Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Serpico on January 10, 2003, 04:12:00 PM

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Serpico on January 10, 2003, 04:12:00 PM

The international Survivors Action Committee has a filed a formal complaint with the United Nations against Ambassador Mel Sembler , Straight Incorporate its agents and Straight-like programs

View the complaint at : http://www.straightincorporated.com (http://www.straightincorporated.com)  and click on online documents.

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: FueLaw on January 13, 2003, 01:28:00 PM

From a legal standpoint what you call a "complaint" is absolutely worthless. Read the requirements or standards for filing a complaint and read the trash you posted and notice the difference.

A Suggestion :  Stick to exposing the programs still in existence and helping kids that need it immediately. All of this complaints, documents ect... is so legally worthless it is a real waste of time.

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: marika708 on January 13, 2003, 04:53:00 PM

Are you an expert in this field of law?  I read through your previous posts and it seems that you had the experiences that we all share, and at one point the outrage.  Yet, you seem to have nothing supportive to say about any of the efforts to bring these atrocities to light.  Far be it from to tell anyone what is right and wrong, but my impression of these boards is(was) that this is a place to go for support and camaraderie.  Do you have anything positive or supportive to say?

Marika

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Carmel on January 13, 2003, 06:02:00 PM

I am going to get SOOO hated on for saying this, but....here goes.....

I have to be honest and comment on the content of these documents and submissions prepared by this new committee.  I have to say, they do seem to be a bit vague and elusive when it comes to cold hard facts.  Not entirely, mind you, but in my opinion Wes Fagers accumulation of information, statements and even his general presentation of information would be more effective in breaking ground than whats has been presented by the Survivors committee.  I am no lawyer, nor am I an expert in filing official documentation....however, as a professional, I have to say I would be unimpressed with the quality of presentation and the "evidence" that has been chosen to substantiate our claims.  It does in fact, look to me, like a whole boat load of heresay and is overly focused on opinion.  Even in instances where hard evidence is being referenced.  

I applaud the efforts of this committe in making an effort to bring the cause back into the spotlight, no doubt about that.....but in the way of lending credibility to these submissions....I am just not impressed by the presentation, nor do I feel that the information can be taken seriously as presented.  

As I said...the more the merrier when it comes to getting this info into the right hands....but I dont place my hopes on anything coming from it as it stands at this point.

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Serpico on January 13, 2003, 06:50:00 PM

FueLaw,
  Why dont you quit complaining and go download the complaint form from the UN. Which is what we had to do and we had to follow their format.

Our you could set your alarm for three am and call over to the UN and talk to them and pay for the call like we did.

But until you are willing to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.. please....

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: ClayL on January 14, 2003, 09:32:00 AM

I used to like this board so much better when it was people, ex-clients of straight, not VICTIMS, who were posting and looking for help with their own personal issues; most likely caused or aggravated by straight. FueLaw is correct, there is nothing we can do about any of the abuse that occurred 20+ years ago. Complaining about it, filing complaints, trying for law suits only looks like a few disgruntled people with an axe to grind. This is not what I am here for. I do not like the politicizing of an issue that has caused so many of US such great pain. I do not like my participation here being taken as support to, hell, I don't know what y'all are trying to do.

Have y'all noticed there aren't many new poster's anymore? Have y'all noticed many persons with great insight and ability have stopped posting? Have y'all noticed that, out of the few who still post, there are now two groups? Those with the axe and those of the loyal opposition.

Now, that being said, FueLaw's comments will win no diplomacy awards. The reaction to all FueLaw's comments with vitriol seems just as excessive. As far as I'm concerned, and I know I am not alone, I would like to see this board used for trying to help ourselves and being able to talk with others who understand where I am coming from.

Me, personally, I do not wish my name to be dragged into what I consider a very public self destruction.

Lastly, if I was on the "committee" I would give some serious thought before posting supossed un-prosecuted crimes of people and their names on the internet. Damaging a private persons reputation like this can and most likely will, lead to much grief.

Clay

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Serpico on January 14, 2003, 11:01:00 AM

Clay, I understand your point of view but I have but one question for you.

I wonder if the children being tortured and held against their will, sitting on front row RIGHT NOW .. as you sit in your comfort zone would agree that it is not even worth the effort . No offense but you sir , if you hold that belief are as guilty as STRAIGHT because you CHOOSE to convince yourself that those children dont matter, they are not worth the effort . Much like Straight who convinced everyone that the childrens rights , feelings and the damage done to them DOESNT MATTER.
WE FOR ONE CARE>>>> WE CARE ABOUT THE KIDS ON FRONT ROW RIGHT NOW , AND WE CARE ENOUGH TO TRY AND DO SOMETHING TO SAVE THEM...

I am sorry you dont get to talk to as many people. THOSE KIDS ON FRONT NOW CANT EVEN EAT A MEAL, OR CALL THEIR PARENTS FOR HELP.
Sorry but I call it like i see it.

Serp

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: ClayL on January 14, 2003, 11:19:00 AM

Nice argument, complete with silpery slope and full of ad hominem. Please explain to me the connection for attacking people who were participants in this practice 20+ years ago and the institutions that are complicit in these practices today.

I espicially liked the, "...if you hold that belief are as guilty as STRAIGHT because you CHOOSE to convince yourself that those children dont matter they are not worth the effort." You might as well have added the, "YOU KNOW WHAT! YOU'RE NOTHING BUT A FUCKING DRAIN! ALL YOU'RE DOING IS TAKING FROM THE GROUP! GOD! I CAN'T BELIEVE THE SELFISHNESS...." Now, where have I heard that before?

Whatever....

I am glad y'all care about the kids on "front row" right now, I do also. I only disagree, however, on the viability on attacking persons who were involved in something decades old.

CL

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Anonymous on January 14, 2003, 01:03:00 PM

So was it a waste of time to expose Trent Lott for remarks he made in the past?  Guess not, the media was all over it, and now look at what happened.   Don't you think it's possible to have an independent investigation of the Semblers?  Don't you think that the evidence of abuse should be made public? Do you actually want Sembler as a representative of the United States as Ambassador?  Don't you think the foreign relations committee would like to know they were lied to? For the life of me I can't understand why you only attack. If your an attorney then why don't you help more.  Why don't you do an investigation instead of trample on people just trying to make a difference.  I would really like to see your liscense because I doubt your an attorney.  If in fact you are, I want to meet you personally and discuss a few things.  Please post your license if your a real attorney.  

 
 :exclaim:  :exclaim:  :exclaim:  :exclaim:

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: FueLaw on January 14, 2003, 01:11:00 PM

Excellent post Clay. The only thing I am trying to point out is that there is nothing you can legally do to the scum bags from Straight or the Seed due to the time that has elapsed.  I also wanted to point out to those who had questions that any affidavits they signed and submitted were legally worthless and the people could find themselves being involved in a situation that would rather avoid.

I agree with anyone who wants to try to help kids in similar type programs today.  I also believe that is where most of the energy should be directed.

I will have more to say about the United Nations stuff later but for right now lets me just say the complaint filed with the United Nations is legally worthless and bogus.  :wave:

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: str8isabuse on January 14, 2003, 01:14:00 PM

it doesn't matter how old these crimes are.  THEY WERE SERIOUS CRIMES!  and we are suffering, some of us for 20 years or so, from the abuse we sustained.  i am tortured by the visions of human suffering i saw with my own eyes, and i can't believe it happened in this country that i love so much.  the public needs to know the truth, so we can protect our children.  do you realize that if you died and your children somehow ended up in foster care, they could end up in a program like this?  we HAVE to help these adolescents!!!

don't be selfish!  where is your outrage?  your sense of justice?

some of the atrocities that have come to light regarding world war 2 have brought justice decades later.  it can happen, and it should.  the law should reflect the exceptional nature of straight and its legacy programs.

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: 2dogs on January 14, 2003, 03:42:00 PM

The fact is that there are a lot of us who have sucessfully dealt with our "Straight past" , and those who have yet  to do so. If you could truly see everyones mindset , you would see also that the division of issues also is divided along this same line. We do all share a bond , but we are not all now of the same people.
 Some are angry while others are satisfied with thier efforts to heal. Others are certily left somewhere in the mists.
  Point is that we can't  accept each others ideals because we've evolved in different ways. So much effort is wasted trying to convince each other that OUR opinions are FACT ,  that we forget it is just opinion.
 So before ANYONE gets themselves all upset with another , they ought to consider that  they will not even with a hammer drive home thier point....We are as much the same as we are not..... Witholding my opinion....Joey

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Dragnet on January 14, 2003, 05:22:00 PM

A lot of people aren't posting much right now because they're busy helping. ::cheers::

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Anonymous on January 14, 2003, 05:34:00 PM

Will you post your License number, or something to prove your an attorney?
 :question:  :???:

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Maltese Falcon on January 14, 2003, 05:37:00 PM

Great job yesterday and today Dragnet. ::soapbox::

[ This Message was edited by: Maltese Falcon on 2003-01-14 14:40 ]

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Anonymous on January 14, 2003, 06:02:00 PM

The fact is that there are a lot of us who have sucessfully dealt with our "Straight past" ,


What exactly do you mean buy the above?  What is your definition of success?

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Anonymous on January 14, 2003, 06:28:00 PM

First, you don't have to die in order for your kids to wind up in the Program. Any involvement with law enforcement or failing a drug test can land the whole family in a situation where you have to choose between jail or treatment or even jail with or without treatment. Even an anonymou tip to the DARE cop based on nothing more than malice can do the trick. So life for the typical kid these days is very much like life for a Program sibling 20 years ago; it's always there, hanging over your head, we don't speak it's name lest it hear us! Shhhhhh!

Even adults, especially dark skinned, young, male young adults who wouldn't know which fork to use at a restaurant that uses cloth napkins can find themselves in the same situation. I'm concerned for all of these people as well as my own shiny white butt as much as for the unfortunate few on front row and the several thousand in the custody of WWAS type programs. (I believe these programs are a good deal more brutal than the host homes model, mainly because of the almost weekly reported deaths while in custody...)

Anyway, that's a serious problem that I believe has a lot to do with the fact that our current and past presidents are letting their big campaign contributors write public policy. They're not just mean spirited and greedy, either. I read in these forums recently that Melvin Sembler put his grandson in Pathway Family Center as late as 2001. They're true believers, just like the crusaders and inquisitioners and the Taliban's Ministry of Virtue and Vice. That's why they're so dangerous.

If it were just money, well there are simpler ways to make a whole lot of money. Importing coke and heroin, for instance (like some others of GW and Clinton supporters and point men) But I digress.

Yes, these are truely evil people. But that has less than nothing to do with legal standing for criminal or civil proceedings. I tend to believe FULaw is giving us the straight dish, so to speak, because he's saying just exactly the same thing that every other lawyer has said about it.

There are plenty of things we can do to help get these sadistic lunatics out of public policy. And I think the "team" is doing some of them pretty well. The most important and valuable thing anyone can do, imo, is to get this story into the media from any and every angle that offers. Kudos to everyone who helped get MSNBC interested in asking why Jeb! chose some program for Noelle other than SAFE. We don't know how they came about that, but it went national. Thanks to everyone who helped Radley Balko get his story together. Great work! That has had more impact than you may know. Etc. (there's just too much to list)

But that's all about getting the wackos out of public policy. If you want to talk about shutting down specific programs through lawsuits, we need people with recent experience who are willing to bring suite and/or to testify as witnesses in suites brought by others. Most people will not want to do this. It's not an easy thing to go through. But some people always do and we can help by making it easier for these folks to find each other. Just last August, Jeff Berryman was able to find 3 crucial witness to testify to ther recent experience at Tranquility Bay and the result was one little boy brought home under court order against the will of his &*()$%# father.

From time to time, CPS or other regulatory agencies will actually do something useful. I know they helped me get out of Straight back in `82. If they're interested, if we can get them interested, they still need recent witnesses, not witnessed to what happened over a decade ago.

AI ain't gonna move on this. AI, I do believe, has their hands full with wrongful state executions, kidnapping and death squads in Colombia, rampant prison rape and the like.

One of the most highly effective, low overhead activities that we, the aging former POWs, can engage in is ongoing news hawking and letter writing. Whenever you see any news or promo piece related to the Program, please share it with the rest of us and write to the publisher, editor, broadcaster or whatever. They won't print every letter. But if they get 10 or 100 along the same lines, they'll use one. If these types of ideas keep popping up, some journalist will investigate. These are the things that lead policy makers to change their views. I hate to tell ya'll but your grandma lied. It really is a popularity contest. The only way to get rid of thought reform as treatment is to make it unpopular.

Oh, btw, here's a target to keep an eye out for. Just a few minutes ago, some idiot on the idiot box informed concerned parents of the "signs" that your kid is being bullied in school. See if you can guess what they are. That's right, it wasn't the ganga after all making us act moody, disinterested in school, distant and to change our tastes in clothing and music. It was the bullies!

If you see this story pop up, just send in your comments to the effect that this sounds hauntingly familiar or whatever you feel moved to say about it.

And remember, he who laughs lasts.

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: beckyuga on January 14, 2003, 08:54:00 PM

I aqree 100% with Fue and Clay.  
There really is nothing we can do to those responsible for abuses that we experienced many years ago.  (In my case, 20 years ago.)  And I don't really feel a need to make anyone pay for the things done to me personally.  But I do believe in doing something to close down any program that currently engages in the abuse of children.

Becky

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: 2dogs on January 14, 2003, 11:28:00 PM

My definition in this case would be: Having engaged in a course of thinking , living and taking actions that delivered me from fear , resentment, and anger over having spent 18 months of my mid-teens completely miserable from the time I woke up in the morning , well into my nightmares every night. With the outcome being satisfied with life reguardless of what happened then or is happening now.
   
   I don't like the thought of anyone having to go through what I did , but I sure as shit sleep fine every night anyway.  I did my bit , it sucked , I survived , thats life , I'm busy living it.  I would love to help but I'm not so stupid as not know when something is a big waste of time... and I'm pretty sure most everyone else around these sites isn't willing to have there time wasted either. Look at the stats , they don't lie.  Focus on the possible if you really want to start something. Not to discount what is already going...crawling.....Joey

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Dragnet on January 14, 2003, 11:45:00 PM

Then we're all on the same side here.

On 2003-01-14 17:54:00, beckyuga wrote: "  But I do believe in doing something to close down any program that currently engages in the abuse of children. Becky    "

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Tampa survivor on January 15, 2003, 07:27:00 AM

I just read some of the most intelligent posting I have seen in a while here.
Kuddos to Clay, various anons, and whoever else.  
I sleep fine.  I abhor the current wwasp programs, and use my position as an RN to advocate VOLUNTARY TX where it is called for for kids, adults, or anyone else who needs it.  TX does NOT work unless the treated person desires it.  Self improvement is an excruciating process of guided self evaluation, followed by decision making changes for improvement.
The Semblers and thier ilk do not GET IT.  I can not change them.  I was abused as hell by STRAIGHT, but as Joey said, I sleep just fine, and I eventually worked out most of my program based bugaboos.  
Knowing Miller is a discredited charlatan is grand.  Pinning him to a tree would do no more for me.  Everyone in the bussiness of rehab KNOWS straight was a failure...EXCEPT for those who still advocate coerced TX.  
Present day coercive treatment is what we should fight, as veterans of the same treatment modality we have a unique perspective on it, and therefore, credibility.
Someone said there are less posters now.  Yeah, I agree.  
I think it is more of a mission for me to help todays victims, and guide any who were with us back then and help them through thier awakening when they find this site.  
Bill
St Pete & Atlanta
12/80-12/82

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: DIRTY HARRY on January 15, 2003, 01:31:00 PM

:question:      Harry

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: 2dogs on January 15, 2003, 02:08:00 PM

Just because you were in Straight or on staff does not obligate you to do anything. So grow up and quit trying to make everyone believe this LIE. "Cold feet syndrome" You idiots crack me up.  "I'm not there yet , so it's not ok for anyone else to be there yet either." Sad but yet still very funny...Joey

[ This Message was edited by: 2dogs on 2003-01-16 20:24 ]

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Serpico on January 15, 2003, 06:07:00 PM

Let me see if I can explain a few things since it seems to be such a hot topic. I will do my best but I am sure once I do..


First since everyone is discussing it. Let me throw in my two cents on Fue Law. Hereafter known to me as Fue.

I do not believe you are an attorney.

Why? You ask, well ladies and gentlemen of the jury.

Do you believe that a lawyer would?

1) Have enough time to post here all the time.
2) Is it not odd that he ONLY shows up when the action committee does something to stop the abuse?
3) If he were a survivor and a lawyer and he felt that we could do something a better way, would it not make sense for him to suggest it as a professional would since that it was he claims to be.Would a professional attorney start out his conversations with very limited control and destine. Would a lawyer become almost beside himself at our actions. A lawyer who must remain calm in court and deal only with facts?
4)Where are the facts, has he presented any including his own name EVEN though a few weeks ago HE demanded our names. He even went so far as to say that because (paraphrasing here) we were anonymous our statements lost their crediability. Does that include him as well?
5) Did he specify any legal citing? No, he just said you cant do that. He did not cite Florida statues as we have done in our reports.


I ask you is this truly the behavior of an ATTORNEY.. I think not..
Now that we cleared that up..

Lets talk about this statue of limitations:

Lets talk rape: Here is FL Law on it.. might want to look this up Fue
In addition to the above, several states have no statute of limitations for prosecutions of the most serious forms of sexual assault, regardless of the age of the victim. These include Florida, Indiana, Mississippi, New Jersey, New Mexico and South Dakota .

Now shall we move on ladies and gentleman to this issue of the past?

The question can you prosecute someone for say something like assault and battery committed ten or twenty years ago.
According to the statues. NO.
Could you say charge someone with medical neglect from say fifteen years ago.
According to the statues. No.

Umm, well if we know that, that why would we form a committee now? What could the benefit be, to bringing up stories from ten years ago or even twenty years ago.
In the case of criminal charges from the past, Almost none. That?s even true of civil lawsuits as they have a statue of limitations as well (you taking notes Fue).
So why do it?
Several reasons:
1) You could use the past twenty years to PROVE that this treatment modality does not work..
2)You could further prove since there wasn't one STRAIGHT NOT ONE that wasn't ACCUSED of abuse that this type of treatment ALMOST guarantees abuse. Twenty year history of abuse is a pretty compelling case against a treatment modality wouldn't you agree.
3) Lets suppose that in say 1983 you were tortured in Straight. You were aware when you came out as an adult that it was abuse and you filed a civil action against X staff member and the case went wherever. Now, lets say that twenty years later you realize that it was not ONLY X staff member, but now evidence exsist that proves that the State of Florida facilitated, allowed and condoned the abuse. Facts that were not available then. Well, the appeals court just might think you have a case. Maybe......
4) Now , why else would you build a pattern of abuse. Well, lets see if you wanted to prove that a particular person "knew or should have known" (that?s the civil legal test Fue) of the abuse and you did prove that , then you could also prove that this person condoned it and or chose not to do anything about it. Now, lets see if you knew someone in government office and you found out that they had supported not one year, not five years but TWENTY YEARS of abuse would you not be inclined to make darn sure they hold no place in government. Could that be another reason?

Now lets see what else could you do with twenty years of information ladies and gentleman.

Well, lets say program A is open .... and program B is closed and it closed under allegations of abuse with document after document of medical negligence, kidnapping torture for say over five years. but oddly enough its all the same people . If I came to you and said umm, these are all the same people , think we ought to look into it or perhaps these folks have totally changed. What are the odds that they have changed?

Now what else could we use all these tons of documents spanning twenty years for... umm

Ladies and gentlemen... this woman to your left named BS has her own day in Florida , thats right she has been HONORED for her work with Straight , well here is twenty years of documented abuse, kidnapping , medical neglect and the list goes on . That she (watch this Fue) KNEW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN was taking place , you the jury get to deicide if she keeps her day. What ya think? Yes, or No.

Now lets see what else could we possibly do with all those documents from So many years ago. Umm well lets see if we use those documents,, what if ... lets just say that a person is now working with children. Lets say Miller Newton is working with children (relax he's not). Could we then as our moral and civic duty bring it to the attention of whomever. Of course, we could. Not only that Florida law says we MUST REPORT SUSPECTED ABUSE.

Now, I am not going to divuldge our whole plan here as that would be stupid.
We however do have one, unlike Fue apparently. Who not only doesnt have a plan but has only negative things to say when we do accomplish something.

As for are you emotionally ready to deal with Straight? Some are, and some aren't and for the some that aren't anyone with any compassion at all completely understands that including us.

Now I hope that clears up why, SOME documentation is necessary for over the last twenty years. We also collect ALOT of current or recent documentation.

Our goal is to close ALL abusive rehabs. Period.

Now I am no attorney , and my best guess is nither is fue but we do have one. I am but a paralegal

Hence our teams very chosen responses.

The prosecution rest your honor.

Your friend
Serp..

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Tampa survivor on January 15, 2003, 08:30:00 PM

Ragging on Clay????  One of the more succesfull posters who helped with intelligent, empathetic posts 8 months ago when I was FREAKED by two years of absolute shit I put up with???
WHAT GIVES?
Attacking a man for his thoughts??
Acting as if this board is your bully pulpit???
Mike Sherman told me once that it took time for his anger to settle to a REASONABLE thinking level where effective change in drug policy could be sought by him.....
If you remember....or were here when Hedwigfan and Marnie (former Senior staffers)showed up, I was gnawing at the bit to hang 'em high.  Then I traded a few private emails with them.  I learned that their hell was even greater than mine, as I "never gave in" and they perpetuated the madness.  
Yeah I am proud of that. I resisted, split 5 times and am sure at least one guy who had me as a nuke wishes i never existed.  
Some aren't that strong.  I FORGAVE them.
I WROTE Executive Inferno as a blow off to vent my anger  at the adults.
Here are a few facts that encouraged me to stay out of the "fight"
1)  Wes may be a hero to some, and has been informative to all, but the chinese flag bit turned me off a bit. Personal axes to grind or geopolitical symbols have no place in the "fight"
2)I have represented myself successfully in court more than once and make it a point to know the law.  WE ARE NOT THE ROSEWOOD DESCENDANTS!!!
 As far as anyone like JURIES are concerned, we got what our dope smoking asses deserved. Ever been involved in an illegal drug trial with a jury?  I have.  They can't relate to us.  They usually support the drug war.  
3)Appellate courts don't use juries, they use case law and statute to determine cases.  
4)Rape convictions take EVIDENCE.  In the ER at TGH (Hillsborough county's rape crisis center), an exacting process of incredible detail in used to put together EVIDENCE.  Then the case MIGHT be worthy of proscecution.  My oldcomers $%$% me 20 years ago doesn't get it.  FACT
SAD BUT TRUE.  Ask a proscecuter.  My uncle is an attorney. He said  said it would not make it past an initial screening without witnesses AND multiple victim complaints against the same person this far out in years.  Prove it wasn't consensual.  PROVE it even happened. Forget it
5)  STRaiGHT IS GONE.
6)  STRAIGHTS DESCENDENTS ARE GONE.
7)  LIABILITY IS NOT CARRIED FORWARD TO SUCCESOR CORPORATIONS.  
:cool:The politician angle won't wash either.  Most are gone, and as anyone with a poli-sci degree can tell you, the type of protection deals which OBVIOUSLY protected Straight are not written anywhere.  A 20 year old phone call from a powerfull contributor is impossible to PROVE.
I HATE what the Semblers are.  A shame to their race (Jewish), bastards of the highest kind.  Miller Newton deserves what he got...bad health, neighbors who hate him, and exposure of his wrongs.  
Just because I wish the abusers were paying for it doesn't mean it will happen in court.
9)The treatment modality has been debunked.  The only people who still buy it are foolish parents, and they will send their basket case kids OFFSHORE to places like Traquillity Bay.

Marti, you don't need to rag on the folks who make this board great just because we use logic to pick our fights.
Bill Hadley
St Pete & Atlanta
12/80-12/82

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: FueLaw on January 15, 2003, 09:21:00 PM

Your a pathetic loser !!!!!

Put your money where your mouth or keyboard is. How much you willing to bet on your last post ?

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Dragnet on January 15, 2003, 09:30:00 PM

I'm willing to bet that an actual attorney wouldn't misspell the word "you're."

On 2003-01-15 18:21:00, FueLaw wrote:
"Your a pathetic loser !!!!!

Put your money where your mouth or keyboard is. How much you willing to bet on your last post ? "

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Maltese Falcon on January 15, 2003, 09:35:00 PM

Joey,

We'll ya know what? 20 years went by and I didn't have a clue about Straight or what happened to the principles involved nor cared one bit. One year ago I got a call from my best friend who told me to get on the net and see what people are saying about Straight. I was floored. Upon understanding the depth, breadth, influence these people "the Semblers and associates" have hade and continue to have on AMERICA and our kids I made a conscious decision to do what I can to tell the story.

Joey I sleep fine at night knowing that I live a very exciting life of which this straight stuff is a small part of. I have not been stuck in the past but what frightens me is how people are so willingly turn the other cheek like that's the moral high ground. Maybe the Jews should get over it and close all the museums right? What the heck are they thinking? Why is it important to tell their story? And how ironic that Sembler is or was on the board of ST. Pete and Washington holocaust Museum? Doesn't that bother you as an American? It bothers me that after all the talking that has gone on these boards nothing has been done to really explain in the public eye about these people. They are still there. I believe it is our responsibility to explain this story as best we can. We are obligated to do the best we can in order to make America a better place in which to live. Even though I will be living abroad soon America is my home.

I keep hearing "nothing can be done' As long as you believe that then that will be your reality. However I have learned that "I" can move mountains and I will. I have overcome great odds in my life and have had great ups and downs but I wouldn't trade any of it.

Look, I just want the story to be told and let the chips fall where they may. We all went through hell, but that's not what is important. Action is however because this effects the world we live in now. If everyone just keeps talking and posting nothing will be done, the nay sayers will get their way. Also therapy wise this has been great for me. I don't need therapy however when you come face to face with someone like David Crock like I have numerous times including standing in front of his house with channel 10 news because he refused to talk with me or come to the conference. This helps me deep down. I belive if you were standing next to me you would feel how much you have buried deep down inside. You can't understand this until you face you abusers whom ever they were. I am not a victim of Straight anymore. This delivers me from fear. The fear I have now is that I won't make a difference.

The bottom line is we are all connected through our experiences. God bless all of ya..............However the story of our collective lives and the principles involved needs to be told because these people are "current" in our society!!! They still effect your lives. Ever look at the cost of the Drug war? You continue to be effected by these people and the laws they have passed don't you see. It's not 20 years ago, this is now.

I asked executive director Larry Lasher from the Holocaust Museum for a meeting with Mel Sembler when I was in Italy in August..................guess what? No meeting. We're just a bunch of scum in their minds. But we are not done yet. We re-trenched, refocused, and now we are going forward.

America and her servants are not "a big waste of time"

Sembler is "OUR" representative in Italy!

This can't and won't stand.

United we stand divided we fall.

Take care Joey, Hope you can make it to the conference. Glad to hear your life is going well!! I can't wait to meet all of you in person!!



[ This Message was edited by: Maltese Falcon on 2003-01-15 19:21 ]

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Tampa survivor on January 15, 2003, 09:47:00 PM

Dragnet....
I studied pol-sci and damned near went to law school, but picked a different career altogether.  I have NO doubt whatsoever that I would make a great attorney.
I also spell for absolute shit, and when the brain is firing fast, I couldn't care less about apostropy placement.  That's what secrataries and Word 2000 are for.
Take fuelaws name, feed it into the Bar website, and voilla.
Not so hard eh?
Bill

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Maltese Falcon on January 15, 2003, 09:50:00 PM

"Your a pathetic loser !!!!!"

Did Stetson Law school teach you that?

"Put your money where your mouth or keyboard is. How much you willing to bet on your last post ?"

Now that's a professional statement.

What are you so angry for FUE. What was said that was incorrect by Serpico? You keep dancing around the issue!

ARE YOU AN ATTORNEY? IF SO PROVE IT!

What are you afraid of?





[ This Message was edited by: Maltese Falcon on 2003-01-15 19:19 ]

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Maltese Falcon on January 15, 2003, 10:30:00 PM

This is from the Florida Bar:

 Center For Professionalism
 Creed Of Professionalism

I revere the law, the judicial system, and the legal profession and will at all times in my professional and private lives uphold the dignity and esteem of each.

I will further my profession s devotion to public service and to the public good.

I will strictly adhere to the spirit as well as the letter of my profession s code of ethics, to the extent that the law permits and will at all times be guided by a fundamental sense of honor, integrity, and fair play.

I will not knowingly misstate, distort, or improperly exaggerate any fact or opinion and will not improperly permit my silence or inaction to mislead anyone.

I will conduct myself to assure the just, speedy and inexpensive determination of every action and resolution of every controversy.

I will abstain from all rude, disruptive, disrespectful, and abusive behavior and will at all times act with dignity, decency, and courtesy.

I will respect the time and commitments of others.

I will be diligent and punctual in communicating with others and in fulfilling commitments.

I will exercise independent judgment and will not be governed by a client s ill will or deceit.


My word is my bond.


[ This Message was edited by: Maltese Falcon on 2003-01-15 19:31 ]

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: FueLaw on January 15, 2003, 10:44:00 PM

....and ?

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Maltese Falcon on January 15, 2003, 11:15:00 PM

"I will further my professions devotion to public service and to the public good."

Isn't it in the public good to come forth with the truth regarding the Semblers and associates?

"I will abstain from all rude, disruptive, disrespectful, and abusive behavior and will at all times act with dignity, decency, and courtesy."

You represent yourself as an attorney but regularly insult people and communicate in a fashion that is disrespectful and rude.

"I will respect the time and commitments of others."

Don't you think we are serious and have dedicated much time, money, and resources seeking the truth.  Truth seekers should be held in high esteem don't you think?

And you still didn't answer the question, "are you an attorney?" What's you liscense number or office address?  I want to meet you personally tomorrow!

sunsafety@yahoo.com

send via email if you wish

Just because you do not take an interest in politics, doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
PERICLES (430 BC)

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: ClayL on January 16, 2003, 11:57:00 AM

I must say, I really liked the Cold Feet Syndrone , being winter and cold it took no great leap of intellect to figure my toes are frosty. In a non-literal since, I would say you are well off the mark. I am more than willing to assist my fellow inmates come to terms with the issues arising from Str. After several months with no one speaking to me, only 2-3 hours of sleep and so little food my mother could see my bones sticking out across the open meeting room, I would have done anything to make it stop.

Am I selfish? You bet I am selfish! I will never again debase myself to get some one off my back. I will always do what I think is in my best interest. I will do what I think is right for myself, my family, my career and my friends. I will give money to bums on the street because I have been there. I know they will most likely go get booze or crack, but that's their problem, not mine. I give back to others because it makes me a whole, complete, well rounded person. I am never satisfied with where I am at in life and devour new opportunities and knowledge so I can grow because I want to. In the movie the "Dead Poets Society," they spoke of being dedicated to sucking the marrow from the bones of life; I am that and much more.

You know what? My life is great now, it is fantastic! I am broke, in debt up to my eyeballs, and barely making ends meet. My credit is for shit and I'll be willing to bet I have at least one lean against my house. All this is life! I have one wonderful child, who is truly awesome and another on the way! I have a wife that loves me for who I am, for better and worse. She puts up with all my shit and little pecadillos. A good woman can save your very soul... All this is life! It is hard! It is supposed to be.

How did I get here? Hard work! Looking at things that I would have just as soon burried. When I finally disassociated myself from str. I had, as you can imagine quite a few issues. I had an inability to speak with people not associated with str and was afraid of them. I could not sleep in a room with the lights off. I tried going to college and failed miserably. I was a psych major and during the abnormal psych couse I realized I was nutty as a fruitcake. Again I was struck by the terror of being away from str. I became quite suicidal and even went so far as planning the thing out before I came to my senses. I had not been through all this to simply die.

I started seeing a therapist and doing things differently. I started purposfully placing myself in situations that str would not approve. I started becomming human again. Stopped seeing the therapist shortly and continued doing things as un-str as possible. I joined a fraternity and this got me though college and helped me meet my wife. Yep, I'm a preppie boy. I was also the oldest active member in the enitre fraternity although a couple of guys came within months of beating me. Mostly ex-military. I live on a farm, drive tractors and plant crops. I am also a computer nerd. A good one.

As for my being a staff member, so what. Go ahead and look. I am certain there is not a soul on this board who has nothing embarrassing they'd like to remain in the closet. Did I yell at kids, probably not, I get this tone in my voice that is stern in a mean way. I don't have to raise my voice. Did I ever restrain anyone while on staff, no. Did I ever get in some one's face and spit on them, no. Did I believe that I was helping, yes. Did I leave staff on bad terms, you bet. I put a note in everyones mailbox calling str a bunch of neo-nazis. I went over well so I heard.

Look away! I have nothing to hide and will not be cowed with idle threats.

As far as "trepidation of repraisals"? Give me a break and fuck off.

I suppose I should have been referring to you as Mr. Dirty throughout.

CL

[ This Message was edited by: ClayL on 2003-01-16 09:01 ]

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Tampa survivor on January 16, 2003, 12:17:00 PM

Go Clay go....you are a friend, and I look forward to meeting you again.  
Well said.
Bill

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Anonymous on January 16, 2003, 05:10:00 PM

On 2003-01-15 20:15:00, Maltese Falcon wrote: Isn't it in the public good to come forth with the truth regarding the Semblers and associates?

What the hell are you people talking about> If you read through some of Clay's posts, you'll see that he's been extremely forthcoming with the truth about the Program. Most recently, he's gotten a letter published in a local Orlando weekly stating just exactly the sentiments that you're brow-beating him for not stating. Believe me when I tell you that a fairly mainstream publication like Orlando Weekly has a whole lot more impact that the fringe publication, Indymedia!

BTW, Barb, let's see if we can get the Baltimore area affiliate to pick up the story. I'll send you the contact info by private mail. If you could get the word out to some of your friends with ties to Baltimore people, maybe we can get them interested in the story. For that matter, why not find out if the publisher has affiliates in Detroid, Cincinatti, Lake Worth, Tally, Alberta and wherever else the plague persists?

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Anonymous on January 16, 2003, 11:38:00 PM

If you are not completely ready to go all the way and do it all alone then you are not , in any respectable sense "comitted" to the fight anyway.
  If you spend so much time trying to minipulate everyone who is idle , instead of doing something your damn-self it really makes me wonder if you really care or you  just need other people envolved to legitimze YOUR style of dealing with what happened to you.  
  If everyone needs to be on board for this fight , then it is surely already doomed to failure.

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: DIRTY HARRY on January 17, 2003, 01:05:00 AM

:eek: Look away! I have nothing to hide and will not be cowed with idle threats.

As far as "trepidation of repraisals"? Give me a break and fuck off.

I suppose I should have been referring to you as Mr. Dirty throughout.

CL

You sound like you are not happy with me. Unfortunately, shit happens. So what? You know, way back when you were there in STRAIGHT, INC. you know, when a 5th phase trainee was chosen? That person would take part in treating kids and young adults drug use, while also being in a highly illegal and morally defunct organization. Those lives were permanently altered.
The just say no thing didnt happen in your case Clay. You went onto a temporary career in drug treatment of kids and young adults. Not that you were SO bad, because maybe you weren't. You have the benefit of the doubt here, I second that motion. HOWEVER, There were a lot of "red flags" so to speak in Springfield that I saw in staff members, no matter how "nice" or cool they were. Perhaps this many years later, I still perceive staff members as the "they knew what the fuck they were doing when the Jr Staffer took them aside and asked them if they wanted to be a staff member and they said SURE!" crowd. I am willing to bet that you did not stand up back then, in front of your supervisor at STRAIGHT, INC., and say "These abuses must stop!" If you had done that, then you never would have made it to the next staff level and may have even been started over. Hmmm, do you think that happened? Lord knows, you never started any one over? Hmm, well, I'll leave you alone, from now on, here on out, until the very last human on the planet takes their final breath, I know. Congrats on the publishing accomplishment.   Harry

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Tampa survivor on January 17, 2003, 06:58:00 AM

Under Harry's premise, the only people who are legit are those who did not endorse or espouse the programs way of treatment.  
Take a thought...ANY 7 stepper would be void.  In order to finish, one had to accept and endorse the programs ways and hence, SPREAD THE WORD.  ReAD THE 7th STEP.
Okay...I guess that makes me and marti and ginger legit but Clay and Mike S and any other person who "bought into" the stuff enough to graduate a program dork unfit for todays "movement". Remember how standing up for yourself was a ticket back to front row?  HMMMM...
Clay remembers what I was like the last 7 months I was in  Atlanta. He and I have spoken of it.  I think the fact that he saw what straight did to me is more important than his choice to choose a different path out than I.
The "movement" is DOOMED in its current configuration and methods.  
Find a purposeful way to effect change now, like letters,posting to news groups or editors,
or, as said by another, give us a break and bend off.
Bill H.
Non-compliant/rebel/sponge/taker/peanut butter eatin/drain/splittin fool WHO HAS GOTTEN OVER STRINGING UP MOST FORMER STAFERS AND 7 STEPPERS
ps HI MARNIE< HI TRISH

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: ClayL on January 17, 2003, 09:46:00 AM

You Said: "I am willing to bet that you did not stand up back then, in front of your supervisor at STRAIGHT, INC., and say "These abuses must stop!" If you had done that, then you never would have made it to the next staff level and may have even been started over."

Perhaps this is the reason I never made Sr. Do you even read my posts? If so, you would have noticed the line in the previous msg. where I said that in my letter of resignation I told the exec's str employeed neo-nazi tactics in their treatment. Let me go further. In this same letter I named specific exec's and called them incompetent and listed their trangressions. At the time I was just pissed, but I was right. Needless to say, I was not welcome there anymore and yep, if I had gone back it probably would have meant a refresher. Something I was just not going to do ever again.

Lord knows, you never started any one over?"

Of course I started people over. In most cases during OMR. You have the wrong impression of the actual power staff had. You remember that list the staff was always looking at? Well, during books, whick took place during afternoon rap, the Sr. and exec. staff got togather and went over I don't know what. People "earned" talk, T&R and phase changes. They also decided setbacks and startovers. This list was given to the staff leading OMR. When you were called on your fate was already decided. Nothing you did or said would change it. Had nothing to do with who was leading the OMR. During normal raps, the exec in the back of group decided things. Seven stepper's, aka graduates, were decided during Wed. Utilization Review. Again by the Sr. and Exec Staff. The Jr.'s used to be in on this, but a Jr when I was on trainee screwed this up by letting Robin B. know before Open Meeting. (She was whining about having to go to a different host home, and the Jr. told it was only for one night because she was graduating the next day.)

Now when I was in the program, I don't think it was this way. I think the Sr.'s had the power to dole out Start Over's and such, but I am not sure and I never asked one. I didn't really like them. While I was on staff, even the Sr.'s had to confer with an exec before meeting out consequences.

I'll tell you this though. I really did care about my kids and worried about them often. I, like everybody else at str was taught "tough love" and "brutal honesty". In my continuing experiences with life, I have found neither of these to be functional behaviors. The tough love and brutal honesty caused me serious problems in every realtionship I have had. I still have issues with this today.

CL

[ This Message was edited by: ClayL on 2003-01-17 06:52 ]

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: DIRTY HARRY on January 17, 2003, 12:17:00 PM

Staff and 7th stepping do not necessarily fit all into one category here Bill H. I have here a list of nearly 75 rules that 5th phase trainees were required to adhere to. I said 5th phase trainees Bill, not 5th phasers. Don't tell people out there that staff did not know what they were doing, or did not know what they were getting themselves into. Sure, some of them were worse once they made it and used that power, but it takes a bit more energy to adhere to extra 75 written rules on 5th phase trainee status don't you think? Let's not talk about the number of unwritten rules now, OK? My gooshness, that had to be over 100 rules for those trainees to adhere to. Hmmm, that's insane. oops opinion there. Working a STRAIGHT INC program as a regular phaser such as I had been, had nothing to do with doing a staff member's program. Night and day, Bill H. totally different. I have gone over so many documents about training, etc. that I find it practically IMPOSSIBLE for someone to not to know that this type of treatment was abusive and beyond reproach...AHEAD OF TIME... Do you think that "I'll try it for a while and see how it goes and it isnt so I left on bad terms" is the cure all now? It is a start, and a very good one at that. I do believe that we were all victims, some moreso than others. Now that we have learned so much about what went on inside, behind the scenes, I surmise that former staff members who are still alive would have a truckload of extra baggage to carry around. That is unfortunate, for sure. I am not blaming them per se for the whole mess. This all started before they were involved. I am merely stating facts. I know many people who have rescinded their status as a 7th stepper. Cop outs are heroes, and suicide victims paid the ultimate price. I 7th stepped and get an empty kind of feeling because of it. STRAIGHT, INC. was an elaborate and illegitimate experiment done by Mel Sembler, his wife Betty, and Miller Newton, along with some others of course. Adolescent peer type staff members, while being victims on one hand, also victimized often. Maybe these staffers had the certificate for Drug Treatment Counselor, I dont know. From what I hear, that was voluntary and most staffers did not elect to get one. Joining the movement to stop this crap from continuing would be great. To downplay it and criticize it is counterproductive at the very least. Do you have a game plan for the movement? I doubt it. This situation reminds me of this simple FACT: Motivating was bogus, did you ever motivate?  :rofl:

 Harry.

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Tampa survivor on January 17, 2003, 05:13:00 PM

Heres a few places my own posts prove you wrong AGAIN harry:
"The "movement" is DOOMED in its current configuration and methods.
Find a purposeful way to effect change now, like letters,posting to news groups or editors,
or, as said by another, give us a break and bend off.
Bill H.
Non-compliant/rebel/sponge/taker/peanut butter eatin/drain/splittin fool WHO HAS GOTTEN OVER STRINGING UP MOST FORMER STAFERS AND 7 STEPPERS
ps HI MARNIE< HI TRISH AND KRIS"
Heres another:
"The Semblers and thier ilk do not GET IT. I can not change them. I was abused as hell by STRAIGHT, but as Joey said, I sleep just fine, and I eventually worked out most of my program based bugaboos.
Knowing Miller is a discredited charlatan is grand. Pinning him to a tree would do no more for me. Everyone in the bussiness of rehab KNOWS straight was a failure...EXCEPT for those who still advocate coerced TX.
Present day coercive treatment is what we should fight, as veterans of the same treatment modality we have a unique perspective on it, and therefore, credibility."

HARRY< HAVE ANOTHER...you obviously don't read much here EXCEPT your own posts:

"I think it is more of a mission for me to help todays victims, and guide any who were with us back then and help them through thier awakening when they find this site."

Well Harry, that was just from this thread.
My game plan is well known.  OPEN YOUR EYES.
ASK Mike Sherman. Read more than todays posts.
I do wonder why my email to the survivors group has not been answered.  Hmm.  
I am sorry that some of you folks latched on to a dream.  If you remember my posts 6 months ago, I was just as angry.  
Anger should be transitional, then give way to PRACTICAL action.  
Like a letter to the editor which gets published.
Like informing a parent about other options with their mess of a teen today.
Like showing up to rescue kids at Growing Together or SAFE.
Thats the kind of "GAME PLAN" I have.  
The methods used by ISAC(conform with us or be trashed) are killing your own dream.  They certainly won't save a family today.
Bill Hadley
12/80-12/82

Title: United Nations Formal Complaint Filed by Survivors
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2003, 11:45:00 AM

Why are you quoting Mike Sherman?  Who the hell is he?  And why do you think he has the same opinions as you?  You don't need to hide behind someone else's name to voice your own opinion. And why the heck do you think he wants you posting his name on the fornits site?