Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: mbnh31782 on June 17, 2006, 11:37:00 PM
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I used to work for Three Springs. The company is based out of Huntsville Alabama. I am curious if anyone has had any bad experiences with Three Springs. I know I have, and I was a counselor not a client. I do not remember much of what happened to me as a counselor from May 2004 to Sept 2004.
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There's a guy named Three Springs Waygookin who's one of the most frequent posters on this board.
He's a royal asshole, but usually right on the subject of programs.
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I think is also a troll impersonating him to make him look judgementally imparied.
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i am not a troll in any way shape or form... i also feel offended that you would think of anyone who is trying to heal from a traumatic experience a troll. At Threesprings, as a counselor, i was subjected to mental and physical abuse by the administration and some of the kids they admitted to the program. There were kids who bit counselors. I had crying spells of about 6-8 hours long and had massive panic attacks. I just want to know if other counselors of these places have experienced some of the same toxic environment
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mbnh.......Do you actually have anything to do with perverted-justice.com? Just wondering...not flaming
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off topic, yes i help out with perverted-justice.com.
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there are a lot of people here needing healing, too, mbnh. there is a lot of suspicion, and with good reason, there is plenty of trolling. try to understand that, and stay to help others if you can.
If ThreeSprings was that bad, work to end that kind of stuff, find children who went there, and parents of kids that have gripes, and work with them to end this kind of abuse.
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Currently i volunteer to save abused and neglected children as a CASA court appointed special advocate. We are a childs voice in court and providing things in the best interest of the children involved in some pretty nasty cases. I also work to get child predators off the streets and am just now starting to work on healing from Three Springs. I do understand your hesitance. as i work on this process, i do want to locate people that i may be able to help through understanding and compiling of stories to present some form of a case to someone who might be able to shut some places down permanently.
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well, that seems admirable to me. I am trying to help spread knowledge about how these joints operate, I was sadly involved in the decision to send a child to one of these "schools" would that I could have been there to help.
As far as I am concerned, the schools are far more about business and money than helping kids. Some may have started with good intentions, but they lost sight of that long ago.
I think any parents looking for answers need to look for negatives about these places, they are told only positives by ed-cons and the school itself.
A lot of the survivors in Fornits have tales more harrowing than yours, no offense. cut them some slack, overlook what you think are attacks on you. Look at the greater good of closing evil places.
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of course, i apologise it was a knee jerk reaction to a subject matter that has been rather like tearing off a scab of an old wound and making it bleed again. to give an idea of what i went through at three springs, i'm going to post my story below....
****** MAY TRIGGER SOME PEOPLE*****
When I graduated college, I obtained a job that was extremely emotionally damaging. I worked as an adolescent youth counselor for a company called Three Springs. Their entire website consists of lies. They talk about the success of the program and how therapeutic it is for the children. The *state* Department of Juvenile Justice supported the program I went to. All the children who attended were legally in the custody of the state for a period of 2 years. They had kids there who were only there temporarily until permanency could be obtained. Eventually the state lost funding for their temporary programs and shut down the ?shelter? at the facility.
Three Springs had boy programs and girl programs. The one I worked with was girls? only. They would leave us alone with 10-12 teenage girls. These girls would range in age 11-18 with the average age being around 16. Most of the girls were in custody due to truancy, stealing, drug, and alcohol use. These girls had a temper that could not be matched sometimes. I went home with bruises from some of these kids.
Throughout the entire employment, I was having panic attacks and crying for sometimes 6-8 hours at a time. I could not bring myself to stop crying at times. When I would get it under control, I would be good for about 1 or 2 hours then go back to crying. I couldn?t mentally function or physically bring myself to function. There came a time when I was so tired and exhausted mentally and physically that I just shut myself off from everything and everyone. I became a zombie. I have since not cried like that and sometimes I wonder if I am ok because I don?t cry as often as I would like to. I wonder if it?s ok sometimes to not feel emotion or if sometimes I feel too much emotion. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision to quit and leave or if it was as bad as I thought it was.
***Actual Story as written in October of 2004***
i quit my job Friday September 10th 2004 and its a decision i DO NOT regret.
The only true regret i have is that i did not get a chance to process with the children and tell the children they are not the reason i quit the job.
i worked at an adolescent treatment facility that focused on an aspect in the outdoors.. or an outdoor treatment program. affectionately called OTP by the courts. The kids sent to the facility were in the custody of the Department of Juvenile Justice. these kids had charges against them in most cases would cause them to be committed to the state for a period of 2 years. several of them came from broken families and broken times. several of them were victims of rape, abuse, and incest in their own families. several of them had lives and friends that were threatened by gangs. this treatment facility was designed to help them gain responsibility and help them put their lives back in order. BULL S***! You will see the reason why i say this later in this story... read on.
The kids were ok, they were in the process of getting their lives together.... however through out this process, and the main reason why i quit was because of the Administration.
The Administration was abominable. The Administration refused to look out for the safety and health of ANY of the counselors employed at the facility. In more than 90 days of employment, i did not recieve any positive reenforcement, in the form of notes/encouraging words, that i was doing at least really well in one area. None of my co counselors recieved any positive words either. Most of the feedback given us was in the form of negative criticism and instead of contsructive criticism it became destructive.
The Administration left Counselors each alone with 10-12 teenage girls who WILL gang up on you and beat the Shit out of you if they so desire. Not to mention, these girls will hurt each other. i had bruises on my arms from trying to contain one of these girls while the girl was trying to run away. I have also gotten threatened by one of the girls. One counselor has been beaten up by one of the girls at the facility. The girl apparently used a metal pole and the counselor had to be pulled away by fellow counselors and removed from the situation where the counselor promptly fell into unconciousness. The girls have bit, kicked, and otherwise done everything but pull a gun or knife on us.
i guess the red flag should have gone up when i heard the story of the counselor being beaten up.
The second red flag should have gone up when i heard that a counselor locked herself in the bathroom because she didnt want to be with the children. She was scared to be with them. She was also having panic attacks due to the stress of the job and being around the children. She wasnt the only counselor who had panic attacks either.
My third red flag should have been standing tall and proud when 2 co counselors walked out mid shift. One counselor did that two months ago and one counselor did that 2 weeks before i quit.
About a week and a half before i quit, i sat for 26... thats twenty six hours in one room with 2 kids that were refusing to do anything and:
1. I had no instructions on how to deal with them
2. I had no breaks except for 4... 5 minute potty breaks
If that isnt psychologically damaging i dont know what is.
There should have been a fourth red flag there when i found out that a fellow counselor had returned to therapy because of the children and lack of support from the administration. Her therapist said to her, where you work is psychologically damaging and is not healthy for anyone. He wanted to put her back on medication.
So Friday, September 10, 2004 I call in i say "hi... i quit" the administration laughed and then realised i was serious after i wasnt laughing. i talked to the director who gave me the whole schpiel about being unprofessional and not giving 2 weeks notice. i said effective immediately i quit! I had gone to speak to them once with solutions to the problems, each time i stated a solution i got the "we cant do that because" or "thats not going to work because". The second time i went to speak to the administration, i told the director "i want to quit" and she launched into this entire speech on how young people today dont have the drive to succeed and the want to see things through to the end and that i was being very unprofessional by telling her i wanted to quit and not giving two weeks notice. i told her i said i wanted to quit... i then said i didnt say "i quit".
This job got so bad that i was calling my mom on just about every shift in tears. i shut off emotionally for 2 weeks and was like a zombie and it scared me because i didnt feel that balance.
i called my father September 10 in tears before i was supposed to go on shift i said... dad i want to go back and work at petsmart ( a place that i used to work and it was hell i hated it when i left for college) he's like damn its bad! I was having panic attacks on every shift and every off shift right before i had to go into work. i decided for my emotional and physical health and safety and sanity that i needed to get the hell out of there.
This place needs to be shut down by the state.[ This Message was edited by: mbnh31782 on 2006-06-17 23:31 ]
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Just make sure you are comfortable with what you say....I know the HLA people routinely threaten legal action, assume others do as well. I advocate that if you have the goods on these people, speak out! If enough screaming is heard, action will result.
This is a good forum for speaking out, I wish I had found Fornits about 8 months sooner, and that the circumstances of my own life had been different.
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how in hell can you help the kids when the counselors all need counseling? The girls there very likely felt they were fighting for their lives-and rightly so. That is what you are up against.
No Offense, again...but sounds like you aren't cut out to counsel..it can be extremely rough. I'm not referring to counseling in these schools, but even in private sessions.
If you need counseling , you should get it. Good caringcounseling can definitiely work. It sounds like it beat you up emotionally...I think your schooling did not prepare you for the realities.
However...it's ultimately about helping the kids. Do what you can about closing these places. People who have worked in them hold many of the keys, they need to speak out and document wherever possible.
Call authorities, your state gov't people, the state gov't people where it happened. Raise hell!
write to http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org) , tell them your story, they have watchlist for these places. Tell whoever you can
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I dont think it was because i was not cut out to be a counselor. I have been in other situations as a summer counselor for a girlscout camp as well as for a special needs camp. And while those camps had their moments of less than perfect running, they were not nearly as psychologially trying as Three Springs. I admit that maybe i wasnt specifically prepared to work with the population however, i've also worked at another facility similar but their methods of dealing with the kids were 10 times better than threesprings. In retrospect, it wasnt the kids that were the problem as much as it was the lack of support and guidance from the administration. I recognize how the kids felt entirely. The thought process revolved around safety. IF the administration did not make the employees feel safe, then the kids didnt feel safe through the employees. The kids would revolt and cause problems for the employees who felt unsafe, and the administration would turn it back on the employees claiming that the employees were "not doing their jobs".
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http://www.threesprings.com/who_we_are/staff.asp (http://www.threesprings.com/who_we_are/staff.asp)
does this describe the staff? do they in fact have BAs? Have noted that many schools do not have the staff credentials they claim to have.That is one avenue to pursue the companies, false advert, and /or not meeting state requirements
parents see a page like the above, and think their kid will be well cared for, counseled, and helped. Parents may also be looking for a way out, wrongly...but the main thing is the kids are ending up in these places, and they are not being helped in so many cases.
Please help if you can...you will gain healing from helping, I think
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Let me address that page one thing at a time.
Question: do they in fact have BAs?
Answer: Yes, All Staff have Bachelors degrees, however the field is questionable. I have a degree in Outdoor Education for example. Other people there had degrees in varying fields some of which did not directly relate to social services.
**THE REST OF THESE POINTS WILL ADDRESS THE WEBPAGE LISTED ABOVE WITH QUOTES AND ANSWERS.***
DISCLAIMER - THESE ANSWERS ARE BASED SOLELY ON THE ONE PROGRAM I WORKED FOR. OTHERS ARE WELCOME TO THEIR OWN INSIGHT AND OPINIONS.
Statement: Qualified consulting psychologists and psychiatrists, so your child has access to professional psychiatric care. We also work with your referring professional to make sure he or she is still involved in your child?s care.
Answer: The only qualified medical people on site were a RN and an LPN and a Doctor who would come on campus once a week. The RN and LPN would be there Monday through Friday. No qualified medical professional was on site Saturday or Sunday and nights during the weekday. I do believe we had a psychiatrist that would come on campus once a month to evaluate the residents and make medication changes. Most of the "therapy" advertised was conducted by Direct Care Counselors and cabin supervisors also known as Family Service Workers. These group "therapy" sessions typically included watching a movie that was recorded from :ifetime or a movie about drug and alcohol use. We watched 28 Days with Sandra Bullock when exploring alcoholism. These "therapy" sessions happened twice a week and only lasted an hour. Most of the time was spent cleaning and doing yardwork called "vocational" work.
Statement: Direct Care Counselors, who work with your child on a daily basis, hold at least a bachelor degree in social science or therapeutic recreation.
Answer: Average turnover for this position was 3 months. Even less in some cases. People just had to have a Bachelors Degree period. Most activities were supervised by the Counselors. Counselors were also expected to cook for the group if the girls did not have the "privilege" to cook.
Statement: Family Service Workers, who will be working with your whole family, have a minimum of a bachelor degree in social science and are supervised by someone with a master?s degree in counseling or a related field.
Answer: Bachelors Degree needed in anything and simply an entry level position similar to a counselor position. I could have been a Family Service Worker but I would have had to be a counselor first. These positions were considered similar to a supervisory position over the counselors but were on the same wavelength as counselors. Some people who were in the position were no more qualified to conduct therapy sessions as I was as a counselor.
Statement: Training.
Answer: Yes, there was training.
As far as the school is concerned, I'm sure the teachers were qualified.
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if you are saying bad things about 3 springs who posts here about his involvment in schools- yeah you are a troll trying to make him look bad. He has taken the brave step to go foward wwith what program has people do what he saw and what he partook in. The best way to shut him up is to attack him for the very thing that makes his testimony so valuable. Shut up and go away. 3 springs thank you
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To be honest, I dont think you've read the entire thread. I was posting about MY negative experience as a counselor employed with Three Springs the COMPANY not the PERSON. I have no beef with the guy named "three springs" here. I have no intent on flaming or defaming him at all. I happen to AGREE with alot of what he says. I think I want you to read more in the thread before you go chopping off your nose despite your face.
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Sure thing. I'm not sure you read my post either I said "IF you are saying...."
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Three Springs Wayne County in Georgia.
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no big deal... If you have YIM or any form of messenger, feel free to hit me up.
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hit me up in yim or wherever, what kinda details were you looking for? like the way the place ran?
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three springs, wasn't your story posted on CAFETY? waht happened??? any plans to repost?
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On 2006-06-18 19:04:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I have YIM and MSN might drop you a line later. Today I am off to Seoul need to get my hand phone fixed to do some job interview stuff. Decided my current slave mill is not the place for me so I gave them my walking papers.
Looking at going to china in August for a month of vacation and maybe even heading back to the Estados Unidos in september.
enough about me give us some of the goods.
DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS...
the more the better because all sorts of things can be learned from even the most mundane of factiods. Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is.
MARGARET MITCHELL
"
Take the ferry to QingDao,its the most comfortable and clean one,and QingDao is a good Chinese city to arrive in.
QingDao has train connections to everyplace in China.
If you want to see Beijing,its best to go to QingDao then to Beijing.
Ill post some TRAIN TICKET INFORMATION here.
I have the latest Chinese Train Timetable Book,and its more accurate that any of the online timetables.
I can tell anything I want you to know about China.
Later I will post some info about the REAL places in China you can visit rather than the fake tourist stuff in Lonely Planet.
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On 2006-06-18 19:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-18 19:04:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I have YIM and MSN might drop you a line later. Today I am off to Seoul need to get my hand phone fixed to do some job interview stuff. Decided my current slave mill is not the place for me so I gave them my walking papers.
Looking at going to china in August for a month of vacation and maybe even heading back to the Estados Unidos in september.
enough about me give us some of the goods.
DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS...
the more the better because all sorts of things can be learned from even the most mundane of factiods. Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is.
MARGARET MITCHELL
"
Take the ferry to QingDao,its the most comfortable and clean one,and QingDao is a good Chinese city to arrive in.
QingDao has train connections to everyplace in China.
If you want to see Beijing,its best to go to QingDao then to Beijing.
Ill post some TRAIN TICKET INFORMATION here.
I have the latest Chinese Train Timetable Book,and its more accurate that any of the online timetables.
I can tell anything I want you to know about China.
Later I will post some info about the REAL places in China you can visit rather than the fake tourist stuff in Lonely Planet."
ALERT!!!
The "error" in my typing the above reply was not my fault.
It was created by this message board;
EXAMPLE:
When I type:("You should do it"),comes out as "I want you to do it".
The phrase above "I can tell anything I want you to know...",I DID NOT WRITE THAT!
I wrote ("I can tell you anything you want...").
This board is censored!!!
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On 2006-06-18 22:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-18 19:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-18 19:04:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I have YIM and MSN might drop you a line later. Today I am off to Seoul need to get my hand phone fixed to do some job interview stuff. Decided my current slave mill is not the place for me so I gave them my walking papers.
Looking at going to china in August for a month of vacation and maybe even heading back to the Estados Unidos in september.
enough about me give us some of the goods.
DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS...
the more the better because all sorts of things can be learned from even the most mundane of factiods. Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is.
MARGARET MITCHELL
"
Take the ferry to QingDao,its the most comfortable and clean one,and QingDao is a good Chinese city to arrive in.
QingDao has train connections to everyplace in China.
If you want to see Beijing,its best to go to QingDao then to Beijing.
Ill post some TRAIN TICKET INFORMATION here.
I have the latest Chinese Train Timetable Book,and its more accurate that any of the online timetables.
I can tell anything I want you to know about China.
Later I will post some info about the REAL places in China you can visit rather than the fake tourist stuff in Lonely Planet."
ALERT!!!
The "error" in my typing the above reply was not my fault.
It was created by this message board;
EXAMPLE:
When I type:("You should do it"),comes out as "I want you to do it".
The phrase above "I can tell anything I want you to know...",I DID NOT WRITE THAT!
I wrote ("I can tell you anything you want...").
This board is censored!!!"
This happens to everyone. It's a bullshit word-changer to "get to the real point" as in when someone says "you need to" they are really saying "I want you to." It's stupid and many have complained about it with no result.
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Did you work there when that girl died the 21 day hiking trip in VA from that program?
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On 2006-06-19 05:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-18 22:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-18 19:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-06-18 19:04:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I have YIM and MSN might drop you a line later. Today I am off to Seoul need to get my hand phone fixed to do some job interview stuff. Decided my current slave mill is not the place for me so I gave them my walking papers.
Looking at going to china in August for a month of vacation and maybe even heading back to the Estados Unidos in september.
enough about me give us some of the goods.
DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS...
the more the better because all sorts of things can be learned from even the most mundane of factiods. Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is.
MARGARET MITCHELL
"
Take the ferry to QingDao,its the most comfortable and clean one,and QingDao is a good Chinese city to arrive in.
QingDao has train connections to everyplace in China.
If you want to see Beijing,its best to go to QingDao then to Beijing.
Ill post some TRAIN TICKET INFORMATION here.
I have the latest Chinese Train Timetable Book,and its more accurate that any of the online timetables.
I can tell anything I want you to know about China.
Later I will post some info about the REAL places in China you can visit rather than the fake tourist stuff in Lonely Planet."
ALERT!!!
The "error" in my typing the above reply was not my fault.
It was created by this message board;
EXAMPLE:
When I type:("You should do it"),comes out as "I want you to do it".
The phrase above "I can tell anything I want you to know...",I DID NOT WRITE THAT!
I wrote ("I can tell you anything you want...").
This board is censored!!!"
This happens to everyone. It's a bullshit word-changer to "get to the real point" as in when someone says "you need to" they are really saying "I want you to." It's stupid and many have complained about it with no result."
It happens because the program that the admin was in would contantly tell us that we needed to do this or that. It's a tiny dig towards them and well earned. Jesus Christ! Lighten the fuck up. :roll:
Easy fix, watch. I want you to. y0u need to
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the 21 day hiking trip happened before i got to wayne county threesprings. i had forgotten about that but now that i think about it they told us about it in training.
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Supposedly she had heart problems and should have never gone on that trip. They also had a suicide at the Tuskeegee program in 2000.
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thanks for reminding me. do you have any newspaper articles on it?
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Can you provide news links to either of these deaths? Or provide any other specific information I might use in a search? Approximate dates, names, etc.
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No they were well buried. All that you can find is the settlement that the family got in Tuskegee if you look very hard. You can't find anything about the incident on the Wayne County girl that was covered up as soon as it happened.
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Wayne County was roughly in May or June of 2003 and Tuskeegee was in maybe Feb or March 2000.
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Because so many programs are not licensed it is difficult to get accurate data on deaths, injuries, assaults, etc.
I don't remember, is Three Springs licensed? Rather, are any of their facilities licensed?
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it would have probably been june or july of 2003 then... i remember them talking about it being in the summer. when i was there the school let out for like a month in june/july... so it would have had to be implemented right around there... i think there was talk about her heart problems and an asthma attack of sorts which caused her heart to stop....
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Are the kids at Three Springs given a thorough physical before particpation?
Are the meds they are taking a consideration?
How were ya'll trained to deal with this?
Where I"m going, is that many of the kids who have died in programs were on psych meds which cause the kid to easily overheat and/or get overly excited easily. Some (amphetimines) negatively effect the heart.
And given the rigors or wilderness, why would anyone in their right mind, that knows what goes on in these places, allow a child with asthma to be enrolled?
Given the risks, it seems like programs would proceed with extreme caution where meds are concerned. But then, they really aren't loosing sleep over kids dying. These two deaths,if legitmate, are not the first that have been covered up and kept out of the media.
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Question: Are the kids at Three Springs given a thorough physical before particpation?
Answer: The kids are sent by the Department of Juvenile Justice. Their med records are faxed over by the State. If they get sick, there are registered nurses on staff for 5 days out of 7 days from 8-5 pm. A doctor is available by appointment, he also comes out once a month or so I think. There is also a psychiatrist that comes out 2 times a month or once a month.
Question: Are the meds they are taking a consideration?
Answer: Probably not, the kids are on antipsychotics and stuff for depression. Seroquel is a popular drug dispensed.
Question: How were ya'll trained to deal with this?
Answer: About a month long training including CPR and Basic First Aid. Most of the training focused on Department of Juvenile Justice stuff as well as how to contain/restrain kids properly.
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If the meds they are taking aren't a consideration, they damned well should be.
There's at least one class of antipsychotics, the neuroleptics, that make it irresponsible and grossly negligent to take the patient out on some extended trek outdoors.
Julie
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yep... one kid, if i remember correctly, was on lithium... or something to that effect... it was some absurdly nasty drug that she shouldnt have been in the sun, yet every day she was. we were made aware of her meds thanks to my friend who was the RN there. I made sure to stop her every 15 minutes and make her drink some water.
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You're still a programmie at heart, TSW. Stage system? The only response to that is for you to shove it up your ass. No matter how much power you think you have.
Hopefully he'll come back and kill you some day.
And the bitch who got assaulted had it coming. I hope it was anal penetration.
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***I have often wondered if they get a slice of the pie for med refills with local providers or something like that, but they sure seemed pretty keen to drug a kid up to the gills every chance they had.
Yeh, programs frequently have sweetheart deals with local pharmacies.
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http://www.showmenews.com/2001/Sep/20010914News014.asp (http://www.showmenews.com/2001/Sep/20010914News014.asp)
Written in 2001
Story ran on Friday, September 14 2001
TUSKEGEE, Ala. (AP) - When Dionte Pickens? body was found, it was hanging in a closet of a juvenile lockup, a black leather belt looped around the 14-year-old?s neck.
His mother believes that her child?s death last October - whether a suicide or a murder - was the result of inadequate supervision at the for-profit Three Springs detention center in Tuskegee. A lawsuit contends Pickens died while his designated supervisor was playing a video game.
The death and the lawsuit have raised questions about the treatment of juveniles at the center, run by Huntsville-based Three Springs Inc., which operates 21 juvenile programs in Alabama and six other states.
The state?s welfare agency has removed about a dozen teens who were assigned there, but the state Department of Youth Services has 25 juveniles at the Tuskegee site and 49 at a center Three Springs operates in Madison.
The state deputy chief medical examiner concluded - after an autopsy and an investigation - that Pickens? death in the cinderblock room was a suicide.
The Alabama Bureau of Investigation referred its investigation report on Pickens? death to the Macon County District Attorney?s Office. Deputy District Attorney Kenneth Gibbs said an investigation was continuing.
Several privately run facilities that treat young offenders have been criticized for poor supervision and management in several states, including centers in Colorado and Louisiana.
Wendy Brooks Crew, a lawyer for Pickens? mother, said Pickens had been locked up in Tuscaloosa for truancy when he was transferred hundreds of miles to the Three Springs center at Tuskegee. Crew said Pickens? mother was not informed in advance about the transfer.
Pickens? mother, Louisa Dunn, claims Three Springs Inc., which is paid $121.50 a day for each of the youngsters assigned to the state it keeps in Tuskegee, either allowed Pickens to be murdered by hanging or allowed him to commit suicide.
The suit contends that a doctor at Three Springs had recommended within three days of Pickens arrival that he have a psychological evaluation as soon as possible.
Instead, Pickens was "housed in a room with non-breakaway hardware" and allowed to have a belt, Crew said. Pickens never received a psychological evaluation and his death was more than a month after his arrival, she said.
Three Springs knew that Pickens, who was taking anti-depressant and psychotropic medication, had previously attempted suicide, Crew said.
Three Springs attorney Marc Givhan said the company is saddened by the death, but would not comment beyond that.
While the state continues to use the Tuskegee facility, state Human Resources Commissioner Bill Fuller said that after he heard about Pickens? death, he removed all of the "12 or 13" abused and neglected teens who were assigned there.
"The atmosphere was generally oppressive for my children," Fuller said.
"My primary reason was not the recent death so much as the physical conditions that my boys were exposed to day-to-day, a confinement atmosphere," he said.
******it took me forever to find this single article******
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Thanks mbnh31782
I know researching this stuff is time consuming. I've spent many hours myself.
Nothing on the Wayne Co death?
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not yet... TSW is looking too. If I had a name, I could look in archives. but i dont have a name
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On 2006-06-20 19:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You're still a programmie at heart, TSW. Stage system? The only response to that is for you to shove it up your ass. No matter how much power you think you have.
Hopefully he'll come back and kill you some day.
And the bitch who got assaulted had it coming. I hope it was anal penetration."
How doe giving an honest picture of what you have seen and done make you a progrmmee? These people are using what whey know to inform people. You are just an offensive pig!
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On 2006-07-03 04:14:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"Ignore them if I cared I would have taken the piss out of them myself. "
(http://http://www.clint.ca/argue/argue.jpg)
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I have found an article before that shows the amount that Three Springs paid the family. It actually was a very small settlement amount considering the circumstances. If you would like I can go back and find the article again and post it for you.
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Yes, please post the article. Thanks!
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http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinche ... _hiker.asp (http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/030709/Area_hiker.asp)
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thats the Wayne County death that i had heard about in training.. good to see that another person found the article.... unfortunately it says nothing about Three Springs being involved but the date and stuff fits with when they would have been on the trail. I'm going to google her name and see what i come up with.
Printed in 2003
Wednesday, July 9, 2003
Va. State Police Still Puzzled By Young Trail Hiker?s Death
By Karl B. Hille
The Winchester Star
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Virginia State Police are still awaiting autopsy results on a Georgia girl who collapsed July 2 on the Appalachian Trail in Clarke County.
Danita Ritchie, 15, of Gwinnett County, Ga., was hiking with a group of young people near the Clarke-Loudoun County line when she became ill, State Police said.
By the time rescue workers could reach the remote section of trail, Ritchie was beyond help, said Trooper Richard McClanahan.
There was no indication of foul play or injury, McClanahan said.
?I?ve talked to the pathologist that did the autopsy,? he said. ?She told me there wasn?t any injuries. She thought it [the cause of death] was going to be medical, but she was waiting for results to come back from the lab to determine the exact cause.?
He said it could take six to eight weeks for a final report from the coroner?s office in Fairfax.
Ritchie collapsed on Buzzard Hill, McClanahan said, which is located on a portion of the trail known to hikers as ?the Roller Coaster? because of its steep climbs and descents.
He said the group of hikers was about two miles north of Morgans Mill Road, near Mount Weather.
Clarke County Sheriff Dale Gardner said last week that Ritchie was the second teen to report health problems while hiking that portion of the trail in recent days.
The week before, a 15-year-old boy became ill while hiking and was helped from the trail, Gardner said.
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googled name and came up with this
Both are from archived/cached pages.
Posted on Sat, Jul. 05, 2003
Authorities say Gwinnett teen died from cardiac arrest while hiking Appalachian Trail
Associated Press
SNICKERS GAP, Va. - A 15-year-old girl from Georgia died in a remote area of the Appalachian Trail from cardiac arrest, Virginia authorities announced on Friday.
Danita Ritchie of Gwinnett County was hiking with a group of young people from Lawrenceville near the Clarke-Loudoun county line when she became unconscious at about 2 p.m. Wednesday, state police said. She was pronounced dead on the trail an hour later.
Her body was taken to Fairfax for an autopsy on Thursday.
The group, from an all-girl school in Jesup, was on a section of the trail known as "The Roller Coaster" because of its steep rocky climbs and sharp descents, officials said. By the time rescuers reached the rugged area, there was nothing they could do, Trooper Richard McClanahan said.
The medical examiner said she became dizzy and her heart had sped up, causing the heart attack, said Donald Ritchie, Danita's father.
"Danita was a great girl," he told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "She was an artist. She played the piano and she wrote poetry. This is very difficult because to me she is still a baby."
AND********************************************************
Gwinnett hiker, 15, dies on Appalachian Trail
The Associated Press
SNICKERS GAP, Va. -- A 15-year-old girl from Georgia died after becoming ill
in a remote area of the Appalachian Trail on Wednesday, authorities said.
Danita Ritchie of Gwinnett County was hiking with a group of young people
from Georgia near the Clarke-Loudoun county line when she became ill, state
police said.
The group was on a section of the trail known as "The Roller Coaster"
because of its steep rocky climbs and sharp descents, officials said. By the
time rescuers reached the rugged area, there was nothing they could do,
Trooper Richard McClanahan said.
"There's no indication of foul play," McClanahan said. "It appears to be a
medical thing. At this point we have no idea what kind of medical problem it
was."
Richie's body was taken to Fairfax for an autopsy to be performed Thursday.
By late afternoon, a heavy fog and mist had settled in on portions of the
mountain, and Red Cross volunteers waited in a steady rain for the stunned
hikers in the group to emerge from the trail. The group was taken to the
Blue Ridge Fire and Rescue Squad.
"They were pretty upset, but they calmed down, and the Red Cross and the
fire department auxiliary got them something to eat," McClanahan said.
It was the second time within a week that a 15-year-old required assistance
on the same stretch of trail, Clarke County Sheriff Dale Gardner said. Last
week, a boy took ill while hiking and was helped from the trail, but he is
expected to recover.
"It's one of the roughest parts of the trail," Gardner said.
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i'm really glad this thread was started -- i've been going through all the boards and getting familiar with the setup here, and it's good to see something about three springs.
-- i absolutely don't discount being able to read other experiences with other programs... but here's my chance to say:
me too. in owens cross roads. for me - it was 1997-1998.
just wanted to introduce myself.
and i also wanted to say to those of you that are ex-TS staff: my heart is open to you, and i am glad you are here too. i still have one ex-staff friend in real life and we have shared our struggles like we were fighting the war together -- which we were. good staff, and good kids --- i know that good staff people exist. i guess it's just important for me to say that.
you know as well as we do the monsters that were employed there -- in whatever year's incarnation of the program you were up against.
i think that my point is that i'm glad this site is here for us. even though i've gotten about it a rambly way. :oops:
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tsw... where is owens crossroads?? in alabama obviously... was it near paintrock valley?
I am surprised i lasted as long as i did.... and i'm glad you have found solace here elaine.... message me if ya wanna chat some more
I think many times staff get brainwashed just as much as the kids into thinking the program will work or that the program is the high and mighty of all. I still keep in contact with another ex staff member as well. There are other ex staff that live in my apartment complex and none of them will talk to me more than a simple hello. Its sad when people feel the need to exclude someone because they made a decision to get the hell out of a hellhole
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yeah... there are very few ppl whom i've run across that were happy with Three Springs.
Elaine, feel free to share your story too!
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I am a parent of a daughter at Three Springs Paint Rock Valley. We have been exceptionally pleased with the program and the results for our daughter.
No sugar coating here - things are not perfect. It's a tough decision for any parent to make. We have been exceptionally pleased with the staff and the corporation. Sure, it's a business. But without this business as an option, not sure where we would have turned.
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Being a former staff i feel sorry for your daughter. I hope CPS takes your child away. I'm sorry but Three Springs is NO place for a child to be. They cover up controversies and "accidents" that happen. They don't care for the kids there.
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I am a parent of a daughter at Three Springs Paint Rock Valley. We have been exceptionally pleased with the program and the results for our daughter.
No sugar coating here - things are not perfect. It's a tough decision for any parent to make. We have been exceptionally pleased with the staff and the corporation. Sure, it's a business. But without this business as an option, not sure where we would have turned.
How long has she been there? How do you calculate her success? What are the results you're pleased with?
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Prior to Three Springs she was treated for two years. Her treatment at Three Springs will be 18 months.
Treatment for what and what type of treatment? Wow. How old is this child? That's a major chunk of your childhood spent away from home and family.
The goal of the program is to re-socialize a child back into the family from the day they arrive to Three Springs. The program is highly structured to progress the child through stages, based on personal growth. Progress is guided and monitored by a published and periodically updated treatment plan specific to the individual and very detailed. Parental involvement is highly encouraged from the beginning. Monthly visits are made to the facility and within months the child starts making visits back home.
Who does the evaluations and what specifically are their qualifications for doing so?
How is parental involvement 'highly encouraged'? Can you call and speak with your child when you want to? Are phone calls monitored by anyone? Can you just drop in and see her or do you have to make an appointment?
Weekly the treatment team evaluates the progress of each individual with the input of counselors and other staff. This feedback is given to the parents. Frequent conference calls are held and can be called at any time by the child or the parent to discuss specific topics.
Who makes up the treatment team and what specifically are their qualifications?
Do you get feedback from your child? Are they able to call you and discuss things with you privately?
She has been back to visit her counselor and the counselor has reviewed the entire chart, and speaks highly of the interventions and treatment which has been given to her. That's the clinical side - and of course I know progress simply because of the relationship I have with her.
What degrees does her counselor hold?
What do the interventions consist of?
What is the treatment specifically?
Like all treatment - it truly is up to the individual to finally take responsibility for their own growth. Some people simply won't do that. No program can force a child to do that.
It seems that most of them sure try. I'm really trying to get an understanding of all this so I hope you will take the time to answer the questions.
Thanks.
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deleted.
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She has spoken at a high school to parents about her journey and what she put her family through. She doesn't want other teens to go through that.
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If this girl went to 3 springs bacause she was abused, why would the focus be on what she put the family through? If a kid became critically ill, the treatment would not have a component which emphasised the pain their reaction to it caused their family. What a terrible burden to put on a kid. I would hope any therapy surrounding the issue of abuse would focus on moving forward from something that the kid has no culpability in and restoring their faith in adults as protectors and guides!
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I hesitate to disclose too many personal details. The reason I posted my original message is because of the post that cited dissatisfaction with Three Springs. I have no knowledge of other Three Springs programs, especially those where treatment is paid through other sources, such as the state.
Although I don't know the details of most of the other teens with my daughter, having spent enough time there it's not difficult to figure many of the teens have defiant behaviors, substance abuse issues, or have been exposed to sexual abuse resulting in PTSD or other emotional and social consequences. It becomes a sea of turmoil and depression that is difficult for a child to escape from - even in a "normal" family where siblings and parents are living normal, adjusted lives.
Our counselors and medical professionals prior to Three Springs was an extensive team involved in treatment. To be sure, they were well qualified and we were highly involved and sought multiple opinions. Likewise we sought their counsel about Three Springs.
Yes, it is unfortunate when a child loses several years of their high school life. What is more unfortunate is a child who loses their whole life because of being raped or otherwise abused and they never recover emotionally or physically.
How do I know if she's made progress? Observation. Behavior changes are evident and obvious. By her own testimony, she is thankful to have had this opportunity and considers it to have saved her life. She's not "happy" to be there - she is thankful and believes it was absolutely necessary. No, she is not brainwashed. She has emerged from her cocoon and is alive again. She has spoken at a high school to parents about her journey and what she put her family through. She doesn't want other teens to go through that.
This is a residential treatment facility / school. It is not a summer camp. No, we do not call whenever we feel like it. Although, as I said, conferences can be called. Children do make home visits, in later stages every month for 5, 6, 7, or 8 days - as more days are earned. They are able to fly by themselves. Parents visit the facility every month. Obviously, there are times when private communication occurs without someone listening in.
Of course she says all that! If she doesn't, she's going to be labelled "not working the Program" and "not growing" and it'll be even longer before she can get the hell out of there.
She knows that, even if you don't.
You stuck a child abuse and/or rape victim in private prisons for three and half years? I hope when you get old, while you're still mostly healthy and could get along with a nurse coming in to help twice a week for a couple of hours, she sticks you in the stinkiest, most callous, crappiest nursing home she can find and lets you sit there and rot.
Then I hope she tells everybody that you're better off there because it has activities for people your age, and you're so much safer living there than trying to live on your own when you really can't anymore, and that really they've saved your life by protecting you from some horrible accident you could have had living in your own home.
I hope she does to you the exact same thing you've done to her, then goes around and prates to everybody about how well she's taking care of you and how well she's doing things "for your own good."
I hope she tells everyone how well you're doing in the place she picks out for you.
Julie
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It is obvious that this is someone who is a staff person talking about the program. Three Springs Waygookin can tell you that all the childrens phone calls are monitored! They start out as 5 minute calls and if the child manipulates the call they can imediately end the call. Parents get a weekly update from their family service worker in which the website says is a bachelor level or higher person with a degree in the social science field. As for the home visits the first visit is a visit on campus for the day the second visit is a visit close by for the day the third is a overnight visit close by and after that they can start earning home visits if they are all sucessful. The key is that they must earn them they are not automatic. A parent can come to the monthly parent support day and not even get to visit with their child if they are not earning it.
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I hesitate to disclose too many personal details.
I didn't really ask you for any personal details. Certainly nothing that could identify you or your daughter. I'm mainly asking about the qualifications of the people she's with and how their treatment works. I haven't attacked you in any way. I'm honestly trying to understand the kind of thinking that goes into making a decision like this. I just don't get it.
Our counselors and medical professionals prior to Three Springs was an extensive team involved in treatment. To be sure, they were well qualified and we were highly involved and sought multiple opinions. Likewise we sought their counsel about Three Springs.
So then what are the qualifications of the counselors at Three Springs?
How do I know if she's made progress? Observation. Behavior changes are evident and obvious.
How can you observe her? Sure you can go for a scheduled visit but what is that going to tell you?
By her own testimony, she is thankful to have had this opportunity and considers it to have saved her life. She's not "happy" to be there - she is thankful and believes it was absolutely necessary. No, she is not brainwashed. She has emerged from her cocoon and is alive again. She has spoken at a high school to parents about her journey and what she put her family through. She doesn't want other teens to go through that.
Yep, been there done that. Part of her may even believe that, I did after having it drilled and consequenced into my head for a couple of years but once I got back out into civilization I was lost. It wasn't until years after that I realized the extent of the damage and what I had lost.
This is a residential treatment facility / school. It is not a summer camp. No, we do not call whenever we feel like it.
Can you though if you chose to do so? Could you visit unexpectedly and speak with your child privately if you requested?
Although, as I said, conferences can be called. Children do make home visits, in later stages every month for 5, 6, 7, or 8 days - as more days are earned. They are able to fly by themselves. Parents visit the facility every month.
You're basing your 'observations' on once a month and a few monitored phone calls??
Obviously, there are times when private communication occurs without someone listening in.
Really? When would that be? Do you have to sneak to do that?
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Wow, that was fast. Deleted their posts already. What is so hard about answering a few questions? They all seem to run away when you try and pin them down to any kind of specifics.
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This isn't a group interested in open exchange.
You already know the answers... not worth my time.
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Hey, those others might not be but I am. I've asked you very direct, pointed questions without any attacks. Please answer to the best of your abilities.
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I'm going to echo and reiterate what TSW has said here with my own experiences of "treatment team" and other such things that went on.
Most of us were either victimized by programs, have children who were victimized by programs, or a select few like me worked for programs
I, too, worked for a program and can call at least 2-3 other people who worked with me who would agree with my feelings and reasons why i think threesprings is fucked up. I think i'll direct them here to fornits. I didnt nearly work there as long as TSW but, i worked there for 3 months and 2 weeks.
Let's talk about treatment team:
Yep
Each week they meet and it consists of the following, The counselors and the group's family worker. Sometimes a supervisor will sit in on the meeting, but rarely ever is that the case.
Our "treatment teams" of my group consisted of myself, my co-counselor(s), thats if we werent off schedule, my supervisor, and the program director/assistant director or both. Out of all of us, i dont think anyone had any degrees in any decent area. The program director maybe, but very rarely.
So the counselors sit around and talk about the progress of the kids through the stage system.
Yep, thats what happens, and in some cases where i worked, in the short term "shelter" area it was the points system. Alot of the kids you would think were having good days and weeks and then they dont get the advance in their stage or level because of the shitty high expectations of the program. Some of the shit they expected the kids to do in the program was nearly impossible. The percentage points expectations for all of the kids were set way too high. Instead of preparing them and helping them succeed, each week was a let down for all the kids especially those who were vindictively kept back because of a 1 percent difference. All in all after "treatment" team we were then expected to tell the kids they fucked up or passed for the week. Yay us.
This is a subjective debate, nothing objective ever enters the fold.
This is very true. All decisions were made on how well we felt the kid was doing or whether or not the kid would benefit from having that 1 percent waived. If we advocated that, we;d be seen as just wanting to avoid a conflict, if we didnt, we were told that everyone deserves a chance. So lets just dangle the 1 percent in front of the kid and pray the kid doesnt blow.
Let's see about actual treatment shall we?
What treatment?
Huddles and nightly meetings? Yep if the kid has an issue that needs confronting, or something she or he needs to talk about a huddle is called.
Huddles were rarely called except maybe before or after meals and they were mainly called to divvy up the chores the kids had to do. Occasionally we'd get a huddle that meant anything.
Nightly meetings is where they sit up in their campsite and spill the beans about their issues to the group. Alot of time the treatment team determines the topics, and the kid has to talk about it up to the level of satisfaction of the treatment team. No matter whether the kid wants to discuss it with his or her group or not.
Nightly was interesting. The most fun it got was when my group decided to use an orange cup upside down on an orange plate to simulate the fire. It was more fun watching them come up with the idea than it was to run the nightly meeting. Most of our nightlys were ended with all of us wanting to get in out of the bugs.
Group meetings were held every Tuesday and Thursday, they did a substance abuse/alcohol group and a sexual abuse group. All kids were required to participate in the groups. Again i say most of the groups consisted of watching some dumb lifetime movie about a coach who rapes a student or 28 days (which isnt a bad movie in and of itself, but in this context was completely innapropriate) They also discussed the different kinds of street drugs and played drug bingo. This was done with the supervisor of the cabin who had no real psychological training.
I discovered that at base pay, i could become a caseworker/family service worker and work in the office for no extra pay with the SAME education level i presently have.
The actual face time with a psychologist or psychicatrist is roughly 30 minutes a month maybe.
Lady I hate to burst your bubble here, but the only thing your daughter really learned is how to keep a lid on her shit long enough to fake it to make it right out of the program.
Quoted for truth.
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TSW...where is your published research and clinical trial results of what you'd do different...rather than sit on the sideline behind the keyboard and trash other programs...
I won't argue with what your experiences of done to you. But you certainly are not projecting a mature, socialized adult who has the ability to contribute to our society. Rather, you're acting like a bratty kid who wants to throw sand in the sandbox.
So, why should I listen to that?
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Shouldn't you be deleting your own posts again about now? I don't see any reason to quote it, so why don't you just go ahead?
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So, why should I listen to that?
You don't have to read his posts. Just because you don't want to hear what he says doesn't mean he should stop saying it.
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What would you do if you were me? I believe it is my responsibility to do the best I can (albeit sometimes it is inadequate) to help my children become socialized contributors to this thing we call "our society." What should we do with "troubled teens?"
I have other children who are well adjusted - although, I'm certain you would question that as well. In undergraduate schools with full academic scholarships and in post graduate. No, that doesn't mean success - but it is a measure of some success for THEM.
So I can sit on a board like this and bad mouth all the programs out there too. I can tell every parent in my situation - your child will never learn. Your doomed. Give up!!!
Does that work?
How do you measure socialization? Do you think that is one of the characteristics a program like TS is trying to accomplish? Or should? Aren't these the questions we should really be concerned about? How do you measure that?
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What would you do if you were me? I believe it is my responsibility to do the best I can (albeit sometimes it is inadequate) to help my children become socialized contributors to this thing we call "our society." What should we do with "troubled teens?"
How exactly does shipping them off to strangers, cut off from all friends and family and complete isolation from the outside world? How does this arbitrary set of rules that Three Springs seems to have (by the posting of more than one former counselor there) help a child socialize?
I have other children who are well adjusted - although, I'm certain you would question that as well. In undergraduate schools with full academic scholarships and in post graduate. No, that doesn't mean success - but it is a measure of some success for THEM.
I'm not questioning that, I'm questioning whether or not because your other child didn't choose to follow the path of academia and may have gotten into some trouble that means he's a failure in your eyes, in need of "treatment".
So I can sit on a board like this and bad mouth all the programs out there too. I can tell every parent in my situation - your child will never learn. Your doomed. Give up!!!
I'm doing quite the opposite. I'm posting about my experience with my children. I've stated before that my ex and his parents and even some school officials were dead set on sending my oldest to a program when she was about 15 or 16. She was a complete hellion, drove me nuts, scared the living shit out of me for a couple of years. Somehow, without benefit of being shipped off, she's come through as most kids do. She's now 21, fairly well adjusted and beginning her nursing career. Her maturity surpises me constantly and I credit it with her being able to go through the hardships she created for herself by her behavior and learning from it. To have sent her away and try and FORCE that on her wouldn't work and very likely would have damaged her more than what she was doing to herself, which was substantial.
How do you measure socialization? Do you think that is one of the characteristics a program like TS is trying to accomplish? Or should? Aren't these the questions we should really be concerned about? How do you measure that?
First do no harm.
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There, now I've answered your questions, please answer mine.
I hesitate to disclose too many personal details.
I didn't really ask you for any personal details. Certainly nothing that could identify you or your daughter. I'm mainly asking about the qualifications of the people she's with and how their treatment works. I haven't attacked you in any way. I'm honestly trying to understand the kind of thinking that goes into making a decision like this. I just don't get it.
Our counselors and medical professionals prior to Three Springs was an extensive team involved in treatment. To be sure, they were well qualified and we were highly involved and sought multiple opinions. Likewise we sought their counsel about Three Springs.
So then what are the qualifications of the counselors at Three Springs?
How do I know if she's made progress? Observation. Behavior changes are evident and obvious.
How can you observe her? Sure you can go for a scheduled visit but what is that going to tell you?
By her own testimony, she is thankful to have had this opportunity and considers it to have saved her life. She's not "happy" to be there - she is thankful and believes it was absolutely necessary. No, she is not brainwashed. She has emerged from her cocoon and is alive again. She has spoken at a high school to parents about her journey and what she put her family through. She doesn't want other teens to go through that.
Yep, been there done that. Part of her may even believe that, I did after having it drilled and consequenced into my head for a couple of years but once I got back out into civilization I was lost. It wasn't until years after that I realized the extent of the damage and what I had lost.
This is a residential treatment facility / school. It is not a summer camp. No, we do not call whenever we feel like it.
Can you though if you chose to do so? Could you visit unexpectedly and speak with your child privately if you requested?
Although, as I said, conferences can be called. Children do make home visits, in later stages every month for 5, 6, 7, or 8 days - as more days are earned. They are able to fly by themselves. Parents visit the facility every month.
You're basing your 'observations' on once a month and a few monitored phone calls??
Obviously, there are times when private communication occurs without someone listening in.
Really? When would that be? Do you have to sneak to do that?
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TSW...where is your published research and clinical trial results of what you'd do different...rather than sit on the sideline behind the keyboard and trash other programs...
I won't argue with what your experiences of done to you. But you certainly are not projecting a mature, socialized adult who has the ability to contribute to our society. Rather, you're acting like a bratty kid who wants to throw sand in the sandbox.
So, why should I listen to that?
Oh, lord, lady. Where are YOUR clinical trials and research that show that Behavior Modifrying your kid in a lock-up is going to help her deal with sex abuse issues?
This is INSANE.
I have been a licensed therapist for ten years and never in my professional life have I ever heard of a "program success story," much less one from a lock-up in regard to a sex crime victim. WTF were you thinking sending her for this brand of "treatment"?
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Good lord, why do I keep replying to this shit...
You think that sending kids off to isolation and brainwashing socializes them? I don't want to live in any society you're a part of. The fact that you're allowed to breathe my precious oxygen is bad enough. What the hell were you thinking when you typed that? You honestly believe that's seriously going to help?
Your broad categorization of "troubled" teens is also fundamentally bullshit. In psychological reality, people are diagnosed according to actual behavior, not the idiocy you've made up.
And it's another false request for solutions, so I'll just go over them again:
Your kid hates you: Stop being an asshole.
Your kid is talking back to you: If you're seriously going to send him away for this, send yourself away instead.
Your kid is doing drugs: Hire a PI to find out his supplier, and get that sumbitch arrested. Rinse and repeat. Your kid'll get the hint.
Your kid has uncontrollable rage: Stop being an asshole, and greatly reduce pressure. Real therapy, from a real, local, therapist. Possibly medication if the cause is organic.
Your kid is doing crappy in school: He just doesn't give a shit anymore, and there's not much you can do about that. Some kids are just not cut out for academics, period. Deal with it. A hellhole is not going to help much- even if he's forced to get higher grades, he'll simply end up falling out of college later. Either that or he'll hate you enough to get a degree, make money, and then put it to use destroying everything you stand for.
Your kid masturbates to goatse: He's just taking after his old man.
Now stop pretending to be a human being and get your post-deleting ass off the forum.
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Actually I kinda like watching them run around in circles. Give them enough rope, they hang themselves. For all to see. :D
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Mr. Connery: I'll take The Rapist for $400 Alex.
Alex: That's Therapist, Mr. Connery.
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Please answer those questions above. I answered yours.
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Please? Wow. That's so not like you.
Naw.... I think I'll just try to breath harder so I can use up more of that precious oxygen that whats-his-name thinks I don't deserve. Hmmm...was his name Hitler?
Oh, yes...that's who I want to define "socialization" for me.
Yup...just like you, this is a fun way to waste some time and get enjoyment out of watching people swim in their own crap.
And no, it's not "lady"...it's Ed.
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No, I've used please often in posting to you. I'm not MGDP or TSW or any of them. I'm asking DIRECT, POINTED questions and you continually ignore them.
Now, please answer the questions.
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See, it's easy to dismiss what someone says because of the way they say it. You can write those guys off as twisted or angry or vengeful or whatever else you want to call them, but you can't simply write off people who are asking questions and not personally attacking you. It seems you're only course left is just to ignore them. You obviously can't come up with a satisfactory answer.
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No one gives a shit to the answers that are offered here. Each person is standing in their own corner ready to throw punches at the other.
That's not engaging. It's like watching cocks fight or dogs or whatever. For the purpose of? Drawing blood! Because? That's what you people enjoy watching.
This forum, from which I should remove myself - by the way - because who said so? Was that Hitler also? Oh geeeezzzzz.... Talk about control? Talk about locking your mind up? Talk about imprisonment? Oh...I know...and I am the evil one....
Geezzz...I've been married longer than you all are old. And I'm supposed to be impressed by your wisdom?
Sorry...don't buy it.
(Doing more work...whilst I await another reply to "Please" post my answers)....
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No one gives a shit to the answers that are offered here. Each person is standing in their own corner ready to throw punches at the other.
I do.
That's not engaging. It's like watching cocks fight or dogs or whatever. For the purpose of? Drawing blood! Because? That's what you people enjoy watching.
I'm trying to understand what makes people like you send their kids away.
This forum, from which I should remove myself - by the way - because who said so? Was that Hitler also? Oh geeeezzzzz.... Talk about control? Talk about locking your mind up? Talk about imprisonment? Oh...I know...and I am the evil one....
No one is making you leave. They told you to, but you haven't been banned have you?
Geezzz...I've been married longer than you all are old.
I seriously doubt that.
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There are so many "broad stroke" accusations that have been said of me here that do not represent me.
It is that one-sided, unbalanced view (sure, in my opinion) and QUICK to judge bull-shit that tells me this forum is not a safe place. I mean, come on...telling me I don't deserve to breath the same oxygen? Enjoying giving someone enough rope to hang themselves? That's crap...and you know it.
Your experiences are yours. They've certainly molded you into who you are!!! And I don't have to like it...but whatever.
My experiences, are, likewise MINE! Deal with it!!!!!!!!! Grow up!!!!!
And, I don't have to defend it to YOU!
You are polarized. Narrow in your thinking. And unable to accept there may actually be other "truths" which you cannot accept.
That's just as bad as some who claim the Moral Majority is a dangerous thing! Hey...welcome to fucking democracy!!!!
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There are so many "broad stroke" accusations that have been said of me here that do not represent me.
It is that one-sided, unbalanced view (sure, in my opinion) and QUICK to judge bull-shit that tells me this forum is not a safe place. I mean, come on...telling me I don't deserve to breath the same oxygen? Enjoying giving someone enough rope to hang themselves? That's crap...and you know it.
Your experiences are yours. They've certainly molded you into who you are!!! And I don't have to like it...but whatever.
My experiences, are, likewise MINE! Deal with it!!!!!!!!! Grow up!!!!!
And, I don't have to defend it to YOU!
You are polarized. Narrow in your thinking. And unable to accept there may actually be other "truths" which you cannot accept.
That's just as bad as some who claim the Moral Majority is a dangerous thing! Hey...welcome to fucking democracy!!!!
funny how all these strugglingparents turn out to be really arrogant and i'm-better-than-you isn't it? funny also how they can never engage in debate about the facts because of a couple of hecklers. it's just an excuse: "he's mean, so i won't discuss the facts!"
for chrissake already, lady, tell us the "truths" as you see them and wel'll talk about it. what are you afraid of? nobody's gonna bite you. nobody's gonna edit or ban you. just lay it out there and let's talk it over. and, btw, you are going to get heckled;ignore it and state the facts as you see them.
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No you don't have to do anything. But you look kinda silly when you come to this board to post and then refuse to engage in any discussion....with ANYone, rational and civil or not. Do you expect no one to respond to you? Do you expect us to not ask you any questions about what you post?
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What would you do if you were me? I believe it is my responsibility to do the best I can (albeit sometimes it is inadequate) to help my children become socialized contributors to this thing we call "our society." What should we do with "troubled teens?"
We should love them, do what we can to keep them safe, and try to find out what makes them so "troubled" and then see if we can persuade them to explore that and work on improving things.
Not everyone here is mean & nasty and out to attack you. Not everyone believes that the answers are as simple as "be a better parent." There are some truths and thought-provoking discussions to be found on Fornits.
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All that nonsense doesnt address a few things constantly brought up but never confronted.
e.g.
- The fact that at heart almost all programs boil down to 'do what we say or we will hurt you' and a big dose of 'suffering = good for them!
- The fact that suffering and obedience training isnt therapeutic or good for anything at all
- The fact that no program has ever demonstrated its effectiveness in... anything, or a lowering of recidivism, or... anything except a satisfaction survey for parents of graduates from a pool size numbering in the 60s :roll:
- The rather NOTORIOUS abuse and shadyness of every 'BM' or "RTC" program out there, and how they exist completely seperate from actual therapy, actual schools, etc
- The ICPC (sp?) compact not being followed
- Holding them incommunicado from their own family, legal representation, advocates, a judge, and thus preventing them from contacting the authorities or exercising thier right of habeas corpus
- And, finally, the utter ridiculousness of sending your kid off at the wee hours of the morning by two burly men in escorts to be forced into obedience or be hurt, given bullshit 'emotional growth' that was debunked decades ago, teaching themself out of a book, made to suffer and told its good for them, and having to EARN the right to talk to their parents and being disallowed to seek the authorities when prisoners and people in mental institutions have that right as a matter of fact!
Oh and lest I forget THIRTY FUCKING YEARS AND NOT ONE PROGRAM CAN PROVE THEY EVEN DO ANYTHING AT ALL.
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That's just as bad as some who claim the Moral Majority is a dangerous thing!
Whoa! Back the fucking truck up. The Moral Majority IS a bad thing and as Cassandra is fond of saying, they're neither moral nor the majority.
Wow. That statement explains soooooooo much!!!
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Wow...that was a pretty weak come-back....
Hey...tell you what...I gotta go do some productive work so I can pay the be part of that majority who pays your fucking taxes so you can have roads to drive on, and schools for kids to go to, etc....
Geeez... Go flip some more burgers...please. I'll need a quick lunch tomorrow...
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Wow...that was a pretty weak come-back....
Hey...tell you what...I gotta go do some productive work so I can pay the be part of that majority who pays your fucking taxes so you can have roads to drive on, and schools for kids to go to, etc....
Geeez... Go flip some more burgers...please. I'll need a quick lunch tomorrow...
All that nonsense doesnt address a few things constantly brought up but never confronted.
e.g.
- The fact that at heart almost all programs boil down to 'do what we say or we will hurt you' and a big dose of 'suffering = good for them!
- The fact that suffering and obedience training isnt therapeutic or good for anything at all
- The fact that no program has ever demonstrated its effectiveness in... anything, or a lowering of recidivism, or... anything except a satisfaction survey for parents of graduates from a pool size numbering in the 60s :roll:
- The rather NOTORIOUS abuse and shadyness of every 'BM' or "RTC" program out there, and how they exist completely seperate from actual therapy, actual schools, etc
- The ICPC (sp?) compact not being followed
- Holding them incommunicado from their own family, legal representation, advocates, a judge, and thus preventing them from contacting the authorities or exercising thier right of habeas corpus
- And, finally, the utter ridiculousness of sending your kid off at the wee hours of the morning by two burly men in escorts to be forced into obedience or be hurt, given bullshit 'emotional growth' that was debunked decades ago, teaching themself out of a book, made to suffer and told its good for them, and having to EARN the right to talk to their parents and being disallowed to seek the authorities when prisoners and people in mental institutions have that right as a matter of fact!
Oh and lest I forget THIRTY FUCKING YEARS AND NOT ONE PROGRAM CAN PROVE THEY EVEN DO ANYTHING AT ALL.
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This person is a troll, or worse, a self serving fuck.
Either way we're wasting our time. Besides, some hyper intelligent educated capitalist could surely see why a 'niche' market such as the program 'industry' is hardly even known of and so rarely used... I mean 90% of the troubled kids in the USA never go through the doors of a RTC!
LOL MARKET ECONOMICS WHAT?
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Do you really have that much of a problem ignoring the personal attacks? Why do you seem incapable of speaking and dealing with the people who are NOT attacking you but simply asking questions. Why must you become so condescending? I don't flip burgers. I work from home. I don't need to, my husband makes quite a comfortable living, but I enjoy it.
Thanks for showing what a typical program parent is like. You can't answer the questions so your resort to the ad hominems or you just ignore them. If you'd just ignore the attacks and stick to your facts (if you have any) we might actually get somewhere. Go back and read this thread from start to finish. You're making a fool out of yourself.
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He's fucking schizophrenic, he is. He's claiming to be a parent and a counselor. I recognize the same limited phrases popping up. Boring the hell out of me now.
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Yeah, me too. But I'm tellin' ya. This is the kind of shit that makes a difference. There are lurkers all around. Imagine what they think of these people when they just sit back and read the whole thread. It really ends up exposing these people for what they are. They could never have a conversation like these with anyone from the program. They couldn't ask the questions we've been asking or they'd be branded as dissenters so they never get a chance to see it played out. When I've posted like this under a username I've ended up with about 6 or 7 parents emailing me telling me how much that conversation did to help them see what's really going on. I'm not looking for that here, as I said, it's exhausting and I don't have the energy for it right now. When the parents finally understand how they've been duped and the damage that's being done they kinda freak out.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my own brand of trolling them and slamming them, but I really get a kick out of this. I've read the hate mail that Agent Orange gets from his site http://www.orange-papers.org/ (http://www.orange-papers.org/). Here's his mail http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters.html) He's fucking brilliant. The guy never resorts to getting personal, doesn't get angry at all...he just posts facts and the idiots end up hanging themselves. It's pretty funny.
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funny how all these strugglingparents turn out to be really arrogant and i'm-better-than-you isn't it? funny also how they can never engage in debate about the facts because of a couple of hecklers. it's just an excuse: "he's mean, so i won't discuss the facts!"
for chrissake already, lady, tell us the "truths" as you see them and wel'll talk about it. what are you afraid of? nobody's gonna bite you. nobody's gonna edit or ban you. just lay it out there and let's talk it over. and, btw, you are going to get heckled;ignore it and state the facts as you see them.
BINGO!!
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Alright, can anyone else answer some of these questions?
I hesitate to disclose too many personal details.
I didn't really ask you for any personal details. Certainly nothing that could identify you or your daughter. I'm mainly asking about the qualifications of the people she's with and how their treatment works. I haven't attacked you in any way. I'm honestly trying to understand the kind of thinking that goes into making a decision like this. I just don't get it.
Our counselors and medical professionals prior to Three Springs was an extensive team involved in treatment. To be sure, they were well qualified and we were highly involved and sought multiple opinions. Likewise we sought their counsel about Three Springs.
So then what are the qualifications of the counselors at Three Springs?
How do I know if she's made progress? Observation. Behavior changes are evident and obvious.
How can you observe her? Sure you can go for a scheduled visit but what is that going to tell you?
By her own testimony, she is thankful to have had this opportunity and considers it to have saved her life. She's not "happy" to be there - she is thankful and believes it was absolutely necessary. No, she is not brainwashed. She has emerged from her cocoon and is alive again. She has spoken at a high school to parents about her journey and what she put her family through. She doesn't want other teens to go through that.
Yep, been there done that. Part of her may even believe that, I did after having it drilled and consequenced into my head for a couple of years but once I got back out into civilization I was lost. It wasn't until years after that I realized the extent of the damage and what I had lost.
This is a residential treatment facility / school. It is not a summer camp. No, we do not call whenever we feel like it.
Can you though if you chose to do so? Could you visit unexpectedly and speak with your child privately if you requested?
Although, as I said, conferences can be called. Children do make home visits, in later stages every month for 5, 6, 7, or 8 days - as more days are earned. They are able to fly by themselves. Parents visit the facility every month.
You're basing your 'observations' on once a month and a few monitored phone calls??
Obviously, there are times when private communication occurs without someone listening in.
Really? When would that be? Do you have to sneak to do that?
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Aww, where'd they go? Oh well. If ya can't stand the heat......
:rofl:
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Geezzz...I've been married longer than you all are old.
Congratulations on your 45th anniversary.
:roll:
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Geezzz...I've been married longer than you all are old.
Congratulations on your 45th anniversary.
:roll:
Youngsters love to brag. Ahh the good ol' days when I was only 45...
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What exactly am I supposed to be bragging about?
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Nothing. I just got a laugh out of the guy who things everyone here is a bunch of young adults or recent program victims, when the fact is there are older parents who frequent this site too.
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or people like DJ and TSW who are neither parents or program victims but just all-knowing assholes who worked at a program many moons ago, got canned and are living the rest of their lives seeking revenge.
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Nothing. I just got a laugh out of the guy who things everyone here is a bunch of young adults or recent program victims, when the fact is there are older parents who frequent this site too.
Ah, totally misread that. :)
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or people like DJ and TSW who are neither parents or program victims but just all-knowing assholes who worked at a program many moons ago, got canned and are living the rest of their lives seeking revenge.
Maybe, but as you can see there are others here too. It's real easy to just dismiss what everyone says because those few get under your skin. Again, ignore them and engage in conversation with the rest of us. I went through a program and I'm a parent of 2 grown kids. Let's talk.
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some of us post because we are opposed to the philosophical idea of tough love and feel that imprisonment without trial is a human rights abuse. We lucky enough not to have worked within this cynical and cheap industry or to have been placed there as children.
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Wow...that was a pretty weak come-back....
Hey...tell you what...I gotta go do some productive work so I can pay the be part of that majority who pays your fucking taxes so you can have roads to drive on, and schools for kids to go to, etc....
Geeez... Go flip some more burgers...please. I'll need a quick lunch tomorrow...
No wonder your kid hates you...instead of respectfully and honestly answering legitimate questions you evade the real issues and use sarcasm and put-downs. Things get to this stage then parents abandon their kids to these abusive places so the parents don't have to deal with the shit they have created. :roll: :roll:
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So then what are the qualifications of the counselors at Three Springs?
Family Service Worker is a Bachelor level in the social science field or higher.
Counselor that is with child's group 24 hours a day is a bachelor level is social science field.
Administrator is Bachelor level at girls program.
Director of Special Services which does sexual/physical abuse groups, grief groups, adoption, and substance abuse has a bachelor of science degree.
Quote:
This is a residential treatment facility / school. It is not a summer camp. No, we do not call whenever we feel like it.
Can you though if you chose to do so? Could you visit unexpectedly and speak with your child privately if you requested?
Yes, you could but you would be disrupting to the program. By law they would have to allow this communication but if it happened to frequently they could discharge the child for disrupting the program.
Quote:
Although, as I said, conferences can be called. Children do make home visits, in later stages every month for 5, 6, 7, or 8 days - as more days are earned. They are able to fly by themselves. Parents visit the facility every month.
Truth: Parents get a weekly update from their family service worker and other than that they can email with questions and they will get back with them when they can. Conferences are usely scheduled monthly and are done either on campus or over the phone. If they have a conference other than that there is usually a problem.
You're basing your 'observations' on once a month and a few monitored phone calls??
Quote:
Obviously, there are times when private communication occurs without someone listening in.
Truth: The childrens phone calls are monitored! They start out as 5 minute calls and if the child manipulates the call they can imediately end the call. They earn more time on the phone as they progress through the stage system but can only call parents.
As for the home visits the first visit is a visit on campus for the day the second visit is a visit close by for the day the third is a overnight visit close by and after that they can start earning home visits if they are all sucessful. The key is that they must earn them they are not automatic. The once a month visit is parent support which is a parent training day every 3rd Saturday of the month usually from 10 - 5.
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Then can we smush? ::kiss::
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That is a GI offense sugar tits!
Is that GI as in gastroinstestinal? :P
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Yes, you could but you would be disrupting to the program. By law they would have to allow this communication but if it happened to frequently they could discharge the child for disrupting the program.
How would that be disruptive to the program and do they mean to your child's program or the program in general?
Truth: The childrens phone calls are monitored! They start out as 5 minute calls and if the child manipulates the call they can imediately end the call. They earn more time on the phone as they progress through the stage system but can only call parents.
What would be considered being manipulative? If they have complaints about how they're being treated are they allowed to discuss those with you? Either privately or during these monitored phone calls? If something was going on that they were uncomfortable with or upset about don't you think it would be difficult for them to be able to communicate that with you if someone is listening in on the conversation?
As for the home visits the first visit is a visit on campus for the day the second visit is a visit close by for the day the third is a overnight visit close by and after that they can start earning home visits if they are all sucessful. The key is that they must earn them they are not automatic. The once a month visit is parent support which is a parent training day every 3rd Saturday of the month usually from 10 - 5.
Is your child allowed on these visits unaccompanied?
What is involved in the parent training days?
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Group ignore? What's that?
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Why is this all sounding so uncomfortably familiar? :o
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How would that be disruptive to the program and do they mean to your child's program or the program in general?
It would be disruptive to the Program itself because that is not the way it is designed to work. If they allow it to happen for one they would have others that would want the same thing thus disrupting the way the program runs.
What would be considered being manipulative?
A child hollering at their parents or cussing at them basically being mean and negative but more than normal.
If they have complaints about how they're being treated are they allowed to discuss those with you? Either privately or during these monitored phone calls? If something was going on that they were uncomfortable with or upset about don't you think it would be difficult for them to be able to communicate that with you if someone is listening in on the conversation? They can tell them in the phone call or they can write it in a letter or discuss it on a visit with their parents. The phone calls that they make to the parents are made as a group with all the phones in a hallway and a counselor is in the hallway with them but not directly listening to the 3 or 4 on the calls at the same time. They also can file a grievance with the program and the parents are supposed to be notified if this is done.
Is your child allowed on these visits unaccompanied?
No the children are either picked up on campus by their parents or taken to the airport for their travel.
What is involved in the parent training days?
They train on various topics that come up and it is usually done by different members of the staff. They also have lunch with their childrens group and the other parents. They usually will have a conference with the family worker this day. On some occassions they may get to meet with the psychiatrist.
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How would that be disruptive to the program and do they mean to your child's program or the program in general?
It would be disruptive to the Program itself because that is not the way it is designed to work. If they allow it to happen for one they would have others that would want the same thing thus disrupting the way the program runs.
How is the program designed to work?
What would be considered being manipulative?
A child hollering at their parents or cussing at them basically being mean and negative but more than normal.
If they have complaints about how they're being treated are they allowed to discuss those with you? Either privately or during these monitored phone calls? If something was going on that they were uncomfortable with or upset about don't you think it would be difficult for them to be able to communicate that with you if someone is listening in on the conversation? They can tell them in the phone call or they can write it in a letter or discuss it on a visit with their parents. The phone calls that they make to the parents are made as a group with all the phones in a hallway and a counselor is in the hallway with them but not directly listening to the 3 or 4 on the calls at the same time. They also can file a grievance with the program and the parents are supposed to be notified if this is done.
Are you warned when your child goes in that they'll try to manipulate you into removing them? Any time I had a complaint in the program I was in I was confronted and told I was being manipulative. The whole group that I was in would pretty much just shame or guilt me into retracting what I had said. My parents were also warned about that. They ended up not believing anything I said because of that.
What is involved in the parent training days?
They train on various topics that come up and it is usually done by different members of the staff. They also have lunch with their childrens group and the other parents. They usually will have a conference with the family worker this day. On some occassions they may get to meet with the psychiatrist.
How often do the parents meet with a psychiatrist? How often does the child adn how involved is the Dr. in the treatment plan and implementation of it?
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I know.. I read a book about it once.. I think it was called "1985"??? Not sure though, might have been a three stooges movie also.
Yep, that and it's kinda giving me flashbacks of the place I was in. None of these places seem much different from one another from what I can see. They use fear, isolation, manipulation adn thought reform to mold these kids into the good little Stepford children they think they should be.
Same shit, different wrapper.
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Yes you are warned going in that your child will try and manipulate the program.
The psychiatrist sees the children who are on medication or need to be on medication. She only sees them for the monitoring of the meds as needed by the meds they are on. The parents really do not talk directly with her. The communication is done through the family service worker or nurse. The children will see the psychologist initially when they come in to the program and then they see her once a month after that.
The first question would take way to long to answer.
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Seems the program is more worried about keeping them in the program and giving the parents a dog and pony show than any amount of actual therapy or doing what is in the childs interest or what the child wishes done.
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Ok being out of the loop for the day forces me to quote some stuff that was way back in the thread, however I will post my take on it. Do with it what you will.
The program at Three Springs was designed to prevent "manipulation". It promoted group contact and enforced consequences that were not desireable. Not only were the consequences undesireable, but the alternatives was equally as distasteful. Some kids acted out just to get on consequence because it gave them privacy of sorts. They didn't have to deal with the group. If they acted out long enough they might even get discharged to a RYDC - Regional Youth Detention Center. Most of the kids I spoke to in the program in my area (Georgia) were begging their Probation Officer (PO) or their DFCS - Department of Family Children Services - Caseworkers to "Please take me anywhere but here". One girl's convo with her PO had her showing him her blisters on her hands that she had recieved while working and doing yard work around the facility. When the kids were not in school, they did yardwork outside. Mowing the lawn, weeding the walkway, gathering wood, and other such "housekeeping" procedures.
Not to mention there were ALLIGATORS around the facility that were known to live in the ponds on campus and come up on the grounds while the kids would be on site. How safe is that? I didn't think so!
Expounding on the interventions TSW had set up descriptions for earlier in this thread are my own views on what we did.
GI or Group Ignore: The resident has proven so troublesome he or she is placed on group ignore. The resident is required to cook their own meals, stay at least 10 feet away from the group at all times, and carry their personal effects in a backpack. The resident showers after the group, and does everything after the group does without any of the rewards for timely behavior. The group is prohibited from speaking to the resident, and likewise the resident is prohibited from speaking with the group and counselor.
Primitive: A resident who has acted so innappropriately that it is felt they no longer deserve any of the benifits of group or campus are put on primitive. The resident sleeps in a tent off the campus under the supervision of a counselor. The counselor on converses with the resident on items of importance. The resident is required to complete work projects, follow all instructions, shower daily, and cook their own meals. The resident must show a certain number of days of consistency in order to transition off primitive.
This intervention was used quite extensively at my facility. It was combined with the Campsite intervention (or as TSW put it "primitive") While they wouldnt sleep in a tent, they had to cook their own meals outside. I had some wonderful french toast with the kids that were on my campsite intervention. More on that later.
If an entire group showed complete troublesome behavior or disrespect for the facility, the entire group could be placed on "Campsite" which ineffect, since all things were opened with keys from the outside, their building would be locked and they would only be allowed in at night to sleep and shower. Portapotties were on campus across a field and about a quarter mile walk from wherever the group would be "Campsited" and were frequently used as toileting areas. The kids were made to stay outside from 6 in the morning until approximately 9 at night when they would come inside for showers and sleep. During this time, they were made to cook their meals over an open fire and stay outside in either extreme cold or sometimes blistering heat of approximate 105 during the day, with little or no shade.
Trek: The group as a whole had demonstrated inappropriate behaviors. The group is removed from their campsite and given back packs. They are made to walk 6 to 10 miles a day carrying their own equipment. They cook their own means and are required to walk in silence. They must have a certain number of consistent days in order to return to use of their cabin and campus. During this time they are not allowed the privelage of attending school or eating in the dining hall.
I had only heard of trekking used once in an intervention for an individual resident who had poor behavior. They made this resident carry approximately 40 lbs of rocks in her backpack and walk around the entire facility repeatedly while staff followed her in a golf cart. Because each group we had made their own meals in their own cabins, the individual could be excluded from the cabin mealtimes. I'm sure the trek distance was approximately 10 miles or so around the entire campus. If one were to walk the entire campus up and down for the entire day it could entirely reach 10 miles. This person was also put on primitive at the same time as she was put on trekking.
Stage Suspension: The resident has of course acted contrary to the norms of the program in such a mannner they loose their currently attained stage. The resident's current stage is suspended and the resident is required to re-earn that stage and privelages with the exception of privelages involving home visits.
In our cases, we could even suspend homevisits and refuse a child their home visits.
Run Risk: A student has either attempted to or expressed the desire to run away. They are immediately placed on run risk. This includes loosing their shoe laces and belt. They are not allowed access to their personal area, and must have their clothes for shower time carried by another resident. They are only allowed to speak with certain members of the group, and the counselor. They are required to be kept on link, a length of rope, with the counselor at all times. They undergo a body search at least 1 time a day, and must take their showers under the supervision of a counselor.
Run Risk was also followed at my facility. They were stripped to all but shorts and a teeshirt and their personal underwear. They werent allowed shoes and had to wear flipflops. They had to stay within 5 feet of a counselor at all times, and they were sometimes put on "contact buddy" where a counselor had to be touching them/holding on to them at all times. They were made to wear orange reflector vests so that neighboring groups and counselors could identify them as run risk. In extreme cases they were stripped of all rights to wear clothing but their undergarments and were made to wear an orange jumpsuit. They MAY be allowed a teeshirt for under the main part of the jumpsuit.
I wish we could have used a rope to hold them.
TSW -- you missed one!! SUICIDE RISK-- I think you confused suicide with run...
Suicide Risk: A resident would indicate or attempt suicide. This could be done in a myriad of ways. From verbally expressing it to actually making advances to doing it, the suicide risk would be placed as an intervention. Suicide risk were also not allowed laces or belts. They were either allowed to wear their shoes with no laces or had to wear flipflops. Suicide risks were not allowed near their personal areas/lockers, and had to have all their personal effects taken and carried by a counselor. The counselor had to search them for anything they might be hiding. They had to be monitored during the showers by having part of the shower curtain down so the counselor could see the head and neck of the resident. The counselor had to hand the resident shampoo and other such effects during their 5 minutes timed shower. If the resident had to use the bathroom, the resident had to be stripsearched each time they went to the bathroom. They werent allowed to lock the door to the stall and they had to have a hand in plain view of the counselor and had to count or sing or make noise to let the counselor know they were still alive.
Moving on! Everybody with me? Next stop!!
Parents get a weekly update from their family service worker and other than that they can email with questions and they will get back with them when they can. Conferences are usely scheduled monthly and are done either on campus or over the phone. If they have a conference other than that there is usually a problem.
That never happened at my facility. Also phonecalls between residents and family were monitored.
What would be considered being manipulative? If they have complaints about how they're being treated are they allowed to discuss those with [the parent]? What is involved in the parent training days?
Manipulative behavior can be anything from "begging" to come home, to telling the parent or person on the phone they are being mistreated in some way. IF they have complaints, at my facility they were allowed to file a private "Grievance" which the nurse or assistant nurse would view and decide if its something that should be taken care of by administration or not.
Parent training days was a sarcastic remark used to describe the monotonous activities we used to do when parents would visit. It would give the illusion that the place is beneficial to kids actually being there. The kids were never allowed any alone time with their families and counselors were encouraged to eavesdrop and alert admin or a supervisor if a child was trying to be "manipulative".
ALL ABOARD<<< NEXT STOP>>> COUNSELING AND THERAPY
The bulk of the so called therapy is run by bachelor's degree holding counselors. The facility psychologist met with the kids maybe 1 time a month for 20 to 30 minutes. This was most of the time to assess the need to increase or decrease medications. Bachelors degrees in any field, and most often very little to no experience working with children. The unit directors and program administrators are recruited from within the ranks of the program staff and work their way up the chain of command from Counselor 1 to Counselor 4(supervisor) and then to Unit Director and up to Program Administrator.
Yes, the same was at my facility. I, too, am not a licenced psychologist. One of the main guys who headed up the big facilities was a guy who was retired from the military. He had a semper fi bumpersticker. I am pretty sure he wasnt licenced.
So that is my take on alot of things, all in all a big bunch of bullshit.
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This paper presents the results from the first phase of a longitudinal, multi-center study of outcomes in private residential treatment. It is the first known large-scale attempt at a systematic exploration of client characteristics, treatment outcomes, and discharge predictors in private residential treatment. The sample of nearly 1000 adolescents, from nine private residential programs, was about equally likely to be male or female, from middle or upper socioeconomic backgrounds and predominately white. Ninety-five percent had prior treatment and 85% were treated for multiple presenting problems, the most common of which were disruptive behavior, mood, and substance abuse problems. Parents and adolescents reported significant improvement during treatment on adolescent communication, family relationships, and compliance. Analyses of variance indicated that both adolescents and parents reported a significant reduction in problems from admission to discharge, on each aggregate measure psycho-social functioning (Total Problems Scores, Internalizing Scales, and Externalizing Scales of the Child Behavior CheckList, CBCL, and Youth Self-Report, YSR) and nearly every syndrome (15 of 16 YSR and CBCL Syndrome scales). Only two out of 22 treatment and non-treatment-related variables (Grade Point Average and Mood Disorder) interacted with outcomes. Furthermore, in stepwise regression analyses, testing a wide array of treatment and non-treatment variables, only a handful of variables predicted discharge functioning. Taken together, the analyses suggested that adolescent problems improve significantly during private residential treatment and that, with only a few exceptions, discharge functioning and in-treatment change are relatively similar, regardless of adolescent background, history, problems, and treatment factors. Implications and research recommendations are presented.
http://http://natsap.org/Behrens.doc
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esarks, you didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday, did you? That so-called "study" is a paid advertisement for NATSAP programs. It's about as scientific as a used car dealer's "study" that says he has the best deals in town. I hope you are also aware that NATSAP is just a trade organization -- anyone can join simply by paying the membership dues.
-- A concerned parent
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esarks, you didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday, did you? That so-called "study" is a paid advertisement for NATSAP programs. It's about as scientific as a used car dealer's "study" that says he has the best deals in town. I hope you are also aware that NATSAP is just a trade organization -- anyone can join simply by paying the membership dues.
-- A concerned parent
I would have referenced your study...but...oh...um...right...you don't have one.
Well...their's is published and this being the free country that it is...is open to scrutiny.
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or people like DJ and TSW who are neither parents or program victims but just all-knowing assholes who worked at a program many moons ago, got canned and are living the rest of their lives seeking revenge.
I think you've made some factual errors here. Let me help to straighten you out on the truth (I know the truth is a tough concept for you, but I'll go slow).
- "or people like DJ and TSW who are neither parents or program victims"
As a young man I was forced into a situation far more abusive, both physically and mentally, than what would later come to be known as "programs."
- "got canned "
Actually "resigned in protest of negligence, neglect and abuse at the hands of uneducated hacks and quacks" is the truth. I suppose that the un- and under-educated, unlicensed, uncertified counselors with phony degrees from diploma mills are just dandy in your view;this is why you patronize programs. You're willing to pay top dollar for bottom-of-the-barrel "treatment" provided by folks not qualified to walk my dog. Whatever it takes to avoid doing the hard work necessary to raise a child in your home, right?
-"but just all-knowing assholes who worked at a program many moons ago"
I worked at two "programs," one of which is the largest and oldest in the country and one that was the "flagship" model for all current NATSAP programs and have continued working with victims of those and similar programs until the present. By "all-knowing" I suppose you're alluding to the fact that I hold a master's degree in social work and am a licensed therapist.
- "and are living the rest of their lives seeking revenge."
Actually, living a quite normal and successful life with a wonderful wife and family and continuing to this day advocating for abused children and lobbying for reform of a very twisted, crooked and hurtful industry - and working hard through all legal means and avenues to shutter abusive facilities - facilities that continue to exist and make money from marks like you who wouldn't know appropriate care from a hole in the wall.
I hope that clears up your awful misconceptions and sets the record straight on your prevarications about me.
Good luck!
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This paper presents the results from the first phase of a longitudinal, multi-center study of outcomes in private residential treatment. It is the first known large-scale attempt at a systematic exploration of client characteristics, treatment outcomes, and discharge predictors in private residential treatment. The sample of nearly 1000 adolescents, from nine private residential programs, was about equally likely to be male or female, from middle or upper socioeconomic backgrounds and predominately white. Ninety-five percent had prior treatment and 85% were treated for multiple presenting problems, the most common of which were disruptive behavior, mood, and substance abuse problems. Parents and adolescents reported significant improvement during treatment on adolescent communication, family relationships, and compliance. Analyses of variance indicated that both adolescents and parents reported a significant reduction in problems from admission to discharge, on each aggregate measure psycho-social functioning (Total Problems Scores, Internalizing Scales, and Externalizing Scales of the Child Behavior CheckList, CBCL, and Youth Self-Report, YSR) and nearly every syndrome (15 of 16 YSR and CBCL Syndrome scales). Only two out of 22 treatment and non-treatment-related variables (Grade Point Average and Mood Disorder) interacted with outcomes. Furthermore, in stepwise regression analyses, testing a wide array of treatment and non-treatment variables, only a handful of variables predicted discharge functioning. Taken together, the analyses suggested that adolescent problems improve significantly during private residential treatment and that, with only a few exceptions, discharge functioning and in-treatment change are relatively similar, regardless of adolescent background, history, problems, and treatment factors. Implications and research recommendations are presented.
http://http://natsap.org/Behrens.doc
So, then, let's begin with the scrutiny, shall we?
Here are the facts about the "study" you quoted and the research of the APA which believes PARENT TRAINING is the effective way to work with "troubled teens":
Thanks to Deb for doing the legwork...
The study implies that NATSAP programs are "licensed". How many are licensed? Their flagship program, HLA, isn?t and hasn't been since its inception.
This was not an Independent study. One must consider the author?s connections with the industry.
C Smoot employed by AEG and serveral other RTCs.
Smoot and Behrens co-create Evidence Based Consulting.
Behrens Clinical Director for AEG's Youth Care program, Member NATSAP.
Smoots 'partner' with AEGs Youth Care program.
Smoots are 'associates' of Open Sky Wilderness, Member NATSAP.
Behrens creates Canyon Research and Consulting- most of their clients are AEG programs.
Smoot and Behrens pitch EBC to NATSAP.
Dr. Kevin Fenstermacher employed by both EBC and CRC.
Looks more like a concerted effort to shore up the industry?s reputation, and give parents a false sense of security.
Who is Ellen Behrens, lead researcher at Canyon Research & Consulting, Salt Lake City, Utah?
Sept 2005- AEG?s Youth Care in Draper, Utah ?partners? with Evidence Based Consulting (EBC), a group of psychologists. (Only 2 listed- Tracine and Carl Smoot)- committed to fulfilling the National Institute of Mental Health's agenda for the application of evidence-based research in testing, assessment and treatment.
This is how the innovative partnership works: EBC provides testing services for Youth Care students by using up-to-date psychological tests, interpretive strategies, and treatment recommendations that are suggested in the research literature. In collaboration with Youth Care therapists, a strategic treatment plan is developed, utilizing research-based practices and measurements. The additional perspective of EBC psychologists provides the best possible assessments and treatment for Youth Care students.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5186.shtml (http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/article_5186.shtml)
More on Evidence Based Consulting
http://www.evidencebasedconsulting.com/ (http://www.evidencebasedconsulting.com/)
Behrens, Clinical Dir of Youth Care
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=218094#218094 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=218094#218094)
Smoot?s are ?Associates? of Open Sky Wilderness
Prior to completing his graduate work, Carl was employed in hospital management. He successfully ran two inpatient psychiatry programs and was later a therapist at (AEGs) Youth Care, Inc.
http://www.openskywilderness.com/assoc.htm (http://www.openskywilderness.com/assoc.htm)
Oct 2005- AEG hosts workshop in Utah. One of the guest speakers:
Ellen Behrens, PhD discussed out of home treatment outcome research. She is the co-founder of Evidence Based Consulting. Behrens was the principal investigator for a large, multi-center study on student outcomes in residential treatment.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5204.shtml (http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/article_5204.shtml)
June ?05 Ellen Behrens and Tracine Smoot pitch ?Evidence-based Practice? to NATSAP members.
http://www.natsap.org/Newsletters/NATSA ... letter.pdf (http://www.natsap.org/Newsletters/NATSAP%20Summer%20Newsletter.pdf)
Dr. Kevin Fenstermacher works for both ?Evidence Based Consulting? (Smoots) and ?Canyon Research and Consulting? (Behrens).
http://canyonrc.com/experience.html (http://canyonrc.com/experience.html)
http://psychologicalsolutions.info/exec ... 0team.html (http://psychologicalsolutions.info/executive%20team.html)
Who are CRCs clients? And, who funded this study?
http://canyonrc.com/experience.html (http://canyonrc.com/experience.html)
A whole slew of AEG programs.
Under Links at CRCs website one is taken to the APAs Empirically Supported Treatments page. http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_est/index.html (http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_est/index.html)
Their recommendations, under Oppositional Disorders:
Because the immediate goal of treatment is to develop parenting skills, the therapist begins by having parents apply new skills to relatively simple problems (e.g., compliance, completion of chores, oppositional behavior). As parents become proficient using the initial techniques, the child's most serious problem behaviors at home and in school are addressed (e.g., fighting, poor school performance, truancy, stealing, firesetting). In most PMT (PARENT Management Training) programs, the therapist maintains close telephone contact with the parents in-between sessions. These contacts are used to encourage parents to ask questions about the home programs, to provide an opportunity for the therapist to prompt compliance with the behavior-change programs and reinforce parents' use of the skills, to strengthen the therapeutic alliance, and to allow the therapist to problem-solve when programs are not modifying child behavior effectively.
II. Summary of Studies Supporting Treatment Efficacy
PMT is one of the most extensively studied therapies for children and has been shown to be effective in decreasing oppositional, aggressive, and antisocial behavior (for reviews of research, see Dumas, 1989; Forehand & Long, 1988; Kazdin, 1985; Miller & Prinz, 1990; Moreland, Schwebel, Beck, & Wells, 1982). Randomized controlled trials have found that PMT is more effective in changing antisocial behavior and promoting prosocial behavior than many other treatments (e.g. relationship, play therapy, family therapies, varied community services) and control conditions (e.g. waiting-list, "attention-placebo"). Follow-up data have shown that gains are maintained from posttreatment to 1 and 3 years after treatment has ended. One research team found that noncompliant children treated by parent training were functioning as well as nonclinic individuals approximately 14 years later (Long, Forehand, Wierson, & Morgan, 1994). The benefits of PMT often generalize to areas that are not focused on directly during therapy. For example, improvements in parental adjustment and functioning, marital satisfaction, and sibling behavior have been found following therapy. Overall, perhaps no other technique has been as carefully documented and empirically supported as PMT in treating conduct problems.
A unique feature of PMT is the abundance of research on child, parent, and family factors that moderate treatment effects. Moreover, PMT, either alone or in combination with other techniques, has been applied with promising effects to other populations including autistic children, mentally retarded children and adolescents, adjudicated delinquents, and parents who physically abuse their children. The principles and procedures on which PMT relies have also been applied in many settings including schools, institutions, community homes, day-care facilities, and facilities for the elderly.
http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_ ... child.html (http://www.apa.org/divisions/div12/rev_est/pmt_child.html)
One must also consider the report presented August 12 at the American Psychological Association Convention by Allison Pinto PhD.
http://apinto.blog.usf.edu/2006/08/21/e ... -treatment (http://apinto.blog.usf.edu/2006/08/21/exploitation-of-youth-families-perspectives-on-unregulated-residential-treatment)
Now, please tell me how the "study" you cited is anything more than a shill-piece for NATSAP. I'd be delighted to hear your answer.
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DJ... some good reading there. Will take me a while to go through all of that.
It is a fact that NATSAP presented their study to the APA. It's not like they are secretly trying to hide something. Sure they have a financial interest. Does that discount the findings completely and totally? I don't think so. But I would like the APA to take a position on it and debunk it if it's a piece of crap. That's the appropriate way to discredit it, rather than taking pot shots on a forum like this.
When a pharmaceutical company presents clinical studies to the FDA, they likewise have a financial interest. It seems to me sometimes this is the way the world works.
Even the APA states there is a place for the residential program in the continuum of care. Unless I'm missing it, I can't see where they have boldly taken a stand against programs represented by NATSAP.
I do not see a prepondence of evidence that suggests what appears to be a one-sided argument by some here that ALL residential programs are "fucking kids up" in all cases and that NOTHING good has come from them in thirty years. Nor do I see evidence which would suggest kids coming out of these programs are overwhelmingly and undeniably damaged by them.
I'm not opposed to treatment alternatives. We sought many. We were engaged in therapy and still are. I believe we did and are following the ideals of what I see in PMT. For us, I believe the residential program is working and producing positive results.
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When a pharmaceutical company presents clinical studies to the FDA, they likewise have a financial interest. It seems to me sometimes this is the way the world works.
And, of course, if you follow such matters, you will have seen that over the years, including more recently Vioxx, that the drug companies routinely falsify their research and the FDA rubberstamps it anyway. This is analagous to the NATSAP "study" which, by the way, is not a clinical trial of any kind, but rather a collection of surveys sent to program graduates only that were hand-picked by the facilities represented. Based on this evidence, I am able to completely discount their findings.
There are plenty of studies by NIH, NIMH, the Surgeon General, et al that DO conclude that BM is, in fact, completely ineffective and that the product of aggregating distressed teens and juvenile delinquents EXACERBATES their problems. Read the research for yourself. The results are crystal clear.
On the other hand, after 30 years of so-called "treatment successes" this industry has yet to publish (or even conduct) a SINGLE CLINICAL TRIAL. This is for a reason. Results from long-established research is contrindicative of what the industry would like to conclude. The facts simply do not bear out their claims. So, instead of actually DOING the clinical trials, they print glossy brochures touting a 98% success rate and a "warranty" on your kid, while offering absolutle zero evidence to support their notions.
If the absurdity of these claims doesn't hit you dead in the face, your brain has ceased to function and none of this debate matters much anyway...
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Of course this isn't a perfect world and of course pharmaceutical companies will misrepresent sometimes. That's the point.
This world has more shades to it than black and white. And if you want to polarize everything so there are no shades of gray - fine for you.
But don't write off other people's judgements as being obviously attributed to their being brain dead. No, I don't believe (and I obviously don't stand alone) the evidence is so overwhelming. It just isn't there. The APA certainly hasn't come out with a statement opposing ALL residential programs.
By the way... just curious. Do you think Albert Ellis and REBT is ineffective?
Yes, I think there is room to debate the issue both ways. I think there are some pros and cons. And in five years, I'm certain my opinion will be swayed one way or the other based on my experience - rather than a clinical study or anecdotal data. The case study that will mean the most to me is mine.
DJ's post actually caused me to do more reading than any other post.
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For us, I believe this program is working and producing positive results.
Which program?
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Residential
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"Residential" is a bit hard to search for. Could you please be more specific?
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It's the thing we are "debating" about. The whole NATSAP study and whether these programs are effective or not.
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Actually, your original post suggested, and the edited one still implies, that you are talking about a single, identifiable, residential treatment facility.
Which one?
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It's not relevant.
Unless of course you're going to use it to call me brain dead, or otherwise paint a target on me and drop torpedoes on my head.
Who said BM doesn't work? Hmmmmm That's BS.
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But how do you intend to present positive evidence relating to a residential treatment facility if you can't make the name available?
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It's not relevant.
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It is relevant. You're telling us that you've found a good, safe and effective program. If it truly is then it can surely stand up to a little scrutiny. Obviously we're not going to agree on a lot of things but this is a completely open forum so you're free to point out where we're wrong. If some people call you brain dead and offer no opinion as to why they disagree with you, ignore them and state your position to the rest of us. I don't understand why that is so difficult for you. Yes this board is rough but it is possible to carry on a conversation even in the middle of all of it. You seem dead set on only responding to or focusing on the people who are giving you shit. That's a very convenient excuse for ignoring questions you either can't or are afraid to answer. There seems to be about 3 others of us who are asking for a rational discussion. Quit being such a baby and deal with them.
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Albert Ellis and REBT
I have to confess that I'm not up to speed about this particular form of treatment. From a quick read, it appears to be somewhat of a hybrid of tried-and-true methods, CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and RET (rational emotive therapy). If that's true, it should have merit in certain circumstances. I myself subscribe to the principles of RET and have had quite a bit of success with it.
I am wary of behavioral approaches because, although they work to change some behaviors, the changes are not enduring and are not transferable, i.e. they are environment-specific.
Of course, from a basic view of psychology, treating behaviors is akin to treating symptoms in medicine. Treating the behavior alone does not address the underlying psychopathology and therefore is inherently ineffective (like giving aspirin for Dengue fever - the pain is lessened, but the disease is still deadly, despite the lack of symptoms).
For example, any basic psych 101 text will use the phrase "A - B - C" or "attitudes create behaviors and behaviors create consequences." The problem with behaviorism is that it addresses only the behavior and the consequence and gives no gravity to the attitude, which, of course, is the genesis for all behaviors not related to biological survival.
It is my opinion that "programs" are largely ineffective due to this very basic flaw in their construction.
Beyond this, I suppose the conversation is over, as you have chosen not to specify which program you are patronizing or discuss its methods. I suspect it is largely BM, as every program I have ever studied has its basis in BM.
If you'd like to discuss this issue further, it will require your disclosure of specifics. Of course, I would recommend you do not disclose personal information like your name, email address or other such particulars in an open forum, but if you could tell me what your child's presenting diagnosis is and which program you sought treatment from, I'm certain I can offer some insight and advice. Otherwise, good luck with your kid and sincerely hope it all works out for your family.
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It seems a judgement based on diagnosis alone, without the situation context, would be difficult...wouldn't it?
PTSD, severe depression, and defiant behavior. She was borderline eating disorder - although a clinical instrument did not reveal anerexia per se. She was doing self harm.
After seeing her recently, her therapist said she (I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact words she used) has made enormous improvements in her assurance of herself, her overall attitude, and ability to overcome irrational thoughts with rational. She sees no indications of self harm. Her attitude of her sexual / emotional abuser was healthy and rational.
She is in a Three Springs facility, soon to be out. With that said... We have been heavily involved in processing issues with her and driving much of the therapy process as we can. Yes, the program provides a vehicle for structure (which I guess is part of your agrument), but I don't believe a program alone (i.e. sending the kid off to be fixed) can work effectively by itself.
Maybe I'm speaking too early. If I am understanding your position correctly, you believe any changes that may be evident (if they are even evident) will not be lasting?
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I just pullled this off of the ST site. I'm curious to get everyone's thoughts on this post from there.
goldenguru
Member
Member # 4289
Sorry hb~
I know how difficult it is to "let them go" and to watch them walk out that door. Hopefully your son will quickly realize that life at home isn't so bad. You may find that this time 'on his own' proves more productive than harmful. That has been our experience.
I was talking to my daughter about this thread ... read her my response. She made such an insightful comment that I would like to share it with you. She reminded me that when we pulled her out of bed almost two and a half years ago and flew her across the country - that it was OUR decision to make her stop using, cutting, running away, etc. That WE desired for her to "get better". But, when she came home (16 months later ... drug free, etc.) she subconsciously decided to "pick up where she left off". Yes she left home, used drugs, cut, etc. It was at THAT time that she decided for HERSELF that SHE no longer wanted to live that way. In psychobabble terms she had made an internal choice regarding her behaviors (rather than having externals forced upon her). That made so much sense to me. She owned her own decisions and her own recovery. She owned her own life. It was a epiphany moment for me and I understood at a much deeper level why she made some of the post program choices that she made.
I hope that helps. Your son has the tools. He knows how the game is played. He now has to decide on his own what life is going to look like.
Hang in there. Jane is right. You'll be OK.
--------------------
Kelly
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DJ I messed up and posted as Guest...
And it was her therapist at home who assessed her recently...
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PSTD, depression and cutting. Hmmm. Makes sense: being abused is traumatic and depressing and most people cut because of the emotional pain. I sincerely hope your family will take the steps necessary to make the abuser accountable for his or her actions. Justice can go a lvery long way towards helping the depression. Many kids feel like they are at fault and are less than nothing when they've been abused then a lot of them get abandoned and shipped off to abusive "behavioral" schools which only adds to the feelings of hopelessness and devaluation ( and reinforces the feeling that it is all their fault). I hope this will not be the case for your daughter and that she will find empowerment in seeing her abuser held accountable. Good luck.
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Just for clarification esarks -- is your daughter still at three springs, because i have half a mind to call child protective services based on what i know about the company.
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Might ask her if she's been required to do any role playing exercises in which she plays the victim. Seems to be a popular technique in the industry.
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Let me try to clarify my position... I am not advocating residential therapy as an ideal solution. In my opinion, it is a last resort to be avoided if possible. But I do feel it is an option in the continuum of care for some rare situations.
I am advocating trying to find solutions to avoid residential therapy, just like I believed we tried to do. Especially if the greatest indicators are merely defiant behavior. I was, however, convinced my child's safety was at great risk in her current environment, and that her life was in danger.
I'm not waving a banner for any program trying to get parents to send their kids to be fixed. I believe in our situation the program has helped, rather than hurt.
If you feel you must campaign to close all the programs down - that can certainly be your position. And if there are atrocities being committed, those must be exposed. Get your cameras, or whatever you need, and publish them on the front page.
Question: What are the keys to successful transitions from residential treatment?
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If the APA is totally opposed to residential treatment for adolescents then why was this residential program awarded the APA Gold Award? In other words, are there settings where the APA acknowledges adolescent residential treatment? If so, what are the guidelines as spelled out by the APA for those settings? How would we use those guidelines to determine how the APA would view a program such as Three Springs?
2004 APA Gold Award: Using Dialectical Behavior Therapy to Help Troubled Adolescents Return Safely to Their Families and Communities
The Grove Street Adolescent Residence of The Bridge of Central Massachusetts, Inc.
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What are the keys to successful transitions from residential treatment?
The layman's answer to this question is "Accuracy, stealth, and weapon choice", but as a more studied person I'd have to say "Prior planning, technical know-how, and training". Even if you've performed an extermination/evacuation with a 100% kill/release rate, if the old school bus you 'borrowed' for the operation breaks down five miles out on I-90 west out of Montana, you're pretty much SOL.
Successfully transitioning teens from residential treatment is not for everyone. If you have a heart condition, high blood pressure, or bad aim, consult your doctor before emptying any facility.
If the APA is totally opposed to residential treatment for adolescents then why was this residential program awarded the APA Gold Award?
Let's review, shall we?
- Therapy provided by extremely well-qualified professionals; consists of actual therapy, not LGATs or cult bullshit
- Non-profit; no incentive to keep children in
- Focuses on returning children to the community
- Follows the least-restrictive-placement idea of psychiatric treatment
- Understands that the home environment is usually part of the problem, and provides therapy to parents
In other words, Grove Street is fairly much the antithesis of the programs discussed here at Fornits.
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I would like to know when and if you are going to help your daughter by having her abuser arrested? Until she knows that justice is being sought there will always be a big hole in whatever therapy etc. you provide for her. So who is it and what is being done? I sure hope it is not a family member or boyfriend you want to protect. The creep belongs in jail. And so do you if you do not seek justice for your daughter.
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Shouldn't it be obvious by now who her abuser (assuming she really exists at all) is?
He just didn't want to do it himself anymore.
Read his previous posts with this in mind and they start making a lot more sense.
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The abuser was not someone we were trying to protect. We did go after him. Unfortunately, since he was also a minor the police said he'd get a slap on the wrist.
At the time she was not willing to testify against him. After we learned more about the situation... we went back to the poilce again. They said it would be her word against his. I had telephone recordings. They said it was inadmissable because he didn't know he was being recorded.
I am very disappointed in the laws and law enforcement's inability to assist. I had to turn my attention to getting my daughter help, which consisted of intensive family therapy - as this was a family problem, not just her problem. I believe I should take responsibility and do what I can to change laws to help protect kids from school peer abusers.
I'm not perfect. I didn't throw in the towel and choose residential treatment. We spent two years trying other alternatives. We did our best to follow the advice of "professionals."
And I'm offended at your twisted thinking for believing I wanted this for my daughter!!!
In my opinion, the APA and the entire industry does not come out with a clear voice on this issue. Just like what the poster said about some residential programs versus others. Look, I did the best I knew how. And I have not....ever....ever....ever stopped loving my daughter and telling her that I love her, and telling her that my love is not based on what she does or does not do in or out of therapy. And that it doesn't matter what happened, what she did, or what she does in the future. She is my daughter. What I did was not to make my life easier... I'm trying to save her. You can disagree with that.
And so I can sit on a board like this and get trashed by all you out there... And that's supposed to help????
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Might ask her if she's been required to do any role playing exercises in which she plays the victim. Seems to be a popular technique in the industry.
Sounds a lot more like BDSM than therapy there, Deborah.
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In an interview with Dr. James Alexander, progenitor of functional family therapy (FFT), he states:
That is one of the things that a lot of people in our field don?t
tend to acknowledge. They tend to act as if they believe that
if we give parents a tool to be good parents, they are going
to be happy and just start adopting those tools. And even
when the kid changes, a lot of times the parent won?t
change, and the thing falls apart. A lot of treatment programs
that are residential experience this; they pull kids out of the
home environment and ?fix them? and then put them back in
the original environment. Then what they say is, ?You all
have to continue to do the right thing the way we did in residential
treatment.? But you know residential treatment has
people that are paid and trained to do things well."
Now isn't that interesting...that he doesn't bash the residential treatment program...but rather acknowledges they have people who are paid and trained to do things well.
He goes on to say...
Parents, in contrast, a lot of times have mental health or
other issues themselves... And all of these things do not allow them
to continue the positive changes that, in fact, were made in
residential treatment, boot camp, or similar programs that
remove the youth from their natural environment but then
return them without changing the natural environment. In
contrast, evidence programs such as FFT and multisystemic
therapy deal directly with those natural environments.
Did he just acknowledge postive changes that, in fact, were made in residential treatment, boot camp, or similar programs? Yes, he did.
How interesting that a person of such renowned reputation would actually admit there are positive changes that can and do occur in these programs.
And that's something proponents of FFT on this board have NEVER acknowledged.
http://http://tfj.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/14/3/306
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Somehow I think he meant state-run psychiatric facilities instead of private prisons, because I can't imagine him endorsing this (link) (http://http://www.heal-online.org/threespgs.htm) as a valid form of treatment.
I'll wait until you're done reading that. You done? Every word? It's all important, you know. All right, let's continue.
What he's saying can be boiled down decisively: The kids are fucked up because the parents are fucked up, and returning the kids to their fucked up parents will lead to disaster. "The program was a horror show but at least it beat living with my mom": THAT is a sentiment you might see on Fornits for some of the hellholes that don't abuse kids *quite* as much as Three Springs does.
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Somehow I think he meant state-run psychiatric facilities instead of private prisons, because I can't imagine him endorsing this (link) (http://http://www.heal-online.org/threespgs.htm) as a valid form of treatment.
I understand you can't imagine him saying residential treatment and even boot camps are producing valuable changes. I was shocked too. But go back and read it again. And repeat it out loud.
I agree he his not giving blanket approval for all programs. But certainly you do agree that he does give credit to some of these programs for producing positive results and EVEN "fixing" kids. And that's the admission I have yet to hear you or anyone else state.
See, the problem is that "all of you people" (I know, generalization) love to slam the crap out of me because I would even think of residential treatment as a possible alternative. But apparently Dr. Alexander does. No wonder there is so much confusion about this topic...
And here's the real key that I think is so important about what he says. It can't stop there. I mean, let's just say, for the sake of argument, my daughter does get some help in residential treatment (which I believe she is). His point, and what you are also saying, is that it can't stop there - that if she comes back to the same situation - and if the family dynamic sucks, then any good she did make is going to be erased. And I totally agree with that. Do you?
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Odds are he didn't have a damn clue about what really goes on and was conflating the good with the bad. Does he talk at length about what a residential treatment program entails, uses, or is? I doubt it. It's not his job to know what goes on. His specialty is FFT, not shitpits masquerading as therapy. I doubt he even knows what any of this is. I'd bet you a fat amount of money that if he did know, he'd wouldn't be supportive, he'd be appalled.
Someone actually mind contacting this professional, showing him the relevant evidence, and asking him to make a statement on the main forum at Fornits? Somehow I think it'll shut this argument down right quick.
Wait, asshole, you replied way too soon.. you didn't even read that link, did you? Would you like to read that out loud instead? Wait, why the hell am I even pretending you're real?
You know what, asshole? The jig's up. You don't have a daughter, or if you do, you clearly don't give two shits about anything more than your own vindication. The last person to get on my nerves involving a fictional kid got a piece of his soul ripped out, and is now struggling in a futile bid to hold onto his career. You wanna fucking join him?
Don't reply to me. Reply to what I linked to. Because the statements made in that link (detailed descriptions of extreme humiliation and abuse, like some twisted S&M fantasy without the whole 'consent' part) are far more important than anything I can say to you.
Then there was the real abuse. I remember a member named Kenny who had PTSD. He was a very low functioning individual that rarely spoke and had a very difficult time taking care of himself. Each group has its own campsite which we are responsible for keeping clean. They would actually have us sweep the dirt ground outside for hours to make it smooth. One day on the weekend Kenny was responsible for sweeping the dirt floor of our firewood hut. He started eating spider webs and kids in the group started making fun of him. The staff that was in charge that day told the group that if Kenny wouldn?t do his cleaning task, we should ?clean him?. Kenny started acting out and lay down on the ground. The staff ordered us to take the brooms and start sweeping his body. It got violent and he was messed up pretty badly with a bunch of us hitting him with brooms and scratching him up with them. (the bristles were worn down to almost sticks from the daily outdoor use).
Yeah. Therapy.
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I will continue to study the site. Hadn't seen it before - and I thought the (link) didn't come through. I will be interested in hearing the results of those testimonies. These are the kind of atrocities that should be reported.
But why would that cause you to continue giving me crap for trying to do my part? See, that's just as narrow minded as you claim I am.
I don't know why you would say I don't have a daughter and my postings are not real. I guess it doesn't matter does it? I have to do what I have to do for her. Regardless of what anyone says on this forum.
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My fucking GOD.
I will be interested in hearing the results of those testimonies. These are the kind of atrocities that should be reported.
THAT is your reaction? Not "I'm going to get to the bottom of this and find out if it's bullshit or not, because my fucking DAUGHTER is in there"? Not even a blanket statement of "There's no way this can be for real"? You're more interested in defending your precious decision, again assuming you're not a paid shill, than anything else. It's disgusting.
PARENTS! You too can end up just like THIS GUY, for the low, low price of thousands of dollars and your integrity!
Oh, and these statements to HEAL aren't going anywhere in any court- at least not yet. In the one correct statement you've made so far, law enforcement won't do anything.
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Boo goes the who :o
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esark, why would you cite a paper that can't be read without an Editor/Society/Insitution Subscription? Post the entire paper if you have a membership. Why do you have a membership to Sage?
I've been reading up on Alexander and his Functional Family Therapy (FFT) approach. I can't find any reference to him being in support of residential treatment. In fact, it's the antithesis of what he recommends- Family Therapy.
My take on what he said is, IFa kid happens to benefit from a residential placement with highly qualified professionals, s/he will not be successful at home because the parents were not included.
Everything I read about this guy supports intense family therapy, 12-30 sessions with one of his specially trained therapist. I can?t find one instance in which he endorses residential treatment.
Teaches Psych at University of Utah
http://www.psych.utah.edu/classes/ (http://www.psych.utah.edu/classes/)
Dr. James Alexander, University of Utah, received the American Psychological Association Division 43 Distinguished Contribution to Family Psychology Award on July 29, 2004.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/DirReports/DirR ... ort20.html (http://www.nida.nih.gov/DirReports/DirRep904/DirectorReport20.html)
Faculty. Dr. James Alexander (Ph.D., 1967, Michigan State University) is the course instructor and will also lecture on abnormal and clinical psychology. His intervention model, Functional Family Therapy, has been chosen by the CDC, US Surgeon?s General, National Institute of Justice as one of the few empirically validated interventions for disruptive behavior disorders in adolescents. http://www.psych.utah.edu/classes/2006_ ... llabus.pdf (http://www.psych.utah.edu/classes/2006_fall/1010_001/syllabus.pdf)
And what does the US Surgeon General say about Boot Camps and Residential Treatment?
Compared to traditional forms of incarceration, boot camps produced no significant effects on recidivism in three out of four evaluations and trends toward increased recidivism in two. The fourth evaluation showed significant harmful effects on youths, with a significant increase in recidivism.
While some residential programs appear to have positive effects on youths as long as they remain in the institutional setting, research demonstrates consistently that these effects diminish once young people leave.
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/y ... veTertiary (http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/youthviolence/chapter5/sec6.html#IneffectiveTertiary)
From the US Dept of Justice re: FFT
From 1973 to the present, published data have reflected the positive outcomes of FFT. Data show, for instance, that when compared with standard juvenile probation services, residential treatment, and alternative therapeutic approaches, FFT is highly successful. Both randomized trials and nonrandomized comparison group studies (Alexander et al., 2000) show that FFT significantly reduces recidivism for a wide range of juvenile offense patterns. In addition, studies have found that FFT dramatically reduces the cost of treatment. A recent Washington State study, for example, shows savings of up to $14,000 per family (Aos, Barnoski, and Lieb, 1998). FFT also significantly reduces potential new offending for siblings of treated adolescents (Klein, Alexander, and Parsons, 1977). Figures 1 (randomized clinical trials) and 2 (comparison studies) summarize the outcome findings of FFT studies conducted during the past 30 years. These studies show that when compared with no treatment, other family therapy interventions, and traditional juvenile court services (e.g., probation), FFT can reduce adolescent rearrests by 20?60 percent. http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/184743.pdf (http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/184743.pdf)
In December of 2000, Office of Juvenile Justice of Delinquency Prevention issued a Juvenile Justice Bulletin on FFT by the founders of FFT (Sexton & Alexander, 2000). The OJJDP Bulletin cited recidivism rates for the FFT treated population at just over 20% while the residential treatment cases had a recidivism rate of approximately 90%. These figures are not inconsistent with the New York State experience where estimates of recidivism after placement in a juvenile justice facility approach or exceed 90% while some intensive aftercare models have succeeded in reducing recidivism rates to approximately 20%.
What is FFT?
? Empirically grounded, well-documented and highly successful family intervention program for dysfunctional youth
? Applied to a wide range of at-risk youth aged 11-18 and their families, including youth with problems such as conduct disorder, violent acting-out, and substance abuse
? Intervention ranges from, on average, 8 to 12 one-hour sessions up to 30 sessions of direct service for more difficult situations
? Conducted both in clinic settings as an outpatient therapy and as a home-based model
? A treatment technique that is appealing because of its clear identification of specific phases, which organize intervention in a coherent manner, thereby allowing clinicians to maintain focus in the context of considerable family and individual disruption
? Each phase includes specific goals, assessment foci, specific techniques of intervention, and therapist skills necessary for success.
Who benefits from FFT?
Youth ages 10-18, and their families, whose problems range from acting out to conduct disorder to alcohol/substance abuse. Often these families tend to have limited resources, histories of failure, a range of diagnoses and exposure to multiple systems. FFT can be provided in a variety of contexts, including schools, child welfare, probation, parole/aftercare, mental health, and as an alternative to incarceration or out-of-home placement.
http://www.fftinc.com/whatis.php (http://www.fftinc.com/whatis.php)
http://www.hspeople.com/includes/hspeop ... 050701.cfm (http://www.hspeople.com/includes/hspeople/hspeople/archives/feature/050701.cfm)
In a recent article regarding FFT in King County Washington, parents noted that FFT worked for their children because of "the emphasis on working with the youth as part of the family (Loughran, 2002). The therapist focused on real, every day solutions to dealing with missed curfews, truancy and drug use. Families learned not to blame the youth or the parents but to talk about differences and talk about attainable goals as a group. A therapist usually meets with families in their homes, at their convenience, and provides continued support after the formal sessions have concluded". It is important that young people are seen as part of the family in this therapy model. In addition, FFT should be accessible to all and according to need. FFT should promote communication between the parents and the young person. The focus of this model needs to be on the total family, not just the young person's issues. Additionally, FFT should consider working with interventions that have made a positive difference in the family.
http://www.omh.state.ny.us/omhweb/ebp/children_fft.htm (http://www.omh.state.ny.us/omhweb/ebp/children_fft.htm)
In general, treatment programs must integrate cognitive, affective and social interventions. They must also be community-based with a strong case advocacy component. Programs should also provide opportunities for the child?s involvement and should demonstrate respect for the youth.8 In view of the fact that "most violent behavior is learned behavior",5 there is a great potential for successful intervention. The Center for the Study and Prevention of Violence has reviewed over 450 delinquency, drug and violence prevention programs and has identified ten programs that meet a high standard (see references for the list).12 The duration of treatment was typically two to five years. The average cost for a stay in the Department of Corrections is $40,000.00 per year,9 while residential treatment programs cost between $20,000 and $40,000 per youth per year, and mentoring and visitation programs cost $1,000 and $7,000 per year respectively. Four of the ten model programs saved more money than they cost in a three-year period. "Our most effective prevention programs achieve a thirty to forty percent reduction in onset or offending rates compared to control groups or average rates."12
12. Elliott, Delbert S. Prevention Programs that Work for Youth: Violence Prevention. Center for the Study and Prevention of Violence, 1998. (The Nurse Home Visitation Program-Dr. David Olds, The Bullying Prevention Program-Dr. Dan Olweus, Promoting Alternative Thinking Strategies (PATHS)-Dr. Mark Greenburg, Big Brothers Big sisters Mentoring Program-Ms. Dagmar McGill, Life Skills Training-Dr. Gil Botvin, Midwestern Prevention Project-Dr. Mary Ann Pentz, Quantum Opportunities-Mr. Ben Lattimore, Multisystemic Therapy (MST)-Dr. Scott Henggeler, Functional Family Therapy (FFT)-Dr. James Alexander, Multidimensional Treatment Foster Care-Dr. Patricia Chamberlain
http://www.emory.edu/AAPL/newsletter/N232juv-viol.htm (http://www.emory.edu/AAPL/newsletter/N232juv-viol.htm)
Dr. James Alexander of the Department of Psychology at the University of Utah developed a research-based intervention called Functional Family Therapy for use with delinquent youth (Alexander and Parsons, 1982). Alexander's family therapy research worked closely with the courts and randomly assigned first-time court offenders to his approach and contrasted it with several other approaches. His family therapy interventions with families of delinquent youth involved changing how the families interacted with one another (e.g., using communication training, including problem solving, listening, and taking turns speaking). When Alexander and Parsons did 3-year followups with court data, they found that the recidivism rates of the family therapy youth were half those of youth who received the routine array of available services (Alexander and Parsons, 1982). In addition, after the intervention, the siblings of the delinquents in the study's treatment group were also followed; they were half as likely as siblings of control group youth to get involved in the court system as delinquents. Some findings of Alexander's study are integrated into FAST family communication activities. http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/9911_2/fam6.html (http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/9911_2/fam6.html)
Details on FAST, based on FFT
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/173423.pdf (http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/173423.pdf)
Sexton and Alexander?s work with functional family therapy (so called because it focuses its interventions on family relationships that influence and are influenced by, and thus are functions of, positive and negative behaviors) for youth offenders found that family therapy nearly halved the rate of re-offending?19.8 percent in the treatment group compared to 36 percent in a control group. The cost of the family therapy ranged from $700 to $1,000 per family for the 2-year study period. The average cost of detention for that period was at least $6,000 per youth; the cost of a residential treatment program was at least $13,500. In this instance, the cost benefits of family therapy were clear and compelling.
An adolescent who is primarily smoking marijuana, for instance, is a good candidate for family systems work. On the other hand, if a youth is mixing cocaine, amphetamines, alcohol, and other drugs, the client is likely to need more extensive services detoxification, residential treatment, or intensive outpatient therapy which can be used in addition to family therapy (Liddle and Hogue 2001).
http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summar ... 6&nbr=3872 (http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?ss=15&doc_id=5886&nbr=3872)
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The continuing theme in these forums continues to be 100% equivocally opposed to residential therapy of all kinds. Parents who are receiving professional guidance by those in the industry are lambasted by those in these forums as obviously uncaring, cruel tryants who want no good from their kids.
Fact: The APA has awarded the Gold Award to at least one residential therapy program, thus creating an impression or question that there is a place in the continuum of care for residential treatment.
Fact: The progenitor of FFT has acknowledged residential treatment (including boot camps, of all things) have produced positive results in cases.
Fact: Whenever positions like these are presented, the obvious answer by members of these forums is to degrade the conversation into higher levels of attack and threats, rather than acknowledge the decisions are not as clear cut or black and white as may have been stated by those in these forums.
Why do I have a membership to sage? Because it is free, and I wanted to do my research to find out what FFT really is all about. It is a very positive and appears to be a successful treatment. And I believe, contrary to you, that Dr. Alexander would approve of it as a systematic and multi-phase approach to treatment which might even include residential therapy.
Once again... I am not defending the abuses which are present in the residential therapy industry. I am not denying the benefits of FFT or similar therapy. I am merely stating that you seem to be cutting parents off at the knees for trying to help their kids. You have justified your position by quoting the APA and such sources. And I'm just saying that it is NOT that clear by the APA, by Dr. Alexendar or any other source. So cut us a break!
Of course I'm fairly confident this post will be answer by more slanderous accusations...because you have no compassion in your own right. I guess it was lost along the way somewhere....
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Fact: The APA has awarded the Gold Award to at least one residential therapy program, thus creating an impression or question that there is a place in the continuum of care for residential treatment.
Esark, you're missing the point again and agian. YES, the APA does approve of SOME RTC's, HOWEVER, you fail to note the DEFINITIONS of such facilities.
3 Springs and others like it ARE NOT RTC's! They are pseudo-RTC's that provide NONE of the services offered by quality facilities.
The devil's in the details and you refuse to look at them. You compare apples to oranges, as Deb pointed out.
If you think I'm wrong, show where the APA backs ANY "TBS," "Boot Camp," or "Emotional Growth" facility. Show ONE and I'll concede the point entirely. When the APA says "RTC" what they mean (read their definitions) is a regulated, licensed facility which employs licensed, fully-credentialed practitioners who engage clients in real therapy. they do NOT mean an unlicensed, unregulated private program that employs unlicensed, uneducated staff and teachers. I assure you, 3 Springs does not resemble the former in any way, shape or form.
Stop setting up strawmen that can easily be knocked down to try to score points in a debate or feel better about your decision. You DID NOT place your kid in a facility that is approved or even acknowledged by the APA. It is not a psychiatric facility. It is a behavior modification center, as shown by all of the literature available and as enumerated quite thoughtfully by former employess, who, in my long experience, are the ONLY ones who actually KNOW what goes on behind closed doors in these warehouses.
And, BTW,I don't know of a SINGLE poster here who is opposed to residential treatment. That is another strawman argument. Almost every single person who posts here will tell you that when a child is in danger of hurting or killing themselves or another, it is appropriate to plcae them in a RTC for the period required to stabilize them, usually NO MORE THAN THIRTY DAYS.
So, stop mixing your metaphors, get down to the brass tacks, stop setting up strawmen and get your facts straight.
There ARE people here who would like to help you, but being defensive, close-minded and skewing the information you present gives the impression that you don't want help, but rather wish to justify or prove correct your actions. That doesn't float here. For a sycophantic pat on the back and a slew of "atta boy's" you need to post on StrugglingTeens, where nobody is criticized, programs cannot be spoken of and any pro-program idea, no matter how misinformed or factually bereft is lauded and encouraged.
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I posted this on another thread, but it seems it should have gone here...
Also, whenever I see "BM" used by a programee, I can't help but think of it as a euphemism for "shit". I have noticed I tend to want to excoriate these programees and EdCons, but when they say this isn't the forum for recognizing non-abusive, forward-thinking facilities, I think it's because they're not aware of any or don't represent any. Okay, I've been accused of being too "emotionally involved" and "angry" to engage in discussion of better programs. How about I offer up my knowledge of one, and I'm not afraid to name it. Sheppard Pratt in MD is a fine facility that I would recommend to anyone. It is more expensive than most, but the kids' stays are shorter. Sheppard Pratt would be the model program to base new facilities on after we wipe the slate clean of the brutal and sometimes lethal programs out there now. A NATSAP seal on a website should be a sign to a parent to look elsewhere.
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A NATSAP seal on a website should be a sign to a parent to look elsewhere.
Well said. A NATSAP seal on a website is a big red flag.
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Have you compared Grove Street?s DBT method with Three Springs, or any other BM warehouse?s method? You can start here:
First GS is small, 9 participants.
DBT posits that borderline personality disorder is caused by pervasive emotional dysregulation. Symptoms of borderline personality are thought to result when an adolescent who is biologically and emotionally vulnerable is placed in an environment that repeatedly communicates to the child that his or her reactions, feelings, and thoughts are faulty or inaccurate.[Have to wonder how many kids come out of programs with BPD] Self-injurious behaviors may serve to regulate emotions and to elicit help from an environment that is otherwise unsupportive. The core dialectic of DBT treatment balances acceptance of the patient and the simultaneous need for change. DBT treatment uses validation strategies that require the therapist to search for, recognize, and reflect to the patient?and to each family member?the validity inherent in his or her response to events and the environment. Linehan described six levels of validation: listening nonjudgmentally; accurate reflection; mind-reading, or articulating unspoken thoughts and feelings; understanding the historical background of a behavior; confirming thoughts, behaviors, and feelings on the basis of current circumstances; and radical genuineness, which requires the therapist to speak authentically to the patient and his or her family.
Fact: The progenitor of FFT has acknowledged residential treatment (including boot camps, of all things) have produced positive results in cases.
He did no such thing. ?In contrast [to residential/boot camp programs], evidence programs such as FFT and multisystemic therapy deal directly with those natural environments.? Natural environments referring to the HOMES the kids were removed from.
Alexander/FFT presents an alternative to residential treatment. Claims 20% recidivism, vs 90% in residential.
And I'm just saying that it is NOT that clear by the APA, by Dr. Alexendar or any other source.
I doubt you?ll find an APA position paper that opposes RTCs. That?s the industry?s Bread ?n Butter. The APA supported restraints in RTCs a few years ago. Like any other industry club, they need to be taken with a grain of salt. There's significant research posted here on the negative effects of aggregating distressed kids.
Why do I have a membership to sage? Because it is free, and I wanted to do my research to find out what FFT really is all about. It is a very positive and appears to be a successful treatment. And I believe, contrary to you, that Dr. Alexander would approve of it as a systematic and multi-phase approach to treatment which might even include residential therapy.
Where did you first hear of FFT?
Why is Sage free for you? It?s not free to the rest of us. http://www.sagepub.com/journalsSubscrib ... rnal200924 (http://www.sagepub.com/journalsSubscribe.nav?prodId=Journal200924)
If you have the article, post it.
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A NATSAP seal on a website should be a sign to a parent to look elsewhere.
Well said. A NATSAP seal on a website is a big red flag.
NATSAP's a SADSACK. Organized Crime.
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PS. You will find a position paper on RTCs/"Behavior Modification Boarding Schools" by the Assoc of Child and Adolescent Psychiatric Nurses here:
http://www.teenliberty.org/ACAPN.htm (http://www.teenliberty.org/ACAPN.htm)
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Association of Child and Adolescent Psychiatric Nursing
The following Declaration was passed by the Board and membership of the Association of Child and Adolescent Psychiatric Nursing at their September 1998 annual meeting *****
A position regarding the detention of minor children in psychiatric treatment facilities, drug and alcohol treatment facilities, residential treatment facilities, and "behavior modification boarding schools."
§ All children have the right to be treated with dignity and free from mistreatment, abuse, neglect, and exploitation.
§ ACAPN opposes the abduction and involuntary transport of children to facilities for confinement unless such measures have been clinically justified in specific, operational terms by a licensed mental health professional with the legal authority to do so. In the event that such tactics are necessary for the immediate protection of the child and/or society, the child must have access to an appeal process commensurate with the same right of habeas corpus available to every citizen of the United States of America.
§ Children have the right to appropriate treatment in the least restrictive available setting in the event that treatment is necessary.
This setting must be one that provides the highest likelihood for improvement and that is not more restrictive of their physical liberty than is needed for their own protection or for the protection of society.
§ Prior to the child's admission a copy of their rights (written in clear and understandable language) should be given to them and explained to them verbally by a licensed staff member. A duplicate copy should be given to the child's family members(s) or guardian(s). If owing to the child's condition at the time of admission, the child has not understood his/her rights, a licensed staff member will provide an explanation to the child within 24 hours and periodically until some degree of understanding is reached. The necessity for repeating the rights communication process will be documented, signed, and dated. In the event that the child is very young, the rights should be explained to them in a way commensurate with their level of understanding.
Professional registered nurses, as directed by the A.N.A. code of ethics, are obliged to assure that the rights of children and families are in no way violated.
§ Prior to admission the child and his/her family or guardian(s) has the right to be informed of all institutional rules and regulations and consequence/reward structure concerning their conduct and course of treatment. These should be clearly stated in writing and a copy should be provided to all parties for reference purposes.
§ Treatment (including behavior modification procedures, therapies, educational activities) provided by any facility, including psychiatric hospitals, drug and alcohol treatment centers, residential treatment facilities, and "behavior modification boarding schools") must be professionally and clinically justifiable. This means that procedures to which children are subjected must be defensible as being within the realm of professional psychiatric standards of practice and affirmed by empirical research data as being appropriate.
§ ACAPN affirms the right of children to talk and write to persons outside the detainment facility at any time during their detainment without having such communication censored or monitored unless such monitoring is clinically justifiable (and justified) for the safety of the child or others. This right includes the right to contact an attorney.
§ ACAPN opposes any prohibition on barriers to communication imposed by any facility including rigid and restrictive visiting policies, policies that restrict parents from visiting their children, limited access to telephones, and barriers to mail service.
§ ACAPN opposes any and all punitive measures. Children should not be physically restrained (restriction of body parts by device or by placement in an isolated, locked room) unless every avenue of prevention of harm to themselves or others has been exhausted. The successive steps employed in the prevention of aggressive behavior must be clearly stated in specific operational terms. In the event that such restraint becomes necessary it should be done humanely and in accordance to standard aggressive behavior management (ABM) protocol by persons who have been trained and who have received instruction in ABM prior to their exposure to clinical situations. Children's face and head must never be obstructed at anytime. The restraint must be applied while the child is in a supine position. Any medication administered to the child must be ordered by (physician or advanced practice nurse) and administered by a licensed professional. Children should never be left alone while in restraints or while secluded. The duration of physical restraint of any kind should extend only until the child is sufficiently in control of him/herself to no longer pose a threat to themselves or to others.
Restraints must be "broken" every 2 hours at a minimum, the child should be offered fluids, toileting, and vital signs should be taken. Restraint orders must be re-written every 24 hours after the child is evaluated by a licensed professional with legal authority to do so. All restraint procedures must be justified in writing and in specific, individual, operational (as opposed to general) terms.
§ Children have the right to be cared for in a developmentally appropriate way by competent certified professionals who have had both the salient education and experience commensurate with working with a pediatric population. They have the right to therapies that are rendered by persons who have the appropriate education and training in those therapies. Treatment and therapies must be temporally and developmentally geared in such a way that they are meaningful to children.
§ Children have the right to have access to an advocacy group (such as Advocacy Inc.) as well as access to support groups such as the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. Advocacy groups and their telephone numbers should displayed in a prominent place where all patients can see them. When advocates are called, they must have free access to patients/clients.
§ Children have the right to review the information in their medical record with supervision. The right extends to the child's family or guardian.
§ Children have the right to have their records kept private and to be told about the conditions under which information about them will be disclosed without their permission.
§ Children and their families have the right to a treatment plan that is individually developed for their situations as well as the treatment plan for care after they leave the facility. This treatment plan should be developed in collaboration with children and families and should be monitored for appropriateness and for patient progress with their participation on a specified, regular basis by a team of therapists.
§ Children and families have the right to be told about the care, procedures, and treatment that they are given in terms that they will understand.
§ Children and families have the right to be informed about the staff members who are their caregivers. This means information such as professional discipline, job title, and responsibilities. In addition, they have the right to know about any proposed change in the appointment of professional staff members who are responsible for their care.
§ Custodial parents may request that their voluntarily admitted child(ren) be released from any hospital or institution within 72 hours without any delay on the part of the facility. ACAPN opposes the use of any coercive tactics designed to compel parents to reverse their decisions to withdraw their child(ren) from treatment.
§ Custodial parents may request that their involuntarily admitted child(ren) be released from any hospital or institution within 72 hours without any delay on the part of the facility. ACAPN opposes the use of any coercive tactics designed to compel parents to reverse their decisions to withdraw their child(ren) from treatment. Children and families have the right to a copy of the institutional billing that is done directly to the third party payer. This billing must clearly specify in specific lay terms what service was rendered, when it was rendered, and what was charged for the service.
--This Declaration was received by email and reposted on the Teen
Registry web site by Alexia Parks alexia@votelink.com)
**********************************************************************************
i've been saying the same things here for years while StrugglingParents told me i wasn't "living in reality," or some such other disqualifier.
interesting, huh?
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Quotes were taken from the article and related to how my facility ran.
ACAPN opposes the abduction and involuntary transport of children to facilities for confinement unless such measures have been clinically justified in specific, operational terms by a licensed mental health professional with the legal authority to do so. In the event that such tactics are necessary for the immediate protection of the child and/or society, the child must have access to an appeal process commensurate with the same right of habeas corpus available to every citizen of the United States of America.
The children at my facility were committed to the state of Georgia for a period of two years by the juvenile courts. We recieved juvenile justice training from the state in order to "deal" with the children that came to the facility. These children, while never fomally escorted, were always transported by their Probation Officer (PO) and left at the facility against their wills. Many of the children would rather have been in an Regional Youth Detention Center (RYDC).
Children have the right to appropriate treatment in the least restrictive available setting in the event that treatment is necessary. This setting must be one that provides the highest likelihood for improvement and that is not more restrictive of their physical liberty than is needed for their own protection or for the protection of society.
While no walls or fences were at my facility, it was far enough out (8 miles) from town that escape was impossible. There were neighbors with guns who had no trespassing signs on their property and that included escapee's. There was more than one time that we had to call the sheriff's office to assist us in handling the children out at the facility. Most of the "offenses" of children at the facility was truancy (not attending school).
Prior to the child's admission a copy of their rights (written in clear and understandable language) should be given to them and explained to them verbally by a licensed staff member. A duplicate copy should be given to the child's family members(s) or guardian(s). If owing to the child's condition at the time of admission, the child has not understood his/her rights, a licensed staff member will provide an explanation to the child within 24 hours and periodically until some degree of understanding is reached. The necessity for repeating the rights communication process will be documented, signed, and dated. In the event that the child is very young, the rights should be explained to them in a way commensurate with their level of understanding. Professional registered nurses, as directed by the A.N.A. code of ethics, are obliged to assure that the rights of children and families are in no way violated.
Didn't happen. Not at intake, not at strip search, not at meal times, not anywhere. Nor was it posted anywhere publically that the children could see. The children had to recite "creeds" which are found on the Three Springs website as part of their treatment. These creeds in no way resembled the rights of the children in the facility. The nurses were nice, but were brainwashed as well into thinking what the administration wanted them to think. They wouldn't believe the children and would take any form of reporting as the counselors would as "manipulation".
Prior to admission the child and his/her family or guardian(s) has the right to be informed of all institutional rules and regulations and consequence/reward structure concerning their conduct and course of treatment. These should be clearly stated in writing and a copy should be provided to all parties for reference purposes.
On our side, many of the parents wouldn't be notified their child had been transfered until the weekly sunday night phonecall to approved people (family). I am not sure if the families recieved any written rules or regulations.
Treatment (including behavior modification procedures, therapies, educational activities) provided by any facility, including psychiatric hospitals, drug and alcohol treatment centers, residential treatment facilities, and "behavior modification boarding schools") must be professionally and clinically justifiable. This means that procedures to which children are subjected must be defensible as being within the realm of professional psychiatric standards of practice and affirmed by empirical research data as being appropriate.
This is my favorite quote because it was the one that was most often violated. "Treatment" could hardly be considered what they would deem the standard. I am not a licenced clinician nor am I a licenced psychologist, however I was expected to act as though i knew how to handle these children psychologically and clinically. I did recieve training by the facility, most of which was juvenile justice rules and regulations and how to properly restrain a child using the "SAMA" method. I do have a bachelors degree, but does that make me qualified to administer "treatment" by standards of psychological and clinical means? NO! Any counselor or psychologist in their right minds would NEVER send a child to the Three Springs facilities. As a matter of fact, a psychiatrist told a counselor who worked at my facility that it was psychologically damaging for her to continue to work there. I can only imagine what it was like for the children.
ACAPN affirms the right of children to talk and write to persons outside the detainment facility at any time during their detainment without having such communication censored or monitored unless such monitoring is clinically justifiable (and justified) for the safety of the child or others. This right includes the right to contact an attorney. ACAPN opposes any prohibition on barriers to communication imposed by any facility including rigid and restrictive visiting policies, policies that restrict parents from visiting their children, limited access to telephones, and barriers to mail service.
People the children wrote and talk to had to be on the "approved" list. Incoming letters had to be monitored and searched for "contraband". Visitors were never left alone with the children. Short of visitation being behind plate glass, it was very similar to being in a prison.
ACAPN opposes any and all punitive measures. Children should not be physically restrained (restriction of body parts by device or by placement in an isolated, locked room) unless every avenue of prevention of harm to themselves or others has been exhausted. The successive steps employed in the prevention of aggressive behavior must be clearly stated in specific operational terms. In the event that such restraint becomes necessary it should be done humanely and in accordance to standard aggressive behavior management (ABM) protocol by persons who have been trained and who have received instruction in ABM prior to their exposure to clinical situations. Children's face and head must never be obstructed at anytime. The restraint must be applied while the child is in a supine position. Any medication administered to the child must be ordered by (physician or advanced practice nurse) and administered by a licensed professional. Children should never be left alone while in restraints or while secluded. The duration of physical restraint of any kind should extend only until the child is sufficiently in control of him/herself to no longer pose a threat to themselves or to others. Restraints must be "broken" every 2 hours at a minimum, the child should be offered fluids, toileting, and vital signs should be taken. Restraint orders must be re-written every 24 hours after the child is evaluated by a licensed professional with legal authority to do so. All restraint procedures must be justified in writing and in specific, individual, operational (as opposed to general) terms.
Most of Three Springs policies were "hands off" and restraints were discouraged, but they failed to provide us with enough training to deal with situations where it could have escalated into having the need for restraints. Durations of restraints were limited to 10 minutes whether or not the child was in control of themselves or not. If they were not, they had to be released then re-restrained.
Children have the right to be cared for in a developmentally appropriate way by competent certified professionals who have had both the salient education and experience commensurate with working with a pediatric population. They have the right to therapies that are rendered by persons who have the appropriate education and training in those therapies. Treatment and therapies must be temporally and developmentally geared in such a way that they are meaningful to children.
Bachelors degree in Outdoor Education and Leadership (not certified and out of realm of taught college classes)
Bachelors degrees in business, science, math, social work, education, and any other given field that is appropriate or not appropriate to handling children. Many times they needed the warm bodies. When I was being interviewed, I felt coerced into coming to the facility to work there immediately. I had just graduated college and they wanted me 2 weeks from when I graduated.
Children have the right to have access to an advocacy group (such as Advocacy Inc.) as well as access to support groups such as the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. Advocacy groups and their telephone numbers should displayed in a prominent place where all patients can see them. When advocates are called, they must have free access to patients/clients.
Nope, didn't happen. Most that was available was a "grievance" form which was viewed as a form of manipulation by most of the children.
Children and their families have the right to a treatment plan that is individually developed for their situations as well as the treatment plan for care after they leave the facility. This treatment plan should be developed in collaboration with children and families and should be monitored for appropriateness and for patient progress with their participation on a specified, regular basis by a team of therapists. Children and families have the right to be told about the care, procedures, and treatment that they are given in terms that they will understand.
Yeah, didn't happen either. "Treatment" was decided by the facility. Aftercare was available but hardly ever used.
Children and families have the right to be informed about the staff members who are their caregivers. This means information such as professional discipline, job title, and responsibilities. In addition, they have the right to know about any proposed change in the appointment of professional staff members who are responsible for their care.
"Don't tell the children too much about yourself or you will find they will use it to manipulate you." Any staff members who left the facility was not spoken of again. The staff who left was forbidden from speaking to the children even once to tell them why they needed to leave. In some cases the children were prepared, in others they were not. I've felt guilty about leaving the facility the way I did, but I have since come to terms with what happened and why I needed to get out of the facility.
Custodial parents may request that their voluntarily admitted child(ren) be released from any hospital or institution within 72 hours without any delay on the part of the facility. ACAPN opposes the use of any coercive tactics designed to compel parents to reverse their decisions to withdraw their child(ren) from treatment. Custodial parents may request that their involuntarily admitted child(ren) be released from any hospital or institution within 72 hours without any delay on the part of the facility. ACAPN opposes the use of any coercive tactics designed to compel parents to reverse their decisions to withdraw their child(ren) from treatment. Children and families have the right to a copy of the institutional billing that is done directly to the third party payer. This billing must clearly specify in specific lay terms what service was rendered, when it was rendered, and what was charged for the service.
While the parents were not advised about their children admitted, they were warned about manipulation by their children. Many children would talk to their Probation Officer and want to be removed from the facility. We were made to make sure the children didn't manipulate. I remember many times a probation officer would look at me after something a child said and I'd shake my head no. Now, I want to warn PO's that the facility is not suitable.
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I don't think the APA would/could publicly support "Behavior Modification Boarding Schools" if they knew the methods being employed.
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=357&Itemid=35)
APA President Gerald P. Koocher, Ph.D., stated, "Our intention is to empower and encourage members to do everything they can to prevent violations of basic human rights - at Guantanamo Bay or anywhere else they may occur. It is not enough for us to express outrage or to codify acceptable practices. As psychologists, we must use every means at our disposal to prevent abuse and other forms of cruel or degrading treatment (APA Press Release, August 10, 2006)."
~~
To place the current concerns in context: Note that it is now illegal to use any of the following practices with regard to the treatment of U.S. detainees in Guantanamo Bay and other facilities:
o Use of phobias & fears to induce stress
o Physical training (forced calisthenics)
o Exposure to cold weather
o Sleep Deprivation
o Nutritional Deprivation
o Slapping face or stomach
o Stress positions (e.g. prolonged standing)
o Isolation greater than 30 days
o Forced Labor
o Denial of Use of Bathroom
However, each of these practices is being used to "modify the behavior" of U.S. adolescents in unregulated, private residential facilities, in the name of "therapeutic" schooling and programming.
~~Unfortunately, some of these same techniques are used in programs that are licensed and regulated.
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Quick comment here.
Restraints broken every 2 hours?!?!
Uh it dont take two hours of being tied up to get under control. Thats way too long. Its pretty clearly used as a punishment.
Shit, what about claustrophobic people whod panic from that?
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Juvenile Forensic Evaluation Resource Center
Effective Treatment of Conduct Disorder
Community-based residential programs (i.e., group homes, wilderness programs) for aggressive and delinquent adolescents have been the treatment of choice for many decades. However, few are subjected to rigorous evaluation to determine if they are effective. There are several drawbacks to the use of residential treatment. First, these programs are quite expensive and require the development of a service that provides for control and security. Second, research has shown that behavior-problem adolescents assigned to groups composed of other deviant peers do not evidence a decrease in delinquent behavior and may, in fact, expand their repertoire of delinquent behavior. Finally, the behavior changes that occur during the program frequently do not generalize beyond the treatment center. Even a program like the Teaching-Family Model, with over 250 "certified" group homes and multiple outcome evaluations demonstrating significant effects while the youth is in the program, has not been able to consistently show long-term treatment effects. As a result of these disappointing outcomes, treatment foster care models are beginning to have wider use for youth who can not live at home.
http://www.ilppp.virginia.edu/Juvenile_ ... onDis.html (http://www.ilppp.virginia.edu/Juvenile_Forensic_Fact_Sheets/EffTreatConDis.html)
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And back to the NATSAP "study"
It is a fact that NATSAP presented their study to the APA. It's not like they are secretly trying to hide something. Sure they have a financial interest. Does that discount the findings completely and totally? When a pharmaceutical company presents clinical studies to the FDA, they likewise have a financial interest. It seems to me sometimes this is the way the world works.
No, NATSAP didn?t present ?their? study at the APA Convention, Behrens did.
Just as is true with the FDA and BigPharm, negative aspects of the studies are occluded, hidden. Years later they surface, only after many have had adverse effects and/or died. The FDA doesn?t protect consumers and NATSAP doesn?t protect parents or their children. They hired a woman (Behrens) with strong connections to the industry to gather surveys from (hand selected?) parents of 9 Aspen programs, then applied her findings to the entire industry.
Why only 9 programs?
Why only Aspen programs? Did Sainer completely or largely fund this study?
Where are the controls?
Where are the negative experiences? (Fornits and other survivor sites)
This is not research, it?s the results of a survey of hand-selected participants.
Results showed that teens attending licensed private residential treatment programs experienced significant improvements in all psychological and behavioral problems studied.
Where isthat list of 9 programs. I can?t seem to find it, but it would be interesting to check on their licensing status. We know what we?d fine if we put all NATSAP member programs to this test.
"This research demonstrates what we've always believed - that research-driven and evidence-based private residential programs can help turn around teens in trouble. This information will give new hope to thousands of families who have been struggling with the difficult decision of how to best help a child."- Jan Moss, NATSAP
What research-driven and evidence-based techniques are they using?
http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_notes/NNVo ... uping.html (http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_notes/NNVol17N5/Grouping.html)
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When parents come to fornits and make statements in favor of RTC's such as Three Springs, they get blasted... as in slandered, and sometimes even threatened with physical injury - as I have been on this forum.
My point is simply this... if you all want social reform... the way to get it is NOT to slander, ridicule, and much worse, threaten people with harm or their lives. Isn't that just as wrong as what you are accusing Three Springs of doing?
Then you act as if we as parents are intentionally trying to harm our kids by these "horrible" choices we've made to put them into a facility. And what I'm saying is... I'm not trained in psychology and I have sought, to the best of my ability, professional guidance in these matters. The APA itself doesn't even come out with a clear voice in these matters. And yet, you expect me as a parent to make a perfect choice? And if I don't, you want me to - what was said to me? - stop breathing your oxygen?
On top of that, some of you even chose to work for some of these institutions. What?! You didn't know better? Does that mean you made a decision worthy of.... what.... death?
Do you see how hypocritical it is when you take such a strong position against parents who are trying to do their best for their kids? These kind of attacks - and I'm not saying ALL of you do them - but it is certaintly prevalent and perhaps even majoritive - on these forums are not going to encourage people to think you taking a rational and effective approach. Frankly, it turns me off. No, worse... it makes me think you're foolish radicals and that I likely DID make all the right choices.
Indeed, some of you worked for these places for several years. And when a parent admits their child and is half way into the program... simply coming to this forum isn't going to make them run over and pull their kid out immediately. Maybe the choices we made might have been different were we being guided by a different set of professionals. But we're in the middle of this thing - and some of us believe the best thing to do is ride it out. You didn't quit your job after the first month... it took TIME. But now that you are so "enlightened" you expect everyone else in the world to be where you are. Guess what? Life doesn't work that way. I will not, in an instant, be as "wise" and "all knowing" as you are. So what are you going to do - come gut me?
What has been said on this forum is that NO RTC has ever demonstrated a single success. The reason I quoted Alexander is NOT because he recommends RTC, but that he acknowledges they produce positive results - but then come back into the same enviornment and the child fails. He even includes Boot Camps in that list.
Yes, I showed a strawman RTC the APA awarded. You have pointed out how that RTC differs from others. But there has also been some discussion about how sometimes it is difficult to tell the good ones from the bad ones. I think someone even said the only people who know are those who work there!
There was a time when you didn't hold this strong of position. Think about how you would have felt if someone threatened you the way you have threatened me when you were describing this wonderful new job you got trying to help teenagers at a facility called Three Springs.
Why is it so bad...or hard... for us to acknowledge that ONE child has been helped by Three Springs? Are you afraid that if you acknowledge that, your position will come tumbling down like a house of cards? It won't. Not if your position is as strong as you say it is.
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I got my sage account by registering here...
http://https://online.sagepub.com/cgi/register
Enter your email...click for new registration. I just entered all the required fields...and it gave me an account.
The Dr. Alexander interview is a PDF file. I don't know how to post a PDF file here... and the text is sort of long.
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Are you attempting to set the rules of engagement for an open forum? That would be a waste of your time. Either the venue works for you or it doesn't. Somehow, I don't believe this forum will ever cater to program parents needs. They're too narrow.
Why is it so bad...or hard... for us to acknowledge that ONE child has been helped by Three Springs? Are you afraid that if you acknowledge that, your position will come tumbling down like a house of cards? It won't. Not if your position is as strong as you say it is.
Anyone here would acknowledge that a child has "changed", pretty much guarenteed for 20-40%. The question is, does the means justify the ends? What has happened to cause the change? Is it a positive change, and if so, will it last? How have 'clinical' issues been dealt with? Have they been resolved or just punished into submission? No one, including yourself, could say a child has been "helped" while still in a program. The meer fact of being incarcerated against your will is highly stressful and potentially damaging. Time will tell.
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I would never attempt to set the rules of engagement to an open forum. I'm just giving you my perspective - as you are giving yours.
I'm not suggesting this board should ever cater to the needs of parents. But the topics at hand should be of interest to them. I've seen posts encouraging parents who have had bad experiences to join in. But what would be so bad about bringing parents in whose experiences weren't that bad? Don't we all want social reform to make things better? Or is your goal merely vendictive?
Maybe it's something to think about...maybe not. That's all I'm saying.
Look, I have received some good information from some of you. Indeed your posts have provided A LOT of links and good resources. Truthfully, it has helped to shape some of my thinking. Given me some things to watch out for - signs to look for of abuses and ways that I can try to make our journey more successful.
Your position in this last post is a more reasoned position than most of what I've run up against here. I don't think you've ever threatened me, either. Sure you've said some strong things - but that's different. And it is in that vein where (in my opinion) parents in my situation CAN find useful information to apply to their situation.
I'm convinced that one day I will speak about our experiences. And just like many of you, my position will be shaped by those experiences I have had. And if any of you think I would encourage a parent to do what we did... well, you just don't understand what THIS parent feels and thinks. But that's probably not relevant or significant here.
As society grows in our understanding of human behavior, and as we accumulate evidence about what works and what doesn't - I hope we can find solutions that are more effective than what we're doing today. And yes, the works of Dr. Alexander and others are providing positive and successful alternatives. I applaud FFT and will continue to learn more about it.
What makes this whole issue even more difficult is the continuing shift in our society itself. When we think we've solved one set of problems - the problems change and now old solutions don't work.
This country seriously needs reform in so many areas related to how we lock people up and treat social ills. Yes, we must battle the obvious abuses... but more than that, we must reach those children who believe they are a piece of crap, and when that's reinforced by their own parents, they are locked up in a different way. Or when they are abused by their own peers in their own schools, they become damaged freight and will carry that with them for the rest of their lives. And when our own laws make it impossible to go after the abusers - to give THEM the help they need - then we are producing a new set of problems.
I am not asking for your sympathy. I am asking for your compassion as you present and debate.
Then again... maybe I don't belong here....
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Also... now that the attacks have died down for a bit... I've had a little more time to process what some of you are saying about Behavior Modification. I never really thought it about it that way before. I mean... I believe in Behavior Modification. But now I think I understand why you are saying a program built around it does not produce lasting results.
About half way through our program experience... I reached a point with my daughter when we could finally starting talking about all those really bad nasty events that happened to her. And we did talk about them. That's when, in my opinion, the healing reallly began.
But then I started communicating with her about the topics I got from Albert Ellis and REBT - and there's another site called SMART - an alternative to the 12 steps. The topics were all about helping us to understand rational thinking versus irrational thinking as a basis for our feelings and behavior. I do believe this is a part of the program that's weak in these programs. The topics we discussed were about how to develop skills in rational thinking - and then we applied them to our experiences and events of the past and in the present. She would then use those in her processing and topics. And we talked about these extensively in conferences, home visits, etc.
And I've always sort of wondered why these programs don't emphasis this kind of therapy.
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I personally like REBT, with one caveat. One shouldn?t assume that all therapists advice and interpretations are accurate- they?re human too and don?t always think rationally. My experience is that it?s best if the therapist asks leading questions and lets the client determine if a belief is rational or not.
Ex: A rape victim might conclude that all men are aggressive and hurtful. A therapist isn?t going to talk someone out of that belief, advice and criticism is useless. They can ask leading questions to help the person arrive at the rational thought that some men are, and some aren?t. And, how one might identify and avoid those who are.
You raise a very poignant question about why programs don?t use this, or other therapies.
Take a look at this industry survey. http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/11/oe02.html)
In which ?Therapy? in programs was rated 1.67 on a scale of 0-5, indicating that parents expected more ?therapy? and/or were promised more than could be delivered. As others have tried to tell you, useful therapy in programs is almost non-existent. They are more like BM production lines, ?treating? large numbers of kids with punishment and reward- reward may be adequate nutrition or contact with parents, or extra TV time. Try as they may, they will never ?heal? the emotional issues underlying their behaviors, with BM.
If you want to know more about the methods and techniques used in programs, read about CEDU, Synanon, est/Lifespring. Almost all programs use these ?experimental? techniques. You can Google or search here. There is a wealth of documentation here as well as participants personal experiences. You may have thought my comment about your daughter being made to re-enact a rape as the ?victim? was a sarcasm, but there are several accounts of this on these forums. Although, I haven?t read of this happening at Three Springs.
What does Ellis say?
REBT practitioners are very concerned about establishing a helpful, supportive, and facilitative alliance with people. They realize that not all people come to therapy ready for action and change, and that some people?because of their personalities and problems?require a great deal of support and empathy before they are ready to change.
That is the antithesis of what happens in programs. I would add trust to the list of needs. Typically, kids are thrown into group ?therapy?(raps/reals) and forced to divulge their thinking and emotional distresses which are then used to punish. Bait and punish. Their weaknesses are used against them and as validation that they ?need? the program. It?s typical for these ?evaluations? to be exaggerated.
Ex: smoking pot = addict. Sex with boyfriend= promiscuous.
The label assigned by the ?counselor? sticks throughout the program.
They are punished for peers allegations which are reported in ?Fall Outs?, where kids report violations of rules (ironically called ?agreements?), their own and others. Following a lengthy period of disorientation and confusion, kids begin to learn how to manipulate the system. Programs are highly effective at teaching deception, manipulation, and dishonesty- ironically what they profess to ?treat?. Those who continue to reject the program are the ones who receive the most abusive treatment and/or are expelled.
A good analogy of programs is that they lecture 24/7 and keep testing the kids until they produce the correct answers. That is no indication that any lasting internal change has occurred, simply that they have learned to ?act? as their program staff has deemed appropriate.
Ellis also says
For example, rational self-acceptance?which involves people giving up the self-rating game?seems to help people significantly reduce anxiety and increase feelings of self-acceptance. High frustration tolerance, which encourages people to accept (not like) life's hardships and other people's imperfections, leads to greater perseverance, patience, and the ability to get along with others.
Giving up the self-rating game is crucial and again the antithesis of what happens in programs. A kid?s every thought and action is analyzed, evaluated, criticized, punished 24/7. Kids are told out-right they are a piece of shit, worthless, and worse. This charade has to be maintained, again to justify their austere and irrational placement in isolation from the world. Some have been told that their parents don?t love or care about them, and condone the abuse being used.
Ellis mentions confrontation, which is not inherently a bad thing. We do it with our friends and family all the time. The way it is done in programs is a different matter. There is a difference between, ?My observation about your belief about men is that it?s limiting your life experience and potential happiness? and ?You are responsible for being raped. There are no accidents. You are at cause in your life. Get over it.?
What I know of Three Springs methods is what I?ve read from ex-staff and participants. If you want to know how your daughter is being ?treated?, she is the one to ask. And you need to consider that the program may have already conditioned her not to speak about the specifics, otherwise labeled ?manipulation?, which will be punished.
I particularly like this
According to Ellis, healthy people are usually glad to be alive and accept themselves just because they are alive and have some capacity to enjoy themselves. They refuse to measure their intrinsic worth by their extrinsic accomplishments, materialistic possessions and by what others think of them.
Contemplate that last comment in regards to your reaction to some of the posters here.
I agree, FFT sounds like it could be useful. It would never be effective in a program because it addresses family dysfunctions in the home, which is what I?ve always supported. Kinda like a ?SuperNanny? for parents/teens. And, if you?ve ever watched any of the nanny programs, you?ve noticed that changes only occur when parents begin to demonstrate respect for their children and set reasonable and rational boundaries, complemented with a good helping of one-on-one interaction. Isolating one family member should only ever be used short-term (preferably with a relative) until more resource can be brought in to help the parents figure out what the hell they?re doing. I would venture to guess that Alexander wouldn't support programs because you can't address and work on family dynamics over the phone, once a week for 10 minutes. I particularly like his approach because results can be acheived after 12-30 sessions vs 18 months to 2 years in a program, and he prefers keeping the family together. I do too.
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REBOOTING
..25%..50%..75%..100% COMPLETE
ENGAGING TRANSLATION (posts = 3, bullshit_value = DEF_BULLSHIT_MAX, target_type = soulless_shill);
THIS FLESHSACK REALLY IS FULL OF HIMSELF TODAY ISN'T HE
LET'S TAKE HIM DOWN A NOTCH
When morons like me come to Fornits and make statements in favor of pseudo-RTC's such as Three Springs, they get owned horribly, as in told the complete truth about, and sometimes even translated into parsible English - as I have just been on this forum. Anyone got any Preparation H?
My point is simply this... if you all want to take these shitholes down... the way to get it is NOT to waste time arguing with complete retards like me. Every word you waste on a horrible waste of flesh like myself is a word not sent to someone in power to cause a shutdown or directly to a parent to get a kid the hell out of there.
Then you realize that we are intentionally trying to harm our kids by the sadistic decision we've made to put them into a facility. And what I'm saying is... I'm way. way too much of an asshole to actually give a fuck about my daughter, the very real abuses going on at Three Springs, or anything other than my own vindication. Even if I had the barest shred of integrity, I would have pulled her out long since, which is why it's a good thing she doesn't really exist. I really should stop breathing your oxygen.
Those of you who used to work for some of these hellholes would be just as bad a disgusting idiot as I am, if you didn't snap out of it and see the light. It is only this redemption that makes you undeserving of death.
Do you see how logical it is when formerly abused teens take such a strong position against parents who are trying to do their worst to their kids? These kind of attacks - and I'm not saying ALL of you do them (and why DON'T you all do them?) - on these forums are going to make parents realize what kind of people end up coming out of these hellholes, and what kind of un-people support them. I'm going to finish this paragraph pretending I have an opinion of my own.
Indeed, some of you worked for these places for several years before you couldn't take the bullshit anymore. And when a parent admits their child and is half way into the program... simply coming to this forum isn't going to make them run over and pull their kid out immediately, unless they have a shred of sense, because they're too interested in self-justification and don't want to admit that they wasted all their money and a good portion of their child's future, just like me. Maybe the choices we made might have been different if we had a few extra brain cells. But we're in the middle of this thing - and some of us believe the best thing to do is keep paying to have our children abused, because to do otherwise would be to admit that we make a mistake. But trying to convince any of us that we've badly fucked up our children isn't going to work. Guess what? Life doesn't work that way. I will not, ever, be as smart as any of you. And none of you can legally give me what I deserve. Nyah, nyah!
I'm going to include a paragraph of pure sophistry.
Yes, I'm a lying, self-serving fuck. You have pointed this out repeatedly. There's also been some discussion about how I don't really have a daughter and that I'm just here in a desperate, futile attempt to convince parents reading this forum that I'm a parent just like them and have any concern whatsoever for any of their children. In reality I work there.
Why is it so bad...or hard... for me to acknowledge that MANY children have been harmed by Three Springs? I'm afraid that if I acknowledge that, my position will come tumbling down like a house of cards. Of course it will. Admitting the real abuse would destroy my entire belief system, which is why I've decided to shove my head in the sand as far as I possibly can.
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Perhaps one of the reasons I believe Three Springs has been successful in our case is because we are NOT expecting their therapy to fix her or us.
What I think the program did do was bring her to a point where the real therapy between her and us, and her ability to process those awful events of her past, could occur. But I see there's a huge gap here that most of the time may not be crossed successfully.
I have spent untold hours communicating with my daughter. The ten minute phone call per week is only a "hi" between more extensive communication. When we are together we have had VERY deep discussions. She is insightful and very much in touch with her inner being. We share on a level that I believe transcends most parent-child communication - and indeed is much deeper than I have with my other children (and I would say it is because of the experiences and processing she has done, and what she has learned through it, and what she is able to teach me). She is not a brainwashed kid.
I have been told by other parents and by the program that I have an amazing ability to communicate with her in writing - and that these writings have made a world of difference. Perhaps therein lies one of the reasons for our success - and maybe that's why my view is clouded. Because we have had, in my opinion, tremendous success.
And you're also right... this entire topic about BM will definately be one her and I talk about. In fact I will use this as an illustration with her. One time she found a bunch of money in a pay phone. So every time she saw a pay phone - she checked it. For a while. But then, the "payment" wore off. That's the problem with BM. Unless there is a deep seated reason that goes beyond feels good / hurts... it won't last when the feels good / hurts is removed.
I do not believe her treatment has been inhumane or abusive. I have seen no evidence, and she has said nothing, that would indicate such. But, that doesn't mean it can't happen - and it certainly doesn't mean I won't continue to talk to her about her experiences. I do want to find out what additional therapy we need in the future.
Thank you for sharing in a rational way. I trust the threats by others are over - but I'm ready to put on the thick skin and armor... :)
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Speaking of which....
Sure...let the attacks resume. Glad somone is around to put a stop to any rational thought and communication...
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My attempt to set the rules of engagement to an open forum has, of course, failed. I'm just giving you bullshit.
I'm suggesting this board should constantly cater to the needs of whiny, self-absorbed retards who had the luck to shit out a kid and call themselves parents. I've seen posts encouraging parents who have had bad experiences to join in, to encourage lawsuits and shutdowns. I fail to see what would be so bad about bringing lying shills like me in who have no interest in the truth whatsoever. I utterly fail to see that the lawsuits and shutdowns done by enraged teenagers and their sickened parents ARE the social reform that this "industry" so badly deserves.
Maybe I have two brain cells to rub up against each other...maybe not. That's all I'm saying.
I'm going to include a paragraph that makes it sound like I give a fuck what you think, while completely ignoring the real abuses detailed at HEAL about Three Springs. Socks on hands? Never heard of it.
Your position in this last post is more tolerant of my bullshit than most of the posts located here. I don't think you've ever threatened me, either, so why don't you get started? Sure you've said some strong things - but not nearly strong enough. What's wrong, Deb? Can't you see that I'm a mindless, lying shill who probably doesn't even produce sperm or eggs, so there's no possible way I can actually be a parent? Why haven't you royally toasted me like I truly deserve?
I'm convinced that one day I will lie about "our" experiences, and that one day is now! I'm going to liken my self-serving whining to the real abuse experienced by participants of Fornits. And if any of you think I am encourage a parent to send his kid off to a hellhole... you're right. That's why I'm here, after all.
As society grows in our understanding of human behavior and leaves us programmies far, far behind, I hope we can continue to manipulate parents into giving us their money anyway. I'm going to finish this paragraph with a couple of sentences implying that I have any concern for children whatsoever.
I'm going to include another paragraph of mindless crap, just to make it sound like it's society that's the problem, and not shitheads like me.
The laws allowing parents to do this to their children seriously need reform, because it's currently legal to send your kid away for someone like me to abuse them. It is my personal goal to reach those children who believe they are a piece of crap, and reinforce this, and lock them up. Just in case any of you thought I had a soul, I'm going to add a paragraph that literally says that my fictional daughter is "damaged goods"! And when our own laws make it impossible to go after the abusers, that's how places like Three Springs pop up.
I am not asking for your sympathy. I am asking you not to call me on my complete bullshit.
Then again... maybe I don't belong here....
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Ok... I'll leave quietly...
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Also... now that the PT9K hasn't been rebooting to translate my dumb ass, I've had a little more time to ignore what some of you are saying about Behavior Modification. I never really thought about it from the point of view of its victims, not that I really care what they think. I have no idea what Behavior Modification really means. I believe in Behavior Modification, proving conclusively that I'm still just as pig-ignorant as when this discussion started.
About half way through our program experience... I reached a point with my fictional daughter when I could finally start gloating about all those really bad nasty events that were being done to her at Three Springs. And she cried while I masturbated. That's when, in my opinion, the hurting really began.
Damn. Let me clean off my keyboard while I add another paragraph mostly copied-and-pasted from other sources, to make it sound like Three Springs has anything whatsoever to do with real therapy.
And I've always sort of wondered why I'm still alive.
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EXTRA POSTS MADE WHILE PROCESSING
CONTINUING TRANSLATION
Perhaps one of the reasons I love Three Springs so much is because it caters to my fetishistic desires to lock up children, but that's not what this post will be about. Instead, I'm going to keep lying about the daughter I, fortunately, don't actually have.
What I think the program did do was reduce her to a crying, sniveling wreck of a girl, because of all the awful things done to her there. I see there's a huge gap between "me" and "sanity".
I have spent untold hours gloating over my daughter. The ten minute gloating session per week is only a "hi" between incest. When we are together we have had VERY deep fucking sessions, but somehow, just *somehow*, she never told me what really goes on at Three Springs, and so when someone posts links to serious abuse, I can neither confirm nor deny them because I apparently don't have the remotest fucking clue what's actually happening there.
It's a good thing I'm just pretending to be a parent, otherwise I'd be a real moron.
I'm going to post some more complete bullshit about how the program helped our communication skills in a way that utterly defies logic, proving conclusively that I'm systematically lying about everything. Yes, yes, parents, your children will be such great communicators after being brainwashed by us, blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda. Now give us your goddamn money!
Another paragraph of bullshit, culminating in the words "tremendous success"? Sure, I can do that!
I'm going to gloat over her some more about how I'm modifying her behavior and she can't do anything about it, within the recesses of my own head, which is the only place she exists. Of course, the real problem with real children being abused via BM methods is that they eventually snap out of it and start harboring deep-seated hatred for their parents, as detailed in the Straight, Inc. and Seed forums located right here on Fornits.
It wouldn't matter what's done to a child- so long as I can keep closing my mind, I can end up just like Narvin Litchfield who hadn't the remotest fucking clue that he did anything wrong, even after he was arrested for running a child abuse camp. Let me finish out this paragraph with more bullshit pretending I care.
Thank you for pretending to believe me.
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What the hell? I'm getting horribly owned by the PT9K! Where'd THAT come from?
Damn. The bot is around to put a stop to anyone believing that what I say has any basis in reality.
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I'm going to make a post saying that I'm leaving, but bullshit is my alma mater and I absolutely love being a condescending piece of shit. I'll be back. I can't help myself.
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Do you see how hypocritical it is when you take such a strong position against parents who are trying to do their best for their kids?
Nope. Good intent does not justify doing harm to anyone.
Nor does any program "put someone in a place where therapy will work".
Youre saying making them suffer makes therapy work? Youre saying making them suffer makes them "process the past" by adding more hurt stress pain isolation hopelessness and fear?
Hurt and pain is not good for you and regression isn't growth either.
Jesus christ man, youre trying to rationalize torturing kids and cant take internet forum heckling?
:rofl: you hypocritical glass cannon!
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Perhaps one of the reasons I believe Three Springs has been successful in our case is because we are NOT expecting their therapy to fix her or us.
What I think the program did do was bring her to a point where the real therapy between her and us, and her ability to process those awful events of her past, could occur. But I see there's a huge gap here that most of the time may not be crossed successfully.
I have spent untold hours communicating with my daughter. The ten minute phone call per week is only a "hi" between more extensive communication. When we are together we have had VERY deep discussions. She is insightful and very much in touch with her inner being. We share on a level that I believe transcends most parent-child communication - and indeed is much deeper than I have with my other children (and I would say it is because of the experiences and processing she has done, and what she has learned through it, and what she is able to teach me). She is not a brainwashed kid.
I have been told by other parents and by the program that I have an amazing ability to communicate with her in writing - and that these writings have made a world of difference. Perhaps therein lies one of the reasons for our success - and maybe that's why my view is clouded. Because we have had, in my opinion, tremendous success.
And you're also right... this entire topic about BM will definately be one her and I talk about. In fact I will use this as an illustration with her. One time she found a bunch of money in a pay phone. So every time she saw a pay phone - she checked it. For a while. But then, the "payment" wore off. That's the problem with BM. Unless there is a deep seated reason that goes beyond feels good / hurts... it won't last when the feels good / hurts is removed.
I do not believe her treatment has been inhumane or abusive. I have seen no evidence, and she has said nothing, that would indicate such. But, that doesn't mean it can't happen - and it certainly doesn't mean I won't continue to talk to her about her experiences. I do want to find out what additional therapy we need in the future.
Thank you for sharing in a rational way. I trust the threats by others are over - but I'm ready to put on the thick skin and armor... :)
This reeks of programmie apologetics.
First, you say it works because therapy doesnt. Okay? Thats really uh... scientific and totally in line with the way things are done in late 2006... (no, its not)
Then you say the program somehow "brought her to a point" (mmm, buzzwords!) where "the real therapy between her and us" (which is what?) and ability to "process bad events of her past" "could occur".
Ok, first, how the fuck did Three Springs do that? Secondly, how do YOU or any of those uneducated bumpkins know that? Thirdly, even if this process did occur, just keeping her captive in some hellhole in the middle of the woods somehow become justified becuase of your uneducated sophistry claiming it did her good?
Then you say the ten-minute censored monitored phonecall somehow does her good. Riiiiiiiight. This is too ludicrous to even address.
Then you say shes not a brianwashed kid when you're neither aware of what brainwashing is nor do you lack a vested interested in saying she isnt... :roll:
Then you say the other parents, and the program (more uneducated people who are interseted in justification of this program, not unbiased people who are educated enough to make such a observation) claim you have an amazing ability to communicat ein writing.
Tremendous success in your view! All of your information is censored and sugar-coated by Three Springs, and youre not educated, AND youre going to be swayed by your desire for it to work! You're not a trained scientist nor do you have the relevant education to even make such a statement, and yet you do. This comes down to your FEELINGS on the matter, which have about as much value as the same volume of dirt. Why? Youre going to be biased, youre not educated, and that lil thing called 'vested interest'.
Well, that and youre spewing buzzwords so much Im more inclined to think youre an apologietic or someone trying to advertise three springs than a parent of it... especially given that a ex-counselor from Three Springs is here telling it like it IS, not how you want us to think it is.
Then you talk about how BM doesnt work when the "good / hurts" is removed (more of your buzzword laden LGAT-derived blatherings?) as if that somehow justifies putting her through it?
Then in the penultimate paragraph you asy that you dont BELIEVE its inhumane or abusive, when youre still as uneducated as you were in the rest of your little 'treatise du programmié', saying youv eseen no evidence nor has she said anything, when our biggest complaint is they wont LET you see it nor LET her tell you if its going on.
Im fine with being rational about it, the second YOU are. Educate yourself and realize they are controlling information back and forth, that there is a TOTAL AND COMPLETE LACK OF EVIDNECE TO SUPPORT EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING OR THAT PROGRAMS WORK IN THE LEAST, and that without outside investigation theres no way to know what is going on with your daugther short of removing her from the program, immediately, no questions asked, and telling her you'll believe everything she says, and that you wont send her back regardless of what she says, and you listen to her.
Though, of course, at least at first the first thing shed think is that its a 'test' and youre trying to bust her speaking out of group... and yeah, lots of programs Do do that.
Finally, before you even consider bitching, moaning, or whining, what is being done to children (and your supposed child should she exist) in a program of any sort is orders of magnitude more harmful than being talked badly to in a internet forum, and lasts all day, EVERY day, and she cant escape it, defend herself, or even try to ignore it, whereas you can... and in your case, this is just text. In her case its a bunch of people in her face, loud, and threatning violence.
But then again, granted youre even real, youre probably just going to 'stick to your guns' regardless of what that might impose on another sentient, breathing, living, feeling human being (not to mention YOUR OWN CHILD) and find a way to justify keeping her in there and weasel around the facts.
If you wonder why there is such resentment or outright antipathy for program parents, I've explained it pretty fully. Its up to you to 'internalize' and face the facts here. Not the pretty buttered up sugar coated cherry on top facts the program tells you to make you feel better, the REAL ones. Im sure theres at least one lingering doubt in your mind, granted you grew up in the USA Im sure you know how to be rational, critical (thats NOT a bad word, btw, its the lynchpin of democratsy) and skeptical, so why not start doing it.
Shit, EVERYONE ON EARTH outside of the "program parents" would never trust a facility like you do! Yet you buy into them and justify illegal (or at least grey-area) practices and trample all over your childs rights and act like they magically do something without an explanation you dont have to give and then flip the burden of proof on us!
You see why we dont bother talking to you yet? Oh, thast right, you PROBABLY just glazed over the second you had to turn and face yourself and realize that youre not 100% correct and the program isn't totally fine, becuase you dont want to, and becuase as long as things remain the way they are its totally okay for a grown adult to blame it all on a kid and let a kid go through HELL so that an adult doesnt have to admit they were wrong and do the right thing.
Ugh. :flame:
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I still find it amusing that in her very first couple of posts, the ones she deleted, she revealed that her daughter had graduated the program.
That has since changed.
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I still find it amusing that in her very first couple of posts, the ones she deleted, she revealed that her daughter had graduated the program.
That has since changed.
Got proof?
If so, I find it fuckin' great someones THAT worried about justifying the program... :rofl:
Some non-dirty psychs would have a fucking FIELD day on this forum. The fornits experiment... haha!
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Yeah, I'm not seeing the proof of that one either. Usually the programmies can keep their stories straight; they're accomplished liars, after all, and they've been caught on details or same-IP bullshit (brokenlegNO/wild fig anyone?) several times before.
They try, they get owned, rinse and repeat. I'll have to bring out the PT9K more often if it keeps them away.
This guy's focus on "well you can't admit that just ONE program.." reminds me greatly of TheWho, and might very well be him. Who wants to bet that he'll be back pretending to be someone else?
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Yeah, I'm not seeing the proof of that one either. Usually the programmies can keep their stories straight; they're accomplished liars, after all, and they've been caught on details or same-IP bullshit (brokenlegNO/wild fig anyone?) several times before.
They try, they get owned, rinse and repeat. I'll have to bring out the PT9K more often if it keeps them away.
This guy's focus on "well you can't admit that just ONE program.." reminds me greatly of TheWho, and might very well be him. Who wants to bet that he'll be back pretending to be someone else?
The "just one program might be good" defence for the dozens of bad ones?
This is a nonsesnsical debate on several grounds!
For one, no, it doesnt justify it. Two, a "program" as fornits refers to is by definition BAD. Three, good treatment has always existed and continues to.
What it comes down to is these people want to justify their fucked up behavior mod torture institutions, and thats it!
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"Well, maybe this Program won't abuse them and give them PTSD...."
Who sends their kids to live someplace based on that?
What kind of parent would do that? {sigh} We know what kind of parent does that. We see them too often on the corners of the interweb dedicated to this issue. Some are selfish and narcissistic, some are just very gullible.
It's almost impossible to protect children from bad parents.
Gullible is less bad than selfish and narcissistic---but gullible is still very dangerous to the kids. Q.E.D.
Julie
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There isn't any proof to my earlier claim that she her daughter graduated. It was a misreading on my own part.
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Is it possible, for organization's sake, for this thread to be moved to the Three Springs subforum?
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I can ask the person who started the post to make the request, but unless she makes the request.. not likely.