, why do you get so angry when someone talks about your qualifications? Are you presently working in the field or did they reject your expertise? Is that why you keep attacking everyone?
Everyone on fornits has equal footing, you are not above anyone here. If you truly want to have everyone view only your opinion you should start a Blog. Then no one can challenge your position and you may be happier and able to keep your anger in check. You really need to learn that you merely hold one opinion/ one position and there are many others who are just as passionate as you are, try to get use to it and debate the issues like the educated person you claim to be.
You make statements based on assumptions, like you believe I work in Customer Service. I don?t work in Customer Service, although they do work a heck of a lot harder than I do and serve an important function and collectively add more value to our companies than I do on a daily bases.
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On 2006-06-21 07:36:00, wild fig wrote:
"
"This guy is as obtuse and ignorant as they come,"
Sorry DJ, you are attacking him. You always do.[ This Message was edited by: wild fig on 2006-06-21 07:38 ]"
I'm sure he's a nice enough guy but his being ignorant and obtuse are observations about his own statements. I'm just pointing it out.
Those are my conclusions based on his statements, not his person.
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DJ,
You often attack the person. I guess I could spend the afternoon digging up your posts but I disinclined to pour through all of your rantings and ravings. Two examples that do come to mind: your obvious distaste for women in general and your chauvinistic response to one poster- you called that person an hysterical housewife and then accused that person of being a drunk- and, your tasteless racial slurs. Those are just two examples I remember seeing that were truly personal.
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You really need to learn that you merely hold one opinion/ one position and there are many others who are just as passionate as you are...
You sound just like the people who believe in intelligent design or that the world is flat.
What you fail to recognize is that my "opinion," as you state, is the prevailing view of professionals around the world, just like evolution and the spherical globe.
Sure, you have crackpots that state otherwise based on no facts or evidence whatsoever and in complete contradiction to established scientific fact. Those people are wrong, just as you are.
"Passion" has no bearing on fact. I understand that you want to make it an emotional event when you try to argue your point, exactly as programs do. You (and they) appeal to the lower brain with emotional anecdotes that wither under scientific scrutiny. Again, I'm sorry, but your opinion and emotional appeals don't hold water. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will continue to trust my own education and experience and the prepondrance of the established evidence.
Everyone on fornits has equal footing...
This is as obvious a fallacy as you've ever posted. Is this really what you believe? C'mon, Who, get real. This is completely nonsensical.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-21 08:31 ]
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WHO: I am a woman, and a housewife, and I have read most of DJ's postings--and I don't have the opinion that he dislikes or insults women.
You DO NOT SPEAK for us women-folk.
So, speak for yourself, OK?
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On 2006-06-21 08:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WHO: I am a woman, and a housewife, and I have read most of DJ's postings--and I don't have the opinion that he dislikes or insults women.
You DO NOT SPEAK for us women-folk.
So, speak for yourself, OK?"
I wrote that, not Who. And, I wasn't speaking for you only myself.
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Thanks, I knew what you meant[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-06-21 09:15 ]
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DJ Wrote:
What you fail to recognize is that my "opinion," as you state, is the prevailing view of professionals around the world, just like evolution and the spherical globe.
Like evolution and the spherical globe, hmmm.
Wow, you are full of yourself. You are so wrong, you cant see beyond your own nose.
The overwhelming majority of professionals believe these schools are making a big difference in these kids lives and are responsible for turning them around and getting them on track. The professionals are the ones recommending these places, DJ, many cant be accepted without their consent. Pull your head out of HLA long enough to look around.
Sure, you have crackpots that state otherwise based on no facts or evidence whatsoever and in complete contradiction to established scientific fact. Those people are wrong, just as you are.
Hmm, okay
"Passion" has no bearing on fact. I understand that you want to make it an emotional event when you try to argue your point, exactly as programs do. You (and they) appeal to the lower brain with emotional anecdotes that wither under scientific scrutiny. Again, I'm sorry, but your opinion and emotional appeals don't hold water. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will continue to trust my own education and experience and the prepondrance of the established evidence.
?..and just continue to stay fast and believe that, DJ, the rest of us will continue to educate ourselves, and move forward.
And yes I believe we are all on equal footing and have a right to state our opinions from our own experiences. If you want to believe you are above everyone else, good luck, I feel bad for you, there are many people posting on fornits who you could learn from if you would open your mind and listen.
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On 2006-06-21 08:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WHO: I am a woman, and a housewife, and I have read most of DJ's postings--and I don't have the opinion that he dislikes or insults women.
You DO NOT SPEAK for us women-folk.
So, speak for yourself, OK?"
For the record, I love women. I love their subtleties and complexity and the gentle demeanor some of them have that I envy greatly. I'm certainly not a misogynist. One post where I said someone sounded like a hysterical housewife hardly a misogynist makes. That's just a lame duck and a red herring.
That being said... Making the topic into a referendum on me is just a tactic to derail the debate by some who cannot support their untenable positions. The Who does this regularly and "Wild Fig" (or whatever she calls herself today - she uses several different login names as well as posting anon) just can't get any story straight on any subject and is a classic polemicist.
Let's get back to the topic.
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Here we go again! I used to get abused for not having a login- now I do, and I'm still being accused of posting anon. I do not post anon because I don't want to be mistaken for some of the crackpots around here.
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The overwhelming majority of professionals believe these schools are making a big difference in these kids lives and are responsible for turning them around and getting them on track...
This is an unmitigated crock of shit. Show the documentation that supports this ridiculous notion.
And yes I believe we are all on equal footing and have a right to state our opinions from our own experiences.
Everyone here has the unabridged right to post what they want. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Your opinion happens to be wrong. It is so wrong that you have to fabricate statements like the one above stating the "overwhelming majority of professionals" recommend this treatment. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. But, hey, that never stops you! :lol:
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On 2006-06-21 09:18:00, wild fig wrote:
"Here we go again! I used to get abused for not having a login- now I do, and I'm still being accused of posting anon. I do not post anon because I don't want to be mistaken for some of the crackpots around here. "
Can I have a moderator verify this? Just give the word...
We finally had to do it with The Who. We can do it for you. too - for clarity's sake.
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DJ Wrote:
That being said... Making the topic into a referendum on me is just a tactic to derail the debate by some who cannot support their untenable positions. The Who does this regularly and "Wild Fig" (or whatever she calls herself today - she uses several different login names as well as posting anon) just can't get any story straight on any subject and is a classic polemicist.
So now we are making the topic a referendum on you, DJ.
So you come on here this morning jump into a conversation and attack everyone, start name calling and now you want to play the victim ?
What the heck is going on here?
Are you looking for an apology?
Go back to your first post this morning and read thru to now and rethink what you are saying, you don?t make sense.
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On 2006-06-21 09:21:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
The overwhelming majority of professionals believe these schools are making a big difference in these kids lives and are responsible for turning them around and getting them on track...
This is an unmitigated crock of shit. Show the documentation that supports this ridiculous notion.
And yes I believe we are all on equal footing and have a right to state our opinions from our own experiences.
Everyone here has the unabridged right to post what they want. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Your opinion happens to be wrong. It is so wrong that you have to fabricate statements like the one above stating the "overwhelming majority of professionals" recommend this treatment. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. But, hey, that never stops you! :lol:
"
The professionals just dont support your views DJ. Its not my opinion it is theirs. They prove it every day, thats what they do is make decisions for kids in their care. You claim to be a professional, you should know this. These professionals have more experience, degrees and more timely information than you do. They also continue to learn about the industry not live in the past, wake up.
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The professionals just dont support your views DJ. Its not my opinion it is theirs.
OK, so now we established that you can't provide any data/sources/facts to support this nonsense. If it's such an obvious thing, surely you can support it, no?
So we're back to it being just your opinion again.
Let's move on. You're circling the drain here.
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On 2006-06-21 09:14:00, TheWho wrote:
The overwhelming majority of professionals believe these schools are making a big difference in these kids lives and are responsible for turning them around and getting them on track.
Quite a few are, yes (that's one of the things that scares me the most). But I don't believe it's the "overwhelming majority". If you have any evidence to back this up I'd certainly be willing to entertain it.
What's your opinion of therapeutic communities in general? What do you think of the origins? How do you reconcile the fact that TBS are based on the cult tactics? Not just a few phrases borrowed here and there or just an idea or two but the very fundamentals that were found to be so destructive. This is not a good idea gone bad or something that could use improvement. The very basics of how and why it 'works' (as in it does modify behavior, that doesn't mean it's a good thing) are destructive. It's like trying to improve the taste of shit by dousing it with all kinds of spices. It's still shit.
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Okay lets see where is that link again, I think it was with yours, DJ, when you said:
What you fail to recognize is that my "opinion," as you state, is the prevailing view of professionals around the world, just like evolution and the spherical globe.
Lets view this a little differently. If a parent is able to afford a private TBS for a year or two why would he employ a second rate crackpot (as you call it) with a degree from ?Dysfunction Junction University?, working out of his basement, to attend to his kids emotional needs. You just dont get it or either refuse to see it, DJ, these are the top therapists/Hospitals in the country who are recommending some of these places. Its fact and if you want to search for a study on this, knock yourself out, we all know what you will find.
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On 2006-06-21 09:48:00, TheWho wrote:
"Okay lets see where is that link again, I think it was with yours, DJ, when you said:
What you fail to recognize is that my "opinion," as you state, is the prevailing view of professionals around the world, just like evolution and the spherical globe.
Lets view this a little differently. If a parent is able to afford a private TBS for a year or two why would he employ a second rate crackpot (as you call it) with a degree from ?Dysfunction Junction University?, working out of his basement, to attend to his kids emotional needs. You just dont get it or either refuse to see it, DJ, these are the top therapists/Hospitals in the country who are recommending some of these places. Its fact and if you want to search for a study on this, knock yourself out, we all know what you will find.
"
Exactly what I expected from you. Make a false statement, try to wiggle out of it, spin it relentlessly and finally ask someone else to prove it's not true.
You would fail philosophy 101, Who. You made a statement, now you provide the proof. It's not my burden to disprove your nonsense, it's your burden to prove it.
Anyone who is in the business knows what you're saying is completely false. You can't stamp your feet and throw a tantrum to deflect the focus. You made a mistake, made an utterly false statement (like so many times before) and now you don't want to account for it (yet again). That's your problem for you to deal with.
Again, "show your work" that "2 + 2 = 5." Your opinion won't suffice as an answer. Support your position with documentation or abandon your position - it's basic debate. Operate within the framework or take your nonsense elsewhere.
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What's your opinion of therapeutic communities in general?
Well for TBS', I think they are badly needed and under regulated
What do you think of the origins?
Not real familiar with the history of TBS
How do you reconcile the fact that TBS are based on the cult tactics?
I don?t reconcile it at all. The world has evolved out of horrendous times and barbaric systems and ideals. Behavior modification can be abused but if used properly it is also a necessary and useful practice.
It's like trying to improve the taste of shit by dousing it with all kinds of spices. It's still shit.
Yes but if you take it out of your mouth and put it in the ground you can grow something very nutritional that is necessary for your body to grow.
This is part of my point of being here. I want you to look every event, function from several different angles, look for other uses, points of view, opportunities. Step off the bandwagon . People talk about Behavior Modification like it is evil, when in fact most of us were potty trained using it when our mothers said ?Good Job?, it was the very essence of the self esteem that we grew inside of ourselves. It is all around us and we all use it everyday. Can it be abused, of course. Does everyone abuse it , no.
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On 2006-06-21 09:23:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 09:18:00, wild fig wrote:
"Here we go again! I used to get abused for not having a login- now I do, and I'm still being accused of posting anon. I do not post anon because I don't want to be mistaken for some of the crackpots around here. "
Can I have a moderator verify this? Just give the word...
We finally had to do it with The Who. We can do it for you. too - for clarity's sake.
"
boy, you sure did disappear quick, wild fig. why won't you answer this?
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On 2006-06-21 10:07:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 09:48:00, TheWho wrote:
"Okay lets see where is that link again, I think it was with yours, DJ, when you said:
What you fail to recognize is that my "opinion," as you state, is the prevailing view of professionals around the world, just like evolution and the spherical globe.
Lets view this a little differently. If a parent is able to afford a private TBS for a year or two why would he employ a second rate crackpot (as you call it) with a degree from ?Dysfunction Junction University?, working out of his basement, to attend to his kids emotional needs. You just dont get it or either refuse to see it, DJ, these are the top therapists/Hospitals in the country who are recommending some of these places. Its fact and if you want to search for a study on this, knock yourself out, we all know what you will find.
"
Exactly what I expected from you. Make a false statement, try to wiggle out of it, spin it relentlessly and finally ask someone else to prove it's not true.
You would fail philosophy 101, Who. You made a statement, now you provide the proof. It's not my burden to disprove your nonsense, it's your burden to prove it.
Anyone who is in the business knows what you're saying is completely false. You can't stamp your feet and throw a tantrum to deflect the focus. You made a mistake, made an utterly false statement (like so many times before) and now you don't want to account for it (yet again). That's your problem for you to deal with.
Again, "show your work" that "2 + 2 = 5." Your opinion won't suffice as an answer. Support your position with documentation or abandon your position - it's basic debate. Operate within the framework or take your nonsense elsewhere.
"
Didnt mean to rile you up, but you are so confrontational today. Show me your document that says your opinion is in line with the "prevailing view of professionals around the world", and I will give you back some of your credibility.
I think we may be getting close to bringing out the "Dead Horses"
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Professionals like Dr. Phil highly recommend TBS facilities. That says a lot.
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On 2006-06-21 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Professionals like Dr. Phil highly recommend TBS facilities. That says a lot."
I guess you could count him if you want, to me he is a TV character.
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All of the documentation supporting my position has been posted all over this forum, Who. You already know this, now you're just hiding because you got called on the carpet for your nonsense. The day I need you to restore my credibility, I'll just jump off a bridge. :lol:
And, please, stop projecting. You don't rile me up at all. Your whole argument is a farce and you can't sustain it.
Why all the back-peddling? You seemed so cock-sure of yourself before. Gone limp, have we?
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On 2006-06-21 10:33:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Professionals like Dr. Phil highly recommend TBS facilities. That says a lot."
I guess you could count him if you want, to me he is a TV character."
Yeah well I meant that it says a lot that a fucking quack like that so highly recommends these places. You're assuming I meant it was a good thing.
-
On 2006-06-21 10:37:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"All of the documentation supporting my position has been posted all over this forum, Who. You already know this, now you're just hiding because you got called on the carpet for your nonsense. The day I need you to restore my credibility, I'll just jump off a bridge. :lol:
And, please, stop projecting. You don't rile me up at all. Your whole argument is a farce and you can't sustain it.
Why all the back-peddling? You seemed so cock-sure of yourself before. Gone limp, have we?
"
Nice shot at deflecting, I really didnt expect you had any proof, as usual, but thought I would give you a chance.
-
On 2006-06-21 10:46:00, TheWho wrote:
Nice shot at deflecting, I really didnt expect you had any proof, as usual, but thought I would give you a chance."
OK, well I've asked you for any evidence of your claim that most support and recommend TBS programs. Can you provide me any?
-
On 2006-06-21 10:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 10:33:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Professionals like Dr. Phil highly recommend TBS facilities. That says a lot."
I guess you could count him if you want, to me he is a TV character."
Yeah well I meant that it says a lot that a fucking quack like that so highly recommends these places. You're assuming I meant it was a good thing."
He recommends what ever he thinks will get viewers or increase ratings. He is not a benchmark for other perfessionals or vice versa. It is interesting to watch sometimes.
-
This doesn't speak specifically to recommendations of TB programs but it's interesting and speaks a lot to what I'm talking about with how teens are perceived.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/human ... teens.html (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/human/pubs/parteens.html)
"Positive stories about teens rarely make it into the headlines. But, believe it or not, nine in 10 teens do not get into trouble. Do we hear about those in the news?!
Whether children are toddlers or teens, preparing for parenting challenges is tough! The difficulty with teens is that they are becoming much larger, much more verbal, and are able to fight battles more on an adult level. They may experiment with risk taking, and the stakes are higher than at any other developmental stage to this point. Teens do not turn into teens overnight. There are three phases of adolescence that include the teen years: pre-adolescence (age 9 to 13), middle adolescence (age 14 to 16) and late adolescence (age 17 to 20).
During pre-adolescence, children feel disorganized, and their growth is rapid and uneven. They are not quite adolescents yet because their sexual maturity has not fully completed, and they are often referred to as tweens, meaning between the stages of childhood and teen years. Children try to meet the expectations of both parents and friends. Parents of pre-adolescents may feel less ready to face the new challenges than when their children were younger. They may feel more worried about the number of dangerous situations and substances to which youth are exposed. Parents should meet this stage with warmth, fairness, and even a sense of humor.
During middle adolescence, children may go ballistic over a few extra pounds, hair that won't stay in place, or fair-weather friends. During this time, parents may take on more a role of counselor. The warmth, affection, and positive communication of a counselor, however, must be balanced with the teen's need to be independent and in charge. One researcher found that teens seek information from friends on social events, dating, joining clubs, and other social life aspects while they turn to their parents for information on education, career plans, and money matters.
During late adolescence, there are many decisions to be made. Teens are beginning to disengage, and they often prepare to leave home about the same time their parents are reflecting on their own lives and needs. At this time, authority with children is redefined and there is a gradual shift toward economic and emotional independence. A new adult-adult relationship must emerge. "
-
On 2006-06-21 10:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 10:46:00, TheWho wrote:
Nice shot at deflecting, I really didnt expect you had any proof, as usual, but thought I would give you a chance."
OK, well I've asked you for any evidence of your claim that most support and recommend TBS programs. Can you provide me any?"
There is a link at the bottom of the study that DJ provided for his proof. As soon as he posts his I will cut and past it for you or maybe he can just give us the link and I will find it for you. Just give him a few more minutes, he might be having lunch.
-
An oldie but a goodie.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224 (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224)
Bashing Youth
Media Myths about Teenagers
By Mike Males
"Unplanned pregnancies. HIV infection and AIDS, other sexually transmitted diseases. Cigarettes, alcohol and drug abuse. Eating disorders. Violence. Suicide. Car crashes."
The 21-word lead-in to a Washington Post (12/22/92) report sums up today's media image of the teenager: 30 million 12- through 19-year-olds toward whom any sort of moralizing and punishment can be safely directed, by liberals and conservatives alike. Today's media portrayals of teens employ the same stereotypes once openly applied to unpopular racial and ethnic groups: violent, reckless, hypersexed, welfare-draining, obnoxious, ignorant.
And like traditional stereotypes, the modern media teenager is a distorted image, derived from the dire fictions promoted by official agencies and interest groups.
During the 1980s and 1990s, various public and private entrepreneurs realized that the news media will circulate practically anything negativeabout teens, no matter how spurious. A few examples among many:
* In 1985, the National Association of Private Psychiatric Hospitals,defending the profitable mass commitment of teenagers to psychiatric treatment on vague diagnoses, invented the "fact" that a teenager commits suicide "every 90 minutes"--or 5,000 to 6,000 times every year. Countless media reports of all types, from the Associated Press (4/4/91) to Psychology Today (5/92), continue to report this phony figure, nearly three times the true teen suicide toll, which averaged 2,050 per year during the 1980s(Vital Statistics of the United States).
* In a 1991 campaign to promote school-based clinics, the American Medical Association (AMA) and the National Association of State Boards of Education published a report that inflated the 280,000 annual births to unmarried teenaged mothers into "half a million," and claimed a "30-fold" increase in adolescent crime since 1950. In fact, 1950 youth crime statistics are too incomplete to compare, and later, more comprehensive national reports show no increase in juvenile crime rates in at least two decades. (Contrast, for example, the FBI Uniform Crime Reports for 1970 and 1992.) The facts notwithstanding, the national media (e.g., AP, 6/8/90) dutifully publicized the organizations' exaggerations.
* In the early '80s, officials hyping the "war on drugs" orchestrated media hysteria about "skyrocketing" teenage drug abuse at a time when, in fact, teenage drug death rates were plummeting (down 70 percent from 1970 to1982). In the late '80s, the same media outlets parroted official claims of a drug-war "success" when, in reality, youth drug death rates were skyrocketing (up 85 percent from 1983 to 1991--see In These Times,5/20/92).
Today, official and media distortions are one and the same. Who's to blame for poverty? Teenage mothers, declares Health and Human Services Secretary Donna Shalala in uncritical news stories (see Los Angeles Times, 12/12/93) that fail to note that teenage mothers on welfare were poor before they became pregnant.
Who's causing violence? "Kids and guns," asserts President Clinton, favorably quoted by reporters (AP, 11/14/93) who neglect to mention that six out of seven murders are committed by adults. Who's dying from drugs, spreading AIDS, committing suicide? Teenagers, teenagers, teenagers, the media proclaim at the behest of official sources, even though health reports show adults much more at risk from all of these perils than are adolescents.
-
On 2006-06-21 10:46:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 10:37:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"All of the documentation supporting my position has been posted all over this forum, Who. You already know this, now you're just hiding because you got called on the carpet for your nonsense. The day I need you to restore my credibility, I'll just jump off a bridge. :lol:
And, please, stop projecting. You don't rile me up at all. Your whole argument is a farce and you can't sustain it.
Why all the back-peddling? You seemed so cock-sure of yourself before. Gone limp, have we?
"
Nice shot at deflecting, I really didnt expect you had any proof, as usual, but thought I would give you a chance."
:lol: "The Ultimate Flip-Flopper"
This is too funny. You've come unraveled!
This is the true "Program Speak"! When you're backed into a corner, just flip it on the kid.
How funny, Who, that you have now degraded yourself to such a level. I knew you'd do it eventually, but geez, the wheels have come completely off!
You know full well that my position is supported by the Surgeon General, by professional associations, by ASTART, etc, but you try to crawl out of the crosshairs by making me do busy work to prove what is already self-evident and abundantly documented dozens of times on this site.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when at first we practice to deceive..."
Shame on you, sir, for your spinelessness, duplicity and lack of integrity!
Q: "Where are the weapons of mass destruction, Mr. President?"
A: "Bill Clinton lied about sex!"
So utterly pathetic, Who, even for you...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-21 11:00 ]
-
On 2006-06-21 10:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This doesn't speak specifically to recommendations of TB programs but it's interesting and speaks a lot to what I'm talking about with how teens are perceived.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/human ... teens.html (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/human/pubs/parteens.html)
"Positive stories about teens rarely make it into the headlines. But, believe it or not, nine in 10 teens do not get into trouble. Do we hear about those in the news?!
Whether children are toddlers or teens, preparing for parenting challenges is tough! The difficulty with teens is that they are becoming much larger, much more verbal, and are able to fight battles more on an adult level. They may experiment with risk taking, and the stakes are higher than at any other developmental stage to this point. Teens do not turn into teens overnight. There are three phases of adolescence that include the teen years: pre-adolescence (age 9 to 13), middle adolescence (age 14 to 16) and late adolescence (age 17 to 20).
During pre-adolescence, children feel disorganized, and their growth is rapid and uneven. They are not quite adolescents yet because their sexual maturity has not fully completed, and they are often referred to as tweens, meaning between the stages of childhood and teen years. Children try to meet the expectations of both parents and friends. Parents of pre-adolescents may feel less ready to face the new challenges than when their children were younger. They may feel more worried about the number of dangerous situations and substances to which youth are exposed. Parents should meet this stage with warmth, fairness, and even a sense of humor.
During middle adolescence, children may go ballistic over a few extra pounds, hair that won't stay in place, or fair-weather friends. During this time, parents may take on more a role of counselor. The warmth, affection, and positive communication of a counselor, however, must be balanced with the teen's need to be independent and in charge. One researcher found that teens seek information from friends on social events, dating, joining clubs, and other social life aspects while they turn to their parents for information on education, career plans, and money matters.
During late adolescence, there are many decisions to be made. Teens are beginning to disengage, and they often prepare to leave home about the same time their parents are reflecting on their own lives and needs. At this time, authority with children is redefined and there is a gradual shift toward economic and emotional independence. A new adult-adult relationship must emerge. "
"
Thank you so much, anon. Someone showed me this about 6 years ago and I always wanted a copy. I think the most compelling to me was ?Myth #5? and gives rise to many questions a parent may have about their teenager and what may drive their behavior and gives a little insight as to what is going on with them. I think it was in a magazine about 8 years ago, anyway, thanks I am going to archive this. You should save this and give it to parents to read who have teens at home.
-
Awe shucks DJ, you don?t have to compare me to presidents of the US, especially Clinton, I feel I should have a cigar in my hand. I am not worthy, I am not worthy?.
-
There is a link at the bottom of the study that DJ provided for his proof. As soon as he posts his I will cut and past it for you or maybe he can just give us the link and I will find it for you. Just give him a few more minutes, he might be having lunch.
"If you want to destroy my sweater
Pull this thread as I walk away (as I walk away)...
Watch me unravel. I'll soon be naked.
Lying on the floor, lying on the floor...
I've come undone!"[/b]
Who, you are good for a laugh! Your belly must be so full from eating your words that you look like Cool Hand Luke lying on the table! :lol:
-
Come on guys. Let's not have this degenerate into a Robert Bruce/SHH kind of thing, huh?
-
On 2006-06-21 11:09:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
There is a link at the bottom of the study that DJ provided for his proof. As soon as he posts his I will cut and past it for you or maybe he can just give us the link and I will find it for you. Just give him a few more minutes, he might be having lunch.
"If you want to destroy my sweater
Pull this thread as I walk away (as I walk away)...
Watch me unravel. I'll soon be naked.
Lying on the floor, lying on the floor...
I've come undone!"[/b]
Who, you are good for a laugh! Your belly must be so full from eating your words that you look like Cool Hand Luke lying on the table! :lol:
"
Thanks, I like the "Cool Hand Luke" analogy, good visual. One of my top 10 movies. So the bet was that Paul Newman couldnt eat 50 hardboiled eggs.
How many did he eat? Do you remember
-
It is a great flick! Definitely one of my top ten, too and Newman's best picture, IMHO.
Let me drop another gem on you that's more germane than the number of eggs he ate:
"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."[/i]
Who, this fits you to a "t," buddy!
-
On 2006-06-21 11:28:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"It is a great flick! Definitely one of my top ten, too and Newman's best picture, IMHO.
Let me drop another gem on you that's more germane than the number of eggs he ate:
"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."[/i]
Who, this fits you to a "t," buddy!
"
Struthers Martin, Classic !!!!
-
Is this the point where you guys kiss and make up?....This has been funny watching I got to admit. Some classical put downs from both sides. :wave:
...and in all indictments for libels the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the facts, under the direction of the court, as in other cases.
(Jury nullification. It's not just a good idea, it's the law!)
Declaration of Rights, PA Constitution
-
Or maybe you liked a lighter flick, like "Dodgeball"?
You're like Patches O'Houlihan only your "Five D's of Dodgeball" are your "Five D's of Debate":
"Dodge, Dip, Dive, Duck and Dodge"[/i]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Priceless...
-
On 2006-06-21 11:34:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"Or maybe you liked a lighter flick, like "Dodgeball"?
You're like Patches O'Houlihan only your "Five D's of Dodgeball" are your "Five D's of Debate":
"Dodge, Dip, Dive, Duck and Dodge"[/i]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Priceless...
"
Thats a low shot, I actually like him. He has a line of clothes at Walmart which I purchased called "The Patches Collection". If you buy a full set you get a free Volley ball.
-
On 2006-06-21 10:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"An oldie but a goodie.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224 (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224)
:eek: Wow.
Two Sides, Same Bias
The extraordinary lack of context and fairness in media coverage of youthstems from two elemental difficulties. First, the standard media assumption is that fairness is served by quoting "both sides"--but on youth issues, "both sides" frequently harbor adult biases against teenagers.
In the much-publicized debates over school programs to reduce "teen" pregnancy, for example, the press quoted "liberal" sources favoring condom handouts balanced by "conservative" sources demanding abstinence education (e.g. USA Today, 11/19/91). However, both lobbies based their arguments on the same myth--that heedless high school boys are the main cause of "teen" pregnancy--and avoided the same disturbing fact: that even if every high school boy abstained from sex or used a condom, most "teen" pregnancies would still occur.
The second difficulty is that "teenage" behavior is not separate from "adult" behavior. Such hot topics as "teen pregnancy," "teen suicide," and "youth violence" are artificial political and media inventions. In real-world environments, teenagers usually act like the adults of their family, gender, race, class, location and era, often because their behaviors occur with adults.
For example, Vital Statistics of the United States shows that white adults are twice as likely to commit suicide as black adults, and white teens are twice as likely to commit suicide as black teens. From 1940 to 1990, unwed birth rates rose 4.7 times among teenage women and 4.6 times among adult women. The FBI's 1992 Uniform Crime Reports show that men commit 88 percent of all adult violent crime; boys commit 88 percent of all juvenile violent crime.
Why are adult contexts, common to media reports on youth prior to the 1970s, only rarely cited today? Because that would prevent adolescents from serving as the latest scapegoats for problems that affect society in general.
And there is a subtler reason: the interests circulating negative images of teens want the source of malaise located within youth, where it can be "treated" by whatever solutions the publicizing interest groups profit from, rather than in unhealthy environments whose upgrading will require billions of dollars in public spending. Thus short-term political and corporate profit lies not in fixing environments, but in fixing kids.
The treatment industry's message is clear: "Our teenagers have lost their way," declares the AMA. The press has been a key element in the campaign to persuade the public that the cause of youth pregnancy, violence, suicide and drug addiction lies within the irrational psychologies and vulnerabilities of adolescents.
A standard news and documentary feature is the "troubled teen" rescued by the teamwork of "loving parents" and "get-tough" professionals. (For an example justifying the abduction of youth by "therapeutic programs," see the Los Angeles Times, 6/2/93). Despite melodramatic media splashes advertising the "success" of this program or that therapy (often based on testimonials or the promoter's own "study"), controlled, long-term research finds efforts to "cure" troubled teenagers generally ineffective.
On the other hand, the publicity campaigns for such treatments--disguised as news--have been quite successful. During the 1980s, the number of teens forced into intensive psychiatric treatment quadrupled, while adolescent commitments to drug and alcohol treatment tripled. If institution and treatment industry claims are valid, we should have seen dramatic improvements in youth behavior.
Exactly the opposite is the case. In the last five to 10 years, intense media and government attacks on various behaviors--chiefly drug abuse, violence and pregnancy--have been followed by rapidly rising problems among teenagers. Stable violence rates and rapidly declining birth rates and drug eath levels prior to 1985 have suddenly reversed: All three rose rapidly from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s. The media's unwillingness to question official policy and its failures helped make these reverses possible.
-
OK, now we blew off some steam. Back to the subject.
A partial list of those who have position statements identical to, or nearly identical to my own:
A START
American Psychological Association
American Association of
Community Psychiatrists
American Orthopsychiatric
Association
Child Welfare League of America
Federation of Families for Children?s
Mental Health
National Youth Advocate
Program, Inc.
Tsila Abush-Kirsh, Ph.D.
Licensed Clinical Psychologist
Private Practice
Tampa Palms, FL
Neal Adams, M.D.
Los Angeles, California
Neal Adams, M.D., M.P.H.
Director of Special Projects
California Institute for Mental
Health
Sacramento, CA
C. Kimo Alameda, Ph.D.
Director, Office of Multicultural
Service
Hawaii Department of Health
Honolulu, HI
Mudita A. Bahadur, Ph.D.
Licensed Psychologist
Early Intervention Specialist
Saint John?s Health Center
Santa Monica, CA
Susan Bailey, M.D.
John Hopkins University School of
Medicine
Baltimore, MD
Larry S. Baker, M.Div.
Manager?Community Education
Comprehensive Mental Health
Center
Tacoma, WA
Anne C. Bauer, M.D.
Beth Baumeister, Ph.D.
Post-doctoral Fellow
Pediatric Psychology
Children?s Hospital Los Angeles
Los Angeles, CA
Robert F. Baxter, M.D.
Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist
Bonita Springs, FL
Stacy Becker, Psy.D.
Licensed Psychologist & Clinical
Supervisor
Valley Coordinated Children?s
Services
Los Angeles County Department of
Mental Health
Reseda, CA
Lenore Behar, Ph.D.
Director
Child & Family Program Strategies
Durham, NC
Marilyn Benoit, M.D.
Immediate Past President
American Academy of Child &
Adolescent Psychiatry
Washington, DC
Catherine Bergstrom, Psy.D.
Lisa Bertaccini, L.C.S.W.
Chief, Sacramento County Child
and Family Mental Health
Sacramento, CA
Jim Braun
President & CEO
Youth in Need
St. Charles, MO
Eric J. Bruns, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Psychiatry and
Biobehavioral Sciences
Division of Public Behavioral Health
& Justice Policy
University of Washington School of
Medicine
Seattle, WA
Nicki Bush, M.S.
Doctoral Student
Child Clinical Psychology
University of Washington
Seattle, WA
William Buzogany, M.D.
Medical Director
Lad Lake, Inc.
Dousman, WI
Kellye M. Campbell, M.N.,
A.R.N.P.
Department of Rehabilitative
Medicine
Harborview Medical Center
Seattle, WA
Glorisa Canino, Ph.D.
Director
Behavioral Sciences Research
Institute
University of Puerto Rico
San Juan, Puerto Rico
Bill Carter, L.C.S.W.
Deputy Director
California Institute for Mental
Health
Sacramento, CA
Deborah Carter, M.D.
Denver, CO
Sharon Chandler, R.N.
Behavioral Health
Bellingham, WA
Andrew Christensen, Ph.D.
Professor, Department of Psychology
UCLA
Los Angeles, CA
Lance Clark
Assistant to the Director
Oak Ranch
Broadway, NC
Michelle Clark, M.D.
Los Angeles, CA
Chris Cline, M.D.
Los Angeles, CA
Kathy Cole-Kelly, M.S., M.S.W.
Professor, Family Medicine
School of Medicine
Case Western Reserve University
Cleveland, OH
Linda Coleman, Ph.D.
Licensed Psychologist
Tampa, FL
Paul Conti, M.D.
Instructor
Harvard Medical School
Cambridge, MA
Margaret Copi, M.D.
Honolulu, HI
Jerry Costley, L.C.S.W.
Licensed Clinical Social Worker
Salt Lake City, UT
Benjamin Crocker, M.D.
Portland, ME
Mario Cruz, M.D.
Pittsburgh, PA
Susan Cycyk, M.Ed., CRC
Director, Division of Child Mental
Health Services
Wilmington, DE
J. Michael Daly, L.C.S.W.
Executive Director, CEO
Kids Oneida
Utica, NY
Max Dertke, Ph.D.
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
Douglas C. Dicharry, M.D.
Bellevue, WA
Gina Frajola Doyle
Clinical Director, Dawn Project
Choices, Inc.
Indianapolis, IN
Elizabeth Dunlap, M.N., A.R.N.P.,
C.S.
Harborview Medical Center
Seattle, WA
John E. Dunne, M.D.
University of Washington
Seattle, WA
Jim Efstation, Ph.D.
Psychologist
Kamuela, HI
Michael H. Epstein
William Barkley Professor
Dept. of Special Education &
Communication Disorders
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE
Monica Epstein, Ph.D.
Assistant in Research
Mental Health Law & Policy
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
Clarissa Escobar, Ph.D.
Waivered Clinical Psychologist
Valley Coordinated Children?s
Services
Los Angeles County Department of
Mental Health
Reseda, CA
Warachel Faison, M.D.
Durham, NC
Robert Fathman, Ph.D
Child Clinical Psychologist;
President, National Coalition to
Abolish Corporal Punishment in
Schools
Co-Chair, EPOCH-USA: End
Physical Punishment of Children
Dublin, OH
Joel Feiner, M.D.
Dallas, TX
Jacqueline Feldman, M.D.
Birmingham, AL
Robert Friedman, Ph.D.
Professor/Chair
Department of Child & Family
Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
Reta Floyd, M.D.
Los Angeles, California
Jacquie Fritts
Executive Director, Crime Victims
Center of Fayette County
Uniontown, PA
C.R. Gallistel, Ph.D.
Co-Director
Rutgers Center for Cognitive Science
Professor, Cognitive Science and
Behavioral Neuroscience
Rutgers University
Piscataway, NJ
Gladys Garcia, M.S.W.
Portland, ME
Michael P. Golden, M.D.,
F.A.A.C.A.P.
Interlake Psychiatric Associates
PLLC
Bellevue, WA
Elena Gonzalez, L.C.S.W.
Private Practice
Santa Monica, CA
Elaine Childs Gowell, Ph.D.,
A.R.N.P.
Seattle, WA
Sonia Greaven, Ph.D.
Psychologist
Valley Coordinated Children?s
Services
Los Angeles County Department of
Mental Health
Reseda, CA
Amy Green
Doctoral Student
Clinical Psychology
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
Jack Haggerty, M.D.
Chapel Hill, NC
Scott W. Henggeler, Ph.D.
Professor, Department of Psychiatry
Director, Family Services Research
Center
Medical University of SC
Charleston, SC
Mario Hernandez, Ph.D.
Director, Div. of Training, Research,
Evaluation & Demonstration
Department of Child and Family
Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
John M. Hitchcock, L.C.S.W.
Executive Director
Hillsides Home for Children
Pasadena, CA
Kay Hodges, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Psychology
Eastern Michigan University
Laura Hoeman
Psychiatric ARNP
Washington State
Charley Huffine, M.D.
Child Psychiatrist
Former President
American Association of
Community Psychiatrists
Seattle, WA
Mandy Ighani, M.S.W.
Psychiatric Social Worker
Valley Coordinated Children?s
Services
Los Angeles County Department of
Mental Health
Reseda, CA
Nathaniel Israel
Visiting Assistant in Research
Department of Child and Family
Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
Dennis Jacobson, L.I.S.W.
Faculty, Siouxland Medical
Education Foundation
Sioux City, IA
Courtney Kasinger
Communications Director
on behalf of Choices, Inc.
Indianapolis, IN
Kelly Kelleher, M.D., M.P.H.
Professor of Pediatrics and Public
Health
The Ohio State University
Columbus, OH
James Krag, M.D.
Medical Director
Valley Community Services Board
Staunton, VA
Anna Lau, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Psychology
UCLA
Los Angeles, CA
Harriet P. Lefley, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Psychiatry &
Behavioral Sciences
University of Miami School of
Medicine
Miami, FL
Melanie Leland, Ph.D.
Program Director
Valley Coordinated Children?s
Services
Los Angeles County Department of
Mental Health
Reseda, CA
Russell Lim, M.D.
Davis, CA
Deborah Litberg, M.S.W., L.C.S.W.
Social Work Fellow
Children?s Hospital Los Angeles
Los Angeles, CA
Pamela Marks
Administrator, Clinical Psychology
Training Program
UCLA
Los Angeles, CA
Steven C. Martaus, M.S.
Project Director
Children?s Future Hillsborough
Achieve Management, Inc.
Tampa, FL
Kenneth J. Martinez, Psy.D.
Children?s Behavioral Health
Director, Children, Youth and
Families Department
Santa Fe, NM
Neal Mazer, M.D.
CEO, Alisos Institute
Santa Barbara, CA
Jan McCarthy, M.S.W.
Director of Child Welfare Policy
Georgetown University Center for
Child and Human Development
Washington, DC
Hunter McQuistion, M.D.
New York, NY
Cynthia Meyers, Ph.D.
Clinical Psychologist
Tampa, FL
Joan Mikula
Assistant Commissioner
Child and Adolescent Services
Department of Mental Health
Boston, MA
Kenneth Minkoff, M.D.
Los Angeles, CA
Wanda B. Mohr, Ph.D., R.N.
Professor
School of Nursing
University of Medicine and
Dentistry of New Jersey
Newark, NJ
Mary Mohrhauser
Mental Health Specialist
Children and Adolescents
Iowa Department of Human
Services
Des Moines, IA
David Moltz, M.D.
Portland, ME
Richard Munger, Ph.D.
Director of Services Management
Western Highlands Network
Asheville, NC
Zev Nathan, M.D., Ph.D.
Santa Barbara, CA
Dennis J. Neuenfeldt, L.C.S.W.
Director of Residential Services
Lad Lake, Inc.
Dousman, WI
Adrian Novit, Ph.D.
Licensed Clinical Psychologist;
Coordinator
Clinic for Learning and Attention
Disorders
Saint John?s Child and Family
Development Center
Santa Monica, CA
Fred Osher, M.D.
Baltimore, MD
Robert Paulson, Ph.D.
Research Professor
Department of Child and Family
Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
Tom Pavkov, Ph.D.
Purdue University Calumet
Hammond, IN
Joyce Pearson
Mental Health Coordinator
Whatcom County Jail
Bellingham, WA
Bruce D. Perry, M.D., Ph.D.
Senior Fellow
The Child Trauma Academy
Houston, TX
Amy Petrila
Children?s Board of Hillsborough
County
Tampa, FL
Allison Pinto, Ph.D.
Licensed Psychologist
Assistant Professor
Department of Child and Family
Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
Tampa, FL
Kathy Poe
Family Support Provider
Wraparound Tulsa
Tulsa, OK
David Pollack, M.D.
Salem, OR
Clara Reynolds, L.C.S.W.
SED Network Project Manager &
Community Facilitator Hillsborough
County
Tampa, FL
Cindy Robison
NATIVE Health
Spokane, WA
Walter Rush, M.D.
Psychiatrist
St. Paul, MN
Walter Rush, M.D.
Minneapolis, MN
Sonja K. Schoenwald, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Family Services Research Center
Psychiatry & Behavioral Sciences
Medical University of South
Carolina
Charleston, SC
Kristine J. Schwartz, M.A.
Alisos Institute
Santa Barbara, CA
Danielle Schwartz, M.S.
Director of Clinical Operations
Families First of Florida
Tampa, FL
David Shaffer, F.R.C.P. (Lond),
F.R.C.psych (Lond)
Philips Professor of Psychiatry and
Pediatrics
Department of Child Psychiatry
Columbia Univ. & New York State
Psychiatric Institute
New York, NY
Sarah Spain, Ph.D.
Cleveland, OH
Shelley Spear, Ph.D.
Senior Writer/Editor
Statewide Family Networks
Technical Assistance Center
United Advocates for Children of
California
Santa Barbara, CA
Nada Stotland, M.D.
Vice President of the American
Psychiatric Association
Chicago, IL
Jennifer Gregory Strope, Ph.D.
Licensed Psychologist
Stanford, CA
W. Carl Sumi, Ph.D.
Educational Researcher
SRI International
Marcia P. Taborga, Ph.D.
Mental Health Coordinator
Child Health Works
Los Angeles Department of Mental
Health
Los Angeles, CA
Jennifer Taub, Ph.D.
Research Assistant Professor
Center for Mental Health Services
Research
University of Massachusetts Medical
School
Worcester, MA
Tammy L. Taylor, M.S.
Program Coordinator
Sexual Abuse Intervention Network
Tampa, FL
Linda Teplin, Ph.D.
Owen L. Coon
Professor of Psychiatry and
Behavioral Sciences
Director, Psycho-Legal Studies
Department of Psychiatry and
Behavioral Sciences
Feinberg School of Medicine
Northwestern University
Chicago, IL
Deborah Tharinger, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Licensed Psychologist
School Psychology Program
Department of Educational
Psychology
University of Texas
Austin, TX
Jean Thomas, M.D.
Professor of Psychiatry and
Behavioral Sciences
Children?s National Medical Center
The George Washington University
School of Medicine
Washington, DC
Kenneth Thompson, M.D.
Pittsburgh, PA
Jane Timmons-Mitchell, Ph.D.
Associate Clinical Professor of
Psychology
Department of Psychiatry
Case Western Reserve University
School of Medicine
Center for Innovative Practices
Cleveland, OH
Alanna Gelbwasser Updegraff, Ph.D.
Licensed Psychologist
Private Practice & Oak Adoptive
Health Center
Akron Children?s Hospital
Akron, OH
Adena Vanderwielen, Ph.D.
Valley Coordinated Children?s
Services
Los Angeles County Department of
Mental Health
Reseda, CA
Marian E. Williams, Ph.D.
Early Childhood Mental Health
Programs
USC-University Affiliated Program
Children?s Hospital Los Angeles
Los Angeles, CA
Amy Winans
Executive Director
Association for Children?s Mental
Health
Okemos, MI
Michelle W. Woodbridge, Ph.D.
Education Researcher
SRI International
Menlo Park, CA
Jim Wotring, M.S.W.
Penny Wyman
on behalf of
The Ohio Association of Child
Caring Agencies
Columbus, OH
Sally D. Yeatman, L.C.S.W.
Licensed Clinical Social Worker
Saint John?s Child and Family
Development Center
Santa Monica, CA
Susan W. Yelton, M.S.W.
Child Advocate
Alex Vojick
Child Advocate
Greenfield Township, PA
M. Grace Walters, M.D.
Clinical Assistant Professor
Department of Psychiatry
University of Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh, PA
Irene Ward
Executive Vice President
Catholic Community Services of
Western Washington
Seattle, WA
Jill Waterman, Ph.D.
Adjunct Professor of Psychology
Coordinator, UCLA Psychology
Clinic
Los Angeles, CA
Al Way
Director of Children?s Services
Mental Health Authority of Clinton-
Eaton-Ingham Counties
Lansing, MI
Richard B. Weinberg, Ph.D., ABPP
Diplomate in Clinical Psychology
American Board of Professional
Psychology
Clinical Associate Professor
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
Every single one of the aforementioned people/organizations are signators of a formal request to Congress to initiate a GAO investigation into the unlicensed, unregulated private "treatment centers" you so proudly promote.
Now, Who, you aren't going to tell me this is some out-of-touch, fringe society of crazies, are you?
This is the mainstream.
-
The letter to Congress:
October 18, 2005
Honorable Members of Congress
United States House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515
Dear Members of Congress,
As mental health professionals and leaders in the children?s mental health field, we
join together to express our serious concern about the large number of youth with mental
disorders now housed in unregulated and unlicensed residential treatment facilities
frequently referred to as therapeutic boarding schools, emotional growth schools and
behavior modification programs. Many of us are individual clinicians, and as such we
usually refrain from entering the public policy arena, yet the threat posed by this new
institutionalization of children is so serious that we feel we can no longer remain silent.
In the last fifteen years, unlicensed privately run residential programs for youth with
mental and emotional problems have proliferated. Hundreds of new programs now
market aggressively over the Internet preying upon desperate families who seek help for
their children. These worried families pay enormous sums?facilities cost up to $100,000
per year?to obtain ?treatment? for their troubled children. The programs are located
around the country, and even outside the country, and often times children are transported
hundreds, if not thousands, of miles across state lines to these programs.
The reality of what occurs in some of these unregulated programs is often quite different
from the highly individualized, highly structured programs advertised to parents. These
programs are troubling for a number of reasons:
? Children are often prohibited from speaking with their own families for months, in some
cases for up to a year, a practice which has been shown to have significant negative clinical
outcomes for children and adverse consequences for families.
? Seclusion and restraint procedures are significantly more restrictive than what is generally
accepted by mental health licensing and accrediting bodies. These practices have resulted
in several documented deaths.
? Even though the needs of the children housed in these facilities are great, unqualified staff
is charged with implementing treatment plans and supervising children.
? The educational services provided to the children often fail to meet even minimum
standards.
? No research has demonstrated that these programs have long-term clinical effectiveness.
Even more alarming is that abuse and neglect are all too common within these facilities.
There have been many highly public media accounts of atrocious examples of sexual and
physical abuse and medical neglect in these facilities. Yet, there is still little to no public
oversight, leaving these already emotionally fragile children even more vulnerable. The lack
of oversight in these facilities also means that the full scope of the crisis is unknown."
More crazy-talk?
Who, I'd like you to call some of these people and ask them about their beliefs about this subject. Certainly you won't accuse all of them as being graduates of "Dysfunction Junction University," would you?
Seriously, your position on this subject is pure bunk, plain and simple, and you've been de-bunked again.
The Who wrote:
"Nice shot at deflecting, I really didnt expect you had any proof, as usual, but thought I would give you a chance."
Ooops! You stepped in shit again, Who. Time to clean your shoes off, admit your mistakes and move forward.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-21 12:58 ]
-
I hadn't seen that before. Thanks DJ. Damn, there's all kinds of good info flowing through here today.
-
So 130 or so signed a request (many of whom are assistants) out of maybe 10,000 professionals who were presented with the paper but refused to sign because they know the effectiveness of the industry. But I do agree the 130 probably did not refer any of the kids to TBS?s.
If I wrote a letter to congress and got 1-2% of my peers to back me do you think I would make an effect? That means 98% abstained or disagreed.
If they were my numbers, DJ, I would have kept them on my hard drive.
-
It's a start. I don't think as many support the programs as you think and probably not as many condemn them as DJ thinks. I admit it's pervasive in the mental health industry (not as much as you think) but I see that as part of the problem. I'm glad to see some professionals really beginning to take a critical look at what's been blindly accepted for so many years now.
-
On 2006-06-21 13:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's a start. I don't think as many support the programs as you think and probably not as many condemn them as DJ thinks. I admit it's pervasive in the mental health industry (not as much as you think) but I see that as part of the problem. I'm glad to see some professionals really beginning to take a critical look at what's been blindly accepted for so many years now."
Damn. You think, I think, he thinks. I'm sick, I'm tired and my brain has apparently ceased to function. :silly: :silly:
-
The Who is an absolute idiot.
-
Actually even though the majority didn?t sign the petition it will result in further improvements within the industry and maybe regulation which is what I am for. If the paper came across my desk (and I was qualified) I would sign it, so don?t take it as I am against the movement. It looks like it will be beneficial to the kids.
-
On 2006-06-21 12:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 10:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"An oldie but a goodie.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224 (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224)
:eek: Wow.
Two Sides, Same Bias
The extraordinary lack of context and fairness in media coverage of youthstems from two elemental difficulties. First, the standard media assumption is that fairness is served by quoting "both sides"--but on youth issues, "both sides" frequently harbor adult biases against teenagers.
In the much-publicized debates over school programs to reduce "teen" pregnancy, for example, the press quoted "liberal" sources favoring condom handouts balanced by "conservative" sources demanding abstinence education (e.g. USA Today, 11/19/91). However, both lobbies based their arguments on the same myth--that heedless high school boys are the main cause of "teen" pregnancy--and avoided the same disturbing fact: that even if every high school boy abstained from sex or used a condom, most "teen" pregnancies would still occur.
The second difficulty is that "teenage" behavior is not separate from "adult" behavior. Such hot topics as "teen pregnancy," "teen suicide," and "youth violence" are artificial political and media inventions. In real-world environments, teenagers usually act like the adults of their family, gender, race, class, location and era, often because their behaviors occur with adults.
For example, Vital Statistics of the United States shows that white adults are twice as likely to commit suicide as black adults, and white teens are twice as likely to commit suicide as black teens. From 1940 to 1990, unwed birth rates rose 4.7 times among teenage women and 4.6 times among adult women. The FBI's 1992 Uniform Crime Reports show that men commit 88 percent of all adult violent crime; boys commit 88 percent of all juvenile violent crime.
Why are adult contexts, common to media reports on youth prior to the 1970s, only rarely cited today? Because that would prevent adolescents from serving as the latest scapegoats for problems that affect society in general.
And there is a subtler reason: the interests circulating negative images of teens want the source of malaise located within youth, where it can be "treated" by whatever solutions the publicizing interest groups profit from, rather than in unhealthy environments whose upgrading will require billions of dollars in public spending. Thus short-term political and corporate profit lies not in fixing environments, but in fixing kids.
The treatment industry's message is clear: "Our teenagers have lost their way," declares the AMA. The press has been a key element in the campaign to persuade the public that the cause of youth pregnancy, violence, suicide and drug addiction lies within the irrational psychologies and vulnerabilities of adolescents.
A standard news and documentary feature is the "troubled teen" rescued by the teamwork of "loving parents" and "get-tough" professionals. (For an example justifying the abduction of youth by "therapeutic programs," see the Los Angeles Times, 6/2/93). Despite melodramatic media splashes advertising the "success" of this program or that therapy (often based on testimonials or the promoter's own "study"), controlled, long-term research finds efforts to "cure" troubled teenagers generally ineffective.
On the other hand, the publicity campaigns for such treatments--disguised as news--have been quite successful. During the 1980s, the number of teens forced into intensive psychiatric treatment quadrupled, while adolescent commitments to drug and alcohol treatment tripled. If institution and treatment industry claims are valid, we should have seen dramatic improvements in youth behavior.
Exactly the opposite is the case. In the last five to 10 years, intense media and government attacks on various behaviors--chiefly drug abuse, violence and pregnancy--have been followed by rapidly rising problems among teenagers. Stable violence rates and rapidly declining birth rates and drug eath levels prior to 1985 have suddenly reversed: All three rose rapidly from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s. The media's unwillingness to question official policy and its failures helped make these reverses possible.
"
Who, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
-
On 2006-06-21 13:31:00, TheWho wrote:
"Actually even though the majority didn?t sign the petition it will result in further improvements within the industry and maybe regulation which is what I am for. If the paper came across my desk (and I was qualified) I would sign it, so don?t take it as I am against the movement. It looks like it will be beneficial to the kids."
They state that there are no studies to show the effectiveness of the programs. Are you agreeing with that?
-
On 2006-06-21 13:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 13:31:00, TheWho wrote:
"Actually even though the majority didn?t sign the petition it will result in further improvements within the industry and maybe regulation which is what I am for. If the paper came across my desk (and I was qualified) I would sign it, so don?t take it as I am against the movement. It looks like it will be beneficial to the kids."
They state that there are no studies to show the effectiveness of the programs. Are you agreeing with that?"
There are no studies to show that they are ineffective either.
I may not agree with all that is written. I know it doesnt apply to all schools, but it may force more more studies to be performed and focus which will benifit the kids in the long run.
-
Who would the burden of proof, so to speak, fall on? If these people are claiming what a success their program is and how effective it is wouldn't it be their responsibility to back that up with something? Why is it that whenever we ask you to back up your claim that they're effective all you can do is turn it around on us instead of actually answering the question?
-
On 2006-06-21 13:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The Who is an absolute idiot."
Yes, but he's so much fun to play with. :grin:
-
On 2006-06-21 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Who would the burden of proof, so to speak, fall on? If these people are claiming what a success their program is and how effective it is wouldn't it be their responsibility to back that up with something? Why is it that whenever we ask you to back up your claim that they're effective all you can do is turn it around on us instead of actually answering the question?"
My opinion would be ?independent studies?. The individual schools can do studies but they would be perceived, by the skeptics, as biased. The schools could hire someone to do studies but the skeptics would claim bias due to the monies exchanging hands.
So the studies would have to be performed by an independent and neutral entity with no bias.
ASR opened their doors and had people come in to do studies and report on their findings independently and the school provided no funding, but still many here discard the results out of hand. So, I am not sure what the answer is, if the government agency conducted it one could argue the results are tainted because they are pushing for regulation. If the AMA conducts it others would argue that they are looking to get a bigger piece of the industry and create standards etc. so their results are biased.
A study would have to be designed and all parties agree to the model and procedure and then conducted openly and repeated at several different schools, with each school opening their doors.
-
On 2006-06-21 13:13:00, TheWho wrote:
"So 130 or so signed a request (many of whom are assistants) out of maybe 10,000 professionals who were presented with the paper but refused to sign because they know the effectiveness of the industry. But I do agree the 130 probably did not refer any of the kids to TBS?s.
If I wrote a letter to congress and got 1-2% of my peers to back me do you think I would make an effect? That means 98% abstained or disagreed.
If they were my numbers, DJ, I would have kept them on my hard drive."
Who, let me stop you. You're fabricating again. You just made up some numbers here. It's called "lying," Who, and it is not befitting someone who claims to be "open-minded" and looks at "all points of view." Show the documentation to support your claim or otherwise be further tarnished by your inability to tell the truth about anything.
It's funny, though, how you attempt to impugn the credentials of these folks, many of whom are absolutely irreproachable (and you seemed to have missed that entire professional associations consisting of thousands of members also signed on and endorsed it), yet you stauchly defend unlicensed teachers with no degrees at ASR and counselors without masters degrees or any license to practice at ASR. Why the bias? Why are you an ASR/program shill?
You've tipped your hand many times, but this is a doozie...
So, please post your "98% of therapists disagree with the ones that signed the open letter" evidence. Or we could go the short route this time and you can just admit you lied because if you don't you'll look even worse than you already do - if that's possible.
C'mon, Who, just clean up your act and stop lying. You've been thoroughly had by the facts, yet you continue to lie through your teeth like a little kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
-
"Sponsored by:
A START:
Alliance for the Safe, Therapeutic and Appropriate use of Residential Treatment
A collaboration between
The Dept of Child & Family Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental Health Institute
University of South Florida
and
Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law
Co-sponsored by:
? American Psychological Association
? American Association of Community Psychiatrists
? American Orthopsychiatric Association
? Child Welfare League of America
? Federation of Families for Children?s Mental Health
? National Alliance for the Mentally Ill
? National Mental Health Association
? ?
Growing concerns about unlicensed and unregulated residential programs are shared by
mental health professionals, program staff, parents, youth and advocates. These concerns
are described in the following statements, which are provided by a panel of individuals
representing a range of perspectives. Further details of counter-therapeutic treatment,
restricted family rights, substandard education, poor quality medical care, parental
distress and negative after-effects are provided by youth and families who have expressed
their willingness to share further information about their first-hand experiences. This
information is provided to increase awareness regarding this alarming phenomenon and
to substantiate the call for increased protections to safeguard youth and families served
by unregulated residential treatment facilities."
Take a look at some of the commentary on this site: cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm
This is what professionals around the country and the world say about the programs. Read up, Who. Educate yourself as you say you strive to.
-
On 2006-06-21 14:40:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-06-21 13:13:00, TheWho wrote:
"So 130 or so signed a request (many of whom are assistants) out of maybe 10,000 professionals who were presented with the paper but refused to sign because they know the effectiveness of the industry. But I do agree the 130 probably did not refer any of the kids to TBS?s.
If I wrote a letter to congress and got 1-2% of my peers to back me do you think I would make an effect? That means 98% abstained or disagreed.
If they were my numbers, DJ, I would have kept them on my hard drive."
Who, let me stop you. You're fabricating again. You just made up some numbers here. It's called "lying," Who, and it is not befitting someone who claims to be "open-minded" and looks at "all points of view." Show the documentation to support your claim or otherwise be further tarnished by your inability to tell the truth about anything.
It's funny, though, how you attempt to impugn the credentials of these folks, many of whom are absolutely irreproachable (and you seemed to have missed that entire professional associations consisting of thousands of members also signed on and endorsed it), yet you stauchly defend unlicensed teachers with no degrees at ASR and counselors without masters degrees or any license to practice at ASR. Why the bias? Why are you an ASR/program shill?
You've tipped your hand many times, but this is a doozie...
So, please post your "98% of therapists disagree with the ones that signed the open letter" evidence. Or we could go the short route this time and you can just admit you lied because if you don't you'll look even worse than you already do - if that's possible.
C'mon, Who, just clean up your act and stop lying. You've been thoroughly had by the facts, yet you continue to lie through your teeth like a little kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
"
Sorry, DJ, you seem very stressed today, I have never met anyone who is so sensitive about getting everyone to buy into their position. If you want I will do the math for you (its something I do all the time and can do this in my sleep). Send me the completed list of those that signed the petition or representation who signed for them. It may not be 1-2 % it may jump to 3% or fall below 1% but if you want to sharpen our pencils I am up for it.
-
Previous one was mine.
-
Okay, DJ, I would like to close this out if we could. I called several associations and ran out of time because they are closed now. Seems like there was problems with the wording that most of the Clinical industry didn?t like and were not included in on. These were some of the reasons the only active members they could find to sign on were:
American Psychological Association
American Association of Community Psychiatrists
American Orthopsychiatric Association
Child Welfare League of America
Federation of Families for Children?s Mental Health
National Youth Advocate Program, Inc.
Plus the 130 signatures they were able to get off the street (or over the phone).
The following refused to sign:
American Medical association (AMA)
http://www.ama-assn.org/ (http://www.ama-assn.org/)
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Society for Adolescent Psychiatry
Research & Training Center on Children's Mental Health
The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health
Child and Adolescent Services Research Center
Center for Study and Prevention of Violence
These are just the ones I located over the past few hours, there are thousands who refused to sign, do you want me to continue?
Like I said, the letter I agree with, it will lead to improving treatment for the children, which is what I stand for. All I ask is do your homework. The letter to congress was from a small group of people, anyone can write one.
-
Alright Who. People have been asking what you do for a living and I really didn't care but I am curious now. What DO you do that you have such an inclination and so much time to devote to this?
-
On 2006-06-21 17:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Alright Who. People have been asking what you do for a living and I really didn't care but I am curious now. What DO you do that you have such an inclination and so much time to devote to this? "
:wstupid: :wstupid:
-
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224 (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224)
Two Sides, Same Bias
The extraordinary lack of context and fairness in media coverage of youthstems from two elemental difficulties. First, the standard media assumption is that fairness is served by quoting "both sides"--but on youth issues, "both sides" frequently harbor adult biases against teenagers.
In the much-publicized debates over school programs to reduce "teen" pregnancy, for example, the press quoted "liberal" sources favoring condom handouts balanced by "conservative" sources demanding abstinence education (e.g. USA Today, 11/19/91). However, both lobbies based their arguments on the same myth--that heedless high school boys are the main cause of "teen" pregnancy--and avoided the same disturbing fact: that even if every high school boy abstained from sex or used a condom, most "teen" pregnancies would still occur.
The second difficulty is that "teenage" behavior is not separate from "adult" behavior. Such hot topics as "teen pregnancy," "teen suicide," and "youth violence" are artificial political and media inventions. In real-world environments, teenagers usually act like the adults of their family, gender, race, class, location and era, often because their behaviors occur with adults.
For example, Vital Statistics of the United States shows that white adults are twice as likely to commit suicide as black adults, and white teens are twice as likely to commit suicide as black teens. From 1940 to 1990, unwed birth rates rose 4.7 times among teenage women and 4.6 times among adult women. The FBI's 1992 Uniform Crime Reports show that men commit 88 percent of all adult violent crime; boys commit 88 percent of all juvenile violent crime.
Why are adult contexts, common to media reports on youth prior to the 1970s, only rarely cited today? Because that would prevent adolescents from serving as the latest scapegoats for problems that affect society in general.
And there is a subtler reason: the interests circulating negative images of teens want the source of malaise located within youth, where it can be "treated" by whatever solutions the publicizing interest groups profit from, rather than in unhealthy environments whose upgrading will require billions of dollars in public spending. Thus short-term political and corporate profit lies not in fixing environments, but in fixing kids.
The treatment industry's message is clear: "Our teenagers have lost their way," declares the AMA. The press has been a key element in the campaign to persuade the public that the cause of youth pregnancy, violence, suicide and drug addiction lies within the irrational psychologies and vulnerabilities of adolescents.
A standard news and documentary feature is the "troubled teen" rescued by the teamwork of "loving parents" and "get-tough" professionals. (For an example justifying the abduction of youth by "therapeutic programs," see the Los Angeles Times, 6/2/93). Despite melodramatic media splashes advertising the "success" of this program or that therapy (often based on testimonials or the promoter's own "study"), controlled, long-term research finds efforts to "cure" troubled teenagers generally ineffective.
On the other hand, the publicity campaigns for such treatments--disguised as news--have been quite successful. During the 1980s, the number of teens forced into intensive psychiatric treatment quadrupled, while adolescent commitments to drug and alcohol treatment tripled. If institution and treatment industry claims are valid, we should have seen dramatic improvements in youth behavior.
Exactly the opposite is the case. In the last five to 10 years, intense media and government attacks on various behaviors--chiefly drug abuse, violence and pregnancy--have been followed by rapidly rising problems among teenagers. Stable violence rates and rapidly declining birth rates and drug eath levels prior to 1985 have suddenly reversed: All three rose rapidly from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s. The media's unwillingness to question official policy and its failures helped make these reverses possible.
Who, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this."
:wstupid: :wstupid:
-
Positive stories about teens rarely make it into the headlines. But, believe it or not, nine in 10 teens do not get into trouble. Do we hear about those in the news?!
ABOUT BLODDY TIME!!! :nworthy: :tup:
-
Very compelling, thank you anon. I will archive this article.
-
On 2006-06-22 07:33:00, TheWho wrote:
"Very compelling, thank you anon. I will archive this article."
That's nice but I'd like to know what you think of the actual content of the piece.
And where do you work btw, that you'd have "hours" to research DJs post yesterday about the ineffectiveness of these schools? You were on here all day yesterday. Just wondering why you have THAT much of an interest. It seems its a bit more than just being a parent of a former student.
-
Why are adult contexts, common to media reports on youth prior to the 1970s, only rarely cited today? Because that would prevent adolescents from serving as the latest scapegoats for problems that affect society in general.
The adolescents have always served as scapegoats for what is going wrong in the world. This was especially true when I was young and served to make us stronger in our convictions.
Exactly the opposite is the case. In the last five to 10 years, intense media and government attacks on various behaviors--chiefly drug abuse, violence and pregnancy--have been followed by rapidly rising problems among teenagers.
This surprised me a little that they were able to parallel and find the problems would rise after media pressure. Makes us rethink how we address and get the messages out about drugs and substance abuse and other problems effecting the youths of today.
-
These are just the ones I located over the past few hours, there are thousands who refused to sign, do you want me to continue?
C'mon, Who, you're getting soooo sloppy with the lying...
I made a couple of calls myself. I started with the top of your list, the AMA and went down to the end. The AMA rep said they had no idea what the letter was or who ASTART was, indicating they hadn't been approached at all.
Some of the others you listed have their own position statements on private RTC's that warn against their use, like The Center for the Prevention of Violence, who are referenced in the Surgeon General's report warning against private RTC's and promoting their "blueprint" program of modalities that they endorse which include:
Number: Program Title:
BP-001 Midwestern Prevention Project (MPP)
BP-002 Big Brothers Big Sisters of America (BBBS)
BP-003 Functional Family Therapy (FFT)
BP-005 Life Skills Training (LST)
BP-006 Multisystemic Therapy (MST)
BP-007 Nurse-Family Partnership (NFP)
BP-008 Multidimensional Treatment Foster Care (MTFC)
BP-009 Olweus Bullying Prevention Program (BPP)
BP-010 Promoting Alternative THinking Strategies (PATHS)
BP-011 The Incredible Years: Parent, Teacher and Child Training Series (IYS)
BP-012 Project Towards No Drug Abuse (Project TND)
You are so full of bologna and got busted out yet again for blatantly prevaricating.
Notice that one of the very organizations that you claimed "refused to sign" the letter to Congress has actually made it's position statement on the issue which includes avoidance of the programs you promote and urges the use of effective techniques like Functional Family Therapy, as indicated ion the Surgeon General's report on adolescent treatment. It took me all of 5 minutes to catch you in another Whopper.
Who, you are one of the full-of-shittest people I've ever come across. You also have no shame about lying through your teeth about ANY issue. Nice job again. Maybe you should change your login to The Fool or The Liar.
-
On 2006-06-22 08:39:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
These are just the ones I located over the past few hours, there are thousands who refused to sign, do you want me to continue?
C'mon, Who, you're getting soooo sloppy with the lying...
I made a couple of calls myself. I started with the top of your list, the AMA and went down to the end. The AMA rep said they had no idea what the letter was or who ASTART was, indicating they hadn't been approached at all.
Some of the others you listed have their own position statements on private RTC's that warn against their use, like The Center for the Prevention of Violence, who are referenced in the Surgeon General's report warning against private RTC's and promoting their "blueprint" program of modalities that they endorse which include:
Number: Program Title:
BP-001 Midwestern Prevention Project (MPP)
BP-002 Big Brothers Big Sisters of America (BBBS)
BP-003 Functional Family Therapy (FFT)
BP-005 Life Skills Training (LST)
BP-006 Multisystemic Therapy (MST)
BP-007 Nurse-Family Partnership (NFP)
BP-008 Multidimensional Treatment Foster Care (MTFC)
BP-009 Olweus Bullying Prevention Program (BPP)
BP-010 Promoting Alternative THinking Strategies (PATHS)
BP-011 The Incredible Years: Parent, Teacher and Child Training Series (IYS)
BP-012 Project Towards No Drug Abuse (Project TND)
You are so full of bologna and got busted out yet again for blatantly prevaricating.
Notice that one of the very organizations that you claimed "refused to sign" the letter to Congress has actually made it's position statement on the issue which includes avoidance of the programs you promote and urges the use of effective techniques like Functional Family Therapy, as indicated ion the Surgeon General's report on adolescent treatment. It took me all of 5 minutes to catch you in another Whopper.
Who, you are one of the full-of-shittest people I've ever come across. You also have no shame about lying through your teeth about ANY issue. Nice job again. Maybe you should change your login to The Fool or The Liar.
"
I gave you some wiggle room and you didnt take it, DJ. Bottom line, they didnt sign on to the letter that went to congress. The people I called agree in concept, of course, but didnt agree with the wording so they didnt sign on.
You provided the list of who signed (not me), I provided a few who didnt, its very clear.
I agree with the letter in concept, almost everyone does !!!
Where are the dead horses when you need them?
-
Let me clear up a few more items...
http://www.aacap.org/publications/policy/ps16.htm#TOP (http://www.aacap.org/publications/policy/ps16.htm#TOP)
Policy statement from The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry indicating JCAHO facilities ONLY should be used. This rules out "programs." You can read more about their policy statement at the link.
http://www.adolpsych.org/ (http://www.adolpsych.org/)
Their articles on "Teen Troubles" warn against restrictive treatment.
http://rtckids.fmhi.usf.edu/ (http://rtckids.fmhi.usf.edu/)
This one's the kicker. The Who claims that the The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health REFUSED TO SIGN the letter to Congress, but, get this, they are the ones who wrote the letter and are the organization that FORMED ASTART at the university of South Florida![/b] :nworthy:
Who, you've outdone yourself here!!! What a LIAR you are, sir. For SHAME!!
Do I need to go through the rest of your phony little list? I mean, if you are going to say you CALLED The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health and they said the REFUSED TO SIGN when they actually FORMED ASTART, you couldn't possibly be a bigger LIAR!! :lol: :lol:
This guy:
Robert Friedman, Ph.D.
Professor/Chair
Department of Child & Family
Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
is a signator of the letter and the Director of The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health for chrissake, Who. How sloppy!
I think this charade has been exposed enough, so I won't bother to post more links, but you all can feel free to follow up on your own.
Just remember: If The Who wrote it, it's a BLATANT PREVARICATION! :lol:
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-22 09:23 ]
-
You provided the list of who signed (not me), I provided a few who didnt, its very clear.
I agree with the letter in concept, almost everyone does !!!
Yet yesterday you were saying that the vast majority of pych professionals promoted and referred patients to the "programs"! LOL! Yet the policy statements of everyone you "called" (yeah, RIGHT!) tell people to strictly avoid the very programs you claim they promote and refer to... TOO FUNNY.
Dude, seriously, your credibility is at ZERO. Nearly every single thing you say is a BLATANT LIE!! :lol: And you get pinched for it every time. How pathetic and sad coming from a grown man...
"The Ultimate Flip-Flopper Strikes Again!"
-
The organizations A-Start stated signed the letter to congress:
American Psychological Association
American Association of Community Psychiatrists
American Orthopsychiatric Association
Child Welfare League of America
Federation of Families for Children?s Mental Health
National Youth Advocate Program, Inc.
The following refused to sign:
American Medical association (AMA)
http://www.ama-assn.org/ (http://www.ama-assn.org/)
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Society for Adolescent Psychiatry
Research & Training Center on Children's Mental Health
The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health
Child and Adolescent Services Research Center
Center for Study and Prevention of Violence.
There are more, these are the ones I was able to locate in the time I had last night.
They didn?t sign DJ, they may believe in the concept but they didn?t sign. They may have it on their web site, but they didn?t sign. No matter how you spin it they are not on the list of signatures, period, why? Some didn?t believe in the wording, others were not invited to participate in its conception.
-
Who, what is it you do that you have all the time and resources to research all of this? You've been at it for two days, all day.
-
On 2006-06-22 10:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Who, what is it you do that you have all the time and resources to research all of this? You've been at it for two days, all day."
:wstupid: :wstupid:
Well?
-
This all started with your statement that the "vast majority" of mental health professionals promote and refer to programs.
I have proven this to be a lie and in fact have shown that the vast majority of providers eschew programs. I provided links to hundreds of professionals and many organizations with thousands of members whose position statements strongly recommend that programs not be used to treat adolescents.
I don't spin. I don't lie. I provide evidence for everything I say.
You, on the other hand, lie about everything (and get outed for it every time), make up figures and statistics without a shred of evidence other than your opinion, blatantly lie about documentation and change the subject as frequently as possible or demand people "prove" negatives.
Who, you have shown time and again you nothing about the subject and are incapable or unwilling to enlighten yourself. That's the bottom line.
You are an embarrassment to yourself and to the cause you support as well as thinking people everywhere. Only you don't see this. Everyone else does. I'm not sure how you live with yourself every day because your entire life is one big phony story after another, but that's your problem.
-
On 2006-06-22 10:22:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"This all started with your statement that the "vast majority" of mental health professionals promote and refer to programs.
I have proven this to be a lie and in fact have shown that the vast majority of providers eschew programs. I provided links to hundreds of professionals and many organizations with thousands of members whose position statements strongly recommend that programs not be used to treat adolescents.
I don't spin. I don't lie. I provide evidence for everything I say.
You, on the other hand, lie about everything (and get outed for it every time), make up figures and statistics without a shred of evidence other than your opinion, blatantly lie about documentation and change the subject as frequently as possible or demand people "prove" negatives.
Who, you have shown time and again you nothing about the subject and are incapable or unwilling to enlighten yourself. That's the bottom line.
You are an embarrassment to yourself and to the cause you support as well as thinking people everywhere. Only you don't see this. Everyone else does. I'm not sure how you live with yourself every day because your entire life is one big phony story after another, but that's your problem.
"
Sorry you see it that way and feel that way, DJ. Facts are facts, no matter how you spin it they still come back to haunt you.
I could stoop to name calling, its not my style, I choose to let the facts speak for themselves.
-
Seeing as you're a WHORE I daresay you've done your share of 'stooping' already! :rofl: :lol:
-
On 2006-06-22 10:38:00, TheWho wrote:
I choose to let the facts speak for themselves. "
Let's get back to the facts of your employment.
-
Yes, do tell us Who(re) just whose cock you are sucking!! :nworthy:
-
Facts are facts, no matter how you spin it they still come back to haunt you.
Sadly, you've had an object lesson in this concept for the past two days. I can see it has made you sore. Just "stop the insanity," Who.
The lies, the spin, the deflection - it's all come back to bite you and you look horrible because of it. People can now use your inability to tell the truth about anything to discount everything you've ever said because there will always be reasonable suspicion that you are lying.
It's a shame you've invested so much time and energy in this site only to be completely disgraced and discredited by your own lies. I almost feel sorry for you because you are just so pathetic, but not quite.
-
Well said, my good man! :tup:
Now if he could just stop spreading his bloody lies (as well as his bloody legs) around here.. :lol:
-
On 2006-06-22 09:12:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"Let me clear up a few more items...
http://www.aacap.org/publications/policy/ps16.htm#TOP (http://www.aacap.org/publications/policy/ps16.htm#TOP)
Policy statement from The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry indicating JCAHO facilities ONLY should be used. This rules out "programs." You can read more about their policy statement at the link.
http://www.adolpsych.org/ (http://www.adolpsych.org/)
Their articles on "Teen Troubles" warn against restrictive treatment.
http://rtckids.fmhi.usf.edu/ (http://rtckids.fmhi.usf.edu/)
This one's the kicker. The Who claims that the The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health REFUSED TO SIGN the letter to Congress, but, get this, they are the ones who wrote the letter and are the organization that FORMED ASTART at the university of South Florida![/b] :nworthy:
Who, you've outdone yourself here!!! What a LIAR you are, sir. For SHAME!!
Do I need to go through the rest of your phony little list? I mean, if you are going to say you CALLED The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health and they said the REFUSED TO SIGN when they actually FORMED ASTART, you couldn't possibly be a bigger LIAR!! :lol: :lol:
This guy:
Robert Friedman, Ph.D.
Professor/Chair
Department of Child & Family
Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
is a signator of the letter and the Director of The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health for chrissake, Who. How sloppy!
I think this charade has been exposed enough, so I won't bother to post more links, but you all can feel free to follow up on your own.
Just remember: If The Who wrote it, it's a BLATANT PREVARICATION! :lol:
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-22 09:23 ]"
this says everything I want you to know about the who. he just can't help himself from the lying. maybe he should get sent to a program where he can learn a little about being honest with himself and others?
-
On 2006-06-22 10:50:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
Facts are facts, no matter how you spin it they still come back to haunt you.
Sadly, you've had an object lesson in this concept for the past two days. I can see it has made you sore. Just "stop the insanity," Who.
The lies, the spin, the deflection - it's all come back to bite you and you look horrible because of it. People can now use your inability to tell the truth about anything to discount everything you've ever said because there will always be reasonable suspicion that you are lying.
It's a shame you've invested so much time and energy in this site only to be completely disgraced and discredited by your own lies. I almost feel sorry for you because you are just so pathetic, but not quite.
"
Wow, you really hate being proved wrong. I have seen you flip out over on the HLA thread, but never like this.
Now, Take a deep breath. Let it out......... and move on ........
-
On 2006-06-22 11:02:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-06-22 10:50:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
Facts are facts, no matter how you spin it they still come back to haunt you.
Sadly, you've had an object lesson in this concept for the past two days. I can see it has made you sore. Just "stop the insanity," Who.
The lies, the spin, the deflection - it's all come back to bite you and you look horrible because of it. People can now use your inability to tell the truth about anything to discount everything you've ever said because there will always be reasonable suspicion that you are lying.
It's a shame you've invested so much time and energy in this site only to be completely disgraced and discredited by your own lies. I almost feel sorry for you because you are just so pathetic, but not quite.
"
Wow, you really hate being proved wrong. I have seen you flip out over on the HLA thread, but never like this.
Now, Take a deep breath. Let it out......... and move on ........"
what world do you live in? you got absolutely shredded for two days and caught in so many lies it's not funny. are you mentally ill or did you take a severe blow to the head? you've completely lost it.
-
maybe he should get sent to a program where he can learn a little about being honest with himself and others?
Yeah..maybe Dr. Fucktard should consider putting him in SIBS instead of hiring him... :lol:
-
On 2006-06-22 10:58:00, Anonymous
this says everything I want you to know about the who. he just can't help himself from the lying. maybe he should get sent to a program where he can learn a little about being honest with himself and others?"
It may say everything you'd like to know but not me.
Who, what field do you work in? What is your job title? No need to give the name of the facility.
I really don't understand why you have such a problem answering this. You demand answers from others, DJs qualifications etc. but you clam up when pressed about YOUR qualifications or background. Why?
-
On 2006-06-22 09:12:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"Let me clear up a few more items...
http://www.aacap.org/publications/policy/ps16.htm#TOP (http://www.aacap.org/publications/policy/ps16.htm#TOP)
Policy statement from The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry indicating JCAHO facilities ONLY should be used. This rules out "programs." You can read more about their policy statement at the link.
http://www.adolpsych.org/ (http://www.adolpsych.org/)
Their articles on "Teen Troubles" warn against restrictive treatment.
http://rtckids.fmhi.usf.edu/ (http://rtckids.fmhi.usf.edu/)
This one's the kicker. The Who claims that the The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health REFUSED TO SIGN the letter to Congress, but, get this, they are the ones who wrote the letter and are the organization that FORMED ASTART at the university of South Florida![/b] :nworthy:
Who, you've outdone yourself here!!! What a LIAR you are, sir. For SHAME!!
Do I need to go through the rest of your phony little list? I mean, if you are going to say you CALLED The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health and they said the REFUSED TO SIGN when they actually FORMED ASTART, you couldn't possibly be a bigger LIAR!! :nworthy: :rofl:
-
DJ Wrote:
??. are you mentally ill or did you take a severe blow to the head? you've completely lost it.
When you start calling other people mentally ill, you know you have been caught with your shorts down.
Is this how ?Mental Health Professionals? act when they get proved wrong? Start calling people names?
-
Shut your bloody hole, WHORE!! :lol:
-
On 2006-06-22 11:13:00, TheWho wrote:
"DJ Wrote:
??. are you mentally ill or did you take a severe blow to the head? you've completely lost it.
When you start calling other people mentally ill, you know you have been caught with your shorts down.
Is this how ?Mental Health Professionals? act when they get proved wrong? Start calling people names?
"
Yet another lie and falsification of the record, Who. Shame on you.
What you meant to say was:
ANONYMOUS said:
"what world do you live in? you got absolutely shredded for two days and caught in so many lies it's not funny. are you mentally ill or did you take a severe blow to the head? you've completely lost it."
Just busying yourself falsifying some records I guess. Everybody has to have something to do! :lol:
Try using the "Quote" button for accuracy next time instead of just making it up as you go - although I know this is more of a lifestyle and a habit for you, so you'll have to concentrate and try harder to be truthful and accurate. You've fallen short once again, Who. Pinched in another Whopper!
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-22 11:21 ]
-
Here are the facts again. Is this what they call a flame war?
The organizations A-Start stated signed the letter to congress:
American Psychological Association
American Association of Community Psychiatrists
American Orthopsychiatric Association
Child Welfare League of America
Federation of Families for Children?s Mental Health
National Youth Advocate Program, Inc.
The following refused to sign:
American Medical association (AMA)
http://www.ama-assn.org/ (http://www.ama-assn.org/)
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Society for Adolescent Psychiatry
Research & Training Center on Children's Mental Health
The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health
Child and Adolescent Services Research Center
Center for Study and Prevention of Violence.
There are more, these are the ones I was able to locate in the time I had last night.
They didn?t sign DJ, they may believe in the concept but they didn?t sign. They may have it on their web site, but they didn?t sign. No matter how you spin it they are not on the list of signatures, period, why? Some didn?t believe in the wording, others were not invited to participate in its conception.
-
Policy statement from The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry indicating JCAHO facilities ONLY should be used. This rules out "programs." You can read more about their policy statement at the link.
http://www.adolpsych.org/ (http://www.adolpsych.org/)
This policy was written almost 20 years ago. It seems to me that a lot of what was policy of many organizations 20 years ago frequently comes under fire in these forums to this date. Does this now mean it's open season on this one? :grin:
-
No, the facts are that you didn't call or talk to anyone and at least some of the people you say "refused" to sign, are the founders of ASTART and are clearly listed on the signator list.
AAA, MLB, NFL, NBA, ABA, PETA, NAACP, DHS, ATA, SAG, UAW also all "refused" to sign. :lol:
You're a complete joke, Who. You lied, you got pinched, you got proven to be an unmitigated liar and yet you prattle on...
-
On 2006-06-22 11:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-22 10:58:00, Anonymous
this says everything I want you to know about the who. he just can't help himself from the lying. maybe he should get sent to a program where he can learn a little about being honest with himself and others?"
It may say everything you'd like to know but not me.
Who, what field do you work in? What is your job title? No need to give the name of the facility.
I really don't understand why you have such a problem answering this. You demand answers from others, DJs qualifications etc. but you clam up when pressed about YOUR qualifications or background. Why?"
I am presently searching for something. Its a long story. The answer wouldn?t quench anyone?s curiosity anyway.
-
On 2006-06-22 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Policy statement from The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry indicating JCAHO facilities ONLY should be used. This rules out "programs." You can read more about their policy statement at the link.
http://www.adolpsych.org/ (http://www.adolpsych.org/)
This policy was written almost 20 years ago. It seems to me that a lot of what was policy of many organizations 20 years ago frequently comes under fire in these forums to this date. Does this now mean it's open season on this one? :grin: "
It's their current position, regardless of when it was originally drafted. If their position changed they'd update their statement.
-
On 2006-06-22 11:27:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"No, the facts are that you didn't call or talk to anyone and at least some of the people you say "refused" to sign, are the founders of ASTART and are clearly listed on the signator list.
AAA, MLB, NFL, NBA, ABA, PETA, NAACP, DHS, ATA, SAG, UAW also all "refused" to sign. :lol:
You're a complete joke, Who. You lied, you got pinched, you got proven to be an unmitigated liar and yet you prattle on...
"
Ha, Ha, nice try, give it up. No matter how you try you cant place them on the list of signatures, the list is clear. You gave it to me !!
-
On 2006-06-22 11:28:00, TheWho wrote:
I am presently searching for something.
In what field and in what capacity?
Its a long story.
I've got time.
The answer wouldn?t quench anyone?s curiosity anyway."
Aww, now you don't know that. I might be completely satisfied with your answer. Why don't you take a shot at it?
-
Robert Friedman, Ph.D.
Professor/Chair
Department of Child & Family
Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
Director, The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health
Ooops! Another lie. The director (in case you don't know what that means, it means the guy who sets the policy) of the organization you claimed to have called and they told you they "refused to sign" actually did sign and you obviously lied about speaking to them. So, so sloppy. So many lies to keep track of.
I gave you the list, you didn't read it, and then made up some statements and attributed them to people who are on the list. :lol:
-
On 2006-06-22 11:38:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"Robert Friedman, Ph.D.
Professor/Chair
Department of Child & Family
Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental
Health Institute
University of South Florida
Tampa, FL
Director, The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health
Ooops! Another lie. The director (in case you don't know what that means, it means the guy who sets the policy) of the organization you claimed to have called and they told you they "refused to sign" actually did sign and you obviously lied about speaking to them. So, so sloppy. So many lies to keep track of.
I gave you the list, you didn't read it, and then made up some statements and attributed them to people who are on the list. :lol:
"
Squirm, squirm
-
Lie, lie. :lol:
Read the list again. See Dr. Friedman on it. See Dr. Friedman is the Director of The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health, the organization that started ASTART at USF.
You're shot, brother. Completely shot.
-
Still no answer, huh Who?
I'm off to Miami. Someone hold his feet to the fire about this employment issue. I think it will ultimately prove to be important.
-
Ha,Ha Let me explain, people may be part of or head of an organization or many organizations. That person may sign the petition as a representative of his organization or just to represent himself. If he can not get buy in from everyone in the organization (or voting members) he cant sign for them, he can only sign for himself. That is why the ones I listed are not on the signature list.
You cant add the AMA because one of their directors signed the petition, you can only list his name which is what ?A-Start? did.
That?s why ?The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health? is not on the list.
We need to go by the signature list, DJ, not your opinions.
Dam, DJ, smarten up.
-
On 2006-06-22 11:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Still no answer, huh Who?
I'm off to Miami. Someone hold his feet to the fire about this employment issue. I think it will ultimately prove to be important."
I'll wait till you get back, its not that important I think you may be disappointed
-
OK, here we go...one more time for the slow among us...
"The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health at USF's Louis de la Parte Florida Mental Health Institute was initiated in 1984 to address the need for improved services and outcomes for children with serious emotional/behavioral disabilities and their families."
The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health is part of the University of South Florida's Louis de la Parte Florida Mental Health Institute, a division of the Department of Child and Family Studies of the University of South Florida. With me so far?
"The Alliance for the Safe, Therapeutic and Appropriate use of Residential Treatment (A START) is co-sponsored by the Department of Child and Family Studies of the University of South Florida and the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law. The Alliance now includes leaders in psychology, psychiatry, nursing, mental health law, policy and family advocacy, as well as individuals with direct program experience as director, evaluator, parent or participant in such programs."
Here's the hierarchy:
USF
Department of Child and Family Studies of the University of South Florida.
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental Health Institute
The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health
ASTART
The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health and ASTART are part of the same organization. Both are subsystems of Department of Child and Family Studies of the University of South Florida and the Louis de la Parte Florida Mental Health Institute. They are the same entity.
Geez, Who, are you really this brain-dead? Not to mention, all of this is just a side-show so that you could avoid your spurious claim that the mainstream thinking in mental health care promotes programs.
Who, y0u need to put a tent over yourself. You're a one-man circus. Or maybe just a clown.
Either way, you've not a shred of credibility or honesty and are a self-revealed pathological prevaricator.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-22 12:29 ]
-
DJ Wrote:
The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health and ASTART are part of the same organization. Both are subsystems of Department of Child and Family Studies of the University of South Florida and the Louis de la Parte Florida Mental Health Institute.
DJ, I will make it as simple as possible. Yes they may be subsystems of each other and related and even run by the same guy. But the one guy who runs it signed for himself, not for that particular group or groups. For example, If Bill Gates was signing a petition to end abortion he couldn?t ethically list Microsoft as a supporter, he would have to sign his own name. If it was for a cause that he got buyin from all of his board of directors for say a national software policy then yes he could list his company (but not his sub companies if they disagreed).
So you really need to be careful how you connect things. That?s why some organizations signed up and others had their director sign for themselves.
Not a big deal, the letter is something I may sign myself, its good for the kids, although I don?t agree with all the wording, I would want to change a few things.
But you did a good job digging it up, I have a copy in my archives.
Thanks
-
Who, I think you have been invited to STFU.
-
You got to admit this was fun watching. I find it pretty hilarious that on one side you have an ex mental health professional getting his panties in a twist over something someone says that differs from his opinion. I've seen him do it time and time again to anyone that dares go up against the self proclaimed guru of Fornits. First come the insults, then the outdated research, more insults, more links to sites that support his views, more insults, it just goes on and on. Now this sounds like a guy I'd rather not have anything to do with working with kids. Just imagine the damage he could inflict on some poor kid that happens to disagree with him. Of course he won't even look within when he sees this post and I can predict his response. The Who on the other hand has been equally amusing but I'll give him an attaboy for not giving up. Nobody should have to be subjected to the bullshit he has from a so called professional. ::bigsmilebounce::
-
On 2006-06-22 12:01:00, TheWho wrote:
I'll wait till you get back, its not that important I think you may be disappointed"
I'm here. I've got time. My clients don't arrive until tomorrow. So Who, what is your connection to these facilities (other than your daughter)?
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On 2006-06-22 17:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-22 12:01:00, TheWho wrote:
I'll wait till you get back, its not that important I think you may be disappointed"
I'm here. I've got time. My clients don't arrive until tomorrow. So Who, what is your connection to these facilities (other than your daughter)?"
I dont have any connections at this time, nor in the past.
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If it is really important to you I will write it up and post it. It will take a few minutes.
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To ANY behavior mod/TBS/RTC or whatever other pretty wrapper gets slapped on it?
What do you do for a living?????????????????? Why is that such a difficult question for you?
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I build businesses
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On 2006-06-22 17:56:00, TheWho wrote:
"I build businesses"
Why was that so hard?
What kind of business? Why ARE you so obsessed with Fornits? Damn, you're on here more than most survivors of these shitholes, what gives?
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Syphylized genitalia...that's what he builds.
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She...whatever.
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On 2006-06-22 18:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Syphylized genitalia...that's what he builds."
Go back and play in the Elan forum.
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Who, me?
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This should answer most of the questions,
Well, I really don?t do much and there is a good reason for that, although I am not always happy or proud of it. To make a long story short I did well in college and post graduate work, earned a degree in engineering and went on to get my masters. I spent most of my college years organizing protests, getting people to sign petitions about stuff that seemed important at the time, yelling at anyone that wore a tie and asking my dad for bail money for myself and my friends (which I never paid back) which lead to me getting shut off and forcing me to get a job. I don?t think he ever forgave me for piping in Phil Ochs ?
Outside of a small circle of friends? at my sisters wedding when I was in high school and showing up wearing platform shoes, he spent the night trying to explain to all the family that I wasn?t gay and wasn?t wearing high heels. (It was a long time ago, Phil Ochs was important at the time and the irony (in the message) of playing this particular song was an opportunity I could not resist. I don?t expect anyone to understand any of that I just thought I would say it because it was important to me). I did well working in non professional jobs. After graduation I had several job offers. I worked as a research assistant for 8 months and was abruptly fired. (never let me back in the building to say good bye to anyone). A friend I had there said it was because I was always trying to get people to sign petitions to improve the place, which I guess was true, I was young, I then started cutting my hair on a regular basis and shaving.
My second job entailed leading a group through a research project and final presentation to the marketing group which turned out to be an extremely successful product for that company and it took approx. 9 months . They fired me the day after I presented, right after our celebration party.. I had 3 other jobs all ending badly. My last boss stopped talking to me and his boss took me out to lunch and we talked for a couple hours and basically told me I was a chronic insubordinate and unemployable in any professional capacity. I took 6 months off and decided he may be right so I started my own business, very small but I built it up, eventually hired a VP, then another, I sold the business when it didn?t need me anymore and started a new one and did the same thing, seemed to be my thing, building businesses but not actually running them or working for anyone. Guess everyone finds their niche. So now I am searching for a new endeavor. I would like to do something to help kids. I have always been amazed at why the medical field never seems to be able to manage money well, Hospitals go broke, Retirement communities are just plain criminal, Residential Treatment Centers are dirty and most look like they haven?t had more than a coat of paint in 40 years, all the money goes to the state and insurance companies.
The insurance companies are now managing the doctors budgets and salaries because they couldn?t do it themselves. The few success?s I have seen, from a financial stand point, are these TBS?s which seem expensive at first glance, but if you had the insurance companies or MDs run them like say Hazelden out of Minnesota the out of pocket would be well over $400/ day in my estimation. It?s a little niche that is growing and needs help to get over the hump to becoming profitable and affordable to the middle class. Of course there is the moral issues to consider, but anyway, that?s who I am and why I am here and there, no agenda.
I spend time on fornits to get a feel for the down side of the business, the negative aspects so to speak, the ones who want to see the industry fail or were hurt by it. You cant build a better car by talking to the satisfied customers, you want to talk to the guy on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck. Well at least that?s my view point. Sorry to be so long winded for a short story.
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Thank you. Why was that so difficult?
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I'll digest it, analyze it and tear it up later.
Just kidding. :smokin:
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On 2006-06-22 18:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you. Why was that so difficult? "
You may soon see.
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On 2006-06-22 18:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'll digest it, analyze it and tear it up later.
Just kidding. :smokin: "
Good Night
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The Who: still an arrogant liar; "who" knows nothing of substance about the teen help industry;but wants to appear to be in-the-know.
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Sounds like he is really just looking for another "business" to build and smells money. So
he's checking out the territory. Well, I guess he learned what a strong market there is for the TBS bullshit and needs an angle to get a foot in the door. Be interesting to see what your "business plan" for a TBS would be. "of course there is the moral issues (sic) to consider". Ah but when it comes to money that is such a small consideration. Sounds like the jackals are drooling at the starting line.
You know, WHO, in another time (like now) your behavior would have gotten you hauled off in the middle of the night to a "theraputic boarding school". Interesting to see how much angst you caused your parents, how much you screwed up and learned from it all. Tell us all how being locked away in a TBS would be superior to that? Aside from your potential profits, of course.
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MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.
Sounds like THE WHO might ought to give Sue Scheff at PURE a call. He/she (whatever it is) just might fit into her little organizatin just fine. THE WHO seems just her type; and seems to have no qualms about locking kids up in some abusive facility as long as THE PRICE IS RIGHT.
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Who and Ottawa5. They'd be a likely pair.
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"I earned a degree in engineering and went on to get my masters"
oh, please, who. you have absolutely no ability to reason or to form critical thought. if you did get a degree at all you scraped by with d's because you're not a very bright guy or a critical thinker. it does explain al lot though that your bosses all fired you and told you that you can't get a job anywhere. you're so dense that even when concepts are broken down into their component pieces you still don't understand any of it. maybe you're education is in 'custodial engineering'. that would explain some things.
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On 2006-06-22 21:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sounds like he is really just looking for another "business" to build and smells money. So
he's checking out the territory. Well, I guess he learned what a strong market there is for the TBS bullshit and needs an angle to get a foot in the door. Be interesting to see what your "business plan" for a TBS would be. "of course there is the moral issues (sic) to consider". Ah but when it comes to money that is such a small consideration. Sounds like the jackals are drooling at the starting line.
You know, WHO, in another time (like now) your behavior would have gotten you hauled off in the middle of the night to a "theraputic boarding school". Interesting to see how much angst you caused your parents, how much you screwed up and learned from it all. Tell us all how being locked away in a TBS would be superior to that? Aside from your potential profits, of course."
WELL said!!!! :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
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You know, WHO, in another time (like now) your behavior would have gotten you hauled off in the middle of the night to a "theraputic boarding school". Interesting to see how much angst you caused your parents, how much you screwed up and learned from it all. Tell us all how being locked away in a TBS would be superior to that? Aside from your potential profits, of course."
Yea, I hear ya, I think I came pretty close to military school myself, it probably would have straightened my butt out, though.
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WHO, you could voluntarily place yourself in some lockdown, you know.
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Yea, I know, but I already have someone setting me up with a wilderness challenge.
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Hopefully it involves honey and fire ants.
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miles and miles of desolate land, handcuffs, a really mean team leader, and a total lack of water might be nice too.
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On 2006-06-24 10:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
" miles and miles of desolate land, handcuffs, a really mean team leader, and a total lack of water might be nice too."
You forgot, no shoes or bathroom breaks for 3 weeks and the team leader sprinkles broken glass in front you as you walk
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There you go. You do understand, don't you? NO ONE likes you, or wants you around. Guess that's how it is in your "real world" too, huh? Is that why you live on fornits? No one else will talk to you except to tell you to GO AWAY?
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On 2006-06-24 10:51:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-06-24 10:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
" miles and miles of desolate land, handcuffs, a really mean team leader, and a total lack of water might be nice too."
You forgot, no shoes or bathroom breaks for 3 weeks and the team leader sprinkles broken glass in front you as you walk"
(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/david_LOL.gif)
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On 2006-06-24 10:35:00, TheWho wrote:
Yea, I hear ya, I think I came pretty close to military school myself, it probably would have straightened my butt out, though.
"
Did you need straightening out or were you pretty much like your peers and just needed to grow up a bit?
Military academies are a far cry from the mindrape mills.
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Bet WHO needed straightening OUT. Bet he/she/it needed a mindfuck program. Seems like he/she/it still does. Compulsive liar, manipulator, YEP a mindfuck program might be the thing needed.
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It looks like he's gearing up to start one of his own. :scared: :scared:
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WHO has already been referred to Sue Scheff/PURE.
WHO needs to hang out with people just like WHO...then they can all yak to each other.
First, he needs MONEY, and he ain't getting no financial backing around here, the dope.
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On 2006-06-24 11:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-24 10:35:00, TheWho wrote:
Yea, I hear ya, I think I came pretty close to military school myself, it probably would have straightened my butt out, though.
"
Did you need straightening out or were you pretty much like your peers and just needed to grow up a bit?
Military academies are a far cry from the mindrape mills."
I was a little more futher out than my peers. I agree that Military academy would have been much better than some of the places I have read about here on fornits, the mindrapes as you call them, sound really bad. If you are new here and have time, read up on the seed or straight threads. They are not places you would want your kids to go to.
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On 2006-06-24 11:28:00, TheWho wrote:
If you are new here and have time, read up on the seed or straight threads. They are not places you would want your kids to go to."
I'm not new and I"m all too familiar with Straight. The place almost killed me.
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WHO, don't be giving people advise. GO THE FUCK away.
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On 2006-06-24 11:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-24 11:28:00, TheWho wrote:
If you are new here and have time, read up on the seed or straight threads. They are not places you would want your kids to go to."
I'm not new and I"m all too familiar with Straight. The place almost killed me."
Sorry to hear that, there seems to be many here like yourself. It amazes me that places like that are allowed to still continue and stay in business
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On 2006-06-24 11:32:00, TheWho wrote:
Sorry to hear that, there seems to be many here like yourself. It amazes me that places like that are allowed to still continue and stay in business"
What you really don't get is that these programs today aren't really any different. They use the same techniques and tactics to break the kid down. It's an absolutely necessary part of the TBS/RTC. They can't funciton without it. They try to pass it off as the kinder, gentler version (and it may be, at least physically) but it's the same shit in a different wrapper. Look into Gilcrease and his seminars. I keep telling you that the VERY FUNDAMENTALS of behavior mod (and that's all this is, you can try and spin it as being a good thing but it's not) are dangerous. The FUNDAMENTALS. You can't put a pretty new wrapper on it and expect different results.
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They also use the same fucking shell game when people start to speak out (witness WWASPS and SCL right now)
These places are fundamentally no different than Straight.
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Who, again: you are a pick of shit. STFU.
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On 2006-06-24 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WHO, don't be giving people advise. GO THE FUCK away."
Look, my advice and posts are on the same level as yours. If you want me gone ask Ginger to PM me privately or she can ask me publicly to leave and I will, its her forum and her business and I will resect that. You should also !!
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On 2006-06-24 12:06:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-06-24 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WHO, don't be giving people advise. GO THE FUCK away."
Look, my advice and posts are on the same level as yours. If you want me gone ask Ginger to PM me privately or she can ask me publicly to leave and I will, its her forum and her business and I will resect that. You should also !!"
Hey, Who...
Name a good program.
Any, good program.
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On 2006-06-24 14:34:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
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On 2006-06-24 12:06:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-06-24 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WHO, don't be giving people advise. GO THE FUCK away."
Look, my advice and posts are on the same level as yours. If you want me gone ask Ginger to PM me privately or she can ask me publicly to leave and I will, its her forum and her business and I will resect that. You should also !!"
Hey, Who...
Name a good program.
Any, good program."
There is a place in western Massachusetts that has had a book written about it and is considered one of the better TBS?s its called ?The Academy at Swift River? or ASR. You can check out their web site for more info. I had a daughter who attended a few years ago and is doing very well. I have heard from many graduates who still keep in touch and parents also.
Another program in which I have had some experience with is SUWS of the Carolinas. Its a wilderness program 3 weeks plus.
Here are the links:
http://www.swiftriver.com/ (http://www.swiftriver.com/)
http://www.suwscarolinas.com/ (http://www.suwscarolinas.com/)
Here is a good read on ASR/TBS's if anyone is Interested. It is a little dated now, but will give you some good insight on what goes on inside some of the better places.
http://davemarcus.com/ (http://davemarcus.com/)
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-06-24 16:31 ]
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naming a "good" or "better" place/program here is really just seeting it up to be attacked without any other reason
no place/school/program is perfect, but asking/expecting a dependant to do something reasonable (clean their room, do homework before partying, be polite and courteous, whatever), and imposing consequences for failure to comply doesn't constitute abuse. yeah, some consequences like whipping would be abusive, but separating a raging kid from his peers until he calms down is not abusive
getting wet in the rain when you were given means and opportunity to stay dry is no cause for yelling abuse either
the places Who named have value for many, but that won't stop the bashing. but since they were already targets of bashing here no real damabe is done. I'd hardly add a new name to the list, though there are many
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On 2006-06-24 15:39:00, TheWho wrote:
There is a place in western Massachusetts that has had a book written about it and is considered one of the better TBS?s its called ?The Academy at Swift River? or ASR.
Considered by whom to be "one of the better"?
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On 2006-06-24 17:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-24 15:39:00, TheWho wrote:
There is a place in western Massachusetts that has had a book written about it and is considered one of the better TBS?s its called ?The Academy at Swift River? or ASR.
Considered by whom to be "one of the better"?"
From what I have read here, people I have spoke to in the industry, my own experiences.
Also if you read some of the experiences people have had at Straight and seed threads here at fornits and then compare them to the experiences from say ASR or Carlbrook threads you will see a huge difference. The later are changing and evolving. ASR has had the opportunity to experience an excellent success rate.
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On 2006-06-24 18:13:00, TheWho wrote:
From what I have read here, people I have spoke to in the industry, my own experiences.
Then make that clear. When you say it's 'considered to be' you infer a credibility it hasn't earned. People in the industry are operating under the either misguided or malicious belief (financial and the sadists that are bred in and attracted to these places) that these places are therapeutic or effective in building kids self esteem or life skills or whatever new name they come up with. There is not and never has been one shred of proof that there are any long term benefits and, as is coming more and more to light, damage is done to the psyche. Some never recover.
Also if you read some of the experiences people have had at Straight and seed threads here at fornits and then compare them to the experiences from say ASR or Carlbrook threads you will see a huge difference.
Funny you should mention that. I spent two years in Straight. I've read the Carlbrook and ASR threads. It's nothing but different wrapping. Those two might not be as physically abusive as Straight was or Spring Creek or Tranquility Bay, but believe me. The more I read the more it disturbs me. You can't fuck with these kids like that. I saw a lot of physical abuse but the worst, the stuff that lasted with me and really fucked me up for damn near 20 years was the isolation. They fuck with your instincts. They turn kids against each other on a level that you cannot comprehend. The kinds of stress these kids are under is absolutely unbelievable. You're ripped away from everything that ever made you feel safe and secure. I'm telling you the idolation, feeling like I wasn't part of the world anymore. When I tried to go back in my friends (who were all doing much worse things than I was) had all grown out of their stupidity and moved on to become productive, happy people. I never did feel like I fit back in. I couldn't fit in with other people either because of the intense experience I went through. I thought of that when the ASR employee said that the kids have a maturity level beyond their peers. That's true in one sense and false in another. I didn't have the opportunity to find my own way, I had it drilled and consequenced and phase dropped and started over into me, so I lacked that maturity but I had been through something that none of them could even begin to imagine and that gives you the kind of maturity that just feels old and tired. Funny thing is, I honestly didn't realize this for about 10 years. I tried so hard to please my father that I didn't realize what had happened to me. It wasn't until someone showed me a website dealing with cults (on an unrelated matter) that the pieces of the puzzle began to fall into place. Now I knew why I never felt right. Now I knew why I struggled so much when everyone around me seemed to be able to cope so well.
The later are changing and evolving. ASR has had the opportunity to experience an excellent success rate.
Really? Do you have anything to back that up other than exit or follow up surveys done by the schools?
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The Who is a troll.
He's here because he's frantically trying to justify having stuck his daughter in ASR.
He's so loud and vociferous because he's trying to convince himself, not us.
That, and he obviously likes the attention.
Julie
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Spot on Julie. Have you noticed too that whenever an anon calls him on his loads of shit he starts saying 'you must be new'.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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The WHO isn't even a good troll, at that. Keeps stepping in his own shit.
WHO - take a lesson. TROLLING 101 - never step in your own shit.
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I don't think he ever had at daughter in a program. Doubt if her ever even had a daughter.
Believe he thinks a program is a quick way to make money; and he may just be sick enough to actually like messing with kids. Weird guy.
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On 2006-06-24 20:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The Who is a troll.
He's here because he's frantically trying to justify having stuck his daughter in ASR.
He's so loud and vociferous because he's trying to convince himself, not us.
That, and he obviously likes the attention.
Julie"
Julie,
Please- go write another book to read in the can.
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Hey, you can read Dostoyevsky in the can!
:rofl:
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On 2006-06-24 18:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-24 18:13:00, TheWho wrote:
From what I have read here, people I have spoke to in the industry, my own experiences.
Then make that clear. When you say it's 'considered to be' you infer a credibility it hasn't earned. People in the industry are operating under the either misguided or malicious belief (financial and the sadists that are bred in and attracted to these places) that these places are therapeutic or effective in building kids self esteem or life skills or whatever new name they come up with. There is not and never has been one shred of proof that there are any long term benefits and, as is coming more and more to light, damage is done to the psyche. Some never recover.
Also if you read some of the experiences people have had at Straight and seed threads here at fornits and then compare them to the experiences from say ASR or Carlbrook threads you will see a huge difference.
Funny you should mention that. I spent two years in Straight. I've read the Carlbrook and ASR threads. It's nothing but different wrapping. Those two might not be as physically abusive as Straight was or Spring Creek or Tranquility Bay, but believe me. The more I read the more it disturbs me. You can't fuck with these kids like that. I saw a lot of physical abuse but the worst, the stuff that lasted with me and really fucked me up for damn near 20 years was the isolation. They fuck with your instincts. They turn kids against each other on a level that you cannot comprehend. The kinds of stress these kids are under is absolutely unbelievable. You're ripped away from everything that ever made you feel safe and secure. I'm telling you the idolation, feeling like I wasn't part of the world anymore. When I tried to go back in my friends (who were all doing much worse things than I was) had all grown out of their stupidity and moved on to become productive, happy people. I never did feel like I fit back in. I couldn't fit in with other people either because of the intense experience I went through. I thought of that when the ASR employee said that the kids have a maturity level beyond their peers. That's true in one sense and false in another. I didn't have the opportunity to find my own way, I had it drilled and consequenced and phase dropped and started over into me, so I lacked that maturity but I had been through something that none of them could even begin to imagine and that gives you the kind of maturity that just feels old and tired. Funny thing is, I honestly didn't realize this for about 10 years. I tried so hard to please my father that I didn't realize what had happened to me. It wasn't until someone showed me a website dealing with cults (on an unrelated matter) that the pieces of the puzzle began to fall into place. Now I knew why I never felt right. Now I knew why I struggled so much when everyone around me seemed to be able to cope so well.
The later are changing and evolving. ASR has had the opportunity to experience an excellent success rate.
Really? Do you have anything to back that up other than exit or follow up surveys done by the schools?
"
I'd like to hear Who and the other ASR person (if in fact there IS another) address this. I think it's one of the most important points. I believe that ASR is not physically abusive like some others but that really makes no difference. The damage to the psyche is far more devastating.
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All right TSW, I'll take a shot.
Then make that clear. When you say it's 'considered to be' you infer a credibility it hasn't earned. People in the industry are operating under the either misguided or malicious belief (financial and the sadists that are bred in and attracted to these places) that these places are therapeutic or effective in building kids self esteem or life skills or whatever new name they come up with. There is not and never has been one shred of proof that there are any long term benefits and, as is coming more and more to light, damage is done to the psyche. Some never recover.
I think I have been clear, all along, that my experience is as a parent with a child at ASR and experience with SUWS. But in your own statement above People in the industry are operating under the either misguided or malicious belief??? without making it clear how you know this. Is this one program you are familiar or many and how are you qualified to make this statement. I want you to make this clear also if you expect others to.
I don?t mind complying to your wishes but we should all be held to the same standard (your self included.)
Funny you should mention that. I spent two years in Straight. I've read the Carlbrook and ASR threads. It's nothing but different wrapping. Those two might not be as physically abusive as Straight was or Spring Creek or Tranquility Bay, but believe me. The more I read the more it disturbs me. You can't fuck with these kids like that. I saw a lot of physical abuse but the worst, the stuff that lasted with me and really fucked me up for damn near 20 years was the isolation. They fuck with your instincts. They turn kids against each other on a level that you cannot comprehend. The kinds of stress these kids are under is absolutely unbelievable. You're ripped away from everything that ever made you feel safe and secure. I'm telling you the idolation, feeling like I wasn't part of the world anymore. When I tried to go back in my friends (who were all doing much worse things than I was) had all grown out of their stupidity and moved on to become productive, happy people. I never did feel like I fit back in. I couldn't fit in with other people either because of the intense experience I went through. I thought of that when the ASR employee said that the kids have a maturity level beyond their peers. That's true in one sense and false in another. I didn't have the opportunity to find my own way, I had it drilled and consequenced and phase dropped and started over into me, so I lacked that maturity but I had been through something that none of them could even begin to imagine and that gives you the kind of maturity that just feels old and tired. Funny thing is, I honestly didn't realize this for about 10 years. I tried so hard to please my father that I didn't realize what had happened to me. It wasn't until someone showed me a website dealing with cults (on an unrelated matter) that the pieces of the puzzle began to fall into place. Now I knew why I never felt right. Now I knew why I struggled so much when everyone around me seemed to be able to cope so well.
But you have to understand that not every experience is the same, not every school is the same. These kids at ASR can just get kicked out if they stop working. Could you do that? Could you just say ?These people are wacko and sick, I?m outa here? Well they can at ASR. It really is different.
When I first came on to fornits I felt I would be able to teach you guys a thing or two because I thought all TBS?s and RTC were the same and beneficial to everyone, but I learned this is not the case and some are very abusive and unhealthy.
But also over the past year I have seen what a tight bunch all of you are. If something positive about a school is brought to light or an improvement is made there is so much posturing and/or denial i.e.
No fences: ?Well, this doesn?t mean anything, there is still the mid control that goes on, even if they leave , their parents will put them in a tougher program? This can apply to any situation in life its not within the schools control. The school is still abusive.
No escorts or restraints: ?Well, this still is no improvement, restraints don?t have to be physical, they could be mental. They abuse the kids, that we heard and believe?
100% of the kids who apply to college get in ?Well, Hmmm, ASR is unaccredited and therefore must be hiding something?, doesn?t matter that the kids are getting a good education and tied in with the local school system, this point is ignored. (Don?t get stuck on the 100% stat it was mentioned by a previous ASR person in the past, probably a one year stat) I don?t believe in absolutes.
You see no difference between what you read on the Straight threads and threads like ASR because you don?t want to. If you admit that maybe one kid benefited from one program over the past 30 years then there must be more because one is an aberration more than one is a success and statistically we could not justify or explain the ?one off ? that occurred and would have to expect more. Expecting more would lead to a process that was working (having a positive effect) and this goes against what many here at fornits stands for, or at least posts openly.
No two things are alike !! look and accept the differences and start thinking for yourselves, nothing is black and white.
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Previous was mine
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And what exactly was your point, WHO? That maybe, perhaps, one kid was helped in SOME program? Just maybe, perhaps the kid just grew up, and was going to be OK, program or NOT.
Again, STFU.
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On 2006-06-25 18:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"All right TSW, I'll take a shot.
I am NOT TSW. Don't make that mistake again.
I think I have been clear, all along, that my experience is as a parent with a child at ASR and experience with SUWS.
Once again, when you make a statement like "ASR is considered to be" you infer a credibility not earned.
But in your own statement above People in the industry are operating under the either misguided or malicious belief??? without making it clear how you know this.
Because no one in all the decades that this shit has been going on has been able to come up with one shred of proof that these places are any more effective than keeping your kid at home. The percentage of teens who truly need to be removed from the home is infantesimile and those truly do have emotional or mental issues that cannot be properly addressed in those places and are very often made much worse.
But you have to understand that not every experience is the same, not every school is the same.
By the ASR employees own admission this is an issue with the students. No, not every school is the same BUT, and this is an important but, they ALL use the same basic techniques experimented with and perfected on myself and thousands of others over the decades. The process may be more subtle, but the results can be just as damaging.
These kids at ASR can just get kicked out if they stop working. Could you do that?
No, but I'm all too familiar with 'exit plans' and the like. That's not much of a choice.
Could you just say ?These people are wacko and sick, I?m outa here? Well they can at ASR. It really is different.
There's the exit plan issue and the issue of the subleties of the process now. I've given you links before to Singer's and Clifton's studies. I cannot stress enough what isolation can do to a person. You lose touch with what's normal. There is no system of checks and balances and what begins as seeming freaky slowly becomes normal. Combine that with knowing that if you fuck up here, you're pretty muched fucked. If you try and say 'these people are whacked, I'm outta here' you're confronted or cajoled or talked into or threatened with shunning from the family and it's a pretty powerful tool. THAT is what I'm talking about when I say you can't fuck with a kid's psyche like that.
When I first came on to fornits I felt I would be able to teach you guys a thing or two because I thought all TBS?s and RTC were the same and beneficial to everyone, but I learned this is not the case and some are very abusive and unhealthy.
But also over the past year I have seen what a tight bunch all of you are. If something positive about a school is brought to light or an improvement is made there is so much posturing and/or denial i.e.
Again, because the FUNDAMENTALS of how these places work and I don't deny they work, they do change behaviors but at a price, are inherently dangerous.
I>No fences: ?Well, this doesn?t mean anything, there is still the mid control that goes on, even if they leave , their parents will put them in a tougher program? This can apply to any situation in life its not within the schools control. The school is still abusive.
See above and I'm not saying ASR is out there beating kids, but I am saying that they are emotionally and mentally damaging.
i>No escorts or restraints: ?Well, this still is no improvement, restraints don?t have to be physical, they could be mental. They abuse the kids, that we heard and believe?
See above.
100% of the kids who apply to college get in ?Well, Hmmm, ASR is unaccredited and therefore must be hiding something?, doesn?t matter that the kids are getting a good education and tied in with the local school system, this point is ignored. (Don?t get stuck on the 100% stat it was mentioned by a previous ASR person in the past, probably a one year stat) I don?t believe in absolutes.
But that's one of the major points. They claim successes they cannot possibly back up. Plus you really don't realize what has happened sometimes for years afterward. There are people I went through my place with that are very successful 'program parent' standards (for lack of a better term) but they're just as fucked up as I was for the last twenty years or so. Just in different ways.
You see no difference between what you read on the Straight threads and threads like ASR because you don?t want to.
No, you're putting words in my mouth. I do see differences, just not any that really matter.
If you admit that maybe one kid benefited from one program over the past 30 years then there must be more because one is an aberration more than one is a success and statistically we could not justify or explain the ?one off ? that occurred and would have to expect more.
First, you'd have to convince me that the person wouldn't have come out fine if they had just been left alone. Give me something other than anecdotal stories that says that the school was the cause.
Expecting more would lead to a process that was working (having a positive effect) and this goes against what many here at fornits stands for, or at least posts openly.
Yes, because I believe that most of the kids that are in these schools and programs do not actually need to be there. I think the fear mongerers and spin doctors have seen an opportunity and seized upon it. Parents of teenagers are some of the most vulnerable targets. They're all scared shitless and looking for THE answer. These places promise them that answer but cannot and never have been able to back up their claims.
No two things are alike !! look and accept the differences and start thinking for yourselves, nothing is black and white.
"
Well, actually this is. Most kids who are in these places do not need to be there. A child being removed from the home for any serious length of time is a huge risk and a LAST resort and again, those are the ones who are truly, honestly mentally ill and a TBS or RTC is the LAST place they should be.
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.
Because no one in all the decades that this shit has been going on has been able to come up with one shred of proof that these places are any more effective than keeping your kid at home. The percentage of teens who truly need to be removed from the home is infantesimile and those truly do have emotional or mental issues that cannot be properly addressed in those places and are very often made much worse.
But I have seen first hand as have many that these school are effective, very effective. There haven?t been any studies or evidence that support that any children have been hurt by ASR, in fact the evidence supports overwhelmingly the opposite. Kids are graduating and doing extremely well. You know that if you have been listening and/or reading here, you just refuse to see it.
By the ASR employees own admission this is an issue with the students. No, not every school is the same BUT, and this is an important but, they ALL use the same basic techniques experimented with and perfected on myself and thousands of others over the decades. The process may be more subtle, but the results can be just as damaging.
Sure there are issues, if there were not I would be suspicious. There are challenges with all schools.
No, but I'm all too familiar with 'exit plans' and the like. That's not much of a choice?...There's the exit plan issue and the issue of the subleties of the process now. I've given you links before to Singer's and Clifton's studies. I cannot stress enough what isolation can do to a person. You lose touch with what's normal. There is no system of checks and balances and what begins as seeming freaky slowly becomes normal. Combine that with knowing that if you fuck up here, you're pretty muched fucked. If you try and say 'these people are whacked, I'm outta here' you're confronted or cajoled or talked into or threatened with shunning from the family and it's a pretty powerful tool. THAT is what I'm talking about when I say you can't fuck with a kid's psyche like that.
Yes, but as you warned me, you are assuming you have credible evidence and you don?t about ASR. But I do, I have worked with a child who tried to run. There where no threats of harsher programs or treatment from myself or the school.
You are wrong here. There is no isolation or screwing with the psyche. It?s a therapeutic school for crying out load, what wrong with you. The kids feel safe and it is a place for them to grow, why try to compare it to your experience, its not the same. I know you really want it to be ,because it makes your cause more cohesive but it just isn?t.
Again, because the FUNDAMENTALS of how these places work and I don't deny they work, they do change behaviors but at a price, are inherently dangerous.
If they were all the same sure, but the fundamentals are different.
Different animals different schools.
But that's one of the major points. They claim successes they cannot possibly back up. Plus you really don't realize what has happened sometimes for years afterward. There are people I went through my place with that are very successful 'program parent' standards (for lack of a better term) but they're just as fucked up as I was for the last twenty years or so. Just in different ways.
There are many people here at fornits, granted, many from straight, but that is basically it. The thousands that have passed thru many of these programs are doing well and have moved on, or maybe they are all doing poorly. How do we know, they are not here to talk to. Of all the graduates from ASR we have seen what maybe one or two who didn?t do well. Compare that to the local high school, or private school or boarding school even.
Yes, because I believe that most of the kids that are in these schools and programs do not actually need to be there. I think the fear mongerers and spin doctors have seen an opportunity and seized upon it. Parents of teenagers are some of the most vulnerable targets. They're all scared shitless and looking for THE answer. These places promise them that answer but cannot and never have been able to back up their claims.
Their parents who know them the best, love them and care for them think differently. They know better than you or I. These fear mongers as you call them can only prey on people who already know they have a problem and need help. You cant sell a guy a horse unless he needs one.
An extremely small percentage of kids need to and end up in these programs and the parents get many other opinions before they take this big step.
I have seen the hype here, its over whelming. Log in sometime when a child dies in a program. Every article is posted. If the coroner states it was accidental or due to a pre existing condition, people scream foul, if the the same coroner says the kids died from abuse it is viewed as gospel. Either way they are added to a list of kids who died that has no acceptance criteria. Even though the death rate in TBS is no worse than any other school it isn?t viewed as such.
The industry has moved forward over the years and for at least the last year that I have been here the people here have stood still and have refused to recognize any growth and have taken on a group position that is very closed minded. If you have been here for any length of time, as you claim, then you have seen it. If you truly haven?t, wait for a new parent to log in or a child who claims to have done well in a program and then compare how they are treated here and then how a child who didn?t do well is treated here. It is so apparent.
The information that gets in here (at fornits) is skewed data, if for any other reason the reception they receive when they start speaking.
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On 2006-06-25 19:31:00, TheWho wrote:
But I have seen first hand as have many that these school are effective, very effective. There haven?t been any studies or evidence that support that any children have been hurt by ASR, in fact the evidence supports overwhelmingly the opposite. Kids are graduating and doing extremely well. You know that if you have been listening and/or reading here, you just refuse to see it.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. I asked for something OTHER than anecdotal stories. I asked for long term studies, objective research. Why can't you just admit that NONE EXIST?
Sure there are issues, if there were not I would be suspicious. There are challenges with all schools.
These are more than just issues. This is fucking with someone's core.
Yes, but as you warned me, you are assuming you have credible evidence and you don?t about ASR.
I'm going on by what I've read on the ASR website and what you and other ASR supporters AND detractors have posted here.
But I do, I have worked with a child who tried to run. There where no threats of harsher programs or treatment from myself or the school.
You are wrong here.
Was this your daughter or another student?
There is no isolation
THE ASR EMPLOYEE WHO POSTED HERE RECENTLY ADMITTED IT'S A PROBLEM. ARE YOU THAT FUCKING BLIND?
It?s a therapeutic school for crying out load, what wrong with you.
Show me the evidence that it has any therapeutic value whatsoever. Evidence, not happy stories.
The kids feel safe and it is a place for them to grow, why try to compare it to your experience, its not the same.
I compare it to my experience because I see the similarities. It's not exactly the same but it uses the same tactics albeit somewhat watered down.
I know you really want it to be ,because it makes your cause more cohesive but it just isn?t.
I don't have a cause. One of the reasons I post anon is because I don't want to be associated with any organization or group of people. I am on my own.
If they were all the same sure, but the fundamentals are different.
No they're not. All therapeutic communites arose out of Synanon which begat The Seed which begat Straight which begat dozens of others and served as a model for hundreds of others.
Different animals different schools.
Subspecies.
There are many people here at fornits, granted, many from straight, but that is basically it.
You must be new. :lol: No darlin'. There are many from many different places. Many have also come and gone long before you arrived.
The thousands that have passed thru many of these programs are doing well and have moved on, or maybe they are all doing poorly. How do we know, they are not here to talk to.
This industry has gone unnoticed for a long time. It's only now coming to light. I saw a great way to explain the rise of these places. The republicans like the programs because they can be seen as being tough on juvenile crime. The dems like it because they can point to the 'softer' programs and say that they're doing something 'alternative'. People are only now beginning to question the need for, the effectiveness of and the possible lasting damage from them
Of all the graduates from ASR we have seen what maybe one or two who didn?t do well.
How many would that be and how long have they been out?
Compare that to the local high school, or private school or boarding school even.
Compare what? You haven't given me anything.
Their parents who know them the best, love them and care for them think differently. They know better than you or I.
These parents have been bombarded with false information and rhetoric that makes them see evil behind every tree. Teens scare the hell out of parents. They're assholes. They're selfish, self destructive, impulsive, thoughtless, risk taking individuals. It's always been this way and always will be. It's only been since the advent of 'therapeutic communities' AA and the self-help movement that it's become pathological.
These fear mongers as you call them can only prey on people who already know they have a problem and need help. You cant sell a guy a horse unless he needs one.
No, but you can convince him that an animal with a pulled tendon needs thousands and thousands of dollars worth of expensive, experimental therapy to cure it.
I have seen the hype here, its over whelming. Log in sometime when a child dies in a program. Every article is posted. If the coroner states it was accidental or due to a pre existing condition, people scream foul, if the the same coroner says the kids died from abuse it is viewed as gospel.
Specifics please and I'll be glad to address them. You were screaming about the Martin Anderson case. How much more evidence do you need? The first coroner was shown to be a fucking moron and inept. Not just in Martin's case but many others prior. It was also shown that he shouldn't have even been doing the autopsy, it wasn't in his county but he was sypathetic to the sheriff's that were under fire for the death. You still refused to see anything wrong even in that case. Tell me specifically which death you're referring to.
Even though the death rate in TBS is no worse than any other school it isn?t viewed as such.
And it shouldn't be. The deaths in TBS schools are most often caused by restraint, or overexercising, or not being believed when complaining of a medical problem. That doesn't happen in a regular school.
The industry has moved forward over the years and for at least the last year that I have been here the people here have stood still and have refused to recognize any growth and have taken on a group position that is very closed minded.
Because I disagree fundamentally with the idea of therapeutic communities.
If you have been here for any length of time, as you claim, then you have seen it. If you truly haven?t, wait for a new parent to log in or a child who claims to have done well in a program and then compare how they are treated here and then how a child who didn?t do well is treated here. It is so apparent.
Yes, I have seen it. Fornits is brutal no doubt, but it doesn't make what I'm saying any less true.
The information that gets in here (at fornits) is skewed data, if for any other reason the reception they receive when they start speaking.
"
There is no data here. People may link to data, but there is none here. There are documents from various programs but they are what they are. Fornits, to my knowledge, has never laid claim to any research. They've only pointed to it.
Whew! I'm getting really tired of cutting up your posts. You just flat out ignore what you don't agree with. Someone else needs to take over for a while.
btw, I've been a regular contributor here off and on for about 4 years now.
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Thought THE WHO admitted he never had a daughter in this program, PERIOD. Now, he's back to saying he DID have a daughter in this program? His lies go round-and-round.
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Does anybody else smell something fishy when theWho claims to have worked with one of these kids that "ran"? What could possibly compel the school to call "somebody elses parent" to have them "work" with a child who isn't theirs.
BTW Who...I have never responded to any of your threads so rest assured...this is yet another person stepping up to call your BS.
I'm surprised that you keep it up...and please stop referring to yourself as the "quintessential yuppie sell out"...you gotta live large to claim that...and seeing that you are unemployed and sit at your computer 8 hours a day 6 days a week...or is that 12/7?...you obviously aren't "living large" and most certainly are not a "yuppie".
I believe that you are a Shill for ASR.
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THE WHO has been "outed" over and over.
Been called everything from an employee, jerk...you name it.
A YUPPEE he ain't.
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On 2006-06-25 21:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does anybody else smell something fishy when theWho claims to have worked with one of these kids that "ran"? What could possibly compel the school to call "somebody elses parent" to have them "work" with a child who isn't theirs.
I noticed that too. That's why I asked him if he was talking about his daughter. Hmmmm.
BTW Who...I have never responded to any of your threads so rest assured...this is yet another person stepping up to call your BS.
I'm surprised that you keep it up...and please stop referring to yourself as the "quintessential yuppie sell out"...you gotta live large to claim that...and seeing that you are unemployed and sit at your computer 8 hours a day 6 days a week...or is that 12/7?...you obviously aren't "living large" and most certainly are not a "yuppie".
I believe that you are a Shill for ASR."
He won't believe you but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one (other than TSW and DJ, love your passion guys but DAMN :roll: ).
He didn't give himself that title Ginger did out of frustration when she thought he was a parent. I'll be very interested to know what the real story is behind this guy. For a long time I thought he was just a deluded parent looking to validate what they did but things just don't feel right.
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Does anybody else smell something fishy when theWho claims to have worked with one of these kids that "ran"? What could possibly compel the school to call "somebody elses parent" to have them "work" with a child who isn't theirs.
Yes, this is extremely suspiscious. Ho did The Who have access to this child that ran from ASR? Under what circumstances should The Who be "working with" children, especially those in crisis?
This is another very unlikely story from The Who, who has proven to be a self-revealed prevaricator of the highest order.
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On 2006-06-26 04:58:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
Does anybody else smell something fishy when theWho claims to have worked with one of these kids that "ran"? What could possibly compel the school to call "somebody elses parent" to have them "work" with a child who isn't theirs.
Yes, this is extremely suspiscious. Ho did The Who have access to this child that ran from ASR? Under what circumstances should The Who be "working with" children, especially those in crisis?
This is another very unlikely story from The Who, who has proven to be a self-revealed prevaricator of the highest order.
"
Hint, Hint " Who had a Daughter who attended ASR and also ran away once.
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Anon Wrote:
Because I disagree fundamentally with the idea of therapeutic communities
This shows we may never find a mutual agreement or neutral ground here. I believe there are very good programs and abusive ones and we need to identify and separate the good from the bad and find a way to get this information out to the parents.
Telling parents they are all the same and all bad isn?t going to help their kid any, besides the fact I don?t believe it to be true.
You just flat out ignore what you don't agree with.
I am sorry you feel this way, but it isn?t true. I have modified my position here several times based on what I have learned here at fornits
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Well, The Who doesn't JUST ignore what he doesn't want to hear. He LIES and MAKES UP "data" to "support" his views.
Look here for a progression of events over several days where The Who made up some data and got busted again for it in the end. Note how his positions change 180 degrees rather than just admitting he was wrong. He just makes up a new line of BS and then acts like he was saying that all along. He truly is pathetic.
On 2006-06-26 10:59:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"The Who today:
"I just don?t think anyone can state how many professionals in the world agree with you, DJ. It is an impossible task, let it go. There is no way to support it, I don?t believe any one can."
The Who at the beginning of his little lying spree:
Posted: 2006-06-22 14:54:00
"You had approx 130 people sign the petition well lets say 150 to give you the best edge. There are probably 10,000 professionals in the U.S. (I know you compared your position to the whole world, but I dont have time nor the inclination to humor you). So you have 1.5 % of the professionals sign the paper. So if you had 1.5 % ( that agree with you) that leaves 98.5% that don?t. I would call that an over whelming majority."
Ooops! Just a little more lying in response to your other lies :lol:
YOU ARE PATHETIC.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer
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Who, you say there is no isolation at ASR yet the supposed ASR employee states that there is and it is a problem. Why is that?
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On 2006-06-26 13:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Who, you say there is no isolation at ASR yet the supposed ASR employee states that there is and it is a problem. Why is that?"
They did? I didnt see that, can you point it out to me?
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#202448 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=15966&forum=9&start=0#202448)
I understand your comments about feeling isolated from the outside world. I do think that this tends to happen at ASR, despite our attempt not to allow it to. Kids do receive newspapers and magazines, and are allowed to watch some tv- including news, sports, and appropriate movies (no sex, drugs, violence). We often talk about current events in meetings to help the kids stay in contact with the "outside" world. They also have trips on weekends and during school breaks.
I do think it's easy to lose sight of what "normal" teens are doing and thinking. We challenge the students to be really self-reflective and take on an emotional maturity that many teens don't have. Their awarness of their emotions may make them feel a little isolated from their peers after graduation.
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On 2006-06-26 13:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=15966&forum=9&start=0#202448
I understand your comments about feeling isolated from the outside world. I do think that this tends to happen at ASR, despite our attempt not to allow it to. Kids do receive newspapers and magazines, and are allowed to watch some tv- including news, sports, and appropriate movies (no sex, drugs, violence). We often talk about current events in meetings to help the kids stay in contact with the "outside" world. They also have trips on weekends and during school breaks.
I do think it's easy to lose sight of what "normal" teens are doing and thinking. We challenge the students to be really self-reflective and take on an emotional maturity that many teens don't have. Their awarness of their emotions may make them feel a little isolated from their peers after graduation.
"
Hey, good point. So this leads us to try to define isolation. Some other programs have a room they place kids in for periods of time and call this isolation, I think it was called the "hobbit". ASR doesn?t do this. But I am sure the sheer distance from home would be considered isolation. So yes, I agree, in that sense the children are isolated from family and the outside world. If someone asked me if ASR places their kids in isolation. The correct response, in my opinion, would be no they don?t. Do they feel isolated? I am sure some do.
I have gotten slammed in the past for trying to distinguish the two definitions.
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I would like to commend Anon who wrote:
"They fuck with your instincts. They turn kids against each other on a level that you cannot comprehend. The kinds of stress these kids are under is absolutely unbelievable. You're ripped away from everything that ever made you feel safe and secure. I'm telling you the idolation, feeling like I wasn't part of the world anymore. When I tried to go back in my friends (who were all doing much worse things than I was) had all grown out of their stupidity and moved on to become productive, happy people. I never did feel like I fit back in. I couldn't fit in with other people either because of the intense experience I went through. I thought of that when the ASR employee said that the kids have a maturity level beyond their peers. That's true in one sense and false in another. I didn't have the opportunity to find my own way, I had it drilled and consequenced and phase dropped and started over into me, so I lacked that maturity but I had been through something that none of them could even begin to imagine and that gives you the kind of maturity that just feels old and tired."
I also believe that the emotional damage is the hardest to deal with. I know exactly what you're saying, for I have also struggled with the effects of being "Modified". It really is disheartening and offensive to hear someone say "Oh, I thought I could come onto Fornit's and teach you guys something." Or "You know you deserved to be there because your parents know you better than anyone." What these posters, and my parents, will never know is what it's like to actually be there. I was always destined to be a smart successful person, regardless of the bad choices I made as a child. I work very hard, go to school, pay all my bills, and try to be respectful to everyone I come across because this is what life is all about. Not because my programs "taught me how to do it." I didn't complain when I had to clean, go to class, or take a time-out. Not all former students are society's trash who never grew out of their selfish ways; on the contrary, I would assume that many of us are as normal as any citizen, just trying to make it. I attended a TBS that is hardly ever mentioned here which may have people think that it is a "good" one, but as Anon said, the Modification methods are all alike, and this is what changed me for the worse. I hardly post because it seems futile to try and get others to understand; unless they've been subjected to it for many many months. I do come here to read posts and take what I can from them, and I will be the first to say that having a place where people will defend another survivor when they're called "crazy" or "lazy" or "messed-up," has made it much easier for me to feel like I belong in society, even though long-term "treatment" made it seem as though I did not.
Thanks Anon, and everyone here at Fornit's for expressing yourselves, if no one else is, I am listening.
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It really is disheartening and offensive to hear someone say "Oh, I thought I could come onto Fornit's and teach you guys something."
Sarah, I think this quote was mine, what I meant was ?contribute and teach people about TBS?s.? (my intent was to do good) But as it turned out I learned much more than I have contributed here.
I apologize if it came off as pompous and offensive to you.
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Thank you Sara. You're comments came along today at the perfect time. Just when I think no one gets it, no one sees the subleties of this you come along. It's only been in the last few years that I've really been able to comprehend the depth of what happened to me. I'm glad you're doing well. I finally am too but it's been a long, hard road.
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On 2006-06-26 13:49:00, TheWho wrote:
Hey, good point. So this leads us to try to define isolation. Some other programs have a room they place kids in for periods of time and call this isolation, I think it was called the "hobbit". ASR doesn?t do this. But I am sure the sheer distance from home would be considered isolation. So yes, I agree, in that sense the children are isolated from family and the outside world. If someone asked me if ASR places their kids in isolation. The correct response, in my opinion, would be no they don?t. Do they feel isolated? I am sure some do.
I have gotten slammed in the past for trying to distinguish the two definitions.
"
Yes, there was a room at Straight for that but that's not what I'm talking about. I was never sent to that room. I'm talking about the isolation from friends and family, from the outside world. Losing all sense of reality and normalcy and adopting the beliefs of the school as my own. The culture of fear that it bred. Kids turning on one another and reporting things that they felt 'concerned' about in other kids. It was nothing more than a snitch culture designed to keep everyone in a constant state of anxiety. People are easier to mold that way.
As Sara said, you've never been on the inside of one of these places so you could not possibly begin to understand. I, OTOH, have the ability to see this from the child's POV and the parents as I have been both.
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On 2006-06-26 14:16:00, TheWho wrote:
"It really is disheartening and offensive to hear someone say "Oh, I thought I could come onto Fornit's and teach you guys something."
Sarah, I think this quote was mine, what I meant was ?contribute and teach people about TBS?s.? (my intent was to do good) But as it turned out I learned much more than I have contributed here.
I apologize if it came off as pompous and offensive to you.
"
Who..you don't come off as pompous nor offensive...remember...you gotta live large for that. You do however...by the statements you make appear somewhat dimwitted...definately manipulative...but that is neither here nor there.
what I do find interesting is that even what you "meant" to say sounds utterly ridiculous. How is it possible to "contribute and teach people about TBS's" unless you have been there yourself...as either a student...which you were not...or a staff...which you very well may be.
Yes...I'm well aware that you are now going to wax eloquent about your daughters experience and how that in turn makes you qualified to offer your opinion on TBS's but that is about as far off as me telling people what an Ivy League College is like because my parents both attended them.
And to say that you have actually "learned" something here on Fornits....WOW.
All I see that you have learned is how the industry needs to spin the facts so that it may further manipulate parents in even more subtle ways.
Please take the time to go back and re-read your postings...you'll see...I'm surprised that you aren't working in politics.
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YEA, maybe THE WHO could go away and try his hand at politics. We did have a President who almost made a career out of defining the word "IS" remember?
And, THE WHO is offensive to many people: especially our children who were abused in these facilities. He lacks sympathy and empathy; because he MUST continue to spin his tale.
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yes...theWho does lack sympathy and empathy and any attempts he has made at it have been insincere at best.
I am a program survivor also...however...I choose not to be offended by the Who as he's really not worth getting offended over. I take his statements for what they are...
not much substance
and I realize that his intellectual capacity is really not what he purports it to be. so...rather than be offended...I would prefer that he continues to write his offensive statements...because intelligent people reading this forum for information will see him for what he is...the idiots will always be duped...just like the old saying...
"a fool and his money are soon parted"
and the TBS industry sure has a nice slice of that economic pie.
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The Who is a troll, 100%, completely, no ifs ands or butts about it. When he fucks up, and someone reposts it repeatdly, and its as if he cant' see it, over weeks and weeks, its apparent he's either a troll, or brainwashed.
Either way, the effect is the same. Ignore him and hope he goes away.
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Good one TSW!!